# Do women and men relate to characters differently?



## Brian G Turner (Jun 3, 2013)

Something I was thinking about earlier today - do women and men tend to relate to characters differently?

More specifically, I recall discussions elsewhere where women readers would be critical of female characters for hurting male characters emotionally.

It made me wonder - as a generalisation - do men tend to look for one or more male characters to relate to, whereas do women tend to relate socially to all of the characters?

In other words, male readers may generally find an all-female cast difficult to relate to and therefore find it difficult to get into the story ...

... whereas female readers may be much more comfortable with an all-male cast, because it's how they would - as an individual - relate to each one socially and emotionally.

I appreciate I'm generalisating and it's a dangerous thing to do, but does any of this make sense?


----------



## Darth Angelus (Jun 3, 2013)

Hmm, interesting question, which I do not think I am able to answer.

I am not a medical doctor, but as far as I understand, there is quite a bit of research that indicate there is some biological difference in how the male and the female brain operates, which results in some variation in certain skills (this is far less than the variations between individuals in the population). Therefore, I'd guess it is certainly possible that there is a difference between how the male and the female brain deals with the task of imagining and relating to characters. Whether there is such a difference as you suggest, I am not sure.

I can only speak for myself, but I can best relate to characters who are in a situation with some kind of similarity to a situation I have been in. There are other things that can make me relate to a character, too, but I think that gender has relatively little to do with how much I can relate to some character, beyond what follows directly from the fact that I am male and that there are obviously "situations" (as mentioned above) I consequently can't be in (pregnancy).


----------



## Teresa Edgerton (Jun 3, 2013)

I think for my generation, we were brainwashed into reading so many books written from the male viewpoint by male writers (because those were the books that were supposed to be worth reading), that we got in the habit of relating to male characters -- in some books more than the female characters, who often were rather flat.

This may or may not have been easier to do because of tendencies already present in the female brain.


----------



## Mouse (Jun 3, 2013)

I tend to relate to men better in general. As characters, in real life etc. I understand where my male friends are coming from more than my female friends, who, frankly, baffle me a lot of the time.


----------



## Pyan (Jun 3, 2013)

I said:


> It made me wonder - as a generalisation - do men tend to look for one or more male characters to relate to...



I think that's true of myself, certainly - I found myself struggling with ASoIaF for this very reason, to the extent that I've never reread the books (unlike 90% of SFF stories I've read are reread at least 3/4 times, and some many more) and don't intend to purchase any more GRRM books.




I said:


> In other words, male readers may generally find an all-female cast difficult to relate to and therefore find it difficult to get into the story ..


Hmm - no problems with the CJ Cherryh _Chanur_ novels, in which most of our heroes are heroines, or Sheri S Tepper's _True Game_ series (ditto). As far as I'm aware, I've never made a conscious decision whether or not to buy or read a book based on the gender of the characters.

Interesting, though, that several people have suggested in another thread that it's a good idea to start reading Lois Bujold's_ Vorkosigan Saga_ from _The Warrior's Apprentice_ (described as "the first proper Miles book") where the main focus changes from Cordelia, Miles' mother and chief protagonist of the first two books of the series, to Miles himself.


----------



## Krayhayft (Jun 7, 2013)

I believe that people relate to those characters that are closer to them. Females relate to females, males relate to males, teenagers relate to teenagers and kids relate to kids. It's just how we're programed. Why do you think in high school people break into groups. So they have people that they can relate to. Now does this mean that we can't relate to something different, of course not. Relating to emotion is just as strong no matter the sex.


----------



## Nesacat (Jun 7, 2013)

I very much relate to Teresa here. The majority of the books I read while growing up were filled with make characters. I got used to relating to these characters and quite often, the women, when they did make an appearance paled in comparison. 

The recent years have brought more books with women characters in them to my shelves and it was not so easy at first to appreciate them. I kept being more critical but I now find myself actively looking for books with women in them. Hence a liking for Sherri Tepper, Ekaterina Sedia, etc.


