# What is your ideal concept of fantasy?



## Morning Star (Dec 7, 2004)

I was just curious...there are so many varying types of fantasy out there...by this you can include science fiction as well. But in the traditional terms of "sword and sorcery" fantasy I have picky tastes.

I like what has now been established as traditional western concepts of fantasy, which found their roots in european legends and I think a lot from Tolkeins own visions. 

However, I do not like to think that a world so infused with magic and epic landscapes is one set in the 'middle' or 'dark' ages. While I enjoy the luxuries of modern living, I wish sometimes that the industrial revolution had never taken place..if magic was such a tangible concept then it could substitute a lot of science. (The two have always seemed to resent or fear each other, science vs magic.)

I would like to create an alternate 'fantasy' world that has developed in it's own right, but is still dominated by magic and monsters and dark lords...without the need for cars and computers.

Basically I would just like to see a break away from the stigma that a novel set in alternate world that still has vast untouched forests is a world that is still primative.

Or maybe I'm just rambling and making a fool out of myself.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Dec 7, 2004)

I don't have a single sort of ideal setting I like to see in fantasy novels. All I ask is that it be filled with wonder and strageness. As I believe our world is. Rambling is good.


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## Leto (Dec 7, 2004)

Morning Star said:
			
		

> I like what has now been established as traditional western concepts of fantasy, which found their roots in european legends and I think a lot from Tolkeins own visions.


That's definitly what I don't want to read anymore. So many fantasy books nowadays are just a re-harsh of Tolkien's works and of D&D world, it's getting boring. Unless you have a real twist to it, please no more elves, orcs or dragons in fantasy book.  There's others mythos worlds around to play with...

My main complain about current fantasy is its lack of... "fantasy". If you want to play with orcs and elves, make then shift their side for example. The beautiful elves are the incarnation of evil, and the ugliest orcs fight for the good side.


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## Morning Star (Dec 7, 2004)

I agree with you entirely, but that's not so much a fault of the origin of those concepts. More likely it's the fault of unoriginal writers churning out pulp fantasy..and I find the DnD world to be so 'cluttered' and far from epic or surreal, but rather bordering on contemporary and 'popular' concepts. 

I am creating concept art for a table top RPG (private use) that has trolls still outwardly appearing as huge behemoths with massive tusks...but in reality being misunderstood warrior poets with a deep affinity with the fey folk that they share their forest with. So I can see exactly where you're coming from.

EDIT

PS: I am no fan of elves..never have been never will be, it seems that they have developed a form of cult worship...I have nothing really against them..but it does seem that everytime there is fantasy, there is an elf thrown into the mix and they are always "teh beautiful!!11!"


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## Lucifer (Dec 7, 2004)

Morning Star said:
			
		

> I like what has now been established as traditional western concepts of fantasy, which found their roots in european legends and I think a lot from Tolkeins own visions.


I have to agree with Leto on this one.  The Euro Tradition is very, very done, but it's often done poorly.  For some reason, fantasy people living in medieval conditions seem awfully healthy.  Bad teeth, disease, shortened life span, and the back breaking day to day labor of the serfs is rarely mentioned.  The labor is especially important, as that's what kept our nobility in their castles, but it's rare to find a story this blunt.  It would be no fun to read.

I'm also tired of authors borrowing from other world cultures and religions as well.  I often wonder why no authors are going all out an devising completely unique cultures, creating new solar systems, new principles of how the world works, new races that avoid the cliches of elves and orcs.  It's as though humans are humans, elves are elves, dwarves are dwarves, modes of behavior are set, here are your conventions, write about them.

But then again, I wonder if the community would embrace omething so alien to them.  Le Guin pulled it off with "Stranger in a Strange Land," but how many places are that unique?



			
				Morning Star said:
			
		

> However, I do not like to think that a world so infused with magic and epic landscapes is one set in the 'middle' or 'dark' ages...if magic was such a tangible concept then it could substitute a lot of science.
> 
> I would like to create an alternate 'fantasy' world that has developed in it's own right, but is still dominated by magic and monsters and dark lords...without the need for cars and computers.


Actually, I agree with you, and that's what I'm working on.  I think a lot of the novels out today are set in the medieval period of a world because we have very little groundwork for what might come before or after.  My series (anticipated 36 volumes) starts 200 years after time begins and follows the world through to space travel.  There will be something like computers, but they come across AI sooner than we do.  The world is also much more thinly populated (part of the Laws of Essences laid down by the Deities of the world) and natural features are left mostly intact.  As for magic, there are two main groups of users: those whose abilities are Deity given and those whose abilities are scholarly.  Deity given gifts vary according to race; some can earth sculpt, some can shape shift, some can see the future.  The scholarly arts include Alchemism, Naturalism, and Contraptionism - these are basically magic-based versions of mage-work requiring the use of various substances, mage-work based upon biology, and mage-work based upon mechanics respectively.  Some people specialize in one discipline, others work in all three.  A lot of the time, the three groups work together: for example, they created a line of living mechanical horses that require maitenance rather than grooming and feeding.

One of the cool things about the series is going to be seeing what kinds of situations arise organically from the past and how the cultures change over time.  By the time I get to the last of the books, it will be an aggressively fleshed out world, with it's own history and unique cultures.  (I hope!)

Luce.


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## Foxbat (Dec 7, 2004)

I don't read a lot of what is normally classed as Fantasy because I find it to be quite repetetive:  sword/ring/ whatever, - quest, elves/monsters/gnomes nice scenery, character fulfilling potential (king/queen/wizard...blah blah blah) etc. etc.

It's probably just a bad choice of writer on my part but, there you go.

I try to look for something a bit different. Michael Ondaatje's In The Skin Of A Lion is not classed as a Fantasy but has some interesting elements that I _would_ class as Fantasy. It's refreshingly different.
Another is Mark Helprin's Winter's Tale.

