# Avatar, Space Opera or not?



## ErikB (Sep 25, 2016)

Just curious as to whether folks on this site would consider the movie "Avatar" to be a space opera or is there some other genre or sub genre that is better suited to describe this movie?

What is your opinion?

Thanks and Cheers!


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## Elventine (Sep 25, 2016)

I would say that it is much more fantasy than sci-fi and defiantly not a space opera. At a stretch I would call it science fantasy.


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## BAYLOR (Sep 25, 2016)

An allegory for environmentalism ?


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## Vertigo (Sep 25, 2016)

I'm not sure what I would call it (other than an appallingly bad movie) but certainly not space opera; there is almost no action taking place in space. In fact is there any?


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## ErikB (Sep 25, 2016)

I asked because there seems to be a bit of liberalism taken in describing what constitutes a space opera depending on whom you look to as a reference source. 

Certainly Star Wars is a classic space opera as is Battlestar Galactica, Enders Game, and Star Trek. But Dune is also often described as a Space Opera even though most of it centers on the planet Arakis. 

I did some studying of the definition of Space Opera and even the root to the person who first coined the term. From what I can gather the genre applies to a story predominantly occurring in space in which there is a lot of action, a strong degree of drama, and an expectation of epic or classic resolution to the conflict. 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Avatar's status. 

Cheers!


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## ErikB (Sep 25, 2016)

Vertigo said:


> I'm not sure what I would call it (other than an appalling bad movie) but certainly not space opera; there is almost no action taking place in space. In fact is there any?



"Appalling bad"? Hmmm... new one on me, but to each their own. 

That said I agree that the act of showing humans arriving at a planet and then everything taking place on that world doesn't seem to meet the criteria from my standpoint either. 

Cheers!


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## Vertigo (Sep 25, 2016)

ErikB said:


> I asked because there seems to be a bit of liberalism taken in describing what constitutes a space opera depending on whom you look to as a reference source.
> 
> Certainly Star Wars is a classic space opera as is Battlestar Galactica, Enders Game, and Star Trek. But Dune is also often described as a Space Opera even though most of it centers on the planet Arakis.
> 
> ...


That description pretty much covers what I consider to be space opera. And I certainly wouldn't consider Dune to be space opera for the same reasons I wouldn't consider Avatar to be. I suspect some people might latch onto the 'opera' part and feel that Dune does have a bit of that operatic, melodramatic feel to it. In fact I guess it fits the description in every respect other than not happening in space, but that is pretty much a defining part of what space opera is, or at least so I would have thought.

And sorry about my comment on the qualities of Avatar but I really think the only thing going for it was the impressive visuals.


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## ErikB (Sep 25, 2016)

Vertigo said:


> That description pretty much covers what I consider to be space opera. And I certainly wouldn't consider Dune to be space opera for the same reasons I wouldn't consider Avatar to be. I suspect some people might latch onto the 'opera' part and feel that Dune does have a bit of that operatic, melodramatic feel to it. In fact I guess it fits the description in every respect other than not happening in space, but that is pretty much a defining part of what space opera is, or at least so I would have thought.
> 
> And sorry about my comment on the qualities of Avatar but I really think the only thing going for it was the impressive visuals.



No worries. You are entitled to like or dislike anything just like any of us. I never heard anyone describe it as appaling is all. I know a few people who did not like it as much as they had hoped to. But that's neither here nor there...

The space opera thing just had me curious as to how far that definition would go. I think that the drama aspect must take place more in space than on any one world.


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## Elventine (Sep 25, 2016)

Vertigo said:


> I'm not sure what I would call it (other than an appallingly bad movie) but certainly not space opera; there is almost no action taking place in space. In fact is there any?


 Nope..


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## Elventine (Sep 25, 2016)

I have to say that I really liked the movie... better than the original show!


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## Venusian Broon (Sep 25, 2016)

Dune eventually becomes Space Opera, I feel. But you have to read to at least book 5 - _Heretics of Dune_ and then he starts switching about different worlds.

Avatar would be, for me, Sci-Fi or perhaps SF fantasy as @Elventine stated. (although I've never really used the term SF Fantasy, nor did I come across it in the decades before I joined this forum in all my SFF reading, so I find it a bit odd.)

_My _definition of Space Opera is

1) A mixture of fantasy and SF - does not need to be fifty/fifty but can vary wildly - but there must be recognisable elements of both.
2) A very large canvass for the plot and settings - usually galactic but I'd let it go if there is at least a few star systems. If it is set only on one world - Nope!

Not bothered about it being in Space. Although invariably spacecraft feature heavily!

Pertinent Example - most of Iain M. Bank's culture novels are Space Opera...however _The Player of Games, _being restricted in where the character goes does seem to be more of a 'SF' novel.

Anyway just my opinion. Discussions about what a sub-genre really is, can be fun, but generally a bit pointless as everyone has their own distinct views. Much easier to just group books/films into 'bad' and 'good' I've found.


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## HareBrain (Sep 25, 2016)

Elventine said:


> I have to say that I really liked the movie... better than the original show!



