A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[mtzGr]

Im confused as to why everones so sure ser Davos is going to get rickon. Im thinking i missed something in one of the davos chapters or something earlier. I had assumed he was going to try and smuggle manderlys kid in kings landing. Please help I finished adwd and am feigning for the next book already, cant imagine how long its felt for those who have completed the book years ago when it was released

I haven't read any of the posts on the subject, but I imagine the potential reasoning is that they are relatively in the same area of the world (at least one thinks), and both estranged (Rickon more so than Davos). Rickon has been removed from the story for some time, so it's a rather clean (convenient) way to bring him back into the thick of things.

 

[Eversummer]

Many readers believe that Osha led Rickon to Skagos. But I don't think so. They could be anywhere else but the North.

 

[Needle]

Im confused as to why everones so sure ser Davos is going to get rickon. Im thinking i missed something in one of the davos chapters or something earlier. I had assumed he was going to try and smuggle manderlys kid in kings landing. Please help I finished adwd and am feigning for the next book already, cant imagine how long its felt for those who have completed the book years ago when it was released

First, Welcome Bran!

You def missed it! In I believe the last Davos chapter in ADWD. It is pretty much laid out. Wex was Theon's squire. He saw Bran and Rickon and crew after Winterfell fell. He heard the entire conversation of the group. He knows Bran and Rickon are alive. He actually followed Rickon and Osha. It doesn't say he is going to Skago, but it the only place we are aware of where cannibals abound. Ramsey Bolton claims to be married to Arya, which is his claim to the North, a false one, but who can disprove it? Lord Manderly wants Rickon and his wolf, a male heir to Winterfell and the North.

 

[Reivax26]

The only thing I am certain of is that when Aegon meets Arianne Martell he will not be able to resist her charms. I started a thread for the television show in which I stated that I did not know of any woman alive who could actually do Arianne justice beauty wise.

Jon will live and he is AA. I agree with the idea that Lightbringer is the Nights Watch and/or the Wall itself.

Stannis isn't dead and neither is Mance Rayder.

Something will happen with Arya that doesn't make me loathe her character anymore.

Sansa will finally do something.

Victarion and the Iron Fleet are going to kick some serious booty when they arrive for the battle.

Daenerys and her black dragon will kill an entire Dothraki army

These are my predictions for the 6th book

 

[Bran_the_Broken]

First, Welcome Bran!

You def missed it! In I believe the last Davos chapter in ADWD. It is pretty much laid out. Wex was Theon's squire. He saw Bran and Rickon and crew after Winterfell fell. He heard the entire conversation of the group. He knows Bran and Rickon are alive. He actually followed Rickon and Osha. It doesn't say he is going to Skago, but it the only place we are aware of where cannibals abound. Ramsey Bolton claims to be married to Arya, which is his claim to the North, a false one, but who can disprove it? Lord Manderly wants Rickon and his wolf, a male heir to Winterfell and the North.

Needle,

thank you, now that you mention the part of the squire wex i remember the chapter now. Read alot over the last few days trying to finish so alot has slipped my mind

 

[endless]

- I don't think Jon is dead either.. so far GRRMs main character death scenes have been more to the point. But Jon's attack scene was very vague.

- Rickon has to be on Skagos, I can't think of any other place. But I do remember that Asha and Rickon went south after they split with Bran and the Reeds. The journey to Skagos in Bolton territory had to be one helluva trek. But it's the only place I can think of. And the Skags are still sworn to Winterfell, regardless of what or who they eat.

- Aegon and Connington ally with Dorne and with Kevan dead, who runs the throne? I don't imagine Cersei returning as regent. This will be great to read about in future books.

- Jaime.. if he was going to die at the hands of Cat and her followers.. it would have happened in ADWD, instead it was just some talk about "Jaime missing". I don't imagine Winds starts off with a chapter in which they hang Jaime.. very unclimatic.

- There is also that story with Sam and the Maester in Oldtown. I am still very confused as to what the heck happened in the beginning (and end) of Feast for Crows in regards to the Maester students, the alchemist, the murder, etc. I'm excited to see that story expand.