I've got myself a couple of books by China Mieville so I'm hoping that he may offer something new (when I get around to reading them)


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## BandSmurf (Dec 7, 2004)

I like elves.  Of course, what I really like about them is when the author gives more of the lore correctly, and has both the Bright and Dark Courts, thus representing the fact that bad can wear just as beautiful a face as good.  Anyway.  I guess my ideal fantasy stems from the fact I want interesting characters, and a well written book/series.  A lot of the fantasy I've tried to read was either all action, or all character development, or just poorly written altogether.  That's why I stopped reading Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series.  For me, the books weren't balanced enough to be absorbing.  They got too complicated, too dark, and I didn't connect to enough of the characters well enough to continue reading the series.  I guess my ideal fantasy just means it's well enough written that it can draw me in and make me forget my surroundings, but that can go for any art form too... now who's rambling?

~BandSmurf

PS  Lucifer, what's Le Guin's Stranger in a Strange Land about?  I've read Heinlein's, but I didn't know she wrote a book by the same name.


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## littlemissattitude (Dec 7, 2004)

As I've probably said ad nauseum around here, I really like urban fantasy.  I love the idea of our industrialized, computerized, nuclear age/space age world still being a place where magick can live and wondrous things can happen.  I especially like the idea that normal, common folks can get caught up in all of that.

Lucifer wrote:



> For some reason, fantasy people living in medieval conditions seem awfully healthy. Bad teeth, disease, shortened life span, and the back breaking day to day labor of the serfs is rarely mentioned.


I've found that in most traditional fantasy (and, yes, I do know that there are exceptions) it's the nobles who are the focus of the books, with a serf or slave sometimes thrown in for contrast or to "straighten the rich folks out".  And even then, the nobles are notably healthier and more attractive than medieval nobles ever were in reality.  But in urban fantasy, taking place in the more modern, presumably more egalitarian world, the main characters can be just about anyone from just about any walk of life.  I like that a lot.


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## Circus Cranium (Dec 7, 2004)

I often read traditional fantasy, if it's well written, as it offers a nice lulling escape. But I personally write contemporary fantasy, and urban fantasy. I find it more fun to take the fantasy into my own world, and let it toss the normal-peeps around a bit, rather than going offworld.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Dec 7, 2004)

Actually, readers have been saying they are tired of the same old quasi-medieval fantasy for at least the last twenty years, but our buying habits continue to say otherwise.

I could name dozens of fantasy novels where the setting was either not medieval or not European, but most of them did very poorly in terms of sales, while the Robert Jordanses and the David Eddingses of this world continue to sell very well indeed.  

The problem may be that when readers say "I want something different" we all have a pretty clear idea of what that something different should be and it's a different idea for each of us.  When something different does come out but it doesn't fit that internal description, the average reader ignores that and buys the latest Eddings instead.  Neither one is exactly what he wanted, but at least with the Eddings he knows what he is getting. 

Of course the price of books these days is also a factor.  Why take a chance when books are so expensive?


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## littlemissattitude (Dec 7, 2004)

Kelpie said:
			
		

> Of course the price of books these days is also a factor. Why take a chance when books are so expensive?


I have one word for you, Kelpie: library.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Dec 7, 2004)

But libraries don't sell books or pay royalties.  What I am trying to say is that everytime we buy a book new, we essentially cast our vote for more books of the exact same sort to be published.  If we check out a book from the library, or borrow a book from a friend, or wait to buy it used, we don't vote at all.   If we wait for a hard back or a trade paper back to come out in mass market we delay voting, maybe until the publisher has already conceded defeat (in which case there will be no mass market).  

I know this, but I seldom have the nerve to put out the dollars for a hardcover edition of a book by a new author.  ("Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell" was a big exception, but it sounded like the kind of book that I like and want to see more of, so I took a chance.  Still, I hesitated for a couple of months because of the price.)


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## BandSmurf (Dec 7, 2004)

Kelpie- very very good point.  And littlemissattitude, what about us that don't have a library we can go to?  For some reason, my college library does't carry much fiction (even less SFF), and I can't get a library card for the county I'm in.  Which, since this is Eastern Kentucky, probably doesn't have much SFF in it either.  

Though I have another point to throw out- marketing.  The traditional fantasy books have much better marketing, and a much better history of marketing behind them, so they reach more of the random buyers, or gift buyers.  To someone who hasn't read much fantasy, but wants a start, the stereotypical images presented on traditional novels appeals more, not to mention the fact it is usually the traditional novels out on the stands where you can see the whole cover.  All of this contributes to the 'vote' that a buyer makes, but how much do many of the buyers know about what they're buying?

~BandSmurf


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## dwndrgn (Dec 7, 2004)

Just a note on the library stuff - libraries order their books directly from the publishing houses and most welcome suggestions.  Therefore, if everyone suggests to their home libraries (those lucky enough to have one) books by lesser known authors and such, the publishing houses hear and note that type of thing.  This is why many authors who have their own websites ask that you suggest the library carry their books - it is advertising in its own way.  Also, people are much more likely to pick up an unknown if it is free and discover more and diverse wonders...and then spread the word.  Word of mouth is still the most effective advertising tool there is.  Another reason why forums like this are considered good things by the publishing houses.  They know that if people are talking about a book, more people will buy it.


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## Lucifer (Dec 7, 2004)

Foxbat said:
			
		

> I've got myself a couple of books by China Mieville so I'm hoping that he may offer something new (when I get around to reading them)


You are in for a treat, as long as the book isn't King Rat, because Perdido Street Station and The Scar are amazing.  Some of the best fantasy I've ever read, and I can't believe I forgot to mention him when I wrote my list.

And speaking of said list . . .



			
				BandSmurf said:
			
		

> PS Lucifer, what's Le Guin's Stranger in a Strange Land about? I've read Heinlein's, but I didn't know she wrote a book by the same name.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Teresa Edgerton (Dec 8, 2004)

I've been told by someone who ought to know (an editor) that hardcore fans who go to conventions and post on websites like this one make up a very, very small percentage of the fantasy market.  So naturally that larger percentage is who they have to go after in marketing a book, if it's not going to be a financial disaster.

