Christian Fantasy: Lewis, Williams, and ???

[The Blackfish]

Grrrrrrr, grinding my teeth ....
I have just had my first experience of my post being lost in cyber-space ... now I know what everyone else gets so frustrated about.

I will try again

Since I'm not all that familiar with any religion beyond the basics, it is easy for me to miss these types of things and as long as the story is still good, I don't have a problem with it.


If any of them are intending to convert anyone, they must realize that they are 1) too subtle and 2) using stories that are designed to take the person out of a 'reality sphere'. Seems rather silly and harmless to me. If it all happens accidentally due to the author's beliefs, that shouldn't be a problem either - if the author didn't notice, the reader is less likely to.

In other words, preach at me all you like, just give me a good story to go with it!!

When an author includes their own beliefs within the story they write, I doubt that they expect their readers to become "converted" from the subtle way in which they have done so. Rather, they hope to help the reader identify and understand some of these concepts so that when this religion is encountered in the "real world", readers will be more sympathetic towards it.

For example, a writer may include an account of creation in their story, but change it slightly from the Biblical account to better suit the fantasy world it is set in. Then, if the reader is exposed to the Creation story, he or she can say "I've heard this before ..." and is more likely to listen to other teachings as well.
Or, a writer may subtley include personal opinions or interpretations of their religion that may not be favourably looked at by the greater heirachy, thus avoiding outright confrontation whilst seeking to influence the average person.

littlemissattitude, I have read the first two books of the Left Behind series and could not get any further, not so much because of religious content, but because they were so badly written! They were written in a B-grade Mills and Boone type style, with no real thought or character developement. If you like writers of the calibre of O S Card, I wouldn't bother with Left Behind!

 

[dwndrgn]

For example, a writer may include an account of creation in their story, but change it slightly from the Biblical account to better suit the fantasy world it is set in. Then, if the reader is exposed to the Creation story, he or she can say "I've heard this before ..." and is more likely to listen to other teachings as well.
Or, a writer may subtley include personal opinions or interpretations of their religion that may not be favourably looked at by the greater heirachy, thus avoiding outright confrontation whilst seeking to influence the average person.

I can perhaps see where you are coming from here...because I read about dragons and elves, if somehow, somewhere they were truly discovered, I'd be much more likely to understand and believe. That makes sense. However, when dealing with religion, I feel it is much more complex. I believe that because we read of so many different religions in the fantasy genre(converted and changed and just made up), we have a broader view of them and are much more likely to believe some sort of melange of them all instead of just one. Bits of this religion or that may have more personal truth for us so we may end up creating our own set of beliefs that is more of a melting pot of all the beliefs we've come into contact with.

On a different note, to me, for an author to be felt to be 'preachy' is one who is actively trying to force their beliefs onto me. That I don't like, and it's why I've stayed away from that 'Left Behind' gobbledegook. It smacks of cultism to me and I just don't feel the need to read it. I can't say that I've actually come across a genre author that I felt was trying this.

I say that Spider Robinson sort of does this but mostly he's just trying to promote ideas I feel need to be promoted - open mindedness, kindness to strangers, taking care of friends and family and the like.

 

[The Blackfish]

On a different note, to me, for an author to be felt to be 'preachy' is one who is actively trying to force their beliefs onto me. That I don't like, and it's why I've stayed away from that 'Left Behind' gobbledegook.

Yeah, I find what you say very interesting. From my understanding and observation, the Left Behind books have been bought and read at an exponetial rate, but from what you and others in previous posts have said, it would seem that these books are only "preaching to the converted."
This then says a lot about a style that places more emphasis on preaching doctrine that entertaining readers. I would hazard a guess that the LB success has been largely because the books have been marketed to people's fear - "Is the rapture coming? What will happen if I get Left Behind!!?" Having read some of them, IMO the doctrine is very narrow and does not give the reader a wider view of interpreting prophesy. Instead it only shows what the writer whats people to believe.

I don't have a problem with personal beliefs in stories, but not at the expense of alienating readers. Otherwise, what's the point of having them in the book at all?

 

[Rosemary]

I don't know how relevant it is to this thread but there is a subgerne classified in Fantasy as Christain Fantasy. I remember being involved in a discussion thread on this on another forum but can't seem to find that anymore...

If I dig it up maybe we could have a dicussion on Christain Fantasy?....

There was a thread started at our other site on Christian Fantasy I believe Gollum. Bill or Moneybags might remember it.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I must say that because I am interested in literary nuts-and-bolts as well as the use of symbols, I'd love it if someone would describe how the Left Behind and Shadowmancer books insert their doctrine. I'm under the impression that Shadowmancer is a fantastic battle between good and evil, with themes and symbols familiar to Christians, roughly along the lines of Narnia, but perhaps a bit more heavy-handed. Could someone correct me if I'm wrong and explain what the books really are like? And I have only the vaguest idea about the Left Behind books.

