# IE11 : automatic upgrade to heap of dung



## Ursa major (Mar 3, 2014)

This morning, the look of IE11 has completely changed from the way it was last night (I assume to something able to run on some tiny mobile phone display). It occupies the whole screen (fine on a 2" screen; mine's 17" and I prefer to have multiple windows open) and you have to click before you're even shown the tabs and the favourites. On top of that, it runs like a drain (and the machine is a four-core i7): almost ten seconds before it let me scroll down a Chrons page, five before I could type into the title bar of this thread! (To let you know that it is the software taking all the time, it brings up the page's URL and then runs those irritating line of dots one gets in Hotmail/outlook across it.) What a heap of crap!


If I can't get to it go back to a display I like, I'm going to change browsers. Any suggestions? (I'm using windows 8.1 (though this too may change if that's why the bl**dy browser is the way it is, although it was all working perfectly yesterday.)


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## Brian G Turner (Mar 3, 2014)

Firefox:
Download Firefox

Or Seamonkey:
SeaMonkey: Download & Releases

IE has too much of a history with security flaws - worth checking out the above if you don't mind trying a different browser.


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## lonewolfwanderer (Mar 3, 2014)

Google Chrome is also pretty good, and usually pretty quick. Only issue with Firefox, i find, is they don't keep up with NIS's (Norton Internet Security) regular updates, and NIS's Identity Protection gets screwed up as a result.

Plus with Google Chrome, if you have a Google account, you can access your bookmarks and last opened tabs on all your devices that have Chrome.


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## Ursa major (Mar 3, 2014)

I've done a system restore (back to Saturday), so there are now 426GBs of updates waiting (plus virus checker updates). I've changed the update characteristics (to me approving them before they happen: this option wasn't offered on setting up the PC, and I forgot to change it in the Control Panel). I hadn't noticed the checked flag on the IE "About" window that enables automatic IE updates. (Note that I'm logged into my old laptop - using IE9 - in case the Restore did a wobbly; IE9 does not have this flag.)

Note: the update was from IE 11.0.9600.16*384* to IE 11.0.9600.16*518*. I've seen some issues with 16518 on the Web, but none mentioning the problems I've had. That may be because of what I did. This morning, the (new) machine asked me which browser I wanted to use. It said that while I decided (done by installing a browser) I could use the one that was on the apps screen; the icon had been removed from the bar at the botton of the screen (as I'm using the desktop, not the Apps UI). Because I didn't want to waste time rolleyes, I went straight to the Apps screen. Now when I've used this before, as with M$ Office, I got a version I expected. I wonder if launching IE11 from the apps screen somehow indicated that I wanted to use an apps-screen UI. I'll have to see.

I actually like IE eek in its normal configuration, so don't want to install another browser, but I shall if the heap of s**t I was forced briefly to use this morning is all that's on offer from Microsoft. Even if the UI was okay - it isn't - it's unusable because of the seconds-long delay after each user-requested action. Goodness only knows what it would be like on this machine (Intel Core2 Duo T7100 @1.8GHz, with only 2G Ram); luckily, being Vista, I can't get anything later than IE9.


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## lonewolfwanderer (Mar 3, 2014)

Ursa major said:


> I've done a system restore (back to Saturday), so there are now 426GBs of updates waiting (plus virus checker updates). I've changed the updat characteristics (to me approving them before they happen), including the flag on the IE "About" window that says automatic updates. (I'm logged into my old laptop - using IE9 - in case the Restore did a wobbly.)
> 
> Note: the updates was from IE 11.0.9600.16384 to IE 11.0.9600.16518. I've seen some issues with 16518, but none mentioning the problems I've had. That may be because of what I did. This morning, the new machine asked me wish browser I wanted to us. It said that while I decided (by installing a browser) I could use the one that was on the apps screen; it had been removed from the bar at the botton of the screen (as I'm using the desktop, not the Apps UI). Because I didn't want to waste time rolleyes, I went straight to the apps screen. Now when I've used this before, as with M$ Office, I got a version I expected. I wonder if launching IE11 from the apps screen somehow indicated that I wanted to use and apps-screen UI. I'll have to see.
> 
> I actually like IE eek in its normal configuration, so don't want to install another browser, but I shall if the heap of s**t I was forced briefly to use this morning is all that's on offer from Microsoft. Even if the UI was okay - it isn't - it's unusable because of the seconds-long delay after each user-requested action. Goodness only knows what it would be like on this machine (Intel Core2 Duo T7100 @1.8GHz, with only 2G Ram); luckily, being Vista, I can't get anything later than IE9.



