# What was the star of Bethlehem?



## Montero (Dec 25, 2012)

Interesting article here discussing various theories as to the nature of the Star of Bethlehem.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20730828


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## Victoria Silverwolf (Dec 25, 2012)

In my less-than-humble opinion, the most likely explanation is that it's just a story. (There's also the explanation that it was a miracle and not an astronomical event at all.)

In either case, I think most of us can agree that "The Star" by Arthur C. Clarke is the best fictional treatment of this theme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star_(short_story)


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## j d worthington (Dec 26, 2012)

You beat me to it. Yes, it is highly unlikely that there was such a "star"; if memory serves, there are no other accounts of the appearance of such a celestial phenomenon, not only from other cultures, but from that same region; and this is the sort of thing which people of that era would have seen as very significant (as evidenced by the importance of this element of the story itself).

Clarke's story, however, blends both the scientific approach and a great deal of pathos, making it quite a memorable work.


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## Alex The G and T (Dec 26, 2012)

The uncomfortable thing about celestial phenomenon, and rainbow ends, marking GPS positions; is that the manger at the end of the comet moves as to the observer.

When the Magi were standing hip deep in barnyard muck, in a random croft in Jeruselem; the amazing celestial beacon still appeared to be hovering somewhere over the horizon.  Much like the rainbow's end never seems to get any closer.

Thus, the answer to this thread title's question is :  "Plot Point."

If an inexplicable point of light must serve as a guide, it must be an entity more along the lines of a Tinkerbell; which can magically swoop from the sky and guide the seeker directly to the particular hay-mow in question, or the specific pot-of-gold-slash-Lotto-ticket of the dreamer's fantasy.


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## Montero (Dec 26, 2012)

Thanks folks, its amazing what people on SFF know.

Plot point.


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## River Boy (Dec 27, 2012)

Jupiter aligning with the 'king star' seems a pretty good explanation to me. I certainly don't think anyone got away with making this all up.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/12/24/jrr-tolkien-star-bethlehem-and-fairy-story-that-came-true/


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## paranoid marvin (Dec 27, 2012)

It may have been the destruction of Alderaan?


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## Dave (Dec 28, 2012)

River Boy said:


> Jupiter aligning with the 'king star' seems a pretty good explanation to me. I certainly don't think anyone got away with making this all up.


I'd certainly go with the idea of the retrograde motion of Jupiter for the "stopping". I'd question if Jupiter was really bright enough, and it's motions would be well known to astrologers. More likely to be a comet. 

I'd also doubt that it was totally made up, but it could have been seriously embellished as a story. It does only appear in the Gospel of Matthew and not in the other three Gospels which tends to point to it being a later addition.


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## Gordian Knot (Dec 28, 2012)

Trying to find real life events to substantiate mythical texts is always problematical. The Bible is the word of man, In My Opinion. Unless God is a plagiarist! A significant portion of the events from the Bible were adopted from far older culture's myths.

And it most certainly was man who decided what books of the Bible would be cannon, and what would be thrown out with the trash. This happened many times over the centuries as the Church consolidated its power. Continuing to whittle out any segments that told the story of Jesus as a man, for example. Or any segments that tried to suggest that one could find God without an intermediary (the church, of course).

This issue with the Star of Bethlehem is typical. Such a dramatic celestial event would have been recorded thru-out Europe, the Middle East and the Orient. But there is a powerful silence in the records of anyone outside the early Christian commentaries.

Another problem with these attempts is that it takes someone with a strong multi-discipline schooling to see clearly. This gentleman is an astronomer, for example. He talks about the Three Wise men, and even has a side bar explaining who they are.

He obviously has no knowledge of a biblical nature. Any serious biblical scholar knows that no one actually knows how many Wise Men there were. The number varied according to the teller; some include as many as twelve.

Please! I'm not trying to offend anyone here with a strong religious faith. I am suggesting that faith should be tempered by knowledge.


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## Alex The G and T (Dec 28, 2012)

paranoid marvin said:


> It may have been the destruction of Alderaan?


Heh!
As likely an explanation as any.

*
What GK said

*
A planet in retrograde motion "stops" relative to the background star field.  It does not stop relative to a fixed point on earth.  The Earth still revolves, stars continue to rise and set, from dusk until dawn.  Also, as the observer moves, so does the apparent location of the star.

