The Clegane Brothers

[Boaz]

I don't know of a more pertinent topic in the GRRM forum. What does it mean to be a man? To survive? To serve? To love? To protect? To do justice? To love mercy? To walk humbly?

I agree there is a difference in taking pleasure from other's pain and causing pain in order to survive. Gregor is a sociopath. He feels nothing for anyone... he views others as objects. I admit to exaggerating that Sandor is a psycho. But did Sandor not enjoy being cruel to Sansa? Did he not relish the murder of Mycah?... a defenceless child.

Can we justify everything? "The Queen said I could kill him." "The King told me to kill you, so sorry." "The things I do for love."

Where is personal honor when your boss has none?

Yes, Sandor was just carrying out orders. But isn't that an excuse? When Eddard was tasked with murdering a child, he did not rationalize it as "carrying out orders"... Eddard told Robert to stick his immoral orders up his ample behind. And Eddard kept his honor.

Eddard seems to be alone in trying to remain honorable in his own eyes and everyone else be damned.

When faced with death by hanging or else betraying someone under a banner of peace, both Brienne and Jon chose to become treacherous assassins.

So Sandor killed Mycah at Cersei's behest... and because he was Joffrey's sworn sword. Do the ends justify the means? Does Sandor's survival justify butchering the butcher's boy? It's easy for me to sit here and type this... no one has ever put a gun to my head and said, "Shoot him or I'll shoot you." I pray to God that never happens, but if it did I pray I'll have the courage to say, "Shoot me."

In The Two Towers, Book Three, Chapter Two: The Riders of Rohan, Eomer and his men come across the three hunters. Middle-earth is on the brink of world war and the Rohirrim are wary of strangers in their lands.

"I had forgotten that, said Eomer... "How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"
"
As he ever has judged," said Aragorn. "Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."

"True indeed," said Eomer... "Yet I am not free to do all as I would. It is against our law to let strangers wander at will in our land, until the king himself shall give them leave... This is my choice. You may go; and what is more I will lend you horses. This only I ask: when your quest is achieved, or is proved vain, return with the horses... Thus shall you prove to him [Theoden] that I have not misjudged. In this I place myself and maybe my very life, in the keeping of your good faith. Do not fail."

"I will not," said Aragorn.

I know this is fiction, but Eomer makes a judgement call knowing his life may be forfeit to Theoden. And when we next hear of Eomer, he's in the king's dungeons! But the crux of the passage lies in Aragorn's words, "It is a man's part to discern" good and evil. Just because someone in authority says it is lawful and necessary does not make it good.

Thanks for bearing with me, friends. I do enjoy striving for clarity... even though my posts are not always coherent.

 

[Koopa]

Problem with that, in most western countries the law of authority is often better than the one coaxed up by individuals. And with western countries i mean most of the European ones. I still can't understand what the government in some states in America are up to.

 

[Tywin]

Yes, Sandor was just carrying out orders. But isn't that an excuse? When Eddard was tasked with murdering a child, he did not rationalize it as "carrying out orders"... Eddard told Robert to stick his immoral orders up his ample behind. And Eddard kept his honor.

Eddard seems to be alone in trying to remain honorable in his own eyes and everyone else be damned.

I would note that Eddard was the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North with all that power standing behind him. Men with the ability to wage war generally feel that they have the backing to make some tough calls like that.

The real crux of the matter is that Ned's honor and doing what was right was more important to him than his own life. Eddard turned against his honor quickly however when he felt that Sansa's life was threatened, and so he gave a false confession on the Steps of the Sept of Baelor.

What does Sandor have? He has the reputation of his family who earned their title only a generation before through loyal service. The families of Westeros seem to put a lot of stock by the animals that they take as their sigils, and his is the three hounds of house Clegane. Hounds are loyal, steadfast, animals that tirelessly and visciously pursue the prey that their master set them after.

One other note, you asked "Does Sandor not enjoy being cruel to Sansa?" and I would answer that he certainly does not seem to enjoy that.

