# Non-western fantasy worlds



## Dimentio (Jun 27, 2009)

I think it is strange that there are so few non-western themed fantasy worlds. In most fantasy worlds, the protagonist is froma culture with western aesthetics. If fantasy is really about escapism, then why just create another version of medieval merry England?


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## Rodders (Jun 27, 2009)

Maybe it's that Frontier feel that people a going for. There nothing that suggests frontier in a medieval society.


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## Dimentio (Jun 27, 2009)

Rodders said:


> Maybe it's that Frontier feel that people a going for. There nothing that suggests frontier in a medieval society.



No, I have also noticed that a lot of socities in fantasy seem to be rather medieval versions of the wild west than actual attempts to describe how people thought and saw the world during the medieval time.

One thing which bothers me though is the "Dark Lord" trap, that even the people(s) ruled over by the Dark Lord are evil. That is of course a Tolkienesque interpretation, but Tolkien had several valid excuses, and I think too many authors have created copy-catted worlds from Tolkien without really creating anything new and original, rather wathering down Tolkien's mythos into commercialism.


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## j d worthington (Jun 27, 2009)

There are plenty of worlds which don't take quite that view, though one has to search some of them out. And I believe there are various fantasy worlds which are non-western European (at least ostensibly, though not always philosophically), as well; some of these date back to earlier fantasy works (Voltaire, even, for instance, with "Zadig the Babylonian"), but I've no doubt there are others with more recent fantasy as well. Unfortunately, that isn't an area where I am that knowledgeable, so I will have leave suggestions on that to others who _are_....


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## Ursa major (Jun 27, 2009)

*Vathek* by William Thomas Beckford (also known as _Vathek, an Arabian Tale_ or _The History of the Caliph Vathek_) would fit JD's bill, in that it is non-western fantasy and dates back a good few years: it was written in 1782 (in French, but was later translated into English).


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## Dimentio (Jun 27, 2009)

Ursa major said:


> *Vathek* by William Thomas Beckford (also known as _Vathek, an Arabian Tale_ or _The History of the Caliph Vathek_) would fit JD's bill, in that it is non-western fantasy and dates back a good few years: it was written in 1782 (in French, but was later translated into English).



In the 18th century, such litterature was popular. They used non-European protagonists, both in order to get a little more liberty with the characters and to use prejudices and dreams about exotic lands to entice the reader.


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## j d worthington (Jun 28, 2009)

Dimentio said:


> In the 18th century, such litterature was popular. They used non-European protagonists, both in order to get a little more liberty with the characters and to use prejudices and dreams about exotic lands to entice the reader.


 
It also had a great deal to do with Galland's translation into French of the Arabian Nights tales, which rather took Europe by storm.

But this sort of thing lasted well beyond the time of *Vathek* (important -- and enjoyable, not to mention scatalogical -- as it is), with such pieces as F. Marion Crawford's *Khaled*, or George Meredith's *The Shaving of Shagpat*. You also have the various _Kai Lung_ novels of Ernest Bramah, or Barry Hughart's _Chronicles of Master Li and Number Ten Ox_ -- the latter an excellent example of what you were asking for....


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## Pyan (Jun 28, 2009)

Try the Empire series by Raymond Feist and Janny Wurts, detailing a clash between a traditional proto-western fantasy world, and a Japanese-inspired Oriental one...


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## Dave (Jun 28, 2009)

Out of interest, are there any English written translations of Chinese tales that anyone would recommend? I used to watch the TV adaptations "The Water Margin" and "Monkey" when I was younger and they certainly fit what Dementio was asking for. I believe those TV productions were Japanese so I'm not sure how much they were altered from the original sources.


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## Urien (Jun 28, 2009)

It's logical that one's perception and indeed truth of localised experience is of more Western medieval styled worlds than say Indian or Chinese. If you're an English speaker and/or living in a Western nation it's natural one should read predominantly Western (or own language writers); these writers draw on the easily available historical experience, which is, the local experience.

