# Books less engrossing on a kindle



## Jo Zebedee (Oct 30, 2014)

I found this interesting:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-e-readers-shown-enjoyable-harder-follow.html

I certainly find I don't enjoy a book on an e-reader anywhere near as much as I do a paper copy. I used to out this down to critting a lot on screen so reading anything published was like critical reading, but over time I've come to believe it's more than that - that I simply don't find e-reading the immersive experience a paper book offers, from touch and sound and even smell (yes, I have been known to sniff the odd book, I'm afraid, especially leather-bound). So it was nice this might be backed up with research and I'm not completely luddite-ish nuts.


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## AnyaKimlin (Oct 30, 2014)

To be honest I don't notice the difference.  Once I get started on the story I don't really care where I am or what I am holding.  It surprised me I didn't expect to prefer my ereader but it's easier to hold and the print is the size I choose etc


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## J-Sun (Oct 30, 2014)

springs said:


> I'm not completely luddite-ish nuts.



I figure this was somewhat tongue-in-cheek but, still, it's not at all luddite-ish. We have developed all kinds of nuclear weapons and bioweapons but _choose not to deploy them_ because they're _bad tech_. (I'm not equating these three things  - just pointing out that we can love our MRI scanners and spaceships and whatnot and still not blindly deploy _every_ piece of tech that comes along.)


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## thaddeus6th (Oct 31, 2014)

I do agree with the article. There's a particular smell books have (a few Chinese classics I own have a distinctive smell which immediately takes me back to Nine Dragons Shi Jin and Short Arse Wang [genuine character name, in one translation]) and I prefer the feel of a real book in my hands.

But it's not a critical difference. E-books are cheaper, more convenient for delivery and take up (barring the e-reader itself) zero space. It doesn't make a significant difference to me. I prefer histories to be 'real', because the maps, photos and so forth may not look as good on an e-reader, but usually buy fantasy electronically.

In the future, technology may mean maps can be more detailed on e-readers, so maybe that'll change my mind. But I like owning books that I know I can always read, without needing a fully charged battery.


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## Ray McCarthy (Oct 31, 2014)

I prefer to have real books. I was surprised that I found the eBooks slightly easier to read on Kindle DGX compared to Paperwhite (better but smaller screen) once I got used to extra weight due to larger screen. I got the DXG for PDFs. *But I don't find either Kindle reduces my enjoyment of reading books (Novels).*
Magazines, technical books, Datasheets etc are much inferior on Kindle due to slower random access, slower "bookmarks", lack of resolution/size even on DXG and MUCH slower page turning for images and PDFs than real eBooks.

If your eye sight is poorer then large Kindle DXG is advantage over standard paperbacks with 8point print or less.


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## Brian G Turner (Oct 31, 2014)

The New Scientist quote claims that people on eReaders are multitasking, ie, distracted to visit YouTube. But that's impossible on a basic Kindle - they're making a comment specifically about smartphones and tablets, rather than eReaders.


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## farntfar (Oct 31, 2014)

I find reading e-books (on a tablet, I don't have kindle except as software) so much easier, that I read more easily with it  than I did with books.

Sitting in an armchair in the evening, maybe a book has that special bookiness, but away from home (travelling or during lunchbreaks etc) or reading in bed, where many books are heavy and awkward, the tablet is so much easier.
I don't find I forget the plot, and can generally find a page in an e-book if I want.
I haven't got too much trouble with zooming in to maps on the tablet either.

I might also have been more convinced by the article if the Daily Mail hadn't thought that the way to convince me was a picture of a girl in a bikini reading a book on a beach, but I suppose that's just the Mail


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## Jo Zebedee (Oct 31, 2014)

Brian Turner said:


> The New Scientist quote claims that people on eReaders are multitasking, ie, distracted to visit YouTube. But that's impossible on a basic Kindle - they're making a comment specifically about smartphones and tablets, rather than eReaders.



Actually, I think that point, about being distracted, referred to typing on screen?


