# Medieval events for fiction



## sknox (Oct 10, 2017)

Plenty of fantasy is set in pseudo-MA, or even historical Middle Ages. Others are "inspired by" medieval matters, most famously the Game of Thrones. But how about using actual historical events? Here are five candidates that I think would make for a great setting over which one could layer elements of the fantastic.

The Black Death (not just the 1347 outbreak, but the later ones too)
The Children's Crusade
Assassination of Giuliano de' Medici
The Return of Martin Guerre (name of a book; true incident, about false identities)
The War of the Sicilian Vespers

By way of illustration, I'll cite Robert Howard's re-telling of the assassination of Zengi, "The Lion of Tiberias."  It's more of an adventure story than true fantasy, but Howard's writing always makes a story *feel* fantastical.

How about you folks? What would you see as a great event for a fantasy spin?


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## Tirellan (Oct 10, 2017)

The Northern Crusades


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## sknox (Oct 10, 2017)

Tirellan said:


> The Northern Crusades


Absolutely! Epic expeditions into Lithuania. Battles on the ice in Livonia. Good stuff.


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## Brian G Turner (Oct 10, 2017)

sknox said:


> The Black Death



Ken Follet covers this very well in _World Without End_.


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## Venusian Broon (Oct 10, 2017)

How about the life of the Holy Roman Emperor Rudolf II? Paraphrased from Wikipedia: _Traditionally viewed as an ineffectual ruler whose mistakes led directly to the Thirty Years' War, a great and influential patron of art; and an intellectual devotee of occult arts and learning which helped seed what would be called the scientific revolution._

Lots of murky Prague, golems, magic, religion, fighting, defenestration.


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## Tirellan (Oct 11, 2017)

Follet does pretty good historical fiction


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## sknox (Oct 11, 2017)

Venusian Broon said:


> How about the life of the Holy Roman Emperor Rudolf II? Paraphrased from Wikipedia: _Traditionally viewed as an ineffectual ruler whose mistakes led directly to the Thirty Years' War, a great and influential patron of art; and an intellectual devotee of occult arts and learning which helped seed what would be called the scientific revolution._
> 
> Lots of murky Prague, golems, magic, religion, fighting, defenestration.



Plus the Winter King. That one is already on the stove that I keep behind the back burners. <g>  I know Eric Flint has already worked the 30YW, but he did a Harry Turtledove with it. I won't have any moderns, but I'll have magical forces at work that are responsible not only for starting the war but for keeping in going when it ought to have stopped. It's custom made for a single life story, as thirty years would take a lead character from young adulthood into the far end of middle age--old enough for cynicism to be followed by acceptance and some sort of hope. But any such tale is years away; other stories have reserved seating.


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## Tulius Hostilius (Oct 14, 2017)

The Reconquista in the Iberian Peninsula.


Although it is usually seen as a North/South war, Christians against Muslims, it is much more complex than that. During the Reconquista we saw Christian Mercenaries fighting for the Muslims and Vice-versa; We saw Christian kings allied with the Muslims against other Christian kings, and vice-versa; We saw changes of factions; we saw civil wars and civil unrest; banditry and mercenairies changing factions. We saw outside influence (from the Christian North, France, England, Germany…), and Muslim from the North Africa (Almoravids, Almohads, Marinids). We saw sons fighting against their fathers or their mothers, brothers against brothers and sisters. Two Epics (“La chanson de Roland” and “El cantar de Mio Cid”). Tons and tons of characters.


In short: 7 centuries of high drama.


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## sknox (Oct 15, 2017)

Fer sure, fer sure. There was switching of sides even in the Holy Land, especially in the 12th century, but nothing like what happened in Spain. In general the Iberian peninsula is shamefully neglected by writers of historical fiction, and it lends itself even more to historical fantasy. Enough with the Tudors, sez I! Bring on the Navarrese!


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## BAYLOR (Oct 15, 2017)

What about novel dealing with Madonna Oriente ?


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## sknox (Oct 15, 2017)

Sounds like you know the work of Carlo Ginzberg. I read his _The Cheese and the Worms_ years ago. Pioneering work in microhistory and a fascinating look into heresy. I haven't read his book on witches, though.


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## BAYLOR (Oct 15, 2017)

sknox said:


> Sounds like you know the work of Carlo Ginzberg. I read his _The Cheese and the Worms_ years ago. Pioneering work in microhistory and a fascinating look into heresy. I haven't read his book on witches, though.



I know the name, but not much about him.


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## Cathbad (Oct 15, 2017)

I write (and read) to escape reality.  I really don't want to write about reality - past or present events.


