# Science Fact - Mars Lander.....er....lands.



## Zakalwe (May 26, 2008)

Well it's down. Expectations are high. Personally I'm hoping that instead of detecting ancient spores in a sub soil sample, they stick the probe into the soil and find a complete alien city teeming with life, so perfect it even has blackjack and paintball. We can dream....

I posted a link to the story on the Guardian website, but apparantly I can;'t post links until I have 15 posts or more and currently, accordng to the powers that be, I have zero posts!  Which begs the questions; who are all of you, where am I and does anybody else taste purple?


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## TheEndIsNigh (May 27, 2008)

Hi Zak You must be new. Welcome

We're all sat waiting for this drill to come through the ceiling so we can get out and give that Lander some grief. 

Made a hell of a racket when it came down.

It'll only be fair to do some messin' around with the thing when we get the chance.


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## Pyan (May 27, 2008)

Zakalwe said:


> but apparantly I can;'t post links until I have 15 posts or more and currently, accordng to the powers that be, I have zero posts!



Ah...posts in the *General* area, (Lounge, Playrooms, Birthdays, etc) don't count toward your post-count, Zak...this is to deter PC junkies from posting lots of short, "witty" posts to jack up their counts. 
And the _15-posts-before-you-can-put-in-a-link_ software deters spambots selling shoes, phones, etc.


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## Zakalwe (May 27, 2008)

A very sensible precaution it is too.  Nobody likes clicking on a link to a newspaper story only to find that they have indeed been Rickrolled 

Still....Mars, eh?  That's big and red.

The implications of what that machine might discover are incredible.  It's sitting up there right now (probably a bit lonely) digging a wee hole in the soil and what it might find could change everything.  In reality, it'll probably find some quartz, maybe a bit of feldspar and then break, but you never know!


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## Grimward (May 27, 2008)

From what I've read and seen, just landing it with communications and other gear intact is a major accomplishment.  Here's a link to NASA's site to assist, Zakalwe...

Mars Exploration: Home


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## Zakalwe (May 27, 2008)

Huzzah!  Thanks for the link.

As you said it's a pretty fantastic achievement as it stands, anything from here on in is a bonus.  Hopefully a bonus with extraterrestrial origins


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## Grimward (May 27, 2008)

Yeah, I'm kinda hoping that they find something that turns a basic element of the universe on its ear.  Not the usual kind, you know....

(With due apologies to any geologist or others connected to the mission who may happen by this thread)

Scientist:  "We've never seen striations in mineral deposits like this on Earth."
TV Interviewer:  "That's fascinating.  What does it mean?"
TV Audience; "Yawn."

I'm talking about something like finding fossils the size of trucks, or that there really are waterways (under the surface, I guess), or (GASP 

 ) that there really is a John Carter, Warlord of Mars!


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## Quokka (May 27, 2008)

Hopefuly TheEndisNigh can sneak up behind it and drag it underground. Now THAT would get people talking.

As this one isn't mobile I imagine landing and then switching to solar power were the biggest worries for NASA. Congrats to the people involved it must be an amazing experience to have worked so long and then finally have a successful landing (and know there'll be at least some data coming back), especially if they were involved in the earlier cancelled mission.


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## Zakalwe (May 27, 2008)

Grimward said:


> Scientist: "We've never seen striations in mineral deposits like this on Earth."
> TV Interviewer: "That's fascinating. What does it mean?"
> TV Audience; "Yawn."


 
Heh heh 

NASA - 'Well we found something rather unexpected Skip, I think people will be excited.'

Skip Wankman - 'And what might that be Mr Scientist man? Another type of dust, a slightly deeper than usual crater?'

NASA - 'Actually Skip, we found a sentient tower made from human souls. It's currently screaming at us and spitting some sort of bile from what we take to be eyes.'

Skip - '.......I see.............On tonight's Big Brother Fred sits down for a while! More later.'


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## PTeppic (May 27, 2008)

Quokka said:


> As this one isn't mobile I imagine landing and then switching to solar power were the biggest worries for NASA.