Most of us here might prefer settings where there actually appears to be an economy and a government in place, where there are peasants and potters and candlemakers and wheelwrights all hard at work to keep things going and food on the table, but there are plenty of readers who don't want to know about that sort of thing, who put it all down as boring background information that slows down the story, and are perfectly happy reading about a society that seems to be made up entirely of heroes, magicians, thieves, and innkeepers.  By the same token, some of us may know that historically speaking the belief and the practice of magic did not, in fact, end with the Middle Ages, but there are vast numbers of readers who feel that magic and technology are mutually exclusive (as though they didn't have any technology before the Industrial Revolution!) and they don't feel that anything qualifies as a fantasy without a wizard or a dragon on the cover.  And I fear that as long as there are more of "them" than there are of "us" nothing is going to change very much very soon.

In writing my own epic (excuse the plug), I made sure to mention the starving peasants, as well as the traders, fishermen, sailors, craftsmen, midwives, et al.  I wanted to make it clear that each new place where my characters found themselves had its own economy, customs, architecture, history, and traditions.   But I put all those things in to please myself and for readers who like what I like, not because I thought they would sell more books.  I don't think they will sell books.  If "The Hidden Stars" does well, it will probably be because people like the story and the characters;  if it does badly, it will probably be because of the story and the characters, too.  A handful of readers may be attracted by those other things, but most people will just skip over them.


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## BandSmurf (Dec 8, 2004)

Very much agreed.  And that's interesting what the editor said.  My dad's in advertising (not for books though) so that where my marketing comment came from.  

Lucifer- that's cool, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something great!  I love Charles de Lint (why I started a thread on him) he's great for the urban fantasy.  Someone else that's good is Mercedes Lackey.  She's got the slightly more typical stuff going in her Valdemar series, but she's also got Bedlam Bards and The Serrated Edge which are set in modern times.  The Serrated Edge stuff is great about mixing tech and magic, and portraying the good and bad elves.  

She's also got something else going on that I do like as well- She's retelling some of the old fairy tales, but from slightly more um, historical view, but at the same time, more fantastic.  It's the Elemental Masters stuff, if anyone else has read it, I'd love to know.

~BandSmurf


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## dwndrgn (Dec 8, 2004)

I read the Fairy Godmother one, very enjoyable light read.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Dec 8, 2004)

I really don't give two hoots for the financial-marketing-business-most readers-yada yada. I'm a reader, my money's as good as anyone else's and I'm not wasting any of it on anyone who plays it safe and merely gives me more of the same. 

And for all that the obese fantasy stuff still dominates the market, there is a shift - just a shift, a broadening of the landscape, not a revolution, to be sure - taking place. I doubt that China Mieville's Perdido Street Station or Jeff VanderMeer's Veniss Underground would have found big-name publishers or notched up the solid sales they have about ten years back. 

The faux-mediaeval doorstop stuff will never die for the same reason bublegum pop songs about adolescent infatuation will never die, but let's not restrict the genre and its readers to just that. I've almost stopped buying OCDs because shops here rarely stock the bands I want to hear. So I'm forced into being a criminal by taking part in piracy. If the influx of fantasy fiction was similarly dominated by pabulum, well, I wouldn't be reading so much and saying so much about it, would I?

Also, do the marketing mavens know that their bloody 'safe' marketing of trad fantasy attributes may actually be limitng the genre? I know several voracious readers who have an appreciation for the fantastic side of things, but stay away from most fantasy because:

a. It has such cheesy cover art - swords, knights, terrible gold-embossed fonts. Sheesh. 

b. Everything is like Volume 76 of the 100-book Swords of Avallonia Series. Come on - either tell me one story in one book once in a while or leave me alone!

c. They didn't even like Tolkien that much in the first place and it all looks like more Tolkien.

I suppose the market surveys never really get to this particular focus group. Typical.


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## Foxbat (Dec 8, 2004)

> a. It has such cheesy cover art - swords, knights, terrible gold-embossed fonts. Sheesh.





> b. Everything is like Volume 76 of the 100-book Swords of Avallonia Series. Come on - either tell me one story in one book once in a while or leave me alone!





> c. They didn't even like Tolkien that much in the first place and it all looks like more Tolkien.



Well, apart from c. I think you've got me pretty well sussed (I quite liked LOTR)


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## polymorphikos (Dec 8, 2004)

To bring this back around to the original point of the topic, in fantasy I like anything that is using a hell of a lot of imagination and doing it well. This is why I love Burroughs, Howard, Mieville, and many other authors. This is why I prefer Victorian and Golden Age sf, and try to avoid the self-satirising cynicism sneaking into a lot of authors' work. This is why I mostly read short stories and often read adventure novels, which are just sword and sorcery without the sorcery. That said, I am currently writing (inevitable reference, but sorry) a trawl through the lives of two criminals in a quasi-industrialised world, focussed upon trying to pump as much interesting stuff into it as possible, and there isn't a single noble or unconquerable hero in sight, and numerous whores and thieves and gangsters and individuals with substance-abuse problems float past. Mary Gentle's Grunts! and Rats and Gargoyles taught me that fantasy can be ugly, cruel and completely lacking a conscience, and I'm trying at it to express, in a sense, exactly what I want in fantasy (or at least one part of it).

Note that this is not a plug, as this book probably won't be finished, and almost certainly will never be published.

If you understood what the hell I was on about, please tell me. I'd like to know.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Dec 8, 2004)

I would imagine that the market surveys do get to that particular focus group -- and have decided there aren't enough of them to go after their business.

And Knivesout, of course your money is as good as anyone's -- but by the same token, the folks who like what you don't like or I don't like, their money is as good as ours.  And there are more of them.

Anyway, no one is telling you to buy books that you don't like.  In fact, I've been saying just the opposite.  If we were all wiser consumers, we might have a bigger and better impact on the market.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Dec 8, 2004)

Faith in market surveys is a bit misplaced. I've been in on some of these things - their methodologies are mostly a sham. May as well read chicken entrails.