Original show? You're not thinking of the other Avatar? (The Airbender Aang one?)

(Apologies if I've completely missed something.)


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## ErikB (Sep 25, 2016)

HareBrain said:


> Original show? You're not thinking of the other Avatar? (The Airbender Aang one?)
> 
> (Apologies if I've completely missed something.)



No, not the Airbender one. The global all time highest money earner sci fi film.


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## HareBrain (Sep 25, 2016)

ErikB said:


> No, not the Airbender one. The global all time highest money earner sci fi film.



Sure, I know the thread is about that. I was speculating about Elventine's comment that mentioned the "original show". As far as I know, there was no show on which the Cameron film was based.


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## Elventine (Sep 25, 2016)

HareBrain said:


> Original show? You're not thinking of the other Avatar? (The Airbender Aang one?)
> 
> (Apologies if I've completely missed something.)



Ai all these movies with the same title! I got completely mixed up!


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## Overread (Sep 25, 2016)

Avatar is a space action flick to me. 

It's not space opera, indeed I don't think we've ever really had a space opera film since possibly starwars. I'd also argue that Lord of the Rings is possibly the only Grand/epic/whatever fantasy film series we've ever really had. 

The cinema doesn't actually do operatic or grand all that well because such stories require BIG casts with large storylines that are very very hard to squeeze into a single film; or even into a couple. I'd say most cases where people argue that there's an operatic style film are often films that follow from TV series which already establish much of the lore or films which have huge battles but might only have a couple of core characters (which can be operatic style battles but just not got the characters and further political and feel of being operatic in style


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## Elventine (Sep 25, 2016)

Now that I know WHICH Avatar we are talking about... I agree that it is much more of an action movie set on an alien planet than a Space Opera to me. The elements within follow the arc of an action, hero, adventure type movie than anything else.


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## Venusian Broon (Sep 25, 2016)

Overread said:


> It's not space opera, indeed I don't think we've ever really had a space opera film since possibly starwars.



Just off the top of my head, I'd say _The Chronicles of Riddick_ was Space Opera. 

Also it was a pile of monkey poo, but that's just my opinion.


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## Elventine (Sep 25, 2016)

Riddick was not that bad! I rather enjoyed them...


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## Ray Pullar (Sep 26, 2016)

Avatar is a planetary romance like Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom stories featuring John Carter.  The significant action takes place entirely on one alien world e.g. Jack Vance's Tschai books.  Avatar also draws upon le Guin's Word for world is forest and Macaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern series.  Whether easy and fast galactic space-travel exists is largely irrelevant.


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## Venusian Broon (Sep 26, 2016)

Elventine said:


> Riddick was not that bad! I rather enjoyed them...


 It had it's moments, but it was such a let down after _Pitch Black _


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## Elventine (Sep 26, 2016)

Venusian Broon said:


> It had it's moments, but it was such a let down after _Pitch Black _



Oh yeah Pitch Black was the worst on of the lot. But Chronicles and the after it were good.


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## Overread (Sep 26, 2016)

Eh Riddick isn't really space opera in my book; but its certainly one of the very few that isn't starwars/startek that has a long continuity. I liked what they've done with it though there's a few scene cuts in the second film that annoy me (ergo when he escapes the Necromunga ship the first time; we see him start his escape and then suddenly he's out of the ship; away from the whole army and being chased by only one troop-transport. 

But to me Riddick is not quite operatic. It's more a space-hero story (or anti-hero although in truth he's really not as neutral/evil as he makes out). It could become operatic; but would need more supporting characters and bigger events (to me space opera needs to affect more than one planet).


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## Venusian Broon (Sep 26, 2016)

Overread said:


> (to me space opera needs to affect more than one planet).



That's why it's Space Opera for me - it directly shows three different worlds and hints at a lot more, what with some weirdos on some sort of perpetual crusade. And given that it follows on from the events of the much better _Pitch Black - _well there's a wide universe out there.


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## Overread (Sep 26, 2016)

True, but most of the worlds visited are pretty barren (actually barring the Holy world all the worlds are barren barring a handful of people). Furthermore whilst the Necromungas are a galactic force we only see their influence upon one world. I think if we saw them conducting their campaign over multiple worlds within the actual film itself and got a sense for a true epic scale war; not just one world against a fleet but multiple - then we might be pushing closer toward opera. 

Thing is the story will revolve around Riddick which tends to mean it leans closer toward action than toward operatic.


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## Ray Pullar (Sep 27, 2016)

One of the features of planetary romance (see sf-encyclopedia.com for a THEME page discussion) is that the planet is special - not simply a rock or even earth-like.  Arrakis is the sole source of spice-melange;  Pandora is a sentient, communal organism.  Also: the story is not hard-sf.


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## BAYLOR (Sep 30, 2016)

There's no singing  in it .  Of course instead of more films , they could do *Avatar* the Broadway musical .


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## Ray Pullar (Oct 3, 2016)

BAYLOR said:


> There's no singing  in it .  Of course instead of more films , they could do *Avatar* the Broadway musical .



Actually, there is singing when the Naavi gather for communion with the world-spirit.


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