# Does Rewilding have to include wolves?



## Montero (May 25, 2021)

Interesting overview article on rewilding from The Conversation - who have turned into my go-to scientific reading. All articles by experts and written for both accuracy and approachability.








						Rewilding: four tips to let nature thrive
					

By studying where rewilding has worked well around the world, we’ve worked out the dos and don'ts.




					theconversation.com


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## Dave (May 25, 2021)

From what I have read, the term _Rewilding _means many different things to many different people. If it means turning over intensively farmed land to less intensively farmed land, or not farmed at all land, then I'm all for it. However, your article says it means "Instead of managing ecosystems to preserve particular species, rewilding is intended to reverse environmental decline by letting nature become more self-willed".

Some people think that you just leave it all alone and (in the UK) it all goes back to how it was before man cut down the Oak and Beech forests. That isn't how it works at all. (I'd like to see a proper study of the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone as that is exactly what has happened there.) 

When you leave land alone, you won't necessarily get the native plants and animals back again. You are much more likely to see invasive species take over, whether they are native or not. In the UK, we would have invasive plants like Japanese Knotweed, Himalayan Balsam, Giant Hogweed and Green Alkanet completely taking over. Sometimes the non-native flora will support native fauna, but quite often they are a disaster i.e. Himalayan Balsam dies back in winter exposing bare soil which is then washed away. Non-native flora do not support the same number of native species. The number of insect species supported by an Oak tree is astonishing when compared to other species, but they also take much longer to grow - 50 years before an Oak becomes mature. You would be much more likely to see self-seeded Sycamores taking over.






So, it requires management - the removal of some species to allow others to grow and the planting of trees. This is pretty much how things work everywhere now - we wouldn't have any nature reserves of acid grassland, heather-based heathland, chalk grassland and various marshes between pure freshwater and pure saltwater, if it wasn't for the very firm hand of man upon them. So, I don't know how _Rewilding_ as a concept could be any different and work.



> *Does Rewilding have to include wolves?*​



Just as you wouldn't necessarily see native plants and would see the most competitive plants take over, you would see the same with animals. it would be Grey Squirrels not Red Squirrels, Ring Necked Parakeets rather than Woodpeckers, and it would be lots and lots of Rabbits! Deer would be a particular problem because they eat all the vegetation including tree saplings. We have six types of deer in the UK (only the Red Deer are actually native). If we aren't going to shoot the deer and manage the population like they do in Richmond Park, then their population would quickly grow out of control. So, the Wolves are a necessary missing predator to keep down numbers of herbivores like deer. Chernobyl seems completely overrun with deer whenever there is a TV documentary.

Personally though, and where I agree with the article, is that we should start at the bottom up rather than top down. If you have healthy soils and rivers then the ecosystem is likely to be healthy, since the larger species feed upon the smaller. To do that means keeping people and their dogs well away from it. When even the streams in the Scottish Highland are polluted with pesticides from the flea collars of people walking dogs, who go swimming in the rivers, what chance have invertebrates got around our towns and cities, with industrial pollution and farm fertiliser run-off?

I'm camping next month in the _Knepp Castle Estate _wildland. That is a rewilding experiment on a 3,500 acre estate just south of Horsham, West Sussex. So, I'm going to be quite interested in how that is managed and how it is working out, because people and dogs are allowed to camp and glamp in the wilderness, and it is heavily used by walkers, cyclists and jeep safaris. Which is pretty much the complete opposite of what I would have expected. I'll let you know.


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## CupofJoe (May 26, 2021)

Dave said:


> I'm camping next month in the _Knepp Castle Estate _wildland. That is a rewilding experiment on a 3,500 acre estate just south of Horsham, West Sussex. So, I'm going to be quite interested in how that is managed and how it is working out, because people and dogs are allowed to camp and glamp in the wilderness, and it is heavily used by walkers, cyclists and jeep safaris. Which is pretty much the complete opposite of what I would have expected. I'll let you know.


Wolves in West Sussex? NOW, there is an idea I can get behind!!!


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## Montero (May 26, 2021)

I read Re-Wilding by Isabella Tree regarding Knepp so will be very interested to hear of your experience @Dave. Hadn't heard that about flea collars on dogs. Oh dear, all the thoughtless pollution that happens thanks to lack of joined up thinking. Needs (another) regulation on what is allowed on flea collars. There is of course a similar problem from sheep drenches as they can affect aquatic wildlife if flushed away, though there is now a move afoot to work on sheep developing immunity to worms and fluke, and only treating those that need it rather than blanketing the whole flock.

