# Any metal workers out there?



## Boneman (Jan 3, 2011)

There's a siege situation that goes on for an age, and iron is needed to stave off magic attacks. Naturally every bit is used up, and it looks bad for the inhabitants. But then some rusted metal is found under a building, and brought to the smith. It's badly rusted and he sets about retrieving what can be saved. Now: in a blacksmith's forge is there anything that can be done with the rust? Can it be de-oxidised, or will it just be iron oxide for evermore? If it's heated enough to melt, will there be any decent iron in there? 

This isn't a world with any major chemical knowledge at all - more a mediaeval world. 

Many thanks for any help!


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## sloweye (Jan 3, 2011)

I studied engineering but i'm no smith, but i'd have to say with mediaeval tech it would be very hard to pull anything worth while from rust, you would get something but it would be very weak.


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## chrispenycate (Jan 3, 2011)

If you could pump the forge fire hot enough to melt iron, you might be able to reduce the oxide with charcoal. If the blacksmith didn't trade for ready smelted iron pigs he could use the same crucible techniques he used for the ore. It'd be horribly high carbon and brittle, but would take a great edge. Normally, of course, a smith would not take his fire any hotter than yellow heat, softened, but nowhere near molten, and the piece rests on the surface in contact with air, rather than buried in the reducing atmosphere deeper in the fire.

It's more dependent on the bellows than the smith, actually, though if this is a metal poor region he would have had to have apprenticed somewhere where there were foundries, and iron extracted from ore. (Or book learning, but a smith is unlikely to be strong there; very much a passed on master to student discipline.)


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## sloweye (Jan 3, 2011)

The big problem there would be that in a siege situation, where the iron has run out, would the smith have enough reserves of charcoal to make this work?


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## The Ace (Jan 3, 2011)

As Chris says, it's technically feasible given enough charcoal, but you'd be back to a poor-quality pig-iron which'd have to be smelted a second time before you'd get anything useful out of it.

That's why broken swords etc. were thrown away, it was much easier to refine fresh ore.

If you're working in bronze, however, this isn't a problem.  You just melt down the scrap and rework it.

My Dad (a retired maintenance fitter) just 'phoned and I asked him, "Impossible," was the kindest word he used.


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## Dozmonic (Jan 3, 2011)

So you're left with an alchemical or magical process. If iron is used to safeguard against magic, then perhaps refining iron with magic will have some dire consequence for the magic wielder who does so?


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## sloweye (Jan 3, 2011)

Also, i have a niggle with iron being used as a safeguard against magic. Iron being a base element of Earth i'm not sure how it would work, maybe it's explained in the story. but anywho, thats off the topic, sorry


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## The Ace (Jan 3, 2011)

It's an old one, SE, faery creatures can't abide iron (strangely, this includes elves originally, before Tolkein got hold of them) it's one of the reasons why Dwarfs (the only beings immune to it) are the ones who manufacture strange metals by secret processes, to equip supernatural warriors.


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## sloweye (Jan 3, 2011)

Oh i know the theory stuff from the Golden bough and such, its a personal niggle. being a Witch and spending a lot of time seeking out an knife high in iron content (which is quite hard these days) because its more in tune with the Earth and better for conducting spiritaul energy. It's just a 'What?' moment for me when i read it.

*Edit. The knife was for an Athame, not for stabbing goats or the like 
         (just incase any who are not in the know read this  )


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## Junsui0110 (Jan 3, 2011)

I believe Iron being a safeguard required it to be unworked.

P.S. I know some folks that turn old iron railroad spikes into daggers and the like. They sell them every year at the ren fair for around $40. I live in the center of Kansas, if this helps any.


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## Dozmonic (Jan 3, 2011)

I always thought it was somewhat related to iron's magnetic qualities, interfering with the flow of magical powers


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## The Ace (Jan 3, 2011)

And here's me thinking that iron and steel are pretty much interchangeable.


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## sloweye (Jan 3, 2011)

The more raw the material the better.


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## Dozmonic (Jan 3, 2011)

So it's all about the sushi?