----------



## Stephen Palmer (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm not sure that gender has much to do with the reader relating or not relating to male and female characters. I don't think it's as much of an issue as, say, relating to a black character if you are white - I think cultural differences can be more difficult to bridge than gender ones. Also I think the age of a character and the reader is more important than gender. Younger readers have less personal experience of age. I find I relate to and understand older characters now - much more than thirty or forty years ago. Which reminds me, I really must re-read Greybeard.


----------



## Brian G Turner (Jun 7, 2013)

My personal suspicion is that male readers are looking for a character they can inject themselves directly into, and that a physically strong everyman character, preferably with a streak of nobility (literary or moral) is the lowest common denominator to satisfy the majority of male readers. I do not think men read female characters and imagine them as lovers, and will look at other male characters as potential "good buddies" to the protagonist they have injected themselves into.

I think women readers tend to read characters very differently, and rather than trying to inject themselves into a female protagonist, will instead simply be happy to empathise with them.  However, I think women readers put themselves in a relationship with characters - which means they are more likely to treat female characters as friends or even rivals - and male characters as potential friends and even lovers. I don't think Jack Reacher has the popularity he has as a character because the massive female readership Lee Childs has really want to fantasise about being a seven foot tall brick outhouse.

I just suspect that male and female readers will tend to relate to characters in different ways. It might not help that we have a lot of intelligent and open-minded readers on chrons.


----------



## Mouse (Jun 7, 2013)

I said:


> However, I think women readers put themselves in a relationship with characters - which means they are more likely to treat female characters as friends or even rivals - and male characters as potential friends and even lovers.



This is _so_ wrong for me.


----------



## Jo Zebedee (Jun 7, 2013)

pyan said:


> I think that's true of myself, certainly - I found myself struggling with ASoIaF for this very reason, to the extent that I've never reread the books (unlike 90% of SFF stories I've read are reread at least 3/4 times, and some many more) and don't intend to purchase any more GRRM books.
> 
> 
> Hmm - no problems with the CJ Cherryh _Chanur_ novels, in which most of our heroes are heroines, or Sheri S Tepper's _True Game_ series (ditto). As far as I'm aware, I've never made a conscious decision whether or not to buy or read a book based on the gender of the characters.
> ...



I actually think for the Vorkosigan thing it's that Miles is the better, more interesting character, which is, perhaps, due to her maturity as a writer. The Cordelia books seemed driven by a romantic agenda where the Miles ones don't. 

I tend to prefer both reading and writing males ... But i think it's because it's what I'm used to - having focused more on female povs I am more comfortable in them now.


----------



## Susan Boulton (Jun 7, 2013)

I think everyone relates to characters differently. You can't but see a character reflected through your own experiences and knowledge of the world.


----------



## Abernovo (Jun 7, 2013)

I said:


> I just suspect that male and female readers will tend to relate to characters in different ways. It might not help that we have a lot of intelligent and open-minded readers on chrons.


I'm going to disagree with you Brian, for the very reason you give here.

I think people read as people, not simply as a member of one sex or another - or any other subdivision of the human race. Certainly, I've never found any problem reading female PoV characters. Or fiction marketed primarily for women.

However, I think you're correct in that Chrons members tend to be well-read and thoughtful. But, I'd argue that it doesn't make us any different from anyone else. If you're told from childhood that this is for boys, that is for girls, and you should act like so, then most people will toe the line, and say what is required, even if they don't believe it, and keep their opinions to themselves. Because we here are used to discussing and dissecting books (and there's a fair number of happily awkward sods), we are perhaps more willing to rock the boat and say it openly.

Hmm, reading back over this, I hope it doesn't come across as pompous as I fear it might.


----------



## Mouse (Jun 7, 2013)

Aber, sounds absolutely spot on to me.


----------



## HoopyFrood (Jun 7, 2013)

I don't see friends and I certainly don't see lovers. I see characters that I want to be, or at  least traits that I envy. I want to be Locke with amazing conning skills. I want to be Kate Kane kicking all kinds of ass. I want to be Beatrice Kiddo with her amazing sword swinging ways.

But I think what it comes down to is what has already been said -- we are used to identifying with men, seeing them as characters. With films especially, the majority of major roles are for men, characters we watch for two hours and latch onto their desires (the plot of the film) whereas women have been girlfriends, love interests, background characters. 

