# Family coat of arms.



## Foxbat (May 21, 2019)

Being a Scot of Irish descent, it left me both amused and bemused when I looked at my family (O'Brien) coat of arms.




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						O'Brien Coat of Arms, Family Crest - Free Image to View - O'Brien Name Origin History and Meaning of Symbols
					

O'Brien Coat of Arms, Family Crest - Free Image to View - O'Brien Name Origin History and Meaning of Symbols



					www.irishsurnames.com
				



Family motto: _The strongest hand uppermost_

It seems that I can proudly wear three lions on my chest

Probably worth noting that the English three lions is derived from the Plategenets (french).  Wether there's any relationship between them and the O'Briens is something I've yet to uncover.

Anyhoo. That's mine. What's yours?


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## Venusian Broon (May 21, 2019)

Actually you seem to have real lions on your crest. Aren't the English one technically Leopards? 

Mine is a red stag looking directly at you:






Very Scottish I feel, when were there lions or leopards anywhere near the UK ??? (Oh and this is for proper spelling of the name, Thomson. Why insert a useless P into it???? ) Also this is in the same colours as Clyde FC. Must be right.


However, I am _somewhat _sceptical about such things. Aren't crests awarded/made for specific families, rather than whole groups of people with the same surname, so this is possibly a crest for a famous grouping of Thomsons. It's a bit like Tartan. Technically Thomson has a tartan, but Thomson is not really a highland name, more a Pictish East coast/Southern name (and possibly has it's origins in the crusades anyway) and so they are kinda 'co-opted' by the Campbell clan officially for Tartan purposes. (There is an official dress Tartan, but it was made for a Lord Thomson) Anyway, the whole Tartan thing is Victorian makey-up anyway.


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## Foxbat (May 21, 2019)

You might be right about leopards. That particular animal was used to depict sly and duplicitous behaviour in medieval times - an animal particulary associated with Edward - Hammer Of The Scots.


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## Ursa major (May 21, 2019)

My surname** could well be an (extreme) anglicisation of the one with the following coat of arms:






Ironically, given the central image in the coat of arms, it seems that both the original name and its extreme anglicisation are, to put it mildly, inapproriate for any worthy practioners of the trade/art the name indicates.


** - The oldest bearer of my surname of which I'm aware was born in County Down around the beginning of the 19th century. He is someone whose ancestors are unlikely to have been "planted" there, either from England or Scotland, so there's a reasonably good chance anglicisation of the name _did_ occur.


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## Vertigo (May 21, 2019)

I only have a black and white scan but this is my family coat of arms as researched by a now long dead and very eccentric cousin of mine (actually of my grandfather's) who was a member of the College of Heralds (aka College of Arms).


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## sknox (May 22, 2019)

Knox. I ain't got one, 'less it's one of a scowling Presbyterian. 

But that's just one line. What about the Van Duesens? Or the Vincenti? Or the other family names going up my patrilineal or matrilineal?  Which one of those is "mine"? And anyway, coats of arms are for aristocrats, and danged if they don't keep hanging around no matter how many of their heads we chopped off! 

Not trying to harsh anybody's trip. Just being an American. Our coat of arms should be a great big Cadillac, diamond in the back, sunroof top.


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## Ursa major (May 22, 2019)

sknox said:


> Our coat of arms should be a great big Cadillac


Some of those danged aristocrats need caddies in order to play golf -- golf trollies and (particularly) carts being beneath them, and carrying their own clubs seen as the thin end of the wedge that leads to the guillotine -- so as long as you learn to be suitably obsequious, they'll be happy if you display that coat of arms (though only in the privacy of your own hovel)....


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## Venusian Broon (May 22, 2019)

sknox said:


> Knox. I ain't got one, 'less it's one of a scowling Presbyterian.
> 
> But that's just one line. What about the Van Duesens? Or the Vincenti? Or the other family names going up my patrilineal or matrilineal?  Which one of those is "mine"? And anyway, coats of arms are for aristocrats, and danged if they don't keep hanging around no matter how many of their heads we chopped off!
> 
> Not trying to harsh anybody's trip. Just being an American. Our coat of arms should be a great big Cadillac, diamond in the back, sunroof top.



Of course you have, the generic Knox is a yellow bird on a red background. Just type in "coat of arms Knox" in a search engine and look for images. Sure it wasn't awarded to your specific family in your lifetime, but that's what you'd get for _that_ generic name.

As for which is yours, well, if you don't like Knox change it to something else. Pretty sure the other names will come up with different coats of arms. Make up something no one else has ever had in history to not get a crest.


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## Vertigo (May 22, 2019)

sknox said:


> and anyway, coats of arms are for aristocrats,


Not quite true actually. My coat of arms is specifically for a freeman landowner not of noble birth. The original definition of a squire, a 'title' to which I am, apparently, entitled. But absolutely not aristocracy.


