# Jesus Camp



## Winters_Sorrow (Sep 29, 2006)

Well, I'm not sure what kind of coverage this documentary film is getting in the States. This is the first I've heard of it. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1883730,00.html


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## j d worthington (Sep 29, 2006)

I have seen mention of it, but haven't kept up with it, frankly. I'm afraid I was too much exposed to this sort of thing growing up to have any tolerance for such; it tends to rasp nerves very badly with me....


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## Foxbat (Sep 29, 2006)

There are some pretty extreme comments from the Pastor in this article. No wonder the world is in such a state with nutters like this on the loose.


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## Joel007 (Sep 29, 2006)

Interesting. I like the equation of christianity to warfare. Too bad some of them don't realize that the enemy aren't humans.


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## Carolyn Hill (Sep 29, 2006)

Jon Stewart mentioned that documentary on _The Daily Show_.  Scary.  (He said funny things about it, but it still is scary.)


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## ScottSF (Oct 1, 2006)

I think if the educational system in the US weren't so deplorable and more people learned to think critically in school they would be less likely to fall for this sort of thing.  Hopefully reason is slowly winning out over religion and these are just the desperate actions of people trying to defend a worldview that is quickly loosing relevance.


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## mosaix (Oct 1, 2006)

On the one hand I want to ignore it because it makes me so mad and tense, but on the other hand I want to stand up to it because it shouldn't be ignored.


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## j d worthington (Oct 1, 2006)

ScottSF said:
			
		

> I think if the educational system in the US weren't so deplorable and more people learned to think critically in school they would be less likely to fall for this sort of thing. Hopefully reason is slowly winning out over religion and these are just the desperate actions of people trying to defend a worldview that is quickly loosing relevance.


 
Scott, I hate to tell you this, but the rise in popularity of evangelical religions in the U.S. is by no means slowing; and the overall rise in acceptance of pseudoscientific and muddily-mystical views _as being as valid as scientific knowledge for our understanding of the basics of reality_ (rather than a personal view of the world) indicates anything but the success of reason. No, there are too many restraints put on scientific education, and they are increasing ... look at the number of states that have reintroduced Creationism (or Intelligent Design, its ******* spawn) in their educational programs as being on the same footing scientifically as evolution. While I agree that this is a desperate reaction response, I'm afraid that it is something that has enormous support from the majority of the populace; look at the figures for the number of even highly-educated people who hold to various forms of pseudoscientific or supernatural beliefs that fly in the face of all scientific evidence. People, in general, simply _don't reason_ -- they react _emotionally_, not _rationally_. Then they rationalize their behavior to give it the spurious appearance of reasoned thinking. "Man is not a rational animal, he is a _rationalizing _animal." While I'm all for people having that "spiritual" or "mystical" side to their nature (I've got a fair degree of it myself, and it can add a lot of richness to the experience of life), I'm afraid that the sort of religious zealotry we're seeing today is very much a retreat from the Enlightenment, more than anything else.

One of my favorite quotes is the following, from H. P. Lovecraft, who sums up this trend quite well, I think:

"We life on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity.... The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."

I'm afraid that what we're seeing is the reaction to the revelations science has made, and the havoc wrought with belief systems we've held for millennia. The final adjustment and acceptance of such -- if it happens at all -- is likely to be a long time in coming.


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## dustinzgirl (Oct 1, 2006)

After what I saw on Politically Incorrect with Bill Mar (?) I won't be watching it. I only saw a short clip, but this particular clip was encouraging children to be warriors for god and fight people who do not believe the same as they do, which is NOT what a Christian, following the new testament, should be preaching, and if they are, then they are not a true christian, since Christians should follow the doctrine of Christ, which does NOT TELL US TO HURT OTHER PEOPLE.


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## Ozymandias (Oct 1, 2006)

My fascistic step-father sent my little brother away to one of those camps. He came back spouting bible verses. Which ain't a bad thing, really, but most of those camps preach religous intolerance and at he core don't even really seem Christian. I.e. they tend to depart radically from (or at least distort) Christ's teachings of love and tolerance. Christ was the original hippie.


