# The Final Fantasy Series Thread



## Sephiroth

Okay, I said I would do it, to avoid hijacking other threads with my incessant Final Fantasy related babbling, so here it is.  Here is a place where you can ramble to your hearts' content about anything you like connected to this hugely popular and successful RPG series.  Which of the FF games have you played?  Which was your favourite?  What did you like, and what did you not like about them?  Did you complete the games comprehensively (killing everything, including the optional bosses, getting all the best items and equipment)?  How do you play the games, do you over-level yourself before moving on to the next section, or do you race through to the end in order to get the best challenge out of the final boss?  Favourite characters?  Favourite fights/bosses?  FMV sequences?  Any old battle stories (did I tell you about the first time I fought Ruby Weapon?  ).  

Anything else you'd care to mention?

Have you seen the movie _Advent Children?_  Did you like it?  Did you even think _The Spirits Within_ was a 'proper' FF movie?  Are you looking forward to the myriad forthcoming releases (about which Lenny can tell you more than me, I'm sure)?

I have played the following:  *FFVI*; *FFVII*; *FFVIII*; *FFIX*; *FFX*; *FFXII*

My friend has got hold of the Anthology version of *FFIV* and *FFV* for PS, so I hope to have a go at them soon.  Has anyone played them? 

I have no desire to play *FFX-II*.  Come on, is that really a FF game?  _Changing dresses?  _Am I just not in touch with my feminine side?  I wouldn't mind having a go at the MMORPG, *FFXI*, but even if I could afford it, I think it would be a baad idea...

My favourite is FFVII, by a mile.  IMO, it has an unbelievably good story, and it's structured to keep you absorbed through to the very end.  In pure battle terms, though, FFX is my favourite.  The Battle Arena fights, and the Dark Aeon fights, are the biggest challenge out of any of the games I have played.  

The only thing I would ask is that you try and avoid story spoilers, since it wouldn't be fair to all those who haven't yet played all the games.  

Is that it?  Did I miss something?  The thread is yours.


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## Talysia

I'm glad there's a thread for all things Final Fantasy (being a big fan myself). I think I've just about played every FF game released on PSone and PS2 (including FFX-2, although it wasn't as good) - with the exception of the online one, and loved just about all of them.  I'm with Sephiroth on this one, though, my favourite has to be FFVII.

I'm heavily biased, as it was one of the first games I ever bought for the original playstation (I still have the original game, too), but I just loved the story, the characters, the materia system (yes, I know I'm odd) and the music.  I still think that this game has one of the best soundtracks of its day.  I'll play it through occasionally on the PS2 for nostalgia every now and again, too.

Advent Children was a great follow up, and I was glad to see that they'd kept most of the original music for it, too.  The Cloud-Kadaj fight has the original Jenova music, and as for One Winged Angel...Well, what can I say?

I played Dirge of Cerberus a little while ago, but whilst it was good to get the backstory to Vincent it took me a while to get used to the change in format (ie, standard RPG to FPS).  I haven't unlocked all of the bonus features yet, probably because I keep getting sidetracked by other games.  I'd love to play the other prequel games, too.

I guess my other favourite out of the FF series would be FFVI.  I loved the amount of characters in the game, and the storyline was excellent, in my opinion.  Mind you, I loved the challenge of Omega Weapon in FFVIII.  Not quite the same level of satisfaction as beating Emerald or Ruby Weapon, but still pretty good.

That said, I've recently finished playing through FFXII, and it seems that the series is still going strong.  I'm of two minds about a remake of FFVII for the PS3, though.  The original has too much charm in those naive, blocky graphics.  That's not to say that I wouldn't love to play it, though.


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## Overread

Talysia - I think your right about the FFVII remake. To many people just want a graphical update rather than new content, yet if it were made like that then fans would complain that there were no new additions. I think I would also be hard to add things that did not affect the story and yet not feel empty - like a new 100 level dungeon,


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## Sephiroth

No, no, I loved the materia system too!  _Hated _the junction system in VIII.  

And like you, Talysia, FFVII was the first of the series I played, so it's not surprising that I _totally _agree with you.  The music....I could go on all day about the music, I listen to the soundtrack all the time!    Nobuo Uematsu is a genius, and I really think the games have lost something now that they're not using him (I found the music in FFXII to be very bland by comparison).  

I'm hoping to pick up a copy of _Dirge _on the cheap soon.  It will be strange, but I have to play it.  What did you think of its story?

Omega Weapon was a cool fight, definitely.  And all the work you had to do to get down to it...at the Deep Sea Deposit...

I also agree that VI has the best storyline after VII.  I keep thinking how amazing _that _would look if it was made now, but like you, I think it would lose some of its charm if remade...

I have mixed feelings about FFXII; on one hand I really enjoyed playing it, and although I miss the old ATB battle system, the new one _feels _the same and its integration into the world is genius.  On the other hand, I have a few gripes about it.  My biggest issue was with the storyline, which, without saying anything specific, seemed very lightweight and rather short (when you subtract all the time you spent doing other stuff).  I completed this game by accident.  I just never even thought that I could be at the end already, and then suddenly it was over.

[edit]  Overread, I have had the same thoughts regarding a remake.  In some ways, I don't think I would like it.  But I would play it.


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## Talysia

I quite liked Dirge of Cerberus. The storyline drew me more to the game than the actual style/type of game (ordinarily, I don't play FPS. Old school/normal RPGs all the way) and even though it's a bit short it did keep me interested.

Without giving too much of the storyline away, it was good to see Vincent's story/history being told. The truth behind his past and his connection to Lucrecia and Hojo was revealed, as was the truth behind his transformations and Chaos. Interestingly enough, Omega weapon makes an appearance, too.

It was also good to see Reeve's new face and his having a bit more presence in the game (although you do get to play as Cait Sith on one occasion. Playing a FPS as a small mechanical cat is interesting). Some of the locations are new - one chapter is set in Edge city, for example - but some old favourites are there, too - the train graveyard and the Shinra mansion. The graphics are great, and the cutscenes are as good as some of the Advent Children scenes. It's not a game I could play over and over, but as a fan of the story I'm keeping hold of it.

I thought I was the only one who thought FFXII was a bit light on story. Half the time, it felt like I was doing so many subquests (well, it felt like they were) that the main gist of the story was lost until the end. I don't think Vayne rates much as a FF villain, either. Still, maybe another playthrough will reveal bits and pieces that I missed.

I'd love to see how they'd go about remaking VI, although I'm happy with the cgi and new scenes they added to the playstation version. For the first time, it looked like the artwork of Yoshitaka Amano had been used as a base for the actual cgi graphics in the game. (On a side note, I found a picture of Amano's concept art of Sephiroth - and it looks like they kept that one fairly accurate, too.)

Perhaps I'm just being old fashioned, but maybe they shouldn't remake the older games. Whilst I'm not against seeing them again, especially for a new generation, I think they should concentrate on making the next few releases in the series better. Graphically, they're at the top of their game, but if they could make a new game that could rival the early ones in story, then I think they'd have an even bigger success.

This thread has made me all nostalgic now! I might have to dig out the game and play it through again.


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## thaddeus6th

I've played the following:
FFI (not completed (NC))
FFII NC
FFIV NC (but I got very close to the end, was just highly underlevelled)
FFV (NC, as above)
FFVII C
FFVIII C
FFIX C
FFX C
FFX-2 C
FFXII C

FFI: plot not required. Basically there are 4 crystals, each carried by a good guy who wander around doing goodly deeds. That's the 'plot'. On the plus side, you get to choose what each character (I use the term loosely) will be from six classes, and their names. It's got a certain charm, and I got quite far into it. It's also surprisingly difficult, and money is very tight. The lack of any character development or coherent plot makes it less than great though.
3/10

FFII was a bit dull, to be honest. I'll include my view for completeness, but I only played an hour or two. The story is ok, though stereotypical (evil empire overruns peaceful kingdom etc), and your job is to help the kingdom become free again. I couldn't get into it.
2/10

FFIV is great. The main character is properly developed, his best friend is properly developed, the little girl he rescues is a fully fledged character. The storyline is good bordering on great. Although the graphics (as for V) are clearly dated, they're still quite charming and you can see what's what. This may be my favourite FF... I really should go back and finish it. The only downside is combat. Turns are (I think) random, ATB not being introduced until V and skills are gained at preset levels.
9/10

FFV has perhaps the best system of skills I've come across in FF, with the fabled Job system. Basically, every character can choose a Job, and over time they learn skills specific to that Job (such as using axes if you're a berserker). They can then use one learnt skill whilst occupying a different Job (so a Knight could use axes if the player had learnt that skill). Simple, fun and allows for good strategy (combining white magic with a Knight or suchlike). A decent villain, a good storyline and great gameplay.
8/10

FFVII was great. Ok, so the characters look like the designer was on acid at the time, but that's one of the few gripes I have with it. Sephiroth was a great villain, the storyline was good (and relevant with its nuclear parallels), the gameplay was solid and the chocobo breeding sidequest was great fun. The ending was excellent.
9/10

FFVIII. I wish they'd thought more about the battle system. Using Draw 14 times to get enough spells to boost stats (meaning when you cast them your stats fall...) was just irritating, then infuriating. Interesting idea to go for a kind of love story, which I thought was done reasonably well. Seifer was a rubbish villain though, and Ultimecia's appearance seemed to come out of nowhere. I also found the Laguna episodes time-consuming for little return: why not just use cutscenes? However, the GF ability to refine items into other, better items, and Triple Triad was a cool game.
7/10

FFIX. I quite enjoyed this. The villainous transvestite should've been, well, better. Characters were either ok or good (Vivi in particular was excellent), and the Pandemonium harpsichord music was great. Gameplay was also very good, and the synthesis shops were (I think) the first time I'd come across the item-combining idea, used again in FFXII and Dragon Quest VIII.
8/10

FFX had great graphics, a decent storyline (though the 'boss' wasn't to my liking at all), nice gameplay and decent sidequests. However, Tidus voice drove me literally insane. After I recovered from total madness, I finished the game (ending could've been better). Pretty good, despite the sound of a seal pup being machine-gunned to death being used as the main character's voice.
8/10

FFX-2 is interesting...I just wish they hadn't made it so damn girly. With a slightly more traditional storyline and party it could've actually been a top rpg. As it is the storyline lets it down. The dress-spheres work pretty well with the combat system and gameplay's good. Using mandatory and voluntary missions to determine the ending is pretty innovative, and the learning skills through doing actions wearing a given sphere harks back to V. Rikku's hairstyle was better in FFX though.
7.5/10

XII was poorer than it should have been. The graphics (cutscenes aside) could've been better, voice-acting was generally good except for Vaan (who also had the most angular sixpack this side of a 16-bits). Character development was generally pants. I really liked the judges and that side of the storyline, but they should've had more of that.The battle system was very good, though perhaps the licence points were given away too easily. Most of the character seemed of little relevance or interest, particularly Vaan and Penelo. I did enjoy the Hunt sidequest though, even though Phantasy Star IV did it first, about 15 years ago.
8/10 

From that, I reckon that old school games (excepting the earliest editions) generally had better plots, because they couldn't rely on swanky graphics or complex gameplay.


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## Quokka

No one's mentioned *Final Fantasy Tactics, *has anyone played it and if so was it any good? This was a big missed opportunity for me (it wasn't released in Australia) as I always preferred that battle system having been a fan of the Shining Force series. Every now and again I think about picking up a PS1 or 2 now they are so much cheaper and FFT would be one of the biggest reasons why.

I loved FF7 though funnily enough I've never played any of the games afterwards (I think I had played some of the earlier ones but I might be confusing rpgs), after the PS1 my next console was the xbox which although its a great console, was a mistake for me. Alot of the games I've wanted over the years have been PS only.

Vincent was definitely a favourite character, was there a point at which you couldn't get him to join the party? I seem to remember having to restart the game, cursing all the while that he had better be worth it, his limit breaks alone meant that of course he was. I never played with Red XIII only because before I started playing FF7 I had spent lots of time watching a friend play it, Red XIII was his favourite and so I wanted to see different characters.

If we're being careful of spoilers I'll just say that _that_ part  annoyed the hell out of me at the time, an early favourite and I never saw it coming at all. Brilliant for the storyline and personally it's gotta be up there as one of the best moments in gaming.

I'm almost sure the first time I fought one of the final battles it ended in one turn! I'm not sure if it was Sephiroth or Jenova but without meaning to I entered the fight with Cloud maxed out for his last limit break which I had just gained, everything seemed to click and that was pretty much that. Was a bit disapointing so I went back and did it all again.

The graphics at the time were simply amazing and it was such a huge risk trying to match all 3? versions of the characters (battle / town exploration / cut scenes?) and not just have people be able to recognise each one but be able to feel for the characters and story as a whole.  That for me was  probably their biggest achievement.

I wonder how many years have been spent worldwide trying to breed the perfect chocobo


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## Overread

Quokka said:


> If we're being careful of spoilers I'll just say that _that_ part annoyed the hell out of me at the time, an early favourite and I never saw it coming at all.


 
To be honest I think most peole know of this even if they haven't played the game - such a pivital moment - and it never happened again

On the tactics front - there is a new release of the game on the PSP currently (I haven't played) and another realease which appears to be an updated version of the GBA tactics, to be released at some point on the DS - which I will be playing when it comes out in the UK _ so the rest of the world better not spoil it for me in the extra months that I have to wait!

"No, no, I loved the materia system too! _Hated _the junction system in VIII. "
The only problem I found was that I used GFs to kill everything and never used the characters - consequently when I met bosses I sometimes had to go back to level up my characters as they would get killed before the GFs could summon - as a point why have we seen Q (I wont even try to spell) the flying lightning bird-my favourite GF.

Just out of interest, has anyone played the FFIII game on the DS? It a good game, though reveiwers whined about it not using the duel screen well, but I consider that to be trivial - most DS games use it just to show a map or extra details that after a few hours play you don't need to see. The other complaint they had was that the game was hard - - - not sure what they're moning about there I prefer a game that is a challenge to play - otherwise they might as well just make a short film.


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## Giovanna Clairval

Ignoramus me!

What is The One Winged Angel? Sephiroth himself? A video? A section of the game?

Signed:

The Lady Who Changes Her Hair Colour


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## Talysia

Quokka said:


> I wonder how many years have been spent worldwide trying to breed the perfect chocobo


 
I cheated a bit, I have to say.  With the help of the player's guide.

(Mind you, there was always the option of beating Ruby Weapon.  I did it the other way round - bred the gold chocobo, got Knights of the Round, and then beat Ruby.  Then I had two gold chocobos.  Seemed a bit pointless, really.)

Giovanna, Sephiroth is the One Winged Angel, and it's also the title of his theme in the game.  That has to be one of the best pieces of music in any game, in my opinion.


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## thaddeus6th

There's also an orchestral version of the One Winged Angel, about half the length of the in-game music (4 mins roughly). It's excellent. You used to be able to get tons of FF and other game music from a site called Galbadia Hotel, but I think they've cut back on a lot of their available downloads.


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## Lenny

Awww. Now we have no excuse for hijacking!! 

---

Mind if I fan the flames of pure, unadulterated rumour a little more?

Famitsu hints at Final Fantasy VII remake :: PlayStation Universe (PSU)

Of course, one must remember that this is PURE RUMOUR.

But I must say, I do like the look of this sentence:



> Also, according to rumor, the Square Enix-developed project is being fully funded by Sony Computer Entertainment.


 
If Squenix do make a remake, then not only will it be graphically superior to everything out there, but I reckon Squenix might add extra content. Maybe package the game as *Final Fantasy VII: Final Mix* like they've been doing with the extended Kingdom Hearts games.

---

Anyway, Final Fantasy. FFXIII!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's the Squenix Conference at TGS tomorrow, I think, and one of the games that is being given time, if only in video form, is FFXIII. So far what we've seen is pre-rendered CGI, although it has been hotly argued by some that a variety of scenes were actually in-game renders, not from cutscenes but from the fighting system.


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## McMurphy

From what I understand, the source of the Final Fantasy VII remake is Sony's re-rendering of a FFVII cut scene at a industry conference to demonstrate the Playstation 3's capabilities.

But you never know....if there is a large fan reaction to the idea of a FFVII remake, it may be more than enough incentive for SquareEnix to cash in.


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## Lenny

More than just a large fan reaction, and that's even with Squenix having said, various times, that it's not happening. 

The re-rendering was done by Squenix as a Tech Demo for Sony's E3 2005 Press Conference, where they officially announced the PS3. For those who want to see it: Gametrailers.com - Final Fantasy VII, Sony Press Conference

Recently, this was discovered: Final Fantasy VII remake confirmed in Crisis Core? :: PlayStation Universe (PSU)

At the end of *FFVII: Crisis Core*, after beating the game for a second time, a similar video to the Tech Demo above is played (it contains a couple of extra things). At the end of the trailer is the image:







The Famistu rumour I posted above is a couple of days old. There was also news, a day or two ago, of a new FFVII game (most probably a spin-off) called *Endless Crisis: Final Fantasy VII*.

Endless Crisis: Final Fantasy VII to be announced at TGS? :: PlayStation Universe (PSU)

Should be interesting to see what exactly comes from the Squenix Conference tomorrow.


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## Sephiroth

*Talysia*, you've made me want to play _Dirge _even more.  I don't mind FPS, I'll play anything if it's good.  I agree that FFXII was all subquests and not much story.  It was really disappointing that Vayne was all there was.  

What you say about the story is the crux of it for me.  They can make it look and feel as ultra-realistic as they want, but we play it for the story, and with the standards they set in the past, we have high expectations now.  

*thaddeus*, great comments, many good points made.  The one about Tidus' voice was perhaps my favourite - it drove me crazy, too!  Vaan and Penelo's slack Californian in XII wasn't brilliant, either.  I agree with pretty much everything you said about the ones I've played, and it's interesting to hear what you thought of the others.  

*Quokka*, I'm not sure if there's a point beyond which you couldn't go back and get Vincent, but from what you're saying it sounds like it.  I always got him when I first reached Nibelheim, although I didn't like his limit breaks since you lost control of him for the rest of the fight.  He is definitely one of the coolest, but not one of my favourites for battle.  

It sounds like the fight you are describing at the end of VII is the Jenova-SYNTHESIS fight.  With Cloud's omnislash that would certainly be a one-hit fight!  I had this problem at the end of FFX.  Once I had beaten Nemesis and Penance, the end was just ridiculously easy.  

*Overread*, _Quetzalcoatl _was a nice-looking GF, named after the feathered serpent god of the Aztecs.  One problem with junctioning for me (apart from the incessant, _boring _drawing of magic) was that it decreased the incentive to level up, especially once you had powerful spells like Ultima.  

I don't know much about the _Tactics _games at all.  Anyone?  Haven't played FFIII on the DS yet, either, but I know someone who has.......

*Lenny*, thanks for the links.  Let us know what happens tomorrow!  

Speaking of _Ultima_, favourite spells, anyone?


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## Talysia

Favourite spells? Ultima is always good, but I'm rather partial to Comet or Meteor myself, especially the multiple hit aspect of it. I think for FFVII, I used the summons more in boss fights than individual spells (well, later in the game anyway - the fight against Schizo means you have to use magic a lot), when I wasn't using the Limit Breaks.

I definitely agree about the drawbacks of using the Draw command in FFVIII. Not being able to level up in the conventional way was a pain (It was a little like that in FFXII - the license board was a nice touch, though). I liked the Materia system for the fact that anyone could just equip it and use it, rather than having a set of spells for each character.

Haste is always useful, too. Oh, and barrier/Mbarrier.

Hmm, spells from other games... I liked the idea of Apocalypse in FFVIII, although you get it so late in the game that it's all but useless. Oil is a nice status spell in FFXII (especially used in conjunction with Firaga), and anything that weakens defence (Meltdown, DeBarrier etc).

On an unrelated note, reading what Quokka and Thaddeus said about chocobos put the chocobo theme music in my head all day yesterday.


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## Sephiroth

.......and now you've put it in mine!  

Apocalypse was a great idea, yes (it sort of inspired me in my writing as well, along with Ultima, which is my favourite offensive spell by far - but _only _when it's green!  Why the hell transvestite Kuja was the only one who could use it in IX, and why it was _pink_, I have no idea...)

Haste is invaluable.  I would add Dispel to that list, I couldn't live without Dispel in the later stages of any game.  I have a tendency not to use the summons as much.  Actually, I only use magic where it's necessary (or in those fights, like Schizo, where it's more efficient).  Normally I have my chars set up for their strongest-possible physical attacks, and I just chop up anything that gets in my way.  

My biggest problem with the License Board was that I had finished it halfway through the game.  I really liked the Sphere Grid in X.  I suppose the only pain with materia was swapping them around, but of all the systems, materia made most sense in pure storyline terms, I think?


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## Talysia

Oh, definitely.  Materia was one of the most logical magic systems in all of the FF games in terms of the story.  Calling it the knowledge or the wisdom of the ancients rather than magic (even within the game dialogue, too), and actually focusing on it being the crystallized form of the Lifestream was one of the best ways of dealing with magic use in an RPG, in my opinion - and I've played a lot.  The command materia was pretty useful, especially the ones that enabled you to hit all enemies at once, or 2xcut/4x/cut.

That said, I never used much magic against bosses, either.  For the final battles against Jenova/Sephiroth (both forms) I just used physical attacks, too (with a Cloud/Cid/Tifa line up).  Omnislash, Highwind, and Tifa's slot Limit breaks decimated him in very short order indeed.  Ruby and Emerald put up more of a challenge.  I'm really glad that the tougher bosses were added to the international versions.

Now that I think about it, none of the final bossfights have been excessively difficult - it's always been the hidden bosses that provide the challenge.


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## Sephiroth

Absolutely. The only time I've had a real epic fight with an end boss was in IX, when I rushed through the story the first time just to see what happens. Fighting Necron at about Lv. 50 was a decent challenge.......but what was the point in Necron? Seemed to have no relation to the story at all?!

4xcut was unbelievable.  I remember being _very _excited when I got that materia.  The thing in VI, the _Offering_, that lets one person hit eight times is pretty spectacular, too!  (eight times with the Genji Glove, I should say)

I've haven't played all that many console RPGs other than the FF games, but I'm not surprised to hear you say that.  _Everything _about FFVII just seems to fit into place, creating a nice, rounded whole.  It's so satisfying...

So here's my Ruby Weapon story:  
The first time I fought Ruby Weapon, I hadn't figured the _Whirlsand _thing out, and lost two of my characters pretty early in the fight.  I fought on, though, and managed to beat it with just Cloud (thank god it was _Cloud _who was left)!  But, as it was dying, the game crashed, and I was left with the red, fading shadow of a vanquished enemy stuck on the screen.

I beat Emerald Weapon inside the 20-min time limit, without using the underwater materia.  _Apparently _there are folk who have beaten it with only one character, though!  Can you believe that?

Where optional bosses are concerned, Penance is the daddy of daddies.  That fight lasted the best part of three hours, for me, and every single turn I faced prospective annihilation.  Without Auto-Life it would be impossible!  

Anyone else vanquished Penance?  And Nemesis?  (both from FFX)


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## thaddeus6th

Not sure...I slew some ultra tough boss from X, but can't remember the name. In the Omega Ruins I think. 

If you want to try some other rpgs, then I urge you to try Shadow Hearts and Shadow Hearts Covenant. They're excellent. Dragon Quest VIII is ok too. Oh, and there's a Sega Genesis (Megadrive) Collection for the ps2 that has Phantasy Star IV on it. PSIV is perhaps the best rpg I've ever played, even though it's about a decade and a half old, the storyline and characters are fantastic.


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## Sephiroth

Nah, that was Omega Weapon.  You fight both Ultima and Omega Weapon in the Omega Ruins (good place to level up, too).  Omega Weapon is tough (depending on when you fight him), with an HP of around 1 million.  Nemesis' HP is 10,000,000.  Penance's HP is 12,000,000.  To fight Nemesis you have to complete the Battle Arena captures/fights.  To fight Penance you must defeat all the Dark Aeons.  

Thanks for the recommendations (have seen Dragon Quest, looks similar to FF but more 'cartoony').  It's not that I haven't been interested in playing other RPGs, have just never been sure which, if any, will live up to my FF experiences........


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## Talysia

I never got to defeat Penance or Nemesis, sadly, although I gave it a good try.  I did get most of the Dark Aeons, but Penance eluded me, and then I traded in the game, thus losing the chance.  (At the time, I was disillusioned by the ending - even though it was sort of redeemed in FFX-2.)  I might see if I can't pick it up second hand and give it another go.  The same can't be said for X-2, though.

Necron was a better challenge, although I agree that it seemed to have no relevance whatsoever to the story.  Brahne was a fairly good villain, as was Kuja (if a little odd), Garland seemed a bit pointless and non-threatening, and Necron hadn't even been introduced in the story.  I was still pleased when I beat it, but looking back...

I think the most satisfying optional bossfight for me was Omega Weapon in FFVIII (in Ultimecia's castle).  I think I was able to beat him without losing a character, largely thanks to Aura magic (Now that's one I should've added to my list of favourite spells.  That was useful!), Holy War items, and Zell's limit break.

Sorry to hear about what happened at the end of the Ruby fight, though.  I had a similar problem with the whirlsand, so I started the fight with only Cloud alive and waited until it buried its claws.  Then I brought the others back and did a chain of Knights of the Round and Mime.  I don't know why, but Ultima seemed to miss hitting everyone several times.  Very unusual.  For Emerald, I got the underwater materia but beat him under 20 minutes anyway.  I remember being annoyed that I'd gone to so much trouble.  Oh, and many's the time I exited the crashed Gelnika to find Emerald sitting right outside and initiating a fight without meaning to (before I beat it, anyway).


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## thaddeus6th

Oh yeah. I am quite rubbish at doing 100% of sidequests, and just barely scraped a victory over Omega Weapon. Think I took down a couple of Dark Aeons, but that's all.

Dragon Quest is pretty cartoony, graphics-wise, but the voice-acting's nice (all English, just about, which is a change) and it's quite old school.

Shadow Hearts and SH: Covenant are both excellent. I'd put both of them above every recent FF barring perhaps VII. Hmm, maybe I should do a review of them.


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## Sephiroth

*thaddeus*, maybe you should; I will certainly keep them in mind if I can free up some cash for frivolity.  Have heard the accents in one of the Dragon Quest games, and I agree, it's nice.  

*Talysia*, interesting to hear you say that FFX-2 redeemed the ending, because I felt the same way about the ending in X.  Given that the two opinions I have from women who have played X-2 are so negative, I can't ever see me, as a brutish male p) playing it, so I might have a look at a plot synopsis for it.

Couldn't agree more about Garland.  He was _super-weak_.  Wasn't mad keen on Kuja, though, and I objected strongly to his monopoly on Ultima...

I completely forgot about _Omega _Weapon in FFVIII!  Of course, that was a _much _better fight than the one at the Deep Sea Deposit (although that one sticks in my mind more, for some reason)!  Been a long time since I played VIII.  Returning to end bosses, I thought the Ultimecia fight was quite cool, even if it could've been a little harder........

_Aura _increased the frequency of your limit breaks, right?

I had to laugh reading what you said about exiting the Gelnika - that happened to me a lot, too!  Did you morph a lot of Luck Sources?  That might explain the Ultima misses?  

I should add that I didn't use Knights of Round for Ruby - I didn't even get it until after Ruby was dead!  I _did _use it for Emerald, though.  Tried a few times without it, but kept timing out.......


----------



## Talysia

Funny you should say that, but I didn't morph any luck sources (although I did give the cumulative total of them in the game to Cloud, as a rule) so I'm still a little confused as to why it missed so often.  I was glad it did, though.

The fight against Ultimecia was a much better bossfight, I'll agree.  Every time I defeated one stage, I thought that was it and that the game was over - thinking, bring on the ending and the credits - only to be surprised when another version of her popped up to be destroyed.  I very nearly lost the game on the final section, getting wiped out by Apocalypse really close to the end, only to have all three party members revived by a random use of a phoenix pinion that I'd used earlier.  I still had no idea that they worked like that.  I used Aura (yep, the one that enabled limit breaks) a lot in that one, too.

