# Timeless - NBC's "Hard SF" & "Historical" TT Series



## REBerg

New fall offering on NBC

Timeless: Official Trailer


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## WaylanderToo

Sounds promising - will try a vpn to watch the trailer

Timeless (TV series) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ctg

> _Supernatural _creator Eric Kripke brings a new high concept science fiction drama called _Timeless_ to NBC this fall. _Timeless _pairs up a scientist, a soldier, and a historian to stop a time-traveling criminal named Garcia Flynn from using a time machine to destroy the United States via its past. But between the unpredictable nature of tampering with the past and a possible hidden connection between Flynn and the team meant to stop them, there's looks to be a lot more to _Timeless _than period costumes and new looks at famous moments in time.
> 
> Goran Visnjic stars as Flynn, while Abigail Spencer plays the historian leading the team sent to stop him. Malcolm Barrett (Lem from _Better Off Ted_) also stars as a black scientist who is hesitant about traveling through time due to America's uncomfortable past with racism.
> 
> _Timeless _premieres on October 3rd at 10 PM/9 PM central.



I am taking a leap of faith here, and claim this series is going to base itself on the "hard" science fiction even though the whole concept still lies quit firmly in realms of speculation. Thing is that over the years we have seen so many TT series that have scratched the surface on hard, actual science, without claiming it to be "it." But, this series is basing itself on the actual history and to the fact that paradoxes happen in the universe. 

And for that we have actual mathematics and tests, which have proven that by using quantum technology, we actually break the boundaries of one universe and apply multiverse theorem in practice. At the moment, you can see it happening in the heart of D-Wave's machine, where the stateless qubits go into parallel "worlds" to get the result. 

So by just looking at the idea and watching the trailers I feel this is going to be as good as just finished Continuum. What do you think?


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## BAYLOR

i find this show intriguing.


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## Cli-Fi

ctg said:


> I am taking a leap of faith here, and claim this series is going to base itself on the "hard" science fiction even though the whole concept still lies quit firmly in realms of speculation. Thing is that over the years we have seen so many TT series that have scratched the surface on hard, actual science, without claiming it to be "it." But, this series is basing itself on the actual history and to the fact that paradoxes happen in the universe.
> 
> And for that we have actual mathematics and tests, which have proven that by using quantum technology, we actually break the boundaries of one universe and apply multiverse theorem in practice. At the moment, you can see it happening in the heart of D-Wave's machine, where the stateless qubits go into parallel "worlds" to get the result.
> 
> So by just looking at the idea and watching the trailers I feel this is going to be as good as just finished Continuum. What do you think?



I'm going to watch this to see what they do about the paradoxes. I tried to watch Legends of Tomorrow, but I just couldn't get into it. The bad guy was just way too over the top evil, it was a bit unbelievable that they needed time travel to stop him just because he had time travel. He was also way to uninteresting to devote a whole season to tracking him down around time. Though part of that may be my bias against anything DC Comics does. So I hope they do something different in that regard. The plots seems dangerously similar sans superheros.

Timeless can be great, but I am not expecting much from a generic time machine story line. However, not expecting much is usually a good thing for me going into pilot season.


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## REBerg

*1.01 Pilot*
I liked the premiere. Seems like the only rule, so far, is banning travel to anywhen travelers could meet themselves, including points they have previously traveled. That takes care of some of the possible paradoxes.
The opening episode seemed to steer a course somewhere in between an unalterable timeline and the Butterfly Effect. Changing a historical event had consequences, but not the immense consequences normally theorized.
So far, so good.


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## WaylanderToo

are they from St Mary's then?


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## REBerg

WaylanderToo said:


> are they from St Mary's then?


???


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## TheDustyZebra

I liked this one! And, incidentally, while searching IMDB to see if that guy really was Max Headroom (he was), I found another actor in the show who went to school with my husband.


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## WaylanderToo

REBerg said:


> ???



A reference to a (semi) obscure (but hugely enjoyable) series  

The Chronicles of St Mary's series by Jodi Taylor


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## The Bluestocking

REBerg said:


> *1.01 Pilot*
> I liked the premiere. Seems like the only rule, so far, is banning travel to anywhen travelers could meet themselves, including points they have previously traveled. That takes care of some of the possible paradoxes.
> The opening episode seemed to steer a course somewhere in between an unalterable timeline and the Butterfly Effect. Changing a historical event had consequences, but not the immense consequences normally theorized.
> So far, so good.



My sentiments exactly


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## REBerg

WaylanderToo said:


> A reference to a (semi) obscure (but hugely enjoyable) series
> 
> The Chronicles of St Mary's series by Jodi Taylor


Ah! Sounds similar. Maybe good retirement fare.


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## REBerg

The Bluestocking said:


> My sentiments exactly


I generally don't warm up to characters in a new show for a few episodes, but I liked the leads in this one almost immediately. Maybe because they remind me (a little) of Pete and Myka?


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## ctg

The second episode is coming over this weekend. So I'll reserve my judgement to there, but so far it has looked good. Very good in fact, I might rewatch the pilot with headphones on and just enjoy the paradoxes. But as a note, writing your characters in the same existence at the same time is a nightmare for a writer. Especially, if they're holding the world, on their own, in their minds.

As in science, theoretically same matter cannot exist in the same continuum without resulting in chaotic consequences. But if their quantum states aren't the same then it would be easier, but it would also mean that the second entity would be different to the original.

How that is done? I don't know. But I do know that going far back in time and you have chances of erasing yourself from the history. It might seem a little at the first hand, but eventually just aimlessly killing people, or letting them live, you also meddle with your own timeline.

Time-travel is very serious business to anyone other than an observer. Do you think JJA knew that when he wrote them in the Fringe?


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## ctg

Oh man, Monday. Why it couldn't be on Sunday night or Saturday evening?


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## Parson

REBerg said:


> *1.01 Pilot*
> I liked the premiere. Seems like the only rule, so far, is banning travel to anywhen travelers could meet themselves, including points they have previously traveled. That takes care of some of the possible paradoxes.
> The opening episode seemed to steer a course somewhere in between an unalterable timeline and the Butterfly Effect. Changing a historical event had consequences, but not the immense consequences normally theorized.
> So far, so good.



I also liked the first episode quite a bit. I wasn't quite sure about how the "came back in pieces" should be understood. ---- Also their time machines would seem to be big interest grabbers, and not being able to land in a "where" would seem to be a major hangup. But..... I'm going to take #2 and give it a look.



ctg said:


> Oh man, Monday. Why it couldn't be on Sunday night or Saturday evening?



No DVR or VCR? I love my DVR... All show, no commercials.


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## REBerg

After two episodes, I still like the show.
So far, neither the good nor the bad guys have able to change major historical events to initiate massive changes in the future. I'm wondering why the less significant changes made have altered Lucy's life but have had no effects on the lives of fellow travelers Wyatt and Rufus -- at least none that have shown.
I probably should just sit back and enjoy the show.


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## ctg

I am wondering about the scans and how much gets altered because of the changes in the timeline.


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## Parson

REBerg said:


> I'm wondering why the less significant changes made have altered Lucy's life but have had no effects on the lives of fellow travelers Wyatt and Rufus -- at least none that have shown.



Spoilers hidden



Spoiler



I thought that was pretty well explained in that one of the Hindenburg survivors descendants marries her mother instead of the person she thought was her father. Viola, no sister.


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## WaylanderToo

well just finshed E1 - and I have to say I really like it. Some nice touches and also some sad reminders that 'bygone times' were not always for the better.

Sign me up for the season (if it continues like this!)


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## REBerg

Parson said:


> Spoilers hidden
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that was pretty well explained in that one of the Hindenburg survivors descendants marries her mother instead of the person she thought was her father. Viola, no sister.


I didn't see it in comparison to the other main characters. Duh!
*light bulb shines over my head*


Spoiler



Lucy is the only one of the three time travelers who has had an ancestor affected by one of the changes in the timeline. Thus, her mother never had cancer, and Lucy never had a sister.
I imagine Wyatt and Rufus will have similar changes in their lives resulting from changes made in coming trips to the past.


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## ctg

The one thing they haven't really explained the ability of how they track vessels. In theory, the newer vessel leaves a measurable signal that the rescue ship follows through time. It'll also means they are able to be in the same place to observe and alter the events. But, not for once they have claimed to be able to measure time flux, even through it's observable that the vessels can track the entry and exit signal in the stream.

What I mean that for the technology to exits and for it to be able to do the function, they've a poor way to show that they have ability to measure and record time fluctuations without a traveller. Yet, both vessel crews trump through the time as if they don't have a slightest idea about creating paradoxes, which ultimately affect the fate of whole civilisations. 

Who knows what the alterations cause in the future? 

It hasn't been written, but it it certainly shaped by allowing travellers into the events as actors and not observers. In certain way Timeless is proper material for the dark autumn horror and scifi months. But in the other, I'm kind of glad that the future is locked to Twelve Monkey like full blown out chaos. 

Timeless is a show of temporal agents participating in historical events without having a real clue of what the alterations cause down the line. Yet, it's really captivating and a really good series that uses almost everything we know about the factual science.


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## BAYLOR

3 episodes  so far  and still terrific.


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## ctg

I have been thinking about the Hard SF status and Time-Travel flair that they have in this historical show. Basically TT the producers are showing is hard to a point, but I believe it isn't going too hard into fantasy genre. So, I don't think we are ever going to see a monster of week pattern in this show. Instead, like Baylor said, Timeless is showing a very good example of hard science mixed with historical facts and showing to the audience well known events down the line. 

But...

... like I said about the future being unknown, the hypothesis is that they have to investigate to really understand the end result. What do you think?


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## Cli-Fi

REBerg said:


> After two episodes, I still like the show.
> So far, neither the good nor the bad guys have able to change major historical events to initiate massive changes in the future. I'm wondering why the less significant changes made have altered Lucy's life but have had no effects on the lives of fellow travelers Wyatt and Rufus -- at least none that have shown.
> I probably should just sit back and enjoy the show.



This is a cool problem I have in my time travel WIP. Are we rooting for the right guys? With Time travel in the equation should you want to change things or keep things the same? What is the right way? I think Timeless will have us constantly guessing, who the good guys actually are, because isn't it obvious that Mason (the boss) is doing bad things as well?

So will the guys who want to change things namely Wyatt with his wife, end up turning on the others? He has that bit of cockiness just to get into that type of trouble. He clearly wants to change things, and Mason is telling him that he shouldn't.


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## Parson

Yes, and we have enigmatic little piece there where Garcia Flynn says to Lucy that one day she will be helping him and he seems to have a log that either she wrote, or that was written about her leaving the question open as to what has happened "up-time."


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## BAYLOR

Cli-Fi said:


> This is a cool problem I have in my time travel WIP. Are we rooting for the right guys? With Time travel in the equation should you want to change things or keep things the same? What is the right way? I think Timeless will have us constantly guessing, who the good guys actually are, because isn't it obvious that Mason (the boss) is doing bad things as well?
> 
> So will the guys who want to change things namely Wyatt with his wife, end up turning on the others? He has that bit of cockiness just to get into that type of trouble. He clearly wants to change things, and Mason is telling him that he shouldn't.



I can think of a few historic  events Id love to change.


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## ctg

What did you guys thought about the Alomos episode and handover of the Bowie knife? I know it's a real deal. All watchers know same thing, but if you take an item out from the time-line and transport it to future, he are you going to authenticate, when it skipped history and it wasn't subjugated to the atom bomb tests for example. 

A pawn owner would immediately see its prime condition and think it as a fake even though the item in question was handed to down by the creator himself. Same thing would apply to every other item as well, but what's really intriguing is are those two 9 mm cases that were left on Alamo's battlefield. Wouldn't an archaeologist find that question really intriguing? "How can you explain two modern, traceable cases that are so old and too modern for being important artefacts associated to the Alamo's case?"

Do we need to start applying tin foil around?


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## Cli-Fi

I am really enjoying this series, a lot more than I should. It's on the same basic level as S.H.I.E.L.D and I am loving the Rittenhouse mythology that they keep throwing at us which makes you keep guessing about what their true intentions are and who they even are. Now it really seems like the team is on the wrong side, being that if Flynn is right, that means all of history is on the wrong side... Early on I suspected that Mason Industries was a front for something, that guy just didn't sit right with me. He had to be in cohorts with someone.


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## REBerg

Great cliffhanger ending for the "fall finale."
I'm thinking that the actions taken in this episode are going to have greater consequences for the present than any of those taken in earlier episodes.
This show has a lot going for it in terms of plot and likeable characters.


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## Susan Boulton

Saw the pilot, and though it was good, I wouldn't call it "hard SF or, "historical." I would call it an adventure series with a lot of historical facts thrown in.


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## Cli-Fi

Once you see it you can't unsee it: Flynn always wears his apple watch in every episode in every time period no matter what. I guess he just doesn't care.


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## REBerg

Susan Boulton said:


> Saw the pilot, and though it was good, I wouldn't call it "hard SF or, "historical." I would call it an adventure series with a lot of historical facts thrown in.


An accurate description.


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## ctg

Timeless isn't hard science-fiction, because science hasn't found a way to prove time-travel possible. The engineers don't know how to build a time-machine so that we could test theories. But what scientists has proved to be correct is the multiverse theory. Parallel worlds instead of mirror worlds that you'll see in the Man in the High Castle.

If NBC would have an access to an time-machine, they would have used it. Same things applies to the BBC. I have no doubt about that, but instead of making Timeless to be a mirror copy of Doctor Who, they Americanized the product and slapped on a lot of theoretical science. Things we cannot prove to be correct, until we have a way to travel back and forth in the time. Therefore making time being a stream/funnel/loop and so forth until the dawn of end times.

In places Timeless dips into fantasy, especially with the journal paradox. It exists before it's written. Nobody really talks about it, or other paradoxes that has happened during their multiple TT's. They only show the changes afterwards without devoting much of time to explain how the scientists would try their damnest to understand: "How these things are possible?" and "Is there anything we can do about it?" 

So instead of going down that sort of narrative, the plot in the Timeless is as fantastical as it is in the Doctor Who, except in the Timeless you haven't seen alien species or fantastical creatures. All that you'll ever see are the 'historical settings' and at some point 'a vision from the future.'

They do very well with their placing. That I have to admit, because all places Timeless team has visited has been believable. It's just they cannot compete in the detail with the Man in the High Castle. Amazon clearly has done remarkable job in that job, making it better than 11-22-63. 