I could go on one of my patented gender rants, but I'll leave it at that.


----------



## Stephen Palmer (Jun 8, 2013)

Agree with Abernovo - and well put.


----------



## Christopher Fritschi (Jun 9, 2013)

SJAB said:


> I think everyone relates to characters differently. You can't but see a character reflected through your own experiences and knowledge of the world.



Yes, and the same applies to authors. Some just can't seem to write a good member of the opposite sex and so alienate a whole chunk of their readership.


----------



## Connavar (Jun 10, 2013)

I said:


> My personal suspicion is that male readers are looking for a character they can inject themselves directly into, and that a physically strong everyman character, preferably with a streak of nobility (literary or moral) is the lowest common denominator to satisfy the majority of male readers.



Thats a generalisation that simplify things.  You are talking about men who want macho fantasy,SF action adventure books.

I have read many books trying to understand people different than me in culture and gender.  I have read books by for example Toni Morrison, Marguarite Duras, Kerstin Thorvall(Swedish modern great) so i could relate to their POV, the female characters, their situation,personal human issues that is the same no matter the gender.  Of course our gender makes us different in some ways but not so much that i cant relate to female characters and only want male fantasy injects.

Same in SFF books i dont want only male dominated books.  I have no trouble with CJ Cherryh, Sheri Tepper, Joanna Russ, Tanith Lee or many other books i have read filled with female characters.  Those are like fresh breath to me,

I have not grown up thinking male author, male characters are the norm.  Thank god for that.


----------



## hopewrites (Jun 11, 2013)

Are w talking about main characters or any characters?
When I read I want both kinds that have been listed. I want a character I can inject myself into. I want characters that will be my lovers, rivels, friends, betrayers, family, support and demise. 
Personally I prefer ensemble casts of characters so I can slip these titles on and off them as my mood and the story demands.

In discussing characters and story arcs with male and female friends I would venture to say that we relate to characters in the same way we relate to eachother. But to a lesser extent and through the confines the author presents them in.

If indeed our minds are so very different, characters in books and in shows may be a way for us to met in the middle. Relating to the same character in the same way but for different reasons or from different desires.


Ask not what you can do for your characters, but what your characters can do for you.


----------



## lauren$77 (Sep 12, 2013)

Christopher Fritschi said:


> Yes, and the same applies to authors. Some just can't seem to write a good member of the opposite sex and so alienate a whole chunk of their readership.



That's so true! I'm pretty sure many of the women in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time are actually the same woman. Perhaps Rand doesn't have three wives, its the same woman he just likes to spice things up a bit in his crazy head! 

It's actually impossible to know for sure whether women and men relate differently to characters as who can experience it from both perspectives. Surely at the end of the day it comes down to the individual and not what sex you are. Some people are more empathetic and just better at being able to see things from someone else's perspective and therefore relate differently to characters.


----------



## chongjasmine (Oct 5, 2013)

I am not a man, so I cannot answer for man. But as a woman, I tend to relate to the characters in an emotional manner. I do not like my favorite character to get killed, and I get upset if a book is too violent. I also tend to like male characters in a story more than I like a female character.


----------



## Precision Grace (Oct 6, 2013)

Fascinating question. 
[Has it been four years really? How is that even possible.]

Thinking about how I relate to the characters, I realise that it ranges across the spectrum and completely depends on the character and the situation. 

I remember being somewhat taken aback by the fact that I was identifying with Cthulhu , for a weird and unexpected example. But then I also found myself pouring into strong female leads  and maybe even seeking out books which had strong female leads so that I could indulge this need to pretend to be them. I wonder if my inability to get into The Life of Pi is something to do with not being able to identify with either of the characters. Someone once suggested I should persevere until the tiger appears but unfortunately I have never been able to get past the first page.

In the Discworld opus, I prefer the Witches books only because I like to pretend I am Granny Weatherwax but I don't feel like I have any kind of emotional relationship with any of the other characters. Except maybe You. and Grebo. ok and maybe Angua little bit. And the Patrician. But again, only because of identification. And before anyone suggests a friendly psychiatrist, actually no, I was not identifying with any of the Small Gods. Or even any of the American Gods or any of the characters in Good Omens. Except Damian. Ahem.

