# Scotland to get own spaceport



## Brian G Turner (Jul 15, 2018)

The BBC reports that Highlands & Islands Enterprise is expected to confirm a site in the far north of Scotland will become the UK's first spaceport: Sutherland expected to host spaceport



> The A'Mhoine peninsula in Sutherland would be used for vertical rocket and satellite launches.
> 
> The site between Tongue and Durness is believed to be the best in the UK for vertical launches into orbit.
> 
> Sutherland was in competition with other sites, including Prestwick in Ayrshire, Unst in Shetland and Newquay airport in Cornwall.



It's still a shame that Lossiemouth remains off the list, especially with big transport improvements coming to the road and rail network here. 

Still, maybe one day. 

In the meantime, the location HIE are expected to announce is pretty remote - here's an image of where it is on the map, with a question mark left at Lossiemouth - just in case.


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## Anthoney (Jul 15, 2018)

Are they getting a *Space Force* too?


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## thaddeus6th (Jul 15, 2018)

I hope the staff uniforms are modelled on the original series of Star Trek.

We should build many space ports.


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## Onyx (Jul 15, 2018)

Ken MacLeod must be pleased.


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## chrispenycate (Jul 15, 2018)

And there's me thinking the closer to the equator, the more energy you could pull out of the Earth's rotation, so the easier and more energy efficient the transfer can be.


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## Vertigo (Jul 16, 2018)

chrispenycate said:


> And there's me thinking the closer to the equator, the more energy you could pull out of the Earth's rotation, so the easier and more energy efficient the transfer can be.


I believe they are saying that with modern systems getting more efficient and lighter it's not as important any longer. Must admit I immediately thought the same thing.

What strikes me is that the road access to that area is appalling and simply could not take any significant increase, especially of significant large lorry loads and there are no railway lines or airports anywhere near. The only way I could see this as being practical would be to plan on using sea access for all significant construction and rocket materials.


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## Brian G Turner (Jul 16, 2018)

Vertigo said:


> What strikes me is that the road access to that area is appalling and simply could not take any significant increase, especially of significant large lorry loads and there are no railway lines or airports anywhere near. The only way I could see this as being practical would be to plan on using sea access for all significant construction and rocket materials.



I noticed that as well - at least with Lossiemouth there was the possibility of a newly dualled A9 and A96 by the time any spaceport opened.


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## Foxbat (Jul 16, 2018)

They were modelling the Scottish Space Force uniform at the Festival a couple of years ago.


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## Brian G Turner (Feb 7, 2019)

Cool - the town next door expects to have a mission control and space tech design center for the Sutherland launch site. 

Spaceport firm to open mission control


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## J Riff (Feb 7, 2019)

Is *Space Command* hiring? I want a tartan spacesuit.


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## CTRandall (Feb 8, 2019)

Not to play on stereotypes but won't weather be a problem? High winds are a pretty common, if somewhat seasonal, occurence. And how do modern rockets fare with freezing temperatures?

Though I can't wait to hear bagpipes in space. That'll blow Tim Peake's guitar-strumming-predictably-Bowie video out of the sky.


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## Vladd67 (Feb 8, 2019)

I posted a couple of questions on Quora about building a space port in the U.K. and the space industry’s contribution to the UK’s economy. Sadly the answers showed just how little the general public know about the Space industry in the U.K. All the answers appeared to think a space port meant some sort of Dan Dare fantasy and had no actual knowledge of the British satellite industry.


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## thaddeus6th (Feb 8, 2019)

Bagpipes on Earth are bad enough...

That said, we should have more space ports. I just hope space can stay neutral. The Chinese may well try and use it to technologically leapfrog the huge advantage the US has with conventional forces.


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## J Riff (Feb 8, 2019)

In space, no-one can hear you skirl.


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## CTRandall (Feb 8, 2019)

J Riff said:


> In space, no-one can hear you skirl.



When bagpipes are involved, I wouldn't bet on that. I believe they were the original inspiration for the band "Disaster Area" in Douglas Adams' _The Restaurant at the End of the Universe._

And I love 'em.


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## -K2- (Feb 9, 2019)

Well, it seems the hard part has already been done...

*Mars now has its own tartan thanks to Edinburgh scientist*







Now all they need to do is fiddle with those other petty details and they're off to the stars!

K2


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## picklematrix (Feb 9, 2019)

I lived in Scotland until I was 16. I might have been tempted to stay if I'd known a space port was on the horizon.


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## J Riff (Feb 9, 2019)

Played bagpipes, went to pipe camp, marched on the streets of Moose Jaw. Played _The Black Bea_r a lot, started smoking at pipe camp. 
One night my pipes escaped, never to be seen again.


