# The depressing destruction of Iraqi's ancient history



## Brian G Turner (Mar 7, 2015)

I try to avoid reading these news pieces as I consider them too distressing - we've already had pieces smashed in Mosul's museum, followed this week by the destruction of the ancient city of Nimrud.

And now, the ruins of Hata get bulldozed:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-31779484

I'm posting this just to keep note of the story, but this thread keeps to the subject of damage to ancient historical sites. 

If any posts veer into generalities on ISIS, Islam, or the politics of Iraq, I'll move those into one of the corresponding threads about ISIS in the World Affairs board.


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## Ray McCarthy (Mar 7, 2015)

There was destruction in Afghanistan by Taliban?
Was that the Buddhas or was that some other place?


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## Jo Zebedee (Mar 7, 2015)

And here we are giving publicity to it. I do wonder if it was something they knew would get coverage in the west?


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## j d worthington (Mar 8, 2015)

springs said:


> And here we are giving publicity to it. I do wonder if it was something they knew would get coverage in the west?



I'm sure they did, in fact, I'm sure they counted on it. They're practice is to get more and more outrageous to provoke responses.

As for this stuff in particular... I'm not sure just what I should say about it. My personal feelings when it comes to such things, despite my generally being very much a pacifist, turn very violent. These are things which simply cannot be replaced, ever; they are destroying large, important chunks of the early history of civilization here, and to me that is an unforgiveable crime. I abhor the butchery they indulge in, as do all the many Muslims I've come to know... but this, to me, goes far beyond that, as it affects us all, for the remainder of time. They are wiping out history and our understanding of the past (or at least our possibility of improving our understanding of the past). To me, this puts them on the level of vermin needing extermination. I realize how harsh that sounds; frankly I don't give a damn. Generally I'm much more in favor of educating people out of this sort of madness; but in this instance, we simply don't have the time to do so. That's a very long-term approach, and by the time any headway has been gained, there's no end to the amount of world history they will have obliterated for all future generations.

If my gut-level reaction makes me a bad person, then so be it. These are not the actions of any reasonable creature, but rather the irredeemably, cancerously, insane. Cauterization seems, however harsh, the only way to prevent further such theft from us and all who will follow after.


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## Foxbat (Mar 8, 2015)

Ray McCarthy said:


> There was destruction in Afghanistan by Taliban?
> Was that the Buddhas or was that some other place?


Yes.  Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan


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## Dave (Mar 8, 2015)

j d worthington said:


> If my gut-level reaction makes me a bad person, then so be it. These are not the actions of any reasonable creature, but rather the irredeemably, cancerously, insane. Cauterization seems, however harsh, the only way to prevent further such theft from us and all who will follow after.


No, you're not a bad person.

While I can't agree with them, I can accept the followers of ISIS having an ideology that is alternate to the West. In that respect, they are no different to Communists, Anarchists or the Amish. However, this is more akin to the book burning of the Nazis. I think any ideology stands on fairly shaky ground if it feels so threatened by alternative ideologies that it must remove any references to them. Vandalism always seems utterly pointless and mindless to me, especially when undertaken in such a ruthless manner to beautiful or venerable objects, but to anything that someone else has taken time to create. Civilisations rise and fall over time and ours will be no exception, but future historians are going to view these events in the way we view the sacking of Rome or the destruction of the Library of Alexandria.


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## thaddeus6th (Mar 8, 2015)

It's before my time, but I have heard comparisons of ISIS with the Khmer Rouge. 

It's very sad, but not surprising. Funnily enough, small antiquities aren't destroyed, they're sold on the international black market. The statues of Nimrud pre-date Islam by one and a half thousand years. 

At the same time, Boko Haram has pledged allegiance to ISIS. So, that's part of Libya, Syria, Iraq and Nigeria. Surprisingly, US public opinion is now, I believe, in favour of boots on the ground.


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## BAYLOR (Mar 8, 2015)

In Saudi Arabia the Wahhabist  religious authorities are systematically destroying the county's  cultural heritage because they fear it could lead to Idolatry.  The house of Muhammad's birth, the tombs of his companions all gone because of them.  ISIS follows that same mentality.


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## Gramm838 (Mar 8, 2015)

Yet if someone building a road in the UK disturbs a newt's nesting place, all the treehuggers and eco warriors will be out in force to stop the construction...am I alone in thinking that we in the west have lost our sense of whats important?

Actually,  maybe that's the answer - if we publicise the fact that ISIS are developing GM foods while destroying newt habitats, Greenpeace will become Greenwar and head off to Iraq to solve the ISIS problem once and for all


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## Foxbat (Mar 9, 2015)

Gramm838 said:


> Yet if someone building a road in the UK disturbs a newt's nesting place, all the treehuggers and eco warriors will be out in force to stop the construction...am I alone in thinking that we in the west have lost our sense of whats important?
> 
> Actually,  maybe that's the answer - if we publicise the fact that ISIS are developing GM foods while destroying newt habitats, Greenpeace will become Greenwar and head off to Iraq to solve the ISIS problem once and for all



The reason for such moves is because certain species are in danger of extinction (including newts in the UK). Isn't the wanton and thoughtless destruction of a whole species just as ignorant and barbaric as the destruction of ancient monuments?


