The Lannister Lion

[The Blackfish]

I’m not sure when this occurred to me, but it has been bothering me ever since, so I thought I’d throw it into the pot …


Why is the sigil of House Lannister a lion? Every other house that I can think of has a sigil that in some way relates to their history or environment, such as:

Stark = Direwolf. Historical and environmental

Frey = Twin Bridges. Environmental

Tyrell = Rose. Historical

Martell = Sun and Spear. Environmental

Greyjoy = Krakken. Environmental

Tully = Fish. Environmental

Aryyn = Hawk on blue. Environmental

All of the lesser houses that I can see reflect this same pattern as well.



So why does Lannister have a lion? To my knowledge there are no lions prowling around Casterly Rock. Infact, the lion seems to be the only African-type animal that GRRM has included in his house sigils.

Is there any historical reason why house Lannister might have lions? Have I missed something? Or is this just a literary oversight by GRRM?



It seems to me that, going on the environmental / historical pattern, Lannister should have some sort of a rock / mountain as their sigil, or something relating to their founder, Lan the Clever.



Please feel free to correct me …!?

 

[Duff_Omathum]

I believe the Clegan family was raised to lordship because lord Tywin was saved from a wild lion by three hounds trained by Sandor's father.

(How ironic would it have been if the lord of Lannister had been killed by a lion!)

So I guess that implies that wild lions do exist in Westros, although I don't think it specifies where. Perhaps closer to Dorne, where the climate is warmer?

 

[Duff_Omathum]

I really don't see spears as environmental, nor bridges, unless by environmental you are refering to cultural and architectural as well...

How about the Bolton's flayed man. Everyone is welcome see the flayed men in their natural environment Also house Payne is checkered purple and white, with gold coins...I'm sure there are more too.

Nice theory though.

 

[The Blackfish]

I really don't see spears as environmental, nor bridges, unless by environmental you are refering to cultural and architectural as well...

Well, yes, I did actually. Such as the Frey, who live in a giant bridge, and the MArtell's whose weapon of choice is the spear.

How about the Bolton's flayed man. Everyone is welcome see the flayed men in their natural environment

You're probably right there, but perhaps the Bolton's were particularly bloodthirsty in the past and enjoyed stripping the skin off their enemies more so than other houses? I'd have to do some reasearch.

I guess the main point of all I am saying is that Westeros, like a lot of other fantasy worlds is predominantly European in terms of its climate, flora and fauna. A lion just didn't seem to particularly fit with that, is all.

And it got me thinking - wouldn't it be interesting to read some books that used other types of flora/fauna in their worlds? Like African animals, or even Australian?
Ha ha - "I am from house Blanketyblank of the Chunky Wombat sigil" ... etc etc.

 

[The Blackfish]

look at that ... the qoutes didn't work. Damn

 

[Brian G Turner]

Corrected.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

You're probably right there, but perhaps the Bolton's were particularly bloodthirsty in the past and enjoyed stripping the skin off their enemies more so than other houses? I'd have to do some reasearch..

The Boltons were known for their habit of flaying their enemies, for several generations. I believe the Starks finally put an end to it when they managed to get the Boltons to bend their knees. Apparently, however, the tanned and cured skins of their old enemies still hang in the main hall of the Bolton castle.

I guess the main point of all I am saying is that Westeros, like a lot of other fantasy worlds is predominantly European in terms of its climate, flora and fauna. A lion just didn't seem to particularly fit with that, is all.

The man who Jaime replaced on the Kingsguard, Ser Harlan Grandison, had a sigil of a sleeping lion. I think that perhaps the lion represented on the sigils here may be more of mountain lion than an African lion. Those can be found all over. In addition, I'm thinking that the flora and fauna of Westeros may be a bit more varied than the typical fantasy world based in Europe: Arya mentions lizard-lions, for example, which I took to be something like crocodiles or alligators, and they were encountered farther north than I would have thought.

I think more lords than we think got their sigils from incidents in their lives. Ser Davos had a ship with an onion on its sail, the Dondarrion sigil is a bolt of lightning because lightning struck a deadly opponent during a battle, Ser Bronn's sigil is a flaming chain across a river, and one of the men who was responsible for capturing Ned Stark took a bloody spear as his sigil, upon being knighted.

The sigils are pretty interesting... there's a website, actually, that has all the sigils of the different houses, and their histories. I don't know what it is, though. Maybe someone else can help me out with that?

 

[jnr_turtle]

The sigils are pretty interesting... there's a website, actually, that has all the sigils of the different houses, and their histories. I don't know what it is, though. Maybe someone else can help me out with that?

You mean this?

westeros.org is probably the best aSoIaF resource on the web. Oh how many hours have I spent there... Time well spent I'm sure. *should be studying*

 

[Rosemary]

You mean this?

westeros.org is probably the best aSoIaF resource on the web. Oh how many hours have I spent there... Time well spent I'm sure. *should be studying*

A great site, thanks for the link hnr_turtle.

