# Debut novel - Spin-off thread from "Political issues in fantasy"



## LloB1 (Aug 9, 2009)

HI all. This post is very interesting as i have just selfpublished my debut novel 'The fight for Naturah the reclamation' which deals with many of these issues. My novel explores the environment and the effect humans and technology are having on it. The novel begins on Earth in the year 2085 and my main characters end up in a world not that dissimilar to their own. One of my characters questions whether his race has played a part in him not gaining the US presidency. And my main protagonist is a former US president with environmental tendencies. They enter a parallel universe where a conflict is being waged between two unique civilisations the Tekhnans - a technologically advanced race intent on building and living to excess - and the Naturahans - a race with deep routed connections to the natural world who possess telepathic and telekinetic powers.

The story howerver, doesnt dwell on these issues and there is a storyline that takes the reader away from these important issues. I believe that all scifi deals with big world issues and there needs to be a balance between a good plot and good characterisation. You can check out my new novel at amazon just click on the link below.

The Fight for Naturah: The Reclamation: Amazon.co.uk: Lloyd Blake: Books


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## Yahzi (Aug 11, 2009)

LloB1 said:


> The Fight for Naturah: The Reclamation: Amazon.co.uk: Lloyd Blake: Books


You've made some interesting choices here. A protagonist who is an ex-president? A second protagonist who wanted to be president? A thinly veiled parallel between Evil Capitialist Excess and Holy Pure Native American Magic?

Are you sure you didn't write this while sitting on a soapbox? 

I couldn't find any previews. Do you have a website with a couple of chapters up?


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## LloB1 (Aug 12, 2009)

No i didnt write this whilst on a soap box. There is so much more to the novel than what i have divulged. The story looks at technology and our (human) interaction with it and whether if placed in the wrong hands technology can do more harm than good. The story begins on earth in 2085 where consumption is rife. My protaganist ends up in a world where the war between technology and nature is more immediate. You can read the first chapter at amazon.com and read an extract on amazon.co.uk. I would really like to hear opinions good or bad.


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## mygoditsraining (Aug 12, 2009)

So which Authorhouse package did you go for?

I'm going to be really, really, really blunt here, and, in the words of David Tennant, _I'm so sorry_.  I think you should have saved your money and hired a professional editing service to look over your MS.  There's just so much that hurts here; a _sonar_ gun that fires _laser_ beams, the difference between "buffer" and "buffet", the endless, needless tautologies.*

I can't even tell if it would be any better with some pretty heavy edits.  Right now it reads like a first draft where the ideas were more important than what was actually being written. 

Now, I'm not going to say that bad writing doesn't sell.  It can do, and regularly does.  But you'll need one hell of a marketing strategy to do it.

Best of luck.


*where you say the same thing over and over again.  Once you've established he's in the sky, or in his office, or wherever, you don't need to tell us again.  The reader will happily fill in the location without being bludgeoned over the head with it.


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## Yahzi (Aug 13, 2009)

LloB1 said:


> You can read the first chapter at amazon.com and read an extract on amazon.co.uk.


Oh, I didn't see that the first time around.


First, I agree with mygoditsraining. You need some serious editing. There are a number of plain and simple grammar mistakes. Missing articles, misplaced commas, absent apostrophes, and a consistent failure to capitalize properly.

For the record, dialog is punctuated thusly:

"I told you so," she said.

Comma, then no capitalization.


As for the writing, let me say no to this:

_"even if she was just a *young girl*. The drink had given him a new lease of energy, *releasing his inhibitions*. "_

No, sir, a thousand times no! No matter what you meant by that sequence of words, you simply cannot actually type that sequence of words. 

_"things got worse when we learned to talk to wild animals in the forests and open plains. It was then that we were labeled even more freakish and odd"_

Well, frankly, if you spend your time talking to animals... and they talk back... you are, in fact, quite odd. It is inconsiderate of your Queen to phrase it this way, as if the fault somehow lay with the Tekhna. It is the Naturah that are not sharing their blessings, who are departing from the norm; the least they could do is have a little pity for the ones not blessed.