 I know exactly what is up with your IE... You're running it in windows 8 metro mode (Which runs it full screen, like an app). You can change that by removing IE as your default browser, or in the navigation bar at the bottom of the screen: Press the button with the spanner on it, and select "View in Desktop". If the navigation bar doesn't show, there should be a thin bar at the bottom of the screen, with an ellipsis. 

I will try and find a more suitable solution.


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## Ursa major (Mar 3, 2014)

Thanks! 

That sounds like what's happening, and you've given me a workaround. 

(I can't hold up updating IE11 as most updates are meant to close security flaws, and I don't want to leave myself more vulnerable than I need to be.)


*EDIT*: Anyway, I'm uploading the updates (I assume they're still somewhere on the machine, so uploading is probably the wrong verb), minus the browser-selection, and I'll see how it goes.


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## lonewolfwanderer (Mar 3, 2014)

Ursa major said:


> Thanks!
> 
> That sounds like what's happening, and you've given me a workaround.
> 
> (I can't hold up updating IE11 as most updates are meant to close security flaws, and I don't want to leave myself more vulnerable than I need to be.)



Here is a more permanent solution, that doesn't require you to remove IE as your default program.

How to open Internet Explorer 10 in Desktop Mode on Windows 8 | Oxford SBS Guy


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## Ursa major (Mar 3, 2014)

Excellent. 

(I'll see whether it works for IE11, but I don't see why it shouldn't: apart from the "placing text over a URL in Chrons" issue, it seemed to be working in the same way as the IE10 I've used.)


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## Mouse (Mar 3, 2014)

I'm surprised anybody's still using IE. Firefox is the best, I find. I tried Opera but didn't like it.


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## Ursa major (Mar 3, 2014)

Just to mention that the application of the updates has gone okay (Microsoft, Anti-Virus and HP) and the system is working as it was yesterday. Note that IE is at the same version as the one that wasn't working properly this morning, i.e.  11.0.9600.518, so it wasn't the IE update that was causing the problems. The only thing different to this morning's configuration is the absence of the browser-changing option software; I don't think I shall be bothering to use this software anytime soon.

I'll keep a record of the possible fixes in case things go haywire again.


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## lonewolfwanderer (Mar 3, 2014)

Ye, I personally like the metro look of IE but it get's irritating if you are using a mouse and keyboard. Despite that, however, I just use Google Chrome. I find it simpler to use.

Opera on PC isn't good. It's better for smartphones, etc.


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## Ursa major (Mar 3, 2014)

I always try and use mouse and keyboard, as I hate  touchpads** and have issues with touchscreens (which keep moving about when one or other paper documents I'm  looking at brush against the screen). The new laptop (like the new one) doesn't have a touchscreen )), nor something that analyses my hand movements and thereby screws up what I'm doing. (I'm having a great deal of "fun" at the moment, as I have just the one USB mouse here, but am using both laptops at the moment, in different rooms).


** - The one on this old laptop is very sensitive, particularly so (for some reason ) just before I hit ctrl-C or ctrl-X, meaning all sorts of random stuff gets moved about if I'm not careful.


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## Pyan (Mar 3, 2014)

lonewolfwanderer said:


> Opera on PC isn't good. It's better for smartphones, etc.



I've been running Opera on PCs for years, and had very few problems with it. Why do you say it's not good?

(not being defensive - just wondering...)


