Disturbing "theme" in AFFC

[the_faery_queen]

i said i was staying away for a bit, because i was angry, not because of this, neccessaruly, but because i was having a similiar conversation elsewhere (which i am still avoiding) which made me even more mad and i didn't want this going out of control tho i am still not happy being told i was on my high horse for having an opinion about one element of this book. or being told i was trying to censor it just for disliking and finding one element unneccessary.

anyhoo, other reasons could have been given for ayra to have a man killed, without it being rape. but martin chose to have him boasting about a rape, and that is what bothers me. that he chose sexual abuse of a woman as a valid reason to push on the plot, and it is something i see a lot of. abusing women to ahcieve some other goal, when that goal could have been acheived any number of ways.

the ONLY positive thing i can say about the rape, is the way martin showed the rapist. he showed us what sort of man he was, that he thought perhaps she enjoyed it when she sto9pped fighting, showed us how mob rule can make people do something like that, and that was a fairly realistic potrayal of how a lot of people view sex. it wasn't making the rapist into some sort of monster, but showing what an idiot he was, concerned with himself, no empathy, no regret, and that is how a lot of rapists do function. so i do applaud him for having a good perception of that side of it, more than many other writers do.

but at the same time, it was unneccessary and i will never think it oterhwise. because i don't think it is martin's job to show us how bad a rapist is, to show us that side of his character, as he was a nobody character. for me i felt it unneccessary because it could have been done ANY other way, but martin chose rape, and for me that says more about him than anything else. not that he is a misognist, or likes rape, or anything like that! just that it is often used by writers, raping some woman, and the carelessness of it is what worries me. little consideration is given to it being accurate, and that is what i think is damaging.

so the rapists view point did a lot to give us insight into how they think, but the scene for me will always be yet another one of those, he raped a woman to acheieve a point, elements, and i think that martin could have found many other ways to achieve the same thing. but that's me, and my thoughts.

as for the swearing and so on, i dont' find that as offensive. they're just words. i dont like the use of racist/sexist/homophobic words, but swearing and so on doesnt' bother me. of course, if it does get used too often it looses its impact, which just makes it rather pointless. *shrug*

 

[Brian G Turner]

Is it just me or are some of you disturbed by the abundance of rapings, molestations, strong sexual content and language of AFFC?

I tried to get my girlfriend to read the series, but she said she couldn't stand the "macho" writing - she didn't like the themes of sex and violence at all.

My personal opinion is that for what he's trying to achieve, I think he's doing a good job - war as an ugly process that goes far beyond the battlefield.

But...it's not going to be something that everyone can read, and that doesn't invalidate any person's opinions.

Funnily enough, I barely remember the tavern rape scene - when strikes out more is the psychological horror, such as when Sansa is taken to the tower to view the rotting heads of her father and household in AGoT.

My only real quibble is some of the realism of the wounding - my understanding is that you don't get "splatter" from a sword blow unless an earlier wound has allowed blood to pool in that place. It's a common complaint I have with fiction, though.

Overall, though, when you hear of the general carnage and destruction of the kingdoms in AFFC, it really does a good job of communicating a sense of war as perdition in an historical sense. The difference being, we can touch individual people to care about in the story, which is much harder with real history.

2c.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

When people say that it's just a story and it didn't bother them, I'd suggest that tends to validate faery_queen's point that readers are becoming increasingly desensitized, rather than refute it.

And there seems to be a lot of black-and-white thinking here, as if one of two things has to be true: either someone who reads a graphic rape scene in a book will therefore be incited to acts of sexual violence OR reading that scene will have no influence at all. Is it so hard to conceive that the truth might fall somewhere in between? That books and movies and a host of other things that desensitize us as a society might add yet another contributing factor to an already volatile cultural stew? (Which I think is closer to what faery_queen is trying to say.)

 

[the_faery_queen]

yes

thanks for putting it better than i can. i am So bad at condenscing my rambings (and general writing )

and you're very right, the shrugging it off as just a story does confirm my point. wish i had thought of that!

