# Magic



## dwndrgn (Oct 10, 2004)

A common theme in fantasy is magic.  However, there are many forms of magic out there in fantasy.  What kind of magic do you find especially poetic, powerful, realistic or just fun?  And why?

I personally like the use of magic through music and song.  You can see this in many books, two that come to mind are the Spellsinger series by Alan Dean Foster and the Spellsong Cycle by L.E. Modesitt Jr.  In the Spellsinger series, the main character uses music and songs that he is already familiar with (as the reader is also since the character is taken out of modern day and uses familiar songs), and shapes the magic through the use of different lyrics.  The problem here is that the basic theme of the original song can have an effect on the magic he is trying to create.  Also, a single person can't know every song out there and so is limited by his/her knowledge.  In addition, he must have music - so without a way to create music, he is effectively without magic.

In the Spellsong Cycle, the main character is again taken from modern day and again draws from her own musical experiences.

I think I like the thought of magical music because music in itself really is magical.  It can change people's minds, educate them, transport them and definitely evoke many emotions.


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## Princess Ivy (Oct 11, 2004)

My personal fave is the Will and the Word, as envisioned by Eddings. I love the poetry of it, and the uniquely commic moments caused also. There is also something that touches my imagination about the theme that anyone can do it, if they really apply themselves. The fact that the magic is only limited by the breadth of the mind is also intoxicating. I supose that what I'm getting at is that its a practicle type of magic, that anyone might perform, if they are able to get in touch with that little bit more of themselves.

I'm not that keen on songs and spells and potions, but this is more for practicle reasons, ie, it always takes so damn long!

Another form that I love is the Naming form, used in the Earsea quartet. The idea again that anyone can use it, if they are able to overcome the restrictions of their own minds. Also the way that so many of the words are in use, in whatever corrupted form, links to my own love of the english language and its international roots.


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## mzarynn (Oct 11, 2004)

I think my Grandma would be great at the musical magic you're talking about dwndrgn.  She always has a song for every occasion.  She was also an elementary music teacher, so maybe someday I'll have that kind of magic too.  

I enjoy magic that is derived from potions, especially healing potions.  Whether the magician is using herbs or shrunken heads, I always thought it was interesting.  It could be for the same reason Princess Ivy likes her magic and that anyone can learn to use potions if they're willing.  As opposed to Harry Potter, where people are born to be witches and wizards.


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## Kraken (Oct 11, 2004)

mzarynn said:
			
		

> I enjoy magic that is derived from potions, especially healing potions. Whether the magician is using herbs or shrunken heads, I always thought it was interesting. It could be for the same reason Princess Ivy likes her magic and that anyone can learn to use potions if they're willing. As opposed to Harry Potter, where people are born to be witches and wizards.



yep, that's my main objection to Harry Potter too.

I like the idea of using music to create magic, but most of the stories I've read that use it haven't grabbed me.  Personally, I find the ones that use visual arts are more convincing, such as _The Barbed Coil_ and _The Golden Key_.  Or _Memory and Dream_.

Although there's something to be said for one-off personal rituals, I think.  There's a short story by Charles de Lint, _Birds_, in which a character makes up her own spell to call birds.  Some parts she borrowed from folklore, but the hardest part she made up herself.  The point was to use the ritual as a focus for her belief: an exercise in focus that was tuned to her specifically.  Anyone who is willing to put the effort into it can achieve magic.
That's where Eddings doesn't really work for me, it's too generic.  Surely magic is a craft of some kind, a _creative _ tool, and in that case, it would have different quirks depending on the user.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Oct 12, 2004)

Ah, magic.

I don't like to have a carefully explained magic system in a book. That's for games. I like magic to be mysterious, illogical, powerful and even scary. Music is magic, and so is poetry. I like it when magic is associated with strange rituals as well. I've tried to write this sort of magic at times (there's a piece by me called 'Thieves, Moonlight' in the Critiques forum where I attempt to describe a magical ritual in a very opaque manner). I love the way Steven Erikson portrays magic.


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## Silk (Oct 12, 2004)

Princess Ivy said:
			
		

> My personal fave is the Will and the Word, as envisioned by Eddings. I love the poetry of it, and the uniquely commic moments caused also. There is also something that touches my imagination about the theme that anyone can do it, if they really apply themselves. The fact that the magic is only limited by the breadth of the mind is also intoxicating. I supose that what I'm getting at is that its a practicle type of magic, that anyone might perform, if they are able to get in touch with that little bit more of themselves.


