# Troy, or, How To Lose an Audience In Ten Minutes.



## polymorphikos

I don't think there are any spoilers in this, but then, there are no plot twists in the film so I can't give anything away. Anyway, this is my review from IMDB:


As when a monkey in the high mountains does sit at a type-writer, and presses the buttons frequently, and then does void itself and smear the spotless sheet with foul excretia, so did the script of "Troy" seem within the cinema that night.

Now, the expression crap-o-rama is not often used in civilized reviews, but Petersen started it so blame him. This movie was terrible. It took such rich source material and made it very dull. It ruined a classic plot. And it wasn't just that it destroyed the Iliad and will probably be misleading people about that great work for aeons to come, but that the movie in and of itself was very bad. Look at "Greystoke" - good movie, but nothing like the Tarzan of the books. Look at "Troy" - a foul, stinking conglomeration of bovine effluvium and the thought-processes of a mentaly-defective ferrit.

To be honest, the acting in "Troy" wasn't too bad. Eric Bana was the one of only two decent characters, as Hektor, and played his part with all the skill of a great actor doomed to star in bad movies. And I cannot say enough about how well Sean Bean did as Odysseus. He was physicaly, acting-wise and in terms of character flawless, and I hope they make a decent version of the Odyssey with him in the title role. Pitt, however, was just annoying, and Orlando Bloom was okay but trapped in a terrible part as a sniveling, ineffectual jerk. Bloom's got the kind of style that may have actually worked if they'd given him better lines.

Also, to all those pundits of pundits out there, it's not the brevity of the engagement in Troy that is irritating, but the fact that nine and a bit years of warfare could have been dealt with in a five minute montage that would show us exactly how bad things were.

The direction was also terrible. maybe this movie would have a bit more pace if they edited, although that could amount to merely polishing a turd, as it were. Costumes were excellent, although there should have been less leather and more bronze, and the set design was suitably lavish. All this amounts to nothing, however, if you don't utilise it well. I'd take one master of Karate over five boxers any day, because the Karate master is seemingly less-impressive, but he does everything with a panache to leave the boxers floored.

Then we have the battles. Talk about dull! Who'd have thought that seeing tens of thousands of Achaians fighting with flashing swords and thrusting spears could be as interesting as watching a mule graze. Unless you're seriously into that kind of thing, you'll nod off after a few minutes.

It seems to me, also, that the makers thought that perhaps the origional plot was too slight, so they beefed it up. That is to say, they made it slightly larger and more tangible, but they used feathers for stuffing.

Who did they think that they were playing with Agamemnon as an absolute megalomaniac and main villain, instead of a great tragic character (see after he goes home, and Cassandra). And Achilleus as the brooding half-way pacifist, when he was supposed to be the angry jerk who only cared about self-gratification.

And I haven't even touched on the absence of immortals and Achilleus' lack of invulnarability (or homosexuality, for that matter), because I'm trying to review this film as a film, not an adaptation, even though bile rises in my throat as I contemplate it. What's next? The Volsung Saga with Fafnir as a moderately-irate fieldmouse that Siegfried must mull over whether or not to kill for two hours, then step on? Seriously, that's what it's like,. Hector is as much of a challenge as a stoat to Herakles.

In short, let's roll a wooden cinema-goer up to the studio doors with angry people inside of it, and burn the place to the ground as they sleep. The Trojan Rabbit scene in The Holy Grail was a better interpretation than this.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy

A marvellously scathing review - and a shame that one of humanity's most enduring stories seems to have been dealt the usual big-screen butchery. Thanks for the review, by the way.


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## dwndrgn

So, I'm guessing that you aren't recommending that we rush out and see it?


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## polymorphikos

I'm not saying that, just that in the future they will use mass screenings of this film instead of gas chambers.


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## Lacedaemonian

Scathing review.  Let us all hope that you are way off the mark.  It has a great cast and an obviously great story, so how can the film be so bad?  Hollywood.  The Americans really do know how to screw the **** out of a good story.  Robin Hood Prince of Thieves, Braveheart.... Harsh I know.  Wolfgang Peterson being German and all that.  Still though the producers should not have give him the movie in the first place, the man has a poor track record.    I did not like Das Boot either, though I know that it is acclaimed.  I haven't seen any of his other German films so I can't vouch for them.  

Wolfgang is set to direct Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game, due out in 2006.  The screen writers for X-Men 2 are said to be going to write the screenplay.


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## Hypes

I always considered Wolfgang Pietersen a great director- Das Boot is the best war movie out there. But I suppose he proved me wrong.


