# Golden Compass - spoilers (book and movie) discussion



## Legolas (Sep 7, 2002)

*Northern Lights?*

I heard a whisper that Northern Lights by Philip Pullman is going to be made into a film. ANyone know anything else about it?
:flash:


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## Tabitha (Sep 8, 2002)

Sorry Leggy, doesn't ring any bells for me, but I will have a bit of a dig and see if I can turn anything up.


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## Dave (Feb 5, 2004)

Is that part of 'His Dark Materials' series? Isn't there already some kind of stage play running in London?

With the hype over Harry Potter, I would expect a mad scramble for the rights to those Philip Pullman books.

edit: Yes, the play is at the National Theatre and tickets are completely sold out.

http://www.nt-online.org/?lid=6158


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## Tabitha (Feb 6, 2004)

Northern Lights is the first book in the series.  I haven't read the next two, but I found the first one a little disappointing.  But I would definitely have liked to see a stage adaption - pity it is sold out, as I will be visiting London next month and was planning to take in a show.


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## b71nky (May 7, 2007)

*His dark materials movie*

Uh-Oh. Does anyone else feel that they are going to stuff this one up, like for example _A Series of Unfortunate Events, _A great series but truly terrible movie. There are so many ways they could ruin the movie, like turning it into a little kids movie.


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## Lenny (May 7, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

If whoever is writing the script goes and starts to use material from the other books, then the film will be nowhere near as good as it could be. I don't care if the scriptwriter is some unknown, or Philip Pullman - there's no point in changing things for the first film, because by the time the third film is being written, things will have changed so dramatically that it won't be His Dark Materials any more.

I agree with you on SoUE - again, they brought things in from other books, mashed them together, and produced something awful.

And the same happened with the Alex Rider film - Sabine Pleasure? In _Stormbreaker_?!


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## Sathai (May 7, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Anyone know when it's coming out and who is the cast?


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## Culhwch (May 7, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

I didn't mind the Lemony Snicket film, though I saw it before I read the books. But in that case if they had just stuck to the first book, it would have been a very short film, so I understand why they 'mashed' them together.

As far as _His Dark Materials_ goes, I'm hoping for a good outcome. I believe Daniel Craig and Nicole Kidman have been cast as the two leading adults. Beyond that I'm not sure...


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## that old guy (May 18, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Sathai said:


> Anyone know when it's coming out and who is the cast?


 

His Dark Materials: The Golden Compass (2007)

IMDB is your friend.  Dec 7 07 as of right now, with the cast listed. 

If you run the slideshow the only thing you can tell for sure is that they aren't doing it on the cheap. Nicole Kidman looks she'll make a good villain.

To be honest with you I didn't care for the books, but this adaptation looks like it might be pretty good.


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## Sathai (May 18, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Thanks that old guy. I agree, Nicole Kidman looks like she'll be good in it.


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## (-Haunted Willow-) (May 20, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

This doesn't look like it'll be too bad, and I didn't mind the Snickett film either, it wasn't too loyal to the books and pretty much missed out book 2, but I liked it.


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## Munkeygames (May 21, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

I heard that they have taken out all references to God in the Films to appease the American market. So think if you love the books this film may annoy the hell out of you. However that said I really want to see an Amoured Bear


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## Ragnar (May 22, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Munkeygames said:


> I heard that they have taken out all references to God in the Films to appease the American market. So think if you love the books this film may annoy the hell out of you.


 
I've heard the same thing - it kind of removes the entire point of the story.


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## Majimaune (May 22, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

I think that they will do a botch job of it but I will still see it sometime.

I wonder who Eric Banna is going to be playing, it doesn't say. There seems to be a lot of people I have never heard of in the cast though. Also Eva Green and Daniel Creig will be in the same movie again.


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## Culhwch (May 22, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Just been looking around the official site: 

The Golden Compass

Looking very promising, indeed. Though I hope some of the daemon pics are works in progress. I agree with Munkeygames, though: can't wait to see the armoured bears.

