[SPOILERS] AFfC General Discussion

[Culhwch]

I thought I'd set up this thread for general, spoiler-inclusive discussion of A Feast for Crows. If you haven't read it yet, beware. Do not scroll down, unless you're one of those people who shake the presents under the Christmas Tree.

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[Culhwch]

Right, some of the things I've been dying to talk about....

The Hound - do we accept that he is dead? I've been saying it for awhile now (the one thing I may have gotten right), and I saw nothing but proof of the fact in AFfC. And it just plain makes sense, I think. Is anyone holding hope that the brother on Quiet Isle was a dirty liar and that the Hound will be ressurected two books hence, in a battle against unGregor?

On the topic of the Mountain That Screams A Lot... He has obviously been 'ressurected' by Qyburn, as his offer to Cersei in her last PoV would seem to show. Why did she refuse having an undead(?) champion to fight for her innocence?

Davos. Did Manderley kill him? I doubt it. I think Manderley, wily, fat ******* that he is, was foxing with the 'Onion Knight''s head and hands and is either working with Stannis via Davos, or else is working off his own bat to get his son back, and then maybe rebel against Bolton to the north, or the Ironmen at Moat Cailin. In any case, GRRM's final note would point to Davos being alive. Unless we watch him travel to White Harbour and get the chop...

The Prince That Was Promised. I never liked the idea that Jon was the PtwP, or that it would be some progeny of Jon and Dany. I think Aemon is right. Dany is the Princess that was Promised. Whether she fulfills the prophecy - I think the Mage's words in the final chapter were foreshadowing a departure or complete failure where that prophecy was concerned.

General thoughts. I liked Brienne's chapters much more than I thought I would. Actually, they were probably my favourites, with Jaime's. I liked that Pod joined up with her, and thought the scene at the Whispers was particularly strong. And I liked Ser Hyle, too. Cersei certainly didn't get the 'other side' treatment Jaime got in ASoS - before I merely disliked her, now I think her abhorrent. She's going quite mad, I believe. Interesting to see how it all pans out. And after beginning this series hating the Lannisters root and branch, I found I really liked Ser Daven Lannister, and a number of Jaime's comrades in arms.

Well, that's probably long enough for the nonce. Apologies, but this is what comes of having no friends who adore the series as I do. Looking forward to everyone's thoughts....

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

As regards the death's issue. As much as i would love to believe that the Hound is still alive, there is precedent for GRRM killing off 'major' characters (as we all know). I think the Hound is dead - he has too recogniseable a "face" to not be spotted otherwise.
Gregor & Davos - GRRM seems to want us to think that both of these are dead (and playing Devil's advocate for a moment, they could both be dead!). If Gregor is alive, would that make Qyburn a Red priest? So far they're the only ones apart from the Others who can sustain life past endurance. I can't think that Oberyn didn't use the most deadly poison he could when he fought Gregor.
As for Davos, he is a likeable, honest character so he could be dead too! Honest men die when the Game of Thrones is played!

For me, although I enjoyed the POVs and story in AFfC, I greatly felt the absence of Jon & Tyrion in this book. It was very good to see more of Dorne however and more of the riverlands & Eyrie.

One thing which fascinated me was the change which has begun with Sansa. She's starting to 'become' Alayne in her thoughts, which may not bode well for the Starks.

What does everyone else think about the rise of the Militant Orders of the Faith? I feel this will have major repercussions for the next few books. After all, they've already shown that they're more powerful than the Queen in her own capital city!

 

[Florian the Fool]

Quick scribble while have the chance.

Is the Hound dead? It grieves me to say that I think he is, yes.

Has Gregor been reanimated? Only if Qyburn has glued someone else's head onto him, as Gregor's massive noggin (not something easily faked) is on it's way to Dorne.

Can someone please tell me, is Brienne dead? Am I being unduly naive in thinking that chapter wasn't conclusive?

I think the militant orders are going to be a major factor in upcoming books. As soon as Cersei did it, I thought to myself "Oh boy, is that ever going to bite you in the bum"

Cersei = raving loony. Mad as a bicycle.

