# What does Fantasy need?



## SDNess (Jan 4, 2004)

I had been planning to discuss this topic anyway, but the "Fantasy or SF" thread really sparked my interest.

Many people say that modern fantasy contains to much of the same old stuff. However, in some cases this is definetly not true. 

What are some ideas that you would like to see appear?


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## dwndrgn (Jan 4, 2004)

I haven't really thought about the question as you've asked it but I've noticed a lot of new ideas lately.  For example I'm reading "The Chosen" by Roberto Pinto which has a great deal of new and interesting facets - mostly based around a rigid and brutal caste system that delineates the races.  I'm only about a third of the way through as it is a difficult read.  Not for the prose itself, it is actually very well written, but so far only depressing, sad and cruel things have happened and I'm finding it hard to slog through.  I mean to finish it though because it is unique and well written.

I like different views, such as the one in "The Golden Key", a collaboration between a couple of authors whose names escape me right now.  In this story the magic element comes through art, specifically painting.

Many of the 'themes' will always stay the same, I believe, because readers look for certain things from recreational reading.  We look for something we can't get from our everyday lives; adventure, morality, nobility, personal triumphs, companionship, fun...at least these are what I enjoy.  We  also like to learn new things, identify with the characters, feel emotions along with them, etc.  Again, these are my own personal feelings and others might look for other things.

As far as a lot of fantasy being 'similar' to each other, I don't really follow that view.  I've found very few that are so similar that reading both is a waste of time.  Of course many elements will be similar but each story and each character has their own uniqueness.  Even down to similar elements as dragons and elves - each author brings their own vision.  I've read about evil elves, dragons can be sentient or more beastlike, wizards can be humble and wise, miserable and cranky, villainous and greedy - so even cliches can be given new life if seen through a different author's vision.  So I don't really think that fantasy 'needs' anything.  Except maybe more authors .


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## SDNess (Jan 4, 2004)

More authors...heh. 



> As far as a lot of fantasy being 'similar' to each other, I don't really follow that view. I've found very few that are so similar that reading both is a waste of time. Of course many elements will be similar but each story and each character has their own uniqueness. Even down to similar elements as dragons and elves - each author brings their own vision. I've read about evil elves, dragons can be sentient or more beastlike, wizards can be humble and wise, miserable and cranky, villainous and greedy - so even cliches can be given new life if seen through a different author's vision.


So it doesn't bother you that many fantasy novels are other writer's versions of LotR or volumes of unending sagas that become ridiculous in their length and too complex?

It is not boring to read rehashes of magical races drawing the line between good/evil and battling it out? Or perilous quests for magical items?

Maybe I am overlooking something...but a lot of fantasy seems this way to me.

I am asking these questions as a _writer_. I want to find something that will make a difference in the fantasy genre. As a _reader_, however, I agree with what you said above.


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## dwndrgn (Jan 4, 2004)

SDNess said:
			
		

> So it doesn't bother you that many fantasy novels are other writer's versions of LotR or volumes of unending sagas that become ridiculous in their length and too complex?
> 
> It is not boring to read rehashes of magical races drawing the line between good/evil and battling it out? Or perilous quests for magical items?


Not really no.  It doesn't bother me that most mystery novels have a bad guy and a good guy and a mystery to be solved either.  It is the nature of the genre.  The closest I've ever seen of a 'LOTR' knockoff was Terry Brooks' Shannara series and they were good in their own right as they had characters that were different, situations and moral questions of their own to ask and have answered...etc.  

As an avid reader, I'm going to come accross an unoriginal idea or two.  However, if those ideas are presented in a manner that is new and unique - why shouldn't I enjoy them as well as the one with the original idea?

To look at it another way - why are series' so popular?  Because readers become familiar with a place, people and worlds and want to revisit, like an old friend.  

I read an author's note to her readers once that really said it well.  She gets complaints from people that read each new book in the series because new characters are introduced and new situations visited, and they don't like them as much as the original or the last book.  Yet, after the next book comes out, that last one that everyone was complaining about is now their favorite.  She called it the 'familiarity quotient'.  Each new book was challenged because of new characters or places, but once they became familiar with those new characters and places, they became friends.

So there is a sort of yearning for the familiar, which keeps us going back to favorite authors or series' but we also can assimilate the new as well.  So whether you write a fantasy set in the usual European-like setting with dragons and elves or something unique that takes us to a new reality that nobody has ever visited before - as long as the story is engaging and well written, it will be accepted.

That's the only advice I would have for an aspiring author - make sure the characters are well founded, the story is engaging and that the writing is well done enough to not cause the reader to stop reading and think about the actual writing.  The best thing for a reader is to not have to think about the story structure - they should be thinking of the story only.  When it is well written, the reader gets caught up in the story and won't be thinking about technical issues at all.

