# The use of prophecy in fantasy



## asdar

I know I'm attacking very near the heart of the fantasy genre, but I hate the use of true prophecy in fantasy.

I find that Prophecy is often used as a driving factor in the story, a sort of motivation to the writer, an outline of where everything should go. Some authors use spot prophecies, but on a lesser scale it seems the same thing to me. It seems a short cut to avoiding logical development in characters and storyline.

I find that the use often is a sign of a story lacking in depth and reason. The characters will do things to either fulfill or reject the prophecy instead of doing things for power or gold or some other sensible motivating factor.

"The world will end if this prophecy...," Choice A) comes true, or B) doesn't come true.

The whole issue boils down to two issues for me. The first is the concept of fate versus choice and the second is the entire time travel paradox. If the future is set and the prophecy will come true then what are all the choices along the way for?


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## cornelius

the prophecy in my writings is more linked to magic and such. The three heroes have to find a set of books, with which they can revive the fainting magic in the world. This is but a start, they have to unite all races in peace to restore the full Craft. ( this is but a very rough sketch of the prophecy)
it's a bit like the Nerevar cult in morrowind, for those who are more familiar with that


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## kyektulu

*I find alot of fantasy stories (melanie rawn's work is one example) incorperate elements from long gone civilisations and alot of these had thier cultures completely immersed around prophicies and fables. So I come to expect these in a book when I read writing from such an author.
To make phrophicies and things work I think the writer should really try to use them in the background of a novel, in a charecter belief system and culture... 
However I dont mind reading books based around them after all im reading a fantasy book and basicly in a persons imagination anything goes... *


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## kyektulu

*I hope that made sense. 
*


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## dwndrgn

I've seen prophecies used well (Goodkind's SOT) and poorly ~ um, can't think of one at the moment, but I've seen them.  I don't have anything against them but nor do I have a strong liking of them either.  They're just another plot device that can be done well or done poorly.  Whatever works for the story is ok for me.


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## asdar

It made sense to me Kyektulu.

I can't begin to name the number of good books I've read with prophecies. It's just recently that I've come to dread them. I don't want to throw the books out, I just find that in most cases the prophecy becomes the story.

If I ever start to sound like I'm criticizing anyone personally please shut me down. I don't intend to and I'm supportive of anyone's ideas in the area of writing. 

In the case of a prophecy about the return of magic I see the direction and conclussion right from the start. I think it's entirely possible that the book will be enjoyable but I feel like I know the story already. I can come to love or hate the characters and sub plots along the way and still enjoy the book but the story is already told.

There are books that start with someone telling the story in retrospect. "I remember the tale of the heroes of the ....," followed by the story. To me this is parallel to a prophecy in that we know the narrator lives. 

In contrast would be a story where the people need to learn how to plow fields because they could no longer force the magic through the ground, followed by a special group or person that sets forth on a quest to figure it all out without any magical guidance of prophecy.

What I see as the value of prophecy is the revelation of clues throughout the book. It's like the foreshadow scenes in the movie The Ring where clues were given to the audience. Most of the enjoyment of the movie for me was travelling step by step with the investigative reporter to track down all of the clues.

The same is true for me in heavily prophecy influenced fantasy. I find more and more that when I see a fantasy I know within a hairs breath where the story will go. I find myself saying one of three things, "what will happen if the prophecy is fulfilled, what will happen if it's broken," or at best, "how can the given prophecy be twisted to mean something else."


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## Teresa Edgerton

Prophecies are, historically, very much a part of the magical world view.  But in that context they are usually highly ambiguous and make more sense after they come to pass than they did before, allowing people to misinterpret them and stumble around making the wrong choices in a thoroughly natural way, rather than proceed from point A to point B steadily and confidently following a prearranged agenda.

In other words, I like prophecies to fulfill the same role in a fantasy novel that they did traditionally:  to motivate characters and push them into action (or inaction) -- and as often as not the wrong action or inaction -- rather than working as a user's manual by which (if he follows it closely) a hero is assured of success.


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## Brian G Turner

Kelpie said:
			
		

> Prophecies are, historically, very much a part of the magical world view. But in that context they are usually highly ambiguous and make more sense after they come to pass than they did before, allowing people to misinterpret them and stumble around making the wrong choices in a thoroughly natural way, rather than proceed from point A to point B steadily and confidently following a prearranged agenda.


 
Quite agreed - prophecy can become a cliche if used too flippantly.

Additionally, with prophecy comes predetermination - which means that the character has no Free Will to make their own decisions, rendering the protagonists involved little more than puppets on strings, if not careful.

If you look at modern religious prophecies, they remain vague and ambiguous, and often claimed to apply at any given contemporary period - never fulfilled, but always "nearly there".

That in itself can serve as a fascinating vehicle for plot...


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## shaebedi

asdar said:


> It made sense to me Kyektulu.
> 
> I can't begin to name the number of good books I've read with prophecies. It's just recently that I've come to dread them. I don't want to throw the books out, I just find that in most cases the prophecy becomes the story.
> 
> If I ever start to sound like I'm criticizing anyone personally please shut me down. I don't intend to and I'm supportive of anyone's ideas in the area of writing.
> 
> In the case of a prophecy about the return of magic I see the direction and conclussion right from the start. I think it's entirely possible that the book will be enjoyable but I feel like I know the story already. I can come to love or hate the characters and sub plots along the way and still enjoy the book but the story is already told.
> 
> There are books that start with someone telling the story in retrospect. "I remember the tale of the heroes of the ....," followed by the story. To me this is parallel to a prophecy in that we know the narrator lives.
> 
> In contrast would be a story where the people need to learn how to plow fields because they could no longer force the magic through the ground, followed by a special group or person that sets forth on a quest to figure it all out without any magical guidance of prophecy.
> 
> What I see as the value of prophecy is the revelation of clues throughout the book. It's like the foreshadow scenes in the movie The Ring where clues were given to the audience. Most of the enjoyment of the movie for me was travelling step by step with the investigative reporter to track down all of the clues.
> 
> The same is true for me in heavily prophecy influenced fantasy. I find more and more that when I see a fantasy I know within a hairs breath where the story will go. I find myself saying one of three things, "what will happen if the prophecy is fulfilled, what will happen if it's broken," or at best, "how can the given prophecy be twisted to mean something else."



I know what you mean.  And I know its not a book but to give a wonderful story where prophecy worked very well and enhanced the story was the movie, bulletproof monk... the prophecy actually took on a twist which was refreshing to see.  Again prophecy is overused in most cases though and gives no room for depth of characters in the story because they are bound by the prophecy...