Plus there's a great little quiz to see what your daemon would be. Mine's an ermine named Sophistra...


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## Munkeygames (May 22, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Wicked! I have a Snow Leopard called Aurora


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## Sathai (May 22, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Cool quiz. My daemon is a crow named Alvin.


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## Majimaune (May 23, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Yeah the armoured bears will be cool.

My deamon is a Snow Leopard called Vyena


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## Lenny (May 23, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

IGN: The Golden Compass Video 1999736

1:32 - armoured bear.

Looks rather good, the film, doesn't it?

Don't see why it can't be called "Northern Lights", though... makes more sense.


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## Winters_Sorrow (May 23, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Culhwch said:


> I didn't mind the Lemony Snicket film, though I saw it before I read the books.


 
Ditto and I haven't read this either so I'll be going in just looking for a good movie rather than one which closely follows the book. Most films take diabolical liberties filming a novel so it's to be expected.
Ultimately, this will be judged on it's success as a movie not on how faithful an adaption it is - some may see it as the same thing but it's not.


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## Briareus Delta (May 23, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

If Hollywood is involved, then no doubt it will be a major ****-up, along the lines of Lord of The Rings. And, as for removing references to God (or The Authority), words fail me.   Have they actually read the book?

Like LOTR, it will be a good-looking film, with major plot changes and probably missing the whole point of the book.  I hope I'm wrong, but suspect not.


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## Majimaune (May 24, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Looks like we have a couple of LotR fans in this thread...

I hope your wrong as well. I am waiting for the trailer to buffer so I can watch it. Might take a while though so I will post what I think of it tomorrow.


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## Culhwch (May 24, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Lenny said:


> Don't see why it can't be called "Northern Lights", though... makes more sense.


 
Yeah, me either... At the very least you'd think they'd have done what they did with the first Potter and go with _The Golden Compass _in the States, _Northern Lights _everywhere else.

Watched the behind-the-scenes footage on the official site, and now the teaser trailer... Looks great. I never pictured Lee Scoresby as being so old, but otherwise looks suitably lavish. Can't wait.


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## Majimaune (May 25, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Yeah after watching the trailer I thought it will be an awesome movie but I too never thought of Lee Scoresby so old as well. I always pictured him young and youthful.


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## Culhwch (May 25, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Majimaune said:


> Yeah after watching the trailer I thought it will be an awesome movie but I too never thought of Lee Scoresby so old as well. I always pictured him young and youthful.


 
I was thinking more mid-forties and world-weary, but not grey and grisled. That said Sam Elliott is a fine actor and from the few short clips in the trailer seems to have a good handle on the character. I'll be a tough judge when it opens though - Lee Scoresby is one of my all-time favourite characters, from any book.


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## Majimaune (May 26, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Yeah he is one of my favourites as well. I see you changed your avatar, very fitting for this thread.


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## Culhwch (May 26, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Yah, got caught up in the hype...


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## Majimaune (May 27, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Ahh right...


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## Rane Longfox (May 27, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

I think they should do a decent job of this, especially after watching the trailer.

I saw the two-part stage adaptation that was done a few years ago, and it was really excellent - seems like Pullman has got his hands firmly on the steering wheel as far as adaptations go, which is always a good sign


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## Majimaune (May 27, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

That is a good sign if the auther is hands on because it is alway better that way.


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## Lenny (May 27, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Not always... *Stormbreaker* turned out to be complete rubbish, yet Horowitz had quite a bit to do with the script.


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## Majimaune (May 28, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Well it _should_ be better with the auther on hand. Hitchhickers was good because of the radio script.


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## Culhwch (May 28, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Actually, I'm sure I read that Pullman has had little to do with the adaptation... I'll try and track that down.


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## Majimaune (May 28, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

If you can I would be grateful.