Was that helpful?


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## littlemissattitude (Jan 4, 2004)

Interesting question, SDNess. I came late to fantasy, after having been raised on science fiction, so I may have a little bit of a different view of fantasy than people who have been reading it for nearly their whole lives and who have read all of the classics. I guess I should also say that I came to fantasy through the two Thomas Covenant trilogies by Stephen R. Donaldson, and so fantasies that are somewhat dark do not bother me in the least.

I very much like what I have seen called "urban fantasy", that is fantasy that is very much rooted in the real, contemporary world. Tim Powers does this very well. His semi-trilogy, "Last Call", "Expiration Date", and "Earthquake Weather" (I call them a semi-trilogy because they don't really become a trilogy until the last volume ties the first two together) is just great. He also has written an interesting book, "Declare", that takes place during the Cold War. Some of his characters are actually historical personages, and he apparently did a great deal of research and then inserted the fantasy elements of the story so that they do not contradict actual recorded history. I'd love to see more of this.

I also like fantasy that uses mythological systems besides that of medieval Europe. I've read a couple of books (which I can't recall the titles or authors of right now) that base themselves on Mesoamerican mythology, for example, that worked very well. There are all kinds of mythological systems that could easily lend themselves to the fantasy genre. And have, but not to the extent that they could be used. This is not to say that I do not like traditional fantasy in the Medieval mold, but simply that I would like to see more variety than I have.

As far as the idea of good v. evil conflicts being the base of most fantasy, I think that will probably continue to be the case because when you really think about it, it is the base of most literature of all kinds. However, I tend to like stories in which the lines are not so clearly drawn, where the hero is not entirely good and the villain is not completely evil. In my view, this makes things much more interesting.

I don't think fantasy will ever get too far from the "quest" theme, either. However, I think it can be handled in unique ways and that quests need not always be for "magical items". Quests for knowledge of one sort or another are very interesting to me, for example, and can be worked into the fantasy template as easily as quests for things.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth.


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## SDNess (Jan 4, 2004)

> Was that helpful?


Quite.

Thanks, littlemissattitude, yours also helped. 

I'm getting ideas alread.y


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## littlemissattitude (Jan 5, 2004)

Glad I could help out.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Jan 5, 2004)

I must confess that I really haven't read enough fantasy to pass a definitive judgement.Still, here's my two cents. 

A big problem in creating interesting fantasy seems to be combining the epic scale of events with a narrative that is centered on realistic characters. And sometimes I feel that many authors end up making their characters a little too 'realistic' - a little too much like you and me. I'd like to see more genuinely different (I nearly said 'alien') cultures, societies and people. 

Imagine a race of bird-people. They are not just a convenient race of 'exotics' who can function as plot devices. A sentient mind that is used to thinking of the open sky as its medium and gravity as its prime enemy would think very differently than ours. The difference would go beyond vocabulary or religion - their entire frame of reference would beutterly different from ours, and so, therefore,would their perceptions. If you've read about the huge conceptual gaps that have been exposed when people form radically different human cultures meet, you can imagine how much more complex and intriguing the interaction between the bird people and a ground-dwelling race might be. Even basic spacial concepts would be different - the winged folk would have sovery many more directions to speak of than just up, down right and left. They would think in terms of arcs and tangents, trajectories rather than straight lines on a flat surface. Their whole notion of stability and precariousness would be different from our own. Perhaps they might associate the stability of being on the surface with the final stillness of death. And so on. I can imagine (vaguely) a variety of intersting stories building from a situation like this, conflicts and tensions, perhaps, as well as reconciliations and truces far more complex and fresh than taking sides for or against the dark one plotting in his lair...

I don't know if any of what I've said makes too much snese. My main point is that I'd like to see a real effort to imagine and flesh out the truly fantastic rather than impose familiar ways of thinking and acting upon it.


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## Elysium (Jan 5, 2004)

littlemissattitude said:
			
		

> I also like fantasy that uses mythological systems besides that of medieval Europe. I've read a couple of books (which I can't recall the titles or authors of right now) that base themselves on Mesoamerican mythology, for example, that worked very well. There are all kinds of mythological systems that could easily lend themselves to the fantasy genre. And have, but not to the extent that they could be used. This is not to say that I do not like traditional fantasy in the Medieval mold, but simply that I would like to see more variety than I have.


I agree. That would be fascinating.
Fantasy should also explore some unconventional gender roles. Who needs a pure maiden warior and strong knight? There has recently been some great work that characterizes people in unusual and unexpected ways. I'd like to see some more. Character driven narrative is very interesting.