Still, I do believe things are looking better than ever, and we really do have a genre scene today where there's something for everyone, even the marginal sorts like me who want something different. That's a good thing, and I won't deny that it's partly because of the big franchises that have grown the whole market to this point.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Dec 8, 2004)

A couple of people have mentioned cheesy cover art, so I might as well share something rather shocking that I learned about cover art (well, it was shocking to me -- the rest of you may already know it).  It's not really meant to appeal to the consumer; first and foremost it's supposed to appeal to the distributors and the buyers at the bookstores.  Because if they won't take the book, the rest of us are unlikely to get the chance to be either attracted or repulsed by the cover.

In spite of knowing this, even though I'm well aware that the cover may be totally unrepresentative of the contents, I have to admit that whether or not I pick up a book and look inside is still largely influenced by the cover art.


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## Morning Star (Dec 8, 2004)

Of course, that's one of the key elements in marketing. Package design...you have to attract the customers attention. I love cover art on books, I hope to be a freelancer one day who will get the pleasure of illustrating covers.


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## Leto (Dec 8, 2004)

knivesout said:
			
		

> Still, I do believe things are looking better than ever, and we really do have a genre scene today where there's something for everyone, even the marginal sorts like me who want something different. That's a good thing, and I won't deny that it's partly because of the big franchises that have grown the whole market to this point.



From my side ot the Channel, there's a small change currently, in the 90s you couldn't find new sci-fi novels anymore except reedition. All you had was swashbuckling medevial type of fantasy (either macho or hyper-feminist) and the market was saturated (mostly because out of 150 new books you can't have 150 good books). Now the tide goes back to sci-fi and other types of fantasy start to appears : urban, asian, egyptian or greek mythology, humor for example. Why this ? Because we nearly had an overdose of "classical" type of fantasy. And also because someone had the idea to translate Prachett's works (finishing by the Discworld novels instead of starting by them). His success has opened the door to others (both international and french)


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## littlemissattitude (Dec 8, 2004)

Well, there are a lot of people who can't afford to go out and buy new books, especially new hardbacks.  That leaves only the library as an option.  And it usually isn't that difficult to get a library card.  Even once when I was living in a motel with my parents in a different state from my permanent residence for a month and a half because my dad's job took us away from home, all I needed to do to get a library card was to get a letter vouching for me from the motel manager to get a temporary card.

Besides, libraries promote book sales.  Many times, I've read a book out of the library and then gone out and bought a copy because I wanted it for my personal library.

And, let me just vent on this one topic - I _hate_ it when books in the bookstore come wrapped in cellophane so that you can't even browse it before you buy it, which seems to be happening more and more.  It's like movies that reviewers aren't allowed to see before they are released - they're usually so bad that the production company doesn't want word of how bad they really are until after they are actually in the theatres.  I suspect that it's the same with books wrapped in cellophane - the publishers are afraid that if you can sneak a peek, you won't want to buy it.

And I think all of this is on topic - because how does one know if a book is the type of fantasy that they like if they can't see at least a representative sample before they buy.  Or have we in the West turned into such a capitalist society that even a peek is going to cost money?  Honestly, I won't buy anything that I can't examine first - even and especially books.  I mean, how would you like to be required to buy clothing sight unseen - not able to try it on to see if it fits and not able to examine the seams and the fabric to make sure that it is of good quality?  This is not such an outlandish example, by the way - I once went into a clothing store that would not allow the clothes to be tried on before they were purchased.  Needless to say I never bought anything there.

Goodness.  Maybe I should have put this post in the Vent and Rant Thread over in the Lounge.


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## Sirathiel (Dec 9, 2004)

To get once more back to the original question...

I, too, prefer books that are original. I am sure most of you have heard of 'The Orcs'. Some German writer picked up the idea and wrote a book who's title translates to 'The Dwarves'. I'm currently trying to read it, but it just doesn't hold my interest. It's (I think) to much like Tolkien. Just another world full of humans, dwarves, elves, orcs, wizards, etc. Each race has a dark counterpart, yadayadayada.

Since I'm a hobby writer, this thread made me think about what kind of fantasy I write myself. I think I try to be as original as possible. But I have this obsession with dragons...  No, seriously, I'm working on a story that's in a medieval setting, but without magic. The most magical it gets are some legendary creatures (one dragon, one unicorn, one cerberus...) But they're not the main characters. Another story of mine has nuclear desaster on Earth, some survivors (genetically slightly altered) flee planet Earth and start a new life on another planet with an indigenous species. The technnology of both races is limited, and the ex-humans have some latent magical abilities.

To make long things short: I think I try to be original. For examples, see above. It's sad that many authors just rehash old plots, even plots that were once original.


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## Space Monkey (Dec 9, 2004)

I'm way more into urban and dark fantasy/sci-fi that blends with horror and the supernatural. Can't stand the singing hobbit sh1t.
Event Horizon - sci-fi from Hell. Great story, with so much of the Clive Barker-esque cenobite style imagery that who cares what genre they tag it as. I think there's far too much 'this genre' and 'that genre' going on, that people become elitist and snobbish towards anything outside the genre often without even giving it a chance. A great story is a great story full stop.

I like characters that I can identify with too, so that when they speak/act/react, you understand and empathize completely. 

Ideal story for me is something written in such a down-to-earth style that no matter what happens, you believe it. The characters take craps and wipe their ass; they stink like salted beef when they've been running, they trip over shoes in the middle of the floor, throw them at the wall and scream at them when no-ones around. They swear too much, drink milk from the carton, sometimes forget to brush their teeth until four in the afternoon, and then feel grubby and ashamed because of it.

lol this isn't me though (ahem) its just somebody I know.


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## Princess Ivy (Dec 16, 2004)

littlemissattitude said:
			
		

> As I've probably said ad nauseum around here, I really like urban fantasy. I love the idea of our industrialized, computerized, nuclear age/space age world still being a place where magick can live and wondrous things can happen. I especially like the idea that normal, common folks can get caught up in all of that.