What I don't know is the whether there is a fantasy market in India/Japan/China written by local authors for local people. If there is I'll bet it's predominantly local culture, history and society focused. 

Meanwhile I must pop off to the local shop for some precious things.


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## Dimentio (Jun 28, 2009)

Urien said:


> It's logical that one's perception and indeed truth of localised experience is of more Western medieval styled worlds than say Indian or Chinese. If you're an English speaker and/or living in a Western nation it's natural one should read predominantly Western (or own language writers); these writers draw on the easily available historical experience, which is, the local experience.
> 
> What I don't know is the whether there is a fantasy market in India/Japan/China written by local authors for local people. If there is I'll bet it's predominantly local culture, history and society focused.
> 
> Meanwhile I must pop off to the local shop for some precious things.



It seems like at least Japanese fantasy is drawing quite much from western civilisation. I think it all boils down to the fact that the novel is mostly a western cultural artifact. And in China and Eastern Asia, there is'nt the same interest in the history of other cultures in general.


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## j d worthington (Jun 28, 2009)

Dimentio said:


> It seems like at least Japanese fantasy is drawing quite much from western civilisation. I think it all boils down to the fact that the novel is mostly a western cultural artifact. And in China and Eastern Asia, there is'nt the same interest in the history of other cultures in general.


 
More specifically, if one is looking at the more restricted use of the term "fantasy" that most use (what many, including myself, have called the "post-Tolkien" fantasy), then this sort of tale is very much an outgrowth of older western forms as well, from the origins in the eddas and sagas to the _märchen_, the historical romance _à la_ Walter Scott, down through elements of the Gothic tale (which, as has been cogently argued many times, was a precursor to both modern fantasy and science fiction).

But parallel to that (if much less frequent) there has always been at least a small thread of other, non-western fantasy worlds included in that development all the same....


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## Connavar (Jun 28, 2009)

This so called problem is easily corrected, reading fantasy from other cultures.  Japanese,Chinese,other Asian fantasy works based on their cultures.

Liarn Hearn the Australian author have written good YA fantasy set in alternate history Japan.   Raymond Feist was mentioned.   

Liz Williams Snake Agent series which is Urban Fantasy/Science fiction/mystery is set in Singapore the first book.  Chinese culture based world that series..

Which is why i enjoy them.  The few quality western authors that care about making fantasy based on other cultures is very interested read.


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## WizardofOwls (Jun 28, 2009)

Personally, I dislike fantasy which is not western influenced. I find middle eastern and far eastern themed books diffiult to read and based on concepts which are alien to me. I dont understand, and frankly I dont want to understand them. That may sound a little close minded and I suppose it is, but everyone has their own likes and dislikes and these are mine.


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## Dimentio (Jun 28, 2009)

WizardofOwls said:


> Personally, I dislike fantasy which is not western influenced. I find middle eastern and far eastern themed books diffiult to read and based on concepts which are alien to me. I dont understand, and frankly I dont want to understand them. That may sound a little close minded and I suppose it is, but everyone has their own likes and dislikes and these are mine.



Things is that even the Western European medieval or dark age culture would have been alien to you. At least until the late 18th century, people imagined the world as cyclical and subjected to the seasons. 

When authors are installing anachronistic concepts like for example "girlfriend" into medieval fantasy worlds, its a clear signs that something is wrong. Also, a lot of authors seem to ignore class relations.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Jun 28, 2009)

Dimentio said:


> Also, a lot of authors seem to ignore class relations.



And even worse, they ignore the effects of class and upbringing on an individual's character and on the very thought patterns by which that individual defines himself and his relationships within his world.

Which makes it easier for readers to understand and identify with the characters, but certainly detracts from the experience of entering another world.


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## Dimentio (Jun 28, 2009)

Teresa Edgerton said:


> And even worse, they ignore the effects of class and upbringing on an individual's character and on the very thought patterns by which that individual defines himself and his relationships within his world.
> 
> Which makes it easier for readers to understand and identify with the characters, but certainly detracts from the experience of entering another world.