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## SDNess (Jan 6, 2004)

> Imagine a race of bird-people. They are not just a convenient race of 'exotics' who can function as plot devices...


I'm writing a story now where I have used a race of bird-people...containing a lot of the elements that you stated. They are called the 'Osiris'.


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## Brian G Turner (Jan 6, 2004)

I like the comments, *kinvesout* - you make an important point. I think you are emphasising "realism" (ie, that the story elements should have a real grounding in reality) - which is one of my favourite literary topics. 

However, the market says that for a lot of the readership, the elements of the bird culture are only meaningful if the culture itself would be meaningful to the plot. In other words, a lot of the time it won't matter to readers if the bird people communicate as like humans. However, if you can add such elements, without distracting from the plot, then you may create something quite memorable. 

As an addendum to that - even different human cultures have very different ways of perceiving the simplest things. For example, here in the West we are very used to the idea that time "flows" forwards (and backwards in SF!). However, in Chinese thought, time moves up and down. A simple but important example of how thought can diverge across cultures on even the commonest principles of the human experience.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Jan 6, 2004)

I said:
			
		

> As an addendum to that - even different human cultures have very different ways of perceiving the simplest things. For example, here in the West we are very used to the idea that time "flows" forwards (and backwards in SF!). However, in Chinese thought, time moves up and down. A simple but important example of how thought can diverge across cultures on even the commonest principles of the human experience.


My point actually derived from that. If I remember right, when the Conquistadors passed through certain islands the natives, unused to such large sea craft simply could not see their ships - instead, they saw the foreigners mysteriously appear from nowhere in a boat and vanish from the boats in the same way. It would be more realistic to see some of this sort of cultural gap in a fantasy story, rather than these huge continents with their 'common tongue' and so forth. 

In my culture time is essentially seen as cyclical, btw.


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## dwndrgn (Jan 7, 2004)

I said:
			
		

> However, in Chinese thought, time moves up and down. A simple but important example of how thought can diverge across cultures on even the commonest principles of the human experience.


How does time move up and down?  I mean, is up the future and down the past?  If you are researching history, you are essentially digging through the basement?  This might sound like a silly question but I've never heard this and being from the west and used to the forwards/backwards flow of time, I'm finding it hard for my mind to curl around the idea.  It is so annoying when my mind freezes up and produces nothing useful (unfortunately this is a normal state...).  Is this related to the fact that their script is written vertically as opposed to our horizontally?


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## Amidala (Jan 7, 2004)

A simple one not just in SF but anyway I fond in sci fi that alot of charecters can sometimes be without emotion...storys are no good unless readers love their charecters


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## Brian G Turner (Jan 7, 2004)

dwndrgn said:
			
		

> How does time move up and down? I mean, is up the future and down the past? If you are researching history, you are essentially digging through the basement? This might sound like a silly question but I've never heard this and being from the west and used to the forwards/backwards flow of time, I'm finding it hard for my mind to curl around the idea. It is so annoying when my mind freezes up and produces nothing useful (unfortunately this is a normal state...). Is this related to the fact that their script is written vertically as opposed to our horizontally?


I have no idea why - it is merely something that I've read about. Apparently, they find our forwards and backwards fairly non-sensical as well. 

The script orientation - ah, now that is a very astute observation. Is it related? Not sure, but it's a good suggestion.


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## Foxbat (Jan 7, 2004)

> A simple one not just in SF but anyway I fond in sci fi that alot of charecters can sometimes be without emotion...storys are no good unless readers love their charecters


I would say care in some way what happens to the character (could be love or hate - it's not important). Leaving them with a sense of indifference is the worst possible crime  writers can inflict on their readership. SciFi is not any different - behind the facade of technology, the story should, ultimately, be about the characters and the emotions they create within ourselves whilst we read.


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## Allyn (Jan 8, 2004)

I'll agree with that.  When I write I try to give each character their own personality, their own traits, and (in some cases) their own complete history.  Some characters are exact opposites to who I am, and others are closer to me.

Emotions are needed in that sense.  We don't want to have many characters be emotionless.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Jan 8, 2004)

Stories have to be about people, one way or another, or they are about nothing at all. I used to think SF was about ideas, and that is an element, but ultimately it is the human factor that matters. Even if the human in question is a positronic robot.


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## littlemissattitude (Jan 8, 2004)

knivesout said:
			
		

> Stories have to be about people, one way or another, or they are about nothing at all. I used to think SF was about ideas, and that is an element, but ultimately it is the human factor that matters. Even if the human in question is a positronic robot.


I think SF/fantasy _is_ about ideas, but there are no ideas without people (not necessarily human, considering the genre we're talking about, so maybe better to say conscious, thinking entities).  So, yes, the "human" factor really is the key to really good storytelling (no matter the genre, really).


