What is with Martin and killing of characters? *spoilers*
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Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
It's not so much that Ned is a secondary character - but as before, GRRM makes it plain in the first scene of Game of Thrones that the death of the direwolf and the stag, relate directly to Ned and Robert. He emphasises this by associating each of the children with a direwolf in symbolic way. So the death of Ned wasn't really surprising.
I'm not saying that GRRM's character deaths are not going to affect the reader - and the fact that he's tried to spread the Point of View use across a number of characters means he's trying to blur the distinction of who is and is not a protagonist, IMO.
However, the point I was making is that GRRM is not killing characters who are essential to the story, so he's not really doing anything particularly different with regards to character death.
Simply my 2 cents.
genisis2 said:
It's not so much that Ned is a secondary character - but as before, GRRM makes it plain in the first scene of Game of Thrones that the death of the direwolf and the stag, relate directly to Ned and Robert. He emphasises this by associating each of the children with a direwolf in symbolic way. So the death of Ned wasn't really surprising.
I'm not saying that GRRM's character deaths are not going to affect the reader - and the fact that he's tried to spread the Point of View use across a number of characters means he's trying to blur the distinction of who is and is not a protagonist, IMO.
However, the point I was making is that GRRM is not killing characters who are essential to the story, so he's not really doing anything particularly different with regards to character death.
Simply my 2 cents.
Winters_Sorrow
Well-Known Member
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
A good point Brian, but how can you tell which characters are integral to the plot until the story gets into full swing?
I agree that if he truly wants to shock he should kill someone like Sansa or Dany who, though peripheral are currently considered "safe".
It takes a brave author to do though, as this has the potential to alienate the readers. I know people who still haven't forgiven him for Ned, nevermind Cat/Robb!
A good point Brian, but how can you tell which characters are integral to the plot until the story gets into full swing?
I agree that if he truly wants to shock he should kill someone like Sansa or Dany who, though peripheral are currently considered "safe".
It takes a brave author to do though, as this has the potential to alienate the readers. I know people who still haven't forgiven him for Ned, nevermind Cat/Robb!
AryaUnderfoot
AryaUnderfoot
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
This is true. The deaths of the characters, and not the characters themselves, are essential to the story. The difference with Martin's writing is that he allows us to get very comfortable with the characters before offing them. And I've found that when I come across any sort of foreshadowing in his books, I don't see it as such until I've come to the event that has been foreshadowed. The dead direwolf with the stag's antler in her throat meant nothing to me until Ned died.
I said:
This is true. The deaths of the characters, and not the characters themselves, are essential to the story. The difference with Martin's writing is that he allows us to get very comfortable with the characters before offing them. And I've found that when I come across any sort of foreshadowing in his books, I don't see it as such until I've come to the event that has been foreshadowed. The dead direwolf with the stag's antler in her throat meant nothing to me until Ned died.
Boaz
Happy Easter!
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Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
The trick is to see the importance and relevance of the foreshadowing at the moment it occurs. In a long and convoluted story such as this, I find it nearly impossible to discern foreshadowing. Yet when I reread passages, I often find them full of obvious clues! Of course, I admit I did not figure out that Bruce Willis' character was a ghost in The Sixth Sense until his own character figured it out. I'm not the most observant person in the world.
I, Brian, I agree that the use of the POVs has blurred the lines between protagonist and antagonist. I find that he started with good POVs and slipped into the blurred area and then finally went to the antagonistic POVs. Imo, Ned, Jon, Bran, Sansa, Brienne, Sam, Davos, Areoh, and Dany are all protagonist's POVs... Tyrion, Jaime, Arya, Victarion, Euron, Asha, Arys, and Aeron are blurred, showing good and bad... while Cersei and Theon are the only truly antagonistic POVs.
Not all of these POVs started and ended in the same category. Cat, Arya, Jaime, and Tyrion have all shifted between our definitions. I also think that Dany, Euron, Sansa, and Arya all have potential to change categories as well. For instance, Arya started out as a protagonist, then she switched to just a storyteller, now she seems almost amoral... is she still one of the good guys or will she become a cruel avenging killer?
The trick is to see the importance and relevance of the foreshadowing at the moment it occurs. In a long and convoluted story such as this, I find it nearly impossible to discern foreshadowing. Yet when I reread passages, I often find them full of obvious clues! Of course, I admit I did not figure out that Bruce Willis' character was a ghost in The Sixth Sense until his own character figured it out. I'm not the most observant person in the world.
