# What if The Devonian /Permian Extinction Event Had Not Happened?



## BAYLOR (Feb 22, 2015)

What if that extinction had not occurred? What Mammal like reptiles like Dimetrodon had lived on ?   they were some warm blooded does that mean that more mammals would have likely evolved from them ?Would anything like mankind have arisen from that line?  Would the Dinosaurs have come along?  

What about the ocean life, if the species that would gone extinct had not ? 

How different might the here and now be ?


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## anno (Feb 23, 2015)

Convergent evolution would probably occur,so inherent characteristics would pass on and we would still have the common ancestor route,but stuff may be more erm,scaly...

Have we discovered or discussed the Aquatic Ape theory round here?
Forgive me I'm still a newbie!


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## Teresa Edgerton (Feb 23, 2015)

anno said:


> Have we discovered or discussed the Aquatic Ape theory round here?



I think it's been mentioned in passing (possibly by me) but there wasn't much interest.  I don't know why not.


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## BAYLOR (Feb 23, 2015)

anno said:


> Convergent evolution would probably occur,so inherent characteristics would pass on and we would still have the common ancestor route,but stuff may be more erm,scaly...
> 
> Have we discovered or discussed the Aquatic Ape theory round here?
> Forgive me I'm still a newbie!




There were mammal like reptiles , so its possible that warmblooded  animal still evolve but at an earlier date.

Mermaids ? I recall seeing a program dealing with it.


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## anno (Feb 23, 2015)

No not mermaids,some very prominent biologists have the theory that we evolved from the sea and that certain morphological characteristics we have are a direct result including bipedalism and the placement of our nostrils,it also explains why the ageing process throws up issues with our spine and hips - Google it,in a previous incarnation when I lectured I used it to get students to accept other theories and rationalise facts and most importantly ask questions.


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## anno (Feb 23, 2015)

http://www.primitivism.com/aquatic-ape.htm

Elaine Morgan is one of the main drivers of this...


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## BAYLOR (Feb 23, 2015)

anno said:


> No not mermaids,some very prominent biologists have the theory that we evolved from the sea and that certain morphological characteristics we have are a direct result including bipedalism and the placement of our nostrils,it also explains why the ageing process throws up issues with our spine and hips - Google it,in a previous incarnation when I lectured I used it to get students to accept other theories and rationalise facts and most importantly ask questions.



The amphibian like creatures that gave rise to the reptiles that gave rise to the mammal like line that gave rise to us is probably the only link we have to the sea. I doubt  man evolved directly from any sea form, there is no evidence support this idea.


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## steelyglint (Feb 23, 2015)

Neal Asher's 'Ian Cormac' novels feature an alien 'probe' that is vast, highly intelligent and very tricky. It creates a race of intelligent beings that are what it says would eventually have evolved from the dinosaurs. Very interesting 'aliens'. Asher's stuff can't be more highly recommended. The man is, as one critic said, 'a national treasure'.

.


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## steelyglint (Feb 23, 2015)

BAYLOR said:


> The amphibian like creatures that gave rise to the reptiles that gave rise to the mammal like line that gave rise to us is probably the only link we have to the sea. I doubt  man evolved directly from any sea form, there is no evidence support this idea.


 
There is the remnant of our third eyelid, like a bird's. Its the little lump at the inner corner of your eye. And our hands are partially webbed between the fingers - to quite an extent on some people. The base of the spine shows evidence we once sported a tail. If those are leftover evidence of something bird-like in our ancestry we could trace ourselves all the way back to dinosaurs. But it is most likely they're remnants of an aquatic ancestor.

.


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## BAYLOR (Feb 23, 2015)

steelyglint said:


> There is the remnant of our third eyelid, like a bird's. Its the little lump at the inner corner of your eye. And our hands are partially webbed between the fingers - to quite an extent on some people. The base of the spine shows evidence we once sported a tail. If those are leftover evidence of something bird-like in our ancestry we could trace ourselves all the way back to dinosaurs. But it is most likely they're remnants of an aquatic ancestor.
> 
> .