 

[Culhwch]

If Gregor is alive, would that make Qyburn a Red priest? So far they're the only ones apart from the Others who can sustain life past endurance. I can't think that Oberyn didn't use the most deadly poison he could when he fought Gregor.

Not necessarily. We don't know that Gregor ever died, to be brought back to life. Qyburn may have prolonged his life and 'saved' him via other methods he had learnt in his travels. Also - what was he doing with the girls Cersei kept letting him have? Live dissections, or something more sinister?

It was very good to see more of Dorne however and more of the riverlands & Eyrie.

I like the Dorne parts, too. The final revelations - that Arianne was meant to wed Viserys, and Quentyn (sp?) is on his way to court Dany - didn't see that coming. It seems that Prince Doran has had his hand in a few pots regarding recent events in the Seven Kingdoms. Which casts a shadow on Littlefinger's role in it all, I think. I've always thought Littlefinger more opportunistic than creative, as it were, and many of the things he claims responsibility for may have originated with Doran....

One thing which fascinated me was the change which has begun with Sansa. She's starting to 'become' Alayne in her thoughts, which may not bode well for the Starks.

I was more surprised that Littlefinger managed to hold the Vale, more or less. But I think Sansa is still a Stark at heart...

What does everyone else think about the rise of the Militant Orders of the Faith? I feel this will have major repercussions for the next few books. After all, they've already shown that they're more powerful than the Queen in her own capital city!

Don't like 'em. Cersei's a moron, and not a tenth the ruler she thought she was. Strife and discord are all they will bring. Especially with Fire Lord's faith spreading throughout the heart of the kingdom....

 

[Culhwch]

Has Gregor been reanimated? Only if Qyburn has glued someone else's head onto him, as Gregor's massive noggin (not something easily faked) is on it's way to Dorne.

Definitely faked. Don't know who the poor, unfortunate sod was, but there had to be someone of a size, if not quite equal. A skull lacking flesh may appear larger than it did in real life....?

Can someone please tell me, is Brienne dead? Am I being unduly naive in thinking that chapter wasn't conclusive?

I heartily doubt it. She shouted out a word, after all.... But will she kill Jaime? I must say, unCat's a bitch...

Cersei = raving loony. Mad as a bicycle.

My oath she is.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Definitely faked. Don't know who the poor, unfortunate sod was, but there had to be someone of a size, if not quite equal. A skull lacking flesh may appear larger than it did in real life....?

Eeek! Hodor, Hodor!

p.s. hmm, would Brienne have changed her mind to save her friends? Tricky.
Plus, at the rate she's getting cut up, she'll make poor ol' Sandor look handsome!

 

[Florian the Fool]

But I think Sansa is still a Stark at heart...

But Sansa lost her wolf...

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Sansa quickly learning all the devious tricks Littlefinger is teaching her and eventually becoming a better player herself. At which point she will dispense with him by some clever device, consolidate her own power and eventually find herself in opposition whoever turns up to sort out the mess the Seven Kingdoms have been left in (which could be Dany, Tyrion, Jon or all three).

Sansa may become the next Cersei, only clever instead of bonkers.

 

[cacotopos]

I was looking forward to Samwell being taught at the Citadel all through the book, but it never materialized. I understand and appreciate what happened instead though, it was Sam growing up i suppose. It makes me wonder, though, whether the Sam/Citadel chapters will be in the next book (as some sort of "well Sam's from the North so technically he belongs in DwD") or whether we'll have to wait 'til after that one.

I enjoyed the Dorne chapters, but they felt a little tacked-on, as if they were used to bolster the book because there wasn't enough PoVs for the South. Although there probably would have been Dorne chapters anyway. Yhey just felt clunky and forced whilst still being cool and relevant.

I really liked Damphair's character, very well written.

It's very interesting to see Jon changed, what little we saw anyway, and i loved the way Aemon was paid respect when he died.

I'm gonna be real interested to see Victarion trying to win Dany's hand for himself, and also the intriguing master from the Citadel going to see her.