Interesting points on what will re-wild. The article was emphasising not re-planting, especially with imported trees - as in locally appropriate varieties that weren't grown locally. I wonder if allowing re-seeding by nature and then weeding out what is not native is an alternative method.

Regarding deer, it is possible to shoot long lasting pellets of contraceptives into the females, and control the birth rate that way, which I much prefer to culling. They do form friendships inside the herd and have emotions, so the less that is disrupted, the better I like it.


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## Dave (May 26, 2021)

Montero said:


> I wonder if allowing re-seeding by nature and then weeding out what is not native is an alternative method.


Yes, but that is land "management". Maybe I have the wrong idea about re-wilding but from what I've read (no books, mainly on social media) people think it is a "hands-off" approach and nature should be just left to do its own thing. As I say, there isn't anywhere (outside of a real wilderness) where land is not managed to keep it as it is.

I think I'm going to have to read something about the re-wilding concept and its origins.


Montero said:


> Regarding deer, it is possible to shoot long lasting pellets of contraceptives into the females, and control the birth rate that way, which I much prefer to culling. They do form friendships inside the herd and have emotions, so the less that is disrupted, the better I like it.


The older male deer need to die somehow. Otherwise, the young healthy bucks never get a chance to sire offspring. That then leads to inbreeding and genetic abnormalities are more likely,  and a more unhealthy population. Ultimately, that population would fail. If death of the old males happens by natural selection it is best, but without any predators then the only alternative is a selective and managed culling.


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## CupofJoe (May 26, 2021)

One issue I have with anything that wants to go back the a more natural/traditional state is... 
Where/When do you draw the line?
Is it the introduction of Industrialisation and urbanisation?
The Agricultural revolution?
The Middle ages? The Normans? The Romans? 
The land bride to Europe?


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## Montero (May 26, 2021)

Er, OK, I wouldn't combine the terms natural and traditional - as the second one is a social construct - and OK, yes there are also opinions on different flavours of natural but traditional to me is the thornier of the two. Some people do dream of a more traditional time - I don't. What I dream of is one where wildlife is given space and there isn't a vast use of chemicals and there isn't the automatic assumption that newer is always better - sometimes older "traditional" methods work better in certain circumstances.
Sometimes there are advantages to older methods for example like using a scythe instead of a brushcutter - no petrol fumes, no protective gear, no white finger, no loud noise and you get good exercise - and speaking as someone who has used both, a well sharpened, competently used scythe can actually be quicker than a brushcutter when you are scything weeds that aren't twiggy - and that includes bracken. (You do need to run a whetstone down the scythe regularly while you are out using it.)
Another example is the use of horses for bringing timber out on a steep slope - Horse logging - the horse does better than any machinery.
Or using goats or primitive sheep for weed control in hard to access areas - see Bagot Goats re-introduced to Cromer Cliff.

It's worth going to see what Knepp achieved with their version of re-wilding - which actually made the estate financially viable when before it was losing money even though using the latest modern methods and machines. What they found was that for their land, which was OK farming land but not top grade, modern methods didn't work as well as older methods - in part because of the vast cost of buying and running the modern machinery (new large tractors start at £50,000 the last time I looked at prices).



			https://knepp.co.uk/
		


One of their big successes is nightingales are now breeding and singing there. My parents used to talk about hearing nightingales sing. One house we moved into in the mid-seventies was near woodland. And the vendors sadly talked about nightingale valley in the woodland and how it used to ring with song and now there were no nightingales at all - due to pesticides. I have heard a nightingale once in my life - it was perched in a bush by a lamp-post in a sea-side town and singing its little heart out, not bothered by the crowd of people who gathered to hear it. When time permits, I'd love to take a trip to Knepp, at a time of year when I could hear nightingales sing. Even more, I'd love to make nightingales common across the UK again.

So my answer on where the line is drawn is "as suits the circumstances". Pick and mix as appropriate.

@Dave - I'd read Isabella Tree's book on Rewilding Knepp before you go there, if you have the time. A lovely mix of information, and stories.
Regarding deer - OK, culling older males as being the ones who the wolves would have got does make sense. I do also think that contraceptives on the younger females when you have excess population at all ages is the kinder way to go to control the younger population. I think it was on SFF quite recently that there was a comment regarding the big estates in Scotland feeding hay to the deer over winter because they make money from deer shooting so obviously want more deer.