Try beauty by Sherri S Tepper.  is fantastic, detailing the decline of magic through the ages as religion and commercialism start to steal its power


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## Neon (Dec 19, 2004)

The best fantasy I've ever read have been the traditional type of fantasy.  However, I'm really interested to read authors who are very innovative in how they write about magic, characters, etc.  An example of this is the Runelords by David Farlard.  I was really intrigued by the use of attributes to strengthen the characters..... while at the same time found the book lacking in many other aspects that make a novel beyond simply "good".  One thing I generally steer clear of are fantasy novels that use our current world.  I tend to like entirely new worlds to read & explore.


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## lester (Feb 12, 2005)

just thought i would chime in, and dont mean to offend anyone who writes int the genres i dont like

but yeah, i cant stand the modern fantasy with magic in todays world. i think the main reason is that it seems almost more unbelievable than the fantasy invlolving medieval castles and whatnot. anything set in the semi modern era, i can look and see that there are, in fact, no witches in canada summoning dragons to invade dc.
thats just me though. but yeah, the standard medieval setting was way overdone a few years ago

im really starting to like the writing like dune, and even the pulpy warhammer 40k. while these are more sci fi, the do involve lots of the standard fantasy elements (orcs, some form of "magic" hero's).


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## cleasterwood (Feb 12, 2005)

Give me good old Egyptian style fantasy like the kind I write.  I've read many fantasy books along the way as well as mainstream.  What I find most disturbing is the warmed over versions of the Mummy.  For goodness sakes I mean if you see a 3000 year old mummy covered in faded cerements walking your way you aren't rightfully going to stand there and watch it while it comes to kill you.  That's why I started writing Egyptian fantasy, to stear clear of the traditional stories.  Seriously, why can't the characters be at least a little more realistic in their actions?  I see characters do the most stupid things that any normal person in the real world would not do.  Even characters are becoming cliched these days so I set out to write a novel that avoided the cliches and according to a few of my readers, I have done a good job at it.  
Mythology, especially Egyptian, has enough stories to fill thousands of novels so I'm taking advantage of it by cornering the market while purposely avoiding warmed over stories.  

And don't get me started about all the fantasy stories set in the Middle Ages, been there done that, sick of them!  I'd even go so far as to write stories around other mythologies just to get away from the Middle Ages.  How many times can you redo "King Arthur" before it starts becoming a bore? Twice, maybe three times then it's time to send the story to the trash pile.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Feb 12, 2005)

About twenty years ago, Cleasterwood, I thought that the Arthurian mythos had been totally played out.  Not only was I, myself, sick of reading endless rewrites and reinterpretations of the whole cycle, I was convinced that publishers and other readers must be as well, and that any author who tried to sell such a book wouldn't have a chance in the world of getting it published.

Well, I was wrong.  It seemed that there were plenty of readers who either hadn't read nearly as much of the stuff as I had, or who were able to read vast quantities more without becoming satiated.  

Not only that, but after refusing to touch the stuff for about fifteen years, I found that my own interest had been renewed and refreshed.  Yes, I'm reading Arthurian fantasy again, though more selectively than I did before.  

So, it's far from my ideal concept of fantasy, but it is my idea of a good, comfortable read -- when done well.

My ideal fantasy takes me out of the here and now and whisks me away to another place so vivid and alive that I'd swear I COULD visit it in the flesh.  It has fascinating and believable characters for whom I can feel at least a little sympathy.  It has an original plot, with enough complications to keep it interesting, but the actions and the events should not strain my credulity -- in other words, I shouldn't feel manipulated.  It has shadings of both darkness and light.  It is beautifully written.


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## Circus Cranium (Feb 12, 2005)

I think there is plenty of fantasy literature out there that may use the token themes, but the imagination and skill of the author brings it to a new level. That's what I like to read; something that gives me escapism (as Kelpie said), and also something that makes me go...whoa. Well I've never seen it done like THAT before. I reviewed a fantasy novel recently for one of my fellow Mundania authors that was like this. In fact, I'm gonna go post the review on the reviews section.


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## cleasterwood (Feb 12, 2005)

Kelpie,
Every once in a blue moon there is an author who can make the traditional genre stand out above the rest, but it's been a long time since I've read Arthurian or any Middle Ages style stories--mostly because of my fascination with the Ancient Egyptian culture.  Their myths don't get quite enough fan-fare as it should in my opinion.  If the mummy movies and stories can rake in millions so too could a well-written Egyptian fantasy piece surrounding other myths.  With luck and determination I'll find out when my first story becomes published.  I'm planning it as trilogy, but have already thought of at least 6 off-shoots with working titles just from the basic myths of their culture.  Dare I say I intend on recreating Plato's description of Atlantis with an Eygptian twist in the second book I'm writing now.  Although the trilogy is rooted in controversial theory, I hope to incorporate controversial and mainstream archeaological theories into a new type of story.  Only time will tell.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Feb 13, 2005)

I'm all for following your heart in choosing the kind of book that you want to write.  I also sympathize with your being bored, as a reader, with Arthurian fantasy and medieval type fantasy in general, having gone through a long period when I felt the same way.  But the long-term appeal of that kind of book seems to be bigger than both of us.


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## rune (Feb 13, 2005)

I like any magic at all as long as it's written in a believable way and used in a startling and exciting way  

I much prefer a fantasy novel with magic than none at all.  For me magic is an important aspect of fantasy


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## cleasterwood (Feb 13, 2005)

Kelpie,
So true-- all of what you've said.    Still good to follow your passions when it comes to your own stories though.  I'm uncertain if I would ever write the more traditional fantasy stories, but it might be an interesting attempt on my part.  Their appeal may be bigger than we; however, so is the Egyptian style stories but I don't see many writers braving the great unknown to expand that section of the genre.  I think the reason is though that writing Egyptian stories is too involved for most writers as there is much to research if you want to get things right.  I've immersed myself into the rich history of the culture with many years of research (although every once in a while I make mistakes like we all do) and intend on bringing that section of the genre into the spotlight--Fates be willing anyway.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Feb 13, 2005)

Cleasterwood, just because we don't see the results of that effort doesn't mean that writers are not trying new variations on fantasy all the time.  It simply means that most of those books aren't being accepted and published, or that if they are those books only remain on the shelves for a month or so because hardly anyone buys them.  (Six weeks is how long most books have to prove themselves in bookstores.)