Whoever it was that suggested that life experience trumps gender in terms of being able to relate to the character is probably the most right (in my opinion)


----------



## Darth Angelus (Oct 6, 2013)

Precision Grace said:


> [Has it been four years really? How is that even possible.]


Do you mean, since you joined the forum?
Nope, it is not possible. Looking at the date beneath your avatar, it has to be five.


----------



## jastius (Oct 6, 2013)

Precision Grace said:


> _I wonder if my inability to get into The Life of Pi is something to do with not being able to identify with either of the characters. Someone once suggested I should persevere until the tiger appears but unfortunately I have never been able to get past the first page.
> _




try the movie.. the actor in it has a very nice tummy that completely enlivens the tedious parts of the book. 
after watching the movie several of my friends were enthused sufficiently to speed through the book.
 perhaps they should put out a graphics novel.


----------



## Toby Frost (Oct 7, 2013)

I think it's more types of characters rather than their genders that I do or don't identify with. In Halo Jones, which is an SF war story with an almost entirely-female cast, the characters are pretty easy to get since they end up fulfilling roles that tend to be done by men: maladjusted veteran, rookie, wise old sarge, dehumanised killer and so on. Although I've never been in a war, I find those (traditionally male) roles much easier to get than "housewife", say.

As far as relating to individual characters is concerned, I think there are interesting characters and dull ones, as well as good and bad. (It seems to be fairly common to think that good characters are inherently dull, which means that you're writing them wrong). Characters can win your emotional attachment, but to begin with, I'll always want to know whether they're interesting people. 

To give an example, at the moment I'm reading Retribution Falls by Christ Wooding. So far, all of the characters are fairly interesting, although they're broadly drawn and not terribly unusual. (It's not that sort of book). I suspect that they will become more nuanced as the story goes on, and that I'll come to see them more as sophisticated people, and hence more on an emotional level, rather than "this guy is pretty entertaining, I'll stick with him".


----------



## The Judge (Oct 7, 2013)

Hiya, Precision Grace!  Welcome back!  (Yep.  Looks like four years to me -- well, all but a few weeks -- 14 November 2009 to be gracefully precise...!)


----------



## Bick (Oct 14, 2013)

While I readily admit that most of what I've read has tended to have male leads or POV, I'm pretty sure I don't actually care whether the POV/perspective is male or female. The last three SF books I've read (by Cherryh, Weber and McDevitt), _all_ had a female perspective. I don't think I even gave the sex of the protagonist much thought to be honest, so I think I subscribe to the view that men (i.e my view, N=1) do not view characters differently depending on their sex, and that there probably isn't anything gender specific I'm looking for from characters in books. I'm not sure if that addresses the OP question, now I think about it  , but I'll throw it in the pot.


----------



## Gumboot (Oct 14, 2013)

Teresa Edgerton said:


> I think for my generation, we were brainwashed into reading so many books written from the male viewpoint by male writers (because those were the books that were supposed to be worth reading), that we got in the habit of relating to male characters -- in some books more than the female characters, who often were rather flat.
> 
> This may or may not have been easier to do because of tendencies already present in the female brain.




I think this probably plays a big part of it. I can only think of a few female writers whose work I have really enjoyed, and all of them wrote female POV characters except one, and that one male POV character really jarred with me as "not male".

I don't have as much of an issue with female characters written by males, which isn't surprising as I'm male too, so they're going to be more like how I think of females. But I do definitely notice a difference between the female characters written by men, and the ones written by women.

Hard to say though, because, as I say, the sample size of female characters I've read is so small.

I'd imagine if we'd have a more even mixture of female and male writers we'd all probably be much more familiar with the differences between males and females, and we'd _all_ benefit from being able to write more realistic characters of the opposite sex.


