# D Day 60th anniversary



## Foxbat (May 30, 2004)

I was somewhat saddened to watch the news this morning - and find that a survey showed that many teenagers now have no idea what D Day was. Some thought that it happened in 1899 when president Denzel Washington invaded New Zealand (surely somebody is taking the mickey!).

The people who died were not much more than teenagers themselves in many cases -  and it saddens me that the sacrifices made in the landings (and all other battles of both WW 1 a & 2) seem to be fading into oblivion.

My own family have links - my uncle served on HMS Nelson and HMS Belfast - still on display in London. Another uncle was in the Merchant Navy and was torpedoed twice  in the Atlantic (both times hanging on to flotsam until he was rescued). My  father tried to join the RAF (but was underage). My grandfather trained at Spein Bridge with the Commandos and fought through northern France.

Personally, I think the sacrifice made was too great, too important to let it slide into the pit of mediocrity. If these people had not fought, the face of the world could have been very different. So...any opinions out there? Should we just forget and move on - or should we remember, honour, and teach the sacrifices made to new generations? 

Lest we forget.


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## Hypes (May 30, 2004)

I've encountered the same. Even general knowledge about WW2 is lacking, which is frightening. It was the single most cataclysmic event of that century; it should never be forgotten.

What also bothers me is the effect Hollywood has on our remembered history, the later generations have all been brainwashed by it.

One good example is the overstatement of America's contribution to the war (though important, it was far from warranting the infamous argument: "If it hadn't been for us, you'd be speaking german") and the toned down role of the USSR and Britain, both of whom played a highly crucial part in the liberation of occupied mainland Europe.


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## polymorphikos (May 31, 2004)

Don't forget the ANZAC forces in Papua New Guinea and North Africa, who played crucial roles in defeating the Italians and holding back the Japanese. They took Port Morsby, and we literaly wouldn't be here without the ANZACs, and the US forces under McArthur. In Australia, however, we have something of an inverted problem. Everyone knows about the veterans of the Great War and the infamous stand at Gallipoli, and WWI diggers are virtualy deified in this country. However, WWII, by far the more important war to our country as most of nations involved in the first war were in in Europe, and we would probably have suffered few changes as a result of a lesser victory or even a loss, is greatly neglected. Few people understand the importance of it all, and "worship" the ANZACs of WWI for absolutely ridiculous reasons. Gallipoli was a massive defeat due to poor management by the British high command, and a very unfortunate incident, but we have to understand the actual play overall through the next thirty years to se all the mistakes made and such. Most people these days just see ANZAC Day as an excuse to get drunk, say our nation is great, talk about a masive defeat as though it were our nation's finest our, and then curse the British as sons-of-bitches (something this board frequently proves wrong) inspite of most of the responsibility landing on only a few officers's heads and Churchill going on to more than redeem himself later on.

So. Got sidetracked and such. My rants are becoming more frequent.

<reaches for pills and swallows a handful> 

Aaah.


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## littlemissattitude (May 31, 2004)

Foxbat said:
			
		

> I was somewhat saddened to watch the news this morning - and find that a survey showed that many teenagers now have no idea what D Day was. Some thought that it happened in 1899 when president Denzel Washington invaded New Zealand (surely somebody is taking the mickey!).


I agree that it's sad that kids now don't have any idea of anything about World War II.  But it's even worse than that, really.  About twenty years ago, in the early 1980s, I took a college course in US history.  At that time, not even ten years after the end of the Vietnam conflict, most of the people in the class didn't know where Vietnam was or what went on there.  That was really shocking to me, especially since in this area we have - and had even then - such a high population of Vietnamese and Laotian (mostly Hmong) refugees.  In fact, last I heard Fresno county has the second largest Hmong population in the world outside of Laos.

But it does especially appal me that World War II and those who fought it are so forgotten.  My father was in what was then called the Army Air Force and fought in World War II, flying missions as a radio operator out of North Africa over Italy.  His plane was shot down and he spent two years as a "guest" of the Nazis in a prisoner of war camp.  In fact a film, "Stalag 17", was made based on a play written by a man who was in the same camp my father was in.  Although my father didn't know the man who wrote the play, he always said that  he recognized some of the characters in the film as being based on people he knew while he was there.

My father often made light of his experience there, but from the stories he told it was obviously a harrowing experience.  At one point, a guard shot him in the leg because he strayed into a forbidden area while chasing a baseball.  Every day, you see, was a life or death matter even though he was no longer actively engaged in fighting the war.  It was especially serious for him because he had been born in Germany (his family immigrated to the US when he was a child), and had to hide that and the fact that he understood what the guards were saying when they spoke German.  It could have been much harder for him if the camp authorities has found that out.