I played Dragon Quest, and it was really refreshing to hear English accented voices for a change.  I didn't really get on as well with it as I did the other RPGs I'd played, although that might be the reason right there.  Maybe it was because I was also playing through Dirge of Cerberus at the same time...I don't know.  Still, if I were to go back and play it again, it might be different now.


----------



## Sephiroth

*thinks he should have given Phoenix Pinions a little more respect*

I never used any, but if _that_'s what they do, I wish I had...

I kept getting reduced to seriously critical by Apocalypse, but thankfully she gives you just enough time to get cured-up and tank her a few times before she recasts.  Have you noticed that, _very _occasionally in battles, the computer will take two shots for the price of one?  If _that _had happened I would've been dead.  I can't help but call that 'cheating' on the part of the game.  

A friend of mine owns one of the Dragon Quests, I may see if I can borrow it from her.  

I am the sort of _sad _person who went and figured out which creatures, when morphed, will give you 'Sources', and then I collected them and powered my characters up to a crazy degree of hardness.  

Favourite summoning out of any of the games?


----------



## Talysia

Sephiroth said:


> I am the sort of _sad _person who went and figured out which creatures, when morphed, will give you 'Sources', and then I collected them and powered my characters up to a crazy degree of hardness.
> 
> Favourite summoning out of any of the games?


 
You're not the only one.  I had the player's guide, so of course I was able to see which monsters you could morph into power sources. 

Favourite summoning?  That's a tough one.  I loved the chubby chocobo/Choco-mog summon in FFVII, and Bahamut in any incarnation is always good (What can I say - I like dragons).  Fenrir in FFIX was pretty cool, too, as were Odin (who doesn't love Zantetsuken?) and Eden from FFVIII, just for the fact that damage dealt can exceed 9999.  The one gripe I have with the FF summonings is that some of them take so long.

Actually, I think it would be Bahamut.


----------



## thaddeus6th

Bahamut. Always a high damage summon, and undoubtedly the coolest.


----------



## Sephiroth

Well, there's effectiveness (damage, or whatever), and then there's just sheer _coolness_.  For sheer coolness, as well as for his ZERO and 'Dark' incarnations, the Lord of Dragons is hard to beat.  And Odin, as you say.  I even love the _word _Zantetsuken!    Yojimbo was sort of similar, but he was a rip-off merchant!

Eden was awesome, for the break damage limit thing.  I liked the _idea _of Ultima in XII (Ultima and Zodiark were both good fights, as was Cuchulainn), but the Espers in that game are pretty useless.  

For sheer carnage, I suppose it's Knights of Round, but that one in particular takes _way _too long.  

At the end of the day, I think I agree with Bahamut.  

Also Anima, though, just because of the sheer relief I felt when I realised I _hadn't_ failed to pick up the Knight Lance in Bevelle (you can't go back).  Thought I had mucked up the whole game for myself, missing that.......


----------



## thaddeus6th

Anima was pretty cool. I didn't like the appearance of Bahamut in X, but maybe that's just being picky. I thought the others were pretty good, especially Ifrit.


----------



## Sephiroth

No, you have a point.  He looked a bit 'humanoid'.  Was that it?


----------



## thaddeus6th

Humanoid, and bright and shiny. He looked less like a dragon and more like dragon-meets-transformers-or something like that. That circle thing on his back was a bit pointless.


----------



## Sephiroth

The glyph?  Somehow I liked the glyph, since glyphs were relevant to summoning in the story, but yes, it was the worst he's looked by far.


----------



## Talysia

Lol, I thought that myself.  Overall, the summoning designs have been pretty good, though, especially after seeing some of the artwork.  In fact, I like all of the FF designs - character and monster.


----------



## Sephiroth

Me too, really.

Favourite monster, then? (this should be interesting)


----------



## Talysia

That's a tough question.  Ok, here goes:

Firstly, I have to say Tonberries.  Little green monster in a robe with a knife, and it does a lot of damage.  From a design aspect, I love the Griffins and Hippogriffs from FFVII, and the same goes for the Ruby dragons in FFVIII.  

It's been a while since I played FFIX, so I can't really remember too many of the monsters.  FFX, though, I liked the flying fish monsters (I can't remember the names) in Macalania Woods.  In FFXII, I liked the Wolf type monsters.

Overall, I'd have to say the Griffin types.  I'm a fan of griffins, too.

As an aside, I really dislike Malboros.  That bad breath status attack is really annoying when you've only got two ribbons (in FFVII, at least).


----------



## Sephiroth

Well, I would have to say that my favourites are...

*drum roll*

.......Malboros!  

They're a real swine to fight (mainly because of Bad Breath), which I think is why I have so much respect for them.  Except in XII, I should say, where they are pitifully small and weak (only the 'Carrot' mark-hunt was decent).  And they look great (or horrible).  Viscous plants with teeth!

Tonberries, definitely.  First time you meet a Tonberry, you're not scared.  Every time you meet a Tonberry after that, you're _damn _scared, at least until you get super-buffed.  

Dragon-types are always among my favourites (and griffins are cool, too ).  The Chimaeras in the Calm Lands, in X, are pretty fierce-looking.  _Kyuvilduns_, a large, evil grasshopper in the Nibel Mountains, freaked me out a bit by the way it moved.  Some of the quirkier ones I liked included the 'eggs inside eggs' that you fought near Costa del Sol, but Magic Pots, I am afraid to say, I found incredibly annoying.  

Oh, and I hate fighting them because of their resistance to physical attack, but I have to add Flans.  Flans are funny.  

Also, those green things you fought in the forest around Mideel, just because of how long I spent there levelling-up.  

And the Varuna in X is a sort-of vampire-dragon thing that is _very _cool to look at.  

And Elementals.  I _love _Elementals, _they _might be my favourite, now that I think about it some more...


----------



## Talysia

I quite liked the Magic Pots in the Northern Cave, myself - as long as I had enough elixirs.  They were great for levelling up materia, as they gave 1000 AP after you destroy them (after you give them an elixir, of course).  

Flans _are_ funny!  I love the way they ooze apart after you beat them.  The Hedgehog Pies are quite funny, too (in Aeris' church the first time), but for sheer oddness you can't beat the Unknown types in the Gelnika.  

Actually, I just remembered what might have been the easiest bossfight in FFVII.  Gi Nattak, in the Cosmo Canyon Gi cave.


----------



## Sephiroth

The Magic Pots in the Northern Cave were definitely the best incarnation of them.  The ones in the Pharos in XII, though.....did you ever manage to get them to give you anything?  I tried giving them Elixir, as they asked for, but then they just ran around constantly until I got annoyed and killed them (their Flare magic was quite potent, too).  

I'm really protective of my Elixirs, since they're vital in big optional boss fights, when using an item is the quickest and easiest way to recover from near-annihilation.  They kept saying 'Gimme Elixir'.  I kept saying 'No'.  

The Unknowns are genuinely quite disturbing, I thought, yes.  They made the Gelnika feel like a really creepy place...

I remember the Gi Nattak.  Didn't it have a couple of floating Fire pylons either side of it?  Very easy, but good scene afterwards.  

A good boss is the Demon Wall, which makes an appearance in a few of the games.  The optional Demon Wall in XII was quite tough unless you were over-levelled.  

Bosses, though, that's its own category!   Favourite boss would have to be Safer-Sephiroth, but if we ignore end-bosses and optional bosses, the fight with Seymour on Mt Gagazet stands out as a challenging one.  And the Elemental Guardians in Memoria at the end of IX were just really cool.


----------



## Lenny

No word yet on *FFVII*, but there have been new videos of *FFXIII *and *Versus XIII*. Sadly they were shown behind closed doors, so no videos, but we have got descriptions.

TGS07: Final Fantasy XIII trailer impressions - PS3 Fanboy

TGS07: Final Fantasy Versus XIII trailer impressions - PS3 Fanboy

Never fear. TGS doesn't finish until the end of 23rd, so there's still plenty of time for announcements (and boy, are we still waiting for some big ones).


----------



## Talysia

I wasn't able to get anything from those Magic Pots, either. What a pain they were!

Agreed on the Safer Sephiroth bossfight. That has to be an all time favourite. As for other favourite bossfights, I loved the fights against the Turks in FFVII, as well as the heli gunner fight in the Shinra building. I enjoyed the Seymour battle as well, and the Evrae fight, too, although it was a bit on the easy side. Hmm... What else? I'll have to think a bit on that one.

Wow, thanks for the update, Lenny!


----------



## Sephiroth

Cheers, *Lenny*.

Okay, a couple of things jumped out at me:
_
*Final Fantasy XIII*

A gunman that seems to have specific mastery over water shoots a crystal, creating a massive water summon. Paths of ice form in the sky, as he rides along on a motorcycle.

Then a massive African-inspired scene provides a stark contrast to the futuristic environments we've seen of the game so far. Fantastic Mammoth-like beasts walk across a river in a scene that could've been ripped out of a Afrika gone slightly astray. Debuting in this new trailer was a brand new female character that stands, staring at a frozen planet orbiting in the sky.
_
*salivates*

As for _*Final Fantasy Versus XIII*_, I would have to copy/paste the whole article!  It sounds amazing, although as they say, we haven't seen any of the playable game.  Will this be the story we've been waiting for?

*Talysia*, how could I have forgotten the Turks?!  Shame on me!  I love those fights, especially the last, optional one.  The first time I played it, I didn't fight them, because Reno is so cool, and he didn't seem to want to fight any more.  Didn't realise I was missing out on the Tough Ring you can steal from him.  Needless to say, I learned my lesson...


----------



## Lenny

> As for _*Final Fantasy Versus XIII*_, I would have to copy/paste the whole article! It sounds amazing, although as they say, we haven't seen any of the playable game. Will this be the story we've been waiting for?


 
Most probably.

I think I'm right in saying that it's the first FF game the Tetsuya Nomura has been part of since FFVII that he's actually directing. Should be one hell of a ride!

You've seen the original FFXIII and Versus trailers, right?


----------



## Sephiroth

Sheesh, I have now.......

And again, the Versus one is the more impressive.  Stirring, even...

I can't wait.  The only thing I wish is that Uematsu was still doing the music.


----------



## Mithridelle

Uematsu isn't doing the music!?! Now that's depressing...


----------



## Sephiroth

No, he didn't do the music for XII, either.    And in X, he shared his duties with two other composers (although in that game, even the tunes that aren't his are good, I figure some of the master's genius temporarily rubbed-off on his disciples).


----------



## thaddeus6th

The music for XII was done by the guy who did Vagrant Story. Sadly the music wasn't up to VS levels (incidentally, VS is also a great game, but you should definitely make sure you know what sort of game it is beforehand as it isn't a standard rpg).

Favourite monster...hmm. I also liked the chimaera types found in X, and the three bouncing orange balls found in the crater of VII. They gave tons of experience, but were quite rare and enjoyed running away. 

If we're on favourite, then favourite music has to be tie between the Mako reactor theme and One Winged Angel, and second (third?) place to the Sorceress' theme from VIII.


----------



## Talysia

I liked those Orange Ball monsters too, for exactly that reason (although I remembered the Magic Pots more, for some reason).

Favourite music?  Now that's a tough question.  I think I like most of the music from FFVII - One Winged Angel is a favourite, as is the Jenova theme and the Cosmo Canyon theme rates very highly to me.  I liked the Sorceress' theme, too - very atmospheric - and there were a couple of pieces of music in FFIX I liked too, although I can't remember the names.  I'll try wracking my brains a bit more and see if I can't remember them to post later.


----------



## thaddeus6th

Oh yeah, Cosmo Canyon was cool, as was Red XIII. 

I could take or leave most tunes from IX, but the harpsichord-type music from Pandemonium was good.


----------



## Talysia

I think that was one of the tunes I liked, the harpsichord-type from the Pandemonium.  One down, one or two to go!


----------



## Sephiroth

I third the comment about the orange balls, they were cool.  

Music?  Hmmm...well, top ten from FFVII:

One Winged Angel (of course!)
Birth of a God (Bizzaro-Seph)
Jenova Absolute (SYNTHESIS fight)
Those Chosen By The Planet (Sephiroth's theme)
Still More Fighting (best boss music ever, IMO)
Cid's Theme
J-E-N-O-V-A
Mako Reactor
ShinRa Company
Turks' Theme

...oh, and Cosmo Canyon (and Red XIII's Theme), and Oppressed People (the Wall Market reggae tune).  The Main Theme, the tune from the boat crossing (It's Difficult to Stand on Both Feet, Isn't It?), Cait Sith's Theme, the Prelude is a _brilliant _opening...

...Forested Temple (of the Ancients), You Can Hear The Cry of the Planet (Forgotten Capital)...did I say ten?!   Pretty much _everything _in that game.  

The Liberi Fatali in VIII was a good tune, but my favourite was the Lunatic Pandora theme, it was wild.  I actually liked the _tune _of Eyes On Me p), but I could have lived without the vocals. 

I haven't played IX in a while, but I seem to remember a lot of the music evoking a Mediaeval sort of feel.  I liked it a lot.  

There were tons of good tunes in X.  Enemy Attack, the music when Sin appears in the water, I liked.  I probably have _far _too many favourites to name in that one, too (so this time I won't actually do it).


----------



## Mithridelle

I really like the 'Main Theme of FFVII' - aka the world map music. When you first start off and go out into the world it brings a feeling of excitement at beggining a new adventure, but as the story progresses, I find that the music hold a sad note and it depresses me slightly.


----------



## Sephiroth

I totally agree.  It's poignant; slightly melancholic...


----------



## Mithridelle

I also really enjoy hearing the music from the Sorceress Memorial in FFVIII.


----------



## Sephiroth

That was a good tune, too.


----------



## Quokka

I had a look at the ff7 summons on youtube which has made me want to go out and buy a PS again , apart from knights and bahamut my favourite summon was leviathan's tidal wave attack which looked great and Titan partly because it reminded me of another favourite attack, the Quake from the Wipeout series.

Favourite materias? probably counter/cover and magic barrier.


----------



## Talysia

Favourite materia? Hmm, that would be a toss up for me between Double Cut and Final Attack. Double Cut because it hit 4 times when it reached the next level (doing lots of damage if you had the right sword/weapon) and Final Attack because it was so useful towards the end of the game, especially with Ruby Weapon. 

Spells-wise, I liked Comet/Comet2, and for Command/Support materia who could forget Mega All?


----------



## Sephiroth

_Double Cut_ has to be a candidate, as well as _Mega All_, no doubt about that.  I didn't use _Final Attack_ in VII the way I relied upon Auto-Life in the hardest fights in X, though; I favoured _Quadra Magic_.  

Green ones: _FullCure_; _Contain_; _Shield _(was amazing)

Along with my most favourite, my treasured _Ultima _materia.  

_Mime _was good, too.  Free spells!


----------



## Talysia

Oh, how could I forget about Mime?  Mind you, I was a little disappointed the first time I tried it and found that you couldn't mime Limit Breaks... Still, I got over that little disappointment when I tried it with Knights of the Round.


----------



## Sephiroth

I've just realised that what I said above made no sense whatever!

Since when were _Final Attack_ and _Auto-Life_ the same thing?!  

Miming limit breaks?!  You don't expect much, do you!  

But yeah...130,000 damage points for free.  _Sweeeeet!_ 

What about our favourite playable characters, then?


----------



## Talysia

I relied on the Final Attack-Revive combination in the Ruby fight.  I guess I should have got more levels than I actually did...  As for Miming Limit Breaks, well, I had to give it a try...

Hmm, favourite playable characters...  From all of the games, that's a tough one.  I guess from FFVII, it would be Cloud, Vincent and Cid.  They always seemed to have the most interesting stories, and they were pretty balanced in battle (Vincent's limit breaks were unpredictable, so I never used them and made him an all round fighter/magic user instead).

Other prominent favourites include FFVIII's Zell, FFIX's Freya, FFX's Auron, and FFXII's Balthier - mostly all for battle.  I'd add Locke from FFVI, as well as Celes, too.  

Oh, and I liked the fact that Sephiroth actually joined the party for a bit, even if you couldn't control him in battle and it was only a flashback.  Even though it was only a small picture, the artwork on the character portrait was great.


----------



## Mithridelle

My favourite playable character would have to be FFVII's Cloud (surprise surprise...) I guess you could say I love all of the main characters - but I love fighting with LV99 Tidus with the sword that has 'Break Damage Limit' - now that makes the end of the game impossibly easy!


----------



## thaddeus6th

Hmm...favourite characters...

Cecil and Kain, both from IV. Cecil's the protagonist, a dark knight struggling to keep himself good despite using the dark blade and Kain's his best friend. However, Kain secretly loves Rosa, Cecil's girlfriend!

I like Red XIII and Vincent from VII. Red's quite a cool clever guy, for a mere 48 year old, and Vincent was quite interesting though I don't know the full Hojo/Lucretia backstory.


----------



## Talysia

Vincent does have one of the more interesting stories (although I won't give any spoilers to his connections to Lucrecia and Hojo - in Dirge of Cerberus, at least) in this thread.  

I forgot about Cecil and Kain, to tell the truth (It's been quite a while since I played IV) but I remember them as good characters.


----------



## Mithridelle

How about peoples favourite weapons? Of course one has to love all the best weapons, but come on - Clouds _Nail Bat_ was teh-awsome.


----------



## Talysia

Best weapons, hmm?  For appearance, I rather liked Cid's Mop weapon, not to mention Aeris' Flayer (although the Parasol was good, too).  I suppose the ones I used all the time would be the ultimate weapons - Cloud's Ultima Weapon, Cid's Venus Gospel, and Vincent's Death Penalty.

From other FF games, though, I liked the DeathBringer in FFXII - possibility of killing the monster outright with one hit - and the gunblade in FFVIII was rather interesting.  I think the weapons in all the games are pretty good.


----------



## Overread

Jumping back in to cast my vote for the gunblade - a great idea
Also have you heard of the transforming weapons comming in FFXIII - a full sci-fi world with transforming guns (will there me mechs?)


----------



## Sephiroth

I didn't use Vincent so much for fighting (apart from Cait Sith he was my least used character, but he _is _incredibly cool).  I wasn't so fond of his weapons, though, compared to some of the others.  

The flashback at Kalm when you first see Sephiroth is amazing.  At that point you can only take off a couple of hundred with your hits, and he is taking off four or five thousand.  Maybe the fact that it was my first experience playing an FF game that made it so impressive, but I was in awe of Sephiroth from that point onwards.......

My favourite characters (roughly in order for each game):
FFVI - Terra, Sabin, Locke, Edgar
FFVII - Aeris, Cloud, Cid (and Vincent because he's cool)
FFVIII - Rinoa, Zell, Quisits (Squall was a complete pain!)
FFIX - Garnet, Freya, Vivi
FFX - Yuna, Wakka, Rikku, Tidus (the latter three were my 'dream team' for the Penance fight)
FFXII - Ummm.......well, Vaan, Ashe and Basch were normally my fighting squad.

Best weapons?  Well, I liked the comedy ones you guys have mentioned, but my favourite is (surprise) the _Ultima Weapon_.  Also Cid's _Venus Gospel_, and Yuffie's _Conformer _was a powerful ranged weapon.  The gunblades were cool.  I also liked Quistis' best whip, the _Save the Queen_.  

In X, anything with Break Damage Limit suited me fine.  

And in XII, both the Tournesol and the Masamune (of course!) caught my fancy.  

Overread, I hadn't heard of the transforming weapons.  Sounds cool!


----------



## Lenny

I know for a fact that the Summons in *FFXIII *transform, don't know about *FF Versus XIII*, though.

In the FFXIII trailers, so far, we have seen _Shiva_ transform into a motorbike, and so the general feeling is that all summons in FFXIII (so far we know Shiva, _Ifrit_ and _Bahamut_) will transform into something _useful_ (such as a motorbike).

Anyway, on the subject of an *FFVII* remake, new FFVII game, or a new FFXIII game... TGS is over, and there's been nothing. Looks like the hype train dropped us all off at Fool's Avenue. 

The next big Video Games convention is *Jump Festa* in December, I think. We might hear something about FFXIII at least there.


----------



## Talysia

I hadn't heard of the transforming weapons either, but I'd love to see them in action.

No FFVII remake?  I have mixed feelings about that.  Half of me would have loved to see it, and the other...

Ok, then, how about favourite FF villains? I think I already know how most of us are going to answer...


----------



## Sephiroth

Well, thanks for keeping us up to date on the FF developments.  

What you say about the summons is intriguing!  I wonder how that will fit into the story?

*settles down to wait for Jump Festa*

[edit]  Villains, Talysia?!



Let me think about this one....... 

Other than myself (since it's _too _obvious), I would say Kefka is my 'favourite' villain.  He's not a tragic villain like Sephiroth, he's an unbalanced, psychopathic, evil nutcase!  He has some great scenes, and some funny lines......

Edea made quite a good prospective villain in VIII (although you know what happens there).  Ultimecia was a great fight, but she appeared too late in the story for me to really care about her much.  

Kuja, for me, was ever so slightly lame by comparison.  And Necron was bewildering.......

Which brings me to XII, and the hugely disappointing Vayne Solidor. 

Sephiroth and Kefka, for _main _villains!  (and Jenova )

But I have to say, Scarlet and Hojo are two of my favourite villains.  Especially Hojo, the twisted genius.  

We can't call the Turks villains, can we?


----------



## Talysia

It's funny how everyone loves Sephiroth

He's got to be one of my favourite villains, too.  Kefka was great, as was Edea, although I agree about Kuja and Necron, though I'd add Seymour to the list of slightly disappointing bad guys.  Vayne wasn't great, either (Gabranth or Cid would have been better, in my opinion).  I liked Hojo - especially now that he features in two games I've played - although I wasn't fond of Scarlet.  The slap fight on the end of the Junon Cannon was funny, though!  I liked Heideggar instead (for comedy value).

And no - the Turks couldn't be called villains!  Especially since they help out so much in Advent Children.  Rufus gave it a good try, though.


----------



## Sephiroth

I think it's a great testament to Sephiroth's character design and back-story that we all think so much of him, even though he....well, you know..... 

Good point about Seymour, he really was a bit of a let-down.  Again, things get bewildering in FFX, eventually (won't say too much, but Yu-Yevon?!)

Gabranth and Cid were both much stronger characters than Vayne, no doubt.  Although my vote would go to Venaat (I really thought more was going to come of all that...).  

I forgot about the slap fight!  That _bitch! _ Maybe I don't like her after all!  Don't know why I didn't mention Heidegger, he makes me laugh... 

I can't help having a sneaking respect for Rufus, especially since we find out he survived.  But he's a sinister dude.  

Who's your favourite Turk?


----------



## Talysia

Favourite Turk?  That would be a toss up between the inimitable Reno and the inscrutable Tseng, for me.


----------



## Sephiroth

Yeah.  Reno, for me, then Tseng.  Elena is funny, though.


----------



## Lith

Ramble to our hearts content, huh?
I love, love, LOVE FF12. It's the beginning, middle, and end of all video games. The immersiveness of the world, it's detail, it's greater attention to what a world ought and ought NOT to look like, based on an actual understanding (for the most part) of climate and geography. I love the characters, the low annoyance factor, the low "groan-and-shake-the-head" factor. The gameplay. 

For the record I've played: FF7,FF8,FF9,FF10,FF10-2,FF12, and FFT. I bogged down midway through FFT (each individual battle is too long), and am at (but have not beaten) the final boss in FF8. 

I dont' normally collect/do everything; usually only enough to get by. I intend to play 12 through comprehensively though, which was supposed to happen this summer but is still waiting for free time. Otherwise, I tend to run through the game at the lowest level possible, since grinding is dull as heck. Which has the nice effect of making all the games harder. I'm consistently two or three levels UNDER those recommended by walkthroughs.

I've beaten more bosses than I can count with about 5HP left, no PDs, no extra elixirs/potions/MP,Ethers,MegaElixirs, etc. And a fair number with only one character left standing. Well, except the part about megalixirs- I will usually rather die than use them, since you only get one or two during the entire game and you'll need them for the final boss.

Memorable moments- running through the entire Sochen Cave Palace, beating the five little monsters, and two other bosses, in a three-hour run, with no save point (because I literally wore myself out fighting the one inside the cave and couldn't damage it a bit, meaning I had to fight the next boss, with no backup supplies), for a grand total of three boss fights in three hours, with no saves. Also, fighting Yunalesca in FF10, mostly for dying two or three times after forty minutes of continuous battle each time.

I've seen Advent Children and I LOVE it. I'm not a mindless FF7 fanatic (though I love it), and as long as you keep in mind that the movie's really more of a music video than an actual story, it'll be one of the most beautiful hour-and-a-half pieces of film out there (Yes, I know it isn't that good, _as a movie_.) It's probably the DVD in my collection that has gotten the most play.

I even love FFX-2. I've played it through very close to completion, trying to get the 100% ending. The NewGamePlus is a great feature, I have three Catnips now so I can crawl through the final boss of the Bevelle Dungeon, when I get around to it. Sucks though that the game guide left out one activity that I had to have for the perfect ending, and it's one I have to replay the entire thing through again to get. I didn't like it that well at first, but I've put twice as many hours into it as the original, and have found that hiding under the apparent shallowness are some interesting plot themes, and some disturbing undercurrents to the newfound peace of Spira. That and it's almost the only RPG out there that gives you not one, but THREE main characters that are women. Probably the only one that only gives you women. It's a refreshing change, even in its girlier moments.

Favorite baddie is Sephiroth, tied with Vayne from FF12. Vayne is actually a pretty interesting character.

I've tried other RPGs, but there's something Final Fantasy does consistently that keeps me busy as a gamer (well, as busy as I can be- don't have so much time for games anymore)- they have really intriguing stories, and they're just BETTER than other games, for whatever reason.

I tried to beat a Weapon once, and that was enough for me. Too time-consuming, and too much running around on tedious missions to get what I need to beat them. I also tried that underwater secret boss in 9, but he was also too hard for me. 

I'm also mixed on an FF7 remake- can you imagine the Wall Market sequence having any of the charm in a newer version? And some of those mistranslations and bad bits of grammar were really funny. As much as I like AC, it takes itself too seriously sometimes, and I'm afraid that's how they'll revise FF7. I think it's only a matter of time before they remake the game. They have all these side-projects that look so much better than the original game (which I think looks terrible), and HUGE fan interest in seeing it remade.

I liked 8's draw system, but I don't think I understand the Junction system too well, even after playing most of the game.

FF12's story- it's been well hacked out on fansites by now, but I think it's great, and NOT lacking. It could be longer and more in-depth, and I would love it if it were, but I don't feel it was lacking in comparison with the other games. And I liked that it was more political and less personal, and for once there wasn't any romance, though that's something I like in the other games.  Oh, and Fran's voicework in 12 was amazing. Never heard one quite like it. 

Favorite spell is Curaga/Curaja. Otherwise I think the only other spells I've used are Flare and Holy in FF10 only (because they're the only ones that did more damage than a quick succession of hits from a sword).

I'd better end there before this gets any longer.


----------



## Sephiroth

What a post!    Welcome to the discussion, Lith! 

I did still enjoy playing FFXII, despite my many quibbles.  I can't say what I really want to say about the end, as it would be a huge spoiler.  

Playing VII, VIII and IX, I rushed through at low levels the first time, and beat them comprehensively the second.  When I got to playing X, I couldn't do that, since I had no PS2 at the time.  I borrowed one from my friend for a fortnight before they sold it, so I only had one crack at doing everything.  The other problem was that I didn't have a memory card.  I played just under fifty hours of the game _without getting killed _(leaving the game on all the time), before another friend lent me his memory card. 

I totally agree about the Megalixirs - they're actually useless to me, since they're too precious to even use.  

In the Sochen Cave Palace, was one of the things you beat the _Hell Wyrm?_  Then I'll be impressed.....

The Yunalesca fight was a total pain, all that zombification was a hassle to keep undoing.......

