# Best Wizard?



## Joseph Swope

Could Gandolf take Zedd?  What about Allenanon or Dumbledore?  Even Raistlin in his later years.  Who is the best of the best?
Aside from ability to kill large amounts of people, what criteria should be used to judge?
Joe


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## daisybee

Belgarath the Sorcerer could have all that lot with one hand tied behind his back whilst having a pint and flirting with the barmaid.

I think, brains, wisdom, leadership, compassion,patience, humility, power and ruthlessness are all required in a best of scenario.


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## Pyan

So there's not much point in nominating Rincewind, then....


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## Ice fyre

Gandalf would whip em all into next week, with a jaunty smoke ring

Seriously though magic in these realities is like Science in SF novels one reality allows much more than the next. What is completly impossible in one is common in another makes it really hard to decide.

But I think I would think that if it came to a battle I think Gandalf had very hidden depths that no one ever saw only hinted at in the fight with the Balrog. The way it was portrayed in the films was like two gods fighting for supremacy. So at the end of the ramble I would say Gandalf.


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## Quokka

And how tight the definition of Wizard?

Haplo from The Death Gate Cycle would have to win the footrace.

Quick Ben's maybe not the toughest but would surely deserve an entry. Pug on the other hand may be someone to give even Gandalf a challange?

But I agree with Rincewind, no other wizzard has avoided so much with so little talent.


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## The Ace

Sorry, another vote for Belgarath. The only time he was stumped was when he was grabbed by Torak.  Gandalf's a bit too prissy for me.


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## the_faery_queen

merlin


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## Pyan

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned Pug yet...surely he must be up there with the best?


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## Talysia

daisybee said:


> Belgarath the Sorcerer could have all that lot with one hand tied behind his back whilst having a pint and flirting with the barmaid.
> 
> I think, brains, wisdom, leadership, compassion,patience, humility, power and ruthlessness are all required in a best of scenario.


 
I'll agree with that - especially the wisdom part.  I'd agree with the choice of Belgarath, too, although he probably wouldn't like the term 'wizard'.


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## Clansman

The Ace said:


> Gandalf's a bit too prissy for me.



Prissy?  The whole Balrog thing should put the boots to that opinion, never mind the fact that he spent fifteen hundred years tromping around Middle Earth, camping by roadsides, going through battles (Five Armies, his ride through Rohan, Minas Tirith and Pellenor Fields, Dagorlad), almost being burned alive in trees (Out of the Frying Pan...).

Actually, Belgarath is a bit of a Gandalf rip-off, if you ask me.  Certainly, since Gandalf, the old wise wizard is something of a fantasy cliche.  Belgarath, Zedd, Fizban, Allanon, etc. and so on.

C'mon Ace.  You must have a better reason than that.  Gandalf is certainly not prissy.  He smokes, drinks ale and mead.   Now Saruman, he was prissy.

And no one has mentioned Sethvir, Asandir or Davien of the Fellowship of Seven (Traithe, Luhaine, Kharadmon and Ciladis are the other members, but each of these is severely impaired to a certain degree).


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## daisybee

Talysia said:


> I'll agree with that - especially the wisdom part. I'd agree with the choice of Belgarath, too, although he probably wouldn't like the term 'wizard'.


 
 I thought that too-(the wizard calling) which would tick him off even more so they'd really have no chance!! LOL.

Sorcerer even sounds more eternal. 

Belgarath wins!

He is too well rounded as a character to be labelled a rip-off of someone else- be fair!


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## The Ace

Belgarath drinks anything, oversaw the war of the gods and Vo Mimbre and has battled the disciples of Torak for seven thousand years.

He may have standards, but he's basically a thoroughly disreputable old man who can stop the sun in its tracks.  He's a lot more fun than Gandalf.


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## DeepThought

*Quick Ben* from _Malazan book of the fallen_. Apart from being extremely powerful...he's very cunning, even outwitting Gods in several occassions. Also a thorn in the side of a particular nasty one.... Being a genius certainly helps .

*Tayschrenn*, granted very little is known about him, but in _GOTM _we see him going head to head against one of baddest nastiest dudes...ever to grace the pages of any fantasy fiction is perhaps reason enough not to doubt his magical prowess.

