# The Borg arrive...



## Mirannan (Jul 16, 2014)

Wasn't sure where to put this, mods move it please if deemed necessary.

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on a question I've been musing about. The Borg is a mid-range threat (by the standards of sheer power level between various fictional universes) which the Sol system and allies of its own milieu was hard-pressed to fight off.

So the question is: Assuming all franchises have their own tech and other powers, which fictional versions of Earth and surrounds would be a speedbump for this threat, which would fight it on even terms and which would laugh at it?

To start it off, and in my opinion: RL Earth is toast, the Earth system of the Babylon 5 universe is a decent match and Marvel (or DC) Earth has them for breakfast.

Comments?


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## Bick (Jul 16, 2014)

Death Star _could_ blow them up, but would be too slow.
The Culture would have them after a decent fight.
Honor Harrington would keep her ship pointing the right way and have them for breakfast.


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## Parson (Jul 16, 2014)

Fred Saberhagen's Berserkers would be an interesting match.


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## Michael Colton (Jul 21, 2014)

The problem with an enemy such as the Borg is that they were written with a few specific technological and logistical Achilles heels. So any fictional terra that had engineers capable of discovering those would have at least the same success as Starfleet & Co. It was not a traditionalist war where the power of the relative forces was paramount - so hypotheticals regarding power do not seem to fit.


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## Dave (Jul 21, 2014)

Sodice said:


> The problem with an enemy such as the Borg is that they were written with a few specific technological and logistical Achilles heels.


I so disagree! Their ability to 'Assimilate that' means that any technology which improved upon them could be adapted and adopted to make them even more powerful. They ought to have been the most powerful alien threat that there could ever be. I'm pretty sure that they were originally designed that way, even if they were ripped off from Dr Who's Cybermen, because the existing Starfleet enemies had already been tamed. What the writers did with them later, watering them down until they also became Federation pets, adding those "Achilles heels", well that had to happen if Earth was to survive in the Star Trek universe. I saw it as Retconning.

To use the example already given: a Death Star at the Battle of Wolf 359 would have defeated the Borg, but the following year five Borg Death Stars would turn up and win the war.


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## Michael Colton (Jul 21, 2014)

Dave said:


> I so disagree! Their ability to 'Assimilate that' means that any technology which improved upon them could be adapted and adopted to make them even more powerful. They ought to have been the most powerful alien threat that there could ever be. I'm pretty sure that they were originally designed that way, even if they were ripped off from Dr Who's Cybermen, because the existing Starfleet enemies had already been tamed. What the writers did with them later, watering them down until they also became Federation pets, adding those "Achilles heels", well that had to happen if Earth was to survive in the Star Trek universe. I saw it as Retconning.
> 
> To use the example already given: a Death Star at the Battle of Wolf 359 would have defeated the Borg, but the following year five Borg Death Stars would turn up and win the war.



Can it really be seen as full retconning? Surely the writers never intended for the Borg to actually win, so they had to have some weaknesses in mind from the beginning. Even if they were not specific ones.

When a force is that superior from a sheer power perspective, some form of technological or logistical Achilles heel is really the only way they can be defeated by vastly inferior enemies such as Starfleet. Their early appearance was as an unknown, a mysterious new foe. They would certainly appear invincible when they are first introduced to not only the characters but the viewers as well. As the other civilizations gained more experience with them, their weaknesses would become knowable.

Granted, many fans claim that certain elements of their story such as the Queen seemed like they were tacked on at the end in order to make them vulnerable, but this ignores Species 8472 that was able to easily destroy the Borg until it was Starfleet themselves that _helped the Borg_ defeat them.

Long story short: entities like the Borg are written in very specific contexts of episodic television that require some finality in the form of season and series finales. Because of this, comparing them to other fictional forces in terms of power is difficult because all you would need to defeat them is another foe that takes similar actions to the 'good guys' in those previously mentioned finales.


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## Dave (Jul 21, 2014)

Sodice said:


> Can it really be seen as full retconning?


I do understand the constraints of episodic TV but I still think they were a very powerful villain that was wasted and watered down. The addition of the Queen did make them very vulnerable. It changed them from a peer-to-peer network to a centralised governed system.