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## Stephen Palmer

One word: overdone!


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## HareBrain

It is overdone, and often used lazily by newcomers who seem to think it's as essential a part of the fantasy landscape as dragons. (Tolkien also uses it lazily in my view - there's nothing else about the (meta)physics of his world that suggests why Malbeth the Seer would have been able to look forward through time.)

However, I sometimes like cryptic prophesies, because you get the chance to solve the clues and spot the elements coming together before the characters do. And I quite like twists such as where the evil guys set out to thwart the prophecy and thus actually bring it about, etc. But then I'm easily pleased.


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## Toby Frost

I dislike prophesies for several reasons.

Firstly, they're overused (as HareBrain points out - our posts overlapped). They may have been part of the ancient/medieval mindset, but they've been done to death. If I know a fantasy novel contains a prophesy I'll be waiting for it to apply to a simple farmboy, picked by a long-bearded wizard, who will one day be the true king. I feel that fantasy writers should be willing, or at least able, to chuck out all of these old concepts and start afresh. If you want to include prophesies, or dragons, or whatever, fine - but there's no obligation to, especially if they bring nothing new or good to the work.

Secondly, they can weaken the drama. If the prophesy's there, it's either going to come true (cliche) or will/won't in some unexpected way (fast becoming a cliche, and a good way for a writer to show off how clever he think he is). I find it takes away a lot of the tension if the character is destined to succeed.

Thirdly, I don't like the whole idea of predestination. This is sheer personal preference, but I dislike the whole man-born-to-rule concept that underlies a lot of fantasy. I dislike the whole idea of the Great Man and his adoring band of followers (especially if said Great Man is spouting politics) and would rather see some (well-written) nobody do the difficult work.

That said, I have a friend who's writing a book about a prophesied hero who simply isn't up to the job, and because it's written well, it does work. But as much of the story is about the tricks and manipulation used by various people to make sure that the prophesy comes true in one way or another, or at least seems to. But that's a different sort of story, I suspect.


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## chopper

Teresa Edgerton said:


> In other words, I like prophecies to fulfill the same role in a fantasy novel that they did traditionally: to motivate characters and push them into action (or inaction) -- and as often as not the wrong action or inaction -- rather than working as a user's manual by which (if he follows it closely) a hero is assured of success.


 
yep, me too. a prophecy should not be the be-all and end-all of any fantasy story. instead, the author should use it to create/enable the conflicts that drive the characters of the story. if you look at Eddings, all of his stuff relies - almost too heavily - on prophecy and predestination.

now _curses_ - curses are much more fun...


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## Teresa Edgerton

Tobytwo said:


> I dislike the whole idea of the Great Man and his adoring band of followers (especially if said Great Man is spouting politics) and would rather see some (well-written) nobody do the difficult work.



Like, um ...



			
				Tobytwo said:
			
		

> a simple farmboy, picked by a long-bearded wizard, who will one day be the true king.



??????


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## Culhwch

Wow, talk about a blast from the past, Teresa reffered to as 'Kelpie'! 

I can't say that I think propehecies are overdone, but maybe I just don't read enough bad fantasy. I do like to stick to the good stuff, as a rule. The only example I'm coming up with is Martin's _Ice and Fire_, where I think the prophecies are done quite well - they are definitely of Harebrain's 'cryptic' category, leading the reader to draw clues together and look for signs everywhere, increasing the level of engagement with the story. Done like this, I don't have an issue with them. Personally, they're not something I've ever used in my own writing, but I wouldn't discount it in the future...


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## Hilarious Joke

I don't like prophecies. I find them boring and restrictive.


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## TheEndIsNigh

Hilarious Joke said:


> I don't like prophecies. I find them boring and restrictive.


 

Oiy!!!!!


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## Hilarious Joke

Ha ha ha, no offence!


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## Toby Frost

Ok, a small clarification there. 

As for the simple farmboy picked by a wizard to fulfil his destiny to be king, I have run three or four plot cliches together here. However, I do honestly think this basic plot has been overused (it also seems to hark back to an earlier age of fantasy writing, perhaps the 80s). In the hands of a good writer it could be handled well (Tad Williams, for instance, although Simon was a castle minion) but the problem of it now lacking freshness remains for me. 

I would say the same thing about prophesy. It would need to be very important, if not vital to the story for my tastes (rather than just tacked on for a more epic feel). As has been said, there are only a few outcomes from a prophesy, and all of them have potential to be (roughly) predicted. Although it can be interesting to see how the prophesy comes true, I think it's an easy way to write yourself, if not into an actual corner, at least into awkward territory. Overall, I don't think "No prophesies ever" but "use extremely carefully".

Incidentally I'd reccomend a book by Ian Mortimer called _A Time-traveller's Guide to the Middle Ages._ It has loads of good background and a section devoted to prophesy. It made me realise just how differently people thought back then: in particular, how closely the real and supernatural were linked in people's minds.


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## Moonbat

There is a prophecy in the Harry Potter series that seems to hint at a few possibilites but is ultimately as predictable as the sun rising.

There is a prophecy in the Starwars Hexology (is that the right word) that is misunderstood by the Jedi as being a good thing, but brings about the destruction of thousands of Jedi to balance with the 2 Sith. (although this balance is destroyed in the Return of the Jedi when 1 one the Sith dies (Palpatine) and the other converts.

In fact I don't know of any prophecies that don't come true, surely there are examples of such, like Nostradamus' and revelations?


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## thepaladin

The use of prophecy in fiction is by no means a monolithic subject. I don't think you can actually say "I like its use" or "I don't like its use". It's like saying I hate the use of wizards" or "I hate the use of Elves". It all depends on how it's done (and how well it's handled). In some stories the very point is that the idea of free will is moot (Vonnegut used this not in prophecy but in a "we've seen the future and you can't change it" venue). The story may be built around a futile struggle. Or the story may go just the other way, that no matter its source prophecies can fail. Or it might simply be window dressing and have little to do with the plot at all.

Prophecy works because it has been (and still is) a part of the human psyche. Otherwise we wouldn't have all the "hoopla" about 2012 or the writings (real and supposed) of Nostradamus. The History channel is running specials on prophecy and they've put on a series called the Nostradamus Effect. 

Prophecy can be a workable, usable plot device, or it can be an over used, trite crutch. It depends more on the writer and the story than the device.


