# Claim: Humans recorded asteroid strike that caused mini-ice age



## Brian G Turner (Apr 23, 2017)

Ancient carvings show comet hit Earth and triggered mini ice age



> Ancient symbols carved into stone at an archaeological site in Turkey tell the story of a devastating comet impact that triggered a mini ice age more than 13,000 years ago.
> 
> Evidence from the carvings, made on a pillar known as the Vulture Stone, suggests that a swarm of comet fragments hit the Earth in around 11000 BC.
> ...
> ...



I thought the city was dated as beginning in the 10th millennium BC, and this observation puts it as earlier. I don't remember any suggestion of Gobekli Tepe using stone before this time, so I find myself having to approach this story with some respect but a little more scepticism.


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## 2DaveWixon (Apr 23, 2017)

So, no comment on the comet?
(Not arguing with your stance -- this is, to be sure, only supported by fragmentary evidence.)


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## Alexa (Apr 23, 2017)

It's possible, but still hard to believe after all this time. We all look at Earth as we can it right now and we tend to forget that the continents moved around and changed its surface a lot. Scientists said Mediterranean See will dissapear and Australia will hit the continent again in the future. 

It seems small asteroids pass within this distance of Earth a few times a week. Wednesday, one of them named 2014 JO25, came about 1.1 million miles (1.8 million kilometers) from Earth, NASA says. I read another article telling it passed safetely away, but that one was in French, so I cannot give you the link.







NASA captures images of large asteroid set to fly by Earth  - CNN.com


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## 2DaveWixon (Apr 23, 2017)

Alexa said:


> It's possible, but still hard to believe after all this time. We all look at Earth as we can it right now and we tend to forget that the continents moved around and changed its surface a lot. Scientists said Mediterranean See will dissapear and Australia will hit the continent again in the future.
> 
> It seems small asteroids pass within this distance of Earth a few times a week. Wednesday, one of them named 2014 JO25, came about 1.1 million miles (1.8 million kilometers) from Earth, NASA says. I read another article telling it passed safetely away, but that one was in French, so I cannot give you the link.
> 
> ...


Such changes, seeable only in the imagination's long view, are one of the most fascinating subjects I've ever run across!
(I wonder if there's a Velikovsky thread...?)


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## Alexa (Apr 23, 2017)

You mean about the colliding of the continents ? We had a series of documentary on TV. I really enjoyed watching them.

Imagine that. 250 millions ago, we had only a continent, Pangaea and a huge ocean, Panthalassa. 50 millions later, a big land mass split and 7 continents and several oceans were born.  Quite impressive, isn't it ?


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## pinhead (Apr 23, 2017)

this is like a chicken and the egg question, left or right well you could also bring in the God element if you so wished but the element which I reline my own documentary on is the facts for the researchers, scientist and scholars. acknowledgement they`ll so richly given there are other basic fact like the ice age, dinosaurs plus the facts by Alexa shows some impressive facts. but they`ll always be more questions of when, where and how!


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## 2DaveWixon (Apr 23, 2017)

Alexa said:


> You mean about the colliding of the continents ? We had a series of documentary on TV. I really enjoyed watching them.
> 
> Imagine that. 250 millions ago, we had only a continent, Pangaea and a huge ocean, Panthalassa. 50 millions later, a big land mass split and 7 continents and several oceans were born.  Quite impressive, isn't it ?


What fascinates me is how people who speak about evolution often seem to miss the possibility that evolution itself might have been shaped/altered by movements, even joinders, of the continents...

Sorry, Brian, I think we've wandered off point...but if it's any consolation, we're having fun!


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## 2DaveWixon (Apr 23, 2017)

pinhead said:


> this is like a chicken and the egg question, left or right well you could also bring in the God element if you so wished but the element which I reline my own documentary on is the facts for the researchers, scientist and scholars. acknowledgement they`ll so richly given there are other basic fact like the ice age, dinosaurs plus the facts by Alexa shows some impressive facts. but they`ll always be more questions of when, where and how!


I think of it, during dream time, as the Earth breathing -- the continents draw together as if the planet is expelling breath...then they separate as the planet takes another deep breath, causing its chest to expand...


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## pinhead (Apr 23, 2017)

2DaveWixon said:


> I think of it, during dream time, as the Earth breathing -- the continents draw together as if the planet is expelling breath...then they separate as the planet takes another deep breath, causing its chest to expand...


I totally agree with your statement this subject is multi-complex to call it in one smaller pieces  to explain all the elements drawing together the whole system. argh! getting deeper in than I`m able to do today. 2DaveWixon I hope we`ll be able to chat some more later on this.


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## 2DaveWixon (Apr 23, 2017)

pinhead said:


> I totally agree with your statement this subject is multi-complex to call it in one smaller pieces  to explain all the elements drawing together the whole system. argh! getting deeper in than I`m able to do today. 2DaveWixon I hope we`ll be able to chat some more later on this.


Me for some deep-breathing exercises!