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## Culhwch (May 28, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



> ...Pullman mentioned that he would not be meddling in the creative process...


 
From: His Dark Materials.org | Essays | Why Their Dark Materials Might Not Be Your Dark Materials

Not much more detail there, on that aspect at least. I'm sure I read it elsewhere, though.


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## Majimaune (May 29, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Hmm interesting...very interesting...


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## Allegra (May 31, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



that old guy said:


> His Dark Materials: The Golden Compass (2007)
> 
> IMDB is your friend.  Dec 7 07 as of right now, with the cast listed.
> 
> ...


 
Yes I think Kidman is perfect for Coulter. What Kevin Bacon and John Hurt doing in the cast? Voice for dæmons?


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## Majimaune (Jun 1, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Maybe...


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## j d worthington (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Well, here's a clip I came across:

The Golden Compass - Trailer Download, View Trailers


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## Teresa Edgerton (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

I was a bit disappointed in the first book, consequently didn't go on to read the other two (although I've read and liked other things by Pullman, and never actually made up my mind _not_ to read the rest of the trilogy, it just hasn't happened), but I must say that the trailer I saw a few weeks ago makes me very eager to see the movie.  It looks like, if nothing else, it is going to be visually stunning.


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## Allegra (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

The trailer looks really good. Thanks J.D. Yes I'm looking forward to it!


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## Majimaune (Jul 31, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

You know (I don't want to say this to sound mean or anything, I want to see it too) they always put the best parts of a movie in the shorts...what if the rest of the movie is really bad.


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## Fried Egg (Aug 6, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Munkeygames said:


> I heard that they have taken out all references to God in the Films to appease the American market. So think if you love the books this film may annoy the hell out of you. However that said I really want to see an Amoured Bear


I might be wrong, but if I remember correctly, Pullman never referred to God as "God" in the books, only the "Authority", so I don't think that'll matter. Although the inference is crystal clear and I can see why it could well upset a few christians...



Spoiler



Especially the scene where God (at the end) is seen as a pathetic, helpless old man/angel and is devoured by cliff-ghasts.


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## Connavar (Aug 6, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

I saw the trailer and it looked pretty good.

Since i havent read the books i dont care how much they change.

Its hollywood from this kind of movie the best you can hope for is a visual feast and alittle decent story.

Great actors like Craig,Kidman should make the story alittle better 

Must say the world and the animals thing reminded me alittle of Narnia i hope it as good as that movie.


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## Soggyfox (Aug 6, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Connavar of Rigante said:


> Great actors like Craig,Kidman should make the story alittle better


 
be careful there, Malkovich and Carlyle didn't do anything for Eragon.


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## Connavar (Aug 6, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Yeah but thats Eragon it was clichè feast from the start before hollywood people touched it.


Plus in a min of the trailer you could see it wouldnt be nearly as bad as Eragon.


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## Majimaune (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Soggyfox said:


> be careful there, Malkovich and Carlyle didn't do anything for Eragon.


Eragon was a bad book and you can't do anything with bad books.



Connavar of Rigante said:


> Plus in a min of the trailer you could see it wouldnt be nearly as bad as Eragon.


Damn right.


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## purple_kathryn (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

I think if you failed to like LotR because you don't think they did a very good adaption of the book then I think it's going to be safe to say that you are not going to like any movie based on a book you've read.

I'm looking forward to the Northern Lights (which btw I cannot seem to call the Golden Compass).  Fortunately it's been a while since I've read the books so I've forgotten pretty much everything about them - except that I liked them


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## Soggyfox (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Majimaune said:


> Eragon was a bad book and you can't do anything with bad books.


 
i don't know about that, seems a little harsh, predictable maybe but it was enjoyable.


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## purple_kathryn (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Soggyfox said:


> i don't know about that, seems a little harsh, predictable maybe but it was enjoyable.


 
It had Jeremy Irons in it!