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## nixie (May 22, 2019)

Sweeney, my dad's


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## Venusian Broon (May 22, 2019)

Vertigo said:


> Not quite true actually. My coat of arms is specifically for a freeman landowner not of noble birth. The original definition of a squire, a 'title' to which I am, apparently, entitled. But absolutely not aristocracy.



Plus coats of arms are given to all sorts of things nowadays, organisations etc. _and_ it can be just a bit of fun.  

Also I'm fascinated by the history and stories, the old ones generate. Even although I am unlikely to be connected to them


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## nixie (May 22, 2019)

Elliott my mum's


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## Venusian Broon (May 22, 2019)

nixie said:


> Sweeney, my dad's
> View attachment 52805



What's the animal in the green band???? Armadillo? Dinosaur?  

I like the magic wand in your mums! Very Hogwarts


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## Vertigo (May 22, 2019)

nixie said:


> Elliott my mum's View attachment 52806


Do you know what the blue and white bar represents?


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## nixie (May 22, 2019)

I really don't know,  the animal associated with Sweeney is the boar, it's probably some past seer seen Wally in the future and added a large crocodile but didn't get the image right


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## Venusian Broon (May 22, 2019)

nixie said:


> I really don't know,  the animal associated with Sweeney is the boar, it's probably some past seer seen Wally in the future and added a large crocodile but didn't get the image right


I'd go with Dinosaur. That really gives your family a very _long _heritage and history


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## nixie (May 22, 2019)

Vertigo said:


> Do you know what the blue and white bar represents?


I don't, know Elliott has three separate coats of Arms, English, Irish and Scottish, brother done some research on ours because he wanted the Elliott tartan for a wedding, turns out we were descended from the border reivers.


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## Matteo (May 22, 2019)

Venusian Broon said:


> However, I am _somewhat _sceptical about such things. Aren't crests awarded/made for specific families, rather than whole groups of people with the same surname...


This is what I always thought.

And having just looked up mine - and found twelve different designs - I think we're right.


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## Vertigo (May 22, 2019)

Yes a coat of arms is strictly speaking only for an individual not even a family, I think, and they don't necessarily persist unchanged down through the generations. If that person married someone who also had a coat of arms then the two would be merged based on all sorts of arcane rules and the next generation would have a modified one. Or at least that's how I understood it. However these days I'm not sure that gets done much any longer.


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## Jo Zebedee (May 22, 2019)

Foxbat said:


> Being a Scot of Irish descent, it left me both amused and bemused when I looked at my family (O'Brien) coat of arms.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They don’t even have an option of an Irish surname starting with Z. Pitiful!


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## Dave (May 22, 2019)

Vertigo said:


> Yes a coat of arms is strictly speaking only for an individual not even a family, I think, and they don't necessarily persist unchanged down through the generations. If that person married someone who also had a coat of arms then the two would be merged based on all sorts of arcane rules and the next generation would have a modified one. Or at least that's how I understood it. However these days I'm not sure that gets done much any longer.


This is almost 100% correct, except that a "coat of arms" strictly applies to a garment with the escutcheon or armorial achievement embroidered on it, (whereas most people think of a full achievement when they talk about a "coat of arms.") This is all laid down in statue from the time of Henry VIII.

In addition, the use of "Family Crests" (the part of the overall coat of arms that is a a three-dimensional object at the top) was probably a Victorian invention - they also invented Clan Tartans. Having a coat of arms or family crest is quite rare, and having the hereditary right to use it is even rarer. The many companies advertising on the internet to sell you merchandise with your supposed “family crest” on it are usually not engaged in legitimate genealogical research, and have more likely made up a crest that may not belong to your family at all.


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## M. Robert Gibson (May 22, 2019)

You could always make your own





						Make your coat of arms family crest FREE, Family Crest Generator
					

Make your coat of arms family crest free, Family Crest Generator



					www.allfamilycrests.com
				




Here's one I made earlier


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## M. Robert Gibson (May 22, 2019)

Here's a slightly better one








						FREE Family Crest & Coat of Arms Generator
					

Design your own family crest using real heraldic imagery. Try our coat of arms generator and see what your family crest could look like based on your own family characteristics. \n MyTribe101.com



					www.mytribe101.com


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## M. Robert Gibson (May 22, 2019)

This one is quite fancy, but it doesn't let you add your own motto








						MyBlazon.com | Create your very own coat of arms
					

MyBlazon - Enable the noble you! Show the world what you stand for and depict yourself with your very own coat of arms. 100% free, fun and easy.



					myblazon.com
				








Note that you don't need to sign up to any of these sites.  Just grab a screenshot


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## Dave (May 22, 2019)

M. Robert Gibson said:


> Note that you don't need to sign up to any of these sites.  Just grab a screenshot


Except that they have stored your IP address and have stored cookies on your machine. Unless you clear those cookies you will see Google Ads for Family Trees, DNA Testing and Penis enlargements until after next Christmas!


