What is with Martin and killing of characters? *spoilers*

[gill]

what is with g.rr.martin and killing off main characters, like first eddard, then renley, then robb n cat. who next will he kill off in a dance with dragons i wonder.

please dnt spoil the rest of a storm of swords and a feast for crows because im only just finished the chapter on lord frey killing robb and his mother.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

That's why I like the series personally.
If there's one thing the fantasy genre is rightly criticised for it's the cliche of the 'invunerable hero' - the character who, despite the seemingly insurmountable odds, manages to not only save the day but get the girl too.

I guess that's why it's called "fantasy" mind you

 

[Culhwch]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

You'd complain if everyone lived. Well, maybe you wouldn't, but I would.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

You've gotta love the tragic heroes. I find nothing wrong with offing a main character here and there. It's more engaging and more realistic that way. And people love it. Why do you think "Hamlet" and "Romeo and Juliet" are such popular hits?

 

[Brys]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

Maybe it's because Martin's a decent author, and realises that the good guys don't always win? It's this killing off major characters and the understanding that the lack of nostalgia that's always attracted me to the series. It's a nice contrast, especially for epic fantasy, which is otherwise pretty rare. (Outside of epic fantasy major character deaths happen much more commonly).

I guess that's why it's called "fantasy" mind you

Not really - is that unrestrained imagination, or subversion, in any form? It's less fantastical than a lot of decent realist literature. If a novel has nothing original, or individual, or imaginative about it, how can it seriously be called a fantasy? The elements of orcs, elves, dwarves etc in the Tolkienesque view, if used in an "epic fantasy" novel, doesn't actually make it fantasy (except, of course, in the publishing sense) - the reader knows what they are, and they may as well be real. Add in that sense of surprise, and suddenly it becomes a lot more original and fantastical. I think there's a case to be made for Martin writing fantasy in a much more true sense than Raymond E Feist for example, despite the level of magic in the latter being a lot higher.

 

[Mulch]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

I don't think that Martins killing of main characters is a new thing (see boromir) however writing from the POV of a character you are going to kill is unique to Martin. He manouvres the story so that you emathise with a character who is not necessarily the main one, for all we know at this point Jon Snow could be the main character in ASOIAF, then kills them off.

 

[genisis2]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

Very few fantasy novels have the courage to kill off characters that are popular. It may be disappionting to you that Eddard, Robb & his mother was killed off but how stunned were you when it happened & how many times did you go OH MY GAWD! I CANT BELIEVE HE DID THAT! Mr. Martin has this great ability of pulling the rug from under you.
Many of the fantasy novels that I have read were very predictable, most times I knew the outcome before finishing the book. I knew who would die & who would live live. In Martins books Im forever on my toes.
Despite what youve read I know your going to enjoy his books.
BTW I finally have gotten to jion a Martin Thread, Hi everyone!

 

[Balfa]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

It may be disappionting to you that Eddard, Robb & his mother was killed off but how stunned were you when it happened & how many times did you go OH MY GAWD! I CANT BELIEVE HE DID THAT!

I know what You mean. When I first read that, I was shocked. I mean, I knew he's gonna eventually kill another character but ...

That is one of many reasons I love ASOIAF. This is real world where any good deed is sufficiently punished. I'm sick and tired of those "save the world at the end and at the same time get the girl and discover that they are descendant of the ancient bloodline" heroes.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

ASOIAF's greatness increases with each and every major character George kills. Yes, it is "fantasy", but it's about a cataclysmic confrontation that engulfs an entire continent and effects the rest of the world. people die in situations like that. martin's war is far more realistic then any other I’ve ever read about in fiction, largely due to the fact that his characters die. "When you play the game of thrones you win or you die." - martin's character's have rarely won when they've played, and whereas a weaker author would have them survive, he culls them ruthlessly.

 

[gill]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

nah dont mind him killing of people but he always kills off my favourites lol it is more realistic this way tho

 

[Boaz]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

I'll try not to spoil anything for you... but caveat emptor.

I agree with those who enjoyed being surprised by characters dying. By allowing characters to die, Martin increases the sense of realism to the story. Characters that are at least somewhat involved in the story who have died include: Ned, Robb, Cat, Robert, Renly, Jeor, Viserys, Drogo, Craster, Beric, Vargo, Balon, Courtney Penrose, Robar, Mandon Moore, Rodrik, Jory, Lommy, Mycah, Lady, Grey Wind, Vardis Egen, and (with regards to the OP) characters from all corners of Westeros continue to die near the end of A Storm of Swords.