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## Lacedaemonian

Do you not think that some directors can not handle the big budget films?  I am not sure how much Perfect Storm cost to make, but other than the fantastic storm scenes the script was very very poor, again with a good cast.  The Americans will love it though, so no one in Hollywood will notice.  Saying that, I am still holding out on it being a great film and hopefully Polymorphikos is wrong.  No offence mate.


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## Brian G Turner

Heh, the more I've been seeing recently, the less I actually care to see it.


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## The Master™

Wonder why they didn't ask Ridley Scott or even Steven Speilberg???

At least they know how to put together an epic film...

But considering the budget, it isn't like they couldn't afford a top class director...

Big budget - low return???

I like this from Movies.com: Writer(s): David Benioff [font=verdana,arial,helvetica]- inspired by _The Iliad_ by Homer[/font]

What was he _inspired_ to do??? Butcher it???


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## Esioul

I haven't seen it yet, but I've heard a bit about it. 

Orlando Bloom does play the most silly character in the whole book, you know.. I hate Paris, he shoots Diomedes in the foot. 

And the fight scenes, well, I can safely say that a lot of them are dull even in the book, and quite grotesque... 'The liver came out'. One of the few quotes I learnt last year, in fact, and I don't think the examiners liked it very much. Oh well. 

It sounds like its been messed around with a bit- I've heard there's some awful child Aeneas at the end, as well- please tell me this isn't true?

I'll probably go and see it, but after my Aeneid exam on tuesday, I think.


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## Foxbat

Harsh words indeed. I was another who rated Petersen as a Director. 



> Do you not think that some directors can not handle the big budget films?


I think there's a certain truth here. It's quite common for upcoming directors to bomb on a big budget. Although I wouldn't class Petersen in that, it is probably the biggest budget he's ever had. Another thing to bear in mind - big budgets tend to mean big amounts of interference from the money lenders - even down to casting - and this might have some part to play in Troy.


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## fallenstar

I have heard worse from my friend........I mean Achillies went into Apollo's temple, killed all the priests, ordered his soldiers to take whatever they want, and the worst thing is, he cut off the head of a statue of Apollo.  My first reaction is: "is he stupid?" We might expect an arrow from the sun god immediately and saw him riding on his chariot and swept away all those Greeks....... and NO GODS!!! Geez it is Troy and no gods! Destroyed Iliad? definitely, Paris who is SUPPOSED to die did not, and Helen went with him?! According to my friend, there is actually a line after the cast says: "inspired by Iliad." I say Homer would have died immediately if he lived to see that movie, then again, he is blind.......


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## polymorphikos

Yes, but the dialogue would have killed him.
Incidentally, someone showed me this fairly funny link:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cleolinda/99710.html


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## Esioul

Ah, but did Homer actually exist as one person?


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## nemogbr

I just heard that there's actually a llama in the movie. So were they exported all the way from what was the previously unknown lands of the Incas?


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## polymorphikos

? Llama? I have the feeling you're having a lend of me.


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## Brian G Turner

Was Homer a Llama?


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## Lacedaemonian

Mark Llama?


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## Esioul

Aha! The secret of Homer!


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## Brian G Turner

Doh!


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## Sage Orion

Troy was not a bad movie as you people claim it to be.

I saw Troy and it was very good!!  There were a lot of 
great battles and a lot of great exciting twists!
You should not listen to others and there oppinions, for
they are their own oppinions and they have different
tastes in movies as other people do. 

Half of the people loved Troy and half do not.  It depends
on what you want out of a movie. 

For me I loved everything about the movie and plan on
seeing it again!  When you go and see a movie don't ask
how it was......go see it for yourself, therefore the movie 
will be real to you and what you think.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy

Well, those are good points. I suspect one crib here is that something as ancient and revered (not to mention loved) in its own right as the Illiad has been given the usual cavalier blockbuster treatment, with dime-a-word Hollywood script doctors tinkering around the original plot. 

That's something I'll never understand by the way - why break something that doesn't need fixing? The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen comic, for instance, has such a brilliantly cohesive and exciting plot, what posessed the people who made the movie to butcher it into the cheap pastiche it wound up as? Of course that movie was still fun as a popcorn thing so perhaps this will be too.


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## Sage Orion

You have not seen Troy yet??


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy

Alas, no. Western movies still take a while to reach India.


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## Sage Orion

Haha!!  Well then.....I urge you to see Troy and after you have seen

it......here's my question......Who will triumph when the battle is between
Maximus(Gladiator) VS Archelles(Troy)??


