# Talk to me about laptops



## TheDustyZebra (Feb 18, 2016)

At the risk of starting a war, I need opinions on the current laptop market. What's good, what's not, what do I need to know?

I write, I edit, I hang out here and on Facebook, and I watch movies from Amazon and Netflix. That's about it. I do occasionally play a game such as Civilization, which would be on Steam these days since that's where I bought several of them recently.

I have an iPad and there is a Mac desktop in my house, so I probably don't need a Mac. I'd like to be able to run Windows 7 instead of one of the nightmarish newer ones, but I realize that may not be possible.


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## The Bluestocking (Feb 18, 2016)

TheDustyZebra said:


> At the risk of starting a war, I need opinions on the current laptop market. What's good, what's not, what do I need to know?
> 
> I write, I edit, I hang out here and on Facebook, and I watch movies from Amazon and Netflix. That's about it. I do occasionally play a game such as Civilization, which would be on Steam these days since that's where I bought several of them recently.
> 
> I have an iPad and there is a Mac desktop in my house, so I probably don't need a Mac. I'd like to be able to run Windows 7 instead of one of the nightmarish newer ones, but I realize that may not be possible.



I've always used Toshibas and Fujitsus because they are tough workhorses. The after-sales services is solid as well (at least, it is over here in Southeast Asia).

My laptop is my desktop replacement and I do EVERYTHING on it - non-stop online work (I work from home), streaming shows to watch, heavy social media usage (part of work), writing, editing pictures and videos, streaming music etc. 

What I do is select a gaming laptop model, then add in as much extra RAM as I can afford (usually the maximum allowed by the laptop) and then go to town with it.

Hope this helps.


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## TheDustyZebra (Feb 18, 2016)

Ahh, yes, I should have added that my laptop IS my computer. We have desktop computers, but I only use a laptop.

I have a Toshiba now, and have no complaints other than it's old and getting progressively slower, but I don't quite trust Toshiba not to go bankrupt this year, so I'm not sure I want another one. Not that I ever hit the company up for anything to do with my old one, so it wouldn't make a lot of difference.

I have advice from another quarter that suggests Lenovo and Dell would be good options.

Oh, and I do want a CD/DVD drive.


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## The Bluestocking (Feb 18, 2016)

TheDustyZebra said:


> Ahh, yes, I should have added that my laptop IS my computer. We have desktop computers, but I only use a laptop.
> 
> I have a Toshiba now, and have no complaints other than it's old and getting progressively slower, but I don't quite trust Toshiba not to go bankrupt this year, so I'm not sure I want another one. Not that I ever hit the company up for anything to do with my old one, so it wouldn't make a lot of difference.
> 
> ...



Dells tend to get slower and slower for some reason. My previous job had Dells and we had a ton of trouble with them even with repeated repairs by Dell.

Not sure about Lenovo but do avoid Sony Vaio laptops - every single person I know who has bought one has constantly had trouble with them.

Didn't know Toshiba might be going bankrupt - try Fujitsu. Don't think they are going bankrupt and they make really good laptops (my last two laptops were Fujitsu because they were at the price point that suited my pocket at the time). They tend to be slightly more expensive though.


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## Culhwch (Feb 18, 2016)

How fortuitous! I've been in the laptop market for quite a little while now (I'm really bad at making commitments when there is a large sum of money attached). I will watch this thread with interest.

For what it's worth - we've had Toshibas and never had a problem, although their troubles this year concern me as well. I've been looking at ASUS and MSI laptops, as I'm keen to get a gaming model, and have heard both good and bad things about both. Same with Dell - it seems some people swear by them, and some people loath them. The more research I do, the more confused I get!


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## The Bluestocking (Feb 18, 2016)

Culhwch said:


> I've been looking at ASUS and MSI laptops, as I'm keen to get a gaming model, and have heard both good and bad things about both.



ASUS is a bit of a gamble - I've had two laptops from them before and both ended "flaming out" due to motherboard issues. There was no warning - one moment you're typing away, the next moment BLACKOUT GOODBYE POOF GONE! (Thank goodness I'd backed up my things).

And for the love of gawd do NOT get Acer, not matter how attractive the price. Every single person I know who got Acer had to replace the laptop within a year of getting it due to having so many issues.


