A question for Dune and WOT fans

[Brian G Turner]

I think Tolkien wasn't referring to "dark" elements but themes, which is why Silmarillion ends with the hopeful story of LOTR.

I think he didn't like it because he had an optimistic view of life.

LOTR is one of the most dark and depressing stories I've ever read - everyone fails, then they sail off to die.

 

[paeng]

LOTR is one of the most dark and depressing stories I've ever read - everyone fails, they then sail off to die.

Mordor falls apart and the protagonists are triumphant.

 

[Peppa]

When I started reading Wheel of Time, the first book seemed very Tolkien-influenced. Strange monsters attack a small settlement, a group of young people leave it and set off on a long journey under the guidance of a great wizard (this time it's a pretty woman, not an old man) and an experienced warrior.

Then Robert Jordan's books became more and more like Frank Herbert's Dune, but more because of the plot rather than the presence of the desert in those books. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the plot of the male protagonist using the predominantly female magic is very similar to Dune, and the Aes Sedai are suspiciously similar to the Bene Gesserit.

I would define the Wheel of Time books as Frank Herbert dressed up in old Tolkien clothes. The plot is certainly closer to Dune, and the world-building is closer to Tolkien. Of course, there are also influences from other authors, and even realities. For example, the structure of Aes Sedai has always reminded me of the Vatican, and Red Ajah - the Inquisition. If that's true, then copying the structure of a group whose members were called witches, after the Vatican's ierarhy is one of the greatest jokes in world literature.

 

[paeng]

Interesting points about Dune here in light of the recent movie version:

What do you think about the decision to avoid certain problematic traits of the Harkonnens in "Dune: Part Two" for modern audiences?

Johan Torres's answer: When I saw the first half of Dune, I was extremely skeptical about the aesthetic choices they made for the Harkonnens. The severe asceticism seemed to be rather contradictory to their nature as extremely corrupt wealth hoarders. It felt like subtraction, without any counter...

www.quora.com

Some of the most amazing things in the entire duology.

Frank Herbert was an extreme homophobe who rejected his son Bruce for being gay. He wouldn’t even let Bruce see his mother on her deathbed, according to Brian Herbert. Frank Herbert’s homophobia seeps into the Dune novels a surprising amount. There’s a whole conversation in God Emperor of Dune about how homosexuals are disgusting perverts, but that might be channeled into being good soldiers.

 

[Peppa]

I don't remember this conversation. Still, it is very upsetting to learn that such a famous writer was so cruel to his own son.

 

[Swank]

I don't remember this conversation. Still, it is very upsetting to learn that such a famous writer was so cruel to his own son.

The conversation is the Duncan Idaho ghola, just back to life from 3000 years earlier, upset that two women were kissing. The Moneo tells him to get over it.

Dune gets criticism for having the Baron be gay. But he isn't gay, he's a child molester. Feyd is a rapist that prefers adult women. No character in Dune comments on how the Baron being gay is repulsive, instead focusing on how being a murdering sadist makes him repulsive. Whatever Frank's relationship with his son Bruce was, we don't know the full extent of their conflict and if it was entirely based on sexuality or other disagreements about life choices. So the homophobe label seems to largely be a product of outside views of his relationship with one person, and clumping sexual violence in with being gay - as if they are obviously connected (which is a homophobic trope in itself).

Most SF books have no gay characters, and the only real commentary we have from Frank on the subject is how Moneo seems like the rational party, disapproving of Duncan's disgust. If Frank wanted to make a negative statement about gays, he certainly had many opportunities to depict antagonists that way, and did not.

 

[paeng]

What's also fascinating is that it's a part of the books that film makers want to avoid.

 

[Swank]

Because it is already out there that it supposedly is homophobia. Doesn't matter if it is or not.

Nor is it particularly important to the story.

 

[Peppa]

The conversation is the Duncan Idaho ghola, just back to life from 3000 years earlier, upset that two women were kissing. The Moneo tells him to get over it.

Dune gets criticism for having the Baron be gay. But he isn't gay, he's a child molester. Feyd is a rapist that prefers adult women. No character in Dune comments on how the Baron being gay is repulsive, instead focusing on how being a murdering sadist makes him repulsive. Whatever Frank's relationship with his son Bruce was, we don't know the full extent of their conflict and if it was entirely based on sexuality or other disagreements about life choices. So the homophobe label seems to largely be a product of outside views of his relationship with one person, and clumping sexual violence in with being gay - as if they are obviously connected (which is a homophobic trope in itself).

Most SF books have no gay characters, and the only real commentary we have from Frank on the subject is how Moneo seems like the rational party, disapproving of Duncan's disgust. If Frank wanted to make a negative statement about gays, he certainly had many opportunities to depict antagonists that way, and did not.

Now I remember the scene. Those women were Fish Speakers. But I took that scene not as evidence of Duncan Idaho's or Frank Herbert's homophobia, but as a sign that Duncan Idaho was old on the inside and young on the outside. After all, old people are far more likely to complain about the sexual freedom and moral declining than young men and women.
As for the Baron, even if all the characters in Dune were rabidly homophobic, they would hardly be bothered by the fact that the Baron was gay. The list of his other problematic qualities was too long.