Celestial navigation is complicated, and limited in accuracy by many factors.  A highly skilled navigator with highly accurate instruments can be happy fixing a position within about 3 miles.

As the Pythons pointed out, so eloquently, The Magi were just as likely to locate Brian's manger, as Jesus'.


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## Parson (Dec 29, 2012)

I suspect that some here have been wondering when I would post on this thread. I will limit myself to a few statements. First, when we take the Bible's own understanding of the inspiration of the Bible you are left saying that the Bible was written by people as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. To me this means that the Holy Spirit inspired the thrust of what was written, but not necessarily the details. I would confess that the Bible is the perfect guide to faith and life, but not necessarily to science, history, or any other discipline. 

So, I see the star story as likely that the Babylonian (if that's where they came from) astrologers as seeing a sign in their Zodiac which led them to think a King was born in Judah. After conferring with the priests and scribes they headed to Bethlehem which in a sense was the star leading them on. 

(This is the kind of thinking that gets me in trouble with some of the fundamentalist and evangelical Christians who subscribe to a domino theory of inspiration. --- If the Bible is found to be in error in anything the whole of the faith is called into question. I respond an examined faith is no faith at all.)


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## hopewrites (Dec 29, 2012)

I dont think the start led them right to the stable. If I remember the story right, they had to stop at Harrods on the way there and ask directions, which led him to decree all Jewish males of about the right age to be slaughtered. 
There is a recording from the ancient Americans stating that there was "a night without darkness" the night Christ was born. The sun set, but the night didn't darken. So there is note from other cultures of astronomical anomaly going on.

I figure most histories are stories people have passed down trying to understand life on this planet, the ones that stick are the ones that resonate with most people.


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## Dave (Dec 29, 2012)

Alex said:


> A planet in retrograde motion "stops" relative to the background star field.  It does not stop relative to a fixed point on Earth.


Well nothing at all would stop relevative to a fixed point on Earth. If that was true it would have to be something within the atmosphere or in orbit; the first recorded instance of a UFO.



hopewrites said:


> If I remember the story right, they had to stop at Harrods on the way there...


You see! Even then, there was already commercialisation of Christmas.


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## Vertigo (Dec 29, 2012)

I like Parson's explanation best. I could well imagine an astonished Joseph and Mary asking how they knew and how they had found them and the answer being "We saw it in the stars." Meaning, of course, in their astrological divinations, but by the time it was written down forty or fifty years later it might have become "We followed the stars" which could easily have got translated into the singular later on.


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## Gordian Knot (Dec 29, 2012)

Parson I respect you more than you can know for your willingness to think. Your explanation is plausible. Why does so much faith have to be blind faith!


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## Parson (Dec 30, 2012)

Parson said:


> (This is the kind of thinking that gets me in trouble with some of the fundamentalist and evangelical Christians who subscribe to a domino theory of inspiration. --- If the Bible is found to be in error in anything the whole of the faith is called into question. I respond* an examined *faith is no faith at all.)





*Grrr! *I of course meant "an unexamined faith is no faith all." I need to proof read more. 

I have never subscribed to the theory that when it came to Faith you checked intellect at the door. Some of the greatest thinkers in antiquity were also some of the most influential thinkers ever to live.


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## paranoid marvin (Dec 30, 2012)

Faith can be a tricky thing to tackle though. Once you start to question or explore it, and find proof one way or the other, where does faith come into it anymore?


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## Gordian Knot (Dec 30, 2012)

Well this is where I think people have lost the way. Religious faith should be about an inner improvement of one's own self, not because it is a requirement of the faith, but because if you believe, you should desire to emulate the tenants of that faith. It is the path to your god (or whatever other term you wish to use).

Faith should be about an inward, personal journey and achievement.

Where it goes terribly wrong is when religious faith is used to tell someone else that what they are doing is wrong. Because your way is the only right way.

Once religious faith is turned outwards against others, it becomes malignant. No where is this more evident than in the major religions the world over, where the priesthood has tremendous earthly power and they desire to retain that power, acting accordingly.

If the major religious leaders of the world would remember that their responsibility is to their people's development for the next world, NOT this world, a great deal of evil could be avoided.


