# More Britons died on Titanic For 'Politeness'



## Allegra (Jan 22, 2009)

I found this quite interesting. Would it be the same if it happens today while everyone seems to be an 'individualist'? 

BBC NEWS | Americas | 'Polite' Britons died on Titanic



> *More British passengers died on the Titanic because they queued politely for lifeboats, researchers believe.*
> A behavioural economist says data suggests Britons in that era were more inclined to be "gentlemanly" while Americans were more "individualist".


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## Wiglaf (Jan 22, 2009)

Wait, Americans are individualists, the Brits were gentlemanly, the women and children were put on the life boats?  Did the Americans just worry about their women and children?  Or perhaps did they allow all women and children to go first and then shoved the British men out of the way?  I think something is missing here.


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## Ursa major (Jan 22, 2009)

Like a lot of reports about research, Wig, there's quite a lot of comment and/or anecdote and precious few statistics (let alone "facts").


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## Allegra (Jan 22, 2009)

Historical facts aside, I do feel that Britons are politer still, especially comparing to the people further south. Not a 'sweeping generalization', just a general impression. For one thing, they are best behaved in a concert hall (though probably the worst in a football stadium). Then again, it's a matter of manner, not about being 'individualist' or not.


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## Ursa major (Jan 22, 2009)

From Thomas Carlyle's *The French Revolution*:



> If we look now at Paris, one thing is too evident: that the Baker's shops have got their Queues, or Tails; their long strings of purchasers, arranged in tail, so that the first come be the first served,--were the shop once open! This waiting in tail, not seen since the early days of July, again makes its appearance in August. In time, we shall see it perfected by practice to the rank almost of an art; and the art, or quasi-art, of standing in tail become one of the characteristics of the Parisian People, distinguishing them from all other Peoples whatsoever.


 
Those other peoples would include the British of that time.


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## Ghost Of Gernsback (Jan 22, 2009)

Ursa major said:


> Like a lot of reports about research, Wig, there's quite a lot of comment and/or anecdote and precious few statistics (let alone "facts").


 
I listened to the chap claiming these revelations, deeply ashamed to call him a fellow Australian. The premise is weak the conclussions unsupportable.

The biggest problem, aside from a lack of lifeboats. Of the boats available, many got underway almost empty, some had as few as 7 people in them, hence the legend of Molly Brown, who threatened the sailor if he didn't take the boat back in.

At some point, the captain did call "Every Man for himself" The British men would know this released them from any etiquite and they could follow any course they chose. The fights breaking out during the attempted deployment of the 4 collapsables, and the high number of crew members in them is testement to this


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## Nik (Jan 22, 2009)

Um, did they compare 'like for like', or just bundle the 'Steerage' folk with the count of Non-US ??

Sounds like a classic case of 'Lies, Da**ned Lies and Statistics'.


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## purple_kathryn (Jan 22, 2009)

I saw this mentioned on another forum and another poster had said there had been studies of Korean war camps where the Britons were more likely to survive because of their "politeness"



> ... but I am also reminded of studies of Korean War prisoners. In general, British prisoners lived longer, had better health, and better resisted coercion from the communists than American prisoners. Studies indicated that British politeness and adherence to protocol, even in the midst of starvation, beatings, and torment, gave prisoners hope through group support.
> 
> By contrast, American prisoners ceased to adhere to military discipline and observance of rank, as "every man for himself" at times took over. The resulting indiscipline resulted in high casualties (including a much higher death rate in the camps) and a lot of conversions to communism. Brain washing works best on isolated individuals.


 
How true any of it is I don't know


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## Vladd67 (Jan 22, 2009)

Studies indicated that British politeness and adherence to protocol, even in the midst of starvation, beatings, and torment, gave prisoners hope through group support.
Of course the British officers would have been through the public school system so it would have seemed like old times for them


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## Wiglaf (Jan 22, 2009)

Allegra said:


> Historical facts aside, I do feel that Britons are politer still, especially comparing to the people further south. Not a 'sweeping generalization', just a general impression. For one thing, they are best behaved in a concert hall (though probably the worst in a football stadium). Then again, it's a matter of manner, not about being 'individualist' or not.


 People further south?  The English?  Are Scots more polite?
Actually I thought the South(US) was supposed to be more polite.  Actually here I think it varies by class, region, and cultural groups. You have to be careful, in the US or you will be accused of racism if you generalize about people from any specific country.  However, I will risk being called racist against Brits and Americans and say that it could be more likely that Brits would use sir and ma'am and patiently wait in lines.  Still, I always thought that women and children first was pretty well ingrained in America.  
My problem is that he discusses Americans and Britons then uses the differences between men vs. women and children.  Certainly there were men, women, and children in both groups.
Personally I always thought the British were more inclined to fallow rules and relie on the authorities.  Americans would be less likely to stand in line, use proper forms of address, or fallow procedures but, would be more likely to help a stalled motorist or bring a fire victim a home cooked meal(no home=no stove after all).  But that could likely be wrong.


