# SFF as "bad literature"



## seerdon (Aug 30, 2004)

Hello. I'm new here, and I'd like to get something off my chest/start a debate/garner support etc. It really annoys me when I tell people that I enjoy reading science fiction and fantasy, and they tell me that it is ridiculous, or fake, or childish, or pointless, or poo or wee or something. Many people seem to be of the opinion that anything requiring you to use your imagination the slightest bit is bad literature and not worth the paper it is written on. This is surely not the case - take the Lord of the Rings for example, a recognised classic and probably the "original" fantasy novel. I tell people that I enjoy reading SFF because it is a form of escapism, and they scoff - come back to the real world, they tell me, stop daydreaming! Bloomin' heck. What is wrong with sitting in a comfy chair of an evening and drifting off to another world? What do people think? Please reply to me... I generally have bad experiences on forums 

Thanks
Tom


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## Brian G Turner (Aug 30, 2004)

Hi Tom, and welcome to the chronicles-network. 

 Yep - exactly right - tell someone you like science fiction and/or fantasy and you can be easily looked down upon - but how the masses love up the Tolkien movies and Star Wars!!


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## Princess Ivy (Aug 31, 2004)

SFF has had the reputation of being 'Penny Dreadful', but nowadays with series like StarTrek and movies like StarWars that is becomming more of a thing of the past. Besides which, I have always thought it much easier to write about this world, than be creative enough to envisiage a completely new one, as so many SFF writers do. 

And SFF is now being taught in schools as writers such as Orwell and Silverberg are being singled out for their vision of alternate futures and destinies. It is becoming more and more accepted in modern society. 

However there will always be doubters. To them I thumb my nose. I don't bother to talk to them, as they have closed and sealed little minds and will never be any more than they are. Stick to places with people who can share your visions and interests. 

BTW, welcome here, I also came here fresh from a bad experience at another forum, and have found most of the people here to be pleasant.
(Remembers Belgium and stomps off muttering under breath)


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## dwndrgn (Aug 31, 2004)

I got sick and tired of that lame, 'look-down-your-nose' attitude very early in my reading career and have been known to be a slightly rude to people who tell me what I'm reading is poo (by the way that sentence made me giggle, and I needed it so I'm borrowing if you don't mind  ).  I just tell them if I feel inclined to put myself to sleep, I'll pick up what they consider 'literature' and if I feel like engaging my mind and using my imagination I'll choose something with more substance, wit, intelligence and foresight - and hold up whatever book I happen to be reading.  I normally wouldn't put down what other people are reading but such close-mindedness makes me see red.  What really gets my goat is when they admit they've never read any of it.  I've not read War and Peace so I'd never say it was poo!  If I read it and thought it was poo, then I'd say so.

Anyway, I'll calm down in a minute - just ignore me.  I'm sure you'll find the members here to be opinionated, pithy, kind, pugnacious and polite all at the same time.  We like to agree to disagree and enjoy a good argument for chuckles.  Welcome, pull up that comfy chair, open your book and open your mind...


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## Princess Ivy (Aug 31, 2004)

dwndrgn said:
			
		

> I'll pick up what they consider 'literature' and if I feel like engaging my mind and using my imagination I'll choose something with more substance, wit, intelligence and foresight - and hold up whatever book I happen to be reading. I normally wouldn't put down what other people are reading but such close-mindedness makes me see red.


The reaction that I get lately is 'Is it any good' and a disdainful look.  To which I always want to reply, no, but I knew you would ask, and I wanted to screw with your mind. HEH HEH


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## dwndrgn (Aug 31, 2004)

Princess Ivy said:
			
		

> The reaction that I get lately is 'Is it any good' and a disdainful look. To which I always want to reply, no, but I knew you would ask, and I wanted to screw with your mind. HEH HEH


Is it any good?  What kind of question is that?  Might as well ask if you are actually reading or just putting people on by sitting there absorbed for hours.
That reminds me of a popular comedian who wants to give signs to stupid people that say 'I'm an idiot'.  Mostly for asking dumb questions like you just related.  Here's an example, his car is broken down on the side of the road, hood up, smoke billowing from the radiator...man in another car stops and asks "Car broke down?" (DUH!) so he says.."Nope, just stopped to let the car have a smoke.  Here's your sign..."

It also reminds me of something else people (mostly non-readers) do that annoy me.  Here I am, enjoying my brief lunch break with a good book and they want to sit down and ask a million questions and basically have you synopsise (is that a word?) it.  Keeping you from actually reading it.  Ok, I'll hush now.  Got to go to bed anyway, I've got to get up at the crack of dawn tomorrow for work.  Ta ta.


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## polymorphikos (Aug 31, 2004)

A lot of sad people actually find it difficult to read sf, which makes me laugh. Something to do with an inability to switch your mind over to such a bizzare wavelength. And a lot of people might vilify "A Fire Upon the Deep" for example, and then go off and deeply enjoy the Count of Monte Cristo or a Wilbur Smith book, calling Vinge's book escapist or stupid. I love unwitting hypocrites.


