# U.F.O. Sightings



## Starbeast

*U.F.O. SIGHTINGS*​ 

I made a rough recreation of the first U.F.O. that I've ever seen, it glided slowly above me at dusk in the early 1980's.
After that moment, I became interested in Ufology.​ 






 


*Anyone else want to mention any U.F.O. encounters?*​


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## Toke

If that really happened then far out 

I myself believe in extraterrestrial life 100% but count myself as a kind of agnostic. It's pretty hard to believe some stories.

They're out there but some people just haven't got the patience.


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## Starbeast

Toke: If that really happened then far out 
Starbeast: It really did, it changed my life.

Toke:I myself believe in extraterrestrial life 100% but count myself as a kind of agnostic.
Starbeast: I also believe that there are other intellegent beings (besides humans) in this universe and from other dimensions.

Toke: It's pretty hard to believe some stories.
Starbeast: True, through research and personal interviews, you can discover some good ones, but very few authentic cases.

Toke: They're out there but some people just haven't got the patience.
Starbeast: True, but if someone really wants to find the answers, they've got to work hard to find out what's really going on.


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## Parson

I've always hoped to see one, but I have not. And I am becoming less and less convinced that any race who could truly tread between the stars would not let themselves be seen by us. But when I understand alien psychology we'll all be eating rainbow stew and drinking free Bubble Up.

Starbeast: Did your UFO sighting actually contain what looks to be exhaust? I don't remember any other sighting with that detail.


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## J Riff

Mp. Well...didn't see anything clearly.. but in the 70s..I fell asleep driving on the hiway. Or did I ? Something happened, and I came to while driving, and something large was moving up and away to my left. That's it.
Also StarBeast, was your UFO actually under the phone wires, or is that an illusion?!


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## J-WO

I've seen one or two things in the sky I can't really explain.  That said, I'm no expert on weather, astronomy, satellites etc, so I'm not in a position to make any calls on the matter.

Interestingly, I was looking through an old book I've had since I was a kid about UFOs (and the mysterious generally) and one of the illustrations of a sighting is quite clearly a stealth fighter/ bomber! This was before they were made public, of course, but it must have been a terrifying experience for whoever saw it!


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## Peter Graham

J-Wo hits the nail on the head.

If we are talking about UFO's simply as unidentified flying objects, then of course they exist.  I saw an unidentified small mammal the other day.  It went past too quickly for me to say with any certainty whether it was a weasel or a stoat. 

But if we are linking UFO's to extra-terrestrial life (as very many do), then on present "evidence" the making of that link is a step too far.

Leaving aside hoaxers, genuine mistakes, optical illusions or whatever, a significant number of these objects seem to appear in remote places, often near air force bases or other military installations.   There is footage of flying saucer tests that were being carried out as long ago as the 1940s.  If I was in military top brass, I'd much rather people believed they'd seen little green men than top secret military hardware.

None of this is to say there _aren't_ little green men out there.  But like any other claim, it requires proof.  And like so much of this stuff - UFO's, Sasquatch, Nessie etc - the proof is always lacking, and what there is tends to rely heavily on hearsay, circumstantial evidence or self-serving evidence.  

Take the OP as an example.  I don't necessarily doubt what SB says s/he saw, but a clear inference is being drawn (especially from his/her second post) that what was seen was - or might well have been - extra terrestrial.  And there is no proof of that.  At best, all SB can say is that s/he saw something funny in the sky.  That's it.  It can be _theorised_ that it was not of this world, but in the absence of any firm evidence to back up that hypothesis, such a statement is no more valid than me saying I think that there might be a goblin behind the door.  It's never there when I open the door, but perhaps that's because it hears me coming and runs off.

Regards,

Peter


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## Ursa major

A few weeks back, I saw three points of light, in a lengthened isosceles triangle arrangment, moving slowly across the night sky.  It was (I assume; it was dark) overcast, with no stars visible. The lights weren't flashing, but I suspect they were on planes or helicopters. (I was in a car with the radio on, so didn't hear anything.)


I live a few miles away from a military facility** (the home of the Special Boat Service, as it happens), so wouldn't be surprised at seeing military craft.



** - When having a meal down by the shore, I occasionally see planes dropping parachutists - whether they're SBS or Marines, I don't know - over the sea in Poole Bay, with RIBs racing to collect them from the water.


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## Starbeast

*My first personal U.F.O. Sighting*



 






Parson said:


> Starbeast: Did your UFO sighting actually contain what looks to be exhaust? I don't remember any other sighting with that detail.


 
I don't believe it was exhaust, I believe it was gas used to push it gently forward. At first, I heard a hissing sound behind me, then above me, I looked up and SAW IT. That's when I noticed the gas emissions (going on and off), I could even hear it (phssst...phssst...phssst) as the unmarked black disk floated over me. Suddenly the gas stopped, it began to pick up speed and rose quickly in the sky as it headed south. It became orange and yellowish in color as it appeared to leave the atmosphere (arrow pointing at it).


I thought about it for days, I began to have an eerie feeling that it was purposely sneeking up behind me, but I can only guess at it's intentions. I didn't tell anyone about it for years, but I had begun my quest for answers.




J Riff said:


> StarBeast, was your UFO actually under the phone wires, or is that an illusion?!


 
It was really close, just below the tops of the telephone poles and a couple of feet above my garage, I could have hit it with a rock, that's how close it was. I made another rough recreation showing just how close the black disk was, plus I drew what it looked like as it flew off.


Still to this day, I can close my eyes and picture it happening like it was yesterday, that's how vivid it was for me. I was completely sober and wide-awake, even my dog that was with me looked up. I wasn't afraid, but I was in awe of it, at the time when it was happening I thought:

"Wow, a flying saucer.......is it from this planet or somewhere else?"


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## Pyan

Ursa major said:


> ** - When having a meal down by the shore, I occasionally see planes dropping parachutists - whether they're SBS or Marines, I don't know - over the sea in Poole Bay, with RIBs racing to collect them from the water.



Be careful, Ursa - my mate at work was sitting having lunch in his van at Hamble Point, when he was pounced on by armed MOD police, who suspected he was casing Fawley Refinery for avenues of attack...





Peter Graham said:


> It went past too quickly for me to say with any certainty whether it was a weasel or a stoat.



Peter, Peter...

 A weasel is weasily recognised, because a stoat is stoatally different...


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## Ursa major

pyan said:


> Be careful, Ursa - my mate at work was sitting having lunch in his van at Hamble Point, when he was pounced on by armed MOD police, who suspected he was casing Fawley Refinery for avenues of attack...


 
I suspect that the café-owner (well, lease-holder) would have something to say - many of the sightings were made from inside his premises - as would the local tourist authority (as the café is as close to Sandbanks as one can get on land without actually setting foot on the peninsula).



(And you're right about Peter's puzzle: the answer is easily ferreted out.)


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## J Riff

There's people who believe that the white...balls that are seen now and again, are the real UFO visitors to earth, and that they are simply watching. Previous to this, the story goes, other, nastier Aliens had Earth on their trade route and would stop here to pick up lifeforms every hundred years or so. But now we have these...white balls...that hover over places like Chicago. Thre's footage of one, and someone on the ground shoots something at it and it zips away with great speed.
 StarBeast...what you saw...could it have been earthly? Or did it do the thing where it moves too fast, at impossible angles etc?


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## Peter Graham

> A weasel is weasily recognised, because a stoat is stoatally different


 
You're right, of course.  But at the time, I was sat at my weasel stoatally absorbed in painting a nice picture of some cows.  I could weasily have identified the litle chap had it not been for a stoatal lack of concentration on my part.  I'd just dropped my brush and was ferreting about for another one.


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## J-WO

Wasn't this little ctitter was it, Peter?

Gef the Talking Mongoose: The Story of Gef


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## Starbeast

*U.F.O. Sightings: Spheres and Flying Craft*

*J Riff:* There's people who believe that the white...balls that are seen now and again, are the real UFO visitors to earth, and that they are simply watching. 
*Starbeast:* Through research I've uncovered, some people from ancient times made references to invisible telepathic beings who they call "the Watchers". There have even been in modern times, authors on the subject of aliens, who are convinced that there are invisble telepathic otherworldly beings who are watching us.

*J Riff:* Previous to this, the story goes, other, nastier Aliens had Earth on their trade route and would stop here to pick up lifeforms every hundred years or so.
*Starbeast:* That could be very possible, there are records in ancient text from India about wars fought in the sky for Earth that have been witnessed by thousands of people. Plus other ancient cultures (like in Peru) that mention beings from space came here to collect precious minerals like gold.

*J Riff:* But now we have these...white balls...that hover over places like Chicago. Thre's footage of one, and someone on the ground shoots something at it and it zips away with great speed.
*Starbeast:* These sphere-like objects have been seen all over the world, and in different colors, we can only speculate what they are (probes, dimensional travelers, etc.). Alien physics and technology are beyond our understanding right now.





​ 
*Check out this Chicago item, this is when U.F.O.s were seen by many at O'hare airport, but the incident was hushed up quickly. Employees were ordered not to talk about it.*​ 



*J Riff:* StarBeast...what you saw...could it have been earthly? Or did it do the thing where it moves too fast, at impossible angles etc?
*Starbeast:* After many years of thinking about it, I believe it was not from this world, it was silent (except for the hissing gas-jets), it moved away fast toward the south, became orange and yellowish in color (ionization?), it was smooth, black and without any features on it, and appeared to ascend into space gracefully.


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## AE35Unit

In the words of Arthur C. Clarke, anyone who hasn't seen a UFO must be blind! Flying saucers on the other hand...


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## J Riff

Well it's still interesting, somehow. Not to be taken seriously, until the day finally arrives when... * " BEEEEeeP!! Attention, people of Earth..."


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## Peter Graham

> Through research I've uncovered, some people from ancient times made references to invisible telepathic beings who they call "the Watchers". There have even been in modern times, authors on the subject of aliens, who are convinced that there are invisble telepathic otherworldly beings who are watching us.


 
What is the actual* evidence* for these beliefs?




> That could be very possible, there are records in ancient text from India about wars fought in the sky for Earth that have been witnessed by thousands of people.


 
One has to be careful not to conflate myth with historical fact. Sky battles are a popular feature of many cultures - my bet is that they are an early way of explaining thunderstorms. But a creation myth is nothing like the same thing as a historical fact. 

In addition, such myths persist in to relatively modern times - in the mid seventeenth century, it was alleged that a spectral Battle of Edgehill was recreated in the sky above the original battlefield on a number of occasions.




> Plus other ancient cultures (like in Peru) that mention beings from space came here to collect precious minerals like gold.


