# What is it about the moon?



## worldofmutes (Jan 22, 2022)

Sorry if this doesn’t belong here.
I read this book a few years ago, partially, *Asimov On Astronomy *by Isaac Asimov. Of course, common knowledge, right? The moon is pulling farther and farther away from the Earth, and millenia from now, it will be frozen in the sky, never moving.

But what on Earth gives its effect upon the inhabitants of it’s respective planet? (Earthlings, and rabbits. Don’t tell me rabbits are from Earth.) 

I have chronic insomnia already, but once that full moon shines I’m as loonie as a warder from the 1920’s, if you catch my drift. 

What kind of physics is behind this influence from the moon? Maybe that, primordial creatures of nocturnal hunting and scavenging as we are, it is in our nature to return to the wild when that porcelain bowl shines. What do you think?


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## AE35Unit (Jan 22, 2022)

It is said that women's menstrual cycle is tied in with the moon's cycle. 
And of course the tides come about because of it.


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## worldofmutes (Jan 22, 2022)

Right. 
There are 2 total lunar eclipses and 2 partial solar eclipses this year. Uh oh!








						Solar and Lunar Eclipses Worldwide – Next 10 years
					

List of where the next solar or lunar eclipse is visible. Check if you can see it in your city.




					www.timeanddate.com


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## AE35Unit (Jan 22, 2022)

worldofmutes said:


> Right.
> There are 2 total lunar eclipses and 2 partial solar eclipses this year. Uh oh!
> 
> 
> ...


Its ok, eclipses don't affect tides


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## BAYLOR (Jan 24, 2022)

There are cultures that have Moon god with their religions.  Fr example, in  the Egyptian pantheon there is the God  known as Thoth.


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## Venusian Broon (Jan 24, 2022)

Yes the moon is moving away from us - a result of loss of energy in the Earth-Moon system (tides and deformations caused by gravity are the friction) - and has been measured. 

As to what the 'final' state will be...we don't know. If the moon gets too far out, then other physical bodies can influence it more and perhaps these nudges will make the moon escape the Earth's gravity and go on a wander. (Or perhaps the 'nudges' will send it on a course of integration with the Earth...)

As for influences that the moon might have on Earthlings, other than tides, (and let's be fair, I believe the influence of a tide can be detected in a cup of tea - at least that's what I read in Lyall Watson's _Supernature! _So take what you want from that..._)_

Well, there definitely is some correlation with animal behaviour and the moon's cycle, possibly because a full moon does significantly increase the amount of light at night and is periodic. Hence useful for triggering behaviours that might benefit from such periodicity. Or from nocturnal creatures that have eyes and would like to hunt with more light etc.


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## Foxbat (Jan 24, 2022)

A lot of creatures navigate by moonlight. I think changes in the moon could have a profound effect on the foodchain.


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## Alex The G and T (Jan 24, 2022)

Owooooooo ooh!


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## AE35Unit (Jan 25, 2022)

Its where black cheese comes from...


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## mosaix (Jan 25, 2022)

I’m not clear on why a full moon causes extra high tides. Surely a full moon is just the moon not in shadow. The moon’s gravitational influence should remain unchanged, shadow or not.


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## Ursa major (Jan 25, 2022)

Venusian Broon said:


> I believe the influence of a tide can be detected in a cup of tea


If that doesn't cause a stir in certain circles, nothing will....


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## Stephen Palmer (Jan 25, 2022)

Check out this excellent lunar anthology.




__





						Eibonvale Press - The Once and Future Moon edited by Allen Ashley
					





					www.eibonvalepress.co.uk


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## CupofJoe (Jan 25, 2022)

The moon's orbit is slightly elliptical so maybe the perigee or apogee coincides with the full moon and hence the higher tide?


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## Venusian Broon (Jan 25, 2022)

mosaix said:


> I’m not clear on why a full moon causes extra high tides. Surely a full moon is just the moon not in shadow. The moon’s gravitational influence should remain unchanged, shadow or not.


