# Do insects feel emotions?



## Brian G Turner (Sep 30, 2016)

An article today in New Scientist suggests that bees may experience moods and emotions:
Don’t worry, bee happy: Bees found to have emotions and moods

Last year there was an article published suggesting that fruit flies may experience fear:
Flies have actual emotions, and might help us find out why we do

There's also an interesting piece here about fruit flies displaying a potential range of emotional states:
Are insects capable of feeling emotion and affection like most animals (even wild) and humans? - Quora

Another indicator that, perhaps, humans are not so unique in nature as some people would like to believe?


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## hopewrites (Sep 30, 2016)

Emotions are a more base level of communication than language skills imo. Many things feel and express emotions, I am glad that the scientific community is putting out papers that recognize that (just as vocalized language is not the only way to speak) there are more ways to feel and express emotions than just the ones humans have become accustomed to using most often.


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## Stephen Palmer (Sep 30, 2016)

There is as yet no generally accepted scientific description of why human beings feel emotions - a pretty amazing state of affairs imo, although some of the books I've read recently have given very interesting hypotheses. However (again imo), human emotions are qualitatively different to anything we might - anthropomorphically...? - apply to an animal. Just because a dog smiles doesn't necessarily mean it's happy. But when a human properly does, you _know_ they're happy. That means something.


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## hopewrites (Sep 30, 2016)

I agree that expression of emotions differ between beings. Plants don't change their facial expressions, or make audible exclamations, but they respond to emotive energies, often more acutely than the beings doing the emoting.

So I agree that a smile doesn't mean the same thing on every face (hell it doesn't even mean the same thing on the same face) but that falls into how emotion is expressed, not whether emotion is felt.


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## J Riff (Sep 30, 2016)

Over 4 inches long and they get angry about the heavy gravity on this planet. They blame us. )


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## Stuart Suffel (Sep 30, 2016)

Gonna wait until I head some 'knock, knock jokes' from our insect underlords, before I subscribe to this theory.

(though funnily enough< i am writing a short story on a sentient insect who comes to earth for a bit of revenge...so...)


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## Dave (Oct 1, 2016)

StuartSuffers said:


> (though funnily enough< i am writing a short story on a sentient insect who comes to earth for a bit of revenge...so...)


I remember an X-Files episode on that subject. Sorry, I'm not enough of an X-phile to remember which one.


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## Stuart Suffel (Oct 1, 2016)

I'd imagine it's been done before a few times. Even MIB had a sentient insect as their baddy.

But mine's female, so... em, well, still not original. Except, er, that I tell it so well, you see.


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## Stephen Palmer (Oct 1, 2016)

hopewrites said:


> So I agree that a smile doesn't mean the same thing on every face (hell it doesn't even mean the same thing on the same face) but that falls into how emotion is expressed, not whether emotion is felt.



Well, not really. Each emotion has a very specific set of physical components, which is part of the reason they evolved. The point I was making is the cognitive component, which is in the case of human beings specific to the evolution of consciousness.

I'm curious to know the thinking behind "plants respond to emotive energies".


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## Overread (Oct 1, 2016)

I think this subject area is one where the influence of Victorian science has had a dramatic and negative impact. Whilst they were very thorough they also had a strong religious angle at the same time. Thus I think many concepts of animals displaying emotions were underplayed and we resulted in a concept of humans somehow being emotionally and mentally superior to such an extent that we were almost the only concious species on the Earth with the rest running on instinct and little else. Even if the scientific community has moved on this thought process has lingered in the common people and some areas hence why this concept of understanding things like animal emotions is almost in its infancy - even though any good animal keeper/worker can clearly show how animals have emotional mood swings and displays.

Whilst a dog panting and smiling might not mean the same as it does for a person smiling that doesn't mean they can't have similar emotions or at least a rough concept thereof but more that they simply display their emotions through a different set of physical behaviours.


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## Stuart Suffel (Oct 1, 2016)

I think we might need to define 'emotions'.

There's a blanket terms used generally, but I think if we're comparing humans to animals, it's worth pointing out the differences.

(Ultimately this is all tied up in more complex ideas of what is human, but anyway)

Emotions as reflex and emotions as communication are shared pretty much across all living things, imo. I'm happy, unhappy, afraid, angry etc. I've no problem with that - it seems logical, from a evolutionary POV (we didn't evolve from from nothing)

But as in a cognitive sense, emotions of regret for instance.

How many animals you reckon regret their actions?

sure a dog might look remorseful* when they know they've done wrong. But how many experience regret? (looking remorseful is not regret, though they look similar in a doe-eye dog)

I'm guessing none. Elephants feel sadness at a loss, and are said to grieve. All reasonable. But do they regret past actions? The choices they didn't make?

Do they feel a loss of 'what might have been'?

Do sheep dream of electric blankets, (that they should have purchased)?

[ETA. To further add, the cognitive element of emotion is the imagining element, the 'what if' element. It happens in the 'minds eye' and is usually about the past or future. I'm not talking of the 'regret' when you sub your toe.]