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## CupofJoe (May 26, 2021)

I was deliberately conflating the two terms because I think a lot of people do.
If the process is about using fewer chemicals [and less of them] in the environment and using the best most sustainable forms of production then I'm all for it.
But for some [both pro and con rewilding] there seems to be a tone of returning to some unspecified "natural" world... without defining what that really means.
If they want to burn out all the rhododendrons in North Wales to rewild the valleys... Then hand me a flame thrower!


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## Montero (May 26, 2021)

Oh yeah, I think there is a lot of woolly thinking - especially from people who've never trodden in a cow pat. Also an awful lot of people seem to think there has to be one true solution - like everywhere would be better off as returning to 1623 or some other year of your choice.
To my mind the ideal is getting as much wildlife habitat as you can, both in large areas and squeezed into the little places and it doesn't all have to be the same. There is a project I know in a nearby town where they are scraping the grass off public verges and resowing with wild flower mix and have also done a big area of grass in the school grounds, where the kids get to see it every day and can see all the poppies, ox-eye daisies and the like and the butterflies feeding off them. Getting a lot more wildlife into towns and cities helps both wildlife and people - and with luck and work can be used to educate people unfamiliar with wildlife into better ways to behave in the countryside. Gradually eroding the mindset that everything has to be neat and tidy would be helpful. Reducing all the mad strimmering, leaf blowing and weed spraying would be helpful both in terms of chemicals, fossil fuel use and habitat enrichment.
The other year we had a developer offer as a bonus to tidy up a "nasty messy area" of very biodiverse scrub which had a bird hide overlooking it because it was a hot spot for rare birds. He was very taken aback when the locals showed him their lack of appreciation of his kind offer (and in general saw him off.)
World War 2 lead to a lot of destruction of habitat in the countryside with drainage - there was a lot of work ditching and draining fields to bring them up to a level that could grow crops rather than be just seasonal grazing - and returning some of them to boggy places and seasonal grazing would increase the biodiversity in those patches.
I'd like to see larger wilder areas as well.
You might find EO Wilson's half earth project of interest. He is a very distinguished biologist and the gist of what he is saying, is that in large areas of Europe, the countryside has been depopulated by people leaving for the cities and it is far wilder than it was a generation ago. So the theory goes that if most people want to live in cities, it might be possible to turn half the world back to being basically wilderness areas, or at least wildlife rich. Part of what the foundation does, is identify where it would be good for these areas to be, both in terms of convenience for people, for the areas to join up into wildlife corridors and in terms of existing biodiversity.








						Half-Earth Project - E.O. Wilson Biodiversity Foundation
					

The Half-Earth Project, from the E.O. Wilson Biodiversity Foundation, is working to conserve half the land & sea to safeguard the bulk of biodiversity.




					www.half-earthproject.org


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## HareBrain (May 26, 2021)

Montero said:


> I have heard a nightingale once in my life - it was perched in a bush by a lamp-post in a sea-side town and singing its little heart out, not bothered by the crowd of people who gathered to hear it. When time permits, I'd love to take a trip to Knepp, at a time of year when I could hear nightingales sing. Even more, I'd love to make nightingales common across the UK again.



I recently saw/heard four different ones in a half-hour period in a patch of ancient woodland and disused farmland near here, and someone else heard three at another nature reserve a few miles distant. It is largely a question of habitat.

I don't think I'll ever better the magic of my first experience, though, staggering home from uni to my lodgings along a dark, deserted road at two in the morning and unexpectedly hearing two singing from woods bordering the road. Somehow in daylight they just don't sound the same.


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## Dave (May 26, 2021)

Montero said:


> It's worth going to see what Knepp achieved with their version of re-wilding - which actually made the estate financially viable when before it was losing money even though using the latest modern methods and machines. What they found was that for their land, which was OK farming land but not top grade, modern methods didn't work as well as older methods - in part because of the vast cost of buying and running the modern machinery (new large tractors start at £50,000 the last time I looked at prices).
> 
> https://knepp.co.uk/


It's interesting that the Knepp estate call it "Wilding" rather than "Re-wilding" and that they do manage the land quite heavily. Apparently, they wanted to do things like leave animal carcases in-situ after death but that there are laws preventing doing this.


Montero said:


> I'd read Isabella Tree's book on Rewilding Knepp before you go there, if you have the time. A lovely mix of information, and stories.