Just fifty years ago, it was usual in Sweden upon entering a shop to say. 

"Oh dear mr shopkeeper, could I please get a slice of bread?"

In most societies except the western society during the last fifty years, class has really been a major cultural divide between several groups, and totally shaped their worldviews, I am in agreement there. It is mostly American influence which has brought down the conventions of Pre-WW2 Europe.


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## Connavar (Jun 29, 2009)

WizardofOwls said:


> Personally, I dislike fantasy which is not western influenced. I find middle eastern and far eastern themed books diffiult to read and based on concepts which are alien to me. I dont understand, and frankly I dont want to understand them. That may sound a little close minded and I suppose it is, but everyone has their own likes and dislikes and these are mine.



There are other parts of the world whose culture also end up in fantasy.  Africa and other places than Middle east,other part of asia.

I think its a shame not reading something just because its different.  The danger is then the things you read end up being too similar.


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## j d worthington (Jun 29, 2009)

Hadn't mentioned it before as it isn't strictly fantasy, but more a historical novel with some fantastic elements, but Gustav Flaubert's *Salammbô* qualifies, to my mind, as much as many pieces of earlier fantasy literature. The setting for this is Carthage, and while the hints of (possible) supernaturalism are open to interpretation, there's enough of a suggestion of such forces to keep it from ever being seen as a realistic fiction. It also has a rather sweeping narrative tone, and enough barbaric pomp to delight any Robert E. Howard enthusiast. IIRC, this novel actually influenced REH to some degree. Certainly Philippe Druillet did a masterful sff presentation of it some years ago, something well worth looking into for those interested, and I'd say the novel is quite well suited to anyone who enjoys some of the "classic" writers such as Haggard, Mundy, Lamb, and the like....


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## Dave (Jun 29, 2009)

Connavar said:


> There are other parts of the world whose culture also end up in fantasy.  Africa and other places than Middle east, other parts of asia.


I remember my daughter having an African children's book about clay models that were left out to dry and the Sun God made them into different coloured people.


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## Professor 0110 (Jun 30, 2009)

> When authors are installing anachronistic concepts like for example "girlfriend" into medieval fantasy worlds, its a clear signs that something is wrong. Also, a lot of authors seem to ignore class relations.



Why? I mean it may be a medieval setting, but unless it uses a realistic medieval map with realistic cultures from that time, its a completely different story set in a different medieval like world. So, as long as the author in question is consistent within their boundaries, there isn't really any problem with using modern language. 

I think the majority of western-based fantasy is derived once again from Lord of the Rings and other Tolkien writings. Many people just can't get enough of it and that is where many authors target their own writing either because of their love of it, or because that's where the demand is or a pleasant combination of both.


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## Connavar (Jun 30, 2009)

Anyone who wanted to read a good fantasy set in Africa i would recommend *Imaro* by Charles.R Saunders.  A classic modern S&S story that is a hidden gem.

_Saunders' novel fuses the narrative style of fantasy fiction with a pre-colonial, alternate Africa. Inspired by and directly addresses the alienation of growing up an African American fan of Science Fiction and Fantasy, which to this day remains a very ethnically homogonous genre. It addresses this both structurally (via its unique setting) and thematically (via its alienated, tribeless hero-protagonist). The tribal tensions and histories presented in this fantasy novel reflect actual African tribal histories and tensions._


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## Urlik (Jun 30, 2009)

Eric Von Lustbader's *Sunset Warrior* trilogy has an Eastern setting (not so apparent in book 1 but still there)
much of the action takes place in post apocalyptic versions of Shanghai and Japan


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## Dimentio (Jun 30, 2009)

Professor 0110 said:


> Why? I mean it may be a medieval setting, but unless it uses a realistic medieval map with realistic cultures from that time, its a completely different story set in a different medieval like world. So, as long as the author in question is consistent within their boundaries, there isn't really any problem with using modern language.
> 
> I think the majority of western-based fantasy is derived once again from Lord of the Rings and other Tolkien writings. Many people just can't get enough of it and that is where many authors target their own writing either because of their love of it, or because that's where the demand is or a pleasant combination of both.