King's series never saw the budget but what's equal is that both are fairly complex for an average viewer to understand. Put it up a notch and both are understandable, but Timeless is like Doctor Who. They both speak to an average man.


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## Parson

Timeless does take a shot at explaining things. What is in the "lifeboat" does not change.  --- Therefore the watch is not really a problem.


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## REBerg

How traumatic will it be for Agent Christopher when Lucy presents her with the flashdrive containing the memories of a life that has been erased by another jump into the past? You know that's going to happen.


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## Parson

Devastating, but then this probably moves her further into the team's corner.




Spoiler: [COLOR=#ffffff



"I'm more interested in how the bad guys are going to change now that their founder dies early.[/COLOR]"



Well, that's not how that spoiler tag is supposed to work, but at least it works.


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## Dave

I think this is a great show, but it isn't hard science fiction if you believe all time travel is fantasy. There are some big inconsistencies with the disappearing sister story-line. If her mother and father never got together and Lucy wasn't ever born then no one would remember her. Instead of old photographs with her fiance on the beach, they would instead be asking who the hell are you - which happened in _Back to the Future - _a film they referenced when Wyatt sent a telegram back to the future. It wasn't explained why that telegram didn't work either. 

I do like the fact that there is an arc story here that has been well thought out beforehand (so very much like _Continuum _in that respect_._) I don't think 'monster of the week' is the relevant term to use here though. It is more like _Sliders_ than it is like _Time Tunnel _in that things progress and change as we go on, rather than being reset each week at the end. Also there is a constant villain and evil corporation. I liked that the plutonium was stolen to make a battery so that they weren't tied down to one place to recharge, but that it also gave rise to an episode where it might have been a V2 payload. I like that the good guys might be playing for the wrong team. I hope some of the puzzles will be revealed before the end of the Season.

I've not seen it all, so a lot of the above comments are spoilers to me, but Rufus needs to fess up soon. His family can't be in as much danger from the suited man with _The Day the Earth Stood Still _car immobiliser than they already are from a possible change in the timeline. After hearing about Lucy's family problems, that would be my major concern, so tell the people you can trust about it.

While I don't see it in competition with, or even very like _Doctor Who_ at all, the original concept for _Doctor Who_ was to be exactly this - a historical based show, to educate children in history. There was an executive order that were to be *NO* bug-eyed-monsters. Of course, the second story introduced the _Daleks _and that rule book was torn up. I wonder how long it will be before_ Timeless _introduces it's own bug-eyed-monsters? _Sliders_ did it with the _Kromags _and that was when it jumped-the-shark.


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## Parson

Dave said:


> While I don't see it in competition with, or even very like _Doctor Who_ at all, the original concept for _Doctor Who_ was to be exactly this - a historical based show, to educate children in history. There was an executive order that were to be *NO* bug-eyed-monsters. Of course, the second story introduced the _Daleks _and that rule book was torn up. I wonder how long it will be before_ Timeless _introduces it's own bug-eyed-monsters? _Sliders_ did it with the _Kromags _and that was when it jumped-the-shark.



I hope the answer to that question is "never." But if it goes on for more than a season or two, I would suppose there will have to be some new and even more dangerous villains.


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## REBerg

Dave said:


> I think this is a great show, but it isn't hard science fiction if you believe all time travel is fantasy.


Time travel is always entertaining, but it is never logical. If you want to enjoy it, you can't get overly analytical.


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## Cli-Fi

Dave said:


> I think this is a great show, but it isn't hard science fiction if you believe all time travel is fantasy. There are some big inconsistencies with the disappearing sister story-line. If her mother and father never got together and Lucy wasn't ever born then no one would remember her. Instead of old photographs with her fiance on the beach, they would instead be asking who the hell are you - which happened in _Back to the Future - _a film they referenced when Wyatt sent a telegram back to the future. It wasn't explained why that telegram didn't work either.
> 
> I do like the fact that there is an arc story here that has been well thought out beforehand (so very much like _Continuum _in that respect_._) I don't think 'monster of the week' is the relevant term to use here though. It is more like _Sliders_ than it is like _Time Tunnel _in that things progress and change as we go on, rather than being reset each week at the end. Also there is a constant villain and evil corporation. I liked that the plutonium was stolen to make a battery so that they weren't tied down to one place to recharge, but that it also gave rise to an episode where it might have been a V2 payload. I like that the good guys might be playing for the wrong team. I hope some of the puzzles will be revealed before the end of the Season.
> 
> I've not seen it all, so a lot of the above comments are spoilers to me, but Rufus needs to fess up soon. His family can't be in as much danger from the suited man with _The Day the Earth Stood Still _car immobiliser than they already are from a possible change in the timeline. After hearing about Lucy's family problems, that would be my major concern, so tell the people you can trust about it.
> 
> While I don't see it in competition with, or even very like _Doctor Who_ at all, the original concept for _Doctor Who_ was to be exactly this - a historical based show, to educate children in history. There was an executive order that were to be *NO* bug-eyed-monsters. Of course, the second story introduced the _Daleks _and that rule book was torn up. I wonder how long it will be before_ Timeless _introduces it's own bug-eyed-monsters? _Sliders_ did it with the _Kromags _and that was when it jumped-the-shark.



Yes, with timeless you have to go in knowing that you have to suspend disbelief. I see it as a mix between Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Sliders. There are plenty of problems with the timeline however. And something tells me that they are beginning not to care about trying to fix it. There was that caution in perhaps the first two episodes, but now it's a free for all. They are killing way too many people close to actual history, who are just removed enough from the famous legends we all know. It's a bit unbelievable that the only sighting of them throughout all of this is in a NASA basement.  

The caution that was there in the first two episodes is now gone, replaced by that sheer American bravado which works well enough. However, it is getting dangerously close to paradoxes that could or could not destroy the universe if whatever event that they messed up didn't turn out the way it really happened. You could even say that it jumped the shark in episode two with the assassination of Lincoln. I am shocked that nothing more drastic other than Lucy losing her sister, has happened in modern times. Are you telling me that if John Wilkes Booth didn't kill Lincoln, the universe would be A-OK with that??? Of course, I am probably over thinking this. 

Obviously, Agent Christopher knows that her life can be messed up due to this, but it's like the other characters don't even seem to mind. That or they have no lives? But if they have no lives, why aren't they not suddenly living life? How could you even have a stable relationship with someone who works so close to time travel knowing that in any new timeline they could end up in a different relationship living a different life? maybe that's way too complex for this show and most audiences to understand though and that's why they shy away from all that. 

I get that Lucy is the main character, but if a time travel story is to be more believable they need to make some stuff start happening to the other characters, too! No I am not talking about relationship drama and Rittenhouse spies. We know nothing of any of the other team member's personal lives and Agent Christopher is hardly a main character. That being said, I expect a Wyatt Zombie wife episode soon.


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## Dave

As you will gather, I'm a little behind in this, so I now understand that Lucy's real father was never the father she thought he was, and hence, the missing sister makes sense. I'm also sure, somehow that Wyatt's "Zombie Wife" will appear, but is "everything" here not somehow interconnected? Could she not have been strangled by Ritterhouse agents who knew exactly where and when she would step out of the car? And we did see Rufus's family, or at least, saw his sister and heard about the nephew. I agree that we should see more of them to have any emotional attachment if they should ever happen to disappear.

There is a school of thought that many things in history would have inevitably happened; that when we are taught in school that X War began because of Y or that A happened because of B, that in actual fact, there were many more factors involved and that at some point, maybe only slightly later, it was "fated" to happen anyway because it had the inertia of a steam-train. I think the writers subscribe to this view, and so that is why it doesn't really matter how much the characters tinker around in the past, the main thrust of history remains unchanged. I think it is also difficult to describe the ways in which the present has been changed because it would take up too much time and not be very interesting. The series _Sliders_ cleverly used the garden with the fence and broken gate as a kind of grounding in the "prime universe".

Lucy's journal ought to become apocryphal at some point though. They are changing history so much, that it is very unlikely that the two timelines could stay so close together that the journal was an accurate account of the different journey they are making.


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## Dave

I'm really liking this series, but the best line by far has to be, "He's not Wesley Snipes, trust me!" 

Edit: Closely followed by "Thank you Agent Mulder."


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## Cli-Fi

Dave said:


> I'm really liking this series, but the best line by far has to be, "He's not Wesley Snipes, trust me!"
> 
> Edit: Closely followed by "Thank you Agent Mulder."



Oh yeah they can have fun with those names, but they aren't even careful about that. :sighs:


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## ctg

The Assassination of Jesse James - Part II

It's been a while since I bothered writing about this series even though I have mentioned it in the other threads. This episode was at the same time eye-opening and a change to the norm, but it was also a humongous failure. 

I understand the need to go back to rescue a lost pilot as that is something I've been complaining about it. Timeless hasn't really shown anything other than long tales about the Writenhouse. Even when they have dived into it, nothing has come out it. Nothing other than just tales. 

Then you see the lonely hut in the middle of the forest and you find out that it is occupied by a lonely pilot. The only pilot Mason Industries had before Timeless Events began and you realise that she, the book, our antagonist and the hidden bad guys are paradoxes.

They should not have existed but they do and therefore, the tale is entablegled in the web of lies and the truth is revealed. I can almost suspect who the Writtenhouse is even though I haven't seen his face, yet.

But what made the Assassination a failure was by giving Jesse James a proper modern rifle after he recognised its value and then make him to be stupid. Jesse would have understood the value of ammo, the rifle, whole package as if he would have kept it and planned Lone Rangers assassination properly, he wouldn't ever had gone Rambo. 

Even the sound effects were unrealistic. Not talking about the size of clip. 

I think NBC really cocked it up and for that







NBC should do much better than cocking things up, when they're losing the game to Netflix's original series. Who is going to buy this s...?


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## tinkerdan

entablegled?


ctg said:


> They should not have existed but they do and therefore, the tale is entablegled in the web of lies and the truth is revealed. I can almost suspect who the Writtenhouse is even though I haven't seen his face, yet.



Damn I hate it when changing history starts messing with language.

I like the show but I haven't watched this last episode yet and I'm uncertain how they are handling the hotbed that is the legend of the Lone Ranger.


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## ctg

tinkerdan said:


> entablegled?



I know. I had to get it out from my mind just like it is with so many things these days. 



tinkerdan said:


> the hotbed that is the legend of the Lone Ranger.



Yeah. Exactly the point. What they do is very beautiful and everyone put in a lot of effort behind very complicated Timeless Event and another alteration in the timeline. But instead of just playing the act, they get the scene, the story and the act very right. The post-process edit is where they cocked it up. 

I don't know was it producers fault or if the studio interacted, but instead of pushing the series up, they spoiled whole cake. And that is sad.

Maybe it doesn't matter because the keep aiming so low, when it's very evident that they could still fix thing and be ballsy with their moves, instead of going down in the history as another failed SF/Fantasy series.


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## Cli-Fi

ctg said:


> I know. I had to get it out from my mind just like it is with so many things these days.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. Exactly the point. What they do is very beautiful and everyone put in a lot of effort behind very complicated Timeless Event and another alteration in the timeline. But instead of just playing the act, they get the scene, the story and the act very right. The post-process edit is where they cocked it up.
> 
> I don't know was it producers fault or if the studio interacted, but instead of pushing the series up, they spoiled whole cake. And that is sad.
> 
> Maybe it doesn't matter because the keep aiming so low, when it's very evident that they could still fix thing and be ballsy with their moves, instead of going down in the history as another failed SF/Fantasy series.



I think you shut down this thread with your harsh words of criticism @ctg, however I still like the show, because I have come to expect it. it's my escapism show along with Hawaii Five-0 and Agents of Shield. I don't take them too seriously either. 

The latest episodes have been revealing a bit more about Rittenhouse and how they seemingly control everything. 

In last night's episode


Spoiler



The team meets Lucy's father, and they also meet Charles Lindbergh, Ernest Hemingway, and other greats. Lucy gets her journal and the team gets taken over by The NSA. Rittenhouse is blamed for Charles becoming a Nazi sympathizer because they wanted him to be. Which is very, very interesting. It doesn't fill in all the holes, but it ramps things up a bit where I can sort of see where it is going.


 The question remains is Rittenhouse responsible for everything exciting or influential that has happened in American History? And if so, why should they continue to preserve it?


----------



## Parson

Yes, this was a bit of a revealing episode. It is now possible to see how Lucy might indeed change sides. 



Spoiler



This show played a bit loose with Lindbergh. I would say he was more of an isolationist than a Nazi supporter. He flew 50 combat missions in the Pacific theater of World War II.


----------



## ctg

Cli-Fi said:


> I think you shut down this thread with your harsh words of criticism



Sorry. 



> The question remains is Rittenhouse responsible for everything exciting or influential that has happened in American History? And if so, why should they continue to preserve it?



Not just in America. Last episode happened in the France, where people don't have an accent and where they speak perfect English. Spirit of St Lois flight inspired whole world, not just Americans. 



Parson said:


> Yes, this was a bit of a revealing episode. It is now possible to see how Lucy might indeed change sides.



I thought this was a good development. If they give the characters human face, then maybe people like me shut up.


----------



## Cli-Fi

Parson said:


> Yes, this was a bit of a revealing episode. It is now possible to see how Lucy might indeed change sides.



And that may very well be the right one.


----------



## Cli-Fi

ctg said:


> Sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> Not just in America. Last episode happened in the France, where people don't have an accent and where they speak perfect English. Spirit of St Lois flight inspired whole world, not just Americans.




Of course I know, but it's been predominately American as you pointed out with this episode taking place in Paris and there was two lines of French. So yeah, I don't see how nothing could have changed if Lindbergh crash landed and was missing for hours on end, oh he took credit anyway doesn't hold up. Those pictures of him landing in Paris are iconic.


----------



## Parson

Cli-Fi said:


> Of course I know, but it's been predominately American as you pointed out with this episode taking place in Paris and there was two lines of French. So yeah, I don't see how nothing could have changed if Lindbergh crash landed and was missing for hours on end, oh he took credit anyway doesn't hold up. Those pictures of him landing in Paris are iconic.



As with anything that did not happen, you cannot be sure what also would have happened, if what did not happen had happened.*
        *(Sounds like double speak but I believe that's clear)


----------



## Cli-Fi

Parson said:


> As with anything that did not happen, you cannot be sure what also would have happened, if what did not happen had happened.*
> *(Sounds like double speak but I believe that's clear)


Sounds like something one of President Trump's minions would say


----------



## ctg

Parson said:


> What also would have happened, if what did not happen, had happened.