You're the second person today who has told me I need to read the book _Wilding_ before I go, but unfortunately I don't think I have enough time.


Montero said:


> You might find EO Wilson's half earth project of interest. He is a very distinguished biologist and the gist of what he is saying, is that in large areas of Europe, the countryside has been depopulated by people leaving for the cities and it is far wilder than it was a generation ago.


I've heard of him. He is the originator of the Biophilia Hypothesis - according to his theory, there is an innate and genetically determined affinity of human beings with the natural world.

As for nature taking over depopulated areas, you don't need to go far in the UK to see this. There are old roman towns and forts where nature has completely taken over, like Bremenium and there are old roman/medieval lead mining workings like those around Allenheads · Hexham or Castleton
These places were the industrial centres of England once and now we think of them as being completely natural. Most people don't even notice the stone walls or the mining spoil.


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## Montero (May 26, 2021)

Yeah, it came as a shock to me years back on a family holiday on Dartmoor. I'd got several history books on the area from the library, and part way into my visit read that the little lumpy hummocks all along a stream were panning and mining spoil. It was probably tin not gold, but the memory of the metal has faded.

Huh, not heard of the Biophilia Hypothesis, must go and read it. I think it is probably stronger in some people than others...... (once knew someone who screamed if they thought a worm was near...)

Yes, Knepp does say wilding rather than re-wilding. Yes they did want to leave out carcasses but the law didn't allow for it. It is allowed in high places - can't remember the height above sea level, but up basically on some high moorland you can leave out carcasses for scavengers, rather than having to drag them off to a slaughterhouse for burning/processing and be charged for it.


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## AlexH (May 26, 2021)

I find rewilding attempts in the UK I've seen pretty sad, as it only tends to happen for humans' benefit. Like reintroducing a beaver somewhere - just one beaver - in an attempt to reduce flooding. It's a huge event, there's so much red tape and costs before it can happen, and secure fences have to be erected to ensure the beaver can't leave where it's supposed to be. In the long run it's good, and it's good these baby steps are being taken, but why does everything have to be for our benefit - to make money or save money down the line? Why not just do it because it's the right thing to do after we've destroyed so much? Why do the benefits have to be justified down to every detail?

The amount of times a kind of rewilding or conservation effort goes wrong is funny/depressing too - like a couple of places I remember where trees were planted yet the meadows were supposed to be protected because of their rare grasses and wildlife.

Anyway, apologies for the rant. It's just the way the world works I suppose.

On the positive side, I saw a farmer in Cornwall who is forward-thinking (and I imagine he's not the only one). I think this is the guy - his sheep enjoy woodland as well as what have become the traditional fields: https://twitter.com/cornishgrill - it's the kind of situation I can see rewilding working alongside farmers and rural communities.

And did you see this study on Chernobyl wildlife @Dave? Efficiency and composition of vertebrate scavengers at the land-water interface in the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone


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## Dave (May 26, 2021)

AlexH said:


> And did you see this study on Chernobyl wildlife


No, I haven't, thanks. There must be more scientific studies, it is an extraordinary opportunity to see some place that has been completely exited by man.

There was a recent Channel 5 documentary with Ben Fogel but he seemed much more interested in the empty buildings and the reactor than the countryside.

I have found this documentary on YouTube but the hilarious comments on it left there indicate that it probably isn't very good.


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## Montero (May 26, 2021)

@AlexH Yup on always having to justify the benefits to humans. I think there is a growing number of people who care about things being of benefit to wildlife without direct benefit to humans - but how many is another matter.
Reminds me of the book "Running with the Fox" which was a very interesting account of a study of fox behaviour by an Oxford Uni naturalist, and he did various things, including a captive study of a fox group in an enclosure put together in an old tennis court - several tennis court sized I think and overgrown, so shrubbery - it was the tall fence was part of the point. There were plenty of notices up about don't disturb the animals, study under way, but some passers by on a foot path seemed to think it was a zoo and would shake the fence and complain they couldn't see anything. Sigh.

