# Paradox by name paradox by nature.



## Foxbat (Mar 18, 2020)

I like strategy games. To be more specific, I like turn-based strategy games. I have no interest in RTS because they all just descend into a click-fest at some point. Paradox Interactive produce a kind of hybrid. They are not exactly turn based but work at a slow enough pace that there should be no appreciable difference between the two genres.

I’ve been trying their games since the first Europa Universalis but just can’t get into them at all. In recent months, I‘ve tried Hearts of Iron, Victoria and Crusader Kings (the idea of this one really appealed to me) but still nothing. I’m just sitting staring at the screen. I got so fed up with Crusader Kings that. I decided to go read a book on the crusades instead.

So, obviously, Paradox. is the paradox. I should like their games but I don’t. Where am I going wrong?


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## .matthew. (Mar 18, 2020)

Probably mods. I've played a lot of Paradox games (or a lot of a few of them) and without exception there is always stuff that needs to be improved on.


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## Venusian Broon (Mar 18, 2020)

Foxbat said:


> I like strategy games. To be more specific, I like turn-based strategy games. I have no interest in RTS because they all just descend into a click-fest at some point. Paradox Interactive produce a kind of hybrid. They are not exactly turn based but work at a slow enough pace that there should be no appreciable difference between the two genres.
> 
> I’ve been trying their games since the first Europa Universalis but just can’t get into them at all. In recent months, I‘ve tried Hearts of Iron, Victoria and Crusader Kings (the idea of this one really appealed to me) but still nothing. I’m just sitting staring at the screen. I got so fed up with Crusader Kings that. I decided to go read a book on the crusades instead.
> 
> So, obviously, Paradox. is the paradox. I should like their games but I don’t. Where am I going wrong?


What exactly makes you bored of CK2? 

I can get completely hooked onto it, following the story of my dynasty. It's a slow, slow burn, yes, but all the types of events and occurences that can put a spanner in your plans and all the different mechanics make it so multi-faceted. There is the question of the type of challenge you are giving yourself. Want to re-constitute the Roman Empire? Or make Greater Ireland powerful (very easy btw!) 

Also do you have all the DLC? The original game is pretty threadbare, and although you don't need it all (I don't like the Aztec invasion one) having most of it is somewhat necessary, I feel.  (I forget now, but I believe you can get it all for free now, as they are gearing up for CK3.) 

I don't really like Civ. And while I love marching armies of little men around the map and massacring enemies in Rome Total War and later games, their strategic turn based stuff has always lacked a tremendous lot compared to Paradox games.


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## Overread (Mar 18, 2020)

I dislike their "not turn based not real time" engine in Crusader Kings 2 - I've never found the sweet spot for speed not the fun in the game; but many have. 

That said Paradox make a whole range of games not just those based on the Crusader Kings engine (which I note are the ones you've been playing). So a few suggestions

1) Stellaris. This is more RTS, but not click-heavy as such. It has slightly less empire focus in terms of politics, but more focus on empire building, construction and such. You can even get up to building Habitat Rings, super ships and planet crackers. It might be more of what you're after with a strategic game that isn't pure turn based, but isn't a heavy "click fest" like some others. You can also easily vary speed from fast to slow to stopped. I find that its quite easy to find a speed that you find comfortable (in CK2 I've never found a comfortable speed - either nothing's happening or everything is happening at once).
It's got quite a fair bit of DLC which range from adding a new race pack (races are fully custom so packs have things like new ship designs, new animated portraits and a few other elements); through to expansions which add whole new ways to play such as the (released yesterday) Federations expansion which adds a couple of new superships as well as a big overhaul to how Federations of allies are formed and operate including rewards for maintaining long term Federations etc... 

2) Age of Wonders series. There's the classic old games, the Age of Wonders 3 and the newer Age of Wonders Planetfall which kicks things into outer space. These are all fully turnbased (simultaneous turns or alternating) games which focus around using a handful of units per army stack, with or without a leading hero unit. You build settlements and it all moves over a hex grid. Planetfall is proving great fun and whilst its released its sitll getting expansions and such added to it. 