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## cleasterwood (Feb 14, 2005)

So, how then does one go about making that story sell enough copies inside six weeks?  I ask because I don't want to see my story get published and then get "put on the back in the discount rack like another can of beans" (Billy Joel said that).  I know someone who has a sci-fi series published and even though he hasn't built nearly enough of a following or sold lots of copies, he's still getting his stories published.  Doesn't it usually take a few books to be published before sales soar, especially for a new author? And what do they consider enough sales to keep it on the shelf?   Personally, I've thought of a few things to use as marketing devices.  Once I get my advance I plan on booking and traveling to book stores to do signings to help with promotions as I have family across the country whom I can stay with to avoid hotel bills, send a copy of it to Regis & Kelly (Kelly has a book club and they usually review them on the air.), Oprah won't work because she's into the true-life stories, placing an ad on 'book tv' (yes there's a book tv), send out press releases with reader reviews, set up a website for my novels, place an ad in Reader's Digest, give away free copies, and well several other ideas including one that is a little far-fetched like dressing up as a different one of my characters each time I do book signings.  I've already started building my fan base and have at least 5 peps in different areas of the country who will promote it as much as I do.  I have titles that I know people into the new age scene will look at and go, oh! I want to read that!  For some reason the word ATLANTIS stirs up a lot of readers!  I know I have a good solid story, which is part of a trilolgy, every person who has read it loved it and I'm not talking about friends and family either (although they liked it they're biased); I'm talking about people on the internet that I don't know from shoot or shinola.  I'm doing my homework.  I even have a link listing all the Egyptian style books ever written some with best-sellers noted.  That's another place to promote my story.  What does it take?


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## Teresa Edgerton (Feb 14, 2005)

All those things you suggest could lead to respectable and more than respectable sales, plus more than six weeks on the bookshelves.  But to generate the millions of dollars you were talking about earlier is largely a matter of luck and timing.  And first, of course, for any of this to be effective the book has to be published and booksellers have to be willing to stock it, which is where the more popular sorts of fantasy have the edge.

But the excellence of your writing or your zeal for promoting it is quite beside my point (or the point of this thread).  Original fantasy novels that break the mold are being written all the time, but few of them get published and few of those that do get published sell as well as you or I might think they deserve.


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## cleasterwood (Feb 14, 2005)

Kelpie,
I have to disagree that being a best-seller is largely luck and timing.  I tend to think it's a matter of promoting the book properly, having a plan to do it in a reasonable amount of time, and putting enough money into promoting to make it become a 'million dollar baby'.  If there are fantasy novels breaking the mold, then we should see them as any good agent/publisher can clearly see that it does break the mold, in theory at least. I don't really care if I make millions I just want to write for the love of writing but I want make a decent living doing it.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Feb 14, 2005)

But agents and publishers are less interested in breaking the mold than they are in acquiring books they know they can sell because of their similarity to books that have sold well in the past, Cleasterwood.

I'm not just guessing here, when I say that non-traditional, non-medieval fantasy books are being written.  I've met a great many fantasy writers (aspiring and published) over the years, and I know what some of them have been writing, I know what they are trying to get agents and editors to look at.  Some of them are very fine writers, who can get their other things published with no problem, so it's not the quality of the writing. 

And if these writers are in any way representative of the larger writing community, I can only conclude that there are plenty of writers who would love to write such books, if they could find a way to make a decent living at it.

None of which is meant to discourage you.  Write the book that it's in you to write, write it because you love it, write it because it cries out to be written, write it because if you don't write the kind of books you would like to read then who will?  By whatever combination of luck, hard work, and skill you may accomplish what others have tried before and failed.  At the very least, you'll have the satisfaction of knowing that you followed your heart.

I just don't want you to think that you are the only writer clever enough and daring enough to take a chance on something different, and that you are therefore certain to be showered with money as a result.  The first is inaccurate, and the second is unlikely -- though far from impossible.

However, we are now more off-topic than ever, and I suggest we take this conversation to some other thread, or continue it privately.


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## cleasterwood (Feb 14, 2005)

Le's set up a new thread then?  I'm always up for a discussion.    BTW, since I do do it for my own joy, then I would never give it up.  Perhaps if it takes a few different style books first then I shall travel that path but only if the first path falters beneath my feet.  I don't expect to be rich by any means.  I've never been in it for that.


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## WarlikeMenelaos (May 16, 2005)

I prefer 'mythology' over all this Middle Age nonsense with Knights in shining armour, dragons everywhere (although I love dragons, just not in this context) some young boy seeking to claim throne with aging wizard as companion. Some odd ancient magical artefact that either saves everyone or is an instrument of evil.

I used to write stuff like that but then read 'The Aeneid' then 'The Iliad' which has really brought me into the whole Greek mythology thing. My writing is now heavily influenced by that, before my characters used to be so two dimensional but now they have tonnes of history, actual character traits (flaws and all) The story is epic and one day I really hope to finish it. I must admit that I don't read much from modern fantasy authors and prefer to read the classics. I'm hoping to read the Odyssey next and then probably read about Jason and the Argonauts, there's just plenty of material out there. 

This might sound strange but I also enjoy reading history just because it's more interesting than some fantasy stories out there today. Sumerian tales (who can say anything bad about the Epic of Gilgamesh?), Egyptian tales (gotta love Egypt, love their stories)

I've gone on a bit so I'm gonna stop now. Anybody know of any books that fit my tastes? Always on the lookout for more reading material.


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## Brian G Turner (May 16, 2005)

I can completely relate to that, WarlikeManalaos - and welcome to the chronicles network.


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## nixie (May 16, 2005)

I'm not drawn to one type of fantasy over another. Even when a book is badly written I can find something in it to keep me reading to the end.


