# Sci-fi for tommorow



## Princess Ivy (Sep 8, 2007)

I grew up reading sci-fi/fantasy and watching it on kids tv, cause lets face it - get read of the dancing purple dinosuar and other such annoying junk, and whats left but science fiction and fantasy? look at toons, right now i'm watching yin yang yo, have also had on power rangers (typical quest based sci/fi fantasy), also had on toons such as spider mand/xmen etc.., even disney is starting to get in on the sff act (though it's characterised by anoying talking animals and obscenly happy endings with no thought to the actual science behind the fiction).
so:
1. did having a wealth of science fiction/fantasy style programs on tv when you were growing up have an impact on your choice of viewing/literature in later life?
2. are we preparing a new generation to be sff fans when they reach adult hood, and hopefully more sff programing and less reality tv!


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## unclejack (Sep 8, 2007)

Hey Princess hows it goin? Good post, you raise some interesting questions. I actually have to say that I don't see that Disney has done anything that qualifies as a move in the science fiction direction. I know about Meet the Robinsons which I haven't seen yet but would like to, and I know their comin out with some sort of robot movie sometime soon that looks like crap. But ultimately Disney is so filled with fluff and humor that I doubt that they will ever present anything that is serious enough to be considered valid science fiction. That's just my thought on it, I could be wrong. 
  As for me personally, my fascination with science fiction is farely recent so no, I can't look at anything growin up that really influenced my interest in scifi. As far as a new generation of science fiction fans, I doubt it. I don't mean to be so dismissive because it really is a good question and to be honest I'm not familiar with science ficion in current kids shows and cartoons so maybe I'm not qualified to give an objective opinion on this one. My main  reason for saying no to that is because of what I see in Hollywood lately. I'm increasingly becoming an anit-hollywood person especially when I see what they are producing in the realm of sci-fi. I've found more interest in classic sci fi and foreign sci fi than I have in modern science fiction lately. I don't think Hollywood is original enough to keep things interesting enough for there to be a new genearation of science fiction fans who know anything at all about science fiction unless they go back and watch some classic sci fi. I could be wrong, there could be some hope for Hollywood left yet, but I don't think so. Enjoy whatever quality filmaking you can in Hollwood because they are very quickly running out of ideas.


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## Overread (Sep 8, 2007)

unclejack - I think you sum pretty much how I feel about current sci fi - I also hate cheap computer graphics which seem to fill all sci-fis today - give me good old Dr. Who style. Personally I think the best modern sci-fi comes out of Japan - anime - and even there the older stuff is currently the best - though england is notorious for getting these things last.


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## unclejack (Sep 9, 2007)

yeah, I'm startin to really like Japanese movies too. Their really good for horror too. I really don't like horror movies, but maybe it's just the pointless, gritty brand of horror that Hollywood is putting out that has turned me off to it. Japan has come out with some stuff that has some appeal to me even though like I said, it isn't my favorite genre.


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## steve12553 (Sep 10, 2007)

Two things. TV never drew me to Science Fiction. I was facinated by Science Fiction, Astronomy, Paleontology, Rocketry and several other branches of science the second I was aware of them. That drew me to Science Fiction TV, movies (what little of it there was when I was young) and books. I don't know what the current crop will do to young people.
Second, "Reality TV" is an oxymoron. Just like a corollary of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Theory "If you measure a particle, you change a particle." If you record and event you affect an event. The camera change the reality of the situation. It's all a put on and and cheaply made to boot, with the writing done by the editor. But I suspect I'm preaching to the choir.


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## Stone (Sep 12, 2007)

Interesting thread this Princess, well done.

to answer your questions from my perspective, yes my viewing as an adult was influenced by my tv viewing and book reading as a child, from Dungeons and Dragons, Battle of the Planets, Blakes7, Dr Who, Star Trek, The Water Margin to name a few and authors from CS Lewis, Bradbury, Tolkein and Feist..the list obviously goes on..

Others in this thread are correct that the majority of the tripe being pumped out recently by "hollywood" is generally neither original or interesting which in some ways is a real shame as they have given us some classics in the past (and still ocassionally do). Perhaps they have had it too good for too long and new another industry to kick them up the ass!