----------



## Toby Frost (Oct 14, 2013)

A small, slightly off-topic, point that suddenly occurs to me: in all of this discussion, I wonder if the right question is "Is this character convincing in this novel?" rather than "Is this character a convincing woman?"* 

On thing I've not really seen mentioned in the debate is that there does seem to be a firm belief among a lot of male writers, perhaps older ones, that women are mysterious aliens who operate in a totally different way to men. Some women are very different to most men, but I'm not sure that I'd put it any more firmly than that.

*or man as the case may be, but that's not the issue here.


----------



## Brian G Turner (Oct 19, 2013)

Toby Frost said:


> On thing I've not really seen mentioned in the debate is that there does seem to be a firm belief among a lot of male writers, perhaps older ones, that women are mysterious aliens who operate in a totally different way to men.



Well, I think this is still true:






However, I think the question "Is this character a convincing woman?" is still very pertinent - all too often I see woman characters who are written like men with boobs.


----------



## lauren$77 (Oct 19, 2013)

I said:


> Well, I think this is still true:
> 
> However, I think the question "Is this character a convincing woman?" is still very pertinent - all too often I see woman characters who are written like men with boobs.



Oh for heaven sakes IBrian. We're not aliens from outer space!!

If you really think that ridiculous image with the knobs portrays the differences between women and men well then it's true you don't understand women at all. Therefore you have no basis for saying "this female character is written like a man with boobs"?? because you wouldn't know!


----------



## The Judge (Oct 19, 2013)

I've only ever seen that switches/knobs thing as a joke about the difference between male and female sexuality.  (I think it's funny, anyway! ) 

Ahem. I think, as always, there's a kernal of truth in stereotypes -- of which that joke is one -- which are based on generalities and averages (means? medians?).  So, for instance, most women may well react to a plot/character/situation in a way most men wouldn't.  I don't think I'm going much out on a limb to say that more women than men would enjoy a Barbara Cartland novel, for instance, and they would therefore relate to one of her heroines in a way most men wouldn't.  But that doesn't mean every woman will react that way, nor every man the other way.  Their sex is a factor in how they react and relate to anything.  It may be a great factor, if only because of societal pressure and norms (to be told "You can't like that, you're a boy" often enough may well result in the child not liking it).  But it is not the only factor -- education, job/profession, religious belief or otherwise, ethnicity, IQ, EQ, life experience, will all play a part.

However, although as individuals we are unique, as soon as you start corralling people into groups, you'll see bell curves.  Those bell curves may well start and end in different places when it comes to reading and relating to characters if you divide the groups by sex.  But the same could be said if you divide people by ethnicity or IQ.


----------



## HareBrain (Oct 19, 2013)

The Judge said:


> However, although as individuals we are unique, as soon as you start corralling people into groups, you'll see bell curves.



And you'll see a lot more "bell curves" in groups made up of women, right lads?

(Please, help me. I really didn't want to post this.)


----------



## alchemist (Oct 19, 2013)

HareBrain said:


> And you'll see a lot more "bell curves" in groups made up of women, right lads?
> 
> (Please, help me. I really didn't want to post this.)




Yeah, man!

*high five*

(I'm just doing this to save you, I hope you understand)


----------



## lauren$77 (Oct 19, 2013)

Yeah of course *rolls eyes to heaven*


----------



## Mouse (Oct 19, 2013)

Urgh, I thought this thread had died.


----------



## alchemist (Oct 19, 2013)

I have a problem with the notion that some male writers can't write women, and vice versa, which is the assumption that they CAN write somebody of their own gender.

If we say, for instance, George can't write women, it means we think he has a better handle on the male psyche. But George's experience of women is as extensive as his experience of men, with one exception -- himself. Why should being a man equip him better to write men, who can be as diverse as any other grouping of people? In effect, is George writing himself, because that's the only person he truly knows?

Sorry if that's a bit rambling. I barely understand it myself.


----------



## lauren$77 (Oct 19, 2013)

I'm sure your right Alc!

I have a different issue, thought I'd put out there. But maybe this should be another thread I'm not sure.

I've been told my female MC isn't a great role model for young women. Now I'm not disputing that, but I don't see why she should have to be. I mean if my MC was male would there be the same expectation for him to be a good role model for young men...I think not! So isn't it a little insulting that many people presume young women are the ones that need positive role models in the first place!

