# Ancient Greece?



## Herb (Mar 23, 2016)

I understand that this is a SFF community, and a very fine one indeed. So if this post is too off topic I won`t be at all offended if it gets removed. Hey what can you expect of a newbie anyway eh? But judging by all the great posts I`ve seen in my brief time here, I thought there was likely someone who could help me. I`d like to find a book that would give me a good overview of ancient Greece, it`s founding, history, and eventual fall. It`s just for enjoyment, so not seeking a dusty old scholarly tome, but at the same time, want something above high school level as well. Suggestions? Thank you.


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## aThenian (Mar 23, 2016)

I'm interested in Ancient Greece too, so will be interested to hear what's recommended.  I don't think I've read anything that's quite the overview you want, but I'll have a look at my bookshelf later - the nearest would be this The Classical World: An Epic History of Greece and Rome: Amazon.co.uk: Robin Lane Fox: 9780141021416: Books
but I found it a bit leaden and didn't finish it.  A friend of mine really enjoyed it though.

Mary Renault's fiction on this era is great and covers different stages - there are some threads on here.  My favourite is Last of the Wine.

The History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides is pretty readable and very famous if you want to try something actually written at the time.


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## Venusian Broon (Mar 23, 2016)

I really enjoyed _The Peloponnesian War _by Donald Kagan - it's history of the twenty years war between Sparta and Athens - recorded of course by Thucydides as mentioned above - but done in a 20th century manner 

It of course only covers a tiny amount of Greek history, but it's a pivot point - just after the Greek city states had finally beat back the Persians they fell and squabbled amongst themselves, leaving them open for a greater power - Phillip's Macedonia to come in and conquer them.

As an aside I really enjoyed Robert Lane Fox's _Alexander the Great_. I suppose one man's leaden prose is another man's sparkling history


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## Brian G Turner (Mar 23, 2016)

_The Iliad_ - Homer
_The Peloponessian War_ - Thucydides

Both are first hand Greek texts that are seriously accessible to a modern audience, while providing essential insights into their history.

I'll also move this thread to the History section.


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## svalbard (Mar 23, 2016)

I second VB's post. Fox's book on Alexander is brilliant. 

Donald Kagan also has a great podcast on Ancient Greece. Excellent for when you are on a long journey.


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## Herb (Mar 23, 2016)

Brian Turner said:


> _The Iliad_ - Homer
> _The Peloponessian War_ - Thucydides
> 
> Both are first hand Greek texts that are seriously accessible to a modern audience, while providing essential insights into their history.
> ...


Thanks, and sorry Brian. I did find the History section, but only after I`d posted in the wrong place.


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## Brian G Turner (Mar 23, 2016)

Herb said:


> Thanks, and sorry Brian. I did find the History section, but only after I`d posted in the wrong place.



Not a problem - chrons is a big place. You may also enjoy our Historical Fiction section.


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## J-Sun (Mar 23, 2016)

These are old but likely cheap "complete in one volume" histories: Durant's *The Life of Greece* is a large, detailed history which pays as much attention to social and cultural history as political and military, written by a non-specialist. Kitto's *The Greeks* is more of a thematic study of Greece than a standard history but I recall it being excellent. It does work in some chronology, too. Probably the simplest, handiest one is Burns' *The Pelican History of Greece*.

For Greek historians themselves (and likely moving out of the "cheap" range unless you get lucky) one of the best ways to go is with the fantastically amplified "*Landmark*" series - which are like getting the book and a companion to the book in one. There are volumes of Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon's _Hellenika_ (I have, but have yet to read, that one), and even the best ancient biography of Alexander, _The Landmark Arrian_. For modern biographies, I have heard bad things about the Fox Alexander, myself, but picked it up for the lavish illustrations.  I haven't read it yet, though, so I can't say. My favorite is Peter Green's *Alexander of Macedon, 356-323 B.C.*. Some other biographer (J.R. Hamilton?) described Tarn as "whitewashing" Alexander and said Green "colorwashed" him. However that may be, I liked it.

