# Does success breed contempt?



## Brian G Turner (Oct 12, 2022)

Is it the case that the more popular a show/film/author is, the less likely we are to like it? And conversely, that the more niche something is the more likely we'll praise it and hope for others to enjoy it with us?

I remember being dismayed by the Avatar trailer 2 thread, when so many people came into that thread just to trash Avatar. I'm pretty sure the only reason so many people hated it was because it was so successful - if it had bombed at the box office and few people had seen it then I'm sure the same people trashing it would instead have been shouting from the rooftops about its visual effects and production values. 

Thinking on that, wonder if the same Tolkien die-hards who refuse to look at the new TV series would be like that if Tolkien was a little known cult author? In such a situation I suspect the same people would be pleased for any opportunity to get him more attention from the wider public.

Thoughts?


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## HareBrain (Oct 12, 2022)

I suppose there is the fear (which I can't deny I share myself to some extent, with some things) is that if something you deem inferior is very successful, it will be taken as the pattern by other creators, and more stuff with those flaws will get made rather than stuff better suited to your tastes. But I'm not sure what proportion of the hating is down to this.


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## Toby Frost (Oct 12, 2022)

I have a theory about Avatar: it became the acceptable thing to feel superior to. People who would happily buy into a million other, equally stupid, franchises, suddenly had this thing that they could all hate. To be clear, Avatar is banal and not especially great, but it is nowhere near as bad as people like to think it is. If nothing else, it's competent in a way that, say, Prometheus isn't.

Avatar probably also made a mistake in not being ironic enough. Something like Guardians of the Galaxy might as well wear a big sign that says "Yeah, this is a bit dumb, but you know that and I know that, so let's just wink at each other, eh?" Avatar is entirely straight-faced, which makes its stupidity all the more obvious. That's like sticking your head above the parapet. Personally, I like that because it feels honest, but I'm probably in the minority.

I think Tolkien is something of an exception: reading LOTR appears to have been something quite like a religious awakening for some of its fans, who probably first read it in circumstances that couldn't be replicated now (largely thanks to the internet). No other author is venerated to the same degree: not even Shakespeare, who is vastly more important. Think of how much is habitually cut out of Hamlet when it's performed, compared to the fury at not including the Scouring of the Shire in Peter Jackson's films. So I think Tolkien is a slightly different thing. (And to be absolutely clear, I am not saying either that Tolkien is bad or that I have it in for him.)


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## CupofJoe (Oct 12, 2022)

I don’t think success breeds contempt, but I do feel it brings resentment.
I suppose there is a little bit in each of us that likes to go against the grain. Even if it is as small as preferring Pepsi to Coke. We don’t want to go with the flow. We want to be unique, just like everyone else. Again I think we all like to think that we are that tiny bit more enlightened [intelligent, engaged, informed, you pick] as to what is good compared to the next person’s opinion.
The internet just makes everything global and impersonal. Once a post is online and [nearly] anyone has a chance of seeing and reacting to it. Too often people don’t feel the need to self-censor as much as they don’t know these others. When it is just you and your mates down the pub debating Star Wars vs Star Trek for the umpteenth time, you know who will take offence if you try and take down their favourite franchise.


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## Venusian Broon (Oct 12, 2022)

I think there are a lot of factors that can provoke such a reaction Brian.

Sometimes you just see spicy negative comments more than you see positive ones. Causing friction and controversy just seems to generate more views on reviewer comments etc. than wholesome positive ones. I for one feel the pull of 1 star (out of 5) reviews in _Fortean Times, _to read, far more than glowing 5 star ones. So I do think there is an incentive, financial or otherwise, to be contrary. After many decades on t'nternet I hardly feel the need to comment on, in depth, on a well-loved film/book, if all I'm doing is being positive about it as it is highly unlikely to generate a good conversation or viewership.

Then on a more personal level, I think there is a drive in all of us to be 'different from the herd'. Whatever 'herd' means. Many people like being unique and having quirky tastes, (and some genuinely liking obscure and lesser known authors etc. of course!)

And of course some people just enjoy being trolls, whatever lens or viewpoint they are ultimately trying to push.


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## Foxbat (Oct 12, 2022)

On the question of Avatar: I hated it. I also hated Titanic but I loved Aliens and the first two Terminator movies. I also quite like The Abyss.  I just think that Cameron is a hit and miss film maker.  

But, for the diehard Avatar fans.......from Cameron's IMDB page

2028 *Avatar 5* (characters) / (screenplay) (filming) 

2026 *Avatar 4* (characters) (filming)

2023 *True Lies* (TV Series) (characters - 2018) (filming)

2024 *Avatar 3* (characters) / (written by) (post-production)

2022 *Avatar: The Way of Water*


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## Wayne Mack (Oct 12, 2022)

Brian G Turner said:


> Is it the case that the more popular a show/film/author is, the less likely we are to like it? And conversely, that the more niche something is the more likely we'll praise it and hope for others to enjoy it with us?
> 
> I remember being dismayed by the Avatar trailer 2 thread, when so many people came into that thread just to trash Avatar. I'm pretty sure the only reason so many people hated it was because it was so successful - if it had bombed at the box office and few people had seen it then I'm sure the same people trashing it would instead have been shouting from the rooftops about its visual effects and production values.
> 
> ...


I think you're on to something. I feel that sometimes that people take their rejection of something popular as a point of pride and loudly promote those views.


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## Christine Wheelwright (Oct 12, 2022)

Brian, unfortunately I have to disagree.  My opinion of a movie is independent of whether the masses agree.  I thought Avatar was poor.  I love certain popular movies (from Blade Runner to Pulp Fiction; their popularity doesn't put me off).  I think there is some pleasure in discovering a great work that has been largely neglected (I will admit to that).  And maybe some satisfaction in pointing out the deficiencies of something that is widely popular (I will admit that too).  But the popularity of a movie does not affect my opinion of it.


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## Robert Zwilling (Oct 12, 2022)

I think movies can draw negative comments simply because of the message they are trying to get across. Avatar is drawing some negative comments because of its message. Its popularity only makes it a bigger target because it is easier to find. Negative comments about Titanic more than likely come from how the movie was made, how the story was presented. People who aren't into Titanic's story probably don't spend any of their time making negative comments. Some people who aren't into Avatar's message only need to know it has a message they don't appreciate and that's enough to cause them to make a comment. When the ability to publicly comment about anything was granted to everyone, the original intent of critiquing pretty much became only one of many reasons for making one's views known.