* in this context, I'm not talking of deep remorse, a reflection upon actions, I'm referring to that sorrowful or sorry look of a dog, which is really a form of subservience for a reason)


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## Overread (Oct 1, 2016)

The problem about things like regret is that even with other people they have to tell you that they regret something to actually be aware that they regret something. So in a sense its tangled up with memory and communication as well as considering the perception of a situation (even if a dog could regret it might not regret what we would given the same situation). 

In truth its a fascinating area but one where we are still just getting to grips with it.


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## Stephen Palmer (Oct 2, 2016)

That's true enough.

I'd also point out that regret isn't an emotion, since there's no physical component that goes with it. All human emotions have a physical component, most (possibly all) of which interfere with "rational thought". Why that might be is perhaps the most fascinating area for debate.

Overread is correct, though - this is an area we're only just getting to grips with. But you'd expect that after more than a century of male psychologists telling us things.


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## hopewrites (Oct 2, 2016)

It's too early** to trawl the results of my internet search, so I'll give anecdotal evidence. But you're welcome to conduct your own search on the topic, and perhaps when I'm less hungover from last night's celebration*** I'll feel up to trawling (I wouldn't troll on something this important to me.)

Plants pick up on the emotive energy patterns of those around them. My boyfriend is going in for his Master Growers Certification, and he did some early projects on the subject. 
Set up two grows identical in environment, gave identical sets of nutrients, identical light and dark patterns, identical temperature, humidity, feeding/watering times etc...
One crop was given love. No one not in a positive mood was allowed into their space, the were admired and given positive emotive energies during feeding and trimming.
The other crop was given anger. The only people in their enclosure were upset about something. They were yelled at, and belittled while being fed and trimmed.
The first crop had triple the yeald and double the quality of the second.

He has since expanded the positive energy experiments to include love making (not mear sexual encounters, as the actual act doesn't have much impact ether way, but the deeply connected emotive back and forth between a couple deeply committed to each other's happiness and well-being does a greenhouse good.)

Similar to the studies done showing that holding and cuddling premature babies increases their growth rate. 

I connect more with trees than crops, (though I've seen for myself the difference between my boyfriends crops and the crops of his students who have picked up all the light-timeing and nutrient tracking, but haven't got their life together enough to control their emotive energies, or don't believe it makes a difference and don't bother to try.) so my "plants have emotions" encounters are less scientifically provable. 
But there have been times in my life where I have been bombarded with the negative emotions of others, and in those times I find solace in connecting with trees. I'll walk till I find a tree that feels friendly or sympathetic, and if it's big I'll sit with my back to its trunk and reconnect with the vastness of time and space, loose all the energies that have stuck to me, then recapture my own essence and deal with whatever emotions are truly my own. Or if it's a little tree, I'll just reach my hand out and touch my palm and fingers to it, connecting with its upward reaching energies to uplift myself enough to deal with everything I've got going on -mine or not.

My own examples could be dismissed as placebo, using device to cycle myself into a particular mood or feeling. They are unprovable. I know. But they gave me a foundation to understand my boyfriends work from, and the beginnings of knowledge in how best to help him. I know to respect the emotional energy of his greenhouses, and am happy to go and admire his plants and give them positive energy, even if I'm not much help with taking care of them in the more physical aspects like feeding watering or trimming.

It didn't take much talking to get him to agree to have a similar emotive energy standard for our home. Negative feelings are delt with sooner rather than later, and positivity encouraged to flourish. Chaotic energy visitors are welcomed to the outdoor living spaces, but politely deflected from coming inside. 
It's made coming home from work easier on both of us to know that we'll be (for the most part) coming home to a sanctuary. As well as deepening our relationship.

**5am
***my native status has been confirmed and the bureaucratic machine is one step closer to finishing the paperwork. I should have my card by January.


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## Dave (Oct 2, 2016)

Well, all I can say is that it will be very difficult to replicate his experiments, so any peer review is going to be hard, but on the basis that he is correct, that is absolutely astounding. I would personally think that there must be some other reason other than "negative" and "positive" "energies" because I know of no mechanism in plants to detect these. Maybe, we just haven't discovered it yet. Unfortunately, I can't think of another reason off the top of my head. If it was to do with the amount of CO2 (which is the usual explanation for talking to plants) then I would expect that an angry person shouting, swearing and blowing hot and cold, would produce far more CO2 than one just passively giving love. So, that can't be an explanation.


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## hopewrites (Oct 2, 2016)

Nope, CO2 meters in the rooms as a control. Kept at the same levels.

It is pretty amazing! I should think it would be replicable for peer review, it would need to be done by people who are aware of their own emotive energies, I don't think they'd need to be empathicly aware (we both are) but aware enough to know when to go into the grow rooms and when to stay out should suffice.


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## BAYLOR (Oct 3, 2016)

When red ants meet black ants on the field , there will be war !