 

[neal]

i havnt read this book and it may be good but the list on this web site is pointless banks harrison this is sci fi and if its fantasy china wossis name but this list is wrong

 

[Dolorous Edd]

/begin rant


STOP DELETING MY F***ING POSTS! YOU BLOODY EVIL FORUM!!!!! TWICE!!!



/rant over



Ah, that's better. Severely cut down replies i'm afraid. CBA doing them again.

As regards the death's issue. As much as i would love to believe that the Hound is still alive, there is precedent for GRRM killing off 'major' characters (as we all know). I think the Hound is dead - he has too recognisable a "face" to not be spotted otherwise.

I suspect he is dead, but I have a sneaking suspicion he may not be. It all hangs on the wording the man who buried him uses. He repeatedly says that "the hound" is dead. But the only time he says "sandor clegane", he says he is "at rest". He says he buried "the hound" and then placed his helm atop the grave to mark it. I think their may only be armour and clothes in that grave, the symbols of the man sandor clegane once was. Perhaps.

Gregor & Davos - GRRM seems to want us to think that both of these are dead (and playing Devil's advocate for a moment, they could both be dead!). If Gregor is alive, would that make Qyburn a Red priest? So far they're the only ones apart from the Others who can sustain life past endurance. I can't think that Oberyn didn't use the most deadly poison he could when he fought Gregor.

Qyburn mentions that although basilisk poison usually kills nearly instantly, by stopping the heart, in gregors case it was "thickened" somehow to slow it down, thus causing the maximum amount of pain for the victim. I don't think Qyburn's "cured" gregor of the poison; I reckon he's merely stopped it from reaching the heart. gregor's still in agony! He always will be! He was a raving, unhinged lunatic beforehand; think what he'll be like now!

As for Davos, he is a likeable, honest character so he could be dead too! Honest men die when the Game of Thrones is played!

He isn't dead. Martin seems to have taken great care that the split didn't "spoil" events in ADWD, and the "death" of Davos is the only time I noticed an event being prematurely revealed in the entire book. And the way it was revealed. A single paragraph in a chapter, a second-hand report from a letter. It was not crucial to the scene; it would have been so easy for martin to simply remove that paragraph from the text, with no effect on the scene. So why didn't he? Because he didn't want to.

For me, although I enjoyed the POVs and story in AFfC, I greatly felt the absence of Jon & Tyrion in this book. It was very good to see more of Dorne however and more of the riverlands & Eyrie.

Ditto, I loved it - but I missed all me fave characters! The stuff in dorne was particularly fine. Doran Martell! What a devious git! I love it!

 

[Dolorous Edd]

One thing that fascinated me was the change that has begun with Sansa. She's starting to 'become' Alayne in her thoughts, which may not bode well for the Starks.

Sansa's become a much more interesting character now, it will be good to see how she develops in future volumes. I predict she will become an adept player of the game. And I don't think she'll forget her heritage.

What does everyone else think about the rise of the Militant Orders of the Faith? I feel this will have major repercussions for the next few books. After all, they've already shown that they're more powerful than the Queen in her own capital city!

These guys + that frighteningly zealous high septon are going to cause so much trouble! It'll be the Andals vs the First men all over again! Just what the realm needs, a bunch of fanatical zealots trying to impose their theological beliefs on a populace who frankly have far more important problems ahead.

Can someone please tell me, is Brienne dead? Am I being unduly naive in thinking that chapter wasn't conclusive?

Dunno, hope not. Doubt it.



P.S. I bloody hated Catelyn in the earlier books, i fecking loathe the bitch now.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Wow! Been quoted to death by DE!
I didn't necessarily believe a lot of what I posted.
F'instance, I don't believe that Davos is really dead as I think Davos has a much larger role to come in the future books - I can see him actually killing Stannis for the good of the realm and then becoming Dany's 'Hand' at the end. Well, in my "happy ever after" version anyway

If Gregor is still alive (as seems to be the consensus), I'm just wondering there's anyone left who can kill him now? Loras looks completely screwed (surprised there's not been more of an outcry about that, actually), Sandor is dead (or maybe taken holy orders, if that's what DE is implying?) and the Kingsguard is a shadow of what it should be (but at least we're starting to get a few vacancies ).

