1984

[galanx]

The differences between the two were far, far less than the similarities. Which is why so many on the left supported Hitler until he attacked Stalin.

If you're referring to the period of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, it wasn't that the (official pro-Soviet) Communists and their followers supported Hitler; it was that from denouncing the fascist war-mongering dictator Hitler and demanding that the cowardly Western Powers ally with the brave Soviet Union against him, they reversed literally overnight to denouncing the imperialist war-mongering Western Powers who wanted to start a war with peace-loving Hitler and Stalin.

 

[galanx]

There’s certainly a moment where Winston realises that the Party will kill Syme (an Outer Party member) because he is too intelligent, even though he is entirely devout. I don’t know whether there is a policy of not killing Inner Party members, but O’Brien seems to know too much as well. He lacks the kind of violent, mindless loyalty to Big Brother that would be required. In fact, I’m pretty sure that Aaronson and the others in the photo that Winston hides were Inner Party members, so O’Brien had probably better watch his back.

Yes, the period of the Great Purges was in Orwell's mind, and after WWII, rather than relaxing as so many hoped, Stalin seemed to be gearing up for another round. Even the Inner Party was no safe place, though the closest circle to Stalin, a remarkable collection of thugs, weasels, dullards, and incompetents, managed to last with minimal changes from the time he consolidated power to his death. Being even just outside that circle, though....

 

[galanx]

Another excellent book is "Darkness at Noon" by Arthur Koestler, about an Old Bolshevik being interrogated and awaiting execution during the Great Purge. It's mostly a philosophical exercise in examining how the years of hewing to the Party line resulted in total moral decay, leading to the bizarre spectacle of the Bolshevik's leading figures confessing to have been paid spies and saboteurs for their entire revolutionary careers, and how they justified their self-abegnation as their final sacrifice for the cause. (Later it turned out that Koestler, Orwell and others had somewhat overanalysed the situation; Stalin had simply threatened to have their entire families and everyone they knew and loved tortured and shot.)

 

[mosaix]

Imagine living in Oceana, how soul crushingly bad it would truly be.

Interestingly enough, Baylor, we have come to accept some things in our current societies that we don't bat an eyelid at because the government tells us it's for our own protection:

1) Security services have access to our emails and texts
2) Operating systems have built-in back-doors that the security services can use to log in to our systems and even turn on their cameras - now that's very 1984
3) Here in the UK we have CCTV cameras on every street corner practically recording our every move.

We seem to accept these things because we're told it's for our own good and yet when a work of fiction describes similar we're horrified.

 

[Edward M. Grant]

We seem to accept these things because we're told it's for our own good and yet when a work of fiction describes similar we're horrified.

Don't forget the telescreens^H^H^H^H'Smart TVs' that send everything you say to a remote server for voice recognition.

But this is why I think Brazil is a much more realistic British dystopia than 1984. The Party don't operate out in the open, they do these things from behind closed doors. And, despite their ever-increasing powers, they're utterly inept. They arrest people for posting 'offensive' tweets while their actual enemies just laugh at them.

 

[BAYLOR]

Interestingly enough, Baylor, we have come to accept some things in our current societies that we don't bat an eyelid at because the government tells us it's for our own protection:

1) Security services have access to our emails and texts
2) Operating systems have built-in back-doors that the security services can use to log in to our systems and even turn on their cameras - now that's very 1984
3) Here in the UK we have CCTV cameras on every street corner practically recording our every move.

We seem to accept these things because we're told it's for our own good and yet when a work of fiction describes similar we're horrified.

Because the fiction is showing us the potential dark side of for our own good.

 

[Cathbad]

I'll say again... legislation like "The Patriot Act" gives the victory to the terrorists.

 

[BAYLOR]

There’s certainly a moment where Winston realises that the Party will kill Syme (an Outer Party member) because he is too intelligent, even though he is entirely devout. I don’t know whether there is a policy of not killing Inner Party members, but O’Brien seems to know too much as well. He lacks the kind of violent, mindless loyalty to Big Brother that would be required. In fact, I’m pretty sure that Aaronson and the others in the photo that Winston hides were Inner Party members, so O’Brien had probably better watch his back.

If only Syme had kept his mouth shut and opinions to himself . But he didn't and in expressing them , he got noticed . Definitely not a good thing in Oceana.

 

[Idealect]

I rather disliked it, but then I did go in with the expectation of an adventure yarn rather than a political tract.

I did find the illustration rather pointless- like, obviously, if evil people have enough power, and are sick enough, they can create a stable system of pointless oppression. -At that point it's GAME OVER, that's the most extreme form, -where everything goes perfectly (wrongly -for the wrong people)- of the state of things to avoid. I think investigating and dwelling on one of the worst of the worst case scenarios is rather pointlessly morbid. One must just avoid such and such taking of directions as far as possible. A worst case scenario would therefore be a a distraction.

My stance on it is that I can't judge whether it was, or how much it was, necessarry and useful at the time. I rather suspect that (by my system) its main merit was contemporary and political, thought I suppose I should reread it again with different expectations and see what I think. (though a second reading might be less important than a first)

It certainly is a very striking illustration, so if someone thinks it's not conceptually possible for thinks to be so stably wrong, it might be an interesting read for them. But then again, what if they can't conceive of it because their mind refuses to, because they intuitively feel that it would add nothing to be aware of such a possibility, but, potentially, fear?

 

[wam]

Curious about all this watching what people do phenomena. Around here there are two neighbourhoods side to side. One has some political power - enough to have a ring of CCTV cameras removed because they thought it was the worst kind of government intrusion. The oddity is that the cameras were spying on the other neighbourhood which had actually be campaigning for more of them because they were worried about a high crime rate. The better off neighbourhood (who wanted the cameras removed) won out. The other neighbourhood not only wanted more cameras but they were providing volunteers to sit and watch them a lot of the time.