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## Parson (Dec 30, 2012)

paranoid marvin said:


> Faith can be a tricky thing to tackle though. Once you start to question or explore it, and find proof one way or the other, where does faith come into it anymore?



Faith by definition cannot be proven. And the Christian answer to where faith comes from --the Biblical answer is from God. 1 Corinthians 2:9-10.


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## paranoid marvin (Dec 30, 2012)

Parson said:


> Faith by definition cannot be proven. And the Christian answer to where faith comes from --the Biblical answer is from God. 1 Corinthians 2:9-10.


 
I agree; faith is about believing in something despite any evidence to the contrary; in fact the more evidence there is against what you believe in, the stronger your faith must become.

As for faith being an inward journey; certainly in many respects that is true. One should never enforce one's beliefs on another. To enforce faith on others is no faith at all, because -if nothing else - faith must be freely accepted. However there is a moral obligation to 'spread the word' and to allow others and opportunity to discover their faith for themselves and this is where the Church comes in. Give people the knowledge, help them to understand and interpret it, but the final decision must be theirs and theirs alone.


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## hopewrites (Dec 30, 2012)

I always understood the sharing of faith to be an expression of what one has faith in. A way to put to words those feelings that are at the core of one's actions and beliefs.

By the definition given above I would have to say the only thing I have ever had faith in was Love. There was a time when the evidence agaist it did crush my faith out of me. But I've got it back now.

Sharing the experience of how I lost and regained my faith would be something I would only consider if the person I was sharing it appeared to need the anecdote. not as a means to convince them that Faith in Love was the only true path to lasting happiness.


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## cybermike (Dec 30, 2012)

One of the things I like to do is to explore how the sciences of astrology and astronomy and numerology influenced the ancient civilizations, and shaped the world as we know it today. 

Today we tend to discredit astrology and numerology as not being relevant or exact sciences. We have replaced them with astronomy and mathematics, and the two poor cousins have been left along the side of the road so to speak. 

But, in ancient times, before Christianity and before these sciences were refined, astrology and numerology were the sciences of the day, and to understand how humans used these sciences to understand their worlds, we need to look at and understand the sciences themselves.  For, the way that these sciences were applied in those times, was different to the way that they are used and understood today. 

It is generally accepted that Jesus was born about 4 years earlier than the current calendar would indicate, in late summer of the year -6 to -4 BC.  (The shepherds were out on the grazing lands at night. Grazing was poor in early summer before the rains, and they were grazing at night to fatten the sheep up before winter. The shepherds would not have been outside in the winter months.) 

The three wise men went to Bethlehem. 

2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem1 in Judea, in the time2 of King Herod,3 wise men4 from the East came to Jerusalem5 2:2 saying, “Where is the one who is born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” 

Now here is the thing ... How did the three wise men know when to go to Bethlehem? How did they know on what day they should be there.  They did not have exact directions because they went to Jerusalem, but they did have a time frame, and a general geographic location.  So, off they went to Herod, who was pretty much also in the dark.  I men a, a journey by camel over the desert is something that takes a good few weeks, and its not like they got up one morning and rushed over to Bethlehem. 

So, we have to wonder about the clues that led them to believe that a new king would be born in that area and in that time. 

2:9 After listening to the king they left, and once again13 the star they saw when it rose14 led them until it stopped above the place where the child was. 2:10 When they saw the star they shouted joyfully.15 2:11

And so we have an interesting clue ... it led them till it stopped above the place where the child was. 

In the times before Christianity, the heavens and the earth were ruled by gods and these gods had designations, names and markers. Jupiter or Jove, was in Roman religion the king of the gods. the big cheese.  Optimus Maximus.  Jupiter is derived from the latin 'Lou Pater' or 'Our Father'.  The linguistics also connect 'Djeus Peter'  for Great Father.   This is also found as 'Djeus Pater' and 'Zeus' . One can then clearly see how the names  connect from Jupiter to Djeus Peter to Zeus and also the linguistic connection from Djeus to Jesus.  Djeus Pater is then also interpreted as 'Father Djeus' and morphs to 'Father Djeus' or 'Father of Jesus' 

It is therefore easy to see how the linguistic morph takes place from Zeus to Djeus to Jesus. Heavenly father. 

The constellation of Leo describes the outline of the land of Egypt. 