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## Montero

Now, I know the Dark Lord of Derkholme is meant as a send-up of fantasy cliches - it is also a well written fantasy story.  I think prophecy is both used well, and sent up nicely, as part of that story.  
There are two oracles, side by side, one in a white building, the other in a black building.  The protaganists go in and ask a question, and get an answer on a slip of paper.  As I recall they ask the same question of both Oracles and get different answers.  The answers do ultimately help them - but in a roundabout and funny way.


In general terms, prophecy and the hidden king coming to save us seems to underlie and awful lot of traditions, both religious (Judaism and Christianity) and folk legends - thinking in particular of Arthur.  
Prophecy can be a tool that gives people hope that one day the problem will be fixed, so this gives them a boost to help them carry on with their currently miserable lives.  You don't look for a prophet unless your life is currently miserable, or you think the world is seriously flawed, IMHO.  After all, if you are happy, you wouldn't want the future to be different from the present.


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## HareBrain

As far as religious prophecy goes, my understanding is that the Old Testament prophets weren't predicting the future in the way seers do in fantasy stories, but were giving the people a visionary (not literal) image of what would result from their failure to return to the path of God. This type of prophecy seems almost entirely absent from fantasy fiction, for some reason. (Maybe you could even define fantasy fiction as something that collapses the metaphorical into the literal?)


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## Teresa Edgerton

First a disclaimer:

In my own writing none of my characters are hidden kings or saviors or heroes disguised as farm boys.  There _are_ farm boys and shepherd lads, and sons of fishermen who have been transformed by circumstances ... into soldiers and scouts and servants and temple acolytes, and they never turn out to be of exalted birth.  Although I do have to admit that there is one character of high birth and possibly high destiny who has been hidden away for her own protection, but she's a princess cunningly disguised as a princess, so I don't think she really counts.

That being said, I have no particular problem with the hero of humble or obscure origins.  As Montero points out, he has been around for a long, long time.  And the fantasy writers who have been giving him such a hard work-out since the 1980's are themselves working within a venerable tradition of mythology, folklore, and drama:  the prince raised by shepherds, the humble squire who pulls the sword from the stone, the child of high birth lost in the wilderness when her guardian exits pursued by a bear, the despised younger son mistaken all his life for a fool, the ordinary boy who slays giants, the common soldier who stays awake and follows the princesses to their mysterious midnight festivities when the sons of kings all fall asleep ... the list is endless, and we are all familiar with parts of it, so I won't belabor that point any further.  It's a theme that has been striking a deep chord in the human heart probably as long as there have been human hearts.  And I suspect that with most of the writers who employ it they aren't doing it because everyone _else_ does it, but because it works for them, too.

But when it comes to prophesies, I have to plead guilty.

Years ago, when I was writing my first series of books, I recklessly had a wise woman speak a prophesy at one point in the action.  To be fair to myself, I had already worked out how that prophesy would come about.  But by the time that I was writing the later books the story had wandered off in different directions, so that working out the prophesy became such a task, I promised myself I would never, _ever_, write a prophesy into one of my stories again.

Except, well, the series I am writing now pretty much revolves around a prophesy that is mentioned in the very first chapter.  Because for one reason or another, fortunately or unfortunately, that sort of thing strikes a chord in _my_ human heart, regardless of any challenges it might present to me as a writer.

And it seems to me that the one challenge we should always, as writers, accept, is to tell the stories that have the most powerful hold on our own imaginations.  If this is true, the only question remaining is: do we have, or can we develop, the skill to communicate those stories so that they have an equal power for our readers?


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## Toby Frost

As regards the farmboys issue, I agree, and I wouldn't want to give the impression that I think any book with such a character is inherently bad or anything like that. Like prophesy it has to be treated carefully, but there's a lot of concepts in SF and fantasy that are like that and also have the potential to work really well. Some of the first fantasy I read - excluding The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings - was by David Eddings, and I suppose it's made me personally wary of rewriting the Belgariad every time I reach for the keyboard!

Looking at Second Chance's paintings yesterday made me realise something about fantasy that I've not quite put into words before: for me, a great deal of the pleasure of fantasy - more so than SF, for no particular reason - comes from seeing amazing new things. And I think that sense of being awed, by places, people or adventures, is strengthened by having an inexperienced guide whose jaw will also drop as ours do. Also, and quite rightly, we do instinctively root for the underdog. There's certainly plenty of room for such people in fantasy from Tolkein to China Mieville.

But the more I think about this the more I think personal taste comes in. Prophesy doesn't strike that much of a chord with me, and would seem to me too difficult to use to be worth the fun/satisfaction I'd get out of doing it well. But it can be done well despite its dangers, and as you say, Teresa, a good writer can pass that sense of, er, chord-striking onto the readership. Except you've put it rather more eloquently than that: your last paragraph strikes me as spot-on.

(EDIT: just realised I didn't put the word "wouldn't" in the first sentence when I first posted this! Sometimes I am awed by my own idiocy.)


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## Hilarious Joke

I really enjoyed reading the above two posts.


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## The Judge

Teresa Edgerton said:


> Although I do have to admit that there is one character of high birth and possibly high destiny who has been hidden away for her own protection, but she's a princess cunningly disguised as a princess, so I don't think she really counts.


Hiding in plain sight - the best disguise there is!

I can't comment on prophecies in fiction, since I don't read enough fantasy, but I would like to echo Hilarious Joke in saying how much I'm enjoying everyone's opinions and the (as usual) very erudite and considered thoughts on display.


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## Stephen Palmer

The Judge said:


> Hiding in plain sight - the best disguise there is!


 
One name: C. Auguste Dupin.
One story: The Purloined Letter.

Say no more!


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## The Judge

I wasn't thinking of anything so highbrow!  Although funnily enough the semi-detective story I thought of did concern a letter - some valuable stamps have been pasted onto an ordinary envelope and left in the letter rack.


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## Interference

A badly used device is annoying and prophesy is probably one of those off-the-shelf devices that can be more annoying than some others.


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## thepaladin

Like I said it can go either way, any plot device can be handled poorly. The prophey device has been used poorly, but it has also made possible some of the seminal works in the genre. So, that's why I took the don't condemn the plot device itself position. I find more and more as I've read a greater number of books more and more (didn't I just say that?) plot devices become familiar. It's been a long time since a book or movie actually surprised me. It all seems to be in how well most story parts are put together.


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## Interference

... which is good news for James Cameron


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## Shadow Trooper

Haven't read anyone else's answers, so apologies if I am repeating anothers view but having seen this topic flash up on the forum for a couple of days now thought I'd give my view on it:

I like prophecy in fantasy!  I view it very much like the use of 'Legend'; it's there to assist and guide the reader/viewer in a certain direction, as a form of reference and if used effectively can add to the mystery/criticality/reverence etc etc etc of a story.