Nothing can be unwatchable if it had Jeremy Irons in it


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## Soggyfox (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



purple_kathryn said:


> It had Jeremy Irons in it!
> 
> Nothing can be unwatchable if it had Jeremy Irons in it


 
as i said Robert Cralyle and John Malkovich, seems the went all CGI and forgot about something called a script. Some of it was truly dire and way off the book.


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## Majimaune (Aug 8, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



purple_kathryn said:


> I'm looking forward to the Northern Lights (which btw I cannot seem to call the Golden Compass).


I can't seem to call it that either. I seem to force myself if I do.


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## Connavar (Aug 10, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Its not only you guys alot of people get confused by the name.

I had to wiki it up to see what the series was really called.


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## purple_kathryn (Aug 11, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Connavar of Rigante said:


> Its not only you guys alot of people get confused by the name.
> 
> I had to wiki it up to see what the series was really called.


 
Oh well i know the name of the series all right and it's not that I'm confused by the names it's just that I find it hard to bring myself to call it the Golden Compass.


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## ice.monkey (Aug 11, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Just saw the trailer and I'm looking forward to this. I've given up ever seeing a really good adaptation of a book and just treat films as completely separate entities. The books are always, always, far better than the films and the two are completely separate mediums so there'll always be vast differences.

The trailer does look good and the armoured bear (one of my favourite things from the books) does look cool. I want one. I want one now!

But I'm not certain about the actress who's portraying Lyra. She wasn't particularly convincing in the trailers - her lines were very flat. Well that's how it seemed to me. Hopefully she'll come across better in the movie itself.

Oh, well, we'll see...


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## Connavar (Aug 11, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



purple_kathryn said:


> Oh well i know the name of the series all right and it's not that I'm confused by the names it's just that I find it hard to bring myself to call it the Golden Compass.



I knew the book series by name cause its pretty famous but i thought the movie was totaly new and not a book cause of the movie's name.


I only saw with wiki that its the same as the book series.


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## Culhwch (Oct 13, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

The Golden Compass trailers and video clips on Yahoo! Movies

The newest _The Golden Compass _trailer. Still looking quite good, though I thought whoever they had doing the stand-in voice for Iorek in the teaser sounded far more suited to be an ice-bear than Ian McKellan. I don't know, McKellan just seems to smack of stunt casting to me. He's not gruff enough for Iorek. Hopefully in the fullness of the film he proves me wrong.


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## Majimaune (Oct 14, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Hmm I think Sir Ian is the wrong choice.


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## Connavar (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

What is Ian Mckellan play a bear, why?......

I actually saw a talking bear in the trailer that must be Iorek.

Unless the armoured Bears can change to human form which i havent seen can happen in the first book atleast, its a stupid idea no matter how great the actor is.  Why not a CCI bear.....


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## Majimaune (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Yeah thats what I thought, must be Iorek.


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## Culhwch (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Connavar of Rigante said:


> What is Ian Mckellan play a bear, why?......
> 
> I actually saw a talking bear in the trailer that must be Iorek.
> 
> Unless the armoured Bears can change to human form which i havent seen can happen in the first book atleast, its a stupid idea no matter how great the actor is. Why not a CCI bear.....


 
Err, it is a CGI bear, as per the trailer, _voiced_ by Ian McKellan...


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## Majimaune (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Yeah of course its a CG bear.


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## Connavar (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Culhwch said:


> Err, it is a CGI bear, as per the trailer, _voiced_ by Ian McKellan...



Well i wasnt sure having only read the first book so far.  How do i know if the bear can change forms or not ? Alot wierder things happen in the book.


Its even more pointless having that great of an actor play a CGI bear. 

But he does have a cool voice.


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## Majimaune (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

His voice is good but I don't think it will be the right one.


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## GOLLUM (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

My Brisbane mate has already posted the extended trailer, I thought it looked quite good. I'll be attending in December to see whether it stacks up...