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## lonewolfwanderer (Mar 3, 2014)

pyan said:


> I've been running Opera on PCs for years, and had very few problems with it. Why do you say it's not good?
> 
> (not being defensive - just wondering...)



I just personally prefer Opera on smartphones. On PC, for me, it tends to be sluggish compared to what i'm used to.


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## Erin99 (Mar 3, 2014)

*O*PERA FTW!!! (How I've missed doing that here!)




And you can set the page refresh to "instantly redraw" in the settings, which speeds things up, and you can turn off the image and page cache if you have any problems viewing this site.

(Py - wohooooo! That's SOOOO nice to hear!!!)


Ursa - there must be a way to revert. I'd uninstall and find a download of an older version (and set whatever auto-upgrade feature you had off). I avoid using IE, though... *shudders*

*Edit: I should finish reading the thread before replying.  Well, glad it's sorted!


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## Ursa major (Mar 3, 2014)

I have reverted, Leisha - a restore, a rerun of the updates (total save for the browser-selector) - and everything is okay for now.


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## Overread (Mar 3, 2014)

Opera used to be really good - but they built the whole back end of it and sadly stripped out a HUGE number of features. Now its not even got a favourites list! 

It's got a nice favourites bar with folders, but no sub-folder and you can't have more than a few or they run off the edge of the screen. Sadly both it and Firefox have dumped the ide of "file - edit" etc.. command menus along the top (why!?!?!) but at least Firefox has a drop-down list of bookmarks with sub-folders (even if its hidden up in the top right corner).

My view - PC interface design took a 20 year step backwards in the last few years with this insane drive to get smartphone app-style onto the pc


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## Erin99 (Mar 3, 2014)

Oh. I just downloaded a new Opera, to see what you meant... Where are all my features gone?! Opera was the leading browser for customisation, and now it's reduced to three tabs of basic settings???




And - blimey - you're right. They've ruined Bookmarks. And I always had the old-style "Show Menu" on, cos I like my File | Edit | View, etc.

I'll have to make sure I only upgrade to the latest *decent* version, if I ever upgrade.


Can't believe my beloved Opera is ruined... 

Opera, if you read this somehow, *FIX IT*!

I can't even add my precious red-and-bold O to the Opera name, cos it doesn't deserve it...

--------------------------------------------------


Ursa - I realised too late that you'd fixed it (see my edit). I'm very glad you got a workaround. Browsers are one of those things we rely on and come to love, even in the face of people telling us we should switch...

*coughmighthavetochangeonedayifOperadoesn'tfixitself*


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## Overread (Mar 3, 2014)

Leisha - yeah got a new computer and leaped on new opera - only to get the same shock. I might well down-grade to an older more feature rich version. I also can't get why something so simple as a favourites/bookmarks menu has been cut - sadly the current coders for opera appear inept (and apparently its been like this for over a year!) 





Also in other news  -HI LOOPYCAT!


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## Pyan (Mar 4, 2014)

Umm - you two _are_ using Speed Dial? And you do know that Speed Dial items can be stacked in folders? And you _are_ using Stash? Just wondered...


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## Overread (Mar 4, 2014)

The problem is speed-dial slows things down because it wants to keep reloading the pages for its nifty display - pressing f5 on the speeddial page with a few hundred links is a deathnail for the internet and the computers speed


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## Ursa major (Mar 4, 2014)

Speaking of speed...

While I can understand the UI change - full screen, tabs hidden until required - for devices with limited screen space, I still don't know why that mode of the  IE11 browser was running so slow. It reminded me of the time when I only had dial up and a Dell laptop bought in 2002 (as opposed to 21.5Mpbs broadband** and a four-core i7). And yet unless I'd picked up a virus (one attached to the software the restore removed***), the only software I'm not running now is the browser selector. 


** - The benefits of living about 400 metres from an exchange (concentrator) building on the same road as oneself.

*** -  I can see why a virus might hide amongst the O/S and its updates, but that makes ridding a machine of it (once you know it's there) simple: perform a restore.