 
See above. Von Danniken got excited about this stuff, but most of his arguments are palpable cobblers and rarely get beyond wild hypothesis. What do the texts actually say - word for word? This is possibly like the the Nostradamus thing - we are confidently told that he predicted the rise of Hitler (for example), but when one reads the actual text it is clear he did no such thing. What he actually said was a load of vague, portentous drivel which other people twisted to fit what they wanted it to be about. Had he said "_I predict that in the 1930's a chap called Adolf Hitler will come to power in a country which does not yet exist as a defined political unit but which will be called Germany_", it might have been rather different.




> After many years of thinking about it, I believe it was not from this world, it was silent (except for the hissing gas-jets), it moved away fast toward the south, became orange and yellowish in color (ionization?), it was smooth, black and without any features on it, and appeared to ascend into space gracefully.


 
But with the best will in the world, what you believe is not necessarily the same as what you can prove. I don't know you, but I'll wager you don't work in top secret military research labs. In imputing otherwordly qualities to something you don't personally understand, you are doing precisely the same thing as the Vikings, who imputed divine qualities to things _they_ didn't understand - rainbows, lightning and so on. 

Regards,

Peter


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## J Riff

The flipside o' that is - if we could prove it, it would be suspicious. Any race advanced enough to even be here at all - would be able to ghost around and ignore us by definition. Proves nothing of course. Sigh*
Hey ALIENS! Enough already. Show yourselves!


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## Peter Graham

Hi J Riff



> The flipside o' that is - if we could prove it, it would be suspicious. Any race advanced enough to even be here at all - would be able to ghost around and ignore us by definition.


 
I'm not sure that hangs together. If they are able to ghost around and ignore us, how come people claim to see them?

Proving the existence of something we don't understand shouldn't be that difficult. All we have to do is rule out everything we *do* understand. For UFO's, that would include taking a sighting and conclusively being able to rule out things like:-

1. Man made hardware
2. Weather and atmospheric conditions
3. Hoaxers
4. Tricks of the light or other optical illusions
5. Genuine mistakes
6. Dreams

If we can do that, then I would have to accept that the most likely remaining explanation *is* extraterrestrial activity. But unless we can rule out all of the above - and in particular 1 and 3* - the smart money has to be on entirely terrestrial explanations.

Regards,

Peter

* Never understimate this. Fans of the Loch Ness Monster will remember with some embarassment the famous "Surgeon's Photograph", which purported to show a head and neck sticking out of the water. It was stated that the photo had been analysed and was genuine. The photo graced the cover of any number of books and believers hurriedly discounted the possibility of hoax by pointing to the fact that the taker of the photo was an eminent and sober surgeon who swore that his picture was genuine and who had no reason to lie. Except that he *was* lying, as was revealed after he died. He'd mocked the whole thing up for a laugh.


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## Starbeast

*Alien Proof?*



Peter Graham said:


> *What is the actual evidence for these beliefs?*
> 
> One has to be careful not to conflate myth with historical fact. Sky battles are a popular feature of many cultures - my bet is that they are an early way of explaining thunderstorms. But a creation myth is nothing like the same thing as a historical fact.
> 
> Von Danniken got excited about this stuff, but most of his arguments are palpable cobblers and rarely get beyond wild hypothesis. What do the texts actually say - word for word? This is possibly like Nostradamus - what he actually said was a load of vague, portentous drivel which other people twisted to fit what they wanted it to be about.
> 
> But with the best will in the world, what you believe is not necessarily the same as what you can prove. I don't know you, but I'll wager you don't work in top secret military research labs. In imputing otherwordly qualities to something you don't personally understand, you are doing precisely the same thing as the Vikings, who imputed divine qualities to things _they_ didn't understand - rainbows, lightning and so on. Regards, Peter


 
I admire your skepticism Mr Graham (I'm skeptical of everything), I'm not doing this thread to convince people of the existence of other worldly beings. I could text a few hundred pages of postings explaining everything I've discovered, uncovered, witnessed and relay secretive information, but as I've learned from doing that in the past.........it doesn't do any good if someone refuses to believe. Talking about the existence other worldly beings is as difficult as talking about GOD. How can a person convince another individual that GOD exists without any physical evidence, it's near impossible. If I took the three holy books, the Torah, the Bible and the Quran and tried to convince my Native American Indian ancestors that all of these books are 100% true, they would probably stand there and blink at me, then politely say: _"Well, that's nice you believe in that."_ I know a few atheists who would say the same thing, and a couple of them would tell me that humans evolved from primitive mammals, while the rest would say: _"I don't know how humans came to be, an accident I guess"_.


*Anyone else want to mention any U.F.O. encounters?*


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## AE35Unit

I saw a green flash once years ago. Came vertically down and exploded on the wet road. It had been raining, the road was shiny, creating the illusion of something other, but it was a meteor. 
When talking about  aliens visiting us most people, myself included, use the argument of vast distances as the barrier. Good enough but I don't believe we're done with our solar system yet. Sure there's nowt on mars-War Of The Worlds is a great story but is only that. But what of the unexplored moons of jupiter, saturn,  neptune etc.


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## skeptical

It is kind of interesting to note what people in days gone by thought of UFO's.

Lights in the sky have always been seen.   However, it only since the invention of aircraft that they have been interpreted as space craft.   In previous times they have been identified as angels, devils, witches and other such entities.   Often the observers describe those entities in enormous detail, down to the glowing horns on their heads!   

The obvious conclusion is that human interpretation plays a very big role in what we see.  Our own expectations strongly drive our perceptions.  

I have personally seen three UFO incidents.  In all 3 cases, I have a simple and mundane explanation.   However, people are often less skeptical than me.   In fact, one of those cases involved the New Zealand navy in night time exercises, with search lights and helicopters etc.   The local newspaper wrote it up as a UFO sighting!


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## J Riff

I saw an absolutely spectacular meteor in the 70s, I was driving cab outside the city and a fireball crossed the entire sky in less than 5 seconds. Huge, chunks of fire falling off, it apparently crashed in S. America less than a minute later, and UFO stories circled around it, but it was just a huge burning rock.

Ghost around and maybe we see them now and again - why would they care?
I like the list, but I'd go with all of the above. 
The universe is insanely old. There are things out there that... I dunno...if I had to bet my life on it suddenly- are they here or not - ...I'd ....I'd plunk for ... uhmm... Yea. I just wish they would make an official appearance, tho it may put a few SciFi writers out of business.


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## Parson

Hmmm! Interesting thought. Does it seem likely that if there were intelligent species making "contact" with us; do you think that they would be more intelligible or much less intelligible than SF story aliens?


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## Starbeast

*Astronaut U.F.O. Sighting*





 

*Nasa astronaut takes pictures of a ship-shifting U.F.O.*
(all photos are of the same black craft)​


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## Williamlk

Last summer, my wife and I were standing on our back stoop a little after midnight. We saw what we first thought were three very bright stars. We noticed them because they were _extremely_ bright. 

The only way I can explain what happened next is like this; moments after we saw the three bright specks of light they began to dance about rapidly in circles for about 30 seconds, then they vanished. We just looked at each other in shock. We still talk about it.


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## Starbeast

*Incredible fast moving U.F.O.s in the sky.*



Williamlk said:


> Last summer, my wife and I were standing on our back stoop a little after midnight. We saw what we first thought were three very bright stars. We noticed them because they were _extremely_ bright.
> 
> The only way I can explain what happened next is like this; moments after we saw the three bright specks of light they began to dance about rapidly in circles for about 30 seconds, then they vanished. We just looked at each other in shock. We still talk about it.


 

I've gotton a lot of reports from people who see what look like bright stars zipping around in the starry night skys. A close cousin of mine told me this same story about twenty years ago, and a close friend who lived in Jordan told me he saw these fast moving lights on a starry night in the 1970's. I often wonder what these U.F.O.s are doing, sending signals to us or to other U.F.O.s, or are they just having fun flying around in the upper atmosphere.


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## skeptical

After the first full bottle of wine, I see stars dancing too.


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## Peter Graham

*Re: Alien Proof?*




> I could text a few hundred pages of postings explaining everything I've discovered, uncovered, witnessed and relay secretive information, but as I've learned from doing that in the past.........it doesn't do any good if someone refuses to believe



I think that perhaps you misunderstand me. I don't refuse to believe. That would be silly. But belief can arise on one of two ways - from faith or from evidence. 

Faith based belief is fine and most of us are obliged to rely on it every day. I'm not talking specifically about religious belief, by the way. A faith based belief is simply a belief which is not based on good evidence. By way of an example, I have no evidence that Mrs Graham isn't carrying on with the coal man, but I choose to believe that she isn't - that's a faith based belief. There is, of course, _some_ evidence to support my belief, but most of it is of the self-validating and self serving variety, because I trust her and would naturally be disinclined to believe that she is up to no good.

Evidence based belief is something quite different. One believes something because it can be proved to a satisfactory standard - not necessarily 100%, I grant you, but certainly to the point that objectively minded folk can be reasonably sure of the truth.

For me, once people start making extraordinary claims (such as the existence of guardian angels, alien flying saucers, ghosts, the efficacy of new age remedies and so on), then I am unlikely to believe without evidence. I too have looked into some of this stuff, but the quality of the evidence I have seen is unremittingly feeble and unconvincing.

But I'm an open minded chap. If you can prove alien flying saucers exist, I'll believe it.

Regards,

Peter


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## AE35Unit

*Re: Alien Proof?*



Peter Graham said:


> But I'm an open minded chap. If you can prove alien flying saucers exist, I'll believe it.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Peter


Flying saucers are like god, cant prove it, cant disprove it, even tho both are incredibly unlikely!


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## Peter Graham

*Re: Alien Proof?*



AE35Unit said:


> Flying saucers are like god, cant prove it, cant disprove it, even tho both are incredibly unlikely!


 
I agree it's almost impossible to prove a negative, but if we go into these things in an open minded way, we don't have to.  It falls to those who say alien flying saucers exist to positively prove what they believe to be a fact.  If they can't prove it, they can't expect others to believe it (which, in all fairness, I don't think Starbeast does), but equally if they wish to discuss their beliefs in an open forum, they have to expect others to challenge them - in a respectful way, of course.  

Being sceptical (or skeptical, depending where you live)is not the same thing as having a closed mind.

Regards,

Peter


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## Moonbat

I love the way that someone has created a Youtube video of some Nasa pictures and set it to Orchestral choir music in an attempt to invoke some sort of...? I don't know, some kind of divine notion of the unknown. I think it is rather pretentious, dressing up the facts in as much theatre as possible, but that's just me. I have seen similar videos on youtube that profess to have proof for the existence of God, but in reality use some bizarre twist of logic to infer that he must exist.
Those pictures are far from evidence of UFOs (in the extraterrestrial sense) I agree with someone earlier that if extraterrestrials did visit the planet they would almost certainly want to do more than just fly around and hint at their existence, I know we would do much more if we ever visited other planets, but as others have said we can't disprove it, for we don't know the mind of an alien.


