# First pictures of a Black Hole?



## Parson (Apr 9, 2019)

Scientists may have recorded the first pictures of a or perhaps two black holes. An announcement is due tomorrow.

Expected Soon: First-Ever Photo of a Black Hole


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## HanaBi (Apr 9, 2019)

I have mixed emotions about this. Astronomers have known for quite some time the existence of black holes, not least in our own very Milky Way, and as such I am not overly excited about this latest revelation via photographic evidence. 

That said, if the photographs do bear scrutiny, then it will certainly add to the overall cosmological dynamic that nearly every sizable galaxy will have its own resident black hole-  not least the awesome elliptical M87


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## Parson (Apr 9, 2019)

@HanaBi .... Of course what you say is true, but somehow it feels more real and exciting to have other than mathematical evidence. I'd guess not a few people would stumble over even an explanation of the math behind the proof of black holes, a picture though....


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 9, 2019)

Parson said:


> @HanaBi .... Of course what you say is true, but somehow it feels more real and exciting to have other than mathematical evidence. I'd guess not a few people would stumble over even an explanation of the math behind the proof of black holes, a picture though....


Yup. Waiting to see the photo.





HanaBi said:


> nearly every sizable galaxy will have its own resident black hole- not least the awesome elliptical M87


Millions of black holes.

EDIT: At least 100 billion other galaxies visible, each containing around 100 billion stars. It's too much for the mind. From that down to atoms.  20 million atoms in this full-stop. 

20 million is a lot: Pile 10 bricks in your room, make 10 such piles is 100. Make 10 such piles of 100 bricks = a thousand; make a thousand such piles = a million. The numbers on their own mean nothing, unless related to the ordinary world  Its just too much to process, imo.

I like these science discussions


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 9, 2019)

LIGO has already recorded gravity waves 10 times, from collisions between pairs of supermassive black holes zillions of light years away. Each on the level of recording the change caused by dropping a feather on an oil tanker. It's amazing stuff, imo


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## HanaBi (Apr 9, 2019)

RJM Corbet said:


> Yup. Waiting to see the photo.
> Millions of black holes.
> 
> EDIT: At least 100 billion other galaxies visible, each containing around 100 billion stars. It's too much for the mind. From that down to atoms.  20 million atoms in this full-stop.
> ...



I will always remember an episode from Carl Sagan's wonderful "Cosmos" documentary from the early 80s. He was describing the immensity of the universe, but also introduced a Googol (not Google), which is 10 to the power of 100 - which is BIG! But that is nothing compared to a GoogolPlex, which is 10 to the power of a Googol (or 10 to the power of 10 to the power of 100).

According to Wiki .... 





> _One googol is presumed to be greater than the number of atoms in the observable universe, which has been estimated to be approximately 1078.[3] Thus, in the physical world, it is difficult to give examples of numbers that compare to the vastly greater googolplex. However, in analyzing quantum states and black holes, physicist Don Page writes that "determining experimentally whether or not information is lost down black holes of solar mass ... would require more than 101076.96 measurements to give a rough determination of the final density matrix after a black hole evaporates".[4] The end of the Universe via Big Freeze without proton decay is expected to be around 101075 years into the future.
> 
> In a separate article, Page shows that the number of states in a black hole with a mass roughly equivalent to the Andromeda Galaxy is in the range of a googolplex.[5]
> 
> Writing the number would take an extreme amount of time: if a person can write two digits per second, then writing a googolplex would take about 1.51×1092 years, which is about 1.1×1082 times the accepted age of the universe.[5]_




Googolplex - Wikipedia


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 9, 2019)

HanaBi said:


> I will always remember an episode from Carl Sagan's wonderful "Cosmos" documentary from the early 80s. He was describing the immensity of the universe, but also introduced a Googol (not Google), which is 10 to the power of 100 - which is BIG! But that is nothing compared to a GoogolPlex, which is 10 to the power of a Googol (or 10 to the power of 10 to the power of 100).
> 
> According to Wiki ....
> 
> ...


Yes. The things they do are just astounding. It's so interesting, trying to keep up with it.