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## Erin99 (Mar 4, 2014)

You suspect a virus with your Mickeysoft browser upgrade? 

I'm wondering if there was an incompatibility between your old version and the new, though I'm not sure how reverting would fix that (some settings you need to start new on rather than keep the old). I have a similar trouble with *O*pera. (Yes, the red O is back, cos *this* version is okay...). I've basically kept the same version since 2001 eek, upgrading each time rather than installing afresh - though maybe once or twice I have installed it new and moved my old settings over - and I find now it's in a right mess with some sites. *cough* this one. Here, I don't see the header image and site logo, nor the images at the bottom. I also have to type post codes (like bold, italic, etc.) in myself, or manually move my mouse to highlight and press style buttons above the editor, cos keyboard shortcutting doesn't work any more somehow and I don't see text as-is; I see all the codes around text. But I can't bring myself to go through the hassle of reinstalling a new one and NOT have my old settings to bring over. I'd have to configure everything *by hand* to make sure nothing was being incompatible...

Oh. Wait. I couldn't anyway, cos Opera's changed and I wouldn't want it. Oh.


And, Py, I LOVE speed dial. But I can't use folders in my version, and I've no idea what Stash is, except it sounds naughty! 


Is this my shocked-smiley post???

OR -  (Yes, may as well keep it up. ) New PC?! Must list specs! (I'm already jealous of Ursa's specs! I made Seph a PC with Ursa's specs way back before I moved, but I can never bring myself to do nice stuff to me, too, so I have a medium-spec PC... but I love it. And I'm lucky, cos it's probably still better than what some people have to put up with.)

And YAAAAAAAAAAAAY! You'd tried to install Opera! I hadn't realised you'd been such a big fan. *big hugs to you and Pyan*

Sorry to derail...

Oh, and my other grump is, I got a new keyboard for my birthday, which cuts down on my painful joints (it's soooo comfy!), and yet... Mickeysoft have seen fit to replace all the F-keys with their own commands, and all I can do if I don't want them is change them so they open something else or disable the keys completely...

So, if I hit F11 - my old staple to fullscreen sites - I get a "Save page" window. If I hit F5 - my other old friend - I get "Open a html file" window.

Gonna have to see if I can do something with macros.


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## Ursa major (Mar 4, 2014)

The version of IE that was working last night -- I'm on a machine with IE10 at the moment -- was exactly the same as the one that was running like a blocked drain yesterday morning (as I reran all the updates, other than the browser selection).

Now I suppose that the alleged virus (I don't think it was a virus, by the way**; that is just speculation on my part, the result of not having a clue as to what was actually happening) _might_ be in the bit () of IE code specific to running in the Apps (Metro?) mode of IE, but as I'll be doing my damnedest never to run IE that way, I hope never to find out.


Oh, and commiserations about Opera. 



** - One would have thought that such a virus might have resulted in the odd mention or two on the Web. (I haven't seen anything, though I have seen people having problems with getting access to IE11's Desktop Mode.)


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## Overread (Mar 4, 2014)

Liesha - been using Opera for ages - at least in the previous version it had an exif reader by default so useful for snooping and talking about other peoples photos. 


As for new pc specs - 
Intel Core i5-4670K, NZXT Source 530 - System Build - PCPartPicker United Kingdom

plus a Nvidia Geforce GTX 660 2GB annexed from my previous rig (it was the only new part in it so no need to leave it to waste in a back-up computer).


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## Karn Maeshalanadae (Mar 5, 2014)

Reasons I don't want Windows 8 or to ever use IE. I still say Firefox is still the best to use, though really, I have no idea why browsers have been deciding to get rid of the main menu commands...can be a right pain for one such as me, who prefers to view sites like Chrons zoomed in a certain point...


I have used Opera in the past, but for me, it is missing one critical feature for me-Adblock. As one who likes to view YouTube a lot, despite everything Google has done to THAT site, I really don't like having to sit through ads on every single video...