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## Parson

The music was downright disconcerting, and pictures looked like a poor hoax with a clever explanation. A shape shifting "craft" indeed. I would very much like to believe that there is intelligent life out there somewhere. But if they do visit, I'm quite sure that we will not have much doubt about it. (I would say no doubt, but the whole "Moon landing was a hoax" crowd reminds me that there are both people who will believe anything, and those who refuse to accept anything out of their experience.)


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## Starbeast

*Alien Proof?*



Peter Graham said:


> I agree it's almost impossible to prove a negative, but if we go into these things in an open minded way, we don't have to. It falls to those who say alien flying saucers exist to positively prove what they believe to be a fact. *If they can't prove it, they can't expect others to believe it (which, in all fairness, I don't think Starbeast does)*, *but equally if they wish to discuss their beliefs in an open forum, they have to expect others to challenge them* - in a respectful way, of course.
> 
> Being sceptical (or skeptical, depending where you live)is not the same thing as having a closed mind.
> 
> Regards, Peter


 
Like I said, I could tell you amazing things, if I said I wiitnessed shape-shifting flying craft first-hand and met an outworld being (from space or dimension) face-to-face, how could I convince anyone (including closest family and friends).............no know would believe me. GOD would be my only witness and believer that I experianced fantastic beings from elsewhere.

In all respect Mr Parson and Mr Graham, you have to do your own personal quest to find out the answers, however I understand that people lead busy lives and no everyboby keeps an eye to the sky most of the time. Plus I completely understand skepticism is the key to finding out the real answers, and this world is filled with illusions (like the governments), for example I could make a large coin disappear in my hands (with my sleeves rolled up) while you're standing in front of me and it would seem like real magic.







​ 


*Here's something helpful, use infrared when filming UFOs day or night, you get better quailty footage*​


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## AE35Unit

Its quite simple really-aliens exist, flying saucers don't.  Religions exist, gods don't!


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## skeptical

Among my other science geekie things, I am a dabbler in amateur astronomy.   While I achieve very little in this (not serious enough) I do spend a lot of time outside at night.   I live in a location with excellent 'seeing' and no city lights to stuff it up.  I am on a hill overlooking the Pacific Ocean with a vast vista to view.

I have seen satellites, the ISS, meteors, Venus, all the visible planets, assorted aircraft with lights, ships and speeding boats with night lights, etc., etc.

I have *never *seen a UFO.  I say this in the literal meaning of the acronym.   That is :  I have seen lots of things others might call UFO's, but I am educated and smart enough to work out what each is, making them identified.

Nor do I believe that any other person on this planet has seen a UFO.   Meaning that if I had been with them and seen what they saw, I would have identified it.  Might be a UFO to them, but not to a suitably sceptical, educated, and smart observer.


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## mosaix

I think it's only human nature that when someone sees something that they can't explain (in this case because they can't see it properly or access it to examine it in detail) then they will assign an explanation that they _hope_ is true.


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## AE35Unit

mosaix said:


> I think it's only human nature that when someone sees something that they can't explain (in this case because they can't see it properly or access it to examine it in detail) then they will assign an explanation that they _hope_ is true.



Yea, wish fulfillment!


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## Starbeast

*U.F.O.s: Alien space craft or swamp gas?*



skeptical said:


> I am a dabbler in amateur astronomy. I do spend a lot of time outside at night. I live in a location with excellent 'seeing' and no city lights to stuff it up. I am on a hill overlooking the Pacific Ocean with a vast vista to view.
> 
> I have seen satellites, the ISS, meteors, Venus, all the visible planets, assorted aircraft with lights, ships and speeding boats with night lights, etc., etc.
> 
> I have *never *seen a UFO. I say this in the literal meaning of the acronym. That is : I have seen lots of things others might call UFO's, but I am educated and smart enough to work out what each is, making them identified.
> 
> *Nor do I believe that any other person on this planet has seen a UFO. Meaning that if I had been with them and seen what they saw, I would have identified it. Might be a UFO to them, but not to a suitably sceptical, educated, and smart observer.*


 
I know lots of people who've never seen anything strange in the sky, and to see something that takes your breath away is a rare thing, however, there are places in the world where you have a better chance of seeing something amazing (perhaps unearthly). The outworlders seem to have their own agenda, and like I said, it's good to be skeptical.

I've been trained in the military to spot enemy aircraft, when I was in Germany, the sky was so clear you could see the satelites going by regularly, back home I loved watching meteors and comets. When I was a teenager I saw the movie _CLOSE ENCOUNTERS of the THIRD KIND_ in 1977, I thought it was cool, and that was it (just another alien space movie). I would read in the newspaper about people seeing UFOs flying over several states, I thought it was interesting, shrug and forget about them.

But on that night in the 1980's, when I looked up and saw.....the black silent saucer....my interest soared.





 

People really got spooked when hundreds of people in Washington D.C. saw a group of UFOs fly over the capital building in the 1950's. But even after the government immediately ordered jets up threre to confront the invaders who chose to travel through a "No-Fly Zone". The big-shots in the government said it was only swamp gas and downed played the whole thing. I've talked to people who remembered that day, and they thought it was the END of the WORLD!​


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## mosaix

> The big-shots in the government said it was only swamp gas and downed played the whole thing.


Perhaps it was swamp gas.



> I've talked to people who remembered that day, and they thought it was the END of the WORLD!


It's easy to become panicked by something that is difficult to explain. I remember driving home one night along dark country lanes and seeing strange lights in the sky reflected in my rear-view mirror. I was quite spooked by it as they seemed to be following me. From the safety of my garden I took a closer look with a pair of binoculars - it was a laser display by the local rugby club.

The thing is what is more likely? Marsh gas, laser display or aliens locating the Earth from across the galaxy, travelling here and whilst hiding most of the time, sometimes make the mistake of letting us see them?

In every other walk of life, humans live their life on the basis of probability - they cross the road within 30 yards of a bend in the road because the probability is that there isn't an F1 racing car being tested at 200mph on that stretch that will undoubtedly kill them before they can get to the other side.

We eat processed food every day on the probability that it hasn't been poisoned by a mass murderer at the food plant.

I could go on. But the point is that rational human beings, who make every day decisions about their lives on the basis of probability, suddenly suspend this rationality when they see something they can't explain - but would like to explain by something that they long to come true. 

It's more likely that someone is going to be run down by an F1 racing car outside their house than it is that they are going to see an alien spacecraft (especially when they're obviously trying to stay hidden).


----------



## skeptical

Sometimes the explanation is even simpler and more mundane than that.  A couple years ago, I was part of a hoax relating to UFO's.  A bunch of us sent up, at night, a whole lot of helium filled balloons, each carrying a tiny light.   We let them go over the city.   A pure hoax.

And there are the attention seekers.   People will make claims in order to gain attention.  I suspect that a lot of the UFO sightings by 'responsible observers' like airline pilots fit into this category.   Those guys will, for attention or even just for a laugh, invent a story.

I remember the 'fairies at the bottom of the garden' hoax.
Cottingley Fairies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This hoax was carried out by a couple of young gals who used a cheap black and white camera to fake fairies.  People all round the world believed this nonsense until, 60 years later, the surviving lady admitted what they had done.

The biggest variable in claims of ghosts, UFO's psychic ability etc is the human element.  People seek attention.  People set up hoaxes.  People are self deluded.  Add to this the occasional genuine natural phenomenon that can be misinterpreted, and you need not hypothesize about alien visitors.


----------



## The Procrastinator

Skeptical, just the chap!

I really wish you had been with me when I saw my UFO, because I would love to know what it was. I have ruled out:
Marsh gas - too high up
Satellite - did not travel in "straight line". Flashing light.
Aircraft - flight path much too erratic.
Dream - was with other people, who also saw it. Much discussed.

I can be a reasonably objective observer, especially when something is of scientific interest. As an artist one of the things I have trained my eye to do is attempt to see what's there, not what I think should be there (this is harder than it sounds). I am not infallible of course, but this was a group sighting, and no one could explain it. It is a UFO in the classic sense of the word - no one wanted to attribute it to aliens particularly, but we were all at a loss to explain it. One of the group was a trained scientist.

Location: north western NSW, in the Australian bush, southern end of massive eucalypt forest, 35km from nearest town (pop 3500). Closest large town (pop 30 000) is two and a half hours drive away. Often referred to as "the middle of nowhere" by urbanites.
Time: late. Between 11 and 12 pm, full dark, no moon, no clouds. 
Other considerations: this region is famous for astronomy, being elevated and having a high percentage of clear nights. Stars are very visible here. Australia's largest optical research telescope is in the area.
Time of year: Winter. Winter nights can be very clear.

Phenomenon: a flashing light, just brighter than a bright star. Pulsing might be a better description, as the flashing was very regular. Initially I thought I was looking at an aircraft, as they have similar pulsing lights, that flash with mechanical regularity. Aircraft do fly overhead - we are underneath an international flight path, on rare occasions there are military aircraft on training exercises, now and then local light aircraft. I kept watching and it quickly became clear this was not any kind of normal aircraft. While the pulsing light was regular, the movement of the thing was all over the shop. At this point called the others over and about half a dozen of us watched it in fascination. The movement was restricted to a small area of the sky. If you are familiar with Orion's Belt, a smaller area than that encompassed by the three bright stars in the belt. If you are an Aussie, the area of space it moved in was the dark area right near the handle of the Saucepan. This gave us the impression that whatever it was was far above us (this may or may not have been true). The light flashed and moved while we watched, moving in an unpredictable manner - the only regular thing about it was the timing of the flash. Up, down, to the side, this side, down , up, etc. After some time - it felt like ten minutes or so, but hard to say - it stopped moving erratically and began to fade. For the first time it seemed to move in a straight line - the fading of the flash, which remained regular, gave us the impression it was moving away from us in a straight line.

We all stood there dumbfounded then went and drank more and told ghost stories and UFO stories. Nobody had the slightest idea what it could have been.

Anyone out there in knowledgeable land have any clues???

PS we had not drunk enough for alcohol to be causing a group delusion


----------



## skeptical

Procrastinator

Since I was not there, I cannot see the whole picture, meaning my ideas could be wrong.

For what it is worth, here are a couple of ideas.   The flashing light makes it clear to me that this was an aircraft of some kind.   Aliens who avoid making contact would hardly advertise their presence with a flashing light, but humans would.

I am reasonably familiar with Australia, and the general area you describe.  I assume it was well inland and in the more arid part of NSW??   If you had warm patches of land, it could result in thermals rising, which can have weird refraction effects.   One such effect is to make a light appear to come from several different places, moving erratically between them.  This is more likely in a situation where the light is a long way off, and seen through very clear air.


----------



## Starbeast

*U.F.O. Sighting: Fast moving bright lights*



Williamlk said:


> Last summer, my wife and I were standing on our back stoop a little after midnight. We saw what we first thought were three very bright stars. We noticed them because they were _extremely_ bright.
> 
> The only way I can explain what happened next is like this; moments after we saw the three bright specks of light they began to dance about rapidly in circles for about 30 seconds, then they vanished. We just looked at each other in shock. We still talk about it.