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## sknox (Oct 15, 2017)

@BAYLOR, you might enjoy him. _The Cheese and the Worms_ is a classic, not very long. Worth a library borrow, anyway, though it's likely to show up only in a university library. Or a good used book store. It's a detailed look into the mind of an Italian peasant who had extremely peculiar ideas about the world and the Christian religion. It showed, for me at least, how deeply weird were the beliefs of the common folk in the late Middle Ages, how jumbled were their perceptions. La Durie's book on the Cathar heretics is another good one along those lines.

Which segues to a response to @Cathbad. When you get down into the intimate lives of individuals, reality can get pretty interesting. I don't buy the truth is stranger than fiction line--if your fiction is not as strange as the truth, then you're not writing good speculative fiction--but reality, especially of the pre-industrial sort, can afford characters and circumstances that a modern fiction writer is unlikely even to think of.

That's why my fiction is a blend: alternate history with a strong dose of fantasy. I don't want to escape from reality, I want to enter into a second reality, whether mine or someone else's.


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## Caledfwlch (Oct 15, 2017)

sknox said:


> Plus the Winter King. That one is already on the stove that I keep behind the back burners. <g>  I know Eric Flint has already worked the 30YW, but he did a Harry Turtledove with it. I won't have any moderns, but I'll have magical forces at work that are responsible not only for starting the war but for keeping in going when it ought to have stopped. It's custom made for a single life story, as thirty years would take a lead character from young adulthood into the far end of middle age--old enough for cynicism to be followed by acceptance and some sort of hope. But any such tale is years away; other stories have reserved seating.



Bit more than a Turtledove! the 1632 etc stuff is not a traditional Alternate History setting, with a POD based on an event or Decision goes differently, its more Sci fi - a 21st Century Virginian mining town is thrown through time to 1632, and you have lots of epic stuff like Spanish Pike Tercio's marching against the machine guns and Sniper rifles of the "United States" 

I am not a very good writer, so I didn't get very far in, but i did have the idea of a more fantastical take on the Welsh War of Independence against English Rule in the early 15th century. In my idea, our last Prince, Owain Glyndwr, the leader of the Revolt basically encounters Elven refugees from another reality, fleeing some sort of powerful enemy that was exterminating them, their Mages manage to open a portal to Wales in 1403 to escape and enter into an alliance with Glyndwr, so lots of fun to be had there!

There's another, same setting, but I never got further than designing the flags of the new nations, I was enjoying that too much!  it wasn't fantastical as such, no magic or anything like that, but a major part of it is the legends of Prince Madog discovering the Americas are true in this take of the world, and his and his peoples descendents, in alliance with an indigenous tribe have forged a powerful United Kingdom, so the Welsh War of Independence is going to go very differently to reality in 1404, when the "Madogians" sent envoys back to the old country, to reestablish contact, and end up sending thousands of troops to back Glyndwr up - by that point, the Madogians & their allies, the people, their cultures etc have totally mixed, creating something new - I had visions of Warrior Braves in Armour, marching into battle, against the English Crown, as a mighty wooden Red Dragon gazes upon them from atop a Totem Pole, stuff like that.


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## Tirellan (Oct 15, 2017)

Tulius Hostilius said:


> The Reconquista in the Iberian Peninsula.
> 
> 
> Although it is usually seen as a North/South war, Christians against Muslims, it is much more complex than that. During the Reconquista we saw Christian Mercenaries fighting for the Muslims and Vice-versa; We saw Christian kings allied with the Muslims against other Christian kings, and vice-versa; We saw changes of factions; we saw civil wars and civil unrest; banditry and mercenairies changing factions. We saw outside influence (from the Christian North, France, England, Germany…), and Muslim from the North Africa (Almoravids, Almohads, Marinids). We saw sons fighting against their fathers or their mothers, brothers against brothers and sisters. Two Epics (“La chanson de Roland” and “El cantar de Mio Cid”). Tons and tons of characters.
> ...


Guy Gavriel Kay's Lions of al-Rassan is set in a fantasy version of the Reconquista.
I'd like to see the story of the successful siege of Lisbon by the Crusader fleet that just happened to be passing at the right time.


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## DelActivisto (Oct 15, 2017)

sknox said:


> Plenty of fantasy is set in pseudo-MA, or even historical Middle Ages. Others are "inspired by" medieval matters, most famously the Game of Thrones. But how about using actual historical events? Here are five candidates that I think would make for a great setting over which one could layer elements of the fantastic.
> 
> The Black Death (not just the 1347 outbreak, but the later ones too)
> The Children's Crusade
> ...