I added a comma to make it clearer. This is exactly the point that was raised in the Travellers. It is the doubt that keeps me critiquing bad bits and the love for all things time-travel related.


----------



## Cli-Fi

ctg said:


> I added a comma to make it clearer. This is exactly the point that was raised in the Travellers. It is the doubt that keeps me critiquing bad bits and the love for all things time-travel related.



Still I think it's safe to say that there would be massive changes in airports and airplanes. Perhaps a slower rate of adaption and then coincidentally no 9/11 to happen on 9/11, yet they get to the future and everything is exactly the same again. It just goes to prove that this show is not something that thinks outside the monster of the week/ rittenhouse storylines.


----------



## ctg

Cli-Fi said:


> It just goes to prove that this show is not something that thinks outside the monster of the week/ rittenhouse storylines.



Indeed, except the last episode, which either proves they read the forum or then they figured out that somethings aren't going to last. I strongly believe Netflix style with massive balls is the way going forward, while the monster-of-the-week might get buried under a wave of new works that aren't afraid of pushing some boundaries.


----------



## tinkerdan

Don't you just love it when someone takes a Happen Stance


Parson said:


> As with anything that did not happen, you cannot be sure what also would have happened, if what did not happen had happened.*
> *(Sounds like double speak but I believe that's clear)


----------



## Parson

Cli-Fi said:


> Still I think it's safe to say that there would be massive changes in airports and airplanes. Perhaps a slower rate of adaption and then coincidentally no 9/11 to happen on 9/11, yet they get to the future and everything is exactly the same again. It just goes to prove that this show is not something that thinks outside the monster of the week/ rittenhouse storylines.



Can't buy this. I think the story line to be the most logical outcome. I tend to see time travel changes would be more like a pebble thrown into a pond. Some slightly significant change on target, and slight changes down line but the further down line you get the less the change is until it is all but indecipherable.


----------



## Cli-Fi

ctg said:


> Indeed, except the last episode, which either proves they read the forum or then they figured out that somethings aren't going to last. I strongly believe Netflix style with massive balls is the way going forward, while the monster-of-the-week might get buried under a wave of new works that aren't afraid of pushing some boundaries.



Supernatural is about the only sci-fi show that still gets the "literal" monster of the week episodes right head on. Even the newly released X-Files episodes seemed dated. Supernatural is 11 freaking years old, been watching it from the beginning and I have not been disappointed by an episode yet. Sure you can critique the religious mythology and all that, but in the end it's their interpretation of things.

I think the thing with Time Travel, is that it's a bit tricky to take serious. You can't interpret history. You can't interpret what would have happened if some guy other than John Wilkes Booth killed Lincoln. You just have this gut feeling that the universe would explode, like Doc Brown said, in Back to the Future.

So what's left? a big ball of wibbily wobbly timey wimey stuff. I've tried take a serious approach to time travel. I still want to do it and others like Supernatural have entered into that area, but they tend to be more subtle and not as far reaching as Timeless. or in supernatural's case, it's very easily reversible. In timeless there's just no consequences, except to move the storyline forward. EG: Wyatt's Wife. Timeless was never meant to be that show to bring time travel to the mainstream, it's a fun americana action flick that makes no sense. A lot like the first Terminator movie, but hopefully this does spark some interest in the genre. Who can read an article today about AI and not think about Skynet? Time Travel is definitely a realm of sci-fi that hasn't been entirely thought out or even cemented with any proper canon/rules. So there is room there for someone to do that.

If someone is to do it, they better get going before Marvel Phase 5 comes out. Because now that Dr. Strange has entered the mix, I can easily see all that stuff coming fruition after Phase 4 is done with. In my time travel research there is a lot of good stuff Marvel Comics has thought about with Time Travel over the years.


----------



## ctg

Cli-Fi said:


> In my time travel research there is a lot of good stuff Marvel Comics has thought about with Time Travel over the years.



To Marvel and DC Multiverse has been a big thing over the years. And it has become an accepted theory these days, not just some foil hat theory cooked under an acid dream. I haven't brought neither one of their stuff because their unique, but I've started to kind of believe that Timeless and Dr Who might be at the end of their era and the small screen fiction will move increasingly towards shows like Continuum and Travellers. 

Mrs Grey like this series. So I have no choice but to continue watching it, even though I've thought about dropping it because it doesn't do anything for me. There is no excitement, no thrill, no thought process other than 'what can I read in the other screen while the show progresses itself towards the end.' To me, personally, Timeless has lost its shine. 

I understand completely what it is and who it was created for. It's kind of sad that it loses watchers from the other end of the spectrum, because it's so safe to assume nothing bad will ever happen. Nothing major nor catastrophic. 

We see, there's still episodes to go until the season is finished.


----------



## Parson

I'm not all sure that timeless is so static in who survives as you think. I think everyone save Lucy is possibly expendable and could quite easily be replaced.


----------



## Cli-Fi

This spoilers filled article makes it sound like they are hopeful for season 2 and will pitch it to NBC in April: ‘Timeless’ Season Finale: Shawn Ryan On Big Twist & Reset For Potential Season 2. I have not watched the finale yet.


----------



## Parson

I'm not going to read the article as I want to watch the last show as well. I have it on my dVR. Maybe come back later and comment.


----------



## Cli-Fi

Parson said:


> I'm not going to read the article as I want to watch the last show as well. I have it on my dVR. Maybe come back later and comment.



here's a spoiler free article: Eric Kripke of Supernatural is the creator and he really wants a season 2. Hopefully he knows Netflix is an option too: ‘Timeless’ Awaits Renewal Decision By NBC As Season 1 Ends: Is It Out Of Time?


----------



## Parson

Thanks, got to run now, but will come back to read!


----------



## Cli-Fi

Just watched the finale tonight. It didn't have any more substance to it than the rest of the series. It completed the Flynn storyline (not Rittenhouse's) with just as much inconsistencies and holes as other episodes had. Maybe more. At least this time, they didn't do much damage to actual historic events. Just to themselves.



Spoiler



They set up a little spoiler tidbit for where season 2 could go which might hint to time travel into the future! Jiya went with them to help out Rufus and now she is experiencing some type of effects from time traveling with four people in the lifeboat. Whether her visions are glimpses into the future or glimpses of other dimensions remains to be seen and could be really exciting to explore in season 2.


 However, that might change the show too much from what it is now.

Overall I loved it. I think Wyatt (Matt Lanter) carried the entire show and I didn't like his character at first. It was a fun ride and that's really the best way to describe the show. I enjoyed it and looked forward to it every week and it is an original piece of work that was very different from anything really on TV right now. Some more Time Travel shows are coming from other networks with the same feels, and the Netflix stuff took a more serious approach to things like this. So it is refreshing to see another show that can have fun with itself and not take itself too seriously, like Timeless did.

That being said, I honestly wouldn't feel too empty if the show doesn't get renewed for Season 2. I thought the story as light as it was has been pretty much told. As mentioned in my spoiler, if they are hinting at time travel into the future. It can't go from popcorn actiony flick to 12 Monkeyish. That would ruin the flavor. All we can do for now is wait until April-May, I guess to see if the execs over at NBC have room for a little bit more creativity in their Monday night lineup again. In the past the show's saving grace might have been that it can be labelled as a sci-fi procedural and procedurals are great cash cows for syndication not to mention franchise builders, but I think Netflix's Travellers has the edge there. The other time travel shows that are coming out don't seem to be procedurals.

 Though, Time After Time easily could be. I'm just not sure how or what they will do each week chasing Jack the Ripper. At least Timeless has a larger universe to play in.


----------



## Cli-Fi

I summed up pretty much everything on this thread here: Timeless Ends It’s Run As A New Generation of Time Travel Heads to TV – JohnJFalco.com

It will be interesting to see what the new Time Travel shows do to try to be better than timeless.


----------



## Susan Boulton

To be honest I have given up on it, as I have a lot of the US shows of late.


----------



## Parson

I have liked the series quite well. But I did not really enjoy the season finale. The episode at first felt too perfect, and then it was like someone said: Hm, maybe this show will be renewed, let's offer up some potential stories to be pursued, and by the way, don't ever think anything is going to turn out alright for the main characters, after all unlikely conspiracies cannot be contained.  Minus this last episode I was really ready to watch more, now, not so much.


----------



## Cli-Fi

Parson said:


> I have liked the series quite well. But I did not really enjoy the season finale. The episode at first felt too perfect, and then it was like someone said: Hm, maybe this show will be renewed, let's offer up some potential stories to be pursued, and by the way, don't ever think anything is going to turn out alright for the main characters, after all unlikely conspiracies cannot be contained.  Minus this last episode I was really ready to watch more, now, not so much.



Totally agree with this especially the part about it seeming like they added some stuff just because they hoped they will have a season 2. The story easily could have ended on a higher note than it already did.


----------



## ctg

Parson said:


> by the way, don't ever think anything is going to turn out alright for the main characters, after all unlikely conspiracies cannot be contained.



Mum's betreal hurt and I knew from the moment Rufus were so nice that everything was going to be all right. He has never been on their side, so why would he be that way in season final in last quarter?


----------



## Cli-Fi

ctg said:


> Mum's betreal hurt and I knew from the moment Rufus were so nice that everything was going to be all right. He has never been on their side, so why would he be that way in season final in last quarter?



@ctg I think you meant Mason. Not Rufus.


----------



## ctg

Cli-Fi said:


> I think you meant Mason. Not Rufus.


Yeah. Sorry.


----------



## Dave

Cli-Fi said:


> Just watched the finale tonight. It didn't have any more substance to it than the rest of the series. It completed the Flynn storyline (not Rittenhouse's) with just as much inconsistencies and holes as other episodes had. Maybe more. At least this time, they didn't do much damage to actual historic events. Just to themselves.
> 
> However, that might change the show too much from what it is now.


I've got to agree with you all about the poor ending of the series, and that it may have been hastily rewritten when a sequel became more likely. I actually didn't mind that the series was a bit light, sometimes I need a bit of light to compensate for some of the darker TV. I think you are probably correct that the tone of the second season might change next year, possibly to compete with the other new TT series planned. That might be a mistake, or it might improve it. I'll have to see it first.


----------



## Parson

@Dave ... Never would have thought of that, but it does make some sense.


----------



## REBerg

Just finished binge-watching the last six episodes of the first season.
Overall, I enjoyed the series. As the episodes progressed, I was drawn into the plot and characters and stopped checking my old college history textbooks to see if their actions had changed any events as I recalled them.
The finale did make plenty of room for continuing the series: 



Spoiler



The attraction between Lucy and Wyatt; Jiya's visions of the future; the continuing battle against Rittenhouse)


 If NBC renews _Timeless_ for a second season, I will happily watch it.


----------



## Parson

@REBerg .... 



Spoiler



I thought that Jiya's vision was of the past. I thought that as she looked at the bridge time was rewinding for her. I never gave it a thought that it might the bridge deteriorating.


----------



## REBerg

Parson said:


> @REBerg ....
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that Jiya's vision was of the past. I thought that as she looked at the bridge time was rewinding for her. I never gave it a thought that it might the bridge deteriorating.


That is another possibility. 



Spoiler



Perhaps her vision was of an alternative present caused by her trip into the past.


----------



## Cli-Fi

REBerg said:


> That is another possibility.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps her vision was of an alternative present caused by her trip into the past.



For some reason I read this as alternative President. My head has got to get out of the politics


----------



## Cli-Fi

So has anybody watched any of the other time travel shows I mentioned that were coming out. Are they as good or worse than Timeless? I'm wondering if I should waste my time reviewing them on my website.


----------



## ctg

Cli-Fi said:


> So has anybody watched any of the other time travel shows I mentioned that were coming out. Are they as good or worse than Timeless? I'm wondering if I should waste my time reviewing them on my website.



Nextflix movie, The Discovery.


----------



## Cli-Fi

ctg said:


> Nextflix movie, The Discovery.



I could only get through half of it. It reminded me way too much of True Detective Season 2. Which wasn't bad in all, but this movie was worse than that. However, better, than any other of the Netflix Original movies that have come out. It was perplexing enough that I gave it a chance at least.

The problems however, were too great for me to ignore. It just licked the icing of what "the discovery," was for me and it tried way too hard to be deep, hard thinking, and mysterious and from what I saw it really wasn't...  As they say in the writing game. There was way too much telling! The plot with the girl was way too predictable too. Even the OA was better. A mixture of True Detective Season 2 and the OA perfectly describes this movie.

BTW, I'll admit that travelers was better than the OA

On another note to Timeless fans, if you follow their twitter it said: Signs point to #Timeless! They said they would pitch season 2 to NBC brass around this time... So. I think sings are positive for renewal.


----------



## Cli-Fi

Eric Kripke on twitter 4/18/2017: So Shawn Ryan & I pitched our hearts out for Timeless. They seemed to dig it. Rest is up to NBC. Cross everything! #RenewTimeless


----------



## Ursa major

Dave said:


> I've got to agree with you all about the poor ending of the series, and that it may have been hastily rewritten when a sequel became more likely.


The original ending of the season may have been episode 13 (the one where there was a foiled plot to destroy the Mothership): as late as the 1st of November, NBC ordered three more episodes. Was there time to change any of the earlier episodes by then, given that the first five had already been on the air?

In my opinion, Episode 10, the one where Lucy was, at its end, whisked away by Flynn, might have worked as an "end of season" cliff-hangar, but I doubt that this was ever the plan.

As it was, I thought that finding out what we should have guessed, that Lucy mother was with Rittenhouse, sets up a new dynamic for season two (if it's made).


----------



## Cli-Fi

Timeless unofficially seems like a go for Season 2. Won't know officially until May. The numbers look good. They've been doing a lot of press, and their twitter is incredibly still active. Since nobody watched either Making History, or Time After Time which were it's too biggest broadcasting competitions and since Eric Kripke is an amazing showrunner. It could even be a long lasting drama if moved to fridays @ 8:

Cancel Bear vs. NBC, week 31: ‘Timeless’ will get more time, ‘Taken’ still in limbo


----------



## Dave

Good. I liked 'Timeless' and can't understand why it had to fight to get 13 episodes. 'Time after Time' is a poor substitute.