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## Brian G Turner (Jan 8, 2004)

Of course, "2001" could be one of those "middle-ground books - the characterisation in it is very weak, but it's primarily about an idea: that of the development - and future development  - of humanity. In that way, it manages to cover both key elements - - - perhaps.


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## SDNess (Jan 8, 2004)

I think all stories deal with character primarily. The secondary elements, like technology in SF, are used to develop the character more.

Then again, there are different types of science fiction so not at all stories aply to this. For example, Card's work is very different than Asimov's. Card is more concerned with characters while Asimov is more interested in dealing with technology.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Jan 9, 2004)

While the first wave of SF could get away with more emphasis on 'ideas' the genre has had to evolve a more human aspect to survive and mature. Still, SF is genre where an entire story can revolve around the sort of 'what if' that you ask yourself when reading some interesting scientific fact, although to really be effective, the extrapolation really should play out in human terms. Human/sentient, you know what I mean...anyway, I'm going a bit off the topic, I think.


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## BAYLOR (Jan 27, 2017)

Id like to see some well written fun to read  throwback fantasy with a barbaric Conan like hero .


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## Toby Frost (Jan 27, 2017)

Good question! I think overall fantasy is moving in the right direction, in that it’s become wider in its range of settings, concepts and characters – in doing so, it’s become more genuinely fantastical. Of course, none of that matters if the books aren’t any good and aren't allowed a chance to sell, but it’s a sign that the genre is improving.

What I would like to see – which is probably different to what fantasy needs – is, off the top of my head:

-          Older characters: more precisely, more characters who don’t think and act like teenagers.

-          More plots that don’t depend on a quest. A fantasy detective story that wasn’t an obvious private eye pastiche would be interesting.

-          More stories that aren’t responses to or parodies of the clichés of the genre. Yes, the “farmboy makes good” story is old, but I think it is also becoming old to point that out. Better, I think, to have a clean break from old stories than yet another ironic reworking of them.

-          More fun. For all its many, many flaws, the first Dragonlance book is fun. I don’t know what the authors thought it was, but it’s enjoyable nonsense and that’s fine. A lack of heavy-handedness or sense of righteousness when “issues” appear would be nice too.

-          Self-contained books, as opposed to sprawling sequences (says the man who is writing a trilogy).

-          Less obsession with historical "accuracy" and more concentration on making the book's own setting convincing in itself. The "You couldn't do that in the Middle Ages, so you shouldn't do it here" argument doesn't work for me unless your book is very deliberately a parallel of reality, and not just the usual medieval-England-with-magic setting.


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## Null_Zone (Jan 27, 2017)

I'd like to see books written as historical fiction with some fantasy elements, by and large fantasy comes across as very modern mindsets with fantasy elements - The general unpleasantness of life in different time periods never comes across that well, the casual violence, existing in a barely above susbisdance economy, all that's missing and I quite often add under my breath "why not complain about the lack of Amazon Prime" when characters encounter difficulites. I'm not enitirely convinced a woman in a 8th Century rip off would even notice the sexism portrayed in many novels as a sign of how difficult her life is much less stress about it.

A move away from the dozen different view points in each book, many of which don't anything beyond padding. The lamp boy might save the day in book 8 because of an overheard conversation in book 1, but between then do we need dozen chapters on his dull exploits. I wouldd't mind seeing an author trying an epic where each book is purely from a different characters PoV.

No more plucky wise cracking thieves, I reckon that particular character has been done to death.


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## BAYLOR (Jan 28, 2017)

Book cover  art like they had back in the 1960's and 70's .


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## Jo Zebedee (Jan 28, 2017)

Blasters. Blasters are good.


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## hopewrites (Jan 29, 2017)

I've always turned to Fantasy to learn how to deal with things outside my understanding that those around me couldn't adequately explain or help me with.

I'd like to see a return of spiritualism to Fantasy. How and Why do "higher powers" (wizards, dragons, gods, demons, aliens, sentient dinosaurs who live in the center of the earth and control the governments through shadowy means and telepathy...) get involved? are the lines of "good and evil" arbitrary?


Sure, I've done the odd quest in my life. I'm not opposed to reading about others. Everything can be a quest. Hell, Laundry Day is Quest Day for some people. (Dishes are my never ending Quest, gotta scour the whole apartment for lost and dirty ones, then get 'em all washed and put away. And sure as Suns Rise, there's some sneaky ******* -usually a mug who hides in plain sight- that avoided washing. *shakes fist in general direction of the kitchen*)


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## RX-79G (Jan 29, 2017)

This may be the problem of "what is fantasy?", or "what can I get away with and still attract Fantasy genre readers?" On the fringe of fantasy we already have things like Slipstream and the New Weird, which fit the definition of fantasy because they involve impossible elements as a main theme. But I think the OP is more about what can be done in a more traditional fantasy construction, and that's a good question.