 


Starbeast said:


> I've gotton a lot of reports from people who see what look like bright stars zipping around in the starry night skys. A close cousin of mine told me this same story about twenty years ago, and a close friend who lived in Jordan told me he saw these fast moving lights on a starry night in the 1970's. I often wonder what these U.F.O.s are doing, sending signals to us or to other U.F.O.s, or are they just having fun flying around in the upper atmosphere.


 


The Procrastinator said:


> I have ruled out:
> Marsh gas - too high up
> Satellite - did not travel in "straight line". Flashing light.
> Aircraft - flight path much too erratic.
> Dream - was with other people, who also saw it. Much discussed.
> 
> I can be a reasonably objective observer, especially when something is of scientific interest. As an artist one of the things I have trained my eye to do is attempt to see what's there, not what I think should be there (this is harder than it sounds). I am not infallible of course, but this was a group sighting, and no one could explain it. It is a UFO in the classic sense of the word - no one wanted to attribute it to aliens particularly, but we were all at a loss to explain it. One of the group was a trained scientist.
> 
> Time: late. Between 11 and 12 pm, full dark, no moon, no clouds.
> Other considerations: this region is famous for astronomy, being elevated and having a high percentage of clear nights. Stars are very visible here. Australia's largest optical research telescope is in the area.
> Time of year: Winter. Winter nights can be very clear.
> 
> Phenomenon: a flashing light, just brighter than a bright star. Pulsing might be a better description, as the flashing was very regular. Initially I thought I was looking at an aircraft, as they have similar pulsing lights, that flash with mechanical regularity. Aircraft do fly overhead - we are underneath an international flight path, on rare occasions there are military aircraft on training exercises, now and then local light aircraft. I kept watching and it quickly became clear this was not any kind of normal aircraft. While the pulsing light was regular, the movement of the thing was all over the shop. At this point called the others over and about half a dozen of us watched it in fascination. The movement was restricted to a small area of the sky. If you are familiar with Orion's Belt, a smaller area than that encompassed by the three bright stars in the belt. If you are an Aussie, the area of space it moved in was the dark area right near the handle of the Saucepan. This gave us the impression that whatever it was was far above us (this may or may not have been true). The light flashed and moved while we watched, moving in an unpredictable manner - the only regular thing about it was the timing of the flash. Up, down, to the side, this side, down , up, etc. After some time - it felt like ten minutes or so, but hard to say - it stopped moving erratically and began to fade. For the first time it seemed to move in a straight line - the fading of the flash, which remained regular, gave us the impression it was moving away from us in a straight line.




*You tell a familiar story that I hear occasionally Procrastinator, mysterious flashing lights moving quickly in the sky making odd patterns on clear starry nights.*


----------



## Starbeast

*U.F.O.s: Simple Phenomenon or Secretive Aliens?*



mosaix said:


> *Perhaps it was swamp gas.*
> 
> It's easy to become panicked by something that is difficult to explain. The thing is what is more likely? Marsh gas, laser display or aliens locating the Earth from across the galaxy, travelling here and whilst hiding most of the time, sometimes make the mistake of letting us see them?
> 
> But the point is that rational human beings, who make every day decisions about their lives on the basis of probability, suddenly suspend this rationality when they see something they can't explain - but would like to explain by something that they long to come true.


 


skeptical said:


> Sometimes the explanation is even simpler and more mundane than that. A couple years ago, I was part of a hoax relating to UFO's. A bunch of us sent up, at night, a whole lot of helium filled balloons, each carrying a tiny light. We let them go over the city. A pure hoax.
> 
> And there are the attention seekers. People will make claims in order to gain attention. I suspect that a lot of the UFO sightings by 'responsible observers' like airline pilots fit into this category. Those guys will, for attention or even just for a laugh, invent a story.
> 
> The biggest variable in claims of ghosts, UFO's psychic ability etc is the human element. People seek attention. People set up hoaxes. People are self deluded. *Add to this the occasional genuine natural phenomenon that can be misinterpreted, and you need not hypothesize about alien visitors.*


 

You both make great valid points on explaining about what we see is not always what it is, I'm well aware of that fact when I use illusions for magic as entertainment.







​ 

*The 1952 Washington D.C. - U.F.O. Incident*
*may finally be admitted as fact of an outworlder presence.*​ 
Some believe they were trying to make contact with humans,
others believe they wanted us to know that they are real,
and a few believe they were showing us that they don't fear humans.​


----------



## The Procrastinator

Thank you boys, it is _possible_ that weird refraction effects could be responsible. Yes Skeptical it is well inland, you can find it on a map if you like - Coonabarabran is our nearest town, and the forest in question is the Pilliga (aka "the million wild acres"). Not quite arid but heading in that direction. The point in favour of your refraction effects theory is that inland Australia gets amazing temperature variation in winter, and the Coonabarabran area can get a slightly more exaggerated version of this due to being both westerly (warmish days) and elevated (freezing nights). It is not unusual for the temperature to go from 16 C (60.8 F)during the day then down to -4 C (24.8 F) overnight. I cannot remember what the conditions had been that day, but considering it was a cold clear night heading for a frost, it was probably a sunny warmish day. Would this be enough to account for the right conditions?

What gives me pause, however, is the mechanical regularity of the flashing light. As I said it looked like a very bright star, and at first I thought it was an aircraft simply because the light pulse was so regularly spaced. The movement, though, was like nothing any aircraft I have heard of could achieve, not even a helicopter. (Also there was no noise whatsoever - which rules out aircraft nearby - cold winter nights are particularly good at carrying sound, and the only silent manmade object I've seen is a satellite - and satellites don't flit about flashing - but it is conceivable that a weird refraction effect was occurring with something too far away to be heard).

What Starbeast has quoted above sounds very much to me like some kind of refraction effect. What I saw did not dance, spin or zip - what it did do was disappear and reappear at measured time intervals (you could have set your clock by it) but at unpredictable locations within a limited space in the sky. So it doesn't precisely gel with the other examples quoted, but at this stage its the only explanation I've heard. I can't say I'm completely convinced it was an aircraft, but it must be possible. Distance, heat and light can do some very strange things after all!

Thank you for your thinking caps skeptical and Starbeast.


----------



## Williamlk

*Re: Incredible fast moving U.F.O.s in the sky.*



Starbeast said:


> I've gotton a lot of reports from people who see what look like bright stars zipping around in the starry night skys. A close cousin of mine told me this same story about twenty years ago, and a close friend who lived in Jordan told me he saw these fast moving lights on a starry night in the 1970's. I often wonder what these U.F.O.s are doing, sending signals to us or to other U.F.O.s, or are they just having fun flying around in the upper atmosphere.


 
I think they may have given up on us a long time ago.


----------



## Starbeast

*Norway is prepared for U.F.O.s*



Williamlk said:


> I think they may have given up on us a long time ago.


 
Perhaps for some outworld races, a number of ancient civilizations say the people from the stars promise to return, I hope people don't freak-out when that happens. I'd like to see them return in my lifetime, and I hope they're friendly and not hostile or evil.


----------



## J Riff

Welllllll... I think _Skyline,_ the new invasion flick, is a bit extreme...but, realistically,  IF they come here.. regularly... it's to pick something up. Like lifeforms... and take them away. They won't stay for lunch, may only take a few hours and they will be off to continue their shopping trip. Scary, huh?


----------



## J Riff

Well, anyway... it's what I'm slowly writing an entire book about - The Invasion syndrome, except it doesn't have to be a real invasion, simply exploring the endless possibilities of what could happen, IF Aliens ever showed up.
 Hadn't seen those clips - Thanks StarBeast.


----------



## Peter Graham

*Re: Alien Proof?*




> Like I said, I could tell you amazing things



You can _tell_ me anything you like. The Surgeon told people he'd taken a picture of Nessie. The Bradford girls told people they'd taken pictures of fairies in a back garden in Cottingley. Both of them managed to convince experts - in the Cottingley case, the photographic plates were sent to Kodak who apparently swore that they had not been tampered with and that the images were *not* paper cut-outs from Edwardian childrens' books. Which, in fact, they were. Mediums told people that large bedsheets were ectoplasm. 

The real question is can you _prove_ it? You keep _hinting_ that you can and hinting that you have the sort of background which makes your views more credible (ex military and naturally sceptical), but then you find reasons not to do so. Firstly, you said there was no point trying to convince people who won't believe. So I told you I would believe if you could convince me. Which is true. So now you tell me I have to do my own research. But there isn't a lot of point me doing that if you have already done it. So I ask again, will you prove your claims? 

A few grainy pictures and snippets of footage might be evidence of _something_ in the sky, but they aren't evidence of "otherworlders" in the sky. And in any event, we need to know a lot more about the circumstances under which the pictures were taken (and by whom) before we can definitely accept them as "genuine". If two ten year olds with Daddy's camera and a pair of scissors could convince Edwardian Britain that fairies really existed, then what a suitably technology literate individual could do nowadays really could be quite something.





> GOD would be my only witness and believer that I experianced fantastic beings from elsewhere.



Interesting side issue. Did God also create aliens or is he only _our _God?




> this world is filled with illusions (like the governments),



Government isn't an illusion. They really do exist, although I accept you might be talking about Orwellian smoke and mirrors.




> for example I could make a large coin disappear in my hands (with my sleeves rolled up) while you're standing in front of me and it would seem like real magic.



But this is precisely my point. It might _seem_ like real magic, but in fact it isn't. It's just sleight of hand. Now, anyone who doesn't understand sleight of hand and who is ready to believe in the existence of magic could easily see the trick as evidence of true magic. They film you doing it, then post it online with a comment saying this must be genuine, as it was witnessed by X people and the chap who did it was a sober minded ex-military type.

The footage you have been posting in this thread is far more likely than not to be the equivalent of one of these sleight of hand tricks. To prove otherwise is going to involve rather more and rather better quality evidence.

Regards,

Peter

PS: I'm really not setting out to attack you, so if you want to end this conversation, please just say so.


----------



## ScrambleEggHead

So the lens cap was at an oblique angle, and with a little touch up in photo shop -Voilla! We have a black pancake that flys under telephone wires. Fascinating. The night 3 friends of mine and I saw some real UFO's they weren't black, and they were way to fast for anyone to get out thier cameras. These are pretty cool though:

YouTube - 1/4/07 UFO - Denver Colorado meteor shower - space junk?


----------



## skeptical

It is also worth while taking into account human psychology in these discussions.

We all know the story of the trout that grew.
A fisherman catches a 30 cm trout.   He tells his friends, and holds his hands 35 cms apart to illustrate the size.   A year later, he is holding his hands 40 cms apart, and 5 years later, it is 50 cms.