----------



## Cli-Fi

Dave said:


> Good. I liked 'Timeless' and can't understand why it had to fight to get 13 episodes. 'Time after Time' is a poor substitute.



I seem to recall Supernatural experiencing something similar. Eric's other show. High profile scifi is hard to sell and apparently even harder to invest more time into. Especially on the big three networks. WB/CW was a bit friendlier to these things. But Eric is laughing all the way to the bank now. Look how long that's lasted. It's going on 12 years and counting...


----------



## Ursa major

I'm glad they seem to be getting a second season.

For me, the main issue is what the season arc will be. In season 1, the main driver was chasing after Flynn, which solved a lot of the plot issues (specifically why the various locations and times were chosen, and the order in which they were visited). As the "Lifeboat" team began to catch up with Flynn, his motivations and choices became a bit more obvious, but they were still mostly seen at a distance.

With Flynn out of the picture -- unless he's freed in episode 1 and gets access to either the "Mothership" or the "Lifeboat" -- we'll have to fall back on whatever reason the show's makers have assigned to Rittenhouse for wanting a time machine. (They were, after all, funding the project.) So instead of Flynn's desperation to destroy Rittenhouse (desperation that could, perhaps, explain why his decisions may sometimes have appeared somewhat random), we'll have the implementation of Rittenhouse's plan... a plan that was, presumably, worked out in some detail in advance, and was only put on hold when Flynn stole the "Mothership".

This risks some in the audience thinking, "Why are the team going there?" each week, which will put extra pressure on the show's makers to come up with something plausible (at least in retrospect**). I hope they manage it.


(I suppose another driver of season 2's arc could be the discovery of another time machine built by someone else entirely, at which point our trio will be sent chasing after them. I can't say I'm feeling very warm towards this idea -- it would look implausibly convenient -- although I suppose it depends (as ever) on how well it's done.)


** - In the early episodes, the team may be given a specific goal, but no context, and that would be fine by me. Towards the end of the season, though, they'll have to make an attempt (or several attempts) to work out what is going on -- i.e. to determine what Rittenhouse's plan is -- if only to know how to sabotage it, otherwise there wouldn't really be much of a season's arc at all.


----------



## Cli-Fi

Ursa major said:


> I'm glad they seem to be getting a second season.
> 
> For me, the main issue is what the season arc will be. In season 1, the main driver was chasing after Flynn, which solved a lot of the plot issues (specifically why the various locations and times were chosen, and the order in which they were visited). As the "Lifeboat" team began to catch up with Flynn, his motivations and choices became a bit more obvious, but they were still mostly seen at a distance.
> 
> With Flynn out of the picture -- unless he's freed in episode 1 and gets access to either the "Mothership" or the "Lifeboat" -- we'll have to fall back on whatever reason the show's makers have assigned to Rittenhouse for wanting a time machine. (They were, after all, funding the project.) So instead of Flynn's desperation to destroy Rittenhouse (desperation that could, perhaps, explain why his decisions may sometimes have appeared somewhat random), we'll have the implementation of Rittenhouse's plan... a plan that was, presumably, worked out in some detail in advance, and was only put on hold when Flynn stole the "Mothership".
> 
> This risks some in the audience thinking, "Why are the team going there?" each week, which will put extra pressure on the show's makers to come up with something plausible (at least in retrospect**). I hope they manage it.
> 
> 
> (I suppose another driver of season 2's arc could be the discovery of another time machine built by someone else entirely, at which point our trio will be sent chasing after them. I can't say I'm feeling very warm towards this idea -- it would look implausibly convenient -- although I suppose it depends (as ever) on how well it's done.)
> 
> 
> ** - In the early episodes, the team may be given a specific goal, but no context, and that would be fine by me. Towards the end of the season, though, they'll have to make an attempt (or several attempts) to work out what is going on -- i.e. to determine what Rittenhouse's plan is -- if only to know how to sabotage it, otherwise there wouldn't really be much of a season's arc at all.



I really hope that they go with Flynn as the hero of the story theory that has been floated. (Maybe he escapes prison because he has already experience it and knows what's going to happen EG Groundhog day episode.) Flynn as hero makes the most sense, especially in the way that we literally worship these vigilante super heroes in other properties. Flynn is that same exact guy. He knows Rittenhouse is evil at its core, and does anything he could to stop them. He doesn't care about history, because he knows that history is a fraud perpetrated by these evil forces. Lucy et al are basically reluctantly working for rittenhouse and I am sure in a season 2 more of the team members will realize this.


----------



## ctg

The audience needs to see a definitely that Rittenhouse is absolutely evil, because at the moment they could still be good guy and our "heros" really misunderstanding their actions/plans. Flynn can go and another more sinister force can raise - if the producers wants that. 

If they want to go down fantasy line, they can even include mystical watchers/police force etc, but that thing has been done to death. To be honest most bold way would be to see the future and the changes before they return and show Lucy's struggle in middle of all this mess. 

But I'm not one of the writers. Just a critic. It's their story and they should go boldy with their vision. Maybe even touch the theory of the aliens being TT's and they ultimately try to control the humanity through alternated events.


----------



## Cli-Fi

ctg said:


> The audience needs to see a definitely that Rittenhouse is absolutely evil, because at the moment they could still be good guy and our "heros" really misunderstanding their actions/plans. Flynn can go and another more sinister force can raise - if the producers wants that.
> 
> If they want to go down fantasy line, they can even include mystical watchers/police force etc, but that thing has been done to death. To be honest most bold way would be to see the future and the changes before they return and show Lucy's struggle in middle of all this mess.
> 
> But I'm not one of the writers. Just a critic. It's their story and they should go boldy with their vision. Maybe even touch the theory of the aliens being TT's and they ultimately try to control the humanity through alternated events.



haha I know this is a dummy show, but its kinda obvious that Rittenhouse is evil. If the audience doesn't get that by now I don't know what to tell you. They gotta pay attention more. Sure, one might not trust Flynn, but all these guys are powerful figures in history connected by a secret organization.   I have a sneaking suspicion that Rittenhouse = lizard people. That would be awesome!


----------



## ctg

Cli-Fi said:


> I have a sneaking suspicion that Rittenhouse = lizard people. That would be awesome!



I would rather see some epic observers with own agenda than traditional UFO aliens. If they have to use those then I'd love them going balls deep into the myths. Although if I really push it then follow some Star Trek lines and establish first contact rules.


----------



## Cli-Fi

ctg said:


> I would rather see some epic observers with own agenda than traditional UFO aliens. If they have to use those then I'd love them going balls deep into the myths. Although if I really push it then follow some Star Trek lines and establish first contact rules.



That's exactly what I've been thinking about. If Rittenhouse turns out to be lizard people, and Rittenhouse = the Illuminati. It would be a fun take away to delve deep into those conspiracy theories that are oh so popular in pop culture today. With fun Time travel element to boot. I wouldn't put it past them to go that direction. Supernatural has already evolved so much over the years. I don't doubt it.


----------



## Ursa major

Lucy _can't_ be a lizard person!


Can she...?


----------



## Dave

Keep her away from your hamsters and gerbils.


----------



## Cli-Fi

Ursa major said:


> Lucy _can't_ be a lizard person!
> 
> 
> Can she...?


Fox Mulder is on the case.


----------



## Ursa major

So the truth is out there, then...?


♪_ starts whistling_ ♪


----------



## Parson

Cli-Fi said:


> but its kinda obvious that Rittenhouse is evil. If the audience doesn't get that by now I don't know what to tell you. They gotta pay attention more.



Did you watch "Alias?" They did a complete 180 on who the good guys were, actually more than once.

I for one who hate a "lizard people" scenario.


----------



## Cli-Fi

Ursa major said:


> So the truth is out there, then...?
> 
> 
> ♪_ starts whistling_ ♪



The X-Files just got renewed for season 11. If our theories turn out to be true and it turns into a conspiracy show, X-Files need to be crossed over with it. I know they are on different channels but one can always dream!


----------



## Cli-Fi

Parson said:


> Did you watch "Alias?" They did a complete 180 on who the good guys were, actually more than once.
> 
> I for one who hate a "lizard people" scenario.



I never watched Alias, but always heard good things. During that time, I was looking for new show, and then I discovered the X-Files after much research. Yeah, I was 6 when the X-Files came on at first. So that's why I didn't watch it when it was on TV.


----------



## ctg

Cli-Fi said:


> If our theories turn out to be true and it turns into a conspiracy show, X-Files need to be crossed over with it.



Well, cross-overs rarely happen but it's possible. Nobody knows that world events has been altered and historical figures traumatised if not dead after our heros has paid a visit. But who says Fox Mulder could not have a theory in this?

Seriously how many historical events they are going to put in the next show and when comes to a point when they do something completely irreversible? If you have a TT coming from outside the event show, they might travel up and down objects history, seeing things like a tourist and if one of the events cockup their "holiday" they might come looking. At the moment trope demands that the TT is from Earth.

Thing with the Timeless is that Rittenhouse invented Time-Travel before it became a though in HR Wells mind. Supposedly hundreds of years before they even began fiddling with the lifeboat technology.


----------



## Cli-Fi

ctg said:


> Well, cross-overs rarely happen but it's possible. Nobody knows that world events has been altered and historical figures traumatised if not dead after our heros has paid a visit. But who says Fox Mulder could not have a theory in this?
> 
> Seriously how many historical events they are going to put in the next show and when comes to a point when they do something completely irreversible? If you have a TT coming from outside the event show, they might travel up and down objects history, seeing things like a tourist and if one of the events cockup their "holiday" they might come looking. At the moment trope demands that the TT is from Earth.
> 
> Thing with the Timeless is that Rittenhouse invented Time-Travel before it became a though in HR Wells mind. Supposedly hundreds of years before they even began fiddling with the lifeboat technology.



Haha it's funny you mention HG Wells time machine. In research, as far as I can tell, that is just about the only standard in Time Travel fiction. HG Wells time machine was the first one. Many medias have mentioned HG Wells and his time machine if they do time travel too. In my WIP, he actually created it in real life too. 

The funny thing is though, Mulder wouldn't want to help Lucy and the time team. He would want to help Flynn.


----------



## ctg

When you study the TT theory and supposed travellers, you come to point where some of things goes really mythical and you see two hypothesis. One, Travellers are from a parallel world and are here to observe the events. Two, they are from another world and they travel through the time-stream to observe and manipulate the events. 

Both of those hypothesis are firmly wrapped in tinfoil and it's very likely that they get ridiculed. Which is kind of sad, because when you look at the Travellers we have so very little information on actual events. In Timeless world around 150 knows about the altered events and if one of those leak, it should almost automatically mean that these are investigated by a large number of people and most possibly, talked about in the conspiracy related sites. Including few dedicated ones. 

Still that isn't even a possibility even though Flynn and companions spent large amount of time outside the controlled environment. Even during the Events people could have noticed some things being alternated as often the time-travelling devices are left in the spots that you classically find from the illustrations of UFO literature. The ball and its tripod like prints are in fact classical descriptions. 

If you'll turn whole thing ninety degrees and assume that the TT came from the sky then you can assume that same Traveller could have used the device to cross distances between the solar systems. All they would have needed is the device. Time will flow around out and allows Travellers to travel in a bubble where time is kind of stagnant. You would age in there as normal, but the device itself would allow TTing in the target gravity wells pretty freely. Taken ofcourse that the device doesn't encounter singularities, because who knows what really happens when super massive gravity generator distorts norms and laws that make the TT possible.  

All I'm saying that the producers have a great freedom to move around and still be within the plausible limits of current ideas around the Time-Travel. Timeless hasn't explained how the device is actually being able to change location and not being anchored to a singular fixed location. It just happens.


----------



## Cli-Fi

ctg said:


> All I'm saying that the producers have a great freedom to move around and still be within the plausible limits of current ideas around the Time-Travel. Timeless hasn't explained how the device is actually being able to change location and not being anchored to a singular fixed location. It just happens.



Yeah, if you read my WIP, you would see that things are starting to get heated between the people who believe in either reality. It's like a religion really. That there are multiple points in time in which you can never ever ever impact with time travel no matter how hard you try (Wyatt's wife) or that there is this one constant point in time that cannot be altered. Timeless hasn't really touched upon that theory as of yet (maybe lucy turning to go help flynn), but if allowed to continue I'm sure they will revist Flynn's past and show why and how he stole the time machine. Eventually leading us to the inner workings of Rittenhouse and why they have it. The funny thing is with my WIP, belief in the multiple constant theory is quietly being accepted by my main character and his cronies and this new belief system causes much controversy within the Time Travel community there.

Timeless doesn't run that deep though so any leaving out of how the time machine actually works could just be an after thought. I had that same problem myself. I could have gone the hard science route in my novel, but if we knew how the time machine operated that would just take away the mystery and the conflict. That's why I don't think time travel fiction needs to go into much detail, about how it all works. Doctor who has timey-whimey-stuff. My time machines are basically apple products, (they just work). The time machine in back to the future had the flux capacitor and timeless has Rufus.   That's enough for mainstream audiences anyway.


----------



## Dave

ctg said:


> Timeless hasn't explained how the device is actually being able to change location and not being anchored to a singular fixed location. It just happens.


In reality, it would be problematic to anchor any time machine to a fixed point on an Earth spinning around its axis, orbiting the Sun, which is itself circling the centre of the Milky Way, which is also expanding away from the centre of the Universe. Time Travel is fantasy, and the convention is that HG Wells machine was anchored in his front room, while Doctor Who's TARDIS moves in space and in time. If you have to choose between them, the "being able to move" choice is the more believable.


----------



## Cli-Fi

Dave said:


> the "being able to move" choice is the more believable.


Don't tell that to the characters in my WIP. It would be blaspheme!


----------



## Ursa major

ctg said:


> In Timeless world around 150 knows about the altered events and if one of those leak, it should almost automatically mean that these are investigated by a large number of people and most possibly, talked about in the conspiracy related sites. Including few dedicated ones.


Do that number of people _really_ know about the altered events, as opposed to knowing that people can be sent back in time? They could only know about history being altered if they were told.

I don't think anyone who _has_ to know what has happened -- the time travellers and a handful of others (including Lucy's father and mother) -- is encouraged to talk about any of it... if for no other reason than Lucy sister isn't going to be the only person who might cease to exist. _Everyone_ is at risk of disappearing, including all those working at the site. Some of them, if they knew the risk, might think that preserving their own, or their family's, existence would make it worth their while sabotaging the project, so it is best that they do not know.