It's because the sun-earth-moon system is aligned in a line at these times and the extra oomph that the sun gives the tides, makes it 'extra'.

If we didn't have a moon, we'd still get a (tiny) bit of a tide because of the sun.


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## Justin Swanton (Jan 25, 2022)

Venusian Broon said:


> It's because the sun-earth-moon system is aligned in a line at these times and the extra oomph that the sun gives the tides, makes it 'extra'.
> 
> If we didn't have a moon, we'd still get a (tiny) bit of a tide because of the sun.


Come to think of it, when the moon is full it's on the opposite side of the Earth from the sun, so the sun would tend to tone down out the moon's tidal pull. Tides should be greater when the sun and moon are on the same side of the Earth, i.e. during new moon.


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## Ursa major (Jan 25, 2022)

Justin Swanton said:


> Come to think of it, when the moon is full it's on the opposite side of the Earth from the sun, so the sun would tend to tone down out the moon's tidal pull.


It doesn't work like that.  If the Sun is pulling water towards it at longitude 0° and the moon is pulling water towards it at longitude 180°, they are both pulling water from the seas between them, not from, respectively, longitude 180° and longitude 0°.

See here and here for how it works.
​


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## Venusian Broon (Jan 25, 2022)

Ursa major said:


> It doesn't work like that.  If the Sun is pulling water towards it at longitude 0° and the moon is pulling water towards it at longitude 180°, they are both pulling water from the seas between them, not from, respectively, longitude 180° and longitude 0°.
> 
> See here and here for how it works.
> ​


Yeah, physics involving orbiting bodies can need an occasional cold towel around the head. Essentially both situations, new and full moon, produce the same forces on Earth's water/body.


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## Danny McG (Jan 25, 2022)

worldofmutes said:


> Don’t tell me rabbits are from Earth


Definitely not.


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## worldofmutes (Jan 25, 2022)

Good points and all.
But I don’t see what waves have to do with us. 
Gravity, sure. I just don’t understand it. There’s a lot in this world I don’t know much about.


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## CupofJoe (Jan 25, 2022)

Why does the ocean have waves?
					

In the U.S.




					oceanservice.noaa.gov
				



If NOAA don't know, then it is probably not worth knowing


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## Foxbat (Jan 26, 2022)

Living  next to the coast all my life, I’m left with the impression that the wind increases when the tide changes. If this does actually happen and it’s not my imagination, then the moon could be said to have an indirect effect on the weather.


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## AE35Unit (Jan 26, 2022)

Yes I'd say tides and winds are connected


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## Venusian Broon (Jan 26, 2022)

Foxbat said:


> Living  next to the coast all my life, I’m left with the impression that the wind increases when the tide changes. If this does actually happen and it’s not my imagination, then the moon could be said to have an indirect effect on the weather.



A quick google suggests that, yes - there is a gravitational impact of the moon on the atmosphere - given that it is a fluid, but that it is more-or-less swamped by the influence of the sun. In this case solar heating very much more influences behaviour of the atmosphere rather than gravitational forces. I found a figure quoted that the maximum increase in pressure caused by the lunar tidal forces, as it 'bulges' the air around with it, would be at maximum at the tropics and be of order 100 microbars or 0.01% of average surface pressure. 

So it is possible to measure it with sensitive enough instruments, however I doubt whether you'd actually notice it using your senses!


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## Danny McG (Jan 26, 2022)

This is putting me in mind of part of a story (probably Terry Pratchett or Robert Rankin, maybe neither!) where a person suffered from internal tides


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## BAYLOR (Jan 29, 2022)

Foxbat said:


> Living  next to the coast all my life, I’m left with the impression that the wind increases when the tide changes. If this does actually happen and it’s not my imagination, then the moon could be said to have an indirect effect on the weather.



If Earth had no Moon, we wouldn't exist as species.


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## Venusian Broon (Jan 29, 2022)

BAYLOR said:


> If Earth had no Moon, we wouldn't exist as species.


Sorry, ridiculous comment.   