Cornishgrill guy - loved his comment about him being happy with the deer eating willow shoot as they have a right to be there too. 
Also regarding the mixed pasture and coppice for sheep - the RBST did a study several years back that showed that animals did better with some shelter - as in trees for shade, and hedges/scrub to get out of the wind. (Shouldn't have taken a study for that.) Better for the farmer too as if not getting chilled, they put on more weight. I once saw a wide open field on a hot day, with a row of sheep sitting nose to tail in the only shade available - the shadow of a telegraph pole. It only shaded about a third of the width of a sheep. So sorry for them. There was also an article about testing mixed grazing as helping to prevent worms and fluke - so not pure grass grazing, but having all the weeds/wildflowers still in the mix and some of those have a vermifuge property. (I get a bit exasperated by modern grazing - lots of effort and chemicals expended on creating a lush pure grass pasture, and some people announcing how sheep eat only grass - and that may be true of the big modern commercial breeds - but they do also suffer from bloat (major stomach upset that can kill them) and primitive sheep can eat all sorts plus rarely get bloat.)


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## AlexH (May 26, 2021)

The reintroduction of various birds has been a success:








						3 Birds That Were Once Extinct in the United Kingdom but have Successfully Come Back
					

Ospreys, white-tailed eagles and white storks were all once extinct in England, Wales and Scotland but have now returned. Here's where you can spot them.




					www.wanderlust.co.uk


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## Montero (May 27, 2021)

Huh, wow, thanks @AlexH.
Are you aware of how well Red Kites have made a comeback following their introduction to the Chilterns?
I used to live in Berkshire and way back in the early 90s a bird watcher friend went on a special trip to Wales in the hope of seeing a red kite. In 2017 I saw a red kite flying over Reading and did a search and found they were now quite common, having spread out from the Chilterns via the road corridors, cleaning up road kill. In the Medieval period they were noted for cleaning up and scavaging and were always around towns.
Here is an article from 2011








						Red kites soar in population around urban Reading
					

A rise in the number of urban red kites in Berkshire leads scientists to research whether people are feeding them in the garden.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Dave (May 27, 2021)

They've also released Red Kites where my sister lives. There is a Red Kite Trail there. I walked that with her once, and we did see some (there are several good vantage points) but not a huge number. Returned back to her house and there was one flying above her back garden!


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## HareBrain (May 27, 2021)

Montero said:


> I used to live in Berkshire and way back in the early 90s a bird watcher friend went on a special trip to Wales in the hope of seeing a red kit.



In the 80s I made my parents take me and my brother on holiday to mid Wales in hope of seeing one. (We didn't.)

In the 90s I went back there volunteering on the RSPB, and had my best-ever sighting of one, being mobbed by two ravens in beautiful Welsh countryside. (I've since put that in a book.)

There was something in the paper in the last couple of days about how they're getting like Brighton herring gulls in places, stealing food from people's hands. The report said this was because people were feeding them to get photos, but I gather they also used to do this in London way before photography was invented.


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## Montero (May 27, 2021)

It does seem that in terms of increasing wildlife, in most places birds - and probably flowers and butterflies are a no-brainer. It's everything else that can be contentious.
Well, if the UK does manage to increase plant, insect and bird diversity, with amphibians and lizards tagging along, that would be a lot better than nothing. Can probably add on hedgehogs while we're at it.


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## Dave (May 27, 2021)

Montero said:


> It's everything else that can be contentious.


There is a lot of misinformation about - few people (if any at all recently) have been bitten by an Adder. Plenty of dogs have been, but you have to seriously mess around with them for them to bite. They really just want to slither away and hide as soon as possible. That doesn't make a very good newspaper headline though. "Wild Bird attacks Cat" will sell more newspapers than "Cat attacks Wild Bird".


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## AnyaKimlin (May 27, 2021)

Where is our predator?

Humans are the biggest threat to any eco system but in Scotland we are the deer's only predator and we complain when they eat a few trees (as opposed to humans completely deforesting part of the world).  We need to be talking about all creatures and benefitting everyone not just humans.

I have no problem with us bringing wolves back, they're currently at the wildlife park along with elk.  

We do need a more eco centric approach to this and it needs to be more than just scientific.  Without massive cultural changes it's not going to work.  Our local council is trying not to cut the grass so now we have guerrilla grass cutters.


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## Montero (May 27, 2021)

AnyaKimlin said:


> We do need a more eco centric approach to this and it needs to be more than just scientific.  Without massive cultural changes it's not going to work.  Our local council is trying not to cut the grass so now we have guerrilla grass cutters.


Eyeroll. Some people.
The scheme I've seen of planting drifts of wild flowers at the local school is the kind of thing that will help change the next generation of adults.