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## Majimaune (Oct 18, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

I agree with you Gollum. I too will be attending it, on Boxing Day if possible. Miss out on a couple of hours of the cricket.


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## Marky Lazer (Oct 18, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

I've only read the stage screenplay, not the books. But if the movie's going to be based on the stage SP, it ought to be quite good.


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## Majimaune (Oct 18, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Haven't read the stage one. Where might I be able to get it from? Any bookshop or should I order it online?


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## Marky Lazer (Oct 18, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

This isthe one I got:
Amazon.com: His Dark Materials: Books: Philip Pullman,Nicholas Wright


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## Majimaune (Oct 18, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Alright. Will remember about it and get it when I have the money.


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## Marky Lazer (Oct 19, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

The website is looking quiet flashy I have to say:
The Golden Compass


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## Majimaune (Oct 19, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

I don't like the name Golden Compass cause every time I say Northern Lights my friends are like what? and so I have to go and say Golden Compass. Its annoying.

Very fancy and I have only seen the first page so far. Chose 'English'


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## Marky Lazer (Oct 19, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

I think they have to name it Golden Compass because otherwise the Americans won't understand it, and them Yankees are the biggest chunk of the market anyways.


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## Majimaune (Oct 19, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Yeah but it could have had a different name for us people who are smart.


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## Connavar (Oct 19, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Marky Lazer said:


> I think they have to name it Golden Compass because otherwise the Americans won't understand it, and them Yankees are the biggest chunk of the market anyways.




Not really.  

Its good for the hype to do well in US.  But also world wide box office will make a movie a hit or not.


For example Bourne did better in europe than he did in US with Ultimatum.


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## GOLLUM (Oct 20, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*



Majimaune said:


> I agree with you Gollum. I too will be attending it, on Boxing Day if possible. Miss out on a couple of hours of the cricket.


Meh...I'll go after the day's play to the night session...


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## Majimaune (Oct 20, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

That sounds pretty good too. If I have to work then I'll go with friends after work.


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## The_Warrior (Oct 20, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Everonees is deeply hoping that this will worck out (meaning the fuilm) They've had trouble with hiring the director and things. So I hopwe this will do beter then the E (Shudders) movie.


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## Majimaune (Oct 20, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Oh I think we all hope that it will do better then that horrible piece of sh*t


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## orionsixwings (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

The thing with this book series is that the plotline is quite complex -- it's not just  GOOD vs EVIL kind of plot.  Philip Pullman, being the athiest that he is, I think intended the book to raise questions about religious faith, the concept of existence and co-existence, the Universe, and God while being very entertaining as well.  There are also parts of the book that are too disturbing or too difficult to put into film without compromising integrity or risking a cut because it's too brutal or a change in the rating because it's not suitable for all ages.  (Though the book itself is surprisingly (and questionably) in the YA section of bookstores just because the protagonists are "children.)

Remember that the production team is NewLine, and the special effects team are the same ones that were behind LOTR so expect a visual masterpiece. Plus the actors are superb!  Except for the main character-Lyra Belacqua-almost all the characters was assigned to a Class A actor:  Nicole Kidman (Marissa Coulter), Daniel Craig (Asriel), Eva Green (Serafina Pekkala), Ian McKellen (Iorek), Sam Elliott (Lee Scorsbee) to name a few.  Dakota Blue Richards seems to be a good pick--again, NewLine is very good in choosing actors and the way they searched for Lyra was quite extensive.  Plus, Philip himself had a say in the choosing and he said that Dakota Blue was exactly how he pictured Lyra.

I'm expecting this to become one of my favorite film collections.


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## The_Warrior (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Thank you! For putting alot of my thoughts I had for this, (after finishing the first voulume) in words! Much of what you explained was prettty close to my thoughts.


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## Majimaune (Oct 28, 2007)

*Re: His dark materials movie*

Orion, long time no see. Your posts are still full of greatness though.


