# Fantasy from the Point of View of Servants



## EdLincoln (Apr 1, 2019)

Lots of fantasy is from the point of view of Kings, Princes and Heroes.  A fair amount of "Little Guy" fantasy is from the point of view of peasants.  There is also some where the hero starts as a slave, although for some reason usually the slave portion is referenced in the backstory and hand waived away in a few pages.  

What fantasy series are from the point of view of servants, butlers, palace cooks, etc.?


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## Boaz (Apr 2, 2019)

Sam Gamgee was a gardener.  Of course, the rest of the fellowship consisted of landed gentry, princes, a noble, a king, and an angel.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Apr 2, 2019)

There are sometimes kitchen boys, but unfortunately (for what you are looking for) they don't stay kitchen boys for long.

I actually read a story quite recently where the hero was a kitchen boy (by-blow of the King and a servant) but come the revolution he took on a more heroic role, and the other servants had either been killed, captured, or fled.  The female lead was an apothecary/alchemist.  There were some characters who were royal, but they were secondary, and the hero did not turn out to be the true heir or anything like that.  It's called* An Affair of Poisons*.  YA, if that matters to you.

Though there are kings and queens and princes and wizards in Patricia McKillip's *Book of Atrix Wolfe* quite a bit of the story takes place in the kitchens, with Saro who is a scullery maid, and of course the kitchen staff. McKillip often writes about characters who are musicians, and weavers, and scribes, etc.  Even the Prince of Hed, in the riddle master trilogy, is basically a farmer.

But writers of books where all the main characters are servants, I can't think of any off the top of my head.


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## HareBrain (Apr 2, 2019)

Some of the significant POV characters in Mervyn Peake's _Gormenghast _trilogy are servants: the butler and cook, IIRC.

Simon, the central character in Tad Williams's _The Dragonbone Chair_, starts a kitchen servant.


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## Danny McG (Apr 2, 2019)

Yeah, I've been trying to think of "that one where the kitchen maid is the main protagonist", but then it all came back to me. _Dragonflight_!
 Not really what we are looking for, as she turned out to have the noble blood and could talk to every dragon.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Apr 2, 2019)

Simon was who I was hinting at at the beginning of my post.

I didn't think about the servants in Gormenghast, although of course they are there.  School-teachers, too, and a whole school of boys.  Actually, somewhere in Gormenghast there is probably just about anything you can think of.

____

We double-posted, Danny.  She doesn't stay in the kitchen long, either.  There seems to be a fantasy highway that runs straight through the kitchen, but it always seems to lead elsewhere.

I think a fantasy story about a valet or lady's maid could be quite interesting.  They'd know all the secrets of their employers.  Servants as main characters are getting sort of popular in mysteries, now that I think of it.  So maybe a fantasy mystery with upstairs and downstairs characters might be a treat.  Maybe someone has written one.


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## HareBrain (Apr 2, 2019)

Teresa Edgerton said:


> Simon was who I was hinting at at the beginning of my post.



I thought it might be. And though he stops being a servant part way through, the length of book before that is still about the size of some novels!


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## Dave (Apr 2, 2019)

"A fair amount of "Little Guy" fantasy"

Does Terry Pratchett count?


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## The Big Peat (Apr 2, 2019)

Guy Gavriel Kay's _The Lions of Al-Rassan _has a doctor who spends a lot of time in a sorta-servant role as the MC; that's the first one to leap to mind off the top of my head.


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## picklematrix (Apr 2, 2019)

The Storm light Archives by Brandon Sanderson have a lot of POVs, a few of which are from servant, slave or similar position characters.


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## EdLincoln (Apr 3, 2019)

Good suggestions!  I'll have to check out "An Affair of Poisons".

I don't necessarily mind if only the main character is a servant, or if they secretly have noble blood.  (Who is more  likely to secretly have a noble father then a palace servant?).  I would prefer that they actually spend a fair amount of the story as a servant.  It would be interesting to have a character who spent much of their life interacting with the nobility in a very specific way suddenly develop a Special Power or turn out to be the Chosen One.  (It would be amusing to have a middle aged valet turn out to be the Chosen One.)  It would also be interesting to use the fact servants know everyone's business as a key advantage the hero has.

*The Alchemist's Apprentice* had the hero get a job as a servant for a while to gather information, and that was interesting.  Servant wasn't her career though, just a means to an end.  *The Young Ancients* had a scene where the young baker was the only one in the party who knew how to cook or do basic things because all the others were nobles who had servants do things for them.  (The latter series kind of imploded, though...)


