Ser Loras (spoiler)

[Brian G Turner]

I took it at face value that Loras was headstrong and idealist enough to lead a storming and be injured by it. It would surely seem a matter of dishonour in his eyes to have his own injury faked?

Looking forward to reading more about a humbler Loras - but maybe Martin's already covered this ground with Jaime and will leave it at that...

 

[TK-421]

Who is doing the planning and thinking for the Tyrells? Lady Olenna? Does Mace actually include her, or are many powerful players in the Tyrell camp actually loyal to her and not Mace? Is Mace really a blustering windbag or is that just a cover? Loras has shown some base cunning, but I doubt he's the brains. Willas and Garlen are more likely to be the brains. Willas is limited in movement because of his injury, but he's the eldest son.

I was under the impression that Tyrell was one of the last houses to stand with the Targaryens. They were pardonned by Robert because he could not afford another war with Highgarden. So, who is really pulling the strings and what are their ambitions? We've learned of Dorne's loyalty to Danny (moer out of vengeance than anything else) but will the Tyrells join Danny's cause?

Personnally, I would of liked a Tyrell POV to really know what is going on (but I guess that would take the intrigue out of it..)

Loras went to Dragonstone for a reason, which I hope we'll find out soon enough. Maybe the new POV in ADFD will be Loras??

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

In answer to your questions, Boaz: I think that Lady Olenna is the brains behind the brawn, so to speak. I do think that Mace really is full of hot air, and that Margaery and possibly Willas are the Queen of Thorns' apprentices and confidantes. She'd have to secure the Tyrell name in some way, and Margaery and Willas are really the only ones in the family who could rule over their holdings with any success. Loras' physical prowess is not matched by his wits, and Ser Garland(sp?) has his own fish to fry.

Regarding Renly's confidence in impregnating Margaery, I always assumed that he'd simply close his eyes and have done with it. After all, she and Loras do look alike, and Renly would need an heir. Would he have been comfortable with someone else's child succeeding him? I doubt it. And his statement to Stannis was probably meant to infer that he was sleeping with Margaery at the time, and that she simply hadn't been impregnated yet.

I guess I'm still not too willing to read too much into Margaery and Loras' relationship.

 

[Boaz]

I don't wanna read too much also, but I also don't wanna miss the boat here.

Jaime seems to notice many similarities between Loras and himself. Is Jaime only a precourser to Loras? Both of them are sons of high lords. Both of them were great knights at a young age. Both took the White Cloak at a young age. Both have a beautiful sister whom they are very close to. Both of their sisters became Queens. Both of them have brothers who are physically incapable of feats of arms. Both of them have a family member (Tywin and Olenna) who seem to be in the top three players in the Game. Both failed to save their first and second kings while they were in the Kingsguard... Jaime has failed to save three kings. In AFFC, both were sent off to storm castles. Is all of Jaime's life a foreshadowing of Loras?

I, Brian, good point on Loras' honor and willfullness.

TK, interesting observation on Tyrell loyalties. They were stewards to another house before the Targaryen's made them lords of the Reach. So, are you saying that Olenna was saving Margaery for Viserys just like Doran was saving Arianne for Viserys? Loras only took the Rainbow and then the White after Viserys was killed... perhaps Olenna was saving him for Viserys, err, I mean Danaerys. When Loras became a Kingsguard, Dany was known to be married to Drogo and carrying his child... perhaps Garlan (actually, I think he's married) or Willas was (still is) being saved for Dany.

Everyone says that Willas would have been an outstanding knight, except that he was crippled at a young age... hmmm, kinda like Bran. Tyrion, Bran, and Willas could all be capable of doing marvelous deeds on a dragon's back... which one or two could be heads of the dragon?

Again regarding the political aspirations of the Tyrells... are you saying that the Tyrells have married the Lannisters only to destroy them and open the way for the restoration of the Targaryens?