Remnant characteristic do persist for millions of years in some cases,  The Tuatara lizard has remains of  third eye , The egg tooth that birds have at their hatchings.   Pythons have the remains of Hind legs .  The third third eyelid could be from the amphibian ancestor of man , The Tail from the arboreal part of our line. The Hand webbing is a bit of a puzzler though ,There are some mammals that do posses them, and they tend spend some time in the water.


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## anno (Feb 23, 2015)

BAYLOR said:


> The amphibian like creatures that gave rise to the reptiles that gave rise to the mammal like line that gave rise to us is probably the only link we have to the sea. I doubt  man evolved directly from any sea form, there is no evidence support this idea.


To be honest there is very little good evidence either way,hence those old missing link arguments the Common Ancestor was an aquatic form if we believe Linean classification or Cladistics,let's not go down the fundamentalism route,I have taught Evolution and Darwinism to extremist Christians who said they would agree to pass the exam but wouldn't except the theory


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## BAYLOR (Feb 23, 2015)

anno said:


> To be honest there is very little good evidence either way,hence those old missing link arguments the Common Ancestor was an aquatic form if we believe Linean classification or Cladistics,let's not go down the fundamentalism route,I have taught Evolution and Darwinism to extremist Christians who said they would agree to pass the exam but wouldn't except the theory




The big problem is there are huge gaps in the fossil records  some of them spanning millions of years. It's possible that whole lines of species  may have arisen  and gone extinct in those gaps.  Consequently We'd  have no ways of knowing that they ever existed .


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## anno (Feb 23, 2015)

True but I agree with Bill Hicks on this one the idea of a'trickster'God planting bones for Paleontologists is a lot more far fetched than giant reptiles!

We live and learn,I remember Bob Backkers pioneering work about warm blooded dinosaurs being laughed out of the halls of academia,this is now accepted fact by most.

Incidentally he wrote a Sci-fi book 'Raptor Red' (he was a better Paleontologists than an author in my humble opinion!)

Great thread!


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## anno (Feb 23, 2015)

West of Eden is a good source by Harrison!

The other thing as a keen Birder from the age of 15 I don't think they all died out in Evolutionary terms they are still here and still fascinating.


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## BAYLOR (Feb 23, 2015)

anno said:


> True but I agree with Bill Hicks on this one the idea of a'trickster'God planting bones for Paleontologists is a lot more far fetched than giant reptiles!
> 
> We live and learn,I remember Bob Backkers pioneering work about warm blooded dinosaurs being laughed out of the halls of academia,this is now accepted fact by most.
> 
> ...



Your posts are pretty good , makes you think. Please keep posting.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Feb 23, 2015)

I read Elaine Morgan's book (years and years ago) and it was my understanding that her theory was that our ancestors evolved from apes on land, then something drove them to live in the sea for the long ages necessary for certain adaptations to occur (like the pattern of our body hair, which more closely resembles that of aquatic mammals like seals, then it does land animals), before eventually returning to the land.

It is an interesting theory.


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## Ray McCarthy (Feb 23, 2015)

steelyglint said:


> intelligent beings that are what it says would eventually have evolved from the dinosaurs.


That would be the Corvid family. Extremely smart. (Rooks, Magpies, Hoodie Crow, Raven etc), maybe smarter than many primates. Rooks can count, recognise people, long term memory and improvise tools. They also mimic. They'll band together to chase of predators such as Owls or hawks.


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## BAYLOR (Feb 23, 2015)

Ray McCarthy said:


> That would be the Corvid family. Extremely smart. (Rooks, Magpies, Hoodie Crow, Raven etc), maybe smarter than many primates. Rooks can count, recognise people, long term memory and improvise tools. They also mimic. They'll band together to chase of predators such as Owls or hawks.



Why didn't Corvids evolve further then they did?

One Dino species  that was a candidate for evolving to higher intelligence was Troodon. It Bipedal and possesed binocular vision, a decent sized brain. It had possibilities.


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## Ray McCarthy (Feb 23, 2015)

BAYLOR said:


> Why didn't Corvids evolve further then they did?


They are highly evolved modern Dinosaurs and quite like being as they are.


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## BAYLOR (Feb 23, 2015)

Ray McCarthy said:


> They are highly evolved modern Dinosaurs and quite like being as they are.