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## Dragonlady (Apr 7, 2019)

Servants feature heavily in Robin Hobb's assassin's apprentice story as the hero is effectively working for htem. Though he has royal blood he spends a lot of his life being more like  a servant than a noble. This stuff fascinates me and I feel like writing one now.


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## picklematrix (Apr 8, 2019)

'Memory, Sorrow and Thorn' has a servant boy as the main character. 
Only just remembered. 
Pretty decent series written by Tad Williams.


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## The Judge (Apr 8, 2019)

For a fantasy novel from a slave's perspective where the slavery aspect is more than backstory and not simply handwaved away quickly, there's *Transformation* by Carol Berg.  (Yes, sure enough he doesn't end the book as a slave, but it takes a long while to get there.)


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## Vladd67 (Apr 8, 2019)

Not exactly servants but I recently watched these videos again




And it occurred to me that your humble city guard is often overlooked as well, after all somebody as to clean up the mess after the hero or rogue has done their thing in town.


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## Narkalui (Apr 8, 2019)

Guards! Guards! in that case, a book which is in fact dedicated to these fine men.


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## Pyan (Apr 8, 2019)

*The Golden Key*, set in an alternative Renaissance Spain, is all to do with the rivalry and magic of the court portrait painter families, servants of a sort.

The Golden Key: Melanie Rawn, Jennifer Roberson, Kate Elliott


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## Teresa Edgerton (Apr 8, 2019)

I'll note that characters of the middle class are generally absent in fantasy.  Which is interesting, because we readers are generally middle class and one might expect we would identify with such characters.   But, no, in general readers want thieves and assassin, orphans and beggars, or else members of the upper nobility.  Everyone in between is ignored.  Yet a doctor (and I mean an ordinary doctor, not a magical healer) would be an interesting character to follow in war time, a lawyer in time of political upheaval.  Seamstresses (the kind of sewing woman who comes to the house), barbers and hairdressers (I imagine people confided in them in the old days just as they do now) would all make excellent spies.


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## Narkalui (Apr 8, 2019)

The Tailor Of Altdorf, anyone?


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## Teresa Edgerton (Apr 8, 2019)

In fairy tales, however, tailors get good press.


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## Parson (Apr 9, 2019)

Well tailors generally do pressing.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Apr 9, 2019)

Ouch.


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## Toby Frost (Apr 9, 2019)

I agree about the Gormenghast books, where a lot of characters are basically servants, but have a lot of power within the castle ("retainers" sounds more accurate). They feel more Victorian than medieval, and there's something of a sense of Gormenghast being as much a Victorian stately home than a literal fortress.

While it's stereotypical for fantasy characters to be high-ranking in a mock-medieval or feudal setting, such people would at least have the freedom to go places and make decisions, which servants wouldn't. A book about servants might end up just reporting what the nobles did, or being about very minor palace intrigue rather than the big events people like to read about. The people who could do stuff ("have agency", as the jargon has it) would naturally be at the top, where they had the power to do what they pleased, and at the very bottom, where nobody cared.

I suppose as society went on and became more complex, the middle classes grew and a body of skilled tradesmen - not just someone who could put up a hut, but make it comfortable and attractive - became more important. And if anyone in a setting has the same chance to be born with the ability to do magic, that could be a great social leveller, as the majority of wizards would start off as commoners.


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## Parson (Apr 9, 2019)

Toby Frost said:


> I suppose as society went on and became more complex, the middle classes grew and a body of skilled tradesmen - not just someone who could put up a hut, but make it comfortable and attractive - became more important.



This made me think of a book which is technically historical fiction, but it does look at a time when people who could become the middle class because of their ability to do things and therefore had the agency to live what we would call "interesting lives." *Pillars of the earth* by *Ken Follett* brought me into that historical time forcefully and enjoyably.


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## The Big Peat (Apr 13, 2019)

Teresa Edgerton said:


> I'll note that characters of the middle class are generally absent in fantasy.  Which is interesting, because we readers are generally middle class and one might expect we would identify with such characters.   But, no, in general readers want thieves and assassin, orphans and beggars, or else members of the upper nobility.  Everyone in between is ignored.  Yet a doctor (and I mean an ordinary doctor, not a magical healer) would be an interesting character to follow in war time, a lawyer in time of political upheaval.  Seamstresses (the kind of sewing woman who comes to the house), barbers and hairdressers (I imagine people confided in them in the old days just as they do now) would all make excellent spies.



Double like for this post. Stories about those between the elite and the outcasts are few too rare.