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## Fiberglass Cyborg (Oct 12, 2022)

Something went very, very wrong with the way people respond to films after "The Phantom Menace" came out. Suddenly, if you didn't like a film, it was no longer enough to say "well, I'm not watching that again. Next!" Instead you have to grandstand, to stage a whole 5 Minutes Hate every time the film is so much as mentioned, explaining exactly how the film is objectively garbage that has ruined cinema for ever, the people who like it are morons and the people who made it are on a par with Hitler. And you don't get much of a response to a tantrum about a film barely anyone's seen. So, pick a well-known film and make ostentatiously hating it your the core of your identity.


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## Vince W (Oct 12, 2022)

I didn’t like Avatar but then I wasn’t meant to. Cameron aimed that film squarely at preteen boys and did so to great effect. People who waste their time hating it probably secretly like it and don’t want to admit it to themselves. The lady doth protest too much sort of thing.


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## Parson (Oct 12, 2022)

I did like Avatar. But I have to admit that I have become considerably more critical of media after hanging out here for more than a decade. But it also seems to me that the world has become more critical in the past decade or two. Now we all can (to a degree) be heard and make our opinions known, a lot of people like to have the opinions that get noticed. Getting noticed when you are screaming about how horrible something is that is quite popular, is particularly easy to do. And for some of likely quite gratifying.


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## Valtharius (Oct 12, 2022)

I'm such a contrarian that I haven't even seen Avatar.


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## Ray Zdybrow (Oct 12, 2022)

Parson said:


> I did like Avatar. But I have to admit that I have become considerably more critical of media after hanging out here for mare than a decade. But it also seems to me that the world has become more critical in the past decade or two. Now we all can (to a degree) be heard and make our opinions known, a lot of people like to have the opinions that get noticed. Getting noticed when you are screaming about how horrible something is that is quite popular, is particularly easy to do. And for some of likely quite gratifying.


Mea culpa


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## Elckerlyc (Oct 12, 2022)

How un-cool to like something that the ignorant masses likes! You, you know better. That's one reason.
Also, superficially, Avatar looked great, back in 2009. It was the first 3D movie and massively used motion capture techniques. It was groundbreaking and everyone wanted to see it. Originally it had a really high score. Once you pay more attention to the story you see how much of a caricature it is. And scores dropped.
I fear the worst for all those sequels. That might have worked 10 years ago, but not anymore. The audience has meanwhile grown sated with quality movies, in a visual sense. Everything seems technically possible. Storywise is another matter, but good stories sell less well. It's unrealistic, breathtaking action movies people want today, it seems, looking at the success of all the SuperPerson movies. Blegh.


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## paranoid marvin (Oct 12, 2022)

I didn't like Avatar. I found it boring, predictable and far, far too long. I've seen older films that tell a similar story, but much better. But I can also understand why some people would find it entertaining, because it's something a bit different to the norm and is visually spectacular. 

There are times when I form an opinion about a tv series or film before I've even seen it. GoT I dismissed as a LOTR wannabe, so for the first 3 or 4 seasons I completely ignored it, despite many raving about it. Then one day I watched an episode and ended up binge-watching the first season within a couple of days. Same with Breaking Bad - a series about a chemistry teacher making drugs? Who'd want to watch that? Then after the series had had its entire run I watched the first episode and was hooked all the way through.

I think one of the pleasures of watching Red Dwarf when it first aired was being one of the few who actually watched it from episode 1 first time around. Smugness mode was set to maximum when all the rest of my mates suddenly cottoned on to how great it was around episode 3/4, and they had to reply on me to tell them what had gone before.


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## Vince W (Oct 12, 2022)

paranoid marvin said:


> I think one of the pleasures of watching Red Dwarf when it first aired was being one of the few who actually watched it from episode 1 first time around. Smugness mode was set to maximum when all the rest of my mates suddenly cottoned on to how great it was around episode 3/4, and they had to reply on me to tell them what had gone before.


Absolutely true.


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## Swank (Oct 13, 2022)

Brian G Turner said:


> Is it the case that the more popular a show/film/author is, the less likely we are to like it? And conversely, that the more niche something is the more likely we'll praise it and hope for others to enjoy it with us?
> 
> I remember being dismayed by the Avatar trailer 2 thread, when so many people came into that thread just to trash Avatar. I'm pretty sure the only reason so many people hated it was because it was so successful - if it had bombed at the box office and few people had seen it then I'm sure the same people trashing it would instead have been shouting from the rooftops about its visual effects and production values.
> 
> ...



There is definitely something to be said for appearing to be a "tastemaker" by poo-pooing the mainstream and promoting the unknown. How often do we hear from people who push their list of unknown bands, and they usually are terrible?


However, Avatar bothers a lot of people because it was billed as a tour-de-force of realistic CGI, and it looks like a cartoon to many of us. Plus, one tires of James Cameron's penchant for the evil corporate greed antagonist. It's like Crichton's anti-science schtick - so tiresome.

And the issue with the newest Tolkien featurette is that it isn't that people are rejecting a popular author - they are rejecting Tolkien stuff that Tolkien didn't write. For the same reason that I have no interest in various Dune spin-offs. Taking someone's world building and stuffing their own characters into that world doesn't make the final product Tolkien or Herbert.


If people just like being snooty they would bag on Raiders, Star Wars and the Matrix while promoting the films of Uwe Bol. But seemingly no one is pretentious enough to go there.



Overall, science fiction is a film genre that in many ways died in the late '80s. We might never get back to the unaffected and earnest productions of that period. The efforts of Villanueva and Nolan give me hope, though.


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## Stephen Palmer (Oct 13, 2022)

Success breeds envy. 
The thing with Avatar (which I loathed) was the huge void at its centre, composed in part of terrible concept, terrible script, characters you couldn't even be bothered to hate, and world-striding arrogance. 
Somebody on the RoP thread got it right when commenting on the GRRM tv in competition (sorry, can't remember it's name), which has less sfx, more grit and real characters. I don't think people are lining up to mock RoP specifically out of contempt for it, they're doing it because after a few episodes they've realised it also has a great void at its centre. 
What about Villeneuve's Dune? Highly successful, but highly good. No void there.


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## Toby Frost (Oct 13, 2022)

Hmm, perhaps we're talking about what a science fiction film has to do to succeed now. I felt that Villeneuve's Dune didn't quite succeed, because it was dull to look at, and being interesting to look at is, for me, an intrinsic part of Dune. However, Lynch's Dune didn't succeed either, because it was very hard to follow, and overall it failed more than Villeneuve's.