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## Danny McG (Feb 9, 2019)




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## AnyaKimlin (Feb 10, 2019)

A rocket design company and the headquarters have opened in Forres - quite an exciting time to be studying mechanics in Moray    I'm going to send a CV in. See if I can't get some work experience.  I'm hoping a driving licence isn't a requirement, and it might help supplement the engineering course (the years 3&4 have really improved)

Firm behind Sutherland spaceport to open base in Moray | Press and Journal


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## CTRandall (Feb 10, 2019)

I like the idea of being out walking in the middle of nowhere, hearing a sudden roar in the distance and watching a rocket rise on a tail of fire and smoke into the sky. That would be cool!


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## -K2- (Feb 10, 2019)

CTRandall said:


> I like the idea of being out walking in the middle of nowhere, hearing a sudden roar in the distance and watching a rocket rise on a tail of fire and smoke into the sky. That would be cool!



Remember, sometimes what goes up, comes down.







Chicken Little and all that 

K2


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## Boaz (Feb 10, 2019)

Scots, wha hae wi' Wallace bled,
Scots, wham Bruce has aften led;
Welcome to your gory bed,
         Or to Alpha Centauri!


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## Brian G Turner (Oct 23, 2020)

Well, the Sutherland site continues to be developed:








						Sutherland Space Hub secures planning permission
					

The Sutherland Space Hub is the first satellite launch site proposed for Scotland to clear the planning process.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




However, we're going to see a 2nd one set up on Shetland by Lockheed Martin:








						Shetland space centre plans take step nearer launch
					

A satellite launch facility on Unst, the most northerly island in Scotland, could support hundreds of jobs.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Droflet (Oct 23, 2020)

Okay, they've got a spaceport. Now, where are they going?


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## Ambrose (Oct 23, 2020)

Lockheed Martin was looking at the Sutherland site, but has gone for Unst.  Maybe sea access is a factor.
The rockets involved will be small, and the payloads cubesats many of which Clydespace in Glasgow is already a producer. 
A US/UK Technology Safeguards Agreement was signed mid-October.  There is also a Memorandum of Agreement with the Faroe Islands as to overflight by UK launches, which must indicate that launch to near-polar orbits are likely.    
The UK launch sites will operate under new legislation.  The Space Industry Act 2018 is pretty complex, and as for the related draft Regulations currently out for consultation . . . !









						Shetland spaceport boosts UK's plans for launch
					

UK strengthens position as European small satellite launch destination of choice




					www.gov.uk


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## Ambrose (Oct 23, 2020)

Other UK sites further south are under consideration for use by aircraft launches, and maybe even Branson's form of space tourism.


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## Foxbat (Oct 23, 2020)

Virgin Galactic? haven’t heard from them for a while.


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## Ambrose (Oct 23, 2020)

Not sure about Virgin Galactic.  My point really was that the 2018 Act, and the Regulations (including a set as to the investigation of accidents) provide for manned space vehicles.


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## Foxbat (Oct 23, 2020)

There’s also an article in the UK Defence Journal








						Shetland Spaceport boosts UK space launch capabilities
					

"We want the UK to be the best place in Europe to launch satellites."




					ukdefencejournal.org.uk
				




Virgin Orbit is mentioned in it. Don’t know if that’s just a name change or a whole new company


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## Ambrose (Oct 23, 2020)

Probably a new company invented to separate off something in the Virgin empire.  Entrepreneurs like to insulate their efforts so that a failure does not bring down the entire enterprise.

Virgin Galactic's website has a bit about an arrangement with  NASA that may lead to work for them.


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## Danny McG (Oct 24, 2020)

Droflet said:


> Okay, they've got a spaceport. Now, where are they going?


Space, I would think.


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## Vladd67 (Oct 24, 2020)

The amount of money the space industry brings into this country is heavily underestimated by most people.


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## AE35Unit (Oct 24, 2020)

Beam me up Scotty


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## F.J. Hansen (Oct 31, 2020)

In the story I'm currently writing, I have a spaceport in Southampton as of 2105 where the airport is now and featuring a launch mechanism inspired by Fireball XL-5.


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## Vladd67 (Oct 31, 2020)

F.J. Hansen said:


> In the story I'm currently writing, I have a spaceport in Southampton as of 2105 where the airport is now and featuring a launch mechanism inspired by Fireball XL-5.


In one of the League of Extraordinary Gentleman books, there is a throwaway line about how the X-L (short for "Extra-Large") series is a series of American-made space rockets automatically piloted by "see-through" robots. As a tradition, each vessel is traditionally named after the manner of its predecessor's destruction, there was Mushroom Cloud X-L 2, Shrapnel X-L 3, and Pancake X-L 4.


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## Brian G Turner (Nov 20, 2020)

Interesting piece on why Scotland is a good choice for launching rockets: 









						Why is Scotland a prime rocket launch site?
					

The Scottish government has unveiled a plan to build a network of satellite launch sites.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Foxbat (Nov 20, 2020)

A lot to think about for the planners. I never realised places like the Faroes and Iceland would have to be taken into consideration.