The fisherman is not being dishonest.  His memory has been modified through repeated tellings of the story, and he now firmly believes his prize trout was 50 cms.

Exactly the same thing happens with UFO stories.   What started as a mere blink of something black, becomes stable, and larger, and then fast moving with repeated telling of the story.  UFO stories, like trout stories, grow with each telling, and the story teller does not even realise that his memory is changing.


----------



## Parson

Which in a semi related way, proves that old stand by of advertising, the personal testimonial, is about as bad a way to discover if something is good as there is. And yet any survey will find that the personal testimonial is the *MOST TRUSTED! 

*It just makes me sad.


----------



## Starbeast

*U.F.O.s: Yes or No?*



ScrambleEggHead said:


> So the lens cap was at an oblique angle, and with a little touch up in photo shop -Voilla! We have a black pancake that flys under telephone wires. Fascinating. *The night 3 friends of mine and I saw some real UFO's they weren't black, and they were way to fast for anyone to get out thier cameras.* These are pretty cool though: - Denver Colorado meteor shower -


 


Parson said:


> Which in a semi related way, proves that old stand by of advertising, the personal testimonial, is about as bad a way to discover if something is good as there is. And yet any survey will find that the personal testimonial is the *MOST TRUSTED! *
> 
> It just makes me sad.


 

*It makes me sad too,* I only began this thread because I wanted others to talk about strange things they've encountered like: strange flying craft or alien sightings. Within a short tme, I find myself in the midst of a "witch trial", defending myself so I don't sound like a crazy person. I don't mind people telling me they don't believe until they see it for themselves, I've dealt with that for thirty years. If I can't convince a few family members and friends what I've experianced myself, how can I convince a total stranger. *All I'm doing is posting bits of information on the subject, I wanted to hear what others think, I even recreated an image of exactly what I saw (first post) to get the thread started.*

I guess I only wasted my time with this thread, so.....



Has anyone ever heard of the Disclosure Project?​ 





​


----------



## mosaix

Starbeast - please don't anything that's been said personally, the Chrons isn't like that.

UFO's, I suppose a bit like religion, contain a large element of belief. You either believe or you don't. I personally don't, but by stating that I didn't intend any personal attack - I'm just stating my point of view.


----------



## skeptical

Starbeast.

If you raise a subject towards which there is widespread scepticism, do not be surprised if the response is sceptical.   None of that is personal towards you.  

As far as I am concerned, my non de plume describes me well.   I demand strong and credible evidence for anything that I am to believe.   I follow the adage "  extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."   In doing so, I am not attacking you personally.  I am just remaining consistent.

The suggestion that some UFO's are extraterrestrial is an extraordinary claim.   It requires extraordinary evidence.   To date, I have never seen such a claim that I cannot explain in a mundane way.    It is true that my explanations may sometimes be wrong.   However, they are still more likely than the suggestion that aliens are exploring our world.

It would be easy for me to form a hypothesis to explain your own sighting.  My hypothesis might be wrong, since there is no obvious way to test it.   But the alien idea is still way less probable.


----------



## ScrambleEggHead

*Re: U.F.O.s: Yes or No?*



Starbeast said:


> *It makes me sad too,* I only began this thread because I wanted others to talk about strange things they've encountered like: strange flying craft or alien sightings. Within a short tme, I find myself in the midst of a "witch trial", defending myself so I don't sound like a crazy person. I don't mind people telling me they don't believe until they see it for themselves, I've dealt with that for thirty years. If I can't convince a few family members and friends what I've experianced myself, how can I convince a total stranger. *All I'm doing is posting bits of information on the subject, I wanted to hear what others think, I even recreated an image of exactly what I saw (first post) to get the thread started.*
> 
> I guess I only wasted my time with this thread, so.....




I apologize Starbeast, in re-reading - I did come off a bit inimical. My friends and I were in a fairly dark canyon, where one of us lived at the time, I guess it was 1989 or so, and these lights were oval shaped; too bright to be reflections on clouds, and they were so fast that they could cross about 100 degrees of the sky in roughly one second. there were four of them, and they did a pattern in flight that one would be prone to call "choreographed". it wasn't random at all, and they all flew off in the same direction together. The fact that allows me to tell this story (in comfort) is that there were four of us, and we all saw the same thing. It doesn't mean that because you see something by yourself, that it wasn't real. I've had other strange things happen while I was alone, and I've found that it get's me in trouble when I tell others. The best one can do, I suppose, is to tell your most trusted friends, and hopefully they will be more obliging. Again, no harm was meant, I was just being playful.


----------



## Starbeast

*U.F.O.s: Can be explained, one way or another*



mosaix said:


> UFO's, I suppose a bit like religion, contain a large element of belief. *You either believe or you don't*. I personally don't, but by stating that I didn't intend any personal attack - I'm just stating my point of view.


 
I understand, no worries. It's difficult to grasp if you're never seen one up close.



ScrambleEggHead said:


> In re-reading - I did come off a bit inimical. The fact that allows me to tell this story (in comfort) is that there were four of us, and we all saw the same thing. *It doesn't mean that because you see something by yourself, that it wasn't real.* I've had other strange things happen while I was alone, and *I've found that it get's me in trouble when I tell others*. The best one can do, I suppose, is to tell your most trusted friends, and hopefully they will be more obliging. Again, no harm was meant, I was just being playful.


 
I understand, no worries. That's why I keep a great deal about the subject to myself.



skeptical said:


> *If you raise a subject towards which there is widespread scepticism, do not be surprised if the response is sceptical.* None of that is personal towards you.
> 
> As far as I am concerned, my non de plume describes me well. *I demand strong and credible evidence for anything that I am to believe. I follow the adage " extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."* In doing so, I am not attacking you personally. I am just remaining consistent.
> 
> The suggestion that some UFO's are extraterrestrial is an extraordinary claim. It requires extraordinary evidence. *To date, I have never seen such a claim that I cannot explain in a mundane way.* It is true that my explanations may sometimes be wrong. However, they are still more likely than the suggestion that aliens are exploring our world.
> 
> It would be easy for me to form a hypothesis to explain your own sighting. My hypothesis might be wrong, since there is no obvious way to test it. *But the alien idea is still way less probable.*


 
Very understandable, no need for you to waste your time with this subject. *What I saw was probably a top secret military aircraft*, that would explain the many slow and low flying jet fighters were flying my neighborhood the next day (late afternoon). I remember one jet fighter that flew really low and slow right where I saw the strange disk-shape craft, he was traveling so low that I could see the pilot, and he looked right at me. I'll never forget how uncomfortable I felt when he looked at me.


----------



## Starbeast

*Identified Flying Craft*

Many companies for decades have tried to create actual flying disk shaped aircraft.






 
(concept art)​ 






 
(During World War 2, the Germans tried to fool other countries by hoaxing photos 
showing that they have such saucer technology)​ 


 






 
(The U.S. developed the "Flying Flapjack" near the end of World War 2,
but the project was scrapped not long afterwards)










(Another scrapped project from the 1950's)​


----------



## skeptical

My own scepticism of the alien interpretation of UFO's began when I was a teenager.  I read a couple of George Adamski's books.
George Adamski - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Then I read an expose of Adamski's books, written by a sceptical person.  I realised that I was an idiot to take that crackpot's writings seriously.  I also realised from that expose that each and every photo in Adamski's books had been faked.  The expose even explained how to fake photos like that, and included a number of such fakes.  

Even though I was thoroughly disillusioned, I kept an interest in the subject and I have read of a number of alternative explanations for people's experiences.   If you have full information, it is not too hard to find mundane explanations.

For example :  any report by individuals (or even small groups) which are eye witness accounts - well, to take them seriously you have to assume that the person(s) recounting the sightings are not :
1.  Hoaxers
2.  Liars
3.  Nutters
4.  Dreamers.

That is an assumption that cannot be made, unless there is overwhelming independent evidence.

Another point is that no memory of something dramatic like a UFO, that is more than a few years old, can be considered reliable.   Like the trout that grew, UFO stories change in the repeated telling.   This does not represent dishonesty.  Just the normal fact that human memory is malleable.

There are often clues.  Procrastinator's story is almost certainly an aircraft.  The flashing light is an absolute give-away.  Scramble describes a group of oval lights flashing across the sky in tight formation.  That is utterly characteristic of a nearby light reflected off a window glass or similar.   Small movement of the reflector translates into apparent rapid speed 'across the sky.'

In the same way, I suspect that Starbeast's black object was probably a 'floater', and the memory of a relatively trivial event has been magnified by the modified memory that comes of retelling a story many times.

None of my explanations, of course, are certain, since I do not have all the facts, and I cannot run any test to check my hypotheses.  However, the "aliens are with us" hypothesis seems much, much, less likely.


----------



## Parson

Starbeast, I hope that you did not take what I said as a personal attack. It was in no way meant that way. I have found other people's experiences with UFO's to be interesting. Like I said before, I want them to be true, but to this point the idea of semi hidden aliens does not stack up for me.


----------



## J Riff

Not to mention the Harp stuff..the things one can do with a gigantic microwave...
But, if_ one ( 1 )_ case is true - then we are all idiots for not noticing them.
Talking about Aliens NOT being here is no fun... 
I DO know what is covered up in re: human beings..so the coverup part is easy to believe..
 Then of course there's the dream, or was it a memory... of the place, like a huge gravel pit, with the loud hypnotic humming... and the people walking like zombies onto the spaceship, while reptile-headed creatures with large glowing sticks stood and watched. It was over in less than half an hour and the ship left before it was our turn.... 
 I am willing to testify before congress about a bunch of stuff as well, sign me up.


----------



## J-WO

Sorry, but those Nazi saucers look like they're from a tv series called _Das Photoshop, _starring Jurgen Procnow and Justin Bieber.  

Why would the Nazi's fake saucers when Saucers only reached public notoriety in 1948?  If they were gonna pull such a stunt surely they'd have faked a hovering mega-V2 or some such.


----------



## J-WO

This explains the victory at Gettysberg, no question.  Lincoln was trying to make us sleepwalk from the truth with his goddam address!


----------



## Peter Graham

Hmmm.

Starbeast - I am not going to apologise for anything, as I think you are being a little disingenuous. There is no "witch trial" and no reasonable person reading this thread could fail to be impressed by the polite, respectful and intelligent way in which all posters (you and me included) have conducted themselves.

In my last post, I offered to back out of the discussion if I was causing offence. I also said I felt that you are looking for reasons not to provide the proof you say you have. I'm afraid your "witch trial" comment just confirms that. 

No point anyone falling out, so I think that's stumps.

Regards,

Peter


----------



## Starbeast

*Faked U.F.O.s*



J-WO said:


> Sorry, but those Nazi saucers look like they're from a tv series called _Das Photoshop, _starring Jurgen Procnow and Justin Bieber.
> 
> Why would the Nazi's fake saucers when Saucers only reached public notoriety in 1948? If they were gonna pull such a stunt surely they'd have faked a hovering mega-V2 or some such.