Anyhow, back to Avatar. I think there has to be more to it than that. Why is Avatar particularly hated? Everything negative that's been said about it could have been said about a bunch of other films - there's nobody queuing up to tell us how bad The Fifth Element is, say. Personally, I think the key to this is Avatar's po-faced quality, and it's lack of straight-up fun. You can't really like it ironically or completely innocently (that's not quite the right word), the way you can the Marvel films. So many films now have an element of self-knowing kitsch, but watching Avatar is like someone earnestly telling you that the rainforests are important for two hours, as if you've never guessed this before. It's as if it wanted the gravitas of Aliens but the jolly colours of a film for small children. And maybe that makes it easier to ridicule.


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## elvet (Oct 13, 2022)

I loved Avatar, watched it 5 times, 3 at IMAX in 3D. The experience at the time was bar none. True escapism, excitement--almost virtual reality for me. The story was secondary. It was all about as close to being on another world as possible. Maybe I'm superficial, or just easily amused  , but it caught my imagination much like Jurassic Park did when it came out.


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## Toby Frost (Oct 13, 2022)

I've got to admit, I saw it in a huge 3D cinema and I was pretty impressed with the visuals. There's a bit where seeds fall in front of the camera and I instinctively reached out to touch them.


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## jd73 (Oct 13, 2022)

It's hard to say generally. I imagine there are people who express a view which adheres them to a certain group, rather than conveys their true feelings about something, feelings which may not even be particularly clear, though they will possibly have very clear ones about how they wish to be perceived/where they count their alliances etc. Equally there may be people for whom a thing is for some personal reason intolerable. Those reasons may be unique to them, like a memory, though others might have similar memories/experiences/etc. But anyway, this is why I don't read reviews. There's just no point. Besides, I have far too wide of a cheeze-lovin' streak to pretend envy at success or to jump on any bandwagon. If I like something, I go all goo goo ga ga over it, never mind how popular it is or successful it isn't.  I mean, I'm listening to vaporwave right now, which is basically hold music. I love it (makes me feel so good)


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## Swank (Oct 13, 2022)

Toby Frost said:


> Everything negative that's been said about it could have been said about a bunch of other films - there's nobody queuing up to tell us how bad The Fifth Element is, say


Well, Fifth Element is a comedy, and most of the bad things many people do say about it seem like an insensitivity to satire and pastiche. For me, Fifth Element is very much like Gross Point Blank (a romantic comedy that also succeeds as an action/espionage film). It manages to be Space Balls and Star Wars simultaneously.



Toby Frost said:


> Personally, I think the key to this is Avatar's po-faced quality, and it's lack of straight-up fun. You can't really like it ironically or completely innocently (that's not quite the right word), the way you can the Marvel films. So many films now have an element of self-knowing kitsch, but watching Avatar is like someone earnestly telling you that the rainforests are important for two hours, as if you've never guessed this before. It's as if it wanted the gravitas of Aliens but the jolly colours of a film for small children. And maybe that makes it easier to ridicule.


Spot on. And I think the reason it doesn't manage to be Aliens is that there is too much exposition to the point that there is no mystery for the audience to discover later on. It all goes pretty much as we would expect based on a summary - there aren't any twists or major bits of jeopardy.

I feel much more invested in the absurd characters in Fifth Element than the straightforward ones in Avatar. Of course, I also think Wes Anderson manages to create more psychologically realistic characters in his comedies than most dramas do, so it is possible that I am just broken.


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## Rodders (Oct 13, 2022)

Success always brings negativity and i think there is an element of critique becoming a kind of badge of honour and it's almost trendy to hate on certain movies. 

On the flip side, there could be elements of people overreacting when a movie they enjoy receives criticism. I always get a little defensive when people criticise favourites of mine. Are some of us overreacting to innocent critique?


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## Pyan (Oct 13, 2022)

I think there's a difference between being contrarian and just not getting it. I've never been able to watch _Citizen Kane_ all the way through, mainly because I've drifted off to sleep every time it's been on TV. I try to tell myself "Look, this film has been at or near the top of every 'Best Ever Film' list for the last 50+years", but it doesn't keep me awake. But the point is, I'm not being contrarian about it: I genuinely just don't get the reasons _why_ this film is so adulated.


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## Parson (Oct 13, 2022)

Toby Frost said:


> there's nobody queuing up to tell us how bad The Fifth Element is,


Put me in this line! I hated, hated, The Fifth Element.



Swank said:


> Well, Fifth Element is a comedy, and most of the bad things many people do say about it seem like an insensitivity to satire and pastiche. For me, Fifth Element is very much like Gross Point Blank (a romantic comedy that also succeeds as an action/espionage film). It manages to be Space Balls and Star Wars simultaneously.



Okay, I did not see any satire or pastiche in the movie. All I saw a super dumb plot, unbelievable aliens, and a woman in an outfit only a man could have designed. --- So maybe I'm too dumb to get this movie?

--------

But on point. I know that at least among the lot of people on this forum, I'm very much in the minority. Is it a minority of one? But I was shocked to discover that there were those who loved this movie. It's my own reading of it, and has nothing to do with joining one line or the other.


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## AnRoinnUltra (Oct 13, 2022)

Parson said:


> maybe I'm too dumb to get this movie?


I'll bet I'm a lot dumber than you and I loved The Fifth Element ...pure Flash Gordon style messing On the other hand I didn't like Avatar -the visuals were great and the idea cool but the plot just felt dour and clunky. Success breeding contempt is a bit strong -I think people sometimes take a queue from others on what's cool to dislike (or mock).
Although it's hard to know -there might also be a bit of 'greatest Sci-Fi film of all time, bit uppity of them to say so, let's see if I can't find fault with it'.


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## Parson (Oct 13, 2022)

AnRoinnUltra said:


> I'll bet I'm a lot dumber than you


I doubt this, but I do not doubt that everyone is at borderline brilliant at something. I taught public school for 4 years, and even the children who struggled most with the academic work usually excelled in something else.


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## AnRoinnUltra (Oct 13, 2022)

Parson said:


> everyone is at borderline brilliant at something


Of course, was only messing -everyone has their place in the jigsaw and no one piece is more important than any other ...still reckon The Fifth Element was a great show though


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## Parson (Oct 13, 2022)

I agree and I disagree about The Fifth Element.


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## JunkMonkey (Oct 13, 2022)

I've not seen _Avatar_ either so can't comment  (or Villeneuve's Dune but I thought his Blade Runner sequel was dire) but there have been times when I have been bewildered by the adulation poured on the most incredible tripe by millions of otherwise (apparently) sensible people.  

 It's at those times I feel like the little boy in the Hans Christian Anderson story, The Emperor's New Clothes.

