# Doom in 2012?



## Granfalloon

From the article: (see the link at the bottom)

"For the ancient Maya, it was a huge celebration to make it to the end of a whole cycle," says Sandra Noble, executive director of the Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies in Crystal River, Fla. To render Dec. 21, 2012, as a doomsday or moment of cosmic shifting, she says, is "a complete fabrication and a chance for a lot of people to cash in."
Part of the 2012 mystique stems from the stars. On the winter solstice in 2012, the sun will be aligned with the center of the Milky Way for the first time in about 26,000 years. This means that "whatever energy typically streams to Earth from the center of the Milky Way will indeed be disrupted on 12/21/12 at 11:11 p.m. Universal Time," Joseph writes.
But scholars doubt the ancient Maya extrapolated great meaning from anticipating the alignment — if they were even aware of what the configuration would be. 
Astronomers generally agree that "it would be impossible the Maya themselves would have known that," says Susan Milbrath, a Maya archaeoastronomer and a curator at the Florida Museum of Natural History. What's more, she says, "we have no record or knowledge that they would think the world would come to an end at that point."
University of Florida anthropologist Susan Gillespie says the 2012 phenomenon comes "from media and from other people making use of the Maya past to fulfill agendas that are really their own."

Does Maya calendar predict 2012 apocalypse? - USATODAY.com


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## mosaix

_the sun will be aligned with the center of the Milky Way_

What does that mean?


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## Nik

D'you think this 'Weird Alignment' may briefly interrupt the hypothetical 'S-Rays' that cause so much of human population to cling to unverifiable fantasies ??


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## chrispenycate

Mosaic said:
			
		

> the sun will be aligned with the center of the Milky Way
> 
> What does that mean?



Syzygy (I've been dying to use that word correctly for ages)

Anything coming out of the centre of the galaxy which can be effected by gravity, like cosmic rays, will be focussed by the sun's gravitational field to a point somewhere. I have no idea where, but if the Earth happens to be in it, there might be repercussions. Or not, but  it's fun trying to think up some kind of damage they _might_ do, like increasing free neutrons in an atomic reactor, causing it to overheat.


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## ktabic

Pah, I wish. They will just move onto to 2016, 2020, 2040 or some other date.


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## mosaix

chrispenycate said:


> Syzygy (I've been dying to use that word correctly for ages)
> 
> Anything coming out of the centre of the galaxy which can be effected by gravity, like cosmic rays, will be focussed by the sun's gravitational field to a point somewhere. I have no idea where, but if the Earth happens to be in it, there might be repercussions. Or not, but  it's fun trying to think up some kind of damage they _might_ do, like increasing free neutrons in an atomic reactor, causing it to overheat.



But Chris, if you draw a line from the centre of the galaxy through the Sun then the Sun is always aligned with the centre on the galaxy _along that line_. And as the Earth travels around the Sun then it must cross that line twice a year. So what's new?

Or am I missing something here?


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## chrispenycate

mosaix said:


> But Chris, if you draw a line from the centre of the galaxy through the Sun then the Sun is always aligned with the centre on the galaxy _along that line_. And as the Earth travels around the Sun then it must cross that line twice a year. So what's new?
> 
> Or am I missing something here?



Ecliptic. The solar system is not perfectly aligned with the galactic plane, so the moment when the earth goes though the axis it is generally above or below the actual line. Only ever so often (well, quite rarely, according to the article) does everything fall just right.

I still can't think what could be focussed in to make a decent catastrophe.


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## Interference

Nik said:


> ... 'S-Rays' that cause so much of human population to cling to unverifiable fantasies ??



Any reference for this, Nik?


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## ktabic

chrispenycate said:


> I still can't think what could be focussed in to make a decent catastrophe.



I seem to remember reading about a rough correlation between extinction events and our position comapred to the galatic plane. But it's not as we pass through it, they happen on one side of the plane, not the other. But it was only roughly.


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## Nik

'Hypothetical', Interference, 'Hypothetical'...
;-))


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## Ursa major

Nik said:


> D'you think this 'Weird Alignment' may briefly interrupt the hypothetical 'S-Rays' that cause so much of human population to cling to unverifiable fantasies ??


 

Are they like the B-rays that make people sound as stupid as donkeys?


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## Interference

I think the worst are the F-Rays, that make your cuffs wear out.

Though, didn't Polonius fall foul of some A-Rays?


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## Ursa major

ktabic said:


> I seem to remember reading about a rough correlation between extinction events and our position comapred to the galatic plane. But it's not as we pass through it, they happen on one side of the plane, not the other. But it was only roughly.


 
So are we heading for 26000 years of doom? 



(Re rays: Wasn't there a lot of problems in the East End with the K-rays? And A-rays also made an appearance in _The Matrix_, didn't they?)


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## ktabic

Ursa major said:


> So are we heading for 26000 years of doom?


No, this was more 64 million years. Well, the whole cycle anyway.

There seems to be problems with the sky tonight, looks like there are lots of g-rays up there.


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## Cayal

Another one? I've lived through so many ends of earth.


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## Pyan

I would have thought it was more believable if it had prophesied the end of the world in 1697, along with the end of the Mayan nation...


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## Nik

Um, like Mr SpoonBender learning about Jacko's untimely death via phone-call...