 


 
(some say this is a real photo)​ 
Foo fighters, is what UFOs were called during World War 2 because they looked like glowing spheres much like what people are still reporting today. The Russians, the Germans and the U.S. all reported see strange unidentified craft (spheres of light & saucers), so the Germans thought why not lie and say it was their technology to frighten people. This was a tactic that was used near the end of the war, it didn't help anyways.



J-WO said:


> View attachment 19063
> 
> This explains the victory at Gettysberg, no question. Lincoln was trying to make us sleepwalk from the truth with his ****** address!


 
I always liked that fake photo, but watch the language dude, the Chons Mods might swoop down on you. I wouldn't want you to get into trouble.


----------



## Starbeast

Peter Graham said:


> Starbeast - I am not going to apologise for anything, as *I think you are being a little disingenuous*. There is no "witch trial" and *no reasonable person reading this thread could fail to be impressed by the polite, respectful and intelligent way in which all posters (you and me included) have conducted themselves.*
> 
> In my last post, *I offered to back out of the discussion if I was causing offence.* I also said *I felt that you are looking for reasons not to provide the proof you say you have.* *I'm afraid your "witch trial" comment just confirms that.*
> 
> *No point anyone falling out, so I think that's stumps.*
> 
> Regards, Peter


 
Ok. But you keep saying "prove it, prove it, prove it, prove it, prove it.."
I have no photos, no spaceships to invite you inside, or alien beings that I can ask to visit you, I only have my wonderful crystal clear memory of the many things I witnessed myself.
*However since you keep forgeting what this thread is all about. I will help you to understand...........*

1. You can talk about a sighting that you or someone you know has had. 

2. I'm curious to hear others talk about experiances, rather than me just blabbering away about my own experiances.

*I hope this helps you.*

*And* when the *"Disclosure Project"* is successful in convincing the U.S. government to finally release all info on aliens from other dimensions and worlds, then we'll all know what's been going on for thousands of years.


----------



## Starbeast

*The Unknown and what may happen.......*

*J Riff:* Not to mention the Harp stuff..the things one can do with a gigantic microwave...
If the H.A.R.P. device is real, and is used, it could cause great harm to the planet.

*J Riff:* But, if_ one ( 1 )_ case is true - then we are all idiots for not noticing them.
I thought that too, but some people refuse to believe that aliens are real, but that's ok with me. One of my best friends who didn't believe in outworlders at all, approached me one day and said:

"The other night my daughter said there is something big over the garage, so my family and I looked and we witnessed a big black saucer shaped craft with a couple of lights on it hover slowly and silently by. It was real low and big as a house, we all just stood still and watched it head west, then it rose up slowly and took off fast into the clear sky."

I've known him for thirty years, he is a tough "no-nonsense" kind of guy, but when I saw his face he looked very worried. He was mostly afraid for his children, that's understandable, but he too was shocked by how close it was.

*J Riff:* Talking about Aliens NOT being here is no fun... 
I DO know what is covered up in re: human beings..so the coverup part is easy to believe..
People easily panick, they don't want people to freak out. Plus, if a government gets their hands on alien technology, I doubt they want to share their discovery.

*J Riff:* Then of course there's the dream, or was it a memory... of the place, like a huge gravel pit, with the loud hypnotic humming... and the people walking like zombies onto the spaceship, while reptile-headed creatures with large glowing sticks stood and watched. It was over in less than half an hour and the ship left before it was our turn.... 
I am willing to testify before congress about a bunch of stuff as well, sign me up.

It sounds like a very vivid dream, however, there have been cases where people have been given insight into the future. There are very few rare people who were either blessed by GOD to see visions of the future, or aliens enlightening people to what is going to happen.

Recently within a decade, a number of people seem to be thinking the same thing, that reptilian aliens are returning to enslave people. Long ago, a great number of ancient cultures mention dragons, and they have also depicted them into art, stories and strange tales of reptilian people coming here from a hidden planet in our solar system, PLANET X.


Modern scientists discovered this tenth planet decades ago, it made the headlines everywhere, then suddenly it was hushed up. Because people began to discover that this planet was mentioned by ancient cultures and it has been by Earth (aprox.) every 3600 years. PLANET X, was said to have a race of giants who live on it and they possessed fantastic technology. Some people believe that these giants are evil reptilians that altered our DNA every time they came here and they forced us to build huge structures for them all over the Earth.

Well, if they do return within a few years (which a number of people believe) because it's been roughly 3600 years, then your vivid haunting dream was a vision that became a living nightmare. This senerio was depicted in the movie _The FOURTH KIND._


----------



## skeptical

Continuing my sceptical approach, let me mention the idea of government cover ups.

Conspiracy theory is the subject for a lot of academic research, and certain principles are well known.   Conspiracies do indeed exist, but for the reason below are generally small and unimportant.

The basic principle I want to point out is related to the betrayal of conspiracies.   This usually takes the form of a whistleblower busting open the secrecy.    The aforesaid academic research has come up with a 'magic' number - seven.

OK, I am pulling your leg.  Nothing magic.   It is just an overall average, gained from looking at many conspiracies.   Seven is the average number of members of any conspiracy, at which point the probability of betrayal is 50%.

The more people in a conspiracy, the higher the likelihood that someone will spill the beans.   When you get to 7, you have a 50:50 chance the secret will be betrayed.   If you get to, say, 20 members, the secret is lost.   With nearly 100% certainty!

On this principle, the UFO cover up theories fail.   Any such cover up will involve more than 20 people, which means the likelihood of a whistle blower busting the secret wide open is 100%.  A dead certainty.   Such a secret cannot be kept.

Since that has never happened, we can conclude with surety that no such cover up exists.


----------



## Starbeast

skeptical said:


> Continuing my sceptical approach, let me mention the idea of government cover ups.
> 
> Conspiracy theory is the subject for a lot of academic research, and certain principles are well known. *Conspiracies do indeed exist, but for the reason below are generally small and unimportant.*
> 
> *The basic principle I want to point out is related to the betrayal of conspiracies*. This usually takes the form of a whistleblower busting open the secrecy. The aforesaid academic research has come up with a number - seven.
> 
> *The more people in a conspiracy, the higher the likelihood that someone will spill the beans.* When you get to 7, you have a 50:50 chance the secret will be betrayed. If you get to, say, 20 members, the secret is lost. With nearly 100% certainty!
> 
> *On this principle, the UFO cover up theories fail*. Any such cover up will involve more than 20 people, which means the likelihood of a whistle blower busting the secret wide open is 100%. A dead certainty. Such a secret cannot be kept.
> 
> *Since that has never happened, we can conclude with surety that no such cover up exists.*


 




 



*Basically, it's difficult for most to absorb the idea that an alien space craft crashed in the desert of New Mexico and aliens were recovered along with the wreckage.* However the remaining people who were there as bystanders still to this day remember what happened, because they were threatened they would be killed if they spoke about it. Unfortunately some people that were involved closely with the incident, did try to let other people know what was going on, and they ended up dying from fatal accidents. Including one high ranking officer who documented everything in a journal that was connected with the incident, but before he died, he told his peers that the public has the right to know what is really going on.​ 





(concept art)​ 
Some believe the crash did happen and we gained technology from the damaged alien craft like the micro chip, fiber optics, and the laser to name a few. With this new technology we made quick advancements in electronics, like everything from making smaller devices like portable radios, to building giant piloted rockets to leave Earth.​ 
But some of the aircraft technology was recovered at the end of World War 2 from the Germans, like for example the "flying wing" design, the jet engine and basic rocket propulsion.​ 




 
(Remains of a German World War 2 Flying Wing in a museum)​ 




 
(German World War 2 jet in a museum)​ 





 

(German V-2 rocket in a museum)​


----------



## skeptical

Starbeast

I am sure you are well aware of the fact that the alien interpretation of Roswell is thoroughly debunked.


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## J Riff

Oh geeee, no, noooo.... a conspiracy of thousands of people is quite possible...if the MONEY is there. That's how it works, not any other way. 
This is a fact, not a theory. 
 Aliens every 3600 yrs. ... I thot it was more like every hundred years...which puts them back here in...approx 2040...since the last appearance was in Europe during the war.
 If this is true, they, the Alien reptile drones (not real living aliens but creatures grown specifically for long voyages in confined space) ...will be here for approx. an hour or less...to grab up lifeforms and leave. They don't care - we are livestock, nothing more, to these barely conscious critters. That's theory...
 But the tenth planet is another legend that persists. Astronomers have debunked the heck out of it, so it may have it's origin in something else. 
I heard this story too, lonnng ago... we came from another, destroyed planet,. where everything we have achieved on Earth had already been accomplished... then it was destroyed by super-weapons...... something like that, but who knows?
 The other part of this theory of 'Alien' visitations is that some 'other', more highly-evolved aliens, noticed that we here on earth had progressed to the point wher we could no longer be regarded as animals, and taken away by the reptile-clones... and these are the white balls or other 'craft' seen zipping about. They are watching and nothing more, and are also not actual Aliens, merely their observers. animal or machine.
 That's the thory and it makes some sense... they come here to GET stuff, no other reason...and we are now a protected species... until, one day, finally.... maybe..


----------



## skeptical

Riff

Facts count more than fairy tale stories.

And no.   You cannot have a conspiracy of thousands, no matter how much money is there.  There will always be people who have a different agenda, and will do crazy things even when it means forfeiting money.

Best example is the Mafia.   Those guys have a great incentive plan.
_"Keep quiet and you will make heaps of $$$$.   Talk and we kill you!"_ 
In spite of this, the various Mafia families keep getting betrayed by members who go to the police.  The Mafia are now seriously weakened by repeated betrayals.

So the simple fact is that, if you have too many people in a conspiracy, it will be betrayed.


----------



## J Riff

Oh what nonsense. That's theory. Try ten thousand people - absolutely no prob. Has been done - IS being done.
 I guess you think that if someone TALKS ...things will collapse...wrong. 
TRY and reveal things that wealthy people have conspired on.... you are 'mentally unbalanced' ...off to jail you go, where someone punches you in the back of the head for twenty bucks and you forget allll about it.
 No, they won't 'pay you off'.... to be more clear...what this is - is Crime, highly perfected crime. The C-word has been turned into mush, doesn't mean anything anymore.


----------



## skeptical

Riff

Name, with evidence, any long term conspiracy of 10,000 people that has not been betrayed.   It is a mythical animal.  It does not exist.  No conspiracy of that size remains secret.  In fairly short order, it becomes public knowledge and has to operate under the spotlight.

Once something is revealed, it is no longer a conspiracy.