3) Battletech. Turn based strategic combat game involving mechs set in the Battletech universe. Visually this game is quite a treat in terms of its artistic styling. Furthermore its fully turnbased with initiative based turns as you control each unit in alternation with your opponent. You control up to four mechs (half a lance) and get to kit them out with weapons for each battle. You then have to carefully choose how to explore the map; pick your targets and engage. Mechs take damage to segments so you can cripple them by going for the legs; or blow off arms; or try for a quick kill and aim for the cockpit and pilot. A few expansions which add some new mission types and new mechs have been added, though the game is now finished in terms of new content additions. 



Another option is you could go for the very turn based heavy Slytherine games company. I liken them to being Paradox's little brother in terms of them covering the same area of interest (strategic games) but having quite considerably less budget in general for their developer teams. So you get some really nice niche titles, but some do show their limited resources here and there. They aren't bad games, just sometimes you wish they'd put more into them. That said they publish a huge range of turnbased games and their library is well worth a look. 

I've personally enjoyed their Gladius game (very combat heavy Warhammer 40K game); Their Panzer Corps game is very popular (and well made) and just "finished" with a gold version; whilst a sequel is now on the market. There's Battlestar Deadlock which is a very neat 3D space game where you command a small fleet of ships (Cylons or the Colonies) and you choose how to move and what to attack each turn, however nothing moves until you end the turn; at which point both players units move and attack as instructed at once. The simulator is pretty smart - if your ships will hit each other you get a warning, however you can still end up ramming the enemy (or yourself if you don't pay attention). 

They've a lot more so head over and check out their site. https://www.slitherine.com/store


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## Venusian Broon (Mar 18, 2020)

Overread said:


> Another option is you could go for the very turn based heavy Slytherine games company. I liken them to being Paradox's little brother in terms of them covering the same area of interest (strategic games) but having quite considerably less budget in general for their developer teams. So you get some really nice niche titles, but some do show their limited resources here and there. They aren't bad games, just sometimes you wish they'd put more into them. That said they publish a huge range of turnbased games and their library is well worth a look.
> 
> I've personally enjoyed their Gladius game (very combat heavy Warhammer 40K game); Their Panzer Corps game is very popular (and well made) and just "finished" with a gold version; whilst a sequel is now on the market. There's Battlestar Deadlock which is a very neat 3D space game where you command a small fleet of ships (Cylons or the Colonies) and you choose how to move and what to attack each turn, however nothing moves until you end the turn; at which point both players units move and attack as instructed at once. The simulator is pretty smart - if your ships will hit each other you get a warning, however you can still end up ramming the enemy (or yourself if you don't pay attention).
> 
> They've a lot more so head over and check out their site. https://www.slitherine.com/store



Oh yeah. Forgot about them - I've got _Order of Battle Pacific_ - it takes me back to my happy days playing _Panzer General_. They've expanded it to the rest of the conflict of WW2. (Actually you should be able to find Panzer General, the orignal game still out there somewhere...may take a bit of caressing to work on todays system, but I found it a few years back.) 

I do find slitherine pretty buggy though. At least I've found OfBP crash a fair bit on my PC and it's really irritating.


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## Foxbat (Mar 18, 2020)

Venusian Broon said:


> What exactly makes you bored of CK2?


There is little interaction. It feels as if it doesn’t matter whether I’m there or not, that the game will happily chug on without a human player. 

As for Slitherine, I have quite a few of theirs and they’re okay but nothing special. It’s obvious that they’re trying to draw new players in with their Warhammer 40k  and plethora of Panzer General clones. That’s perfectly fine but they don’t do much for me. I much prefer the Advanced Tactics family of games. I will say, however, at least with Slitherine games I feel like I’m actually playing them. I just don’t get that from Paradox.


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## Overread (Mar 18, 2020)

Most Paradox games I think aim for the whole "living world" aspect. So yes in theory the game could play without you; however in theory that improves the game because it means that its more than just the player being the powerful agency factor in the game. 

If you want a game where you feel really out of control there's Distant Worlds Universe - which is a real time 4* space empire builder which simulates both the military AND civilian aspects. With much of the latter being automatic. In fact you can make almost everything automatic and just fly around with a small space fleet doing trouble; or you can micro everything. Though I've found it one of those games that's got so much potential locked behind a bit of a poor interface which makes it feel far more confusing than it likely actually is.