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## Mirannan (Jul 21, 2014)

Star Trek is a rather good example of a series with huge plot holes. For example, right at the very start the first Borg ship to be encountered would have been fairly easy to defeat. A good old-fashioned megaton range thermonuclear bomb transported into the middle of the ship, after the away team had discovered the threat, would have done fine; it's a little difficult to adapt when you're already a rapidly expanding cloud of plasma.

Perhaps the Borg were a poor choice.


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## Michael Colton (Jul 21, 2014)

Dave said:


> I do understand the constraints of episodic TV but I still think they were a very powerful villain that was wasted and watered down. The addition of the Queen did make them very vulnerable. It changed them from a peer-to-peer network to a centralised governed system.



If the writers had intended to morph the series into a military science fiction story, then yes I would agree they wasted an opportunity. But since combat was never the forefront or dominant themes of the pre-Abrams Star Trek, I quite liked the development of the Borg. It allowed 'Star Trek-ish' stories and themes to be included in them instead of it just being a powerful enemy.

But, obviously, we are now just down to personal enjoyment of the route they chose as it relates to the rest of the Trek universe. To each their own.


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## Dave (Jul 21, 2014)

I thought it was relevant to this thread since Mirannan classed them as only a "mid-range threat" but I don't want to make a issue of it. All fictional threats to Earth have by necessity an Achilles heel. _Independence Day_ needs Will Smith to be able to upload a virus. Even HG Wells Martians are susceptible to "putrefactive bacteria."


Mirannan said:


> A good old-fashioned megaton range thermonuclear bomb transported into the middle of the ship, after the away team had discovered the threat, would have done fine; it's a little difficult to adapt when you're already a rapidly expanding cloud of plasma.


Okay, let's hold the thought of the thread but expand it a little. Most alien threats could probably be defeated with a nuke, and that was how _Stargate_ did it, but I think you were really looking for more creative methods.


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## Vertigo (Jul 21, 2014)

Interesting comments on the Queen. I always had a problem with her. It seemed to me that when they introduced the Queen they changed the politics, social organisation, driving force and believability of the Borg. A terrible shame I thought.

As to a fit enemy for them I would go with Parson; the Berserkers would have given them a run for their money. You need something that can beat them at their own game. Adapt and change as fast as them.


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## Darkranger85 (Aug 17, 2014)

I'd have to say that Stargate Earth would kick the Borgs collective (Ha!) butts.

Their Asgard upgraded ships would be more than a match, and their use of projectile weapons would own drones.


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## Ray McCarthy (Aug 22, 2014)

The largest nuke actually atmospherically detonated was USSR Tzar Bomba, over 50MT. It would have destroyed buildings *completely* 100km (over 60miles) diameter. About 10Km diameter (6 mile) patch of glass. Tsar Bomba is certainly not the largest weapon possible. It had about 97% yield from fusion.  The largest USA model atmospheric test was more yield than expected and 12MT. The "Fat Man" dropped on Nagasaki was only 12KT. The USSR and USA did both plan to deploy 25MT warheads. (1960s). But development (and fright about what if it went off at wrong place?) of accurate ICBMs resulted in concentration of development on small (miniaturised) multiple warhead devices (3 to 12 devices) in the 0.3MT power. 

Just ONE MIRV past a the "Shields" will vaporise a Borg ship. We can probably build devices 1000 times more powerful. So the only question is to how to get such devices past a shield.  The fictional "Warp Core" (where do the Federation get the Antimatter from?) if weaponised would make a Thermonuclear weapon (Fusion device ignited by fission bomb) look like a hand grenade.

Star Trek is good fun, most of it, but it's rotten science fiction. The original 1960-61 Tsar Bomba design was 100MT. But the Russians had concerns about the amount of fall out and destruction of the bomber releasing it. The smaller tested weapon turned out to be infeasiblely powerful.  Some suggest the USA and USSR testing of these stupidly powerful weapons followed by the Cuban Crisis almost exactly a year after the Tsar Bomba test frightened the USA and USSR into the serious engagement of SALT from 1969.

Well, we are still here. 