The real problem is if you depend on the legend or prophecy too much. After all, you're reading or watching the story unfold and it is 'that particular point/time' in the story that most interest is focused. Of course there will be interest in the past or possible future of the storyline but you don't want that past or future to weigh too heavily on your thoughts of the moment. IMO


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## Window Bar

Prophecy is a marvelous device, providing the author understands its use. 

In our real lives we are confronted with minor prophets daily: They exist in news shows, in advertisements and in conversations with everyone from hairdressers to TV repairmen. And in our real lives we _choose _whether or not to pay heed to any particular prophet. The act of heeding or not heeding a prophet says a great deal about the character who makes the decision.

So if a seven-foot-tall woman rides into town on a unicycle, proclaiming that sun will rise in the west tomorrow, and our protagonist bases his/her actions upon that prophecy, we have a very strange protagonist.

But if the seven-foot-tall prophetess claims that the jihadists will conquer unless our protagonist can win the heart of Bin Laden's fifteenth daughter ... whom we later find out is living in a Western city and is papa's favorite, AND has begun showing an interest in peace--well, that's a different kind of challenge altogether.


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## Hilarious Joke

> In our real lives we are confronted with minor prophets daily: They exist in news shows, in advertisements and in conversations with everyone from hairdressers to TV repairmen. And in our real lives we _choose _whether or not to pay heed to any particular prophet. The act of heeding or not heeding a prophet says a great deal about the character who makes the decision.


 
This seems off-topic to me; the discussion is about the use of prophecy as a literary device in fantasy. In fantasy, prophecies virtually always turn out to be true. This is supposed to foreshadow certain events while leaving enough scope for things to turn out unexpectedly (satisfying the prophecy in an unpredictable way) or to let the reader guess _how _that prophecy will turn out.

I guess I'm just a bit unsure what your point is here.


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## Teresa Edgerton

I agree with you, HJ, that prophesies in literature nearly always come true.  But it's the possibility that the prophet _might_ not be trustworthy that contributes to the suspense.  (Besides, of course, the whole ambiguity thing.)


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## biodroid

I reckon the use of prophecies in a novel like that of the farm boys destiny to become the greatest warrior-mage-king-of-the-world spoils it for me because to me that prophecy has already told me the path the farm boy is going to take, might as well read the last page and get it over with coz the hero is not going to die or their won't be any interesting plot twists.


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## Toby Frost

It reminds me of that detective show Columbo, where you always knew who did the murder from the start. The question was how Columbo would find the murderer out, not who the murderer was. I suppose the writing, and the plotting, counts for a lot here.

I can't say I like prophesy much as a storytelling technique, and it tends to take stories into an area of magic that doesn't much interest me, but I can't see that it could never work. Perhaps if less prophesies were about "X shall save/threaten the world" it might seem a bit fresher to me.


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## HareBrain

Tobytwo said:


> Perhaps if less prophesies were about "X shall save/threaten the world" it might seem a bit fresher to me.


 
I think "X shall fail to eat his whole bag of chips before they go cold" might find readers less than gripped ...


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## Menion

Somebody else might have mentioed this before, but, since I'm writing my first book/novel I have a prophecy in it, but it's not the tipical prophecy where you know whos who in it, its ike an obscure one, theres many people mentioned in it, example.... The Mountain, The Axe, The Savior.... but it doesnt say who is who.... wait I don't think thats understandable I'll try and explain better.

It could point to any of the characters, you would only find out when a certain part of it happened, if you get the meening, like The Savior could be any part of the 
mercenary band, it does'nt specifie who.

Is that a more likable kind of Prophecy?

A.T.P


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## Brian G Turner

Teresa Edgerton said:


> Like, um ...



Heh, he's referring to Raymond E Feist, I believe.


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## Boneman

I have no problem with prophecies at all - unless they take over the story and drive it to death, with all the characters endlessly mooning on about it (see the Sword of Truth... no, on second thoughts, don't. Just take my word for it!)

So, Menion, I agree that yours would be a good one to have, as a background kind of thing, but are there unseen forces at work that need the prophecy to be fulfilled? You only have to look at John the Baptist if you want an early prophecy, and the Second Coming is enshrined in Christian Belief. Blimey, the Nostradamus industry still fits his prohecies to any major event...

In any event, (and I'm not saying this is happening in your story) people look for signs in the stars, their religion, their palms, their tarot cards, the weather, and they tend to make an event fit the prophecy - so if one of the band say, kills a mountain lion with his bare hands (we'll say the lion leapt over him, and plunged to his death in a rocky ravine) ordinary people will leap upon it as the prohecy fulfilled, because they want it to be true. That doesn't detract from the prohecy, but it gives a writer the chance to wield a prophecy without it taking away the free will of the protagonists - something that too many writers do, when they get so caught up in prohecy. So your band could be fulfilling the prophecies, but not to the letter. 

Anyway good luck with it: go with your gut feeling and when it's finished you'll see if it works or not - can always re-write it umpteen times according to the prophecy: "No writer shall produce a first draft that is publishable immediately...."


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## Menion

Thanks Boneman


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## Teresa Edgerton

Boneman said:


> ... according to the prophecy: "No writer shall produce a first draft that is publishable immediately...."



Unless your initials are KJA, and I hear there is some doubt about that.


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## Montero

Thinking about prophecies that have been made - the obscure chuntering of Nostradamus, the Delphic oracles womblings and of course Cassandra (though I don't actually remember what she said precisely).  Anyway, in a fantasy book, if the prophecy is too obscure, so that it is only obvious after the event, I'd find it remarkably annoying.

(as an aside to the thread)
I do like the "Good Omens" take on prophecy though .  I won't repeat it here because of spoilers.
Also interested by the extensive use of Prophecy in sf - Babylon 5 with the Minbari and all the way through Battlestar Galactica (and if anyone follows up on this comment, please stay off details as not yet finished watching Series 5 on DVD - we're rationing ourselves on it.)  

This has now got me thinking - how would I write prophecy?


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## The Storyteller

I think the problem with prophecy is that it (like many fantasy clichés) is often used merely because it sounds cool or seems like the thing to do, and not because it actually enhances the story or is a necessity to further the plot.


Also, as others have mentioned, it often gives away the entire plot. If there is a prophecy that a particular person is destined to stop a great evil, you know what's going to happen. There may be interesting twists along the way, but ultimately, you know how it is going to end. And I also dislike the idea that the hero's choices and results are predestined.


