Don't hate Cat

[C Of K]

I made it seven or eight of them

That s**t was terrible.

It got worse. It got much worse.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

It got worse. It got much worse.

It's hard to imagine how. I'll take your word for it.

 

[Asimode]

If ASOAIF ever recieves it's justly deserved, multi-billion dollar, oscar winning, culturally significant, peter jackson-made movie series then the millions of kids world wide who will watch it will no longer exclaim "I didn't do it!" when they **** up, they will instead yell "Catelyn Stark did it!".

That is how hated she is.

Huh, not sure about that one.

 

[Tywin]

Huh, not sure about that one.

We talked about giving an award out for digging up the oldest discussion post, but unfortunately I think that project lost momentum.

Those comments on Cat were written before the start of the show, and actually a few years before the release of ADWD.

Even with all that, I'm not really a fan of Cat.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

The fact that this thread exists says it all really.

I hate Cat and I usually dread her chapters. The only good thing that comes from Cat is that she follows Robb around for a while and I liked Robb.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

I was never a fan of Cat. But I only hated her during my first read. During rereads, I kinda just stopped hating her. Not sure why.

 

[Boaz]

Spoiler Alert!!

Welcome, Asimode! FYI... Raven probably has the best defense of Catelyn on page five of this thread... and you can find attacks on Catelyn all over this thread plus the three linked threads in my first post on the first page of this thread.

I'm always up for thread revival. It makes it easier for me to connect with our past discussions than starting a new conversation in a new thread.

SPOILER ALERT for A Storm of Swords!!!!!

Over the thirteen and a half years since I first read about Catelyn's death, I've come to despise her and then to understand her. I once posted that she's not deserving of our pity... but I now think that's quite harsh. She went through a series of no-win situations and extremely difficult choices... and she consistently chose wrong. Yet, mayhaps there were no right choices to be made. I dunno. Hindsight is 20/20. She should've let Eddard defy Robert in the seventh chapter and the story would have been radically different. She should've kept it together after Bran's fall. She should've stayed in Winterfell instead of making Eddard start to trust Baelish. She should have gone straight home instead of starting a civil war. She should've gone home instead of joining the army. She should've cut whatever deal Stannis required after she witnessed Renly's murder. She should've obeyed her king and not freed Jaime. She should've given Robb advice for the bedroom after he was engaged (arranged a mistress or warned him of the Honey Pot).

On the plus side, she felt and loved as deeply or more so than any other character. She knew many political realities, but not enough for the terrible times in which she lived. She outwitted Tyrion and his rescuers. Except for her bit of treachery, she fully supported Robb when he committed the North. She saved Brienne. She advocated reason to the northern lords, to Renly, and to Stannis. She was a loving daughter, mother, and wife.

In contemporary society, a woman who has undergone what she went through in a two year period would be in serious counseling and probably on some medication. Let me see if I can put it into Catelyn's perspective...

-My five children were given (possibly supernatural) monsters as pets by my husband's manipulative and ungrateful *******.
-My sister told me that one of my current house guests also murdered her husband... my husband's beloved mentor.
-My seven year old son was left a paraplegic after being thrown from a fifth story window by an unknown house guest.
-I was abandoned by my husband when he accepted a multi-year job far from home.
-This will end any chance I have of ever conceiving another child!
-My husband took both of my daughters with him.
-Part of my home was burnt by a bungling assassin sent to murder my seven year old son.
-I was sorely wounded by the assassin while trying to save my son.
-I witnessed my son's monster savagely kill the assassin.
-I went to my husband, but he denied me visitation with my daughters even though one's pet had been murdered and the other accused of high treason (and had fled alone into the wild).
-Not knowing which guest tried to kill my son on multiple occasions, I kidnapped one of them.
-I was attacked by murderous brigands on multiple occasions... a number of my people were killed.
-I was reunited with my beloved uncle and my distant sister after a terrifying mountain climb.
-I found out my sister was mentally unstable, at best.... but probably certifiably insane.
-I watched my sister put my prisoner on trial for murder... and watched him go free.
-My sister threatened to kill me if interfered with her parenting methods.
-I found out my sixteen year old son was marching off to war in open rebellion against the government.
-I was sent by my son to negotiate a treaty... which included his marriage.
-My husband was taken prisoner by the new government while my daughters were named wards of the state.
-My husband was executed for treason.
-One daughter is cooperating with the new regime while one is assumed dead.
-I was sent by my son to negotiate a new alliance.
-The negotiations ended when Stannis threatened my son's life.
-I witnessed a shadow demon assassinate Renly and I had to flee before I was blamed and executed.
-I took on a freakish warrior woman as bodyguard.
-I was reunited with my weak brother... and with my gallant father who was on his deathbed.
-I was forced to watch numerous battles while my son, uncle, and brother were in the thick of the fighting.
-I saw my son go from a rebel to proclaimed King of the North.
-My home was insidiously attacked and captured by my foster son... and many of my friends were killed.
-My two youngest sons were murdered by my treacherous foster son.
-In a desperate attempt to salvage some semblance of a family, I freed the man who defenestrated my son.
-My father, the last great man of the country, died.
-My son reneged upon my deal with the Freys.
-At this point, I knew the war was un-winnable.
-I confessed to high treason and was imprisoned, first by my brother, and then by my son.