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## Brian G Turner (May 31, 2004)

Hypes said:
			
		

> I've encountered the same. Even general knowledge about WW2 is lacking, which is frightening. It was the single most cataclysmic event of that century; it should never be forgotten.
> 
> What also bothers me is the effect Hollywood has on our remembered history, the later generations have all been brainwashed by it.


 Absolutely right - there's definitely room for another wave of WWII films. Unfortunately, Hollywood always seems eager to re-write history, which conveys the greatest disrespect on those involved. At least Private Ryan tried to bring some sense of it all to the modern audience, but we could do with some big "epic" pictures.

 When we were kids we would always ask the older generation what they did in the war - it was fascinating to listen to - those who would talk about it anyway. What saddens me particularly is how every year, fewer people remain who carry those experiences to tell. And WWI - almost consigned entirely to books, now.


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## Foxbat (May 31, 2004)

Polymorhikos: I agree, it's very easy to get blinkered and forget other nation's contributions. The ANZAC forces played a major role and the UK probably couldn't have held on by its fingertips in the far east if not for them (not forgetting their roles in North Africa and Italy).

Their are other unsung contributions - The Shetland Bus for example - a group of volunteers who ran arms and supplies to the Norwegian resistance. Quite simply - there were heros all around the world to which we owe a great debt.

Littlemiss: For Americans not to know the location is truely frightening. I'm speechless. By the way, I've seen the film Stalag 17 (that's the one with the Chess set  ) and I love it!



> When we were kids we would always ask the older generation what they did in the war - it was fascinating to listen to - those who would talk about it anyway. What saddens me particularly is how every year, fewer people remain who carry those experiences to tell. And WWI - almost consigned entirely to books, now.


So true.


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## Hypes (May 31, 2004)

I remember trying to ask my grandfather of his experiences, but without much luck.

My father proved to be a far more interesting interview subject, on the other hand.


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## Foxbat (Jun 4, 2004)

I just want to mention a man from my home town called Jock Wilson. He is 101 years old and fought through the D Day landings (he was 40 at the time). He won the Military Medal for his exploits that day (which included knocking out a German 88mm gun). Last week he was awarded the Legion D’Honneur by the French people (their highest award) and is off to visit the graves of his fallen comrades – probably for the very last time in his life. The bravery of him and others just like him changed the face of the world.

Jock, we need more people like you.


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## Hypes (Jun 4, 2004)

Give him our regards. He is truly a hero we should all regard in the highest esteem.


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## Foxbat (Jun 6, 2004)

I've just been watching the ceremonies on TV - only the hardest of hearts could not be moved by these images. Also, good to see some of the other nations like Norway and Poland represented - sometimes they don't get the recognition they deserve (let's face it, bravery doesn't stop at borders) - and I was particularly pleased to see the German Chancellor was invited. It kind of gave the whole event a sense of closure.
Highlight of the day: Saw Old Jock on TV talking to the PM and he was looking fine.


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## Hypes (Jun 6, 2004)

_::wipes a tear_​


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## Sirathiel (Jun 7, 2004)

Actually, the then German chancellor Kohl was invited to attend to the ceremonies at the 40th and 50th D Day anniversary. It is unclear why he refused the first invitation and stated that he did not want to be invited the second time round. There are some rumours afloat, but they don't give a real reason.

One that is propagated by the French media is that he had a brother who died in the Normandy on D-Day. But as I said, this may be a tragic event for him, but it isn't a politically understandable reason to refuse to attend.

Just thought I'd add that little tidbit.


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## Foxbat (Jun 7, 2004)

Talking of people who didn't want to attend: First Minister of Scotland Jack McConnel provoked a tidal wave of fury last Thursday when he intended to go to a golf club dinner at the Royal and Ancient  rather than attend Normandy. Eventually, he relented and said it was all a big misunderstanding but I think the damage is already done and some Scots will never forgive him for this (myself included).


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## Hypes (Jun 7, 2004)

I read up on the McConnel incident. The words: _"Rhino in china shop"_ come to mind.


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## Brian G Turner (Jun 8, 2004)

Rhodri Morgan of Wales did the same thing - trynig to get the Ryder Cup into Wales, or something. 

 I didn't see the ceremonies during the day, but I did watch a good 2 hour BBC drama-documentary on it last night. 

 I'm also very glad to see Gerhard Shroeder at the ceremony - a point was made that the German people were also liberated from Nazism. This is a really salient point - I have great regard for the German Army of WWII, probably because I've read up on Rommel and the general disregard the German Army had of the SS and politics in general. I really hate to see it when the German soldiers themselves are demonised, and always glad to see them humanised. At least documentaries give them that credit these days. The SS can go to hell, though.