This is my favourite too the fact that in essence everyone has the ability to perform magic as long as they can believe enough in both it and themselves is really appealing to me; it makes me think that I could do it too kinda thing.

But I also really like the Elemental magic used by Juliet E. McKenna which works on the basis that you are born with an affinity to one or sometimes more of the elements earth, air, fire and water and that your magical ability is based on the level of your affinity and how far you are prepared to study it and experiment with it.  It’s also interesting to see how the different elements contend with each other; the obvious example being fire and water as one will quench the other.  

This is defiantly more a scholarly kind of magic and it does have its downsides as it’s not as all encompassing as the Will and the Word but belongs more in the Harry Potter school of magic.


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## White_Tiger (Oct 23, 2004)

Magic. I don't know much about them in contemporary fantasy works, because I never read them. I do like fantasy, it's just I find most stuff on the shelves trash. Anyway, my favourite forms of magic come from Japanese anime mostly. I love the idea of control over the elements. Having the elements of Earth heeding your command, bending at your will is just such a powerful idea! (Think Storm and Magneto from X-men, that sort of power. In one word: COOL!) Also, the idea of communicating with spirits of men, beasts, and immortal god-like beings is also very fun. One last specific example, the magic in my favourite series consist of summong extraordinary creatures with different abilities from a mystical, secondary world to do your bidding. And the fact this world is known as the Shadow Realm and is supposed to be of dark magic. Absolutely my favourite idea ever.

Brownie points to those who know the reference! Haha.


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## Rane Longfox (Oct 23, 2004)

Personal favorite is Erikson's (suprised you there, I'll bet ) warren system. Love the multiple uses, and all the different aspects, how they connect, branch off from each other etc. I've never read another magic system so good

I do like Eddings' will and word stuff, but Erikson leaves it in the shade I get the impression that Martin could think up a very very clever magic system, if he used it more than glancingly in his Song of Ice and Fire series. When it has been involved, I've been impressed.


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## erickad71 (Oct 24, 2004)

I really liked the way magic is used in The Wheel of Time series. Although I could almost think of it being a sort of pyschic power and not magic.


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## dwndrgn (Oct 24, 2004)

White_Tiger said:
			
		

> Magic. I don't know much about them in contemporary fantasy works, because I never read them. I do like fantasy, it's just I find most stuff on the shelves trash. Anyway, my favourite forms of magic come from Japanese anime mostly. I love the idea of control over the elements. Having the elements of Earth heeding your command, bending at your will is just such a powerful idea! (Think Storm and Magneto from X-men, that sort of power. In one word: COOL!) Also, the idea of communicating with spirits of men, beasts, and immortal god-like beings is also very fun. One last specific example, the magic in my favourite series consist of summong extraordinary creatures with different abilities from a mystical, secondary world to do your bidding. And the fact this world is known as the Shadow Realm and is supposed to be of dark magic. Absolutely my favourite idea ever.
> 
> Brownie points to those who know the reference! Haha.


Forgotten Realms?


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## Esioul (Oct 24, 2004)

I don't read a lot of fantasy- mostly other genres and science fiction, so not sure if I can comment here. All-powerful or overly described magic annoys me, though. Also when a character seems less human due to it- I'm not interested really in reading about all-powerful zombies, I want to read about humans and how humans react.


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## fallenstar (Oct 25, 2004)

dwndrgn said:
			
		

> Forgotten Realms?


Trust me, White_Tiger doen't read Forgotten Realms....
And I shall be surprised that anybody can guess that reference, though because of our friendship I know it well. I will give a hint though, mind what kind of things she likes in fantasy....


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## eccles_1960 (Oct 25, 2004)

My favourite magic is by the Wyrd Sisters, Granny Weatherwax, Magrat Garlick and Nanny Ogg.

"Headology", the art of getting people to something themselves and making them think it's magic.


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## dwndrgn (Oct 25, 2004)

eccles_1960 said:
			
		

> My favourite magic is by the Wyrd Sisters, Granny Weatherwax, Magrat Garlick and Nanny Ogg.
> 
> "Headology", the art of getting people to something themselves and making them think it's magic.


That _is_ a good one.  I wish I had a degree in Headology.  I could certainly use it!