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## Cat's Cradle (Feb 18, 2016)

Hey Dusty. About Asus - my wife and I both bought Asus laptops 4 years ago...I bought a cheap one, she uses the computer more so she bought an expensive one. The battery on mine failed after 1.5 years, and I had to pay to replace it, and hers failed a few months later. The port for plugging in the charger also broke on mine, so getting the charger plug seated correctly was a nightmare. Finally, two of her USB ports failed after two years. It was very disappointing all around. 
We had moved countries after buying them, and we didn't bother trying to see if the laptops were under warranty; we wanted to go another direction. We use Toshiba Chromebooks now, which we mostly love...but I suspect they might not be right for you, from what you said about your needs. Hope this helped a little, CC


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## Droflet (Feb 18, 2016)

My desktop is Asus. Never had an issue with it. Unlike microsoft. Grrrrr.


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## Jo Zebedee (Feb 18, 2016)

12 year old Compaq here. A bit slow from time to time but mostly goes. (My kids were bought an acer last christmas which is my emergency replacement and it goes okay. Could do with more RAM.) 

Anyhow, I like HP and Compaq.


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## Kylara (Feb 18, 2016)

Don't bother with Asus, Acer, or hp. With a bargepole. Just, don't do it 

I've never had a big problem with viaos (currently use one) but they are expensive (I get a big discount from a family member working for them - staff discount yay!)

Usually the OH recommends Dell and Lenovo as they are always good quality. He also stipulates minimum ram and hdd space, but I tend to go for gaming setups anyway myself and don't have problems. Just find a model you like and cram in as much hdd and ram space as you can affors/can fit and you'll be fine. You also want to get ssd instead of hdd now if you can as much better.  

Oh always suggests having a look and narrowing it down to a few models then going to places like techradar and pctablet review etc etc and reading all the reviews on the models you've chosen, weeds out the dodgy ones.  He's an electronics engineer and very up to date with system requirements etc. He made his work give him a £2k dell laptop for work, and now 2 years later keeps telling them it's 'rubbish' purely because he is trying to get them to give him the newer version  he's pretty good at working out what you need in a laptop for what you want, but not necessarily up to date on models. And if you want to game on it you'll want to cram as much processing power as possible into it and get a good quality screen.


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## WaylanderToo (Feb 18, 2016)

I'd say that your best bet is to snoop around some of the forums like 'overclockers' which may help with the basics (actually a LOT more than the basics as it really is a putergeek's site)...

The below has/had a good rep a couple of years ago
Buy Business, Home and Gaming Laptops from Novatech

If you're not going to be playing games (or at least just 'simple' games) there's no need to go overboard with everything (some of the higher end features such as bluray will come with other high end components you'll not need) so think about what you really need and what would be 'nice'....

bluray player - handy to watch those discs on/rip to watch when away on business
HDMI - handy to attach to the TV 
1 TB hard-drive - handy for storage... but do you _really _need it? Could an externl HD or 2 be more useful?
11",13", 15" or 17" ( I am aware that there are other sizes in-between these but...) - what size works best for you? Personally I _love _the 17" as it just gives *me* a nicer experience 
glossy screen (looks lovely, but horrendous for reflections), matt screen (no reflections but may not look as pretty)
do you need a web-cam?
back-lit keyboard?
good battery life (or does it spend 90% of its life plugged in)?
I'd assume for most on here MS word would be a minimum requirement (get MS office so that you've got access to everything, if you have a student in the house it can be quite cheap)
if you're only writing on it do you need that super-wizzy graphics card - or indeed the latest 20 core i79 unobtainium processor?

have fun


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## The Ace (Feb 18, 2016)

All laptops are great when they work, but a b*tch when something goes wrong.  

The biggest problem is often the mains lead - people push it in too hard, and rip it out of the motherboard, and this needs specialist (and expensive) repair - that's why Apple have used a magnetic system for years.

Anything you'll see in the shops is much of a muchness (unless you're thick enough to take an offer from the likes of Aldi/Lidl, of unknown provenance), and opinion is sharply divided on Dell - some like them, some wouldn't touch them.

In five years of repair, the brand that stood out to me was Acer - we only saw those when someone had logged into a dodgy site and virussed it up, but that was years ago and things may've changed.


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## Juliana (Feb 18, 2016)

I love, love, love my Macbook Air. But then, everything at home is apple so it's handy to have things that 'talk' to each other.


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## REBerg (Feb 18, 2016)

I'm happy with my Samsung laptop. After several years of use, it could probably use a new battery, but it has otherwise been pretty reliable.
We got a Toshiba laptop a few years ago, but ended up taking it back to Best Buy. I don't know if the computer was faulty, or it was all the fault of the pre-service pack Windows Vista OS. More likely the latter.
I don't think you'll have much luck getting a new laptop with any OS other that Windows 10, at least through conventional retailers. Optical drives are also disappearing as original equipment. External options remain available.