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## Drachir (Jan 23, 2009)

We are running into a lot of stereotypes here.  I see no difference in what happened on the Titanic and what happened on the plane that recently landed in the Hudson River. 
Canadians also have a reputation for being polite compared to Americans, but people forget that our national sport is ice hockey while that of the US is baseball.  In recent years there have been several riots generated in Canadian cities by celebrating hockey fans.  And why is it the the polite and orderly Brits are banned from many soccer finals in many parts of Europe?


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## Allegra (Jan 23, 2009)

Wiglaf said:


> People further south? The English? Are Scots more polite?


 
Nah, I meant southern Europe.


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## Wiglaf (Jan 23, 2009)

Drachir said:


> We are running into a lot of stereotypes here. I see no difference in what happened on the Titanic and what happened on the plane that recently landed in the Hudson River.
> Canadians also have a reputation for being polite compared to Americans, but people forget that our national sport is ice hockey while that of the US is baseball. In recent years there have been several riots generated in Canadian cities by celebrating hockey fans. And why is it the the polite and orderly Brits are banned from many soccer finals in many parts of Europe?


Different cultures do have different expectations in different circumstances compared to eachother. Now if other people's impressions of those expectations are correct is an entirely different matter. No one on this thread has been mean about it; just perhaps a little ethnocentric. Also it seems to me that everyone has implied that they realize their impressions could be incorrect.

As British immigrants arround here seem to be limited to a single family of five, it would be hard for me to come up with definite conclusions. By talking to the prettiest daughter I have learned that most Brits do not have muttonchops and live in manor houses or walk arround saying, "'Ello, Guv'nor," to those that do. Unfortunately, all discussion beyond that was more personal; for most other matters I still have to rely on the same movies that show muttonchops and manor houses.

The problem is that this report doesn't show any evidence beyond repeating what one can find in the same movies. In a scientific study, I would expect an example showing different behavior based upon different social expectations. The article however only reported that women and children were allowed to go first. I do believe that is an American rule as well. What did the Americans and Brits do that was different?


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## Ursa major (Jan 23, 2009)

You guess is as good as ours, Wig.



> Mr Savage said that proportionally more Americans survived than expected, which could be because British passengers followed social queuing etiquette which may not have been as strong in America.


 
This was from the relevant news item on the QUT (Queensland University of Technology) website (QUT | News).


I've searched the paper itself for the word, "British"; there is one use of this word, in the sentence: "_Moreover, to develop further age dummies we rely on an age notion that the British royal commission used in 1870-4 and which appeared in a subsequent Act in 1875 in regards to age benefits._" This doesn't seem to get us anywhere.

The word, American, appears once, pluralised: "_Interestingly, the results show that Americans have ceteris paribus the highest probability of surviving._"


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## Drachir (Jan 23, 2009)

From what I understand those who survived the sinking of the Titanic were mainly upper class, the second and third class passengers being left to last.  As a result, the matter of who survived might be more a matter of class than of national origin.  It is entirely possible that a larger proportion the American passengers were better off financially than many of the second and third class British passengers and that would account for their higher survival rate.


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## Pyan (Jan 24, 2009)

Have a look at the demographics of the survivors and deaths...and bear in mind that the ship was crossing east to west, so was only carrying 41 Americans in Third Class...

As the author says:  





> *The numbers make it all too clear that a rule of First Class First far outweighed any guiding principle of Women and Children First.*



Demographics of _Titanic_ Passengers


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## dustinzgirl (Jan 24, 2009)

I thought most died because it was freezing cold hypothermia inducing water and a big ship that sank into the ocean. I could be wrong on that point though.


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## Trebuchet (Jun 17, 2009)

And the pre-launch removal of lifeboats because they cluttered the deck. This may have contributed somewhat.


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## Dave (Jun 17, 2009)

While his theory may hold some truth, I don't think the researcher has his facts correct on the Titanic. I'd want to see a break-down of the survivors and victims and the percentages of US and British. 

What they say about the polite men putting their wives in the lifeboats and then retiring to watch the band play while they smoked a cigar is absolutely true. That is precisely what Colonel John Jacob Astor did, only he was actually an American!

Colonel John Jacob Astor knew he was going to die. He knew there weren't enough lifeboats and he showed his wife how useless the life jackets were before he said goodbye.

The difference today is that no one has any "shame" or "honour". If he had instead beat 10 men senseless to get a place in the last boat, no one in polite society would have ever spoken to him again. If someone did that today they'd probably get their own TV show, a deal on their autobiography, and their own fashion and aftershave brands.

This is an excellent website on the passengers: Titanic Passenger and Crew Biography and Titanic History | Encyclopedia Titanica I found it because my wife is very distantly related to a victim. His wife also survived.


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