To my mind, mainline fantasy is the intersection of an adventure with a romanticized place. The rise of urban fantasy I think shows that modern people feel a little disconcerted with the complexity and hidden infrastructure of cities, to the point that they are mysterious and believably nuanced places enough to have room for fantastic goings-on. Dark alleys, foreign faces, steam vents, long histories and undergrounds provide intersections with unreal places. They are our version dwarf underground cities, troll infested bridges and forbidding castles.

So the question becomes - where else can you set a story that focuses on the impossible, is set in a place where something of importance to the characters is going on and where the underlying problem for the characters isn't going to be subsumed with pesky "real life" concerns that consume our attention in SF or historical fiction? Because if you are trying to supply the reader with a fantastic tale, 90% of the exposition can't be anthropology or technology. Cities, medieval Europe, Victorian times, etc provide us with "well understood" backdrops that require little explanation, so the author can get down to the business of something fantastic happening.

And then there's also the problem of the story not being fantastic enough, where the "magic" might be mistaken for skill (martial arts) or unexplained science. Fantasy is something of a contract with the reader to provide the impossible, otherwise they would be reading SF or something else more real world.

I don't have any specific suggestions, except that whatever world you choose for your fantasy must either be simple (living in nature) or familiar (medieval), and that the fantastic elements matter as much or more than the real world concerns. This may actually be a fairly considerable  restriction, despite the boundlessness that fantasy should provide.


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## BAYLOR (Feb 7, 2017)

More great books ?


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## Phyrebrat (Feb 7, 2017)

I'm not sure on subgenres and what have you, but the only fantasy that I have really enjoyed reading is _Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell_. I say this admiting that as a huge Stepehn King fan (and having read them twice) I was not blown away by the _Dark Tower_ books as much as I was by Jonathan Strange (or _It_ and _Duma Key_ for that matter!).

I loved the_ Ladies of Grace Adieu_ anthology, but I really love to read another huge brick like Jonathan Strange, written in that gorgeous E M Forster-esque stye that Susannah Clarke has.

pH


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## BAYLOR (Feb 22, 2017)

To inspire more Movies and tv series?


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## BAYLOR (Mar 12, 2017)

I do think that modern fantasy has become , just a bit to serious.


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## Danny McG (Mar 14, 2017)

BAYLOR said:


> Id like to see some well written fun to read  throwback fantasy with a barbaric Conan like hero .



Awesome pick up on an old thread @BAYLOR!
Thirteen year jump between messages - I love that happening in Chrons


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## BAYLOR (Mar 14, 2017)

dannymcg said:


> Awesome pick up on an old thread @BAYLOR!
> Thirteen year jump between messages - I love that happening in Chrons



Two thing I love to do,  recommend books and bring back interesting Thread topics .


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## Cathbad (Mar 14, 2017)

BAYLOR said:


> I do think that modern fantasy has become , just a bit to serious.



I think it's always been serious.

LOTR was pretty durn serious.


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## vonHelldorf (Mar 14, 2017)

I'm a sucker for a good plot with lots of twists. I'd forgive weaker characters for a solid plot. But I suppose it depends on the type of story. In an epic, good characters are an essential ingredient—ones to love and ones to hate!


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## BAYLOR (Mar 14, 2017)

vonHelldorf said:


> I'm a sucker for a good plot with lots of twists. I'd forgive weaker characters for a solid plot. But I suppose it depends on the type of story. In an epic, good characters are an essential ingredient—ones to love and ones to hate!



Try Steven Erikson's Malazan Saga .  Thats series has everything.


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## BAYLOR (Nov 17, 2019)

More Conan the Barbarian pastiches .


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## ryubysss (Nov 17, 2019)

RX-79G said:


> And then there's also the problem of the story not being fantastic enough, where the "magic" might be mistaken for skill (martial arts) or unexplained science. Fantasy is something of a contract with the reader to provide the impossible, otherwise they would be reading SF or something else more real world.



I won't go into my sort of involved theory see and now, but I think that genre sf and genre fantasy has undergone the literary equivalent of a corporate merger. readers start a genre fantasy book with many of the same assumptions as a historical fiction or space opera reader. for example, imaginary countries will have histories. they will have "plausible" histories. they will have a defined geography and you look at maps that show them. magic has rules, etc. whereas if you pick up Beagle's _The Last Unicorn, say_, none of these things exist. the author would only invent just as much of a setting as the story would need to have to hang together. earlier readers and writers didn't care about setting or the logic of a setting to such an overwhelming extent. 