It's nice to get a different opinion of FFX-2.  And there's no doubt that the older games had a certain charm that is now lacking.


----------



## Talysia

I had mixed feelings about FFX-2, but I did complete it eventually. Getting 100% of the storyline is rather difficult, and the Bevelle extra dungeon was a nightmare most of the time, so goodness only knows how I was able to defeat Trema (it didn't even occur to me to play through three times to get three catnips - I only had one. *embarrassed blush*).  The blitzball wasn't as good in X-2, though, in my opinion. It was nice to see a female lead in an RPG, though. I've only ever seen it in two games: Otherwise the main characters are either angsty teenage boys or young men with dark pasts.

I hated the Yunlesca fight, too. Half of the time, I left two characters zombified and just healed one. I think. It's been a while since I played it. Oh, and I'll add my welcome to the discussion, too, Lith.


----------



## thaddeus6th

I hated the Megadeath attack of Yunalesca. Instant death attacks are rubbish.

Yeah, there's definitely scope for more female leads. However, the dark past male can work. Yuri Hyuga from Shadow hearts and SH: Covenant is a great lead (for example, in SH he punches an orphan in the face. Typical goody goody he is not).

The problem is that FFX-2 had all 3 characters being female and also quite weak. There's no Cecil-like sense of depth, or Cloud-type confusion. They're all happy, go-lucky (Paine's about as foreboding as a kitten playing with wool). What I'd love to see would be a female lead with a real character, not some stereotype (see Rikku or Lulu).


----------



## Overread

Just to jump back in with another rumor - but it is possible that FFXIII will be makeing a return to the PC as well as the ps3 - if so then sony will have to pull its socks up to get me back as a fan - and pay for that monster rig.


----------



## Talysia

It's been a while, but I remember Terra Branford from FFVI being quite a strong female lead.  Celes Cher was a good character, too.

Overread, I know what you mean.  If FFXIII comes out on pc as well as PS3, then I'd definitely go for the pc version.


----------



## Lenny

Overread said:


> Just to jump back in with another rumor - but it is possible that FFXIII will be makeing a return to the PC as well as the ps3 - if so then sony will have to pull its socks up to get me back as a fan - and pay for that monster rig.


 
Rumour debunked already, I'm afraid, many times. 

At the end of _EVERY_ video of *FFXIII* and *Versus XIII* that Squenix has released, it shows the PLAYSTATION 3 logo. At the end of the TGS videos they even went as far as to put "Exclusive to the PLAYSTATION 3".

If an FF does make it to the PC, then it'll have to be an MMO like *FFXI*.


----------



## Sephiroth

Interesting that there was something in Bevelle in X-2 that you had only one chance to get, because that was the case with the Knight Lance in Bevelle in the original game.  

I'm all for female leads, it just seemed to me that X-2 was all round very girly, and it seemed a bit unfair, since I wouldn't say the normal FF games are in any way geared more towards men than women (although I see your point about the lead characters, Talysia  ).  

Terra was great.  Strangely, most of my favourite playable characters have been women.  Terra, Celes, Aeris, Tifa, Yuffie, Rinoa, Quistis, Garnet, Yuna and Rikku (and Ashe, I suppose).  

But thaddeus, what you say about a female lead needing a convincing (and engaging ) back-story is also true.  From what I have seen of the clips of FFXIII, _one _of the main characters is a woman, but I don't know if she's the lead.......and we are still in the dark about storylines......

Going back to the Yunalesca fight, I did what you did, Talysia, although occasionally I had to keep de-zombifying and curing all three.


----------



## Overread

Well it was a nice dream -  -  FFVII and FFVIII were once on the PC - though I have never seen  them for sale in any computer shops - though this is the UK so chances are that it did not get shipped all the way across the ocean,


----------



## Talysia

If I remember correctly, my sister had FFVII on the pc. I remember seeing it in the shops when it first came out, too (well, FFVIII, at least).  Might be able to get a copy second hand.

Kind of disappointing about FFXIII, though. Looks like I may have to get a ps3 after all.


----------



## Sephiroth

Yes, I'm going to need one, too.  They'll have to half the price, first, though!

You're right, btw, there _was _a PC version of FFVII.


----------



## Talysia

All this talk of FFVII prompted me to get Advent Children out again.  I never realised how well the music from the game fitted in the "reminiscences of Final Fantasy VII" section.  I love that music, so it's great to hear it again.

And I know what you mean about waiting for the price to come down.  Well, come down by half.


----------



## Sephiroth

Ah yes, some of the knowing references in Advent Children are delightful!  

You know what bit I really loved?  After Cloud and (one of the clones, I forget which) fight in Aeris' Church, his mobile phone rings (or is it the other guy's?), and it plays the _battle fanfare _from VII, as if you've just won a fight!  

I liked the modified J-E-N-O-V-A, as well.  I had to point out to my friend (who _should _have known better) what it was.


----------



## Talysia

Lol, I loved the reference to the battle fanfare in Advent Children!

There's only about four pieces of music in the "Reminiscences of Final Fantasy VII section" (one of the dvd extras, with clips from the game to illustrate the story for those who haven't played it) but they definitely picked the best. And I hadn't heard that particular version of One Winged Angel, either, so a double treat. It's making me want to play the game again.

In fact, I think I might.


----------



## Sephiroth

Ah, nostalgia!  

I have been thinking about playing FFVII again for a while.  I should probably play one of the other ones again, since I've played it far too many times already, but there's always the temptation to try and recapture that magical feeling of the first play-through, once again.  

Which, unfortunately, is impossible, but we still try...

I haven't seen the dvd extras, but I'd like to see how they illustrate the game's storyline.  

Have fun if you decide to play it again!  If you're going to Midgar, my advice is to stay away from the slums, it's dangerous down there!


----------



## qwik

i fell inlove with FF7, seems like the best one out of the series that i've found amusing,...


----------



## Talysia

You're in good company, qwik.  There's quite a few with the same thought here.


----------



## Sephiroth

*casts Ultima on a Tonberry trying to invade the thread*





Welcome, qwik.  As Talysia says, most of us seem particularly to love VII.

Hmmm, well anyway, I'll jazz up this spam-post by asking a question:

Which town or place (from any of the FF games) would you most like to live in, and why?


----------



## Talysia

It's going to sound like an odd choice, but I'd go for Kalm out of FFVII.  Relatively peaceful (at least, nothing major happens there) but it's fairly close to Midgar.  Besides, it looks great in Dirge of Cerberus (even if it is under siege!)


----------



## Sephiroth

Kalm has a great feel, I can see your reasoning.  Besaid, in FFX, is quite a nice place too, although I'd like to be nearer the Macalania Woods.  Cosmo Canyon would be an interesting place to live.  So would Junon for totally different reasons.  But I think I'd have to go for Midgar, before Meteorfall.   Living on the Plate way up there in the sky really appeals to me.  It' s dirty, and noisy, and I suppose there's crime,  but there's probably a lot going on, too.  

I'd like to go on holiday to Wutai, and Icicle Inn.  Mideel would have made a nice holiday destination, too, before......

But I wouldn't want to go sightseeing to the Forgotten Capital.  Too many sad memories.......


----------



## Mithridelle

I actually like Rocket Town, it has a great atmosphere in my opinion. Cosmo Canyon would also be a favourite.


----------



## Talysia

I loved Cosmo Canyon.  The music was beautiful, and the reason for its existence in the story was spot on.


----------



## Mithridelle

But like all places in FFVII, Cosmo Canyon has a rather depressing undertone. It made me so sad when RedXIII found his father in the caves and his father started crying...


----------



## Mithridelle

OK - new question to get this thread active again. Is there any character that you identify yourself with or share any particular traits and/or qualities with? Sephy and Stife need not answer for their answers are rather predictable.

I find that, like Cloud, I have a hard time expressing what I really feel - especially to those I care about.


----------



## thaddeus6th

Tried posting this earlier...hopefully it'll work now...

Hmm. Tough question.

 Growing up, and to an extent now, I'm somewhat Squall-like in psychological distance in the relationships, few that they are. Sadly I'm not an expert gunblade wielder.


----------



## Mithridelle

Like Yuffie I get motion sickness! *Mithridelle blehs*


----------



## Talysia

That is a tough question.  Very tough.

If I'm being honest, I guess the character I identified with the most was Quistis.  She was mature for her age and fairly serious, which was how I was when I played it, years ago.  I still am, to an extent, although I enjoy things more now.  These days I identify a lot with Aeris, though.


----------



## Mithridelle

If you can identify with Aeris, then I think that you would be a very kind person, Talysia.


----------



## Talysia

Aww, thanks Mithridelle, I try to be.

I just remembered something that I share with Yuffie.  If I remember the little booklet that came with FFVII correctly, then we share the same birthday!


----------



## Mithridelle

That's OK.

I don't think I share a birthday with any of the FF cast, but I am a Leo like most of the main characters!


----------



## Sephiroth

How did I miss all this?

I need not reply, you say?




Actually, you're right.  I do identify strongly with my namesake.  

I identified with Cloud _when _he was mental, too, but more so with Vincent.  And Cid, well, he smokes and swears.....

I took a test to see which FFIX character I was.  I was Amarant.  


But I also have a frivolous, silly side, so....Wakka?  Cait Sith?



Meh.  I am a bitter, troubled soul in general.  I picked the right name.  




At Cosmo Canyon.....I found it emotional, but not sad, exactly.  It was good that Nanaki discovered the truth about his father's bravery.


----------



## Mithridelle

While mostly Sephiroth, that is an odd combo you've go there Sephy.

I found it sad, but yeah - it was good the Nanaki found out the truth. 

I can also identify with Aeris. I am willing to make sacrifices for those I care about.


----------



## Sephiroth

What can I say, I'm a complex individual!  



I am in love with Aeris.  She's the best character ever. 




I cried for over an hour when.....well, you know.  No kidding, I was inconsolable!


----------



## Mithridelle

Poor heartbroken Sephy! 

*gives bearhug of support*

I get emotional whenever I hear her theme song... I understand your pain...

*hugs again*


----------



## Sephiroth

*hugs Mithri back*


Yes, her theme song literally brings tears to my eyes, still, almost every time.  



And I get flashbacks of........_that _scene..................

After the lovely moment we shared at the Gold Saucer, too..........................

*sniff*


----------



## Mithridelle

*pats Sephy on back*

It must be hard, considering your name here at the Chrons...poor Sephy...

*starts braiding hair*


----------



## Sephiroth

Funnily enough, once I got to the end of the game, I no longer blamed 'myself'.  Poor Seph was just as much of a victim, in his own way............



But I like women braiding my hair.  

*relaxes*


----------



## Mithridelle

Yeah...ah good times...that game was the most touching of all the FF games for me...

*continues braiding as Sephiroth has such a large amount of hair*


----------



## Sephiroth

Oh, no doubt.  It's an incredible story.  



I consider the story of FFVII to be better than those of _most _of the books I've read.


----------



## Mithridelle

Yeah, I get that too. Playing as the character you get to almost know them like you would a good friend and that draws one in.

Well, I for one, would like to see Cloud crossdressing in todays graphics - that would bake my cake!


----------



## Sephiroth

Yes, all the backstories are very congruous, and well thought-out.  



LOL!  Cloud, not Seph?


----------



## Mithridelle

Hey, if it was Seph in Clouds place I would be all for it! You are so very pretty as a guy Sephy - imagine what a touch of makeup would do for you!

*finishes braiding Sephy's hair and tties off with a blck silk ribbon*


----------



## Sephiroth

Oh, how lovely!

*flaunts his new hairstyle*



And shucks................


----------



## Mithridelle

o.0 Wow...pretty Sephy...

*is locked in drooling awe before remembering wives and covertly snaps pictures and hides camera*

*whistles*


----------



## Sephiroth

Hey!  Who said you could take a picture?!



*pretends to be bothered*


----------



## Mithridelle

Yes, the keyword being 'pretends' Sephy! I know you love it.

Here have a picture to please your egotistical soul.


----------



## Sephiroth

Thank you.



*pins a picture of himself on the wall, beside other...pictures of himself*


----------



## Mithridelle

Hmm... the wall of Sephiroth - anybody besides you on there Seph?


----------



## Sephiroth

There's one old, slightly torn picture of Aeris.


----------



## Mithridelle

*bursts into tears* 

Sephy - such a sentimental soul!

*rushes up and hugs again*


----------



## Sephiroth

You're so right.  I shall never fully recover from that.....................


*consoles Mithri*


----------



## Mithridelle

It's okay, I'm all right, thank you Sephy.

*breaks away from Seph and hands him a tissue while making good use of her own*


----------



## Sephiroth

She isn't _truly _dead, you know, she exists in the Lifestream.


----------



## Mithridelle

But Alas, you only join that when you die. You have experienced this once before, I beleive.


----------



## Sephiroth

_You _only join it when you die.  




_I _can swim in it whenever I feel like, thank you very much!


----------



## Mithridelle

Yes, by all means swim about like a silly fish all you like Sephy. You'll eventually get Mako poisoning and die, you know?


----------



## Sephiroth

I am immune to Mako poisoning.  The Jenova cells........


----------



## Mithridelle

Jokes Sephy! You are perfect - us mear mortals cannot compete!


----------



## Sephiroth

I'm glad you realise it.


----------



## Mithridelle

*sigh* Will I ever get used to that ego?


----------



## Sephiroth

Better ego than emo.


----------



## Mithridelle

Don't dye your hair black Sephy - I'll worship the ego if you keep away from emo.


----------



## Sephiroth

Deal.  And hey, we've fairly corned-beefed in here, this afternoon........


----------



## Mithridelle

Do forgive me for my stupidity, but - that term - what does it mean?


----------



## Sephiroth

You mean you're not up on corned-beefing?  Chutnering?  Chocolate-biscuiting?  Ribbing?


These are all words our little cadre has coined to describe our superior quality of _spam_.  Because we spam elegantly, gracefully and with consequence....so it isn't really spam.....!

You see?


----------



## Mithridelle

Yes and thank you for this enlightenment. I'm still very much a noob in some aspects. Your help was very much appreciated Sephy.


----------



## Sephiroth

A n00b?


But Mithri.........you've been here at least two months more than me!

And you're _part _of our little cadre, you should really know that!  

But anyway...you're welcome.


----------



## Mithridelle

And look at the differance in the number of posts! Your a monster Sephy!


----------



## Sephiroth

*cough*


Uhh....yeah. 


ppd = 22.13



It's obscene........!


----------



## Mithridelle

What keeps you going Sephy?


----------



## Sephiroth

Giovanna and Leisha.


----------



## Mithridelle

And when they're not here for prolonged periods of time?


----------



## Sephiroth

I think about when I will see them again.  And such hopeful thoughts sustain me.  





The rest of you are wonderful too, of course!


----------



## Mithridelle

I should think so! Ah Seph, your a funny one!


----------



## Sephiroth

Funny _ha ha_, or funny _strange_........?


----------



## Mithridelle

A combo of both, I think, but do not despair over your oddities for I love you Sephy! 

*huggles Sephy*

In a non-love way of course.


----------



## Sephiroth

I never despair over _those_.  And actually, I don't have much despair in me atm, for a change.  

*hugs Mithri back, in a _loving _way*

Platonic love, ya know?  For my friends?


Well, I'm off.  Superb chutnering though!  



Oh and anyone else........please feel free to get the thread back on-topic if you like.  Don't mind our corned-beefing, it's just what we do.  No harm is meant.  We simply have too much to say, and not enough self-discipline.   Or, we're too good at what we do...........


Uh.........


----------



## Mithridelle

Yeah, I get you. Anyways, night Sephy!


----------



## Mithridelle

What's your favourite costume that a FF charcter has worn?

Hee hee... *points to Sephy*


----------



## Overread

Wow, this went out of control fast - I don;t think Final fantasy can fit into one single thread - we need more threads, no wait we need a final fantasy subsection in gaming - its the only way, monster threads like this scare away new people to the discussion


----------



## Mithridelle

It started off all right...then Seph and I got a little out of control with the chutneying...


----------



## Cayal

I am a HUGE final fantasy fan.

Played VII, VIII, IX, X, X-II (kinda), and XII.

Refused to play XI because I refuse to pay to play a game I already spent $100 buying.

XII and VII are by far my favourites.

VII was the first PSX game I ever played, it was an amazing experience.
And XII was utter brilliance in my mind. I loved everything about it.

I also loved the movie Advent Children and I really wish they would remake VII for the PS3.


----------



## Mithridelle

FFVII in todays graphics! *drools a puddle onto floor*


----------



## Overread

*Walks in, slips* Ouch!

dear powers that be no, don't let them start the FFVII remake subject - it will go on forever.
must think of new subject . . . . . 

what did you people think of the battle system change in FFXII?
Personally I did like the free roaming system done better than it was in FFX - where most of the time you could not avoid the monsters anyway. It also allows you to rush through easy fights without having to do much, if anything - easy leveling - though I do find the system a challenge at in the hard boss battles, where I often prefer to take more direct control


----------



## Sephiroth

Woo!  We're back on topic, are we?!

Jaire, I agree about the MMORPGs (all of them, not just FFXI).  I've no desire to pay to play something I already paid for in the store.  

You would really enjoy VI, I think.  It's the first completely 'epic' one, and the first one to meld magic and technology in the storyline.  


So, we're not to talk about remaking VII again?! 



In some ways I'd love to _see _it.  But it would also be a blasphemy, I think.  


Overread, I liked the battle system in XII.  The free-roaming aspect of it was great, and when they've ironed out the bugs it'll definitely be the way forward, I think.  But I still consider FFX to be the best game in pure battle terms.  The system in X was incredibly smooth, and the Monster Arena and Dark Aeon fights were phenomenal.  

The biggest bosses in FFXII (Hell Wyrm; Yiazmat) were incredibly annoying.....they were too easy for most of their ridiculously high HP.....and then when they went into critical health, they went insane.  The balance was all wrong there, and I found those fights really boring.  

Some great fights. but also some really annoying, pointless things.  The move 'Fearga' should NOT have been in the game.  It isn't fair, it's just nonsense, and highly irritating.  The spell 'Reverse' I also found incredibly irritating.  And I have a major problem with not being able to cast Ultima...........

And I felt that not having break limits (HP and damage), after having them in X, was a step backwards.  And the License Grid was far too small, I was finished it halfway through.  

In FFXII, there was too much randomness and not enough call for skill, overall.  


And I agree with what you say.  You couldn't fight the big optional bosses with your Gambits on (with one or two exceptions where something could be worked out for a couple of characters while you fought on with just one).


----------



## Overread

Personally I prefer the design of the license grid over the sphere grid, which I thought was a good idea, but very hard to see where you were going, and unless you used the very few jumping orbs, your characters were mostly on a set path anyway. So on FFXII they got those aspects right, but the grid, as you say, is too small, considering that you always get a point no matter what you kill (I think) its easy to rank up those points.


----------



## Sephiroth

I would agree with you there, it was easier to figure out (although _much _less pretty, the Sphere Grid was beautiful!).  

And yeah, they gave away LP far too easily.  

OR, alternatively, they should've had an extra section of the board open up when you got to a certain stage (I thought it would, there was so much empty space on the screen!).  One with Ultima on it.  


I should say, though, I thoroughly enjoyed the battle aspect of XII.  

But personally, I just don't rate it as highly as X, despite the coolness of free-roaming.  

But I am the Penance-Killer.


----------



## Talysia

I must admit, I didn't get on as well with the sphere/license grids - probably because I'm more used to the customization and levelling up quirks on other RPGs, but I did like the free roaming aspect.  I've seen it in a few other games, but it hasn't been handled quite as well as in FFXII.


----------



## Overread

The best free roaming I have played was Shadow of the Colosus, mainly because I actually felt like I was traversive vast distances, most RPGs have free roaming areas, but they never feel large enough - it takes 5 mins walking to get from one town to the next


----------



## Sephiroth

That game was cool!  Very inventive.......


And I agree.  I thought the worlds in both FFX and XII felt too small.  


The World Maps used to do wonders for that feeling.


----------



## Overread

XII was not too bad, but X was way too small - the linear gameplay lead to that


----------



## Lith

The sphere grid was beautiful, I'll give you that.  But it was VERY annoying to navigate.  I liked the license grid and felt it had about the right difficulty.  And since I spent a fair bit of time butchering skeletons in Lhusu mines, for once I had enough money to actually buy nice stuff.

Ten had a nice battle system; the CTB is a lot better than the ATB, IMO, but 12's is the best system so far.  You don't need many gambits, if they're the right ones.  I had four gambits on for the majority of the game, upping it to like five for the last two or three bosses.  

You killed Penance?  Wow...

Overread- Shadow of the Colossus looks pretty cool (my brother has it), but I get bored quickly with vast empty areas.  Though it IS kind of silly to have towns so close together in games.  Twelve felt about right for me.

I DON'T miss the world map.  It made the worlds feel small.  (LOL funny how people perceive things differently, isn't it?)

(Sorry I haven't been more involved in conversation... real life and all that.)


----------



## Overread

"real life and all that"

Could you please explain what this real life thing is - I certainly have never encountered it - it is one of those next gen console games by chance?

What I liked about shadow (diverging thread I know) was that it removed the grunt battling and just focused on the bosses, which what most RPGs end up with in the end, the grunts being so weak after hours of leveling that they can be ignored.


----------



## Lith

Real Life is the oldest game console of them all.  And after so many years and buggy system upgrades, it's evolved into the worst sort of monster boss imaginable- it's tedious and eats up all your free time!  If you ever run into it, RUN AWAY.  There is literally no beating this boss.  It's HP is in the quadrijillions and its immune to everything.

Colussus is definitely its own sort of game, but unfortunately it's not _my_ sort.  I actually prefer the old adventure games, except no one makes them anymore.  RPGs can have too many battles; unfortunately the stuff in between the battles isn't that creative most of the time.


----------



## Overread

Unfortunatly for us all those golden days have moved further away;
BioWare: Press Kit and Releases

Now to move us back on track - who's waiting for FF tactics on the DS?


----------



## McMurphy

Overread said:


> XII was not too bad, but X was way too small - the linear gameplay lead to that



I didn't find Final Fantasy XII as a marvel, either.  For myself, it felt very dry and, unlike some of the prior installments of the franchise, I never really connected with the characters or the story.

XII felt as if SquareEnix was attempting too often to appease the World of Warcraft and other online role playing game fans.


----------



## Sephiroth

I totally agree with you, McMurphy.  I found the story to be very poor, undoubtedly the worst aspect of the game.  And we never really got to know the characters.  

Overread, what you say about the linear nature of X is a fair point.  But, while I appreciate being given free reign, I think FFXII went too far the other way.  You were able to spend ages roaming, fighting and doing mark hunts, even relatively early in the game.  It beefed up the gameplay hours, sure, but it contributed to the lack of story, and the feeling I had at the end, which was.....w_here's the final quarter of this story gone?_

Lith, you're right.  I haven't beaten Real Life, and I'm running out of Phoenix Down.  

But yeah, I smashed Penance...at the third attempt.  That thing is _tough_.  It's the most exhilarating fight ever, though......

It's funny how we see things differently.  I always felt that the world map made the world feel bigger, since it took you away from 'street level' and showed you the continental configuration of the planet.  

Skull Defenders in the Lhusu Mines, they just keep coming.......

Only better area is Henne, with the Flans or (if you're hard enough) Abysteels..........




Hopefully my friend, who has a DS, will get _Tactics_, and then I can have a look.


----------



## Lenny

If I could comment on a few points?

---

I loved the Sphere Grid!  I don't know why, seeing as the first time I played *FFX *I went around it backwards for half a game, and then started again, but I did like it. 

And as for battle systems - I'm interested to see what *FFXIII* will bring. Apparently it's going to be somewhat like *FFXII*, where you can see monsters, but it's also going to be in real time. And from what the videos of FFXIII show, you might be able to move around within the battle.

And in *FF Versus XIII*? Now that's a system I'm excited in seeing. Since Nomura is involved, we've got a nice system somewhat like a cross between the *Kingdom Hearts* and *FFVII: Dirge of Cerberus* systems, which can take place inside and outside, and can move between the two, _SEAMLESSLY_. In fact, the whole world is rumoured to be seamless - as in no loading screens.


----------



## Overread

True lenny, I have also heard that weapons in FFXII will be transforming between different states during battle - a interesting twist, I wonder if gunblades will be back?


----------



## Sephiroth

In the clip, didn't Shiva turn into a bike, or something?



I can't wait for both of them.  But particularly _Versus_, by the look and sound of it.


----------



## Mithridelle

You would be happy with _Versus_ Sephy - after all - you are one of its stars!


----------



## Sephiroth

What game is this?  I know I feature in _Crisis Core_ for the PSP, but....the Versus I mean here is _Versus XIII_, for the PS3.  Is there another _Versus _game?


----------



## Mithridelle

Hmm, perhaps Mithridelle is just confused, yes Mithridelle is just confused. Mithridelle apologises for her comment.


----------



## Sephiroth

Please, no apology is necessary!


----------



## Mithridelle

So kind you are Sephy!

*Mithridelle walks over to Seph and looks up at him*

What is in your pockets Sephy?


----------



## Sephiroth

I will show you over in Sal, lest we chutner this place up too badly.  



*vanishes*


----------



## Lenny

Sephiroth said:


> In the clip, didn't Shiva turn into a bike, or something?


 
Yep. In fact, in FFXIII, Shiva is a "sister pair" - there are two parts to her, who together turn into the bike.

I'm trying to find a good picture.

Apparently all summons in FFXIII will do similar things (i.e., transform into objects).

EDIT: Final Fantasy XIII Screens for PS3 at GameSpot


----------



## Overread

I wonder if Quetzocoalt (the big lightning bird from FFVIII) will make a reappearance?


----------



## Lenny

So far, Shiva is the only confirmed summon. However, in the TGS trailer it shows Ifrit and Bahamut as enemies on Pulse (the 'wild' world - the civilised world, Cocoon, floats above it), which makes one wonder - was Shiva also an enemy, but was tamed by Mr. 33cm to become a summon?

Mr. 33cm, by the way, is the second confirmed character after Lightning - all we know about him is that he is the one who rides Shiva, and his shoe size - 33cm.

*Lightning *(main character)

http://www.finalfantasy13.org/images/news_images/lightning02-15-2007.jpg

*Mr. 33cm *(not the best of quality, as its a scan from a magazine)

http://www.jeux-france.com/Webmasters/Images/50861420070226_141819_0_big.jpg

---

It might just be strangeness on my part, but does it look to anyone else as if what Lightning is holding has a hammer, such as those found on the back of old-age pistols? And we do know that she fights with a blade...

http://www.finalfantasy13.org/media/artwork/ffxiii04.jpg

Might just be my eyes, though...


----------



## Cayal

Lightning is a dreadful name for a character in my opinion. As is Mr 33cm, I hope that isn't some sort of innuendo.

Also not a fan of a chick as the main character.


----------



## Lenny

It's not the worst of names for a character. Plus, it's a codename chosen by her:



> She uses the codename "Lightning" to hide her true identity, though she does not know it herself.


 
Final Fantasy XIII - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And just another thing about her weapon:



> Her weapon, which can be shifted between a sword mode and a firearm mode at will, bears many similarities to _Final Fantasy VIII'_s gunblade.


 
---

Mr. 33cm was named "Mr. 33cm" by Tetsuya Nomura, simply because it's his shoe size, and Nomura doesn't want to release his real name yet. I reckon he won't at all, and we'll find it out in the actual game.

---

The Wikipedia article mentions a second female character with pink hair and weilding, who seems to be an ally of Lightning. She was seen in the TGS '07 trailer, but has not been named.


----------



## Overread

I have no problem with a female lead, if done right, FFX-2 was wrong

and "Yay Gunblade!"  - I'll stop now


----------



## Talysia

Looks very interesting, and looking forward to seeing more. It'd be great to possibly see the old Gunblade back, too!


----------



## Sephiroth

Lenny, those pics are great, cheers!  

Two Shivas!  How bizarre!  Very cool, though......

