Just what the heck do you mean by "gritty"???

[biodroid]

Let me attempt to add my 2 cents. Imagine you are at a restaurant and dining on a medium seared fillet mignon. You know what to expect, beautifully juicy and tender steak with an amazing pepper sauce. But someone forgot to clean the grill properly and you get a burnt hard bit of something and it grinds in your mouth making it a bit unpleasant, you dismiss it (if you are partial to that sort of thing) and continue eating think, strange I never had that happen to me. It wasn't bad, maybe slightly on the burnt side but all the while it was good. Hope that made sense.

To me gritty means how could you do that to my favourite character? I thought he was this all invincible sword master but he is just like me, vulnerable, scared and not sure how he is going to survive. He is not a god of some sorts, instead he breathes air and bleeds like any mortal person alive. The characters become unpredictable and not more invincible to overcome the baddy.

 

[Toby Frost]

If you ask me I think it's pretty much useless as a term: it's incredibly vague to the point of me having a rough idea what it's not - cheesy D&D style fantasy where the swearing is all "By Grabthor's hammer!" - but beyond that it's just a synonym for "Dark", which often translates as "cool" or "really, like, mature". Which segues neatly into my Dark-is-not-equal-to-good rant.

I have developed a theory that there are three ages of fantasy-reading. The first is the one where good and bad are very clear-cut, the hero is a nice young fellow (stereotypically, a prophesied farmboy, but we've not seen one of those for a while) and the baddies are monsters that can be killed without any remorse. It's the age where you wish you were Luke Skywalker.

The second age is a bit more teenage. You've realised that life is tough and sucky and that all the attractive girls like men who treat them badly. Nothing goes right and nice guys end last. All soldiers are miserable conscripts who die in droves or fascist stormtroopers who kill them in droves like Russia or Nazis or something? You like Han Solo but would like him more if he carried a skull and beat up a few prisoners along the way.

The third stage is where you realise that life is tough, but, hey, you came here to read a novel, not wring your hands. At that point, it doesn't matter how self-consciously dark a book is so long as it makes sense, and you're aware that one can become too emo to be taken seriously.

The trouble to my mind is that 3 can easily lapse into 2 when the author tries too hard to be tough, leading to lapses of credibility and taste. There's a death at the end of The First Law that made me snigger, it was so arbitrary and "dark" - the rest of the trilogy had been tough (and very good) but not shark-jumpingly so up to that point. But then, life is all dark and stuff, man, so like get real, y'know?

 

[Anne Lyle]

I think "gritty" was a term that people used to try and capture the sea change in fantasy that seems to have happened around the mid-90s. To me it almost felt like the fantasy equivalent of cyberpunk - we went from more-or-less optimistic tales of exploration and adventure to cynical stories of civilisations in decline and heroes of dubious morals. In both cases there had been such stories before, but suddenly they were in the forefront of fashion rather than a minor sub-genre.

In answer to Teresa's question about why the grittiness focuses on violence rather than domestic struggles, I think it comes down to the fact that fantasy is basically escapist. Violence taps into our deepest urges, feelings that (for better or worse) are hormonally linked to sex and survival, whereas coping with grief is just too uncomfortable a topic for many.

I totally understand that male readers don't find childbirth an interesting topic, and from my own perspective I have an all-too-close acquaintance with life-threatening labour (having undergone an emergency caesarean) and frankly don't want to read a grisly medieval version of it!

On the other hand I think fantasy combat can be very cathartic for readers who face a lot of frustration in their daily lives. Who amongst us has never fantasised about just once being able to wipe the floor with some annoying git who has made us miserable?

 

[chopper]

The third stage is where you realise that life is tough, but, hey, you came here to read a novel, not wring your hands. At that point, it doesn't matter how self-consciously dark a book is so long as it makes sense, and you're aware that one can become too emo to be taken seriously.

Amen to that, sir.

And for me, whether or not the fantasy is realistic/gritty is a moot point - the characters themselves must be realistic enough to keep the story interesting. Applies just as much to SF as to F.

(And did I ever tell you that I once got mugged by two emos? Came at me with knives.... and I said "Oh come on, chaps, we both know who you're going to hurt with those..." ... ... ... ... I'll get me coat.)

 

[Dermit]

In fantasy? Gritty means real. Visceral. No punches pulled. It's an overlay of reality atop an unreal world.

In a gritty fantasy, the characters have to feel real, the world has to feel real, and the author's presentation has to feel real. No flowery tiptoeing around the issues--if there's violence there's gonna be blood. If there's sex the characters--gasp--might not be madly in love. Nothing is black, nothing is white, but shades of grey all around.

At least that's my take on it. From where I'm standing, Abercrombie and Bakker are the posterboys. Other authors achieve it to varying degrees--Cook, Martin, Erikson, for a few examples--but nobody else is doing gritty like Joe and Scott.

 

[Grunkins]

I don't think gritty means real. Or more correctly, I don't associate verisimilitude with gritty. For example I think Abercrombie write fairly gritty stories, but his stories don't have a lot of verisimilitude, and conversely I think Rothfuss does not write gritty stories, but his stories do have a pretty high degree of verisimilitude.

I think grit is more about focus than reality (or maybe better termed, "realness"). If a writer focuses on blood, dirt (actual grit), and semen their stories are gritty, but no more "real" than a writer focusing on things not associated with grit.

 

[rai]

hope I don't offend anyone (if I can be critical of Mr. Martin, I still like his books but not some of his favorite topics that he thinks add color or realism) the thing I greatly dislike about how he puts a gritty (real life?) spin in his book seems to be it has to do with bodily functions ('night soil' etc. etc.) and too much talk of voiding bladders or engorged body parts.