Having to use an IPad for the last however long has really made me appreciate Adblock all the more...



Ursa, if I were you, since you don't have touchscreen, might I suggest actually downgrading you operating system back to 7 and using Firefox?


What I am worried about anymore is the possibility of all OS's in the future being like Windows 8...


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## lonewolfwanderer (Mar 5, 2014)

Karn Maeshalanadae said:


> Reasons I don't want Windows 8 or to ever use IE. I still say Firefox is still the best to use, though really, I have no idea why browsers have been deciding to get rid of the main menu commands...can be a right pain for one such as me, who prefers to view sites like Chrons zoomed in a certain point...
> 
> 
> I have used Opera in the past, but for me, it is missing one critical feature for me-Adblock. As one who likes to view YouTube a lot, despite everything Google has done to THAT site, I really don't like having to sit through ads on every single video...
> ...



I personally quite like Windows 8. Fine, there are areas they could've done better, or even different, but what is life without a few faults? And Windows 8 was Microsoft's, albeit failed, attempt at creating a unified OS system. One must make mistakes before one learns to do it properly.

Rumours of Windows 9 seems to improve on Windows 8 significantly (eg. it's rumoured the metro start menu will be made smaller and will open within the desktop).

Anyway, if you learn the keyboard shortcuts, you'll find you don't need the command menus... Take zooming in for example. If you have a mouse with a wheel on it, just press *<ctrl>* and *wheel up* to zoom in, and down to zoom out. You'll also find navigation becomes seemless, and very much quicker, when one knows the shortcuts And that can extend to your desktop too.

Sorry, I am a Computer Geek. But that is just my 2c.


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## Overread (Mar 5, 2014)

The only problems I've had with 8 are

1) The stupidity of removing the start menu - actually its not removed its still in there, the folder for it still exists and is still used. There's just no direct access to it. 

2) The stupidity of changing easy to read neat menu dropdowns for icon ridden messes of menu bars sprawling along the top of window pages.

Other than the interface choices Win 8 runs smooth, easy and fast. Compatibility works really well, they've even got auto-compatability settings for some programs reported to have problems and User Account Control no longer crashes every other exe. It boots up in under a minute, actually under 30 seconds. 
As an OS win 8 (or rather 8.1) is actually very nice; its just the interface and interaction with it where Ms dropped the ball.


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## Lenny (Mar 5, 2014)

According to one of the Windows 8 UX Designers (in a post on Reddit), Windows 8 was designed specifically with the casual user in mind - they're not going to go exploring for things, so we have the tiled start screen with all their content front and centre. Obviously MS wants everyone to use their new interface, so booting into the desktop was disabled, and the start menu was removed, because if they'd still been there all the casual users would have stuck with the thing they knew and not even bothered with the new interface.

I'm not convinced MS have everything right, but I do agree that we need to progress past an interface design that hasn't changed in thirty years...

Now that they have the interface for the casual user down, MS are apparently going to tweak and tweak, and switch focus to the power user**. I wouldn't be surprised to see a great number of power user features in Windows 9 (like, as the UX designer mentions, multiple desktops).



**It appears that Microsoft, like Intel, have their own Tick/Tock cycle - the ticks (95, ME, Vista, Windows 8) introduce new interfaces on top of an updated core system that anyone other than casual users hate, whilst the tocks (98, XP, Windows 7, Windows 9?) improve that interface and smooth out the core system to the joy of everyone.


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## Overread (Mar 5, 2014)

Lenny I don't buy that argument. Casual users are indeed not going to go hunting for things, so why suddenly change the entire interface that has been a staple for 20-30 years? That user group is going to be the very first to be not only totally lost, but also unable to actually find what they want where they want it - even if its presented in a new up-front fashion. 

There are also things that don't make any sense - the metro style of presentation prevents having two windows open at once - you can't have a pdf and calculator open and visible at the same time (can in normal windows). 


And that's the thing, its interface design that offers no bonus to the average user and instead actually makes the experience harder. 