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## Hypes

Maximus was a highly skilled gladiator of Rome. Achilles is the quintissential warrior, perfect in every sense of the word. He is the greatest killing machine the world has ever produced. And Orlando _bloody_ Bloom *shot* him. 

*WTF?*

I found Troy to be an uninspiring messof lackluster acting, a budget too _large_, and an awful soundtrack to boot. It did have some decent enough sequences, but nothing able to sustain a three-hour long motion picture. 

Brad Pitt seemed unchallenged, Orlando Bloom was whiny and had the most clichè lines I've heard in a long while, while Sean Bean and Eric Bana did well enough, though I doubt this film will do very much for their careers. 

I find that the only thing did well was show off the impressive physique of the main actors. 

That's what Hollywood has turned the greatest literature of old into: male pornography. 

What can I say... Waaahhh-oooh-aaahh.


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## Brian G Turner

Male porn? Oh, that is the best criticism I've seen yet.


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## Hypes

It's very depressing.


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## erickad71

> I find that the only thing did well was show off the impressive physique of the main actors.


 
It's a must see then!


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## Brian G Turner

Lol!


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## erickad71




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## Esioul

You should here the girls in my classics class sighing over Brad Pitt's legs, Andreas. 

And a waaaa-aaaaah-aaaahh song to you...


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## Sage Orion

Well......when it comes to Maximus(Gladiator) VS Archelles(Troy)......

I know for a fact that Maximus would win!!

Okay.....if you don't believe me.....here's my reasoning......

Maximus was Rome's greatest General and Gladiator and with his
strength, not only on the outside, but his spirit and character 
was very strong.....he also fought for Rome and fought for something
greater than himself.  He longed to be free and more so kept his word
to give Rome back a true self.  Throughout the movie, he stayed strong
even though his wife and son were burned to their death.

Archelles was the greatest warrior of all time and was a powerful killing
machine, but inside he was weak, for he took out of revenge anothers
life for his cousin.  He also had to learn how to love and forgive towards
the end of the movie, but the entire time he was killing, he had nowhere
to go.....was lost and ha no purpose but his own, discovering his identity
and his destiny.   As for Maximus.....he had a purpose and knew who he
was and was never lost or even side-tracked through his journey.
Maximus also knew the outcome of many things and many actions. 

Maximus will always triumph!!  

(Don't get me wrong.....but Brad Pitt did a very nice job as Archelles and
I thought the movie was very good.  The strongest character though was
Hector.....played by Eric Bana.  I like this movie, just Gladiator will still be
my fav!!)


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## Esioul

I quite liked Gladitator. Aeneas beats the whole lot though, you'll see.


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## Sage Orion

Who is that??


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## Esioul

Aeneas... escaped from Troy and went to found the Roman race, passing Dido and Turnus on the way. Possibly Augustan propoganda, but described by Virgil. Aeneas is actually human, unlike that silly, childish Achilles.


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## Hypes

Problem is, _Troy_ is very far from the reality of _The Illiad_. Achilles is a demi-god; however trite the debate may be, I don't see how a worn-out Roman general can stand up to that. Generals are strategists and tacticians, not fighters, despite Hollywood's best efforts to prove otherwise.

That's the problem, really, because popular impression of ancient history and mythology is entirely depicted by Hollywood, not actual sources.


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## Amidala

erickad71 said:
			
		

>


LMAO I liked it at first but then like halfway through I got bored of the plot


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## Sage Orion

I know but I still think Maximus is Great!!  

He is one of my heros!!  I still think Maximus will beat almost anyone!!
At least I like to think so.


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## Hypes

That's your prerogative, of course.


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## Dead Riverdragon

Well you know, you have to factor in that Achilles just. Cannot. Die (assuming maximus doesn't stab him in the foot with a poisoned weapon-pretty safe bet). As far as the generalship thing goes-essentially both Maximus and Achilles were generals-Achilles' in the Greek sense (with the world's hardest troops at his back), whereby generals had to shape up in the field or be sent off in disgrace, while Maximus was a general with a little bit of swordsmanship. All in all, no man's gonna go toe-to-toe with Achilles and win, apart from maybe Diomedes, but then no one touches that little psycho and lives


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## Michael

Not to mention that the Greek tradition of single combat is represented in the _Iliad._


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## Michael

As far as _The Perfect Storm_, although plenty of my friends enjoyed it I was never much for disaster films.  _Earthquake_, _Volcano_, _Twister_ . . . none really did much for me.

