# Altered Carbon (Netflix)



## Brian G Turner

Richard Morgan's cyberpunk thriller has been picked up by Netflix, as part of its strategy to develop new and original content:

Netflix Orders 'Altered Carbon' Sci-Fi Series From Laeta Kalogridis & Skydance

Quote:
Netflix has picked up Altered Carbon, a futuristic drama series conceived, written and executive produced by LaNetflix Logoeta Kalogridis (Avatar, Shutter Island, Terminator Genesis). The project, which has received a 10-episode order, is based on Richard Morgan’s award-winning 2002 cyberpunk sci-fi novel of the same name. Skydance Television, which produces Netflix comedy Grace and Frankie, is the studio.


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## Nick B

Not sure if this will end well. It is one of my favourite novels. The main character is a diliberately less than pleasant guy and it would be bad to see him watered down for tv.


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## The Bluestocking

Quellist said:


> Not sure if this will end well. It is one of my favourite novels. The main character is a diliberately less than pleasant guy and it would be bad to see him watered down for tv.



If they do half as good a job as they did with DAREDEVIL and JESSICA JONES, then they probably wouldn't water him down, unpleasantness and all.


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## Ursa major

One wonders what they'd do after season one if it was successful.



Spoiler: Spoilers for the books



A comment on that Deadline article mentions one problem (although possibly not for the producers, who might see it as an opportunity to avoid having to deal with issues about actors wanting to leave the show): the main character is (mostly**) defined by the downloaded mind, so would be portrayed by different actors in different locations. Another is those different locations: three books; three (very) different planets. And the second books is partly set in space.

Apart from cost issues, that second problem might include the thought that those enjoying the first season for its _noir_-ish private eye feel might not be so keen on the very different settings and plots if the series followed the books (or the lack of any continuing characters). And those of us who enjoyed the books might be disappointed if seasons two onwards were simply new stories set in the world of the first book.


** - The body (the sleeve) does have some influence -- if I recall correctly -- so this could be used to explain why the different actors do not behave in exactly the same way as each other.


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## Nick B

Spoiler: Spoilerish



The sleeves have no effect on Kovacs' personality, only physiological differences. So different actors could be a problem unless the director is on the ball. The same actor, however, would ruin the storylines as there is no real interstellar transport. Morgan doesn't go into how colonisation happened originaly, but assumably there is no real viable fast transport between star systems.


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## Ursa major

Spoiler: Oooo! Another spoiler conversation! And it's about to get more spoilery



It has been a while since I read the book, but I'm convinced that the sleeve had more than a purely physical influence on the combination of implanted ,ind and body. For instance, I'm sure I recall that Kovacs's sleeve was involved in some of the emotional contact between Kovacs and his contact in the police (because of whose body became the sleeve).


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## Nick B

Spoiler: Stuff



I'm pretty sure the only emotional stuff was from other geople who knew the original sleeve's owner. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure. I've read the series 3 times. Might be time for round 4, just to be sure


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## Ursa major

NOT a spoiler: Altered Carbon is definitely worth a re-read!


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## Gonk the Insane

Also not a spoiler... I loved the book, and it will be interesting to see how they've adapted it for TV. It's going to be tough to live up to the standard of the book though, I think.


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## ctg

Ursa major said:


> NOT a spoiler: Altered Carbon is definitely worth a re-read!



What about third time?


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## Ursa major

A re-read isn't iteration specific.

And a good book usually rewards re-reads because good books are rarely all surface, but have depth.


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## BAYLOR

That could make for a really good and interesting tv show.


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## Cli-Fi

TV series based on the book will be coming to netflix no date is set yet but casting is shaping up quite nicely. 

Joel Kinnaman To Star In Netflix’s ‘Altered Carbon’ Series; Miguel Sapochnik Directs

Netflix Orders ‘Altered Carbon’ Sci-Fi Series From Laeta Kalogridis & Skydance


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## Rodders

This really is good news


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## ctg

Takishi Kovacs is Japanese, so how does







him come out from that equation? Also is this going to be R-rated?