Regan's "Star Wars" program would only have encouraged more MIRV production and more Nuclear Subs. Any such system has to be 100% effective or it only feeds the arms race. Of course others claim the cost of the arms race is what caused the collapse of the USSR in 1991. I don't think so, the Soviet system was inherently doomed to fail.


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## Mirannan (Aug 22, 2014)

ST has a number of technologies that don't work too well but address possible concerns; an example is that they apparently have a transporter filter that keeps out known infective organisms. I can imagine that ST technobabble might well keep anything other than normal matter out if the tech being used is the transporter, and also might have the option to keep out weapons in operable condition; none of which applies to an old fashioned thermonuke (which could easily be transported with some part needing to be inserted) but might well apply to an antimatter bomb.

A fair number of ST technologies have at least some legitimacy. My biggest problem with ST is that potentially powerful technologies seen to crop up every other week and are promptly dropped like a hot potato; examples are transporter-based age-reversal tech and sapient nanotech.

Incidentally, the episode I was referring to had people traveling backwards and forwards to the Borg ship as if it had a revolving door, so presumably the shields weren't up.

Perhaps my choice of the Borg was a bad one. OK, how about a Cylon attack group?


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## Ray McCarthy (Aug 28, 2014)

The badly done too much chrome original versions that seem like a cross between Data's Brother and a toy invented by reptiles, or the later ones (I have never seen an episode/film the re-imagined ones) that seem to be a copy of Zoe's memories and deluded into thinking they can possibly equivalent to a real sentient being?

I can't see though how either can be much better than the Borg. I've read a fair amount of Military SF (inc Starship Troopers, but I avoided the film). Most of it seems like a re-imagining of WWII or Vietnam in Space. Do the "wars" in EE "Doc" Smith count as Military SF, or just as fun Space Opera?

I think you need to just read (or watch) this sort of stuff and not at all start to analyse it or it falls apart quicker than Narnia, David Eddings or Raymond E Feist wars.

I have no difficulty enjoying via "suspension of disbelief", but not usually applying real world knowledge or even internal logic at the same time. Babylon 5 is more robust for me than Battlestar Galactica (original), Star Wars, Star Trek (any version or spin off), Andromeda (deterioated IMO), Stargate (pilot and some episodes, Pilot not bad, but I gave up on series), Earth Final Conflict (deterioated IMO), Blake's Seven (enjoyed earlier lot very much)  for me. Not sure about Farscape as I only saw a few episodes. But even B5 isn't as good as many books though I think the best TV SF I've seen.


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## Null_Zone (Aug 28, 2014)

The Earth of the Culture novels would do quite well if only because the drone keeping an eye of us would turn an aggressive hegemonic swarm into an evangelical hegemonic swarm without breaking a sweat.


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## Mirannan (Aug 31, 2014)

Hmmm... I wasn't really looking for pointless curbstomps in either direction. I'm quite sure we can all think of numerous examples of fictional Sol systems that would be a pushover - and also probably even more for which the Borg fleet wouldn't even qualify as an annoyance.

I don't think either case is all that interesting, unless the reason isn't obvious.


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## Null_Zone (Sep 1, 2014)

The problem with the Borg is that at high levels most God's would have a problem dealing with them, and as is cannon they can assimilate anything with a material presence the few that survive are in serious trouble, and at low settings me and the pet chinchillas could save Earth.


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## JoanDrake (Sep 2, 2014)

One thing that should be noted. The frequency hopping device which the Federation uses to defeat the Borg's ability to shield against an original frequency actually exists. It has existed, in fact, since WWII and is a standard part of all cellphones today. If that isn't strange enough then you should know it was invented by the movie star Hedy Lamarr. Look it up


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## Zoe Mackay (Sep 2, 2014)

It's always a problem, that your enemies have to be invincible enough to be scary, but weak enough to be disposed of by the end of the episode or story. Even a Rock Monster has to have weak points, or you have to have the pieces to fashion some kind of rudimentary lathe.