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## ErikB (Oct 4, 2016)

Of course they do. If you put some ants in a jar and shake them up they will wander around with their heads held high and jaws open wide. There's anger!

Some might argue that it's simple threat recognition and response but entomologists have documented some very odd behaviours in ants.

In fact we can look to the imported fire ant for a prime example of this in the US as well as in their native habitat back in Argentina where they originated.

Fire ants have become a major crisis in the southern United States where they were introduced accidentally through fruit shipments from Argentina.

Combating this alien invasive species has proven difficult. But one scientist in Sarasota Florida has introduced the natural predator of fire ants to the Gulf Coast of Florida in an effort to stem the tide and it is working!

The reason that this predator was given the okay is that it feeds exclusively on fire ants. In fact different types of this predator feed specifically only on a special species of fire ant.

Since three types of fire ants are pervasive in the US three types of Phorid flies were introduced. Bear with me and I will tell you what this has to do with insect emotions shortly.

Phorid flies are tiny flies. The female has a nasty harpoon shaped ovipositor (egg laying protuberance) that she uses to dive down and puncture the body of a fire ant.

She releases a single egg of the 200 eggs she carries per fertilization cycle. (And phorid flies reproduce continuously, as soon as a batch of eggs has been depleted.)

The fly larvae hatches and crawls through the thorax and into the head of the ant. It releases an enzym that destroys the ligaments which connect the head to the body and the head falls off.

18-22 days later depending on the species an adult fly crawls out of the empty head. Gender depends on whether the ant was a worker or larger soldier ant. Since female flies are larger they emerge from soldier ant heads while males come from smaller workers.

Phorid flies decimate fire ant nests in large part due to fear.

When the flies arrive they hover continuously over the nest opening darting down to strike fire ants again and again. They are too fast to stop or long evade. And the nest goes into a panic. Fear is widespread.

The ants cease doing what is needed to feed the colony. Studies show that well over half of the workers linger underground afraid to emerge for fear of the flies. The rest do very poor jobs of food gathering and are jumpy.

Adult ants only live a month or two and without enough food the colony dies. It is definitely fear of the phorid flies and stress of the worker ants that decreases their efficiency and has them hiding and cowering below ground.

Just a few examples of insect emotions using ants.


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## BAYLOR (Oct 4, 2016)

Fire Ants are facing pressure from another species of Ants called Asian Needle Ants?


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## BAYLOR (Oct 4, 2016)

Also Fire ants can't seem to cope with Crazy Raspberry ants  another invasive species.


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## ErikB (Oct 4, 2016)

No idea. I will have to look that up. But phorid flies are Hell on Earth for fire ants. They are the strongest of a handful of native insect predators of fire ants. 

Alan Compton is an entomologist that wrote a book about ants and describes the "Golden Gnome" (he listed the Latin name though I do not recall it as I read the book back in the 70's). Which is a tiny microscopic ant that sets up house next to fire ant colonies and digs tunnels around the diameter of a grain of sand. 

They are chemically sensitive and can locate the nursery and egg chambers of fire ant nests. These tiny ants have powerful jaws. 

They are far too small to pose a threat to adult fire ants in fact fire ants are dangerous to them (if they can catch them which is difficult as the golden gnomes are swift and tiny moving under and around the nursery attendants and guards before they can stop them).

But the target is eggs and larvae which the gnomes cut up into tiny pieces and take back through tunnels too small for fire ants to follow. 

They will decimate fire ant colonies, but because they also feed on formic ants and carpenter ants they were never introduced in the US.


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## Stuart Suffel (Oct 4, 2016)

> The problem about things like regret is that even with other people they have to tell you that they regret something to actually be aware that they regret something. So in a sense its tangled up with memory and communication as well as considering the perception of a situation (even if a dog could regret it might not regret what we would given the same situation).



In truth its a fascinating area but one where we are still just getting to grips with it.




Stephen Palmer said:


> That's true enough.
> 
> I'd also point out that *regret isn't an emotion, since there's no physical component that goes with it.* All human emotions have a physical component, most (possibly all) of which interfere with "rational thought". Why that might be is perhaps the most fascinating area for debate.
> 
> Overread is correct, though - this is an area we're only just getting to grips with. But you'd expect that after more than a century of male psychologists telling us things.



[/quote]

Not sure what you mean (in bold)

Is there a Human thought without a physical component?

Sure , some are more visceral than others, but those 'others' still exist, and do have a physical expression.

anyway...

Regret is an emotion. It's expression is relentlessly sucking on a series of fags, kicking a beach ball into the sea, pacing a room at 4am, staring into the distance while sitting on a park bench....


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## Stephen Palmer (Oct 5, 2016)

All true human emotions have an unavoidable physical component. The point of the unavoidability is that the meaning (cognitive knowledge) of the emotion cannot then be missed, as a normal human thought can be missed. That's why emotions seem to "take over" from rational thought; but in fact the opposite is true - emotions convey the more profound meanings, _ie_ their knowledge is high value. Regret, on this reading, is a state of mind, not a true emotion.


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