 

[Peppa]

What's also fascinating is that it's a part of the books that film makers want to avoid.

It would be one long TV series if you tried to squeeze everything in these books into a film. So filmmakers often have to decide what to leave out of the film.

 

[Swank]

Now I remember the scene. Those women were Fish Speakers. But I took that scene not as evidence of Duncan Idaho's or Frank Herbert's homophobia, but as a sign that Duncan Idaho was old on the inside and young on the outside. After all, old people are far more likely to complain about the sexual freedom and moral declining than young men and women.
As for the Baron, even if all the characters in Dune were rabidly homophobic, they would hardly be bothered by the fact that the Baron was gay. The list of his other problematic qualities was too long.

The people in the first book are deeply socially conservative. Patriarchal, would not do IVF, etc. That's Duncan's world.

 

[paeng]

It would be one long TV series if you tried to squeeze everything in these books into a film. So filmmakers often have to decide what to leave out of the film.

I was referring to homophobia, etc.

 

[Peppa]

The people in the first book are deeply socially conservative. Patriarchal, would not do IVF, etc. That's Duncan's world.

That's exactly my point. Oh yes, Duncan remembers well those days when spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. Oops, that's from a different book!

 

[Peppa]

I was referring to homophobia, etc.

But the book about God-Emperor hasn't been made into a film yet. So I don't really understand how you can take a homophobic scene out of a film that hasn't been made yet?
If you mean that people hated the Baron, it was more because they hated him for molesting children and being a bad guy.

 

[paeng]

But the book about God-Emperor hasn't been made into a film yet. So I don't really understand how you can take a homophobic scene out of a film that hasn't been made yet?
If you mean that people hated the Baron, it was more because they hated him for molesting children and being a bad guy.

I think Torres was also referring to the Baron as a stereotype of gay men. He adds that Lynch tried to depict such, even with the character of Feyd.

 

[Peppa]

I think Torres was also referring to the Baron as a stereotype of gay men. He adds that Lynch tried to depict such, even with the character of Feyd.

Unfortunately, I'm very bad at stereotypes. Sometimes I think I have a stereotype-proof mind. It's like throwing a ball against a wall. The stereotypes are the ball and my mind is the wall. No matter how many times you throw it, it always bounces back and never gets embedded in the wall.

I don't know how to explain it properly. Stereotypes are something you perceive and remember without question, and I always ask questions.

Honestly, I was most disappointed that Alia was practically thrown out of the new movie. When the good guy kills the bad guy, it's just too cliché. You see it in every movie. But when a four-year-old girl kills her old fat grandfather, it's much more interesting.

 

[paeng]

Unfortunately, I'm very bad at stereotypes. Sometimes I think I have a stereotype-proof mind. It's like throwing a ball against a wall. The stereotypes are the ball and my mind is the wall. No matter how many times you throw it, it always bounces back and never gets embedded in the wall.

I don't know how to explain it properly. Stereotypes are something you perceive and remember without question, and I always ask questions.

Honestly, I was most disappointed that Alia was practically thrown out of the new movie. When the good guy kills the bad guy, it's just too cliché. You see it in every movie. But when a four-year-old girl kills her old fat grandfather, it's much more interesting.

Stereotyping is connected to bias, prejudice, etc. That means you are completely non-biased, like a computer.

Meanwhile, keep in mind that stereotypes also involve cliched characters. So when you identify an action as being "too cliche," then that means you're good at stereotypes.

 

[Peppa]

Maybe. I know that stereotypes exist, but somehow I forget to use them at the right time, like other people do. I don't know how to explain it.

For example, when I read Dune and watched the film (both Lynch's old film and the two new films), it didn't occur to me that Baron could be some kind of stereotypical gay man. I just thought he was a criminal and a real pig. But it didn't occur to me that his desire to corrupt boys and not girls had anything to do with him being a real pig.

As for clichés, I think that's something that only happens in books and films (as opposed to stereotypes and prejudices that actually happen). If you've seen a lot of films where the good guy kills the bad guy, you might come to the conclusion that it's a cliché.

Anyway, this thread isn't about the peculiarities of my mind or even Baron's sexual preferences, it's about the similarities between Dune and WOT.

 

[paeng]

FWIW, being seen as a pig is one stereotype of criminals who like to corrupt boys and girls.

In light of the thread, that's one notable similarity of the two, i.e., Tolkien was trying to depict the horrors of industrialization (as seen in Mordor) while Herbert was doing similar in light of the rise of national democratic fronts, etc., in the 1960s. But it looks like movie makers try to water that down:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/10/28/dune-muslim-influences-erased/

 

[Peppa]

It's just a little swearing. Besides, a person can be called a pig for many other things, not just pedophilia. There are many ways in which a man or woman can become a pig.

I've read about Tolkien's views on industrialization. But I don't know much about Frank Herbert's political views, so that was an interesting article.