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## Ray McCarthy (Sep 2, 2014)

JoanDrake said:


> One thing that should be noted. The frequency hopping device which the Federation uses to defeat the Borg's ability to shield against an original frequency actually exists. It has existed, in fact, since WWII and is a standard part of all cellphones today. If that isn't strange enough then you should know it was invented by the movie star Hedy Lamarr. Look it up


A) it's not actually the same thing, as the device you speak of was for low data rate Radio.
B) Hedy Lamarr didn't invent it. The guy that wrote the US patent and Hedy had discussed it. I'm not sure if she or George Antheil or both saw the demo in Germany in 1941 prior to the USA entering the War. Anyway her name was put on the U.S. Patent application as a joke. Like many other US patents, it's a technicality. It wasn't a US invention, just a US patent.
1941 George Antheil and Hedy Lamarr  "Secret Communications System" that used a code (stored on a punched paper tape) to synchronise random frequencies, referred to as frequency hopping, with a receiver and transmitter.
C) CDMA-one and 3G inherently use it. GSM doesn't at all, nor does 4G for downlink. So it's not a standard part of all Cell phones. There are many cell phone systems, It works best for covert communications and was first used by the military for that. I had a Racal designed Radio that does the Hopping. There are actually two distinct hopping schemes. The general idea for secure communications is to use a pseudo random code so the signal is just like wideband noise. The modern version of CDMA1 is CDMA2000 /  EVDO. It uses a 1.25MHz channel. Unlike military secure communications all the hopping codes are known. Each connection using the 1.25MHz channel at the same time  uses a different pseudo random sequence. So if the system was perfect 10 users would see 1/10th capacity. In fact the system isn't optimal so as more users are added the Signal to Noise degrades too fast and half the channel capacity can lost.  The 3G was obsolete when launched. But politics and US interests ensured it was based on the CDMA system, but 5MHz rather than 1.25MHz  channels to give x4 capacity.  Because the system is inefficient it's best to alternate between 3, 6 or 9 channels on adjacent channels.
So in a 5MHz channel with ONE user only the 4G /LTE is same speed as 3G/HSPA. But if you have 10 users the LTE may be twice as good as 3G.
http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/img3.html
Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum. is a rubbish system for more than two military users. CDMA uses Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum and was used for Mobile because it was a simple bandwidth sharing system, not because it's good. It uses Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum.

*The Federation / Borg thing isn't Radio. *

*Hedy Lamar  didn't invent Spread Spectrum*
This is inaccurate. But gets closer to truth. It was a German/Austrian idea that wasn't implemented. No US company, nor the US Navy took up the US patent though.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Hedy-Lamarr-inventor-of-frequency-hopping-or-spread-spectrum-switching

See also
http://www.marcus-spectrum.com/page4/SSHist.html

Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum or Frequency hopping was actually first used in the 1970s (it uses a micro controller to pseudo randomly change the frequency on a PLL synthesiser) for secure two user two way military communications. Long after the impractical "stolen" US Patent expired.
The other type of spread spectrum uses a pseudo random clock to modulate the frequency much faster than the data rate.


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## BAYLOR (Sep 8, 2014)

In the Doctor Who Universe ,The Borg would be a major Player.  If they came up against The Daleks, that would be a very nasty long drawn out costly  war.  In terms of Technology both sides are pretty evenly matched. But in the end the Daleks would find a way to win.


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## Dave (Sep 8, 2014)

BAYLOR said:


> In the Doctor Who Universe ,The Borg would be a major Player.  If they came up against The Daleks, that would be a very nasty long drawn out costly war.


Hmm! They have philosophies that are totally at odds with each other. "Assimilate" vs. "Exterminate". To quote Harry Hill, "I wonder who would win? There is only one way to find out!"


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## BAYLOR (Sep 8, 2014)

Dave said:


> Hmm! They have philosophies that are totally at odds with each other. "Assimilate" vs. "Exterminate". To quote Harry Hill, "I wonder who would win? There is only one way to find out!"




It would be an interesting contest.


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## Ray McCarthy (Sep 15, 2014)

Lets watch from a safe distance and nuke the winner.


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## Michael Colton (Sep 15, 2014)

I somehow missed this thread continuing to roll on. Silly email notifications. As far as Dr. Who, I do not watch it so I would not know. Also, Ray do you just have random tech information in your head at all times or just a master of tech Googling? I now know more about radio frequencies than I ever planned to.