And that cross-shaped weapon in picture two certainly looks like some kind of gunblade....she's holding it like a gun.  


I have no problem with a female lead either.  There's no reason why it should have to be a man all the time.  

As long as it's not a girly game like X-2, with all that dress-changing.  Which I'm sure it isn't.  


Overread, you don't half like that GF!   

I'd be less surprised if the lightning summon was Ramuh, again.  But you never know!



Yay gunblade...pity about the miserable so-and-so who wielded it last time!




Something in the look of FFVIII does remind me of Esthar, in VIII.


----------



## Overread

true - I think it was because it wound up being the most powerful one I had for a long while - really messed me up when I have to fight the character who regenerated when hit by lightning


----------



## Sephiroth

It was certainly one of the most beautiful to watch.  I liked it for that, too, and used it a lot in the early-to-mid stages.


----------



## Overread

True - new topic - your favorite summon animation;

well I already mentioned the lightning bird from FFVIII
others; to simpligy lets just say FFX summons in general stand out.


----------



## Sephiroth

Hmm, well, they benefit from having the PS2 graphics, of course.  And they're certainly far superior to the useless Espers from XII.  But Bahamut doesn't look quite right.  For me, he looks too 'humanoid'.  

I usually like Odin and Bahamut, wherever they appear.  Shiva's _Diamond Dust _is always a favourite.  I liked the tetra elemental one in VII, Kjata.  

If we're allowed to count FMV sequences, the fight between Bahamut and Alexander in IX is incredible.  


Least favourite animation:  Knights of Round, because you have to go and make a cup of tea every time you cast it.


----------



## Mithridelle

Carbuncle from FFVIII was so cute! Bahamut will always be a favourite, whatever game he is in - I  loved Bahamut Zero from FFVII.


----------



## Creabots

I'm playing FFXII right now. I personally don't care for the storyline in this game. IMO, the Final Fantasy games on the PS1 were the best. Yes, I have FFIII on the DS, and I haven't finished FFVIII. I've also played FFXI, though I didn't like it very much.


----------



## thaddeus6th

Ever played FFIV? I thought that had a damn good storyline. 

Favourite summons....Ifrit from VII. Ah, 'twas my first every FF, in days of yore when I still spent 40 hours a week surrounded by schoolgirls in uniforms that tended to be too tight.


----------



## Talysia

Favourite summon monster?  That's an easy one (and it's too early to remember whether I've answered that one or not):  Bahamut (any incarnation, except FFX) and Odin.  I liked Knights of the Round, despite the ridiculous time it took to finish.


----------



## Mithridelle

I have always loved Shiva and I liked Diablos of the magic teapot in FFVIII.


----------



## Cayal

Diablos was very cool looking.


I haven't read the entire thread but has there been a vote on best to worst list of Final Fantasy games?


----------



## Lenny

I don't think there's been one in this thread, but it's pretty much given that there'll be an old thread somewhere harping on about best and worst.

EDIT: I'm actually mildly surprised - I've only found two! ! I was predicting to find at least two million. 

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/2465-final-fantasy-favorite.html - 2004
http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/6575-final-fantasy-which-one.html - 2005


----------



## Talysia

There were only two Final Fantasy threads before this one?  I'm very surprised.


----------



## Lenny

Well, only two about favourite game. I'm sure I passed a few other Final Fantasy threads whilst I was digging - mostly about FFVII or FFX. Though there might have been a couple about FFXII.


----------



## Overread

That sounds better.
I was wondering, with final fantasy being such a large topic, and with the certancy that there will always be members wanting to talk about it; would it not be possilbe to convince the mods to open a sub category in games for FF. I say this as this monster of a thread, whilst open to all, is rather a maze.


----------



## Sephiroth

I like the idea, Overread.  But who am I?  Just a glorified n00b with a chutnering problem!

With the author subforums, there needs to be at least six _active _threads discussing someone's work before they get one.  I'm not sure whether what we've got here so far would be enough to convince.  Of course, in a subforum, we could have threads to discuss each game, etc...so that's more than six to begin with....plus more  general threads like this one.  

In the meantime, it's inevitable that things will be revisited in this thread that have already been talked about.  I, for one, don't have a problem with that.  We can't really expect every newcomer to read the entire thread before they post.  As you say, it's a maze.  



Diablos was very cool, I can't believe I forgot him.  

thaddeus, I've never played IV, no.  I would like to.  



Of the games I have played...best to worst:

FFVII
FFVI
FFX
FFIX
FFVIII
FFXII


----------



## Talysia

Best to worst, eh?

FFVII
FFVIII
FFVI
FFV
FFIV
FFIX
FFXII
FFX
FFX-2

I won't count Dirge of Cerberus in there, but it would be fairly high up on the list.


----------



## Lenny

And of the FF games I've played, best to worst:

FFX
FFX-2

 

I'll be able to add FFXIII and Versus XIII to that list in a year or two.


----------



## Sephiroth

Well, if that's what you think, Talysia, I'm definitely going to have to get a hold of _Dirge _soon.  



Since we're allowed to repeat things, can I mention for about the eighth time how excited I am about _Versus XIII_, now?


----------



## Commonmind

This is a wildly popular thread so rather than reading it in its entirety I'll simply answer a few of the questions Seph posed. 

I've been playing Final Fantasy since its inception. I played all of the NES and SNES titles, imports included, the entire PS collection (as well as a few of the Japanese international versions) and, of course, all of the PS2 games. I've played a few of the hand-held remakes, including Dawn of Souls and FFVI for the GBA and the more recent FFIII for the DS. 

I'm definitely a big fan. My favorite in the series is still FFVI, as it was the first Final Fantasy title I played that really dragged me into the world. I loved the characters, the twists and turns, and the way the game presented new elements to the player. While I enjoyed the story (despite a few if the idiosyncrasies in the translation) I more enjoyed how epic and ambitious the plot had been at the time. The Opera scene still requires a box of tissue within arms reach and finding out a certain someone is...a certain someone...still makes me giggle like a precocious schoolgirl.

FFVII falls in as a close second, though I don't count it as a favorite for many of the reasons other gamers do. While I thought the story was presented well, and the pace of the game was flawless, I wasn't a big fan of the characters and thought (don't use a limit break on me Seph) that the villains were simply too flat and somewhat cliche. I once asked a few friends why they admired Sephiroth so much, and quite honestly, the only valid answer they could give me was that he walked through fire and had a really, really big sword. I enjoyed VII because of its battle and materia systems; it's still the biggest reason why I continually go back to the game.

FFVIII was a wash. FIX was fantastic, and I loved the ending, despite the disjointed plotting and how easy it was to become ridiculously overpowered well before reaching the end of the game. FFX's battle system is one of my favorites, though I missed the old world map and the feeling of exploration inherent in earlier titles. FFX-2 was a blur that I'd rather forget.

FFXII was fantastic, in so much that it reinvented the franchise and presented a totally new way of playing that was still strangely familiar. I loved feeling like I could just walk around and explore (albeit somewhat constricting and linear) and I enjoyed the addictive and time consuming grind sessions I had with the game; getting rare items, building combos and the like.

Spirits Within was a gorgeous farce, and Advent Children, while definitely entertaining, felt a little too much like an attempt at quelling fans that have wanted a true sequel since the original's release.

I'm anticipating FFXIII and all its iterations and I'm looking forward to seeing what the PS3 will allow the developers to bring to the series.  One of the reasons I love Square-Enix is attention to detail and their high production values. I don't think any of us would've been as wowed as we had been had we not dropped our jaws during the series' more awe-inspiring visual moments.


----------



## Sephiroth

Great post, Commonmind!  Welcome to the discussion.  


So...I'm not to use the Super Nova?  You're not about to sit through five minutes of planet-smashing video sequence?

That's no fun!!!  

But if everyone saw everything the same way, the world would be pretty boring.  


I know a lot of people like Sephiroth because he's 'cool'.  The flashback when you get to Kalm, when you see him fight a dragon and take off over 4000, reinforces the idea of him as the ultimate SOLDIER.  But the reason I like him is because of his tragic story.  He is a fallen hero, and a victim, both of the Shin-Ra researchers and the Jenova entity, and his subsequent rage and nihilism is a result of this.  I find him a more three-dimensional and rounded character than Kefka, for example.  Where Scarlet, Heidegger and Hojo are concerned (but not so much Rufus), you certainly have a point.  Don't tell me you didn't like the Turks, though?


What was your opinion of the plot in FFXII?


----------



## Commonmind

If anyone says a word against the turks I'll bring my Louisville out of retirement. I liked FFXII's plot quite a bit, though I think SE found it difficult to try and tell a larger story while still keeping to their normal "static" cast format. I couldn't help but feel like I wanted to change points of view throughout the game, and there were times I felt a sense of urgency, as if the plot was going on without me because the characters were seemingly unimportant in the scheme of things (which might have been intentional, we'll never know).


----------



## Mithridelle

Welcome to the thread, Commonmind - I hope that you enjoy it here!

Sephy - my tragic villan! *pats Sephy on head*


----------



## Commonmind

Why thank you, Mith


----------



## Cayal

My ratings.

1. Final Fantasy VII and XII - I really loved both of them and I cannot put one above the other.

2. Final Fantasy IX - Is it wrong that I loved Garnett?

3. Final Fantasy VIII - I don't think it was as bad as some make it out to be. I thought it was quite excellent.

4. Final Fantasy X - meh.

5. Final Fantasy X-2 - urgh.

I loved Advent Children. I took it on face value and didn't look too much into it. Seeing Cloud and Sephiroth on the big screen was worth it. Amazing CGI too.

Spirits Within wasn't too bad. Shouldn't have been a Final Fantasy movie, amazing graphically.


----------



## Overread

Ok asking me to put FF in order of prefrence is too hard to do - heck give me maths rather than that, at least then I might be able to scribble something down. So lets just say is all at the top barring FFX-2 - Charlie's Angles edition (as I call it)


----------



## Mithridelle

I have yet to find a person who favours FFX-2 above all of the other FF games. It had beautiful music though. Very touching.


----------



## Overread

I liked the fighting system, and the music - even the cinematics were up to class - but the story was so washed out and weak, plus the characters got ruined - guns? ok, but Yuna using guns -- no, just NO! (even though it looks good)


----------



## Mithridelle

The fact that it was mission based and that you didn't get to explore the world like you did in the previous game was what annoyed me the most. THis also made the game seem allot shorter.


----------



## Talysia

I didn't like the mission based aspect of the game, either.  It felt too linear and rigid - I like the exploration and freedom to move in an RPG - and it did seem to make the game shorter for me.  The extra Bevelle dungeons gave it a little more difficulty, but not enough to hold my interest past one or two playthroughs, sadly.


----------



## Mithridelle

Yes, it is not a game that I will return to in the near future, I think.


----------



## Mithridelle

Sooo.... what is your favourite part/chapter/scene out of any of the games? 

Going back to FFVII, I would have to say that I really liked the part on the Airship were Cloud tells everyone that he wasn't a first class soldier, that he wasn't all that he had beleived he was. That scene always made me feel a little happier somehow. I also likes the whole City of the Ancients part... 'twas depressing though...


----------



## Talysia

I'd have to agree with that - I liked that scene on the Highwind. I still get a chuckle from the Wall Market series of events, and I loved the Temple of the Ancients/City of the Ancients thing, too. My favourite has to be Cloud rediscovering his true self after the events at Mideel and in the lifestream, though.

Actually, having recently seen FFVII - Last Order, it made me like the flashback to Cloud's escape with Zack a lot more, too.


----------



## Mithridelle

I could say without a doubt that there is no scene in FFVII that I dislike. The outcome of the Cloud and Zack escape always left me close to tears...

I also liked the dating scene at the Gold Saucer. I remember that I got Cloud to go out with Barret once!


----------



## Talysia

Lol - I never saw that scene!  It was always Aeris or Tifa.  I wonder what you have to do to get Barret on the Gold Saucer date.

Same here - I don't think there's a scene from the entire game I dislike, either.


----------



## Mithridelle

From the very start you have a tally system with each character. Basically you have to do everything ncie and good to Barret and keep on dissing Tifa and Aeris. It really takes to long though and I could never be bothered to do it again. I usually take Aeris out on the date because I want her to have her moments before the City of the Ancients....

You ca also go out with Yuffie, I think.


----------



## Talysia

Yuffie, too?  That would be interesting - especially with the Gold Saucer play.  That was funny!


----------



## Mithridelle

I think that Barret doesn't let Cloud go to the play - he's too manly for that stuff!


----------



## Talysia

Oh, that sounds so funny!  Come to think of it, the gondola scene (I can't remember what it was called, but the tour around Gold Saucer) would have been pretty interesting with Barret, too.

I suppose it's just as well that you couldn't get to invite Cid or Vincent!


----------



## Mithridelle

I think that Cid would outright refuse and while Vincent would go with Cloud, there wouldn't really be much of a conversation with thoses two.

Barret talks about Marlene mostly in the gondola.


----------



## Cayal

Final Fantasy XIII Versus (or whatver the hell it is called) is exclusive to PS3.

IGN: Nomura Talks FFXIII


----------



## Lenny

*FF Versus XIII *is the title.

The exclusivity of both *FFXIII *and *Versus XIII *have never been in doubt - from the moment they were announced, they have been PS3 exclusives, contrary to rumours by jealous 360 owners, and those who want to spread FUD.

It's the same story with *Metal Gear Solid 4*.


----------



## Overread

Well I am mildly annoyed.
I can't find a single hi-res image or decent fan art of Quetzecotl (SP) from FF8
anyone know of any?

Also - Lenny - FF13 - the reason to get a PS3, I might even move to get MGS4 - it looks interesting (now all we need is for sony to lower the price to a sensible number)


----------



## HoopyFrood

Just checked on Google images (ah, the wonders of google) and there's quite a few (don't know if there are any that you're looking for, though, they're not great resolution) if you search "Quezacotl"


----------



## Overread

hehe I thought there were too few - wrong spelling on my part - thanks Hoopy


----------



## Lenny

Here are various drawings of what looks like characters from each Final Fantasy.

Squaresoft Art

Quezacotl is the last in the FF8 list.

---



> Also - Lenny - FF13 - the reason to get a PS3, I might even move to get MGS4 - it looks interesting (now all we need is for sony to lower the price to a sensible number)


 
Damn straight they're good reasons to get a PS3. 

With the Christmas deals particularly, 40gb PS3's (without the PS2 backwards compatibility) are going for less than an Xbox 360 Premium, let alone the Elite.


----------



## Commonmind

I'm still a firm believer that the best reason to purchase a PS3 is that it is a PS3. This is a blanket statement, as it covers all the bases; i.e. the best reason to get a PS3 is for MGS4, FFXIII and God of War III. You really can't go wrong. It's still the most affordable Blu-ray player on the market, promises a healthy dose of blockbuster exclusives and, as far as I'm concerned, has more potential than any other current gen console. 

The 360 has its legs already, we've seen what it's capable of. The Wii reached its potential with the very first game most of us popped in after purchasing it (in other words, the method of control, that is the gimmick of the system, is the largest draw while being, ironically, the most static part of the platform -- it cannot be upgraded, built upon or changed in any way). The PS3 hasn't cracked its shell just yet, and when it does (and I hope that it will soon -- no offense Uncharted and Ratchet) I think gamers everywhere will issue a simultaneous, "Oh, so that's what it's all about."


----------



## Lenny

If it doesn't happen next year, then I don't know when it will - games like Killzone 2, MSG4, hopefully one or both of the FFXIII's... heck, I'm going to throw LittleBigPlanet into that list, too.

---

Back to FFXIII - there will be new trailers for both FFXIII and Versus XIII shown in Squenix's infamous Closed Theatre at Jump Festa (22nd/23rd December). Chances are, something will be leaked, and if not, then at least we'll have more written info.


----------



## Commonmind

I'm usually more optimistic about getting my hands on new Famitsu scans (which will probably come later next year) than actual leaked footage, as the last several showings they've had have yielded little to no new videos. 

Square really has to get off this current model it's on. They've always been a bit tight-lipped about certain projects they've been working on, but it's getting progressively worse. I remember seeing the footage of a dark-haired Tidus running around an open plain several days before getting a copy of FF IX in my hands and seeing all sorts of FFXI teasers on the Playonline site well before the game's official unveiling (I'm sure some of you remember the concept footage using FF8's in-game engine and the two teenagers playing from home, the guy in the arcade who's called in to save the day and the Japanese schoolgirl making a new online friend). All of these teasers got me excited about new titles because they became somewhat tangible and attainable. Now it seems very little information gets put out there before a game's release month.


----------



## Lenny

I don't know.

Before the release of KH2, we seemed to have more than enough info for the best part of two years.

I do know that we won't get much info on Versus XIII for a while, though - Nomura has said that the Versus XIII team will be keeping silent until FFXIII is much further on in development.


----------



## Commonmind

Contradictory to what I just said above, I kind of like the mystery behind Versus XIII - even though we don't know much about the main XIII title itself, we can assume some similarities to other games in the franchise. For Versus we have no idea how the battle system is going to work or how the other mechanics are going to function and it almost gives me the same sense of wonder I got when reading the first FF III (VI) write-ups in EGM several moons ago.

Lenny, you're making me feel old here, you were about 3 or 4 years old when I was reading those write-ups, lol


----------



## Lenny

It's your own fault for actually being that old. 

From what's been said about Versus XIII, the battle system is going to real time, somewhat like that in Kingdom Hearts, drawing inspiration from the one in FFVII: Dirge of Cerberus, and is going to take pace inside and outside, with seamless transitions between the two.

Trust Nomura to go and change the tried and tested formula.


----------



## Commonmind

Yeah, I've heard as much as well. Still, the game feels like a huge mystery (but I'm glad for it, like I said).

As for Nomura, I'm not too concerned with what he'll give us. Kingdom Hearts is one of my favorite franchises. (Though if I had my way I'd erase the "The Bouncer" characters from existence, no offense to Nomura-san.)


----------



## Lith

FFvs13 isn't looking interesting (granted though that we've seen not much of it).  I wish Square would get away from the 15-yr-old pretty boys.  I know their profiles list their ages as older, but they still look 15 at most.  They had a good thing going with Cloud and Kadaj in the early stages of Advent Children, and when they revised their look, they were younger and much prettier.  

Is it so painful to have a hero (or for that matter, a heroine) that's old enough to buy alcohol?  

As for the rest of the game, I've got preliminary forebodings that it'll be little more than an arcade fighter with previous FF characters.


----------



## Cayal

Lith said:


> Is it so painful to have a hero (or for that matter, a heroine) that's old enough to buy alcohol?



Because you can buy alcohol in a game? What's it matter?


----------



## Sephiroth

Hmm, I'm not sure if I like this intimation of KoH-style battles in FF.


Well actually, I _am _sure.  I'm dead against it.  We don't need that.  We _like _the way the battles go in FF games, it's part of the reason we buy them..........

KoH is a great game, but it's....different. 


I worry about the way things are going too.  For me, XII was a big let down overall.


----------



## Commonmind

XII was a big letdown for a lot of folks, but -- unlike yourself Seph -- it's one of the reasons I'm less worried for the well-being of the franchise. The series had grown stagnant, and while the FF formula is as tried-and-true as they come, the constant recycling of gameplay mechanics was becoming tiresome. At the very least the direction they took with FFXII was a sort of admission by SE that they understood they needed to look at the franchise as a whole and consider how to move it forward; as it was, they were running in place.

As for the art style, it is what it is and it's always been that way. The first target audience for any SE game is still going to be Japan, and that's the style which their particular culture desires. I'm not too concerned with a particular character's outward appearance as I understand and accept that fact. What I do dislike is poor localization - something most of SE's titles have suffered from. I want a story that's cohesive, easy to understand and follow, and not riddled with cheap thrills and gimmicky plot twists or big gaping holes due to poor translation. FFXII (at the very least) attempted to attain a level of maturity not seen in previous FF's and it shows. The localization work was some of the best in previous years - unfortunately the drastic thematic change left too many long-time fans reeling. Quite a few of them simply couldn't get past the way the game was presented and therefore never really took time to appreciate the new storytelling approach.

As for Versus, it's not going to be a traditional FF title, that much is sure. But had Kingdom Hearts been called "Final Fantasy: The Disney Adventures," (and a Final Fantasy title was considered for the work in the early stages) I'm sure it would've still received the accolades it deserved. Just because Versus carries the FF moniker but doesn't necessarily conform to the gameplay paradigms, let's not right it off.


----------



## Sephiroth

Oh hey, I have to say, gameplay mechanics is not what let _me _down.  The limited world design, lack of character depth and complete absence of story (IMO) were my main concerns.  I liked the battle system, despite one or two minor quibbles.  And I would like to see them develop that system further, rather than losing all our menus and commands entirely.  

I really didn't see a new storytelling approach, though.  I only saw the veneer of a story painted over what was undoubtedly a step forward in gameplay.  For me, this story never got off the ground, and I never got to know who any of the characters really were.  Even by the end, I didn't care about them OR what was going to happen.  And while the game itself could be played for quite some time due to all the side-quests, it feels like if you just take the story itself, it's over too quickly.  I completed the game by accident!  I couldn't believe that I was at the end, it felt like I'd only done 3/4 of the plot.  And where was the end dungeon?  You get to that last place, and you don't even have to 'do' anything.  Except for defeat Vayne, which takes all of two seconds. 

Interesting how you and I had such different experiences playing the same game.  

One of my biggest problems, perhaps, was that the gaming shows and magazines were making out like XII was almost perfect, and saying that it would 'restore the faith of jaded old FF fans'.  It didn't do that for me at all!


I _am _excited by Versus, however, despite what I've said.  More so than about XIII, which I get the feeling might be 'more of the same' when it comes down to it.  I _do _want them to innovate.  But I don't want to lose the things that made me enjoy these games in the first place.


----------



## Commonmind

Note that I used the word "attempted." I personally don't feel they achieved what I believe they were going after, but I can appreciate the effort they put into it - and this is part of that new storytelling approach I was speaking of. What I mean by that is they were less reliant on cheap plot devices to manifest drama. In previous FF titles there always seemed to be a new twist in the story just when there was a lull in the overarching one - as happens to some authors who write themselves into a corner, they often use the metaphoric "hail-mary" to get themselves out of it without retooling the work or coming up with a believable, less "cheap" resolution. Another aspect of this new story-telling approach would be that they tried telling a larger story, a conflict between several regions of the world rather than between a single protagonist and antagonist.

And you saw exactly where they failed in that case. You felt you had reached the end of the game by accident, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that they fell back on that hero vs. ultra-powerful villain device. There was no real resolution to the ongoing plot and I think SE couldn't figure out how to tie all the strings together and deliver an end that was synonymous with the story it had been building up until that point. I would've been more pleased had they left out the cliche multi-form boss battle and had the characters interact with a larger conflict in a non-traditional way. It may not have been as immediately satisfying as the normal end-of-game boss battle, but in the scheme of things it might have inspired a feeling of resolution, thereby giving a sense of lasting satisfaction that outweighs the former one.

Where the characters are concerned, I had my favorites, but they definitely weren't as memorable as some previous characters in the franchise. Again, I attribute this to SE trying to tell a story with more scope; they paid too much attention to exterior conflict and didn't build upon the characters enough to give them any solidity. They were mere observers, point of view devices used to deliver the story - they were not main characters. And you could tell there were times where SE was struggling with the balance of old and new. There were times they fell back on their old formula and many times where they neglected it altogether and paid little attention to the characters.

I really don't think we had that different of an experience. I believe we were both looking at the same painting, but appreciating it in different ways. I saw what the artist was striving for and found it inspiring, despite the quality of the completed work; you felt the image lacked a certain polish inherent in the artist's other works. Either way, we both agree it wasn't as good as it could've been.


----------



## Sephiroth

Very well put, actually.  

I started out by being excited about differences I perceived in the plot style, and one of the things I liked was the 'maturity' you speak of, and the attempt to portray a more nuanced, 'real' world.  And I think you're right to say that they lost track of this attempt, and fell back on their old formula a bit (in the final third of the story especially, the whole Giruvegan episode seemed a bit incongruous when compared to what had come before - and even then, they didn't have the courage of their convictions to take the story on from there and make it _truly _a hero vs. ultra-powerful villain ending instead.  It fell somewhere in-between).  

I tend to be hypercritical of SE, because I expect too much.  I'm always desperate for an experience that matches the one I had playing VII, and so far I haven't had it (X came closest, but again, fell away at the end, although I was still satisfied overall).  

I think you're right that, having made the bold decision to go with this new approach to storylining, they should have thought outside the box a little more when contriving a resolution.  They might have amazed us with their audacity and innovation.  Instead, they left _me _feeling somewhat hollow about the whole thing. 

Characterwise...Balthier had a bit of life to him, and Fran was quite interesting, and well voiced, but I still would have liked a bit more.  The rest...I found nondescript.  By the end, I felt I still didn't know Vaan at all, yet I'd been playing as him the whole time.  I will admit that SE deserves credit for _attempting _a new approach, but stories, even large-scale ones on an epic scale, rely upon characterisation.  I hope they have put a bit more effort into that side of XIII and Versus.  

But yes, you're right.  We don't see it so differently after all.


----------



## Commonmind

Coincidentally, Balthier and Fran were my two favorites as well. 

Another commonality we share is our opinion of SE. I've the same exact mentality as you do. I grew up playing Sqaresoft titles and I'm extremely critical of the products they put out. Each time I pick up a new SE title I do so with conflicting feelings of anticipation and skepticism.

Back to FFXIII, we'll have to wait and see. There's always been a pattern with the franchise, at least beyond the 16-bit era, where the first game on a new platform is always the most ambitious and therefore the most satisfying. FF VII was, arguably, the most satisfying FF experience on the Playstation; X was, _undoubtedly_, a far more satisfying experience than FF X-2, FF XI and FFXII. Hopefully this whole thing will come full circle and XIII (and all of its iterations) will blow our socks off - of course there's the chance that it could be too ambitious and end up being a huge disappointment, but I'm trying to remain optimistic.


----------



## Sephiroth

Amen.  I hadn't thought of it like that.  But yes, first PS3 release...fingers crossed!


The only word I would quibble with in your summation is _arguably_.  I'm incapable of being reasonable where FFVII is concerned.  For me, neither VIII nor IX can possibly hold a candle to it, much as I enjoyed them both for what they are.  But that's an old story by now, even in this thread.  Seph is obsessed with FFVII.  How appropriate.  How sad.


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## Commonmind

What can I say, I'm guilty of being a diplomat when it comes to the original Playstation titles. Where it's general consensus that FFX was the best FF to grace the PS2 (okay, there are definitely some wackos out there who loved FF X-2, no offense ladies), there are those fans that would argue VIII and IX were more memorable than VII. I've played Devil's Advocate in a few of those same conversations, but while I might have enjoyed IX's charm or VIII's...quirkiness, VII was the quintessential Final Fantasy experience - the first "high" if you will, one that both the fans and SE themselves are trying to experience again.


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## Sephiroth

Yeah, I've been in a few of those conversations.  I'm one of the purps who won't give ground.  Heh.  

Oh, I'm a reasonable soul really, and I liked both VIII and IX.  But VII...changed me...if that doesn't sound too melodramatic and poncy a thing to say about a video game.  It inserted itself into my psyche somehow, such was the connection I felt with the world and the characters whilst playing it.  I have never had another experience like that, before or since.  And the music...the score is just phenomenal.  

Every time there's a new release, I buy the game, come home, turn out the lights, jack the sound up on the TV and get closer to the screen...and away I go again.  Hoping, beyond all hope, that this time will be like the first........

Not asking for much, then.


----------



## Commonmind

Not at all


----------



## Lith

Seph, I had never imagined you might be irrationally in love with FF7.

I suppose I have to come in here now and defend FF12.  It really is the most ambitious one yet, it's only a pity that it took so long in development, and that's part of the problem people have with it, I think.  It stops rather abruptly probably because the director got fired and the new crew was given orders to wrap it up and get it to market before the PS3 came out.  5 years is too long a development time for any game, really.  