One of the BBC news website stories about the landing (I think in the last day or two before it got there) it quoted a figure of 50% as being the Mars landing success rate. Ouch!


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## Dave (May 27, 2008)

Quokka said:


> Hopefuly TheEndisNigh can sneak up behind it and drag it underground. Now THAT would get people talking.


Why is the camera never on when that happens?


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## purple_kathryn (May 27, 2008)

Grimward said:


> Yeah, I'm kinda hoping that they find something that turns a basic element of the universe on its ear. Not the usual kind, you know....
> 
> (With due apologies to any geologist or others connected to the mission who may happen by this thread)
> 
> ...


 
well that's kind of the point isn't it.  What's massively ground breaking for the science world isn't vaguely interesting to the general public.  Or well it would be if we actually understood it.  

Also - does anyone else think it's great that our main space guy has such a broad Yorkshire (?) accent?  Is he related to the chap off time team?


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## Dave (May 27, 2008)

purple_kathryn said:


> well that's kind of the point isn't it.  What's massively ground breaking for the science world isn't vaguely interesting to the general public.  Or well it would be if we actually understood it.


I'm not absolutely sure on this, but I think the biggest discoveries they could make would be the presence of locked water. Many of the geological features suggest large quantities of liquid water was once present - if some of the weathering features were found on Earth they would be explained that way. If so, why did it all go and why? Could life then have existed once, but has now become extinct? Or are we really Martians ourselves?

There are implications for us on Earth. Venus is slightly closer to the Sun, but much warmer because of a runaway greenhouse effect. Mars is slightly further away, yet any atmosphere it had has been lost. Many people say we shouldn't worry about what Man does to our atmosphere. What exactly do we need to do Earth's atmosphere for it to become a Venus or a Mars?

Well, those are my questions.


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## Cayal (May 27, 2008)

I hope they find that soccer ball I kicked up there...man I have a great leg.

Good effort on NASAs part however I think they will be disappointed. They want to find something that I don't think will be there.

But that's just me.


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## TheEndIsNigh (May 27, 2008)

Cayal: I suspect they will find it even if it's not here. We will try to disapoint them. I mean we can't have someone dumping random pieces of space junk on our pristine surface. Have you lot any idea how much it costs to keep it neat and tidy.

We're having a meeting tonight to see what should be done. I disagree with the current feeling that we should send the meteors with the three legged ones over to teach you lot a lesson. However it's hard to hear the voice of reason after this affront so I can see it may well end in tears.

The situation isn't helped by the drilling. Have you ever sat in the dentist waiting room.


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## ktabic (May 27, 2008)

Isn't an invasion a bit of a steep fine for littering?


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## TheEndIsNigh (May 28, 2008)

Well yes that's what I said. But I have to tell you I'm in the minority here. I have to say though that those in favour of invasion do have a point. I mean you've got form on this kind of thing. it wasn't so bad before when you just dumped them on the equator. One big bang and then a few whining noises and it was all over. Oh there were complaints, but we can be tollerant. That toy thing that started moving about was pushing your luck a bit, however, I said to them 'Let them have their play, what harm can it do'

Then what do you do. start throwing your stupid bouncing balls at us. That last one nearly cause horrendous damage. If we hadn't popped it when we did there would have been hell to pay I can tell you.

This last one though, this's serious. Slap bang in the one region of the planet we can manage to survive and right on top of one of our main entrances.

Oh wait... their calling the vote... Will ry to do what I can... but if you don't here from me again --

Look to the skies.


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## Quokka (May 28, 2008)

So a few balls and frisbees have gone over the fence, we are neighbours after all .


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## Quokka (May 28, 2008)

Dave said:


> I'm not absolutely sure on this, but I think the biggest discoveries they could make would be the presence of locked water. Many of the geological features suggest large quantities of liquid water was once present - if some of the weathering features were found on Earth they would be explained that way. If so, why did it all go and why? Could life then have existed once, but has now become extinct? Or are we really Martians ourselves?