I'm reminded of wondrous Poul Anderson Classic SciFi novelette 'No Truce With Kings' where, in a post-apocalyptic world, human-taming Vulcan-alikes pass themselves off as a religious sect with 'mental powers'. Scheme comes apart at bayonet-point when one senior sect member is heard to order, 'Inform the Adepts'...


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## PTeppic

Granfalloon said:


> University of Florida anthropologist Susan Gillespie says the 2012 phenomenon comes "from media and from other people making use of the Maya past to fulfill agendas that are really their own."



Roland Emmerich's own agenda is the movie business, i.e. his next effects-laden catastrophe-fest, the aptly and pointedly titled "2012"


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## Xelebes

I'm just wondering if there will be excess of radiation in 2012 and we will become T-Ray-fied.


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## Granfalloon

This is roughly the kind of reaction I was expecting - or should I say - hoping for. I just threw it out there as kind of a quip, a jest, a buffoonery, a monkeyshine... you know, a gag. Obviously the Mayans figured if they lasted that long, they could simply extend the calendar. 

As far as the alignment with the center of the galaxy thing, I wasn't aware of that before either. I know for example that HIJKLMNO - rays will not reach us because of the dense water clouds out in space. (He stated with tongue gouged firmly into one cheek).


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## Granfalloon

Xelebes said:


> I'm just wondering if there will be excess of radiation in 2012 and we will become T-Ray-fied.



Or perhaps the seas will turn to boiling vegetable oil, bubble over the land and we'll be French-Ray-Fried.  Okay, I admit - that was pretty bad.


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## skeptical

Remarkably, a lot of people take this 2012 thing really seriously.   They fully expect it to be the end of the world.   Little do they know that the doom is upon us already, and we aint gonna make it past the end of the week!!!

_PS : note that I did not specify *which *week._


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## Granfalloon

> Originally Posted by Nik
> ... 'S-Rays' that cause so much of human population to cling to unverifiable fantasies ??





Interference said:


> Any reference for this, Nik?



I think he meant 'BS-rays'.


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## Drachir

Alright, I give up.  What is so unusual about a meteorite on Mars?  Surely there must have been thousands if not millions of hits.


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## mosaix

Drachir said:


> Alright, I give up.  What is so unusual about a meteorite on Mars?  Surely there must have been thousands if not millions of hits.



If you're talking about the one discovered by the Mars rover, it's not that it is unusual for there to be one, but because it's an iron meteorite it helps NASA investigate water presence on Mars.


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## mosaix

More on the meteorite on Mars...

Apparently it's too big to have survived the trip to the surface with *the current Martian atmosphere.*

If they can discover the age of the meteorite it will give an indication of the makeup of the atmosphere at the time that it landed.


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## Harpo

Any chance of an update on this topic?


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## Perpetual Man

A nice time to bump the thread Harpo as I saw this a couple of days ago...

The End of the World? Probably not.


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## Alex The G and T

... And i about bust a gut at the local newscast this evening...

Longtime Chief of the Arcata City Fire Department announced his intention to retire.

He's a familiar face, over the years, explaining the catastrophe of the day on the evening news.  A 60-something, Jar-head looking guy with shaven head, a goatee and a twinkle in his eye, and he dead-panned this beautifully:

"I have given the City of Arcata official notice that I shall retire effective December 11, 2012.  I don't really believe in this Mayan Calendar nonsense; but have decided that I would rather watch the end of the world as a retired person."


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## INed

He-he

we can be more sure in the End if nuclear buttons will be pushed. Oh, Lord Somebody predicted that in 2012....


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## RJM Corbet

This whole thing has become very removed from Graham Hancock's research in 'Fingerprints of the Gods' in which he actually originated the whole concept of 'crustal shift'.

The time may be out a bit. Isaac Newton pinned it at around 2060.

Yeah, Newton was a nut, I know ...


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## Gordian Knot

The solar system's position within the Milky Way is not fiction. It sorta bobs above the disc of the galaxy, though the galactic plain, and then below. Rinse and repeat.

It is when the solar system bobs above the galactic plain that the earth is bombarded with heavy radiation. Time frame between events is 62 million years. Don't know when the last upwards shift happened, but I doubt it is in any relevant to the end of this year.


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## Starbeast

I don't believe it will be the end of everything soon.​ 
But I do believe there will be a new beginning with great natural changes and spiritual awakenings, that will happen in the near future which will effect everyone.​


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## Gordian Knot

Interesting Starbeast. How do you perceive this spiritual awakening occuring? What will be the causative factors?


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## mosaix

And what do you mean by 'the near future'?


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## Alex The G and T

The Age of Aquarius?  };-}


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## Gordian Knot

Been there. Done that. LOL.


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## Shane Enochs

Wouldn't the Mayan thing already have happened when you take leap years into account?


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## Venusian Broon

Shane Enochs said:


> Wouldn't the Mayan thing already have happened when you take leap years into account?


 
I believe, Sir Eric Thompson who dug at Mayan sites in the 1930-40s provided the evidence to fix the calender so that it is now very probable that the present long count ends on 23 December 2012. (The other possible correlation meant that the long count ended 260 years ago...)

i.e. I think the archelogists were by this stage in history well aware of the leap years when calculating the date


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## RJM Corbet

Venusian Broon said:


> ... i.e. I think the archelogists were by this stage in history well aware of the leap years when calculating the date


 
That's the whole thing. The Maya were stone age, wheel-less but they had this amazingly accurate calendar system, still not surpassed today, which Graham Hancock hypothesises they inherited, not from aliens, but from a previous more advanced civilization that was destroyed by crustal shift ...