----------



## Cli-Fi

Ursa major said:


> Do that number of people _really_ know about the altered events, as opposed to knowing that people can be sent back in time? They could only know about history being altered if they were told.
> 
> I don't think anyone who _has_ to know what has happened -- the time travellers and a handful of others (including Lucy's father and mother) -- is encouraged to talk about any of it... if for no other reason than Lucy sister isn't going to be the only person who might cease to exist. _Everyone_ is at risk of disappearing, including all those working at the site. Some of them, if they knew the risk, might think that preserving their own, or their family's, existence would make it worth their while sabotaging the project, so it is best that they do not know.



The problem with this deep thinking about the show, are the relationships. Timeless needs Wyatt and Lucy together and now Rufus and Jiya. So no, not everyone is at risk. It's mostly due to the needs of the show and not in any practical sense, because you wouldn't really be able to maintain any relationships outside the time team let alone know what happened to your friends yesterday in a real world time travel scenario without some type of time travel guidelines of which hasn't been established, as far as I can tell. Jiya doesn't time travel, so she really isn't even protected by that standard and the one time she did, she got sick. She can die/disappear at any time, but she hasn't yet so that Rufus can get with her. 

Same goes with Agent Christopher and Connor Mason. They shouldn't always be the same people, every time the time team comes back and yet in most respects they are. On that same note, Agent Christopher seems to be the only person who actually has a life. Rufus, Jiya, Wyatt, or Connor have never complained about any drastic changes in their lives since they started.


----------



## Ursa major

I think you're confusing who is, or isn't, at risk _in the context of the TV show_ and who might be at risk _if the events were happening in the real world_. (You're also assuming -- perhaps correctly, perhaps not -- that every changed event in the past would cut a wide swathe through the population of the US, but that's an entirely different issue.)

I was talking about what threats a _real world_ organisation running a time travel project (one involved in altering history**) might consider guarding against. I strongly believe that it would keep information about its activities, and the effects of its activities, as locked down as it could, in order to minimise problems amongst its workforce (who might react in the way I suggested) and from anyone who both felt threatened and could do something about it (such as the government).

It isn't as if there's any other way to find out if something odd was happening, such as people disappearing, or appearing out of nowhere: no-one, other than those in the time machines, can tell when something has changed. Even the time travellers only find out by comparing their (unaffected) memories with the reality of the world to which they return.

So I stand by my original comment: as few people as possible would be allowed to know what was really going on, as doing so reduces all sorts of risks , including the one I mentioned (an employee deciding that it would be better for everyone (including themselves) if time travelling died a quick death).


As for the TV show characters.... If they lived _in the real world_, and Rittenhouse's effort are directed specifically at events in North America (as opposed to Flynn's activities, which are rather less predictable), certain of them might not be at very high risk at all. Connor Mason is British and so is unlikely to be affected by the changes being planned by Rittenhouse (not to mention that Rittenhouse -- and Flynn -- would be rather keen that he didn't cease to exist). It's also quite likely, though not guaranteed, that Jiya is a "second generation" American, who may, therefore, be at reduced risk. And in the show, Jiya's "visions" are likely to be important, so her character will likely persist for most of season two, if only because of Chekhov's Gun.


** - Why else is Rittenhouse funding the project if not to alter history to its own benefit?


----------



## Dave

Ursa major said:


> ** - Why else is Rittenhouse funding the project if not to alter history to its own benefit?


This question must necessarily be what will drive the show in the next Season. I would point out only that "own benefit" does not necessarily mean an increase in wealth, power or influence. Since the Rittenhouse members we have met have all been wealthy, powerful and influential this is an easy assumption to make. However, they could be doing it for purely ideological reasons in order to make the world a better place for everyone. Clearly, it will not be a better place for all the people who no longer exist, but whether or not they are right is really a question of politics, and grey rather than black and white. As @ctg mentioned, I could see the writers turning everything ninety degrees and getting us to show-the-love for Rittenhouse as a much better way to continue. Maybe our "prime" original timeline (without any TT messing about) saw some terrible end-of-the-world scenario or apocalypse which they have been working towards avoiding for the last few hundred years.


----------



## ctg

Slightly off-topic but I imagine this must be close to the conversations in the writers room, where everyone gets so passionate about the topic. Maybe we'll have to wait and see what they do with this series, before we speculate any further. It's still at least four months, before we see an opening for the season season.


----------



## Ursa major

Dave said:


> However, they could be doing it for purely ideological reasons in order to make the world a better place for everyone.


There's a quote, one which I can't recall, about how people who do oppressive things "for the best of intentions" are far more dangerous, and difficult to oppose, than those who do it for other reasons (such as greed).

After all, making a person rich is of primary interest to them, their family, their coterie and those who want, or believe they'll get, a share of the riches, but few others; call it "saving the world", or something similar, and you'll get even those who suspect that they might end up being oppressed (as it's "a sacrifice for the cause") jumping on the bandwagon.

Obviously, Rittenhouse isn't so confident that its "saving the world" agenda would be popular, hence its secret nature, but it isn't as if we're unfamiliar with "popular fronts" of various sorts whose membership remains low as their vision of "saving the world" is unattractive to most... at which point you can get the sort of ideological cult where only the inner circle gets to see the "whole truth".

At which point, Lucy's part in _Timeless_ becomes even more crucial: she's expected to join her parents in what might be one of the inner circles of Rittenhouse (though not the innermost one; otherwise her grandfather would have told her the Rittenhouse secret**).


** - While the show met the (probably) original Rittenhouse leader, who did say what his vision was, can we be at all sure that he was being as frank as he could have been, given that he was talking to people obviously not on his side? (And can we be confident that the vision has remained unchanged through the centuries? I think not: given his age, Rittenhouse Jnr was unlikely to have been in possession of his father's full vision of a Rittenhouse future when he escaped from Flynn.)


----------



## Cli-Fi

Dave said:


> Maybe our "prime" original timeline (without any TT messing about) saw some terrible end-of-the-world scenario or apocalypse which they have been working towards avoiding for the last few hundred years.



@Dave, you just hit upon the reason for Jiya's dream/flash forward! 



Spoiler



The smoldering Golden Gate bridge is a bad omen, no?


----------



## Cli-Fi

Ursa major said:


> As for the TV show characters.... If they lived _in the real world_, and Rittenhouse's effort are directed specifically at events in North America (as opposed to Flynn's activities, which are rather less predictable), certain of them might not be at very high risk at all. Connor Mason is British and so is unlikely to be affected by the changes being planned by Rittenhouse (not to mention that Rittenhouse -- and Flynn -- would be rather keen that he didn't cease to exist). It's also quite likely, though not guaranteed, that Jiya is a "second generation" American, who may, therefore, be at reduced risk. And in the show, Jiya's "visions" are likely to be important, so her character will likely persist for most of season two, if only because of Chekhov's Gun.



If we are to assume that the butterfly effect is what happens when one time travels in the real world, then the changes are not solely limited to America. We do not live in a bubble here, despite what our polarized populace seems to want. That being the theory that one change in the timeline can drastically change everything. EG Sliders scenarios.

The sliders often went to an alternative world and asked WTF happened. Looked it up in the history books, Oh, JFK survived until old age and lived through two terms in office. Made the world an entirely different place. 

But timeless seems to be taking the opposite approach to the butterfly effect, that if you change something in the timeline nothing much is affected.


----------



## Ursa major

As no-one really knows how large the impact of the Butterfly Effect would be "on average", I think we (including the _Timeless_ show runners) are perfectly entitled to believe that its effect may often be very limited (while at other times devastating, as possibly represented in Jiya's "vision"**). Similarly, we'd be perfectly entitled to believe just about any interference could be devastating to lots of people (and produce a story based on that), but that would be based on very little but speculation.

As regards the world-wide effects of someone dying in the US, I chose my examples carefully. It's hard to imagine someone (or their immediate descendants) on the Indian subcontinent, or a UK colony in the West Indies, ceasing to exist because, say, Al Capone*** was shot rather than dying in Florida from a heart attack. Down the line, Rittenhouse may have much larger changes in mind, with much greater consequences (intended or otherwise), but we've not (as far as we know) seen any Rittenhouse-arranged editing of the past, only Flynn's more targeted approach, one with a rather limited aim.


By the way, _Sliders_ is not really a good show with which to critique _Timeless_. While the headline change in the episode you mention was JFK's survival, there is no reason to suppose that this was the sole difference between that world and ours. What they saw was might have been affected by those other, unseen, changes just as much as JFK's extended life. In _Timeless_, very specific changes are being attempted; sometimes they are thwarted, but with other changes resulting from that. That's a very different scenario.


** - Which could, though, be due to the actual act of travelling through time rather than what the time travellers do when they're in the past.

*** - When a crime boss is killed, or taken out of the picture, the result is rarely that no-one with criminal intent takes advantage of the situation. If evolution has told us anything, ecological niches tend to get filled and nature doesn't care what sort of organism fills them. Human beings do the same... albeit rather faster (but for shorter durations) than species.


----------



## Cli-Fi

Ursa major said:


> As regards the world-wide effects of someone dying in the US, I chose my examples carefully. It's hard to imagine someone (or their immediate descendants) on the Indian subcontinent, or a UK colony in the West Indies, ceasing to exist because, say, Al Capone*** was shot rather than dying in Florida from a heart attack. Down the line, Rittenhouse may have much larger changes in mind, with much greater consequences (intended or otherwise), but we've not (as far as we know) seen any Rittenhouse-arranged editing of the past, only Flynn's more targeted approach, one with a rather limited aim.



The problem I have with that are the Lincoln Episode and the lindbergh Episode. If someone else shot Lincoln I think a lot of things could have changed throughout American History, likely with Lindbergh if he tried to take credit for something no pictures can prove. It could have changed the entire scope of the aviation industry as we know it. Those are a lot of changes in the timeline, and I think timeless doesn't portray those affects properly and their theories why are a bit wonky, but still fun to think about.


----------



## Parson

There is always the theory that time is like a vast pond and that the ripples from an even fade after time leaving most everything unchanged. (I cannot for the life of me remember the book that took that pattern as its guide, but it makes as much sense as any other.)


----------



## Cli-Fi

Timeless cancelled by NBC. All industry analysts shocked: ‘Timeless’ Canceled By NBC After One Season


----------



## Ursa major

What a shame.


----------



## Dave

I'm glad there is still _X-factor_, or _First Dates_ or _Embarrassing Bodies _to watch.


----------



## Droflet

NBC and FOX appear to be cut from the same slab of stupid.


----------



## Cli-Fi

Dave said:


> I'm glad there is still _X-factor_, or _First Dates_ or _Embarrassing Bodies _to watch.



sarcastic like


----------



## Cli-Fi

Droflet said:


> NBC and FOX appear to be cut from the same slab of stupid.



I have never watched FOX.


----------



## Parson

Sigh! I really liked the show!


----------



## Lucien21

Seemingly it has been Uncanceled for a 10 episode 2nd season.

NBC Uncancels Timeless, Says Writer Eric Kripke - Bleeding Cool Comic Book, Movie, TV News


----------



## Cli-Fi

Lucien21 said:


> Seemingly it has been Uncanceled for a 10 episode 2nd season.
> 
> NBC Uncancels Timeless, Says Writer Eric Kripke - Bleeding Cool Comic Book, Movie, TV News



Is this the greatest marketing stunt of all time?


----------



## Dave

It seems like Sony TV just made a sweeter deal to NBC. I liked the Tweet from Eric Kripke though, "The #TimeTeam went back 3 days, and changed history."


----------



## Cli-Fi

Dave said:


> It seems like Sony TV just made a sweeter deal to NBC. I liked the Tweet from Eric Kripke though, "The #TimeTeam went back 3 days, and changed history."



Much respect for Sony. They not only made the deal sweeter but they see it as a potential long standing franchise. It feels like firefly potential but it can maybe even grow to star trek potential here.


----------



## Dave

Cli-Fi said:


> Much respect for Sony. They not only made the deal sweeter but they see it as a potential long standing franchise. It feels like firefly potential but it can maybe even grow to star trek potential here.


While I do enjoy the show, I foresee problems ahead if they continue the rule of not returning to the same period time again. There can be no fun _Back to the Future 2 _type moments, but more importantly, they cannot change those crucial and pivotal moments we have already seen happen. That would be quite restricting to the scriptwriters of any time travel show, but in addition, since the story is all about Rittenhouse and US history the restriction is even more pronounced. You cannot stop Rittenhouse either by going to the first colonisation of Mars, nor by meeting the Roman Emperor Nero, and they have already covered quite a few important US historical events. So, the possibility of a "long standing franchise?"


----------



## Cli-Fi

Dave said:


> While I do enjoy the show, I foresee problems ahead if they continue the rule of not returning to the same period time again. There can be no fun _Back to the Future 2 _type moments, but more importantly, they cannot change those crucial and pivotal moments we have already seen happen. That would be quite restricting to the scriptwriters of any time travel show, but in addition, since the story is all about Rittenhouse and US history the restriction is even more pronounced. You cannot stop Rittenhouse either by going to the first colonisation of Mars, nor by meeting the Roman Emperor Nero, and they have already covered quite a few important US historical events. So, the possibility of a "long standing franchise?"



I think throughout it's 12 season run, I said the same thing about Supernatural 2 or 3 times. The timeless guys joked on twitter that they broke the rule you can't go back to a time where you're alive and it's not like there is rigid ideology to this anyway. Jiya is already having visions of the or a possible future. All I know is Eric could do the same thing he did with Supernatural. It got to be a much bigger show in season four in terms of mythology and scope once they started talking about the biblical apocalypse for the first time. That introduced a bunch of new players. Rittenhouse could easily be using technology from said future. Take it from William Shatner who is a big fan of the show, he pointed out that Star Trek originally got cancelled by NBC! Even though most people today know Star Trek from CBS.


----------



## BAYLOR

Parson said:


> Sigh! I really liked the show!



It's coming back for a second season.


----------



## Lumens

Lucien21 said:


> Seemingly it has been Uncanceled for a 10 episode 2nd season.
> 
> NBC Uncancels Timeless, Says Writer Eric Kripke - Bleeding Cool Comic Book, Movie, TV News


If I were them, I'd call it season three for a bit of time travel fun.


----------



## BAYLOR

Lumens said:


> If I were them, I'd call it season three for a bit of time travel fun.