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## Wruter (Feb 18, 2016)

I just bought a new basic Lenovo Windows 10 laptop. Like the OP I only need it for basic word processing and internet so my requirements were few. Was very cheap (£150 on sale reduced from £199) and does have a plasticky feel to the casing but it does everything I need just fine. Seems like your choices would be a bit more limited if you need a CD/DVD drive as you say, I'm not sure many laptops still have them any more.


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## Parson (Feb 18, 2016)

I've bought 2 lap tops within the last year, one an HP and one an Acer. I also have an HP that is about 6 years old, Windows 7. (Windows 8.1 on the others) The Acer, although it is the newest has a lot of "gag me ware" on it from the manufacturer. Things that I'd never use, and which there are far better alternatives to without cost. I thought my old HP was finally giving up the ghost. I had replaced the battery on it and bought an 8 hour battery (Is that nice! Yes!). I was having some problems with my new Acer and I brought my old HP in as well. (I may have more money than brains and since I'm pretty poor that doesn't bode well!) The HP came back running like a top, the Acer we cannot fix. It has something sending me odd places when I click through on a link following a link. (I suppose its a weird malware, but wonder if it could be on there from the manufacturer, it happened that soon after I had bought it.) My tech says he's never seen the like. (Sounds typical. I don't get the normal stuff). --- Moral: I'd go HP.


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## WaylanderToo (Feb 18, 2016)

Parson said:


> The Acer, although it is the newest has a lot of "gag me ware" on it from the manufacturer. Things that I'd never use, and which there are far better alternatives to without cost.




this could be the answer...

Beat it, bloatware: How to clean Superfish and other crap off your PC


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## Dennis E. Taylor (Feb 18, 2016)

I'm actually looking right now, with the idea of buying in the next couple of months.

I've had several Toshiba laptops. They've been bulletproof, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one. (The same cannot be said for anything else made by Toshiba). My only complaint is that their left shift key tends to be small and hard to find with my pinky.

I wouldn't touch Acer if you gave it to me free. I owned one Acer. 'Nuff said.

I've been told on another forum that Asus is high quality, but I've been researching lately and I've seen a lot of complaints. I can't reconcile that.

I currently own a Lenovo T500. I don't think I'd buy their consumer-level stuff, but the business-level stuff is truly bulletproof. However, the T500 has some minor graphics incompatibilities. Hopefully the newer machines don't suffer from that.

I've owned several Dells, and they were pretty good. But I've heard that Dell went downhill when they started offshoring all their labour and going with commodity components. Not sure if I'd buy an expensive Dell, now.

I've looked at Alienware. Nice, but tends to run hot according to all the commentary.

About the only real advice that I can give would be -- don't buy something sight unseen. If I can't put my hands on it to demo it, it's not an option. Unless there's a good return policy.


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## Kylara (Feb 18, 2016)

Overclockers is a great place to look once narrowed down your choice (but be aware they are super into their stuff, so some of it may go over heads). I bought nearly all my components from them last computer build and the only problem I had was when the mobo had a fault (bios fault would you believe) and they didn't believe me - I rang them and told them what was wrong and got through to a very patronising guy a few times before they would take it back and test it themselves before replace/refund option given. Which was fine, but he kept telling me it was "user error" even though I knew it wasn't and my OH took one look at it and said faulty component. The third time I rang them I told them that I (hah-hah!) was the electronic engineer and didn't appreciate the attitude he was giving me. The final time I gave up and got my OH to talk to them and instantly said, 'oh, yes totally understand, yes, we'll get our engineer to look for that in the bios' rang him back two hours later with a, 'sorry, yes completely faulty we'll send a new one out asap'. We concluded sexist moron  but other than that they are great and have a wealth of info.

PCs are annoying in the fact that you can't really build them yourself (something I do like about vaios is how you can spec it out pretty much how you want) but should be able to tailor it to what you want. Make a list of must haves, nice to haves, and can live without and start from there.

Lenovo have really upped their game with consumer level stuff. I have their original business tablet and it is still going strong. Alienware are ok, but do run very hot from what I've seen. 

OH also says at LEAST intel 5 chip and at LEAST 8GB as that is what you need to run stuff decently without it slowing to a crawl - no matter what the shop drones tell you. Do not get anything with less than 8GB. A friend got duped recently and my OH tried to fix it but it was so rubbish that there was just about enough power and space to run Win8. No wonder it wouldn't internet or word process! Complete load of rubbish. Gave friend list of minimums to take to shop and the drones were all - don't need that! Way too much! but ognored them and got a decent deal that suits requirements.