Toby Frost said:


> While it's stereotypical for fantasy characters to be high-ranking in a mock-medieval or feudal setting, such people would at least have the freedom to go places and make decisions, which servants wouldn't. A book about servants might end up just reporting what the nobles did, or being about very minor palace intrigue rather than the big events people like to read about. The people who could do stuff ("have agency", as the jargon has it) would naturally be at the top, where they had the power to do what they pleased, and at the very bottom, where nobody cared.



Where there's a will there's a way, starting with having them in a multi PoV story where not everyone is a servant. 

You can toss a servant into the adventuring party and have them venture off on a journey so dire that everyone has to make decisions as Lord of the Rings did; you can have a servant in a group heading to foreign lands where the servant is the only person who knows the place thus making them crucially important, as Julian Rathbone did in _Kings of Albion_. You could make them the eminence grise, or you could go all soap opera, or have them hiding witch powers, or have them the person who discovers the suspicious infernal meeting down in the castle's bowels. Or whatever really. You could have picaresque novel in which two servants have a bet about who can get their master made the new Baron of Brownnose. Maybe they're not the most period appropriate ideas, but that's rarely stopped people before in terms of how much faux to have with the feudal.

The big thing is no one's been looking to explore these avenues - that or nobody believed they'd sell - not that there's nothing to explore there.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Apr 13, 2019)

Certain servants would almost invariably travel with their employers, so they could be moving about a lot, if not precisely of their own will. Indoor servants like valets, gentlemen's gentlemen, and dressers. (Dressers are like lady's maids, but of higher rank in the servants hierarchy because they are more highly trained and only concerned with the lady's hair and wardrobe—upon which they often advise her—and don't do more menial, less specialized, stuff which could safely be left in the hands of such lowly individuals—dressers tend to be toplofty, and look down on the lesser servants—as the chamber maids, like serve her breakfast in bed, etc.   When travelling one might leave a mere lady's maid at home and make do with a servant belonging to the host's household, but an experienced dresser is too vital to one's image as a person of fashion to be left behind.) Outdoor servants like grooms and coachmen—which may be old family retainers and therefore utterly trustworthy.  In mystery novels, there is often a trusted servant who assists the employer to solve mysteries (yes, I am looking at you Lord Peter Wimsey and gentleman's gentleman Mervyn Bunter, but also many who have followed in your mighty footsteps).  Why could it not be so in a fantasy novel if the employer is a spy, diplomat, or amateur detective, and the servant is secretly his or her assistant in unravelling vital puzzles?  Or if the employer is a magician of some sort travelling in disguise, an apprentice magician might go along disguised as a valet or dresser.

Also, highly qualified servants with good references are always in high demand.  Such an individual might change jobs almost at will, and it might put them in high ranking households where important things turn out to be going on.  If it was a series, the servant could be with a different employer, in a different city, facing a different set of challenges in every book.  Servants see and hear a lot (in part because aristocrats don't deign to notice their presence much of the time) and they gossip together in the servant's hall, so the servant protagonist would surely interact with the other servants a lot in discovering important facts about the situation at hand.  Not to mention being the "invisible" person who overhears or observes things his- or herself.


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## EdLincoln (Apr 24, 2019)

Teresa Edgerton said:


> I'll note that characters of the middle class are generally absent in fantasy.  Which is interesting, because we readers are generally middle class and one might expect we would identify with such characters.   But, no, in general readers want thieves and assassin, orphans and beggars, or else members of the upper nobility.  Everyone in between is ignored.  Yet a doctor (and I mean an ordinary doctor, not a magical healer) would be an interesting character to follow in war time, a lawyer in time of political upheaval.  Seamstresses (the kind of sewing woman who comes to the house), barbers and hairdressers (I imagine people confided in them in the old days just as they do now) would all make excellent spies.



Part of this is the lamentable tendency to "Dial Everything up to 11". I'm reminded of a line from the "Requiem for a Ruler of Worlds" series, where a charecters coments he bounces back and forth between the world of the super-rich and the slums that if they ever ended up in a Middle Class house they wouldn't know what to do.  

"Torn" by Rowenna Miller is from the point of view of a dressmaker who makes mildly magical dresses for the rich, trying to run a luxury business during a revolution.  "The Healers Road" is a weird book about an ex-military medic and magical healer in a Fantasy World equivalent of the Peace Corp.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Apr 24, 2019)

Did you read "Torn" @EdLincoln ?  If so, what did you think of it?  I downloaded the sample and was very close to buying the book, but some of the reviews made it sound like it might disappoint me.  I have since bounced back and forth on the issue of whether to get it, so your opinion, if you read it, would be welcome.