Also, reading people's minds is generally considered as impolite as looking inside their clothes; but your Queen blames the Tekhna for being offended!

In fact, from the brief bit I read, I can tell you I loathe and abhor the Naturah completely. They are self-absorbed, intolerant of differences, insenstive to other's needs, self-righteous, and ultimately hypocritical - they too change the environment to suit their needs and desires. While the Tekhna may have a problem with sustainability, you've given no particular reason they can't have magnificent structures, objects of splendor, and a functioning biome. It's certainly possible, with a little concern, political will, and science.

Unless your Tekhna are irrational, suicidal maniacs, the Naturah should be trying to help them live sustainability, not fighting a war. And if they are irrational and suicidal, then your book lacks an interesting villian.

It's great that you finished a novel. But you're not a writer until you've written 1,000,000 words. So get back out there and keep going!


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## LloB1 (Aug 13, 2009)

Thank you for all your comments. I particularly enjoyed Yahzi's disection. I really could sense your rage it showed you were really thinking about the characters i had created. I'm glad you feel the Naturahans are not to your liking as thats what i want the story to create. I want you to hate the Naturahans for thinking this way and along the way I hope there will be readers who may sympathise with their plight. I as the author am not siding with the Naturahans i sense you seem to think so.  

I have created a scenario that conjures up strong views and in my opinion thats all good. I want you to be offended and i want it to be controversial as well. The reason for this standoff becomes much clearer throughout the book.

I sense you seem to be outraged that i even thought of putting pen to paper and decided to publish. I took a risk which most of you on here seem frightened to do - I'm not frightened or afraid. I'm a storyteller and love creating characters who make people think.  

I'm getting guys like yourself to comment on my work. I'm getting interest from publishers and bookstores around the world. I'm getting interest from agents. I'm creating business for others. I'm getting interest from movie studio's in the US already. And it feels so good. I hope you all will share that feeling too. Bless


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## Ian Whates (Aug 13, 2009)

LloB1 said:


> I sense you seem to be outraged that i even thought of putting pen to paper and decided to publish. I took a risk which most of you on here seem frightened to do - I'm not frightened or afraid. I'm a storyteller and love creating characters who make people think.


 
I admire your enthusiasm, LloB1, but please be careful with the generalisations. 

There are many on here who love reading fantasy & SF but have no inclination to write. Equally, there are many published authors on the Chrons, both self-published and those whose work is handled by major international publishing houses. Comments such as this aren't exactly going to endear you to folk.


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## LloB1 (Aug 13, 2009)

Coming from a fellow author and editor I respect your opinion Ian whates. Sometimes it just seems there are two attack dogs on this site who perpetually find the negative in everything. But i will refrain from fuelling the negativity in future. thanks for your advice.


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## The Judge (Aug 13, 2009)

LloB1 said:


> You can read the first chapter at amazon.com and read an extract on amazon.co.uk. *I would really like to hear opinions good or bad.*



Do you mean this?  Or do you just want praise?  Your comments in later posts indicate that you take offence at honest criticism kindly meant.

For what it's worth, I admire your energy, passion and commitment in getting your book published.

J


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## LloB1 (Aug 13, 2009)

Thank you The judge. No I'm not looking for praise. I knew once my book came to the fore it would create a little heat because of its subject matter. I like all the comments they fascinate me.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Aug 13, 2009)

> I took a risk which most of you on here seem frightened to do - I'm not frightened or afraid.



You have asked for opinions and are receiving them.  If you don't like them, please don't make rude assumptions about the people who give them.

That sort of thing could result in this thread being closed.

And now, switching from moderator to private individual:

I think that people who invest years of their time working to improve their writing skills, polishing and polishing a first novel, and then sending it out to agent after agent and publisher after publisher, all the time knowing that very few manuscripts are ever accepted, show great courage.