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## Thadlerian (Dec 11, 2007)

OK, now that people have started getting to see the adaption of Pullman's The Golden Compass, it should be time to get a discussion on the movie content/execution up and running.

I did not hate this movie, because it did not disappoint me. It did not disappoint me, because I had expected absolutely nothing from it. The trailer and the news bits had it spelled out pretty clear from the start: Entertainment. Still, I think it would be fitting to discuss some of the more provocative elements of the adaption.

My major gripes with this movie are the following:

*1: The ideas*
Sometimes, I want to agree with literature snobs; those who say that Fantasy is childish escapism,not worthy of the term "literature". But then I recall what Fantasy can do that ordinary fiction can't: This genre (along with SF) can take those ideas that are bigger that individual human beings, and explore them fully and completely unhindered. And, more than any other Fantasy book brought to my attention, _this_ is what Pullman's _His Dark Materials_ is about. Ideas.

The movie has been completely stripped of them. We're left with some generic evil totalitarian regime without motivations. All the reasons and explanations have been watered down to some bland free will vs. slavery dichotomy, which we've all seen so many times that it's impossible to take it seriously.

Without the ideas, what is the meaning of telling the story of The Golden Compass? What is the meaning of this movie?

*2: The ending*
The ending makes sense. If the purpose is to fit this story into the over-used blockbuster movie model, then it makes perfectly sense to have a happy+expectant ending, and spare us for the heart-wrenching scene which concludes the book. See the previous point: What is the meaning of this movie? To tell the story, or to punch the story's superficial appearance into the shape demanded by the blockbuster?

According to IMDB:


> The events which comprise the final portion of the first book had been already filmed, and brief portions can be glimpsed in the trailers. However, the scenes were removed. According to several reviews: "'There was tremendous marketing pressure for that,' Weitz said. 'Everyone really wanted an upbeat ending.'" These scenes will be the first portion of the sequel, The Subtle Knife, if/when that movie is made.


Take the quotes from this paragraph, replace "Weitz" with "Ridley Scott", and pretend that this thread is about Blade Runner. See?

*3: The prohpecy*
The book introduced the witches' prophecy a good while into the story. At this point, the plot is already moving ahead at full speed, because of Lyra's actions and choices. In the movie, the prophecy is introduced practically from frame #1. In the movie, the story is powered nearly completely by determinism: Stuff happens because outside forces set things in motion. And having the prophecy introduced from the start legitimizes this setting; stuff happens because it says so in the prophecy.

Example:
In the book, Lyra flees from Mrs. Coulter's apartment during a cocktail party. She goes unnoticed, and is not directly threatened: She leaves on her own accord, having made the choice.

In the movie, Lyra flees from Mrs. Coulter's apartment when the golden monkey finds the alethiometer, and she's being confronted with Mrs. Coulter. Lyra is directly threatened. She is being chased out through a window, and leaves because she has no choice.

*4: Lord Asriel*
Related to my point about the ending. This way, we don't get to know his true nature. Now he's just some Uncle Treasure Hunter - charming and completely un-challenging to relate to.

Lord Asriel of the book is a bad, bad man - and an excellent character. He dominates everyone he meets. His behaviour towards Lyra is violent and threatening, but sometimes he is an excellent teacher. The key word for this character is _power_. Daniel Craig gives him no power at all. Perhaps this kind of character is impossible to act? I don't think so. I don't think this has anything to do with Craig's capabilities, it is yet again because the script has been watered down to something universally acceptable.

*5: Pantalaimon and dæmons in general*
From the very beginning of the book, we get to know Lyra's dæmon, Pan, as a bossy voice of conscience, of common sense against Lyra's impulses. He does not hestitate to raise his voice against her, to at least attempt to take a position as an authority, to criticize. 