The planet Jupiter passes through the heavens on the plane of the ecliptic. In the constellation of Leo, the star Rex aligns with a group of significant spiritual complexes. The temple of Ramases, The Temple of Nefertari, Abu Simbel,  This group of temples is placed there for a reason. The star Rex (King) is the marker for the home of Zeus in the heavens, and corresponds to this point on the face of the earth. 

If one follows the path of Jupiter through the heavens it does something quite interesting. Because of the different relative angular velocities of the Earth and Jupiter, and because the earth is not at the centre of the circle of orbits (because the sun is) , Jupiter has an unusual relative motion through the heavens. It tends to stop, turn around and go back, then stop, turn around and continue forward with its orbit. 

On the first of August in the year 3 BC, the star Rex (King) / Al Kalb / Al Asad (Power) rises above the horizon and continues to rise.  At this time there is an alignment of Mercury (the messenger, with winged sandals who brings news ) , The Moon (goddess of fertility) , Venus (the female) and Jupiter (the male). On the 29th of September  -3 ( 29 September is commemorated to this day as Michaelmas, or the day of the Archangel Michael / All angels day, or the day all the angels came down from heaven (can also be read as 'came together in heaven') to herald the birth of the new King.)  Jupiter passes over the house of the king (the star Rex)  and then from –3/12/29 it turns back, circles around Rex, and on –2/03/29 ceases its retrograde action and continues back on its way after having visited its home star. 

This alignment of the planets over the home of Jupiter is interpreted as a marker of a significant event. News of a divine conception is heralded in the heavens.

From there it continues into the constellation of Virgo where Jupiter stops in on the 25th December 1BC. Nine months later (Christmas day - When jesus is born)  It then turns around and heads backwards towards a very specific star where it stops from  April till June. Of the year 0.  This star is the second brightest star in the constellation of Virgo, Virginis Beta, The second brightest star in Virgo, also known as the child of the virgin,  also known as Zavijah, which would later morph into the names Saviour and Xavier.  But, it is the start of the Saviour, and the planet Jupiter did stop over that particular star from April till June of the year 0. 

"The star they saw when it rose led them until it stopped above the place where the child was. When they saw the star they shouted joyfully."

And so, it becomes an accurately predictable event for anyone that followed the motions of the planets and the stars in the heavens, that in the time leading up to the year zero, Jupiter would linger for 2 months over the star that represents the child of the virgin after a journey that takes Jupiter from a pause over his home, the star Rex, on St Michaels day, where there is a messge of a male and female comming together in the presence of the goddess of fertility,  then transitions to a pause over Virgo, where it then transitions back to a pause over Virginis Beta, the child of the virgin, Zavijah, The star of the saviour. 







The constellation of Leo describes the locations of the Jalu Oasis, The Kufra Oasis and the Namus Oasis, most probably the homes of the three wise men,  Then traces a route to Abu Simbel, Designated by the star Rex, at the start of the Nile, then traces the exact line of the Nile up to Karnak, Antinopolis and  Cairo and then the Eye of Leo rests on Jerusalem, with the tip of the nose on Petra. The route is clearly shown.


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## j d worthington (Dec 31, 2012)

Parson: Correct me if my memory is playing me tricks again, but... wasn't the arrival of the Wise Men (nowhere does it specify three, or any particular numberl see Matthew 2:1-12) about two years _after_ the birth? There is also the problem that, as I understand it, there _may not have been_ a"Bethlehem" at that period, nor for at least a century or two after.*

At any rate, as Dave pointed out, there are conflicting tellings in the gospels themselves; if one reads them in parallel, these quickly become obvious. Whether or not there was a genuine figure on which the story is based is, of course, impossible to say; but at the very least, we can say that buying into any detail of the story is, at best, a hazardous business without some _very_ convincing supporting evidence....

As for the idea that if such were "simply made up" it is unlikely to have stood for any time... well, this flies in the face of the persistence of nearly every mythology from the earliest known civilizations to the present....

*The question is open, however, as there has been at least one bit of archaeological evidence which would indicate such a town was there as early as 700 B.C.E., but this has not gone unchallenged by the community.