If the Chicxulub asteroid had been 30 mins 'late' it would have missed Earth, and we wouldn't exist as a species. 

There are many, many things that if they hadn't existed or happened would have changed what we experience, or if we would be here!


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## BAYLOR (Jan 29, 2022)

Venusian Broon said:


> Sorry, ridiculous comment.
> 
> If the Chicxulub asteroid had been 30 mins 'late' it would have missed Earth, and we wouldn't exist as a species.
> 
> There are many, many things that if they hadn't existed or happened would have changed what we experience, or if we would be here!



Without the Moon , Earth would have no stable access which , would  have had huge  implication on how life would have evolved.


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## Venusian Broon (Jan 29, 2022)

BAYLOR said:


> Without the Moon , earth would have no stable access which  that would large implication on how life would have evolved.


This is an old concept that may not be correct, There are other stabilising mechanisms possible. And we don't really have any real data one way or the other!


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## BAYLOR (Jan 29, 2022)

Venusian Broon said:


> This is an old concept that may not be correct, There are other stabilising mechanisms possible. And we don't really have any real data one way or the other!



Sorry , This whole idea  just popped into my head. as result of  science show I saw sometime ago.


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## Venusian Broon (Jan 29, 2022)

BAYLOR said:


> Sorry , This whole idea  just popped into my head. as result of  science show I saw sometime ago.


No need to be sorry! If you think about it, (and assuming that the current theory of how we have a moon is correct), then if we had no moon then we would not have 'suffered' a massive cataclysmic collision with a mars sized body. Hence if that hadn't happened, gravity on 'Earth' would have been 10% less and potentially life would have started a good few (tens, hundreds?) million years earlier. 

What would such a different world have led to? 


Who knows!


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## BAYLOR (Jan 29, 2022)

Venusian Broon said:


> No need to be sorry! If you think about it, (and assuming that the current theory of how we have a moon is correct), then if we had no moon then we would not have 'suffered' a massive cataclysmic collision with a mars sized body. Hence if that hadn't happened, gravity on 'Earth' would have been 10% less and potentially life would have started a good few (tens, hundreds?) million years earlier.
> 
> What would such a different world have led to?
> 
> ...



On that show they said that had that  collision  never happened, that's it  possible that Earth's core would cooled  because of   the planet being smaller so, Earth would likely now be a dead or dying planet .  They think that this what happened on Mars given that the planet as about half the size of Earth, its core cooled  off an it lost it magnetic fields and most of its atmosphere and water. 

I can't be cert of this . Science is not my strong point.


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## Venusian Broon (Jan 29, 2022)

BAYLOR said:


> On that show they said that had that  collision  never happened, that's it  possible that Earth's core would cooled  because of   the planet being smaller so, Earth would likely now be a dead or dying planet .  They think that this what happened on Mars given that the planet as about half the size of Earth, its core cooled  off an it lost it magnetic fields and most of its atmosphere and water.
> 
> I can't be cert of this . Science is not my strong point.



Yeah the collision is a hypothesis- a good one in my opinion - but still must be treated with caution. 

I think the problem is 1) it's complicated 2) there's a lot we just don't know and 3) it's going to be difficult to find evidence on what actually happened. 

Yes, Mars is a lot smaller and hence _we believe _that whatever gives Earth its magnetic field probably cooled off in the red planets case. 

Venus (about the same mass as the proto-Earth before collision if that happened) does not have a magnetic field, but....it does not have a fast rotation and it seems that this might be crucial for 'stirring up' a magnetic field. 

Honestly, we just don't have enough physical examples to test hypothesises how worlds like Earth-Mar-Venus 'operate'. I believe   Let's get interstellar ships to get more data!


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## BAYLOR (Jan 29, 2022)

Venusian Broon said:


> Yeah the collision is a hypothesis- a good one in my opinion - but still must be treated with caution.
> 
> I think the problem is 1) it's complicated 2) there's a lot we just don't know and 3) it's going to be difficult to find evidence on what actually happened.
> 
> ...