Regarding current verges it probably needs a leafletting campaign and regular notices on sticks in the verge along the lines of "This verge is let to grow for the wildlife. Please don't cut it." Though that does need to include making sure there are no brambles sticking out to get in the face of cyclists.
Notices and leaflets will stop some people, who'd assumed there was no reason other than council cuts or laziness, but won't stop all.
Friends of ours let their front garden go to teasles and thistles, and had tons of small finches coming by for a snack. Complaints from the neighbour, but of the loud remarks over the hedge variety, rather than an actual conversation. Then one night, while a bit tiddled, he got out his strimmer and started on levelling the weeds in their garden. Our friend did catch up with him and stop him and next day explained all about the birds and the guy did actually back off. Possibly guilt from what he knew could get him sued.

I do like your Ego vs Eco jpg. Is it free to copy and use?

I agree we should be talking about benefiting all creatures. But I suspect to get cultural change, some of it will need to be bottom up steps, the birds, bees, flowers and butterflies, with the frogs and hedgehogs and fungi in there too, getting people used to the idea of being considerate towards and valuing non-threatening nature and expanding that towards the less instantly appealing parts of the ecosystem.
There also needs to be education about how animals really are, and are not dangerous. Not the myths, but the reality.
For example there is ongoing work to help urban Indians live alongside the leopards strolling into their towns and cities.








						Living with leopards
					

Carnivore, conflicts, and conservation in the Anamalai hills




					www.ncf-india.org
				



And there is this older blog article on how rural Indians are pretty good at living alongside wildlife, but urbanites have forgotten how.


			https://www.conservationindia.org/articles/living-with-leopards-outside-protected-areas-in-india
		



I rather like this quote from Richard Conniff
“Wildlife is and should be useless in the same way art, music, poetry and even sports are useless. They are useless in the sense that they do nothing more than raise our spirits, make us laugh or cry, frighten, disturb and delight us. They connect us not just to what’s weird, different, other, but to a world where we humans do not matter nearly as much as we like to think.
And that should be enough.”
Possibly still a little more ego than eco, to discuss their importance in relation to humanity, but a good statement to counter the everything has to be useful crowd.


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## AlexH (May 28, 2021)

Dave said:


> There is a lot of misinformation about - few people (if any at all recently) have been bitten by an Adder. Plenty of dogs have been, but you have to seriously mess around with them for them to bite. They really just want to slither away and hide as soon as possible. That doesn't make a very good newspaper headline though. "Wild Bird attacks Cat" will sell more newspapers than "Cat attacks Wild Bird".


Sadly the tabloids love encouraging that kind of misinformation. I remember seeing a headline something like "Killer fox attacks baby." It wasn't a killer fox; it bit a baby. The baby had to go to hospital and was okay.


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## AlexH (May 28, 2021)

"Planting a tree in the city can cost tens of thousands of pounds and calculating whether it's a valuable use of money is difficult."

The process of "retrofitting trees" (not a phrase I thought I'd read) in cities:








						BBC Radio 5 Live - Nihal Arthanayake - How hard is it to plant a tree in a city centre?
					

A look at the difficulties in planting a tree in the middle of a town centre




					www.bbc.co.uk


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## HareBrain (May 28, 2021)

AlexH said:


> "Planting a tree in the city can cost tens of thousands of pounds and calculating whether it's a valuable use of money is difficult."



How many buddleia are equivalent to one tree? I can plant those for a hundred each. (Overheads, you see.)


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## Dave (May 28, 2021)

There are trees that are more suited to city streets. They may not be native but they are ornamental and still give a lot of the benefits that any tree does in an urban environment. Buddleia would count. 

But don't get me started on street trees. It's too political for this forum in any case, but I wish they would concentrate on keeping the mature street trees we ALREADY have rather than cutting them down.


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## Montero (May 28, 2021)

HareBrain said:


> How many buddleia are equivalent to one tree? I can plant those for a hundred each. (Overheads, you see.)


Overheads being the ones growing out of chimney stacks?


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## Montero (May 29, 2021)

Which all puts me in mind of green roofs. I think they only work on flat or very shallow slope, but it would make a massive difference if the roof of every building was turned into a green space. Really not sure how you'd achieve that on a slate pitched roof, but I am sure there are alpine turfed pitched roofs with goats grazing on them.
Now there is a thought for your average suburban terrace - goats grazing on the roof. Or even cows. Come out your front door in the morning and it won't be a bird that poops on you.


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## CupofJoe (May 29, 2021)

There is a building not too far from me where they have "terraced" their sloping tiled roof by adding what looks like window boxes or small planters. The last time I drove past [admittedly 2 years ago] it was a riot of different colours.
The occasional precipitation of goat poo I could probably get used to. But cowpats from above? It's a no from me...