I like to think of fat traditional genre fantasies of these type as what I think of as "map opera", as an analogy to "space opera". space opera has certain conventions and assumptions. map opera has certain conventions and assumptions and they have many in common. readers want and like a certain amount of comforting familiarity and predictability. they want the settings to hang together, in some way, better than the real world does.


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## BAYLOR (Nov 18, 2019)

ryubysss said:


> I won't go into my sort of involved theory see and now, but I think that genre sf and genre fantasy has undergone the literary equivalent of a corporate merger. readers start a genre fantasy book with many of the same assumptions as a historical fiction or space opera reader. for example, imaginary countries will have histories. they will have "plausible" histories. they will have a defined geography and you look at maps that show them. magic has rules, etc. whereas if you pick up Beagle's _The Last Unicorn, say_, none of these things exist. the author would only invent just as much of a setting as the story would need to have to hang together. earlier readers and writers didn't care about setting or the logic of a setting to such an overwhelming extent.
> 
> I like to think of fat traditional genre fantasies of these type as what I think of as "map opera", as an analogy to "space opera". space opera has certain conventions and assumptions. map opera has certain conventions and assumptions and they have many in common. readers want and like a certain amount of comforting familiarity and predictability. they want the settings to hang together, in some way, better than the real world does.



William  Morris's * The Well at The End of the World  *takes  place in a standard medieval setting .

In T*he The Wizard of OZ    *L Frank Baum was just winging it with regard to setting of OZ


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## olive (Nov 18, 2019)

I don't know what it needs it or not, but I want fantasy to tell the stories of small people in ordinary lives. I don't want big worlds, epic cities and events. I don't want saviours. I don't want to read the stories of heroes, chosen ones, big, superhero like characters. I don't want the characters to look good or be smart or have some very rare and important skill, an exceptional birth, background... I don't want to see black and white characters, but gray ones. 

I want to see human condition, vulnerability, conflict, real characters and character development, clumsiness, awkwardness...


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## BAYLOR (Nov 18, 2019)

As much  as I like epic world building and story arcs. 

However .  I still he like old fashioned heroic fantasy  with the larger then life characters , Conans the Kane , Fafhard . Jirel , Red Sonja and the Grey Mouser ect.


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## ryubysss (Nov 18, 2019)

BAYLOR said:


> William  Morris's * The Well at The End of the World  *takes  place in a standard medieval setting .



sure. and many other writers' work took place in similar settings. the writers, though, didn't set out to engage in the sort of building of a consistent miniature world. if they wanted to have a thing, they had a thing. they'd put in that thing. they cared about the emotional texture and the feeling of antiquity. a sketched-in background, at best. because they didn't feel they _needed _to have anything more.

in my opinion, Tolkien and _Dune_ collectively changed all of that. also, and I don't mean this as a joke, but seriously, the _Star Trek_ and _Star Wars_ technical manuals and Tolkein guidebooks that appeared in the late '70s. for the first time, you had all these fictional worlds documented and put down into paper, separate from the works themselves. and, of course, Tolkien's imitators, with Terry Brooks the first, major one.

I could go into far more detail about this. 



> In T*he The Wizard of OZ    *L Frank Baum was just winging it with regard to setting of OZ



as nearly every author prior to Tolkien, when telling stories in imaginary worlds, to a greater or lesser degree. (the sf writer Cordwainer Smith stands out as an exception. offhand I can't think of any others.) they either defaulted to their imaginations or to that and the historical world.


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## BAYLOR (Nov 18, 2019)

ryubysss said:


> sure. and many other writers' work took place in similar settings. the writers, though, didn't set out to engage in the sort of building of a consistent miniature world. if they wanted to have a thing, they had a thing. they'd put in that thing. they cared about the emotional texture and the feeling of antiquity. a sketched-in background, at best. because they didn't feel they _needed _to have anything more.
> 
> in my opinion, Tolkien and _Dune_ collectively changed all of that. also, and I don't mean this as a joke, but seriously, the _Star Trek_ and _Star Wars_ technical manuals and Tolkein guidebooks that appeared in the late '70s. for the first time, you had all these fictional worlds documented and put down into paper, separate from the works themselves. and, of course, Tolkien's imitators, with Terry Brooks the first, major one.
> 
> ...



The setting  for  several of James of Brach Cabell's  fantasy novels  is  the imaginary medieval french province of Poictesme .   Robert E Howard wrote a synopsis of the Hyborian Age of 15,000 years ago which was the setting for Conan the Barbarian , He borrowed from history or made up names l of the kingdoms and kingdoms and peoples in the world he created .  Howard  died in 1936 one year before Tolkien published the* Hobbit*. I often wonder what he would have made of the book and *Lord of the Rngs *and the world world building tfantys that came long after his time. Clark Aston Smith set in stories in pre and post modern kingdom . Hyperboria ,  Poseidonus, and  Ziccarph  in the distant future.

