# Refurbing the old stuff - aviation



## Swank (Dec 11, 2022)

The late '50s was an interesting era for aviation design. Some of the highest flying and fastest aircraft every were projects started back then, including the SR-71 and YB-70.

An aircraft of note from the that time was the F-4 Phantom II fighter plane, fielded first by the US Navy, Marines and Air Force. A powerful aircraft with good range, it hit its first snag when pilots were forced to dogfight more nimble Korean War era designs due to visual ID requirements. The F-4's power was utilized to turn the usual horizontal turns of a the dogfight into a vertical battle where energy was the key player - and the F-4s dominated their tighter turning opponents.

With 3 branches using the F-4, the US had a lot of them. As the aircraft aged, it became a good candidate for foreign aid - and ended up in many allied air forces, where it continued to serve well as at least a decent supersonic attack aircraft and sometimes air superiority fighter. In the US, the last version - the F-4J - received an updated slat system in the wings that greatly enhanced maneuverability at high angles of attack. But it still had old fashioned turbojet engines.

Israel, always looking for an advantage, had a lot of aging F-4s in the '70s, but none of the new generation of fighter aircraft typified by the US F-15, F-16 or F-14. These planes had more advanced avionics, radar, turbofan engines and high maneuverability shapes. Israel's enemies were likely to end up with fighters of this generation, whether they were American, French or Russian in origin - but the US laws at the time prevented selling the top end F-15 and F-16 to Israel. So they planned to make their own.


Israel developed an F-16 like single engine fighter, built around a brand new a rather compact turbofan engine that produced power and efficiency similar to what the F-16 and and F-15 used. And then they realized that this engine would fit in an F-4 fuselage. Like how the small F-16 uses one of the engines that the larger F-15 has two of, the bigger F-4 could be given a major boost by using these turbofans. So plans were drawn up to modernize the existing Israeli F-4s with new engines, radar, controls and wing slats.

The testing proved it as a good idea. The upgraded F-4 could accelerate straight up and even supercruise (maintain supersonic speeds without afterburner). It wasn't until the recent development of the US F-22 that any fighter could supercruise, yet here's one from the 1950s doing it. The other upgrades made the old plane suddenly a near even match to the shiny new F-15 in terms of combat maneuverability, range, speed and load. 

But Israel had other concerns, and needed a spy plane. The point of aircraft like the SR-71 is that they flew so fast (Mach 3), that ground missiles wouldn't catch them before the rocket ran out. Using the new engines, a new air intake design and water injection from conformal tanks on the upper fuselage, this modified F-4 was capable of sustained Mach 3 flight. (The water expands radically as it flashed to steam in the exhaust.)



The F-4 looks like an oddball design from a very bygone era, but without a change in US policy that ended up sending many F-15s and F-16s to Israel, these upgrades would have become common in Israel as well as places like Turkey.


This fascinates me because it is the equivalent of taking a 1965 Aston Martin and upgrading the engine and suspension to produce a car that would compete with a late '80s Ferrari Testarossa.


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## THX1138 (Dec 11, 2022)

Just goes to show that you can teach an old dog new tricks! Great article and a bit of history as well.
The Israelis are very creative in taking something good, and in a short time making it better.


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## Abernovo (Dec 11, 2022)

I remember the Phantom from my childhood (service kid). I think the thing that finally did for many Phantoms was airframe and component fatigue, due to them being flown so many hours. It became costly to maintain, and even more to upgrade, as parts became more scarce, and the F-4 was no longer produced.

Some planes are just great designs. Look at the Douglas DC-3 Skytrain (later morphed into the C-47 Dakota). First flew in 1936, has had a number of roles, and is still flying today, as a cargo and commercial passenger transport, in places with poor airfields. Its design contributed to many of the planes which came after it.

Or, continuing the 1950s theme, the Cessna 172. First flow in 1955, and still in production(!), with more produced than any other plane, they claim.


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## Astro Pen (Dec 12, 2022)

Worth noting that Israel was developing its own fighter, very comparable, some say superior, to the F16 (as alluded to but not named in the OP)
The Lavi  (Young Lion)
To my eye a very beautiful plane too.