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## Dave (Apr 23, 2017)

2DaveWixon said:


> What fascinates me is how people who speak about evolution often seem to miss the possibility that evolution itself might have been shaped/altered by movements, even joinders, of the continents...


Geographical barriers isolating populations are one important mechanism leading to the creation of different species. The re-introduction of invasive species creates competition for resources and produces natural selection. However, continental drift is very slow and I think droughts or floods causing the appearance and disappearance of land bridges, or volcanic activity, or faults following earthquakes would be more common means.

Regarding the original post, I'm not qualified to make an opinion on the scientific validity, but history is all about telling good stories. Those pictures are just another way of telling history. There are "flood event" stories in every culture but the date is flexible. The date of this "broken comet event" could also be flexible. The "good story" would be much more important than the historical accuracy.


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## 2DaveWixon (Apr 23, 2017)

Dave said:


> Geographical barriers isolating populations are one important mechanism leading to the creation of different species. The re-introduction of invasive species creates competition for resources and produces natural selection. However, continental drift is very slow and I think droughts or floods causing the appearance and disappearance of land bridges, or volcanic activity, or faults following earthquakes would be more common means.
> 
> Regarding the original post, I'm not qualified to make an opinion on the scientific validity, but history is all about telling good stories. Those pictures are just another way of telling history. There are "flood event" stories in every culture but the date is flexible. The date of this "broken comet event" could also be flexible. The "good story" would be much more important than the historical accuracy.


True that!
Nonetheless, while I'm no sort of expert on Turkey, I do seem to recall with interest the number of interesting archaeological finds in the last few decades -- town in caves, buried cities, fields of stones with mysterious carvings...
It certainly makes sense that Asia Minor (does anyone ever use that name any more?) would be a natural crossroads for migrations, both human and non-... I think if I were in college and thinking about archaeology, I'd look into taking Turkish lessons.
(it's not so long ago that Turkish arch. was all about Troy...)


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## Ursa major (Apr 23, 2017)

I think I'll be kind and say that the article is simply bad science fiction...


...unless it took the reporters from the New Scientist and the Press Association 20 days to write the article....


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## Alexa (Apr 24, 2017)

They said it was written *By new Scientist staff and Press Association*. Maybe it was written by a student.


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## 2DaveWixon (Apr 24, 2017)

Alexa said:


> They said it was written *By new Scientist staff and Press Association*. Maybe it was written by a student.


Well, maybe the story had to be carved in stone?


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## Alexa (Apr 24, 2017)

A story carved in stone about a carved stone ?


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## Alexa (Apr 24, 2017)

All right. I found another article about the same subject, but much more interesting and professional. Brian, let us know if you are still skeptical.



> Using a computer programme to show where the constellations would have appeared above Turkey thousands of years ago, they were able to pinpoint the comet strike to 10,950BC, the exact time the Younger Dryas begins according to ice core data from Greenland.
> 
> The Younger Dryas is viewed as a crucial period for humanity, as it roughly coincides with the emergence of agriculture and the first Neolithic civilisations.










> "It appears Göbekli Tepe was, among other things, an observatory for monitoring the night sky.
> 
> “One of its pillars seems to have served as a memorial to this devastating event – probably the worst day in history since the end of the ice age.”
> 
> Gobekli Tepe, is thought to be the world's oldest temple site, which dates from around 9,000BC, predating Stonehenge by around 6,000 years.



Ancient stone carvings confirm how comet struck Earth in 10,950BC, sparking the rise of civilisations


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## Brian G Turner (Apr 24, 2017)

> Gobekli Tepe, is thought to be the world's oldest temple site, which dates from around 9,000BC



This is what I mean - the dates are all wrong. The press keep reporting that a temple - not started until 9,000BC - happens to accurately record an asteroid strike that happened 2,000 years before it was even built.


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## Dave (Apr 24, 2017)

Brian G Turner said:


> This is what I mean - the dates are all wrong. The press keep reporting that a temple - not started until 9,000BC - happens to accurately record an asteroid strike that happened 2,000 years before it was even built.


Brian has a point. Passing down folk stories between generations by word of mouth is one thing. Remembering accurately, the exact positions in the night sky, of stars for 2000 years, before recording them carved on stone is another. 

Unless, it was accurately transcribed from an earlier stone in an earlier temple.


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## Brian G Turner (Apr 24, 2017)

This piece continues to bother me, so I dug deeper - the original research paper can be found here:
http://maajournal.com/Issues/2017/Vol17-1/Sweatman and Tsikritsis 17(1).pdf

What it basically says is that someone looked to see if they could get images of animals on a specific stone to match constellations using a piece of software. They did get a fit, but only for 4 specific dates:

2,000 AD – Winter solstice
4,350 BC – Autumnal equinox
10,950 BC – Summer solstice
18,000 BC – Spring equinox

They then checked to see whether any related to dating of the stone.

But here's the strange part - someone previously radiocarbon dated the stone to around 11,000 BC. But the last I heard, stone cannot be radiocarbon-dated because ... it's stone. You can only do this with organic matter, because that contains the carbon matter for dating.