Sometimes you just have to stand up and say, "I don't care how popular it is; it's crap! why can't you see it?"


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## Swank (Oct 14, 2022)

Parson said:


> Okay, I did not see any satire or pastiche in the movie. All I saw a super dumb plot, unbelievable aliens, and a woman in an outfit only a man could have designed. --- So maybe I'm too dumb to get this movie?


No, no one is calling you dumb. But you are at least aware of Leia's hairdo appearing in the film, but maybe didn't note the 2001 stewardesses, complicated rifles reminiscent of Aliens, Bladerunner '40s retro-future styles in the cars, Galactica uniforms, star destroyer space ships, von Däniken ancient astronauts, random British characters (Star Wars), megalomaniac with cute pet and supporting cast members notable for their previous SF roles.

And I do think it is satire, with a range of SF plot points re-enacted in often exaggerated form.


None of which means anyone needs to like Fifth Element. It is a fun but trashy film. But it was designed to be that way.


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## Parson (Oct 14, 2022)

Swank said:


> No, no one is calling you dumb. But you are at least aware of Leia's hairdo appearing in the film, but maybe didn't note the 2001 stewardesses, complicated rifles reminiscent of Aliens, Bladerunner '40s retro-future styles in the cars, Galactica uniforms, star destroyer space ships, von Däniken ancient astronauts, random British characters (Star Wars), megalomaniac with cute pet and supporting cast members notable for their previous SF roles.
> 
> And I do think it is satire, with a range of SF plot points re-enacted in often exaggerated form.
> 
> ...


Okay, No I don't remember any of those things. I wasn't looking for send-ups (which I detest by the way). I was looking for a plot, action, believable science, and an ending that made sense. I found scarcely any of those. I don't watch many movies so outside of the Star Wars hairdo, I likely wouldn't have caught any of those. I watched a little of Battlestar Galactica (I assume that's the meaning of Galactica) but that was decades before The Fifth Element. I watched the first Aliens, but complicated rifles seems obvious, why would one look for something there. For the rest I wouldn't have had a chance. 

I now see that I was not the intended audience for this movie.


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## Danny McG (Oct 14, 2022)

JunkMonkey said:


> Sometimes you just have to stand up and say, "I don't care how popular it is; it's crap! why can't you see it?"


This!
In so much of the tripe studios bang out nowadays.


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## LordOfWizards (Oct 14, 2022)

Stephen Palmer said:


> Success breeds envy.



Agreed. And in the case of Avatar:  overall highest-grossing film. In 2009, it was the first film to earn more than $2 billion and concluded its original box office run with gross revenue of $2.749 billion (US) I'm not sure you could attribute all of that to pre-teens, it seems to me it's just the mind numbing simplistic kind of thing that the mind numbingly simplistic masses want. 


Stephen Palmer said:


> What about Villeneuve's Dune? Highly successful, but highly good. No void there.


Agreed.


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## THX1138 (Oct 14, 2022)

LordOfWizards said:


> Agreed. And in the case of Avatar:  overall highest-grossing film. In 2009, it was the first film to earn more than $2 billion and concluded its original box office run with gross revenue of $2.749 billion (US) I'm not sure you could attribute all of that to pre-teens, it seems to me it's just the mind numbing simplistic kind of thing that the mind numbingly simplistic masses want.
> 
> Agreed.


Yep. It seems it is all about the mind blowing CGI effects and the end meaning of the movie. The core meaning of the script and story (good or bad) seem to be, well, "Huh? Yea, well, the story had deep meaning. But the effects made up for that."  What?


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## Elckerlyc (Oct 14, 2022)

Parson said:


> Okay, No I don't remember any of those things. I wasn't looking for send-ups (which I detest by the way). I was looking for a plot, action, believable science, and an ending that made sense. I found scarcely any of those. I don't watch many movies so outside of the Star Wars hairdo, I likely wouldn't have caught any of those. I watched a little of Battlestar Galactica (I assume that's the meaning of Galactica) but that was decades before The Fifth Element. I watched the first Aliens, but complicated rifles seems obvious, why would one look for something there. For the rest I wouldn't have had a chance.
> 
> I now see that I was not the intended audience for this movie.


I've never seen The Fifth Element, but on basis of @Swank description, it doesn't sound remotely like a movie I would enjoy. Not my type of humor or comedy. So, without having seen it, I'll join you in your lonesome line.


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## Toby Frost (Oct 14, 2022)

Swank said:


> the reason it doesn't manage to be Aliens is that there is too much exposition to the point that there is no mystery for the audience to discover later on. It all goes pretty much as we would expect based on a summary - there aren't any twists or major bits of jeopardy.
> 
> I feel much more invested in the absurd characters in Fifth Element than the straightforward ones in Avatar.




It's interesting how grotesque characters can feel more real than "normal" ones. I find the characters in Titus Groan much more convincing than a lot of thriller characters (tough hero, romantic interest etc). Maybe it's because they've got greater depth, or they're allowed more quirks.



LordOfWizards said:


> it seems to me it's just the mind numbing simplistic kind of thing that the mind numbingly simplistic masses want.




Yes, but so are most, if not all, superhero films. I find the Nolan Batman films especially irritating, because they treat a man dressing up and punching people like some deep reflection on the meaning of life. Going back to the Aliens idea, maybe the problem with Avatar is that it fails to be either either "ironic" or "dark" and therefore its stupidity is easier to spot.


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## jd73 (Oct 14, 2022)

Swank said:


> No, no one is calling you dumb. But you are at least aware of Leia's hairdo appearing in the film, but maybe didn't note the 2001 stewardesses, complicated rifles reminiscent of Aliens, Bladerunner '40s retro-future styles in the cars, Galactica uniforms, star destroyer space ships, von Däniken ancient astronauts, random British characters (Star Wars), megalomaniac with cute pet and supporting cast members notable for their previous SF roles.
> 
> And I do think it is satire, with a range of SF plot points re-enacted in often exaggerated form.
> 
> ...





Elckerlyc said:


> I've never seen The Fifth Element, but on basis of @Swank description, it doesn't sound remotely like a movie I would enjoy. Not my type of humor or comedy. So, without having seen it, I'll join you in your lonesome line.



Loved this film! It's just a lot of silly fun (though I grant you it's no Galaxy Quest). Anyway Ruby Rhod is my spirit animal so all naysayers can bzz. Bzzz-zzzZZ!


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## JunkMonkey (Oct 14, 2022)

THX1138 said:


> Yep. It seems it is all about the mind blowing CGI effects and the end meaning of the movie. The core meaning of the script and story (good or bad) seem to be, well, "Huh? Yea, well, the story had deep meaning. But the effects made up for that."  What?