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## LloB1 (Aug 13, 2009)

I agree wholeheartedly.


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## The Judge (Aug 13, 2009)

If you genuinely want feedback, then I can only echo mygoditsraining and Yahzi that you need to have your work edited by a professional.  I can make no comment regarding your plot or the subject matter, not having read enough of the excerpt you posted, though I have no doubt you have invested a great deal of time and effort in it.  Regrettably you have not given the same attention to your story telling technique - dialogue and characterisation are both weak to say the least.  A competent editor could have assisted you in this - and if nothing else, could have saved you from the grammatical errors which abound.  I expect basic literacy as a prerequisite in a book:  your failure to master it made it difficult for me to read, and I'm afraid that when I reached 'on tender hooks' ** I had to give up.

I sincerely hope that you do well with your book.  But I would urge you to use an editor next time.

J

** the phrase is 'on tenterhooks' - a tenterhook being a hook used to fasten cloth on a frame for the purpose of eg drying it.


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## Yahzi (Aug 14, 2009)

LloB1 said:


> I really could sense your rage it showed you were really thinking about the characters i had created.


I once read a short story, hating the main character more and more with every word, retching over his self-justifications, only to find the twist at the end where the author reveals that he _knows _his main character is a monster. It was brilliant.

It was also a short story. I'm not sure you can carry that kind of technique all the way through a novel.



> I as the author am not siding with the Naturahans i sense you seem to think so.


Well, this is an excerpt, so we have a limited sample to draw from.

Nonetheless, I find nothing reserved about your presentation of the Naturahans. You need to fold a little subtlety in this opening part and give your audience a hint. Usually this is done through the POV character's reactions - if he was a tad skeptical, then the reader would be too. But he's not.



> I sense you seem to be outraged that i even thought of putting pen to paper and decided to publish.




Well, the editor in me is outraged at your abuse of punctuation, but really, that's trivial. Think of it as a petty rage, like a tempest in a tea-pot.



> I took a risk which most of you on here seem frightened to do


I'm actually published as a e-book author and I have a self-published book I'm currently flogging. Here, check it out: http://www.WorldOfPrime.com

_(Man, that was sly how you slipped that in there. Shameless self-promotion!
Shh! Idiot! They can hear you!
What? Oh *(&(&*!)_

I've even got a piece in the War of the Words contest. The deadline is August 20th, so hurry on over there!



> I'm getting interest from publishers and bookstores around the world. I'm getting interest from agents. I'm creating business for others. I'm getting interest from movie studio's in the US already.


I would say I find this hard to believe, but... this.

So, good on you, mate! 



> Sometimes it just seems there are two attack dogs on this site who perpetually find the negative in everything


What? I just got here, and I'm already in the elite club?

 Gosh. You shouldn't have. 



> little heat because of its subject matter


Sadly, I couldn't get past disliking your characters long enough to uncover the subject matter. I can't stress this enough: you really need someone likeable to carry a story. Aside from the Thomas Covenant Chronicles, that is.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Aug 14, 2009)

Yahzi said:


> I would say I find this hard to believe, but... this.



It's easy to sneer at _Twilight_, but the fact is that these books are a very good example of how to become wildly successful:  Stephanie Meyer has written characters that vast numbers of readers have fallen in love with.  If you can do that, much will be forgiven.

In fact, it doesn't even have to be the characters.  Just so long as there is some aspect of a book that readers fall madly in love with, that book will be a success, whether it's written well or not (or course if it's also good, so much the better).  If a book doesn't have some special something that readers fall in love with, then the writer had better have some _very_ good writing to fall back on.


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## Yahzi (Aug 14, 2009)

Teresa Edgerton said:


> Stephanie Meyer has written characters that vast numbers of readers have fallen in love with.


Exactly!



> then the writer had better have some _very_ good writing to fall back on.


I respectfully disagree. _No _amount of good writing will make you popular. The average literary novel sells less than 10,000 copies. 

