# Who was the Fisher King?



## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Jun 22, 2004)

I recently read an intersting book by Tim Powers called The Drawing of The Dark. It drew upon several elements of European myth, including  Arthurian legend, Celtic and Viking folklore, and so on. It also featured a man known as the Fisher King, who is described as the 'king of the west'. 

I have read a bit about the Fisher King in passing, but cannot recall much about his origins and significance in real mythology. I was hoping perhaps someone could help me out a bit with some background info.


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## Blue Mythril (Jun 22, 2004)

Well, if you want a lot of detail on the Fisher King, feel free to go here: http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/arthurian_legend/grail/fisher/.
I think in general he is seen as the keeper of the Grail. I seem to recall reading about him somewhere in realation to the Sidhe folk or Faerie, can't really recall it though...
I think mainly though, he is portrayed as a great knight who, because of a wound (which changes depending on the version) he can no longer ride out and spends the time fishing. A young boy (often portrayed as percival) conneted to the Grail hunt stumbles across him one day. I think he gives him a sword or something...
Come to think on it, I'm not too sure really...
sorry *blushes*


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Jun 22, 2004)

That link seems fascinating. Thanks for that. 


Yes, I remember reading about him in some Grail legend or other - I wonder if he wasn't mentioned in passing in Umberto Eco's Baudolino as well?


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## Blue Mythril (Jun 22, 2004)

Never read Baudolino, but he does appear in deveral forms of the grail myths, glad to be of help (small though it was )


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Jun 23, 2004)

Fascinating stuff!!! For anyone who is interested but doesn't have the time, here is an overview of what this myth may mean, from the Conclusion in the link above:



> What we have in the figure of the Fisher King, it seems to me, is an intermediary between two planes of existence, the present and the hereafter. With his intimate ties to the land, he is a symbol of the fructifying force in Nature, but he does not revel in this role. Instead, he is confined to an otherworld domain, surrounded by  charmed hallows that only prolong his suffering until the arrival of a hero. In general, the mythic dynamism of Arthurian Romance is the primitive struggle of man to compel and control the force of Nature, the very force on which the Fisher King's life depends. So he represents something of a paradox: he is a remnant of some much older Irish or Celtic god who was overrun by the Arthurian tradition and then incorporated into the stories as the keeper of the ultimate treasure, infused with life so that he might die a preordained death.
> In modern times the Fisher King has developed into an broad archetype, identified with personal anguish and moral or ideological sterility.


I notice that the section of excerpts from works that mention the Fisher King includes a passage from another Tim Powers novel.


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## Lacedaemonian (Jun 28, 2004)

Was Robin Williams the FisherKing?  There is slight Grail references in that film.  Inebriated tramps stealing garbage.  Excellent.  

Did the Fisher King not come from Germanic Grail legends?


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## littlemissattitude (Jun 28, 2004)

Interesting, knivesout.  I hadn't run across "The Drawing of the Dark".  I'll have to track it down and read it.

The other Tim Powers book that deals extensively with the Fisher King (and is quoted in the website linked above) is "Last Call", which I've reviewed here: http://www.chronicles-network.com/book-reviews/p/timothy-powers/timothy-powers-last-call-reviews-1.php.  "Last Call" is the first of a trilogy (sort of - the first two books, "Last Call" and "Expiration Date" don't seem connected, but the third book, "Earthquake Weather" brings the first two books together);  "Earthquake Weather" also touches on this idea.  These books localize the "king of the west" idea specifically to the western United States, which is unique, I think.  These books are much more urban fantasy, taking place in the approximate present rather than in the past.  I liked these books a lot.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Jun 29, 2004)

Yes, it was partly on the strength of your mentions of Powers, and this review, that I picked up a book by him. I suspect that, as an early work, Drawing of the Dark  is not as strong as his later books, but it is a good weekend read, fun and well-paced, although there were certain things about the last few chapters that I had a few niggles with.


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## Leto (Nov 18, 2004)

knivesout said:
			
		

> That link seems fascinating. Thanks for that.
> 
> 
> Yes, I remember reading about him in some Grail legend or other - I wonder if he wasn't mentioned in passing in Umberto Eco's Baudolino as well?


Yup, they're supposed to go and find him at one point.


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## Lacedaemonian (Nov 18, 2004)

Jesus was the fisher king.  The fisher of men.


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## guthrie (Jan 7, 2005)

As far as I can remember, the Fisher king was the man that one of Arthurs knights on the grail quest met, and was actually that knights father.  The knight failed to see that his job was to take ovwer from the emasculated fisher king, and thus didnt do anyone any good.  It was about fertility and renewal.  

