Forgotten Sword and Sorcery authors.

[dask]

Why is this something the big paperback publishing firms have never touched? Some kind of tacit stipulation against this ever being published other than as an out of reach specialty press item? Is it really that good that only the rich can afford to read it?

 

[J-Sun]

I don't know and maybe so. Actually, it just occurs to me that there may be some kind of legal problem where it can't be reprinted - though what sort of legal problem I can't really imagine. But otherwise, yeah, I have no idea. If there's no good reason, maybe we should all email Planet Stories (the book publishers) or Wildside or whoever and maybe talk them into reprinting it.

I mean, granted, a big paperback firm would be better but they probably wouldn't touch it these days.

 

[j d worthington]

Slightly off-topic (though not all that much, given the swashbuckling nature of much of the book) but something similar has happened with E. H. Visiak's Medusa. It did have a mass-market pb edition at one time, but even that thing goes for astronomical prices nowadays... and all others are simply out of sight... enough so to make the Centipede Press edition look quite economically frugal in comparison....

 

[Connavar]

"Offending"?

You felt offended by this person's comment?

No i meant its offending to Henry Kuttner that he is called a forgotten author of Sword and Sorcery when he is still remembered and is seen as Science fiction legend.

Sword and Sorcery was never his sub-genre, he wrote Elak because pulp publishers wanted any Conan copy they could get.

Just nitpick of mine because the thread name make it sound like he only wrote S&S and no one remembers his name today. When he has fans like us and many of his pulp era books in print.

 

[Fried Egg]

Maybe it's fair to say that Kuttner contribution to "Sword and Sorcery" has been forgotten?

Someone a lot more recent but who is close to becoming unfairly forgotten is Lawrence Watt Evans who wrote the excellent "Misenchanted Sword" and the "Lords of Dus" Tetralogy.

 

[nomadman]

Its mildly offending that you call Henry Kuttner a forgotten author. SFF classic author whose stories with CL Moore is pretty legendary, his comic detective stories, his Science Fantasy etc You know his S&S stories because of his name is respected.

His S&S stories i bought long ago thanks to Planet Stories.

To be fair to GOLLUM, he did make that post nearly six years ago, before the Paizo Planet series released much of Kuttner's more obscure work like the Elak series (which isn't really his strongest stuff anyway).

 

[nomadman]

I fully agree he is not read anywhere near to the level he deserves but calling him a forgotten sword and sorcery author (while I'm sure not at all meant to be offensive but rather trying to raise his profile) does sound very strange at least. "Authors whose sword and sorcery was a minor component of their careers and which work was long out of print for many years" is an unwieldy thread title, though.

The thread is perhaps misnamed. Forgotten S&S series or forgotten S&S characters might have been more appropriate, but it is what it is. Kuttner's Elak was notable for being one of the first overtly S&S series written after Howard's death. There were only four stories involving the character (though Kuttner wrote two more S&S tales involving another called Prince Gaynor or somesuch) and a lot of Howard's influence is pretty strong in all of them. Nonetheless there are glimpses of Kuttner's own style shining through, namely in the humor, the banter of the main characters and in his rather effective handling of the weird "super science" which again crops up in his far superior The Dark World. Of the Elak stories themselves, the best is probably The Spawn of Dagon, an S&S "house" story in which the title character attempts to sneak in and kill a wizard within his sorcerous abode. It was reprinted in the anthology Savage Heroes, which contains a number of very fine works including an excellent Viking tale by David Drake called The Barrow Troll.

 

[Connavar]

To be fair to GOLLUM, he did make that post nearly six years ago, before the Paizo Planet series released much of Kuttner's more obscure work like the Elak series (which isn't really his strongest stuff anyway).

The fact Elak series is obscure and slightly known only because of Kuttners name, other works is why i commented on the threads name make it sound worse than it is.


I know what Gollum meant with the title but i was reacting to the title making Kuttner sound like he was only S&S author who is forgotten today.

On the plus side it made us talk alot about his other works me and J-Sun atleast. Maybe we should make this Kuttner thread. After all CL Moore, Howard and co has their own threads in SFF classic forum.

 

[j d worthington]

I think it should remain more open than that, as there are forgotten S&S writers out there, such as Norvell W. Page and Clifford Ball who deserve a mention....

 

[dask]

What mags did Clifford Ball appear in? Weird Tales?

 

[nomadman]

What mags did Clifford Ball appear in? Weird Tales?

Yeah I believe so. I've only read one story of his called The Thief of Forthe (I think that's what it's called, haven't read much S&S for ages). I wouldn't say it was brilliant but it wasn't terrible either. An interesting curio. Don't really know much about Ball beyond that...