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## Venusian Broon

RJM Corbet said:


> That's the whole thing. The Maya were stone age, wheel-less but they had this amazingly accurate calendar system, still not surpassed today, which Graham Hancock hypothesises they inherited, not from aliens, but from a previous more advanced civilization that was destroyed by crustal shift ...


 
What do you mean by amazingly accurate? 

Like most civilisations that have endured long enough to start taking measurements of the sun, stars and planets they knew a lot about the cycles of heaven. They had a 'vague year' of 365 days that represented the solar year but knew that this wasn't right and it was a little less - however I guess that getting the solar year right was of much less importance to them, because as long as you have water you can grow crops. Contrast this with further north, above the tropics, where a prime consideration of a solar cycle is to do with crop growing. 

It's clear that the Sumerians knew about the year and did a damn fine calculation of it too, as an example. 

Instead they meshed a 260 day cycle with the 360 cycle, and then used various multiples on the 360 to derive the full great cycle: 

1 winal = 20 days
18 winals = 360 days or 1 tun
20 tuns = 7,200 days or 1 k'atun
20 k'atuns = 144,000 days or 1 bak'tun
13 bak'tun = The Great cycle or about 5,127 years. 

From this perspective it's just a way of measuring a date from a fixed point before - just like our use of 2012 in terms of thousands, hundreds, tens and ones (of years) to indicate how far we are away from a big event in our past. (Who they got it from, as the Maya were clearly not about ~3114 BC is another question.)

Ok, just to whet your appetite and go off on a tangent , it is common for mesoamerican religions to use these great cycles to tell of universal cycles of creation and destruction. Aztecs (or whatever we should call them now) believed we were in a great cycle that was to be destroyed by earthquakes. I believe that post-Conquest Maya sources tell that the Maya stated that the last creation prior to ours (pre-3114BC) was destroyed by a flood. Now I'm sure you are fully well aware that the flood myths of the Sumerians come from roughly that sort of time . 

Spooky? I personally think probably not: it was a world coming out of a post-ice age phase - memories of great floods I think would have been deep and common...

As for the Maya being wheeless as a indication of how 'primitive' they were, not only have new world toys been found with wheels (they clearly understood how they worked), but I'd also like to see you drive a chariot, or ox cart (not that they had those animals, so you'd have to drag them yourself) through a jungle . I'd say they were really quite smart from the start!


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## Harpo

the important word to remember in all of this is *calendar* - that's all the 'Mayan thing' is, just a calendar.  The world doesn't end every 31st December when our calendars end, does it?  Nope - not even Ye Olde Millenium Bug did anyone in at the end of the last century.
Scaremongers and pranksters had a field day then, and in 1984, and they're doing so this year too.  After this it'll be that asteroid 'collision' in 2036 or whenever it's supposedly happening.

But for those gullible blinkered types who believe it, there's exactly six months to go.
Book your party tickets now.....


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## Gordian Knot

Oh be that way, Harpo. Spoil all their fun. Seriously though I find it discouraging that as a species, humans mostly turn away from science, but embrace the pseudo-sciences. Hucksters have been making a ton of money off of this for centuries; seems like modern times more than ever.

Back then at least people had an excuse. They didn't know any better and had no way of knowing any better. What is the excuse for people today?????


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## Shane Enochs

Gordian Knot said:


> Oh be that way, Harpo. Spoil all their fun. Seriously though I find it discouraging that as a species, humans mostly turn away from science, but embrace the pseudo-sciences. Hucksters have been making a ton of money off of this for centuries; seems like modern times more than ever.
> 
> Back then at least people had an excuse. They didn't know any better and had no way of knowing any better. *What is the excuse for people today*?????



Imagination?


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## Harpo

I'm quite looking forward to the Mass Disappointment on the morning of December 22nd.  All those people suddenly realising they actually _do _have to buy Christmas presents, and especially the superstitious ones who have to look forward to enjoying an entire _year _of The Number Thirteen!!!


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## Venusian Broon

Harpo said:


> I'm quite looking forward to the Mass Disappointment on the morning of December 22nd. All those people suddenly realising they actually _do _have to buy Christmas presents, and especially the superstitious ones who have to look forward to enjoying an entire _year _of The Number Thirteen!!!


 
I doubt there will be much dissappointment - as there are no original practitioners of mesoamerican religion left really (and the Maya themselves don't think the world will end) - the date has been hi-jacked by plenty of other completely different and disparate groups, most of which if I understand them correctly, are claiming that the end will be 'spiritual' in nature. Or as I'll probably put it on the day "well, nothing has happened then".

That's different from the Christian Evangelical movements who do repeatedly put forward dates for the _real_ end of the world. I know Harold Camping has retired from prediction duty, but one of his disciples - Brother Mike - has already notched up 4 predictions for the total physical destruction of the world (October & December 2011, March & May 2012). Seemingly he has stated that "It doesn't matter how many hypothese we come up with, as each one leads us closer and closer to the truth" ?!? (_Or perhaps if I keep guessing, maybe just maybe, something really big will happen...) _

I personally think he might be trying for World Record for number of failed end-time prophicies, which currently stands at 13.