So the researcher decided on the 10,950 BC date to match the radiocarbon dating - even though this means the structure would pre-date the settlement by 2,000 years.

In fact, the research paper itself mentions almost nothing about the actual archaeology or dating on the site.

But the researcher has heard of the comet theory for wiping out the mammoths, so immediately connected both dates. That's what the paper states.

The rest of the stone markings remain unexplained, but there is a circle - which is now presumed to be the comet to fit this date.

Which now becomes a "fragmented asteroid" that wiped out the mammoths. The irony being, the Telegraph article in an earlier post points out that the theory that a comet wiped out the mammoths is no longer accepted.

IMO this study is based on flawed assumptions from start to finish, resulting in a grand statement that just isn't supported by the actual evidence.


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## Ursa major (Apr 24, 2017)

Alexa said:


> I found another article about the same subject, but much more interesting and professional.


It states:





> One of its pillars seems to have served as a memorial to this devastating event


The most relevant word in that sentence fragment is "seems" which, in the absence of any other evidence, means that we're dealing with pure speculation and so the story can be dismissed as lacking any scientific basis. And that's without all the other evidence that this is a load of old nonsense.


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## Alexa (Apr 24, 2017)

Brian, as I can see this article, we are dealing with a hypothesis of catastrophic event.They still have to finish the digging to try to prove anything. And honestly, if they have only stones on hand, no matter how old they are, all they can do is to speculate about a subject.



> Much more archaeology waits to be performed at Göbekli Tepe and neighbouring sites like Karahan Tepe. It will be very interesting to see how the additional evidence from these sites accumulates. Meanwhile, it seems prudent to take coherent catastrophism seriously.


(page 13/18 from Sweatman and Tsikritsis)

Ursa, Brian found the original document which looks to be the source of inspiration for both articles mentionned above.


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## 2DaveWixon (Apr 24, 2017)

Alexa said:


> A story carved in stone about a carved stone ?


And using stone tools, of course!


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## Brian G Turner (Apr 24, 2017)

Lol! I'm dissing my own thread.


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## 2DaveWixon (Apr 24, 2017)

Dave said:


> Brian has a point. Passing down folk stories between generations by word of mouth is one thing. Remembering accurately, the exact positions in the night sky, of stars for 2000 years, before recording them carved on stone is another.
> 
> Unless, it was accurately transcribed from an earlier stone in an earlier temple.


Or unless the stone was carved first, and a temple built around it later?


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## 2DaveWixon (Apr 24, 2017)

Brian G Turner said:


> Lol! I'm dissing my own thread.


What you're really doing is transmuting it from science to science fiction!


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## Ursa major (Apr 24, 2017)

2DaveWixon said:


> is transmuting it from science to science fiction


I think it's more like how some sculptors describe what they're doing, in Brian's case, revealing -- well, unearthing  -- the science fiction (not particularly well hidden) within the science-y speculation.


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## J Riff (Apr 24, 2017)

13,000 is getting close. I hear 12,000 and change. And it's not the first time this same asteroid rubble has come round and dropped in for a little mass destruction.


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## Alexa (Apr 25, 2017)

Brian G Turner said:


> Lol! I'm dissing my own thread.



No worries. We helped you a bit with non required information and had fun in the process.


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## hej (Oct 4, 2017)

Brian G Turner said:


> Ancient carvings show comet hit Earth and triggered mini ice age.



Pretty neat if true. The use of symbols (e.g. the Ishango Bone and representations of animals in cave art) predate even (extant) proto-writing by millenia.

On a somewhat related note is the origin of the Kaali Crater in Estonia.

It resulted from a meteor strike that could have happened 1530–1450 BCE (or perhaps much earlier). I find it interesting for a number of reasons, including the following.

1. The meteor (pieces) landed apparently in a populated area.
2. The meteor seems to appear in the Kalevala (Finnish epic).
3. The meteor, to my knowledge, does not appear in the Kalevipoeg (Estonian epic, which bears some similarities to the Finnish one).

I find the second point dubious because Elias Lönnrot composed the Kalevala from folk tales in the 19th century -- millenia after the most recent estimate for the crater. If true, though, I find inspiring that a people could keep a story alive for so long in their collective memory.


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## Vertigo (Oct 4, 2017)

Brian G Turner said:


> This piece continues to bother me, so I dug deeper - the original research paper can be found here:
> http://maajournal.com/Issues/2017/Vol17-1/Sweatman and Tsikritsis 17(1).pdf
> 
> What it basically says is that someone looked to see if they could get images of animals on a specific stone to match constellations using a piece of software. They did get a fit, but only for 4 specific dates:
> ...


You might want to be a little careful with those dates @Brian G Turner as the radiocarbon dating referred to in the article (done on organic matter in the plaster of some of the walls rather than the stone itself) gave a date of 11,530*BP* which is different to BC/BCE. As I understand it BP refers to years before 'present.' In this case present refers to 1950 when radiocarbon dating first started. This gives a BCE age of around 10,000 odd years.


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