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

And there seems to be a lot of black-and-white thinking here, as if one of two things has to be true: either someone who reads a graphic rape scene in a book will therefore be incited to acts of sexual violence OR reading that scene will have no influence at all.

I've been trying to say this whole time that a graphic scene in a book can do the opposite- not incite acts of sexual violence, but create an awareness and a sensitivity towards such things. I do not think that scenes such as the tavern scene only promote either a thirst for violence or deadens the reactions one has to them. Unless one is constantly reading a barrage of graphic rape scenes, I fail to see how reading of one or two episodes will encourage us to go out and do it on our own, or to be completely disinterested. I think many of us experience a range of emotions when reading or hearing about such a thing- horror, sympathy, outrage, disgust, sadness, and in pretty much every case, animosity towards the person who has victimized an innocent person.

 

[the_faery_queen]

i was looking at it as a situation as a whole. the rape in fantasy as a general thing, with this tavern girl rape being just one more in a whole mess of abuse towards women in fantasy. one that i felt was beneath martin because he is so much a better writer than many others. but i guess, he is only human too, and not perfect, and i still do see the rape as a mistake. *shrug*

tho as i think i have said, i did like the way he showed the rapist, gave him an element of reality to it which is missing in many other cases where the rapist becomes a big evil figure, a boogey man, which is elevating him, which i don't think is a good idea!

unfortunatly, teh cynical side in me doesn't think that that all people experience emotions when reading it. i think we SHOULD but i think there are a fair few of us who simply don't, and just shrug it off, and that's what owrries me. that the more we read it, the less emotions we will feel toward it. not that it will make us run out and rape, just because we don't feel its that bad anymore, but it may effect us in other ways, in our real life, that we're not aware of at the moment.

anyhoo, think we should move on now maybe? or we may start going around in circles!

 

[hedgeknight]

We've been going in circles for a least 2-3 pages already. This thread began with what I felt was an overuse of explicit sexual content in a general sense and has turned into a specific discussion on rape.

As a writer (or at least a writer wannabe ), I would not wish to censor anyone. In fact, I'm sometimes startled by what appears on the page with MY writing. If I think it is "overkill", I edit it out; but not always.

However, as a reader, I'm apt to be more sensitive to what I'm reading. And if I'm disturbed by the content, as I was in AFFC, then I feel confident to say that Martin went too far - in MY opinion as a reader.

Does that make sense? Or is the wine and the hour getting to me?
-g-

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I've been trying to say this whole time that a graphic scene in a book can do the opposite- not incite acts of sexual violence, but create an awareness and a sensitivity towards such things.

Oh, I agree Arya. I wasn't responding to what you said, but to other remarks made in this thread.

On the other hand, it depends on how these scenes and these themes are used. There is a big difference between including a graphic rape scene (or any other graphic violence) in order to explore the topic of sexual violence, or child abuse, or whatever, and/or to create awareness and sensitivity -- and putting in such a scene as a plot device or for mere dramatic effect. And I'm not even saying that it should never be the latter, only we shouldn't confuse the one thing with the other.

But what I was referring to before was what seems (at least to some of us) to be a barrage of such scenes in recent books. One or two such scenes -- no harm at all, and those who don't like them don't have to read them -- but many scenes in many books by many authors do add up, and the cumulative effect is what worries me. The topic here is not just that one scene anyway, but of a disturbing theme throughout the series. A lot of people think that Martin overdoes the abuse of his female characters, even if a lot of people are equally convinced that he doesn't. And it's not just the sexual violence, it's all the other kinds of violence and brutality, and it's not just Martin but a lot of other writers.

One reason why it's difficult to come up with a direct one to one relationship proving that too many rape scenes (or beheadings, or castrations, or whatever you want to talk about) in the media leads to too many people going out in real life and committing the exact same act or crime, is because the kind of desensitization we're discussing can come out in all sorts of different ways. A person who becomes callous toward violence to women might never commit a sexual assault, but he might feel justified in beating up his girlfriend. Or it might not even be expressed in violent acts, but in the kinds of societal abuses he or she is willing to tolerate or condone.