I do agree that Hollywood has a tendency to exaggerate, distort, and often completely misrepresent a story--which is too bad really. However, they produce a lot of good work, too.

In any case, I don't think I'm going see _Troy_. How can you have a movie based on _Iliad_ without gods? Reminds me of Hollywood's rendition of _Starship Troopers_ (thank God I saw the movie before I read the book).  As a movie, _Starship_ was okay, I enjoyed watching it, but I'd still like to see a more faithful adaptation of Heinlein's book.


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## fallenstar

And Paris was the good guy in the movie who "puts love above everything else and use it against fury......." no idea how did the person who wrote the screen play thought of that.


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## Dead Riverdragon

I recently saw Troy, and completely disagree with most of the criticism made in this thread. Troy is the best film I've seen in quite some time. While very different to the Iliad, the changes generally point to a more historical reality than does Homer's work. Pitt was excellent as Achilles, I can't think of anyone I'd rather have seen in that role, and it was expressed perfectly in the story's non-magical context. Sean Bean was excellent, as was Peter O' Toole as Priam, in the film a more flawed character than the Ilian posits. Bana as Hector was similarly excellent, albeit less charasmatic than than maniacal Achilles, and heroised overmuch. The very first Achilles scene, in which he challenges Boagrias sucked the very breath from my lungs, and the rest of the film did not disappoint. All I could have asked for was the inclusion of a few more Homeric characters, e.g. Diomedes and Oileusan Ajax. I think Paris was represented realistically: as a useless fop, as proved by his duel with Menelaus. The latter shocked me with its crazy conclusion, but given the context I can forgive the film that (a similar alteration occured with many characters: Agamemnon, Telamonian Ajax). In all, the many changes withstanding, the film was amazing.


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## polymorphikos

And so we see the miracle of the other point of view. Now that I think about it, it wasn't quite so bad as I made out. I guess different people just like different things.


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## Sirathiel

Esioul said:
			
		

> Aeneas... escaped from Troy and went to found the Roman race, passing Dido and Turnus on the way. Possibly Augustan propoganda, but described by Virgil. Aeneas is actually human, unlike that silly, childish Achilles.


I'm not 100% sure, but I think I remember that Aeneas is also a half-god with Aphrodite/Venus as mother. She was the one who told him to leave Troy and not to look back. His wife did look back and was killed or something. But Aeneas escaped.

It is true that Troy without Gods loses a bit of its charm. For me the battle for Troy took place on two levels: on the human and on the divine one. The Gods took sides and that was quite spectacular.

I have seen Troy and I was a bit disappointed. But the film did have its good moments. I especially liked the fact that they put Aeneas in it. That was something I didn't expect. On the other hand I was waiting the whole time for Cassandra to make an appearance. In vain.

It was not the best film ever, in my opinion, but it wasn't the worst either.


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## Hypes

Actually, 'Manos' the Hands of Fate is deemed to be the worst film of all time. 

Half of its cast committed suicide after the filming was completed - no, I'm serious, they did.


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## Hypes

A close runner up would be Grim, however.


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## Esioul

What- no Cassandra? Damn! I'm told the death of Priam was ruined as well. I expected the full-Virgil-headless-trunk-sine-nomine-thing.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy

Here, from archaeology.org, is a good review of the film and other tv programs on Troy created in its wake: http://www.archaeology.org/online/reviews/troy/index.htmlThis line seems particularly apropos: 'If you choose to see _Troy_, enjoy the movie, but leave your copy of Homer and your archaeological texts at home.'


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## Esioul

Help Aeneid exam next week help... am certainly not going to see Troy until after that, or it will confuse me.


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## nemogbr

You actually have to study this?

Certainly would ruin my enjoyment of the thing....ohhh well.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy

Y'know I've been wondering about that - Marlowe's Doctor Faustus is one of my favorite plays ever, but studying it for Lit nearly killed it for me. How do you maintain your enthusiasm for this stuff while learning about it academically, Esioul?


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## Esioul

O Faust, thou hast but one bare hour to live....

I had to study a passage from that for the monologue unit this year... great fun. I do sometimes lose total enthusiasm, but only about some things. Sometimes I just get more and more obsessed, especially with Plato and Socrates. Wuthering Heights, I don't know if I'll ever be able to look at that book again.

The Aeneid's all right, but I can't stand Aeneas himself... so irritating as a character. 

Took another english exam today... gah... think it was all right. Classics next week, last one, yippee!


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy

> O Faust, thou hast but one bare hour to live....


 
Oh, that passage sends shivers down my spine every time I hear it! I once heard Richard Burton reciting it on the radio and that is one recording I would love to possess.