 

[chrispenycate]

While we're doing Christian, how about James Blish (a case of concience, the devils day)? Not quite fantasy, not really scince fiction- and probably a bit old fashioned now. Many, many of the horror/urban fantasy novels use the christian superstructure but few ask questions about it- that's just the good/evil world is organised.

 

[angrybuddhist]

If you want to find out who influenced Lewis and someof the others check out George MacDonalds Lilith. Definitely Christian leanings.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Yes, of course, how could I forget MacDonald? Although in his children's books the message is often hidden with such subtlety that it's hard to distinguish it from the generally moralizing tone of most of the other stories for children written at that time.

Moving a little closer to our time, this reminds me that Elizabeth Goudge is another Christian fantasy author, at least in children's books like The Little White Horse and Linnets and Valerians (much of which takes place in a vicarage).

She also seems to have the distinction of being the only fantasy author ever praised by J. K. Rowling.

 

[Morreion]

I think Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings is definitely infused with such religious/Catholic themes as free will, faith, and not judging others (re Frodo and Gandalf's discussion of Gollum in book I).

Don't forget Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow and Children of God. I found The Sparrow to be fascinating, blending science fiction and faith very well (coming from an agnostic reader's perspective here).

 

[Prefx]

If my memory serves me correctly, the theme of hope is brought up in Lord of the Rings on quite a few occasions; not to the extent of Narnia (never liked those books for some reason ), but enough to make me wonder if Tolkien was a man close to religion (And a personal God).

After all, Tolkien lost all but one of his closest friends during WW1. Such events lead men into a path; for him, it was religion (as it seems).

I don't really enjoy Christian fantasy, for the most part. That has to do with the fact I disagree with many ideals of Christianity. I can bare through and even enjoy Christian literature, don't get me wrong, but when the morals are all too obvious and the writing sounds like a preaching message, I become turned off.

However, the same holds true for almost any kind of book, no matter if I disagree with the messages or not. The only difference would be socialpolitical books (I hope that's the correct term), where the whole genre is based off of preaching ideas.

 

[hedgeknight]

I must say that because I am interested in literary nuts-and-bolts as well as the use of symbols, I'd love it if someone would describe how the Left Behind and Shadowmancer books insert their doctrine. I'm under the impression that Shadowmancer is a fantastic battle between good and evil, with themes and symbols familiar to Christians, roughly along the lines of Narnia, but perhaps a bit more heavy-handed. Could someone correct me if I'm wrong and explain what the books really are like? And I have only the vaguest idea about the Left Behind books.

The Left Behind books are based upon the second coming of Christ and the theology of The Rapture (and all the mess that entails).

Never heard of Shadowmancer.
-g-

 

[the_faery_queen]

i have to say, tho i haven't read lord of the rings (the horror of me!) i never saw religious anything in lion, witch wardrobe, not until yers later. but being raised jewish, i probably wouldn't. williams christian elements were obvous, the one god, the tree like the cross, and so on. even the christian esque names people had.

the shadowmancer dude was an ex priest, apparantly. and sour about jk rowling too (well he claimed that potter was gay, that sounds sour to me!)

but none of this is helpful to the topic, just thought i would share some things that people probably already know!

but for me, seeing christian elements, unless it is obvious, would be impossible. i have NO idea about that religion (or most others, including the one i was raised in) at all!

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

There was some discussion of Tolkien at the beginning of the thread, Prefx. He was a devout Catholic from childhood.

Morreion, I wouldn't have thought of the Mary Doria Russell books, because they are science fiction, but they probably do belong in this discussion. I've looked at her books at least a dozen times at the library, considered checking them out, but never did. Could you tell us more about them?

Which Williams are you referring to, faery_queen? The Williams in the header is Charles Williams, but it sounds like you are talking about Tad Williams. The religion in Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn seems to be a combination of Medieval Christianity and Norse Paganism, with a tiny bit of Ancient Egyptian thrown in for good measure. I don't think that it's there for the same reason as religion comes up in some of the other books we are talking about, though. Which is to say that it's more because the author thinks something of the sort intrinsic to the quasi-medieval, quasi-European world he is trying (well, brilliantly succeeding, in my opinion) to represent in his story, and not so much because it's inseparable from his own personal world view.

 

[GOLLUM]

The Left Behind books are based upon the second coming of Christ and the theology of The Rapture (and all the mess that entails).

