# What's the most epic SFF story ever, and why?



## HareBrain (May 5, 2009)

You read the title. Now answer the question!

What makes a story truly epic? My own thought is that it needs a personal story of intense significance to the characters involved, set within, and interacting with, a vast backdrop of political or other world-changing events, ideally where the very nature of reality is at least part of the story, and is perhaps even changed by it.

My personal contender, though perhaps not one many will have experienced, is Miyazaki's manga of Nausicaa (rather than the film). Though I'm a bit doubtful about this as her relationship is with the world as a whole rather than any particular person.

What's yours?


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## Shadow Trooper (May 5, 2009)

That's a hard question as there are so many.


I like the premise of BSG in that it took you on a journey that wasn't the normal sitting around the captains chair and laughing at the end of every episode (STOS). In fact sometimes it was bloody miserable but I think that's what made the journey such an experience and the series' an epic.


On the other side of the coin a film called Silent Running always sticks in the mind. 
I think it is probably because I was around 12 when I first saw it, so I could understand the storyline but was still affected  by the things that kids get upset by (like the little robots Huey Dewey and Louie, when one was lost I was devistated, *and why* did he have to send one of the little robots off on his own at the end! LOL).

I'm sure I'll remember another series' or film that I thought was an epic (Close Encounters is pretty close).


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## AE35Unit (May 5, 2009)

We seem to be talking movies here so for me its 2001 a space Odyssey. Its the only SF movie I've seen that depicts space pretty much how it is,with no wooshing space ships or twanging lasers. Yet it manages to make space an exciting if harsh and dangerous place to be!


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## Rodders (May 5, 2009)

Epic SFF? Wow, there's just so many. 

Star Wars obviously. This film came at a time when Epic story telling was all but dead. A simple premise, but one that has stuck with us and endured for over 30 years. It revolutionised not only special effects and the way that films are made, but i also felt it changed the way that stories where told. 

Star Trek (All). Again, this was telling Science Fiction Stories in a way that hadn't been told before. They were mature, intellignt and engaging. Their lagacy is still with us. (I think also kudos to TNG. Althought not Epic in scale, it did bring Science Fiction back to the small screen and was successful. As such i felt that it opened the flood gates for a lot of other programs.) 

Babylon 5. What can i say. The first time that anyone has attempted a Five Year Story Arc. And what an arc this was. The Shadow War, A Corrupted Earth Government brought to it's knees by an honest man, telepaths, Vorlons, Minbari and Shadows. G'Kar and Londo. Even though this show is 16 years old, i still feel that this is the pinnacle of what can be acheived. Some slated it Special Effects. I liked them. But that story will always stand out and i think it still sets a very high standard for Sci-Fi TV that has yet to be matched. 

Farscape. Again, great concept and Characters that were second to no one. (I think only Firefly comes close.) 

BSG (The new series.) Again, a dark tale frought with human Politics, foibles, weaknesses and squablings. A story not so much about the Cylon genocide of the humans but more about how disgusting our nature really is. This show almost brought Sci-Fi into the mainstream. No small feat. 

A special mention to 2001. From our first tool using days to an interplanetary expidition that marks the first interspecies contact. 

Another special mention to Lord of the Rings (obviously).


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## HareBrain (May 5, 2009)

Definitely agree with Babylon 5 there, Rodders. Not sure about some of the others - epic in a sense maybe, but not contenders for *most* epic. Here's the dimensions I think a truly epic story has to fill:

1. Depth: it has to explore what it means to be human (or other race I guess), how we relate to each other and the world, in a way that is relevant to us.

2. Breadth: has to have wide backdrop of politics, war, society etc, and also probably in terms of range of characters.

3. Time: past, present and future, in terms of where we've come from, and where we're going.

4. Length: has to be a long enough tale to create a sense of immersion (though if it attempts to do the above it can't really be anything else)

2001, for example, succeeds in 3, and partly 1, but not 2. LOTR, much as I love it, avoids important areas of human experience and has little to say about where we might be going, except downhill from the golden age. So, both epic, but not quite up there with the epicest, in my view.

What other ways might people use to define "most epic"?


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## Rodders (May 5, 2009)

I don't know. Isn't an epic defined by the scale. I'd say each of them were epic in their own way. (But then i would wouldn't i? ) 

Each of these series were ambitious in scope.

I think that the legacy left behind by some of these should also be taken into account.


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## Omphalos (May 5, 2009)

Olaf Stapledon sure did do some epic SF in his time.  His _Last and First Men_ was actually the basis for most of what came out of England after that, so I would have to say Last and First Men was the one of the major seminal epic pieces.