						IAI Lavi - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				







__





						IAI Lavi Multi-Role Fighter | Military-Today.com
					

The Lavi multi-role fighter was developed by the IAI in the 1980s. This fighter project was cancelled in 1987 due to funding problems. Only five airframes were ever built.



					www.military-today.com


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## Swank (Dec 12, 2022)

Astro Pen said:


> Worth noting that Israel was developing its own fighter, very comparable, some say superior, to the F14
> The Lavi  (Young Lion)
> To my eye a very beautiful plane too.
> 
> ...


Actually, the Lavi is the "F-16-like" Israeli fighter that they used the engine out of for the F-4 upgrade. You can see that the Lavi is nothing like an F-14, which is enormous, has swing wings and two engines.






F-16


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## Astro Pen (Dec 12, 2022)

Swank said:


> Actually, the Lavi is the "F-16-like" Israeli fighter that they used the engine out of for the F-4 upgrade. You can see that the Lavi is nothing like an F-14, which is enormous, has swing wings and two engines.


Correct, I meant F16.  I'll correct the typo.


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## Foxbat (Dec 12, 2022)

Being a delta wing, I’d say the Lavi looks more like a Typhoon than an F16


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## Swank (Dec 12, 2022)




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## Foxbat (Dec 13, 2022)

Interesting. Was that a prototype because the production F16 is not a delta wing.


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## Swank (Dec 13, 2022)

Foxbat said:


> Interesting. Was that a prototype because the production F16 is not a delta wing.


Yeah. It was a prototype, testbed and proposal for the F-15E request.


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## Foxbat (Dec 13, 2022)

I was curious as to why a particular wing design might be chosen in preference to another and found this. 








						delta wing , swept wing , swing wing ,Trapezoidal wing disadvantages and advantages
					

what the advantages and disadvantages of these different kind of wings ? ( delta wing , swept wing , swing wing ,Trapezoidal wing ) why aircraft like mig-25 , f-15 use swept wing in stead of delta design ( they are much faster than mirage , F-106 )




					www.key.aero


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## Swank (Dec 13, 2022)

Other developments:


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## Foxbat (Dec 13, 2022)

What on earth is that? It looks a bit like a Flanker but the dropped wingtips are a bit different.

Are those oddly positioned canards behind the second cockpit or are they some kind of stabilising/flow directing winglets? 
Canards are normally on delta wings (and this is not) so I'd guess these are some kind of aerodynamic stabiliser or flow director.


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## Foxbat (Dec 13, 2022)

And just to (semi) answer my own question, the SU30 Flanker (there is a Malaysian version - SU30 MKM) does indeed have canards (although it's not a delta wing). As far as I can tell, having them helps with payload so perhaps this lookalike has them for a similar reason?


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## Swank (Dec 14, 2022)

Foxbat said:


> What on earth is that? It looks a bit like a Flanker but the dropped wingtips are a bit different.
> 
> Are those oddly positioned canards behind the second cockpit or are they some kind of stabilising/flow directing winglets?
> Canards are normally on delta wings (and this is not) so I'd guess these are some kind of aerodynamic stabiliser or flow director.


Canards are usually used to balance a more rear mounted wing, delta or not, but they have also been experimented with using them to increase maneuverability. Here's an F-4:





F-16





F-15





F-19


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## Pyan (Dec 14, 2022)

Going non-military for a moment:

Elvis Presley's Private Jet Is Going Up for Auction


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## Foxbat (Dec 14, 2022)

And much closer to home (my home in east Lothian) it's not so much a refurb but a build from scratch of a Sopwith Strutter.








						The men who spent 20 years building a fighter plane
					

The aviation enthusiasts hope their replica World War One aircraft will be able to take to the skies.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## CupofJoe (Dec 14, 2022)

I still like the joke that went around in the 70s and 80s.
The MRCA [Multi Role Combat Aircraft] in the name of the Panavia Tornado stood for Must Refurbish Canberra Again.


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## Astro Pen (Dec 14, 2022)

B52 based passenger jetliner.


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## Pyan (Dec 15, 2022)

They did it with the Avro Lancaster after the war, re-named the Lancastrian.




Avro 691 Lancastrian - transport

This one's had the outer Merlin engines replaced by experimental RR Nene turbojets. November, 1946.


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## THX1138 (Dec 15, 2022)

P51 Mustangs have been refurbished/redesigned for Air Racing and Pylon Racing

A refurbished P51





A modern P51 used in Air Rasing.


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