# Archetypes in Sci Fi and Fantasy



## DanMe (Jan 7, 2009)

What is their role and what functions do they have in Sci Fi and Fantasy? We have been told to look this up for next week so we know what we are talking about in class. I dont know what it means and am struggling to find anything solid. Can anyone eloborate or point me in the right direction?

Daniel


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## Dave (Jan 7, 2009)

Daniel,

You could begin by doing a search here on Chronicles for "Archetype" as there is already at least one thread concerning Archetypes: http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/35704-what-do-you-think-about-archetypes.html

From this Wiki article: Archetype - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia  I would say that you should probably borrow that Joseph Campbell book from the Library, if you still have time (and the rest of the class didn't beat you there.)

Failing that, you will see discussions about how the idea of the reluctant hero's journey applies to Star Wars here: http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/22442-origins-of-star-wars-saga.html

You could also search for "Stereotype" and "Epitome" as that is what people usually mean, even if they are not the same thing.


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## Scifi fan (Jan 7, 2009)

You've given an open ended question, Dave. Weren't you give a reading list? That must be your starting point.


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## jezelf (Jan 7, 2009)

* Writer's Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers (Paperback)    *

       by Christopher Vogler (Author)

has excellent explaination of all the Archetypes, worth checking out the whole book. Heres a website that as an explaination on the bit you're asking:

Archetypes on the Path

and here's an excerpt of the book:

http://www2.irib.ir/education/THE WRITER'S JOURNEY.pdf

hope it helps.


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## DanMe (Jan 7, 2009)

Thanks very much. I will look into that joseph Campbell book. So far i have been looking at Carl G. Jung and his concept is rather strange as the typical archetype is lets say the hero, mother, dracula and so on. But Jung says its more the archetypal event such as birth, death, seperation from parents, initiation and marriage. Is it another one of those terms that are not really "set in stone"? My example would be postmoderism! My god is head spinning. Anyway I will look at the posts i have been given and by the way im greatful. After i have read these i shall get back here and let you know what i think, followed by some questions. I have to apply these to film and discuss the role of archetypes in Sci Fi and fantasy and how they function in the narratives.

Dan


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## HareBrain (Jan 7, 2009)

DanMe said:


> But Jung says its more the archetypal event such as birth, death, seperation from parents, initiation and marriage. Is it another one of those terms that are not really "set in stone"? My example would be postmoderism!


 
It's the archetypal events in the individual's (or society's) growing maturity and changing stages of consciouness in the development of the ego that give rise to the archetypal "characters".

Joseph Campbell is your man here. If your assignment isn't due in till 2012 or after, you will also have time to read his mammoth four volume "Masks of God" series - a real work of genius*. But the Hero's Journey is a good starting place.

I'd steer clear of postmodernism in this, though. Archetypes work on a deep emotional or psychological level, whereas postmodernism is an intellectual response.


*(Edit: even if you can't read all 4 volumes, you should definitely read the beginning of vol 1, "Primitive Mythology" as this give Campbell's ideas on the psychological origins of myth in the growth of the child, separation from mother etc)


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## DanMe (Jan 7, 2009)

HareBrain said:


> It's the archetypal events in the individual's (or society's) growing maturity and changing stages of consciouness in the development of the ego that give rise to the archetypal "characters".
> 
> Joseph Campbell is your man here. If your assignment isn't due in till 2012 or after, you will also have time to read his mammoth four volume "Masks of God" series - a real work of genius*. But the Hero's Journey is a good starting place.
> 
> ...



Seriously thanks for your comments guys. An sorry if it was unclear but i didnt mean i was going to use the postmodernism in this research, I was just saying that it seems there are diferent definitions of Archetypes and i find it a little confusing. I would love to look into the Campbell Volumes but I only have till like next week to look this stuff up. I mean i want to know a decent amount of info on the subject.

What type of film would you say would be a good hard core example of an archetype functioning film? 

Dan


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## HareBrain (Jan 7, 2009)

DanMe said:


> What type of film would you say would be a good hard core example of an archetype functioning film?