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## AE35Unit (May 5, 2009)

Omphalos said:


> Olaf Stapledon sure did do some epic SF in his time.  His _Last and First Men_ was actually the basis for most of what came out of England after that, so I would have to say Last and First Men was the one of the major seminal epic pieces.



I have Last and first Men on my bookshelf but have yet to pluck up the courage to read it. I fear most of it would go over my head


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## jojajihisc (May 6, 2009)

AE35Unit said:


> I have Last and first Men on my bookshelf but have yet to pluck up the courage to read it. I fear most of it would go over my head



It's about as dense a sci-fi book as you'll ever read. Very good though.


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## reiver33 (May 7, 2009)

I'd go for B5, if only for the guts and vision it took to hold out for the 5-year arc. I had the whole thing on video and once, when off with the flu, couldn't sleep, just hunkered down and watched the first 22 tapes in one session; suddenly references to what happened 'x' episodes (years!) ago start cropping up and you realise just how intricate the never-quite-fully-explained back story was. 

In recent years BSG is about the only thing that comes close, and I applaud it for the dark edge it brought to SiFi, which too often lapses into a split between fireproof cast members and disposables.


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## The Procrastinator (May 7, 2009)

Does this have to be TV? If not I'd say _Dune_. Ticks all the boxes. A true epic.


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## Hilarious Joke (May 7, 2009)

I'd say _Lord of the Rings_. I wouldn't say it avoids important areas of human experience. It looks at power, ambition, corruption, love, friendship, hope, despair, redemption, greed, suffering, good and evil. The epic-ness is embodied in those four humble hobbits that prove that the potential for greatness is in all of us.


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## laestadius (May 15, 2009)

I'm going to have to agree with 2001: A Space Odyssey, it's just an amazing story. Most if not all sci-fis up to that point were about aliens invading or people going off to fight them. Aliens coming to study and uplift mankind? I think it was a first. It was influential and, well words escaped me at the moment but it was just fantastic.

Also, Blade Runner.


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## manephelien (May 17, 2009)

Oh, I agree on 2001 too.

My candidate is only a short story, The Last Question by Isaac Asimov. But it's truly epic in scope, plotting the course of humanity to the very end of the universe, and possibly beyond.


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## Omphalos (May 18, 2009)

AE35Unit said:


> I have Last and first Men on my bookshelf but have yet to pluck up the courage to read it. I fear most of it would go over my head


 
sorry AE, must have missed this when you posted it.  It probably wont go over the head of anyone who has read as much SF as you - but it is really oddly paced, and there is virtually no characterization, so it youre right to expect a different kind of experience.  Starting with that book is like jumping into the deep end of the pool too, so if you want a taste of Stapledon try something else like _Sirius_ or _Odd John_ first, and save _Last and First Men_ and _Star Maker_ for later.  

Honestly, the first time I read it it took me about six months to get through it, and I generally read _fast_.  It will reward you though, and now that I have read it Ill be damned if I can find any older British SF that was not at least slightly influenced by it.


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## ktabic (May 18, 2009)

One thing I would recommend if you are about to start reading Last and First Men is to skip ahead to Chapter VI . The earlier chapters are interesting, but kind of distract and made the books ups and downs even longer. YMMV


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## Paige Turner (May 19, 2009)

The Bicentennial Man (by Isaac Asimov, of course) is a beautiful, compelling story about the innocence, the yearning, the potential, and the ultimate tragedy of the human condition. That Asimov writes such a complete story with such Hemingwayesque succinctness is a true triumph of literature. I still can't read that story without crying.


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## Omphalos (May 19, 2009)

ktabic said:


> One thing I would recommend if you are about to start reading Last and First Men is to skip ahead to Chapter VI . The earlier chapters are interesting, but kind of distract and made the books ups and downs even longer. YMMV


 
What part is that?  After the fall of the Patagonians?  You miss a lot by cutting that out.  Personally I though that some of the most interesting stuff was up to the fall of the Patagonians.  It picked up again after the cloud being part - I thought the middle dragged.


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## Ursa major (May 19, 2009)

Omphalos said:


> Olaf Stapledon sure did do some epic SF in his time. His _Last and First Men_ was actually the basis for most of what came out of England after that, so I would have to say Last and First Men was the one of the major seminal epic pieces.


 
_Star Maker_ (Star Maker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), also by Stapledon, has an even broader scope.







AE35Unit said:


> I have Last and first Men on my bookshelf but have yet to pluck up the courage to read it. I fear most of it would go over my head


 
I had no problems reading _Star Maker_, so you shouldn't either.