As for the story, I really liked it.  It felt a bit like Dune (which ironically I _don't_ like) and a bit like A Song of Ice and Fire.  It really felt like the product of a more mature mind.  10 was a very good game, but it had a few absolute WTF?!? moments.  I didn't have any moments like that in the game, with the story or with the game itself, which I'm infinitely thankful for.  Hang on, there was one moment... "I'm Captain Basch fon Ronsenburg of Dalmasca!"... yeah.

There are some things in games that if you know about them in real life, it can make games nearly unplayable.  Like geography and architecture (maybe not big on other's lists but they are on mine)- the world is more believably constructed than any game I've played.  Too many games rely on a single path through a 3-D environment, which is both unrealistic and disappointing, since it means they're really 3-D side-scrollers rather than true 3-D.  

There are things in storytelling and history (human culture, etc.) that are the same, but I'm not going to argue them here because it's been too long now since I've played either game and I'm forgetting details.  

Furthermore, FF12 rocks because it doesn't have TIDUS.  I wanted to strangle him rather badly thorughout the game, for his bad voice acting and even worse fashion sense.  Vaan's still not my ideal lead, but the annoyance factor was _much_ lower.  And I liked ALL the characters in 12.  Usually in a game there are one or two which I never use (RedXIII, Zell, Quina, Kimahri, etc.) but I played all the characters willingly.  I was only annoyed at Vossler's gambits.  I didn't like him running off on me and dying all the time, forcing one of my characters to constantly heal him instead of wacking at bad guys themselves.

I might add though, that it wasn't until well into 12 that I thought it edged 10 out.  I was very surprised, as I hadn't been looking forward to the game at all.

Oh, and FFX-2 has some interesting things going on underneath the surface glitter, but you have to dig rather deep to get to them (there's an underlying story or theme which is never mentioned in the actual game or by the developers).  It's an odd sort of game, really.  And yeah, the girl in me loved the dress-up parts and the monkey-matching contest.  Guys get nearly every other game on the market...


----------



## Commonmind

The abruptness of the game's ending had little to do with Matsuno leaving the project. If games were made chronologically, from beginning (opening scene) to end (credits), you might have had a point - they're not, however, and so the abrupt conclusion remains the result of poor execution. If you're going to say Matsuno's departure affected the development, you'd have to say that it affected the quality of the entire product, as that would be far more accurate when it comes to game design. It's not like writing a book, where an author passes on and another comes in to finish the work from where the first author left off.

Let's remember that an FF title is the sum of its parts. It's not a specific piece of the puzzle, but the overall image that makes the experience memorable. As you alluded to yourself, every game is a mixed bag of good and bad. It's how it all comes together that counts. XII, on a whole, was simply less enjoyable (for us) than previous titles. And there's really no need to defend the game; I don't think either one of us were saying it was a tragic failure or a huge hunk of crap, only that it lacked something inherent in other SE games - I'd call it polish; or rather, cohesiveness. I'm probably using too many analogies here, but think of Final Fantasy as a brand of wine. Though we didn't necessarily enjoy this Merlot compared to the Savignon and Shiraz we've had before it, it's still a fine wine. 

As for the underlying messages in X-2, I fail to see what they were and I'd go so far as to say any thematic messages extracted from that sideshow of a game are purely  accidental. Even the very blatant message was difficult to discern -  though it didn't help that the story demanded my undivided attention whilst simultaneously wagging polygonally attractive bottoms in my face the majority of the time.


----------



## Commonmind

Relevant to the conversation, here is an excellent 1up article on our most beloved franchise -

Future Fantasy: Final Fantasy's 20th Anniversary Retrospective, Part 4 from 1UP.com


----------



## Lith

True, they knew where they were going before they got into development on FF12, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have been more complex as they worked on it.  They were midway through development when they decided to kill Aeris, after all, which is a part of what eventually endeared the game to so many people.  We'll never know now though exactly what could have happened.  

Not being much of a drinker, your wine analogy is completely lost on me.  Though I don't understand how many people say the game had NO story (and a lot of people on the internet do).  It had at least as much story as 8 and 9.  It had one, just perhaps not as intricate as 10 or 7 (which had the most intriguing and developed storyline, I'll admit).  



> ...only that it lacked something inherent in other SE games - I'd call it polish; or rather, cohesiveness.


I think we'll have to disagree on this one- that's exactly what I feel 12 has that the _others_ lack.  It's a total package, where the others are only pieces of something that could have been utterly stellar, mixed in with stuff that doesn't make any sense or is rather stupid.  

Funny how tastes work, isn't it?

FFX-2 is an interesting experiment- after all, what can you do with a story after you're done telling it?  What exactly DO you do with yourself after saving the world?  The game's a downbeat almost by necessity, which doesn't perhaps make it a great game, but interesting nonetheless.  Spira, having freed itself from Sin and Yevon, is drunk on its own freedom, and it expresses itself in a variety of shallow activities.  Having destroyed its own holy order, it wallows in profanity (not cussing, but crassness such as turning Zanarkand into a commercial enterprise), and the world becomes rather a mess of small organizations that can't compete with the glory Yevon had.

As for Yuna, she's going through a period of exploration herself.  All that she was is gone, she spent her life expecting to die, and didn't, and now she doesn't know what to do with herself.  So she tries this and that.  She has yet to form a new meaning for her life, and there doesn't seem much in Spira that deserves selfless devotion.  It all makes you wonder about what saving the world really means- they destroyed Sin and exposed Yevon as a sham, but did they make the world a better place?  Now everyone's running around thinking about themselves and indulging their whims.

Whether or not the developers had this in mind when they made it, or whether they were just trying to turn a quick buck, I don't know.  It kind of doesn't matter; as long as a reading is compatible with what's in the game, it's valid.


----------



## McMurphy

Jaire said:


> Because you can buy alcohol in a game? What's it matter?



I think the alcohol buying was more in attempt to illustrate an age framework around the typical Final Fantasy character.

In truth, I do agree with that criticism in regards to the turn based role playing games in general by SquareEnix.  Since franchises such as Final Fantasy has done its valued part in attracting older and female gamers to the genre, it would be nice to have the main characters a bit longer in the tooth, particularly when it comes to subplots of romance.


----------



## Commonmind

Lith said:


> True, they knew where they were going before they got into development on FF12, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have been more complex as they worked on it.  They were midway through development when they decided to kill Aeris, after all, which is a part of what eventually endeared the game to so many people.  We'll never know now though exactly what could have happened.
> 
> Not being much of a drinker, your wine analogy is completely lost on me.  Though I don't understand how many people say the game had NO story (and a lot of people on the internet do).  It had at least as much story as 8 and 9.  It had one, just perhaps not as intricate as 10 or 7 (which had the most intriguing and developed storyline, I'll admit).
> 
> I think we'll have to disagree on this one- that's exactly what I feel 12 has that the _others_ lack.  It's a total package, where the others are only pieces of something that could have been utterly stellar, mixed in with stuff that doesn't make any sense or is rather stupid.
> 
> Funny how tastes work, isn't it?
> 
> FFX-2 is an interesting experiment- after all, what can you do with a story after you're done telling it?  What exactly DO you do with yourself after saving the world?  The game's a downbeat almost by necessity, which doesn't perhaps make it a great game, but interesting nonetheless.  Spira, having freed itself from Sin and Yevon, is drunk on its own freedom, and it expresses itself in a variety of shallow activities.  Having destroyed its own holy order, it wallows in profanity (not cussing, but crassness such as turning Zanarkand into a commercial enterprise), and the world becomes rather a mess of small organizations that can't compete with the glory Yevon had.
> 
> As for Yuna, she's going through a period of exploration herself.  All that she was is gone, she spent her life expecting to die, and didn't, and now she doesn't know what to do with herself.  So she tries this and that.  She has yet to form a new meaning for her life, and there doesn't seem much in Spira that deserves selfless devotion.  It all makes you wonder about what saving the world really means- they destroyed Sin and exposed Yevon as a sham, but did they make the world a better place?  Now everyone's running around thinking about themselves and indulging their whims.
> 
> Whether or not the developers had this in mind when they made it, or whether they were just trying to turn a quick buck, I don't know.  It kind of doesn't matter; as long as a reading is compatible with what's in the game, it's valid.



Well, no one's arguing that changes aren't often made throughout the development process. I was merely pointing out that games weren't developed chronologically, as you had insinuated in your defense of XII's ending. We both seem to agree on one thing, Matsuno leaving the project directly affected the quality of the finished product.  

As for the analogy, what I was trying to say was that Final Fantasy titles are usually Triple-A compared to other games on the market, and that FFXII, while not the best _the series'_ has had to offer so far, was still a fantastic game.

I still can't bring myself to discuss X-2 at length - no offense to you or your personal experience with the game. I've tried to replay it many times with the hope that I would finally "get it." Alas, a futile effort.


----------



## Lenny

Slight aside - new Squenix book coming out in Japan, on the 14th. It's called *CLOUD*. With it comes a bonus disc, on which there are brand new trailers for both *FFXIII* and *Versus XIII*.


----------



## Sephiroth

Great article, Commonmind, thanks.  I totally agree with its conclusion.  I find myself bemused by the bewildering array of FF games about to be on offer.  Quite apart from the fact that it smacks of rampant commercialism (no one should be surprised there), I, too, worry that all of this will devalue the franchise, and leave us all disillusioned.  For one thing, it looks like you are going to have to own every available console in order to play them all (surprise, surprise), and then even if you are rich enough or crazy enough to do that, there's the price of each game to consider.  For another thing, if they are rushing to bombard us with a million different games, it dilutes the effect that any one of them can have, even if it's truly amazing.  Some people will have bought 'the other one' instead  And you worry about the quality of some of the others. 

Part of me is excited by _Crisis Core_, for example, and part of me wishes they'd never made it.  I don't even have a PSP.  The one that's rumoured for the mobile phone...I really don't see the point in that.  And the more I think about it, the less I want to see a remake of VII.  

How many books are there, Lenny, have there been many others?


There's other stuff to respond to here, but I haven't the time now since I'm going out.


----------



## Lenny

I haven't the faintest idea, Seph. 

All I know is that the new one is coming out at the end of this week.


----------



## Sephiroth

Right.  Heh.  Does anyone know?


----------



## Commonmind

I think I touched upon this over-commercialization in another thread somewhere. To summarize what I said there, I really dislike the direction in which SE and other companies are going in this regard. And while I do own every current system on the market (DS Lite, PSP, PS3, 360 and Wii) the prospect of having to buy an assortment of software for each to enjoy the entirety of the experience is not my idea of a good time. I never played Chain of Memories and it rather pissed me off that I missed an aspect of the KH story because of it. I missed out based on the fact that, at the time, I had no Gameboy Advance and had no plans to buy one.

Enjoy your night on the town, Seph.


----------



## Lenny

Commonmind said:


> I never played Chain of Memories and it rather pissed me off that I missed an aspect of the KH story because of it. I missed out based on the fact that, at the time, I had no Gameboy Advance and had no plans to buy one.


 
*Kingdom Hearts 2: Final Mix*, PS2.

I believe it's been released in English. Basically it's KH2, with a few extra bits, AND KH:CoM in 3D.

EDIT: No English version, I'm afraid. Though Seph may be interested to know that a book was released with it. 

EDIT2: In fact, you know Japanese don't you, CM? All you need, then, is a Japanese PS2.


----------



## Sephiroth

Hey, I'd own every console if I could afford it too.  

But yes, the games are the real killer.  

But what you say about Chain of Memories, that's the crux of the issue for me.  I hate to think that I will miss out on a part of the experience because they chose to try and squeeze me dry, and I couldn't or wouldn't fork out the extra.  

It was irritating enough when I bought the IX walkthrough (having already completed the game twice, I might add) and discovered that you had to log on to their website to get the juiciest secrets.  Didn't I just pay £13 for that?  I didn't have an internet connection at the time.  I was furious.  


Thanks.    But I'm going to my parents, out of town.  Nothing wild.  


Cheers Lenny.  Any more?  


[edit]  You know Japanese, CM?  Damn...

*bows down to the sensei*


----------



## Lith

I don't mind the side projects so much, as long as the quality keeps up. What I mind is the cross-platforming, and re-releases with new stuff in every one.

Though I don't have to worry about the different consoles personally, it's really annoying to think that people have to own two or three of them to follow, say, FF12. And I'm not sure it's good for fans just jumping into the series to pick up the side stories first on other consoles they own.

And I don't like buying slightly different copies of essentially the same game. (Same goes with books, music, and movies.)

Commonmind- you didn't miss anything in CoM. Just read an online script and you're good. Seriously, 80% of the game is recap material, all the same worlds. (I'll bet you could find all the relevant scenes on YouTube, if it came to that.)

As for FFX-2, I can kind of understand that the game might be unbearable on a personal level. I had mixed feelings the first time I played it, and it was only through trying very hard to get the 100% ending that I was reconciled to the game (I've now put in over twice as much time on it as with the first one! eep!) Ironically, I still haven't reached 100%, due to an oversight in the game guide that requires me to do this and that throughout all five game chapters.

And yes, I want to buy alcohol with my game characters. Those final boss battles just aren't the same without a little liquid nerves. 

Seriously though, I just want someone that can reasonably be expected to run around the world without parents and not raise eyebrows by the local populace, and whose gender is fairly readily distinguishable without consulting the game guide. For example, the first five hours of KH were spent under the impression that Sora was a very nice girl. I know Japan is their primary demographic, but our market (speaking for the US) is larger, and they'll take our money gladly enough, making us a fairly big factor in their company's well-being. But a good story still trumps that demand.


----------



## Commonmind

Lenny said:


> *Kingdom Hearts 2: Final Mix*, PS2.
> 
> I believe it's been released in English. Basically it's KH2, with a few extra bits, AND KH:CoM in 3D.
> 
> EDIT: No English version, I'm afraid. Though Seph may be interested to know that a book was released with it.
> 
> EDIT2: In fact, you know Japanese don't you, CM? All you need, then, is a Japanese PS2.



I've actually got a Japanese PS2. I imported one from NCSX before they hit the states. I'm also the first guy to grab an import SE release, including the original Final Mix, but Final Mix II was (and still is, in many cases) consistently sold out after release so it sort of made its way to the back of the list and got forgotten about. At this point I probably won't bother with it. I'm sure, out of the shoebox of KH games being thrown at us these next few years, I'll be able to reason out what I missed.


----------



## Commonmind

Sephiroth said:


> Hey, I'd own every console if I could afford it too.
> 
> But yes, the games are the real killer.
> 
> But what you say about Chain of Memories, that's the crux of the issue for me.  I hate to think that I will miss out on a part of the experience because they chose to try and squeeze me dry, and I couldn't or wouldn't fork out the extra.
> 
> It was irritating enough when I bought the IX walkthrough (having already completed the game twice, I might add) and discovered that you had to log on to their website to get the juiciest secrets.  Didn't I just pay £13 for that?  I didn't have an internet connection at the time.  I was furious.
> 
> 
> Thanks.    But I'm going to my parents, out of town.  Nothing wild.
> 
> 
> Cheers Lenny.  Any more?



We were separated at birth, you and I. I had the same frustration. Though I did have an internet connection at the time, I was still on dial-up and the Playonline page was horribly slow. It didn't help that for every entry you were trying to locate you had to input a code and wait for a new page to load. 




> [edit]  You know Japanese, CM?  Damn...
> 
> *bows down to the sensei*


I do. However, I will accept no fealty, I still need to keep my dictionary next to me when I play my imports as I have not (and likely never will) mastered the written language. I'm waiting for the day when the Japanese Ministry of Education finally decides to abolish Kanji altogether and moves permanently to the Kana system - which I believe to be a matter of time.


----------



## Commonmind

Lith said:


> Commonmind- you didn't miss anything in CoM. Just read an online script and you're good. Seriously, 80% of the game is recap material, all the same worlds. (I'll bet you could find all the relevant scenes on YouTube, if it came to that.)
> 
> As for FFX-2, I can kind of understand that the game might be unbearable on a personal level. I had mixed feelings the first time I played it, and it was only through trying very hard to get the 100% ending that I was reconciled to the game (I've now put in over twice as much time on it as with the first one! eep!) Ironically, I still haven't reached 100%, due to an oversight in the game guide that requires me to do this and that throughout all five game chapters.
> 
> And yes, I want to buy alcohol with my game characters. Those final boss battles just aren't the same without a little liquid nerves.
> 
> Seriously though, I just want someone that can reasonably be expected to run around the world without parents and not raise eyebrows by the local populace, and whose gender is fairly readily distinguishable without consulting the game guide. For example, the first five hours of KH were spent under the impression that Sora was a very nice girl. I know Japan is their primary demographic, but our market (speaking for the US) is larger, and they'll take our money gladly enough, making us a fairly big factor in their company's well-being. But a good story still trumps that demand.



Thanks Lith, I may just look it up now that you've thrown that idea at me. I have to admit, talking about it today has rekindled some of my interest. 

And I have to admit, there are times I would like to be playing a character who feels more mature and whose looks are more "realistic," but I'm also unsure of whether or not SE is capable of developing that style of game, both artistically and thematically.


----------



## Commonmind

I was going to apologize for the multiple posts but then I realized how insanely ironic this apology was based on the fact that I made a new post to post it. So, in an attempt to distract you from my momentary lapse of intelligence, I give you a picture of an adorable puppy:







...and so that I stay on topic and do not invite the wrath of the moderators...a picture of an adorable Chocobo face...


----------



## Sephiroth

Commonmind said:


> We were separated at birth, you and I. I had the same frustration. Though I did have an internet connection at the time, I was still on dial-up and the Playonline page was horribly slow. It didn't help that for every entry you were trying to locate you had to input a code and wait for a new page to load.



That is spooky indeed.  Ah, the pain of dial-up.  I remember it well.  



> I do. However, I will accept no fealty, I still need to keep my dictionary next to me when I play my imports as I have not (and likely never will) mastered the written language. I'm waiting for the day when the Japanese Ministry of Education finally decides to abolish Kanji altogether and moves permanently to the Kana system - which I believe to be a matter of time.



Yeah but dude.  Duuude!  You speak Japanese!  I'd love to speak Japanese.  But....wakarimasen.  Nihongo ga dekimasen.  

Kanji, well, they say it's nigh on impossible for a foreigner, unless you're a real cunning linguist.  Kana is a collective term for both Hiragana and Katakana?  They look a bit more manageable, but are still pretty confusing (_very _confusing) for me at the stage I'm at.  Which is nowhere. 

Speaking it is good enough for me.  I hope I can learn one day.  


Oh, loving the puppy and chocobo, btw.


----------



## Commonmind

Correct, "kana" refers to both. The only way I found to master it was to stop trying to associate the phonetic symbol with the written romaji translation and start associating it with the sound. It takes an element out of the process that is really unnecessary to begin with. The sound "ka" is spelled ka, so rather than obsessing over trying to get it through my brain that カ or か was supposed to = "K" and "A" together as well as the sound "ka" I started writing down the symbol and speaking the sound aloud, leaving the romaji out of it entirely.

In English we have no third element. We do not need to say that か = the sound ka as well as = the letters k and A. A letter has a sound associated with it and that's where the complication ends. A westerner trying to learn Japanese has to learn as if he is a native himself. Learn that a phonetic has a sound association and not a translation as well as a sound association and pretty soon you'll be doing the same thing with whole words - your brain will not have to translate a word to understand what it means, the word will simply evoke an image; that's the first step to fluency.

Apologize for the long windedness  I get a little carried away when it comes to languages.

Edit: Another nice feature from 1up that's definitely worth a read; they rate the entire Final Fantasy franchise: Final Fantasy Retro Roundup from 1UP.com


----------



## Sephiroth

No, I appreciate the advice.  This is exactly what I was reading a couple of weeks back, and my friend who's in Japan atm says the same thing.  I really need to find the time amidst the other stuff I'm doing to try and memorise all the sounds. 

But after that...there's the characters themselves.  They are pretty intimidating for me too.  They don't look anything like things I'm used to looking at.  If that makes sense?  Seems like they are quite complicated to write down (I dread to think what the Kanji are like...well, I've seen it, it baffles me....).

How many languages do you speak, then?


And on-thread, thanks for the article.  There are games in there that I didn't even know existed!!


----------



## Sephiroth

Although in retrospect, I'd like to kill whomever wrote that review of FFVII.  


Could they be any more wrong about, well, all of it?


The story a mess?  It's the _only one _with a first-class story!!


----------



## Commonmind

Sephiroth said:


> No, I appreciate the advice.  This is exactly what I was reading a couple of weeks back, and my friend who's in Japan atm says the same thing.  I really need to find the time amidst the other stuff I'm doing to try and memorise all the sounds.
> 
> But after that...there's the characters themselves.  They are pretty intimidating for me too.  They don't look anything like things I'm used to looking at.  If that makes sense?  Seems like they are quite complicated to write down (I dread to think what the Kanji are like...well, I've seen it, it baffles me....).
> 
> How many languages do you speak, then?
> 
> 
> And on-thread, thanks for the article.  There are games in there that I didn't even know existed!!



Some Italian, a little German, and Japanese of course (the latter of those being the only one I've put any great effort into). It's more the study of languages than language study that floats my boat. One of my first career choices was to go into the military as a Linguist and Cryptologist - I actually went so far as going to meps for the medical exam and taking the dlab test for my language assignment. Fortunately my wife smacked me around a bit and reminded me that even if I were to go into military intelligence that didn't mean I was too smart for a bullet. Needless to say, I pursued my musical interests instead 

And yeah, his opinion of FFVII is very pot-stirrer'ish, but I'll let it pass only because it's Jeremy Parish and he's written enough quality material to get him out of trouble this time..._this time._


----------



## Lith

Flash cards. They work wonders. They don't have to be professional ones, either, just notecards. The sooner you introduce the Japanese characters, the better later (though it's a pain in the butt for a while). After that, it's practice, practice, practice, reading and writing. And after several years of that, you'll still be picking through Famitsu scans bit by bit, not recognizing most of it. I know this from firsthand experience.

Anyway, that puppy's CUUUUUTTTEEEE!!!!


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## Sephiroth

Also, du sprichst ein bisschen Deutsch, CM?  Mich auch, aber ich habe viele Vokabeln vergessen.  Ich habe es am Schule gelernt (studiert?).  

Linguistics fascinates me.  I wish I was more proficient.  Don't much fancy the bullet-taking side of it, though; think I'd rather be a civilian linguist.  


Lith, you think I should spend more time practising with the flash-card program I downloaded then?!  Yes, I think you're right.  I'm so lazy, I don't know why I even moan.  I have no right to speak Japanese, the effort I've put in so far.

But at the moment, the symbols on the cards (which, unfortunately, are Kanji) are still meaningless to me.  

But thanks for the advice, guys.


----------



## Commonmind

Very little, yes, with a dwindling vocabulary like yourself. Never got the chance to study it in school unfortunately; the only language they offered when I attended high-school was Spanish and college was eaten up by more important courses. I would've tried to justify a frivolous language or three but I would've probably been swallowed by the stress monster.


----------



## Commonmind

Lith said:


> Anyway, that puppy's CUUUUUTTTEEEE!!!!



Isn't it? I want to find out who took that picture so I can go steal that little guy. I bet he's got a whole posse of cuteness following him around; like one of those furry kittens that look like little fuzz-balls; those tiny flying squirrels that aren't any bigger than your palm; he probably even knows a whole gang of baby kangaroos.

I miss my doggies  Don't get me wrong, I love my cats, but they're about as personable as the wicker chair I'm sitting in.


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## Sephiroth

Spanish was the one I wanted to take at school, but it wasn't on offer.  I'm pretty useless at German now, because of how much I've forgotten. 

But thanks to Tolkien, I was always interested in linguistics.  


I wouldn't mind a moogle.  Sorbet, from XII, preferably.  Or Stiltzkin.




Kupo!


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## Commonmind

How awesome would that be. Come home after a long day, put on the kettle, kick up your feet and snuggle with your moogle. 

(I was a Gurdy man myself )


----------



## thaddeus6th

Linguistics are cool. Ich habe ein Abitur auf Deutsch, seit funf Jahren.

Also interesting is noting little patterns. If you live in the PAL area quite often you can choose different languages which is both educational and interesting. It makes little language patterns more obvious, like a German D can often become an English TH and a German B is sometimes an English V (Dorn = thorn, Dieb = Thief, Sieben = seven). Plus Du hast is very nearly thou hast.

Uh yeah...Final Fantasy... er started replaying XII. The combat system's great, I just wish there'd been more character development and Vaan (which is Latin for Useless And Disinteresting Moron) and Penelo had been replaced by cool characters. I'd prfeer Edge and Cecil from FFIV than those two morons.


----------



## Mithridelle

Sorta relates to FF, but it can relate to any game, really...

So are you a 'Story Player' or a 'Leveling Player'?

'Story Player' being one who rushes through the game to get through the story and only training when it is absolutely neccessary and 'Leveling Player' being one who takes the time to become strong and reach high levels from the beginning.


I am a 'Leveling Player'. I am just replaying FFVII and played for about 2 hrs and reached Lv.20 by the first save point in the reactor. My sister recently replayed FFVIII and was at Lv.50 before the Seed Exam.... that's freakish...

So what type are you?


----------



## Cayal

Story by a mile.


----------



## Mithridelle

I love the story, but I feel that unless I level all characters up to maximum and finish everything off, then I don't really get as much out of the game as I want.

That's just obsessive Mithri though...


----------



## Lith

Unabashedly a story player.  I only "level" when I get killed by a boss more than once in a row.  Most monsters aren't interesting enough for me to spend hours killing them for fun.  

Actually I like to leave unexplored areas in the game.  Helps keep the illusion that it's an immersive world with stuff to still discover.  Though I did go to the length of buying the strategy guide for FF12 in order to do exactly that (though I haven't found the time).  Ironically I've come closest to finishing FFX-2, solely on account of the 100% special ending, and did go through the game with the guide on that one (though it was WRONG AND DIDN'T TELL ME TO DO SOMETHING IT SHOULD HAVE!!!!!)  

Ahem, yeah...besides which, not levelling makes the bosses a lot more challenging!


----------



## Talysia

Same here - I'm a story player, too.  When I first get the game, I play it through for the story, then I'll play it through a second time getting everything and getting high levels.


----------



## Commonmind

For me it depends on the game. It's hard to say one way or the other considering how very different each game has been. For those titles where the story took a front seat to the gameplay mechanics, I played through as quickly as possible, to get to the next sequence of events (games I can remember playing this way: Final Fantasy III, IV and IX). Titles in which the gameplay is more compelling, I will generally grind and do as many of the side quests as possible, leaving the story on the burner until it boils over and demands my attention; that's not to say I didn't enjoy the story in those particular games, just that the combat or questing was far more compelling (FF X, XII and VIII). Then there are those gems which were equal parts awesome, on all fronts, which I played to death for both the story and the gameplay, those being FF VI and VII. 

So for me it's different every time and though I'd like a balance of good gameplay and plot, I'm generally satisfied if an FF does one or the other to a certain degree of quality and polish. The only frustrating part is that when they do both extremely well (FF VI, VII...and X, if the last few hours hadn't been such a mess) their games are extraordinary examples of game design.


----------



## Mithridelle

This has already been brought up a while ago, but only Taly and I were discussing it.

In FFVII, who do you aim to go out with on a date at the Gold Saucer and why? (out of Aeris, Tifa, Yuffie and Barrett)

I alway try to go with Aeris simply because of the tragic events that happen later on in the game and the limited time (in comparison to the other characters) that you get to spend with her because of this... she has to have some happy moments...


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## Sephiroth

I can't be nasty to Aeris, no matter how hard I try.  I don't think I've ever been with anyone else at the Gold Saucer.  


As for the previous question....I played VII, VIII and IX through at low levels, very quickly, for the stories (and because the fights are more of a challenge that way), and then played them again, levelling up in advance.  X and XII I stayed well ahead of in terms of levels even on my first playthrough, though.  And when I went back and played VI, I did the same thing, levelling up in advance. 

I agree with what Commonmind said.