All I can add is research research research.


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## Parson (Feb 18, 2016)

WaylanderToo said:


> this could be the answer...
> 
> Beat it, bloatware: How to clean Superfish and other crap off your PC



Thanks, interesting reading. I'll look into this. The Acer is my wife's computer and she has recently discovered that all the stuff she wants to do can be done conveniently on her smart phone. So ... it's not used much, but I will get to it.

Thanks again.


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## J Riff (Feb 18, 2016)

Toshiba here, four of them, never a problem. No need for any addons except maybe ram. Avoid anything feather light. Laptops seemed to peak, and be almost perfected, a decade or so ago, so... I dunno, these all all second-hand and all run fine. I use one every day, then take it home and offload any large files. I dropped this one oncet - it cracked the shell - no problem! I suppose newer ones have the newer HDMI or whatever, but hardly neccessary with thumbdrives and removable HDs. It's very easy to swap a HD, DVD burner or RAM in a laptop, but anything else gets into some serious dissasembly.


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## Ray McCarthy (Feb 19, 2016)

Actually some 12 year old laptops have better screens.
Go for one that the screen isn't shiny and 1080 pixels MINIMUM height.  The shiny and up to 768 high  or 1024 high screened laptops are built down to a price junk.
Make sure vents are not on bottom. Many can't be set on a soft surface.

Generally under £600 they are FAR poorer than 10 years ago. I'd need to spend over £800 to replace my main laptop. Apple ones are about 30% premium for same quality.

Linux or OS X is far better than Windows 10. Really the only currently supported windows worth having is Windows 7.

If you only want to write, email, casually web browse, then a £50 to £200 Android Tablet with keyboard cover is a  better idea.


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## Idealect (Feb 21, 2016)

I would lean towards avoiding very or extremely high end laptops, as there are laptop versions of some parts which have basically the same name but are straight inferior versions of what you would get in a desktop. There's a big difference between what you can fit in a laptop and a desktop computer, but they don't make that difference clear at all, -usually it's some tiny flourish in its name.

That's the main thing I recall from the last time I was looking up laptops.


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## The Crawling Chaos (Feb 21, 2016)

Lenovo for me! Just over three years ago I had never even heard of them and thought they were one of these discount brands that sell laptops at slashed prices to compensate for the fact you'd have to buy a new machine every year.

Their keyboards are ideal for writing, and praised as such by many writers: Sturdy, they stay clean without the need for regular maintenance and are pleasant to the touch and ears. Their laptops are affordable and I have zero issue to report on mine so far. More importantly, isn't coffee spill the leading cause of death amongst writers' laptops? ThinkPads have spill-resistant keyboards and there are numerous videos online of people pouring bottles of water or teas and coffees on them and the laptops just shrug it off and keep on going as if nothing had happened - I will not try this on mine but hey, you never know when that accident might happen.

Oh and NASA swear by them. There are hundreds of Lenovo laptops currently in orbit around Earth. If that doesn't tell you that they are trustworthy, I don't know what will.


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## Jaxx (Feb 21, 2016)

The Bluestocking said:


> ASUS is a bit of a gamble - I've had two laptops from them before and both ended "flaming out" due to motherboard issues. There was no warning - one moment you're typing away, the next moment BLACKOUT GOODBYE POOF GONE! (Thank goodness I'd backed up my things).
> 
> And for the love of gawd do NOT get Acer, not matter how attractive the price. Every single person I know who got Acer had to replace the laptop within a year of getting it due to having so many issues.



I will object to that as I have had Acers in my extended family, ones a doddery refurb refurb. 

The other _*9 years old this year*_ from new 5920,  intel core 2 duo, 2ghz processor and 3gb Ram, still functioning to this day on a daily basis and tackles all things, streaming, music, with it's home theatre. Not good for anything but browser games, but ideal for day to day things. Just needs updating from Vista now as Chrome won't support it. (cold sweats as looking at Windows 7 and the repercussions on current software.)

I'm enjoying this thread, learning loads and need an upgrade myself.


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## The Bluestocking (Feb 21, 2016)

Ray McCarthy said:


> Generally under £600 they are FAR poorer than 10 years ago. I'd need to spend over £800 to replace my main laptop. Apple ones are about 30% premium for same quality.



^^ This. I spend just under £700 equivalent each time I've to replace my laptop (every 3 - 4 years when it really is on its last legs).