They're niche players then.


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## anno (Feb 23, 2015)

One of Bakkers party pieces was to invite students around for thanksgiving and carve the Turkey up whilst drawing comparisons to Dinosaur morphology!
Corvids are amazing creatures but Parrots are also very adaptive and show reasoning beyond brain capacity but even some primitive creatures like cephalopods show amazing skills in reasoning.


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## BAYLOR (Feb 23, 2015)

anno said:


> One of Bakkers party pieces was to invite students around for thanksgiving and carve the Turkey up whilst drawing comparisons to Dinosaur morphology!
> Corvids are amazing creatures but Parrots are also very adaptive and show reasoning beyond brain capacity but even some primitive creatures like cephalopods show amazing skills in reasoning.




It's amazing the way Parrots can  pick up and repeat words.

Cephalopods are very clever at problem solving.  The way they can open a jar to get at the crab inside.


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## Brian G Turner (Feb 23, 2015)

anno said:


> Have we discovered or discussed the Aquatic Ape theory round here?



I've just done a search, and am really surprised that I can't fine a thread dedicated to this. Perhaps I'm using the wrong search terms...

Anyway, another aquatic adaption is when our skin wrinkles when it gets wet. I'm sure I posted a link to the BBC or New Scientist website about that - as rather than caused by fluid loss or gain, it's been tracked directly to the parasympathetic nervous system.



anno said:


> primitive creatures like cephalopods



Heresy! There's nothing primitive about cephalods. They even came up with a better design for the eye. Now if only we could speak "colour" then we might understand them better. That and not having to chant Yah, yah, Cthulhu fhtagn!


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## Ray McCarthy (Feb 23, 2015)

http://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/549984/page-3#post-1854816


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## BAYLOR (Feb 23, 2015)

Brian Turner said:


> I've just done a search, and am really surprised that I can't fine a thread dedicated to this. Perhaps I'm using the wrong search terms...
> 
> Anyway, another aquatic adaption is when our skin wrinkles when it gets wet. I'm sure I posted a link to the BBC or New Scientist website about that - as rather than caused by fluid loss or gain, it's been tracked directly to the parasympathetic nervous system.
> 
> ...




I don't think Cthulu would appreciate being compared to a squid  .


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## anno (Feb 23, 2015)

Sorry dude a guy in Innsmouth told me they were primitive...


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## Ray McCarthy (Feb 23, 2015)

Brian Turner said:


> There's nothing primitive about cephalods


Copper based blood?
Obviously degenerate descendants of marooned Aliens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemocyanin


> To cope with the _super_-low oxygen levels in the deep ocean, the octopus instead uses a copper-based transporter protein called hemocyanin. This is much more efficient in keeping their bodies properly oxygenated. And the copper in hemocyanin makes their blood run blue. Cephalopods aren’t the only animals with hemocyanin. Horseshoe crabs, lobsters and a handful of other invertebrates also make use of this substance instead of hemoglobin.


I think they need two hearts also.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...-zero-temps-thanks-to-specialized-blue-blood/


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## BAYLOR (Feb 23, 2015)

Ray McCarthy said:


> Copper based blood?
> Obviously degenerate descendants of marooned Aliens.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemocyanin
> 
> ...




There was a documentary called *Wild in the Future* which projected the notion that Octopuses would evolve to become sentient highly intelligent land dwellers and  become the dominate intelligence on earth.


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## anno (Feb 23, 2015)

Great book!
Squid are cool!


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## BAYLOR (Feb 23, 2015)

anno said:


> View attachment 22912 Great book!
> Squid are cool!View attachment 22912



Yes A  very cool and terrifying creature, and at 60 feet or more, not something you'd want to run into in the ocean.


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## steelyglint (Feb 23, 2015)

Ray McCarthy said:


> That would be the Corvid family. Extremely smart. (Rooks, Magpies, Hoodie Crow, Raven etc), maybe smarter than many primates. Rooks can count, recognise people, long term memory and improvise tools. They also mimic. They'll band together to chase of predators such as Owls or hawks.