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## Ambrose (Nov 21, 2020)

AT least it's safer to launch from Scotland away from going over Europe.  Were a launch to go wrong and, say, land on the EU headquarters in Brussels the damages would be considerable.  See the Liability Convention, 1972.   The launch licence could, of course, cap the extent to which the launcher company is liable, but then the UK would have to pick up the rest of the tab.


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## Brian G Turner (Feb 10, 2021)

Lockheed Martin seems to be getting organized fast with Shetland:








						Lockheed Martin selects ABL rocket for Shetland launches
					

The aerospace giant will use a California start-up's new vehicle for satellite missions from Unst.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Ambrose (Feb 10, 2021)

There is an interesting Memorandum of Understanding with the Faroe Islands allowing UK launches, giving notice and avoiding causing problems for the Islands fishing fleets.


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## CTRandall (Feb 10, 2021)

First launch next year? Wow.

I'm a little torn, what with environmental concerns, but it seems both very cool and a good thing for the Shetlands.


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## BigBadBob141 (Feb 21, 2021)

This won't go down too well with the locals, they'll have to hang on to their kilts every time there's a launch!


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## Vladd67 (Feb 21, 2021)




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## AnyaKimlin (Feb 21, 2021)

There are a lot of jobs going at Orbex at the moment....


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## Danny McG (Apr 6, 2021)

I found this quote online...
*"The U.K. has only ever conducted a single orbital rocket launch, which took place from Australia back in 1971. No rocket has ever been launched to orbit from the U.K. itself*."
Does anyone have details?


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## Ursa major (Apr 6, 2021)

Danny McG said:


> Does anyone have details?


I'm pretty sure that no one launched a rocket from the area just in front of my garage.

Is that detailed enough?


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## Serendipity (Apr 6, 2021)

Danny McG said:


> I found this quote online...
> *"The U.K. has only ever conducted a single orbital rocket launch, which took place from Australia back in 1971. No rocket has ever been launched to orbit from the U.K. itself*."
> Does anyone have details?


Black Arrow launched from Woomera 28th October 1971.


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## Vladd67 (Apr 7, 2021)

I believe rocket engines were tested on the Isle of Wight but no Rockets have been launched from the U.K. After Tony Benn killed our space programme we’ve made satellites in this country but launched them elsewhere.


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## Pyan (Apr 7, 2021)

I thought that Edinburgh had already got its own spaceport - I'm sure I've seen pictures of Thunderbird 3 ready for lift off from Princes Street Gardens...


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## Vladd67 (Apr 7, 2021)

I believe The Goons put the Albert Memorial in Space.


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## Ursa major (Apr 7, 2021)

Powered, no doubt, by a novel application of the Hall effect....


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## AE35Unit (Apr 7, 2021)

Danny McG said:


> I found this quote online...
> *"The U.K. has only ever conducted a single orbital rocket launch, which took place from Australia back in 1971. No rocket has ever been launched to orbit from the U.K. itself*."
> Does anyone have details?


Every November there's tons or rockets go off here in England


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## AnyaKimlin (May 19, 2021)

From Shetland today:






						SaxaVord – UK Space Port
					






					shetlandspacecentre.com


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## Ray Zdybrow (May 20, 2021)

While I do think space exploration and even exploitation are good, doing it with rockets launched from Earth is stupid because of the atmospheric pollution. Scotland should be looking at other ways of escaping the gravity well rather than accommodating short-sighted corporations who want to flatter the country's ambitions.


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## AnyaKimlin (May 20, 2021)

Ray Zdybrow said:


> While I do think space exploration and even exploitation are good, doing it with rockets launched from Earth is stupid because of the atmospheric pollution. Scotland should be looking at other ways of escaping the gravity well rather than accommodating short-sighted corporations who want to flatter the country's ambitions.


Part of the reason they are here is the skillset.

I know way more aircraft mechanics and engineers than I do car mechanics.


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## Ursa major (May 20, 2021)

Ray Zdybrow said:


> Scotland should be looking at other ways of escaping the gravity well


That's easy to say, but exactly what would these ways be (ignoring those only seen in SF and SciFi...)?


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## CupofJoe (May 20, 2021)

Ursa major said:


> That's easy to say, but exactly what would these ways be (ignoring those only seen in SF and SciFi...)?


There is a joke political answer to this that would probably get me censured by the admins.
As for getting to space... I WANT MY SPACE ELEVATOR NOW!


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## Ursa major (May 20, 2021)

CupofJoe said:


> I WANT MY SPACE ELEVATOR NOW!


Keep shouting that and you'll be reported as being an... er... "stalker"....

​


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## Vertigo (May 20, 2021)

CupofJoe said:


> There is a joke political answer to this that would probably get me censured by the admins.
> As for getting to space... I WANT MY SPACE ELEVATOR NOW!


But a space elevator can never be an option from Scotland!