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## Venusian Broon (Mar 18, 2020)

Foxbat said:


> There is little interaction. It feels as if it doesn’t matter whether I’m there or not, that the game will happily chug on without a human player.



I think with CK2 it's just not obvious at first what the various levers and mechanims are that you have to do or what exactly to aim for - and it's also more in-direct than, say, trying to paint the map your faction colour in TW by just initiating battle after battle. At least that was my initial observation. It's also a bit more 'sand-box-y' than any strategic game of its ilk than I can think of. So it's more about setting your own goals - a bit like Rimworld: Yes the end of the game is to get your colonists into space, but really the enjoyment is about how you got there not the fact that you did. 

But each to your own, if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. (I myself can't work up any enthusiam for Stellaris or HoI). Is there anything game you've played in the past that sates your strategic itch?


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## Foxbat (Mar 18, 2020)

Space Empires IV is one I  really enjoy. Graphically simple but still one of the best 4X games out there. The Strategic Command games, the early combat mission games are ones I also enjoy. Perhaps the simplest graphically but extremely enjoyable is Steam And Iron. It’s a naval simulator covering the early 20th century by an independent publisher.

Ageod games are others I also like but it took me about three or four years of trying to really wrap my head around the game mechanics. I loved the subject matter these games covered and that in itself encouraged me to stick at it. I just don’t see anything encouraging about sticking with a Paradox game. Actually, there was a time when Ageod moved to a Paradox engine but after about a year of development, ditched it and upgraded their own original engine so maybe me and Ageod have similar issues with Paradox...


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## Overread (Mar 18, 2020)

Have you tried the Dominions games? They've an impressive number of factions and gods on offer and they are quite a lot of fun and all turn based. Though the way they work you really only want to get the newest as they are each small evolution of the previous with some refinement. They are up to Dominions 5 now


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## Dozmonic (Mar 18, 2020)

I found that I enjoyed stellaris and cities:skylines more than HOI4 and CK2. I'll admit I didn't give CK2 much of a chance. They set a high barrier to entry and unless you pass that barrier, you won't enjoy it. Bit like game of thrones for me. Tried reading the books a couple of times, thought the writing was dry. Watched the TV series and with the richness of world and that barrier to entry broken, I enjoyed the books.


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## Venusian Broon (Mar 18, 2020)

Dozmonic said:


> I found that I enjoyed stellaris and cities:skylines more than HOI4 and CK2. I'll admit I didn't give CK2 much of a chance. They set a high barrier to entry and unless you pass that barrier, you won't enjoy it. Bit like game of thrones for me. Tried reading the books a couple of times, thought the writing was dry. Watched the TV series and with the richness of world and that barrier to entry broken, I enjoyed the books.


There is a definitally a barrier with a lot of games, but after a bit of perserverance it can just click. 

It took me a good few dozen hours not quite understanding what I was doing and putting the game down for a few months before I got _Elder Scrolls Oblivion. _It's one of the few games I've actually eventually finished - and to 100%.


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## .matthew. (Mar 19, 2020)

Having played Panzer Corps 2 that's set to come out soon, I'd say that has really good tactical battles but it isn't a 4x. Aggressors Ancient Rome is a Slitherine 4x though, and it feels more original to play (I enjoy the supply lines and such). 

I'm still far more of a grand strategy player and EU4 and Stellaris are my top choices there. I have played quite a lot of CK2 but I understand what you mean, it's harder to sustain interest in and feels very slow at times. Again though, mods. Mods in Paradox games make them really shine. You can find mods to pretty much change any aspect you don't like.

Have you tried the Endless games? Despite their horrific AI they're very pretty and the mechanics are solid.

Fallen Enchantress is a lot like Age of Wonders and I like it a little more.


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## Foxbat (Mar 19, 2020)

Overread said:


> Have you tried the Dominions games


I have Dominions 3 but have never really played it that much. It always struck me more of a multiplayer game. I only play single player games (too many arseholes online means that multiplayer is just not worth the bother). But perhaps I should give Dominions another go.

@.matthew. I’ll have a look at some of those mods. You never know, it one of them may turn me into a CK2 fanatic


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