----------



## Karn Maeshalanadae

I personally think Sony screwed the series up-it was much cooler back when it belonged to Nintendo-but I managed to complete FF X after getting the Knight's Shield, Quick Hit, and Zombie attack on the main character. For those of you stuck on Yu Yevon on X by his full cure: ZOMBIE ATTACK!


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## Lenny

Sony have nothing to do with it. The only link is that their platforms are Squenix's preferred choice for the main FF games.

Square Enix are a completely independent third party developer and publisher. As a result, they decide which platform to develop and publish games on.

When the PS1 came out, it was by far the most successful gaming platform of the time, and so Squaresoft, as they were, moved Final Fantasy from the Nintendo system to the Sony system. They carried the series on to the PS2 with FFX, and now they've decided the follow the trend and develop FFXIII and Versus XIII for the PS3.

Now if Sony did what millions of fans of both companies want them to do and bought Squenix to make them a firsty-party publisher, every single Squenix game would be exclusive to Sony platforms... but thta's never going to happen, 1. the money involved in buying out such a large company, 2. Squenix would never allow it.


----------



## Sephiroth

_Stuck _on _Yu-Yevon?_ _



Duuude_........ 



I think Yu Yevon lasted about four hits.  Maybe five.  

Penance, now _that _was a fight.  Although he's not on the North American version, as far as I am aware...which is a shame.


----------



## Mithridelle

You can't go wrong with _Break-damage-limit_!



Agree with you on the Penance fight Sephy. That was fun.


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## Cayal

Mithridelle said:


> I alway try to go with Aeris simply because of the tragic events that happen later on in the game and the limited time (in comparison to the other characters) that you get to spend with her because of this... she has to have some happy moments...



First time I played through I thought something would happen between her and Cloud.


----------



## Sephiroth

Ah, it would have, it would have...................




If it hadn't been for.....well, me.  





So who else has been Penance, then?


----------



## Emu

I just play IV, VII, Final fantasy: War of the Lions on the psp and on the playstation.


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## Sephiroth

War of the Lions?




Haven't seen that.  What's it like?


----------



## Lucien21

It's the new Final Fantasy Tactics game.

IGN: Final Fantasy Tactics: The War of The Lions Review


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## Overread

At some point the DS is also getting a copy of the new tactics as well!


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## Mithridelle

Mith will have to check this out....


----------



## WriterDoug

I have basically played them all, and some to absolute death and beyond.

Final Fantasy VI has remained my favorite in the series for over ten years now, and I don't foresee this changing anytime soon.  I feel the series reached its highpoint at FFIX, which was perhaps a brilliant game, mixing together all the classic elements of the previous installments plus a few new bits.  As you can probably guess, it is without question my second favorite of the series.  After this game, the series lost something, and I am not sure what.  The tenth installment certainly was not bad, but it just did not grab me the same way previous games had, nor any of the titles that came afterwards.

I still love the series, but not quite like I used to.  









Cheers,
WD


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## Sephiroth

Cheers for the link, Lucien.  

It looks good.  I haven't played any of the _Tactics _games, and they haven't been heavily discussed here, either.  

Does anyone have something to say about them?



Doug, I agree that the series has lost something of its original charm.  In this age of rampant commercialism, when there are something like fifteen FF titles scheduled for release over the next year-and-a-half, I suppose that was inevitable.........

Still, if it had maintained its momentum through to the end, FFX would have taken its place alongside VI and VII as a truly great game.  I loved the gameplay, but the story ended up being a real let-down..........

You have good taste, though; VI is a classic.  It's my second-favourite, behind VII (as everyone knows, I guess), but I understand why those who played it first rate it the highest.  I played it again recently, and was thnking how cool it would have been on a more powerful console (note: that does _not _mean I want to see it remade!!).  I felt a bit the same about XII as you seem to have about X.  But then, others, like Lith, rate XII highest of all...........

Your man Kefka was a cracking villain.  Almost as good as me.


----------



## WriterDoug

Perhaps my Terra Branford avatar had been a dead give-away, too?  

To be honest, I have not given FFXII the fair and full treatment it deserves; I just keep forgetting to do so.

As for FFXIII, well, I am not sure what I can say yet since the games are not out?  It does seem odd that Squenix is making  a trilogy out of it, one of which is a cell-phone based game (meaning I will NEVER see it!)  I had heard rumors long ago that Square did not possess the rights to number games in the series beyond XIII, so perhaps they are delaying the inevitable, or perhaps it is just a coincidence they want to overkill this particular roman numeral?

I have a feeling already you may scold me for this, but I treat VII and VIII almost as equals.  For me, FFVII has (clearly) the superior story, but strangely I find the gameplay in FFVIII far more enjoyable.  It could be that I found the Junction system to be more fun than handling 100+ pieces of materia, and I certainly appreciated Square's effort at the time to be wildly unique.  When it comes down to characters, again I award FFVII over FFVIII in this department, but the former tends to be such a depressing game, and I have never quite gotten over the death of Aeris, no matter how many times they decide to reincarnate her. FFVIII's questionable love story and plotholes were more than dismissed by its amazingly long and satisfying game ending.  (FFIX still wins in this department, good GOD!  At just over 42 minutes in length, FFIX is perhaps my favorite game ending of all times.)

Both VII and VIII suffered heavily from easy abuse.  in FFVII, it was almost painful to observe the glitch that allowed items to be duplicated endlessly with W-Item (mind, strength, luck sources, etc anyone?)  The main problem with FFVIII ended up being something that made me _love playing the game immensely_.  Because mastery and manual control over the Junction system allowed your characters to basically become gods, I chose to beat the game the 3rd time around with a party of Squall, Rinoa and Zell all at levels 9, 11 and 9, respectively.  I had literally gone AFK on Griever/ Ultimecia for over ten minutes to make a sandwich because they had no chance of taking me down.

Also, I did enjoy _Advent Children_ a lot, but I can easily see how it would not appeal to non-FF fans.  I think they hit a bit closer on the money with this particular film.  _The Spirits Within_ was god-awful, and AC was certainly eye-candy and some of the best rendered action sequences I have ever seen.  Square/ Squenix still has yet to truly capture the "essence" of the games in a movie, but I expect them to try again!

I have much more to say, and I regret not knowing this thread existed!  For now, I must go.



PS:  Have you seen the FF Retrospective at GameTrailers.com?  This series is absolutely wonderful!  If watching a 4-5 hour documentary on the history of Final Fantasy and all FF games therein is your cup of tea, then you cannot go wrong.  I applaud the guy who made this entire project, because it is both highly entertaining and informative.  In case you haven't seen it (though I suspect you have) here is the link:  Gametrailers.com - The Source For Video Game Media

Cheers,
WD


----------



## Talysia

FFVI is one of my favourites, too.  Again, the characters were great, and the storyline was spot-on - it kept me intrigued right up until the end.  Kefka sticks in my mind as one of the great FF villains, although I have to say, Sephiroth was my favourite.  I'm another FFVII fan.

I must admit, though, I never used the W-materia in VII, although I did pick it up.  Instead, I morphed a lot of power/speed sources from monsters.  I must have a really complicated mind, though, because I liked the materia system.

And I love the Amano avatar, WD (ok, I'm biased - I like all of Amano's art).


----------



## Quokka

Should never have switched to xbox  when the price drops enough I think I'll go out and get a PS3 I haven't played a FF game since VII and would like to try them again. Anyone know how playble the earlier games are on the PS3? I don't suppose PS1 games are playable but what i'd really like to do is have a go at FF Tactics.

Always liked the matera system and its a nice touch that the PC game I'm currently playing (Divine Divinity) has basically done a direct rip of it.


----------



## Overread

PS2 is supposed to be getting a new upgrade at some point with increased backwards compatability - so I am waiting for this and for a price drop - problem was that the PS3 was released far earlier than it should have been to try and keep the market from the 360


----------



## Lenny

Diggage.

Twelve hours in, I've just started the crossing of the sandsea on my way to King Raithwell's Tomb, and I thought I'd take a small break to give my views on FFXII.

---

The first thing that struck me when I started the game was the opening FMV. Now I'm playing the game on my PS3, which is good as much as bad. The bad, to begin with, the version that I'm playing (or edition, if you will) has minor problems when playing, compared to none at all with later editions of the game. These minor problems really are minor - a bit of blur during FMVs and cutscenes, and the odd flickering. The good - full upscale to 1080p, a colour palette with more depth, blacker blacks and whiter whites. Now I though FFX was a pretty game when I played it in, with some of the best FMVs I'd ever seen. They ain't a touch on the FFXII ones!

The next thing I noticed was the new battle system. It took a while to get used to it, but I love it. It's refreshing to have a system that shows you fighting enemies in real time in the explorable environment, rather than having the thirty second transition into a new screen, then the battle, then the transition back to the environment. And I'm glad the random encounters have been done away with - after a while, they got old. Really old. So old that I'd be running around, trying to get somewhere, and wasting a minute every time to flee a battle because I just couldn't be bothered. Being able to see the enemy before it pulls the *Sneak Attack* card on you is a nice addition, as are the coloured lines showing who is targeting whom. And to finish off the battle system - Gambits. I'm finding them really useful. Currently I've got them set to heal at certain points, and attack anything in sight, which means I can jump in and take greater control with magic spells when I need to. It's been a long time since I last played an FF religiously (FFX! !), so I may be wrong in thinking it's a new addition, but I'm thankful for MP recharging as you run.

The third thing to really strike me was the story. I can't quite place my finger on why, but the way the story is told in FFXII...makes sense. Now don't get me wrong, I loved the story in FFX, and from my dippings into FFVII, I can see that that story isn't too shabby, but there's something about the story in FFXII thatI really like. It's leaps and bounds above other RPGs.

Characters. As always, there's some good voice acting, and there's some not-so-good voice acting. I think the best voice acting of the main party charcaters so far has to be Fran's, with the award for best voice acting of non-party members going to Lamont/Lasra (though it took me a while to figure out his gender!). As far as favourite characters go - Lamont/Lasra is up there, sitting just behind Balthier. I can see why so many people really like Balthier, and I can see why so many don't really like Vaan... sure, he's alright, but please stop whining! And the last thing I'm going to say is, "Moogles! So cute! ".


----------



## kaneda

Ooooooo how the HELLL did I miss this thread??

I'm absolutly obsessed with FF.  Specifically FFVII.  I've played VII, VIII, X, X11, and a bit of VI (but played it after i got the PS2 so it wasn't rocking). 

As I said, my absolute favourite game, is VII (playing it again at the moment, cloud has just found himself, and now I'm going to raise my chocobos!). 

I really don't get the appeal on VIII.  I've played it twice, and each time, hated it and felt was a waste of my time - I just don't understand why people like it, much less, love it.  It's one of the most frustrating games ever!. 

Back to VII, has anyone here, actually gone on a date with yuffie or barret.  I tried to do it this time round, but failed, so ended up dating Tifa hehe.


----------



## kaneda

Lenny - I also really enjoyed XII.  I loved the fighting in the game, and really liked the story (I won't ruin anything for you).  

However, it does not compare to the story of ffvii.  The fact that ffvii, actually tackles questions like "what is memory" "how to we define who we are" is what makes the game great.  

*kaneda is in ffvii rocks and nothing else can or will ever compare mood* lol. 


----------------

On a side note, did anyone here hear the rumour that ffvii is going to be rereleased on the ps3 (this all came on the tec demo).  Well apparently, the developers are too busy working on ffXIII at the moment to focus on that, BUT they have not ruled it out.  How incredible would that be. 

If anyone hasn't seen the tech demo,let me know and I'll link it!


----------



## Lenny

The last thing that was said about a possible FFVII remake was by... a fella whose name I forget. He was one of the key folks on FFVII, though. What he said was that it would only be possible if the schedules of the original team members were free - his and Nomura's being the key two. Now the only problem is that Nomura seems to have a plate the size of Wales at the moment. Not only is he doing FF Versus XIII, which we have still yet to see only gameplay from, but he's also got three Kingdom Hearts spin-offs going, as well as the third console KH title to start. And seeing as he like to release a game every five years, it might be a long time before we see an FFVII remake.


----------



## Wayward Ho!

I recently bought FFI and FFII for the PSP, enjoying both of them at present. Though I will admit that I couldn't wait to finish FFI before I started on FFII, as II is a lot more fun. A shame they have taken me away from War of the Lions... ah well, so much Final Fantasy so little time. I still need to go back and replay VII, VIII, IX, X and XII...

Well pleased with the PSP titles. Hopefully they will bring all of the earlier titles out so those of us who only started at VII can get a bash at them.


----------



## Cayal

kaneda said:


> *kaneda is in ffvii rocks and nothing else can or will ever compare mood* lol.



I am always in that mood. 


----------------



> On a side note, did anyone here hear the rumour that ffvii is going to be rereleased on the ps3 (this all came on the tec demo).  Well apparently, the developers are too busy working on ffXIII at the moment to focus on that, BUT they have not ruled it out.  How incredible would that be.
> 
> If anyone hasn't seen the tech demo,let me know and I'll link it!


They haven't ruled it out but it isn't any time soon it will happen. However I do think they will remake it and it will look amazing.


----------



## McMurphy

I know what you mean.  When the rumor first spread about a possible Final Fantasy VII remake, Square Enix officials practically pounded their fists on the podium swearing it wasn't going to happen. It sounds like, by the discussion you all have been providing, that they have softened somewhat on their stance, which is a good sign. It just seems foolish to absolutely ignore the fan base's pronounced desire to see a remake of the game. 

I also saw some props for Final Fantasy IX about a page up.  I totally agree.  I love that chapter and, really, it is my personal favorite of the franchise.


----------



## Lith

*************BUNNY MOOGLES ARE CUTE*********************


I love FF12.  Still waiting to replay it; I intend to do a thorough job of it when I do, and no one will see me for a month.  Totally agree on the quality of story and cutscenes.  Whoever did the FMVs understands a thing or two about cinema.  The story- love it, though it isn't as intricate as 7's, it makes more sense than the other games (though I love those ones too).  12 makes the others look half-baked at times.  I still need to go out and get FF12RW.  

I still hold that it's only a matter of time till they remake 7.  I don't think I've seen the tech demo yet...

On the PS3- I've been told the newer ones have software to make them compatible with older games.  All I can say is, they'd better!  And I'm still not going to be buying one for a long time...Did anyone see the FF12 PS2 they were giving away when it came out?  Japan only, unfortunately, but it was really beautiful.  If they'd have sold them here, I would have bought one.


----------



## Overread

hmm I have heard ( think from our tech emu ) that same that the newer releases of the PS3 are going to have complete backwards compatability


----------



## Lenny

Well... we're still waiting for an announcement that the 40gb's are definitely getting software emulation.

Currently, the 40gb models are the only ones that don't have any form of backwards compatibility with PS2 games. The other SKUs:

80gb US/Korea - About 90% BC, software/hardware
60gb EU/AU - About 90% BC, software/hardware
60gb US/JP - 99% BC, hardware
20gb US/JP - 99% BC, hardware

The ones in red have been discontinued, with stocks not being replenished once they've gone.

The EU is rumoured to be getting the 80gb SKU, but it will most likely be the 40gb SKU. Indeed, special 40gb SKUs have been announced for the EU - GT5: Prologue and MGS4 bundles.

If I were going to buy a PS3 now, I wouldn't. Rather, I'd wait until *E3 2008* has been and gone. Sony had a very small presence at the *Game Developers Conference* this year, with not even a press conference. At E3, however, they always have a massive keynote conference, as do Microsoft and Nintendo, and it's been more or less confirmed that in July (E3), Sony are going to announce some major things regarding the PS3.

---

So the long and short of it is - software emulation for the 40gb (the only remaining SKU on the market with stock levels being replenished) is rumoured to be coming, with people just waiting for confirmation by Sony, and Sony are virtually confirmed to be making some major announcements during their keynote at E3 this July.


----------



## Urien

I've always thought there was something inherently erroneous in any title higher than "Final Fantasy." Perhaps they should have gone with "Second to last Fantasy" or "Penultimate Fantasy."


----------



## Lenny

Rumours have it that XV will be the last... but I seriously doubt it. At any rate, they won't hit XV for at least ten years - it wouldn't surprise me if it were the first Squenix RPG on the PS4.


----------



## Overread

origanly the first final fantasy game was the last game -- however its success in japan was so great that they went on and made another 6 titles. The 7th title was the first released to the world market -though america- and started the massive FF revolution for the PSone
the only think I can see ending the franchise is the death/retirment of the core FF people == thier loss might spark a company choice to drop the franchise proper - but subgames would always be in production and even if they dropped FF they would still keep making other RPG


----------



## Cayal

Overread said:


> origanly the first final fantasy game was the last game -- however its success in japan was so great that they went on and made another 6 titles. The 7th title was the first released to the world market -though america- and started the massive FF revolution for the PSone
> the only think I can see ending the franchise is the death/retirment of the core FF people == thier loss might spark a company choice to drop the franchise proper - but subgames would always be in production and even if they dropped FF they would still keep making other RPG



The First Final Fantasy was the first and last because Square was going under, the game saved them.

Last I heard Final Fantasy 12 was meant to be the last. So much for that.



McMurphy said:


> I know what you mean.  When the rumor first spread about a possible Final Fantasy VII remake, Square Enix officials practically pounded their fists on the podium swearing it wasn't going to happen. It sounds like, by the discussion you all have been providing, that they have softened somewhat on their stance, which is a good sign. It just seems foolish to absolutely ignore the fan base's pronounced desire to see a remake of the game.
> 
> I also saw some props for Final Fantasy IX about a page up.  I totally agree.  I love that chapter and, really, it is my personal favorite of the franchise.



FF9 was a great game, I had a crush on Garnet...as far as one can have a crush on a bunch of pixels.

Though it seems FF9 gets lost in the discussions on the games.

--------------------

While I am on the thread. *Final Fantasy VIII* question -

Why did Squall suddenly desire Rinoa? I never understood his 180 on her.


----------



## Wayward Ho!

FFIX suffers from major problem. Kuja. Worse villain ever. This guy makes Seymour look tough. Other than that it was a fantastic game. Rat-chel... um... I mean...  Freya was my favourite character.


----------



## Commonmind

Overread said:


> origanly the first final fantasy game was the last game -- however its success in japan was so great that they went on and made another 6 titles. The 7th title was the first released to the world market -though america- and started the massive FF revolution for the PSone
> the only think I can see ending the franchise is the death/retirment of the core FF people == thier loss might spark a company choice to drop the franchise proper - but subgames would always be in production and even if they dropped FF they would still keep making other RPG



The Final Fantasy franchise is a force which is beyond the grip of the company's employees. Square-Enix has already lost core contributors to the series (in some cases during the process of a particular game's development) and it still hasn't lost any steam. The simple, white-hot truth of the matter is that Final Fantasy will not disappear until it's no longer a fruitful business venture - and even then, you'll likely see a change in moniker rather than concepts, themes and shared gameplay elements. 

The entire structure of the company could take on a new shape, but as long as Final Fantasy titles (and spin-offs, for that matter) are making a profit, they'll be a gaming mainstay.


----------



## Lenny

And the best thing about the franchise is the fact that every game is different. Sure, the core might be the same or similar (mechanics may see a change from game to game, but they still follow the formula of running around, fighting, levelling up) but, unlike other franchises in which newer games are identical to their predecessors (sports genre, anyone?), each Final Fantasy game is a different experience to its predecessor, particularly down to the story. Hell, no two 'main' Final Fantasy's are on the same world, are they? And by 'main' I mean the simply titled *Final Fantasy [Number]*. For example, I'd count *FFXIII* as a main FF, but not *FF vs. XIII* - rather, it's a spin-off set in the same world, like FFXII: Revenant Wings, or the myriad FFVII games that aren't *FFVII*.

I don't know where I wanted to go with this, but I'll just say, the FF brand will die out only when RPGs are no longer bought... which isn't going to be soon.


----------



## Lucien21

Isn't Final Fantasy X2 the only one that is a direct sequel to a FF storyline.


----------



## Lenny

It was definitely the first, but I'd still put it in the spin-off category.

As for other sequels, I believe the *FFVII* spin-offs not only contain a sequel, but also a prequel or two (I don't know which is which, though. I do know that there are a couple of handheld titles and one PS2 title). And *FFXII: Revenant Wings* for the Nintendo DS could be classed as a sequel - it takes place after the events in 
, using the same characters (well, Vaan, Penelo, Balthier and Fran. No Ashe or Basch).


----------



## Overread

yes == and we don't talk about Final Charlies Angles Fantasy X-2
though the recent FF12 was set in the same world as the FF tactics game - and it also now has a game (prequal) on the DS as well as relrelease of tactics on both the PSP (out now) adn the DS (still in development)


----------



## Lith

Yes we do.  I love that game too.

FF12 almost counts as a spinoff of a spinoff, except it has the official number.  And if you count all the hints of similarities between 7 and 10, you end up with something rather messy.  Square just likes to mess with us.  And as long as they keep messing with us in a good way, they'll keep making money (that is, by turning out intriguing stories).


----------



## Overread

I liked the combat system for 10-2 - - the roll changing was alittle strange though and broke character iamge (I mean Yuna of all characters with guns!!!!!!!!) but the idea of waiting for your allies added extra challenge to encounters that was not there before


----------



## Lith

Hey, anything to get away from the female white mage!  Didn't strike me as any stranger than hitting people with your healing staff, like Yuna in FFX, or Aeris in 7.  At least she didn't have a sword (well, not by default!).


----------



## Overread

well if its all you got - and those healing staffs are really hard!


----------



## Lith

The only thing worse than a physical attack with a staff is Lulu's animals. THOSE were the suckiest weapons ever. (Unless you wanted to take a bad guy down low and _not_ kill him. 

But I get real tired of female characters relegated to mages. Just another good thing about FF12.


----------



## Overread

ahh but then if you were attacking with lulu's animals (I think they were dolls!) then you were in touble!
thing I didn't like was the sphere grid in FFX - it was not really that customisable as you could hardly see where you were going if you wanted to change and change was very tricky to do. I liked the grid in FFXII - but thought that they should have limited it to one or two avenuse for each character - a little too free ( breaks character image alittle)


----------



## Lenny

That's a question - *FFXII: What are your characters licensed as? *You'll see what I mean with my answer.

*Vaan *- Black magic with strong dagger skills thrown into the mix.
*Balthier *- Swordsman all the way! No magic.
*Fran *- Healer, Green magic, White Magic, Time Magic, Arcane Magic, and a smidgeon of Black Magic. And bows.
*Basch *- Quickenings (for the moment). I'll swap Fran out for him, drain him of MP, then swap Fran brack in.

*Ashe* and *Penelo *are never used.

EDIT: Hey! You damned semi-psychic, you!

I liked the sphere grid. Much more than I like the license grid. I have fond memories of having to start *FFX *for a third time after having first completely missed the point of the grid, and second having gone backwards rather than forwards.


----------



## Overread

hmm I made Fran into a copy of err that dragonknight from FFIX -- so magic and spears!
Balthier - guns - has to be guns after his intro!!
the rest -- I forget


----------



## Lenny

If I hadn't happened across a sword that did more damage than his guns, he'd still be gunning people down... but now he's my strongest fighter (regularly hitting for 700-800, whilst Fran and Vaan hit for about half that. All three are level 24, and I'm about to go up Bur-Omisace... though you won't know that bit, will you?). Heck, he's turning into my tank! Imagine that, Balthier as a tank!!


----------



## Overread

Its wrong wrong wrong !!
its my only big gripe with the game!
I mean how can you take away the guns -- next you will be taking away the airship!!


----------



## Lith

I found the sphere grid frustrating (though very pretty). So I preferred the license grid. And apparently I don't equate a character's job class with their _character_, because I've heard that complaint a lot about 12, but it never bothered me in the least. I was too busy taking the characters where I wanted them to go. I was more excited that all the characters could learn all the skills...

I ran with Balthier, Penelo, and Fran on longbows, and Basch (I like how violent his name sounds), Ashe and Vaan on swords (two-handed ones, when I could finally get them). I had a couple of pretty cool longbows. The guns were too slow, and this was probably the first game where I ran around leveling specifically to get money to buy better weapons for my party. Yeah, it's all about offensive power, because the best defense is, as they say, a good offense. And because the greatswords look so damn cool in action!

Bur-Omisace- I think that's the first place you can buy the, uh, whatever they're called's that raise your LP earned.


----------



## Cayal

James's 1UP Blog: More circumstantial evidence that an FFVII remake is en route to the PS3

More 'clues' to a FFVII remake.


----------



## Commonmind

I was convinced several years ago that an FFVII remake was something of an impossibility. The more Square-Enix shows it's invested in over-commercializing its franchises, however, the more I'm convinced a remake is actually a distinct, if not inevitable possibility. 

And while I'd usually raise my nose to such an obvious attempt at gouging, I don't know a fan of the Final Fantasy series on this planet who wouldn't kill to get their hands on FFVII in high-fidelity, myself included.


----------



## Cayal

I'd give up my first born for a remake...if I had a first born.


----------



## Lucien21

FFVII willl probably be released on the PSP2 or some hand held device in the future. Just like FF  1-6 are now on the GBA/DS/PSP


----------



## Cayal

Lucien21 said:


> FFVII willl probably be released on the PSP2 or some hand held device in the future. Just like FF  1-6 are now on the GBA/DS/PSP



Unlikely.


----------



## Cayal

Question on Final Fantasy VII

Cloud, Zach and Sephiroth are all intertwined with SOLDIER. How come throughout the entire game you never encounter a SOLDIER as an enemy or character or whatever. I figured they would have been deployed for any number of reasons.


----------



## Lith

Uh, I forget.  And I'm too lazy to replay it and find out.  Hadn't SOLDIER been disbanded or something... during Sephiroth's reign of terror?


----------



## Cayal

I don't remember.

While on the subject how come President Shinra knows Cloud as the one who left SOLDIER when he was never in SOLDIER.


--------

You know a game I'd like to see is a Devil May Cry style action game based on Sephiroth's rise through SOLDIER as one of the greatest. Imagine kicking ass with his Masamune sword.


----------



## Talysia

Good question about President Shinra. When I played it, I always thought he knew Cloud as a SOLDIER from his mako eyes, but not what his name was (rather he knew that someone with mako eyes had joined Avalanche).


----------



## Cayal

Talysia said:


> Good question about President Shinra. When I played it, I always thought he knew Cloud as a SOLDIER from his mako eyes, but not what his name was (rather he knew that someone with mako eyes had joined Avalanche).



He mentions he was the one who left or whatever.


On a side note, as anyone hear the One Winged Angel theme from Crisis Core. God I never get sick of that song, no matter the version.


----------



## Cayal

drool worthy

YouTube - final fantasy 7 crisis core genisis & sephiroth trailer


----------



## Thadlerian

Cayal said:


> Question on Final Fantasy VII
> 
> Cloud, Zach and Sephiroth are all intertwined with SOLDIER. How come throughout the entire game you never encounter a SOLDIER as an enemy or character or whatever. I figured they would have been deployed for any number of reasons.


You meet SOLDIERs in the Shinra Building in the first part of the game, and perhaps also in Junon(?), as random encounters. Third or second class. They have swords that resemble thin cones, IIRC.


----------



## Cayal

They're not very good then. I'll have to check it out when I re-play it.


----------



## Cayal

It's so weird playing Crisis Core. Sephiroth is a good guy (so far) but you know where he ends up and you know where Zach ends up. 

Getting a strange feeling about it all.


----------



## Talysia

I haven't played Crisis Core, but I remember feeling like that when I saw the FF7 anime - Last Order - for the first time. I enjoyed watching it, and whilst it was good to see the scenes that had only been hinted at in the game (flashbacks and such) it felt a little odd.


----------



## Commonmind

I think part of that sense of detachment has to do with the fact that, despite popular belief, FF7's storyline and characterization simply wasn't that cohesive or fleshed out. 

It seems odd or out of place because to a certain degree the original characters were rather contrived and shallow and those we're getting to know now through other mediums have considerably more depth. As well as there being a really poor connection between plots due to, as I said above, a lack of cohesion in the original plot.