I can see the pollution issue but considering how many launches there are likely to be I don't think it adds any statistically significant pollution as compared to, say, just one person's daily commute to work in their car.


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## AnyaKimlin (May 20, 2021)

Vertigo said:


> But a space elevator can never be an option from Scotland!
> 
> I can see the pollution issue but considering how many launches there are likely to be I don't think it adds any statistically significant pollution as compared to, say, just one person's daily commute to work in their car.


And probably not as much as a squadron of fighter jets regularly flying.

Not to mention the new Posiedon.

The Highlands experiences very little car and industry pollution in comparison to the rest of the UK.


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## Vertigo (May 20, 2021)

AnyaKimlin said:


> And probably not as much as a squadron of fighter jets regularly flying.


It's blissful how few of those I've had screaming through our valley lately!


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## AnyaKimlin (May 20, 2021)

Vertigo said:


> It's blissful how few of those I've had screaming through our valley lately!



We get them taking off and landing which is always the best bit.  We miss out on the annoying bit.

We don't get so many now that Kinloss is an Army engineering base rather than a RAF base but we still get them and we had the Poseidons for awhile whilst they got Lossiemouth ready for them.


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## Vertigo (May 20, 2021)

AnyaKimlin said:


> We get them taking off and landing which is always the best bit.  We miss out on the annoying bit.
> 
> We don't get so many now that Kinloss is an Army engineering base rather than a RAF base but we still get them and we had the Poseidons for awhile whilst they got Lossiemouth ready for them.


Yes I figured that was a large part of the reason. Also when they were last really bad was in the lead up to the Gulf war, I seem to recall.


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## AnyaKimlin (May 20, 2021)

Vertigo said:


> Yes I figured that was a large part of the reason. Also when they were last really bad was in the lead up to the Gulf war, I seem to recall.


 
I think Kinloss planes were the ones that went down Loch Ness.  The Lossie planes seem to go out over the sea more.

I used to know when we were off to bomb somewhere before the news announced it.  Planes going out to bomb someone has a very different sound to planes playing war games.  It's a constant stream of jets, heavy planes etc and they come and go in order.


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## Ursa major (May 20, 2021)

Vertigo said:


> It's blissful how few of those I've had screaming through our valley lately!


Where I live, we get the "NHS" plane regularly flying over, either landing or taking off...


...and, more recently, another A340. At first, I thought it was the NHS plane, but back in its original colours (well colour, singular: white), but I saw both in the space of a couple of hours just the other day.


These planes are not noisy and they seem to fly very slowly, although that may be me misjudging their size (and thus both their altitude and speed). That's quite possible: the A340 is a wide-body aircraft but looks surprisingly slim (which strongly suggests that it's a lot longer, and with a much larger wingspan, than I assumed it was at first glance).


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## AnyaKimlin (May 22, 2021)

Ursa major said:


> These planes are not noisy and they seem to fly very slowly, although that may be me misjudging their size (and thus both their altitude and speed). That's quite possible: the A340 is a wide-body aircraft but looks surprisingly slim (which strongly suggests that it's a lot longer, and with a much larger wingspan, than I assumed it was at first glance).



A fighter jet makes the most incredible noise starting up.  Kinloss is better than Lossiemouth where they can be heard starting up in town and on the beach.  But to to be honest I am so used to jets even now I barely notice them.

I miss seeing them take off from the bus - it's a sight that never gets old.  The bus stops just before the end of the runway to let the planes land and take off.  This was years ago but I was on the bus for this one just slightly to the left of the shot.


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## Ursa major (May 22, 2021)

AnyaKimlin said:


> A fighter jet makes the most incredible noise starting up


Yes, they do.

Many years decades ago, I went (well, was taken) to the Farnborough Airshow. Very noisy... but I was there voluntarily, so couldn't really complain... not that I was ever going to.

The A300 (I think it was the A300) made its first appearance there (I think it was its first appearance) the time I went. It was very quiet compared to other civilian aircraft, let alone the military ones, and seemed relatively manoeuvrable (but then we don't usually see, or travel in, commercial airliners when their pilots are showing them off).


*EDIT*: Thinking about it, it's unlikely to have been the A300 on it first appearance, as that plane was already in service before I went to the airshow (it was so long ago, I can't recall the year). So it was either a later variant or model, _or_ there was some other reason for its presence at that particular show.


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## CupofJoe (May 23, 2021)

Ursa major said:


> Yes, they do.
> 
> Many years decades ago, I went (well, was taken) to the Farnborough Airshow. Very noisy... but I was there voluntarily, so couldn't really complain... not that I was ever going to.
> 
> ...


Back in the 80s, because of my then girlfriend's parents [who did something at the RAE they couldn't tell me about], I got in on a Farnborough Trade Day when the first fly-by-wire Airbus made its appearance. It took off whisper-quiet, made a tight right banking turn that was so slow that I can remember people saying "Oh god no..." as if it was going to crash. It looked like it was stuck in the air rather than flying.