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## M. Robert Gibson (May 22, 2019)

Dave said:


> Except that they have stored your IP address and have stored cookies on your machine


Not me.  I use UBlock Origin to block all third-party scripts/frames.  I use Vivaldi (Chromium based) to only allow per-session cookies from first-party sites that I'm only temporarily visiting and block all third-party cookies.
And since I'm not allowing Javascript based ad-slingers, I never see adverts anyway.

Paranoid?  Me?  You betcha!


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## M. Robert Gibson (May 22, 2019)

Dave said:


> Family Trees, DNA Testing and Penis enlargements


And there's only one of these I want for Christmas.


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## Foxbat (May 23, 2019)

Thought these sites might help folk understand the meaning behind the coats of arms.





						Meaning of Heraldic Colors for Your Custom Coat of Arms
					

Here are the meanings of the heraldic colors of your coat of arms.



					www.thetreemaker.com
				











						Coat of Arms Symbols And Meanings | Heraldry & Crests
					

Here at Heraldry & Crests, you can find an A-Z collection of coat of arm symbols and their meanings on family crests and coat of arms.



					www.heraldryandcrests.com


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## sknox (May 23, 2019)

I was glad to see the person at that site mention that the meaning of colors varied across countries and over time. So much heraldic information is presented as fixed fact when it is in fact peculiar to the British Isles (an altogether peculiar place) and is for the most part post-medieval. Doesn't make it wrong; it's just not universal--a fact that fantasy writers can put to good use.


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## Venusian Broon (May 23, 2019)

sknox said:


> I was glad to see the person at that site mention that the meaning of colors varied across countries and over time. So much heraldic information is presented as fixed fact when it is in fact peculiar to the British Isles (an altogether peculiar place) and is for the most part post-medieval. Doesn't make it wrong; it's just not universal--a fact that fantasy writers can put to good use.



If you mean specifically 'heraldry' as in the technical subject about costs of arms - yeah its a European thing (not peculiar to the UK only - surprised with all your family connections you didn't know that )

Yet clearly if you look at a wide range of human cultures there's clearly emblems that people used to represent organisations, kingdoms, clans, towns even. Have a look at the Japanese Mons.Yeah, not called heraldry but are essentially the same thing. An emblem originally signifying an aristocratic family, but now greatly expanded.

Pretty sure if you dig into most other cultures you'll find something we could call heraldry.


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## Dave (May 23, 2019)

Venusian Broon said:


> Pretty sure if you dig into most other cultures you'll find something we could call heraldry.



Aren't Company Logos and Product Branding just a continuation of the same kind of symbolism? What about Football Clubs and other sports clubs? "Three Lions on their shirts"

BTW I pointed out to @HareBrain once the supporting Otters on the coat of arms of the Worshipful Company of Salters (one of the livery companies of the City of London.)


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## Ursa major (May 23, 2019)

Dave said:


> BTW I pointed out to @HareBrain once the supporting Otters on the coat of arms of the Worshipful Company of Salters


Well spotted....


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## Dave (May 23, 2019)

Ursa major said:


> Well spotted....


I saw them as metal sculptures in the iron gates outside Salter's Hall first. They were unusual so I looked them up.


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## HareBrain (May 23, 2019)

Dave said:


> BTW I pointed out to @HareBrain once the supporting Otters on the coat of arms of the Worshipful Company of Salters



I think you'll find they are actually sp*ott*ed panth*ers*, but some of the letters had faded.


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## Pyan (May 23, 2019)

nixie said:


> I don't, know Elliott has three separate coats of Arms, English, Irish and Scottish, brother done some research on ours because he wanted the Elliott tartan for a wedding, turns out we were descended from the border reivers.


Try googling my signature...


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## Dave (May 23, 2019)

Dave said:


> I saw them as metal sculptures in the iron gates outside Salter's Hall first. They were unusual so I looked them up.


 Here you are: they look more like Otters (except for the weird feet.)


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## nixie (May 23, 2019)

pyan said:


> Try googling my signature...


Ha, now I know why Tabby choose me, I wonder are we distant cousins


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## sknox (May 23, 2019)

Pretty sure heralds would insist on a narrower definition of heraldry. But that makes me wonder: are there heralds elsewhere in Europe? Do (or did) they exist in Germany, Hungary, Sweden, Portugal? A quick bit of research shows that coats of arms appear all across Europe, but I couldn't find the actual office of herald anywhere but in England. Doesn't mean it isn't/wasn't there.