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## Montero (May 29, 2021)

I was not being entirely serious......
And you need to picture one of those massive swiss chalets with the massive pitched roof covering several storeys with the eaves down near to ground level.
Though the possibility of a ballistic cow pat from three storeys up is not totally ruled out.
The idea of a cow on the roof a modern UK terraced house ....... if the cow pat was bad, imagine a ton of cow slipping off.


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## AnyaKimlin (May 30, 2021)

Australia and Asia (particularly India) appear to be leading in how literature/our writings play a part in rewilding and improving the environment. There are schools of Environmental Humanities.  The idea being that without the humanities we won't engage enough people with the science. These lectures are a bit dry but really interesting:


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## Montero (May 30, 2021)

Like the concept, will go watch soon (no brain this weekend - it went on holiday)


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## Parson (May 31, 2021)

Montero said:


> Like the concept, will go watch soon (no brain this weekend - it went on holiday)


Hopefully you went with it and had a fun time.


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## Dave (May 31, 2021)

Montero said:


> no brain this weekend - it went on holiday





Parson said:


> Hopefully you went with it and had a fun time.


There was finally some sunshine in the UK yesterday - after what seemed like a whole month of continuous and persistent rain. Everyone has lost it!


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## AnyaKimlin (May 31, 2021)

Montero said:


> Like the concept, will go watch soon (no brain this weekend - it went on holiday)


yeah it's definitely not holiday chill stuff lol

Hope it had a good weekend.


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## Dave (Jun 10, 2021)

So, I'm back from Knepp Castle Estate and said I would report my findings. 

What they've done mainly is create a lot of scrub and ponds - both quite rare in the UK as people find scrub agriculturally unproductive, and think it looks untidy, but it is great for many species that have now become rare. So, they have the extremely elusive purple emperor butterflies that feed on sallow trees. Too elusive for me to see however. I heard cuckoos and nightingales but didn't see them either. There were many, many other birds though, but Mrs. Dave is the expert on birdsong. They have re-introduced storks, which were nesting with chicks, and could be seen soaring overhead like tetradactyls. They have permission to re-introduce beavers now. 

They have longhorn cattle, Tamworth pigs, and horses roaming wild, together with Roe and Fallow deer, and it is this natural grazing by these large mammals that makes the difference there. The pigs rut in the ground and the others make pastures between the scrub, all of which is now very unusual as a landscape in the UK. It seems very unusual to see free-roaming farm animals; piglets just appearing out of the hedgerows. I saw a grass snake swimming and trying unsuccessfully to catch mating dragonflies.

People and dogs are very strictly kept away from most of the land; kept on the various walks (where dogs must be on a lead) and on the public footpaths that cross through. The longest circular walk is about 7 miles. There are two pubs within walking distance. I really enjoyed the walks and the camping. Dark skies, extremely quiet (except from the bird's morning chorus) and very peaceful. You can sometimes hear traffic from the A24. If the wild camping sounds too uncomfortable, there are Yurts and Shepherd's huts with proper beds. The shop sells meat from the estate that you can barbecue by the tents. There is also wild swimming in a very murky lake. I passed on that as I have tried it before. The facilities are basic but clean. The kitchen had a Pizza oven. There are jeep safaris and outdoor Yoga (all fully booked up, long in advance).

The estate is certainly still managed, and isn't a hands-taken-off-the-rudder experiment at all. I saw trees cut, but not removed; left to make shelter for small animals. There is a lot of water management in evidence. They have removed some old Victorian canals (like much of this region there was a lot of iron mining and smelting here in the past) and let the river Adur flow more normally. They are lucky that the land also has many existing small woods and some very old oak trees. Some of these now have large tree houses that can be visited for a more panoramic view. 

They also seem to have had a lot of input of ideas from various ecologists, and appear to have experimented with trying out other things to see what worked and what didn't. I don't know how they control the rabbits, because there are no wolves or large predators, but I've bought the book to read. Not sure when I will get around to reading it though.


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## Montero (Jun 10, 2021)

Thank you for that report. Very interesting and glad to hear it is as I pictured. Sounds like you had a good time.

Regarding rabbits - we are really rural and have very few. There are roving farm cats passing through, and foxes, and we see the odd poor rabbit with running eyes presumably from myxomatosis. Regularly see rabbit remains - tufts of fur across the grass. At the moment I see one rabbit roughly every other day.