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## Lucifer (Oct 27, 2004)

My biggest gripe is a magic system that makes no sense, or one that just barely allows for an enormous Deus ex Machina.  There's definately something to be said for a magic system that isn't explained down to the core (leaving it rather mysterious), but it's just dreadful when the author pulls something out of nowhere that leaves the reader going "huh?"  For example, at the end of "Return of the King," the giant golden eagles came out of nowhere.  Yes, they rescued our hero, and yes, I would have cried if Frodo and Sam perished, but I still had a moment of righteous idignation.  I realized later that this was most likely Gandalf's doing, as he called the giant eagle earlier in the trilogy.  However, it seems to me that the giant eagle took it's sweet eagle time before responding, and a moth was required to bring the message in the first place.  Perhaps Gandalf the White was more eagle-affiliated than Gandalf the Grey, but it still chafed.  Perhaps it's more fully explained in the books.

Thus far, I really enjoyed the magic system used in Carol Berg's "Transformation."  Magic that takes place within the mind and is used to cast out demons seems very original.  This series addresses "inner space as landscape" and abilities are limited only by imagination.  Will power is a driving force.

I also admire Martin's use of magic: he lets it creep subtly into "The Song of Ice and Fire" so that it seems just as real as everything else in his world.  

Richard Rahl, courtesy of Terry Goodkind and his cringe-worthy "Sword of Truth" series, is exactly the kind of magic user I despise.  He can do everything with such a minimal amout of effort it's completely unrealistic.  And what is his sacrifice?  He can't eat cheese. 

That's another concept I like, that magic doesn't come for free.  All those folks with control over (for example) earth never seem to suffer any consequences for their actions - not even a pending lawsuit from Greenpeace.  I find it more realistic if there's a cap on magic use, whether one's personal reserves are drained or some outside source is drained.  That follows basic Newtonian laws, "for every action, there's a re-action."  If there's no price to pay for magic use, what's to stop an evil, all-powerful being from taking over and becoming undefeatable?

More than 2 cents worth,
Lucifer


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## Kraken (Oct 28, 2004)

Lucifer said:
			
		

> That's another concept I like, that magic doesn't come for free. All those folks with control over (for example) earth never seem to suffer any consequences for their actions - not even a pending lawsuit from Greenpeace. I find it more realistic if there's a cap on magic use, whether one's personal reserves are drained or some outside source is drained. That follows basic Newtonian laws, "for every action, there's a re-action." If there's no price to pay for magic use, what's to stop an evil, all-powerful being from taking over and becoming undefeatable?



Hear, hear!

Recently I've been considering that issue, so I'm right behind you there.  Whether the magic being used is an intrinsic power or the user is a conduit for an outside source, there must be a limit to how much can be used: for the sake of the user if nothing else.  It's like any other activity - eventually you get tired!


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## BlueSkelton (Oct 29, 2004)

Tolkiens Magic will always be My Favorite cause You had no clue how it worked. I mean you know all those High Elves could throw Down. But how they would have used their magic is unknown. But you would have to be hell a powerful to take on a Dragon or a Balrog all by your lonesome


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## Princess Ivy (Oct 29, 2004)

eccles_1960 said:
			
		

> My favourite magic is by the Wyrd Sisters, Granny Weatherwax, Magrat Garlick and Nanny Ogg.
> 
> "Headology", the art of getting people to something themselves and making them think it's magic.


Oh yes, this is a tremendous art, my grandmother has practiced it for years! and another one that most mothers can use.



			
				Luicifer said:
			
		

> _That's another concept I like, that magic doesn't come for free. All those folks with control over (for example) earth never seem to suffer any consequences for their actions - not even a pending lawsuit from Greenpeace. I find it more realistic if there's a cap on magic use, whether one's personal reserves are drained or some outside source is drained. That follows basic Newtonian laws, "for every action, there's a re-action." If there's no price to pay for magic use, what's to stop an evil, all-powerful being from taking over and becoming undefeatable?_




_to an extent I agree, and the forms of magic that i appreciate do have consequences to the users. However, I don't like heiretical systems, wherein some people are more or less powerful, simply by dint of birth etc..., with nothing to do with work or practice. ie if you are born not able to go past a certain level, you never will._


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## Lucifer (Nov 1, 2004)

Princess Ivy said:
			
		

> [/i]
> 
> _to an extent I agree, and the forms of magic that i appreciate do have consequences to the users. However, I don't like heiretical systems, wherein some people are more or less powerful, simply by dint of birth etc..., with nothing to do with work or practice. ie if you are born not able to go past a certain level, you never will._


Oh no, I completely agree with you.  I'd like to see a world with multiple magical systems, some of which depend upon birthright and some of which depend upon study, hard work, and dilligence.  