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## EdLincoln (Apr 25, 2019)

Teresa Edgerton said:


> Did you read "Torn" @EdLincoln ?



I read it and sort of liked it.  Original idea and nothing was fundamentally *WRONG* with it...The romance plot was in no way horrifying (a selling point in itself).  I liked the dynamics between the revolutionary brother and upwardly mobile and family oriented sister. There was some subtle and clever commentary on gender in there.  A little bit slow, and I'm ambivalent about the end.  Vaguely French Revolution setting with low-key magic.  I liked that it addressed social issues without bashing you over the head with parallels to current real world situations.  Out of curiosity, what made you think it would be disappointing?


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## Teresa Edgerton (Apr 25, 2019)

Some of the reviews I read made it sound slow (which you say it is, a bit) and more about people discussing politics than going out and making events happen.  Which would not necessarily be bad, but not what I was in the mood for at the time.

So thanks.  I've been tilting more and more toward buying it, and what you have said has not altered that trajectory, so maybe I will go ahead and do it.


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## EdLincoln (Apr 26, 2019)

Hmmmm...I didn't see it as "people talking about politics" when I read it, but when I think about the book it kind of is.  Not nearly as bad as Frank Herbert or Eric Flint.  The main character's plans are mostly focused on building her career and sort of unravling a mystery, then politics hits.  In some ways this was a selling point, since I've sort of ODd on books that dial the action up to 11.  (You may hav noticd that last is a pet peeve of mine right now...)


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## Teresa Edgerton (Apr 26, 2019)

I sympathize.  I sometimes grow impatient with the idea that everything has to be BOOM, BOOM, CRASH, SPLAT action from the first paragraph.  I suppose that is why so many characters these days are thieves and assassins and warriors, instead of ordinary people going about their ordinary business until they are pushed or pulled into taking part in extraordinary events. If they are already involved with some risky business, the writer can start with a chase or a fight or something equally dramatic on page one.


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## The Big Peat (Apr 26, 2019)

EdLincoln said:


> "The Healers Road" is a weird book about an ex-military medic and magical healer in a Fantasy World equivalent of the Peace Corp.



Thod. There had been me hoping that idea hadn't been used much yet. Oh well, I never did much with that story anyway.


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## Montero (Apr 26, 2019)

Curse of Chalion - Lois McMaster Bujold - MC becomes a tutor. (Though he is ex-military and noble.)
If you want a real life ladies maid story - "Rose My Life in Service to Lady Astor" by Rosina Harrison - first half twentieth century not Medieval but fascinating.
Incidentally, i heard of one of the published gentleman's diaries - possibly not Cobbett's Rural Rides - but similar sort of 17th century period, where the gentleman wrote about and published an account of his journeys and reads like he was on his own. In the last few pages you learn that he had a servant with him - only because he is cursing the servant for having lost a bag.

Mentioning middle class - in some ways Lois McM B's Sharing Knife series is middle class - there is no current noble class. Prosperous farmers and merchants are the top level and there is no mention of a national government.


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## Writersmirror (May 10, 2019)

Mmh... Have you ever read _The Red Queen_ by Victoria Aveyard? It's about a girl, who lives in a world, which is discern by blood. The silver ones – those have silver blood and superpowers – are the rich noble one. The red ones are the normal ones. And our hero is a red... or she believes she is one. Because (spoiler!) later, in the book, she discovers that some reds – like her – have superpowers like the silver ones. (Spoiler ends!) And the girl is a poor one.


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## pambaddeley (May 10, 2019)

In Diana Wynne Jones' *Conrad's Fate* the protagonist is made to go and work as a servant at the big house, though he is there undercover. There is quite a lot of interesting upstairs/downstairs material in that.


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## hitmouse (Jun 4, 2019)

Servants: try Conrad's Fate by Diana Wyn Jones. 
Middle Class: Harry Potter


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## Dragonlady (Jun 28, 2019)

my current protagonist is a dragon hunter. (doesn't actually kill them unless necessary). Basically a tradesperson.


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## Narkalui (Jun 28, 2019)

A pest controller, even?


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## Karn's Return (Jun 29, 2019)

EdLincoln said:


> (It would be amusing to have a middle aged valet turn out to be the Chosen One.)





Just like how every heroic artifact in fantasy is always something related to every day battle or some form of jewelry. Rings, swords, shields, armor, amulets, etc.


It would be amusing to see the needed artifact sort of fantasy have it wind up being a dinner fork or a rake or something.


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