True, there are so many ways you can gussy up: "I have daddy issues!" (which is what 90% of superhero movie appear to be 'about' *)



*the other 10% is Wonder Woman.


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## LordOfWizards (Oct 14, 2022)

Okay, you guys can trash me now because I liked The Fifth Element. I did not like it the first time I saw it. It is just funny (although I still hate that stupid radio show guy) . I can sometimes tolerate stupid if its also funny


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## The Big Peat (Oct 14, 2022)

My glib answer is yes, but what doesn't? We are a breed that mostly finds contempt easy, enjoyable, and perhaps necessary. Even the many of us who pride ourselves on being reasonable, broad-minded, and respectful of others do it from time to time.

More to the point...

I am a big believer that certain parts of taste, such as genre fandom, become big parts of our identity, and we all know people react savagely when they feel that their identity is being belittled. When flagship projects relating to our taste fall very short of our desires, and seem to be communicating things about that taste that run very counter to ours, we often perceive it as a belittling of our identity. 

And thus we react savagely. With contempt.

So yes, success breeds contempt. Or perhaps more precisely, success creates the level of magnitude needed to create a threat, which creates good conditions for contempt.


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## Robert Zwilling (Oct 15, 2022)

There is also the aspect of misidentifying the core values of a movie, such as not realizing a movie is a comedy and is not making a serious attempt to get any serious messages across except to relax, enjoy, and have a good time, which results in holding a movie to a different set of criteria for which it was never meant to be identified with. I'm sure this happens all the time. Movies are edited to create a flowing coherent stream of ideas, and if the flow is not perceived then it could be very likely that the movie falls flat and it appears to be nothing more than a bunch of disconnected scenes that are legitimately not worth watching.

I also figure that in the hey day of critics, fifty years ago, who communicated their professional opinions by words printed on paper, that comedies could be seen as not being funny, but were not mistaken for drama. It was more likely that drama could be referred to as unintentional comedy, which would have been a negative review. 

Fast forward to today where everyone who has access to the internet, can write up an opinion about something that inadvertently applies the wrong standards for which it was never intended, and come up with legitimate reasons why they didn't like it. At the same time there are also people reading more into something than what it is and giving it a positive boost, again, based on reasons that don't exist.

Another thing that comes into play is the age of the person. For some topics, the older the person, the less there was to compare something to, so that when it first came out it meant a great deal and maybe still does. The younger the person, the more things they have seen to compare something to, so older works seem to be clunky, out dated, visually lacking, looking nothing like what followed them. 

I like Blade Runner 2079 but don't see it as science fiction. It's a future age political action thriller with scifi props that proceeds at a very slow pace through a great deal of darkness, which is very dark and nothing else. The dark scenes in the original Blade Runner, a true science fiction movie, were filled with things to look at and think about.


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## JunkMonkey (Oct 15, 2022)

Robert Zwilling said:


> Another thing that comes into play is the age of the person. For some topics, the older the person, the less there was to compare something to, so that when it first came out it meant a great deal and maybe still does. The younger the person, the more things they have seen to compare something to, so older works seem to be clunky, out dated, visually lacking, looking nothing like what followed them.



On the other hand the older you are the more likely you are to have been endlessly exposed to the same story/plot/ideas. The older a person is the more context they have (if they've been paying attention).

Watching someone slickly trotting out something is often far less interesting than watching the older, earlier attempts by writers or film makers struggling to nail down the concepts in the first place.


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## Brian G Turner (Oct 16, 2022)

Something that's easily overlooked with _Avatar _is that it's family-friendly SF, which can be really hard to find. Most classic SF films just aren't suitable to watch with a young family. Additionally, what could be suitable is often directly targeted at boys, with few if any female characters present and often sexualized if they are. I guess that's one reason why _Avatar _enjoyed so much success on top of it's stunning visuals. As a dad with young kids that made it a pleasure to watch, share, and enjoy with them.


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## Montero (Oct 16, 2022)

I like both Avatar and Fifth Element - they're entertainment, they're time to turn my brain off from grim things and put my feet up. When I was at school, the school librarian also contributed to the report card - she was an English graduate - and I was invariably criticised for not reading enough literature and reading sf and thrillers. Though I also read a lot of nature books and some autobiographies. But I don't want to have my brain and boundaries stretched all the time, I don't want to work all the time, sometimes I just want to sit back and slurp brain candy - ideally well put together not factually stupid and inconsistent, non-annoying brain candy - but slurp is on the menu.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Oct 16, 2022)

Montero said:


> When I was at school, the school librarian also contributed to the report card - she was an English graduate - and I was invariably criticised for not reading enough literature and reading sf and thriller


What an excellent way to kill a child's love of reading! I wonder whose bright idea that was?  The teachers and school librarians that I have known—and I have met a lot, first as a student, then as the mother of four children and a school volunteer—were just glad to see that a child was reading _something. _And if they knew a child wasn't reading the books they took home from the library each week, the librarians would search through the whole library for books that would speak to that child's particular interests.

I remember when I was in school—long ago as it was—no teacher_ ever_ said to me, "_What are you reading?  No, no, you should be reading real literature instead of that!_"  On the contrary, no matter what I was reading—and quite often it was fairy tales or fantasy—they said, "_Teresa always has her nose in a book.  Isn't it wonderful?_"  Librarians would say to me, "I_f you are enjoying that book, here are some others like it that you might also enjoy._"


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## Dave (Oct 16, 2022)

"Does success breed contempt?"

In a very general sense, yes!

People appear to dislike other successful people, people who have made their own fortunes, been incredibly lucky, or who have somehow achieved fame. Instead they seem to like to favour and love the underdog. I don't think it is just envy, but something more. Without becoming political, you see that commonly in the reaction to public figures, businessmen, sportsmen and actors. As an example, why do people hate David Beckham so much but love Eddie the Eagle so much? In the same way, people refuse to visit some popular restaurants with good hygiene and awards, but they will pay over the odds for some "local" greasy-spoon food made in a tent because in appears to be artisan.

So, why would it be any different with TV shows and film?



paranoid marvin said:


> one of the pleasures of watching Red Dwarf when it first aired was being one of the few who actually watched it from episode 1


I had the same experience when _The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy_ was first on BBC Radio 4. It was a kind of underground success and only a very few people knew about it. Episodes were recorded on audio cassette and exchanged hands.


Elckerlyc said:


> How un-cool to like something that the ignorant masses likes!