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## Vertigo

ctg said:


> Takishi Kovacs is Japanese, so how does
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> him come out from that equation? Also is this going to be R-rated?



He came from Harlan's world which I think was Japanese culture but not necessarily Japanese genetically. However since he spends the entire story (apart from the prolog) in a 'sleeve' on Earth - "My sleeve was in his early forties, Protectorate standard, with a swimmer’s build" - I'm not sure it really matters too much.


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## Nick B

Takeshi Kovacs was indeed not Japanese (and in fact the name Kovacs is Hungarian) but from Harlans world. The matter is totaly moot however as he hasn't inhabited his own sleeve for a long time. In Altered Carbon he is sleeved on Earth. And described as Vertigo just posted.


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## Vertigo

The whole sleeving thing actually means that if they continue with the sequels then they'll need a different actor each time 

Edit: Actually come to think of it I doubt his original body is still alive anyway!


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## Nick B

It wouldn't be, by the time of altered carbon. There is no mention of actual life extension, only transfer of the digital recording of the mind being transfered to new bodies.


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## Vertigo

I can't fully remember Kovacs history but I suspect it's not so much to do with life extension as his having been killed several times over whilst he was in the Envoy Corps: "Coming back from the dead can be rough. In the Envoy Corps they teach you to let go before storage..."


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## Nick B

Ahh, yeah. Of course.


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## Connavar

Plus as an avid fan of Altered Carbon and i think Kovacs is one of the best protoganist i have read in SF you are dismissing the half of history, family aka the half that gave him his name.  Kovacs is of hungarian, eastern europe in half of him.

So even if he changes bodies his history, his different family lines is important but not in the way he looks.  Anyone can actually play Kovacs since his personlity is his mind, his history, his skills.  Not the body, the smoker they give for the PI job on the first book.

If you have read the books much more important than Japanese,Hungarian/Bulgarian is to him the world of Harlan where his people, his nation, his culture of mixed ethnicity live in.   Its huge to him that he is from Harlan and not earth and he couldnt careless the body he is giving as special op, turned criminal that does his work for hire.  Give him a short black guy and he will still be kickass, brutal PI hero or a hitman if you need it


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## Connavar

Vertigo said:


> I can't fully remember Kovacs history but I suspect it's not so much to do with life extension as his *having been killed several times over whilst he was in the Envoy Corps: "*Coming back from the dead can be rough. In the Envoy Corps they teach you to let go before storage..."



I think the books say he lost his real body when he went to long term prison, his mind was put on the shelf for many years before the first book.


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## Vertigo

Connavar said:


> I think the books say he lost his real body when he went to long term prison, his mind was put on the shelf for many years before the first book.


Yes I think you're right I do seem to remember something along those lines.


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## Connavar

I must say im somewhat scared of this news because it can be great adapation that capture the brutal character, story, the tone well like Daredevil the Netflix show or it can be totally wrong, horrible adaptation like Daredevil with Ben Affleck......

To me Altered Carbon is still the best post 2000 SF novel i have read so im a huge fan.   Its like postcyberpunk PKD novel with hardcore Noir hero.


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## ctg

Maybe I'm biased by his Japanese form, because book 2 add up so much to his past, especially when he choose to wear a top-class Japanese combat sleeve. Outside of him, I'm most interested to see in this one the hotel Ai. And then Bancrofts. Plus all those awesome fights.


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## Connavar

ctg said:


> Maybe I'm biased by his Japanese form, because book 2 add up so much to his past, especially when he choose to wear a top-class Japanese combat sleeve. Outside of him, I'm most interested to see in this one the hotel Ai. And then Bancrofts. Plus all those awesome fights.



*Broken Angel *i wasnt keen on at all because it was a so so military SF after the awesome noir thrillers that are book 1, book 3.  I can barely remember it and to me Kovacs is=Envoy mentality, his world view is based on the cold pro, the amoral things that life taught him. I enjoyed inside his head.