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## The Bluestocking (Feb 21, 2016)

J Riff said:


> Toshiba here, four of them, never a problem. No need for any addons except maybe ram. Avoid anything feather light. Laptops seemed to peak, and be almost perfected, a decade or so ago, so... I dunno, these all all second-hand and all run fine. I use one every day, then take it home and offload any large files. I dropped this one oncet - it cracked the shell - no problem! I suppose newer ones have the newer HDMI or whatever, but hardly neccessary with thumbdrives and removable HDs. It's very easy to swap a HD, DVD burner or RAM in a laptop, but anything else gets into some serious dissasembly.



Speaking of Toshiba - the latest news is that they may be consolidating with Sony Vaio and Fujitsu (as part of staving off the shutdown of their PC division):

VAIO, Toshiba, and Fujitsu to unite into a new PC giant


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## Kylara (Feb 21, 2016)

I'll second the buy cheap buy twice thing. You're looking at £600 minimum for a decent laptop. Lenovo really are great (my workhorse tablet is Lenovo) Vaio are good if you know how to put one together with all the right bits (and have a handy discount lol!), Dell is also good, but need to go a bit more towards their higher end.

Chatting to the OH about upgrading "craptop" (must be going on 11 years old now - vista bugs out on it so software problem as opposed to vaio hardware) but putting new hardware in is such a faff - doable, but getting it all to fit in and the back to fit is a nightmare, so he is just seeing how much space he can get with in partitions etc (is a play with stuff laptop now - uses it for testing out various linux bits and bobs!), even more faffy than the small computer my father insisted upon - so all the normal bits but in a half size case! Nightmare to fit it all in haha.

Acer has really gone downhill as have Asus. Stick with Lenovo/Dell etc and you'll be fine 

PS the reason no-one had ever really heard of Lenovo until a couple of years ago is that they focussed on business use - really well known for excellent product in business sphere, not so much in commercial as they never really bothered with it. They recently have been pushing commercial so more people are hearing about them - I got on board with their first wave of business tablets and still going strong - nothing really out there to improve it other than speed, but once in the apps (like polaris etc) no problem at all. Also got a very old business Lenovo laptop that is, like the "craptop" still going sort of strong, again software problems, but as it is only really used with a sandbox VM and to watch films on it's fine - about 18 years old I think!

One thing you do want to do though is kill off all the bloatware and free up space and CPU power. Plenty of tips online about doing that depending on model and brand etc.  and if you want to do lots of film watching then either get a decent sound (as decent as laptop can do) or some fabby headphones (psst Roccat  ) as sound is what will be your limiting factor really.


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## Ray McCarthy (Feb 21, 2016)

Lenovo bought IBMs PC, thinkpad and x86 Server business at various times.
Dell often has three or four classes of machine; cheap consumer, business, gamer and workstation class.

Vaio was an attempt of Sony to do Apple like PCs. They were *mostly* OK but over priced. Sony is out of that a while ago, I forget who owns the Vaio brand now.


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## Kylara (Feb 21, 2016)

Sony still own some of vaio and have focused more onto their high end mobile and tablets. 
I believe JIP have the majority of vaio now. So should remain good quality hopefully!


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## J Riff (Feb 22, 2016)

Geeex there are hundreds of 200$ or less laptops around here. The flea market has millions... they will bend over backward to sell you a laptop, refurbished or otherwise. If I take my laptops there I get offered 50 bux for perfectly working machines, Don't go overboard.


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## Dennis E. Taylor (Feb 23, 2016)

There's a place called Kevin's Used Computers in Coquitlam. It's where I bought the Lenovo. It's a hole-in-the-wall, packed floor to ceiling with used computers and parts. Geek heaven!
Yeah, don't overlook the used-computer option.


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## J Riff (Feb 23, 2016)

There's a place in Boronto too, stuff back to the war, heaps and mounds and boxes of every component and weird outmoded electronic gizmo ever.


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## hopewrites (Feb 24, 2016)

If you've got one you love and want to buy yourself more shopping time, see if you can upgrade the memory.

Usually a case of unscrewing a plate on the back (WHILE IT'S OFF! oops, don't forget that part. I also unplug and slip the battery off as well, but I'm paranoid.) and seeing if there is an empty slot or two. And if not, what's in the slots, and then Google the sticks or laptop model for upgrades.

Can be a low cost way to extend the life of a valued friend (yeah I mean the laptop, not a living being)


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## The Bluestocking (Feb 24, 2016)

Kylara said:


> OH also says at LEAST intel 5 chip and at LEAST 8GB as that is what you need to run stuff decently without it slowing to a crawl - no matter what the shop drones tell you. Do not get anything with less than 8GB.



