# Science and Magic



## Icyphoenix (Jul 14, 2012)

I've always wonder what people see in Magic. For me, Magic is an extension of science, a huge amount of directed energy if you must which can accomplish what is otherwise impossible. How does everyone else feel? Do you see it as something seperate to science/reality beyond normal rules or a part of an alternate reality which still maintains a system of sorts?


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## Shane Enochs (Jul 14, 2012)

Magic is just science that hasn't been discovered yet.  For example, alchemy (once considered magic) laid the foundation to modern chemistry.


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## Metryq (Jul 14, 2012)

Corollary to Clarke's Law: Any sufficiently repeatable magic is indistinguishable from technology.


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## Icyphoenix (Jul 15, 2012)

I suppose it is, given it is just another tool. But what do you want from Magic when you write? Is it an understood force, an unexplained force or something more akin to a miracle?


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## rune (Jul 16, 2012)

I think sci fi, is more based on current science with forward thinking of how it could progress.
Magic to me is something that is totally make believe, probably never achievable


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## Dave (Jul 17, 2012)

If I'm reading fantasy I neither need nor want my magic to be explained - it's just "magic." It is a mystery wrapped in an enigma.

On the other hand, if I'm reading science fiction then it must have a scientific explanation - this could be something we have not yet discovered or explained yet i.e. telekinesis, telepathy and other psionics - or it could be that that the mana that once existed in the world has been exhausted from the overuse of magic - or it could be those darn midichlorians!  (actually, I'd rather have not had the midichlorians after all.)


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## hopewrites (Jul 17, 2012)

for me magic has many persona.

in one sense I really like and hold to the idea that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic to the undereducated.

but when magic is most real I find it a physical manifestation of an noncommunicable emotional response.

true to both: when I was a little girl I loved fireworks. they were magical to me, only the strongest and bravest of men could cast the spell that ran shrieking into the sky to burst into a glory of sound and color. my heart soared with each burst and I felt peace and serenity fall gently back down upon me with each fading spark.

now of course i'm older and they hold no magic for me at all. I know that anyone with a match or lighter can set them off, that they can be purchased like cheese or socks, and that anything i felt at seeing them was only a product of my own ignorant imagination.

you could say that in growing up i moved to less tangible fireworks, the electric touch of my partner's hand in a swift paced dance as their fingers just escape and only a rock-step can launch me back into their arms, the warm embrace that soothes all mental anguish in a warm cup of love-flavored delight, the mind-snatching thrill of a beloved story...

the ability to communicate what one feels to another never ceases to be magical to me.


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## Icyphoenix (Jul 17, 2012)

In that case, would you call telekinesis magic or science? People can come up with very extensive explaination on the workings of telekinesis but there is always the factor that it is improbable, it not impossible. 

Also, if magic is something unknown, as a writer creating that magic, do you have a system nevertheless which your story characters do not understand or do you just write the magic having the same lack of understanding as the characters in your story?


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## Dave (Jul 17, 2012)

Icyphoenix said:


> In that case, would you call telekinesis magic or science?


In the real world? If it _really_ exists then I think there must be a scientific explanation for it. We just haven't found one yet; but we may in the future. I don't believe in magic myself, only in illusions. However, I fully realise that there are many people who do believe in magic and that they can cast spells themselves. I could be wrong and they may be right. I don't expect to ever know for certain.



Icyphoenix said:


> Also, if magic is something unknown, as a writer creating that magic, do you have a system nevertheless which your story characters do not understand or do you just write the magic having the same lack of understanding as the characters in your story?


I'm not a writer, however, I've read books which use both those methods. In general, those set in the modern day seem to need to have a system, while in those set in more unenlightened historical times the magic is usually unexplained. I think I prefer the unexplained magic, but that is only because none of the systems really seemed very believable. If someone came up with a better explanation I'd certainly read that.


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## Icyphoenix (Jul 17, 2012)

Dave said:


> I think I prefer the unexplained magic, but that is only because none of the systems really seemed very believable. If someone came up with a better explanation I'd certainly read that.


 
What do you find as a believable system? It's just that once the system is too believable, wouldn't it be sci-fi, not magic any more?


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## Dave (Jul 17, 2012)

Icyphoenix said:


> What do you find as a believable system? It's just that once the system is too believable, wouldn't it be sci-fi, not magic any more?


You have a very good point there. That is exactly why the midichlorians didn't work in _Star Wars_ but in the original trilogy _The Force_ did.

I don't know what a believable system would be.

I did like the idea (_The Magic Goes Away_) that using enchantment consumes all the mana in the immediate vicinity, and that once the world was filled with mana but that it was a finite resource that has been steadily used up over time and is now exhausted. As you say though, that logical approach does make it into sci-fi.


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## Icyphoenix (Jul 17, 2012)

I like to think anything where there is a slight variable in the equation which is definitely impossible is classify as magic. Example would be mana, completely non-existant but works as a form of explaination. But what I'm really interested is what everyone else defines it. I specialise too much in magic with full explainations therefore I find the other method intriging. How do you work in magic which just doesn't have any reasoning?