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## Harpo

13, eh?  That's what I said earlier!


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## Gordian Knot

13???? Christians have been predicting Armageddon practically since Christ died. This has been going on for 2,000 years and they haven't gotten it right yet!


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## Vertigo

I've never quite understoon why it seems to be accepted that we can't predict the future but hey, our ancient ancestors were real pros at it don't you know.

And I'm afraid I simply don't go for any of the dissappeared *advanced *ancient civilisations, for which there is absolutely no fossil or any other acheological record (other than occasional unusual (and usually underwater) rock formations that are claimed as such). It's not as if there is even a significant gap in our fossil record that could allow for such. Yes there are gaps but only so far back that they are really gaps in our primate history not our 'sapiens' history.


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## Ursa major

It also seems a shame that ancients who could forecast thousands of years in the future didn't seem... well... forewarned about the events that destroyed their great civilisation.

And it's a shame that they didn't manage to build cities above what became today's sea level. Okay, where the continental shelf is wide, and the population low, why would they? (Well apart from human nature, which has driven humans to just about everywhere even when there were very few of them.) But not everywhere has a wide continental shelf. Surely these folk can't have been so enamoured of the sea that they never built anything significant a few dozen miles inland?

Because they can't have done, if nothing of theirs has ever been excavated. We can find animals and plants from hundreds of millions years ago after goodness knows what geological changes and sea level rises. And those cities-built-on-cities-built-on-cities where the deeper you go, the less advanced the finds are.  But this ancient civilisation? Not a hint of a sign. One could be forgiven for believing that it never existed....


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## MeldedByThePlague

I do recall an interesting analysis of how long the traces of our own civilisation would hang around if all of humanity just disappeared overnight. Oddly enough a lot of it would probably not last as long as older stone buildings- a typical skyscraper isn't intended to last thousands of years without maintainence and isn't designed to do so.

That said, complete disappearance without a trace would also be extremely unlikely- a civilisation like ours would leave traces for millions of years.


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## Ursa major

I was listening to Radio Four's so-so programme, _The Museum of Curiosity_, and one of the contributors (not Buzz Aldrin, who was a guest and the reason why I had continued listening) said that the (a) Mayan creation myth had it that humans were made from dough.

Does this mean that, if the forecast doom does happen in 2012, we're all toast...?





​


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## billhafan

Ursa major said:


> I was listening to Radio Four's so-so programme, _The Museum of Curiosity_, and one of the contributors (not Buzz Aldrin, who was a guest and the reason why I had continued listening) said that the (a) Mayan creation myth had it that humans were made from dough.
> 
> Does this mean that, if the forecast doom does happen in 2012, we're all toast...?


maybe, if we're not Brown-Bread!


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## Dave

No, that's just crackers!


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## Huttman

Gordian Knot said:


> 13???? Christians have been predicting Armageddon practically since Christ died. This has been going on for 2,000 years and they haven't gotten it right yet!



  There is not much mainstream Christians have gotten right in 2000 years.
I guess it's in human nature to try and figure things out, even when we're told it's fruitless to do so. One thing is fairly certain, unless radical changes are made in behaviors of the human race, some type of cataclysm that IS in our power to avoid WILL happen. We are spoiling this planet for future generations. I don't know when, but our consumption and waste with population increases will spell a global meltdown for sure. Make (or let) the power grid go down for the East or West coast for very long and looting will become uncontrollable. That will send financial markets crashing....and then....or...one big earthquake or super volcano?
Maybe it's unavoidable, but one thing I believe (it's a part of my faith, too), is that there WILL be survivors of the human race after what ever happens, happens. Even looking at it from a numbers point of view, someones gotta make it!


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## Harpo

Huttman said:


> Maybe it's unavoidable, but one thing I believe (it's a part of my faith, too), is that there WILL be survivors of the human race after what ever happens, happens. Even looking at it from a numbers point of view, someones gotta make it!



Imagine a huge discussion on a similar topic, but with dinosaurs instead of us lot, talking 65 million years ago.  They would've said what you say.

"looking at it from a numbers point of view, someones gotta make it!"

Nope?


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## planetocean

*I just love how everyone is talking about THE END OF THE WORLD, it makes me laugh. Well we already know the world is not ending, cause really know one really knows when the world is going to end. What ever happens we will just have to wait and see what are in the stars.*


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## Galacticdefender

I am going to stand in my field with my towel and my thumb raised to the sky on December 21st, just in case


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## Abernovo

Watch out for Vogon poets, then.

But, whatever happens, DON'T PANIC!


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## Huttman

planetocean said:


> *I just love how everyone is talking about THE END OF THE WORLD, it makes me laugh. Well we already know the world is not ending, cause really know one really knows when the world is going to end. What ever happens we will just have to wait and see what are in the stars.*



Huh? Oh, right. We know that already- it averages out to be about 73% hydrgen, 23% helium and 2% other basic elements. Maybe a little magic, too?

And also I have it on the highest authority the world will never end


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## Gordian Knot

Oh the Earth will most definitely end! It is not debatable. There will be an end. Earth will be fried to a crisp as the sun expands into a red giant in its final millennia. The good news is that we have a few billion years left.......