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## Ursa major (May 23, 2021)

CupofJoe said:


> It took off whisper-quiet, made a tight right banking turn that was so slow that I can remember people saying "Oh god no..." as if it was going to crash. It looked like it was stuck in the air rather than flying.


That could very well be what I was watching.


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## BigBadBob141 (May 23, 2021)

I can remember one air show, maybe RAF Fairford, it was so damned wet that as a jet fighter flew around, it was American but I can't remember which one, maybe a Tom Cat or Eagle, it would get bursts of flash condensation over its wings roots as it maneuvered, never seen this before or since.


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## Ray Zdybrow (Jun 5, 2021)

Ursa major said:


> That's easy to say, but exactly what would these ways be (ignoring those only seen in SF and SciFi...)?


Erm


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## Foxbat (Oct 13, 2021)

Latest update








						UK to launch space missions from Scotland next year
					

This will be the first commercial rocket to go to space from the UK.




					ukdefencejournal.org.uk


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## BigBadBob141 (Oct 14, 2021)

If the rocket is small enough they don't need to launch directly off the ground, just use a champion Caber tosser to get it started!


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## Dan Jones (Oct 14, 2021)

It really is shocking that I've missed this thread completely, considering who I work for. If my boss knew he'd give me a rocket...


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## AE35Unit (Oct 14, 2021)

Dan Jones said:


> It really is shocking that I've missed this thread completely, considering who I work for. If my boss knew he'd give me a rocket...


Who do you work for?


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## Dan Jones (Oct 14, 2021)

The UK Space Agency. I don't work on the Spaceflight Programme (that's the team managing the development of the Sutherland spaceport) but sometimes my work on space robotics crosses over with it.


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## Foxbat (Dec 10, 2021)

Latest news.








						Construction starts on British space launch facility in Scotland
					

This is the first orbital space launchpad to be built in the UK for more than half a century.




					ukdefencejournal.org.uk


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## AnyaKimlin (Dec 10, 2021)

Foxbat said:


> Latest news.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


there's a right local barney going on about it. It's on the edge of a local billionaire's land.


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## Foxbat (Dec 11, 2021)

I presume the billionaire is upset it might affect his hunting and shooting?


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## Justin Swanton (Dec 11, 2021)

I always wonder how commercial spaceflight makes its profits. It's all communication satellites, right? But after a while aren't there enough of them up there, or do they wear out pretty fast and need to be constantly replaced?


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## Foxbat (Dec 11, 2021)

I’ve wondered the same things and I’m none the wiser


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## AE35Unit (Dec 11, 2021)

Foxbat said:


> I presume the billionaire is upset it might affect his hunting and shooting?


Make it so!


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## Dan Jones (Dec 12, 2021)

Justin Swanton said:


> I always wonder how commercial spaceflight makes its profits. It's all communication satellites, right? But after a while aren't there enough of them up there, or do they wear out pretty fast and need to be constantly replaced?



Commercial spaceflight isn't just satcomms; it's also Earth observation, and there are civil markets which use commercial operators and developers. There's also a big civil (ie Governments, military and security) and institutional (space agency-led scientific missions) market, which in a lot of cases rely on private companies (and universities) to develop the platforms and systems for launch. 

Satcomms is the big money spinner though, certainly for the UK. The profits come from the ability to develop and sell the actual platforms to communications companies. The buyers - telecomms companies, such as Sky, Vodafone etc - tend to have big pockets. 

Comms satellites have a long-ish lifespan (10-15 years) but yes, up until now they've had to be replaced when they reach the end of their functional life. That means we have what's known as a "single-use" business model ie you make something very complicated that's used once, which is very expensive. Hence there are big profits to be made if you're a developer that has a product that has proven reliability. Satcomms has become a critical service in the last twenty years (in the UK space has been categorised as part of our critical national infrastructure) and if it were to go down there would be huge implications for life on the ground. From the perspective of shareholders in Sky or such companies, they don't want unreliable products in space, so they pay the big bucks for them.

In the next few years you'll see a new breed of satellite, which can be serviced in space, ie it will have the functionality to allow "servicer" spacecraft which will be able to refuel them, exchange payloads, implement software upgrades etc etc to improve the longevity of the satellites, This will mitigate space debris, and give the satellite operators greater flexibility. 

I'm working on a project to create a suite of three "in-orbit demonstrators" in which the UK will develop these sorts of capabilities, known as "in-orbit servicing". You never know, these missions might be flown from the UK, but it won't happen until 2025 or so. Until then the spaceport in Scotland will mainly be launching small satellites.


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## Vladd67 (Dec 12, 2021)

I remember when this was first put forward, seeing some comments on line it was obvious most people have no idea of the importance of the space industry to our economy.


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## psikeyhackr (Dec 12, 2021)

Danny McG said:


> View attachment 49936


That's it! 
Maybe bagpipes can wipe out those pernicious Jedi Knights.