Exactly, once it became better known, repeated, made into a popular book series, TV series and film, then it was no longer cool to like it. Fans began to be much more critical of it.

I didn't dislike _Avatar_ and it is yes a good family-friendly film that is also Science Fiction, but I don't rate it as highly as it gets in "greatest science fiction film" charts. Maybe the 3D was the most important thing about it and why I'm still not getting it. I couldn't say why other people hate Avatar so much, but I don't think it is only because it was successful. The thing is, "popularity" is not the same as "critically acclaimed" or "worthy" or "greatest". However, box-office takings can be quantifiably measured, everything else is subjective.

I do remember Avatar being heavily advertised. There were also many interviews and clips on TV and much promotion of the CGI rather than the substance. In general, if film that needs a huge advertising budget it is because the studio thinks it will flop (or not make back the money spent and there was a big budget for the "cutting edge" CGI). As mentioned, if a film is "very cool" then it doesn't need advertising. Films such as _Napoleon Dynamite_ and _Everything, Everywhere All At Once _just get huge word-of-mouth advertising and grow on the back of that.

Then there are films that initially flop, but later become some kind of "cult" film later. There are plenty of those around.

_The Fifth Element_ is a film that didn't have as much box-office success as expected. I first saw it on DVD and didn't think much of it, but it has grown on me since because I hadn't appreciated that it wasn't to be taken so seriously, and there is a lot of humour there.



Toby Frost said:


> I felt that Villeneuve's Dune didn't quite succeed, because it was dull to look at, and being interesting to look at is, for me, an intrinsic part of Dune. However, Lynch's Dune didn't succeed either, because it was very hard to follow, and overall it failed more than Villeneuve's.


I think some books are too hard to adapt to film, and no film can ever do the book justice. I think _Dune_ is definitely one of those books. Therefore, everyone expects the film to be better than it can ever be.


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## Montero (Oct 16, 2022)

Huh. And I've never heard of Napoleon Dynamite...


Teresa Edgerton said:


> What an excellent way to kill a child's love of reading! I wonder whose bright idea that was?


The complaint was that I wasn't reading up to my intellectual level. I think she underestimated the intellectual level of the books I was reading. I wish I'd had a "you'll enjoy this too" librarian. Mind you, I actually liked her as a person, she was alright, just had very fixed ideas on reading material. At primary school they wrote on my report cards that I read too much and they were worried I didn't play enough. On the last day of summer term you could have a bring in your toys day. No way was I bringing in MY toys. So I brought in library books and sat at a table and read them. With occasional interruptions of "are you sure you don't want to do something else?" "No." And I didn't manage to identify the underlying thought, though I can now, that being miles away in a sailing boat in the Lake District, or riding in the Australian outback, or whereever the book was set, was far more fun that an overheated classroom full of overexcited kids.


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## Vladd67 (Oct 16, 2022)

I have had people complain about sci fi and fantasy being 'sad' and if you take the slightest interest you are a nerd. Yet these same people know the entire family histories and daily happenings in a fictional London square and an also fictional northern town.


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## paranoid marvin (Oct 16, 2022)

Vladd67 said:


> I have had people complain about sci fi and fantasy being 'sad' and if you take the slightest interest you are a nerd. Yet these same people know the entire family histories and daily happenings in a fictional London square and an also fictional northern town.




This was my impression of how things were back in the 80s, and also applied to video gaming as well. Things have certainly moved on greatly in the gaming department, mainly since the introduction of the Playstation and it being 'socially acceptable' to having a games console in the living room. This led to a bit of a backlash, with some long-time gamers seeing the late-comers as 'casual gamers', a term which was usually used derogatively.

I would say that the same has also happened with the fantasy genre, especially since the introduction of Game of Thrones, where it suddenly became cool to talk about programmes with dragons, magic and sword fights. Science fiction is a little different, and whilst the Star Wars and (to a lesser extent) Star Trek franchises are extremely popular, movies/tv shows with spaceships in them are still a turn off to many people.

But that's fine, and whilst I can see no reason why anyone would want to watch the (increasingly unbelievable) goings on of characters in Manchester, London, Liverpool and Emmerdale, if they see no reason why I should be interested in the adventures of people in a galaxy far, far away then so be it. We probably both think that the other is missing out, but the world would be an incredibly dull place if we all liked the same things.


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## paranoid marvin (Oct 16, 2022)

I also think that there's a fine line between what can be described a sci-fi, fantasy or a combination of both. It could be argued that any work of fiction that deals with concepts that are widely regarded as impossible should be fantasy rather than science fiction, or at least be weighted heavily in that direction.

The Fifth Element I enjoyed the first time I saw it, but when I watched it for a second time I didn't - it was all a bit too much, a full-on audio and visual experience. There's plenty of concepts in there, many of which I hadn't realised until they were highlighted earlier in this thread. It's almost as if there are 'easter eggs' in there to be enjoyed by those who recognise and spot them; but whilst many movies have such things as extra bonuses to heighten the enjoyment of the show, this movie's success seems to rely on them.  It's also a little too long and a little too silly for my tastes, but there's little doubt that the vision of the director is fully realised here, as it was with Cameron's Avatar; this was the film they wanted to make, and they made it.


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## paranoid marvin (Oct 16, 2022)

Brian G Turner said:


> Something that's easily overlooked with _Avatar _is that it's family-friendly SF, which can be really hard to find. Most classic SF films just aren't suitable to watch with a young family. Additionally, what could be suitable is often directly targeted at boys, with few if any female characters present and often sexualized if they are. I guess that's one reason why _Avatar _enjoyed so much success on top of it's stunning visuals. As a dad with young kids that made it a pleasure to watch, share, and enjoy with them.



I do think that there is plenty of family-friendly 'classic' science fiction out there. From as early as the Flash Gordon serials, Lost in Space, Star Trek, The Jetsons. Tron, Back to the Future etc. - but thinking about it, they probably are more designed to appeal to boys rather than girls. (Lost in Space was usually the boys going out having adventures whilst the girls stayed home).

I think that this is one of the reasons why Star Wars was so popular and so successful; it has universal appeal to all ages and sexes. It's a trilogy of movies that is fun for all the family, and whilst Leia gets to wear 'that' outfit at the beginning of ROTJ (although she does deliver payback on the responsible party), she is one of (if not _the _strongest) female roles in science fiction.

Even today, any child sat in a cinema watching the opening to Star Wars would be glued to the screen.


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## HareBrain (Oct 16, 2022)

It doesn't just happen with success, though.