Just wondered if other people have had this experience in there writing?


----------



## Abernovo (Oct 19, 2013)

lauren$77 said:


> I'm sure your right Alc!
> 
> I have a different issue, thought I'd put out there. But maybe this should be another thread I'm not sure.
> 
> ...


If somebody's going to play that 'should be a good role model for-' card, then it should be equal. And, I do think there should be good role models for boys. In fact, I've seen that argument made repeatedly in the last few months -- an effort to change objectification of women and homophobia etc. But, is it used as a club to beat male authors? No, I doubt it very much. Nor should it be, just as the 'role model for girls' _shouldn't_ be used as a club to beat female authors.

All that said, I agree with alc. People are people, and characters should be written as such. Flawed, good and bad. I don't write men, or women, only people. And, with a few tweaks, I suspect many of them could become the opposite sex, or gender, or possibly even aliens (as aliens in fiction, if they're characterised, are just people in a different form).


----------



## alchemist (Oct 19, 2013)

lauren$77 said:


> I'm sure your right Alc!
> 
> I have a different issue, thought I'd put out there. But maybe this should be another thread I'm not sure.
> 
> ...



That's a bit silly, really. I suspect your reader reads mostly novels from a bygone age. 

In fact, that comment would make me more interested in reading about this character now!


----------



## AnyaKimlin (Oct 19, 2013)

Just don't try convincing your readers your main character is an ugly, pathetic, wimp lol  On that I did note a distinct split with my male/female readers -- male readers were much more likely to buy into an unattractive rather than an insecure character.


----------



## Stephen Palmer (Oct 20, 2013)

Let's all just write human beings.


----------



## Darkchild130 (Oct 20, 2013)

I don't really differentiate between sex as far as characters go, though I prefer male protagonists as I am male and I like to "be" the main character as I read.

Can't really say I relate to feelings and such, I relate to qualities I value like strength and focus. I tend to dislike characters that get too emotional as I'm practically a sociopath, I can't empathise with them at all so they annoy me.
In this regard, you could say I relate to male characters more, simply because female characters tend to be written as more emotionally sensitive.


----------



## Jo Zebedee (Oct 20, 2013)

Darkchild130;1758089[QUOTE said:
			
		

> ]I don't really differentiate between sex as far as characters go, though I prefer male protagonists as I am male and I like to "be" the main character as I read.



And yet, for years, most sff had a male protagonist (and still does, to be fair) and women were expected to read and "be" that character. It's still one of the arguments used to perpetuate the arguments against female sci fi writers -- that most people who read sci fi are men -- and it doesn't stack up. There are many, many more female readers of sci-fi than traditional perceptions allow for, and we're expected to get on with buying into male characters. 

Having said that, my main piece of sci fi work has a male mc. Possibly because when I came up with the idea it was 20 years ago and female mcs were in the minority in the stuff I read. Bowler1 suggested, when he read it, that I'd have been better having the mc the protagonist's twin, a female, and I've often wondered what that would have read as. It would have been a different book, certainly, but I'm not sure it would have been any stronger. 




> In this regard, you could say I relate to male characters more, simply because female characters tend to be written as more emotionally sensitive.


Sorry, this is a massive generalisation. In the same trilogy as above my main female character is about as emotionally sensitive as a stone. And that's the nice one of the two central females... She runs roughshod over everyone's feelings, is emotionally manipulative. That's not because she's female, it's because that's the type of character she is. 


And there are many female characters out there who are not emotionally sensitive -- I'm thinking, for instance, of the girl in Abercrombie's The Blade Itself, the psycho girl, or Cersei in GOT, or even someone like Cordelia in Bujold, who is Empathetic and "gets people" but not emotional.  

For me, I don't care if it's a male or female mc provided they feel real. I like to be close in, know that person, and be that person. I don't need to be the same sex as them to have empathy.


----------



## Darkchild130 (Oct 20, 2013)

I'm not putting forward an argument, I like my protagonists to be male because I am, simple as.

And yes it is a sweeping generalisation about emotional characters. It's also a true one. Far more fictional female characters are sensitive than male ones.


----------