 
It will also be doing various analyses of the soil, so although you're probably right in that the presence of ice/moisture will likely be the biggest discovery. It'll also be looking for how hospitable the soil might be for life and I think it would even be possible (if they were to find known organic signatures) that the Pheonix could confirm that life did or does exist on Mars, although I'd assume that's a very long shot.


... No offence intended TheEndIsNigh .

Edit: I'm sure life on mars isn't the only reason for the soil analyses but you can be sure it's the only one that'll reach the mainstream press.


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## Vladd67 (May 28, 2008)

For Zak
Triumphant return to the Red Planet | Science | The Guardian
Colin Pillinger: Britain should be leading the search for life on Mars | Comment is free | The Guardian


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## Nik (May 28, 2008)

Did you see the Orbiter piccy of lander & chute *in mid-air* ?? Then the sections on ground ??

That was seriously good planning, and a scary resolution camera...

Now if only they could find Beagle_2's impact site...


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## Dave (May 28, 2008)

Nik said:


> Now if only they could find Beagle_2's impact site...


I think TEIN is still hanging on to the Beagle 2 - his kids use it as a toy car!


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## TheEndIsNigh (May 28, 2008)

Quokka said:


> So a few balls and frisbees have gone over the fence, we are neighbours after all .


 
Yes, but we're the neighbours from HELL



Dave said:


> I think TEIN is still hanging on to the Beagle 2 - his kids use it as a toy car!


 
Well yes we managed to fix the hole in the bouncy thing and now we have a kick about with it when we can.

NEWS UPDATE
Ok I managed to get the invasion put off for now but I had to call in some favours I can tell you. Mind you the truth is the three legged ones aren't ready. You see we hire them (they're mercenaries we don't soil our hands with such exploits) from a useful little planet over near what you call the Orion constellation. Unfortunately (well not for you as it happens) they've had to recall them. It seems they haven't had the latest anti viral filters fitted. If we had launched them they would have packed up after a few weeks. And what would be the point of that.

So for now until we can get some new stock we have time to calm things down.

Look! I probably shouldn't be telling you this but this water your looking for. Well the truth is there's tons of it. All over the planet just below the surface. It's along story. It goes like this. 

You see we aren't really Martians ( in the true sense). No we came here about 500 thousand years ago. You see when we arrived things were pretty tough for the real Martians. Most of them were dead from, you guessed it lack of water.

* You have to understand Mars unlike Earth has no hot central core; it's stone cold. On Earth you have a central core that can keep the oceans out by developing incredible pressures at the water/volcanic boundary, so you have water at the surface. However, with Mars that's not happening. Also as the core cooled it shrank which left more volume for the water to fill. You see the water on Mars is all inside the planet seeping down through the cracks and fissures to the big sea in the middle. * (theory ends)

Anyway we like it like this, nicely dry and arid on the surface. However, we couldn't just sit by and let the Martians die out, so when we arrived in exchange for the deeds to the planet we agreed to ship them out to the next planet along - yours, well theirs really. There wasn't many so we spread them out a bit on the surface and well, just let them get on with it really.

I was against it myself but as usual I was shouted down. So now look what's happend. Now you're down there lobbing your junk at us and that's the thanks we get. 

(*On a serious note - this is my theory as to what happend to Martian water)


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## Nik (May 29, 2008)

IIRC, latest notion is that every time Jupiter's tides tip Mars' polar axis (10k~~50kyr Milkanovich-type cycles), the deep permafrost is mobilised by changing climate zones. Wouldn't surprise me if tipping poles caused some geothermal activity, too, as water tables changes...


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## Dave (May 30, 2008)

Nik said:


> IIRC, latest notion is that every time Jupiter's tides tip Mars' polar axis (10k~~50kyr Milkanovich-type cycles), the deep permafrost is mobilised by changing climate zones. Wouldn't surprise me if tipping poles caused some geothermal activity, too, as water tables changes...


I didn't know that!

That period (10k ~~50k years) - that is quite similar to the period for Earth North pole~ South Pole reversals (for which we are overdue one.) Do you think they could be connected? Certainly, Jupiter is the strangest planet in our Solar System. It emits more radiation than it absorbs from the Sun, and causes all kinds of radio interference on Earth from time to time.