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## chrispenycate

Yes, but "world", being conceptually older than the idea of living on a planet, is comfortingly less precise. For a fantasy author it can be an entire universe (or several, I suppose), for a mundane novel someone's world can come to an end at the dissolution of a romance. Actual planet destruction is hard work (they're built to last); elimination of all living organisms, while still a difficult problem, much less complicated.

And the mere extinction of homo sapiens, which I think would satisfy most ancient cultures as an end to the world, is relatively simple.

On the other hand, if mankind survived long enough for the sun's running out of hydrogen to become a problem (which I consider improbable, and very few SF authors have dared to write that far into the future) it would probably be capable of moving into another neighbourhood, newer construction, so the mere loss of a planet wouldn't be the end of the world…


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## Huttman

There is always the possibility of re-fueling the sun. After all it is made up of the most abundant elements in the galaxy. Another five billion years and I think we should have that technology/know-how down, wouldn't you agree? Just 100 years ago people could not fathom walking on  the moon, they certainly thought about it, but 5 billion years? I think nothing is impossible if we can imagine it.


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## Gordian Knot

Although the time left for the sun is around 5 billion years, that has nothing to do with the habitability of the Earth. It is estimated, from what I have read, that in just over 1 billion years the sun will warm up about 10%, which will be enough to fry the earth into a barren rock. The Earth will be looooonnnnng dead by the time the sun becomes a red giant and expands to our planet's orbit.

Not that it will be a problem for our descendants as I expect humans will be extinct well before that 1 billion years will be up. We have been prominent on this planet for what, 3 million years? Our track record thus far has not been encouraging and I don't foresee any significant change in the human attitude any time soon. Quite honestly I would be stunned if we were still around in 100,000 years!


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## Huttman

Gordian Knot said:


> Our track record thus far has not been encouraging and I don't foresee any significant change in the human attitude any time soon. Quite honestly I would be stunned if we were still around in 100,000 years!



Speak for yourself, I plan to live forever.
The thing about the human attitude is, it's not a collective consciousness. While the powers that be may seem like a permanent fixture, they are not. Not everybody shares in the self destructive attitude corporations, religions and governments have. There are definitely negative entities standing in the way of good changes this world needs...and they will be dealt with successfully.


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## Ursa major

Huttman said:


> Just 100 years ago people could not fathom walking on  the moon...


...because there wasn't, and isn't, _any_ liquid surface water, let alone any six foot deep collection of it....


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## Huttman

Gordian Knot said:


> Although the time left for the sun is around 5 billion years, that has nothing to do with the habitability of the Earth. It is estimated, from what I have read, that in just over 1 billion years the sun will warm up about 10%, which will be enough to fry the earth into a barren rock.



Again, a BILLION years is a long time. A million years with technology advancing the way it is is more than enough time to learn how to manipulate a minor star such as our Sol. I fear even in science a doom and gloom scenario always comes to the forefront. When I was young, science and cosmic exploration were about possibilities and hope. Now I feel it's gone the way of despair. I watched the show on the history channel called The Universe, and even though it was mostly enjoyable, practically EVERY episode had a cataclysmic wrap up. That is not the way it used to be nor do I think it should. Lol, a monte python tune just popped in my head, do you know which one I'm thinking of? 

Anyways, perhaps science could afford a little more optimism, because after all even scientists can be partial and stubborn. Just look at Albert Einstein.


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## Huttman

Ursa major said:


> ...because there wasn't, and isn't, _any_ liquid surface water, let alone any six foot deep collection of it....



And since it's not made of cheese we haven't been back!


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## Galacticdefender

Nah, we shall return! NASA has been toying with the idea of a multinational effort to build an orbital moon space station, once Orion is up and running.


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## Huttman

And I'm sure a moon base with living structures and a launching pad to deep space or a new telescope on the dark side. Or how about moon buggy races? All sounds like fun. I really hope they have spaceships like this one. It's so practical and cool looking.


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## Metryq

Huttman said:


> And I'm sure a moon base with living structures and a launching pad to deep space or a new telescope on the dark side.



Far side. The Moon has no "dark side," except the usual day-night variations like on Earth. Far side never faces _Earth_.


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## Ursa major

...which, I would have thought, makes it a far better place to locate a telescope (assuming one would want to put one on the moon in the first place).


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## Huttman

Metryq said:


> Far side. The Moon has no "dark side," except the usual day-night variations like on Earth. Far side never faces _Earth_.



_There is no dark side of the moon. As a matter of fact, it's all dark_.

Thank you, I should have been more specific. When the far side of the moon is in shadow, it would be great for telescopic stargazing. And it would be easier to work on.


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## Metryq

Huttman said:


> _There is no dark side of the moon. As a matter of fact, it's all dark_.



You're right—with an albedo like that of worn asphalt, those lunar tennis courts are in dire need of repainting and new nets. That's why Shepard took a golf club to the Moon instead of a tennis racket. 



> When the far side of the moon is in shadow, it would be great for telescopic stargazing.



Actually, the staticky regolith and the "lunar wind" would make an optical telescope a constant pain in the tush. Deep space would be better for optical telescopes. Far side might be a decent place to put a radio telescope, however, in order to shade it from the radio noise of Earth. But why bother? Racing towards us now at the speed of light, with all of Earth like a deer in the headlights, is an alien radio message stating, "The Mayans were right."