 

[nomadman]

L Sprague de Camp is pretty well known for his rivival of the Conan series, as well as his excellent collaborations with Fletcher Pratt, but he wrote some rather fine S&S in its own right. The Tritonian Ring, a novel set in his Pusadian universe (sort of a more scientifically plausible Hyborian Age) is worth tracking down. Freed from the trappings of his Conan work, which I don't think he ever fully understood or empathized with, it's a much more vigorous and authentic work of the imagination with some very interesting concepts, namely that iron is anathema to the gods, a concept which was used by Poul Anderson a few years later in his excellent mock-saga The Broken Sword (though whether he was influenced by de Camp's book or the earlier folkloric belief in the same I don't know).

 

[J-Sun]

This also brings up the Kuttner point. But, unlike Kuttner, it's probably fair to say de Camp really was primarily a fantasy author, though he is one of the few authors to have the double barrels of SFWA Grand Master and WFA Life Achievement. (I think the others are Ray Bradbury, Harlan Ellison, Philip Jose Farmer, Ursula K. Le Guin, Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, Andre Norton, Jack Vance, and Jack Williamson.)

He's also known for the time travel/alternate history novel Lest Darkness Fall, the stories and novels that range from science fiction to science fantasy (possibly all the way to sword and sorcery - dunno, haven't read enough) and make up the "Viagens Interplanetarias" series, including Rogue Queen and the "Z" books, and many excellent stories such as "A Gun for Dinosaur".

But anyway - I guess (assuming people read the whole thread) it's clear that the topic's changed to "author's whose sword and sorcery is (may be) forgotten", so I guess this is now off-topic.

As far as the topic, I've actually read The Tritonian Ring but, perhaps unsurprisingly, didn't much care for it - IIRC, it was fine, but just not my thing or so great that I had to love it regardless.

 

[j d worthington]

What mags did Clifford Ball appear in? Weird Tales?

Yep. Here's a list of his fantasy tales:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Ball

As for de Camp... he wrote a tremendous lot of fantasy, either with Fletcher Pratt, solo, or with his wife, Catherine. They vary in quality, but several of them are quite witty and urbane.

The Tritonian Ring is the only novel in a series:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusadian_series

Unfortunately, Sprague had a tendency to cannibalize himself, repeating sections from one story in another (or incorporating it virtually unchanged into a novel, etc.); which means reading a mass of his work together can become rather tedious. Better to take them a bit at a time....

 

[Extollager]

L Sprague de Camp is pretty well known for his rivival of the Conan series, as well as his excellent collaborations with Fletcher Pratt, but he wrote some rather fine S&S in its own right. The Tritonian Ring, a novel set in his Pusadian universe (sort of a more scientifically plausible Hyborian Age) is worth tracking down. Freed from the trappings of his Conan work, which I don't think he ever fully understood or empathized with, it's a much more vigorous and authentic work of the imagination with some very interesting concepts, namely that iron is anathema to the gods, a concept which was used by Poul Anderson a few years later in his excellent mock-saga The Broken Sword (though whether he was influenced by de Camp's book or the earlier folkloric belief in the same I don't know).

And on the other hand, I found Tritonian Ring unfinishable when I revisited it recently.

But de Camp himself was an unusually accessible pro; at least, we exchanged a number of messages back in the Seventies; he had no "need" to take the time to write to me that he did take. I appreciated that.

I also liked his Lovecraft biography more than some people did. It was Long's "Dreamer on the Night Side" one that I thought was pretty bad, what with all the stuff about FBL's came-over-on-the-Mayflower" ancestors. But, as I recall, when I commented critically about Long's book as compared to de Camp's in a letter to the latter, de Camp gently replied that he liked the Long book more than I did.

 

[j d worthington]

That sounds like him. I only met Sprague and his wife once, at a book signing. He was already becoming quite deaf (though he certainly hadn't lost that stentorian voice of his), but the three of us had a very nice -- even long -- chat. Very pleasant people, the both of them....

 

[Connavar]

L Sprague de Camp is pretty well known for his rivival of the Conan series, as well as his excellent collaborations with Fletcher Pratt, but he wrote some rather fine S&S in its own right. The Tritonian Ring, a novel set in his Pusadian universe (sort of a more scientifically plausible Hyborian Age) is worth tracking down. Freed from the trappings of his Conan work, which I don't think he ever fully understood or empathized with, it's a much more vigorous and authentic work of the imagination with some very interesting concepts, namely that iron is anathema to the gods, a concept which was used by Poul Anderson a few years later in his excellent mock-saga The Broken Sword (though whether he was influenced by de Camp's book or the earlier folkloric belief in the same I don't know).