Because a medieval society has entirely different social conditions than a modern society. I have seen quite a lot of "nuclear family"-like constellations in modern fantasy. It is anachronistic and unlikely. Moreover, generally speaking the living standards are too high.


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## Dave (Jul 1, 2009)

Dimentio said:


> Because a medieval society has entirely different social conditions than a modern society. I have seen quite a lot of "nuclear family"-like constellations in modern fantasy. It is anachronistic and unlikely. Moreover, generally speaking the living standards are too high.


Yes, as I read it, Teresa wasn't saying the use of 'girlfriend' as a word of language was wrong, rather she was saying the whole concept was wrong.

You married who your parents told you to marry, or as soon as the girl fell pregnant. Usually, she would be a third or fourth cousin, living less than 30 miles away, but much more likely in the same village. If you decided to elope with anyone else then you wouldn't come back again as you would have forgone any inheritance. It was very hard to marry out of parish and impossible to get a divorce. A birth out of wedlock was a sin and the shame was extraordinary. You had to toe the line, there was little choice.


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## Althain's Warden (Jul 3, 2009)

I'd put forward Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy as an example, it contains to my mind much more of eastern influences than western culture. My history is not so great but the books make me think of Persian empire with some Greek elements thrown in there. I'm sure some others can clarify my meaning a little more accuratly !! Still i agree that there is non western fantasy out there, it is just harder to find if you live in the west !! 
I also would encourage any and all persons to try and broaden their reading horizons, the older i get the more my interest grows and rather than focus on what is different between 'things' i find myself focusing more on the unifying themes that link things together.
Wow hope that above para doesn't come over as completley pompous 
Just my opinion


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## j d worthington (Jul 3, 2009)

Althain's Warden said:


> I also would encourage any and all persons to try and broaden their reading horizons, the older i get the more my interest grows and rather than focus on what is different between 'things' i find myself focusing more on the unifying themes that link things together.
> Wow hope that above para doesn't come over as completley pompous


 
I know what you mean. I think this is part of embracing life rather than retreating from it, in a sense -- the broader one's horizons (or at least one's interests), the more commonality one discovers. And, speaking for myself, I'm reminded of a passage in *Flowers for Algernon*, where Charlie (iirc) remarks that, as his knowledge expands, the more he realizes that what he once thought were mountains were really the foothills, and that the mountains are even further off and more vast than he'd ever imagined; that he knew he'd never reach the tops of those mountains, but at least he realized the difference and could conceive of the staggering richness of the whole....


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## Althain's Warden (Jul 6, 2009)

Nice passage of writing JD, i'm impressed (once again!) and also glad someone knew what i was talking about  May have to check out Flowers for Algernon, just looked at it on Amazon and it looks very good! 
JD do you know of any modern philosphers that deal with these kinds of perspective issues/ approaches to life etc? I've largely not read any philosophy for several years after finishing my degree which largely dealt with the classics through to the sort of 19th century philosophers, the only modern reads i got were very specific issue focused- Abortion, Euthanasia, DNA issues that sort fo thing. 
Any suggestions?


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## j d worthington (Jul 6, 2009)

Thank you again for the compliment.

The two that come to mind right off are Bertrand Russell and Daniel Dennett. There are others, but I'm drawing a blank right now -- plus I'm only minutes away from having to leave for work. But I think you might enjoy (and find inspiring) a fair amount they have to say. (I will admit, though, that I've not read Dennett yet -- though I intend to -- but I have heard several of his lectures, speeches, and interviews, and he certainly tackles such issues....)


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## Althain's Warden (Jul 8, 2009)

Thanks JD i'll look into it, I have Bertrand Russell's history of western philosophy but have never really found the time to read it  Will research into Mr Dennett and see what i find.


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