Btw, what are the odds that, presuming Cersei gets replaced as Regent, that the new High Septon will take the reins rather than anyone else? After all, pretty much all of Cersei's Lannister support has been sent away and her choice of weak Hand & small council means that, without the Kettleblacks to help her, there is a considerable power vacuum at Kings Landing.
Actually, assuming the High Septon forces Cersei to confess the king is a product of incest (and thus, an 'abomination'), the High Septon could call for his execution? After all, only 3 (I think) Kingsguard are protecting the King. Ser Boros Blunt, Oswald Kettleblack and Ser Meryn "foodtaster" Trant.

 

[RWHamel]

Did anyone take note that the brother digging the grave on the Quite Island was lame or had a limp, and Sandor was wounded in the thigh at the Inn in ASOS.

 

[Culhwch]

Did anyone take note that the brother digging the grave on the Quite Island was lame or had a limp, and Sandor was wounded in the thigh at the Inn in ASOS.

Yeah, I thought this too - the man was mentioned as being quite large, but then the Hound is grossly disfigured, remember, so unless the Head Brother had a really good salve....

Loras looks completely screwed (surprised there's not been more of an outcry about that, actually)

I never considered him a chance of dying, actually. I think the reports of his injuries might be overstated. Perhaps it's all part of the Tyrell plan. Cersei was becoming suspicious, so he trots off to Dragonstone, some other poor sod cops a cauldron of oil, they pretend it's Loras, Loras goes off with Redwyne's fleet to put the sword to the Ironmen and lead yet another host back to King's Landing to take the throne for Margaery by force. I doubt it, very bloody unlikely, but I thought I'd put it out there, anyways....

On a totally different topic, it was good to see Dolorous Edd (the character, not the poster) back, too, if only briefly. One of my favourite lines, his words to Sam that the ship wasn't likely to sink as he wasn't aboard, pure Edd class...

 

[Culhwch]

i havnt read this book and it may be good but the list on this web site is pointless banks harrison this is sci fi and if its fantasy china wossis name but this list is wrong

Sorry? Does anyone know what this guy's about?

 

[Lord of Winterfell]

I think it VERY unlikely that the Hound is dead. Here are some points that would argue against it:

1) No way that GRRM would kill a popular character off-screen - and dying of a fever no less. Not GRRM's style.

2) The big gravedigger on Quiet Isle is probably the Hound. He was a large man who was lame in his leg. Also, the Hound's horse Stranger was in the stable. It is common knowledge that no man can handle this animal. How the hell could a bunch of monks tame this beast? One of the monks lost an ear to the animal. Also, the gravedigger reached down to pat Dog... this is obviously a clever trick by GRRM... of course a man named the Hound might be fond of dogs. And those of you who think that the Hound, because of his facial scars would be easily noticed, remember that all the monks on the isle wear a scarf over their face to symbolize the fact that they have all taken vows of silence.
There are a few more clues that the Hound is not only alive, but is probably the big gravedigger.

I'm telling you, the Hound lives... although he may be a changed man.

 

[Culhwch]

I'm telling you, the Hound lives... although he may be a changed man.

Hmmm. You argue a good case, LoW. Then there's the fact that I've been saying he's dead for the last five years, so that would also point to his being alive...

 

[Culhwch]

...and also the intriguing master from the Citadel going to see her.

Yeah. I can't decide whether Marwyn is one of the good guys or the bad guys - as much as anyone can be either, in Martin's world. That he is taking Aemon's words seriously, and heading off to help Dany (or so we assume) seems to put him more in the good camp. But from what we've learnt of the order of Maesters from Luwin in particular, as well as Pycelle and others, he is very 'out there' - almost on a par with Qyburn. And what is going on with Pate the Pig Boy? Did he die and was he 'reborn', or has he merely been the victim of some brain-washing sorcery? Something not right there.....

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

And what is going on with Pate the Pig Boy? Did he die and was he 'reborn', or has he merely been the victim of some brain-washing sorcery? Something not right there.....

I kind of construed it as A Faceless Man being put into the Citadel (not sure about the reasons). A bit like the trick Jaqen (sp?) pulled.