In what way is Game of Thrones the most famous example of inspiration by medieval history?


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## sknox (Oct 15, 2017)

@Tirellan Lisbon would make a good tale, especially for a long short story or a novelette. Especially if you add orcs.
@DelActivisto, it's Wars of the Roses, of course, and since the books are so immensely successful, I suppose it must now qualify as the most famous example. But there are plenty of others.

FWIW, I think Martin has done a very good job of using historical inspiration. He makes enough nods to real history for history geeks to nod their heads, but not so much that you actually need to know anything about English history. Even trickier, he did not go so far as to make the history geeks protest that he got this or that detail wrong. I was well into the first book before I sort of looked up and went "oh, York and Lancaster! Cool."


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## svalbard (Oct 16, 2017)

DelActivisto said:


> In what way is Game of Thrones the most famous example of inspiration by medieval history?



As sknox has pointed out The Wars of the Roses are the obvious example. There are others.

Arguably the most famous scene in ASOIF is The Red Wedding. This scene is influenced by a real event in Scottish history where the young Earl of Douglas was invited to a reconciliation feast by the guardians of the 10 year old King James. It did not end well for the Earl of Douglas.


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## AnyaKimlin (Oct 16, 2017)

Alexander Stewart, Earl of Buchan - Wikipedia

The Wolf of Badenoch - a far better tale than MacBeth

And Black Agnes is intriguing
Agnes, Countess of Dunbar - Wikipedia


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## DelActivisto (Oct 16, 2017)

sknox said:


> @Tirellan Lisbon would make a good tale, especially for a long short story or a novelette. Especially if you add orcs.
> @DelActivisto, it's Wars of the Roses, of course, and since the books are so immensely successful, I suppose it must now qualify as the most famous example. But there are plenty of others.
> 
> FWIW, I think Martin has done a very good job of using historical inspiration. He makes enough nods to real history for history geeks to nod their heads, but not so much that you actually need to know anything about English history. Even trickier, he did not go so far as to make the history geeks protest that he got this or that detail wrong. I was well into the first book before I sort of looked up and went "oh, York and Lancaster! Cool."



I was expressing skepticism because I believe Lord of the Rings is more famous, and probably always will be. I think GoT is popular in the modern world because of the amount of violence and sex it contains.


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## BAYLOR (Oct 16, 2017)

DelActivisto said:


> I was expressing skepticism because I believe Lord of the Rings is more famous, and probably always will be. I think GoT is popular in the modern world because of the amount of violence and sex it contains.



Then there's *The Well At The End of the World *by William Morris  which was written 1896.


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## Mirannan (Oct 16, 2017)

The centuries-long defence of Byzantium against the Turks (and the court intrigue that was so notorious that it gave the English language a word) might make fairly good background for fantasy. Perhaps add necromancy to the intrigue? 

Perhaps Dante got his inspiration from asking direct questions of summoned demons...


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## Caledfwlch (Oct 16, 2017)

DelActivisto said:


> I was expressing skepticism because I believe Lord of the Rings is more famous, and probably always will be. I think GoT is popular in the modern world because of the amount of violence and sex it contains.



Which set of famous medieval events is Lord of the Rings based on? As I was under the impression it was pure fantasy - and if anything real world influenced the trilogy, its the horrors of the 2 world wars, and the Orcs may not be who most assume them to be, if you view them that way


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## The Big Peat (Oct 16, 2017)

Caledfwlch said:


> Which set of famous medieval events is Lord of the Rings based on? As I was under the impression it was pure fantasy - and if anything real world influenced the trilogy, its the horrors of the 2 world wars, and the Orcs may not be who most assume them to be, if you view them that way



To be pedantic, the Rohirrim are inspired by the idea of an Anglo-Saxon kingdom that had its own horsemen and wasn't conquered by the Normans as a consequence, but yes. LotR and all Tolkien's work is a fusing of myth and the world he knew.


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## Caledfwlch (Oct 16, 2017)

The Big Peat said:


> To be pedantic, the Rohirrim are inspired by the idea of an Anglo-Saxon kingdom that had its own horsemen and wasn't conquered by the Normans as a consequence, but yes. LotR and all Tolkien's work is a fusing of myth and the world he knew.



Yes totally, Tolkein was very inspired by European myths - but that is not what the Poster I quoted was saying - he just seemed to be a bit snarky, claiming that LOTR is based on real world medieval events, I pointed out it's not. The author of GOT himself admits its kind of a fantasy version of the War of the Roses, so the original poster who named GOT as the most famous fantasy take on real world events was totally right, LOTR is not a fantasy version of a real medieval period and set of events.