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## AE35Unit (May 19, 2009)

Paige Turner said:


> The Bicentennial Man (by Isaac Asimov, of course) is a beautiful, compelling story about the innocence, the yearning, the potential, and the ultimate tragedy of the human condition. That Asimov writes such a complete story with such Hemingwayesque succinctness is a true triumph of literature. I still can't read that story without crying.



Agreed. I would extend the same sentiment to the Ugly Little Boy,the collaboration with Silverberg. You can't help feel for kid!


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## ktabic (May 19, 2009)

Omphalos said:


> What part is that?  After the fall of the Patagonians?  You miss a lot by cutting that out.  Personally I though that some of the most interesting stuff was up to the fall of the Patagonians.  It picked up again after the cloud being part - I thought the middle dragged.



It's after the fall of the current world. Chapter 6 is the start of the Patagonians, iirc.


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## Hilarious Joke (May 20, 2009)

> My candidate is only a short story, The Last Question by Isaac Asimov. But it's truly epic in scope, plotting the course of humanity to the very end of the universe, and possibly beyond.


 
I was intrigued by this, and so read the story online.

Amazing.


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## Rodders (May 20, 2009)

Read the story online? Would you be able to post the URL as i too am quite intrigued.


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## Rodders (May 20, 2009)

Saw this on another thread. Could the Hitchhiker Guide to the Galaxy be considered Epic? On the face of it, this certainly fills a lot of the criteria.


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## Hilarious Joke (May 20, 2009)

Here it is Rodders:

The Last Question -- Isaac Asimov

Not too long, but quite brilliant.


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## weirdside (Jun 17, 2009)

A.I. is a fairly epic movie.  It takes place over wildly exotic locals and timescales.  Plus, the acting, score, cinematography, and direction are just so beyond compare.  Jude Law as Giggalo Joe will be my favorite performance for many years.  Even better than Ledger as the Joker.  
Man I love that movie.


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## deaconllq (Jun 17, 2009)

I believe Childhood's End fills the criteria nicely. So many layers about ourselves and our relationship to "others". Additionally, the movement of humans toward an Overmind is a scary yet sometimes shockingly accurate portrayal of where we seem to be heading.


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## Pyar (Jun 17, 2009)

The Procrastinator said:


> Does this have to be TV? If not I'd say _Dune_. Ticks all the boxes. A true epic.



I agree this is the first book I thought of when I read epic SFF.


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## Rippers (Jul 3, 2009)

Firstly, I think SFF really lends itself to epics. The opportunity to span worlds, times, species etc. gives it a headstart, for sure. 

My first choice would be *BSG*. The survival of the human race is surely going to be an epic. The relationships that are built and laid bare is the triumph for me every time. The depth of character makes an epic.

The second is *B5*. Warring worlds and a plan for ultimate peace gives immediate epic status.

Finally, the *Rama* series of books, by Arthur C Clarke and Gentry Lee. I read them years ago and was totally absorbed. The epic factor for me was that over and over again I heard ideas that I really had to put effort into picturing, because they were so original to me. I still go all misty eyed and think of Rama. Those books really cemented my love of SFF.


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## blacknorth (Jul 4, 2009)

I suppose there is epic in terms of time-scale, or epic in terms of scope, or epic in terms of speculation. 

The book which made the most vivid impression on me that way was Spinrad's epic genocide novel _The Men In The Jungle_. And given it's Vietnam connotations, it has a predictive quality which is off the scale.


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## Connavar (Jul 4, 2009)

Book :  Foundation,Dune,Conan(the world,history of the character),Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy,Sword In the Storm(Rigante book D.Gemmell)

TV/Film:  Battlestar Galactica,Farscape,Star Wars.


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## speedingslug (Jul 22, 2009)

Peter Hamilton's Commonwealth/Void series are pretty epic, and Robert Jordan's books are so vast in landscape it's hard to remember the characters.

As for films didn't like 2001 overrated, I go for Star Wars as it goes further than just the films and for TV Dr Who.


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## J-WO (Jul 25, 2009)

Can you count Homer's Odyssey (monsters) and Iliad (Gods)? I know their the original template for all epics but I love 'em like sff.


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## J-Sun (Jul 26, 2009)

I'd be willing to count 'em - I love them, too, and, as you say, they're the very definition of epic.


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## AE35Unit (Jul 26, 2009)

I feel that Moon the new SF epic may fit right in here. From the pics and review in Deathray it looks like the new 2001


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## J-WO (Jul 28, 2009)

J-Sun said:


> I'd be willing to count 'em - I love them, too, and, as you say, they're the very definition of epic.




  You know, I won't read Dan Simmons' _Ilium_ on principle.  How can he hope to top it?  The Epic equivalent of an Elvis impersonator!

  (And I actually quite like _Hyperion_. A good epic but it 'aint Homer)


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