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## Foxbat (Jun 8, 2004)

I completely agree with your points on the German Army and some of its many fine generals. Sometimes we do forget that the vast majority of German soldiers were just ordinary human beings fighting for their country. It's important we remember them as well.


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## erickad71 (Jun 8, 2004)

> Sometimes we do forget that the vast majority of German soldiers were just ordinary human beings fighting for their country.


 
Couldn't the same be said for every soldier from every war throughout history?

No disrespect, just curious. If I'm making a too broad generalization maybe you could give me some examples.


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## Brian G Turner (Jun 8, 2004)

Quite true - but perhaps it could be suggested that the ordinary German soldiers were used to be too easily confused with the horrific ideological fanaticism of the SS and the Nazi party itself. Most armies in history are not plagued by such a seriously horrific association.


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## Foxbat (Jun 9, 2004)

I think Brian is right - it's a case of being able to differentiate between the ordinary German soldier and the fanatical Nazi. 

Another thing to bear in mind: There are none of our countrys whiter than white or beyond criticism - after all Great Britain invented the Concentration Camp - and then there was  the massacre of Mai Lae (not sure of the spelling) in the Vietnam war.


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## erickad71 (Jun 9, 2004)

What I meant was, soldiers believe they are fighting for the good of their own country. No matter what country they are from. I would say that it is usually the higher ups who have a different agenda. I would have to be completly niave to say that one country is above repoach compared to any other.


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## polymorphikos (Jun 10, 2004)

Foxbat said:
			
		

> Another thing to bear in mind: There are none of our countrys whiter than white or beyond criticism - after all Great Britain invented the Concentration Camp - and then there was the massacre of Mai Lae (not sure of the spelling) in the Vietnam war.


The town is ironically spelt Mi Lai, and pronounced Me Lie. 

Good points all. As some guy on TV once said, "Everything is subjective". That is probably the most important thing to realise about the human race.


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## littlemissattitude (Jun 10, 2004)

I think another thing to keep in mind is that, in many cases, the rank and file soldier fighting in wars have often not had much of a choice but to be in the military.  Of course, today here in the States we have the "all volunteer" army (although with the stop-loss order prohibiting exit from the military for those about to reach the end of their enlistments, now in effect for those in or about to be sent to Iraq, I think some of the "volunteer" aspect of it has been invalidated - but that's another issue for another thread).  But during World War II, men were drafted into the army in most if not all nations.

Certainly that was true in Germany during World War II, as well as in the States.  In fact, the Germans even tried to draft men who had immigrated to other nations and had become citizens of those nations.  That happened to my dad's father.  He had been living here in the States since 1925 and had become a naturalized American citizen.  Still, when the Germans were getting ready to invade Poland, my grandpa got a letter from the German army, orders to report for duty.  Of course, the family story goes, he just cursed Hitler roundly and threw the letter in the fire (he hadn't liked being in the military in the first World War, and he hated Hitler).  It wasn't as if they were going to come over here and cart him bodily back to Germany.  The point is, they could force men in Germany to go into the military, and I'm sure there were a lot of them who were there against their will, or who at least were fighting for their country rather than their government.  That, of course, cannot be said for the men in the SS, but they are another issue aside from the rank and file soldier.

I can understand my grandpa's sentiment in throwing that letter in the fire.  On the other hand, what a neat historical document that would have been to have now.


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## Varangian (Aug 28, 2011)

Hypes, whilst I agree that the ANZACS punched well above their weight in both world wars (in fact it was mostly the Australians that held Tobruk for so long in WWII, even going so far as to taking Italian artillery pieces and attaching them onto the back of trucks in order to combat German tanks), I do have to disagree about your comment regarding the U.S. forces.

Whilst the Australian soldiers did an incredible job holding and pushing back the Japanese in PNG and Timor (Z Special Unit did an incredible job in both of these countries), if it weren't for the Americans we (speaking as an Australian) would be speaking Japanese. The Americans (namely the USMC) made incredible sacrifices taking out small islands half of which they couldn't even pronounce. The U.S. Navy who started with 3 aircraft carriers in 1941 took on and defeated the Japanese Imperial Navy. 

Whilst I do understand that the British, Canadians, free French, Russians, Tito's Bandits etc. played an integral part in the allied victory of WWII, in the Australasian theatre of WWII, it was a very different story. The U.S. forces played a very large part in defending Australia from Japanese invasion (which was closer than many people know).


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