The awesome fights the brutal way he used his many trainig is really half to get this right, make it a good show. If you fail on that you dont have the inner monolouge, the book pages to get to know Kovacs in the tv show.


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## ctg

Well, you know how it is with translating thoughts and monologue in live picture. A lot acting, visuals and direct exposition has to happen. But saying all this, I had high hopes when Sci-Fi decided to make Dune mini-series. Not the best adaptation, but I liked it. Watched it once on DVD and then haven't bothered re-watching it again.


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## Jenray

Just finished Broken Angels, Richard Morgan's second Takeshi Kovac book...just as good as Altered Carbon which I loved...going to read Woken Furies, the third Takeshi story...I really hope the series will be as good as the book...I've read all of The Expanse series and the Netflix series of those has been excellent so hope the same goes for this book.


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## Werthead

Netflix are bringing Richard Morgan's classic cyberpunk noir novel _Altered Carbon_ (and possibly the sequels) to TV. The first season of the show, which adapts the first novel in the series, will air in Spring 2018. Netflix have started releasing teasers and images for it and it looks amazing.

Three GIFs showing some of the set design can be seen *here*.

A fake in-universe advert and four short teaser clips can be seen *here*.

This looks...impressive.


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## Cli-Fi

I just saw these myself they look wonderful.


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## Dave

I've merged these three threads in the TV Discussions together into one (but left the other thread in Books.)

I must say that it looks great. I didn't find the book (only read first) particularly SF (except for the body-hopping concept obviously.) It will make a great action/thriller series with a SF slant though, which is probably exactly what they are looking for.


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## Werthead

FULL TRAILER.

MANY NEW PICTURES.

YES.


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## ctg

> Netflix’s_ Altered Carbon _looks a hell of a lot like_ Blade Runner_. That isn’t a surprise—after all, _Blade Runner_ is the father of modern cyberpunk. But _Altered Carbon_ is something all its own. Because in the new scifi series, the biggest threat to humanity isn’t artificial intelligence—it’s immortality.


 https://io9.gizmodo.com/altered-carbon-asks-can-humans-handle-becoming-gods-1821556381

I rewatched BladeRunner 2049 over the weekend, and I liked it more than what I saw in the theatre at first time. But this, I have a completely different picture for Alterated Carbon Earth than what they're showing here. I imagined them completely different. But, I also imagined Covacs in a bit different looking sleeve. I guess that's the curse on using minimal description.





Bancroft on right. For an immortal the sleeve doesn't look as if he has sunken a great deal of money in it.


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## Ursa major

It has been a while since I read the book, but I seriously doubt that the sleeves are meant to be immortal.


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## Dave

Ursa major said:


> It has been a while since I read the book, but I seriously doubt that the sleeves are meant to be immortal.


Their "souls" or whatever you want call their "human essence" could be, because you can body-hop forever if you are wealthy enough to do so, or have a corporate backer. It isn't "immortality" though, it is more like retreading old tyres.


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## Ursa major

That was my understanding of Altered Carbon's "immortality".


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## ctg

Ursa major said:


> That was my understanding of Altered Carbon's "immortality".



As long as the "stack" survives it can be downloaded into a new "sleeve." Meths, like Bancroft has lived far longer than normal people and those who know them, consider them as immortals. But, unlike dieties, they can die and then be reborn into a new body (sleeve). Kovacs has lived a number of lives, but he isn't like Bancroft.


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## Ursa major

I know.


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## Dave

In Laurens Bancroft and other "Meths", I simply imagined that kind of arrogance that comes with the privilege of being very rich. I didn't think of it as being a product of the "immortality." Interesting that article and others see it differently. Do you think that his almost 'practical' immortality actually changed his personality over time?


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## ctg

Dave said:


> Do you think that his almost 'practical' immortality actually changed his personality over time?



Most definitely. If immortality isn't a curse, it will go into your head and twist you. Being mortal makes you humble, but in Bancroft case, being able to buy one sleeve after another could not have been a good case. The life in that case loses a lot of its meaning. If sleeving was possible, I'd imagine that some people would have storages for changing bodies in the same rate they change clothes. The idiom: "You have to wear your best face for the occasion," would have completely different meaning than the norm we know.