But @HanaBi Carl Sagan and the 80's is stone-age with this stuff! It moves so fast and there's a lot of stuff on you tube, understandable to ordinary folks and without equations. If it's before 2016 it's basically old stuff and there will be newer stuff, lol 

EDIT: Richard Feynman's lectures excluded. They are still as enlightening now as ever, imo.


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## Nozzle Velocity (Apr 10, 2019)

I can't imagine it would look like anything other than a blob of light, but the embargoed journalists who've seen it over the last couple of weeks seem to be satisfied with the results. Maybe we'll see several stars or plasma jets moving at high velocity.

This project has been really interesting. There was something intriguing about waiting until winter in North America until the final hardrive could be retrieved from the South Pole, while the other drives were already waiting in Germany. It seems like it's been a long wait.


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## mosaix (Apr 10, 2019)

And here it is...









						Black hole picture captured for first time in space breakthrough
					

Network of eight radio telescopes around the world records revolutionary image




					www.theguardian.com


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 10, 2019)

Wow! there really is a dark tunnel visible -- like a mineshaft -- surrounded by a ring of light. Incredible.


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## Parson (Apr 10, 2019)

Hm, darkness which can only be seen by the contrasting light. ---- There might just be a sermon in there somewhere.


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 10, 2019)

Parson said:


> Hm, darkness which can only be seen by the contrasting light. ---- There might just be a sermon in there somewhere.


Darkness is the lack of light, not it's opposite. Bottom of a mine is total darkness. The limit of darkness. No light at all. But a candle brings light.

20 candles bring more light -- thousands of candles -- a sun, 10 million suns. No limit to light?


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## mosaix (Apr 10, 2019)

BBC Four tonight at 9:00pm. How To See a Black Hole.


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 10, 2019)

Whoops. No TV ...


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## Graymalkin (Apr 10, 2019)

I remember the old TVs. When you turned em off, light on the screen shrank to a small dot and faded out...


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## Kris_01 (Apr 11, 2019)

And they had knobs that clicked. No soft touch remote controls back in the day!


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## Parson (Apr 11, 2019)

RJM Corbet said:


> Darkness is the lack of light, not it's opposite. Bottom of a mine is total darkness. The limit of darkness. No light at all. But a candle brings light.



Your quote is not in opposition to what I said. I said that you could see the darkness because of the light around it.  --- Not that darkness was the opposite of light. So.... sin is visible only in comparison with Godly choices. If no one lives in the light then darkness is all that there is and therefore is not seen. ---- Sliding too close to the discussion of religion here, so no more response from me.


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## Alex The G and T (Apr 11, 2019)

Mmmmm Donuts


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## Harpo (Apr 11, 2019)

I predict that this will come to be a famous photograph eventually


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 11, 2019)

Parson said:


> Your quote is not in opposition to what I said. I said that you could see the darkness because of the light around it.  --- Not that darkness was the opposite of light. So.... sin is visible only in comparison with Godly choices. If no one lives in the light then darkness is all that there is and therefore is not seen. ---- Sliding too close to the discussion of religion here, so no more response from me.


No offence was intended. It was not meant to be in opposition. I'm on your side.


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## Danny McG (Apr 11, 2019)




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## -K2- (Apr 11, 2019)

Harpo said:


> I predict that this will come to be a famous photograph eventually
> 
> View attachment 51497




How wonderful... Such an amazing image (this one).  So young, intelligent, modest, and joyful.  Simple surrounding not requiring grandeur... more interested in the quest for knowledge rather than prestige.  Now this is a picture...

K2


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## Ursa major (Apr 11, 2019)

RJM Corbet said:


> Darkness is the lack of light, not it's opposite.


In the case of a black hole, there is a lot of light inside it; the light just can't get out.


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## mosaix (Apr 11, 2019)

I see the photo of the black hole had come in for some derision on social media. Personally, considering the technical challenges and the distances involved, I think it is an incredible achievement and maybe in line for a Nobel prize.


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## CTRandall (Apr 11, 2019)

My initial reaction was underwhelmed. It looks like a black Saturn with glowing rings.

Then I learned we weren't really seeing the full accretion disk, rather that extreme gravity was bending light from the far side of the black hole so that it flowed over the top. I should have realized that sooner but it made all the difference in my appreciation of the forces at work here.


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## Robert Zwilling (Apr 12, 2019)

At least the jet isn't pointing directly at us. Wonder who is in it's sights.


