# Veggie Cars...



## McMurphy

Excuse me if this sounds braindead, but I am wondering whether there is some sort of catch to "veggie cars" (i.e.: vehicles that can run on vegetable oil, etc.)? If it can perfom at the same level as a gas guzzling car, then why isn't everyone using them? I am not looking for a political answer (for I do think that there is huge political and corporate interest to avoid alternative power sources as long as possible); rather, a scientific one. It would seem that such an invention would make a killing with customers. What pieces am I missing in this puzzle?


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## Alexa

What a funny idea ! I'm not sure I'll be interested using my olive oil, both in the kitchen and for the car. It would be too expensive !  

On a serious tone, I have no idea if scientists looked into this as an alternative. Who knows ? Maybe somebody tried and had no succes. After all at the beginning of the century, they had some strange idea about cars.

Instead, the hybrid cars with gasoline engine and electric onboard power are on vogue. The Japs are on top with them, as usual. It seems the crise of gasoline encouraged all the car compagnies to build a new type, both high tech and environmental. Those on hydrogen basis will be abandoned.


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## Alexa

Geez. I have to read more. They really have veggie cars !  



> You can buy cooking oil and use it straight from the bottle (very expensive), or you can get it used from restaurants, which is commonly called Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO) [photo]. WVO must be filtered prior to use since it contains many food particles. SVO/WVO are derived from plants such as peanuts, soy, canola/rape seed, and other grains.


 
In the same article there are pros and cons of Converting a Diesel Engine to Run Vegetable Oil.



> "McCormick, a senior fuels engineer for the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Golden, CO, said studies have shown that running vehicles on vegetable oil can reduce a car's lifespan. 'Those vehicles aren't going to last as long as they would running on conventional fuel,' McCormick said. 'Diesel engines are supposed to be low-maintenance and long-lasting engines. Running on straight vegetable oil, I don't think that's going to happen.'" Source: The Kansas City Star; "One Man's Fish Fry Grease is Another Man's Vehicle Fuel" March 29, 2005. However, many others claim the opposite; "engine wear is greatly reduced, sometimes tripling engine life for engines running on straight vegetable oil." Source: www.distributiondrive.com.[/QUOTE]
> 
> source : http://www.noendpress.com/caleb/biodiesel/index.php#why


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## Brian G Turner

Well...I have to say, I'd love to see how polluting emissions from vegetable oil-driven engines compare - it seems that carbon neutral factors are skewed into the equation, which I consider a little disingenious. 

Personally I'm sceptical that vegetable oil is going to be particularly cleaner by direct comparison of vehicle emissions. Also, does biodiesel give off any specific complex compounds that may create future problems?

Also, I know a lot of food outlets that use vegetable oil also get money for returning it to the vendor for purifying - in other words, they are already recycling their oil. In which case I'm not convinced that it's going to be all that accessible or cheap for drivers. 

Overall, I've not seen an argument that there are clear benefits using vegetable oil, other than the basis of not adding existing carbon stores to the atmosphere - an argument that in isolation I don't think is honestly addressing the problems of scaling up biodiesel use (ie, having to plough up countryside to create biodiesel plantations).

2c.


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## Thadlerian

I'd say the main issue with biofuel is that you need to put almost as much energy into making it as you extract. It's the whole crop process, you know: Ploughing, sowing, fertilizing, harvesting, transporting. The prices go up, which to an extent is OK when you grow food, but which makes it hard to compete with oil.

But I think we should keep researching the matter. The should, for instance, be no issue with genetically enhancing plants that are not to be eaten anyway. And westen agriculture must sooner or later face huge reforms if it is to continue existing at the same time as allowing developing countries into the international market.


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## chrispenycate

The Brazilians, who had an excess of sugar cane and no oil wells took to running their guvernment vehicules on alcohol. After a short trial period they were forced to add a little petrol to their pumps, to stop people siphoning police cars dry and drinking it. As far as I know they're still running like that- minor ajustment to the carburettor or fuel injection system.
Biodiesel here (in Switzerland) is largely using oilseed rape, which makes the fields nice and yellow and, typically for a brassica, sucks all the goodness out of the soil. Not really all that ecologic.
But I believe that other vegetable waste could be fermented and distilled for alcohol, as long as it's not intended for consumption- the problem being that this would be so much more expensive than petroleum products, which are dirt cheap before governments start slapping on their taxes.
Finally, the hybrid heat engine/ electric cars could be run on biofuels, and maintain the advantage of reciprocal braking, reclaiming the energy when the vehicle slows rather than throwing it away in heat and worn brake pads.
Just what percenage of cars were you intending to run on used chip fat anyway?