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## AnyaKimlin (Dec 13, 2021)

Foxbat said:


> I presume the billionaire is upset it might affect his hunting and shooting?



that and the view... the new age foundation is worried about the ecological impact. I can't see it going up without a load of protests.


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## Vertigo (Dec 14, 2021)

AnyaKimlin said:


> that and the view... the new age foundation is worried about the ecological impact. I can't see it going up without a load of protests.


The ecological impacts will be a tiny fraction of the impact of the hoards of North Coast 500ers, especially those in their motorhomes and tents dumping their toilets on the roadside. I mean stop and think how many launches they will be running: they won't exactly be a daily occurrence.


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## AnyaKimlin (Dec 14, 2021)

Vertigo said:


> The ecological impacts will be a tiny fraction of the impact of the hoards of North Coast 500ers, especially those in their motorhomes and tents dumping their toilets on the roadside. I mean stop and think how many launches they will be running: they won't exactly be a daily occurrence.



I know and probably no more or less than the airbase over the years. If the latter closes we will need the space industry. I'd rather see rockets going in to space than jets off to bomb (although that is an amazing sight).

But it doesn't change the fact that people are arguing and protesting. One of them has the pockets to keep pursuing it and the other the manpower to physically protest.


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## Dan Jones (Dec 14, 2021)

I'm sure the spaceport will bring jobs and infrastructure to the area. Maybe (though I dont have any intel on this either way) the Space Agency will open a regional office up there too, in which case it'd be a great opportunity to visit for me.



AnyaKimlin said:


> I know and probably no more or less than the airbase over the years. If the latter closes we will need the space industry. I'd rather see rockets going in to space than jets off to bomb (although that is an amazing sight).



Indeed! Will be very cool. The UK remains the only country to have developed and demonstrated spaceflight technology and then mothball it. Will be great to see it back.


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## AnyaKimlin (Dec 14, 2021)

Dan Jones said:


> Indeed! Will be very cool. The UK remains the only country to have developed and demonstrated spaceflight technology and then mothball it. Will be great to see it back.



I am quite excited, hoping I can see the launches from the house but might have to walk a bit as I am in the middle of a housing estate. It depends exactly which field it is .

Watching the jets take off is amazing (even after nearly thirty years) so I imagine this is just as fantastic to watch.


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## Foxbat (Dec 14, 2021)

I would have thought the ability to put satellites into space might actually help in the fight against climate change by giving us a big picture view of the effects and therefore allow a better understanding of what we need to prepare for.


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## Dan Jones (Dec 14, 2021)

Foxbat said:


> I would have thought the ability to put satellites into space might actually help in the fight against climate change by giving us a big picture view of the effects and therefore allow a better understanding of what we need to prepare for.


EO (Earth Observation) is a huge part of this and is used by the Met Office not just for the weather report but also for this very thing, as we're now able to collate large archives of data to show changes in ecosystems over time. Not everything is the result of human activity, and it's useful to know what's what. EO is big business; the UK remains part of the EU's Copernicus programme despite Brexit as it's mutually beneficial to both parties, and we provide a lot of good expertise in terms of both systems design and manufacture, and data exploitation.

Yes, launching a rocket into space does require the burning of a large amount of kerosene, but as @Vertigo says, it's not like there are millions of them happening every day. The impact of it compared to, say, IT, or automotive, is probably negligible. And, as I said in an earlier post, in-orbit servicing will perhaps reduce the need for launches by shifting the infrastructure to space, and making it more long-lived.


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## Ambrose (Dec 14, 2021)

There's also a numerically small industry for lawyers negotiating and drafting contracts etc while making sure that the relevant international law is complied with.


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## Brian G Turner (Mar 1, 2022)

Well, Shetland is getting one as well!









						Shetland spaceport gains planning approval
					

Rocket launches in the far north of the UK come a step nearer after planning permission is granted.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Robert Zwilling (Mar 1, 2022)

The Starlink satellites have a projected life span of 5 years and then they drop into the upper atmosphere where they burn up. Supposed to keep space junk down to a reasonable level by not adding to it. This sounds like disposable satellites are now on the menu, which means they will need to keep putting them up there on a constant basis. The cost of designing and building mini satellites has plummeted and there are plenty of organizations and companies that want to put satellites up into space.


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## Dan Jones (Mar 1, 2022)

Robert Zwilling said:


> This sounds like disposable satellites are now on the menu


One of the advantages of constellation satellites is that redundancy is built into the system; if one dies, it can simply be moved to a graveyard orbit where it can, as you say, eventually burn up into nothing. And a replacement can be put into orbit without the whole system being compromised.

The cost might come down even more as new fabrication and manufacturing processes come along, as well as the cost of launch. Good news for Scotland and the UK with these new spaceports being approved.


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## CupofJoe (May 11, 2022)

Another step closer...