Personally I think there are 2 things that prompted this change:

1) someone in interface design really pushed it and also wanted to roll out the same interface across all windows products from smartphones to desktops and did so with a smartphone bias (which is why desktop users hate it).

2) More EU rulings on competing products and market competition mean that Windows is having more of its once standard installed software options forced as optional or removed from default content to allow competition fair competing chances. Faced with this I suspect they want metro and their windows store up-front and personal for the PC user so that when the time comes they'll still end up installing/using windows based software.


My view is that they mucked it up. Now instead of a nice start menu I actually have to search to find things like calculator or other common software exe's unless I want to use the nightmare that is metro display.


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## Ursa major (Mar 5, 2014)

If one has a tiny screen on, say, a phone, there isn't room for multiple windows to be open (or tabs and a lot of other things). The Metro/whatever screen is the best for such tiny screens, I would have thought, so that's fine.

But I didn't buy a phone, but a laptop with a 17.3" screen. (My desktop PC has a 23" screen.)

If Windows 8 (the laptop has 8.1 and boots up into a screen that bears more than a passing resemblance to Windows 7; my desktop PC has 7) isn't designed to make any use of the extra screen space, why the hell is it the default O/S on machines other than mobile phones and the smaller tablets? (Other than M$ is telling the bigger machines' makers that it must be, that is.)

The person who thinks the Metro screen is in any way universally useful is, almost be definition, an idiot. Microsoft should fire him/her.


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## Lenny (Mar 5, 2014)

There'd be a fair few job openings going at Microsoft, then. Might get my CV in...

Personally, I hate Metro -- it's what's keeping me from upgrading, even with the changes 8.1 brought -- but I still think that interface designers need to design for more than just the keyboard and mouse**.

But I don't agree with being forced to use a certain interface.




**But don't take this as me saying I think they should design for touch, or gestures, or something else Sci-Fi, as the primary method of interaction. I'm here with a keyboard and mouse, I want to be able to use them to do everything. Interface design should take notes from responsive design in the web space, which designs first for the smallest display and then gets incrementally larger. If you're going to design for touchscreens, brilliant, just design first for a keyboard, mouse, and tiny screen, and go from there. Sure, it's hard, but what does it matter at those wages?


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## Ursa major (Mar 5, 2014)

I should have mentioned in the previous post (although I have mentioned it before), that my Windows 8.1 machine does not have a touchscreen -- the desktop PV does (it's an all-in1), and a bl**dy nuisance it can be -- so is even less suitable for a Metro-based O/S.


Oh, and if thousands of Microsoft employees have to be fired to get them in touch () with the real world, so be it.


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## Overread (Mar 6, 2014)

I thought the guy in charge of interface design did get fired/rapidly left after Win 8 went out. 

The problem is big businesses don't want to admit weakness; sadly this might mean we have to go through several generations of this silly interface approach as they slowly work back toward a PC focused design.


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## lonewolfwanderer (Mar 10, 2014)

Overread said:


> Lenny I don't buy that argument. Casual users are indeed not going to go hunting for things, so why suddenly change the entire interface that has been a staple for 20-30 years? That user group is going to be the very first to be not only totally lost, but also unable to actually find what they want where they want it - even if its presented in a new up-front fashion.
> 
> There are also things that don't make any sense - the metro style of presentation prevents having two windows open at once - you can't have a pdf and calculator open and visible at the same time (can in normal windows).
> 
> ...



If Microsoft wishes to remain in the competitive market, they, like intel. etc who follow Moore's Law, have to come out with something new every 2 years. Otherwise they'd lose their market.

And a new version of Windows (which is effectively a new operating system) is supposed to be newly written code, i.e built from the scratch up. Windows is good, but a UI that has hardly changed since Windows 3 isn't going to cut it, both in keeping with trends and in keeping up with moore's law. Which is why they are introducing different concepts. (We won't progress if we refuse to change).