Ask a professional writer if they would choose a) a Pulitzer Prize, or b) to be on the shelf at WalMart. Guess what they always choose.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Aug 14, 2009)

Yahzi said:


> The average literary novel sells less than 10,000 copies.



There are plenty of writers who would be enchanted to sell 10,000 copies.



> Ask a professional writer if they would choose a) a Pulitzer Prize, or b) to be on the shelf at WalMart. Guess what they always choose.



I don't have to ask.  My answer is that I don't care all that much about either.  I don't write for the literary establishment, and while my hopes and expectations are that my books will sell much more than 10,000 copies, those expectations could be met without any book of mine ever seeing the inside of a WalMart.



> No amount of good writing will make you popular.


  Good writing does not necessarily mean the kind of writing that appeals to the literary establishment.  Good writing is compelling writing, and that _does_ make books popular.


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## dustinzgirl (Aug 14, 2009)

I'd rather have the Pulitzer.

Just to throw in people's faces.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Aug 14, 2009)

Well, it wouldn't be worth it to me, since I'd have to first write the _kind_ of book that wins a Pulitizer.  I like writing what I do write just fine.


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## HareBrain (Aug 14, 2009)

I'd rather have a pullet surprise (the surprise being that it's not a real pullet at all, but an animatronics version made of tofu).


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## Susan Boulton (Aug 14, 2009)

Yahzi said:


> Exactly!
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree. _No _amount of good writing will make you popular. The average literary novel sells less than 10,000 copies.
> ...


 
Do you know the discount a publisher has to give places like Walmart, Tesco, ASDA etc, it is horrendous, and the writer's % will drop accordingly. Besides, places like Walmart are only interested in books that have been, or are in the best seller lists (say in hardback, and Walmart will stock the paperback) A celeb's "book", or the new book by a bestseller i.e. Dan Brown. They are after moving numbers, not providing choice.

Ok, the original sales of a Pulitzer Prize winner, or any book that makes the short list might not be large in the beginning. (Though a large number of writers I know will not turn their noses up at sales topping 10,000. In fact a bit of research into sale figures might not go amiss here). But once the short list is announced, then the prize is given, the publishers go into high gear on the selling front. Sales worldwide can, and do, go through the roof.

On a side note; which professional writer told you that? Most I know are delighted to get onto the short list of awards for their genre, it does help sales, and build up their public profile


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## LloB1 (Aug 14, 2009)

Hi. I'd rather sell 10,000 then get a prize. To know your work has affected many, than a few suits mulling over every syntax would feel more rewarding - however an award would feel good too. As for yahzi i'd like you to read my novel in its entirety and then make up your mind - i promise you'd find something in the story worth contemplating. I sense you mean well.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Aug 15, 2009)

I don't think Pulitizer prizes are awarded for syntax.  No more than they are awarded for proper spelling, punctuation, etc.  These things are pretty basic.    Without them, the reading process becomes so labored, it's difficult for anyone to read far enough to _be_ affected.

And anyone who is passionate about their writing, should care enough to make it the best that they can possibly make it before sending it out into the world.  Among other things, this means not letting basic errors dilute it of any power it might otherwise have.

For many readers, careless writing (bad syntax, misused words, improper punctuation) is a signal that sloppy plotting and sloppy characterization lie ahead.  If the writer is so careless with the little things, how much time and effort is he or she likely to put into all the more difficult questions of motivation, narrative structure, etc?  It's like a huge stop sign not to read any further.  It's like a billboard that says, "I am more committed to the _idea_ of being a writer than I am to the actual writing."

No amount of self-promotion or bragging about a book can overcome that kind of impression.


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## Yahzi (Aug 15, 2009)

SJAB said:


> On a side note; which professional writer told you that?


I was being a little facetious.

But not completely.


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## LloB1 (Nov 7, 2009)

Why take a look at the official website for the debut novel 'The fight for Naturah' by myself Lloyd Blake hasnt been up too long. Thanks
www.lloydblake.viviti.com


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