I found the House Mottos rather interesting as well as the House Sigiles.

 

[Culhwch]

Westeros.org is a great site. Can lose myself for hours amongst their resources...

I guess the main point of all I am saying is that Westeros, like a lot of other fantasy worlds is predominantly European in terms of its climate, flora and fauna. A lion just didn't seem to particularly fit with that, is all.

How many lions do you see in Britain? And yet the lion has been a sigil of their royal families (and sporting teams) for many a long year. Same deal with Westeros, I guess. And the Lannisters have a very aristocratic Bristish feel about them, maybe that's why George linked the two. It does fit so perfectly though. Gold hair, golden fur, a pride of lions, a pride of (very proud) Lannisters...

 

[The Blackfish]

Yeah, you do have a very valid point Culhwch, and one that makes a lot of literary and allegorical sense.

I know moutain lions exist in Westeros, as Arya has pointed put. I just don't see them featuring for House Lannister in the same way that the direwolves do for the Starks. As a prominent and powerful house within the story, it makes sense that their sigil would also be a much feared animal. I have not, however, seen that the characters mention lions much at all compared to some other animals.

But I really don't want to nit-pick. There are so many better things to discuss. Who knows, maybe GRRM has left lions out of the picture on purpose, to signify the ultimate ineffectiveness of the Lannisters?

 

[Koopa]

what does it matter, i mean, you got king Richard the lionhearted of england, so...

Dont know his arms though, dont even know the english arms, i do know a lot of french arms, and those of flanders, gelderland and so on, from a comic-book called the red knight by W.Vandersteen, its a famous dutch/flemish comic-book writer, perhaps you lot have heard of Suske and Wiske thats another series of him

 

[Werthead]

Mountain lions lair among the western hills and mountains, and in the past some of them made their homes on Casterly Rock itself. That is why the Lannisters have a lion as their sigil.

Btw, the Westeros.org message board is of great use in finding the answers to these sort of questions. GRRM himself doesn't post, although his other half sometimes does, and our admin Ran is in occasional contact with him. You can also join up with the Brotherhood Without Banners fan group there, which is reasonably active in the UK, US and mainland Europe. However, a high alcohol tolerance is recommended. The group sometimes arranges meet-ups with GRRM himself during signings etc, which can be a lot of fun.

 

[Boaz]

Duff, great job remembering the story of the rise of House Clagane.

Here is information on the historic range of the Asiatic Lion. Only about 300 still exist in the wild.

http://www.asiatic-lion.org/distrib.html

The African Lion is the breed that we see in zoos or movies. Here they are on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion

If you check out the European Cave Lion link, it seems they indicate that it roamed most of Europe during Ice Age times.

The other major interesting fact is that China has never been in the native range of the Asiatic Lion, yet Lions figure in the art and culture of China. The most obvious display of this are the lion dance and the lion statues (often called Foo Dogs) that guard most doors of the Forbidden Palace.

 

[Koopa]

I find it odd by the way that (unless i forgot it) that there is not yet a house with a weasel or otter as its sigil, cause they are clever little beasts and awesome yet very playful predators

 

[Werthead]

House Varner has a silver weasel as its sigil. House Varner is in disgrace for swearing allegiance first to Renly and then Stannis before being defeated on the Blackwater. It's lord was one of those frog-marched into King Joffrey's hall to beg for forgiveness and re-swear loyalty at the start of ASoS. No sign of any otters though.

Btw, according to the sigil of House Reed of Greywater Watch, the lizard-lions of the Neck are, in fact, crocodiles.

 

[A Bengali Menace]

Not that strange, actually

The Asiatic lion used to roam all about eastern Europe. I can't post the URL for some reason, but check out Wikipedia's entry of "Lions of Europe". It wouldn't be unusual for lions in the westerlands, since Westeros is a parallel to medieval Europe. Remember that GRRM regularly includes pre/historical creatures such as direwolves and mammoths in ASoIaF.

(first post!)

 

[Wil]

When Tyrion wins one of the spots as the dragon's head, and there by co-wins the game of thrones, he's going to change that Lannister banner to a dwarf-lion with a stunted tail.

All hail the Dwarf!

 

[Queen Cersei]

Hmmm, Cersei ('s ghost) will not be pleased, Wil. Or it could be a three headed fire breathing lion

 

[Wil]

Hmmm, Cersei ('s ghost) will not be pleased, Wil. Or it could be a three headed fire breathing lion

Cersei ('s ghost) will forget about Tyrion as soon as she (it) realizes that Jamie's the one that's going to kill her. Besides, once little T's on his dragon who cares what Cersei ('s ghost) thinks.

All kneel (very low) and hail the Dwarf!

Come on QC, you've gotta admit, the deformed little dude's got style!

As to the fire breathing lion, that belongs in Narnia, not here.