 

[Timba]

I would note that Eddard was the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North with all that power standing behind him. Men with the ability to wage war generally feel that they have the backing to make some tough calls like that.

The real crux of the matter is that Ned's honor and doing what was right was more important to him than his own life. Eddard turned against his honor quickly however when he felt that Sansa's life was threatened, and so he gave a false confession on the Steps of the Sept of Baelor.

What does Sandor have? He has the reputation of his family who earned their title only a generation before through loyal service. The families of Westeros seem to put a lot of stock by the animals that they take as their sigils, and his is the three hounds of house Clegane. Hounds are loyal, steadfast, animals that tirelessly and visciously pursue the prey that their master set them after.

One other note, you asked "Does Sandor not enjoy being cruel to Sansa?" and I would answer that he certainly does not seem to enjoy that.

I really agree with this, Ned was an order giver, Sandor an order taker. Two totally different psychologies involved. Not saying they have to be mutually exclusive but when you have always been an order taker finding the ground within yourself to stand and protest, particularly when it may cost you everything, would be very difficult, not impossible but very, very difficult. I think that is why we see a bit of Sandor when he can try to help Sansa and the hound is in charge when he is being observed by those with control of his life. It is this complexity of his characters that I think makes GRRM's work so entertaining.

 

[The Imp]

There's a really important point that no one has yet touched on as of yet- You don't pick Samwell Tarley to go out and lead men to rape, pllage, loot plunder and destroy. Sam's father actually forced him to take the path that was ultimately the best one for him because he was terribly suited to succeed Randyll. Men are usually picked because the have a certain aptitude for the task they are being chosen for. When you want villages burned, women (and children?) raped, men killed, crops destroyed, etc. you pick a man such as Gregor Clegane to do the job because he is clearly a sadistic pyschopath with a combination of size, strength and brutality that is unmatched by anyone we have seen in Westeros.

Sandor is more co0mplicated than his brother. When we first meet him, he's not as "bad" as Gregor, but you know that they come from the same stock.I challenge anyone to tell me that they found Sandor to be anything but cruel and sadistic when they first met him in aGoT. I'm not sure he was follwoing orders when he cut Mycah to pieces and brought him back for all to see. I don't think he was following orders when he terrorized Sansa on numerous occasions. The important thing though is, even if he WAS following orders, he was OK with doing what he did. Not all Germans became torturers and mass murderers, and those that did ultimately used the "I was just follwoing orders" when brought to trial for crimes against humanity at Nuremberg.

Sandor was the personal enforcer for one of the cruelest and most sadistic characters in this series. He does manage to partially redeem himself as the series progresses, but that only makes him a more interesting charcter, not an inherently better person. He's not as horrible as his brother, but I wouldn't want him anywhere near anyone I loved, especially a woman.

 

[Tywin]

Sandor could be depended on to carry out your will and intent. I'd love to have the guy work for me.

Gregor I would have put down.

 

[TK-421]

You all have it right I think. Sandor does the only thing he knows: protect and kill. He does not care for anything else in this world. At least, he did not care for anything else...until he met Sansa.

 

[The Imp]

You all have it right I think. Sandor does the only thing he knows: protect and kill. He does not care for anything else in this world. At least, he did not care for anything else...until he met Sansa.

Protect because it's his job, kills because he enjoys it. Hell of a guy

 

[Tywin]

I don't remember him showing much enjoyment in anything.

He's the only one of the Lannister clique that ever stood up for Sansa other than Tyrion.

 

[Boaz]

I know we are off the original topic. My apologies to the OP.

I contend that, whether you are an order giver or an order taker, morality remains the same. I'm glad Imp mentioned the Germans of the Second World War. Were there German patriots caught up in German nationalism after the Treaty of Versailles and yet wanted nothing to do with Nazi methods? Absolutely. Many, if not all of these, when confronted with the reality of Hitler's murders of political opponents, Jews, Slavs, Roma, the old, the handicapped, and mentally handicapped were forced to ask themselves, "Is this moral?" Then they had to either join Hitler, turn a blind eye, or begin to work against him. The list of German opponents to Hitler includes order givers and order takers. We know of many order givers who were executed by the SS, SD, Abwehr, or various other Nazi groups in order to keep Hitler in power... von Stauffenberg, Bonhoeffer, Oster, Canaris... but most of the names of the order takers who were murdered by the Nazis will never be know to general history... I only know of a few; the students of the White Rose.