----------



## J Riff

Rubbish. Money talks louder than you and every other great thinker. 
Whree did you get this crakpot theory...'no conspiracy of more than blahBlah..." who thinks this junk up>? 
 Aliens I admit to not knowing  anything for sure, but human beings..rich ones and their minions.. get away with huge crimes involving thousands of people that go on for decades, and no super-hero or cops can do anything about it.
 Sheesus. Next question.


----------



## J Riff

Sorry. 
I went all through the 'Aliens are here/not here argument over on the astronomy board, whre pro Nasa-types can punture each and every theory with glee and scienterrific proof - and I believe them, they have it right.
 No-one can, or should have to - Prove _ anything... everyone should just be wondering a bit is all. Certainly, nobody can disprove it, so really there shouldn't be an argument at all, merely speculation as to .."IF they are here - how the heck are they doing it and why can't we have them round to tea?


----------



## skeptical

Riff

I am sorry, but your views appear to be based on personal gut feel rather than empirical data.

My comments on conspiracy theory come from actual researchers who study the subject and find out about real, not made-up, conspiracies.   There are any number of conspiracies that run their course and then become public knowledge.  They can be studied and their quirks analysed.  One quirk, as I have pointed out, is that large numbers of members mean a whistleblower is inevitable.

This is not something I made up.  This is real.   

Sadly, the whole field of human conspiracies is rife with crackpot theories.  I think you have been influenced by those.


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## Pyan

I'm sure I don't have to remind posters in this thread that we have very strict rules about _ad hominem_ attacks and flame wars here, and failure to comply with the Forum Rules can have a detrimental effect on posting privileges.


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## J Riff

No, it's just the C-Word - it has been tricked up - made into the purvue of crackpots.
 Any crime involving two people is a conspiracy. There are many far-reaching, decades-lasting crimes involving companies, governments, private gropus et. al. These are real conspiracies involving vast $$$$$.
 Anyone who opposes this view is working for 'them', intentional or not.


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## Parson

J Riff said:


> "IF they are here - how the heck are they doing it and why can't we have them round to tea?



In the interests of a smile I re-offer my last 75 word challenge as a way for us to sit down and have tea:

The captain sighed. It was time for first contact with the humans. They had watched and waited. Their orders were clear. They were to make a peaceable contact. However, the order from the exosociologist-in-charge made her very uneasy. With great reservations she pushed “start.” Her ship started spinning, lights started flashing, and the speakers started blasting out the musical message. “Why can’t we be friends...” She feared she knew why the group was called “War.


Who could resist a disco ball spinning music machine?


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## Starbeast

skeptical said:


> Starbeast
> 
> I am sure you are well aware of the fact that the alien interpretation of Roswell is thoroughly debunked.


*There are people who still believe it happened.*




 
(Jesse Marcel holding pieces of a weather balloon)​ 



*skeptical:* My own scepticism of the alien interpretation of UFO's began when I was a teenager. I read a couple of George Adamski's books.
George Adamski - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Then I read an expose of Adamski's books, written by a sceptical person. I realised that I was an idiot to take that crackpot's writings seriously. I also realised from that expose that each and every photo in Adamski's books had been faked. The expose even explained how to fake photos like that, and included a number of such fakes. 



 
(George Adamski)​ 
Even though I was thoroughly disillusioned, I kept an interest in the subject and I have read of a number of alternative explanations for people's experiences. If you have full information, it is not too hard to find mundane explanations.



 
(One of many photos from George Adamski)​ 
For example : any report by individuals (or even small groups) which are eye witness accounts - well, to take them seriously you have to assume that the person(s) recounting the sightings are not :
1. Hoaxers
2. Liars
3. Nutters
4. Dreamers.



 
(concept art of Mr Adamski's contact)​ 
That is an assumption that cannot be made, unless there is overwhelming independent evidence.
I  always found it interesting that a great number of people believed his stories without question or checking for any evidence to support his claims, and he had fans that followed him blindly.




*skeptical:* Another point is that no memory of something dramatic like a UFO, that is more than a few years old, can be considered reliable. Like the trout that grew, UFO stories change in the repeated telling. This does not represent dishonesty. Just the normal fact that human memory is malleable.

In the same way, *I suspect that Starbeast's black object was probably a 'floater'*, and the memory of a relatively trivial event has been magnified by the modified memory that comes of retelling a story many times.

None of my explanations, of course, are certain, since I do not have all the facts, and I cannot run any test to check my hypotheses. However, the "aliens are with us" hypothesis seems much, much, less likely.

You still make a very good hypothesis, a good friend of mine made the same point.




 



> *anonymous: *"Low flying training jet aircraft need to gain altitude quickly after drifting downward, hence when the jet accelerates, emissions are forced out immediately which at times can cause dark clouds of smoke to remain after the aircraft darts away. Also the "hissing sound you heard can be the noise made from one of the many large insects that are native to your area. So if you combined the two together, you can get a false image of a strange thing in the sky, and when the smoke was rising up and clearing, it appeared to look like a disk flying quickly away."


 
*She did make a vaild hypothesis too.*​


----------



## Starbeast

*Alien Proof?*



Peter Graham said:


> You can _tell_ me anything you like. The Surgeon told people he'd taken a picture of Nessie. The Bradford girls told people they'd taken pictures of fairies in a back garden in Cottingley. Both of them managed to convince experts - in the Cottingley case, the photographic plates were sent to Kodak who apparently swore that they had not been tampered with and that the images were *not* paper cut-outs from Edwardian childrens' books. Which, in fact, they were. Mediums told people that large bedsheets were ectoplasm.
> 
> A few grainy pictures and snippets of footage might be evidence of _something_ in the sky, but they aren't evidence of "otherworlders" in the sky. And in any event, we need to know a lot more about the circumstances under which the pictures were taken (and by whom) before we can definitely accept them as "genuine". If two ten year olds with Daddy's camera and a pair of scissors could convince Edwardian Britain that fairies really existed, then what a suitably technology literate individual could do nowadays really could be quite something.
> 
> The footage you have been posting in this thread is far more likely than not to be the equivalent of one of these sleight of hand tricks. To prove otherwise is going to involve rather more and rather better quality evidence.


 
*You do make a very strong point*, photos that show a large strange aquatic beasts swimming, or giant hairy man-like creatures roaming wooded areas and odd phenomenon in the sky can be all easily faked. Especially now-a-days with the kind of technology we have today, and with that said, it makes it even harder to sift through the mountains of pictures to find authentic photographic proof.




 
For example, a great number of people believed this was a real photograph of an alien space craft for a few decades. However, if you carefully look closer, you can see the shadow of the small "UFO" (model) on the truck and the reflection of the truck on the underside of the "UFO" (made from car hubcaps).​


----------



## ScrambleEggHead

skeptical said:


> Riff
> 
> Facts count more than fairy tale stories.
> 
> And no.   You cannot have a conspiracy of thousands, no matter how much money is there.  There will always be people who have a different agenda, and will do crazy things even when it means forfeiting money.
> 
> Best example is the Mafia.   Those guys have a great incentive plan.
> _"Keep quiet and you will make heaps of $$$$.   Talk and we kill you!"_
> In spite of this, the various Mafia families keep getting betrayed by members who go to the police.  The Mafia are now seriously weakened by repeated betrayals.
> 
> So the simple fact is that, if you have too many people in a conspiracy, it will be betrayed.



But the question is what makes a conspiracy a conspiracy? The fact that it isn't based on truth? What if it_ is _based on truth? Is it still a conspiracy? 

And by the way, the Mafia is not a conspiracy in the same category as UFO believers.  
The purpose of the Mafia is to make lot's of money for it's members (and clients), doing things that would generally be considered illegal. Yes, there is some motivation to hide the things they do, but there is little motivation to portray a false image of what they do, see, or perpetrate. In point of fact, they are scary, and they want you to believe that they are scary. By definition of law, the Mafia do engage in conspiracy because they "plan" to do the evil things they do as a group. 

People who've seen UFO's do not really constitute a conspiracy, because it is not generally an intentional group thing. I'm sure there have been such pranks, but I would suggest that as more the exception than the rule. There are as many ways to dismiss what people have experienced as there are things that people have experienced. Reality is subjective, and that's the plain truth. You can reason away things that people tell you all you want, but that isn't going to change the experience that they are recalling.


----------



## skeptical

Starbeast

My compiments.
That was a couple of very gracious posts.  Nice to see you being such a gentleman.  A great example for the rest of us to follow.


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## J-WO

Skeptical,

I've been trawling through wikipedia looking at historical conspiracies and, I have to say, your 'rule of seven' holds water thus far. Fascinating.

Initially I thought 'Hang on- the assasination of Caesar had nearly 40 conspiritors in all, but I soon recalled that a)- they got down to the job pretty quickly, B)- although there were 40ish they would meet up in groups of five and have go betweens and c)- the conspiracy actually _was_ given away to Marc Anthony, though he couldn't help in time.

Watergate had more than seven and the Gunpowder plot had twelve.   Interestingly, while wikipeading, I found that some in England believed the Gunpowder plot itself to be a conspiracy, in order to make the populace fear Catholics and thus strengthen King James' position.  Guy Fawkes was a patsy!


----------



## Michael01

How ironic. I just wrote a paper about this very subject for my “Cosmic Origins” class. The instructor told us we could write about anything we wanted as long as it was “controversial.” I chose ancient astronaut and intervention theory. But before I get into that, I will relate my personal experiences and my interpretations of them (which I did not include in my paper), in accordance with the original purpose of this thread.

When I was about twelve, my mother, my brother and I stood outside watching something that seemed relatively odd but not “freaky”—at least not in my estimation. What was really odd was that their descriptions of this event were entirely different from mine. They say they saw what many people report in cases like this: oval shaped lights dancing around in the sky. I saw only bright red lights that looked like stars, apparently stationary, that slowly faded away and disappeared. This suggests that they could have been moving upward, I suppose, but that’s merely speculation on my part.

I have no interpretation of this. Of course, I can come up with any number of fairly reasonable explanations for it, but what I can’t explain is why I saw something different. It could be psychological, I suppose.

The second incident was when I was about eighteen. I was with a group of friends in a rural area, the only covered bridge remaining in Maryland. We saw a large black silhouette against the clear night sky, with no lights, moving in complete silence but not very high. It seemed to move like a large feather, wavering slightly back and forth except it progressed with a slow, forward motion.

I don’t know how to interpret this, either, although some ideas come to mind. The first thing is perhaps something like a kite, which seems extremely unlikely. Another is some kind of top-secret aircraft—maybe. Surely, we could all think of some explanations that are more likely than an alien spacecraft. Regardless, I have no idea what it really was.

Like many science buffs, I am inclined to believe in extraterrestrial intelligence. I’m just not sure how viable it is for them to reach us through the vast distances of space. I think it’s _possible_, but that’s as far as it goes.

So…I did a lot of research for my paper and my conclusion was that all the evidence is inconclusive—either way. There are some things I have questions about, which I think are valid questions requiring further investigation. I do not think these “questions” constitute evidence, however.