Therapy? Medication?

How is a person supposed to endure all of that over two to two and a half years?

I just took an online test for depression (DEPRESSEDTEST.COM) answering as I think Catelyn honestly would have by the time Robb left Riverrun for The Twins. I know it serves to reinforce my perception, but one of the results is particularly interesting. Let me clarify that I'm not qualified to clinically assess a real person's mood and mental health... and neither is an online test... but it can be a starting point.

Major Depression: High to Moderate
Dysthymia: Slight to Moderate
Bipolar Disorder: High
Cyclothymia: Very High
Seasonal Affective Disorder: Very High

Season Affective Disorder? She moved from the sunny south to the frozen tundra. Her husband's family and friends incessantly chant "Winter is Coming!" Do you think GRRM thought of that in the early concept of the story or is it coincidence?

I now think Catelyn is deserving of pity, but not adulation. In another thirteen years, my perspective may have changed again... and hopefully the series will be done.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

That is an interesting post Boaz, and certainly helps to explain some of her actions and decisions for the later half of that list, but what about some of the things she does and says before the list starts/early on in the list.

The way she treats Jon has no excuse. or at least just a very poor one. When Ned left her to go fight in the war, she barely knew him, which means she barely knew him when he came back with Jon. She grew to love Ned over time and forgave him for being unfaithful and having a *******, but she could never forgive Jon. For what? Being born? Being loved by Ned? What should Jon have done any differently? Everything she hates about Jon is Ned's fault and yet it is not Ned who she takes it out on, it is Jon, who at the beginning of the story is only 14 years old, and it is pretty clear that for all of his life, she has hated him.

I don't dislike her for some of the choices she has made, (though they have been spectacularly bad) I dislike her for the way she acts, right from the beginning.

 

[devilsgrin]

That is an interesting post Boaz, and certainly helps to explain some of her actions and decisions for the later half of that list, but what about some of the things she does and says before the list starts/early on in the list.

The way she treats Jon has no excuse. or at least just a very poor one. When Ned left her to go fight in the war, she barely knew him, which means she barely knew him when he came back with Jon. She grew to love Ned over time and forgave him for being unfaithful and having a *******, but she could never forgive Jon. For what? Being born? Being loved by Ned? What should Jon have done any differently? Everything she hates about Jon is Ned's fault and yet it is not Ned who she takes it out on, it is Jon, who at the beginning of the story is only 14 years old, and it is pretty clear that for all of his life, she has hated him.

I don't dislike her for some of the choices she has made, (though they have been spectacularly bad) I dislike her for the way she acts, right from the beginning.

i don't blame her for hating Jon... it's a common enough thing for step parents to dislike their partner's children from other people. It's perhaps not admirable, but it's also human nature.
Jon shouldn't be there. Sure Ned could have taken care of him financially over the years, but for a duty-bound Tully, having Jon present was a constant reminder that her husband (whom she really did have to grow to at least like if she wanted any kind of contentment) didn't take his duty as seriously as she does. His Stark features also undermined their children's since Robb and Sansa and Bran were essentially Tully-featured.

 

[Tywin]

i don't blame her for hating Jon... it's a common enough thing for step parents to dislike their partner's children from other people. It's perhaps not admirable, but it's also human nature.
Jon shouldn't be there. Sure Ned could have taken care of him financially over the years, but for a duty-bound Tully, having Jon present was a constant reminder that her husband (whom she really did have to grow to at least like if she wanted any kind of contentment) didn't take his duty as seriously as she does. His Stark features also undermined their children's since Robb and Sansa and Bran were essentially Tully-featured.

Would like to add to this excellent post that Westeros has a long history of bastards challenging the station of their legitimately born siblings.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

i don't blame her for hating Jon... it's a common enough thing for step parents to dislike their partner's children from other people. It's perhaps not admirable, but it's also human nature.
Jon shouldn't be there. Sure Ned could have taken care of him financially over the years, but for a duty-bound Tully, having Jon present was a constant reminder that her husband (whom she really did have to grow to at least like if she wanted any kind of contentment) didn't take his duty as seriously as she does. His Stark features also undermined their children's since Robb and Sansa and Bran were essentially Tully-featured.

Would also like to add that Catelyn herself said this in her POV chapter. It would be easier for her to forgive a hundred bastards just if she didn't have to look at time. She even commented that Southerners often have bastards, but that they aren't kept in the same fashion that Jon is kept.

 

[Boaz]

Eddard should have told Catelyn that Jon was not his. She could have kept that secret, I think. "Family, Honor, Duty" are the Tully words. Catelyn would have bought it if Eddard said "Jon is Lyanna's son (Family) and I must protect him (Honor) because it was her dying wish (Duty)." Of course, the story would be less interesting... but Catelyn would have been better prepared for dealing with Jon and Robert.