 
Well, George Lucas actually spoke to Joseph Campbell about Star Wars, particularly I think about the role of Darth Vader ("Dark Father"). The relationship between Luke and Vader is pretty archetypal. There's probably loads of stuff on the net about that - but it's the classic example and loads of other people in your class might also use it.


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## Precision Grace (Jan 7, 2009)

Google is so helpful in these things...
Archetype - SCIFIPEDIA  - lists all sci fi archetypes  (I didn't even know there was so many)

Archetypes in Modern Mythology

of course, reading this sort of things puts you in danger of writing stuff that sounds, eh, how shall I put it... um, plagiarized. 

TO be honest, I would think your best bet is to pick 3 or 4 and have a good think about what role you think they play in Sci Fi and how we, as viewers/readers relate to them, what message they convey etc.

Let us know how you get on, eh.


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## Precision Grace (Jan 7, 2009)

Of course, if I were writing an essay on this, I would probably write about Batman films since they epitomize two uber essential archetypes; super hero and super villian, with free smattering of lesser archetypes here and there. And what fun to be had discussing what archetype Alfred Pennyworth embodies! 

Hmm...maybe I should start a thread....


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## Pyan (Jan 7, 2009)

This is a useful site...if only too easy to get embroiled in!...

Mixed Archetypes - Television Tropes & Idioms


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## DanMe (Jan 8, 2009)

Precision Grace said:


> Of course, if I were writing an essay on this, I would probably write about Batman films since they epitomize two uber essential archetypes; super hero and super villian, with free smattering of lesser archetypes here and there. And what fun to be had discussing what archetype Alfred Pennyworth embodies!
> 
> Hmm...maybe I should start a thread....



I was thinking the exact thing! I really dont want to use the star wars or lord of the rings or harry potter because i do know at least half are doing it. Batman is one i came across and was wondering about it. I read abaut batman begins. Was saying how the scarecrow was an archetype kinda character.


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## jezelf (Jan 8, 2009)

oh by the way - * Writer's Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers (Paperback) *

Does briefly analyse _Star Wars_ in structure of the journey and archtypes, as well as _Pulp Fiction_ and a few others  can't remember which ones though. if you can find it in book shop worth a flick through.


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## Moonbat (Jan 8, 2009)

How about Flash Gordon, that's got some serious archetypes in


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## DanMe (Jan 13, 2009)

Ok i have spoke to my tutor about using batman as my choice of text. She said that i could focus on one character and how/if they change through the films aswell as relating the archetypes to them and how they affect the audience. What are the functions within this sci fi text. My problem is that i thought about joker but then again, what about him as and archetype? Thefact hes a super villain? My tutor said something about him being a shodow but since when is that an archetype? In respects to him coming and going alot. Also i have read the beginning of the Campbell book masks of god. Found it very interesting if im honest


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## Omphalos (Jan 13, 2009)

I think you need to tell us what you think after watching the movie or movies you want to critique. How do you think that the characters change during the movie?  You are essentially being asked to do an analysis that is a combination of Jungian and Neo Aristotelian. So after you have pegged down the ways that the outlook and behavior of the characters have changed, you can take a crack at guessing their motives, then discuss how effectively they communicate with the audience. How well they do their job to sway emotion, or communicate some larger message. Give us your thoughts on that, and hopefully then and only then others will comment. This after all is your school work. Nobody else's.  The newest Batman movie is actually an excellent artifact for this kind of analysis.  The Joker on his own morphs three or four times during that movie.


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## DanMe (Jan 13, 2009)

Ok im off to the shops to see what Batman films they have got. I Already have the dark knight so i need two others. Would you pick just pick the last 3 (DK, BB and batman and robin? or would you try and equal the year between them with maybe DK, B+R then Returns? 

Thanks

Edit: I would maybe have to look at a role in all 3 not joker obviously


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## DanMe (Jan 15, 2009)

jezelf said:


> *     Writer's Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers (Paperback)    *
> 
> by Christopher Vogler (Author)



This is one completely "SPOT ON" book. i finally got my hands on it today and my god is this helping. I have a long night of essay writing that has just got alot simpler. I have around 10 books but not got quotes from all of them, do you think thats sufficient?

Dan


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