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## Nik (May 30, 2008)

Ah, you're thinking geomagnetic reversals, when the multipoles do a switcheroo. IIRC, Earth's rotational pole precesses much slower and through a smaller angle, is constrained by lunar tides. The Moon is our gyrostabiliser, um, training wheels...

Without a sizable moon, with a significantly elliptical orbit and Jupiter's gravity nudging, Mars' polar axis wobbles dramatically...

IIRC, all that RF stuff from Jupiter is combination of lightning from storms, and recombination of magnetic field-lines down-stream. Think Northern Lights plus geomagnetic storms, all super-sized. And, yes, weather systems bigger than the Earth, with Katrina-sized twisters...


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## Dave (May 30, 2008)

Thanks!


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## Cayal (Jun 2, 2008)

So they found ice?


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## Vladd67 (Jun 2, 2008)

Looks like it


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## Ursa major (Jun 2, 2008)

On The Sky at Night, a mention was made of an _Arctic_ Circle (and the BBC has mentioned the _Arctic_ region of Mars, as well as the polar region).


Given this, could TEIN explain why he's never mention Mars Bears? (I hope they've not been hunted to extinction. And if they have, he and his fellow Martians had better be prepared for a very angry neighbour arriving to seek revenge.)


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## Cayal (Jun 2, 2008)

How does NASA control this thing anyway? (and why couldn't they have a colour camera?).

I read somewhere (might have been on this thread) that images take 15 minutes to transmit to Earth so wouldn't controlling this thing like a remote car take awhile for your commands to actually make it do what you want it to do (like more forward?)


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## PTeppic (Jun 2, 2008)

I would imagine that the lander is programmed already with dozens, if not hundreds, of jigsaw sub-modules of coding. These will be arranged in a library of default actions, possibly parameterised. Some will be fully automatic, like getting uploads and downloads from Earth. Others will be semi-automatic: move forwards 10m, but it will have its own sensors for dealing with overly slippy ground, running out of power, excessive incline, etc.

The main "programming" will actually just be sending a list of codes that activate certain of the modules: do self-test 1-3, 5-6 and 10-20. Then later in the week, after it sends the results back they might say: scoop at position 3 to a depth of 20mm, and do analysis 1-5. At that rate of movement, "dynamic" control isn't needed. The "scoop" will already be programmed how to move into various positions, how to dig, how to test itself for faults and report them, etc, so just plugs together the moments it needs for "scoop at position 3" and the implicit "dump what I've scooped up into the analyser"


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## PTeppic (Jun 2, 2008)

Cayal said:


> (and why couldn't they have a colour camera?)



I think they have several cameras on the Phoenix. The "main" one is the Surface Stereo Imager (SSI) which produces 1 MPx images in one of 12 wavelengths. It's not clear if that's 1MPx per "eye" or between them. Am I right in thinking that the effect of only picking a single wavelength will be individual images will be B&W, until they get multiple ones and can overlay them...? [Edit: the press pack lists this SSI as "full colour"]

Looking round the NASA site more, there's definitely a full colour camera on the end of the Remote Arm (just above the bucket) that comes with its own double bank of LEDs for illuminating the subject.

It has to be said that the NASA site, whilst informative in a general way, is quite thin on the ground for technical data, such as image sizes, bits-per-image, data transfer rates, etc.

And, in its own way, the Pheonix is pretty limited. Whilst the microscope side can keep on testing away (AFAICT) the wet chemistry section only has four beakers to use. Which means, whilst the lander can't move anyway, there are only four goes at finding water, life or whatever they're really looking for.


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## TheEndIsNigh (Jun 2, 2008)

Ursa major said:


> On The Sky at Night, a mention was made of an _Arctic_ Circle (and the BBC has mentioned the _Arctic_ region of Mars, as well as the polar region).
> 
> 
> Given this, could TEIN explain why he's never mention Mars Bears? (I hope they've not been hunted to extinction. And if they have, he and his fellow Martians had better be prepared for a very angry neighbour arriving to seek revenge.)