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## dwndrgn

I think the biggest advantage would be the fact that vegetable oil is a renewable resource and can be grown/processed anywhere as opposed to petroleum which needs serious pressure and time to be renewed.  No telling on emissions yet, though the oil gets burned on a regular basis by cookeries everywhere, so one would think that the possible emissions would be at the very least, easy to discover if someone put their minds to it.  It would also seem to 'gunk' up an engine, I haven't heard anything on this but I know that restaurant hood systems need to be cleaned regularly and it isn't easy.  Messy, nasty job.  I'd think the fuel system would have to be cleaned regularly somehow.  I know of one tv star that drives a wagon that's been converted and loves it but I don't know how long she's been doing it - at the very least 6 months or so (that's when I read about it).  I'm sure it smells better!


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## Alexa

As I could see a veggie car is an expensive and "dirty" solution. Should we try to have an electric or a solar or an eolian one ?


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## dwndrgn

Here's another recent article on hyrdogen cars from the LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-hy-design16nov16,0,6288027.story?coll=la-home-headlines

and they have a photo of my future car...the Hyundai Greenspeed Gator (a concept car of course that runs on hydrogen)


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## chrispenycate

A l'attaaaaack
Hydrogen as a fuel- advantages. 
Well, it's easy to make. Any of the tide power/wave power, even conventional hydroelectric power stations could be designed or easily modified to electrolise water and produce hydrogen. It burns clean, and being much lighter than air. in case of an accident tends to leave the scene upwards, rather than spreading out on the ground.
General:- 
It's practically impossible to liquify, meaning that it has to be stored as a highly compressed gas. High pressure cylinders are generally to be avoided in mobile situations. Alternatively, it can be occluded into palladium sponge, and released as nescessary. A good solution if A: the hydrogen is routinely pure enough not to poison the sponge and B: enough palladium is available in the world to equip a reasonable fraction of the worlds motor vehicles.
It requires an engine designed for it, not a conversion (mind you, that information came from a motor manufacturer so should probably be taken with reserve) If used in a conventional heat engine (explosion, gas turbine or steam ) the efficiency of the engine depends on the temperature of the combustion, so the "waste products only steam" standard comment is optimistic- there are plenty of oxides of nitrogen from burning air, so you can still get acid rain- still, it's better than almost anything else. Fuel cells driving electric motors (and if you can use reciprocal braking to electrolyse some of the waste water, superb. In fact, if you've got the compression pump there, you could use house current to electrolyse and governments would never be able to tax it) while it sounds a bit heavy (heavier than an engine block?) and I don't like the idea of the molten salts in the case of an accident (sorry to keep harping on about accidents but non optimal situations are important- imagine a system that wouldn't work in subzero conditions) and an energy conversion system can never be as efficient as an equivalent single energy system, still, it's elegant.   
Drawbacks: The teeny little hydrogen molecule osmoses, diffuses or sneaks through seals that hold almost anything else. Fill a toy balloon with hydrogen, it'll all be gone by morning. Which makes fuel tanks and piping difficult, and refuelling valves precision engineering. And a distribution network (fueling stations, high pressure tankers, specialised pipelines) would have to be built from scratch- and a hydrogen powered vehicle can only be used where there are filling stations, while it's only worth building the stations where there is an apreciable number of users.


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## Alexa

As per my infos, those with hydrogen have good chances to be abandoned because of the competition of the new Japonse hybrids.


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## chrispenycate

Alexa said:
			
		

> As per my infos, those with hydrogen have good chances to be abandoned because of the competition of the new Japonse hybrids.


But the hybrids are an improvement, not a solution- they still use petrochemicals, just more efficiently. Adding solar panels, same story.

A hydrogen, biogas, biodiesel or alcohol fueled hybrid would be relatively futureproof. An improvement in storage batteries could make all of this irrelevant- the Heinlein "Shipstones" don't break any natural laws, and would move the goalposts somewhere into the dressing rooms.


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## Alexa

I agree with you, but it seems that's what we have to expect on the market from all the famous car marks in the next few years. 

Maybe they are just afraid to adopt a radical changement. Or the oil companies have to much influence on the market.


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## rogerinfrance

I have been on and off running my diesel vehicles on up to 25%sunflower oil.
However, do not use very much in HDI engines, about 5% is good unless on a long run when engine and oil get warm. A slight increase is OK then. Avoid letting any veggied diesel fuel get really cold, do not use olive oil or hydrogenated oil. For the record, diesel designed diesels to run on peanut oil and the engine operation was hijacked by fuel companies.


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