Forgive me, but I could do with a way lot less of these details.

I get it people have bodily functions we don't need to know every time or how much etc.. it takes away from the greatness of the otherwise great series.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Gritty seems to be a cover-all word for needlessly violent.

 

[David B]

Gritty seems to be a cover-all word for needlessly violent.

Our language may have evolved beyond that. Robinson Crusoe by Daniel Defoe has been shelved as gritty on the Goodreads website.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Violence taps into our deepest urges, feelings that (for better or worse) are hormonally linked to sex and survival

Very interesting observation - especially in reference to males.

On the other hand I think fantasy combat can be very cathartic for readers who face a lot of frustration in their daily lives.

Abercrombie's First Law trilogy has already been mentioned, but I remember skipping a lot of the violence in it. The problem I had is that everything was so precise and detailed. IMO, a general character caught in a fight will be too busy flailing about, trying to stay alive, than notice whether a blade slides upwards between the third and fourth ribs or not.

 

[Toby Frost]

Maybe when people say "gritty", they mean something like "noir" - except that there is a lot more to noir than just sex, violence and bad smells.

 

[Warren_Paul]

To me I think its a bit of a masculine term that is often used to give a character the excuse to act like a big tough guy that can stand up and take a beating without flinching, like how a real man should act. A bit overdone macho like.

I also think it is used to be overly descriptive with the violence, which has already been mentioned.

But really, I think true grit is a strong sense of character, that even though bad things happen, and the character suffers for it, they find some way to get back up and continue on, to fight till the bitter end. It should be partly realism, that nobody is perfect, everyone struggles at some point or another, that they have emotional or physical stumbling blocks they have to overcome.

It does not have to be about explicit blood, violence or sex to be gritty.

 

[James Coote]

My grandfather was in WWII on the Russian front, on the losing side. My mum reliably informs me he has mellowed in his old age, but he's no 'bitter vet'. He jokes and laughs and when he gets drunk, he starts telling stories about fishing with grenades and picking wild onions to eat and trails off when he remembers comrades. He just appreciates he is lucky to be alive

If we have scars on the mind, it is easier to show them to the audience, to externalise them, by placing them physically on a war veteran character and their experiences

If you have been through something horrendous, you want to impress upon people that sheer horror, so you leave out the comedy moments or the boring moments unless to juxtapose with the violence

 

[Anne Lyle]

I think Joe Abercrombie does a great job with Glokta in this respect. Yes, he's an inquisitor and torturer, but he's not some cold-hearted sadist. When you get to know the man, you realise how damaged he is and really feel sorry for him (which is the last thing he'd want!).

 

[steve12553]

Gritty- harsh, coarse or unrefined. In literature used to describe a detective novel a la Phillip Marlowe or Sam Spade. That's simple. The thread is confusing. I had to cross reference entries to try to remember the user name changes (to protect the innocent)that have occured in the short six years I've been visiting here.

 

[woodsman]

I always thought Dickens was particularly gritty and maybe some of Faulks - Engelby and Birdsong spring to mind.

By gritty I mean - well I'm not sure but hopefully you get an idea from the above...

Fantasy is too fantastical to be gritty for me generally.

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

I don't know. 'Gritty', 'Grimdark', 'Abercrombie' are all words I discovered had new meaning in new context after I was published. There does seem to be a conviction in some quarters that it's all part of a literary movement or even conspiracy ... some tightly bound form where one author studies and apes the next, where stories are written to conform to a new aesthetic in hopes they can be crafted to fit through the publication keyhole. But perhaps it's just a broader trend in expectations about writing - just 'modern' writing. Just as the dialogue and acting in 1930s films looks odd to a 2010's eye, or the style in a 19th century book doesn't match the expectations of most teenage readers today ... maybe 'gritty' in fantasy is just the genre being gently swept along by the slow tide of change - not better, not worse, not permanent, just different?

 

[Galacticdefender]

I don't know. 'Gritty', 'Grimdark', 'Abercrombie' are all words I discovered had new meaning in new context after I was published. There does seem to be a conviction in some quarters that it's all part of a literary movement or even conspiracy ... some tightly bound form where one author studies and apes the next, where stories are written to conform to a new aesthetic in hopes they can be crafted to fit through the publication keyhole. But perhaps it's just a broader trend in expectations about writing - just 'modern' writing. Just as the dialogue and acting in 1930s films looks odd to a 2010's eye, or the style in a 19th century book doesn't match the expectations of most teenage readers today ... maybe 'gritty' in fantasy is just the genre being gently swept along by the slow tide of change - not better, not worse, not permanent, just different?

Grimdark... As in Warhammer 40,000? I'm pretty sure that is where that originated.

 

[Anne Lyle]

But perhaps it's just a broader trend in expectations about writing - just 'modern' writing. Just as the dialogue and acting in 1930s films looks odd to a 2010's eye, or the style in a 19th century book doesn't match the expectations of most teenage readers today ... maybe 'gritty' in fantasy is just the genre being gently swept along by the slow tide of change - not better, not worse, not permanent, just different?

I think you're right. Fantasy fiction is just catching up with the broader trend in Western culture, which is away from the squeaky-clean 1950s world where no-one ever swore or had sex and you could tell the good guys from the baddies by the colour of their hats, and into the modern world of cynicism and sleaze

 

[Connavar]

Gritty is popular in all genres these days, nothing surprising. Just like dirtier,more gritty hardboiled PI stories became popular when the gentleman English detective ruled.

What im sick is the idea of "realistic" fantasy epics because there is death,gore,politics in a fantasy book. Okay if its book publishers trying to sell their product but the fans......