There are still laptops that run on 8GB?


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## Kylara (Feb 24, 2016)

Yes there are. The one my friend got conned into buying had 4GB - enough to run the OS and that was pretty much it!


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## Ray McCarthy (Feb 24, 2016)

Kylara said:


> Yes there are. The one my friend got conned into buying had 4GB


Twice what is needed for any DECENT 32bit OS. Consumer 32bit windows can ONLY use up to 4G total (max of 2.5G per application), though MS Windows Enterprise /Server 32bit versions of Windows since 1996 could use 32Gbyte.

4G is more than fine for 64bit OS
8G is ample.

There maybe a few insane Windows games that need more than 8G RAM. Likely they need a Graphics card more expensive than a decent laptop.


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## J Riff (Feb 25, 2016)

4 GB? That means 2x2 GB and not many laptops came with that from the factory. Often they had 1, or 1.5 - and run fine like Ray says. I scout for RAM but of course it's: DDR, DDR1, DDR2,DDR3, and they don't mix and match. 4 was the max and I read that it can only use 3.* of that. Newer 64-bit I dunno much from, maybe they need 8GB to do the same thing.


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## Mirannan (Feb 25, 2016)

One thing that might be worth considering is a Windows tablet with a keyboard as part of the package. Microsoft themselves, Acer and Asus all do them; probably other companies as well. They are cheap and probably quite fast (solid state memory) but don't have much storage or particularly good graphics. On the gripping hand, battery life is great and they are all very light.


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## Grimward (Feb 25, 2016)

J Riff said:


> 4 GB? That means 2x2 GB and not many laptops came with that from the factory.



Remember the zillions of people who refused to upgrade from XP until they had no choice?  XP's physical memory limit was 4 GB, which meant buying more than that really wasn't helping.  And given that Dell, Lenovo and other OEMs kept selling XP machines until 2010 (even though Microsoft discontinued support in 2008, OEMs were allowed to continue selling machines as long at the O/S distribution preceded June 30, 2008), you can see from the age of some of the other devices mentioned here that 4GB really hasn't been ludicrous for very long.


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## Dennis E. Taylor (Feb 25, 2016)

Grimward said:


> Remember the zillions of people who refused to upgrade from XP until they had no choice?  XP's physical memory limit was 4 GB, which meant buying more than that really wasn't helping.  And given that Dell, Lenovo and other OEMs kept selling XP machines until 2010 (even though Microsoft discontinued support in 2008, OEMs were allowed to continue selling machines as long at the O/S distribution preceded June 30, 2008), you can see from the age of some of the other devices mentioned here that 4GB really hasn't been ludicrous for very long.



That's because the alternative was Vista  . Win7 was a huge improvement. Win8, not so much. Win10, the jury's still out.

Mirannan: If you're looking at a Microsoft Surface, make sure you look at the Pro. The non-Pro isn't an Intel-based system and can only run apps specially built for it.


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## Kylara (Feb 25, 2016)

The 4GB wsn't RAM I don't think but HDD space...it was a while ago now and I didn't pay much more attention than to soothe my poor OH who couldn't believe some moron thought it was a good idea to recommend it to our very non computer savvy friend. It was "completely unsuitable to run anything more than its OS" according to him (electronic engineer) and even that it did badly. It was te most sluggish thing I have ever seen.


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## Mirannan (Feb 25, 2016)

Incidentally, the 4GB limit (I believe it was actually 3GB) for XP applies only to the 32-bit version; admittedly, that's by far the more common version. It doesn't help matters that, unlike windows 7 in which 32-bit and 64-bit versions come on the same disc, if you wanted 64-bit XP you had to specifically order it. Drivers were a big problem for XP64, too.


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## Grimward (Feb 26, 2016)

Good point about the limit difference and the 64-bit version, Mirannan, and yes I was referring to the far more widely purchased and deployed 32-bit version.  Now that you mention it, though, vague memories of looking into it, reading horror stories about said device drivers and deciding to wait come to mind...


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## TheDustyZebra (Feb 26, 2016)

I am one of those zillions of people who only gave up XP while kicking and screaming. Win7 is a passable thing, and what I have now, but I really will be kicking and screaming again at having to go to 8 or 10. I have computers in my house with both of those, and I hate them.


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## Culhwch (Feb 26, 2016)

I don't understand what people have against Windows 8.1 or 10. I didn't even mind 7. Once you get the hang of it, it's fine!