- Stannis is not dead as Ramsay wrote in his letter as apparent in the preview "Theon Chapter" from Winds of Winter on GRRMs site. And Mance Rayder still has a part to play as well.

I totally agree with you. Except of Cersei not returning to the throne... she seems pretty harsh about letting her son alone in Kings Landing, so probably she will want by every way to be the regent again. I can't figure out any other to take control, they don't seem important enough.

Yeah, i didn't get the maester story very well, can't connect it with the other stories. Hope in the next book it gets more clear.

 

[Rolynd]

It seems that here along with most of the online community agree that Jon can't be dead. There are a variety of ways that would work in the story for him still be alilve and masses of clues and portents that suggest he has a big role still to play.

That said, I think it's certainly possible for GRRM to pull a fast one here. Everybody is sure Jon is not dead and Aegon is a red herring in the game of thrones with Corrington set up in some way probably by Varys. What could be more surprising than Jon just actually being full on dead and Aegon really is the true Targaryen heir? I wouldn't put it past old George...

I wouldn't like that, someone summed it up perfectly on here when they said "You can't have it both ways - if you have lots of signs and prophecies you run the risk of people figuring stuff out before the big reveal, but if you have them and then completely go against all the signs and portents you have effectively just pulled it out of your arse..."

I don't think he would do that, he's put too much effort in to adding these clues to abandon it. Jon will be back, but he's sworn an oath and I don't think he'll ever leave the wall. Aegon is too convenient to suddenly spring onto the story, but it could well be true. Thing is who could stand against all of Dorne and the Golden company at the moment? Probably only someone that had some big weapon...like a dragon maybe...I fully expect Dany to remember she's a Targaryen queen not a hormonal teenager from a twilight novel soon enough and start kicking some butt.

Stannis I'm not sure about. What does Ramsay have to gain by pretending to Jon that he has killed him? Is he just trying to draw him out?

 

[juleska]

I'm 90% convinced that Jon is not dead, but I'm 50/50 on Aegon being the real baby Aegon. In the Aegon's True Parentage thread, Eversummer put forth the theory that Aegon as we know him is not the son of Rhaegar but the son of Mad King Aerys and his daughter-in-law, Elia Martell. ADWD also gave us some reason to speculate that Lyanna was raped by Aerys and not by Rhaegar (as Robert suggested). If that is the case, then it could mean the three heads of the dragon (Dany, Jon and Aegon) are all children of Aerys, the Mad King.

Now IF this theory proves true, then Aegon is who he says he is (and whom Varys claims he is), i.e. The Real Aegon™....yet at the same time, not who he thinks he is, i.e. the son of Rhaegar.

The reason I'm 50/50 on Aegon being TRA™ is because my first inclination after finishing ADWD the first time is that he seemed to be such a late-comer, too conveniently scripted to be the real deal. Then again, GRRM has established a great precedence for prominent figures being shuffled under a pseudonym, for either their own protection or for some one's personal gain.

Ramsay - Posing as Reek so that the real (original Reek) would be killed in his place
Jeyne Poole - Fake Arya
Sansa - Alayne
Tyrion - Hugor Hill / Yollo
BFS - Arsten Whitebeard
Arya - Her many aliases
Mance - Abel (not counting his time as Rattleshirt)
Elenya Westerling - Potentially posing as her older sister Jeyne

And more....

Some of these characters may live out the rest of their days (or at least decades) under their new identity. It is therefore not much of a stretch to think that Aegon could have been switched with any other baby at the last minute by Varys, then secreted away to live under the alias of Young Griff to protect his life, while waiting for the right time for his true identity to emerge (just as Littlefinger is doing with Sansa).

So all of that lends credence to the idea that Aegon is TRA™.

My 50% doubt comes from the fact that the one thing GRRM has taught me as a reader is that you should never take anything at face value. So ADWD presents us, at face value, the idea that Aegon is TRA™ and not an imposter. Therefore we may have to assume that he is not.