_Merlin, Gendalf, Raistlin, Fizban_, all good choices too.

Cheers, DeepThought


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## paranoid marvin

Roy wood


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## yngvi

Sparrowhawk from the Earthsea books was awesome.  He kicked dragon ass and the way he defied the nameless ones in 'The Tombs of Atuan' was amazing....   He gets my vote.


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## j d worthington

As this sort of thread fits much more the description of the purpose of the SFF Lounge (rather than General Book Discussions), am now moving it there....


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## Thadlerian

I'd stake my money on Drusas Achamian from R. Scott Bakker's _Prince of Nothing_ series. Since we're saying "best", not "most powerful", his magic system -- the Gnosis -- is a winner. Learned and expressed as a set of metaphysical/philosphical concepts which require high intelligence and openness of the mind -- and visualized as multidimensional geometric shapes wreaking havoc all over the place.

And Achamian is such a nice and sensitive person too (he's crying for large parts of the series).


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## Delvo

Nobody said Tim the Enchanter? 

Seriously, it's no contest between Gandalf and the ones I know of. He isn't human. He's a supernatural entity of the same "species" as Balrogs and Sauron and those who were chosen to pilot the sun and moon... an angel in Christian terms, a (perhaps minor) god in more overtly polytheistic terms. Anybody else who's merely human just can't come close.


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## nj1

I'm going say Pug cos he's a master of both the lower and greater paths of magic


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## Grimward

With a nod to Deep Thought for once again beating me to the punch, I'm going to have to choose Gandalf, too, with Fizban (DT's contribution) on the winner's stand as well, (after all, he was the manifestation of Paladine).   Love Wurts' fellowship, Raistlin (who, let's face it, could have unseated Takhisis), Allanon and the rest, but of those I've read about, they're not the same.  (Haven't met Belgarath yet, will reserve right to change my mind)


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## Delvo

Delvo said:


> Nobody said Tim the Enchanter?


Wow, who in the world wrote the code that gives you that face for a colon followed by an "o"? It should be more like this one!:


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## j d worthington

Well, if we're including sorcerers as well as wizards, I'd have to cast my vote for one of the following:

Dr. Meliboë (Fletcher Pratt's *The Well of the Unicorn*)
Gorice of Witchland (E. R. Eddison's *The Worm Ouroboros*)
Merlin (pick a source...)
Gandalf (you really _need_ me to cite _that_ one?)

I'd include Elric, but the difference in emphasis with those stories makes him seem out of place with this company, despite his abilities with the nigromantic arts....


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## Nesacat

There's the anonymous magician in *The Charwoman's Shadow* by Lord Dunsany. The magician both dispenses magic and threatens the other characters by tricking them into giving up their shadows. 

And an old favourite has always been Prospero from *The Tempest* by Shakespeare


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## kaneda

I may be bias as he's my favourite character ever, but I'm going for Raistlin.  Master of past of present.  Hell, he takes on the queen on darkness, and as we know has the ability to defeat her. 

I'm also going for Quick Ben.  Has the power of seven mages I believe and also as mentioned earlier, has the ability to mess around with Gods. 

In my opinion, if you can take on a God, then that makes you powerful.


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## Nesacat

Goodness I don't know how I managed to forget him. Thanks Kaneda. Another vote for Raistlin here. Master of the past and present and so tortured with it as well. Have always been intrigued by this character.


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## Taltos

Harry Dresden - as he is listed in Chicago telephone book and all others are fiction 

Sorry couldn't help myself - and currently reading another Dresden book


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## The Ace

Fine then, (Bel)Garion.  Who else could kill a god in single combat ?


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## nixie

Druras Achmain,Quick Ben, Gandalf, Pug, Merlin... there are so many great wizards  its hard to choose who's best.

For me I think Quick Ben is the best.


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## dekket

Anakha (from the Elenium and Tamuli series of books by David and Leigh Eddings).
I wasn't going to include him as I wasn't really happy with a definition of wizard that would include Bhelliom's child, but then it dawned on me that Sparhawk was trained in the arts of styricum by Sephrina, and thus could be called a wizard. 