That's the trouble with science . It usually  leaves you with far more questions than it does answers.

I think that a maned mission to Venus would be a far more difficult underrating given the projected extremely hostile surface conditions of that place . Outside the sun, it's the hottest place in the solar system.


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## AE35Unit (Jan 29, 2022)

BAYLOR said:


> If Earth had no Moon, we wouldn't exist as species.


Not necessarily


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## Ursa major (Jan 29, 2022)

I think I'm on much firmer ground in saying that without the Moon there wouldn't be any werewolves.


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## BAYLOR (Jan 29, 2022)

Ursa major said:


> I think I'm on much firmer ground in saying that without the Moon there wouldn't be any werewolves.



They'd be out of the job and would have to do something else for a living.


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## Wayne Mack (Jan 29, 2022)

I find it very logical that the moon is responsible for the human species.

"When the moon hits your eye Like a big pizza pie, that’s amore."
Amore is love.
Without love, there are no children.
If there are no children, a species dies out.
Ergo, without the moon, there is no human species. Are you going to doubt Dean Martin?


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## Fiberglass Cyborg (Jan 29, 2022)

Ursa major said:


> I think I'm on much firmer ground in saying that without the Moon there wouldn't be any werewolves.


Life gets very confusing for Martian werewolves. The werewolves who live in the floating cities of the gas giants have an even harder time of it- they're hardly ever human.


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## BAYLOR (Jan 30, 2022)

Wayne Mack said:


> I find it very logical that the moon is responsible for the human species.
> 
> "When the moon hits your eye Like a big pizza pie, that’s amore."
> Amore is love.
> ...



For the record Dean Martin _is not_ a scientist nor has he ever played one in the movies.  Now ,  Jerry Lewis on the other hand, has  actually played a scientist( *The Nutty Professor *) in the movies and an Alien (*A Visit to  A Small Planet*) and in the film  *The Way Way Out,*  did go to the moon.


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## StilLearning (Jan 30, 2022)

The Moon does have an effect on the weather - although not a big one: Science | AAAS
WRT making humans nutty - the idea that hits me first is that at full moon there's a big bright light in the sky, which makes it harder to sleep properly. I've been 48hr without sleep once, and hallucinated a giant, angular, multicoloured cow grazing on the roof of a nearby building. I don't think bright moonlight would do that to most people, but it might mess up your sleep cycle and affect your moods and thinking.


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## Droflet (Jan 30, 2022)

Ahh, in case this hasn't been mentioned, humans are around (?) eighty percent water, aren't we? Ergo ... lunacy during the full moon. Just sayin'.


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## Wayne Mack (Jan 30, 2022)

Back to a more serious note, I wonder whether there would be space flight without the moon? Would there be science fiction stories about space flight without the moon?

Without the moon being relatively nearby, would there ever have been a space race? Would rocket technology ever have progressed beyond putting satellites into orbit and missile technology?

Without the moon and Jules Verne's early trip to the moon, would space-faring science fiction ever have taken root? I can still see time travel stories and dystopian futures, but what about space flight? I can see the sightings of canals on Mars to spark a niche interest, but nothing like the Gemini and Apollo programs. At least in the US, launches and splashdowns were major public events, broadcast live on all of the public TV channels. I believe this sparked public interest in tales just as 'Star Trek' and 'Lost in Space.' I can see that this also led to the acceptance of space-based stories to follow.


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## AE35Unit (Jan 30, 2022)

Well imagine another world out there, peopled with an intelligent race, but there is no moon around their planet. I'm sure they would still have the urge to explore, and would have science fiction based around other worlds.


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## BAYLOR (Jan 30, 2022)

AE35Unit said:


> Well imagine another world out there, peopled with an intelligent race, but there is no moon around their planet. I'm sure they would still have the urge to explore, and would have science fiction based around other worlds.



*Tales From the Moonless World*.  That  would be a great title for a science fiction book.