The Dark is Rising is a much-loved children's book by Susan Cooper. I'd suggest its fans are probably just as ardent as Tolkien's, and I think they got every bit as angry about the risible, execrable 2007 film version as people have about Rings of Power, even though it pretty much disappeared without trace.


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## paranoid marvin (Oct 16, 2022)

HareBrain said:


> It doesn't just happen with success, though.
> 
> The Dark is Rising is a much-loved children's book by Susan Cooper. I'd suggest its fans are probably just as ardent as Tolkien's, and I think they got every bit as angry about the risible, execrable 2007 film version as people have about Rings of Power, even though it pretty much disappeared without trace.




I think that Tolkien would have been angered and appalled at the treatment his work has received on the big screen. On the other hand, it has financially secured his descendants for all eternity, so not a bad compromise.


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## HareBrain (Oct 16, 2022)

paranoid marvin said:


> I think that Tolkien would have been angered and appalled at the treatment his work has received on the big screen. On the other hand, it has financially secured his descendants for all eternity, so not a bad compromise.


When Tolkien was first negotiating film rights to LOTR, he said in a letter to his publishers, something like "I want quality or I want money". He was well aware he probably wouldn't get both, so I'm not sure how angered he would have been, given the payment. I'm pretty sure he would never have watched any of it, though.


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## paranoid marvin (Oct 16, 2022)

HareBrain said:


> When Tolkien was first negotiating film rights to LOTR, he said in a letter to his publishers, something like "I want quality or I want money". He was well aware he probably wouldn't get both, so I'm not sure how angered he would have been, given the payment. I'm pretty sure he would never have watched any of it, though.



I didn't know that he'd said that; so turning The Hobbit into a three movie epic, which (at least) trebled the income his estate received from it gave him one of the things he wanted (if not the other). I suppose that when you have been an active participant in two world wars, literary concerns have to be put into perspective.


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## HareBrain (Oct 16, 2022)

paranoid marvin said:


> so turning The Hobbit into a three movie epic, which (at least) trebled the income his estate received from it gave him one of the things he wanted (if not the other).


I'm not aware of what the rights deal was for The Hobbit -- did the Estate get a %age?

I watched an interesting video last year about why the Hobbit was changed from a two-film to a three-film version. There were two subsidiary industry players (one of them Harvey Weinstein) who were entitled to a cut of the first film in any Hobbit series, but not the following episodes. Increasing the number of films therefore gave the main makers a higher %age of the profit overall. (I'm not sure how big a part this played, but it gives an idea of the artistically destructive financial shenanigans going on.)


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## Swank (Oct 16, 2022)

If success breeds contempt, where is it for _Alien, Aliens, Stars Wars (OT), E.T., Jaws, Terminator 1-2, Jurassic Park, LOTR, Matrix, Iron Man, The Incredibles, The Dark Knight, Inception, Gravity, Men In Black, Mad Max: Fury Road, 12 Monkeys, Ghostbusters, The Martian, Wall-E _or_ Back to the Future_? All of those movies where huge financial and pop-culture successes. No one spends any time criticizing any of them.

So let's turn it around:  Why is success confused with quality? Are _Twilight, GI Joe: Retaliation, Batman vs Superman _and_ Armageddon_ above contempt due to their financial success?


There is a huge middle level of film that is successful and well made, despite having glaring flaws that nerds and critics find hard to ignore. I brought _Fifth Element_ into this thread just to make the point that I thought those goofball characters were more sympathetic than anyone in _Avatar_, but both of those films are flawed (in different ways).

There is never going to be nearly as much discussion about the flaws in_ Europa Report _as there will be about _Justice League_. Almost no one saw _Europa Report _compared to _Justice League_, so there just aren't as many potential critics available. That is a way "success breeds contempt", but not in the causal manner we're discussing.



Another factor in all of this is the directors themselves:  Are the best works by beloved directors the earliest or latest? Does going to see the latest Lucas, Spielberg, Ridley Scott, Christopher Nolan, James Cameron, JJ Abrams, Luc Besson, Wachowski, Peter Jackson, M. Night Shyamalan, Joss Whedon, John Carpenter or Michael Bay movie really seem like a better idea than watching something they made 10-40 years ago? We kind of expect that a great filmmaker is going to keep it up, and that just doesn't seem to the case.


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## JunkMonkey (Oct 16, 2022)

Dave said:


> I had the same experience when _The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy_ was first on BBC Radio 4. It was a kind of underground success and only a very few people knew about it. Episodes were recorded on audio cassette and exchanged hands.
> 
> 
> <snip>once it became better known, repeated, made into a popular book series, TV series and film, then it was no longer cool to like it. Fans began to be much more critical of it.



Though, to be fair as the same material was endlessly beaten into new formats it did get a bit thin and worn out.  The radio serial which I remeber listening to on Radio 4 back in the day still stands up.  It works. As a radio show it's funny. As an LP (I have a copy) it is still funny but less so - what works as a serial with week long gaps between episodes doesn't necessarily hold together as a whole .  As a TV show it's okay, the books wore out their welcome pretty quickly, and as a film it was a bore. The more special effects were thrown at it, the less special it became.


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## The Big Peat (Oct 16, 2022)

Dave said:


> As an example, why do people hate David Beckham so much but love Eddie the Eagle so much?



Tbf, Beckham had a notable lack of success for the national team, culminating in letting them down at the worst moment. If he'd won a major tournament and actually had success, rather than being an underachiever, might be a very different story.

As it is, being the person who lets down the huge load of emotional investment rarely goes well. Which I think is very much a strand of what goes on here.


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## Montero (Oct 16, 2022)

Yes, no-one expected Eddie the Eagle to succeed, we just liked watching him flap his wings and annoy the other countries that had serious contenders in the ski jump. He delivered on the emotional investment.
And fair play to him, he did jump off the ski jump and land without killing himself. He had worked at it.

Which takes us back to the point that if your expectations of a film match what it delivers, you are happy, if the expectations don't match, then you're not. Disappointment can make people really sharp about it on reflex, especially if you've been waiting for a new release for months and then it is meh.


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## Vince W (Oct 16, 2022)

The Big Peat said:


> Tbf, Beckham had a notable lack of success for the national team, culminating in letting them down at the worst moment. If he'd won a major tournament and actually had success, rather than being an underachiever, might be a very different story.
> 
> As it is, being the person who lets down the huge load of emotional investment rarely goes well. Which I think is very much a strand of what goes on here.


Beckham is hated because of who he managed to marry more than anything he may or may not have done on the pitch. At least it is for me.


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## Swank (Oct 16, 2022)

Vince W said:


> Beckham is hated because of who he managed to marry more than anything he may or may not have done on the pitch. At least it is for me.