That's an absolutely twisted idea.  I like it !


----------



## Ursa major

Lucien21 said:


> Seemingly it has been Uncanceled for a 10 episode 2nd season.


Excellent news!


----------



## Dave

Lumens said:


> If I were them, I'd call it season three for a bit of time travel fun.


*Season -1*


----------



## Cli-Fi

> "Since the show started, there's been a fanbase that I've never seen before," Barrett [Rufus] said.



The Stars of Timeless Were Shocked by Un-Cancellation


----------



## apocalypsegal

Oh, man. Glad to see it was uncancelled! I hope the writers and producers can make the show good enough to get further seasons. If not, it might be a good show for SyFy to pick up and run with.


----------



## REBerg

Wow! TV series uncancellation is a rarity Hey, Fox. What about _Firefly_?


----------



## Cli-Fi

Timeless will make it's much anticipated return journey back to comic-con to thank fans and perhaps solidify itself in science fiction history as the next great American Sci-fi show.

Renewed 'Timeless' to honor fans at San Diego Comic-Con


----------



## ctg

Timeless has appeared into the Netflix. If you missed it, now is your chance to rewatch it, before new season begins and I get so confused. Netflix gives me 98% match for some reason. I'm not sure why.


----------



## Cli-Fi

ctg said:


> Timeless has appeared into the Netflix. If you missed it, now is your chance to rewatch it, before new season begins and I get so confused. Netflix gives me 98% match for some reason. I'm not sure why.



Stream the crap out of this people. It's one of the best original sci-fi shows of the past decade. Might be my favorite sci-fi show from the past five years.


----------



## BAYLOR

Cli-Fi said:


> Stream the crap out of this people. It's one of the best original sci-fi shows of the past decade. Might be my favorite sci-fi show from the past five years.



It's a terrific show,hopefully the ratings pick up so it can run for a few more seasons.


----------



## Parson

Isn't it worrying that what we see as must see TV (Timeless, Babyon 5, Firefly, etc.) can barely, if it all, get ratings enough to sustain it. In some ways we must be out of touch


----------



## Dave

Parson said:


> Isn't it worrying that what we see as must see TV (Timeless, Babyon 5, Firefly, etc.) can barely, if it all, get ratings enough to sustain it. In some ways we must be out of touch


I've watched parts of _Love Island, Big Brother, Great British Bake Off, Britain's Got Talent, X-Factor, Eastenders and Coronation Street_, and my conclusion is that I am not the one who is out of touch.


----------



## Parson

Dave said:


> I've watched parts of _Love Island, Big Brother, Great British Bake Off, Britain's Got Talent, X-Factor, Eastenders and Coronation Street_, and my conclusion is that I am not the one who is out of touch.



Well, there's that of course.


----------



## Lex E. Darion

Has anyone seen Timeless? I've just found it on Netflix (UK) and think it's great. I love history and, although US-centric, I've learned a bit more about various events. 

It's been a while since I've watched something that I find I actually stop playing Candy Crush and watch! I like the characters, I LOVE the ambiguity of the antagonist/s and it keeps me watching with the clever, intricate storylines. 

Apparently it was axed after 1 season - for 3 days - but there is going to be a season 2. 

There are some things that niggle - but I won't put them up as they might be classed as spoilers. 

If you like sci-fi/time travel fun then I recommend you check it out


----------



## Droflet

Thanks for that, Lex. Saw the first season and was annoyed when it got canceled. I'll keep an eye open for it.


----------



## Parson

Indeed, watched the entire first season and I will watch another if as promised it appears.


----------



## Cli-Fi

According to actors Timeless season 2 has entered the writers room.


----------



## ctg

Cli-Fi said:


> According to actors Timeless season 2 has entered the writers room.



I wonder if they have read the forum and taken in our opinions. TT business is in a transition as we understand the science more than ever before. We even understand the consequences before they develop. Travelers is the one I'm waiting with great interest to return at Netflix.


----------



## Cli-Fi

Timeless is coming back Sunday, March 11 10 PM. Mark your calendars!!!!

Timeless Season 2 Set for March Start


----------



## REBerg




----------



## REBerg

*2.01 The War to End All Wars*
Great comeback episode for the series. A lot of groundwork laid for the season. I'm looking forward to it.


----------



## ctg

Wow. I don't know what to say. I'm not even sure I should say anything because I was so negative. But I liked it a lot.


----------



## Parson

I also liked it, but it reminded me a lot of the way that Alias shifted gears. All of a sudden you have some of the basic background, but a lot of the characters are shuffled into different roles and the once clear conflict is not so clear at all. I did learn a lot about Madame Curie and Irene that I had not known. --- Much to my chagrin!


----------



## ctg

Spoiler: 2.02 - The Nascar 500



I am still liking it as Timeless has taken a new direction with Rittenhouse's master plan gearing towards the master race. It is a timeless agenda and a bold one picked straight out of mad man's box of wonders. 

NBC has clearly understood that the modern audience doesn't want the old school format with 'a thing of the week,' when almost everyone else is doing character driven series. They did this with new Star Trek and I believe we are in for a treat in this one as well as things cannot go back to way they were. None of the characters are exactly at the same point, where they started. Lucy, for example, lost her mum, her sister, everyone that was important until she was told that they were all part of the Rittenhouse family. 

The thing that actual frightens me is Rittenhouse's agenda and the distribution of at least ten pawns in different times in the past. If one of them manages to full fill their mission things are going to change suddenly to probably something bad. If two or five manages to put things in play thing certainly are going to look dark for the humanity living in the Timeless universe. So, although Lucy and gang chased Flynn through time and space sometimes the madness of anarchist is the only solution to go forward, because there is nothing to be gaining for staying in good shoes if the slightly naughty actions saves the day. 

I don't think they are going to show Lucy diving into the darkness and never getting out from there, even thought it could be interesting to see how Rittenhouse's plan changes the world. Maybe we will get a ST's kind of Disney ending with, no trouble in the horizon, even though it would be better for story sake to see Rittenhouse scoring at least partial win.


----------



## Ursa major

For those, like me, who wait for shows to appear on terrestrial TV in the UK, there are now adverts saying that _Timeless_ is "Coming Soon" to the E4 channel.


----------



## Lucien21

Spoiler



How do you charge an iphone in 1918 ??[spoiler/]


----------



## ctg

Ursa major said:


> who wait for shows to appear on terrestrial TV in the UK



 I believe you will catch up soon.


----------



## ctg

Spoiler






Lucien21 said:


> How do you charge an iphone in 1918 ?



With electricity. How else? The electricity was developed at 1752 by Benjamin Franklin. So they had 166 years to developed AC generator if you don't want to fix the phone directly to DC network. Tesla made the AC real at 1888.


----------



## REBerg

Aren't all battery chargers really just ac to dc transformers?


----------



## REBerg

ctg said:


> Spoiler: 2.02 - The Nascar 500
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think they are going to show Lucy diving into the darkness and never getting out from there


Lucy's character has definitively hardened from the one she played in the first season. As you said, she has been put through a lot. I also think she will recover.


----------



## ctg

REBerg said:


> Aren't all battery chargers really just ac to dc transformers?



There's more smart in it then the normal ac/dc converter. If you have a normal DC battery you can connect the mobile directly in it, if you make sure you're feeding 5V to correct contacts.


----------



## Cli-Fi

REBerg said:


> Lucy's character has definitively hardened from the one she played in the first season. As you said, she has been put through a lot. I also think she will recover.



Are we still going with Rittenhouse is evil?? Because Lucy was not so nice and Agent Christopher locking up the Time Team in a bunker? Not so nice either.


----------



## Dave

Surely, the problem is with lack of standard sockets and plugs, rather than with the electricity. Even with an iPhone those have gone through several changes that I know of. When electricity was first distributed even different streets within the same city had different shaped sockets and plugs. That must be a nightmare for your everyday time traveller from the future.


----------



## ctg

Dave said:


> When electricity was first distributed even different streets within the same city had different shaped sockets and plugs. That must be a nightmare for your everyday time traveller from the future.



True, but if you need to get the thing charged then a couple shocks is a small price to pay for it - if you use wires and stick them into the socket (just don't do it at home if you're not licensed). Back then, brown and blackout would have probably fried your mobile as the spikes would have killed electronics. The currency rates back then weren't filtered and managed as well as they're today and that would probably have been bigger problem then charging the thing. Especially on wartimes at the conflict zones.


----------



## Dave

I love this series but I do have a small problem with the temporal mechanics. I know the real reason why they visit random points in history each week - for the same reason the did so in _Time Tunnel_ and _Quantum Leap_ - it makes better TV. However, those two series had valid reasons for their randomness. Here, they are trying to prevent some nefarious Ritterhouse plot spread across the whole of history. Last season there were only a small number of changes to put right, but now the changes are more widespread. My problem is that in reality, neither group would never be messing around in 1955, as it is far too close to the present day. The further back in time you go, the bigger and more far-reaching the consequences will be of any change you make. If Rittenhouse change anything in a more recent year, our heroes can go back to the day before and reverse it. Rittenhouse can then go back to the day before that. This could continue, with each iteration going progressively back in time, until a race back to the beginning would ensue. The beginning, I guess, being the formation of Rittenhouse (although it is possible they could continue back to the dinosaurs or blue-green algae.) That beginning is where the final battle will be fought, so anything else they do is pointless.

On the other hand, maybe the creation of the time machine is another "beginning" that can be wiped. However, thinking about having two "beginnings" makes my head hurt. 

I also don't know where Jiya's ability to see the future/alternative future/past fits into this, but it must become important. That is one ability Rittenhouse do not have, which must make it an advantage. I'm not sure either why she is keeping it secret. She may have thought she was going mad, but with Rufus' burn to the arm, she now knows it is something real.



Cli-Fi said:


> Are we still going with Rittenhouse is evil?? Because Lucy was not so nice and Agent Christopher locking up the Time Team in a bunker? Not so nice either.


Yes, even last season there were signs that everything wasn't black and white. I suspect that Flynn will become a full team member once everyone can accept that, because he has never been wrong, and the his own cause is perfectly aligned with them. 

Is Rittenhouse evil? - they do kill without any regret. We still don't really know what they aspire to do. Their cause could be just. Maybe they are trying to prevent the destruction of Earth in the future - would a just cause give them a moral backing their actions and impunity? If they are just trying to create a "perfect" idealised Earth, then that would not be a just cause.


----------



## ctg

Dave said:


> I also don't know where Jiya's ability to see the future/alternative future/past fits into this, but it must become important.



I can only explain it through multiverse theory but not through traditional TT in the linear, no forking timeline. If they would slip into the other world, even for a moment, a lot of plotholes could be explained through that understanding.  



Dave said:


> Is Rittenhouse evil? - they do kill without any regret. We still don't really know what they aspire to do. Their cause could be just. Maybe they are trying to prevent the destruction of Earth in the future - would a just cause give them a moral backing their actions and impunity? If they are just trying to create a "perfect" idealised Earth, then that would not be a just cause.



I totally agree. Their cause could be just and that is the same problem we faced in the first season as they chose to not show the future. But, is that a problem for the larger audience as we learned through Orville that there is a demand for classical SF in the small screen. Timeless is far easier to understand then 12 Monkeys and I gave up on trying to figure it out, because it goes so weird that my brain couldn't handle the complexities. The extended version of movie actually gives a nice explanation to what is and why it happened, and it goes even beyond that into the realm of dark fantasy. 

Can all TT stories be classified as dark fantasies?


----------



## ctg

I can explain the visions in the linear timeline if I take from the mythology concept known as an oracle. They are supposed have powers of clairvoyance or a true sight. Whatever changes Rittenhouse/Timeless team are doing might be change Jiay in ways nobody has explained yet. But, if she is standing at the centre of the culmination of these events, it might be possible for her to see things in the future as her metaphysical body goes through alterations.


----------



## ctg

3.03 Hollywoodland. Truly wonderful episode. It made me smile, laugh and feel so good. I don't want to say more as I don't want to spoil you.


----------



## REBerg

Spoiler



What the ... Wyatt and Lucy finally get romantically honest with each other, then Wyatt goes AWOL to hook up with his former (as in dead) wife?
I was also amazed to see Aslaug so alive and well. The last time I saw her, she had taken a fatal Viking arrow in the back.


----------



## ctg

Spoiler






REBerg said:


> Wyatt and Lucy finally get romantically honest with each other, then Wyatt goes AWOL to hook up with his former (as in dead) wife?



Yeah, I don't know what is that about. So he should have a pretty good reason to go AWOL. Maybe he wants the divorce so that he can do the honours and ask Lucy. 



REBerg said:


> I was also amazed to see Aslaug so alive and well. The last time I saw her, she had taken a fatal Viking arrow in the back.



Mrs Grey told me off for assuming that she was Buffy's Drusilla actor.


----------



## Dave

I think we can dispense with the spoilers if we just tell everyone DO NOT READ ANY FURTHER if you haven't seen the last 5 minutes of S2: episode 3.

To me she seemed surprised to see him; very surprised as in the "I have no idea who you are!" "Why is this complete stranger hugging me?" kind of way. That was pretty stupid of Rufus to give Hedy Lamar that advice and change the future. Maybe in this reality they never got together? If they never got together then she would never have become a target.


----------



## ctg

Dave said:


> Maybe in this reality they never got together? If they never got together then she would never have become a target.



Yeah. That is true as well. I also thought on how Wyatt is going to explain his wife where he's been all this time. And also if you save some who says that in the next time something is altered in the past that it won't take the good thing away. When you are time-traveller how do you deal with the altered states? What is the safest way, be stranger first (as if you wouldn't know the person even though you do) and savour those moments?


----------



## Ursa major

* Typing while carefully avoiding reading anything in the thread that might include a spoiler.*

_Timeless_ starts on UK terrestrial channel E4 on Wednesday the 4th of April, i.e. eight days from now.


----------



## ctg

Spoiler: S02E04 - The Salem Witch Trails



How impossible it is for one to escape the destiny that had been told to become? Apparently it's not that easy. I don't think Lucy's team has ever got a mission, where they could had just enjoyed the event for being one that changed humanity perspective. We know now that Salem's trials were an episode of US reflecting the old world evilness. It's almost like bobody learned or even heard about the Spanish Inquisition in Boston when they started the accusations. What I was surprised about was the presence of US nation father's mother in those trials. 