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## Harpo

The Mayans were right?  It's a calendar!  I wonder how many gullible people will give away all their possessions a few days before Christmas.

Personally, I'm playing a gig on the night of the 20th, in which I shall take the mickey splendidly.


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## Metryq

Harpo said:


> The Mayans were right?  It's a calendar!



I know. Maybe there is a missing petroglyph from the corner that said, "Continued on next slate," or "cycle back to square one." Yet the world is full of people who believe in Big Foot, the Loch Ness monster, the Bermuda Triangle and that the Eldridge teleported through time and space.


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## The Ace

Metryq said:


> I know. Maybe there is a missing petroglyph from the corner that said, "Continued on next slate," or "cycle back to square one." Yet the world is full of people who believe in Big Foot, the Loch Ness monster, the Bermuda Triangle and that the Eldridge teleported through time and space.



Please don't lump Nessie in with those myths.


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## RJM Corbet

Harpo said:


> The Mayans were right?  It's a calendar!  I wonder how many gullible people will give away all their possessions a few days before Christmas.
> 
> Personally, I'm playing a gig on the night of the 20th, in which I shall take the mickey splendidly.


 
Anything from 'Dark Side of the Moon'?


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## Huttman

Glad someone else here appreciates the Floyd. I love Far side of the Moon. That album is a classic.


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## Metryq

Huttman said:


> Glad someone else here appreciates the Floyd. I love Far side of the Moon. That album is a classic.



In the case of the Pink Floyd album, the title actually is THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON. There is a "dark" side of the Moon—it just changes constantly. 

The term is wrong, however, when one really means "far side," as in the opening scene to the SPACE: 1999 pilot, "Breakaway." The writers should have known better, but the show was never recognized for its scientific accuracy. (No apology to those who mistakenly believe the Eagle is the "most realistic" sci-fi spaceship just because it has visible RCS thrusters.)


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## J Riff

And of course 'Dark Side of the Moon' was a Roger Miller song, long before Pink and the Floyds used it.


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## Starbeast

And Pink Floyd had help from Alan Parson's Project which made "Dark Side of the Moon" great, let us never forget that.

*Back to the subject of, DOOM in 2012*

The Mayans and a few of the Native American Indian tribes believe the that the world will not end (around that time frame - 2012), but the people from the sky will return as they had promised.


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## Harpo

(copying this "long count" excerpt from the wiki page on the Maya calendar)

Since Calendar Round dates repeat every 18,980 days, approximately 52 solar years, the cycle repeats roughly once each lifetime, so a more refined method of dating was needed if history was to be recorded accurately. To specify dates over periods longer than 52 years, Mesoamericans used the Long Count calendar.
 The Maya name for a day was _k'in_. Twenty of these k'ins are known as a _winal_ or _uinal_. Eighteen winals make one _tun_. Twenty tuns are known as a _k'atun_. Twenty k'atuns make a _b'ak'tun_.
 The Long Count calendar identifies a date by counting the number of days from the Mayan creation date 4 Ahaw, 8 Kumk'u (August 11, 3114 BC in the proleptic Gregorian calendar or September 6 in the Julian calendar). But instead of using a base-10 (decimal) scheme like Western numbering, the Long Count days were tallied in a modified base-20 scheme. Thus 0.0.0.1.5 is equal to 25, and 0.0.0.2.0 is equal to 40. As the winal unit resets after only counting to 18, the Long Count consistently uses base-20 only if the tun is considered the primary unit of measurement, not the k'in; with the k'in and winal units being the number of days in the tun. The Long Count 0.0.1.0.0 represents 360 days, rather than the 400 in a purely base-20 (vigesimal) count.
 There are also four rarely used higher-order cycles: piktun, kalabtun, k'inchiltun, and alautun.
 Since the Long Count dates are unambiguous, the Long Count was particularly well suited to use on monuments. The monumental inscriptions would not only include the 5 digits of the Long Count, but would also include the two tzolk'in characters followed by the two haab' characters.
 Misinterpretation of the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar is the basis for a popular belief that a cataclysm will take place on December 21, 2012. December 21, 2012 is simply the day that the calendar will go to the next b'ak'tun, at Long Count 13.0.0.0.0. The date on which the calendar will go to the next piktun (a complete series of 20 b'ak'tuns), at Long Count 1.0.0.0.0.0, will be on October 13, 4772.
 Sandra Noble, executive director of the Mesoamerican research organization _*Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc.*_ (*FAMSI*), notes that "for the ancient Maya, it was a huge celebration to make it to the end of a whole cycle". She considers the portrayal of December 2012 as a doomsday or cosmic-shift event to be "a complete fabrication and a chance for a lot of people to cash in."[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_calendar#cite_note-23


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## RJM Corbet

I asked a priest, and he said: "I don't know."

I still think the interesting thing is how the stone-age Maya developed such precise astronomy, or how the Dogon tribe, for instance, knew precise facts about Sirius. It's stuff like that makes the Mayan calendar impressive.


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## Huttman

What was the question? About the calander?


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## Huttman

Metryq said:


> In the case of the Pink Floyd album, the title actually is THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON. There is a "dark" side of the Moon—it just changes constantly.



Thank you on behalf of all THE flat moon believers still out there. The lunatic must've still been in my head.