Martin's use of the distinct and indivual points of view to tell the whole story makes me constantly reevaluate who is and who is not a main character. Robert, Joffrey, Viserys, Drogo, Renly and Balon are all monarchs and thus central to the themes of the titles of A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings, yet we never got their POVs. Thus, none of them are main characters to the personal aspect of the story telling... though all of them could be called, at certain points, main characters in the overall story. On the other hand, Eddard, Catelyn, (name deleted), and perhaps Theon and (name deleted) as well, all had POVs and died. Upon their deaths, I wondered how the story they were telling would continue to be told. Martin picked up the slack by introducing new POVs, most notably Jaime's and Cersei's.

 

[Culhwch]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

Theon may not be dead, Boaz. Actually, I think it likely he yet lives.

 

[Balfa]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

Martin's use of the distinct and indivual points of view to tell the whole story makes me constantly reevaluate who is and who is not a main character.

I've read those books twice. And sometimes it makes me think that there is no main character. Naturally, there are some character that are more focused then others, but I'm more and more convinced that this is not classic story where everything reveals himself at the end. It's a story that matters for herself not the endings of characters.

When this serial comes to an end, I'm afraid that it will be shocking and we will curse Martin's name.

 

[genisis2]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

I've read those books twice. And sometimes it makes me think that there is no main character. Naturally, there are some character that are more focused then others, but I'm more and more convinced that this is not classic story where everything reveals himself at the end. It's a story that matters for herself not the endings of characters.

When this serial comes to an end, I'm afraid that it will be shocking and we will curse Martin's name.

Interesting POV but I will disagree because Martin has headings for main characters were as Robb or Eddard did not and if I were more astute I would have noticed this in the begining. Not to say that he wont kill off someone of importance because this writer in particular always does something surprising in his books.

 

[Adasunshine]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

Interesting POV but I will disagree because Martin has headings for main characters were as Robb or Eddard did not and if I were more astute I would have noticed this in the begining. Not to say that he wont kill off someone of importance because this writer in particular always does something surprising in his books.

Eddard had a POV all the way through AGOT! Robb has never had a POV.

Just pointing this out as it sounds like you think Eddard didn't have a POV, sorry if misunderstood!

xx

 

[ChasenFate]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

Martin killing off Ned and Rob is what sets him apart. He can get rid of a main character and still keep you reading, the way he makes you chage your opinion(at least me) of someone like Jamie as you read more about them, is just great.

 

[genisis2]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

Eddard had a POV all the way through AGOT! Robb has never had a POV.

Just pointing this out as it sounds like you think Eddard didn't have a POV, sorry if misunderstood!

xx

Thankyou Adasunshine I stand corrected. I did not check my facts as I am at work.Gawd I hate being wrong

 

[Boaz]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

Martin killing off Ned and Rob is what sets him apart.

Now if he'd only kill off Jon, then he'd be in a league of his own.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

I'm not really convinced that GRRM has done anything different or pioneering with the use of character death in his works - essentially, he's created a wide theatre of secondary characters, so their life and death isn't so huge and issue - the fact that he's created such a huge cast means that it's inevitable that he's going to kill some of them during a story involving protracted civil war.

The main protagonists in ASoFaI are characters such as Jon, Bran, Daenerys, Arya, Sansa, and Tyrion. If GRRM were to kill these then that would be more daring.

Ned was obviously marked for death in the very first scene in Game of Thrones after the prologue - we saw the symbolism - it was no surprise to see him killed.

The *only* major character death IMO is Catelyn - but frankly, she was already spent as a character by book 2 and there seemed little she could do to impact the major plot arcs - she was a bystander. From a writing point of view, it made sense to kill her.

As for other deaths, such as Robb, Renley, and others - these were not Point of View characters - ie, they were not protagonists, so they were always expendable anyway.

Overall, I don;t see GRRM's use of character death particularly different to any other novel - it's simply that he has such a huge cast that you see more names killed.

Now, if he started killing off Bran, Jon, Arya, etc, then that would be more pioneering, though I suspect disappointing for many readers.

 

[genisis2]

Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*

I'm not really convinced that GRRM has done anything different or pioneering with the use of character death in his works - essentially, he's created a wide theatre of secondary characters, so their life and death isn't so huge and issue - the fact that he's created such a huge cast means that it's inevitable that he's going to kill some of them during a story involving protracted civil war.





When reading the first book I dont believe that most of us would have come to a reasonable conclusion that Eddard Stark was a secondary character. I know I didnt . You may be correct in the fact that he hasnt done anything different in the use of character death in his work perhaps he just does it better. At this moment I cant think of any secondary characters death that have affected me in the way Martin's has. I cant think of any writer who has set up a character to meet a tragic ending that has left me reeling and a little stunned.