						Scottish spaceport's prototype rocket unveiled
					

The final version of the 19m-long Prime rocket is to be launched from a site in Sutherland.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Christine Wheelwright (May 11, 2022)

Dan Jones said:


> Yes, launching a rocket into space does require the burning of a large amount of kerosene, but as @Vertigo says, it's not like there are millions of them happening every day. The impact of it compared to, say, IT, or automotive, is probably negligible. And, as I said in an earlier post, in-orbit servicing will perhaps reduce the need for launches by shifting the infrastructure to space, and making it more long-lived.



I accept that is the case right now.  But I suspect joy rides up to 100km (arbitrarily designated as 'space') will become a major money-making industry within the next ten years and the resulting number of launches will be enormous.  Curious if you agree.


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## Vertigo (May 11, 2022)

Christine Wheelwright said:


> I accept that is the case right now.  But I suspect joy rides up to 100km (arbitrarily designated as 'space') will become a major money-making industry within the next ten years and the resulting number of launches will be enormous.  Curious if you agree.


Such 'joy-ride' spacecraft would be much too big for small space ports like this one and, at least for the foreseeable future, will probably continue to be so expensive as to be self-limiting regarding the number of passengers.


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## Christine Wheelwright (May 11, 2022)

Vertigo said:


> .......and, at least for the foreseeable future, will probably continue to be so expensive as to be self-limiting regarding the number of passengers.



Well, there is a lot of money floating around out there in the private sector!  And we may talk about the super-rich as the '0.1%',  but 0.1% of 1 billion people is 10 million.  I think the only self-limitation will be the challenge of building the rockets to satisfy demand.  Selling tickets will not be a problem.  And it will certainly become a major contributor to pollution and greenhouse emissions.  But, as usual, we are going to drift into this and only start to question it when it is already well established.

And, by the way, all this talk of manned Mars missions exists only to keep the public enthusiastic (and to stroke the egos of certain entrepreneurs).  Nobody is seriously working on any of that.


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## Dan Jones (May 11, 2022)

Christine Wheelwright said:


> I accept that is the case right now.  But I suspect joy rides up to 100km (arbitrarily designated as 'space') will become a major money-making industry within the next ten years and the resulting number of launches will be enormous.  Curious if you agree.





Vertigo said:


> Such 'joy-ride' spacecraft would be much too big for small space ports like this one and, at least for the foreseeable future, will probably continue to be so expensive as to be self-limiting regarding the number of passengers.



Joyride is a curious term, not one that I would use as a professional! @Vertigo is right, the sort of market you're working in dictates the type of launcher and launch service you need. Space tourism (not joyriding!) would require bigger launch vehicles, bigger than can be feasibly launched from the UK. Where the UK will be very well placed will be in the small satellite market, which is growing quite a bit.

I see space tourism as still rather kitschy and too niche to become truly huge, and definitely so within your ten year timeframe (is that figure taken from anywhere or a random figure?). But I'm sure there will be more launches, but building space infrastructure in space is still governed by space infrastructure on the ground, and currently it's still difficult to envisage more large launch sites being built at pace given the investment required. There just aren't that many viable sites. So the amount of launches for new markets such as tourism isn't likely to change much IMHO. And, given that Russia is now international persona non grata and Space City in Kazakhstan will be _hors de combat_ from a western perspective, it could be that launches actually decrease, at least in the short term. 

I do see the offshoots of space access technology (ie launch) as being important in other ways, such as spinning off viable technologies for more terrestrial sectors such as transport. Could be that hypersonics technologies, developed by some space companies, could create sub-orbital transport systems that would enable somebody to travel from, say, the UK to Australia, in 2-4 hours. We shall see!


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## Christine Wheelwright (May 11, 2022)

The ten years is just off the top of my head.  But I think within ten - maybe fifteen - years we will be seeing significant numbers of space tourism launches (why can't I call them joyrides?).  I'm talking more than one per day.  There is a profitable business there for sure.  Regarding the sub-orbital travel; sure it is feasible.  But I think the initial demand will be for the _experience _of going to space (if you think of it as space) rather than knocking a few hours off conventional flight time.


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## Dan Jones (May 11, 2022)

You may well be right. If more launch platforms and launch vehicles appear, and launch scheduling permits, then it could well be a moneyspinner, and you never know, it could even be a repeat of the growth of the aviation sector in the early 20th century, from BOAC to Easyjet. Maybe in sixty years it'll become as readily available as aviation is today? I've no idea.

You're absolutely right - the sheer thrill of going to space should be enough to if not sustain, then at least maintain interest in, what is a very nascent industry. I'm just saying it depends on other factors, too. 



Christine Wheelwright said:


> (why can't I call them joyrides?)


Ok this might be a case of being lost in translation - "joyride" has a very negative connotation in the UK, of criminals stealing cars and driving them until they're destroyed!


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## AnyaKimlin (May 11, 2022)

Well fingers crossed - wife is about to have the final round of interviews for a job to be a programmer for Orbex (the company making shuttles).