Some of those questions involve the genetic differences between humans and the primate species to which we are most closely related and possible ruins of antediluvian civilizations—among other things.

While the genetic evidence concurs that we are, in fact, more closely related to chimpanzees than any other species on Earth, what seems like a relatively small difference is actually quite astounding. The differences amount to something like 30 million base pairs, while most other closely related species share a lot more of their DNA. Also, all other primates have forty-eight chromosomes but humans have only forty-six. I do not believe this is evidence that aliens genetically engineered humans, although it is one (albeit highly unlikely) possibility. A more reasonable explanation is that humans experienced an unprecedented rate of evolution due to exposing themselves to more environmental pressures than any other large species on Earth. This explanation is also a bit unconventional, although it has a much higher probability of being true.

As for the ruins, if they are ruins of prehistoric cities, I still see no reason to attribute them to alien influence. I dislike any theory that suggests humankind is not capable of such feats, as many ancient astronaut theorists like to claim. In every documentary I’ve ever seen on the subject, someone always says, “There’s no way humans at that time could have done this without help.” I just can’t get behind that statement.

One example is the Great Pyramid. On the History Channel’s _Ancient Alien_ series, the Publisher of _Legendary Times Magazine_ Giorgio A. Tsoukalos said, “You would have to cut, transport, and put into place one stone every nine seconds” to complete such a building in the twenty-two year time frame many scholars claim. But did the ancient Egyptians actually cut and transport the stones from the quarry to the building site? At least one, I think rather reliable, study suggests they did not (at least not for _all_ the stones). An article from _Live Science_ by Sheila Beringer and Dorilona Rose focuses on the research of Michel Barsoum, Michael Carrell, and Joseph Davidovits. These researchers performed “scanning electron microscope observations and other [tests]” and concluded that many of the stones were a mixture of broken limestone and other elements similar to cement or concrete. If this is correct (and it seems likely), the Egyptians had no need to carry the stones and they could have built the Great Pyramid in twenty-two years without divine or alien intervention.

I also have questions about some of the relics and descriptions in religious or mythological texts. Perhaps these questions are valid (and, for my own reasons, I think they are), but they are not “evidence.”

A book by Jenny Randles was also very interesting in some respects, although I didn’t read the first half because it was mostly eye-witness accounts. I think I’ve heard enough of them by now that I probably won’t see anything new in them. But I did read the last few chapters, when she discusses possible explanations for alien abduction. Despite the fact that she had her own UFO experiences, she still considers the possibility of purely psychological phenomena to be a valid path of inquiry. Of course, she also thought it was equally possible the “aliens” actually were gods, angels, or some other type of spiritual entity with similar agendas, just as the ancients described in their texts. The one I liked was the idea of some kind of step in human biological evolution.

Anyway, like I said, I think the evidence is inconclusive either way. The context does suggest that there is some reason to speculate alien visitation and intervention, but it isn’t the only explanation—and certainly not the most likely. I guess you could say I’m “on the fence.” 

I’d just like to leave you all with one final thought. Skeptical: Your observations concerning conspiracies are probably true, but must that mean people will believe the whistleblowers? Even if they spout their knowledge to the world, will they be able to produce evidence themselves? If there was solid evidence, could they spirit it away from whatever protections are likely in place to prevent them from such action—_alive_ (  ...just adding a bit of melodrama)? As far as possibilities go, I think conspirators, especially those in positions of authority, are very good at feeding misinformation to the general public. Again, this doesn’t mean they’re hiding aliens or alien technology; I just think they might be able to handle some leaks and still mislead most people about the “whole truth.”


----------



## J Riff

Aliens and other far-out stuff, sure, someone will blab so what? No proof. But the Government...and certain other loosely-related groups- are sitting on _mountains_ of lies, huge ones. Pull out one brick, one big story and down it all comes. Self-protecting, lotta money at stake. Hundreds of people can talk, thousands can know something is wrong, yet it sits there. That theory of seventy is wot's half-baked. Maybe it makes sense in that, sure, someone may talk, but nothing happens!
 Oh, someone is alive who was present on the grassy knoll that fateful day?? One of six and a half people, just barely able to avoid talking!!...TRY and talk about this stuff. Even if you have the goods, it's off to the nuthatch.


----------



## Michael01

Exactly! A friend of mine once said to me, "Governments are self-sustaining entities." Seems pretty accurate. They will surely do _whatever_ _it takes_ to stay in power and keep us looking the other way when they want. One way is to make things as confusing as possible, so we're left scratching our heads and wondering, "What just happened here?"

Something leaks, someone gets locked up (could be someone labeled a crackpot; sometimes the conspirators are caught - or so we're led to believe), and we're left with bits of the truth, rumors, and wild theories that are probably far off the mark.

EDIT: So I'm still likely to scoff at conspiracy theories. The truth is probably buried too deeply to sort it out from the mess. Oh, wait...that actually constitutes a sort of conspiracy theory, doesn't it?

EDIT again: Sorry. I forgot to mention that the "large black silhouette" was triangular. Even though there were no lights, we could still see it because it was fairly close - not far above the treetops, I think.


----------



## skeptical

Michael

Couple of points.

First on pyramids.
A  researcher recently took a sample of pyramid rock and analysed it. He found he could 'make' pyramid stone in a process similar to pouring concrete. It seems to be a mixure of several components that set solid. All those components were readily available to ancient Egyptians.  Assuming he is correct, this kinda takes away the mystery of how the pyramids were made, don't you think?
http://www.livescience.com/history/070518_bts_barsoum_pyramids.html

Second :
Back to conspiracy theory. Let me put this in everyday terms to make it easy to understand.

Imagine you have just found out that your teenage sister is pregnant, and her boyfriend has just skipped the country. This is a 'hot' secret. Now imagine you tell someone, after swearing him/her to secrecy. You now have a significant risk the secret will be revealed. Now imagine you tell ten people, after swearing them to secrecy. You can absolutely *guarantee* the secret will be common knowledge within days!

The hypothetical situation we are discussing is that the 'hot' secret is that a few of the UFO sightings are of aliens exploring the Earth. This is now a government secret. How many people will share that secret? Obviously, the top officials and their staff. Researchers and their staff. and no doubt, others also. Total is dozens, if not hundreds of people. Chances of the secret being revealed? Exactly 100%.

Since the whistleblower is someone with access to the data, that person undoubtedly would have access to the evidence also. There would be no secret left.


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## Michael01

skeptical said:


> First on pyramids.
> A researcher recently took a sample of pyramid rock and analysed it. He found he could 'make' pyramid stone in a process similar to pouring concrete. It seems to be a mixure of several components that set solid. All those components were readily available to ancient Egyptians. Assuming he is correct, this kinda takes away the mystery of how the pyramids were made, don't you think?
> The Surprising Truth Behind the Construction of the Great Pyramids | LiveScience


 
This is _exactly _what I quoted in my post. It was _exactly_ the point I wanted to make. To repeat what I said:



> An article from _Live Science_ by Sheila Beringer and Dorilona Rose focuses on the research of Michel Barsoum, Michael Carrell, and Joseph Davidovits. These researchers performed “scanning electron microscope observations and other [tests]” and concluded that many of the stones were a mixture of broken limestone and other elements similar to cement or concrete. If this is correct (and it seems likely), the Egyptians had no need to carry the stones and they could have built the Great Pyramid in twenty-two years without divine or alien intervention.


 
So, yeah. I _do_ think. 

However, my point about a huge conspiracy conducted by people with plenty of power and money is that _it doesn't matter if the secret gets out_. At least not immediately. There are too many people in the world to reach them all or even convince a signifcant number of them so quickly, and too many ways to sweep it under the rug. Over time, it might actually become common knowledge. The conspirators obviously cannot keep a tight rein on it for long, but they can sow the seeds of doubt and make them stick in many (not all) minds for a little longer. Perhaps even a few decades or more, before they lose complete control.

In fact, I'm inclined to think it's possible (not at all definite, just _possible_) that not all the conspirators involved in Watergate were caught. Those who were caught might not even know everyone involved. J-WO's example of Caesar's assasination comes to mind - each individual does not need to know _all_ the others. Then, when someone gets caught, you have your fall guys. And yeah, even a President can take a fall in something like this, because there are definitely more powerful people in the US than him (since he's probably got his hands in their pockets). At least, this scenario seems plausible to me. Remember, despite the Watergate scandal and subsequent impeachment, Nixon is still revered as a former President of the United States (in some ways - although ridiculed in others).

EDIT: I pretty much feel the same about this as I do with alien theories: there are some points that need clarification. It does not necessarily mean something outlandish is happening and it certainly isn't evidence for anything, but it does mean that not all of the questions have been answered satisfactorily.

Edt again: Sorry, when I said "the 'evidence' is inconclusive," I should have said "the _data_ is inconclusive."


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## Starbeast

*Wikileaks: U.F.O. info to come!*


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## skeptical

I am always pleased to see secret stuff exposed.  I am a fan of Wikileaks.  It represents a movement towards real transparency in government, which can only be healthy.

On UFO's, I predict a pretty ho hum release.   If there had been anything dramatic, we would have heard of it by now.

But whatever.   Long live Julian Assange and confusion to his enemies!


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## J Riff

Unreleased UFO material? Is there any Scorpions tunes? 

 Seriously, nothing will change. WikiLeaks can come on over, I'll talk, but nothing will happen because there's $$$ involved. That's the bottom line, every time.


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## Michael01

Interesting. Well, we'll see, I guess.



skeptical said:


> On UFO's, I predict a pretty ho hum release. If there had been anything dramatic, we would have heard of it by now.


 
I predict...you're probably right.

Darn, I'm such an agnostic when it comes to UFOs. 

Edit: Checking out Wikileaks for the first time. I didn't pay much attention to it before because of the "wiki" (making it seem similar to Wikipedia in my mind). Seems rather journalistic, though. Maybe it's easier to expose secrets and conspiracies than I previously thought. Over 390,000? Really? That's _extremely_ unprecedenteed, isn't?


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## skeptical

The fact that numerous politicians are running around like rats on a heated steel plate, looking for a way to charge Julian Assange, is probably a pretty good indication that he is doing something right!


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## J Riff

The Wikssters would have been stopped if they had any real dirt, any expensive stuff. I'd like to say I'm hopeful, but these exposes have shown up before. Think anyone will lay charges on, say, NASA? If they do, the payoff will go to the wrong people! Their people. Bulletproof.
 Still..... here's hoping.


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## Michael01

Hmm. Interesting thoughts. Is there a thread for Wikileaks? I mean, we're sort of within context, but if I express anymore thoughts on this I might start a derail.


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## Starbeast

*U.F.O. Sightings: Russia*





 


*I was very impressed with this footage.*






> *anonymous* - "I saw these same kind of lights in a Russian forest back in 1989."


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