 
Not really. What 'Dragon' (the alien probe) came up with was reptilian. What an intelligent product of dinosaur evolution might have been like had they not evolved into birds - the ones that survived, anyway. They didn't all evolve into birds, just the ones that were headed that way - archaeopteryx and such. 'Dragon's' product was more of a velociraptor with a more human shape.

.


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## Stephen Palmer (Feb 24, 2015)

BAYLOR said:


> Your posts are pretty good , makes you think. Please keep posting.


 Agreed.


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## Stephen Palmer (Feb 24, 2015)

There was a programme on BBC recently about animal intelligence (hosted by Chris Somebody) which, if it is still on iPlayer, I recommend to you all. The programme on corvids was particularly good.


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## Ray McCarthy (Feb 26, 2015)

This is strange crow behaviour.

It's well established that Rooks know which humans may carry a shotgun (enemies) and don't object to people feeding them (friends).
My dad as a boy had a pet Raven. Nothing particularly would have prevented it leaving (he "rescued it" as a fledgeling)

But this seems strange.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31604026

Another article recently revealed the idea of Magpies collecting shiny objects may be a myth, or perhaps only apply to juveniles.


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## Venusian Broon (Feb 26, 2015)

Ray McCarthy said:


> This is strange crow behaviour.
> 
> It's well established that Rooks know which humans may carry a shotgun (enemies) and don't object to people feeding them (friends).
> My dad as a boy had a pet Raven. Nothing particularly would have prevented it leaving (he "rescued it" as a fledgeling)



From literature there is a talking Raven in Dickens' _Barnaby Rudge _so they were the African Grey Parrots of their day - in the 1840s - (I suspect the bird were so clever that they disappeared into the background when they realised that humans had taken a liking to cutting up brains and experimenting on them. Hence that particular meme disappearing from our literature, and our knowledge...)


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## Ray McCarthy (Feb 26, 2015)

My Dad's talked and that was late 1930s or the 1940s
Rooks imitate tractors and chainsaws. No idea why.

I think it's illegal now to take a wild bird / animal and keep it as a pet, but I could be wrong.


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## Ray McCarthy (Feb 26, 2015)

*Quoth the Raven*
Edgar Allan Poe 1809–1849

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore—
  While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
“’Tis some visitor,” I muttered, “tapping at my chamber door—
 Only this and nothing more.”

  Ah, distinctly I remember it was in the bleak December;
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
  Eagerly I wished the morrow;—vainly I had sought to borrow
  From my books surcease of sorrow—sorrow for the lost Lenore—
For the rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Lenore—
 Nameless _here_ for evermore.

  And the silken, sad, uncertain rustling of each purple curtain
Thrilled me—filled me with fantastic terrors never felt before;
  So that now, to still the beating of my heart, I stood repeating
  “’Tis some visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door—
Some late visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door;—
 This it is and nothing more.”

  Presently my soul grew stronger; hesitating then no longer,
“Sir,” said I, “or Madam, truly your forgiveness I implore;
  But the fact is I was napping, and so gently you came rapping,
  And so faintly you came tapping, tapping at my chamber door,
That I scarce was sure I heard you”—here I opened wide the door;—
 Darkness there and nothing more.

  Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing,
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before;
  But the silence was unbroken, and the stillness gave no token,
  And the only word there spoken was the whispered word, “Lenore?”
This I whispered, and an echo murmured back the word, “Lenore!”—
 Merely this and nothing more.

  Back into the chamber turning, all my soul within me burning,
Soon again I heard a tapping somewhat louder than before.
  “Surely,” said I, “surely that is something at my window lattice;
 Let me see, then, what thereat is, and this mystery explore—
Let my heart be still a moment and this mystery explore;—
 ’Tis the wind and nothing more!”

  Open here I flung the shutter, when, with many a flirt and flutter,
In there stepped a stately Raven of the saintly days of yore;
  Not the least obeisance made he; not a minute stopped or stayed he;
  But, with mien of lord or lady, perched above my chamber door—
Perched upon a bust of Pallas just above my chamber door—
 Perched, and sat, and nothing more.