I, Brian, I agree that the use of the POVs has blurred the lines between protagonist and antagonist. I find that he started with good POVs and slipped into the blurred area and then finally went to the antagonistic POVs. Imo, Ned, Jon, Bran, Sansa, Brienne, Sam, Davos, Areoh, and Dany are all protagonist's POVs... Tyrion, Jaime, Arya, Victarion, Euron, Asha, Arys, and Aeron are blurred, showing good and bad... while Cersei and Theon are the only truly antagonistic POVs.
Not all of these POVs started and ended in the same category. Cat, Arya, Jaime, and Tyrion have all shifted between our definitions. I also think that Dany, Euron, Sansa, and Arya all have potential to change categories as well. For instance, Arya started out as a protagonist, then she switched to just a storyteller, now she seems almost amoral... is she still one of the good guys or will she become a cruel avenging killer?
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
I believe the scecret is simpler than that. I think Martin is, either intentionally or not, creating a work that flows my like reality than like most works we read. Take most other works, LOTR for example. You have all of the critical parts set out. The antagonist, protagonist, rising, falling, climax, etc..
So in a way I am agreeing with you, her has blurred the lines between the two, but I would love to ask him if that was a goal he set out with when he began writing.
I will disagree with you on this point:
Eddard was not imposrtant to the story because he bit it in the beginning of the series. Robb grew into a character we started to cheer for, even with his realistic mistakes, and I do not know of many people who thought he was really going to get killed off. Granted we knew that SOB Frey was up to something. Robb was extremely critical to the story.
Look at it from this view, if Martin had killed off Arya at KL she would'nt have been an important character either.
Eddard and Catelyn were POV characters.but I don't believe that POV characters are the only important ones in the series either. Renly, Robert, Tywin, Lysa; all of these chracters could have been POV characters before the kicked it and we would never have missed a beat. Personally I am glad we do not have 40 POV.
Just 2 more cents from me
*snow*
I said:
I believe the scecret is simpler than that. I think Martin is, either intentionally or not, creating a work that flows my like reality than like most works we read. Take most other works, LOTR for example. You have all of the critical parts set out. The antagonist, protagonist, rising, falling, climax, etc..
So in a way I am agreeing with you, her has blurred the lines between the two, but I would love to ask him if that was a goal he set out with when he began writing.
I will disagree with you on this point:
I said:
Eddard was not imposrtant to the story because he bit it in the beginning of the series. Robb grew into a character we started to cheer for, even with his realistic mistakes, and I do not know of many people who thought he was really going to get killed off. Granted we knew that SOB Frey was up to something. Robb was extremely critical to the story.
Look at it from this view, if Martin had killed off Arya at KL she would'nt have been an important character either.
Eddard and Catelyn were POV characters.but I don't believe that POV characters are the only important ones in the series either. Renly, Robert, Tywin, Lysa; all of these chracters could have been POV characters before the kicked it and we would never have missed a beat. Personally I am glad we do not have 40 POV.
Just 2 more cents from me
*snow*
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
I hope I didnt come across as arguementitive. Fully respect and understand your point and in agreement with you. As much as GRRM forshadowed using the symbolism of the stag and direwolf I was still surprised or rather I was surprised by the way it happened it was deftly done. Nope I lied I was totally surprised now that I think about it. It was so long ago when I read the first book Im pretty sure I thought he was going to bite at the Wall.
I said:
I hope I didnt come across as arguementitive. Fully respect and understand your point and in agreement with you. As much as GRRM forshadowed using the symbolism of the stag and direwolf I was still surprised or rather I was surprised by the way it happened it was deftly done. Nope I lied I was totally surprised now that I think about it. It was so long ago when I read the first book Im pretty sure I thought he was going to bite at the Wall.
Last edited:
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
There was a whole bunch I wanted to add But I buggered it up I cant edit it the damn thing - sheesh.genisis2 said:
gill
daemon hunter
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
im confused is cat really dead i just read the eppilogue from a storm of swords
SPOILER
and she was nodding her head at some person who was there at the time of the red wedding so whats going on. dont go into to much detail but is she a weight(sp) thing dont spoil much of feast for crows getting that soon.
SPOILER OVER
im confused is cat really dead i just read the eppilogue from a storm of swords
SPOILER
and she was nodding her head at some person who was there at the time of the red wedding so whats going on. dont go into to much detail but is she a weight(sp) thing dont spoil much of feast for crows getting that soon.