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## Ray McCarthy (Oct 31, 2014)

Brian Turner said:


> eReaders are multitasking, ie, distracted to visit YouTube. But that's impossible on a basic Kindle - they're making a comment specifically about smartphones and tablets


IMO there is NO comparison in usability between a real eInk eReader and an LCD (or AMOLED) screen with an App, even it's a semi dedicated tablet (Kindle Fire and similar).


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## Parson (Oct 31, 2014)

Reading novels on my Kindle is a joy. I can detect no greater distractedness on my part. When I'm reading for study the lack of being able to find my way to the appropriate quote rapidly is frustrating. But being able to cut and paste into a document more than makes up for that.


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## Vertigo (Nov 3, 2014)

First I have to comment on the appalling quality of that article. For such a short piece of work (it was mostly random pictures of people reading stuff) it had an astonishingly large number of typos/missing words in it and it seemed totally unable to distinguish between an ereader and a computer.

For myself I have no problem with reading on an ereader, and, in fact, I am less distracted because I don't have to keep moving a bookmark or adjusting my grip on the book as it becomes steadily more uncomfortable and I'm no longer struggling to read as my poor aged eyes get tired.

With regard to the research saying you remember where stuff is on the page or what page something was on. Well of course but how is that a distinguishing feature of pbooks? On my ereader the same text always appears in the same place on the same page. Just because it is an ebook the text doesn't wander around to a different place each time I look for it! Does Fiona Macrae actually know what ebooks and ereaders are? The article does not lead me to think so.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Nov 3, 2014)

I think that aged eyes are a real factor for some of us.  I do prefer paper-and-ink books when the type is large enough, but in a lot of books, especially old paperbacks, it's tiny.  Squinting and trying to make out the words, not to mention eye-strain, are so distracting that they make reading less engrossing.  Fortunately, this is not a problem with my Kindle where I can adjust the size of the words.


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## BAYLOR (Nov 3, 2014)

Call old fashioned, but i like books.


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## psikeyhackr (Nov 13, 2014)

It sounds psychological.  Look hard enough and you may find people who prefer to read by candle light.


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## Mouse (Nov 13, 2014)

There's no difference whatsoever.


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## Ray McCarthy (Nov 13, 2014)

psikeyhackr said:


> candle light


Certainly works for a Kindle in a Power Cut.
I tried the chemical party bracelet glow sticks (18 for €2) and it needs about four. They seem to last nearly 12 hours.


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## Nick B (Nov 13, 2014)

I have to agree with Mouse, once I start reading it is my mind that takes over entirely. I was trying to explain recently (but it is hard to do) that when reading, if the story is good, I stop seeing the words. The story plays out in my mind entirely, the actual physical job of reading words seems to become subconscious. Hard to explain but that's the only way I can describe it, and that is how I judge a book, if all I see is words on a page then the story hasn't grasped me enough.
The medium on which I read seems to make no difference whatsoever, and I firmly believed I would not like an e-reader until I used one. Oh, and I actually just use my phone and the kindle app, means I can read in bright sunlight or pitch black night with equal ease.


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## psikeyhackr (Nov 14, 2014)

Quellist said:


> if the story is good, I stop seeing the words. The story plays out in my mind entirely, the actual physical job of reading words seems to become subconscious. Hard to explain but that's the only way I can describe it, and that is how I judge a book, if all I see is words on a page then the story hasn't grasped me enough.



I actually have somewhat of a dislike for reading.  So the story has to be good enough to get me beyond the dislike.  So I kind of freak out when people say a book doesn't get good until about 200 pages.  I'm thinking, "ARE YOU CRAZY!?!?"  If it is not good enough by page 50 I give up on it.  

That is also my problem with people who talk about how good the "writing" is.  To me analyzing the writing is just turning the reading into work.  Unless the writing is exceptionally good or exceptionally bad I don't really notice it.  It is about the story and how well the characters integrate into the story.  Bujold is one of the few writers with characters good enough to stand out significantly from the story.  But that takes more writing.  Heinlein has lots more stuff happening in fewer words.

psik


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## Jo Zebedee (Nov 14, 2014)

But when you don't notice the writing - isn't that when we know it's good? 