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## fungi from Yuggoth (May 16, 2005)

Warlike Menelaos, you might like to try some of the African mythologies/epics. Try the famous Ethiopian mythology tale the Kebra Nagast (Book of Kings) or the Malian Epic of Sundiata, both of which are available in English translation. There's also a whole bunch of great Sudanese folklore/legendry, some of which ties into ancient Egyptian mythology (the Emprie of Kush/Sudan was closely related to the Empire of Egypt in ancient times). Unfortunately I haven't read much of that so I can't really recommend specific works.


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## fungi from Yuggoth (May 16, 2005)

In response to the thread, I find that my ideal concept of fantasy is something which takes me on a fantastic journey, something which enlivens me and thrills me with its strangeness, its freshness of storytelling, its imagination of setting... in short, something that is _original_. I don't even consider most of the pulpy trash that passes for modern 'fantasy' actual fantasy, simply because the worlds in which these so-called tales take place in are so similar to each other that they are, in their own way, a real place with real conventions and steadfast rules. It's a sad state of affairs when writers are forced to comply with certain fans' expectations of the genre for fear of accidentally labeling an orc a troll or portraying an elf as anything other than a noble forest dwelling person of pure and ancient lineage. 

Sure, there are some fine and worthy modern fantasy authors, but on the whole there is still a subconscious Tolkienization of most works. That's why I have gradually been reading more of the pre-Tolkien fantasies, the works of Eddison, Dunsany, Hope Hodgson... even the pulp shorts of the Weird Tales era have more vitality than many of the authors of today. For me, these guys portray the ideal fantasy period. Their writing may be clunky in places, their worlds and settings far-out, their ideals may be a little *ahem* unenlightened, but they weren't afraid of being as original and fantastic as possible.

And that for me represents ideal fantasy!


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## Stormflame (May 16, 2005)

Fantasy to me...hmmm....

When I think of fantasy, as so often I do, my mind is taken to the land of Mordor or the the village of the Shire.  The lotr's best describes my pic of fantasy.  So often I had dove into the art work of Luis Royo, whose mythical perception of that 'not so real' era is best found there.  I appreciate the notion of one barbarian hordes, the princess who dabbles in witchery, the queen who sleeps with a demon, and the aged knight who picks up his sword once more and challenges a great evil that threatens his homeland.  These are the scenes that make me think of fantasy...


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## Michael (May 17, 2005)

I like to see mythical backgrounds that are different from Western, although Western is cool too when it's done well.  I also like the idea of creating new mythologies.  For "The Defiler's Rule" (although I've changed the title), I created a completely fictional people with similar cultural ideas.  Soem of the culture varies from clan to clan, but they are supposed to be all recognizably "Hunjan."  Then I also created a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses for the Hunjan people.  The pantheon has similarities to other myths but I also tried to vary it as much as possible.


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## evanescentdream (May 22, 2005)

The ideal concept of fantasy? Not an easy question to answer.

The reason I say this is because there is no singular form of fantasy in literature today. There are those that are strictly Tolkienesque fiction, and there are those that play with the border of alternative genres. 

But fantasy, I think (or at least epic fantasy), requires three main elements to be classified as such:

1. There must be a being, human or otherwise, who in the very beginnings has good intentions. Focused on benefiting his fellows, this being acquires power ("power" is the general term for a number of things: command over an army, a succesful political career, great strength, or even the Lord of the Rings motif "magic"), which is used initially to further his goals. Eventually the ego and desires of the being lead to his undoing, and his power give him an assumed title of ruler or God.

2. There must be a quest or journey, impossible to accomplish, that gradually ends in the defeat of the being. The journey may be either long or short, and on this journey a great band may travel together or a lone individual may tread the path. Nevertheless, the difficulty of the quest tests the heart of the heroes and leads to several plot complications vital to the destination, for good or ill.

3. Finally there must be a hero or heroes that undertake the perilous trek. Usually this person is common and ordinary or perhaps seemingly weak and useless. But the heart and valor of this hero is eventually revealed and he is accepted by his peers, and he resolves the main conflict by defeating the great being.


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## robert_red (Nov 18, 2007)

As I read through the posts on this topic I noticed how many people were saying that the Middle Ages as a setting is getting tired and old. In my opinion, this is untrue. What is getting tired and old is the use of so many common plot devices involving the middle ages. If an author were to base a story in the Middle Ages but have a completely original plot, I highly doubt that we would think it tired and unoriginal. It is not the setting itself that gets old, in my opinion, but the overused, cliched plots. 

I am planning on writing a book based in a world that is semi-medieval but with a completely different government and economy. My goal for the book is to have an original plot, magic system, government etc. So far it is like no other book I've read. Unfortunately, there may be several downsides to this. For instance, the magic system is original but quite abstract. Also, the religious beliefs in the book would be difficult for those who are not open to new or abstract ideas to grasp. See, the thing that is difficult about writing original fantasy is that those readers who are not open to such a difference will not be able to understand entirely new concepts.


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## Rosemary (Nov 24, 2007)

I must admit to being a little tired of medieval settings, such as that used by George R.R. Martins' parts of his books.

I wish you luck with your book robert_red, although I think you may be surprised at how many of us are more than happy to read and understand new concepts.


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## ice.monkey (Nov 26, 2007)

Having read the whole of this thread I think the publishing industry is missing a point about "original" fantasy.

I've been working on a fantasy project for some years now and am constantly surprised at the number of people I meet that used to be into fantasy but no longer are. And the common reason they no longer read fantasy is because it became 'samey' to them. They unfortunately never found fantasy beyond the constant rewrites of lotr and if they did, they unfortunately encountered something they didn't like.

So I've come to the conclusion that the publishing industry eventually turns people away from the genre as a result of being obsessed with their 'standard' of what people want. And there's no doubt that people want it but once they've had enough of it many 'move on' as a result of not finding anything new to fuel their imaginations.

It's bizarre as the fantasy available in children's books is vast and eclectic.