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## jackokent (Oct 1, 2006)

I find this terrifying. Before I am accused of attacking religion I must stress I was brought up a Christian. However, one of the tennents of that and other faiths I imagine (I am not an expert) is unquestioning belief. I personnaly find that a scarey concept anyway. What I find more scarey is when this unquestioning principal is then applied to children and manipulated by extreemly clever and credible people. This is not religion, this is brain washing. In this way children can be turned in to basically anything. It just so happens to be in the name of religion, but my view is that at this stage religion is largely irrelivant, it might as well be in the name of the banana for all the religious relevence it holds. These people have a clear agenda of being at the top of the control tree by any means possible.  Religion has given them an acceptable face and supplied them with that means.

You've heard the saying "Give me the child and I will give me the man". Well who on earth are we giving our children to now?..... dangerous, reactionary, nutters it seems.


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## j d worthington (Oct 1, 2006)

While we tend to avoid religious discussions here to avoid stepping on toes, I think the following addresses this one rather well. It's another quote from one of Lovecraft's letters, and can be found on Volume III of the *Selected Letters*, pp. 390-91:

"Religionists openly give away the fakery of their position when they insist on crippling children's emotions with specialized suggestion anterior to the development of a genuine critical faculty. We all know that _any_ emotional bias -- irrespective of truth or falsity -- can be implanted by suggestion in the emotions of the young, hence the inherited traditions of an orthodox community are absolutely without evidential value regarding the real _is-or-isn'tness_ of things.... If religion were true, its followers would not try to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity; but would merely insist on their unbending quest for _truth_, irrespective of artificial backgrounds or practical consequences. With such an honest and inflexible _openness to evidence_, they could not fail to receive any _real truth_ which might be manifesting itself around them. The fact that religionists do _not_ follow this honourable course, but cheat at their game by invoking juvenile quasi-hypnosis, is enough to destroy their pretensions in my eyes even if their absurdity were not manifest in every other direction."


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## steve12553 (Oct 1, 2006)

dustinzgirl said:
			
		

> After what I saw on Politically Incorrect with Bill Mar (?) I won't be watching it. I only saw a short clip, but this particular clip was encouraging children to be warriors for god and fight people who do not believe the same as they do, which is NOT what a Christian, following the new testament, should be preaching, and if they are, then they are not a true christian, since Christians should follow the doctrine of Christ, which does NOT TELL US TO HURT OTHER PEOPLE.


 
Most major ideologies, at their core, tell us not to hurt other people. Jesus specifically said turn the other cheek and forgive others "seventy times seven" (Which I suspect was the equivalant of infinity back then). In this case, as so many others, religion is not the cause, but rather the excuse. There are ulterior motives here and they're not pretty.


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## Jack (Oct 1, 2006)

E gads thats horrific!  
Ah, viruses of the mind all - Authority as a reason to believe in something, means that you are told to believe it e.g. It was only in 1950 that Catholic's were told by the pope that Mary's body did indeed shoot of to heaven, in other words the pope said it was true and that was that. Just in the same way Ayatollahs ask their followers to go and blow themselves up, and they do, because they were told too. Then you have tradition and revelation, none are good reasons to believe in any of it - Tradition because if it was untrue then, its still untrue now. Maybe that is why so many believe in the lie, because they were told to do so, say from a very young age and different religions are just different lies being told over and over again to different groups of children, much like most children believing in the tooth fairy?
How to beat it is easy - Next time someone tells you something and declares it as truth. Ask what true life evidence there is to support it? If they cannot give a good answer or it sounds made up, then they are probably lying. Teach your population that over and over again through school and you may stop it.
In any event they should do nasty things to the people that made this.