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## sloweye (Jan 3, 2011)

Dozmonic said:


> So it's all about the sushi?



Something like that. 

Witchcraft is all abut nature and working in harmony with it, so the less you mess around with things and leave them in their natural state the better it works.


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## Junsui0110 (Jan 3, 2011)

Dozmonic said:


> I always thought it was somewhat related to iron's magnetic qualities, interfering with the flow of magical powers


 
The magnetic properties are natural. The entire planet is one giant magnet.



The Ace said:


> And here's me thinking that iron and steel are pretty much interchangeable.


 
They pretty much are, except for the fact that when you work a material, and refine it, you take the "flaws" out. you also work carbon into the material, which is kind of a "dead" material. These tend to make steel useless for traditional witchcraft purposes.


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## sloweye (Jan 4, 2011)

The Wiki page for the Athame is full of rubbish too.



> Some modern witchcraft traditions may prefer not to use iron blades, instead preferring alternatives such as copper, bronze or wood


this is wrong as far as i know.

Copper - yes, it makes a good alternitive to iron as a natural material
Bronze - Sometimes, but not offen.
Wood - Never, if they are using wood they are not practicing witchcraft properly. Thats a wand!

I know lots of Witches who have gone as far as to forge their own blade just to get a good iron one.


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## Dozmonic (Jan 4, 2011)

The planet is a magnet, yes, but magnetised iron has a much stronger magnetic field that'll have a local effect a planet might not. It's all hypothetical. Without knowing how Boneman has magic working in his world, we can't say how or why certain materials will have any effect on it. Iron could have properties that repel magic, interfere with it or absorb it.


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## Junsui0110 (Jan 4, 2011)

True. I would be interested in what the general rules for magic are in that storyline. And possibly why they are facing such a long siege, and how they are surviving said seige if its over long periods of time. 
You have woken the beast of intrest!


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## sloweye (Jan 4, 2011)

*like i said thats just a personal niggle.

... anyway, to push the thread back on topic, it's been bugging me so i have spent a few hours researching on line. There are plenty of pages on removing rust from iron but i can't find alot on reclaiming iron from rust. (unless you have modern tech and electrisity at your disposal)


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## Boneman (Jan 4, 2011)

That's great, thanks for the help. I think the smith will be very skilled, so can remove all the rust and extract the good iron , and then, make a poor-quality pig-iron from the rusted bits. BTW that gave me a great idea that when the pig-iron is used in desperation to deflect the magic, it has a catastrophic effect on the magic maker and the magic 'receiver'. Haven't decided what yet...

The whole idea of the magic is that it (unknowingly) draws on the earth's magnetic energy and iron can absorb it, thus negating it. In my world they know nothing of magnetics. Naturally, iron is prized very highly in this world, but probably, will lose its effect after some time, hence the continual demand for more iron. 

Am I right in thinking that you can magnetize iron by bashing it North to South - or possible the other way around? Vague memories of metalworking a few decades ago...

ps: Junsui, the story is in the planning stages at the moment, but the city involved is a vast one, major walls, with natural springs from deep underground, wells, cattle and well-stocked food stores, enough to last the population for a year or so. The magic element is very much a dark one form our Hero's pov, but he does learn that actually it's natural, and can be used for good, but there's a proscription against it because of an apocalyptic past...


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## TheEndIsNigh (Jan 4, 2011)

Boneman: I'm not sure I understand the problem.

What is that causes the iron to disappear or whatever.

If it's the magical blasts then surely there would also be a magical defence against it. 

It seems odd that iron is used (or has to be used in this way as if that were the case thee would have to be a solid wall of iron to prevent unprotected areas becoming a killing field. After all if there are gaps in the fence then the people being contained could just come and go as they please - magically blasting away as they go. 

As for useful recycling. If the technology exists to get iron in the first place then the same technology could be used to reclaim any rusty bits they find lying about. 

As I understand it as iron cools the earths magnetic field induces a magnet into the sword. You probably have to cool it in some special way to prevent the formation of large amorphous crystals that wouldn't align N-S but that's in the detail.