That said, I think prophecy can be done well. It can add interest, intrigue, and character development (if done properly). But I think any author should think twice before using it, and make sure it's really important to the story and not just something that seems cool or fun. I used to be very quick to add prophecy to my story ideas because I like certain aspects of it, but I'm trying to be careful not to use it too liberally or without good cause.

On that note, I would love some advice on an idea I'm currently working on. I have been debating if any kind of prophecy should be involved with the main character. In this story, prophecy would not be an absolute thing, but would instead be a likely outcome for a character or event. In this case, the character would have had a prophecy that they are capable of becoming a very powerful sorcerer (bad guy) who will win an important war (which of course, would have very negative consequences for the "good guys"). She would not know about the prophecy at first (nor would the audience), but would discover it later on in the series.

The thing I like about it is that it would be a huge struggle for her. She is already feeling drawn towards dark magics, and the prophecy makes her afraid of what she could become, and makes other people suspicious and distrusting of her. She feels a constant need to 'fight her fate', and often fears she will give in because it has been 'prophesied'. But, she discovers that nothing is set in stone and ultimately, she would overcome her fear and "deny her fate". Until then, it would be something she really struggled with and greatly feared, which could help to develop her character and give her a personal challenge to overcome.


The thing I don't like about it is I don't want to rely on prophecy if it is not needed or be cliché. She could simply just be a very powerful mage tempted to use dark magic and struggling against the desire, and thus have the conflict without the prophecy. I feel this might take some of the gravity out of her struggles and some of the interest out of the story, but I don't know. Does the "fighting her fate" seem too cliché? Is there potential for some kind of prophecy, or better to have nothing at all?


Sorry for a long comment! Any feedback is appreciated.


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## Boneman

Prophecy is a well-worn trope that can add intrigue to a story, because fate and freewill become interesting phenomena, that may or may not be avoided/twisted. Since it is necessarily 'future-gazing' it can hamper or aid a hero, especially if they become aware of it - the choice to accept it or deny it (and try to change it) bring some interesting dilemmas for them on their journeys. If you introduce the struggle against her destiny, try and avoid the Luke Skywalker scenario, but a good battle to actually maintain one's 'self' allows for very interesting character development, and seeing a hero struggle (and overcoming one way or the other) can be very satisfying, as long as the hero has learnt something along the way, and we see that. 

Besides, prophecy is always open to interpretation, your hero could do something very unexpected, thinking she's avoiding the prophecy, only to find out she's actually fulfilled it...


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## vanye

chopper said:


> if you look at Eddings, all of his stuff relies - almost too heavily - on prophecy and predestination.


I think that *Eddings* is a very good example for this discussion, as in his _Belgariad_ and his _Malloreon_ for example, prophesy in a sense IS the story, a wonderful reflection on storytelling. There is even a meta-discussion of prophesy, words and meaning going on. And I think it is Belgarath who explains that prophesy is necessary because words give meaning to events.

However, it's been quite a few years since I read Eddings, so apologies if my memories are faulty.


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## Idealect

Most of the time a prophecy breaks internal consistency all by itself. How the hell are you supposed to figure out 10,000 years in advance how exactly things are going to work out? That means simulating the world to such a precise degree that the simulation is probably a real universe in its own right and it's inhabitants have conciousness, somehow using the entire precise state of the world as a starting point. If someone is powerful enough to cast a prophecy like that they are powerful enough to just annihilate all evil.

If a prophecy is a magical guarantee rather than a prediction, it's even more powerful: the war's won from before the start of the book because God cast a spell that would railroad the whole world  along the right tracks, maybe with a coinflip at the end, to make things seem interesting.


Luckily most prophecies remain ambiguous enough to be viewed as in universe predictions/manipulations/plans, or extremely powerful spells that influence things but are not guarantees and are plausible in universe spells. Failing that I have to just pretend they're not there if I want to enjoy a book with one.


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## End of Time

I prefer the way it became a major plot-point in the Dune novels, where the ability to see the future was as much a curse as a blessing and caused internal conflicts for those who managed to see the future unfold in their visions.

One of the biggest problems I have with prophecies in Fantasy is that they are always the same. It always hints at the protagonist being the hero or being the villain, leaving the whole thing wide open for the reader to wonder which of the two is going to end up becoming reality, and it feels as if there is always enough room for both to occur.

It is also breaks the story if it is already about good and evil facing each other in an epic battle. The duality of a situation tends to do a prophecy no favours, and vice versa.


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## JoanDrake

SPOILER ALERT FOR BATTLESTAR GALACTICA RATIONERS


Isn't BG a story in which the prophecy is a big deal throughout but, in the end, isn't true at all?


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## Mercerist

I like a good mystery of a prophecy to follow and guess along with as the story unfolds. Sometimes it's done well and can be a lot of fun to read. 

Unfortunately, it turns out disappointing more often than not, as others have said, with the same obvious outcomes and pleasant resolutions. And I guess it's getting rather meta at this point. Some twists and ambiguities aren't enough anymore. Pulling off a real twist is hard, especially in works that can't or don't want to get too dark. And with all the overuse it all tends to go into the territory of "it says this, but there has to be a twist, so they want us to think it's that instead, but that would be boring, so maybe it's like this...", and in the end everything is predictable from some angle. 

What I still like is a good solid threat waiting down the line.


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## Eli Grey

I've always been wary of using prophecy in my story but as I go along, it makes sense to have it but not be a focal point. I think it can ruin a story if it's driven too hard.


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## Eli Grey

The Storyteller said:


> I think the problem with prophecy is that it (like many fantasy clichés) is often used merely because it sounds cool or seems like the thing to do, and not because it actually enhances the story or is a necessity to further the plot.
> 
> 
> Also, as others have mentioned, it often gives away the entire plot. If there is a prophecy that a particular person is destined to stop a great evil, you know what's going to happen. There may be interesting twists along the way, but ultimately, you know how it is going to end. And I also dislike the idea that the hero's choices and results are predestined.
> 
> 
> That said, I think prophecy can be done well. It can add interest, intrigue, and character development (if done properly). But I think any author should think twice before using it, and make sure it's really important to the story and not just something that seems cool or fun. I used to be very quick to add prophecy to my story ideas because I like certain aspects of it, but I'm trying to be careful not to use it too liberally or without good cause.
> 
> On that note, I would love some advice on an idea I'm currently working on. I have been debating if any kind of prophecy should be involved with the main character. In this story, prophecy would not be an absolute thing, but would instead be a likely outcome for a character or event. In this case, the character would have had a prophecy that they are capable of becoming a very powerful sorcerer (bad guy) who will win an important war (which of course, would have very negative consequences for the "good guys"). She would not know about the prophecy at first (nor would the audience), but would discover it later on in the series.
> 
> The thing I like about it is that it would be a huge struggle for her. She is already feeling drawn towards dark magics, and the prophecy makes her afraid of what she could become, and makes other people suspicious and distrusting of her. She feels a constant need to 'fight her fate', and often fears she will give in because it has been 'prophesied'. But, she discovers that nothing is set in stone and ultimately, she would overcome her fear and "deny her fate". Until then, it would be something she really struggled with and greatly feared, which could help to develop her character and give her a personal challenge to overcome.
> 
> 
> The thing I don't like about it is I don't want to rely on prophecy if it is not needed or be cliché. She could simply just be a very powerful mage tempted to use dark magic and struggling against the desire, and thus have the conflict without the prophecy. I feel this might take some of the gravity out of her struggles and some of the interest out of the story, but I don't know. Does the "fighting her fate" seem too cliché? Is there potential for some kind of prophecy, or better to have nothing at all?
> 
> 
> Sorry for a long comment! Any feedback is appreciated.




Hi, 

For myself, I only just included a prophecy after years of having a story without one. The past week or so, the idea of having one seems necessary and I am reluctant. I definitely don't want it to give anything away. I think I will downplay it as much as possible.


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## Ronald T.

I have to say that I love prophesies.  They are the motivating tool to get protagonists off their asses and involved in an adventure that would never happen without the underlying danger of the prophesy.  And in truth, I find that many stories involve prophesies even when those prophesies are subtle, and even when they're never openly mentioned.  Much of everyday life is driven by prophesy -- personally created prophesy.  Consider how individuals follow life-long personal dreams.  Consider New Years resolutions.  What are we doing but following our own pre-determined prophesies?

Of course, that's just one man's opinion.  And what the hell do I know?


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## RX-79G

It seems like the use of prophesy is a shortcut that allows the author entirely skip having a back story or character motivation. It makes the protagonist a robot that went from idling on a farm to a freshly programmed warrior prince without the complications of having any real skin in the game or explaining how they become competent. It is much harder to write about the development of skills and desires than it is to simply impose them through a simple plot device.

However, I think part of the attraction is built into the foundation of fantasy itself - that the hero is randomly selected in a sense, which is important because the reader is also keen to be whisked away to a magical land, and that can only happen due to an equally irrational process. The prophesy serves the same irrational wish fulfillment that makes the plumber or accountant reading the fantasy more able to put themselves in the protagonists shoes. Prophesy is the rags to riches scenario for an impossible story in much the same way as the closet is for Narnia and buried alien tech or suspended animation is for sci fi. There isn't a lot of difference between Arthur and Buck Rogers in terms of their humble origins and how they make the reader feel that they too _could _participate.


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## Teresa Edgerton

RX-79G said:


> It seems like the use of prophesy is a shortcut that allows the author entirely skip having a back story or character motivation. It makes the protagonist a robot that went from idling on a farm to a freshly programmed warrior prince without the complications of having any real skin in the game or explaining how they become competent. It is much harder to write about the development of skills and desires than it is to simply impose them through a simple plot device.



Some books treat prophesy that way.  In others it can be part of the back story, sometimes a very complex back story.  And I have read books where the training of the protagonist to fill his/her role in the prophecy is a major part of the story -- so no freshly programmed warrior prince.  Also, the farm boy to warrior prince is a cliche used more often to denigrate fantasy than it actually appears in fantasy novels.



> There isn't a lot of difference between Arthur and Buck Rogers in terms of their humble origins and how they make the reader feel that they too _could _participate.



Arthur's origins were far from humble.  He was the son (albeit illegitimate son) of a king and a duchess, his birth engineered by Merlin presumably because Merlin knew what he could become.  Even hidden away and his identity unknown, he was the foster son in a noble household.

Many children dream that their parents are not their _real_ parents, that their real parents are rich/movie stars/royalty or whatever seems the most glamorous and exciting.  It seems to be encoded in our DNA -- or at least in our collective memory since thousands of years ago -- which is why it appears not only in Arthur's story but in countless myths, legends, and fairy tales.  It seems to speak to us on some deep subconscious level.  I would hesitate to guess what it really means.

Someone mentioned Cassandra earlier.  Her prophecies were not wobbly or obscure at all.  They were quite accurate.  But it was her curse that none would believe her.  Therefore everyone who heard her prophecies had the free will to act just as stupidly and self-destructively as they wanted to.  Only the end was predetermined, but only those who heard or read the story knew that.


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## RX-79G

Teresa Edgerton said:


> Arthur's origins were far from humble. He was the son (albeit illegitimate son) of a king and a duchess, his birth engineered by Merlin presumably because Merlin knew what he could become.


But Arthur doesn't know any of that, and that's the point. If you read the story from Arthur's viewpoint, he doesn't have reason to believe he is anything more than an orphan. You're protesting that the manner of the destiny is important, but it really isn't. Arthur starts his story as an everyman, but it is revealed to him that the manner of his hidden birth presages something much greater.



Teresa Edgerton said:


> Some books treat prophesy that way. In others it can be part of the back story, sometimes a very complex back story. And I have read books where the training of the protagonist to fill his/her role in the prophecy is a major part of the story -- so no freshly programmed warrior prince. Also, the farm boy to warrior prince is a cliche used more often to denigrate fantasy than it actually appears in fantasy novels.


Sorry to be a denigrater. Any trope in any genre can be pointed to as crutch, but that doesn't mean that any discussion of those tropes is any more of an attack on the genre than just pointing out that fantasy one of the most extreme forms of literary wish fulfillment there is.

I did not mean that prophesy alone prepares the protagonist completely, but it does explain why anyone feels the need to train her or why she is even able to complete the training. It is a stand-in for some of the character's agency.


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## Teresa Edgerton

RX-79G said:


> If you read the story from Arthur's viewpoint, he doesn't have reason to believe he is anything more than an orphan ... Arthur starts his story as an everyman



He really doesn't.  He starts as the foster-son of a knight, training to become a knight himself.  Which as far as the majority of the people hearing his story during the Middle Ages was an enviable position to be in, though of course squire to king was an enormous jump.



> Any trope in any genre can be pointed to as crutch, but that doesn't mean that any discussion of those tropes is any more of an attack on the genre than just pointing out that fantasy one of the most extreme forms of literary wish fulfillment there is.