Like Lord Asriel, the movie Pantalaimon has been watered down to something funny and harmless. He's the Disney talking animal. A pet and nothing more.

The pet impression continues towards the end of the movie: Lyra is certain that something can be done to help the kids who had their dæmons cut away. Again, watering down of central elements, and another verification that the dæmon is nothing more than the Disney sidekick.


That's it for now.

Shall we try to keep this thread free from superficial, obvious remarks like


			
				Movie Fan said:
			
		

> But you always *have to* alter some things to adapt a book into a movie


Most of the points I have mentioned could easily have been implemented with hardly any prolonging of the running time.


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## Dave (Dec 11, 2007)

Until I read what you posted I _had_ thought it was a fairly faithful adaptation, but I can't fault what you said, and I guess it is too long ago since I read the books. I had forgotten that Lyra ran away _during_ the cocktail party. 

Your comments from *Movie Fan* are still true in regard to time constraints though, and also I think there was some heavy pressure to water down this film for it to be successful.


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## Thadlerian (Dec 11, 2007)

No, you were right in that other thread, it _is_ a very faithful adaption. Far more so than I had expected. But I feel that only applies to the story on the surface. I feel a major problem of this movie was that the director's ambition and external pressure, rather than structural and "physical" constraints, were the determinants for the strong simplification.


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## Dave (Dec 12, 2007)

I saw a TV programme about 'The Making of...." and Philip Pullman was there in the background in almost every shot. He was heavily involved in the design of props, taking the prop-designers to the museum of antiquities in Oxford, where he first had the idea for the Aleithiometer. So, either he was satisfied with the way the film was made, or, he just gave away too much control to the director and filmmakers. JK Rowling very forcefully insisted that much of Harry Potter was not changed, but I've heard many an author complaining about giving away their soul to the devil when they handed over the film rights of their book (for a substantial sum of money of course.) Unless you write the screenplay yourself (and even then....) I'm not sure you can ever prevent this. We've discussed in other threads here how Books and Films are not the same thing. What works in one does not work in another, and vice versa, so authors have to let filmmakers do what they think is best and hope they know what they are doing.


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## Overread (Dec 12, 2007)

hmm Dave - that reminds me of the poor Earthsea series(it too early for me to spell author names) - first there was the atrocity that was Sci-Fi channels attempt and more recently the less atrotious, but equally un-easthsea like Studio Ghibli production - thus it is a darn sight better than what SiFi made (didn't that get official unlicenced or something?)


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## Lith (Jan 5, 2008)

I'm only going to address point one as I haven't seen the movie (and the thread title says book and movie). Fantasy's an ideal genre for philosophical discussion of ideas, but the funny thing here is that Pullman rests so wholly on the Romantics, which unless you want to class them as fantasy (or proto-fantasy), they're usually considered literature, and _not_ fantasy. At least not genre fantasy, which is typically little more than escapism. 

I'm not going particularly anywhere with this, just making an observation.


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## Overread (Jan 5, 2008)

you confuse me there Lith?
Fantasy and romace are not linked? 
please expand more on this idea - how many tales have a prince after a maiden - how many deal with love 
I would consider romance part of fantasy in most cases


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## Lith (Jan 5, 2008)

The two ARE linked. But the Romantics are bona fide literature, while genre fantasy is still on the outs for the literary snobs. 

Or do you mean _romance_? I'm talking of the Romantics, the Romantic movement in Europe- mostly Blake, Shelley, Keats, Coleridge. Their work is not strictly fantasy, though it borders on it at times. Nor is it romantic as we understand it today- not really sure how it garned the name "Romantic", but their work typically is based on a love of experience over reason and an appeal to the senses (sensualism, but again not as we understand the term today). Shelley, at least, believed in a sort of atheistic Pantheism which Pullman seems to follow closely.


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## Mary Hoffman (Jan 6, 2008)

It's Milton that Pullman claims as his inspiration, which is where the phrase "His Dark Materials" comes from (Paradise Lost), not the Romantic poets who also include Wordsworth and Byron. Milton was 200 years earlier.