I did get a giggle out of finding that one of the early books on heraldry was written by Bartolus of Sassoferrato. I'd read him as a political theorist; never knew he'd written that other tome. Plus, his is one of my favorite names to say aloud, right up there with Walter von der Vogelweide and Hermann the German. No good reason why.

That Wikipedia article also mention socialist heraldic arms, which I just find hysterical.


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## The Big Peat (May 23, 2019)

Standard lazy answer - seems that many countries today grant heraldic authority to their national archives rather than any heralds per se

Heraldic authority - Wikipedia


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## Phyrebrat (May 23, 2019)

Are crests different to coat of arms?

Here’s mine. I grant amnesty to all chronners who wish to tease me about my surname

The motto ‘touch not the catt bot a targe’ means basically I’m fabulous 

pH


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## Danny McG (May 23, 2019)




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## Ursa major (May 23, 2019)

Two thoughts:

Couldn't he have bought something that was merely second-hand?
This is what happens if you're the youngest in a very large family: all your clothes are hands-me-down.


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## Dave (May 24, 2019)

So, do we know of any science fiction & fantasy coats of arms? (If you Google that, you'll only get this thread!)

Harry Potter has the full achievement for the school itself created from crests of each of the school houses:






and Anhk Morpork has the full achievement too:






Game of Thrones uses crests for each of the family Houses.


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## Danny McG (May 24, 2019)

Well there is this one from the Honorverse



And I think I once saw a House Atreides one from Dune


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## Danny McG (May 24, 2019)

Ursa major said:


> My surname** could well be an (extreme) anglicisation of the one with the following coat of arms


What? You mean Smith?


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## Ursa major (May 25, 2019)

Cursed I am by having such an unusual name....


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## RJM Corbet (May 26, 2019)

Ours is supposed to be a raven with elephant and castle, and motto: Deus Pascus Corvus -- God Feeds the Ravens. 'Corbet' is derived from the French _Corbeau_ -- Raven. William the Conqueror days. But my family is of Irish decent. My great grandfather was MP for County Wicklow. William Joseph Corbet - Wikipedia  My grandfather moved to England. My grandmother was Scottish. My father was born in Worthing, Sussex; he emigrated to Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe, of course) and that's where I was born.

Yay! Found it:
Corbet Family Crest, Coat of Arms and Name History



Venusian Broon said:


> Aren't crests awarded/made for specific families, rather than whole groups of people with the same surname


However, this is true.


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## RJM Corbet (May 26, 2019)

My great great grandmother was Alice O'Moore; she married Robert Corbet. My grandfather believed O'Moore was a derivation of the old Irish Mulhall name, and so in 1923 he changed our family name by deed poll to Mulhall-Corbet. This has caused difficulty in my attempt to get myself an Irish passport.

Because the deed-poll entry was before 1945 I had to go in person to the National Archive in London and pay £60 for a certified copy. But I'm stymied now anyway because my grandpa died in Zimbabwe (when it was still Rhodesia) and it's impossible to get the death certificate from there online.

I asked a cousin who lives in Zimbabwe to go to the home office in Harare and apply for it, but she told me people have to wait in a queue there for between three and five days to get documents -- unless you know someone in high places there. Obviously she's busy and doesn't have time for it.

She says there are a lot of children there without birth certificates, because documents are so difficult to obtain.


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## sknox (May 26, 2019)

I know where I came from. 

I came from the other room, just now.


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## Ursa major (May 26, 2019)

sknox said:


> I came from the other room, just now.



Coming in here, lording it over the rest of us with your throwaway mention of your "o_ther_ room"....


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## Pyan (May 26, 2019)

You lot may have two (or more) rooms, but _we_ have a Borders keep, albeit with no roof...


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## Ursa major (May 26, 2019)

Sounds as if I ought to avoid wishing you a long reign....


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## sknox (May 27, 2019)

Isn't Borders out of business?


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## Lew Rockwell Fan (May 30, 2019)

M. Robert Gibson said:


> Not me.  I use UBlock Origin to block all third-party scripts/frames.  I use Vivaldi (Chromium based) to only allow per-session cookies from first-party sites that I'm only temporarily visiting and block all third-party cookies.
> And since I'm not allowing Javascript based ad-slingers, I never see adverts anyway.
> 
> Paranoid?  Me?  You betcha!


As everyone should. Because if you haven't figured out that the great bulk of internet ads are served by 2 thoroughly evil corporations, you haven't paid attention.  I believe you can tweak *μ*Block to allow ads that don't come from objectionable sources & don't hog excessive resources on your system.  You can also use the fork Ad Nauseum, which is more belligerent.  I like belligerent.


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