The idea of an Anglo Saxon Kingdom with it's own horsemen is not reality or fact, but itself a fantasy take on reality.

And anyway, it was not the lack of horsemen that lost Hastings  the English had pretty much won the battle, then their lines shattered as high on victory the shieldwalls broke apart as the men chased the Normans, and William the ******* sent his Cavalry back into the fray - that's how I understand things, though happy to accept if I am wrong.


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## DelActivisto (Oct 16, 2017)

Caledfwlch said:


> Which set of famous medieval events is Lord of the Rings based on? As I was under the impression it was pure fantasy - and if anything real world influenced the trilogy, its the horrors of the 2 world wars, and the Orcs may not be who most assume them to be, if you view them that way



It's important then to be clear about what specific set of criteria we are referencing. I've never heard of GoT being portrayed as some sort of historical fiction, but let's assume it is. In that case GoT takes the cake for most famous fantasy story based on true medieval events, while LotR remains the most famous fantasy story based on largely invented medieval words.


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## The Big Peat (Oct 16, 2017)

Caledfwlch, I was posting to agree with you, not disagree with you!


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## Tulius Hostilius (Oct 16, 2017)

Tirellan said:


> Guy Gavriel Kay's Lions of al-Rassan is set in a fantasy version of the Reconquista.
> 
> I'd like to see the story of the successful siege of Lisbon by the Crusader fleet that just happened to be passing at the right time.




I already heard of Guy Gavriel Kay and Lions of al-Rassan, there is a Portuguese edition and I think once I made a net research by after seeing the book in a bookstore, but it wasn’t enough to buy the book.


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## Boaz (Aug 8, 2018)

Caledfwlch said:


> Which set of famous medieval events is Lord of the Rings based on? As I was under the impression it was pure fantasy - and if anything real world influenced the trilogy, its the horrors of the 2 world wars, and the Orcs may not be who most assume them to be, if you view them that way



Cal, Theoden's charge to break the siege of Minas Tirith is obviously inspired by Jon Sobieski's relief of Vienna (the largest documented cavalry charge in European history). And to even get that far, Theoden needed Ghan-buri-ghan's assistance... Athealtes at Thermopylae?

Speaking of Thermopylae, how about Hurin and Huor's stand at the Pass of Sirion at the end of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad?  Leonidas all over again.

Tolkien also mentioned Boromir's (and Faramir's) heroic defense of the bridge at Osgiliath... taken straight from the legendary/historical feat of Horatius Cocles.

I'd also say that the Northern Numenoreans, i.e. the Lost Realm of Arnor, the former Kingdom of Arthedain, and the Rangers of the North mirror Israel.  Just as the ancient Kingdom of Israel split along familial, tribal, and religious lines into Israel and Judah, Arnor split into Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur.  Just as the Mesopotamian states of Assyria and Babylon overran Israel and Judah, Angmar consecutively conquered Rhudaur, Cardolan, and Arthedain.  Just as the people of Israel were dispossed of their land for over two thousand years, the Dunedain (Numenoreans) of Arnor were dispossed of their land for over a thousand years. 

The Numenorean settlement of Gondor (Numenorean upper class ruling over the men of Middle-earth) could be comparable to the Norman nobility ruling the Anglo-Saxon/Norse/Britons.  The Gondorian Civil War could be compared to the Anarchy, the War of the Roses or the ECW.  Eldacar, the restored son of King Valacar, was not of pure Numenorean blood.... Norman intermarriage with the Saxons.... or Scots.

Is the Gondor-Rohan alliance inspired by the Auld Alliance? Or is it more similar to Jon Sobieski's alliace with the Germans?

To me, King Arvedui's drowning in the Ice Bay of Forochel harkens to the loss of the White Ship.

I remember reading a comment by George R.R. Martin... he said that he is diligent to not copy any fictional literature, but that history was more than fair game for inspiration and retelling.


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## Boaz (Aug 13, 2018)

CTRandall recently posted about the discovery of more than 1,000 18th Century rockets of Tipu Sultan in India.  Sounds a bit like Tyrion's discovery of unused Dragonfire in _A Song of Ice and Fire_.  Of course, George Martin may have been envisioning Guy Fawkes...


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## sknox (Aug 14, 2018)

One can always find parallels, but that does not mean Tolkien modeled his action scenes on those, nor even that he was inspired by them. All it means is that a reader has noticed a similarity. It takes a great deal more to demonstrate an actual connection. I prefer to give the author more credit. The events happened because that's the way Tolkien (or Martin or whoever) wrote it based on the needs of the story itself.


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