Yet... Catelyn's real (and very public) resentment of Jon lent tangible evidence that Jon was Eddard's son... thus protecting him.

What if "...promise me, Ned" included a promise to never tell another soul... not even Catelyn?

Maybe the series should be called Lyanna's Wolfblood and Eddard's Mercy Get Everyone Killed.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Eddard should have told Catelyn that Jon was not his. She could have kept that secret, I think. "Family, Honor, Duty" are the Tully words. Catelyn would have bought it if Eddard said "Jon is Lyanna's son (Family) and I must protect him (Honor) because it was her dying wish (Duty)." Of course, the story would be less interesting... but Catelyn would have been better prepared for dealing with Jon and Robert.

Yet... Catelyn's real (and very public) resentment of Jon lent tangible evidence that Jon was Eddard's son... thus protecting him.

What if "...promise me, Ned" included a promise to never tell another soul... not even Catelyn?

Maybe the series should be called Lyanna's Wolfblood and Eddard's Mercy Get Everyone Killed.

I think this is something related to the part where Eddard is contemplating that some secrets are such that they are impossible to be shared with anyone, including the people one loved and trusted the most, to protect them.

If it was ever to be found out that Jon is perhaps Lyanna and Rhaegar's son or Lyanna and Aerys' son (I know you prefer this one), people who knew the secret and kept it would have possibly been in quite a lot of trouble. Perhaps, Ned was actually trying to ensure that Catelyn and his family would be protected from that by granting them full deniability of knowing anything of it and had unwittingly added that extra layer of protection due to Catelyn's hate towards the boy. However, I don't think it was intentional in any way.

I don't think there was more to it because Eddard is a pretty honest guy and these the part about dangerous secrets was expressed in his POV chapter.

 

[Boaz]

or Lyanna and Aerys' son (I know you prefer this one), people who knew the secret and kept it would have possibly been in quite a lot of trouble. Perhaps, Ned was actually trying to ensure that Catelyn and his family would be protected from that by granting them full deniability of knowing anything of it and had unwittingly added that extra layer of protection due to Catelyn's hate towards the boy.

You know me so well!

You're probably right that Eddard would try to protect everyone, but if Varys whispered Eddard's treachery to Robert I don't know if that would have saved Catelyn. Robert's wrath was legendary. Her head might have still have been next to Eddard's, Jon's, Luwin's, Rodrik's, and Howland's. Eddard might have even gone after Benjen if he thought he could get away with it.

"What if" is a game that I like.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

You know me so well!

You're probably right that Eddard would try to protect everyone, but if Varys whispered Eddard's treachery to Robert I don't know if that would have saved Catelyn. Robert's wrath was legendary. Her head might have still have been next to Eddard's, Jon's, Luwin's, Rodrik's, and Howland's. Eddard might have even gone after Benjen if he thought he could get away with it.

"What if" is a game that I like.

Eddard always did have a misplaced sense of trust in Robert. He may have thought he could get Robert to listen long enough to clear his family or to persuade him that to spare Jon is a way to honour Lyanna. Not saying that Robert would do any of those things (mind you, I see him doing exactly what you mentioned), but you know what Eddard is like. He trusts in people.

 

[Boaz]

And maybe that's why Lyanna said "promise me" because she knew of Eddard's trust in Robert and she knew of Robert's ruthlessness.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

And maybe that's why Lyanna said "promise me" because she knew of Eddard's trust in Robert and she knew of Robert's ruthlessness.

Might be. She was pretty realistic about him unlike Eddard and his claims that Robert would change once Lyanna and he are wedded.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

You know me so well!

You're probably right that Eddard would try to protect everyone, but if Varys whispered Eddard's treachery to Robert I don't know if that would have saved Catelyn. Robert's wrath was legendary. Her head might have still have been next to Eddard's, Jon's, Luwin's, Rodrik's, and Howland's. Eddard might have even gone after Benjen if he thought he could get away with it.

"What if" is a game that I like.

He would never be able to find Howland Reed. Even the northerners don't know where grey water watch is.

 

[Deɑth.]

In all fairness, despite I hated the fact Podrick and Brienne were about to be killed by her, you can't really blame her for what she did.

Put yourself on her shoes. She's no longer a human, she doesn't feel love nor compassion (most likely) because everything went to **** in her life in around two years. His husbaned was labeled as a traitor and murdered, her home was sacked, his two little children dead along with her daughters (well, only Arya) and his first son, the one she loved the most, was betrayed and murdered in front of her own eyes.

Many of us would eventually stop feeling empathy towards others after said chain of events. Or would just choose suicide.

 

[Boaz]

Death, welcome!

I've become somewhat sympathetic towards Catelyn.

I don't blame Stoneheart for anything. She's a zombie. You don't blame zombies... You destroy them.