I also have to politely disagree with Mouse - for me there is a huge difference between reading on my kindle app ( and from what I've tried on others' kindles), and I find it horrid, frankly. But I have dry-eyes syndrome which isn't helped by the time I stare at screens. But, bottom line, the e-versions simply don't feel like I'm reading a book.


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## Ray McCarthy (Nov 14, 2014)

Quellist said:


> if the story is good, I stop seeing the words. The story plays out in my mind entirely, the actual physical job of reading words seems to become subconscious.


My daughter says she doesn't need film versions.
Watching a film is very much less emotional effort for me than reading. I agree, if I enjoy the story I'm not very concious of the words. So I get tripped up by unfamiliar words impossible to define from context and large bursts of foreign text (Villette and The Professor lately) or Poetry. I have to read poetry out loud, or ideally hear it from someone else. I've rarely ever coped with simply internally  reading poetry or lyrics. 

I can't use a eReader app  or read a book as PDF on laptop for a novel. A physical Kindle or similar (*eInk*, not fire) is the only alternate to paper I have found that works for me. In 45 years I think my Kindle DXG is the best gadget I ever got for relaxing (My current 1600 x 1200 15" non-reflective laptop, is the best ever thing I have for content creation. It's over 12 years old!  I do have a relatively new computer too with 8G RAM, Core 2 Duo, 2Terabyte HDD and massive video card as well as a dedicated PC for Video. I have some very nice 17" CRTs and modern LCD panels too for computers. None of my newer laptops come close to the old one for screen quality.)


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## David Evil Overlord (Nov 14, 2014)

I've become so used to reading on my kindle, I've sometimes pressed the edge of the page on a paper book, and wondered why the page won't turn...oh, right...


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## psikeyhackr (Nov 14, 2014)

springs said:


> But when you don't notice the writing - isn't that when we know it's good?



I am inclined to say yes but I think that is an oversimplification based on my biases.  I think Mack Reynolds is a poor writer but a great science fiction story teller.  Now and then I will hit a bump in one of his stories and think, "that is really poor writing."  I didn't get that with Andre Norton.  But I mostly decided her stuff was boring in high school before I discovered Reynolds.  I just skimmed over some more of her works when I found them in Project Gutenberg.

So a reader has to decide for him/herself what is "Good" an the basis of his/her value system.

So many people seem to talk as though we are all supposed to have the same value system.  I acknowledge that people have the right to not give a damn about the science in science fiction.  I just kill them with my gamma ray laser.  

psik


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## Nick B (Nov 14, 2014)

Also, one of the main reasons i love my kindle app is that i have a pocket full of books ALL the time, no need to even think to pick anything else up. Got five minutes spare, out comes the phone to read. Waitin for the wife? Time to read. Dinner break? Downtime? Bored at work? Out comes my pocket library.
My most recent purchases were the entire works of poe and lovecraft, and for the princely sum of £ 1.76 for the pair, well... I'm looking to get some wheatley next, hopefuly nice and cheap


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## Ray McCarthy (Nov 14, 2014)

I must get a bigger pocket for my Kindle DXG 
But actually as I rarely go anywhere except to do something that precludes reading, it's not a problem.


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## psikeyhackr (Nov 14, 2014)

Ray McCarthy said:


> I must get a bigger pocket for my Kindle DXG
> But actually as I rarely go anywhere except to do something that precludes reading, it's not a problem.



That is why I think 7" tablets should be the most popular.  It just fits into most of my pants' pockets and doesn't need power like a phone.  If the battery dies I don't get too upset.


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## Venusian Broon (Nov 15, 2014)

The only e-reading I do is on my PC screen and I don't even like reading short stories with that set-up, but I'm sure if I crossed over to a dedicate e-reader then I'm sure I could get used to it very quickly and really not notice...

...however I have a complex set of emotions and feelings for the printed words over the electronic one. To take an analogy, there's more to food than just nutrition and fuel; there's how it looks, the appetising smell, the texture... There's a whole richness lost in e-reading in my eyes, the tactile sensation of handling the page, the smell of an aged book, books as beautiful objects just to look at!