If time is a slow moving river and throw a rock in to cause a ripple, you are powerful, but you are not strong enough to control the whole stream. You just cause a chance and alter the events. Yet, when you look at Logan's wife, she's a walking testimony of the power of Rittenhouse. They will do whatever they can to cause permanent changes directly or indirectly by messing with the Timeless team. Eventually all they need is to show a jump and it's almost guaranteed that there is going to be changes in the time. They might not necessarily be what they ultimately wanted, but they are still changes to events that made the humanity to what we are seeing around us. 

The problem for the Timeless team is that they are all isolated from the changes in the world. In one minute the dead people come back alive, the other they might not even have existed because the time got changed. I know that it might be hard for them to understand this is happening, but there is no reset button. 

Should there be one?


----------



## Anthoney

I enjoyed last nights episode (2.4).  I like them working with Flynn.  I'm also amused by their new "Screw it!  We'll just change what we want ." attitude.


----------



## REBerg

ctg said:


> there is no reset button.
> 
> Should there be one?


No. That would be a cheap trick.
Every change in the past should have implications for the present. I wonder if Rittenhouse, with its lengthy experience, has any greater control over events than the Time Team.
Now that Wyatt has taken the time out to reconnect with his formerly deceased wife, has he lost the historical continuity shared by those within the Lifeboat?


----------



## ctg

REBerg said:


> Now that Wyatt has taken the time out to reconnect with his formerly deceased wife, has he lost the historical continuity shared by those within the Lifeboat?


I think he lost it a long time ago or before episode 3, as Logan has been looking so-o dodgy.


----------



## Dave

Anthoney said:


> I'm also amused by their new "Screw it!  We'll just change what we want ." attitude.


I appreciate that Lucy apologised for not allowing the women to be hanged, but I saw it more as resignation that they can no longer prevent all the changes. They could never have fixed it so Abigail and Lucy survived but the others didn't. In that way, it is rather like the old Star Trek (TOS) episodes where they say they hold to the Prime Directive, but some earlier ship has already been to the planet and completely messed up it's society, so whatever they do has got to be better and it gives them a carte blanche.


----------



## ctg

I just leave this here.


----------



## ctg

The best episode of the season!



Spoiler: 2.05 - JFK 



Not only they showed Jack being naughty from the beginning, they transported him into the future, because of the safety issues. What could go wrong? Everything. They even told JFK about the assassination and still it happened. It is almost as if you cannot change anything even though you dump the necessary information into the subject and somehow you don't cause a greater contamination. 

The only problem with the issue is the information travel from the past to the future and into the Rittenhouse hands. I don't understand how it all really happened, because the info was given before the sleepers were eliminated in the past. Did their deaths inform Rittenhouse of the failure of the mission? But more concerning for me is the information overload that JFK got from the future and looking at the Wiki pages. How did he manage to keep it all secret and not benefit from what he learned? Seeing the proof make one even more determined it's the thing than believing it's false.

Also the notion of God and it being the vessel for giving the oracle visions rubs against the logic and scientific beliefs. Then again we are living in the age, where science has proven that souls exists. Why to ignore that fact and completely dump the mysticism? 

Oh, there are so many questions I'd like to have answers and I cannot wait for the next one. I hope there's lots before the summer season starts and Timeless goes to a four month season break.


----------



## Dave

ctg said:


> The best episode of the season!


I understand your reasons for saying that as you have described above. For me, I thought they missed a big chance to make a lot more fun with more of the pop culture references. However, this show already has a lot of comedy, without it being an actual comedy, and they probably didn't want to upset that delicate balance.


----------



## ctg

Dave said:


> However, this show already has a lot of comedy, without it being an actual comedy, and they probably didn't want to upset that delicate balance.



I think they are still being careful on their experiments on this season. They got a big scare, when it was cancelled so I would understand if they're hesitant on doing things out from the norm. The last episode had so many references on them being happy that they didn't actually had to go to past, as that angle worked without putting on the costume. Why is it that they don't explore more on the closer timeline? I think closer would mean that they could experiment on things to get a head of Rittenhouse.


----------



## REBerg

It would seem that the time travel theory being expressed in this series is that the future can be changed in small ways, but the broad strokes of history are unalterable.


Spoiler



Team expeditions could not stop major events like the destruction of the Hindenburg or the assassinations of Lincoln and JFK. Yet, their activities in the past can do things like negate the existence of Lucy's sister or bring Wyatt's wife back from the dead.
I suspect that it won't be long before another expedition into the past does something to erase Jessica's return. If Wyatt is not part of the crew when that happens, he will never know about that second chance.


----------



## ctg

Spoiler: 2.06 - The King of Delta Blues



The broad strokes Rittenhouse are drawing has started altering things in the idealogical level. Just like it was similar kind of episode in the Legends of Tomorrow things aren't any longer encapsulated into singular moments. In this episode they really got close to wiping themselves from the history, because one man refused to play the ball and record an album for Lando Calrissian.

It was a clever move, because when you move out from the singular events and start affecting ideas, you're on much more stable ground on doing changes then you can with a single thing. This is much larger then the Grand Father Paradox. Maybe I'm wrong, am I?


----------



## REBerg

Spoiler



I thought that Wyatt not being aboard the Lifeboat for this mission might result in the rest of them returning to find no sign that his wife had come back, I guess not, because when Lucy told him to go be with Jessica, he didn't seem puzzled.
Lucy going to Flynn's room with a bottle at the end of the episode was an eyebrow-raiser.


----------



## ctg

Spoiler






REBerg said:


> Lucy going to Flynn's room with a bottle at the end of the episode was an eyebrow-raiser.



They all need someone. Flynn is there to give her that someone who really cares. He read the diary and went hellbent to prevent its vision from becoming real. It's kind obvious that ultimately he's in love. Maybe Lucy is just exploring what it feels like if she trusted Flynn completely. Maybe it's a win-win situation?


----------



## REBerg

Still, a decision she might regret when she takes her hung over "walk of shame" come morning.


----------



## ctg

REBerg said:


> her hung over "walk of shame" come morning.



You Americans are weird.


----------



## REBerg

ctg said:


> You Americans are weird.


Yes, some of us are.


----------



## ctg

Very good episode. 



Spoiler: 2.07 - The Women Rights



It is difficult to think what would be different if women would have no rights, because the success squeezing would have made the world bleaker than ever. I don't really want to even think about it but if it had been successful the time machines might not have happened and the Rittenhouse might not have had their female bosses. 

In fact, I don't understand how the Rittenhouse boss is going to keep alive after this mission when his loyalists know that eventually the despot on the throne is going to be their doom. For them to be successful on staying the job the changes has to happen. So, here's the question, if the changes had made and the timeless team would have found themselves suddenly being a male dominated group how big loss there would have been for the viewership? 

If they're going to continue with bold changes somethings has to be allowed to happen as all those things make the world behind more interesting. I have to include into that REBerg's walk of shame as that angle has made this show so much more interesting.


----------



## REBerg

*2.07 Mrs. Sherlock Holmes*
This gave me a real feeling for the power and historical significance of the suffrage movement. How far we've fallen -- with our pathetic current voter turnout in most elections.


Spoiler



Emma surprised me when she teamed up with the good guys (at least temporarily) as a victim of child abuse who didn't want to experience a world in which women were considered property. I liked situation summary after Flynn decided to trust her when Rufus said: "Great. Now both of my enemies have guns."
Flynn seems to be working out. I wonder if Emma might evolve into a future good guys team double agent in the Rittenhouse camp.


ctg said:


> I have to include into that REBerg's walk of shame as that angle has made this show so much more interesting.


It turned out more to be of a "tiptoe of shame."  It seems that the Jessica-Flynn-Wyatt triangle might be resolved by the image of Jessica found on the salvaged Rittenhouse equipment. Among the many reasons it existed might be that Jessica is working for or will work for the bad guys. That would might somehow reunite Wyatt and Lucy.


----------



## ctg

REBerg said:


> This gave me a real feeling for the power and historical significance of the suffrage movement. How far we've fallen -- with our pathetic current voter turnout in most elections.



Yeah, back in the days they were much more active and they knew what they wanted from their elected official. Since that event things have really changed. 


Spoiler






REBerg said:


> That would might somehow reunite Wyatt and Lucy.



Or not. Lucy isn't a good girl and she's not stupid. As soon as Wyatt's wife is exposed, he's going to climb back into the bottle and self-destruct. Flynn is much more stable.


----------



## Dave

First, I need to know more about the images. Where were they taken? When were they taken? How was it taken? It might be in the past, but then again, it might be only one "possible" future. However, I did wonder why she was still kept around unrestricted. She is a security risk, no matter whether she is a Rittenhouse sleeper or just an innocent bystander. They can't let her go now though, and whatever they do with her is going to arouse some suspicion about the reason for the change of attitude - so "keep this between us" is not going to work really.


----------



## ctg

Dave said:


> She is a security risk, no matter whether she is a Rittenhouse sleeper or just an innocent bystander. They can't let her go now though, and whatever they do with her is going to arouse some suspicion about the reason for the change of attitude - so "keep this between us" is not going to work really.



Has it ever worked? Thing is, they're hiding and there's no security details keeping things as they should. The hideout might be a secret, but in the same way the lifeboat tracks the main vessel, the Rittenhouse could do in reverse. So, I don't really understand how they could have gone through this as a long con? What could they have possible offered her to become a sleeper agent?


----------



## ctg

If you'll expect another review today I'm afraid I'm all out juice. I had the worst migraine in my life yesterday and I keep falling in sleep while writing these things for you. I'll do it later if nobody else wants to do it on my behalf.


----------



## REBerg

*2.08 The Day Reagan Was Shot*
The team again makes a minor change in individual history.


Spoiler



Reagan still gets popped, but Jessica's dead baby brother is resurrected as Wyatt's longtime pool-playing pal.
It's strange that the  greatest revelations about the future were made to then Officer Christopher, yet Jessica's future was the one changed. Meanwhile, Lucy can't catch a break on getting her time travel-erased sister back.
Jessica's timeline vulnerability to the missions of the team make me think that her involvement with Rittenhouse could be in flux. Has anyone checked to see if her image is still among the recovered Rittenhouse data?
Now, you see her; now, you don't.


----------



## Dave

There is so much suspicion being fed, so much uncertainty about the timeline. I like it, but it's getting complicated. As ctg said earlier, not as complicated as the _Twelve Monkeys _TV series became, but complicated enough. Like _Twelve Monkeys _I can't see how they can stop the changes becoming more and more damaging to the "original" timeline (whatever that was.)


Spoiler



Wyatt doesn't know about the recovered Rittenhouse data so he has developed his own suspicions about Jessica's return all by himself. He didn't get the answer he was looking for, but the question remains. However, I'm sceptical that if Jessica is as good a Rittenhouse agent as we are lead to believe that she would casually mention her brother to Wyatt.


----------



## ctg

Dave said:


> Like _Twelve Monkeys _I can't see how they can stop the changes becoming more and more damaging to the "original" timeline (whatever that was.)



Maybe that is the thing. We almost always see TT stories getting solved and then having an utopistic Disney ending. What if the Timeless is really a story of how we tried and failed to understand that the events happens, because they're meant to happen and there is nothing we can do to make them different. Without addressing the state of the future, Timeless is a series showing historical events in the way of fiction. But, if they show the future, it'll either answers a lot of questions and possibly cause even more, but it also raises the stakes. 

I think Continuum is the best TT series as it showed the future first, before the MC was sent in the past to save it. I also believe that in the TT stories it's important to give the audience answers on the future then just staying in the present and the past. If the present is the future then in the Timeless case nothing big has really happened.


----------



## ctg

I leave this here



> Is our universe unique? From science fiction to science fact, there is a concept that suggests that there could be other universes besides our own, where all the choices you made in this life played out in alternate realities. The concept is known as a "parallel universe," and is a facet of the astronomical theory of the multiverse.
> 
> The idea is pervasive in comic books, video games, television and movies. Franchises ranging from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" to "Star Trek" to "Doctor Who" to "Digemon" use the idea to extend plotlines. (A fuller list of parallel universes in fiction is at the bottom of the article.)
> 
> There actually is quite a bit of evidence out there for a multiverse. First, it is useful to understand how our universe is believed to have come to be.


 Parallel Universes: Theories & Evidence


----------



## REBerg

*2.09/2.10 The General/Chinatown*
Mind-bending season finale.


ctg said:


> I leave this here
> 
> Parallel Universes: Theories & Evidence





Spoiler



Nothing other than a parallel universe can explain the appearance of a second lifeboat containing castaway-looking versions of Wyatt and Lucy. Was it piloted by another version of the late Rufus?
The message I'm getting from the series is that Time can be dented a bit by the team missions, but it can't really be bent in a significant new direction. If that's the case, why is Rittenhouse convinced that it can "save the world" by changing historic pivot points? Emma's surprising execution of top Rittenhouse management would indicate that nothing done in the past can really change an already written future.
I loved how firing up the old boat up kicked off 130 years of shrubbery, throwing mulch in all directions.


NBC hasn't announced if the series will get a third season, but the cliffhanger ending here will anger a lot of fans if they decide to cancel it.


----------



## ctg

Truly Wonderful Season Ending. They did put a lot of thought and effort to mirror the last season and push the envelope with this one. Some bits were problematic and even disturbing, because the historical-event-of-the-week just didn't do enough for the old TT geek. But, chained together causalities like what we saw in the final one are far better way for making the audience to understand the bridges and connections in this mess of loose strings. 


Spoiler






REBerg said:


> Nothing other than a parallel universe can explain the appearance of a second lifeboat containing castaway-looking versions of Wyatt and Lucy. Was it piloted by another version of the late Rufus?



I read some old theory some time ago and it claimed that some of the dreams are projections from the alternate universe. If they'll feel too real, they might be you seeing through the eyes of the other you and if they come back as deja-vu's, your soul is more connected to the stream-of-time than you might have ever guessed. I personally don't think that the other life-boat is from a parallel universe, but they're actually going to show us the future, because if you rewatch the final scene, there was line thrown by Mason, "It looks upgraded."

Although "upgraded" can be from a parallel universe, where the engineers were a bitter better than in the prime timeline it's a reach to unknown, because according to the theory every decision you made otherwise, you'll create a new parallel timeline to the original one. Eventually this will mean that there are an infinite number of parallel universes instead of one, where we made opposite decisions and created a so-called mirror world. 