Even the shows that i do enjoy have story arcs based on previous shows, Heroes is described as the "new" LOST, the 4400 as the "new" x-files etc - rarely do we get something which is original and completely new, although the mini series called the Lost Room did in my opinion meet this criteria (apologies if this idea was stolen, it was new to me). If indeed it is different then we usually find it gets cancelled end or mid-season due to a lack of viewing figures, which generally means the Execs have figured they can spend less money making reality/celebrity tv and get double the viewing figures

No, i'm afraid i don't see us preparing the new generation as i can see the reality/celebrity tv continuing (certainly in the UK anyway) for some time to come. Unfortunatley, as long as it is watched by the mass of blinkered lemmings the execs will continue to make it at the cost of better more thought provoking and interesting tv. Our only saviour in all of this are the writers, who's books we can continue to buy/loan, and hope they will keep giving us the stories (fact or fiction) we crave


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## Overread (Sep 12, 2007)

Even when we do get something new it seems to get squashed before it can get of the ground - Fire Fly!!!
And some existing Fantasy is falling down - not directly related to books but games workshop is slowly (edit quickly) pricing itself out


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## unclejack (Sep 12, 2007)

I actually have to dissagree with Stone, I haven't seen Heroes but I've always considered it to be the new 4400. The 4400 on the other hand is my favorite show and I consider it to be very original. It really is nothing like the x-files, I see no comparison there at all. I will admit that in the first season before anyone knew anything about the 4400 and why they were there the show read alot like another alien abduction series but at the end of the first season they took it in an entirely new direction altogether. Anyway, I've seen every epsiode since the pilot episode and for anyone who is a science fiction fan and loves drama I highly recommend it. But don't watch it if you aren't willing to go back and start from the beginning because you won't understand what's goin on and you won't like it.


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## manephelien (Sep 13, 2007)

I didn't watch much TV at all until the age of 12, because my parents didn't own a set. I do remember being scared witless by the original Battlestar Galactica, which was shown in Finland in the early 1980s (until the internet made it necessary, we rarely got any shows less than 2 seasons after it had aired in its original market). After that we rented a furnished house for a year when they were working abroad (1984-85), and that's when I was exposed to some 1980s Doctor Who, a rerun of Star Trek TOS and kiddie shows that marginally qualify as sci-fi, such as Knight Rider, MacGyver and Street Hawk.

When we returned, we moved quite close to my paternal grandparents, and there I watched a few favorite shows a few times a week. When I was 15 my parents finally gave in to the inevitable and bought a TV set, and after that I watched pretty much any sci-fi related TV show that was on.


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## Quokka (Sep 13, 2007)

I think the cartoons I watched as a child definitely started off my love of SFF. It was all about anime for me then; _Battle of the Planets, Astroboy, Robotech, Starblazers _and even _Speed Racer. _Two things really drew me to these shows, firstly the animation, as soon as I saw shows like these, _Simba the Lion_ and others I loved the realism of the artwork. I never liked cartoon characters out of proportion throwing acme anvils at each other. These shows looked great and acted more real, the physics worked and the actions were at least kind of believable, well for a 6 or 7 year old they were close enough. I suppose what I mean is if something happened they usually gave at least some sort of explaination as to how.

The other big thing was that there was an ongoing storyline, in some of them quite detailed. Characters were introduced, were even killed occassionaly, people changed and season three things weren't the same as season one (to varying degrees with the shows). That's something that can be hard to find in alot of 'mainstream' shows today.

Still they were my 'gems' in a whole lot of rubbish and I think there's still some of that today, the real stand out for me would be the _Avatar_ cartoon, I dont watch it but have seen enough episodes to think I would have been a big fan as a a kid.

There's not alot for the older children/teenager age group but then again was there ever? Im sure there were some, I liked the _Tripods_ BBC show but I dont remember there being a huge choice, _Star Trek_ will probably always be around in an updated form and _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ had a pretty good run. 

I also wonder if gaming and particuarlly online gaming isn't filling a bigger role now for this age group as far as developing an interest in SFF?

Things go in cycles, super heroes are still very big and after a bit of a boost due to the LOTR movies I think TV's a bit hesitant on Fantasy right now. I think there's still enough SFF out there to interest kids, some of it even watchable but as for increasing the market at the expense of reality tv that might be pushing it .


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## Overread (Sep 13, 2007)

Quokka - I feel the same way about older cartoons - its part of the reason that I have started to watch anime - the stories and animation are more like what I grew up with and so much superior to the shows they make in the west today - predicable and empty and clearly working to a 'formula' rather than trying to tell a story.
As for online gaming - I think it has to be classed in a world of its own - unlike tv, books and many single player games the focus of the game is not the expanding storyline but more the interaction with a dynamic environment and with real people = something that the other forms do not give.