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## Jo Zebedee (Jul 17, 2012)

that's my answer to that, and I suspect I'm pushing even my admittedly dodgy definition of sci fi in my sequel (and am wincing in advance of feedback to that effect...)

I have a mix of sci fi with magic powers (sort of, it's a little more complex) which places my wip directly into science fantasy - which is probably my preference to read, anyway. 

Very few people have come back and said I can't have it... and I have tried to make the rest of the book at least soundish for space opera, and am seeing it like a novel about magic in the real world - we suspend our disbelief for books about witches - why not in books set in the future? 

And I think that's the key - if you can get to the point where the reader is interested/convinced enough to buy into it, then the magic and what lies behind it, should be accepted, provided you keep it consistent, within the book, in terms of how it works, how powerful it is, countermeasures etc. etc.


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## Metryq (Jul 17, 2012)

For me the difference between the Force in the original STAR WARS trilogy and the midichlorians in the prequels is the difference between symbolic and literal interpretation. Substitute "the Force" with "love", "respect", "empathy" or any number of other words, and the dialog still makes sense. "The Force" is the interaction of everything in the universe. Meanwhile the prequels turned a Jedi's power into a disease. In the original trilogy Vader, the Emperor and Yoda could all "feel" Luke's power, even from lightyears away. In PHANTOM MENACE Calgon had to take a blood sample to determine Anakin's power.

In a similar vein, the heroes in the original trilogy knew what they were doing and knowingly risked their lives—including Han Solo, which is why shooting Greedo in the cantina was such a vital part of his character development. In the prequels heroism was reduced to dumb luck: Anakin jumped into a fighter which took him through the battle lines completely on automatic pilot. Down on the planet, JarJar knocked over a cart full of grenades, or got a battle droid stuck on his ankle. Heroism by buffoonery. No wonder I left the cinema feeling empty.

Unexplained magic is the symbolic sort. For example, let's say a younger person gets into some kind of really deep trouble and then rescued by an older character. We need not know how the older character made the problem go away (money, pulling favors with friends or other connections, etc.). The older character's unstated resources are "magic." 

Explained magic is technology.


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## Karn Maeshalanadae (Jul 18, 2012)

For writing purposes, the way I think of magic is a kind of natural mental energy output strong enough to manipulate environment and other beings. I never explain it within stories though.


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## Icyphoenix (Jul 18, 2012)

That's exactly the same as me!  I change the source and use of that energy/force but the general idea is the same.


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## Karn Maeshalanadae (Jul 18, 2012)

That's still not to say that all of my universe's magic is the same. Emotions play a part, and each different style has to be trained. And as it's essentially thinking and willpower, it's draining, and can be to the point of death. Generic, I know, but it works.


Alchemy is the exception. Alchemy is alchemy. As a twist, though, I have blended alchemy with our modern day genetic engineering.


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## Icyphoenix (Jul 18, 2012)

Sounds interesting, I don't think I've ever considered genetic with alchemy before. I've written genetic with blood magic and chemistry with potions though, those work quite well for me.  The only alchemy i've written is more like magical technology.


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## planetocean (Aug 2, 2012)

SCIENCE AND MAGIC I think  can mean different things, for one science can prove or disprove certain things, whereas magic is just out their.


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## mohk (Aug 4, 2012)

Unexplained magic is one of my very few points of iritation with fantasy novels.

If the one performing the magic knows as little of how it works as the reader (eg. Sword of Truth), that's not so bad, but when there's a competent wizard/alternative that is magic savvy and there's not explanation of the limitations of their ability, their sudden all-powerful spell that overcomes their greatest adversary in the worst conditions is meaningless.

Take the Bridge of Khazad-dûm as an example. If Gandalf can prevent passage of the Balrog by stabbing the floor and shouting "you shall not pass", why not do that right at the start? And why not use it at the doors of the tomb to prevent that whole fight anyway? (I'm aware of the ENORMOUS wealth of background information of LotR, of which I'm mostly ignorant, so this might be a bad example. Similar situations in countless other books though.)

I like the capabilities and limitations of magic to be explained. I think magic is most effective in stories when it is scientifically possible if you excuse one or two fundamental points that render it utterly impossible in our real world.

Take the Mistborn Trilogy. The basic powers adhere to rudimentary physics, with the exception of becoming an electromagnet upon the consumption of a specific metal.

Coming up with an original system also scores brownie points, rather than going with the age-old, and frankly _poor_ good magic vs bad magic. "Any sufficiently advanced technology may appear as magic"... sure. That's a great thought and I love it, but technology is a tool. It is not inherently good or evil. Magic should be the same.

If the reader has an idea how the protagonist's magic is limited, the peril seems more real. They can't just pluck an almighty spell out of no-where.


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## goldhawk (Aug 4, 2012)

Magic is a phenomenon that people can't explain. Entanglement is magic; black holes are magic; where your sock goes when the dryer eats it is magic.


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