SPOILER OVER
Raven
Corn!
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
Interesting subject. Side issue first of all:
Robert, Joffrey, Viserys, Drogo, Renly and Balon are all monarchs and thus central to the themes of the titles of A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings, yet we never got their POVs.
GRRM has said that he doesn't like to write POVs for monarchs and rulers as a general rule, he finds it more interesting to write the 'little people'. IIRC, this was why he created Davos, because he didn't want a Stannis POV.
(The obvious exception is Dany, but c'mon, no way to avoid that one.)
There is a quote about this somewhere, I'll try to find it.
ON the subject of killing characters in general, GRRM has commented a couple of times to this effect:
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1436/
The quote GRRM usually deploys is 'playing for keeps'. Ned's death was very much in this vein. Meant to show readers, not so much that no-one is safe (it's impossible to do that: you can't doubt, for example, that Dany will make it to the end), but that very few people are, and they are not necessarily the ones you assume.
In a sense there is a bit of sleight of hand here - we assume Ned is a main character in the series because he is a main character in AGOT. But we're wrong in that assumption. Even Cat and Robb's deaths in ASOS aren't 'main character' deaths, to be strictly honest. At this stage, the main characters are clearly Jon, Bran and Dany: it's no longer possible to disguise the fact that they are safe at least until the last book. Their plotlines are too obviously going to form the spine of the series.
But the Ned, Cat and Robb deaths do make us restrict that list of 'safe' characters. Can we really say he wouldn't kill Arya, Sansa, Jaime, or even Tyrion? Let alone Sam, Stannis, Sandor, Varys, Jorah, Melisandre, or LF? He probably wouldn't: but definitely?
As well as the main characters, of course, there's a healthy attrition of 'secondary' characters such as Tywin, Joff, Viserys, Drogo, and Jeor, which makes us wonder about the fate of people like Margaery and the other Tyrells, Asha, the Reeds, or Barristan. And the same for 'minor' characters too. Just enough attrition to make things uncertain. Not a bloodbath, by any means: no killing for the sake of it, either. But just enough to make us realise he's playing for keeps.
Interesting subject. Side issue first of all:
Robert, Joffrey, Viserys, Drogo, Renly and Balon are all monarchs and thus central to the themes of the titles of A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings, yet we never got their POVs.
GRRM has said that he doesn't like to write POVs for monarchs and rulers as a general rule, he finds it more interesting to write the 'little people'. IIRC, this was why he created Davos, because he didn't want a Stannis POV.
(The obvious exception is Dany, but c'mon, no way to avoid that one.)
There is a quote about this somewhere, I'll try to find it.
ON the subject of killing characters in general, GRRM has commented a couple of times to this effect:
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1436/
The quote GRRM usually deploys is 'playing for keeps'.
Ned's death was very much in this vein. Meant to show readers, not so much that no-one is safe (it's impossible to do that: you can't doubt, for example, that Dany will make it to the end), but that very few people are, and they are not necessarily the ones you assume. In a sense there is a bit of sleight of hand here - we assume Ned is a main character in the series because he is a main character in AGOT. But we're wrong in that assumption. Even Cat and Robb's deaths in ASOS aren't 'main character' deaths, to be strictly honest. At this stage, the main characters are clearly Jon, Bran and Dany: it's no longer possible to disguise the fact that they are safe at least until the last book. Their plotlines are too obviously going to form the spine of the series.
But the Ned, Cat and Robb deaths do make us restrict that list of 'safe' characters. Can we really say he wouldn't kill Arya, Sansa, Jaime, or even Tyrion? Let alone Sam, Stannis, Sandor, Varys, Jorah, Melisandre, or LF? He probably wouldn't: but definitely?
As well as the main characters, of course, there's a healthy attrition of 'secondary' characters such as Tywin, Joff, Viserys, Drogo, and Jeor, which makes us wonder about the fate of people like Margaery and the other Tyrells, Asha, the Reeds, or Barristan. And the same for 'minor' characters too. Just enough attrition to make things uncertain. Not a bloodbath, by any means: no killing for the sake of it, either. But just enough to make us realise he's playing for keeps.
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
Now this is something I have thought about. To use your reasoning, it probably won't happen, but I am still not completely comfortable. I think Dany could still die later. If we find out that Jon is Rheagar's son that would make Danearys' survival less certain, or Jon's. Do I really think it would happen, probably not, but then again we would not really need two Targaryan hanging around as necessity.