Aesop's Fables
Chronicles of Narnia
Wind in the Willows
Alice in Wonderland
Peter Pan
Harry Potter
the classic Fairy Tales
The Hobbit
Rupert the Bear

To name just a few that came to me right this instant.

So why are we forced to read a narrower range of fantasy as we grow older? Does the majority really want to read the same type? I don't think so. I think that as we grow older we encounter the main-stream Tolkienesque / Medieval fantasy and fall in love with it. But as children we fell in love with any form of fantasy. So surely it'd be true that we'd love more variety.

The Publisher's keep telling us that the main-stream fantasy is what people want because the majority of people they survey have fallen in love with it and are in their honeymoon period with it. So the Publishers keep shoving the same kind of fantasy at them but don't realise that after a while these same individuals actually do want something different but as there's not much (traditionally) choice they move away from the genre. And the Publishers survey and catch the next wave falling in love with main-stream fantasy but miss those who've 'moved on' and so believe that all we want is more of the same. So it's self-fulfilling. What they never find out is that they also turn people away from fantasy by being obsessed with the main-stream.

But because they're making enough money by shoving out the same niche fantasy they'll just keep doing it.

As to what I like in fantasy. Originality. But it's got to tell a good story with good characters. Character and story is more important than setting.


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## Karn Maeshalanadae (Dec 2, 2007)

I have to say, in my opinion, both extremist sides are out of it. No offense...

First off, the sort of fantasy that Sony turned Final Fantasy into (The Al Bhed's machina in the X series coming to mind) doesn't sit all that well with me.

Neither, for that matter, does the cliched classic D&D, LotR type anymore. That, too, has grown stale and oppressive. Always the same.

As far as originality goes, something along the lines of Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series-great toss, own and read all seven volumes-is a wondrous refreshment from the knight-on-noble-steed variety.

Even that side has a drawback, though...the real world.

A true fantasy, I think, would have a little bit of everything. Original creatures/races, original world, classic magic...just no futuristic technology. Bleh. Leave that to Sci-Fi.


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## Connavar (Dec 2, 2007)

I want a good yarn with interesting character, the world might be realistic or totaly fantastic it doesnt matter.  Very low on magic.  A story where there isnt much difference from the villains and the heroes except their acts in another word i want gray characters.  A simply yarn in fantasy, no extremly complex political fantasy that seem to dominate the genre these .  Very few of those i can like.

No cliche white and black story where the heroes are so shiny and the villains so ugly and monstrous.


If you have ever read DG you know what im describing 

My ideal hero in fantasy is Shannow/Druss/Rek like. Very humane,makes mistakes. Anti-hero really.  Only their actions that do some good make them different from the villain.

I dislike the idea of the shining knight in white armour.


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## Urien (Dec 2, 2007)

That's tough.

I love the new worlds/lands well defined and grounded in a believable history. To work for me they have to project a notion of awe and mystery. Gormenghast and LOTR are archetypes of how this can be done well. In some repsects the stars of these books are Middle Earth and Gormenghast Castle.

On top of this one should add the conflicted interesting major players on a very well defined character arc. The classic here is, I think, Thomas Covenant. Though Mervyn Peake's, Steerpike is an excellent bad guy. I think Erikson, Mieville and Martin also score well here. Here we should include naming conventions, for me nobody beats or will ever beat Tolkien, the very names of people and places are evocative.

A central clear story and plot attracts me. LOTR has that in spades, the stakes are high, the task is clear. Stephen King's Dark Tower also has a very good central theme, save the tower, save the worlds. A little ambiguity is fine, but the hook has to be there. This is where I lose a little sympathy with Erikson and Martin. The former because it is too ambiguous as to what is going on and why, and the latter because he seems to have forgotten or changed what his central theme was. I think Gemmell scores very well on plot drive and focus.

Dialogue is very important. I like the simple truism's of Gemmell's characters, I enjoy the humour and language in Erikson and Martin. This is where Tolkien and Donaldson often fall down.

I prefer relatively simple sentence structures that build to complexity, my favourite for this is Cormac McCarthy, not strictly a speculative fiction writer, though The Road and Blood Meridien are sci fi and a dark allegorical fantasy. 

So a believeable elegantly named world, a rousing clear plot, troubled characters with a clear believable and internally consistent character arc and complexity from simplicity.


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## Toby Frost (Mar 13, 2009)

Well said. 

Strange as it may sound, good fantasy has to be credible. Credible world, solid 3D characters defined by more than job or race, consistent interior logic. It doesn't matter how high or low fantasy the world is, it just has to ring true. But credibility means more than "dark", "no magic", "complicated plot" or "grisly rape scene to show this book means business"; it's about events and actions having the correct consequences. 

Also, good writing. If the writing's rubbish so is the book, simple as that. The ideas may be lovely, but it will still fail as a book if it's terribly written.

And one more thing: can we ditch the boy-becomes-king and the find-the-magic-thingy plots? They are beginning to feel a bit overdone.


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## chopper (Mar 13, 2009)

aw, but i'm having too much fun with the vengeful-rightful-heir-seeks-justice trope! more seriously, i agree with mostly everything above: character, character, character, all the time.


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## K. Riehl (Mar 14, 2009)

My ideal would include non-standard main character's with non-standard goals. And, most importantly, a magic system that has structure/cost/limits. It quickly becomes boring when the the power used is unlimited and the author has to search for ever greater villains to vanquish.
Think Wheel of Time for the type where the development of the main character led to the destruction of the main villains by book 5, damn 7 books to go, lets bring some bad guys back from the dead under new names. It's too bad as I remember chat rooms with college professors analyzing WOT; all long gone as the series turned into mush.
The best example of non-standard Fantasy characters that I have read recently would be _Curse of Chalion, Paladin of Souls, The Hallowed Hunt_ by Lois Bujold.


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## Sargeant_Fox (Mar 20, 2009)

My favorite fantasy takes place in the modern, urban world, and involves ordinary people coming into contact with extraordinary phenomenon. The characters are mostly unimportant and exist to (fail to) understand and describe the phenomenon. The finest example I can give of this is Jorge Luis Borges' short-stories.


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