Never heard of Shadowmancer.
-g-

Well I've only skimmed through Shadowmancer which is the first of a seriers of books to be produced by GP Taylor.

It looked pretty preachy to me and poorly written but here's some snippets from what appears to have been a general reaction to the book by the majority of readers. In short, not great...

Original fantasy is hard to come by, and "Shadowmancer" doesn't improve the situation. It's your basic good vs. evil-forces-stirring-up-Armageddon story, with a heavy layer of religious allegory. Taylor manages to dredge up a few interesting mythical creatures, and a solid Yorkshire setting, but they're drowned out by the trite writing.

No way is religious fantasy a bad thing in itself -- after all, C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien rooted their stories partly in religion. But Taylor's brand of Christianity is very watered-down, very generic, very politically-correct and VERY preachy. He lays this bland religious goo on so thickly that it's hard to read without feeling twitchy and uncomfortable. "Riathamus [God] stands at the door of your life and knocks. If you hear his call and answer him he will share your life and live with you always," Raphah announces. It's like he's reading from a pamphlet.

Nor can you expect much in the way of character development; everyone is a symbol rather than a person. Demurral is a cackling, mustache-twirling devil-worshiper. Saintly Raphah is as dull as the proverbial ditchwater, and so are the plucky kids who accompany him. There are no shades of grey here. A flawed person either is evil, or he's just waiting to be redeemed. "Shadowmancer" is packaged as a thrilling dark fantasy for kids. But under the skin is a lame religious thriller with tepid writing and bland characters.

The basic underlying concept is simple - it's Riathamus (God) versus Pyratheon (the Devil), each with a couple of gophers to assist them with the good old battle between good and evil. Unfortunately, it's not very well written, and you can't be sure if the author is writing for children or adults. The storyline is definitely childish, but some of the concepts are adult.

Anyone who loves C.S. Lewis is sure to hate this book and find it almost impossible to read. I forced myself to read some of it in an effort to discover why it became a best seller. It is not only very poorly written, very amateurish, but the feeling, despite the preaching and the biblical quotes, is dark. Please don't buy this book for your children.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Sometime after I asked those questions about the Shadowmancer series, back in early November, I made the mistake of bringing the first book home from the library and attempting to read it.

Until you posted the above, Gollum, I had somehow succeeded in blotting the entire experience out of my memory. Now that you've (shudder) brought it all back to me, I have to agree with all those comments about the general clumsiness of the writing.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

On the subject of Lewis, I came across this article on his wife in this Sunday's book section of the San Francisco Chronicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/01/RVGQFGC5DO1.DTL

In which it appears that Joy Davidman Gresham Lewis was quite an interesting and accomplished individual in her own right.

I knew some of the information in the article, but not such details as the fact that she was a highly-regarded poet back in the 1930's.

 

[GOLLUM]

On the subject of Lewis, I came across this article on his wife in this Sunday's book section of the San Francisco Chronicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/01/RVGQFGC5DO1.DTL

In which it appears that Joy Davidman Gresham Lewis was quite an interesting and accomplished individual in her own right.

I knew some of the information in the article, but not such details as the fact that she was a highly-regarded poet back in the 1930's.

Yes that's a very good article you've posted here.

I knew a little about her and that she was a highly articulate and capable person but not all of her writing achievements albeit I did have some awareness of her poetry and that she'ld recieved a no. of literary awards. I enjoyed the film Shadowlands quite a bit even if some of the things depicted in the movie were not historically accurate.

I didn't realise her husband was a noted author though, that was a revelation for me, so thanks for that particular tidbit...

 

[the_faery_queen]

tad williams yeah, didn't know there was another. but as i said, not christian, so that is all i can regonise is really obvious things!

shadowmancer dude self published, and then got accepted by a bigger company, like the ergaon kid. my business advisior always used him as a, you can self publish and make it to, exmple. whcih would explain his sour grapes toward rowling. he sid potter was gay, which is fairly sour to me. i mean, what the?! what does it matter if potter is gay? and what right does he have to say it? but i think it is aimed at kids, as he gave this talk in a school, and i can't imagine them asking someone who writes adult books to do that. teh fact that no one i know has read them also kinda speaks to me that they are more kids books. tho saying that, most people i know have read potter.

for me, if a writer is kinda sucky as a person, i won't read them! reputation is important. which means i am doomed, cos i imagine i have a reptuation as an agressive ranter!

 

[GOLLUM]

for me, if a writer is kinda sucky as a person, i won't read them! reputation is important. which means i am doomed, cos i imagine i have a reptuation as an agressive ranter!

Not necessarily. I for one enjoy your rants.....

 

[littlemissattitude]

Thank you for the link, Kelpie. That was an interesting article.