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## Stone (Sep 13, 2007)

*------POSSIBLE 4400 SPOILERS-------*

Not to turn this into a discussion over the comparisons of one tv series to another Unclejack, i think i must point out that i did not say that the 4400 was the new x-files, i said that it was described as the new x-files, i.e. in other forums and in the media, perhaps i wasn't clear on that 

I understand the differences between the shows but there is no arguing over the similarities of 2 government agents (male/female) investigating strange individuals across the country, yes i agree there is more to it than just that (especially in the new series, although we have had conspiracy theories and people from the future with marks behind their ears, not mention an episode called "Ghost in the Machine"!), but there was more to the x-files than alien abducation and in my opinion it's best stories had nothing to do with aliens and do have a similarity to many of the earlier 4400 episodes.

Don't get me wrong, the 4400 is one of the few shows i still really enjoy and i hope it continues to air. As for Heroes, well i can only say watch it then offer your view, don't want to spoil it for anyone but other than having "powers" i see no comparison at all with the 4400


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## Winters_Sorrow (Sep 13, 2007)

I'm a little like Steve in this in that I was always fascinated by dinosaurs, astronomy & mythology growing up and that led me to sci-fi/fantasy stories, television and movies rather than visa versa.

I still prefer a decent sci-fi premise in a rubbish movie rather than a dumb sci-fi premise in a better movie.


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## unclejack (Sep 13, 2007)

Stone said:


> *------POSSIBLE 4400 SPOILERS-------*
> 
> Not to turn this into a discussion over the comparisons of one tv series to another Unclejack, i think i must point out that i did not say that the 4400 was the new x-files, i said that it was described as the new x-files, i.e. in other forums and in the media, perhaps i wasn't clear on that
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, that's cool, I really didn't think you were attackin the show or anything. I was just pointin out how original it is. And yeah, in a way I can see the similarity between NTAC and the FBI's X-Files. But I think the character and the thrust of the show is very different. I've only seen a handful of x-files episodes so I don't know, maybe it has more similarites than I know. 
 That really was the main reason I didn't watch heroes, I saw it as a copy of the 4400 and other shows like it and I don't expect it to measure up so I'm not really willing to give it a chance.


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## Steve Jordan (Sep 19, 2007)

For me, SF in television, cartoons, movies and literature all helped spur my interest in SF as an adult.  However, I think it's a lot more than just having SF available to you.

Based on anecdotal evidence of my own, most people who have an appreciation of SF as an adult, had a positive opinion of science as kids.  In other words, SF lovers grew up seeing science as a positive thing.  Those who saw science as a negative thing did not grow up to appreciate SF, or they grew up to see SF as the same as horror/tragedy.  

Being in the midst of global warming, a new energy crisis, war over oil, concerns about new diseases, old diseases, bad Chinese imports, a shrinking food supply, computer viruses, overpopulation, etc, etc... I can't say there is much positive science or SF out there today, so I don't see young people getting too inspired by science, or by SF, in the future.

On the other hand, fantasy is making a comeback, so we can expect millions (or billions) of adults that will spend their days dreaming about secret passages in the wardrobes...


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## Quokka (Sep 19, 2007)

I think I'd disagree with that Steve, for exactly the reasons you point out young people are being exposed much more to science and the direct impact it has upon themselves and the wider world.

When I was growing up a scientist was a guy in white coat tucked away in a lab somewhere with his beakers bubbling away, to some extent I think this has changed. There's a better understanding by kids that scientists can be marine biologists, archeologists or other professionals all working 'in the field'.

There may not be much positive science out there but there is certainly an increasing push to say that this is stuff that can and will affect us, even threaten the survival of us and everything we share the planet with. Its less and less possible for science to be seen as irrelevant to the 'real world'.

When you add young children's optimism to their tendancy to see things in black and white and I bet there are alot of kids growing up now that dream of being the ones to save an endagered species or find a cure for diseases. 

I've almost talked myself full circle now, I do think what I've mentioned above will lead to lots of children eventually going on to study and work in a science related field but maybe the flip side to that is less interest by them in something as closely related as SF in favour of those secret passages you mentioned?

Hmm Ive really gotta start thinking these posts through, though I do still think that the overall increase in exposure to science will be good for SF in the long run.