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## Ray McCarthy (Sep 15, 2014)

I have been a Communications Engineer (Voice /TV /Data analogue and Digital transmission), Programmer (Embedded, Databases, Desktop & other), Electronics Engineer (Analogue, Industrial, Digital, RF) etc. So sadly I can really bore people at a party without access to Wikipedia.


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## Michael Colton (Sep 15, 2014)

Ray McCarthy said:


> I have been a Communications Engineer (Voice /TV /Data analogue and Digital transmission), Programmer (Embedded, Databases, Desktop & other), Electronics Engineer (Analogue, Industrial, Digital, RF) etc. So sadly I can really bore people at a party without access to Wikipedia.



Well, there are certainly worse talents. I learned long ago to not use Plato in my socializing. At least you can discuss new technology with people and other things they are more likely to be interested in. Like what is good or bad about the new iPhone or something along those lines.


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## Ray McCarthy (Sep 15, 2014)

People DON'T want to be told it's just cosmetic and how it really works and who really did it first years earlier and how it' s a premium markup just for the brand etc ... they want it to be admired.
Sorry no, they want to be admired for such a wise purchase. People used to think watches were cool  ... oh wait!


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## Phyrebrat (Sep 15, 2014)

I would recruit superteam Gaius Baltar & Felix Gaeta - they seem to be able to come up with any solution provided some form of deity is allowed to influence their creative thinking... 

But on a more realistic <ahem> level, wouldn't John Crichton's wormhole tech weapon be pretty efficient? How do you assimilate a weaponised singularity?

pH


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## Michael Colton (Sep 15, 2014)

Ray McCarthy said:


> People DON'T want to be told it's just cosmetic and how it really works and who really did it first years earlier and how it' s a premium markup just for the brand etc ... they want it to be admired.
> Sorry no, they want to be admired for such a wise purchase. People used to think watches were cool  ... oh wait!



I think the whole watch thing is a good example of a successful brand finally jumping the shark. Some folks will buy it just because it is Apple, but this cannot bring back the casual use of watches. They are a fashion accessory now; if you release one that does not fit in with what is considered 'classy' and would go well with a suit, they cannot be successful in the long run. I just do not see this being a 'thing.'


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## BAYLOR (Sep 19, 2014)

Ray McCarthy said:


> Lets watch from a safe distance and nuke the winner.




A Galaxy away would be the safest distance.


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## BAYLOR (Jul 16, 2016)

Borg vs Star wars universe. I think the Empire would have a a very difficult time against the Borg. Of course , Sith emperor and his servant  into the equation , that might be enough to at least stalemate the Borg.


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## Dave (Jul 16, 2016)

These are not the assimilations you are looking for.


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## Old_Man_Steve2016 (Jul 18, 2016)

The Star Carrier Series: The Terran Confederation has many ships. They aren't very fast and their weapons are fairly primitive by Star Trek Federation standards. But, they can pack a punch. The Terran Confederation would lose against a threat like the Borg in the long term. In the short term- speed kills.
*Speed kills.*

The Night's Dawn trilogy: That's all humanity needs to deal with, when they already have their hands with the dead coming back to life and 2 major threats on the horizon. I think 3 Borg ships would easily eliminate 800 planets IF the dead don't show up in the fight. IF they show up, then the Borg have a serious fight on their hands. Good luck adapting to 'white fire', Mr. Borg.


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## Mirannan (Jul 18, 2016)

I just came up with an interesting match, I think. Two aggressive hegemonising swarms against each other. In the Red Corner: The Borg invasion fleet from the relevant episodes. In the Blue Corner: The Vile Offspring from Charles Stross's Accelerando. What happens?


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## Old_Man_Steve2016 (Jul 18, 2016)

The Mass Effect series: They could probably deal with the Normandy and most other ships in the fleet with ease. Against April Shepard in a ground battle with her and 2 partners vs 100 Borg? April can handle that. Let's see how a Borg cube handles a Reaper. You know THEY will show up.

Destiny: That's a lot of diverse weapons to adapt against.


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## BAYLOR (Jul 18, 2016)

Parson said:


> Fred Saberhagen's Berserkers would be an interesting match.