The more important question I think would be...IF Martin were to kill off Danearys (or Jon) in the next book would that make her (his) character less of a "main" character.
I just think it is unfair to say Ned was not a main character becuase he bit it early in the book. I could make some blasphemous references to the New Testament of the Bible/history of the world according to Christianity, but I do not want to get struck by lightning!
But seriously how long does a character have to exist in the book to make them a main character???? At what point does their demise metamorphose from wanton secondary character assassination to essential plot event????
Lastly, what then is the list of "main" (the ones that are not only mostly safe) characters:
Danearys
Jon
....
????
the dragons????
Who else would you add to that list?
Not trying to be obnoxious, but more or less playing devil's advocate, and would really like to see who you add to that list...
Raven said:
Now this is something I have thought about. To use your reasoning, it probably won't happen, but I am still not completely comfortable. I think Dany could still die later. If we find out that Jon is Rheagar's son that would make Danearys' survival less certain, or Jon's. Do I really think it would happen, probably not, but then again we would not really need two Targaryan hanging around as necessity.
The more important question I think would be...IF Martin were to kill off Danearys (or Jon) in the next book would that make her (his) character less of a "main" character.
I just think it is unfair to say Ned was not a main character becuase he bit it early in the book. I could make some blasphemous references to the New Testament of the Bible/history of the world according to Christianity, but I do not want to get struck by lightning!
But seriously how long does a character have to exist in the book to make them a main character???? At what point does their demise metamorphose from wanton secondary character assassination to essential plot event????
Lastly, what then is the list of "main" (the ones that are not only mostly safe) characters:
Danearys
Jon
....
????
the dragons????
Who else would you add to that list?
Not trying to be obnoxious, but more or less playing devil's advocate, and would really like to see who you add to that list...
Raven
Corn!
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
JohnS: as I sort of indicated above, I think there's a distinction between being a main character in one book of the series and being a main character in the series as a whole. Ned clearly is one of the most significant characters in AGOT, so he is a main character in the book.
One could also argue that by virtue of being a main character in one book, he is in effect a main character in the series. That seems a fair point to me.
Particularly as to some extent these lines are arbitrary. Is Tywin a main character or a secondary one? How about Robert? Davos? Cat? Jaime?
There are three characters I think are clearly going to make it to the final book, purely because their plotlines since AGOT make little sense if they don't. That's Jon, Dany and Bran. Each is clearly on an arc that will lead them to climactic roles.
Jon (we suspect) is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, leader of the NW, etc. and likely to be the PwwP. Bran's mystical role is similarly going to be obviously crucial to the resolution, so he must make it to the end. Most of all, Dany's appearance in AGOT, way before she interacts with the rest of the characters, and the fact that GRRM makes her an exception to his 'no monarch POVs' rule, makes no real sense if her plotline is not absolutely central to the story.
Indeed, in all three cases the investment in their stories is such that I can see no dramatic payoff if they don't make it to the climax. It would be an anticlimax for any of these three to die before then.
They're not guaranteed to survive the last book, mind you. GRRM has said the ending will be 'bittersweet'.
After that, I think everyone is fair game: most of them will probably make it to the last book, but there are no guarantees. Some think that Tyrion, Arya, and Sansa are guaranteed to make it: I can't get that far, I think there is small chance they'll die, but not NO chance.
JohnS: as I sort of indicated above, I think there's a distinction between being a main character in one book of the series and being a main character in the series as a whole. Ned clearly is one of the most significant characters in AGOT, so he is a main character in the book.
One could also argue that by virtue of being a main character in one book, he is in effect a main character in the series. That seems a fair point to me.
Particularly as to some extent these lines are arbitrary. Is Tywin a main character or a secondary one? How about Robert? Davos? Cat? Jaime?
There are three characters I think are clearly going to make it to the final book, purely because their plotlines since AGOT make little sense if they don't. That's Jon, Dany and Bran. Each is clearly on an arc that will lead them to climactic roles.
Jon (we suspect) is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, leader of the NW, etc. and likely to be the PwwP. Bran's mystical role is similarly going to be obviously crucial to the resolution, so he must make it to the end. Most of all, Dany's appearance in AGOT, way before she interacts with the rest of the characters, and the fact that GRRM makes her an exception to his 'no monarch POVs' rule, makes no real sense if her plotline is not absolutely central to the story.