Because he should be with Sporty rather than Posh?


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## Parson (Oct 17, 2022)

So let me get this straight: The Englishman who is a legend all over the world in the world's most watched sport is hated, and the Englishman who was among the worst ever to participate at the Olympic level in his sport is loved. -----   Makes sense to me.


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## JunkMonkey (Oct 17, 2022)

Parson said:


> So let me get this straight: The Englishman who is a legend all over the world in the world's most watched sport is hated, and the Englishman who was among the worst ever to participate at the Olympic level in his sport is loved. -----   Makes sense to me.



Yep. Heroic failure is about the only thing we truly appreciate here.  Possibly because we are so good at it - we should be, we've done precious little else for the past 50 years.


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## The Big Peat (Oct 17, 2022)

Parson said:


> So let me get this straight: The Englishman who is a legend all over the world in the world's most watched sport is hated, and the Englishman who was among the worst ever to participate at the Olympic level in his sport is loved. -----   Makes sense to me.



One person gave us what we wanted from him, the other didn't. 

Also

a) his good stuff came for a club most of my generation loathed to a somewhat insane extent. Expecting us to love him is like expecting Steelers fans to love Tom Brady

b) it's not quite that simple. I imagine Eddie the Eagle made plenty cringe. I feel like the majority of people no longer have strong feelings about Beckham. But the larger the name, the more noise there is, and as such I imagine more people hate Beckham than even think about Eddie the Eagle's existence


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## BAYLOR (Dec 4, 2022)

Yes, ive very very very jealous that I didn't think of this thread my sel.

Nope ! Don't bother im really  inconsolable about it  .


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## Pyan (Dec 4, 2022)

The Big Peat said:


> ...his good stuff came for a club most of my generation loathed to a somewhat insane extent.


This is true - English football fans can be divided into two mutually exclusive groups:

a) Manchester United fans
b) Everyone else


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## Venusian Broon (Dec 5, 2022)

Pyan said:


> This is true - English football fans can be divided into two mutually exclusive groups:
> 
> a) Manchester United fans
> b) Everyone else



I'm in the (b) camp, However, I think the division of English football fans is faaarrr more complicated. (although I'm Scottish, so perhaps my views don't count. I am observant, however!)

The local rivalries between loads of different English clubs can be pretty scary. I used to live in Cambridge in the 90s and I remember vividly when the local rivals, Peterborough, came to play a game. Essentially the Cambridge police 'escorted' the couple of thousand Peterborough fans out to the train station and back home using dogs, helicopters and about about 500 officers. (If you want a scene to imagine this, it was a bit like the scenes in _Band of Brothers _where the surrendered Wehrmacht are marched along the autobahns - just add a layer of police/dogs either side.)

Peterborough fans really hate Cambridge Utd. (And vice versa)


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## Pyan (Dec 5, 2022)

Yes, but I think you'll find that the only thing that Peterborough and Cambridge (or Southampton/Portsmouth, Liverpool/Everton, Newcastle/Sunderland, Millwall/West Ham, etc, etc,) fans actually agree on is that_ both_ sets of supporters also hate Manchester United. The only other teams that really come close are Leeds United and Chelsea.

Possibly the root of the dislike of Manure Man Utd stems from the days when they were generally regarded as the richest club in England, with the obvious corollary that they bought their way to success, rather than developing home-grown talent. However, as more and more clubs are going the way of insanely rich corporate and private owners, it would suggest that the loathing of Man Utd is slowly growing less than it was, and eventually they'll reach the dizzy heights of "disliked". Don't count on it being inevitable or anytime soon, though.


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## Pyan (Dec 5, 2022)

Venusian Broon said:


> The local rivalries between loads of different English clubs can be pretty scary. I used to live in Cambridge in the 90s and I remember vividly when the local rivals, Peterborough, came to play a game. Essentially the Cambridge police 'escorted' the couple of thousand Peterborough fans out to the train station and back home using dogs, helicopters and about about 500 officers. (If you want a scene to imagine this, it was a bit like the scenes in _Band of Brothers _where the surrendered Wehrmacht are marched along the autobahns - just add a layer of police/dogs either side.)


We used to have this when Southampton and Portsmouth were both in the same division, and we had the dubious pleasure of the South Coast Derby to look forward to each year. 
The matches were usually moved to an early kick-off, often 12:30, to cut down on the amount of time the two sets of fans could spend in the pubs beforehand. They were strictly ticket-only with a reduced ground capacity to allow for wide gaps between factions in the stadium, and the home fans were held in the ground until the away ones could be herded (and that's the exact description) onto the coaches for the trip home, escorted by half the entire Hampshire police force until they were on the motorway. Even then, it was unusual for all the coaches to escape without at least one brick-smashed window.
Fun times...


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## JunkMonkey (Dec 5, 2022)

This does seem to me to be a purely football thing.


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## Venusian Broon (Dec 5, 2022)

Pyan said:


> Yes, but I think you'll find that the only thing that Peterborough and Cambridge (or Southampton/Portsmouth, Liverpool/Everton, Newcastle/Sunderland, Millwall/West Ham, etc, etc,) fans actually agree on is that_ both_ sets of supporters also hate Manchester United. The only other teams that really come close are Leeds United and Chelsea.
> 
> Possibly the root of the dislike of Manure Man Utd stems from the days when they were generally regarded as the richest club in England, with the obvious corollary that they bought their way to success, rather than developing home-grown talent. However, as more and more clubs are going the way of insanely rich corporate and private owners, it would suggest that the loathing of Man Utd is slowly growing less than it was, and eventually they'll reach the dizzy heights of "disliked". Don't count on it being inevitable or anytime soon, though.


That hasn't been my personal experience (anecdotal, of course). Some fans really are local fans for local people. 

Speaking as someone whose "English team" is Arsenal (I lived down in North London for about 15 years, so they were more-or-less my local team) I'd say we put Spurs way above Man U on the dislike stakes. 

I do, of course, not <cough> support, Man Utd either, but that is because my sister's useless ex was a huge fan of theirs. She of course is a massive Chelsea supporter, so EPL is fun for us


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## Montero (Dec 5, 2022)

At the height of football violence, a friend had an American visitor, who said "ooh, fancy a nice Saturday out, I've bought a ticket for a football match" - it was one of the big London clubs, can't remember which. Friend explained very carefully it wasn't like American Football it was soccer, that he'd be standing all the time, on concrete terraces, exposed to the weather. American visitor went anyway and came back in shock. Not what he was used to at all.


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