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## dustinzgirl (Oct 1, 2006)

steve12553 said:
			
		

> Most major ideologies, at their core, tell us not to hurt other people. Jesus specifically said turn the other cheek and forgive others "seventy times seven" (Which I suspect was the equivalant of infinity back then). In this case, as so many others, religion is not the cause, but rather the excuse. There are ulterior motives here and they're not pretty.


THANK YOU


The problem is not Christian Faith.

The problem is Christian Politics.

Christian Politicians (and they are out there---the Christian Coalition EVIL!!) Take only what they want from the bible and they use it for self serving reasons. They make me ill.

That does not mean that one should not find faith in the words written in Red anyways.

If you are a Christian, you should focus on the doctrines of the New Testament. No where does it say to kill, to hate gay people, to act better than others----Don't forget, Jesus washed feet too.

People forget that the OLD TESTAMENT is a HISTORY and the NEW TESTAMENT is the Christian guide.

IN GENERAL

Bible camps are awesome. I went to several as a kid, I see nothing wrong with quoting the bible, personally. My kids already can. To not learn from christianity, judaism, muslim, buddhism, and so on is to remain ignorant of your fellow man and of yourself. I like my kids knowing thier bible. I like sending them to bible camp because I know those people, my great grandparents built the church. There are some really fun and interesting bible camps, that first do not preach fire and brimstone to little kids, and second do not preach that being a warrior is good. Because any Christian knows that the definition of Christian is to follow Christ. Christ never fought anybody.





PPS:

I am, as my darling hubby puts it, a believer. Its in my nature. I believe that there are good and evil forces. I believe that spells can be cast and that they can effect people. I believe that unicorns, giants, fairies and dwarves once walked our earth. I pretty much beleive everything I read. 

Most of all though, I have faith that there is a God, that there is a world for our souls after this.


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## Jack (Oct 1, 2006)

dustinz, I've said it once so I'll so it again - You are a good person


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## jackokent (Oct 1, 2006)

I agree Dustinz is a good person, but I don't believe in good and evil, or an afterlife, does that make me a bad one?


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## Jack (Oct 1, 2006)

No, it just means she is a good person, I can like a person yet disbelieve totally in their faith, it's quite easy to do in Dustinz part as she is a good person.
People are good and bad no matter what they believe or have faith in, so saying do you believe you are a bad one Jacko? So far I would say no, but you can never be sure  (So need an evil smilies sigh)


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## dustinzgirl (Oct 1, 2006)

jackokent said:
			
		

> I agree Dustinz is a good person, but I don't believe in good and evil, or an afterlife, does that make me a bad one?


Belief does not make a person good or bad. How they act on that belief does. While I think completely different from my hubby, he is an athiest and believes in nothing. Thats fine, everyone chooses thier own path. I don't know if I am a good person, but thank you for saying I am.


PS: Let me explain that further. I am a strong supporter of free-will, the one gift that humanity has, the ability to think and chose. Your path and your choices are different from mine, but that does not make either of us a good or bad person.


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## littlemissattitude (Oct 1, 2006)

dustinzgirl said:
			
		

> The problem is not Christian Faith.
> 
> The problem is Christian Politics.
> 
> Christian Politicians (and they are out there---the Christian Coalition EVIL!!) Take only what they want from the bible and they use it for self serving reasons.



Absolutely, dustinzgirl.  Which is why I’m comfortable discussing this here even though we don’t do religion.  It isn’t about religion; religion is just an excuse that certain people use to try to gain power and influence (not to mention wealth).  It happens here in the States all the time at the highest levels of government as well as in local politics, and I’m sure it happens in other religions and in other parts of the world as well.

If you’re interested in the phenomenon, and in how far some of these folks, both in the pulpit and in public office, are willing to go to try to take power, I would recommend that you read _Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism_, by Michelle Goldberg.  Fascinating, frightening book.  It starts out by discussing an organization called Generation Joshua, which aims to get home schooled Christian children involved in right-wing politics and so seems to have a lot in common with the camp that is shown in _Jesus Camp_.


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