Bhelliom's Child had all the power of Bhelliom itself.  Bhelliom ate gods for breakfast... And the power to create entire worlds puts Anakha far beyond any of the others I can think of in terms of power.  And when talking about 'Best wizards', then we must assume 'most powerful'.
I believe Anakha is by far the best.


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## Highlander II

Taltos said:


> Harry Dresden - as he is listed in Chicago telephone book and all others are fiction
> 
> Sorry couldn't help myself - and currently reading another Dresden book



I love this reasoning. 

Though Harry would step up and tell you he's not even close and would point to both Luccio and Morgan as better, not to mention McCoy and even The Merlin (not to be confused, necessarily, with Merlin of King Arthur).

But, given what Harry goes up against and how often he manages to escape with his life - yeah, I'd toss him into the ring too.  (Though, I may be highly biased on this one. *g*)


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## Delvo

If a "wizard" (referring to Bhelliom) can routinely defeat gods, then there's something amiss with the word definitions, in a way that even Gandalf strains. To beat a god, you'd have to be a god, unless what you're calling gods aren't really "gods", and even then you might still actually be what most people think of when they hear the word "god" (lowercase), whereas when most people hear the word "wizard", they think of a human with magic, which inherently has to be less than a god, unless the fictional "universe" we're talking about has some way for humans to ascend to the same level as godhood... in which case we're back to "that's not a wizard; that's a god".

And what about what makes a wizard "best" other than mere power? What about being someone you can identify with or consider conventionally cool in our cultural context (Dresden), or an inspirational leader (Gandalf, who works mainly through others rather than by weilding his own power), or someone normal who stumbles into an absurd position by accident (the "Magic Kingdom for Sale" guy), or someone starting off small-time but then going through a lot of challenges & revelations and growing & coming to better understand himself & the world in the process (Walker Boh and Morgon, the Riddlemaster of Hed)?


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## woodsman

Nakor - okay hes not the most powerful (we think) but dayum he's a trickster of incredible talent. 

Sauron?


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## DeepThought

woodsman said:


> Nakor - okay hes not the most powerful (we think) but dayum he's a trickster of incredible talent.
> 
> * Sauron*?



Agree about _Nakor_...But he seem's more than what initially makes himself out to be... Don't know about the later books (I only read up to _A Darkness at Sethanon_).

Yes I think _Sauron_ would be a direct match to _Gandalf_ himself in power. Also as pointed out  by another poster, they are both arguably minor gods themselves (_Maiar_) albeit lesser in greatness than the _Valar_. Since _Morgoth/Melkor_ was the most powerful of the _Valar_ that _Eru_ created and the fact that he chose _Sauron_ to be his chief lieutenant, leaves no doubt to his power. Don't know about wisdom, I guess _Gandalf_ will top him in this department, since psychopaths are not known for their wisdom.

Cheers, DeepThought


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## Delvo

So have we now expanded the subject to be not just about "wizards" but about any characters with supernatural powers? Sauron was never called a "wizard" and doesn't fit the image of wizards in any way.

If that's the scope of the subject, then that brings up God/Allah/Jehovah/Yahweh/Elohim, who at least fits the "wizard" image better than Sauron because he is at least usually visualized as looking like an old man. But he is a fine example of my point above about other things being just as important or more important to a fictional character's "greatness" rather than just power. He's clearly the most powerful such character ever imagined, but he's also childish, petulant, sadistic, and perhaps manic-depressive.


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## DeepThought

Delvo said:


> So have we now expanded the subject to be not just about "wizards" but about any characters with supernatural powers? Sauron was never called a "wizard" and doesn't fit the image of wizards in any way.
> 
> If that's the scope of the subject, then that brings up God/Allah/Jehovah/Yahweh/Elohim, who at least fits the "wizard" image better than Sauron because he is at least usually visualized as looking like an old man. But he is a fine example of my point above about other things being just as important or more important to a fictional character's "greatness" rather than just power. He's clearly the most powerful such character ever imagined, but he's also childish, petulant, sadistic, and perhaps manic-depressive.