Oh, I don't dispute any of that.  It's just that I get tired of hearing the farm boy argument which is even more tedious than the trope itself, and which many people (I'm not referring to you, because I don't know you or what you have read or what you know) seem to think is emblematic of what is really a very diverse genre.  So I become very cross when I hear about farm boys becoming princes and wish someone would come up with a more interesting example to boost whatever point they are trying to make.


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## RX-79G

Teresa Edgerton said:


> Oh, I don't dispute any of that. It's just that I get tired of hearing the farm boy argument which is even more tedious than the trope itself, and which many people (I'm not referring to you, because I don't know you or what you have read or what you know) seem to think is emblematic of what is really a very diverse genre. So I become very cross when I hear about farm boys becoming princes and wish someone would come up with a more interesting example to boost whatever point they are trying to make.


For the benefit of those of us who aren't immersed in fantasy, could you share an example of a non-complex use of prophecy that doesn't serve as agency for either the protagonist or antagonist?



Teresa Edgerton said:


> He really doesn't. He starts as the foster-son of a knight, training to become a knight himself. Which as far as the majority of the people hearing his story during the Middle Ages was an enviable position to be in, though of course squire to king was an enormous jump.


Given the era the story comes from, I think an orphan knight-in-training is probably about as egalitarian you're going to get. Anything lower than that and Camelot would be a work of social revolutionary fiction. A serf attaining any advance in their station would be simply unbelievable to anyone of the time.


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## Teresa Edgerton

RX-79G said:


> For the benefit of those of us who aren't immersed in fantasy, could you share an example of a non-complex use of prophecy that doesn't serve as agency for either the protagonist or antagonist?



Well, there is the prophecy about the Witch King of Angmar in _The Lord of the Rings_. Glorfindel had prophesied that he would not "fall by the hand of man" (or as the Witch King  says "no living man may hinder me" although he had already been _hindered_ at Feathertop when his purpose was to kill Frodo and he didn't).  Everyone took this to mean that _no one_ could kill the Witch King, so nobody even tried.  But the prophesy was fulfilled by Eowyn and Merry, two secondary characters -- as was the nazgûl himself for that matter. And it certainly wasn't something Eowyn thought about doing until she found herself in the situation of trying to save her dying uncle, and in the heat of battle.  It's possible that she didn't even _know_ there was a prophecy.



RX-79G said:


> Given the era the story comes from, I think an orphan knight-in-training is probably about as egalitarian you're going to get. Anything lower than that and Camelot would be a work of social revolutionary fiction. A serf attaining any advance in their station would be simply unbelievable to anyone of the time.



None of which changes the fact that Arthur was not an "everyman" character as you suggested.  As squire to Sir Kay and training to become a knight -- a privilege which the common man didn't have -- he was part of the ruling elite, although at the very lowest level.   Did the common man or woman identify with him?  That is very doubtful, especially since they knew the beginning of the story and were quite aware of who he really was.  It probably wasn't until hundreds of years later that people began thinking of the young squire as a lowly character and were able to identify with him.

(Serfs could advance to freemen under certain circumstances, and to them it must have seemed a tremendous advance in their status.  So for a serf to attain _some_ advance in their station was both possible and believable.)


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## RX-79G

Teresa Edgerton said:


> Well, there is the prophecy about the Witch King of Angmar in _The Lord of the Rings_. Glorfindel had prophesied that he would not "fall by the hand of man" (or as the Witch King says "no living man may hinder me" although he had already been _hindered_ at Feathertop when his purpose was to kill Frodo and he didn't).


Not to nit-pick overly, but is that really a "prophesy" any more than Achilles being dipped in Styx? Is the prophecy providing the protection simply through a type of predestination, or is the Witch King actually and physically invulnerably shielded from violence from males? Is it a portent, or simply a description of the limits of his power as granted by his ring?



Teresa Edgerton said:


> None of which changes the fact that Arthur was not an "everyman" character as you suggested.


I just think you're taking a slightly anachronistic view of who could and couldn't be a protagonist in a medieval heroic account. The serfs, villeins, cottagers and freemen were not available to step into a role on the other side of the feudal system. My comments were from the viewpoint of the people living at that time, and I meant that the "everyman" hero would have to be at least in the minimum class and race that qualified for consideration. Of those, Arthur starts near the bottom. It was simply not conceivable to tell a tale of power and chivalry any other way.


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## HareBrain

RX-79G said:


> is that really a "prophesy" any more than Achilles being dipped in Styx? Is the prophecy providing the protection simply through a type of predestination, or is the Witch King actually and physically invulnerably shielded from violence from males?



There's nothing (apart from the prophecy) to say the sword stroke that felled him couldn't have been a man's. Eowyn doesn't have a magic sword, and we're not told of any protection the Witch King specifically has against men. (The prophecy is "not by the hand of man shall he fall", not "he cannot fall by the hand of a man".)

What allows Eowyn to kill him, it seems (though it's not made explicit), is that the Hobbit Merry first knifes him in the back of the knee with an ancient blade enchanted against the Witch King. We're not told (as far as I recall) whether this magic then removes the Witch-King's protection against normal weapons (assuming that even existed). But it does fulfil your requirements of being a prophecy, rather than a statement of existing conditions, and one that does not provide anyone with agency, since neither Eowyn nor Merry seem aware of it at the time of going into combat.


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## Brian G Turner

Teresa Edgerton said:


> the Witch King says "no living man may hinder me"



I took this as a direct allusion to _Macbeth_, where the eponymous hero is told he cannot be killed by "any man born of woman", and realises the sharp truth of it when he faces Macduff, who was born by caesarian.



RX-79G said:


> Any trope in any genre can be pointed to as crutch, but that doesn't mean that any discussion of those tropes is any more of an attack on the genre than just pointing out that fantasy one of the most extreme forms of literary wish fulfillment there is.
> 
> I did not mean that prophesy alone prepares the protagonist completely, but it does explain why anyone feels the need to train her or why she is even able to complete the training. It is a stand-in for some of the character's agency.



Quite true, and I very much agree with much of what you say on the issue of prophecy in fantasy - there has been some very lazy writing in the past that uses it, precisely for the reasons you mention. 

However, I can't think of any examples in epic fantasy published this century where it's been used in that way, but I can think of more than a few examples where the concept is directly challenged, inverted, or otherwise spun very differently.


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## Teresa Edgerton

RX-79G said:


> I just think you're taking a slightly anachronistic view of who could and couldn't be a protagonist in a medieval heroic account.