Indeed, in all three cases the investment in their stories is such that I can see no dramatic payoff if they don't make it to the climax. It would be an anticlimax for any of these three to die before then.
They're not guaranteed to survive the last book, mind you.
GRRM has said the ending will be 'bittersweet'.After that, I think everyone is fair game: most of them will probably make it to the last book, but there are no guarantees. Some think that Tyrion, Arya, and Sansa are guaranteed to make it: I can't get that far, I think there is small chance they'll die, but not NO chance.
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
The thing about Jon is - I know there is a lot of secrecy about his mother, but it is stated many times throughout the books that there is an extremely strong resemblence between Jon and Eddard Stark both in looks and demeanour, unless I've missed something huge and gaping I can't imagine anyone else being his father. I'm a newbie to the forums so it could be that I'm mistaken about some of the lineages within the books
Flora
The thing about Jon is - I know there is a lot of secrecy about his mother, but it is stated many times throughout the books that there is an extremely strong resemblence between Jon and Eddard Stark both in looks and demeanour, unless I've missed something huge and gaping I can't imagine anyone else being his father. I'm a newbie to the forums so it could be that I'm mistaken about some of the lineages within the books
Flora
Dolorous Edd
Ever the optimist
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
Yes but it also often stated how of all Catelyn's trueborn children only Arya really looks like Ned, and how she and Jon look alike. Ned later goes on to tell Arya how much she resembles his sister Lyana. So, It could very well be that Jon Takes after his mother rather then his father. As for their personalities, well, Jon worships his father. It's only natural that he would ttry to emulate him and aquire the same attitudes and manerism's etc.
Flora said:The thing about Jon is - I know there is a lot of secrecy about his mother, but it is stated many times throughout the books that there is an extremely strong resemblence between Jon and Eddard Stark both in looks and demeanour, unless I've missed something huge and gaping I can't imagine anyone else being his father. I'm a newbie to the forums so it could be that I'm mistaken about some of the lineages within the books
Flora
Yes but it also often stated how of all Catelyn's trueborn children only Arya really looks like Ned, and how she and Jon look alike. Ned later goes on to tell Arya how much she resembles his sister Lyana. So, It could very well be that Jon Takes after his mother rather then his father. As for their personalities, well, Jon worships his father. It's only natural that he would ttry to emulate him and aquire the same attitudes and manerism's etc.
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
I guess this was mostly my frustration with some of the responses. It seems that people were writing characters off as not important due to the brevity of their existence. I agree with everything you have said, I am just pointing out that a character can still be an important or daresay main character even if they are only so in one book.
The OP was basically about Martin killing off important "main" characters with reckless abandon. When Robb was killed off (and Ned and Tywin for that matter) when reading the story for the first time, I held my breath wondering who he would put on the block next. In hindsight foreshadowing was there with the stag and the wolf in the beginning of aGoT, we say we should have know about Robb because Martin had developed Frey as a double crossing character with a real bitter streak. Hindsight in the case of reading aSoIaF is not 20/20 it is more 20/40! I wonder what we will stand out as missed or over-analyzed when the series is over.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, the money is on those three making it to the end simply from the investment stanpoint of his writing. And I would also conceed that those three are the "main" characters of the series because the story revolves around them for the most part.
I agree with you here as well. These characters are slightly less "main" characters but are still extremely important to the story, but their importance may come as a well timed death to stir the events.
Anyway I will not post to this again, I do think that Martin is generous with the demise of hs more important characters, and that is a quality that I like in his writing. You should read Sandkings if you haven't!
Raven said:JohnS: as I sort of indicated above, I think there's a distinction between being a main character in one book of the series and being a main character in the series as a whole. Ned clearly is one of the most significant characters in AGOT, so he is a main character in the book.
One could also argue that by virtue of being a main character in one book, he is in effect a main character in the series. That seems a fair point to me.
I guess this was mostly my frustration with some of the responses. It seems that people were writing characters off as not important due to the brevity of their existence. I agree with everything you have said, I am just pointing out that a character can still be an important or daresay main character even if they are only so in one book.
The OP was basically about Martin killing off important "main" characters with reckless abandon. When Robb was killed off (and Ned and Tywin for that matter) when reading the story for the first time, I held my breath wondering who he would put on the block next. In hindsight foreshadowing was there with the stag and the wolf in the beginning of aGoT, we say we should have know about Robb because Martin had developed Frey as a double crossing character with a real bitter streak. Hindsight in the case of reading aSoIaF is not 20/20 it is more 20/40! I wonder what we will stand out as missed or over-analyzed when the series is over.