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## Steve Jordan (Sep 20, 2007)

Things might be different in Australia, but in the U.S., fewer and fewer young people are going into science and engineering studies in school, and only about 5% of students earn science or engineering degrees.  There is a serious malaise about the sciences in the U.S., and I think it can be traced back to an attitude, propagated by the American media, that scientists are either geeks that never get laid, or people that ultimately only screw up the things they try to do, and create plagues, killer zombies, and runaway technology that will destroy us all. 

I'm not saying all American SF is negative, but the overwhelming majority of it is (or it's juvenile, or both), and it doesn't leave too many young people of a mind to save or cure anything.  They just want to get their moms to drive them to the mall in their SUVs.

Here's a question: How many positive SF movies of the last 10 years can you name?  By positive, I mean a depiction of a bright, friendly, warm, welcoming future, or a world that will be better tomorrow.  Those are the movies that inspire people to follow the sciences and enjoy SF.  I'm afraid the list is woefully short.


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## unclejack (Sep 20, 2007)

Steve Jordan said:


> For me, SF in television, cartoons, movies and literature all helped spur my interest in SF as an adult. However, I think it's a lot more than just having SF available to you.
> 
> Based on anecdotal evidence of my own, most people who have an appreciation of SF as an adult, had a positive opinion of science as kids. In other words, SF lovers grew up seeing science as a positive thing. Those who saw science as a negative thing did not grow up to appreciate SF, or they grew up to see SF as the same as horror/tragedy.
> 
> ...


 
I gotta dissagree with you there. Even though I did like science a little bit as a kid it wasn't really that big of an interest to me. And my interest in science fiction has only really been in the last couple years. For me the attraction to sci fi has alot to do with the endless possibilities of it. You can bascially go anywhere with science fiction and the boundries of it seem to be endless and I find that alot more interesting and intriguing that our present reality at times. But it's not really a metaphor on life for me, I just find it fascinating that's all.


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## Steve Jordan (Sep 20, 2007)

unclejack said:


> I gotta dissagree with you there. Even though I did like science a little bit as a kid it wasn't really that big of an interest to me. And my interest in science fiction has only really been in the last couple years.



The original question was whether SF you were exposed to when young encouraged your interest in science and SF when older.  So, in your case, the answer would be: No.

A great many scientists and engineers today attribute their interest in their fields in watching programs like the original _Star Trek_ when they were young.  _Trek_ back then was about the positive possibilities of the future.  But recent _Trek_, and other series, tend to be about ongoing wars and global catastrophes.  Today most scientists, scientific institutions, and governments, are painted in a bad light (in order, foolish, greedy, and corrupt).  The occasional maverick scientist that saves the day is the rare exception today, not the rule, and other than getting the significant other at the end, they rarely get anything else.

Put 2 and 2 together: 
Positive SF = lots of scientists and engineers.  
Negative SF = 5% scientists and engineers coming out of school.

So I daresay that if SF doesn't get more positive about the likelihood that we can make the future better, we can expect to see fewer scientists and engineers in the U.S. in the future.  I emphasize that I am talking about the U.S., since other countries have other methods at their disposal to encourage more participation in science and engineering, and are not as dependent on popular media to encourage (or discourage) our youth.


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## Quokka (Sep 21, 2007)

I was't able to find any stats for other countries so far, which is a shame as I'd be interested to know but I'm guessing your right Steve in that even if the numbers don't line up the trends probably do and I'd also assume that the growth in the computer sciences have taken students out of more traditional fields more than adding students who otherwise wouldn't have entered the sciences at all. 

It's an interesting point that in the majority of cases the scientists that are put in a positive light are 'maverick' but also in the age of _Star Trek_ you had the earlier space missions and the moon landing, that's got to have inspired people. Today there's still alot of interesting science, in some ways more relevant just less dramatic, like the mars rovers, Galileo mission etc but you really have to already have an interest in science to take more than a passing notice of it.

So what is out there today? The increasing availibility of Manga may help inspire people, particuarly in entering computer science and robotics and that may not be as far fetched as it sounds. While children were being inspired by_ Star Trek_ in the western world _Astroboy_ in particular was inspiring children throughout Japan and Asia, with what appears to be pretty good results.