I agree with you that calling Sauron a wizard is more than just a bit of a stretch. To be honest I've only read _The Silmarillion_ once and this was waaaay back. But I'm fairly sure he was referred to as a _sorcerer_ and specifically working for Morgoth. If memory serves, there was actually a scene in which he acts in this capacity; a confrontation between him another being of perhaps evenly matched power. At that time he was not described as a foul insubstantial mist (The Unfinished Tales or Hobbit) nor a black armored mace wielding freak as he was depicted in the movies, but a human like figure albeit what a necromancer would look like...I never thought there was much of a difference between a sorcerer and a Wizard (thought the word was used interchangeably?), only reason I brought up the subject. though I agree he certainly don't fit the cliqued image of a wizard.

Cheers, DeepThought


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## Grimward

Have to agree with DT here.  Sauron very much so was known as The Necromancer while growing in power again at Dol Guldur in Mirkwood.  LOTR goes on to indicate that the best part of his power went into the ring; without it, he retains his all conquering will, but even in that department may be bested (as seen in Aragorn wrenching the palantir of Orthanc away from him).  With his ring, as noted in the book, all hope fades and even Gandalf (thru his own power or thru making others "better") doesn't prevail.  Without the ring, he's questionable (although I too agree that he hardly fits the normal description of a wizard), and certainly less puissant than at the time of his Maiar origin.


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## speedingslug

Gandalf, he far more than a wizard he's a Istari, practically a demi-god. I think he was almost a match for Sauron but could not directly fight him.


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## Marky Lazer

pyan said:


> So there's not much point in nominating Rincewind, then....


Bwah! I was about to nominate him! Compared to Gandalf... I mean, Rincewind never died as far as I know...


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## Perpetual Man

Although I'm leaning toward Gandalf, I'm pretty sure Lerris from the Recluce saga deserves a mention, although he probably does not completely fit the defintion of Wizard... and if we were talking the best wizard, not most powerful perhaps the Librarian. Oook!


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## fingy773

pyan said:


> I'm surprised no-one's mentioned Pug yet...surely he must be up there with the best?


 

i was thinging of pug but then i realised the best wizard is a man who dosen't use magic just tricks

lol tim the enchanter


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## Another

I may be coming into this thread 2 years late, but I have to point out that all of you should be ashamed of yourselves.  I wont argue who the best or wisest wizard is, but you have all ignored one who must certainly be among the best:

Elminster


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## sloweye

I back the Pratchett wizards... my fave? Ridcully


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## No One

David Copperfield must be so disappointed not to get a mention... 

Re: Elminster - it's easy to be omnipotent when the character is an extension of his author (i.e: Ed-who-wants-to-be-Elminster Greenwood )


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## Menion

Rincewind has been in more sticky situations then all of them and servived them all with minimal magical effort! 
Can I get three cheers for Rincewind?
Hip-Hip
Hurray!
Hip-Hip
Huurrraay!
HIP-HIP!!!


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## Starbeast

*AVATAR*







From the 1977 animated movie, _WIZARDS_​


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## mdlachlan

Saruman. He's more interesting than Gandalf, as is Sauron.
Ged from Earthsea defeated death and Elric showed magic has a price to pay.


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## Trailblazer

Not very original but Raistlin transcended the boundaries between mortals and gods, then killed all the other gods, then destroyed the world. 

This being done in a fantasy world with relatively toned down magic. In other words it took so much more to do as opposed to say the Wheel of Time magic where explosions, fireballs and instant global travel etc are mundane abilities available to the average magic user.


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## Radix

Vaughn Bode's *Cheech Wizard!*


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## Deathpool

Voldemort would just summon dementors and have kiss administered on them all. If dumbledoor had the undefeatable he'd for sure win. In other words the Deathstick. Voldemort also had the basilisk in the chamber of secrets. Remember a basalisk kills any who looks into its eyes instantly I doubt any of them would stand a chance against the cruciates curse. Bella tortured the Longbottoms passed insanity with it. They weren't insane. They were past insanity. In Harry Potter and Order of Pheonix the instructor aministering the exam said that Dumbledoor was doing things with charms that had never been done before. If he doesn't want to be found he won't be found. Dumbledoor rescued Dolores Umbridge from centaurs and didn't receive a scratch. I choose Sirirs. You don't want to mess with him because he was framed and put in Azcaban for twelve years. When he escaped he was so angry if Harry hadn't stopped he would've commited the murder he was accused of. Now Mad Eye took out a Death Eater simply by slamming his cane the ground.