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## Ray McCarthy (Feb 26, 2016)

Culhwch said:


> I don't understand what people have against Windows 8.1 or 10. I didn't even mind 7. Once you get the hang of it, it's fine!


If you were here*, I could enlighten you and you'd see why I've switched to Linux Mint in January. (I've used Linux for servers since 1999, but only for my home server since about 2011). Despite selling, installing, maintaining and using Windows for TWENTY FIVE years. 

I've used & sorted out other people's Vista, Win 7 (fixed version of Vista), Win 8 (Stupid Phone centric), Win 10 (evil privacy busting and will be subscription, will die horribly with a forced update, MS controls your PC not you)

XP is my last personal Windows. Still have it on a Laptop not used on Internet. Server 2003 was too bloated and slow (based on XP), we went to 9it from NT4.0 Server Enterprise, then back to Advanced Server 2000, then to Linux Debian.

Using, programming and maintaining Computers since 1979.

[* Feel free to drop in if you are passing, e.g. changing flights at Shannon]


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## Edward M. Grant (Feb 26, 2016)

J Riff said:


> Toshiba here, four of them, never a problem.



I remember the good old days when you could drop a Toshiba off the roof and it would still work (as a friend once unintentionally demonstrated with his work laptop).

My last Toshiba worked for three or four years until the keyboard broke. I could have replaced it, but I decided I wanted a bigger screen anyway. The newer one has an appalling touchpad, but that seems to be the norm these days; it's started to ignore clicks after about three years, so I'll probably replace it soon. Now Microsoft have tied down the BIOS so you can never be sure whether Linux will be allowed to run on a Windows laptop, I'm not sure whether to get a custom-built Linux laptop or a Mac next time.


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## J Riff (Feb 26, 2016)

I know. I tried Linux on laptops a few times and it just glitched out like no tomorrow. I thought sure this one was done when it fell on the cement, about five feet. Kee-rack went the case, to the right of the touchpad. Didn't miss a beat. Touchpads are probably no fun to access, though the fix would be very simple. There's sometimes a sensitivity setting, I bet you knew that. )


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## Ray McCarthy (Feb 26, 2016)

Edward M. Grant said:


> Now Microsoft have tied down the BIOS so you can never be sure whether Linux will be allowed to run on a Windows laptop


A) it's Intel, not MS, behind EFI BIOS, Apple used the concept first.
B) It doesn't stop you installing / running Linux. You need to read up on it.
c) Yes, it's a stupid design and many of the BIOSes are LESS secure than the previous system.


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## Kylara (Feb 26, 2016)

The annoying thing about touch pads is that they are very easy to fix. However, getting to them and then getting everything to fit back into the case so it lies flat and the cover closes properly on all the electronics is a whole different ball game and really not worth the hassle. I currently have a wireless mouse for my laptop partially for this reason, though the pad is fine, the click buttons are on their last legs! Also I like how lazy I can be when using a wireless mouse, and I am picky with then as they have to fit my hand and have all manner of extras on them. (sideclicking scroll wheel is a must  )


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## Mirannan (Feb 27, 2016)

Ray - I think Win 7 is far superior to XP. There is one niggle though; the lack of an "up button" in file requesters. But I really quite like the file library system. In any case, I needed support for more than 3GB on my desktop so the move had to be made.


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## Ray McCarthy (Feb 27, 2016)

Mirannan said:


> Ray - I think Win 7 is far superior to XP


There are ZERO extra features that anyone needs except updated DX video for newer games (Aero is dep and it's more bloated, needs x2 memory and CPU roughly for same performance. It's only a bug fix of Vista. 45s vs 15s boot on same modern laptop.  Probably the XP systems you used were not setup properly. Also Win7 emulates the Win GDI of traditional windows forms based applications, slowing them!

All the "good" changes proposed in 2003-2005 for Vista were dropped. Win7 is just a service pack version of Vista, it should have been free to all Vista users. (c.f. SP6 for NT  4.0 or SP3 for XP)

XP (NT 5.1) isn't supported. Win 7 (NT 6.1 or 6.2, Vista is Win 6) isn't sold any more. So both are history.

Win 8.x is really Win 7.x, and Win 10 really barely Win 8 version.