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## Connavar

ctg said:


> *Most definitely. If immortality isn't a curse, it will go into your head and twist you. Being mortal makes you humble, but in Bancroft case, being able to buy one sleeve after another could not have been a good case. The life in that case loses a lot of its meaning.* If sleeving was possible, I'd imagine that some people would have storages for changing bodies in the same rate they change clothes. The idiom: "You have to wear your best face for the occasion," would have completely different meaning than the norm we know.



That was one of the things that fascinated me most in the books, what has having so many sleeves, the power to live centuries done to the uber rich, the way they saw human life, it wasnt seen as forever young, party lifestyle.

It is realistic future, world in that only the rich can have bodies to wake up in when someone kills your sleeve.  The only other people that was deemed worth to live again in other bodies by those in power was specialist like Kovacs, special ops soldier, sort of violent PI was always needed even if he was a criminal put in a shelf.   You can clearly see that Kovacs current mind,self has been changed, altered and not for the better by living centuries, traveling and waking up in other bodies because of his job.  The young soldier Kovacs in the flashbacks is very different from the old soul in *Altered Carbon.
*
It also shows how worthless the human bodies is compared the great machine that is our brain, everything we are soul,so on is the thoughts in our brain.  If i became an old white woman body doesnt matter if my brain is the same.  No wonder Kovacs didnt react to waking up in older, less fit body that smoked.


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## ctg

As it has become tradition with the new Netflix show I watched first three before I was ready to write anything. The first thing I noticed was the minor changes and then major ones started appearing. If you haven't read the books and you don't have OCD, don't worry about the fact you'll learn more about Kovacs time in the Envoy Core than readers ever got to learn in first time. Richard K Morgan saved all that stuff to book 2. Most of what we got in the Book 1 was a couple scene with Quellchrist Falconer, explaining the important bits so that you could get on with the story. 

I guess they needed to show the whole thing because otherwise Kovacs almost supernatural talents are unexplained. The minor changes are with the world and how the certain scene were written, like the introduction to Bancrofts palace. I, for one, cannot erase the tennis scene that Mister Morgan used to introduce Miriam, Laurens and some other minor family members. The thing that you miss in that is the fact that Miriam, unlike Laurens actually does something with her sleeve to keep it in excellent shape. She's not wearing it just for the show.

Well, maybe to lure some fleeting minds to admire her but when you're in that sort of position, you would most likely want people worshipping you "for being perfect." It also makes clear that Laurens doesn't have the same mindset. He doesn't really care for being so rich that he can own his own facilities where his backup sleeves are stored. So, in that sense the murder of Laurens Bancroft doesn't make much sense.

Only later on when you start to realise how bad boy he has been do you get a sense that someone might have tried to get away with him, but even then cocking up the backup facility is something the murderer missed. Which leaves the murder two possibilities, one, the murderer didn't failed to study the most important details or two, Laurens tried to kill himself but someone failed to stop the process of resleeving. 

But, what that is the salt in this story, as Kovacs doesn't track down the perp straight away. Instead, like he says, "I'm going to discover some ugly truths, some you might not want to be discovered. It's a nasty business but, I'm going to do it any ways." And that leads to the business of learning on how the Altered Carbon world works. The thing Richard never explained was the Needle Cast.

Even though the TV shows depicts this process being Faster-Than-Light, it isn't. Instead the whole thing goes around the signal strength as the needle cast is a very powerful broadcast that is pinpointed in the vast canvas of space. In other words its a very direct, very narrow and very powerful signal that is used to carry the information between the star systems without losing its contents. Most often this transmission is used to carry the stack information so that the people can get download into new sleeves at their destinations. During that process you would lose years while the transmission travels from A to B and in theory, you could lose your life if something happened to the destination world in the meantime. Therefore, a lot of that time Kovacs spent in ice, could be down to the fact that his data was travelling from Harker's world to Earth. 