 
Well Ursa it's like this. When we got here we shipped anything that was still alive over to your planet. So basically, you and yours are it. 

There's not been any molar bears hear since your Adam cut his first tooth.

By the way things are hotting up on the three legged ones. We have been promised a delivery before August. Though now there is a movements afoot to bypass them and just sort it out ourselves. The noise is getting more and more anoying. Somebody suggested yesterday that we could lob a few small planetoids in your direction to see how you like it.


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## Ursa major (Jun 2, 2008)

So your ownership of the Red Planet - we'll soon make it the White Planet, don't you worry - is iniquitous (i.e. you have positive iniquity).

Tell your friends to expect a repossession notice any day now.




* Ursa starts chanting: "Four Legs Good, Three Legs Bad! Four Legs Good, Three Legs Bad!" *


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## Nik (Jun 2, 2008)

Um, I think Ursa has just invoked the displeasure of the Isle of Man authorities, whose symbol is, yes, three legs aka 'Trie Cassyn' or triskelion...

If he should hear the vroom-vroom of a zillion irate TT supporters clamouring at gate, hasty retreat is recommended...


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## Ursa major (Jun 2, 2008)

Would "Intentionally Three Legged with a Body: Bad!" be an improvement? (It doesn't really scan, though.)


(As someone with ancestors from the Isle of Man, this is embarrassing.)


As to the TT supporters, all I can say is: "On Your Bike!"


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## TheEndIsNigh (Jun 3, 2008)

Ursa major said:


> So your ownership of the Red Planet - we'll soon make it the White Planet, don't you worry - is iniquitous (i.e. you have positive iniquity).
> 
> Tell your friends to expect a repossession notice any day now.
> 
> * Ursa starts chanting: "Four Legs Good, Three Legs Bad! Four Legs Good, Three Legs Bad!" *


 
Look Ursa there's no point coming up here with those lattitudes. 

We have a perfectly valid bill of sale from the previous satient occupiers. They jumped at the chance to hop onto the pretty blue planet when we offered them the chance. If you have any complaints I suggest you take it up with their decendants down there. The galactic council are quite happy with our occupation.

Besides, no offence, but the last thing we want is some white floppetty thing with paws the size of dustbin lids comming up here and spoiling all our nicely raked sand paterns.

Also as I mentioned the three legged ones are purely hired help. Just thugs really but if it makes you feel better drawing attention to there impediments, well good luck. l for one am disapointed as such outmoded views and they certainly will not oil the wheels of diplomatic endeavour.

As for the three legged biker mice from Man, whatever they are, then as you say they can just TTake a running jump.


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## Dave (Jun 10, 2008)

Ursa major said:


> Given this, could TEIN explain why he's never mention Mars Bears?


Or even the Martian Worms?



> Phoenix has photographed a worm-shaped object near one of its feet.  No, it is not a Marsworm.  Visit SpaceWeather.com -- News and information about meteor showers, solar flares, auroras, and near-Earth asteroids to find out what really lies at Phoenix's feet and to view the latest 3D images from the Red Planet.


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## TheEndIsNigh (Jun 11, 2008)

Sorry Dave, as the article says, it's just a spring. The only worms up here are escapees from my tin and they tend not to last long. 

However, if it's wormy planets your after, Arrakis is 400 light years to the right of the Orian nebula.


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## TheEndIsNigh (Jul 24, 2008)

Hello again Earthlings:

Just thought it only fair to warn you the order for the three legged ones is due in August and as you seem to have ignored all my friendly advice about that bl**dy thing on the surface the powers that be will be deciding on your future soon. I will try my best to keep them in the hangers but....

PS: we're all having a good laugh about the "ICE" you think you've exposed up here. It took a bit of doing but it seems to be the "trick"


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## Marcus15 (Jul 24, 2008)

NASA is a huge waste of money. I want them to send a probe to investigate the so called "Face on Mars" and the Cedonia region but they won't.
It's a conspiracy I tells ya!!