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## erickad71 (Aug 31, 2004)

What really gets me are the people who say " you actually _like_ to read?" I can not understand how someone can go through life and not read for pure pleasure. 

...and Hi seerdon, welcome to our comfy little forum.


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## littlemissattitude (Aug 31, 2004)

First of all, seerdon, welcome to the forum.

Personally, I think the proper response to anyone who thinks sf/fantasy is "bad literature" is to tell them I'm sorry that they never managed to grow an imagination. Like dwndrgn, I'm not really shy anymore about letting people know that their opinion of my reading material isn't, well, material to my well-being. Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky, but I just got very tired a long time ago of people insulting my tastes in reading (and films, and music, and so on).

And ericka...I agree with you completely. I've gotten that "you actually _like_ to read" reaction ever since I was a wee bairn (see what reading "Outlander" does to me ). I'm likely to answer back, "Don't _you_? I'm sorry." The ones who really irk me are the ones who are proud of the fact that they don't read. Like that's a good thing, or something.  Sheesh.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Aug 31, 2004)

If it entertains you and makes you think, it's good. It's a sorry mistake to dismiss any genre, really. Althhough sf/f and 'serious' lit are my mainstays, I have read amazing works of mystery fiction, and even a few really good westerns. For all I know there are literary roses blossoming unseen in the wilderness of romance novels. Snobbery should be based on literary merit not genre. Oh, and, Cheers and welcome aboard, seerdon!


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## dwndrgn (Aug 31, 2004)

I agree wholeheartedly JP.  I mean, just because I found Tess of the D'Urbervilles to be the dullest thing ever, doesn't mean that all classics are bad.  As for merit in romance, there is some.  Not a lot mind you but some  .  I've read quite a bit of it over the years and found some real gems amid the dross.  I would mention Gabaldon's Outlander here but I don't really consider it a romance - more of a historical fantasy adventure.  Oops, looks like I mentioned it after all...no matter, the more publicity it gets the better I say.  I think it should be required reading   but I'm a bit prejudiced


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## seerdon (Aug 31, 2004)

Thankyou all very much for your responses. I agree with what I, Brian said about the masses eating up LoTR and SW films, but ask them to read the original books and you're instantly an obsessed freak. Films, whilst being greatly enjoyable, detract from one's imagination by giving you what you would otherwise have to conjure up in your mind. Plus, they only offer one director's interpretation.

Out of interest, are people here mainly from the US, or the UK, or elsewhere?

Tom


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Aug 31, 2004)

We're from all over. Nearly - I just realised we don't seem to have members from South America yet.


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## Princess Ivy (Aug 31, 2004)

UK, but originaly from SA


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## erickad71 (Aug 31, 2004)

littlemissattitude said:
			
		

> And ericka...I agree with you completely. I've gotten that "you actually _like_ to read" reaction ever since I was a wee bairn (see what reading "Outlander" does to me ).


 
I know exactly what you mean! I went around for quite a while trying not to talk like that so people wouldn't think I was completely off my rocker! But, I usually can't help but talk like that in my head...


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## Foxbat (Aug 31, 2004)

Like the majority here, I detest the snobbery that hangs over SFF.

I've always believed that there is no such thing as bad music - just bad musicians. The same applies to literature. If somebody can write well, it doesn't really matter what genre that person decides to write - it will be written well - be it SF Fantasy, Crime or whatever. 

It's as  simple as that


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## seerdon (Aug 31, 2004)

But some writers are surely more suited to one genre than another? I can't imagine authors who write books like The Mysterious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime being capable of writing something like Lord of the Rings, and vice versa.


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## Foxbat (Aug 31, 2004)

> But some writers are surely more suited to one genre than another?



Probably. But I believe it is much easier for a good writer to successfully switch genres than a bad one. Stephen Donaldson, for example, writes crime fiction under a pseudonym (and quite successfully too) as well as fantasy under his own name. 
He can do this quite simply because he is a good writer.


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## Lucifer (Oct 28, 2004)

Genre fiction has always been marginalized and put in a ghetto.  It sucks when someone acts interested in what you're reading, and when you try to explain, they get all wide-eyed and slowly back away.

Then there's the other kind of prejudice, the SF/F snobs who think you know nothing of the genre if you read popular authors like Martin and Jordan.  I like the obscure stuff and I like the popular things.  Ooh!  Or the folks who are so full of themselves because they know LOTR word-for-word, but think that I'm slime for indulging in Dragonlance novels.  Or when the serious-fantasy folks hate on the comedic-fantasy folks.  It's too small of a genre for people to be so narrow minded.

Try being a 25-year-old Harry Potter freak who adores the Malfoys.  I have dolls, action figures, and a poster in my office at work, and some people won't even come in . . .

I also write fantasy, and it's impossible for my local friends to read because they lack the ability to suspend their disbelief.  That's the first rule of reading fantasy, the first agreement between the author and the reader: "Promise me a new world and I promise to try and believe in it."

Lucifer


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