And we shouldn't leave out Plutarch. Penguin has a set of four paperbacks that drops some lives and does away with Plutarch's parallelism, arranging them into chronological order so that may actually suit you but it'd probably be better just to read all the extant ones with Plutarch's "parallel" essays and so on.

Lastly, all the great poets and philosophers are essential reading, even in historical terms, if you want to go deeper into Greece (or to just enjoy some fantastic poetry and philosophy) but would obviously be overkill if you just want a single-volume overview.


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## aThenian (Mar 24, 2016)

I've had another look.  I've got this which I haven't looked at in a while but enjoyed:
The Oxford History of the Classical World: Amazon.co.uk: John Boardman, Jasper Griffin, Oswyn Murray: 9780192852366: Books It is an overview but with thematic chapters.  And it'scheap, but also a big book - not a good one for carrying about.



Venusian Broon said:


> As an aside I really enjoyed Robert Lane Fox's _Alexander the Great_. I suppose one man's leaden prose is another man's sparkling history



One of the things that irritated me about his Epic History was the framing device of addressing it to the Emperor Hadrian.  Why do that?  And it sort of implies that the Greeks should be viewed through a Roman lens not in their own right.  But maybe I'm just being intolerant - never read the Alexander book.

I really, really enjoyed reading this recently The War That Killed Achilles: The True Story of Homer's Iliad and the Trojan War: Amazon.co.uk: Caroline Alexander, Michael Page: 9781501284243: Books  It's a companion to the Illiad, and has lots of interesting thing to say and is a good overview of the poem and so of the period.

Different again: this is a chatty individualistic approach rather than a history - discussions on stuff like "Why Greek tragedy is like the Wire":  The Ancient Guide to Modern Life: Amazon.co.uk: Natalie Haynes: 9781846683244: Books


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## Venusian Broon (Mar 24, 2016)

aThenian said:


> I've had another look.  I've got this which I haven't looked at in a while but enjoyed:
> The Oxford History of the Classical World: Amazon.co.uk: John Boardman, Jasper Griffin, Oswyn Murray: 9780192852366: Books It is an overview but with thematic chapters.  And it'scheap, but also a big book - not a good one for carrying about.



Weird I have had this book for years too! It's definitely more to the academic side of things, therefore a bit dry (from memory) but it's packed with all sorts of great information. A swimming pool book - dip in for a few lengths every so often...



aThenian said:


> One of the things that irritated me about his Epic History was the framing device of addressing it to the Emperor Hadrian.  Why do that?  And it sort of implies that the Greeks should be viewed through a Roman lens not in their own right.  But maybe I'm just being intolerant - never read the Alexander book.



I suspect that book market in all things Roman and Greek is crowded so you've got to stand out. His Alexander book doesn't have a gimmick - it's a straight history book, and much more to the mass market side of things rather than academic. 

Another book that I really enjoyed (but its thesis may be disagreed with) is J.E. Lendon's _Soldiers and Ghosts: A History of Battle in Classical Antiquity. _Takes in both Greek and Roman Cultures. Gives an argument for the cultural roots and mindset that gave rise to the Greek Phalanx and also the pervading influence of Homer's Iliad on practical Greek and Roman military matters. Food for thought anyway.


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## Herb (Mar 25, 2016)

Well some great suggestions and lots of food for thought so far. Thanks everyone.  So far I`ve managed to acquire for my Kindle *The Life of Greece *by Durant, which looks to be just about what I was hoping for and two by Paul A Cartledge, *Ancient Greece: A Very Sort Introduction *and *THERMOPYLAE: The Battle That Changed The World*.  That should keep me busy for a little while, as *The Life of Greece *alone totals 2097 EBook pages. And then the problem with being an avid reader is that they keeping writing new books all the time. All that SF, those great thrillers, historical fiction, mysteries, police procedurals, and non fiction books keep coming, not to mention all the great ones still on my TRL.  And I imagine there will be lots more good ones to come to this thread, and I want try more that already are here. Roll on retirement!


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## thaddeus6th (Mar 25, 2016)

Venusian, I second your approval of Kagan's history of the Peloponnesian War. And it's festooned with excellent maps. (I'd still read Thucydides' history first).


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