Although you might read this as a complaining, it isn't because I love this show almost as much as I love the actual books. I never thought this series would happen so soon, because certain people has hammered into me that the Cyberpunks is dead. Is it?


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## Nick B

I didn't like the massive, unnecessary info dump about resleeving at the medical centre at the beginning, but other than that, no complaints. There are differences to the book of course.


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## Dave

I've only watched the first episode (I didn't realise the whole thing would be released at once and don't have time right now, though I'm not complaining.) I therefore, didn't notice too much different (though I do remember the tennis scene now.) I thought it was very faithful, and very good. 

One thing I did wonder was how they are going to space the book out to a whole season of TV, and surely, even adding parts from the second book would still run out of story? I'll just have to wait and see. 

Also James Purefoy was on BBC Radio 2 Steve Wright show yesterday talking about the series and his other work. Inevitably, Steve Wright compared it to Bladerunner. I wonder if people who have not read the books will always do that? Apart from the flying cars, urban sprawl and neon advertising (which isn't really a prerogative of Bladerunner) I don't see much similarity - except that they both have at their heart a detective story, and as discussed on this forum before there are very few examples of good detective stories in science fiction (and quite often when there are there is generally some deus ex machina solution to the murder that is rather unsatisfying.)


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## ctg

Dave said:


> One thing I did wonder was how they are going to space the book out to a whole season of TV, and surely, even adding parts from the second book would still run out of story? I'll just have to wait and see.



There are much more about the book 2 than I'd have liked to see, and it makes me think they aren't going to do another season, when they have packed so much off that stuff in this one. If they'll do second season, maybe they'll put in stuff that they left out. 



Dave said:


> Also James Purefoy was on BBC Radio 2 Steve Wright show yesterday talking about the series and his other work. Inevitably, Steve Wright compared it to Bladerunner. I wonder if people who have not read the books will always do that?



When they cannot use another pop culture reference to describe the scenes they'll use the Bladerunner. The neonlights, hookers, and blood on the street can be found from other products, but as it was the first look they're always going back to it. I wouldn't have been surprised if they'd used Gibson Neuromancer as another reference, but for the mainstreet audience knowing that classic is much harder example. 

Thing is we are living in the world that is increasingly cyberpunkish with these huge corporations, private militaries and technologies that enable paralysed man walk. In Altered Carbon these things are all true, and it goes further as Mister Morgan wrote about taking it all a bit further. I would classify AC as cyberpunk in ultratech world. Very similar in timeline to Reynolds Chasm City. 

Maybe Netflix will make it next?


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## ctg

I finished it and I understand why they showed bits from the next book in this one. Netflix series is based upon story and the producers, hopefully with Morgan's blessing decided to not be truly faithful to the trilogy. So, some faiths has been altered and some of the coolest scenes isn't in it, but, it's not all bad. 

Altered Carbon is an excellent series as it mostly stays mostly faithful to the originating story. You get the core from the book and you'll get to know Kovacs is more than a human; as in the cyberpunk terms he's altered human. But, what might not come across that easily is that Morgan's world is an utopia instead of dystopia that one so often finds in the core of this story. 

Although this story is really dark, there's so much light in it that everything you'll see is actually positive. In the terms of mortality the stack technology offers immortality for those who can afford. But, it doesn't end there as the offworld locations are available. Some in contractual terms in the service of UN forces. So, in a way Morgan's world is very similar to one seen in the Expanse, as in the core of both series are united forces that are doing the world policing wherever humans have spread.

I hope people see success in this one as so far the cyberpunk has been a hard bargain for the mainstream audience. Some see the shades of dystopia so rebelling that they'll might stop watching this altogether. Nevertheless, I raise my hat and applaud for work well done. 

I loved it and I'd like to see more.


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## ctg

> Similarly, while the world’s population is growing, it’d have to swell an awful lot before people started living on the Golden Gate Bridge in stacks of cargo containers, as they do both in _Altered Carbon_ and Gibson’s Bridge trilogy. If America has one thing, it’s a lot of space. Watch out for a similar arrangement in the upcoming Spielberg adaptation of _Ready Player One_, in which the protagonist lives in a stack of motorhomes outside Oklahoma. In the novel, no good reason is given for why the motorhomes are stacked like this.