Thing is that they've proven time and again in this season to make it absolutely clear that you cannot escape history. The events happens if they're meant to happen regardless Lucy's or Rittenhouse's teams trying to interfere with them. Some things might change but the end is the same. Rufus died and when he bled on the small screen I shed my tears like any other person. I even shouted to the screen for Lucy to "Double Tap" when she her gun on Emma's forehead and I was really glad, when she pulled the trigger. Emma needs to die or she'll create an Empire for herself with everything she has inherited from the "family."

Wyatt also needs to learn to live with the regret or he will never be able to function like the bearded veteran we saw standing on the other lifeboat hatch.



I hope NBC sees the wisdom to grant another ten episodes for the Timeless team. They delivered on the promise.


----------



## ctg

> After NBC canceled the time-travel drama only to reverse the decision last May, the network is once again trying to make a decision regarding the show's future.
> 
> On a conference call with reporters on Sunday, NBC Entertainment's CEO Bob Greenblatt said the network will wait until after _Timeless_' season two finale airs before renewing or canceling it.


 Will Timeless Be Renewed for Season 3?



> "We try to give the producers the courtesy of letting their shows run and seeing what they do before we make a decision that's premature," Greenblatt explained. "We're going to make decisions on those after that."
> 
> He continued, "We're hopeful and realistic. We have a lot of shows and we've looked at the whole season, but we're going to take a look at those shows after they finish their runs and hopefully make a relatively quick decision on them."


----------



## REBerg

> "We try to give the producers the courtesy of letting their shows run and seeing what they do before we make a decision that's premature," Greenblatt explained. "We're going to make decisions on those after that."
> 
> He continued, "We're hopeful and realistic. We have a lot of shows and we've looked at the whole season, but we're going to take a look at those shows after they finish their runs and hopefully make a relatively quick decision on them."


This does not sound promising.
For example, NBC announced May 12 that _Black List_ will be renewed, although the fifth season is still in progress I hope that I'm wrong, but it would seem that, despite Greenblatt's assurances, good news gets delivered early while bad news waits in the wings.


----------



## Dave

La La La, not listening to you. I need to watch the final two episodes first.


----------



## Dave

*Spoilers for end of Season 2*
_But if you are reading this far then that must be expected, right?_
Okay, great ending. Rather confusing, in a good way - what I mean is that as @ctg said, they aren't afraid to "push the envelope." Who would expect the arch-villains to be killed? Or, for Rufus to really, really die? But if the new upgraded Lifeboat* can travel back to times when they already exist to rescue Rufus, then the Mothership could also travel back and rescue Lucy's mother, father, grandfather, hell anyone they like? This is a game-changer because one of the fundamental restrictions placed upon the time-travel rules in this series has just been removed.

A few more ideas:
- Jia will be different now. 3 years living in 1885-1888 must change someone. I hope we see her on more missions. 
- Why did they keep Stanley under wraps all this time? He seemed quite lucid to me. (Except the part about "forbidden colours" - which reminded me once again of the _Twelve Monkeys_ TV series and the "red forest."
- After 2 Seasons, I still don't understand the goal of Rittenhouse. What is the change they hope to enact? Why is the world they want to create better? Would the Confederate states winning or J F Kennedy not becoming President make the world better? If the series is saying anything, it is saying that some things are fated to happen in any case and cannot be altered.

*why did they come back from Chinatown in the Lifeboat when they could have found and stolen back the Mothership?


----------



## Lucien21

Unfortunately it seems Timeless is no more...again.

http://ew.com/

But there may be a movie to wrap things up...maybe


----------



## Lucien21

Not a movie as such, but a 2 hour finale.

Twice-Canceled Series 'Timeless' Gets a 2-Hour Series Finale on NBC


----------



## Anthoney

It shows some respect to a loyal fan base.  The show may not have had as many fans as the network wanted but what it did have was strong.

I think any series canceled (unplanned for) after 2 or more seasons should get a closing movie or even movies.  If only I was king of the world.


----------



## Dave

Anthoney said:


> I think any series canceled (unplanned for) after 2 or more seasons should get a closing movie or even movies.  If only I was king of the world.


I've lost count of the number of series where that didn't happen and there was no closure.


----------



## Dave

So, I'm watching the very first episode of a Spanish time travel series on Netflix, which is now into its 3rd Season. It is called _The Ministry of Time_. The plot bears some uncanny similarities with _Timeless_. It is almost as if _Timeless_ was... _cough_ ...copied from it. it isn't exactly the same but there are two men and a woman in the team working for this secret Spanish Ministry. They travel back in time to fix changes made by others, and one of the others is a renegade of the Ministry, presumed to have been dead. One of the men is a widow and wants to warn his wife about her getting hit by a car, to prevent her death. There are more similarities too, but there is even more that is quite different - no time machines, just doorways off a an infinite staircase and unauthorised hidden doors. The three are also from different time periods themselves which has lots more possible character interactions than _Timeless_ allowed. I recommend it.


----------



## Anthoney

Dave said:


> It is called _The Ministry of Time_. The plot bears some uncanny similarities with _Timeless_.



The people who owned The Ministry of Time sued NBC.  That lawsuit sort of died on the vine.  Timeless is a rewrite of a Pilot that played on SyFy called Rewind.  It's about a team of 3 people, a soldier dude, a lady and a black guy, are sent back in time to stop terrible things from happening.  This show predate the Spanish show.


----------



## Dave

Anthoney said:


> The people who owned The Ministry of Time sued NBC.  That lawsuit sort of died on the vine.  Timeless is a rewrite of a Pilot that played on SyFy called Rewind.  It's about a team of 3 people, a soldier dude, a lady and a black guy, are sent back in time to stop terrible things from happening.  This show predate the Spanish show.


I've been continuing to watch _The Ministry of Time_ and I rate it very highly. What you say about the lawsuit is undoubtedly true, but there continues to be many parallels between the two shows - so someone is cribbing from someone. I expect that like the old _DS9_ versus _Babylon 5_ debate, who is cribbing from who, will never be proved. A little bit both ways, no doubt.

While I think that _The Ministry of Time_ is excellent, they are obsessed with stories about Spanish artists, much as _Timeless_ was obsessed with stories about slavery. One problem with _Ministries_ is that the final episode of the second series had such a huge plot, with major changes that occurred to history, that it can never really be topped. The third season has been slowly building a new enemy though - a secret society with the ability to time travel. So, don't know where they got that idea from!


----------



## REBerg

*2.11 The Miracle of Christmas Part I/II*
Sometimes, promises of closure do come true.
This 2-hour final finale (or is it? -- Timeless Season 3 is still a possibility after set pull-down postponed) wrapped up loose ends nicely. 



Spoiler



Apparently for each significant character saved, another must be sacrificed. Rufus lives, Jessica dies, and Rittenhouse will no longer be tinkering with time.
I didn't catch the logic behind destroying the mothership but keeping the lifeboat for possible future time traveling emergencies. Why not keep the more advanced, not to mention better looking, of the two models?


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## ctg

Spoiler






REBerg said:


> Why not keep the more advanced, not to mention better looking, of the two models?



They did. The one that was upgraded to have an autopilot. What will they do with it, we don't know. It's under lock and key forever and ever again.


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## REBerg

ctg said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> They did. The one that was upgraded to have an autopilot. What will they do with it, we don't know. It's under lock and key forever and ever again.





Spoiler



Until that juvenile genius in the last scene perfects her invention ...


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## ctg

Spoiler






REBerg said:


> Until that juvenile genius in the last scene perfects her invention ...



Yeah, but that's the thing. If it has already been invented, and even created, it's not lost, and it's not the original idea. You only have to wait and someone else will come up with the same idea. If they are clever enough, they will solve the math and actually create the thing. Hence, it's a problem because if TT is something that you don't want to happen, banning it will make the want to do it regardless. And if that kid figures out that mummy is a Traveller, she might want to experience the same thing. Therefore, if we ever do TT, we have to make it public and not lock it in the classified projects. Otherwise we are doomed to repeat the mistakes. How many cockups you can do before you've doomed everyone to live inside a loop?


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## REBerg

Spoiler






ctg said:


> How many cockups you can do before you've doomed everyone to live inside a loop?


What? You mean we're not already in one?


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## ctg

Spoiler






REBerg said:


> What? You mean we're not already in one?



True, sometimes it feels like we have already been down this path, but for life of me I cannot prove it. But if they would acknowledge that they've 'fixed' certain things and as a result we have to endure people like Mr tRump, then we would know that they cocked it all up and they're trying their best to fix things. So, if he's a result of 'what if' fix, we are doomed and the future is going to be really crazy one. But that what if also brings up the question of what it was like before the TT alteration/paradox fix?

Can a paradox be really fixed? With this series we got a Disney ending with a possible opening for continuing the series. In the traditional way of thinking we can apply the fix and it works, but before that happens, there is going to be a number of failures. As important as the time is, how many failures you can endure before something catastrophic happens?

For some reason I cannot imagine what a catastropic TT incident would look like. I only know that it would be hazardous to travel in the zone that has been altered, as there would be a high chance that you would get trapped inside. You would be very certain that you wouldn't get back in the same time unless you can anchor yourself to the outside reality. 

Maybe you would have to be like the aliens from the Nightflyers.


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## Parson

This might have been the record for consecutive "Spoiler" posts.


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## Dave

Well, it gave closure. It tied up some loose ends to the story, made temporal sense, and explained much previously unexplained plot.  However, it wasn't a very exciting finale. Parts of it were actually quite dull. I never felt they were in any jeopardy in North Korea, which might have changed how I felt, but... 



Spoiler: but....



since they had already brought back Rufus from the dead, they were unlikely to kill off anyone else. In fact, I was expecting them to somehow rescue Flynn too.

Was that "_apparently for each significant character saved, another must be sacrificed_" a time-travel rule that was mentioned explicitly by someone, or is that just what you surmise? I didn't catch anyone saying that. In fact, the few rules that they did set for us in this show's bible, they have ultimately broken and torn up. 

The other thing is, what happened to all the Rittenhouse tough guys in the present, and sleeper agents in the past. In previous episodes we were shown the organisation to be huge and now, one single last base was all that was left. Surely, removing Jessica from the timeline could not have achieved that much change?


On the plus side, they did reference that Jiya had experienced three years of hardship, and that the Lucy and Wyatt relationship would be strained. They didn't explain the "forbidden colours" that Stanley had been raving mad about last episode. I guess he was just crazy after all.


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## ctg

Dave said:


> On the plus side, they did reference that Jiya had experienced three years of hardship, and that the Lucy and Wyatt relationship would be strained. They didn't explain the "forbidden colours" that Stanley had been raving mad about last episode. I guess he was just crazy after all.




They didn't had time to give explanations. I like that they didn't tried to cram in everything. It was a Disney ending, and it did tie down the narrative nicely. It also worked well as an American Christmas Special.


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## Scookey

It sounds like great television and appreciate the sense of detail to science but have we really proved the ixistence of parallel universes? Sure, quantum physics is an excellent tool at demonstrating many theories yet we don't even know what dark matter is or understand our own universe. As for actual time travel...


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## ctg

Scookey said:


> but have we really proved the ixistence of parallel universes?



Yes, The Multiverse Is Real, But It Won't Fix Physics

Weird! Our Universe May Be a 'Multiverse,' Scientists Say

Scientific Theory And The Multiverse Madness


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## REBerg

Spoiler






Dave said:


> Was that "_apparently for each significant character saved, another must be sacrificed_" a time-travel rule that was mentioned explicitly by someone, or is that just what you surmise? I didn't catch anyone saying that. In fact, the few rules that they did set for us in this show's bible, they have ultimately broken and torn up.


No, just a personal observation. When it comes to time travel, anyone can set the rules -- including fans.


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## farntfar

Apologies for going back quite a way in the series. I'm only just catching up, and have only just got to 1.08. Space race.

Generally I'm enjoying it, and more or less accept the "Hard SF" and "Historical" labels given in the thread title. (Apart from the argument against any hard SF that can include time travel, of course.)

But I've just noticed something very strange in this episode.
Both Anthony and Rufus are seen to mount a tape on a tape drive in the computer room, and in both cases they mount them with the yellow "write enable rings" on the spool showing which is the wrong way round.
It seems a rather trivial mistake to have made by the production team. (and quite difficult, as you would have to spool the tape on backwards à la "Paul is Dead")
Hardly rocket science after all. So why have they made it.

Has anyone else seen any apparently deliberate mistakes in the series.


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## ctg

farntfar said:


> Has anyone else seen any apparently deliberate mistakes in the series.



Yeah. There's plenty.


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## Dave

I wouldn't have called it "hard sf" or "historical" any more than _The Time Tunnel_ was. It is a little better than TV shows like _Dr Who_ but _The Ministry of Time_ is a much more accurate portrayal of history, if from a very Spanish perspective. Mistakes? Can't think of any that made me suspend my disbelief, but there must have been. Even big films like _Apollo 13_ had loads.


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## farntfar

Dave said:


> Can't think of any that made me suspend my disbelief,


I quite agree. And the fact that most of the kit in the computer room wasn't about until nearly 10 years later didn't bother me at all. 

So why mount a tape the wrong way round, when it was so easy to mount it the right way round? It doesn't make it look any better. It just seems odd.


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## ctg

farntfar said:


> So why mount a tape the wrong way round, when it was so easy to mount it the right way round?



The answer is Hollywood. They don't care and the production team doesn't always see. You also have to also add in the actors and the chance of them doing something goofy. Like Dave says, don't worry about it. Mistakes happen and you are not supposed to spot them. 

Timeless does a wonderful job on making their best to make the historical settings to look accurate. But we are living this day and they only had so little time to produce the episodes, when they're shooting that mistakes will filter in and there is no point to try to correct them in the post-production process. 

Thing that Timeless does best is to make the settings accurate enough to pass as real. We don't know for sure, because we didn't live in those times. Later on you will notice that the TimeTravel has consequences and something's that should be, aren't and it adds up even more to the pile of "mistakes." 

I recommend reading the comments. 11 pages isn't a lot.


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## farntfar

You're right, of course, ctg.
I'm just being fussy.
All in all it's pretty well done.


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## Al Jackson

ctg said:


> Yes, The Multiverse Is Real, But It Won't Fix Physics
> 
> Weird! Our Universe May Be a 'Multiverse,' Scientists Say
> 
> Scientific Theory And The Multiverse Madness


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