I'd go for a magical field to protect against magic rather than a magnetic one as people will accept a magic process long before a scientific one and the protection/wizard is easily moved as the attack becomes evident. Also the smithy banging away with mystic incantations from the priesthood paints rich picture with the opportunity for disputes between the two factions as to who puts more effort into the process.



> "No Spongrass! Your job is merely to bash the sword into something resembling a sword with the Mithrilnic hammer. It is not in your remit to pass judgement on the spells and incantations we perform. Now put the iron back in the furnace or whatever you do and leave the clever stuff to us!"
> 
> Spongrass held the weapon, his rage was obvious, his face reddening. Even his apprentice knew that the temperatures and the spell they were performing were not compatible. The apprentice quickly placed himself between the priest and the smithy knowing that at that moment, it was uncertain where the sword would end up: the furnace or the priest's arse.


 
I always thought silver was the favoured protection material. The 'pile' could be an alloy of silver and say copper which could result in a metallurgical process that would give the need for the skill. Acids or whatever could be used. You could have a lot of fun describing the collection/burning of sulphur to make the acid. Sulphur being well established as a demonic/magical ingredient.


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## Boneman (Jan 4, 2011)

TEIN, iron absorbs the magic, no matter from where it is directed, so it's a kind of touchstone/a warning beacon. When it gets 'full' it has to be discharged somehow (haven't worked that out yet). But there will be an incredible shortage of iron in this world, hence its value. 'Twon't be earth, but a distant apocalypse will have had something to do with it. Hah! Maybe thousands of years ago the previous population built space arks and took millions away, that's why there's so little iron left... nah... maybe not. 

It's all in the 'whatif' stage, but I had my opening planned, and the rust bit was bothering me. But a great idea about the smith and the priest - triggered off so many more 'whatifs'. Thanks!

ps: of course I'm faced with a logistical nightmare of planning a world that has no everday usage of iron - copper nails to hold things together, hinges, wheels, bronze eating implements, ploughs, etc etc etc.... aaarrgh!


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## sloweye (Jan 4, 2011)

> As for useful recycling. If the technology exists to get iron in the  first place then the same technology could be used to reclaim any rusty  bits they find lying about.


Once iron has rusted its rust, not iron. Getting it in the first place is a compleatly differant process. It's not like removing salt from water, it's whole make up is changed.

My tip for the story would be the iron was found in heavy clay soil so its got surface corrosion, so although you lose a lot of the metal there would be 'some' good stuff left.

(see my thread on the sword in the history section, that was protected by clay while in the ground)


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## Boneman (Jan 4, 2011)

sloweye said:


> Once iron has rusted its rust, not iron. Getting it in the first place is a compleatly differant process. It's not like removing salt from water, it's whole make up is changed.
> 
> My tip for the story would be the iron was found in heavy clay soil so its got surface corrosion, so although you lose a lot of the metal there would be 'some' good stuff left.
> 
> (see my thread on the sword in the history section, that was protected by clay while in the ground)


 
Yeah, that was pretty much my plan, but I wondered whether in their desperation they could do anything with rust, and that's been pretty much answered. Thanks a lot, all.


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## sloweye (Jan 4, 2011)

Sorry mate, only just saw this bit...



> ps: of course I'm faced with a logistical nightmare of planning a world  that has no everday usage of iron - copper nails to hold things  together, hinges, wheels, bronze eating implements, ploughs, etc etc  etc.... aaarrgh!


I belive in the ye olde days thick leather was used for hinges.

With pilot holes wooden dowls can be used to join planks.

Spoons and forks can be and were carved from bone or wood.

wheels from solid wood and leather.

I belive ploughs could be made with oxen shoulder blades weighted with stone.


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## Junsui0110 (Jan 5, 2011)

A good way to disperse the built up magic would be to ground the metal. This makes it act more like a current of energy, once the iron has done its job and absorbed the random spells flung at it. 
If the iron is creating a field that absorbs the energy, then to make a decent protective wall you wouldn't need thick iron. You'd really only need to jam rods into the stone and mortar, possibly with studs sticking through the mortar. 
This would cut not only the usage, but also cover some issues with the energy dispersion. 