 

[TK-421]

TK, interesting observation on Tyrell loyalties. They were stewards to another house before the Targaryen's made them lords of the Reach. So, are you saying that Olenna was saving Margaery for Viserys just like Doran was saving Arianne for Viserys? Loras only took the Rainbow and then the White after Viserys was killed... perhaps Olenna was saving him for Viserys, err, I mean Danaerys. When Loras became a Kingsguard, Dany was known to be married to Drogo and carrying his child... perhaps Garlan (actually, I think he's married) or Willas was (still is) being saved for Dany.

Again regarding the political aspirations of the Tyrells... are you saying that the Tyrells have married the Lannisters only to destroy them and open the way for the restoration of the Targaryens?

I never thought of Olenna having plans vis-a-vis Viserys, Dany, Loras and Margaery. That would be interesting. While I was intrigued about Dorne's plans and somewhat not all that surprised as they seem like a shrewd bunch with a huge chip on their shoulders called Aegon, I don't see the same with the Tyrells. They seem to be threading water mostly (except for the Joff assasination of course). Besides, as someone else already mentionned, apart from Olenna, they are not the brightest bulbs on the X-Mas tree. I think they will join with Dorne and Dany when the time comes but their part in it is fairly limited. Plus, they now have the Ironborn pillaging their lands.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

You know, I was just thinking about Renly's questions regarding Margaery's likeness to Lyanna. Could it be that he was trying to re-create a "Robert-as-he-used-to-be" image in order to win favor with Robert's followers? While Robert was still alive and after he had gone to seed, as it were, it could have been quite easy for Renly to steal the show with his beautiful "Lyanna," his youthfulness, and the power of Highgarden behind him.

Just a thought that maybe Renly was planning to have Margaery for himself all along...

 

[foxtrot023]

So you're saying the ******* of Driftmark is actually loyal to Stannis? And that Stannis finally achieved a political victory through intrigue over the Lannisters (something he's been notoriously unable to do so far)?

On the other hand, Loras really wants revenge for Renly (Loras loved Renly even more than Brienne). He unjustly slew Emmon Cuy and Robar Royce (iirc) over Renly's death and he would have killed Brienne out of hand if Jaime had not intervened. But after talking with Brienne, Loras now doubts who killed Renly... It seems that Jaime and Brienne have persuaded him that Stannis is responsible for Renly's murder... so perhaps Loras stormed Storm's End in hopes of killing Stannis. Did he know that Stannis was now in the north and not at Dragonstone?

Who is doing the planning and thinking for the Tyrells? Lady Olenna? Does Mace actually include her, or are many powerful players in the Tyrell camp actually loyal to her and not Mace? Is Mace really a blustering windbag or is that just a cover? Loras has shown some base cunning, but I doubt he's the brains. Willas and Garlen are more likely to be the brains. Willas is limited in movement because of his injury, but he's the eldest son.

Garlen has gotten himself some real lands and is now a powerful lord in his own right. Renly might have been a poof, but would he really have initiated a relationship with the fourteen year old son of one of the most powerful men in the realm? Perhaps one of the Tyrells, Garlan or Olenna set it up. If they had provided secure locations, then the relationship could easily have blossomed. Renly admitted to scheming to make Margaery Robert's new queen... and I doubt Loras could have done that by himself.

But as Queen, with a firm hold on Tommen, and with the Regent on the outs, Margaery is not just a Tyrell pawn... she is a major player in the Game of Thrones.

What if Loras swings both ways? What if he and Margaery were as close as Jaime and Cersei? Could the moontea have been for their relationship?

Lots of questions, no real answers.

I think Loras loved Renly like Brienne did- as a woman loves a man. Before I get smacked, two things- Stennis tells renly in the meeting they had (the day before Renly was slayed by the shadow) that his wife (Margaery) was still a maiden and will remain so, and Tyrion asked Loras about a love (in ASOS, or the end of ACOK) about any girl he liked and his reply was- After the sun sets down, any candle pales in comparison). It will be interesting to see how Highgarden will react to having Margaery imprisoned, specially since much of the Lannisters power lies with the swords of highgarden.