Say I was offered three hundred books - if I were given then in paper form it would feel like Christmas to me. To get the exact same books on a Kindle as digital files, I'm much more on the 'meh' side of emotions. (Even given my current lack of space in my flat)

I offer this explanation: See, I'm not a Christian. Never been baptised, never been conferred by any church on any major event on my life, in fact never ever been to a bog standard Sunday service. My family were all good wholesome atheists/agnostics. But during all my childhood we all went religiously to the local library every two weeks to swap our four (or was it five, I'm hazy on the number we were allowed) old previous choices with a new selection. To me the library is my temple. It was a tiny little place, but it was choked full of row upon row of books, whole universes of adventures and ideas, people lives and descriptions of faraway exotic places. Practically all hardback and with that 'library' smell. It was always joyful experience, full of excitement and mystery! and I couldn't wait to get back and get stuck in to start reading. I still get the 'aftershocks' of all that looking at a pile of books now.

I'm not sure this sort of thing goes on as much as I think it used to. You have to remember this was the late 70s/early 80s and the world was different. Only three channels on the telly, no computers (unless you counted Simon the electronic game), radio was ruled by Radio 1 and massive multi-player on-line games only took place in the real world with your friends, usually on bikes. Books then were huge parts of my entertainment at the time.


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## AnyaKimlin (Nov 15, 2014)

springs said:


> But when you don't notice the writing - isn't that when we know it's good?
> 
> I also have to politely disagree with Mouse - for me there is a huge difference between reading on my kindle app ( and from what I've tried on others' kindles), and I find it horrid, frankly. But I have dry-eyes syndrome which isn't helped by the time I stare at screens. But, bottom line, the e-versions simply don't feel like I'm reading a book.



I'm in the I don't care how I read it camp.

And no I don't think the writing has to be good as such just good enough to allow me get engrossed in the story.


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## willwallace (Nov 15, 2014)

I don't believe that the difference between ebooks and physical ones affects how I like a story or not.  These days I tend to get ebooks due to space considerations,  and use a Kindle Fire hdx 8.9" for the majority of my reading.  Increasing font size is a huge plus for me,  over printed material.


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## HareBrain (Nov 15, 2014)

springs said:


> But when you don't notice the writing - isn't that when we know it's good?



Just to add my tuppence to this -- not necessarily. The quality of writing can have a negative effect on a reader's experience without being noticed as the cause.

I came across an example last week where a reader initially thought a paragraph repetitive and overlong, but couldn't account for this impression, as all the sentences said different things and were all necessary to understanding what was going on. Further examination revealed that all seven-or-so sentences had the same structure, and it was this deadening rhythm that the reader had picked up on without realising it.

And on the other hand, I don't think you'd say the same about poetry, but I think there's a grey area between the two -- many pieces of blank verse could be turned into rich prose if you joined the lines together. And personally I have no problem with the occasional line in a novel that's so brilliant I notice it, just like a particularly stunning piece of camerawork in a film. It might pull me out of the story a little, but it's not like it then takes me an hour to get back into it. Of course too often, or in the wrong place, and it would become annoying. But coming across a noticeably striking way of expressing something, especially something commonplace, is one of the joys of reading, for me.


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## Dennis E. Taylor (Nov 28, 2014)

David Evil Overlord said:


> I've become so used to reading on my kindle, I've sometimes pressed the edge of the page on a paper book, and wondered why the page won't turn...oh, right...


 
At a friend's place recently, I was handed a small framed picture to look at. Just for a joke, I tried swiping it several times. 

But getting back on topic, to the extent that there's any actual research to back this claim, I'd bet a lot of it has to do with what you grew up with. Dag nab it, if papyrus was good enough for grampa, it's good enough for me!

I like the feel of a book, because I have decades of positive reinforcement. But the convenience of a tablet with the Kindle app is hard to beat. Whether I enjoy or remember the actual story better? If there's a difference, it's too subtle to stress about.


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