Also to bring it back on topic a bit (sorry ) even though the current SF shows and movies (Men in Black, Dr Who, Matrix, Ben10, the superhero revival etc keep in mind I'm trying to think of things that would interest kids and they're probably better examples) may not be the best advertisment for entering science they may still be effective in developing an interest in science fiction?


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## Steve Jordan (Sep 23, 2007)

You would think they wouldn't hurt!  However, the kids I speak to don't seem to be talking about science or SF, they're talking about Manga-based competition cartoons and video games (the Dragonball/Pokemon kind of thing), and fantasy (ala Harry Potter, LotR, etc).  So they're being inspired, but not by science.  And I'm not sure how far those interests will get them in science careers or interest in SF.

Anyway, I'm not a schoolteacher or counselor, I don't run into hundreds of kids at a time, so maybe my opinion is not worth that much.  Just my observation.

I would like to see more positive SF on TV and in movies.  Eureka is the kind of show that I like, because it's light-hearted, but it shows science and engineering in a (mostly) positive and (mildly) accurate light.  Good for inspiring the youngsters.  I can't think of too many other current shows like that, and judging by the response to my earlier post, neither has anyone else.


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## Dave (Jan 29, 2008)

*Re: Meet the Robinsons*



unclejack said:


> I actually have to say that I don't see that Disney has done anything that qualifies as a move in the science fiction direction. I know about Meet the Robinsons which I haven't seen yet but would like to, and I know their coming out with some sort of robot movie sometime soon that looks like ****. But ultimately Disney is so filled with fluff and humor that I doubt that they will ever present anything that is serious enough to be considered valid science fiction.


I've just seen _Meet the Robinsons_. Not another film starring Robert De Niro and Ben Stiller but a Disney animation involving time travel.

I have to say that it was most disappointing, not nearly as good as the usual "talking animals" fayre.

Lewis meets his own son, who whisks him away to the future where he meets a family he always dreams of having, and where the whole future society is a product of his inventions. Unfortunately, a Bowler Hatted Man has stolen one of the time machines he designed and has changed the Timeline back in the past, aided by another invention of Lewis he discarded.

It tries, but ultimately fails, to make being a Science prodigy a cool thing, while turning his friend, the wanna-be Baseball player, into the evil villain, as if there is some kind of choice between the two. It shows that 125 sets of parents did not want to adopt Lewis because he was interested in Science; only a rather weird highly-strung woman and an odd hyper-active man.

The most depressing thing of all was that rather than living up to Lewis (and apparently Walt Disney's) own motto "Keep Moving Forward", instead Lewis' life is so completely mapped out for him he seems to have no free will left at all.


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## Overread (Jan 29, 2008)

This is the quality of Disney these days. It has died and seems to consider its audience to be mindless babies in arms. I think their last great animation was the Lion King = after that there were a few decent sequals to that and the rest can go in the bin. Its a great film to end on and they should have stopped there (note I am refering to their animations only and toy story did lift them up for a while - till Pixar realised that they did not need Disnye and went solo)


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## Steve Jordan (Jan 30, 2008)

Just for the record, I'll point out that Disney did _The Black Hole_ and _Tron_.  I won't comment here on their quality, but I will say that _Tron_ was a pretty influential movie for awhile.


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## Overread (Jan 30, 2008)

I liked The Black Hole - they were class back then - they could make something - today its so watered down and empty


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## Dave (Jan 31, 2008)

Steve Jordan said:


> I will say that _Tron_ was a pretty influential movie for awhile.


I second that! But it was also a long time ago.


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## Steve Jordan (Jan 31, 2008)

Overread said:


> I liked The Black Hole - they were class back then - they could make something - today its so watered down and empty



I actually didn't like _Black Hole_ much, I thought the premise was pretty silly... on the other hand, I was also at an age where I was having adverse reactions to the "Disney cute sidekick" thing, and that little robot (voiced by Roddy McDowell) was really cheesing me off... so my opinion may be duly discolored... 

I liked the premise of _Tron_ more (not that it didn't also have its "Disney cute sidekick," the Bit, but I dealt with it better)... sort of a _Matrix_ precursor, though probably equally silly.  But I'll accept an Alternate Universe-type story over a Bad Science story any day, so between two silly movies, I'll stick with _Tron_.


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## MG1962 (Jan 31, 2008)

The defining momment for me - Man landing on the Moon - I could not get enough of this outer space stuff - still cant - I have been passionate about science fiction for nearly 40 years - I still don't see any reason to stop


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