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## clovis-man

So.........Apparently no votes at all for the Great and Powerful Oz.


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## mr kite

See My Baby Jive .


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## bookfan

Kakashi!

Even the characters in Naruto are supposed to be shinobi's, they have powers along the lines of wizards ie summoning, elemental manipulation...


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## cornelius

I might have misread, but I didn't see anyone mention Macros the Black from Feist. 

Not sure who I'd put my money on...It really depends.

Quick Ben seems like a good choice. Clever, powerful,... Has a more then a couple of tricks up his sleave. Special mention to Kruppe- he's not a run in the mill wizard but if his ..."tricks" allow him to stand up against an angry Caladan Brood (it's in white)

You can't say tricks without thinking about Nakor if you've read Feist. But I've already mentioned Macros the black. Pug is incredibly powerful too, But he's not as slick as Macros nor Nakor. I don't Pug would trump Quick Ben, unless he found a way to neutralise Quicky, which is a typical plotline Feist uses. 

Belgarion/Belgarath are very powerful but they are in a setting in which magic almost immediatly scales up to epic proportions. 

Gandalf doesn't use much of his power in LOTR. Magic in LOTR is something that's always present on the background. You'll rarely see actual magic being used, it's more implied. It's hard to estimate Gandalf's full potential, especially when peter Jackson decides to change certain crucial things like the stand-off between the Witch King and Gandalf.

 I don't think I'm supposed to add characters from my own writings, am I?


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## Deathpool

Sauron had the ring that would rule them all so he's the most powerful wizard in Lord of the Rings. Remember? It went something like this. One right to rule them all. One ring to bring the darkness. One ring to bring war.


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## Menion

Deathpool said:


> Sauron had the ring that would rule them all so he's the most powerful wizard in Lord of the Rings. Remember? It went something like this. One right to rule them all. One ring to bring the darkness. One ring to bring war.


One ring to rule them all, One ring to find them, One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
Isn't it?


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## cornelius

Menion said:


> One ring to rule them all, One ring to find them, One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
> Isn't it?


 
Yep.

I just don't see Sauron as a wizard. He transcended that with the Ring.


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## Menion

He was the aprentice to the Semi-God Morgoth, Wasn't he a kind of Noble Elf. I never pictured him as an actual wizard.


Another wizard to chat about would be Bayaz_ (I just finished The First Law series 5 minutes ago)_


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## Toby Frost

Merlin. Not only is he the reformed Antichrist, according to some sources, but he seems to have created the beard/hat/crotchetty old man look*. His powers are great, and if he were to sue other wizards for stealing his look...

*Yes, I know this is arguable. But he's still The Original Wizard.


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## psychotick

Hi,

Late to the debate, but my vote goes to a witch, Willow Rosenburg from Buffy. No pointy hat or long beard, but when she went bad she did damn near destroy the world.

Oh and I love Harry Dresdon, but for all the talk about his power he's constantly being beaten up by vampires and the like. Maybe uber powerful just means he can take a punch.

Cheers.


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## Chaoticheart

Quick Ben takes my vote. I love him, he's ridiculously powerful and his attitude is just brilliant.


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## J-WO

Has anyone mentioned Catweezle yet?


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## psychotick

Hi,

Just remembered this thread, and since I've now published Maverick, I think my wizard Marjan could take the rest of this lot on with his eyes closed. He's a battlemage don't you know!

Cheers.


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## Cynic

Anasûrimbor Kellhus


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## BAYLOR

Magus Rex


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## The Big Peat

Toby Frost said:


> Merlin. Not only is he the reformed Antichrist, according to some sources, but he seems to have created the beard/hat/crotchetty old man look*. His powers are great, and if he were to sue other wizards for stealing his look...
> 
> *Yes, I know this is arguable. But he's still The Original Wizard.



Odin would like a word with you about that statement.


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## reiver33

I'd suggest discounting all gods/demi-gods/semi-gods/etc. as - personal definition - a wizard is a human practitioner of magic.


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