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## Metryq

Huttman said:


> Thank you on behalf of all THE flat moon believers still out there.



There's a Flat Moon Society now?


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## Huttman

Can't have a flat Earth but a round moon, can we? Plus, since it never seems to rotate....hmmm, I wonder if someone in history who _really did_ believe we live on a pancake used the moon, always facing one direction, as 'proof' of the flat Earth theory. I wonder if some of those same people had human sacrifices like the Mayans did (to somewhat bring this back 'round).


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## Gordian Knot

Why are you speaking in the past tense Hutt? Plenty of flat earthers out there right now. Along with the Earth is 6,000 years old crowd. And, of course, the truly out there nutjobs - scientists who believe in Quantum Theory!


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## Huttman

If there were a 'like' button here, I would hit it for that one, GK. How about I give you a  instead?


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## Harpo

Huttman said:


> What was the question? About the calander?


 
42? 

(oh, message too short?  fixed!)


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## Huttman

Harpo said:


> 42?
> 
> (oh, message too short?  fixed!)


 

Why yes, it is. */""\*


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## Gordian Knot

Huttman said:


> If there were a 'like' button here, I would hit it for that one, GK. How about I give you a  instead?



Most welcome! By the way, been meaning to ask for the longest time. You aren't, by any chance related to Jabba are you?????


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## Moonbat

Are we still here?

anyone what time the world will end today?


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## nixie

11am Greenwich Meantime, now should I go Christmas shopping before after the world ends. Oh that could have been a name for our new tearoom.


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## Abernovo

Supposedly at 1112 UT, Moonbat.

I'll still be around this afternoon and tomorrow. I'll put £50 on that. 'Course, if I'm wrong, you'll have a de'il of a time collecting it!


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## Dave

Moonbat said:


> Are we still here?
> 
> anyone what time the world will end today?



No one has posted today from Australia. Maybe it has already begun. 



RJM Corbet said:


> I still think the interesting thing is how the stone-age Maya developed such precise astronomy, or how the Dogon tribe, for instance, knew precise facts about Sirius.


Really? They didn't have TV you realise? Nor, lights except from a fire. Have you been camping? You sit on your behind looking up and the only interesting thing is the night sky. It isn't that odd really. The Arabs and the Chinese also had astronomy way ahead of western cultures. Light pollution today means that we are cut off from the experiences of our ancestors.


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## gully_foyle

Dave said:


> No one has posted today from Australia. Maybe it has already begun.


No, we're still here. I think we've got a couple of hours to go till the  big old heave ho. So, I'm a bit of a noob with this Mayan apocalypse thing. Is this going to be a  winking out of existence sort of cataclysmic event, or lots of things  blowing up and tsunamis and zombies and bad stuff to deal with, or  something in between? Basically do I need to kiss everyone goodbye,  stock up or just grab my towel?


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## Warren_Paul

Oh noes, we're all still here....  see you all tomorrow when the next cycle of the Mayan Calendar begins.


<--- From NZ. If anyone was going to go first, it would be us.


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## RJM Corbet

Dave said:


> ... Really? They didn't have TV you realise? Nor, lights except from a fire. Have you been camping? You sit on your behind looking up and the only interesting thing is the night sky. It isn't that odd really. The Arabs and the Chinese also had astronomy way ahead of western cultures. Light pollution today means that we are cut off from the experiences of our ancestors.


 
And that's why it took Europe until the 16th Century to realize the earth went round the sun ...


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## Moonbat

> I'm a bit of a noob with this Mayan apocalypse thing. Is this going to be a  winking out of existence sort of cataclysmic event,


 
I'm hoping that if it does happen it is some kind of asteroid but that it will strike south American, that way I'll probably have time to open my Christmas presents early before the Nuclear winter ensues.


We've made it past 11:12 GMT (I think) so looks like someone forgot to carry the 6.


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## Gordian Knot

You silly people assume the world will begin to end at the international date line??? Fools! It will end where it began, in the Yucatan Peninsula home of the Maya. Which equates, I believe, to U.S. Central Time. You are hours away from oblivion!


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## alchemist




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## DarkYami

Galactus? If thats the case clearly the Mayans knew how hard Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 is to beat.


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## Vertigo

This is the day that the next Mayan b'ak'tun begins (actually I believe it has begun already - I believe it actually began at the beginning of the day, not the end). The Mayans groups b'ak'tuns (the Mayan Long Count calendar) into piktuns with 20 b'ak'tuns in one piktun. The current piktun ends 13th October 4772, so I guess you've enough time to unwrap those presents before it all blows up! Here's the complete table of the different Mayan calendar counts (If I can get it to format right):

*Table of Long Count units*
Long Count.....Long Count..........Days........Approximate
.....unit...........period.............................Solar Years
1 K'in........................................1
1 Winal.........20 K'in...................20 
1 Tun...........18 Winal................360..................1
1 K'atun........20 Tun................7,200................20
1 B'ak'tun......20 K'atun...........144,000.............394
1 Piktun........20 B'ak'tun........2,880,000..........7,885
1 Kalabtun.....20 Piktun.........57,600,000........157,704
1 K'inchiltun...20 Kalabtun....1,152,000,000.....3,154,071
1 Alautun......20 K'inchiltun..23,040,000,000...63,081,429

So I guess that suggests they were figuring on us being around for at least another 63 million odd years!