Since the Borg are part organic , The Berserkers would consider them an enemy. As to the Borg assimilating Berserker Tech , that might be difficult for one reason,  the Berserkers have a C Plus Hyper space weapon which no borg shield could adapt to or stop. It  would enable them to destroy the Borg from long range.


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## Khuratokh (Jul 18, 2016)

Anyone read the Star Trek: Destiny trilogy? 
I don't know how it came into being, but I imagine the author was fed up with the Borg as an (easily defeatable) villain. 
After numerous thwarted attempts to assimilate the Federation, the Borg queen decides it'll be easier to simply kill us all.
Despite a flimsy premise it is one of the better Trek novels and succeeds where so many have failed:
It makes the Borg scary again.


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## BAYLOR (Jul 18, 2016)

Khuratokh said:


> Anyone read the Star Trek: Destiny trilogy?
> I don't know how it came into being, but I imagine the author was fed up with the Borg as an (easily defeatable) villain.
> After numerous thwarted attempts to assimilate the Federation, the Borg queen decides it'll be easier to simply kill us all.
> Despite a flimsy premise it is one of the better Trek novels and succeeds where so many have failed:
> It makes the Borg scary again.



You know what could be a fun matchup?  Borg vs Necrons from the Warhammer 40k universe.    The Necrons are just plan malevolently scary and millions of years old ,  their tech is easy above the Borg .  The Necron Gauss weapons alone  would rip through Borg shields like tissue paper, they would overwhelm them in battle.


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## Khuratokh (Jul 18, 2016)

BAYLOR said:


> You know what could be a fun matchup.  Borg vs Necrons from the Warhammer 40k universe.    The Necrons are just plan malevolently scary and millions of years old ,  their tech is easy above the Borg .  The Necron Gauss weapons alone  would rip through Borg shields like tissue paper, they would overwhelm them in battle.


Hmm are curbstomp battles interesting really?


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## BAYLOR (Jul 18, 2016)

Khuratokh said:


> Hmm are curbstomp battles interesting really?



Pretty much.


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## Khuratokh (Jul 18, 2016)

In the Destiny trilogy the Borg change their tactics. Where they used to stage invasions based on 1 -5 cubes and beaming over boarding parties. 
Now they invade using thousands of cubes warping in at once. Destroy ships by ramming and level planets by using their own ships as kinetic kill weapons. Those that beam aboard cubes are now not only attacked by drones, but also by the cube's interior. Walls crush invaders. Tentacles skewer tresspassers.


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## BAYLOR (Jul 18, 2016)

Khuratokh said:


> In the Destiny trilogy the Borg change their tactics. Where they used to stage invasions based on 1 -5 cubes and beaming over boarding parties.
> Now they invade using thousands of cubes warping in at once. Destroy ships by ramming and level planets by using their own ships as kinetic kill weapons. Those that beam aboard cubes are now not only attacked by drones, but also by the cube's interior. Walls crush invaders. Tentacles skewer tresspassers.



I have to check those books out.


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## BAYLOR (Aug 21, 2016)

I seem to recall find a piece of fan fiction crossover  in which the a Borg cube and the enterprise D got sucked into the Halo Universe. The Convent had the misfortune of Encountering the Borg cube.  I do think the Borg could beat the Covenant.


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## Dulahan (Aug 24, 2016)

Has anyone mentioned Dr. Who? I think the Borg vs The Doctor _(maybe by way of the Cybermen?)_ would be an excellent cross over.


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## BAYLOR (Aug 24, 2016)

Dulahan said:


> Has anyone mentioned Dr. Who? I think the Borg vs The Doctor _(maybe by way of the Cybermen?)_ would be an excellent cross over.



They did  such  Graphic Novel Crossover with Star Trek The Next Generation.  *Assimilation 2 .*


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## Dulahan (Aug 24, 2016)

@BAYLOR Now that you mention it I sorta remember there might have been a comic cross-over with David Tennant's Doctor, right? Maybe I will have to look for it.


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## BAYLOR (Aug 24, 2016)

Dulahan said:


> @BAYLOR Now that you mention it I sorta remember there might have been a comic cross-over with David Tennant's Doctor, right? Maybe I will have to look for it.



No, it was Matt Smiths Doctor.  I liked it .


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