There's nothing I hate more than Super Cool Hero suddenly coming into his magical own just in time to zap the Bad Guy.

Lucifer


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## MystressX (Nov 3, 2004)

I agree Lucifer.  I do believe magic has an essence, and like taking water from a well, if you take too much of it, too quickly, you can end up draining all of its water.

 Different spells require different levels of power, thus draining more or less the essence of magic.  The whielder works like a battery, using whatever charge lies within.  Then he or she has to wait before making another spell, letting magic fill her again.

 The more powerful is a wizard, the greater is his charge, but either way, they are limited.  And so should it be to still make sence.  No matter what world, there should be rules limiting the story, otherwise the universe would lack balance, making it absurd.  

 Balance and duality are the things that make any world real and credible.


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## aftermath (Nov 8, 2004)

The way I like to write magic is a few ways: 

1) Using one's life force. Use too much, you die. It takes many years to be able to use this form of magic. 
2)Using others life force:This is very simlar to the first but the user must be able to drained an object of its force, but they can only handle so much magic, or they will explode 
3) Magic is an entity that people can be trained to use. But this magic drives the user crazy if they aren't careful. 

there are still more, but i'm lazy. There are many different forms of magic and each has it's plus' and negatives to them. But if the magic has a consequence of using it so much, or magic is not really that strong, i find it sounds better


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## leaflyn (Nov 8, 2004)

Yay! My favorite books are the ones that have magic! I really enjoyed the Shannara series and the magic that was used.


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## The Master™ (Nov 9, 2004)

I like the magic used in:

Raymond E Feist's collected works,
Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series, and
Mark Anthony's Last Rune series...


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Nov 10, 2004)

My own take on magic is that it is an arcane discipline that reduces the practitioner's interest in engaging with mundane causes as their level of expertise increases. Magic is just what we call the process of a human being approaching something like godhood. In my conception of magic, the only mages who still consciously and approachably intervene in human affairs are the lowly acolytes. A mage-adept does effect our lives too, but in the same way that forces of nature do. 

I certainly don't realistically see magic as a skill that you can learn, like archery or cooking, and still be essentially the same person. It's a manifestation of quest beyond mere humanity. 

These are just some thoughts towards how magic exists in a story I'm writing.


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## Maryjane (Nov 10, 2004)

_That could be true in real life Knivesout. Everyone has the seed and potential for such things as ESP, telepathic, cognitive and Empath abileties etc. These are old and ancient abileties that date even prior to the Egiptions maybe even since primitive man. If some one is ablle to develop it enough to manitpulate objects in the air and be able to read anothers minds or feelings or project their mind into an animals mind like the North Amarican Natives did this would have been considered great magic by others. Some develop the seed because they have faith in their inner selves abilties to be in harmony with the forces that be and others it remains dorment simply because they deny such things they think such things are proposterous childrens fairy tales so the seed in them is never nurtured._

_Maybe something here ya can use in your book  _


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## kyektulu (Aug 8, 2005)

I agree with you dwndrgn, I like the spellsinger magic too!


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## Pyan (Aug 8, 2005)

Lucifer said:
			
		

> However, it seems to me that the giant eagle took it's sweet eagle time before responding, and a moth was required to bring the message in the first place.
> 
> No moths in the books, Lucifer - purely an invention of the scriptwriter/director.
> 
> ...


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## Rosemary (Aug 8, 2005)

Elemental magic - definately the best form for me.  

"They" say we don't use all of our brain these days, so perhaps that's the part where the affinity and ability is hidden.   

I also like the various kinds of 'magic' found in WOT.  Particularly the Wise Women of the Aiel and the Aes Sedai.


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## Pyan (Aug 9, 2005)

I read the first 8 books of WOT and then gave up, for various reasons, including the sheer self-righteousness of the Aes Sedai, and Jordans obsession with skirt-lengths. But I did like the magic system - seemed practical, if that's the right word.

One of the criticisms of fantasy has always been the "if the hero is in trouble, Bang, he's got a magic sword " syndrome, but I can't remember when something like that has happened in a story I've read lately. On the whole, magic systems theses days seem to be worked out with limitations in place, and the author plays fair by not using _deus ex machina_.


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## Jaxom_Ruatha (Aug 10, 2005)

I like magic that comes from within and focuses on a specific element, such as the Circle of Mages by Tamora Pierce.


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