 

[Renly Baratheon]

Here's a thought:

It seems that each character who wants the power of the dragons is tested by fire. Viserys is killed by the molten gold. Quentyn is burned by the dragon's flames. Neither of them have the blood of the dragon which would allow them to survive

Dany obviously has the blood of the dragon, which keeps her from being burned in Drogos funeral pyre and again by Drogon.

Now, on the other hand, Jon must not have the blood of the dragon because his hand is burned when saving Mormont from the wight. I do not think he is Targaryen nor is he going to be one of the three heads. The three must be able to withstand fire.

 

[Tywin]

Here's a thought:

It seems that each character who wants the power of the dragons is tested by fire. Viserys is killed by the molten gold. Quentyn is burned by the dragon's flames. Neither of them have the blood of the dragon which would allow them to survive

Dany obviously has the blood of the dragon, which keeps her from being burned in Drogos funeral pyre and again by Drogon.

Now, on the other hand, Jon must not have the blood of the dragon because his hand is burned when saving Mormont from the wight. I do not think he is Targaryen nor is he going to be one of the three heads. The three must be able to withstand fire.

I think we've been over this a few times in the Jon Snow thread.

I agree that so far in the series Targaryens are being 'tested' by fire, but that does not mean that they are not Targaryen.

There is no doubt that Viserys was Targaryen, yet he burned up. Also no doubt that Quentyn had Targaryen blood, and there he is dead. Which one of the Targaryen kings drank that wildfire? Well, he was also a Targaryen.

I think maybe the question that we should be asking is "Why is Dany fireproof?" And I think her Targaryen blood is not the answer (or not the complete answer at least).

Here's a thought: what if it's her connection to the dragons that keeps her from getting burned? Maybe if she's connected (like warging) she takes on the heat resistant properties of those dragons. If that is the case, then anyone who can forge that connection with a dragon would become fireproof.

Ooh, I think this may qualify for crackpot theory status.

 

[Ursa major]

I like it!


So does this suggest that when others (no, not Others) warg, they take on (some of) the characteristcs of those with whom they warg?

Does anyone fancy reading through the five books with a fine-tooth comb looking for any evidence of this.

(And if GRRM is reading this, it would help if a new chapter were to be released in which Bran said, "Hodor!" for no apparent reason. )

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Well it is established in the Varamyr Prologue that when you warg into an animal, a little bit of you goes into the animal, and a little bit of the animal goes into you.

But Dany has never warger her dragons, so that might be a different kind of connection.

Here's a thought:

It seems that each character who wants the power of the dragons is tested by fire. Viserys is killed by the molten gold. Quentyn is burned by the dragon's flames. Neither of them have the blood of the dragon which would allow them to survive

Dany obviously has the blood of the dragon, which keeps her from being burned in Drogos funeral pyre and again by Drogon.

Now, on the other hand, Jon must not have the blood of the dragon because his hand is burned when saving Mormont from the wight. I do not think he is Targaryen nor is he going to be one of the three heads. The three must be able to withstand fire.

I think there is an important distiction to be made about Blood of Targaryans and blood of the Dragon. Not all targs wre "Dragons" (note the capitol) I think it was Jorah who told Dany that Rheagar was the last dragon, and not Viserys. i think there only certain Targs who are born with the "blood of the Dragon". As tywin pointed out, not all targs are fireproof.

However, I am starting to believe that the dragon riders DO need to be fireproof. When Dany rides drogon she can feel the heat of him under her. His blood literally melted a steel spear-head, which means that a dragons skin must be incredibly hot to the touch, and I don't just say that based on Logic, Dany confirms it in her chapter when she rides Drogon. That seems like bad news for Jon of the burned hand.

Tyrion on the other-hand might fare better. He hasn't been tested by fire as of yet, but he does seem to be resiliant to sickness (greyscale and the pale mare both leave him untouched) which is a trait he and Dany share. can anyone confirm if Tyrion has ever professed to enjoying really really hot bathes? or if he ever complains of things being too hot? or remeniscing about being sick when he was young? (his delerium following the blackwater doesn't count)

 

[Tywin]

Well it is established in the Varamyr Prologue that when you warg into an animal, a little bit of you goes into the animal, and a little bit of the animal goes into you.