And there were many who turned a blind eye Nazi sins... and worse, there were some who joined in whole-heartedly.

I'm also reminded of the position that Col. Shaw was put in during Glory. His superior ordered him to burn a town and Shaw replied that he would not since it was immoral. But when threatened with the loss of his command and his troops, Shaw acquiecsed and had his men set their torches. Shaw could have refused the order, his Major could have refused the order, his seargeants could have refused the order, and his privates could have refused the order. Just because Shaw's superior gave the order, does it absolve the enlisted men from the crime? Mayhaps in a court of law, but not before God and their consciences.

Who is the ultimate authority? Is it the government? In a 1778 address to the Virginia Assembly, American patriot and future U.S. President James Madison said, "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." If we cannot individually control ourselves not to lie, steal, cheat, and murder, then it does not matter what the government legislates.

I'm not saying Eddard was perfect. I've been an Eddard detractor because of his political naivite. But when it came down to condoning murder, he had none of it. Eddard strove to be in the right when it came to life and death. Yes, he executed Gared, but Gared had broken his sworn oath... and to be sure Gared deserved death, Eddard swung the sword himself. It is was a lot easier for Robert, Cersei, Tywin, Tyrion, Joffrey, little Robert, Dany, and Stannis to order political assassinations when they do not have to actually commit the the murders themselves.

Back to Sandor... Was he a victim of child abuse? Yes.

Did he live in mortal fear as a youngster? Yes.

Did his parents protect him? No.

Is he deserving of pity? Yes.

Is he an intriguing character. Yes, definitely. The fact that he's a villain does not make him less interesting.

Was he in an unenviable position serving the Crown? Yes.

Was he forced to be a hit man and executioner? Yes.

Would he have been killed if he'd balked at killing for the Crown? Yes.



Does all this absolve him of blame in Mycah's death?



Is Sandor beyond redemption? No. Will he grasp it? I'm not sure. I'd love to see Sandor and Sansa together. (Years ago during the BenJen, Bennifer, TomKat names for relationships, I proposed SanSan... and I'd like to see it come true.) Sansa is waking up. Sandor is trying to regain his humanity. Beauty and the Beast. Love is Sandor's redemption if he'll take it...

Back to Glory... Shaw tells Private Trip that the situation has become a moral quagmire... "It stinks, I suppose." To which Trip replies, "Yeah, It stinks bad. And we all covered up in it too. Ain't nobody clean. Be nice to get clean, though." The answer to getting clean, to finding honor, comes when Trip echoes the Seargent Major's words, "We ante up and kick in, sir." And this is summed up in Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings, "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." That is what Boromir did in his final minutes. And in any fantasy world without spiritual redemption, that's all anyone can do.

 

[Tywin]

The very center of your theory relies on the idea that there is a standard human morality that matches yours. Sandor is not an American fighting in the Civil War, nor is he a German living in 20th Century Europe.

You use the example of the Germans who were tried by military tribunal after WWII for following orders. Well, how about the Japanese who were tried? Have you ever studied them, those old knights of the Bushido? Long and short of it was that they were not tried and convicted because their culture had a different moral code.

The idea that the life of an individual person matters more than the good of the collective populace (rule of law and authority of a king in a medieval monarchy) is a western, and especially American idea.

 

[The Imp]

The very center of your theory relies on the idea that there is a standard human morality that matches yours. Sandor is not an American fighting in the Civil War, nor is he a German living in 20th Century Europe.