Raven said:
I wholeheartedly agree with you, the money is on those three making it to the end simply from the investment stanpoint of his writing. And I would also conceed that those three are the "main" characters of the series because the story revolves around them for the most part.
Raven said:They're not guaranteed to survive the last book, mind you.
After that, I think everyone is fair game: most of them will probably make it to the last book, but there are no guarantees. Some think that Tyrion, Arya, and Sansa are guaranteed to make it: I can't get that far, I think there is small chance they'll die, but not NO chance.
I agree with you here as well. These characters are slightly less "main" characters but are still extremely important to the story, but their importance may come as a well timed death to stir the events.
Anyway I will not post to this again, I do think that Martin is generous with the demise of hs more important characters, and that is a quality that I like in his writing. You should read Sandkings if you haven't!
AryaUnderfoot
AryaUnderfoot
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
If Bran doesn't survive I'll be heartbroken and probably throw a mighty fit.Raven said:They're not guaranteed to survive the last book, mind you.
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
We will try our best to console you!
I would agree,but I think it would be a safe bet that out of the big three, to sum up Raven's words, at least one is to die. My money is on one of 2 situations: Bran lives and Jon and Dany die OR Jon and Dany live on and Bran bites it. I do not have any real foundation other than that is the vibe I get when I think about the ending, but then again Martin is rich, famous, and a best selling author and I sit up late at night watching...well you get the point. I probably do not know what I am talking about.
Anyway, for the record Bran is turning into one of my favorite chracters in the re-reading of the series. I am with you AU and I hope he is still standing...well figuratively, at the end.
AryaUnderfoot said:
We will try our best to console you!
I would agree,but I think it would be a safe bet that out of the big three, to sum up Raven's words, at least one is to die. My money is on one of 2 situations: Bran lives and Jon and Dany die OR Jon and Dany live on and Bran bites it. I do not have any real foundation other than that is the vibe I get when I think about the ending, but then again Martin is rich, famous, and a best selling author and I sit up late at night watching...well you get the point. I probably do not know what I am talking about.
Anyway, for the record Bran is turning into one of my favorite chracters in the re-reading of the series. I am with you AU and I hope he is still standing...well figuratively, at the end.
TK-421
I Do Not Sow
Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
Not to complicate your arguments any further as I noticed you and Raven had a fairly lenghty debate already, but woudl it not be a viable theory that there are in fact 3 Targaryens around? The third being Darkstar who vanishes in Dorne after the attack on Myrcella and whom many have theorized could be the baby Aegon???
JohnSnow said:
Not to complicate your arguments any further as I noticed you and Raven had a fairly lenghty debate already, but woudl it not be a viable theory that there are in fact 3 Targaryens around? The third being Darkstar who vanishes in Dorne after the attack on Myrcella and whom many have theorized could be the baby Aegon???
Boaz
Happy Easter!
- Joined
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Re: what is with martin and killing of characters *spoilers*
TK, This has been discussed a little bit, but I don't remember where. I think someone wrote that Martin, in an interview, verbally confirmed Aegon's death... but I could be misremembering.
I need to reread AFFC, but my impression was that Darkstar was in his early twenties. Aegon, if he's still alive, would be about eighteen.
Back to Ned, I don't wanna re-argue anything, just thinking about him... Ned is our only real connection to Robert (until Cersei's POV), Littlefinger (until Tyrion goes to court), and Cersei (until Jaime's POV starts), he sets up the POV's for Jon, Bran, Catelyn, Arya, and Sansa, and without Ned we'd know nothing of Lyanna until Meera starts telling stories. Imo, Ned is the foundational character for ASOIAF.
TK, This has been discussed a little bit, but I don't remember where. I think someone wrote that Martin, in an interview, verbally confirmed Aegon's death... but I could be misremembering.
I need to reread AFFC, but my impression was that Darkstar was in his early twenties. Aegon, if he's still alive, would be about eighteen.
Back to Ned, I don't wanna re-argue anything, just thinking about him... Ned is our only real connection to Robert (until Cersei's POV), Littlefinger (until Tyrion goes to court), and Cersei (until Jaime's POV starts), he sets up the POV's for Jon, Bran, Catelyn, Arya, and Sansa, and without Ned we'd know nothing of Lyanna until Meera starts telling stories. Imo, Ned is the foundational character for ASOIAF.
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