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## TheDustyZebra (Mar 8, 2016)

Well, it's back to the drawing board. I decided on a Lenovo Ideapad Y700, which came with an external DVD drive. Unfortunately, I discovered that it turned off within two minutes of having the cord unplugged, which is a singularly unuseful feature for a laptop. Tech support tried many things by way of a shady-sounding but apparently ok remote login thing called 123rescue, and reset it to factory settings (as if it had had time to get away from those in three days) and said it would need to be returned for repair. At which point I decided to return it to BestBuy for something else instead. Apparently a cursory search (of a different sort than the thorough one I did to find it) would have revealed that this is a common problem with this series. Probably back to Toshiba for the next one. Sigh.


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## pambaddeley (Mar 8, 2016)

I've found HP  OK - the only problems I've had is with Windows 10 which loves losing the taskbar icons and the ability to right click once a week or so; was fine with 8.0 (which it came with) and 8.1.

Dusty, with the new processors that are due to come out, Microsoft are withdrawing support for all O/S apart from Win 10 - Microsoft says new processors will only work with Windows 10

Lenovo were good when they first took over the IBM Thinkpad - the Thinkpads had marvellous keyboards for touch typing in my opinion.  But I got HP instead when I bought the latest LT because I heard a lot about the screen hinges cracking on recent Lenovos.

Also do read around about Tosh - years ago they were fabulous machines, but I believe they have gone severely downhill in the last decade.


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## Ray McCarthy (Mar 8, 2016)

pambaddeley said:


> Dusty, with the new processors that are due to come out, Microsoft are withdrawing support for all O/S apart from Win 10 - *Microsoft says new processors will only work with Windows 10*


a) It's not true anyway
b) It's out of context
c) They'll backtrack on what they said as Win 10 will die without trace in Enterprise if they did. That would drive EVEN more businesses to Linux.

The only reason that Win 10 is doing as well as it is, (which isn't well in Business and PC sales are falling anyway), is it's free, (a) Being forced on existing users (b) People erroneously think that the only simple alternative is Apple OS X. You CAN still buy Win7.  WINE and DOSBOX on linux now supports more legacy applications than Win 10.

Win 10 is going to get MS fined by EU and other countries. It's worse than Android for breaking privacy law.


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## J Riff (Mar 8, 2016)

So, do you prefer Mint13 Ray? Is it going to work on my older laptop after all? What other Linux platforms are worth trying, on a laptop?


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## mosaix (Mar 9, 2016)

I've probably had half a dozen laptops since my first one in 1990. My first, and best, was a Toshiba.

Rugged and reliable, it never let me down once despite dropping it onto a solid floor when I picked up the case without zipping it up first!


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## Ray McCarthy (Mar 9, 2016)

J Riff said:


> So, do you prefer Mint13 Ray? Is it going to work on my older laptop after all? What other Linux platforms are worth trying, on a laptop?


Mint 17.3 with Mate desktop (Redmond theme tweaked via GUI, also long term support), and login slide-show disabled is fine on old and new hardware. I did upgrade the original Aspire One to a 32G CF card instead of stock 4G Flash memory for more flexibility.
Works fine and plenty of space on old laptops with only 1G RAM and  32G PATA HDD and on my multicore 8G RAM desktop (2 off 1600 x 1200 CRT screens via DVI to VGA adaptors) with multiple 2T SATA drives. Though the desktop is  64bit, I have 32bit Linux Mint for extra speed and compatibility. I have no applications that need 64bit. All 8G RAM is available to 32bit apps, unlike Windows 32bit desktop versions (2.5G per app).

Kindle Reader and many other Windows Apps on WINE on Linux. A plugin for Firefox lets it report as Windows (or anything) so PC Windows download links appear.

I've finally got to grips with changing settings on Libreoffice to use it happily on Windows (I still have an XP and Win2K laptops) and Linux instead of MS Office. The Gimp has finally got usable enough to replace PSP7 on Windows. My professional SCSI scanner simply just worked. (PCMCIA  APA1460 card in laptop and and a dual SCSI UltraWide & Fast PCI card with rear connector on desktop)

XP only  works with old Calibre. The native Linux Calibre is  up to date and works well with Kobo H20 Aura and five Kindle models I've tried. It's converting LibreOffice files to eBooks fine. LibreOffice imports / exports all the main kinds of MS Office files and creates PDF and HTML.


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## J Riff (Mar 9, 2016)

Now yer talkin. 17.3 it is then. On Sun. nites I use Ubuntu, at a club, and it is still glitchular. Was worried about the Gimp, it was not so good... but now it may be time to try again.
 Mosaix, that is exactly what I did; slid the case off a high coffee stand, unzipped, and kerrack.
What about those HDs that can sense they are falling and lock down? Can I get a brain like that?


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