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## Parson (Dec 31, 2012)

j. d. worthington said:


> Parson: Correct me if my memory is playing me tricks again, but... wasn't the arrival of the Wise Men (nowhere does it specify three, or any particular numberl see Matthew 2:1-12) about two years _after_ the birth? There is also the problem that, as I understand it, there _may not have been_ a"Bethlehem" at that period, nor for at least a century or two after.*



Mostly correct J.D. There is no mention of the number of Wise Men/Magi in any account. There were three gifts and from this it has been deduced that there must have been 3 wise men. The best clue we have is that Matthew says μάγοι (Magi: a masculine plural noun) making it very likely that there was more than one wise man. 

I have not read any archeological material which doubts Bethlehem's existence in the first century. There is considerable doubt that there was anything like an "inn" in Bethlehem. What is much more likely is that there was an open air caravan stay. Which if there was a general census (Roman worldwide is almost completely impossible, but a local tax in the area of Palestine is certainly well within the realms of probability.) would have been full and would not have been a good place to give birth. So when the Scripture says that "there was no room for them in the καταλύματι (best translation: lodging)" It might mean something like "no suitable place for Mary to give birth" a stable, especially one in a cave which tradition not Scripture talks about, would be a much better place for a birth. 

As to the time of the arrival of the Magi, this too is largely a matter of conjecture. This is drawn from the information that Herod had all of the boys under the age of two killed when he discovered that they Magi had not returned to him. But that conjecture is tenuous at best. Herod may have picked that age because he wanted to make sure that there was no doubt that the new king would be caught up in the drag net. As Joseph and Mary were still in Bethlehem when the magi found them I think it is more likely that they showed up in the first days or weeks after the birth. But there is the fact that when Joseph and Mary returned from Egypt they were first headed to Bethlehem which might indicate that Joseph had some sort of job lined up there.


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## River Boy (Jan 1, 2013)

Parson said:


> Faith by definition cannot be proven. And the Christian answer to where faith comes from --the Biblical answer is from God. 1 Corinthians 2:9-10.



If there's a spirital realm and, on some level, we're spiritual people, is it not sensible to suppose that there is a spiritual instinct that can no more be proven than that babies will suck nipples for milk because it is an inherent physical instinct.

The fact that we are all struggling with the notions of faith, or meaning to our existence - whether we're religious or not - suggests to me that this instinct is very much alive in the human race.

However, if we believe there to be no spiritual realm then this is not a theory that can be offered.


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## Huttman (Jan 3, 2013)

paranoid marvin said:


> Faith can be a tricky thing to tackle though. Once you start to question or explore it, and find proof one way or the other, where does faith come into it anymore?



The perseverance of it. _Those that endure to the end...._



Gordian Knot said:


> Faith should be about an inward, personal journey and achievement.
> 
> Where it goes terribly wrong is when religious faith is used to tell someone else that what they are doing is wrong. Because your way is the only right way.



I agree with that. Taking ones _'good news'_ to another, in which christians were asked to do, was never to be with the sword in hand or in speech. The simple matter is, we are all somewhere between missing the mark or very screwed up so we have no right to pass judgement on another. We can use scripture to _reason_ things out with others, but when we restrict rights based on judgement, we open up the hypocrisy thing. I have also found, in my experience, most things can be reasoned out not from scriptural background if one has an understanding of that background already. There is much prejudice on these matters especially of late in this world...probably for good reason.

As for the star...I've always thought that a miracle is something that could be such a little thing, even explained as coincidence, but the timing of said miracle is really what makes it so. That works in reverse, too. Let us entertain for a moment there is a war in a spiritual realm of good and evil that has spilled over to include this world. From the story being told, Herod was scared of his leadership being usurped by this new king coming, it being a prophecy many were familiar with in those days (even non-believers), so the decree to kill all newborn males came into play. What I'm getting at, is coincidences happen all the time, some that help, some that try to hinder (such as the star). All can be (eventually) explained by natural means because they are done so to BE explained by natural means. This is our realm, and if one follows the bible, it clearly says WE severed ties to that spiritual realm in the garden of eden to do this on our own, scoffing at God's direction. Religion is man's way of attempting reconciliation to him albeit in a very flawed way. Doing so with power and self denial mixed with that, millennia of oppression can and has happened. Does that make the events of the bible and its people and message false? Of course not, but to me that to me is part of faith. I can explain most if not all events, even creation itself in a scientific way, but I for one believe God created science. 
OK, it was planet alignment or a comet or whatever...the timing of it, though. Fascinating.


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