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## Ursa major (Jul 24, 2008)

Given that the three-legged ones are displaying such bare-faced cheek (and it had better not be cheek from a real bear's face), we here on Earth will have no choice but to moon at you. (And let's face it, our one moon is a lot bigger than those two excuses for rocks that Mars has.)


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## Maryjane (Jul 26, 2008)

Hi TheEndIsNigh Thank you for the invitation to check out this thread, *Mars *my favorite planet and former home .  Hi all, I do look forward to explore this thread and it's contents. I was in the process of creating a new group that is actually going to be based right her in the UK would you believe. That kept me busy, I'll be back this evening, I suppose it will be here. Thank you very much for the welcomes.

Maryjane


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## TheEndIsNigh (Jul 27, 2008)

Ursa. As I've said before such actions are hardly likely to smooth the path of inter species relationships is it. 

I wouldn't go poking fun at other planets moons if I were you. Someone up here was almost tempted to chuck one of those moons at you so you could have a closer look.


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## Ursa major (Jul 31, 2008)

Moons, perhaps not, but space potatoes?


I ask you: who couldn't make fun of them?


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## Grimward (Jul 31, 2008)

Well, it's August (on the other side of the blue ball, anyway).

*Looks around for three legged invaders, then suspiciously at the tripod for camcorder*


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## TheEndIsNigh (Jul 31, 2008)

Now look here. I'm sweating my ..... off here to help you out and all you can do is make with the sarky comments.


So far you may have got away with it as everyone up here has swanned off on holiday and the three legged ones still haven't arrived. They were due some time in August by the way and that was FOB to us. Obviously we have to unpack them check the anti viral filters work and fit the death rays. Since there's only a few of us left up here it's unlikely they can be ready for August.

It could be that by the time the batteries run out on your infernal machine the Hawkish amongst us wont be back. So you may be able to count yourselves lucky.

OK so they didn't plan it very well but what can I say. You lot are hardly at the logistics centre of the universe so who are you to criticise.


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## Dave (Aug 1, 2008)

TEIN - your secret is out now! There is Water on Mars after all.


> LOS ANGELES (AFP) — NASA scientists said Thursday the Phoenix lander exploring Mars had confirmed water on the planet after analysis of a soil sample from the Red planet's surface.
> 
> The discovery was made after the lander's robotic arm delivered a sample this week to an instrument onboard the lander that identifies vapors through heating samples.
> 
> "We have water," said William Boynton of the University of Arizona, lead scientist for the lander's "oven" Thermal and Evolved-Gas Analyzer, or TEGA.


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## TheEndIsNigh (Aug 1, 2008)

Whoa there Dave. I never denied it. See previous posts. Theres loads of the stuff up here. Thats not the problem (well we don't have a problem). It's just that if you think we are going to allow some upstarts, who from our point of view are still running round in bear skins and throwing stone axes, to come up here and cause chaos then you can think again.

You lot with your over breeding, guns, murder and other despicable crimes, loud music and careless disregard for anything that isn't human (well a rich human anyway). Perhaps if you concentrated on feeding all your peoples and stopped annihilating the other life forms that share your planet with rather than wasting huge amounts just to come up here and make our lives hell. Perhaps then we could forgive your expansionist policies but until then you can all take a running jump.

And Ursa think about it. It's them humans down there that are melting your ice caps and killing off all your relatives. All we want to do is relax catch some rays and play in the sand pit. We'd prefer you could sample the delights of the strawberry pun-net but they don't allow you to go south. They just keep you up there in the cold frozen north making you survive on dead seals and the occasional dead whale and shooting you if you stray near their precious towns.


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## Ursa major (Aug 1, 2008)

So the water's not the result of the current occupiers of Mars having a collective accident at the thought of what we here on Earth might do if taunted too much?


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## TheEndIsNigh (Aug 2, 2008)

Now that's funny. 

If you recall I mentioned earlier how we like to keep the surface spotless and how your planets pathetic attempts at space travel is spoiling our quiet life.


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