Then this ebony bird beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,
By the grave and stern decorum of the countenance it wore,
“Though thy crest be shorn and shaven, thou,” I said, “art sure no craven,
Ghastly grim and ancient Raven wandering from the Nightly shore—
Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night’s Plutonian shore!”
 Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

  Much I marvelled this ungainly fowl to hear discourse so plainly,
Though its answer little meaning—little relevancy bore;
  For we cannot help agreeing that no living human being
  Ever yet was blessed with seeing bird above his chamber door—
Bird or beast upon the sculptured bust above his chamber door,
 With such name as “Nevermore.”

  But the Raven, sitting lonely on the placid bust, spoke only
That one word, as if his soul in that one word he did outpour.
  Nothing farther then he uttered—not a feather then he fluttered—
  Till I scarcely more than muttered “Other friends have flown before—
On the morrow _he_ will leave me, as my Hopes have flown before.”
 Then the bird said “Nevermore.”

  Startled at the stillness broken by reply so aptly spoken,
“Doubtless,” said I, “what it utters is its only stock and store
  Caught from some unhappy master whom unmerciful Disaster
  Followed fast and followed faster till his songs one burden bore—
Till the dirges of his Hope that melancholy burden bore
 Of ‘Never—nevermore’.”

  But the Raven still beguiling all my fancy into smiling,
Straight I wheeled a cushioned seat in front of bird, and bust and door;
  Then, upon the velvet sinking, I betook myself to linking
  Fancy unto fancy, thinking what this ominous bird of yore—
What this grim, ungainly, ghastly, gaunt, and ominous bird of yore
 Meant in croaking “Nevermore.”

  This I sat engaged in guessing, but no syllable expressing
To the fowl whose fiery eyes now burned into my bosom’s core;
  This and more I sat divining, with my head at ease reclining
  On the cushion’s velvet lining that the lamp-light gloated o’er,
But whose velvet-violet lining with the lamp-light gloating o’er,
_She_ shall press, ah, nevermore!

  Then, methought, the air grew denser, perfumed from an unseen censer
Swung by Seraphim whose foot-falls tinkled on the tufted floor.
  “Wretch,” I cried, “thy God hath lent thee—by these angels he hath sent thee
  Respite—respite and nepenthe from thy memories of Lenore;
Quaff, oh quaff this kind nepenthe and forget this lost Lenore!”
 Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

  “Prophet!” said I, “thing of evil!—prophet still, if bird or devil!—
Whether Tempter sent, or whether tempest tossed thee here ashore,
  Desolate yet all undaunted, on this desert land enchanted—
  On this home by Horror haunted—tell me truly, I implore—
Is there—_is_ there balm in Gilead?—tell me—tell me, I implore!”
 Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

  “Prophet!” said I, “thing of evil!—prophet still, if bird or devil!
By that Heaven that bends above us—by that God we both adore—
  Tell this soul with sorrow laden if, within the distant Aidenn,
  It shall clasp a sainted maiden whom the angels name Lenore—
Clasp a rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Lenore.”
 Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

  “Be that word our sign of parting, bird or fiend!” I shrieked, upstarting—
“Get thee back into the tempest and the Night’s Plutonian shore!
  Leave no black plume as a token of that lie thy soul hath spoken!
  Leave my loneliness unbroken!—quit the bust above my door!
Take thy beak from out my heart, and take thy form from off my door!”
 Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

  And the Raven, never flitting, still is sitting, _still_ is sitting
On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door;
  And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon’s that is dreaming,
  And the lamp-light o’er him streaming throws his shadow on the floor;
And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
 Shall be lifted—nevermore!


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## BAYLOR (Feb 26, 2015)

Me thinks this thread is going to the Birds.


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## Ray McCarthy (Feb 27, 2015)

Just proves they are Dinosaurs.


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## Stephen Palmer (Feb 27, 2015)

Alan Parsons' version. Excellent.


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## BAYLOR (Feb 28, 2015)

If the Devonian extinct event hadn't occurred would birds have even evolved?


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## BAYLOR (Jun 14, 2015)

Hard to imagine how empty the ocean became as a result.