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## StilLearning (Jan 30, 2022)

Wayne Mack said:


> Back to a more serious note, I wonder whether there would be space flight without the moon? Would there be science fiction stories about space flight without the moon?
> 
> Without the moon being relatively nearby, would there ever have been a space race? Would rocket technology ever have progressed beyond putting satellites into orbit and missile technology?
> 
> Without the moon and Jules Verne's early trip to the moon, would space-faring science fiction ever have taken root? I can still see time travel stories and dystopian futures, but what about space flight? I can see the sightings of canals on Mars to spark a niche interest, but nothing like the Gemini and Apollo programs. At least in the US, launches and splashdowns were major public events, broadcast live on all of the public TV channels. I believe this sparked public interest in tales just as 'Star Trek' and 'Lost in Space.' I can see that this also led to the acceptance of space-based stories to follow.


Well... 99.9% of space industry is various satellites orbiting Earth, and doing jobs that relate to stuff here on Earth (e.g weather forecasting) - it's practical stuff, not 'boldly go' exploration, and being in orbit is just a way of holding a stable super-high-altitude path so you can use the advantages of that super-high altitude. None of that changes without the Moon, so I suspect we'd arrive at having a satellite industry eventually. Manned spaceflight is another question, as it's always been heavily mixed up in that desire for adventure and exploration.


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## Foxbat (Jan 31, 2022)

I wonder if the lack of a moon might have had a significant effect on nocturnal hunters. Perhaps evolving without moonlight might mean more eyeless creatures and more reliance on echo-location. The owl, for example, relies on both sight and sound with its large face acting like a dish collecting noise from its prey. Imagine a large faced owl without eyes.

There are eyeless fish that live in caves so I think this could be a possibility.


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## BAYLOR (Jan 31, 2022)

And someday, there may  be people living on the moon in cities.  I would imagine that such places would be located , for safety reasons, underground.


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## Lumens (Jan 31, 2022)

How can they be underground if they're on the moon? That's like saying we'll only travel to the sun at night.


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## BAYLOR (Jan 31, 2022)

Lumens said:


> How can they be underground if they're on the moon? That's like saying we'll only travel to the sun at night.



You're confusing me. I think.  No, no , Im  definitely confused .


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## worldofmutes (Feb 1, 2022)

Droflet said:


> Ahh, in case this hasn't been mentioned, humans are around (?) eighty percent water, aren't we? Ergo ... lunacy during the full moon. Just sayin'.


I’m actually 3% water and 77% corn syrup


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## Danny McG (Feb 1, 2022)

If we hadn't a moon then where would cows jump?


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## Ursa major (Feb 1, 2022)

Danny McG said:


> If we hadn't a moon then where would cows jump?


On the other hand, we might have a better chance of keeping hold of our cutlery**.


** - You do realise that if the Fork hadn't run away with the Spoon, we wouldn't have had that abomination, the Spork.


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## Alex The G and T (Feb 1, 2022)

That is a runcible argument, indeed.


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## StilLearning (Feb 2, 2022)

worldofmutes said:


> I’m actually 3% water and 77% corn syrup


I'm probably too middle class to be substantially something as fun as corn syrup. I'd like to say I'm a shot of espresso, but it's much more likely I'm a cup of tea with 3 sugars.


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## worldofmutes (Feb 2, 2022)

You’re more corn than you think, @StilLearning . Michael Pollen wrote a book, The Omnivore’s Dilemma, about just how much corn we consume. Nearly everything we eat or drink is made out of corn, because it’s produced on such a large scale.


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## BAYLOR (Feb 2, 2022)

Danny McG said:


> If we hadn't a moon then where would cows jump?



As Benny Hill and Jack Wright explained in song '  The reason that the cow did jump was ,  the farmer had cold hands.


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## StilLearning (Feb 3, 2022)

worldofmutes said:


> You’re more corn than you think, @StilLearning . Michael Pollen wrote a book, The Omnivore’s Dilemma, about just how much corn we consume. Nearly everything we eat or drink is made out of corn, because it’s produced on such a large scale.


 A wee bit of real-life weirdness that has made my day - thank you worldofmutes.


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