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## Robert Zwilling (May 12, 2022)

Inside the space hotel scheduled to open in 2025
Instead of building it and people will show up, it looks like the scenario here is announce it, people will buy in to it, then it gets built.
The company, Orbital Assembly Corporation, is advertising that they will have a small space hotel in operation by 2025. It will be 60 rooms and accommodate 27 people. The big hotel is scheduled to open in 2027 and will hold 400 people. The artificial gravity system has not been built yet, it is in the planning stages only, no real idea if it will work as planned. It looks like fixing all the bugs in the small hotel will supply the plans for building the big hotel. The gravity on the smaller hotel would be be much less powerful than on the big hotel.


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## Dan Jones (May 12, 2022)

Robert Zwilling said:


> Inside the space hotel scheduled to open in 2025
> Instead of building it and people will show up, it looks like the scenario here is announce it, people will buy in to it, then it gets built.
> The company, Orbital Assembly Corporation, is advertising that they will have a small space hotel in operation by 2025. It will be 60 rooms and accommodate 27 people. The big hotel is scheduled to open in 2027 and will hold 400 people. The artificial gravity system has not been built yet, it is in the planning stages only, no real idea if it will work as planned. It looks like fixing all the bugs in the small hotel will supply the plans for building the big hotel. The gravity on the smaller hotel would be be much less powerful than on the big hotel.


That looks very cool, but I'll be gobsmacked if they manage to build that by 2027 (the article states 2027, not 2025). Maybe 2030s?


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## Christine Wheelwright (May 12, 2022)

Robert Zwilling said:


> Inside the space hotel scheduled to open in 2025
> Instead of building it and people will show up, it looks like the scenario here is announce it, people will buy in to it, then it gets built.
> The company, Orbital Assembly Corporation, is advertising that they will have a small space hotel in operation by 2025. It will be 60 rooms and accommodate 27 people. The big hotel is scheduled to open in 2027 and will hold 400 people. The artificial gravity system has not been built yet, it is in the planning stages only, no real idea if it will work as planned. It looks like fixing all the bugs in the small hotel will supply the plans for building the big hotel. The gravity on the smaller hotel would be be much less powerful than on the big hotel.


Robert, I hope you won't think I'm being rude, but this is complete nonsense!  I can assure you that these people have absolutely no idea how to build a hotel in space by 2027.  Likely they are putting all their money into graphics to demonstrate their fantasy, trying to get people excited and grab some attention.  Sometimes these people are scammers and sometimes fantasists who actually believe their own hype.  I have no idea.

Bear in mind that car manufacturers are already well into development of models that will be on the roads in 2027.  If you plan to have a decent size ship operating by 2027 then you would need to be well down the design and procurement route by now (_at least_ a couple of years into it).


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## Robert Zwilling (May 12, 2022)

Yes, I realize all that. I saw the "trailer" from this company on the news like it was going to happen tomorrow. Yeah, right. Reminded me of the Disney animations back in the 60's where it was presented as if living in space was just around the corner. Looks more like a blatant attempt to raise money in order to do it in the first place. I guess people would be buying tickets with no set date to use it. The article seemed to be saying that the small hotel would be a fun place to go to because the artificial gravity wasn't going to keep you on your feet. The big hotel is oll2027, would you believe 2037 as Maxwell Smart used to say. The little hotel is just (drum roll) 3 years away, which is 2025.

I looked up what other countries were up to as far as planning on building in space. The Chinese have plans for a solar power station in geosynchronous orbit that would beam power back to Earth. They figure it will take 100 payloads to get their equipment up into space. The US has the same kind of scenario with the same estimate of 100 payloads. I don't even think there is a practical set up built that will wirelessly transmit power over long distances. Maybe someone did end up with Telsa's notes on how to stop the beam from diverging as it goes through the atmosphere.

If getting the stuff into space is the bottleneck, I guess we won't have long to see if Musk is all talk about shipping stuff into space on his space cargo ships. It sure seams like people will try to start building stuff in space sooner rather than later, using other people's money and lives. Maybe it is just another way of getting people to invest in things that are still a long way off. The US has a space navy with no ships, but a wonderful benefits set up, including a retirement package. I think there were a lot of failed efforts to colonize far off countries when Europe first started outfitting ships to make the long ocean trips to the newly discovered lands. This could be the same thing all over again. Except this time around, we will be able to see the people disappear instead of just losing contact with them.


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## Christine Wheelwright (May 12, 2022)

I think my all time favorite space scam was that outfit a few years ago who declared they were going to Mars.  I can't remember what they called themselves.  Instead of taking the obvious approach (hiring 3,000 skilled engineers across various disciplines, investing an initial $10B and working for 30 years on developing and testing the required spacecraft and associated tech) they decided the most urgent thing was to hold a competition to recruit some young astronauts.  And they were taken seriously!


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