Not only that, but Microsoft's two major competitors (Apple and Google) are both aiming for a unified OS. Naturally, Microsoft doesn't want to lose out on this, nor lose to them, so they are trying to implement something different.

I like windows 8 quite a bit. Including the Metro screen. Even when they revert to the old start menu, they should keep the metro menu there. Give users a choice of using either the metro menu or the original start menu. Then it comes down to personal style choice.

And regards to opening two Apps at once... when you've opened the metro-style app, if you place your mouse at the top of the screen, it should turn into a hand. Once this happens, click and drag down to the left (or right) and the app should pop into a smaller window (that you can adjust), and allow you to open a second app in the large empty space on the opposite side of the app.


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## Starlyte (May 30, 2014)

I couldn't agree more with you. Mozilla (Firefox & Seamonkey) are both stable, mature, multi purpose browsers, especially Seamonkey if you go to podcasts, RSS site news, or development of your own web site.
IE is strongly contra indicated by many web sites, and is, to be polite, slightly holy, and not in the religious sense.
They are both free, and often update, free also, to avoid any security issue.
Also you can personalize them, with add-ons and themes, very easily.

As for Microsoft being competitive, it isn't and hasn't been for a long time.
First off, it's the Hackers favorite target. Wonder why?
Secondly, it's sources are not available, at least not to most people, so one Windoze is exactly like every other one. You can't use your free choice as to how a program operates on your own PC.
Third, it's damned expensive, and buying a PC ready made then getting rid of Windoze and getting the money back that the licence cost is a battle fit for a Titan.
Apple is the choice of artists and musicians, if they can afford it, and don't want Open Source software, or at least an OS open.
So that leaves Linux, which over the years has got so easy to install, user friendly, free as always, is the base of Android, which is more popular than iOS, and now accepts all hardware. Some hardware constructors are even supplying Linux drivers now.
I'm biased, but not without reason. You can download a Live CD of a Linux distribution, and try it on your PC without installing it on a HDD. 
Go to a Linux forum, take a tour of the Live Distributions, and just try one out. The first difference you'll notice is that you haven't paid a single cent/penny or whatever for it. Then you'll see the real advantages, such as the ease of use, the choice of programs, all free. Try it and give yourself a chance to get on better in the virtual world.


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## Starlyte (May 30, 2014)

Leisha said:


> *O*PERA FTW!!! (How I've missed doing that here!)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Firefox and Seamonkey have changeable refresh authorizations. Although I've tried Opera, it just hasn't stuck, it's getting better, but I still prefer the Mozilla based browsers, as they are much more mature and have such an enormous list of add-ons, you can't get through looking at them all .
As for using an older IE, it would be so full of security issues, which is why it's been updated, that the PC would be a real Bio Hazard , after a tour on the net.
Not, IMO, a good option, unless you can re-write IE's code and make it safe. But, evidently, if you could do that you wouldn't be asking about it on this forum.  
Leisha, when I looked this was the last post, but I don't know when the thread started...um  maybe a while?

Ursa M, yes M$ do tell the makers they must sell their PC's with a Windoze license, but you don't have to keep M$ on a new PC, and the maker has to pay you back the cost of the unwanted OS...in EU in principal...but I've heard that it's a harder thing in practice, although it is the law. I buy pieces, put them together (a bit like Lego?), and install what I want to. But that's me, and not every one's a PC nutter


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## Overread (May 31, 2014)

Honestly if you buy something and then ask to send part of it back that's a nightmare. It's like ordering lunch and when the order comes (not before) wanting to send the sauce dribbled all over it back. 

If you want a PC without windows on it just:
1) Get a PC from somewhere that isn't a big-box major store - most small scale local PC shops will do constructed machines and will install whatever OS and software you want onto it. 

2) Get the parts yourself and do it at home - so long as you've got decent finger control and a small screwdriver and some patience its very easy to do today. An hour or two watching youtube assembly videos just to get an idea of things; followed by reading the manuals that come with things then just sit down and put it all together.


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