Mary


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## Lith (Jan 6, 2008)

Milton shaped the _book_, but Shelley seems to have had more of a hand in shaping his _thought_.  However, Shelley's worship of Milton somewhat mutes the distinction. Not just Shelley either (though he was _as far as I know_ the first to actually proclaim atheism), but all the romantics- Milton was a sort of prophet for them, though he didn't know it.


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## roddglenn (Feb 20, 2008)

I managed to see this the other night and was pleasantly impressed with it.  Dakota Blue Richards who plays Lyra was very good, as was the rest of the supporting cast - Daniel Craig (not in it much, but was great when on screen), Sam Elliot (always brilliant), Nicole Kidman (a lot better than I thought she'd be and a more complex baddie than I thought she would be too), Sir Ian McKellen (his voice is well suited for Lorek's character), Eva Green (sufficiently tantalising), Ian McShane (didn't recognise his voice at the time as Ragnar) and many more. 

In comparing it to the other major fantasy film around the same time, I thought it was a bit darker than Stardust with less of the comic element, which worked well.  The effects were all excellent - the polar bear fight in particular was very well done.  The story rattled along at a good pace and having not read the book, I felt it held together well without any major plot holes or anything.

Overall a very enjoyable film and I'll look forward to the next installment.


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## Urien (Jun 15, 2009)

I saw the movie for the first time last night. I felt it had been defanged. Religion was played down, the bad guys appeared shockingly incompetent, the consequences of cutting away of the daemons was watered down, Lord Asriel was a twinkly eyed good guy. I felt the prologue was an error (as it gave away some of the key elements), there were so many info dumps the film was getting toxic. I agree that the prophecy should have been front and centre.

But perhaps key to it all was why... why was the magisterium doing these things, what was the problem with dust... what was dust? I didn't see the strong motivations for action.

Good points: McKellen did well as Iorek. Kidman and Craig looked attractive. The twist on London was reasonably well done. The CGI was quite good in parts, in that the animals (daemons and bears) didn't have the cartoony aspect of too flexible movement that CGI sometimes gives (see Underworld).


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## Allegra (Jun 15, 2009)

Urien said:


> I saw the movie for the first time last night. I felt it had been defanged. Religion was played down, the bad guys appeared shockingly incompetent, the consequences of cutting away of the daemons was watered down, Lord Asriel was a twinkly eyed good guy.


 
'Defanged' is the word, for marketing reasons obviously. Since I liked the books very much I was quite disappointed in the film and not really looking forward to the sequels. Sam Elliott's Lee Scoresby is excellent, though.


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## Moonbat (Jun 15, 2009)

I have to admit I was pleasantly surprised at the film, I had heard that 'they' had watered down the religious overtones, but I couldn't understand how they could possibly complete the trilogy if they water down the central theme.
They rushed through the film, (it always seems that way with book to film adaptations) not stopping long enough to really tel the story. Luckily (for hollywood) there was enough action and story line to fill a two hour movie.
I thought Daniel Craig was a bit too nice, he's not supposed to be nice at all for the first film. Sometimes its so insulting to film goers that Hollywood dumbs and waters down everything to the lowest common denomiator.

I really enjoyed the scene in the last book where He dies. I thought that was beautiful and wonderfully written, but I can't see them going that far, or at least not expressing that it is Him and merely making Him an angel or daemon or something less almighty. But that scene for me and the innocence behind it was the culmination of the books for me, I look forward to being hugely dissapointed with the rest of the trilogy. If it ever gets made.


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## AE35Unit (Jun 15, 2009)

I've not read the books so I can't compare but I found the movie a boring yawn fest.


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## Moonbat (Jun 15, 2009)

Yup, I think I only enjoyed the movie because I could relate it (not very well) with the book.


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