As for the Rust, you’re both right and wrong. It’s still iron, just oxidized beyond normal use. It could very well retain its magical absorbing properties even in this form. If it did, I would suggest using it in the mortar, which would enhance a walls ability to absorb and redirect any magical attacks. 
If you take a pile of rust, and mix it with a heavy dose of coal, you’re bound to get some sort of low quality material. Although, as you change the carbon content, it would probably just end up being a low grade steel.


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## Boneman (Jan 5, 2011)

I love this place - ask one question and get at least 5 answered. Thanks a lot, Sloweye and Junsui and all the respondents! I love the idea of mixing the rust with mortar...


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## TheEndIsNigh (Jan 5, 2011)

Boneman said:


> I love this place - ask one question and get at least 5 answered. Thanks a lot, Sloweye and Junsui and all the respondents! I love the idea of mixing the rust with mortar...


 
Don't know what your target audience is - not that that matters - but if that idea appeals, then don't forget all the bodies that will be lying around with all that lovely 'iron rich' blood that could be drained out of them.

Another "Trade or Profession" for the priests to get the wrong side of.


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## Junsui0110 (Jan 6, 2011)

Oh that is a Great idea!

My only question concerning that would be, if iron is magic resistant, how would you go about ripping it from a body? Very interesting concept though, which I'm going to file away and possibly use later!


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## Junsui0110 (Jan 6, 2011)

Actually i just figured it out. If iron is magic resistant, and the minerals in blood hold the same properties, by pooling the blood and using some sort of wizard’s fire to burn off the impurities you would be left with a deposit of iron.
It may take a lot of blood to come out with usable ingots, but then you could also introduce a religion into the population that dictates all dead people being consumed in this fashion.


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## Deathpool (Feb 17, 2011)

Junsui0110 said:


> The magnetic properties are natural. The entire planet is one giant magnet.
> 
> 
> 
> They pretty much are, except for the fact that when you work a material, and refine it, you take the "flaws" out. you also work carbon into the material, which is kind of a "dead" material. These tend to make steel useless for traditional witchcraft purposes.


 
That's exactly correct. The only reason compasses work is because of the earth's magnetic field.


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## RJM Corbet (May 21, 2011)

Boneman said:


> There's a siege situation that goes on for an age, and iron is needed to stave off magic attacks. Naturally every bit is used up, and it looks bad for the inhabitants. But then some rusted metal is found under a building, and brought to the smith. It's badly rusted and he sets about retrieving what can be saved. Now: in a blacksmith's forge is there anything that can be done with the rust? Can it be de-oxidised, or will it just be iron oxide for evermore? If it's heated enough to melt, will there be any decent iron in there?
> 
> This isn't a world with any major chemical knowledge at all - more a mediaeval world.
> 
> Many thanks for any help!


 
Heating alone will not reduce iron oxide (rust). No, you can't melt it. You can mix it with charcoal from a fire and then blow superheated air through it, for hours, but how are you going to do that?

However, rescue is at hand for, as any compotent medieval alchemist will know, the rust will dissolve in an acid -- hot vinegar in this case -- to produce iron acetate, bubbles of carbon dioxide gas, and hydrogen and oxygen. 

The latter two will combine while still in solution to form water, in which the iron acetate, being water soluble unlike rust -- will remain dissolved. Boil the vinagar for an hour or two first to steam off the water and concentrate the acid. 

After dissolving all the rust, boil off the liquid and and the iron acetate will remain as a powder. Heat the powder on a clay plate over a hot fire (use bellows) and the iron acetate, being an unstable molecule, will decompose on heating to iron metal and acetylene gas. Do that outside, and carefully, because acetylene is HIGHLY flammable.

It won't be exactly like that, but who's going to know you took a little poetic liberty? 

But it won't give you much iron. Depends how much you need, Boneman. Is this too late?


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