But Dany has never warged her dragons, so that might be a different kind of connection.

I think there is an important distiction to be made about Blood of Targaryans and blood of the Dragon. Not all targs wre "Dragons" (note the capitol) I think it was Jorah who told Dany that Rheagar was the last dragon, and not Viserys. i think there only certain Targs who are born with the "blood of the Dragon". As tywin pointed out, not all targs are fireproof.

However, I am starting to believe that the dragon riders DO need to be fireproof. When Dany rides drogon she can feel the heat of him under her. His blood literally melted a steel spear-head, which means that a dragons skin must be incredibly hot to the touch, and I don't just say that based on Logic, Dany confirms it in her chapter when she rides Drogon. That seems like bad news for Jon of the burned hand.

Tyrion on the other-hand might fare better. He hasn't been tested by fire as of yet, but he does seem to be resiliant to sickness (greyscale and the pale mare both leave him untouched) which is a trait he and Dany share. can anyone confirm if Tyrion has ever professed to enjoying really really hot bathes? or if he ever complains of things being too hot? or remeniscing about being sick when he was young? (his delerium following the blackwater doesn't count)

As with most of the 'mild-warging' done by the starks (all the Starks connections with wolves and dogs and cats other than the full-on warging of Bran), Dany could very well be warging her dragons and just not realize it.

As for the "Blood of the Dragon"... if Jorah Mormont is the source of that biological data, then I think we might be able to dismiss it.

Also, Dany was the first Targaryen we see to have frequent contact with dragons (both in the egg and out), and she has all of that connection before walking through a funeral pyre.

Maybe we should be looking at this from the other way around, not necessarily trying to prove that what Dany does is the same as what Starks do, but looking to see if any Starks or other confirmed Wargs take on traits from their subjects.

So, we have the Varamyr chapter saying that a little of the animal goes in you. Do we have the exact quote handy (my copy of ADWD is about 6k miles away) to get the precise quote? Like if it's a furry animal do you get warmer, or if an eagle can you see a bit further with your own eyes?

How about examples from the Starks? Do we get anything from Bran or Jon? Is there anything said about heightened senses or other abilities after warging?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

As with most of the 'mild-warging' done by the starks (all the Starks connections with wolves and dogs and cats other than the full-on warging of Bran), Dany could very well be warging her dragons and just not realize it.

but of the starks we see who have only "mildly warged" they still have wolf dreams. we don't know if Rickon has wolf dreams and Sansa's wolf died pretty early on. I think if Dany could warg, she should be having Dragon Dreams by now (and I don't mean dreams about dragons)

As for the "Blood of the Dragon"... if Jorah Mormont is the source of that biological data, then I think we might be able to dismiss it.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. there is obviously something about Dany that is resistant to flame or heat even before she gets the dragon eggs. she was fond of taking skin-scaldingly hot baths. so obviously there was something that seperated her from Viserys. and it isn't just Jorah who thinks Viserys doesn't have the blood of the dragon, BFS thinks so as well.

Also, Dany was the first Targaryen we see to have frequent contact with dragons (both in the egg and out), and she has all of that connection before walking through a funeral pyre.

Maybe we should be looking at this from the other way around, not necessarily trying to prove that what Dany does is the same as what Starks do, but looking to see if any Starks or other confirmed Wargs take on traits from their subjects.

So, we have the Varamyr chapter saying that a little of the animal goes in you. Do we have the exact quote handy (my copy of ADWD is about 6k miles away) to get the precise quote? Like if it's a furry animal do you get warmer, or if an eagle can you see a bit further with your own eyes?

this is from Haggon in the Varamyr chapter. It's none too specific though.

"Wolves and women wed for life. You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on and you're a part of him. Both of you will change.
Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long and even the bravest man would become a coward... Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clounds and you never want to come back down again."

The only real bit of evidence is that if you spend =time as an animal that is prey, you become a coward... again, this seems to be more a matter of opinion.