We live in a time when the President of the United States wants to start torturing people, for God's sake, and a great many of our citizens seem to be OK with that -- providing, you know, it's just foreigners and terrorists.

Not that I'm trying in any way to lay the excesses of George Bush on poor George Martin -- or even Terry Goodkind (although the shoe may fit a little better there) -- just saying that books don't just reflect our attitudes, they help shape them, and those attitudes shape our actions, and our actions shape our world. And that maybe we ought to be more aware of the process, and of how these things work on us, and discuss it and think about it, so that it doesn't all happen in the dark.

 

[the_faery_queen]

i love how well you put things, kelpie. and personally, i blame goodkind for everything, evebn when it rains. i dislike him so much . . .

anyway, i haven't read a lot of new fantasy really, so i haven't noticed a huge rise in violence towards women, but it wouldn't surprise me, i have noticed it in tv and films tho. and it does worry me as well. as a woman, as a writer, as a fantasy reader. i dont' like opening a book and being hit with huge violent scenes. its odd, but if it is in a fillm, there is a rating on it. if it is in a book, nothing. kids read martin (and goodkind. he says no one over 14 should read them. i say no one over 18 (if anyone at all) should!) i think that some books need warnings, because a graphic written rape can be JUST as disturbing and damaging to read as it is to watch. and i also think that what worries me is the lack of research done. people will research medicine, how a horse travels, how a boat works, but when they use a rape they don't tend to bother. situations are unrealistic, rapists are unrealistic, the way a victim reacts, is unrealistic, and that is often dangerous! (trying to stay on topic, but goodkind's kahlan who is often raped so many times, never once seems to get upset or worried about it. that's a reckless thing to do to a main character, threaten her and then not have her care. esp in a world where many people think that women WANT to be raped) that bothers me as well.

and everything is always someones opinion. so yah, if you think that someone has gone overboard, you're allowed to think it. i am not sure he has, with swearing, not having read feast of crows, but that sort of ting doesn't bother me anyway. swearing is jus swearing. when i read the book maybe i can add more about the general rise of violence, BUT remember the situation is getting worse for everyone, the world is darker, its been going on longer, things have fallen apart more, its likely that people wioll become more out for themselves and therefore less caring about niceties such as not swearing

 

[Marky Lazer]

i say no one over 18 (if anyone at all) should!)

I've been pointed to here to read your opinions, but after saying something like I quoted above, it's hard to seriously go into discussion with you at all.

 

[the_faery_queen]

why? i do think that people under 18 shouldn't be reading some of the stuff he writes. you can't see that sort of stuff in a film, so why should you be able to read it? reading isn't somehow less graphic just because they aren't images on a screen. i actually find reading makes things MORe graphic than watching it does. and i don't think anyone should read him, least of all children, but that's my personal opinion whcih was all that i was stating. i am not sure why that is a problem or what that has to do with any other issue. my opinion on him shouldn't make any difference to the topic on hand, which isn't him but the level of swears/abuse in martin's newest book. or make you feel as though you can't discuss things with me because i don't happen to like one particular author. but that's your choice.

 

[Marky Lazer]

I'm afraid your whole argumentation is far from logic, but that's another discussionm which we shouldn't continue in this thread.

 

[the_faery_queen]

my argument is logical and based on fact, thanks. as well as on personal choice. and i am allowed my opinion, as you are allowed yours. and no, i dont' really want to debate it with you at all because i dont' really appreciate being spoken to like this. dont' like my opinion, fine, you don't have to, but there is no reason to be patronising and rude when disagreeing with it.

which is why i am again going to avoid this thread for a bit. before i loose my temper. its fine to disagree, but i really don't think making comments like that is ok.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Ok - as has already been said, the original point of this thread has become totally focussed on 1 scene and we're going round in circles again.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Yep - and let's not simply enter the thread to say someone is wrong, while refusing to take part in the discussion.

Perhaps a new thread about violence in fiction for one of the other boards?