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## Dave (Mar 9, 2015)

Gramm838 said:


> Yet if someone building a road in the UK disturbs a newt's nesting place, all the treehuggers and eco warriors will be out in force to stop the construction...am I alone in thinking that we in the west have lost our sense of whats important?


My apologies, but I don't understand your argument. Sorry, but it doesn't appear coherent to me. This could just be me. It seems you are suggesting that protesters should travel into the middle of a war zone and stop murdering fanatics with bulldozers from wanton vandalism. I don't think I've lost my sense of what is important but, personally, I'll skip on that holiday, thanks!

Greenpeace do, in fact, take the Rainbow Warrior into conflict, in their fight against killing Whales. Many of them were recently captured and locked up in Russian jails for this. Personally, I find them equally fanatical in their cause and I tend to believe that, just like charity, conservation begins at home. So, it would probably be me out saving the newts in the local places under threat of development, of which there are currently many in south east London alone - Crystal Palace Park, South Norwood Country Park, Beckenham Place Park, Havelock Recreation Ground, Southwark Cemetery Woods. With these on my doorstep, I don't need to look very much further.


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## Gramm838 (Mar 19, 2015)

My point us that we in the West gave now lost the will to do the right thing and put boots on the ground again to take these fanatics...but where people think they can protest/stop stuff happening in a way that is risk free to themselves they are happy to do it.

I suspect that most people in areas where their livelihood and culture are under real threat from extremists DO think that the effort we expend to save a colony of newts is out of proportion to the reality of their situation.


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## Anne Spackman (Mar 27, 2015)

This news really is upsetting.  I think that antiquities belong to all of the human race and that this senseless destruction of these and ancient cities is horrendously irreverent and thoughtless.

I watched this not long ago, a video showing the destruction of some of these rare antiquities:
http://m.voanews.com/a/2666965.html

I just hope that something is done before the ancient cities and items in the museums are all destroyed.  I guess a lot will end up on the black market.  Not sure how I feel about this, though at least some statues will survive and not entirely be destroyed.


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## AnyaKimlin (Mar 27, 2015)

Given British museums are stuffed to the rafters with various things taken by treasure hunters and archaeologists, I'm not convinced our country can take the moral high ground here.

The North of Scotland has a number of small museums with stores that are full of artefacts that are never put on display.  Where I live in Moray where there is no records facility and ancient documents have been kept in very poor conditions.  That is despite it being vital to the understand of Scottish history.

What is happening here has happened again and again throughout time and history/archaeology would be a very dull subject if it hadn't.


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## Anne Spackman (Mar 27, 2015)

This is true.  What is happening is a sad destruction that we know has happened before-even in ancient times, robbers took valuables from the tombs of ancient Egypt to sell, and there have always been vandals.  I don't know whether or not archaeologists in the past negotiated to take the treasures they found, or if they paid for them in any way, but it is true that much has made it to the West already.  I do find it sad that all of the antiquities can't be saved for posterity... protected from acid rain as well and any likelihood of decay.  But this was especially destructive and for no good reason.


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## BAYLOR (Mar 27, 2015)

AnyaKimlin said:


> Given British museums are stuffed to the rafters with various things taken by treasure hunters and archaeologists, I'm not convinced our country can take the moral high ground here.
> 
> The North of Scotland has a number of small museums with stores that are full of artefacts that are never put on display.  Where I live in Moray where there is no records facility and ancient documents have been kept in very poor conditions.  That is despite it being vital to the understand of Scottish history.
> 
> What is happening here has happened again and again throughout time and history/archaeology would be a very dull subject if it hadn't.




Those Same British Museums have saved alot of artifacts that might have otherwise been lost. Imagine where the Parthanon sculptures would be now if they hadn't ended up in a museum . They likely would have been destroyed.


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## AnyaKimlin (Mar 27, 2015)

BAYLOR said:


> Those Same British Museums have saved alot of artifacts that might have otherwise been lost. Imagine where the Parthanon sculptures would be now if they hadn't ended up in a museum . They likely would have been destroyed.



Not bleached?  They may have been destroyed but the British Museum vandalised them.  I'm not placing a value judgement on this beyond as an archaeologist some destruction is good.  It's the mix of preservation and destruction by people and other elements that makes the study so fascinating.   And as a fiction writer it is the loop holes and the missing pieces that provide the stories.

What about all those Egyptians whose graves have been ransacked?  And now they are on display en masse in a museum.  There are the three that a museum local to myself lost.  It isn't human nature to respect the cultures of others.  That particular skill is one we, as humans, are developing and are becoming better at.


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