# What if Kaiser Wilhelm  II Had Done Things Differently ?



## BAYLOR (Sep 6, 2021)

If he taken a more active role in things than he did .  For example ,  listening to  Otto Von Bismarck and keeping the alliance with Russia ,  returning Alsace-Lorraine to the French a good will gesture , agreeing not to make Germany's  navy larger or as large  the British Royal Navy and , scaling back imperial ambitions of Germany in Africa and other places. And Instead of  agreeing to supporting Austria militarily ,   pressuring  them into   give the Balkans  more autonomy early on.  If those things had occurred, how does world history likely  unfold  and , does the Kaiser get to keep his throne in this  scenario?


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## BAYLOR (Sep 7, 2021)

Would there have been a world war?


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## CupofJoe (Sep 7, 2021)

There was a documentary about the Kaiser's relationship to most of Europe's other monarchies. If I remember correctly the British and Russian royal families dissed him at every turn. Apparently he was very stuffy and a bit uncouth for their tastes. There was even a huge party of some kind where the British and Russians and loads of other royals met up and it was held in Germany and they didn't invite any one from Germany.
Then there was the two pretty Danish Princesses. after Germany invaded Denmark in 1864, they "escaped" to London and became the talk of society and wasted no time spreading their anti-German feelings.
This is my long way around of saying that Germany knew it was land locked, in some ways limited for resources, had been utterly outpaced in empire building and had few friends in Europe [aside fro Austro-Hungary, that had its own problems]. And they felt slighted by most of the continent. I don't think Germany or the Kaiser was in the mood to be conciliatory or accommodating.
How I see it was that the war was going to happen, almost at any cost, at some point. It just needed a spark, or a badly thrown bomb.
What I do think is no-one for saw how technology would affect the war and lead to those incredible death toles.


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## BAYLOR (Sep 10, 2021)

CupofJoe said:


> There was a documentary about the Kaiser's relationship to most of Europe's other monarchies. If I remember correctly the British and Russian royal families dissed him at every turn. Apparently he was very stuffy and a bit uncouth for their tastes. There was even a huge party of some kind where the British and Russians and loads of other royals met up and it was held in Germany and they didn't invite any one from Germany.
> Then there was the two pretty Danish Princesses. after Germany invaded Denmark in 1864, they "escaped" to London and became the talk of society and wasted no time spreading their anti-German feelings.
> This is my long way around of saying that Germany knew it was land locked, in some ways limited for resources, had been utterly outpaced in empire building and had few friends in Europe [aside fro Austro-Hungary, that had its own problems]. And they felt slighted by most of the continent. I don't think Germany or the Kaiser was in the mood to be conciliatory or accommodating.
> How I see it was that the war was going to happen, almost at any cost, at some point. It just needed a spark, or a badly thrown bomb.
> What I do think is no-one for saw how technology would affect the war and lead to those incredible death toles.



And when it was all over ,  the  Hohenzollern, Hapsburgs , Romanovs and Ottoman Dynasty were all gone  , millions dead,  and the map of Europe  changed.  And of course , the stage was set for a far worse and more destructive second world war 20 years later .

The sad part is all of it could have been avoided, had the right choices been made.


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## sknox (Sep 20, 2021)

But that would have meant the old regime would have persisted even longer than it did. Good riddance to old despots.


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## .matthew. (Sep 20, 2021)

sknox said:


> But that would have meant the old regime would have persisted even longer than it did. Good riddance to old despots.


True, but there's a good chance the holocaust wouldn't have happened, and perhaps even communism wouldn't have taken over Russia if they'd had some support from Germany. Lesser evil perhaps?

That said, WW2 did usher in an age of peace for Europe. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is pretty much the longest we haven't all been fighting with each other?


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## BAYLOR (Sep 20, 2021)

.matthew. said:


> True, but there's a good chance the holocaust wouldn't have happened, and perhaps even communism wouldn't have taken over Russia if they'd had some support from Germany. Lesser evil perhaps?
> 
> That said, WW2 did usher in an age of peace for Europe. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is pretty much the longest we haven't all been fighting with each other?


A world without Hitler  and the Nazis would have been a good thing, the million who died would have gotten to live .   It would have also  been a world in Lenin,  Trotsky Stalin all died in obscurity  and that would other ramifications for the timeline . Without Joseph Stalin's  aid, Mao ends up a footnote in history  because Chang would crushed him . Communison never happens in in the rest of Asia, Africa  South America, .Latin America  and Cuba.


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## .matthew. (Sep 20, 2021)

BAYLOR said:


> A world without Hitler  and the Nazis would have been a good thing, the million who died would have gotten to live .   It would have also  been a world in Lenin,  Trotsky Stalin all die in obscurity  and that would other ramifications for the timeline . Without Joseph Stalin's  aid, Mao ends up a footnote in history  because Chang would crushed him . Communison never happens in in the rest of Asia, Africa  South America, .Latin America  and Cuba.


All good things but we can't predict what would have taken its place. Perhaps without two major world wars, we'd still be fighting constant smaller wars within Europe. Perhaps Britain would finally have vanquished our most persistent foe... Perhaps the atomic bomb would have been developed but without the fear caused by Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they would have been used in an all-out conflict where both sides would have many more.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it'd still be a better timeline than what we've got now, but I doubt it'd be peaceful and with technology advancing throughout the century, the wars would have always gotten bigger.