How about examples from the Starks? Do we get anything from Bran or Jon? Is there anything said about heightened senses or other abilities after warging?

not that I can say, though Jon experiences hightened senses just by touching Ghost without actually wearing his skin.

 

[Tywin]

but of the starks we see who have only "mildly warged" they still have wolf dreams. we don't know if Rickon has wolf dreams and Sansa's wolf died pretty early on. I think if Dany could warg, she should be having Dragon Dreams by now (and I don't mean dreams about dragons)



I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. there is obviously something about Dany that is resistant to flame or heat even before she gets the dragon eggs. she was fond of taking skin-scaldingly hot baths. so obviously there was something that seperated her from Viserys. and it isn't just Jorah who thinks Viserys doesn't have the blood of the dragon, BFS thinks so as well.

Dany has several prophetic dreams, much like Bran or Jon.

As for the scalding baths, I'm pretty sure that came after she was given the dragon eggs, didn't it?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

no, she has a scalding bath in preparation of getting married, before she gets the eggs. I also got the impression that she has always enjoyed really hot bath water. I think she says something along the lines that it always makes her feel clean, with the implication that being around her Brother makes her feel dirty.

 

[Tywin]

no, she has a scalding bath in preparation of getting married, before she gets the eggs. I also got the impression that she has always enjoyed really hot bath water. I think she says something along the lines that it always makes her feel clean, with the implication that being around her Brother makes her feel dirty.

Hmm, definitely something to consider, although taking hot baths and being fireproof are not necessarily the same thing. You'd think that at some point in her life prior to that funeral pyre she might have noticed that she was impervious to fire?

 

[Renly Baratheon]

Hmm, definitely something to consider, although taking hot baths and being fireproof are not necessarily the same thing. You'd think that at some point in her life prior to that funeral pyre she might have noticed that she was impervious to fire?

I don't think she would have necessarily noticed. She can definitely feel the heat from the baths and fire, which would have made her stay away. Only at Drogo's funeral pyre does she really understand she can survive the flames.

There is definitely a difference here between Targaryen blood and the blood of dragons, as someone already said. I think in the Targaryen family, not every child inherits the dragon blood. I don't think Dany wargs with Drogon or she would have felt a deeper connection with him, especially when he is attacked in the pit

 

[Tywin]

I don't think she would have necessarily noticed. She can definitely feel the heat from the baths and fire, which would have made her stay away. Only at Drogo's funeral pyre does she really understand she can survive the flames.

There is definitely a difference here between Targaryen blood and the blood of dragons, as someone already said. I think in the Targaryen family, not every child inherits the dragon blood. I don't think Dany wargs with Drogon or she would have felt a deeper connection with him, especially when he is attacked in the pit

Again, we all have this presupposition that Dany was fireproof to begin with. Why is that?

Generations of Targaryens, and none were fireproof (often tested). Then one lives side by side with dragons and is shown to be fireproof?

Although this debate has gone back and forth, I really think that there is something that makes her fireproof NOW. As in something in her environment has changed. Either that she is exposed to dragons (in the egg first), or maybe that whole red comet in the sky. All the other magic in their world started working when that thing showed up, so maybe this is one of the effects.

Watch this:

Events in Chronological Order:
1. Viserys is burned to death by molten gold.
2. Jon's hand is burned fighting the others.
3. The Red Star appears in the sky.
4. Dragons are born / Dany is fireproof (except for her hair...)

If she's fireproof now because of something (like the red star, or being around dragons), then it would stand to reason that other people might have the ability to become fireproof even if they have been burned in the past (ie Winterfell's *******)

 

[joshrackley]

Since dragons are inherently magical creatures, I don't know if we can definitively say that warging them would resemble warging a normal beast in any fashion. Warging a dragon might not produce the same types of dreams as we've seen in Jon, Bran, Arya, etc. Also, the properties of the creature that are imparted to the warger could be markedly different than just gaining some of the "feelings" of that creature (warging deer makes you a coward, warging a bird makes you want to fly, etc).