I never said anything about who could or couldn't be the protagonist in a medieval heroic account.  I simply disagree with calling young Arthur an everyman character.  He wouldn't have been that from anyone's standpoint during the medieval period. To my mind it is anachronistic to consider him in that light.

But it also seems to me that you and I will never agree on that point, so let's agree to disagree and leave it.


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## RX-79G

Teresa Edgerton said:


> I never said anything about who could or couldn't be the protagonist in a medieval heroic account.  I simply disagree with calling young Arthur an everyman character.  He wouldn't have been that from anyone's standpoint during the medieval period. To my mind it is anachronistic to consider him in that light.
> 
> But it also seems to me that you and I will never agree on that point, so let's agree to disagree and leave it.


It really isn't very important to have have strong feelings about. To be fair to both viewpoints, I don't think the concept of "everyman" is compatible with feudalism, since it implies that there is only one source of "men", when it was much closer to a two caste system that might as well be two different species.


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## Ronald T.

RX-79G said:


> It seems like the use of prophesy is a shortcut that allows the author entirely skip having a back story or character motivation. It makes the protagonist a robot that went from idling on a farm to a freshly programmed warrior prince without the complications of having any real skin in the game or explaining how they become competent. It is much harder to write about the development of skills and desires than it is to simply impose them through a simple plot device.
> 
> However, I think part of the attraction is built into the foundation of fantasy itself - that the hero is randomly selected in a sense, which is important because the reader is also keen to be whisked away to a magical land, and that can only happen due to an equally irrational process. The prophesy serves the same irrational wish fulfillment that makes the plumber or accountant reading the fantasy more able to put themselves in the protagonists shoes. Prophesy is the rags to riches scenario for an impossible story in much the same way as the closet is for Narnia and buried alien tech or suspended animation is for sci fi. There isn't a lot of difference between Arthur and Buck Rogers in terms of their humble origins and how they make the reader feel that they too _could _participate.




RX, clearly you've been reading different prophesy stories than I have.  And I can promise you, in my novel, THE UNNAMED RUNE, the first book in the series, you won't find any of the shortcuts you complain about and suggest are rampant examples of lazy writing.  If a writer does his/her job effectively, there is no reason to find prophesies any less enjoyable than any other aspect of a story.

Perhaps you have become jaded by reading too much fantasy. Maybe you have become bored with certain common, and highly looked for, tropes in the fantasy genre -- tropes that, if they are missing in the novels I read, I feel deeply cheated.  Prophesy is a great dynamic element of this genre, and I never become bored with it, or find it an unrealistic detail (to the genre, of course), or an unnecessary addition to the story.  It's what I thrive on, in my reading, and in my writing.

Perhaps a different genre would suit you better.  There is no requirement that you read something you find ludicrous.  You're the master of your life.

Simply find a genre that does a better job of fulfilling your tastes.

All my best.


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## RX-79G

Ronald T. said:


> RX, clearly you've been reading different prophesy stories than I have.  And I can promise you, in my novel, THE UNNAMED RUNE, the first book in the series, you won't find any of the shortcuts you complain about and suggest are rampant examples of lazy writing.  If a writer does his/her job effectively, there is no reason to find prophesies any less enjoyable than any other aspect of a story.
> 
> Perhaps you have become jaded by reading too much fantasy. Maybe you have become bored with certain common, and highly looked for, tropes in the fantasy genre -- tropes that, if they are missing in the novels I read, I feel deeply cheated.  Prophesy is a great dynamic element of this genre, and I never become bored with it, or find it an unrealistic detail (to the genre, of course), or an unnecessary addition to the story.  It's what I thrive on, in my reading, and in my writing.
> 
> Perhaps a different genre would suit you better.  There is no requirement that you read something you find ludicrous.  You're the master of your life.
> 
> Simply find a genre that does a better job of fulfilling your tastes.
> 
> All my best.


Maybe. But when I read this description, it sounds a lot like what we were talking about:
The Unnamed Rune, an Ebook by Ronald Taylor Smith

One use of prophecy I really enjoyed (even though it was a silly movie) was in _Bulletproof Monk_. The monk keeps looking at the boy because he appears to be fulfilling the prophesy, but it turns out the girl who is around for all these events is the actual fulfiller.


I really don't have super strong feelings about prophesy. I think it is an aesthetic element that many fantasy readers really like because it lends gravitas to the story, and that's fine.


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## Ronald T.

RX-79G said:


> Maybe. But when I read this description, it sounds a lot like what we were talking about:
> The Unnamed Rune, an Ebook by Ronald Taylor Smith
> 
> One use of prophecy I really enjoyed (even though it was a silly movie) was in _Bulletproof Monk_. The monk keeps looking at the boy because he appears to be fulfilling the prophesy, but it turns out the girl who is around for all these events is the actual fulfiller.
> 
> 
> I really don't have super strong feelings about prophesy. I think it is an aesthetic element that many fantasy readers really like because it lends gravitas to the story, and that's fine.




I have to agree with you, RX.  I do use prophecy in my novel, because I see it as powerful motivation for the MC's.  But as I said, it's all about how that prophecy is presented in the story.  It can either be done as an exciting and necessary aspect of the story, or it can be bungled and inserted as poorly planned cliché.  It all comes down to how well an author uses a trope.  Well done, tropes can be some of the best elements in fantasy.  Poorly done...well?  You made a good argument for writers to do the hard work necessary.

And by the way, I enjoyed our discussion.  Varying points of view are so often a good tool for making each of us reconsider our own stance on an issue.  It's best that we always review out opinion on long-held certainties.  In doing so, I've had to reevaluate and alter my mindset more than once over the years. 

Although you've brought up some great points, I have to say, on this issue only, I must retain my original opinion.  I still love stories with well done prophecies.

All my best to you, RX.


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## Ronald T.

By the way, RX.  I really enjoyed _Bulletproof Monk_, as well.  Even though it was done tongue-in-cheek to a certain degree, it was a very entertaining movie.


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## Ronald T.

One other thing, RX.  I happened to pull up the Smashwords site this morning and found it was all messed up.  At least it is for my novel.  I sent their support group a note explaining the problem and I hope to get a response real soon.

However, on Amazon, my novel, THE UNNAMED RUNE, comes up just as it should.  So I'm a bit disappointed in Smashwords.  I don't know how long this problem has been going on.  But I will say I haven't had any sales on their site in the past few weeks.  I just hope other authors aren't experiencing the same trouble.

Have a great day, RX.


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## Ronald T.

Cheers to Smashwords, RX.  They responded very quickly, and the problem is solved.  They were not to blame...I was.  So my deepest apologies to Smashwords.  As always, they are still great.


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