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## sknox (Sep 21, 2021)

Post-WWII has been peaceful for Europe. Not so much for the rest of the world. There's been much fighting and killing, but we've become canny about not actually declaring war.


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## Tirellan (Sep 22, 2021)

.matthew. said:


> True, but there's a good chance the holocaust wouldn't have happened, and perhaps even communism wouldn't have taken over Russia if they'd had some support from Germany. Lesser evil perhaps?
> 
> That said, WW2 did usher in an age of peace for Europe. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is pretty much the longest we haven't all been fighting with each other?


Are you discounting the violence following the breakup of Yugoslavia?


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## .matthew. (Sep 22, 2021)

Tirellan said:


> Are you discounting the violence following the breakup of Yugoslavia?


Indeed I was and had completely forgotten that was even a thing :/

Wasn't it more of a civil war though?


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## BAYLOR (Sep 22, 2021)

Tirellan said:


> Are you discounting the violence following the breakup of Yugoslavia?



Hello Tirellen . 

The Balkans should have stayed separated.


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## CupofJoe (Sep 23, 2021)

.matthew. said:


> Indeed I was and had completely forgotten that was even a thing :/
> 
> Wasn't it more of a civil war though?


I don't think "civil" ever applies. A long time ago, back in the early 90s, I had a "friend" that made a great deal of money playing one group off against another in that part of the world. I call them "friend" because I never wanted to get on their bad side.
As for Yugoslavia, at the time [before, during, and just after WWI] there was a mood for union in territories that became the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. A single [theoretically] strong nation between Austro-Hungary and the Ottomans rather than half a dozen smaller countries. Actually from what I've been reading much of the impetus may have come from people who had left for America [and other places] and want a Homeland. More romantic than political or economic.


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## Tirellan (Sep 23, 2021)

Not a civil war with NATO bombing Belgrade and the RAF hitting Serb forces.
Example   BBC News | UK | RAF videos show Serbia bombings


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## CupofJoe (Sep 24, 2021)

Tirellan said:


> Not a civil war with NATO bombing Belgrade and the RAF hitting Serb forces.
> Example   BBC News | UK | RAF videos show Serbia bombings


But the fighting started in 1991. I think NATO turned up late to the party...


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## reiver33 (Sep 24, 2021)

The German war plan had 2 options regarding France; block them along the fortified frontier in Alsace or knock them out in a swift campaign before Russia had mobilised. Military arrogance, based on the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-71, opted for the latter. Unfortunately (for the plan), it was based on the assumption that Belgium would stand aside and allow the passage of German troops bypassing Alsace in a ‘right hook’. Aggressive nationalism tends to have a blind spot for the same trait in other, smaller, nations and ‘rational logic’ dictated that the Belgians wouldn’t resist - hence Germany wouldn’t be violating the Franco-British-German treaty that guaranteed their neutrality and national integrity.

“What do you mean, they’re shooting at us?”

Great thing, plans.

Having said that, Germany achieves its war aims in the 1917 treaty of Breast-Livtosk; independent Finland, Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia (now the fledgling USSR) humbled and in the throes of revolt/counter-revolution. These new nations would be fearful of a resurgent Russia and would seek the protection of a strong Central European power in exchange for favourable trade deals.

Hmmm, I wonder who that would be?

Unfortunately (for all concerned) military pride and stubbornness- on both sides - prevents Germany getting out of the war at this point.

“A political solution would dishonour the sacrifice of our glorious dead! We must fight on to final victory!”

Welcome to 1918 and it’s aftermath...


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## Tirellan (Sep 24, 2021)

Well you could say it started as a civil but then broadened to a wider conflict


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## Hetkey (Sep 24, 2021)

.matthew. said:


> True, but there's a good chance the holocaust wouldn't have happened, and perhaps even communism wouldn't have taken over Russia if they'd had some support from Germany. Lesser evil perhaps?
> 
> That said, WW2 did usher in an age of peace for Europe. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is pretty much the longest we haven't all been fighting with each other?


Additionally, WWII forced women into the workplace to supplant the men sent overseas. Thus creating, among other things, the post-war dual-income family, the Equal Rights Movement, and perhaps the Civil Rights Movement as well. All of which increased the diversity of the pool of grey matter in the workforce and led to the technological advances we "enjoy" today.  Oh, and the returning soldiers brought ideas of the modern highway, sports cars, and foods like pizza. Which, I suppose led to other things as well.


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## AllanR (Sep 24, 2021)

Hetkey said:


> Additionally, WWII forced women into the workplace to supplant the men sent overseas. Thus creating, among other things, the post-war dual-income family, the Equal Rights Movement, and perhaps the Civil Rights Movement as well. All of which increased the diversity of the pool of grey matter in the workforce and led to the technological advances we "enjoy" today. Oh, and the returning soldiers brought ideas of the modern highway, sports cars, and foods like pizza. Which, I suppose led to other things as well.


Ended overt colonialism as well.


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## bedyak (Oct 15, 2021)

I think the above are some solid ideas. WW2 might have been avoided but one might argue that a greater conflict with the Soviets might have loomed on the horizon. Oh gosh I am just realizing this is the plot for Red Alert 2 the PC game lol... 

To be brief many nations were on a budget in the 1930's military spending was down at this time throughout Europe until Hitler agitated. Leaves a lot of imaginative scenarios, social movement or revolutions, dictators like Mussolini would have still existed, perhaps we would have seen him operate a solo war in Africa trying to regain Roman glory...


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