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## DarkYami

Vertigo said:


> This is the day that the next Mayan b'ak'tun begins (actually I believe it has begun already - I believe it actually began at the beginning of the day, not the end). The Mayans groups b'ak'tuns (the Mayan Long Count calendar) into piktuns with 20 b'ak'tuns in one piktun. The current piktun ends 13th October 4772, so I guess you've enough time to unwrap those presents before it all blows up! Here's the complete table of the different Mayan calendar counts (If I can get it to format right):
> 
> *Table of Long Count units*
> Long Count.....Long Count..........Days........Approximate
> .....unit...........period.............................Solar Years
> 1 K'in........................................1
> 1 Winal.........20 K'in...................20
> 1 Tun...........18 Winal................360..................1
> 1 K'atun........20 Tun................7,200................20
> 1 B'ak'tun......20 K'atun...........144,000.............394
> 1 Piktun........20 B'ak'tun........2,880,000..........7,885
> 1 Kalabtun.....20 Piktun.........57,600,000........157,704
> 1 K'inchiltun...20 Kalabtun....1,152,000,000.....3,154,071
> 1 Alautun......20 K'inchiltun..23,040,000,000...63,081,429
> 
> So I guess that suggests they were figuring on us being around for at least another 63 million odd years!



Sooooo basicly i can still get my christmas shopping done ^_^


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## Starbeast

Oh ****! Galactus is here! But, but he promised not to bother with Earth. (refering to Alchemist's picture)

I'm going out for doughnuts. Anyone coming with me?


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## DarkYami

Starbeast said:


> I'm going out for doughnuts. Anyone coming with me?



....what kind?


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## Huttman

Oh dear. Say, could one of you fine Earthlings help me. I seem to have forgotten how to post pictures larger than a thumbnail. Thank you. Oh, and can you tell me where I might find some Q-36 Explosive Space Modulators?


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## Starbeast

DarkYami said:


> ....what kind?


 
Hi DarkYami, nice to meet you. Well, I like little chocolate doughnuts. What's your favorite?



Huttman said:


> Oh dear. Say, could one of you fine Earthlings help me. I seem to have forgotten how to post pictures larger than a thumbnail. Thank you. Oh, and can you tell me where I might find some Q-36 Explosive Space Modulators?


 
Howdy Huttman. I use image codes (like this -


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## Abernovo

Huttman, if it's from a web address (I use an online photo album for some of mine), just copy the image url, press this icon (in the reply box) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, and paste the url in. Hope that helps and makes sense.  As to Space Modulators, I cant help. Sorry.

Well, it seems I'm still around this morning. I keep my £50. Just in case, though, I might stock up on chick peas. Doughnuts are okay, but I love falafels more.


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## Warren_Paul

Abernovo said:


> Well, it seems I'm still around this morning. I keep my £50. Just in case, though, I might stock up on chick peas. Doughnuts are okay, but I love falafels more.



That's easy for you to say. I owe 100 grand to a fat-ass loan shark which I spent on a stripper named Molly Mounds.





...


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## DarkYami

Starbeast said:


> Hi DarkYami, nice to meet you. Well, I like little chocolate doughnuts. What's your favorite?



Hey thanks for the welcome  , as for doughnuts i like pretty much anything chocolate wise plus with sprinkles. Of course if we are getting doughnuts we should get them from a Krispy Kreme 


As for images i know how to work them but saddly i just saw i'm two post away before i can use them (well one after this one).

Basicly its


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## RJM Corbet

aarunn said:


> that's very nice. there was no doom in 2012.


 
That expresses a lot in eight words 

Who can I sue?


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## Vertigo

Nah, you're wrong the doom happened, but at the last minute some benign aliens uploaded all our personalities into a vast simulation... or... hang on... is that what happened _last_ time?


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## Gordian Knot

No. No! NO! It happened just as predicted. We are now post Mayan apocalypse. It's just that no Mayans ever mentioned that post apocalypse would look just like pre apocalypse!


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## Vertigo

Hehe


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## Grimward

> that's very nice. there was no doom in 2012.


Incorrect.


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## DarkYami

Heres what happened:


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## Warren_Paul

Vegeta's my hero!


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## DarkYami

Warren_Paul said:


> Vegeta's my hero!



Vegeta and Future Trunks for me


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## Starbeast

Abernovo said:


> Doughnuts are okay, but I love falafels more.


 
If you're talking real food (and probably last meal - like the 2002 movie SIGNS), I'll have General Tso Chicken with those thin white noodles, and side order of very spicy jalapeno cheese poppers with a root beer.

I do like falafel pita sandwiches too.



DarkYami said:


> Hey thanks for the welcome  , as for doughnuts i like pretty much anything chocolate wise plus with sprinkles. Of course if we are getting doughnuts we should get them from a Krispy Kreme


 
I like those little "waxy" chocolate doughnuts in a bag, I can't remember the brand.



Grimward said:


> Incorrect.


 
Doctor DOOM, yeah baby!


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## RJM Corbet

I've got a hat just like that, _SB_ (yours, not his).

Mine's a bit more battered though. I bought it from Africa, but here in the UK I wear it against the rain, not the sun


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## Warren_Paul

I wear a Stetson now. Stetsons are cool....










Matt Smith is also my hero.


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