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## Mirannan (Jun 21, 2015)

Venusian Broon said:


> From literature there is a talking Raven in Dickens' _Barnaby Rudge _so they were the African Grey Parrots of their day - in the 1840s - (I suspect the bird were so clever that they disappeared into the background when they realised that humans had taken a liking to cutting up brains and experimenting on them. Hence that particular meme disappearing from our literature, and our knowledge...)



Quoth the raven nevermore. (Note the lack of quote marks.)


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## BAYLOR (Jun 21, 2015)

Venusian Broon said:


> From literature there is a talking Raven in Dickens' _Barnaby Rudge _so they were the African Grey Parrots of their day - in the 1840s - (I suspect the bird were so clever that they disappeared into the background when they realised that humans had taken a liking to cutting up brains and experimenting on them. Hence that particular meme disappearing from our literature, and our knowledge...)




So the world is being by a secret Cabal of Grey Parrots? Hm, that would might explain a lot of things


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## BAYLOR (Dec 14, 2015)

Ive been reading *When Life Nearly Died * (The Greatest Mass Extinction of all Time ) by Michael Benton .   I truly misunderstood the scale of this extinction . The Cretaceous extinction which was pretty bad,  pales in comparison.


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## Stephen Palmer (Dec 16, 2015)

BAYLOR said:


> Ive been reading *When Life Nearly Died * (The Greatest Mass Extinction of all Time ) by Michael Benton .   I truly misunderstood the scale of this extinction . The Cretaceous extinction which was pretty bad,  pales in comparison.



Excellent book, that.


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## hardsciencefanagain (Dec 19, 2015)

I humbly point to the extinction of the "ediacaran" fauna(flora?).
i wonder what would happen if "extinction" was renamed "biodiversity bottleneck"ör
"stratigraphic incompleteness".


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## BAYLOR (Dec 20, 2015)

hardsciencefanagain said:


> I humbly point to the extinction of the "ediacaran" fauna(flora?).
> i wonder what would happen if "extinction" was renamed "biodiversity bottleneck"ör
> "stratigraphic incompleteness".



It would be called something other then evolution?


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## BAYLOR (May 16, 2016)

Synapsids family  would have contused probably well up into the modern era.


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## Stephen Palmer (May 23, 2016)

Some news...


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## BAYLOR (May 23, 2016)

Stephen Palmer said:


> Some news...



Interesting stuf about eh Ichthyosaurs



They died out completely about 90 million years ago. No one is sure why, disease or  out competed by other species, environmental changes they couldn't adapt to.


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## Devon.Q.Ly (Jul 26, 2016)

Devonian extinction you say...... intersting name


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## BAYLOR (Jul 27, 2016)

Devon.Q.Ly said:


> Devonian extinction you say...... intersting name



And where were you on that day 250 Million years ago that particular  extinction began? We'd all like to know .


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## Chinspinner (Jul 27, 2016)

anno said:


> Convergent evolution would probably occur,so inherent characteristics would pass on and we would still have the common ancestor route,but stuff may be more erm,scaly...
> 
> Have we discovered or discussed the Aquatic Ape theory round here?
> Forgive me I'm still a newbie!



I haven't read all the responses, but I would say this, while two eyes, four limbs, circulatory and muscular skeletal systems etc happen multiple times, human levels of intelligence have happened perhaps once or twice. Yes intelligence is a sliding scale, but a crow, dolphin, ape is far removed from a human. And the niche was only enabled by the loss of sh*t scary predators. So my guess would be that it may have resulted in a more primitive world, full of familiar creatures.


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## BAYLOR (Jul 27, 2016)

Chinspinner said:


> I haven't read all the responses, but I would say this, while two eyes, four limbs, circulatory and muscular skeletal systems etc happen multiple times, human levels of intelligence have happened perhaps once or twice. Yes intelligence is a sliding scale, but a crow, dolphin, ape is far removed from a human. And the niche was only enabled by the loss of sh*t scary predators. So my guess would be that it may have resulted in a more primitive world, full of familiar creatures.



  in Devonian / Permian period you had animals like Dimetrodon which was rather large and fearsome land predator and the season you the 30 foot armored  monster fish Dunkleosteus  which was as fearsome as any sharks that ever lived.


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