----------



## kaneda

Cayal said:


> Question on Final Fantasy VII
> 
> Cloud, Zach and Sephiroth are all intertwined with SOLDIER. How come throughout the entire game you never encounter a SOLDIER as an enemy or character or whatever. I figured they would have been deployed for any number of reasons.



You do encouter SOLDIER has enemies, I don't think you encounter first class SOLDIER, but you definately do encounter second class SOLDIER.


----------



## kaneda

Talysia said:


> Good question about President Shinra. When I played it, I always thought he knew Cloud as a SOLDIER from his mako eyes, but not what his name was (rather he knew that someone with mako eyes had joined Avalanche).



Yup, he knows he was in SOLDIER because of the mako eyes.  He calls him "the one who left", and I assume that he thinks that because Cloud is now with the enemy


----------



## kaneda

Cayal said:


> drool worthy
> 
> YouTube - final fantasy 7 crisis core genisis & sephiroth trailer



OMG.  I actually NEED to play that.

Gaddam you Square enix! Why can't all the games be released on the PS2.  Now I need a PSP!


----------



## Cayal

^ I got a PSP just for the game. It doesn't fail.

That full cut scene is amazing though.


----------



## WriterDoug

I do not intend to play Core Crisis, but I did watch the ending on Youtube about 4-5 months ago.  

I agree with whomever says it must be awkward playing a game in which you know the outcome (at least the important points of such outcome.)

Also, anyone who is a total die-hard Final Fantasy VII fan will remember from the original game that Cloud and Zack were trapped in Nibelheim and used as experiments and that Zack was later shot during their escape.

One had to actually return to the laboratory at a certain point in the game and read the research notes in the basement.  It is pretty easy to miss.



Cheers,
WD


----------



## Cayal

Commonmind said:


> I think part of that sense of detachment has to do with the fact that, despite popular belief, FF7's storyline and characterization simply wasn't that cohesive or fleshed out.
> 
> It seems odd or out of place because to a certain degree the original characters were rather contrived and shallow and those we're getting to know now through other mediums have considerably more depth. As well as there being a really poor connection between plots due to, as I said above, a lack of cohesion in the original plot.



I don't find it odd.

It's more a strange feeling, a grief that you know here was once a good guy and you know he's going bad.


----------



## Thadlerian

Just started playing Final Fantasy IX for the first time. Not much to say about it yet, but aestethically, it's far more pleasant than FFVIII, with warmer colours and settings. The characters also seem very promising: When I'm done, my favourite FF character will be either Vivi or Steiner.


----------



## Commonmind

I believe, and this has a lot to do with the timing of the release, FFIX is extremely underrated and underplayed. It had some really memorable and likable characters and while the story may have suffered from the usual  nearing-the-end-of-the-game-must-now-confuse-players-so-they-don't-finish-too-early-and-are-left-thinking-"seriously?" SE earmarks, I definitely had a nice sense of...awww...when the credits rolled.


----------



## Commonmind

Cayal said:


> I don't find it *odd.*
> 
> It's more a *strange* feeling, a grief that you know here was once a good guy and you know he's going bad.



Main Entry:  *strange* Part of Speech:  _adjective_ 1 Definition:  deviating Synonyms:  aberrant, abnormal, astonishing, astounding, atypical, bizarre, curious, different, eccentric, erratic, exceptional, extraordinary, fantastic, far-out*, funny, idiosyncratic, ignorant, inexperienced, irregular, marvelous, mystifying, new, newfangled*, *odd,* oddball*, off, offbeat*, out-of-the-way*, outlandish, peculiar, perplexing, quaint, queer, rare, remarkable, singular, unaccountable, unaccustomed, uncanny, uncommon, unfamiliar, unheard of, unseasoned, unusual, weird, wonderful


----------



## Thadlerian

Okay, I've just reached Lindblum after watching the airship cutscenes... I just found out that I LOVE this game!


----------



## Overread

Yes those airship cutscenes are wonderful - and so detailed!
nothing is missed by square!


----------



## Lith

Oy, commonmind! I hope you feel better after what must have been a workout for your keyboard! 

FF9 was okay. I liked it when I played it. Thought it was prettier than FF7 and FF8, though it lacked that indefinable _something_ that others have had. 

And Vivi was my favorite.


----------



## Commonmind

Almost every iteration of Final Fantasy has been a hodgepodge of technological and traditional Fantasy elements. The fact that FF9 lacked that to a great degree probably has a lot to do with both why it felt very different and why it didn't appeal to the core FF audience. Those blending of elements create a theme that weaves through the entire series, without it it's difficult to relate to a title as being a part of the franchise.

And though it did lack those ubiquitous themes, I think it definitely gained a definable _something_ that other titles in the series hadn't had for a long time...charm.


----------



## Lith

For me, it was something missing in the characters and plot (which is the biggest draw for me to the games, anyway). Not anything I can define very well, and perhaps has something to do with the relatively high "critter factor" of the characters, but I wouldn't say that's quite it either. I rather liked the lack of technology- that's one of my gripes about some of the others, is that the fantasy factor is too low and they're too "real world". 

But it may have affected its mass appeal...


----------



## Commonmind

I can definitely see where you're coming from - the plot never felt quite epic enough (at least in the sense we're used to with Square-Enix games). Other titles tended to instill a sense of urgency in the player as the game reached its climax and headed toward it's inevitable conclusion; I never really felt that way while playing FF9. I almost felt as if I playing a really fun, 3D choose-your-own-adventure ( and that's not a bad thing in my book  ).


----------



## Sylvetra_Snake

I never really liked Final Fantasy 9.  It just didnt have zing.  Sorry but no zing.  Everything was so lollipopified (a new word and you are welcome to use it lol).

FF8 was hardcore with war and love in the heart of it and plenty of baddies to fight.  FF7 was great but i am in two minds whether or not i think Crisis Core was great.  I liked the game don't get me wrong but i think they could have done a lot more.

FF10 was the only one i cried at, right at the end when Tidus dies.  I don't cry much, i grumble so that was something good there.  I have played the Snes versions on the playstation, and i think FF4 was the best, the one with Cecil as the main character.

I liked FF12 because of its vastness, yet at the same time, i felt the characters lost some of their colour from this move.  I wonder what FF13 has in store...!


----------



## Commonmind

Sylvetra_Snake said:


> I never really liked Final Fantasy 9.  It just didnt have zing.  Sorry but no zing.  Everything was so lollipopified (a new word and you are welcome to use it lol).
> 
> FF8 was hardcore with war and love in the heart of it and plenty of baddies to fight.  FF7 was great but i am in two minds whether or not i think Crisis Core was great.  I liked the game don't get me wrong but i think they could have done a lot more.
> 
> FF10 was the only one i cried at, right at the end when Tidus dies.  I don't cry much, i grumble so that was something good there.  I have played the Snes versions on the playstation, and i think FF4 was the best, the one with Cecil as the main character.
> 
> I liked FF12 because of its vastness, yet at the same time, i felt the characters lost some of their colour from this move.  I wonder what FF13 has in store...!



Always make sure that, though the discussion is obviously geared towards fans of the franchise, you warn before posting spoilers. Believe it or not there are folks out there who may have been waiting to play certain titles whom may be upset by having very pivotal plot points disclosed.


----------



## Thadlerian

Commonmind said:


> Always make sure that, though the discussion is obviously geared towards fans of the franchise, you warn before posting spoilers. Believe it or not there are folks out there who may have been waiting to play certain titles whom may be upset by having very pivotal plot points disclosed.


Yep.

Anyway, interesting point: Have anyone else here noticed that, compared to FFVI, VII and VIII, all the monsters in FFIX are _scary_? That is, they don't frighten me, but I find them all disturbing in some way or another. In the previous games, you would always find lots of weird- and harmless-looking monsters (like those bikers outside Midgar in FFVII)


----------



## Sephiroth

Wow, I've missed a _ton _of discussion in here.  





Hmm, there are always some silly ones, Thadlerian, I'll give you that...but what about the 'Unknown' monsters in the sunken Gelnika in VII?  Those things are _horrible_, I've always found them a bit disturbing.  The one that whacks you with its giant tongue, I mean. ewww........... 







It's a good point about the spoilers, btw.  Which means that I won't say what I was going to say about IX at the moment, because even though it isn't technically a spoiler and doesn't deal with the story, I don't want to say *anything* about the later stages of a game that some of us here are playing and enjoying right now.  

Besides which, I've said it before.  





But for every agreement, there's a disagreement.  You'll never get me to admit that the story in VII was anything other than _fantastic_, CM.


----------



## Commonmind

I can't promise I won't try to, from time to time.


----------



## Sephiroth

Then you have the patience of a saint, old chap.  I admire that.


----------



## Commonmind

I hang my halo from my horns


----------



## Lith

Uh, didn't notice that in 9.  I DID notice the monsters in the basement of the Shinra mansion were exeptionally creepy.  Especially that guy with the great blade as his lower half and the Yin/Yang thing.  

I thought Yunalesca was rather creepy, too.  

Yeah, don't spoil it that _____ dies, and that _____ is a ____ __ ___ _____, or that ______ is really a _____ that _____ a long time ago.  All of which I ran into on the internet before played any FF.  Which is perhaps why I haven't cried while playing any of them.  Fortunately in FF12, one rumor I heard _didn't_ come true.  For once.


----------



## Mithridelle

Am I the only one that got a little freaked out when they first got a look at Kuja's harem dancer look? Scared me right into a box, that one did.


----------



## Lith

No.  I'm not convinced Kuja's a male at all, but a woman who wants to be a man by dressing like a woman.

Or something.


----------



## Commonmind

A Shemalemanefeme'?


----------



## Talysia

Yes, I had my doubts about Kuja, too...  Definitely one of the more interesting FF villains, although I remember thinking he could have been better used as a character.


----------



## Cayal

I like how his Silver Dragon was Green.


----------



## Thadlerian

I was thinking of summing up my thought on Final Fantasy. So, here's a post I wrote at another forum (the xkcd forum):



			
				Thadlerian said:
			
		

> Final Fantasy... where to start?
> 
> With the good stuff: The music. If I were to mention one reason only for getting into FF, it would be the music. Heavy, epic, emotional themes that surpass most of what you hear in movies. That one thing all the FF games I've played have in common: The adorable tracks that I can listen to over and over. Crossing Those Hills, Terra's Theme (map, Awakening, and intro), Shadow as rendered in the end theme, FFVII main, Tifa, Aerith, Jenova, Anxious Heart, Balamb Garden, Eyes on Me, Silence and Motion (yeah, I think this theme is brilliant), and so on.
> 
> I only started getting into FF a couple of years ago. But I had been thinking of it for years before that, ever since being invited to my friend's place to watch him beat Ultimecia in FFVIII. I remembered wicked-sounding names like Squall, Zell and Quistis; the Lion Hearts, and the setting - the way it seemed to alternate between mundane and ethereal, seamlessly from actual to metaphorical fighting. They didn't merely beat up a bad guy - it was a battle of soul and emotion and ideas, against an enemy who threatened something profound and infinite. Doing what no computer game or movie or story at all had ever done - it was as if someone had peeked into my dreams and written a game on what they had seen. After that, it was repeatedly watching this old AMV - which just confirmed what I had seen earlier. Those hi-tech ships jumping all over the place, the antenna, that wicked dragon-like spaceship breaking into that cyberpunkish structure, noble men, beautiful women - all under this unreal sheen of dreamlikeness.
> 
> The first game I got to play was FFVII. I really wanted VIII, but VII was available, and everyone said it was great. Reading reviews sure put me in the right atmosphere: Names like Cloud, Aerith, AVALANCHE and the evil corporation Shin-Ra. Not to metion that I had actually seen a glimpse of FFVII in a book. A book about design, with FFVII listed alongside Things To Come and Le Corbusier. A hi-res picture of Midgar with all its Mako reactors blazing violent green. I expected a return to the state I had seen from my short glimpses of FFVIII - to be swept away into that mysterious world of indefinite technology and magic and concepts and emotions. Golden the ship was - Oh! Oh! Oh!
> 
> It turned out to be a cartoon.
> 
> FFVII wasn't really that bad in the beginning. Sure, you had Barret yelling #¤&%!!!, and Cloud doing that helpless shrug of his, and Biggs (or Wedge?) running around like a Humpty Dumpty with his behind on fire. But there were haunting moments as well. The Climb to the upper levels. And Shin-Ra Tower. I remember the endless stairs, telling myself that when I had just climbed these stairs, the game would finally open up to me. And, for a moment, it almost did.
> 
> But then they left Midgar, and the whole thing just collapsed. There were still cool and unreal scenes, of course: The Zolom impaled by Sepiroth, the sun in your face as you cross the Corel mountains, the Golden Saucer, Cosmo Canyon, and that petrified city. But nothing of that could conceal the cartoonish characters, or, worse, the horribly trite dialogue. It was like listening to monkeys who had been taught to speak words. Whenever they discussed concepts, they were helpless, and when talking about feelings, it was like reading Megatokyo. The random battles bringing you enemies like huge flying rabbits, motorcycle thugs with long arms. The utterly mundane world. The summons - this is where the setting really starts breaking apart. Shiva, Ifrit, Odin, the Knights of the... Round Table? WTF? What do these beings of Earth mythology have to do with the world of FFVII? Hard to tell - it's never explained. Nothing that was related to the actual gameplay - Materia, Summons, monsters (why am I fighting this Jenova thing? Why does Sephiroth have the appearance of an angel with one wing?) - had anything to do with the story. It was as if storywriters and game designers were sitting on different planets.
> 
> So, let's abandon the FFVII of my dreams and concentrate on what is. It's a good game. The story, for all its faults, is engaing and complex, the characters are good - they have their own ways of talking and their own ways of moving. There are FMVs, there is a general game set up for you to meticulously conquer... and there is Nobou Uematsu's stunning music. Compared to other games I've played, Final Fantasy VII remains one of the greatest.
> 
> Moving on to FFVIII, the object of my dreams. Huge disappointment. I'm replaying the game in these very days, and it seems I had actually managed to forget quite how horrible the story of this game is. Some of the plot holes are of dimensions allowing for the Ragnarok to fly through (consider for instance Rinoa falling from Balamb, getting a hold onto the cliff wall - and remaining hanging there for ages, while Squall and crew run here and there, and the doctor decides he should hold a speech before rescuing her, and the Gardens collide massively, and Squall fights these dudes, and she's still hanging on when he finally arrives to resque her). The game is riddled with these; my disbelief isn't merely de-suspended: It is savagely blasted out of the sky in a rain of blood-soaked feathers. And even if you disregard the plot holes, the story is still awful. Now, I'm a real sucker for a good love story, but that requires some sense of equality between the lovers. The story of FFVIII can be summed up as follows:
> 
> 1. Rinoa is rescued by Squall.
> 2. Repeat the above.
> 
> Again and again Squall has to rescue this utterly useless girl from the problems she gets into because of her complete inability to take care of herself. No way I'm going to accept their love story. I cannot root for a guy I'm forced to sympathise with (after all, I'm playing him) to win a girl whom I find totally disgusting.
> 
> To make matters worse, FFVIII compares badly to many aspects of FFVII. The whole colour scheme - going from VII to VIII feels like stepping out of Eden to find yourself in the Gobi Desert. The colours feel like sand in your mouth, the game is too pale or too yellow or too brown or too grey - never mind the exponentially higher FMV quality. And then there's the music. Refer to the YouTube FMV I pointed out earlier in this post. When playing the Dollet mission in the real game, the music, which in the FMV was perfect for the setting, clashed horribly. It was this half-serious plink-plonk midi. Nothing wrong with midi; the music still lacked all nerve, all sense of importance. That's what the whole game is like. There are only three tracks I like: Balamb Garden, Eyes on Me and Silence and Motion. From FFVII, I can name at least 30.
> 
> But there is good stuff too. The characters are, as I mentioned, a mixed blessing, but those who are good, are good. Zell, Irvine, Selphie - completely fruitcake, all of them. And wonderfully consistent. Whenever they enter the scene, it's a real show - Zell losing his temper with Seifer, Selphie dancing around talking and gesturing about blowing stuff up, and Irvine generally being Irvine. Also, where FFVII remained rooted to the mundane soil, FFVIII at least attempts to get off the ground and grasp for those divine layers I dreamed of. The parade, the Lunatic Pandora, and the greatest ship in the history of storytelling: The Ragnarok. Not to mention, of course, Laguna's sequence in Deling, where you first get to encounter Deling's wondrously creepy buses. I loved those buses!
> 
> But still, a major letdown.
> 
> So, this far, had I learned anything about the nature of the Final Fantasy games? Did I still cling to the hope that FF would hand me my dreams? Well, I almost got there:
> 
> Enter limited SNES 3D technology.
> Enter snow.
> Enter three MagiTech armours.
> Enter Nobou Uematsu's tear-jerking, intensely beautiful Terra's Theme (from my limited understanding of music, I consider the intro scene version this theme to be completely perfect).
> 
> Almost there, but then the sequence ended, and from there on the game generally followed the path of VII and VIII: Cheesy dialogue mixed with a mundane and physical story I couldn't really relate much too. I think the game has too many characters; there is simply not enough room for any of them to develop more than a rudimentary expression of individual characteristics - moods, fighting styles, etc, plus a couple of pre-story events - pretty much like reading one of Steven Erikson's Malazan Books of the Fallen. Again, many scenes with merit (especially taking into account the limited conveying technology of the SNES) - Doma and the ghost train, the Opera, Celes and Cid, Locke and Rachel - but a meritless story. Like in the previously mentioned games: A mad villain achieves godlike appearance and powers - and the moral imperative for the heroes to defeat him/her.
> 
> I've played a little FFIX too. Lindblum was a gift, and, prior to that, Vivi's confrontation with Black Waltz turned out to be the best scene in Final Fantasy so far. But I haven't got further than to CD 2 somewhere, and can't really say much about it. Only that, on the one hand, Vivi and Steiner seem to me to be very likeable characters, and Freya and Quina intrigue me, while on the other hand, the sexualization of child-like characters rather freaks me out. I'm not sure whether I will return to the game.
> 
> 
> So, basically, that's my toughts on FF. FFVII > FFVI > FFVIII, with FFIX uncertain. But none of them remotely fulfilling. Nothing I've seen in Final Fantasy has touched me similarly to what I've seen in movies like The City of Lost Children or Pan's Labyrinth, or read in books like The Golden Compass or Earthsea.
> 
> If my judgement of these games seem unduly harsh, keep in mind my particular case of relative deprivation. I expected extraordinary, divine greatness... and got video games, plain and simple.
> 
> So... do you folks think would I have anything to gain from completing FFIX or getting FFX and/or FFXII?


Pretty long-winded, huh? Well, since the quote doesn't include links, the AMV in question is this one.


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## Dramagirl

I just recently re-played FFVII as it will always remain my favourite of the series. 

Apart from the wonderful indepth storylines, I love the music most of all, I have soundtracks 7 through to 10-2. 

It was the first time I ever played a game where I actually cared about what happened to the characters involved.


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## Talysia

Oh, I definitely agree about it being the first game where I cared about what happened to the characters.  Previous to FFVII, I'd only played snes RPGs before (out of the ones that were released in the UK, at least), and they didn't capture my imagination the way the FF series did.  They introduced me to some of the best music and mini games in gaming, too.


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## Cayal

Final Fantasy VII was the first RPG I ever played. It stuck with me as the best game I ever played (until Metal Gear Solid 4).

Both Final Fantasy VII and Metal Gear Solid 4 I cared for the characters. Probably the only two games I found myself caring about.


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## Lioness

Final Fantasy X is the only game I've played to any real length...and I didn't end up finishing it because I don't have a playstation and was playing at my friends. She is a control freak when it comes to playing Final Fantasy, so I gave up even trying to play because she'd sit there and tell me what to do, and insult me when I didn't do what she thought I should do and died because of it...and I just got sick of it.

Anyway, I really enjoyed it, got up to Gagazet mountain or something like that. I loved the battle system...one of the reasons why I couldn't play VIII when I tried was because I was taking overly long to navigate around the menus...I had a vague idea of what I wanted to do...I just couldn't find my way around the menu! So I got killed before I did any significant damage. At least with X I got a chance to think, breathe, and then act. I know it's not realistic, but it's a lot less stress on someone like me who is terrible at most video games.

I really enjoyed the character development, music, graphics...just about everything really. If I ever end up getting a PS2, it'l be the first game I buy.

I've sort of played FFXII, but only enough to get some idea of the gameplay.
I don't mind the battle system in that, but having said that...I didn't get far enough to encounter any major battles or confusing menus. I was pretty much just fighting rats somewhere.
My first impression of it was good though.


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## Lith

Thadlerian- do you play many other RPGs? I've found, for all their flaws, the FF games are a cut above the others in story depth. Or maybe they resonate for some reason with me- I read plenty of synopses of other games, and few of them sound at all interesting. 

I recommend both X and XII. XII's my favorite videogame of all time, but it's love it/hate it. In fact, all the FFs are love it/hate it. XII's story is a little shorter, but the overall package of gameplay, world development, and plausibility is the best. That is, if you don't find giant war chickens and magic floating crystals implausible. The translation's a bit better too.  And a more classical score.

FF7- cliched, yeah, but also interesting. It's so off the wall, sometimes literally! One of the reasons I don't want to see a remake is that it would ruin some of the unintentional humor in the bad translations and the contrast between these spritely polygons and their angsty babble. 

FF8- meh, I'm forgetting a lot of details. I remember being pleased the at the improvement in graphics (really, is there any worse looking game than FF7? Starfox, maybe...), and confused at the overall storyline. But then, I didn't quite finish it and haven't found time and ambition to replay it. 

FF10's got a pretty good story and is a better overall game than FF7, but as with a lot of Japanese stuff, it devolves into some strange and incomprehensible stuff at the end. I don't like the music in the game, either.

I'd rate them rather higher than HDM and Earthsea, but to each their own, I guess... Story and language DO tend to take the backseat in videogames. Getting better, but my conclusion is that it's something most gamers don't care much about...


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## the smiling weirwood

I don't think video games as a medium have matured enough for it to be reasonable to expect the things you were talking about, Thadlerian. It is a very young genre, but if you pay attention you can see the signs that it is maturing. The creative base is growing older, and as the people who first made and played video games become more mature they are finding they want to make games that deliver more than pretty colors and cheap thrills. I am personally very excited by the promises of games like Fable 2, the developers swear that they will bring you emotion, and I look forward to finding that kind of meaning in a place where once the best you could hope for was disappointment or maybe adrenaline.

Anyway, I've always had an immense fondness for the FF series. My especial favorite  was FF6,  or FF3 as released in America.


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## Armadillo-002

Mine is FF VIII, most of the characters (except Rinoa, who really gets me on my nerves). I liked the junction system, the rivalry between Squall and Seifer is good. The GF's are good with their abilites, the music through out is the most haunting I've heard (esp the opening). I do think Kudja is not used as often enough in IX as a villian. I also do feel that Seifer is not used that well, as a rival he is more like a road-block to Squall than a rival.


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## Cayal

Rumor of a big Final Fantasy VII announcement coming, hope it is the remake.


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## Overread

would have thought they would have waited till releasing FFXIII before announcing another FF game on that line of consoles


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## Cayal

I am 99.9% certain they will remake FFVII for the PS3. However I don't expect them to announce it now, not when it is going to be at least 3 years away.


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## Commonmind

I agree Cayal. It's coming, and I believe FFVII: The Remake is going to be the (pardon the pun) phoenix that raises SE from its stagnant ashes. At least, I think it's going to regenerate some interest -- which is rather ironic considering the source material is a decade old. 

Either way, it will be a good thing for both fans and the creative brain behind SE, and I'm guessing it will do exactly what the original FFVII did for the Playstation generation -- lead to a plethora of solid, triple-A titles; a resurgence of the genre.


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## Overread

I can't see how a remake will lift SR from stagnet ashes -- being as its not that stagnent at the moment. Infact whilst I agree that they have lost a little polish on their games I think they are broadning out and trying new things - the early FF games were very much the same basic concept with a story over the top of them - not bad and their stories were very good, but gameplay was starting to stagnate and I think its right for them to try new things - granted they have had some problems - sphere grid was a good concept, but overly difficult to control or navigate - new skill system corrected that, but was too open and free


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## Commonmind

They've either been rehashing old ideas/gimmicks or creating multiple iterations of the same franchise for quite some time now. There are a handful of FFXIII titles in development (that we know of; the possibility for more is always lurking), a handful of Kingdom Hearts titles, on several platforms, and an entire slew of remakes in the works. 

SE is the very definition of stagnant. Granted they were two separate development companies during the Playstation era, but there were far more new, interesting games coming to market with the Squaresoft and Enix labels in those days. Rarely would you see titles that were related to one another, if only thematically or to draw lines between similar styles being used by a particular producer/director.

It's not the polish I find lacking, it's the creativity. The only broadening they're doing is within franchises which are already established. Pretty soon, like an old glove, they'll have shoved too much in and they'll find the seams bursting.

Look at their list of games for each platform. Over a period of three years the Playstation was literally flooded with titles when compared to the PS2. The PS3 and 360 are looking to be relatively barren during their respective lifespans as well.

Of course, it's subjective, but this is one opinion I'll remain firm on. The SE of today is a shadow of its former self, and even the president of the company has admitted to that. I'm hoping FFVII will invigorate them, because while we may disagree, they are definitely in need of some new IP's.


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## Armadillo-002

The weapon disscussion is a good topic, mine's the gunblade, now this is funny but the ragnarok has always caught my imagination and kind of knocks the ultima weapon off, but I still regard it as 1 of the best weapon around in the FF series.


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## Sephiroth

Oh, the Ultima Weapon kicks the backside off of anything else, IMO.  It's just so _cool_.  But all the ultimate weapons in FFX are great.  'Break Damage Limit' was one of the best things that ever happened to me (yes, in my entire life ).  


I agree about the stangancy thing.  To me, it feels like every title from VIII onwards has been an attempt to rekindle former glory (which has fallen short every time, for one reason or another...or for several).  At first I thought "Well, it's unfair to expect them to recreate the perfection that is VII', but now, I do believe that it's down to a lack of real innovation.  

This might surprise anyone who knows me, but I'm not actually that excited about the idea of a remake.  I'm more worried.  What if they change something and I don't like it?  What if the music isn't the same?  What if they go and mess up the best game ever made (IMO) in an attempt to revive their flagging fortunes?

The only thing wrong with the original FFVII was that it lasted 50 hours rather than 500.

But how would it feel embarking upon a FF adventure already knowing how it was going to end?  Knowing that you'd done it all before in the _real _game....I dunno.....

I'd rather they just remastered the real game and did NOTHING stupid with it.  Just update the look of it and make the fights harder, and let us play again....

Hmm.

I'm rambling now.........?



And listen, one of these days I'm going to post a 10,000 word dissertation on why the story of FFVII _does _make sense, and _is _the best storyline ever...all the more so for the scope it allows the player's imagination.  

I mean, before Advent Children, it was even possible to take it that {SPOILER}the Lifestream had destroyed humankind as part of the 'sickness' affecting the planet. {SPOILER} _ That _was genius, and although I enjoyed the movie, in a way I wish they had left it like that.



This is the problem with my plan.  If I make such a post, it'll have to be all in white.


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## Commonmind

I say go for it; you know I'll be there to offer an opposing point of view. 

As for the remake. I have to admit it's a bit of both for me as well. I want an updated FFVII, but I have similar reservations. 

I've discussed this before, but unlike yourself Seph, I find the game's mechanics and pacing, and phenomenal gameplay -- and not its story - to be the reason I love the title so much. 

Elements such as those can get lost in translation when a development team decides to revisit the source material, possibly adding to it where they feel the game lacks -- inadvertently making the experience more superfluous; or taking away from and editing elements which they may have deemed unnecessary -- areas of the game which I've grown to love or find just quirky enough to be considered part of its charm. 