Tolkien didn't invent world building in fantasy , but he certainly  improved on  it quite a bit.  and Yes Herbert did the same for science fiction. I agree with that.


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## ryubysss (Nov 18, 2019)

Howard devoted only a couple of pages to outlining the history of the Hyborian Age, after he had already written a couple of short works set there. he didn't fill journals. he didn't obsess about it, as far as I know. 

Cabell probably comes closest to delineating a fictional world, in terms of genealogy, as far as I know, but as far as I know he didn't work out who had ruled Poictesme and when (unless it mattered to the story), for example.

when you referenced Smith, you said, Ziccarph when I think you meant Zothique. he did also make up a fictional planet called Xiccarph, though.


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## BAYLOR (Nov 18, 2019)

ryubysss said:


> Howard devoted only a couple of pages to outlining the history of the Hyborian Age, after he had already written a couple of short works set there. he didn't fill journals. he didn't obsess about it, as far as I know.
> 
> Cabell probably comes closest to delineating a fictional world, in terms of genealogy, as far as I know, but as far as I know he didn't work out who had ruled Poictesme and when (unless it mattered to the story), for example.
> 
> when you referenced Smith, you said, Ziccarph when I think you meant Zothique. he did also make up a fictional planet called Xiccarph, though.




In case of  Smith I do get crossed up with the names he used   . I had the book *Zothique* at one point . Currently  I have Nightshades 5 volumes set with all his stories. Im  currently re reading his stories.  In terms writing style the closest  ive ever seen to him is  William Beckford's novel *Vathek.  *Smith had something to do with translating and explain a changer that was not included in *Vathek* when it came out  and expanding on it.  have the story  in my collection. In short fiction , he's simply  one  of the best ever. He  influenced a number of writers . Jack Vance's  Dying Earth sequence of novels,  the novel *Magus  Rex *by Jack Lovejoy does a nod or two to Smith . Michael Shea's , Nift the Lean stories.  My favorite  stories  by Smith  are  *The City of the Singing Flame. *and it's sequel *Beyond the Singing Flame,  *I think he planned a 3rd tale in that i sequence but never got around too writing it .


Further off topic for one second . Have you ever read Seabury Quinn's Juels De Grandin stories ?


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## elvet (Nov 18, 2019)

My favourite part about fantasy is ‘normal people in an abnormal world’. I know that is very vague, and can apply to SF as well, but the best stories are regular Joe-blows who find themselves in exceptional circumstances. I particularly like stories about modern day people transported to a fantasy universe, like Fionavar Tapestry. There doesn’t seem to be many grand books like that written anymore. (Urban fantasy does’t count, as I am not a big fan, sorry!)


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## BAYLOR (Nov 18, 2019)

elvet said:


> My favourite part about fantasy is ‘normal people in an abnormal world’. I know that is very vague, and can apply to SF as well, but the best stories are regular Joe-blows who find themselves in exceptional circumstances. I particularly like stories about modern day people transported to a fantasy universe, like Fionavar Tapestry. There doesn’t seem to be many grand books like that written anymore. (Urban fantasy does’t count, as I am not a big fan, sorry!)




Might I suggest  Jack Chalker's Dancing Gods series . His standalone novel  *And the Devil  Will Drag You Under . * Barbara Hamblys . Darwaith books an Silicon Mage series ?


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## ryubysss (Nov 18, 2019)

BAYLOR said:


> Further off topic for one second . Have you ever read Seabury Quinn's Juels De Grandin stories ?


I've heard of them but haven't read them. not a fan of more traditional pulp stuff. I've tried reading work in that vein (Conan, etc.) and couldn't get into it.


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## BAYLOR (Nov 18, 2019)

ryubysss said:


> I've heard of them but haven't read them. not a fan of more traditional pulp stuff. I tried that (Conan, etc.) and couldn't get into them.



Ive read lot of pulp , some it is quite good , some of it is not so  good at all. In many cases,   it is what it is.  

The  Jues De Grandin stories are quite good and more then a bit above traditional pulp.  Quinn wrote  about 93 tales staring De Grandin and his associate   Dr Trowbridge  , which included one full one length novel .  The stories  were written between 1925 and 1951 ,  Quinn died in 1969 , Pretty much  forgotten .  De Granin is supernatural detective, he and  Trowbridge battle not only supernatural darkness . Its a bit like Xflies. and Kolchak the Night Stalker.