The important thing to remember about the grail and Arthurian legends is that they acreted stories in various forms.  The original Arthurian legends were Celtic, and over the early medieval period were taken over and interwoven with a host of other stories and ideals.  Any Christian references are secondary to the actual meaning of the stories, and thus taking Jesus as the fisher king is going too far.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Jan 8, 2005)

Confusingly, the Arthurian legends refer to more than one person as the Fisher King, which may indicate the title itself is meant to indicate a sacred function, or a hereditary role in the Celtic mysteries, rather than a single individual.  Caitlin Matthews makes this point at great length in "Arthur and the Sovereignty of Britain," bringing in practically the whole of Celtic mythology to bolster her argument.  A brief quote from her book:

"[The] hereditary guardianship of the Hallows becomes a prime feature of later Grail stories and represents the passing over of one mythic pattern for another.  In the Succession of the Pendragons successive heroes win and wield the Hallows in order to be king; in the hereditary guardianship of the Hallows, specifically the Grail, this royal role becomes a holy one.  This process reveals a deeper association with the roots of kingship, which is holy as well as royal: a combination which is not lost even today in Britain's constitutional monarchy, which, while relegating its political right of government to Parliament, retains the sacral bond of monarch with the land."

Here is what P. M. Matarasso says in a footnote to her translation of the medieval "Queste del Saint Graal":

"The Celtic sources would seem to have had originally but one Grail Keeper, the god-king who was wounded with his own sacred weapon, lance or sword.  As time went by this figure split into two or three who occasionally converge again.  In the "Quest" the Maimed King, called in one episode King Parlan, is the father of the Rich Fisher King.  The name Fisher King is itself something of a mystery.  Robert de Boron has one Bron catching fish for the table of the Grail and thus acquiring the title; at the same time he makes the connexion with the Icthus, the symbol of Christ.  In the "Estoire del Graal" the first Fisher King's name is Alain, but the explanation is substantially the same ...[skipping over a section on the symbolism of water] ... Perhaps it is wise to remember that symbols can work on many levels and be integrated into systems with no common origin."

In "The Real Camelot, Paganism and the Arthurian Romances," John Darrah identifies the Grail guardians and the Fisher Kings as representing a type of sacred kingship, tied to the fertility of the land, and the Grail seekers -- Percival, Galahad, etc., as descended from the same line, candidates for the role of Grail guardian themselves, supposing one proves himself worthy.

This, I think, is where your version of the story comes in, Guthrie.  The King is aging and impotent and the land suffers, it can't be healed until a new King succeeds him, but in order to do so the heir must first perform certain ritual acts and above all ask the ritual question ("What is the grail and whom does it serve?").  If he fails, due to not knowing or understanding his appointed role, the land remains barren for another cycle. 

Those of us who have seen the movie "Excalibur" may recall that in that version King Arthur himself takes the place of the Fisher King, growing prematurely aged, until he and the land are healed when Percival answers (rather than asks) the question and brings him the Grail. 

(Interestingly, in the early versions the question is never answered, nor does it need to be -- it only has to be asked.)

Basically, the Fisher King is a very complex and layered symbol, which has been added to and expanded and reinterpreted again and again over the centuries.  Modern interpretations may add to the confusion, but at the same time I think they contribute to the richness of the symbolism.


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## Gothmog (Jan 13, 2005)

In Stephen R. Lawhead's "Pendragon Cycle", the Fisher King was actually Merlin's maternal grandfather, if I am not mistaken.

I haven't read Merlin for ten years now, so don't quote me.  

Mr. Lawhead decidedly used Celtic myth to shape his novels; now to what extent he used his own licence to add flavour to the stories, I do not know.


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## TheBlackSword (Apr 16, 2005)

Yes, in lawhead's books the Fisher King is avallach, one of three kings on doomed Atlantis that were at war and sailed when it was sinking and eventually landed on Britain and he was called the fisher king because well, he fished alot and he did become a very devout follower of "Jesu" Jesus, and you guys mentioned that he had a wound well in his books he had the wound from the battle that took almost of of his family out if i remember correctly in the PENDRAGON CYCLE. Those are great books By the way hi everyone


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## littlemissattitude (Apr 16, 2005)

Kelpie said:
			
		

> Confusingly, the Arthurian legends refer to more than one person as the Fisher King, which may indicate the title itself is meant to indicate a sacred function, or a hereditary role in the Celtic mysteries, rather than a single individual


 
This is essentially how Tim Powers approaches his characterization of the Fisher King in "Last Call" and "Earthquake Weather"; it is a role rather than a particular person.  I also think that it is interesting that the information you shared (thanks, by the way) makes a connection between the Fisher King and Christ.  In the original meaning of "messiah" - "mashiah" in Hebrew - which the Greeks translated as "christos" (and where we get the word Christ), it does not refer to a specific person, but to anyone who has been anointed - kings and priests, essentially, which are positions or offices and not one particular person.  Later on, the word came to specifically refer to kings of the Davidic line (the line Christ is said to have come from).  Not did much later did the word messiah, or the Christ, come to refer to one specific person.  (This information comes from an interesting book, "An Introduction to the Bible: A Journey into Three Worlds" by Christian E. Hauer and William A. Young, that was the text for a class in which I was student aide to the professor when I was at university.)  So there are some comparisons there, maybe.


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## Rane Longfox (Apr 17, 2005)

Aye, Lawhead has by far the most interesting, if far fetched, version of the Fisher King


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