You use the example of the Germans who were tried by military tribunal after WWII for following orders. Well, how about the Japanese who were tried? Have you ever studied them, those old knights of the Bushido? Long and short of it was that they were not tried and convicted because their culture had a different moral code.

The idea that the life of an individual person matters more than the good of the collective populace (rule of law and authority of a king in a medieval monarchy) is a western, and especially American idea.

I assume you're respondiong to Boaz, who IMO made a very eloquent case for Sandor as both villain and victim.

Have you ever thought about why Sandor was always so angry and comtemptuous when someone would call him Ser? How many times did he say something to the effect of "I am no knight"? the Knights of Westeros are supposed to PROTECT the weak, the sick, the infirm, the young, the women, etc, not brutalize them. Sandor's first major acts in aGoT were to kill and dismember a defenseless boy, and later to terrorize Sansa when he "escorted' her back to her room. It's still painful to remember . Threatening to kill her if she ever told anyone about how his face was burned. Sandor was one of the charcters that I most disliked when i first read the series, and my opinion of him remained pretty much the same as the series progressed. Has he made some progress toward becoming a human being? I suppose. Is he redeemable? Yes. Is he a vicious sociopath? Almost certainly/

You pointed out to Boaz that there have been instances of people committing war crimes and not being prosecuted afterwards. I'll point out to you that Ned Stark sent Berric Dondarrion and a small army to hunt down Gregor after learning of the atrocities that he committed. If Tywin had sent Sandor instead of Gregor, wouldn't he have done the same things? He would have followed orders, but MAYBE enjoyed what he was told to do slightly less than his brother did.

 

[Tywin]

Someone refresh my memory please. We keep mentioning how Sansa was 'terrorized' by Sandor, but I don't remember reading it that way. Are we just talking about him making comments mocking her for her fairy-tale outlook on life?

 

[Ursa major]

I think Sandor liked disabusing Sansa of her fairy-tale views on life.

 

[The Imp]

Someone refresh my memory please. We keep mentioning how Sansa was 'terrorized' by Sandor, but I don't remember reading it that way. Are we just talking about him making comments mocking her for her fairy-tale outlook on life?

Forcing her to sing for him, threatening to kill her while he was stinking drunk and already proven capable of killing a child, constant verbal abuse and intimidation/humiliation. Would YOU have wanted to be a 12 year old Sansa having to put up with Sandor's crap knowing that your only "protectors" were Joffrey and the man you needed protection from?

 

[Tywin]

Forcing her to sing for him, threatening to kill her while he was stinking drunk and already proven capable of killing a child, constant verbal abuse and intimidation/humiliation. Would YOU have wanted to be a 12 year old Sansa having to put up with Sandor's crap knowing that your only "protectors" were Joffrey and the man you needed protection from?

Meh.

She needed it. Still does.

 

[The Imp]

Meh.

She needed it. Still does.

I'm guessing you accidentally left some sort of emoticon out,m maybe a smiley?

 

[TK-421]

I'm of the view that Sandor does not enjoy much (if anything) in life and the thing he hates maybe a little bit less than his brother is what he is and has become: feared, ugly, full of rage and hatred, alone. He hates himself.

Sandor found Sansa and loved her for who she was. Apart from her family, he was the only person in the world who did.

Would she love him back? Not then. The reborn Sansa just may.

 

[Tywin]

I'm guessing you accidentally left some sort of emoticon out,m maybe a smiley?

A smiley would be out of character.

TK-421, I think you just described Sandor perfectly.

I'm not sure Sansa's been reborn yet though. If she sticks a sword in Littlefinger I'll believe it.

 

[The Imp]

I'm of the view that Sandor does not enjoy much (if anything) in life and the thing he hates maybe a little bit less than his brother is what he is and has become: feared, ugly, full of rage and hatred, alone. He hates himself.

Sandor found Sansa and loved her for who she was. Apart from her family, he was the only person in the world who did.

Would she love him back? Not then. The reborn Sansa just may.

I think you described him really well.

Maybe he and Sansa will wed one day and produce lots of children, most of whom will be narcissistic sociopaths