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## Esioul

Yeah.... and when he starts counting down the time, that's scary. I was annoying everyone at school by shouting out that quote yesterday. I managed to work it into my exam, hehe.


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## rune

I wonder if a lot of people didnt enjoy this movie because they knew the story and had expectations.

I personally liked the movie.  I thought the first 30 mins could have been better edited, a little slow starting.  But once the battles began on the beaches of Troy I really saw this picture come to life.

I thought all the actors took their parts well, coming over believable. the battle scenes seemed realistic, and not over glorified. 

In the end though lets remember this is entertainment and perhaps if people viewed it that way they would enjoy the movie better


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## rune

I said:
			
		

> Male porn? Oh, that is the best criticism I've seen yet.


Yep, some of the best looking men in the movie business barely clothed.  I really pleased it was dark and no one could see me blush    If nothing else I think the movies worth seeing for this alone


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy

> In the end though lets remember this is entertainment and perhaps if people viewed it that way they would enjoy the movie better


I'd like to take exception to this sentiment. Where is is ordained that entertainment does not have to be intelligent, accurate or artistic? A movie does not have to make cheap grabs at attention or insult one's intelligence to be entertaining. I am not suggesting this is what Troy does, as I haven't even seen it yet, but I am objecting to the overall notion that, to be entertained, one must necessarily leave one's intelligence and sensibility in the parking lot. 

No personal offence intended, Rune. I'm just an opinionated git, I can't help it.


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## rune

knivesout said:
			
		

> I'd like to take exception to this sentiment. Where is is ordained that entertainment does not have to be intelligent, accurate or artistic? A movie does not have to make cheap grabs at attention or insult one's intelligence to be entertaining. I am not suggesting this is what Troy does, as I haven't even seen it yet, but I am objecting to the overall notion that, to be entertained, one must necessarily leave one's intelligence and sensibility in the parking lot.
> 
> No personal offence intended, Rune. I'm just an opinionated git, I can't help it.


My point was that sometimes viewers take a movie too seriously if they are expecting some factual kinda of movie. Where as I feel Troy is loosely based on the Troy story.  I for one know very little about the history behind this movie and quite enjoyed it    But I had no expectations!


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## Esioul

Just saw it. Verdict? Um. Well, I think something was lost from messing around with the historical detail. The death of Priam, for instance. In the Virgil, so much pathos- they cut out all that really in 'Troy'. It was a shame the gods were cut out, too. There's a moment in the Iliad that sounds sort of cinematic, somehow- Patroclus keeps trying to go up the the walls of Troy, but three times Apolllo pushes him back. It's hard to describe, but I think it would have made good viewing. And, Hector is supposed to run around... but ok, I am nitpicking now. And Orlando Bloom just irritated me, as usual. And Aeneas is not, it really should not be, pronounced as 'Anus'.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy

Well, I saw it at last. 

It was just about OK - the visual spectacle factor was as expected, but the storytelling faltered considerably, especially after the death of Hector. The whole war was incredibly compressed into a few engagements only one of which really featured all-out war rather than one-on-one duels. 

Achilles is a sanitised near-pacifist (and straight!) and the other characters, are treated sketchily if not innacurately. Cassandra, who actually adds a lot of foreboding and build-up to the tale, is totally jetissoned. Odysseus, my own favourite character, is depicted well by Sean Bean, but his role in the movie is pitifully scanty. Eric Bana rises above the banal script to turn in a believable and moving performance, while veteran Peter O'Toole again turns in a good performance within those same limits. Brad Pitt does what he has to do - he broods, he poses, he looks very, very pretty. Prettier by far than Diane Kruger, who plays Helen, but I suppose it's a bit daunting for anyone to try and portray 'the face that launched a 1,000 ships'. Orlando Bloom continues to show no evidence of actual acting ability and Hollywood continues to show no ability to do justice to great source material.

It was good for some of the duels in the first half. The rest of it failed to convey a really rich or moving story. Good launch, poor follow-up, as my ad-copywriter friend put it. An afternoon's worth of popcorn-munching accompaniment, little more. 

And, I promise, I did park my preconceptions when I went for this. The earlier parts really were quite OK, but on the whole, I thought the movie failed on sheer storytelling, which is a worse failing than innacuracy, either to history or to Homer's text.


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## Esioul

I shrieked when Aeneas, or 'Anus' as he pronouced it came on, and my friends told me off. It was rather disapointing- it could easily have been so much better. The script really was banal, as well.


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