It could get messy!  But, as with all things SE, no matter what they do (if they do it) there will be fans on two sides of the fence. Half of us are going to love what they've done, and the other half -- the purists -- are going to hate it. A good example of this is if they change the story to suffice what I would find more appealing, while conversely making it something you find somewhat displeasing. 

Bah, now I'm ranting too!


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## Mithridelle

I have to agree with Sephy on a few points.

Yes, Ultima Weapon was the greatest (although I got it as soon as I could so its 'no materia growth' annoyed the hell out of me) Also yes, the break damage limit was insane. It killed the strongest monsters and bosses in a few hits at most.

Do it Sephy! I'm sure that we would all like to hear your point of veiw on FFVII's story. It made sense to me though...

I am going to be fine with the remake, because I understand that while things are probably going to get skewed and messed with (probably to focus on high graphics and what-not) it is onlya remake and not the original. The remake could not surpass it in my mind and I shall remain dedicated to the original.
I just worry that the music will be messed with, the tiny details that make up the game will be lost in the bigger picture and that they will cut out great small scenes that totally take away what makes FFVII the best FF game.
And the original FFVII was such a step forward in the world of RPG graphics.

*le sigh*

We could go on forever about this topic...


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## Commonmind

Alas Mithridelle, we already have


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## Mithridelle

Indeed. The remake gets any FFVII fans heart a flutter...

For better or for worse is up to them.


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## Commonmind

Aye, very true.


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## Cayal

Why you all talking like Scottish folk?


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## Mithridelle

Not everyone, just Commonmind.


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## Cayal

Mithridelle said:


> Not everyone, just Commonmind.



Well you did *le sigh*. Why you emoting in french?


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## Mithridelle

An odd habit of mine. Try not to let it bother you too much, alright?


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## Commonmind

Cayal said:


> Why you all talking like Scottish folk?



I had haggis this morning. That's my excuse.


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## Lucien21

Are you enjoying the airflow from your new Kilt?

Their's a moose loose aboot this hoose.


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## Thadlerian

Lith said:


> Thadlerian- do you play many other RPGs? I've found, for all their flaws, the FF games are a cut above the others in story depth.


I've played Knights of the Old Republic one and two. One had a fair storyline, except for the trite Bastila love affair. The second was abysmal. I find that with game storylines, I have to use a certain amount of goodwill to convince myself that I've been moved. I mean, Kharak in Homeworld and Saavedro in Myst 3 send chills down my spine, but at the same time I know they're all package and no content.

Same with FFVII, in which I found the most moving content to be Barret's confrontation with Dyne, as well as Cid's memory of the rocket launch, and Sierra's (it was mistranslated Shera) role in it.


> I'd rate them rather higher than HDM and Earthsea, but to each their own, I guess...


Yeah, I guess. I can hardly imagine games catching up with even mediocre books in at least a few decades. As for getting to _His Dark Materials_ or _Earthsea_ level - millenniae. Seriously.

Doesn't mean I'll stop playing FF, though 
I'm replaying FFVIII with minimal leveling, and will move on to IX again afterwards to restart (lost my game save). Later I will borrow a PS2 and see if I can find X and XII second-hand. I'm still willingly harbouring high illusions about FFX, what with those cutscenes and the amazing Zanarkand theme


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## Sephiroth

Your original post was interesting, Thadlerian.  I agree with some of what you say about FFVII, and some of it I disagree with.  I'll be posting my own thoughts on the story soon enough.  


With regard to the wider point about books vs. video games, though -- isn't it an unfair comparison?  

IMO, even a fantastic movie struggles to stand up to a mediocre book.  I'm not sure it's a case of 'catching up', so much as it's a case of the media involved, and for the time being, I'd say movies are a fairer comparison.  Or perhaps games fall somewhere in between?  

Having said that, the scope of the interactive experience offered by games these days, with potentially hundreds of hours of gameplay, should perhaps mean that more can be achieved.  But books aren't written by massive teams of people working for large corporations, they're written by artists.  Yeah, or hacks, but you get the point...

So I'm not sure that video games will ever be able to offer an experience that compares favourably with reading a good book in terms of depth and nuance of plot, characterisation, etc.  At least, not in the current creative climate.  



X is a really good game.  Like the others, it has its flaws, some of them serious, but I'd heartily recommend it.  And yes, the music is wonderful.  Nobuo's last goodbye.... *sniff*

I shall say no more than that, but I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.  





(As for XII...._meh_.  But I'll let you make up your own mind there.)


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## Cayal

Oh my god.

X SUCKED. It was just horrible.

XII rates close to VII

My opinion


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## Commonmind

I think any comparisons being drawn between the different entertainment mediums is rather unfair.

Of course it's difficult for a book to deliver the same type of depth of character, or complexity of plot as a film. But than a book can't evoke the same types of emotions one experiences while watching the look in a man's eyes when he knows he's going to die; while seeing the unspoken attraction of two people, staring at one another across a room; a novel's themes cannot be portrayed through the use of color, as Stanley Kubrick sometimes told his stories -- and which novel can recreate those scenes from the Godfather that used cinematography and a simple score to bring a man to tears.

It's often said that a film does not do a novel justice, and too often it's forgotten that film does something entirely different and that, to be truly enjoyed, it needs to be understood that it's a different medium altogether. Draw comparisons if you will, but I believe anyone who does so is selling themselves short, and missing out on a truly engaging experience by going into that experience with certain expectations, or rather, reservations, because they believe that film is inherently inferior because of the way its stories are told.

I don't believe games fall between the two, Seph, because I don't believe we can quantify entertainment mediums on a linearity, as if there's one experience placed "here" and one "here" and one "there." Because that almost insinuates that something is better, or worse, or average. Games can be evocative in ways movies and books cannot; they deliver an interactive experience, and when done well, they can cause a player to think in ways so different than if he were watching a film, or reading a book. There was a moment in Bioshock, that I can think of, where I actually made a decision based on my own moral structure and it made me feel good about myself; such a simple thing, but that is immeasurable -- I've never decided the outcome of a movie or made a choice that changed the experience of reading a book, and I've certainly never had to look inside myself and ask, "What kind of person am I, really? Do I kill this girl, or save her, and sacrifice the quality of my own survival?"


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## Sephiroth

I can't really argue with any of your points there, CM.  


I was looking at things too narrowly, considering mainly the superior ability of language to convey complex or nuanced themes/ideas.  Call it 'writer's bias' if you will.  ;p

But yes, each medium can do things that the others can't, and it is perhaps unfair to try and draw direct comparisons.  

(I take it 'book' and 'film' were supposed to be the other way around in your first sentence, though?)

A minor point -- a novel's themes _can _be portrayed through the use of colour, but admittedly not _wholly _through the use of colour...but such symbolism works in text, too (you just 'see' the colours in your mind, instead, and you have to be told about them).  


But yes, yet again, I pretty much agree with everything you've said.  Heh.  


Your final point is the most salient, I think, when it comes to thinking about what video games can offer that neither books nor movies can.  The interactive element makes 'you' the hero in a way that is simply impossible in the other media.  












Oh, and LOL, Cayal. 

Well, opinions are what makes the world go 'round, as they say.  

X is my third favourite after VII and VI (albeit a _looong _way behind those two).  I felt that the story was one of its weaker elements overall, but I loved the gameplay.  The fighting in X is the closest they've come to perfection, IMO.  And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, it was worth it for the Monster Arena and Dark Aeons alone.  

XII..._gah_.


----------



## Thadlerian

Sephiroth said:


> With regard to the wider point about books vs. video games, though -- isn't it an unfair comparison?


I don't think it is. I don't think good storytelling is a matter of format, it's more about what you do with what you have. There is no such thing as cheating in art, remember. You can make something profound with pink styrofoam if you just got a good idea. A computer game, with all its possibilities, should offer great opportunity, especially as linear a game as Final Fantasy.


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## Cayal

I think not either. Movies have a time limit. Books and games really don't. They have their own unique way of telling it but I think it is an apt comparison.


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## Lioness

Cayal said:


> Oh my god.
> 
> X SUCKED. It was just horrible.


 
Why is that?


----------



## Commonmind

> (I take it 'book' and 'film' were supposed to be the other way around in your first sentence, though?)



This is why I really need to start reading what I've written before I hit the post button. I type everything in the quick reply box and just let it all hang out, as the saying goes -- often to my detriment


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## Sephiroth

Thadlerian said:


> I don't think it is. I don't think good storytelling is a matter of format, it's more about what you do with what you have. There is no such thing as cheating in art, remember. You can make something profound with pink styrofoam if you just got a good idea. A computer game, with all its possibilities, should offer great opportunity, especially as linear a game as Final Fantasy.


 


Cayal said:


> I think not either. Movies have a time limit. Books and games really don't. They have their own unique way of telling it but I think it is an apt comparison.




Okay, okay, so it _is _fair to compare, but _not _directly (as CM pointed out, and at which Thadlerian has hinted).  

So, mind-bogglinglly, I can be wrong twice on the same subject, and from different sides of the debate?  



Maybe I, too, should consider what I'm posting before doing so?  ;p


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## Cayal

Lioness said:


> Why is that?



The lack of open environments.
The horrible, just horrible voice of Tidus. That laughing scene was an embarassment.
It was really just not interesting.


----------



## Sephiroth

Tidus' voice I give you.  Dire, just dire.  But seriously, Vaan and Penelo? 





The lack of open environments, well, it bothered me at first, and I will admit to wanting a world map and feeling that it was weird not having one.  But I got used to it, and later in the game it isn't such a big deal, once you get to the Calm Lands, and then once you have _other ways of getting around_.  

The game has good FMVs, good music, great fights, and the story only really begins to disappoint late on, IMO.


----------



## Commonmind

So, not to derail the current conversation, but what does everyone think of sacrificing the immersion one experiences while trekking across a linear environment which is proportionally correct to the character model (e.g., Final Fantasy X and XII) for the return of the world map, exploration and the satisfaction of freedom of movement?

I'm so torn on this that I'm glad someone else is making the decision for me at SE, but there are times I miss it, and times which I enjoy it not being there.


----------



## Sephiroth

Hmm.  

This is difficult for me, too, CM.  


I _do _miss the world map, and I felt that even in XII, the linear enviroments were a bit too small, and the world itself was _way _too small, with not enough places in it.  

So part of me says, "Give me back my world map."


But, at the same time, the realism of the immersive experience really adds something to the game, and I'm sure I'd be complaining that the world 'didn't feel real enough' otherwise.  So it's a difficult balancing act.  

Is there a way to have the best of both worlds, do you think?


----------



## Cayal

No, you'd have to have a massive, proportionate environment which would be near on impossible without sacrificing a lot of things, an even then probably still impossible. It's like mapping earth exactly as is and having the character run across it in the same time it would take a human to run across it.


----------



## Commonmind

I don't think it would be that difficult to strike a balance. Using FFXII as an example, there could've been a world map which one traversed on a rudimentary level, a la Lost Odyssey, to emulate the idea of freedom of movement, while adding a few areas which weren't necessarily tied to the game's linear progress, further driving away the notion that the world is much larger and expansive. These areas could've been grinding spots, places in which to complete sidequests, find rare monsters/spells/items/crafting materials, etc.

I mention Lost Odyssey only because it used a similar system and was, although somewhat shallow, fun to explore, bringing back a certain sense of nostalgia that was lost with the last few iterations of FF.


----------



## Sephiroth

I haven't played Lost Odyssey but I get what you are driving at, and it's sort of what I had in mind too.  

The fleshed-out, detailed linear environments could exist as 'hotspots' accessed via the wider world map.  Sort of like in X when you have the airship, but being able to land on the world map as well.  

That sense of exploration is definitely what is missing from the newer games, where you can't even go off in the wrong direction, and are always guided to wherever you are supposed to be going next.  



But I like Cayal's idea of mapping the earth exactly as it is, and having the character run across it in the same time it would take a human.  That sounds like my kind of game......


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## Commonmind

Definitely my kind of game as well. If only we had the technology and manpower to produce a 1:1 interactive experience. Maybe some day...


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## Sephiroth

This is getting way off topic (someone should really warn me), but I've been flying around in the flight sim on Google Earth, of all things.  

It does give you a sense of the proper scale of things.


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## Commonmind

Google Earth is too powerful. It must be stopped...

(this is me, not helping)


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## Sephiroth

I've had the same thought.  With this 'street view' thing they're doing now...


Fascinating to look at, though, you gotta admit?  Especially for those of us who create worlds...





(This is me, doing what I normally do.  )


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## Lith

Amazing thing, GoogleEarth.  Yet I still can't find a mile-wide hole in the ground while I'm on the ground, while clearly visible from the air (it's a long story...)

I hate the world map.  Almost as much as I hate random encounters.  Glad it's gone, hope it never comes back.  For those that want it, maybe some optional version, but NOT mandatory.  

Games can't afford to build environments at true human scale.  It would take far too long to traverse the world (btw, why does a game feel the need to have you traverse the ENTIRE world, anyway?), and you'd be forced to invent a faster form of travel, thereby destroying the sense of scale in the same world...

A game's storytelling potential is immense, but it's also a potential likely never to be explored in any real depth because of practical development limits.  I've yet to play a game and not feel the limits of it.  Books can go a little further in that direction, but still must generally be linear, again because of practical limits.  Anyone remember the "choose your own adventure" books?  And then there's the issue of free imagery a book provides, which games never can, but that's an entirely different matter...

I place FF above the aforementioned books largely because the stories resonate more, and I've spent MUCH more time contemplating them than the others, skill of the writers aside.


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## Cayal

A theory on SE event later this month and VII remake

Square-Enix DKÎ£3713 event this weekend kinda looks like Remake7 | Aeropause Games


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## MistingWolf

^^; I'm actually still working on playing FF VII... It's on my computer, and I really am not a fan of playing games on the computer. Wish it were on a disc for my playstation, but oh well. I would have to say that FF VIII and FF IX are my favorties. In VIII, I love the gunblades, and the Phoenix Pinion is awesome to have for the second-to-last battle before the final boss. It's been so long since I've played, though, that I can't remember the names x.X The characters are great, and I love how they develop throughout the game. Favorite summon? Hmm.... Mmboy, I can't remember ^^;

In IX, I really like how all the individual characters have their own small plot lines. Vivi's great, and Zidane's my favorite. For the summoning, I suppose it'd be the one with the wolf, though the name escapes me.

So far VII is great; Red XIII is my favorite so far. Gotta love the beasts ^^ Now if only there was a wolf character on the good side... Don't have many summons yet, so I can't claim a favorite.

In FF X, the summons are so sweet ^^ Bahamut is my favorite summon; it's so COOL! Next I suppose would be Ixion, then Ifrit, then Valefor. I've never gotten Anima or the sisters. Never really cared for Shiva.

Anyways, that's my ramble.


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## Overread

^^ we gots us anothe site wolf 
always good to have another one!

and yes FF does need more wolves on the good side!


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## Commonmind

Overread said:


> ^^ we gots us anothe site wolf
> always good to have another one!
> 
> and yes FF does need more wolves on the good side!



You're the only wolf for me, OR.


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## Cayal

Cloud Says: New FFVII Compilation Game On The Way? - News - Final Fantasy Union

Let the rumours begin.


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## Cayal

I just bought Final Fantasy Advent Children Complete on Blu-Ray from ebay.


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## Commonmind

Let me know how it is. I'd like to hear a personal opinion; reading the reviews leaves me wondering how much of what I'm reading is fan-gushing.


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## Sephiroth

Wow, the old thread returns...  Awesome!  


I was torn on Advent Children, I must admit.  I've probably said this before (...I've probably said just about everything I think about FFVII before... ;p), but I was initially disappointed to hear that they'd made a 'sequel'.  I think the way the original game ends is great.  The scene after the end credits have rolled is another example of something I think the game did well, which is to leave certain aspects of the story up to the player's interpretation.  

One thought that crossed my mind was that...



Spoiler



...during the cleansing of the planet by the Lifestream that results from Sephiroth's defeat, human beings are a part of the 'disease' the must be removed in order to safeguard the planet's future...so that in 500 years' time, Nanaki/Red XIII and his descendants are the only sapient beings still around...[END SPOILER].  This ties in with something Bugenhagen says at one point, and I found the idea intriguing.

The very existence of a sequel took away that possibility, and I _liked _the uncertainty of not knowing what was intended by the ending.


Having said that, I liked the film.  Visually, and in terms of being able to see characters/locations from my favourite-ever video game, I _loved _it.  As for the story itself, there are elements I like, and some I'm not so keen on.  The cynical part of me feels like it was mainly an exercise to cash in on the enormous popularity of the original game, but at the same time, I can't say I didn't enjoy it.  And after the _huuuuge _disappointment of the Spirits Within movie -- which to me, had _nothing _to do with Final Fantasy, and didn't merit the appellation -- I was satisfied with it...and relieved.  It treats the original story with respect.  

Perhaps it was unnecessary, but overall, I think that for any fan of FFVII, it's worth a watch.


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## Cayal

Commonmind said:


> Let me know how it is. I'd like to hear a personal opinion; reading the reviews leaves me wondering how much of what I'm reading is fan-gushing.



I assume you haven't seen the DVD version?


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## Sephiroth

I assumed that too.  Else, what's he asking? _ "Does it look prettier in 1080p?"_


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## Commonmind

I have, several times, but I was under the impression there were additional scenes and features as well, the former helping to tie up some plot holes.


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## Cayal

Commonmind said:


> I have, several times, but I was under the impression there were additional scenes and features as well, the former helping to tie up some plot holes.



There is 26 minutes of extra footage. I'll let you know my thoughts once I get it and watch it (hopefully before the weekend)


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## Commonmind

Sweet 

If it's any good I may be compelled to grab the import, so I can play that demo that keeps taunting me from the shelves of Playasia.


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## Cayal

Commonmind said:


> Sweet
> 
> If it's any good I may be compelled to grab the import, so I can play that demo that keeps taunting me from the shelves of Playasia.



I got the US version. No demo but it is in English.


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## Sephiroth

My bad, I didn't realise there was..._26 minutes_...of extra footage?!

^_^



Do let us know what you think, Cayal.  




Couldn't bear to watch it in English, though.......


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## Cayal

I miss movies if i read subtitles...that's just me.

I didn't get it before the weekend...depressed.


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## Commonmind

I have a particular group of friends who refuse to watch _any_ movie without subtitles now, having been fans of anime for some time -- it's extremely frustrating. I generally don't need subs when watching anime, and very often what's being said is drastically different than what's flashing along the bottom of the screen -- which gets confusing. And while watching anything with an English voice track, I just get distracted, find myself looking down at the subs more often than I should be -- for no damn reason.

I only wish their enthusiasm for the Japanese culture, which can be unhealthy at times, led them to some language courses.


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## HareBrain

I've found something rather weird about my reactions to the FF series, and I wonder if anyone shares it? I found I became less invested emotionally in the characters the more "realistic" they became. The "eyes and hair only" models used for the original FFVII were fine, they looked as though they might be real people crudely portrayed. But in Advent Children they were horrible - they couldn't be real people at all, just clever plastic facsimiles with nylon hair. The same with what I've seen of FFXIII.

Bring back rubbish graphics!

Ugh, I must be getting old ...


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## Commonmind

> Ugh, I must be getting old ...



Amen, Brother.


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## Cayal

Well it's here, packaged, waiting for me to watch it and I gotta go to work...urgh.


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## Cayal

I'll preface this by saying I loved Advent Children DVD version.

But...(and no spoilers)


Advent Children Complete completely blows it away. The 26 minutes they add makes a whole lot of difference. The story makes more sense, they clarify a lot of things.
They also changed the script on scenes in the DVD version which also improves the story and gets rid of the silly phrases.
With Crisis Core out, there are more Zack scenes and in relation to that game, as well as more references to VII, including Sector 7 plate crash.

They also changed the music a bit, which was interesting.
Best of all, the end fight with Sephiroth is improved, especially at the end (and makes a great reference to VII).

I think it is definitely worth the purchase.


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## Cayal

AND!!!!! Nanaki TALKS!!!


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## Sephiroth

Wow.  It sounds like a must-see!


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## Cayal

This is the best CGI scene from any Final Fantasy game IMO

YouTube - Final Fantasy VII Crisis Core: Sephiroth vs Genesis & Angeal in HD!


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## Thadlerian

Now that this thread is alive and kicking, I thought I'd add some thoughts on Final Fantasy IX, after finally having played it through. The text is related to my previous entry in this thread:



Thadlerian said:


> I was thinking of summing up my thought on Final Fantasy. So, here's a post I wrote at another forum (the xkcd forum):
> (ETC)



So, now I've been through Final Fantasy IX as well. What to say? I think it ranks equal to FFVII in terms of quality and likeability. Technically, it outranks the public's favourite in a number of fields, but it feels lacking in something essential that sets VII apart from the other games. Let's get the details on the table, good and bad.

The best thing about the game is easily the music. The world theme, the romance theme, and several character themes (Freya, Cid, Beatrix {Loss of Me/Protecting my Devotion}, Amarant, Vivi) are all excellent, Black Mage Village is priceless, and You're Not Alone has got to be one of the best video game tracks, especially the live orchestra version.

Second up, the playable characters are all great. In FFVI there were just a lot of them, with hardly any development. In FFVII they stood more out, but interacted _only_ with Cloud, never with each other. FFVIII had memorable characters, but again, no development whatsoever, and only weak interactions. The contrast to FFIX is striking. Already from the beginning, Vivi stands out as highly likeable, and you know he'll see a lot of events in the game. His friendship with Steiner borders on touching, with the big, arrogant man sincerely respecting and encouraging him. 

Steiner himself is one of the more intriguing characters of the FF series - the first that I've seen so far that I will call _complex_. He's a helpless piece of comical relief all right, with his awkward formality, and his being so quick to anger, but he has a nasty streak as well. He likes power, and he likes abusing it. You can see that in how he behaves. Zidane is the first person he's met whom he can't bully and intimidate, and this makes their relationship rather interesting.

Freya spells out "strong character" like few others I've seen. She has style and drama, she can stand on her own, and she has some great moments. The whole section from where we meet her in Lindblum, travel through the atmospheric Gizamaluke grotto, and reach the ruined Burmecia, until she's lying the the rain, defeated and humiliated by Beatrix - it's easily my favourite part of the game.

There is Quina, hated by many, and not much played by me, but easily a far more interesting character than Gogo or Caith Sith, what's with his/her way of seeing him/herself as the real main character, being on a quest to eat, and with the whole Kuja thing as completely uninteresting. Eiko sure is annoying as well, but her introduction, seeing her living alone with the moogles, desperately trying to make Zidane and the others like her, is a moving and enjoyable scene.

The game mechanics themselves feel smoother than in the previous games, and are far better blended with the storyline and setting than in previous games. Unique character ability combinations, the ability to skip eidolon summon movies, and various other details makes the game more forgiving to play.

The storyline in itself is hardly remarkable, but compared to previous games, the storytelling is excellent. The active time event function is great, just the fact that they're letting us have all these little story details is a huge leap from FFVIII. The setting is sweet as well, with cities like Lindblum and Treno, though nothing comes close to the (at times) almost Grim Fandango-ish Midgar in FFVII.

That's the good stuff. On to the bad:

In particularly one respect, the game is a lot like FFVIII: It is loaded up, completely saturated with good stuff in the beginning, to hook players and woo reviewers. Tons of CGI is contrasted by a stark absence of it in the later parts of the game (save for end-CD crenscendi). That might have been rather acceptable, if not for the fact that the story functions in the same way. All the interesting stories and relationships are bunched up in the beginning. Steiner's friendship with Vivi plays an active role, and we're treated with Freya's tragic love of Sir Fratley. None of these sub-plots are referred to again, except for the quick resolution of the Fratley problem by the ultimate end of the game. Long before the characters have actually become interchangeable, their quirks and influences are mostly gone. It's as if the developers got tired of making the game, and just wanted to finish it without too much ado.

Instead, we're treated with unfulfilling side-plots like Steiner's attraction to Beatrix (who's got "fanservice" written all over her in an exceptionally tasteless fashion), and Eiko's sporadically mentioned jealousy of Garnet. Vivi's troubles continue throughout the game, but increasingly more predictably in their expression and in his reactions.

In place of all these promised interacions, we're given the relationship between Zidane and Garnet as the main plot element aside from the "beat the bad guy" quest. Zidane is an improvement over Squall (but so is _any_ person, real or fictional. Or any object, for that sake), and he's got some ambivalence, what's with his less-than-decent behaviour when chasing girls (like the scene when they're climbing into the cargo airship), but ultimately he's as predictable as Ashitaka from Princess Mononoke.

Garnet, on the other hand, is _not_ an improvement over Rinoa (and that's BAD). She's weak (her eidolons are strong, but that's strictly a matter of gameplay, not story), she gets herself into trouble by means of her own bad judgement, and she's generally passive/negative and predictable in her interaction with Zidane. The recipe is simple, a favourite of the Fantasy genre: She is hard to get, until she has been "won", and then she submits completely. Their romance has no nerve, nothing is ever at stake, and there are no dynamic elements. And, worst of all, to fulfill it, Zidane is (essentially) _resurrected_. I HATE that kind of rubbish. You DON'T resurrect characters (without at least a huge penalty), ESPECIALLY NOT after having a lengthy scene with each of the other characters saying their goodbyes. The final cutscene is cute as hell, but it adds nothing to the story.

There, now I'm out of steam. A strong game in many respects, but harmed by problems with the main storyline and cast, and the absence of good side-plots as soon as characters have been well introduced. Like most anime, there is a humanist/pacifist message, and like most anime, there is no heart or innovation in the presentation of the message whatsoever.

Another video game, in other words. An enjoyable pastime, but one less memorable than Final Fantasy VII.


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## mushroomyakuza

Good post. FFIX is favorably remembered by many, though I always feel it's the most under appreciated of the trilogy of PSOne Final Fantasy games. I, too, LOVE the Active Time Event sequences, and think Square Enix are taking a massive step backwards by not including them in future games. They showed real promise and evened out the characterisation across the ensemble nicely, rather than just focusing on two or three "key" characters, as they did in FFVIII. 

I agree with what you say about them making great character intros and not following through though. That is often the case in Final Fantasy, and it's a real shame. Particularly in the more recent games, I feel they try and introduce new characters to add some excitement but don't plan any sub-plots or character arcs for them, and eventually they become nothing but cameo roles that you occassionally draft into battle for their abilities. And as you say, there are some really great locations in FFIX, like Treno, Lindblum, and as far as I'm concerned pretty much the whole of the Outer Continent - that whole story really changed the direction of the game without making it feel artifical, and it's probably my favourite part. 

I find it hard to nail exactly why SquareEnix have lost their way, but I am without doubt that they have done so. FFXII was appalingly disappointing. The characterisation was wather thin or non-existent. Vaan and Penelo had virtually no reason to be in the story, yet they were the centre of it while far more compelling characters like Basch and Balthier get pushed to the side. Characters you expect them to develop with backstory never get it (Fran) and the others have the most 2-D personalities in the series' history since Final Fantasy III (not the US one, which is the classic FFVI).

I have genuine concerns about FFXIII. In recent years, it seems, to me at least, that each new FF game, SquareEnix let you play the game a little less, each time. Seriously, just think about the number of times you've thought to yourself "Wow, that looks awesome...I wish I was controlling it". It's becoming increasingly like a movie, losing it's freeform exploration elements, and becoming increasingly narrow and linear. That's not Final Fantasy, not to me. Along with the disappearance of character classes (making the strategy of choosing who to have in your party almost pointless), airships, the world map (this HAS to come back now, seriously), the back-seating of chocobos and minimal amount of side-quests along with the seriously dodgy handling of summons (motorbikes, for God's sake?) and limit breaks, if this direction persists I'm going to start wondering just why they keep calling it Final Fantasy when clearly it's not.

Just my two cents.


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## Cayal

Square Enix released new details on Final Fantasy 14

New Final Fantasy XIV details - Playstation Squad

Anyone actually looking forward to playing another MMORPG? I never played Final Fantasy XI since I refused to pay fees to play a game I bought. 
Though I might consider XIV, though I am not really big on MMORPGs.


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