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## olive (Nov 20, 2019)

elvet said:


> My favourite part about fantasy is ‘normal people in an abnormal world’. I know that is very vague, and can apply to SF as well, but the best stories are regular Joe-blows who find themselves in exceptional circumstances.



This.


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## The Big Peat (Nov 20, 2019)

I want authors to tell me what fantasy needs. I want to be persuaded, blown away by their visions. For them to persuade me that I like things that I'd have never considered.

It's not that I don't have cravings and favourites. I do. But they're contradictory. I want stories about normal people in abnormal worlds... but I also want stories that cleave hard to fantasy's mythic roots and where everybody is abnormal. The genre's deep enough and my tastes broad enough that I want pretty much everything. I just don't know what it is until I get it. Books that seems like they were written to pander to my deepest desires fall short. Books that I only picked up because they were just cheap became my favourites.


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## CTRandall (Nov 21, 2019)

The Big Peat said:


> I want authors to tell me what fantasy needs. I want to be persuaded, blown away by their visions. For them to persuade me that I like things that I'd have never considered.



Like a detective noir novel written in a completely fantasy setting with a worn-down, aging paladin in the role of Sam Spade?


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## Teresa Edgerton (Nov 21, 2019)

The Big Peat said:


> I want to be persuaded, blown away by their visions.



This is exactly what I want.  Take me somewhere I have never been before.  Make it so convincing that I believe everything about it.  (That doesn't mean that it needs to be all laid out and logical; there are things that the heart and imagination recognize as true regardless of what logic tells them.) Immerse me in the world and the characters.


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## Toby Frost (Nov 21, 2019)

I agree, and to a fair extent I wouldn't care much what was in the book if it was executed well enough. I am as guilty of this as the next writer, and I realise that it's a convenient way to market a book, but I am tired of being sold books as essentially a tick-list of cool things included in the story. Whenever I see this, I always end up thinking "Yes, but is it any good?"

I wonder if this is a side-effect of growing up without any real fan community, but for many years my attitude to my favourite writers was just "let's see what crazy stuff they do next". The reason I liked the writers that I did was that I liked their style, rather than their settings as such. If John Wyndham had written a book about the Norse gods, I would have read that too, because I would have expected him to tackle the subject in a way that I liked.


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## ryubysss (Nov 21, 2019)

if a book contains intriguing elements then I tend to take that as an indicator that the author has good instincts. out of all the possible elements that they could employ, they'd employed these ones. not saying that it always acts as reliable guide (like the book that I picked up from the library because of the premise where the writing, while not poor, didn't wow me), but sometimes does.


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## BAYLOR (Nov 24, 2019)

olive said:


> I don't know what it needs it or not, but I want fantasy to tell the stories of small people in ordinary lives. I don't want big worlds, epic cities and events. I don't want saviours. I don't want to read the stories of heroes, chosen ones, big, superhero like characters. I don't want the characters to look good or be smart or have some very rare and important skill, an exceptional birth, background... I don't want to see black and white characters, but gray ones.
> 
> I want to see human condition, vulnerability, conflict, real characters and character development, clumsiness, awkwardness...





elvet said:


> My favourite part about fantasy is ‘normal people in an abnormal world’. I know that is very vague, and can apply to SF as well, but the best stories are regular Joe-blows who find themselves in exceptional circumstances. I particularly like stories about modern day people transported to a fantasy universe, like Fionavar Tapestry. There doesn’t seem to be many grand books like that written anymore. (Urban fantasy does’t count, as I am not a big fan, sorry!)




 y\You both might find of interesest *Faerie Tale * by Raymond Feist . 

and while not strictly a fantasy  *The Heads of Cerberus* by Francis Stevens


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## Guttersnipe (Jan 8, 2020)

I'm actually bored with medieval fantasies, particularly of the European variety. I'd like to see more urban fantasy and unique worldbuilding. Also, it would be great if the writers added other genres to the mix, like mystery or thriller, for example.
A few other things:
*Middle Eastern settings
*dark comedy
*a sci-fi influence and setting, like dieselpunk
* a stronger focus on philosophy
*chaotic neutral main characters
*prehistoric settings, with dinosaurs and/or prehistoric mammals
*no magic


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## Lew Rockwell Fan (Jan 8, 2020)

99% of fantasy, I don't care for, but there's the 1%.  Which at least makes for a different viewpoint.  I suggest reading de Camp and notice how he handles humor, Turtledove and how he handles dialog,  and Meyers and how he handles allegory.  That last is a deep hole.  Niven for what some call "logical fanasy", but you may consider that outside  the genre.  Caveat: I thought Tokein was a bore, so what do I know about what's marketable?


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