A question for Dune and WOT fans

Princess Ivy

Princess Ivy

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when i read the wheel of time series (jordan), i remember being told it was based on the LOTR middle earth. at the time (i stopped at book 7 btw) i got out the LOTR books and made an abortive effort to read them. to cut a long story short, i couldn't find any parrellels.
I'm however re-reading Dune (the first one) and am noting quite a few similarities between the asedi and bene geserit. and between the Kwazat Hadderacht and Ran Al Thorn, in that both are the only male user's of a feminine brand of magic. also that the rullers of the orders of both orders are not that keen on some bloke tramping on their turf (unless he is under strict control)
my question therefore is, did i get it wrong in remembering LOTR as basis? was it in fact Arakis?
 
Yeah, I sort of got the same impression especially since there was a quote at the back of the book by a reviewer saying 'Jordan has taken the world Tolkien revealed and bla bla bla'. I can't really remember. Anyway, when I started reading Eye of the World I also thought it was loosely based on Middle Earth.

In fact your notes are quite true now that I think of it. Although comments are made about male Aes Sedai going mad with saidin. Also, the parts in the Aiel Waste where Rand has to journey to Rhuiedean and the Wise Women advising him sounds very much like a scene out of Dune (hint hint). I think Jordan used Arakis and Middle Earth loosely, blending them in together. Probably a little of Faerun also with cities like Tear and Illian.
 
Actually, the "influences" swap a little way through the series. Initially, LotR was undoubtedly the biggest influence. The Eye of the World was more or less Lord of the Rings, but written in a more accessible style. After that, he moved much closer to Dune.
In the Eye of the World, the world was based on Middle-Earth. By the time we were seeing the Aiel wastes, the world was mainy Dune. Now it's a curious fusion of the two, with Dune on the East and Middle Earth in the West and North.

At book 7, you'd still only just have been out of the Dune influence, the LotR influence was long past by then, except in the basic fantasy influences (unkillable characters, quests etc).
 
In terms world building and influence , Wheel of Time is closer to Tolkien than Dune.
 
No one knows why Tolkien didn't like Dune, though everyone thinks they know. He may have just hated head hopping, or the conceit of science fiction, or all the parts that were quickly summarized, or he didn't like Arabs and Islam, or he doesn't like the many odd names, or he didn't like the depictions of rape and torture.
 
Tolkien grew up on late 19th C/early 20th C literature, so I wouldn't expect him to care much for a cutting-edge modern novel like Dune was in its time, any more than I'd expect someone like Extollager to be thrilled about The Hunger Games. :)

As for Wheel of Time being similar to Lord of the Rings - I thought it was pretty well known that the first WoT book was purposefully structured to be like the first book of LOTR. I'm sure we've had a discussion about that before.
 
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I think it's not so much Dune being cutting edge but as part of the modern world:

The Lord of the Rings is about small people from humble backgrounds facing dangers to protect what they love. Dune is about aristocrats killing aristocrats and using the little people as cannon fodder.

The Lord of the Rings is optimistic and ends with the true king being restored to the throne and ushering in a golden age. Dune is pessimistic and ends with a tyrant being replaced by another tyrant.
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Tolkien experienced that world depicted in Dune through the First World War, which is why his orcs may be seen in light of industrialization.
 
I think it's easy to completely underestimate the difference in writing styles between the early 20th century and later 20th century. Someone growing up reading the former is unlikely to engage well with the latter, simply because the change in style goes completely against the personal taste they've developed. Topic and theme won't even enter into it.

But, anyway, this is a topic about Wheel of Time - Tolkien has his own dedicated board for discussions on his writing. :)
 
Brian G Turner said:
I think it's easy to completely underestimate the difference in writing styles between the early 20th century and later 20th century. Someone growing up reading the former is unlikely to engage well with the latter, simply because the change in style goes completely against the personal taste they've developed.
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Well, and vice versa. Those, like myself, who were born at or around the middle of the century may find it perfectly easy (as readers) to move between styles, and sometimes wonder what others find so difficult.
 
I think Possum was referring to content and not writing styles.
 
Tolkien was a huge fan of Isaac Asimov, it should be noted, so it's interesting that Herbert (arguably a better wordsmith who wrote with greater depth) was not so much to his liking.

Tolkien was also friends with, and to some extent sponsored the career of Mary Renault, whose books did not shy away from violent themes and contained significant allusions to homosexuality (Renault herself was openly lesbian - although she was wary of using that term - and in a lifelong relationship with another woman from the late 1930s onwards, fairly openly for the time). I think the suggestion that Tolkien disliked books for simply being new or dark or having objectional content does not entirely stack up. The Silmarillion is dark as hell, and features incest and more violence than Lord of the Rings.
 
Werthead said:
Tolkien was a huge fan of Isaac Asimov, it should be noted, so it's interesting that Herbert (arguably a better wordsmith who wrote with greater depth) was not so much to his liking.

Tolkien was also friends with, and to some extent sponsored the career of Mary Renault, whose books did not shy away from violent themes and contained significant allusions to homosexuality (Renault herself was openly lesbian - although she was wary of using that term - and in a lifelong relationship with another woman from the late 1930s onwards, fairly openly for the time). I think the suggestion that Tolkien disliked books for simply being new or dark or having objectional content does not entirely stack up. The Silmarillion is dark as hell, and features incest and more violence than Lord of the Rings.
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We have no idea what his real objection is. That was my point - any little thing could have bothered Tolkien, including the way Herbert adapted real words in his novel. There is no way to check off every possible objection until only one remains - so it is a little silly to keep putting words in Tolkien's mouth about why he didn't like Dune.
 
I think Tolkien wasn't referring to "dark" elements but themes, which is why Silmarillion ends with the hopeful story of LOTR.
 
To answer the original question...

I don't think there was any one base for The Wheel of Time. Playing spot the inspiration is like playing whack-a-mole.

I'd agree with the idea that there is more Dune DNA than LotR DNA. The book consciously apes LotR at the beginning, but quickly runs away from that when given a chance. The use of the Aiel and the Aes Sedai do huge amounts to define the series.

You can also find heavy riffing on about half a dozen mythologies, a few D&Disms, a certain amount of autobiographical input as a southern boy sent off to 'Nam, and then you've got to consider whether you can find his favourite authors - John D MacDonald, Jane Austen, Robert Heinlein, Louis L'Amour, Charles Dickens, Mark Twain - in there too. You probably can if you know what to look at.

Jordan threw a kitchen sink at The Wheel of Time, and I rather think that's part of the appeal.
 
I think he didn't like it because he had an optimistic view of life.
 
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