You mean he is disliked by most Conan fans like me. Sure he did some good work to keep Howard stories alive as paperback but he did more bad than good, so many pastiche that most casual Conan fans still think to this day Conan is a Saga as pastiched by De Camp and co. They think the stupid version they did is like Howard version.

He poisoned the well for older fans but for new fans like me Howard has outlived and De Camp is mostly known for writing terrible biography calling Howard crazy mommy's boy and worse.

I can respect him only and only slightly because of his S&S with Pratt seems to have minor classic status but i wont go near it. There is nothing i dislike more than people that try to change literary history, authors history. He is damaged goods to me. You can be racist, murderer but that has nothing to with your writing or editing for me.

Im Howard purist yes.

 

[nomadman]

You mean he is disliked by most Conan fans like me. Sure he did some good work to keep Howard stories alive as paperback but he did more bad than good, so many pastiche that most casual Conan fans still think to this day Conan is a Saga as pastiched by De Camp and co. They think the stupid version they did is like Howard version.

He poisoned the well for older fans but for new fans like me Howard has outlived and De Camp is mostly known for writing terrible biography calling Howard crazy mommy's boy and worse.

I can respect him only and only slightly because of his S&S with Pratt seems to have minor classic status but i wont go near it. There is nothing i dislike more than people that try to change literary history, authors history. He is damaged goods to me. You can be racist, murderer but that has nothing to with your writing or editing for me.

Im Howard purist yes.

Well known as in the sense of widely known, not necessarily fondly remembered. I'm aware of the whole controversy regarding his pastiches, cannibalizations and rewriting of Howard's originals but really don't feel a need to make a big deal about it. The originals, unedited, are now easily available through the Del Rey/ Wandering Star collections, and the man himself is now dead, so it seems a little pointless to prolong the feud. Especially pointless, it seems, is relatively young fans who didn't live through the wilderness years carrying it on as though it were some tradition passed on by their elders. Correcting misconceptions as they arise, sure, I'm for that, but there's still far too much emotion and bad blood tied up in this whole thing that really should have died down a long time ago.

I'm not a de Camp fanboy, apologist or anything of that sort, but I recognise that he was a talented and influential writer with a fine body of original work to his name, who won numerous awards, and who helped pioneer an entire genre (alternate history). He was certainly not mostly known for just writing "terrible biography".

You really should check out the Enchanter series he did with Pratt. The first two novellas are classics of S&S (using a slightly woolly definition of the term) and very, very fun. More like Leiber than Howard, however, which might not be your thing.

 

[nomadman]

And on the other hand, I found Tritonian Ring unfinishable when I revisited it recently.

That's interesting. May I ask why, and what were your impressions when you first read it?

 

[nomadman]

Not forgotten, perhaps, but worth looking at:

Michael Shea - Nifft the Lean
John Brunner - The Traveler in Black
Karl Edward Wagner - The Kane Series
Richard L Tierney - The Simon Magus Series
Michael Swanwick - The Darger and Surplus stories
James Enge - The Morlock Ambrosius stories

To elaborate on some of my other picks.

Michael Shea - Nifft the Lean. An series of four novellas involving a master thief set in a Vancian/Leiberian/Klarkashtonian world of darkness and deceit. Wonderfully written and entertaining. I wrote a more detailed review of it here.

Karl Edward Wagner - Kane. I find this series a little overrated to be honest, given its underground reputation as a classic of S&S as well as its (excellent) general premise. Kane is a mad and immortal demi-god seeking meaning to his life throughout the ages of the Earth, none of which seem to be based on any actual historical period, disappointingly. The stories are mostly doom and gloom with the anti-hero Kane switching sides on a whim, becoming alternately hero and villain. The writing is serviceable and even rather Howardian in places, but the characters generally lack, er, character and the settings often seem rather bland and unmemorable. The short stories tend to be better than the novels, so that would be the place to start. I'd suggest Nightwinds, which last time I checked was still relatively affordable.

Michael Swanwick - Darger and Surplus. Rather modern and, thus far, short series of three short stories and a novel set in a post apocalyptic Earth, involving a couple of conmen and their often disastrous get-rich-quick schemes. Very Leiber-esque with a touch of Book of the New Sun about them. Not nearly old enough to be forgotten, but not as known as they should be either. So check 'em out. You can find them in Swanwick's collection The Dog Said Bow Wow.