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## dask (Apr 12, 2019)

Guy on NBC said anything going into a black hole is compressed (or squeezed or something) into "nothing." How can that be? I thought matter couldn't be created or destroyed.


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 12, 2019)

Ursa major said:


> In the case of a black hole, there is a lot of light inside it; the light just can't get out.


But light cannot be held or stored? Visible light is the part of the electromagnetic spectrum between infra red and ultra violet? When the wave stops moving forward, the photon ceases to exist?

Note the question mark ...



dask said:


> Guy on NBC said anything going into a black hole is compressed (or squeezed or something) into "nothing." How can that be? I thought matter couldn't be created or destroyed.


I think energy cannot be created or destroyed? E=MC2

It seems at a singularity gravity becomes infinite, timespace ceases to exist and all the laws and forces become meaningless. No-one knows what happens?


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## Harpo (Apr 12, 2019)

Here's how big the M87 black hole is compared to Earth
					

The length of M87* is to Earth as the length of the earth is to an adult giraffe.




					futurism.com


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## dask (Apr 12, 2019)

RJM Corbet said:


> I think energy cannot be created or destroyed? E=MC2
> 
> It seems at a singularity gravity becomes infinite, timespace ceases to exist and all the laws and forces become meaningless. No-one knows what happens?


Okay, but aren't energy and matter (or is it mass) different forms of each other? If energy is converted into matter/mass is that conversion an act of creation?


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 12, 2019)

dask said:


> If energy is converted into matter/mass is that conversion an act of creation?



No, don't think so. It' a transformation from one state to another? 

What is _energy_?

One of the debates about what happens in a black hole, seems to be whether _information _is lost. 'Information' seems to be defined as whatever is limited by the speed-of-light?

In normal space, virtual particles pop into existence continually as matter/antimatter pairs. They immediately cancel each other out. But on the rim of a black hole, one 'partner' of the matter/antimatter pair is captured by the black hole. So the _uncaptured _half of the pair changes from a virtual particle into an actual particle. It is the formation of these actual particles that becomes the Hawking Radiation that eventually causes the black hole to evaporate away?

Boggles, lol ...


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## dask (Apr 12, 2019)

Thank you. Stuff I didn't know. Virtual particles? Is there on the market right now a book about the latest theories and ideas worth exploring regarding the creation of the universe?


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## mosaix (Apr 12, 2019)

BBC 4 explained how difficult it was to get the picture. 

Eight radio telescopes had to work in unison and be constantly synchronised in relation to their exact locations on earth with extreme accuracy. This involved taking into account:

1) Continental drift 
2) Movement of the Antarctic ice pack
3) Lifting / dropping of the earth’s crust due to varying gravitational effects of the moon.


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 12, 2019)

dask said:


> Thank you. Stuff I didn't know. Virtual particles? Is there on the market right now a book about the latest theories and ideas worth exploring regarding the creation of the universe?


Well, I don't know. Perhaps start by searching SLAC Linear Accelerator (Stanford University) public talks on You Tube? So many other sources. Enjoy your journey, lol ...

EDIT: Here's one I gained a lot from:


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 12, 2019)

2011 is old. Here's a 2018 podcast. But the old one is better, imo ...


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## Danny McG (Apr 12, 2019)

Harpo said:


> Here's how big the M87 black hole is compared to Earth
> 
> 
> The length of M87* is to Earth as the length of the earth is to an adult giraffe.
> ...


So would that be the Masai (Giraffa tippelskirchi) Giraffe we're talking about then?
Or one of the shorter species such as the Northern Giraffe?


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## CTRandall (Apr 13, 2019)

@dannymcg  I believe the SI unit of _girafe_ is based on a nickel-platinum alloy modelled on a giraffe gifted to Julius Ceasar. It is currently held in the French Academy of Weights and Measures, next to an unwound sphere that is precisely 1/100,000th of the length of the earth.


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## Danny McG (Apr 13, 2019)




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## Danny McG (Apr 16, 2019)




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## CTRandall (Apr 16, 2019)

Now that is what I call a context-specific joke


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## farntfar (Apr 16, 2019)

Harpo said:


> I predict that this will come to be a famous photograph eventually


And really that's just the sort of reaction that you should have. Good for her.


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