Edited to add - the free range pigs might be catching rabbits - they are omnivores. There is a brilliant bit in the book about her being very startled one day at a sudden eruption of bubbles in a pond she was passing and an adult pig surfaced with a freshwater clam in its mouth.


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## hitmouse (Jun 11, 2021)

Rabbits are also predated by foxes, weasels, stoats.


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## Dave (Jun 11, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Rabbits are also predated by foxes, weasels, stoats.


We didn't see any of those while there. That doesn't mean that aren't there, probably in huge numbers. However, we did joke about the lack of Foxes, saying that they've all moved to the suburbs. Foxes in the suburbs raid food waste bins (they know how to open them) and don't seem fearful of man. Those in the countryside are probably still more shy and wily.


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## CupofJoe (Jun 11, 2021)

Dave said:


> We didn't see any of those while there. That doesn't mean that aren't there, probably in huge numbers. However, we did joke about the lack of Foxes, saying that they've all moved to the suburbs. Foxes in the suburbs raid food waste bins (they know how to open them) and don't seem fearful of man. Those in the countryside are probably still more shy and wily.


And are somewhat larger than their country cousins I read a while back...


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## hitmouse (Jun 11, 2021)

I was sitting quietly in a field the other week having a cup of tea, and I saw a stoat moving through the hedgerow. Haven't seen a wild one for years. Probably only seen a weasel, for a second, once. Hard to spot but lots of them around.


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## Dave (Jun 11, 2021)

I saw a stoat a few weeks ago on the Polesden Lacey estate.  To be perfectly honest, the group of us were talking so loudly when we were walking in Knepp that I'm surprised we saw anything at all. Generally, I now try to practise what I'm christening 'mindful walking' - walking more slowly and quietly, with no rush, looking up in trees and also down at the ground, along gaps between foliage, and at sunny ant hills where there may be reptiles sunning themselves. Too many people are walking, running and cycling at break-neck speeds in order to build-up that statutory number of 'steps' that their Apple watch or Fitbit insists they reach for the day, that they can't possibly appreciate the beauty they are passing through and missing.


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## AnyaKimlin (Jun 11, 2021)

Dave said:


> We didn't see any of those while there. That doesn't mean that aren't there, probably in huge numbers. However, we did joke about the lack of Foxes, saying that they've all moved to the suburbs. Foxes in the suburbs raid food waste bins (they know how to open them) and don't seem fearful of man. Those in the countryside are probably still more shy and wily.



I've lived in rural area for over thirty years and I have seen one fox in that time and it was dead by the side of the road. I've seen way more deer, badgers, bunnies.  We know there are foxes because my friend lost chickens to them.


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## hitmouse (Jun 11, 2021)

Dave said:


> I saw a stoat a few weeks ago on the Polesden Lacey estate.  To be perfectly honest, the group of us were talking so loudly when we were walking in Knepp that I'm surprised we saw anything at all. Generally, I now try to practise what I'm christening 'mindful walking' - walking more slowly and quietly, with no rush, looking up in trees and also down at the ground, along gaps between foliage, and at sunny ant hills where there may be reptiles sunning themselves. Too many people are walking, running and cycling at break-neck speeds in order to build-up that statutory number of 'steps' that their Apple watch or Fitbit insists they reach for the day, that they can't possibly appreciate the beauty they are passing through and missing.


The thing that really made me look beyond the superficial when outdoors was birdwatching. Started just over 20 years ago, and realised it was not just about birds. It just got me into the habit of looking more deeply at the outdoor environment. Birds interact with the environment, they don't just exist in it.  Understanding the species of trees and hedgerow plants, and how they behave through the seasons has also helped. 
So there is a bit of a zen thing going on, but also some practical ecology.


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## Parson (Jun 11, 2021)

On the "rewilding" front. On my golf course there are a couple of manmade ponds. (filled from wells and used for irrigation) One enterprising member thought these ponds needed "gold fish." --- don't ask --- anyway he put these large (I assume "farmed") fish into one of the ponds last year. They loved being near the inflows and would all pile up there. It wasn't long until a couple (I saw 3) mink moved into another of the ponds and I caught them raiding the gold fish pond. Soon there were no gold fish to be seen in the pond. And the mink seem to have moved on. Last week I hit a ball into the pond (Grrrr!) and I looked in the shallows among the grasses and lo and behold, there were  some small gold fish hiding like a "wild" gold fish would.


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