 What Netflix's Altered Carbon's cyberpunk world gets wrong about the future | WIRED UK

This thing, in the book Morgan described that outside the city most of the country had returned back to wilderness. Kovacs rents an old school petrol engine car and drives off the city to seek Vernon's family. When he finds them, they're living in an abandoned aircraft carrier and the description sets its scenery to be very back-to-the-roots like. 

The Bay City is very urban, even sprawl like opposite to modern day San Francisco. So, I can only assume they thought that making the Golden Gate Bridge look as if it had been populated by poor people somewhat fought against Morgan's vision. The Earth simply isn't as overcrowded as it is depicted in the Netflix series. But in the terms of cyberpunk vision it worked.


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## The Bluestocking

ctg said:


> I finished it and I understand why they showed bits from the next book in this one. Netflix series is based upon story and the producers, hopefully with Morgan's blessing decided to not be truly faithful to the trilogy. So, some faiths has been altered and some of the coolest scenes isn't in it, but, it's not all bad.
> 
> Altered Carbon is an excellent series as it mostly stays mostly faithful to the originating story. You get the core from the book and you'll get to know Kovacs is more than a human; as in the cyberpunk terms he's altered human. But, what might not come across that easily is that Morgan's world is an utopia instead of dystopia that one so often finds in the core of this story.
> 
> Although this story is really dark, there's so much light in it that everything you'll see is actually positive. In the terms of mortality the stack technology offers immortality for those who can afford. But, it doesn't end there as the offworld locations are available. Some in contractual terms in the service of UN forces. So, in a way Morgan's world is very similar to one seen in the Expanse, as in the core of both series are united forces that are doing the world policing wherever humans have spread.
> 
> I hope people see success in this one as so far the cyberpunk has been a hard bargain for the mainstream audience. Some see the shades of dystopia so rebelling that they'll might stop watching this altogether. Nevertheless, I raise my hat and applaud for work well done.
> 
> I loved it and I'd like to see more.



Amen to this.

This adaptation did another thing right as well - their treatment of female characters and commentary on violence against women. This isn't common at all in mainstream pop culture entertainment. (*Cough*Game of Thrones *CoughCough*). BLADE RUNNER 2049 is also Cyberpunk and was misogynist as hell. ALTERED CARBON is accused of being a "low rent rip-off of BLADE RUNNER" which, gimme a break - it isn't. It's part of the same genre but does a lot of things better... including and especially the portrayal of women and violence against women. I've read critics screaming about the prostitution/sex work component of the story but not one critic actually bothered to give credit where credit is due - that we get to see systemic violence against women roundly condemned in the story.

Even a very geeky friend of mine who has been complaining that the series diverged a lot from the books acknowledged this. And that the adaptation can stand on its own merits and is entertaining and thought-provoking in its own way.

And again - certainly far better than BLADE RUNNER 2049 which had him (a PKD fan) foaming at the mouth.


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## ctg

The Bluestocking said:


> I've read critics screaming about the prostitution/sex work component of the story but not one critic actually bothered to give credit where credit is due



If you remove two elements from this story it falls flat on it face. One of them is the violence on weaker sex but it's not celebrated. Instead its shown that the act is condemned strongly. In the next book, this element changes a bit as that sort of event doesn't play a big role. Mostly likely we are going to see oppression against masses done differently. Why nobody has pointed out that the AI's suffer in this series a lot?


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## Dave

I'm still only up to episode 4 but I'd say that there was extreme violence against everyone, regardless of sex. We saw it against women, because Bancroft is heterosexual with a liking for beating up on women, and so in investigating the case it was necessary to speak to those women. However, the zero-G cage fighting and the VR torture rooms did not discriminate. I remember both from reading the book, but in full-screen, technicolor, that violence was much more graphic.


ctg said:


> Why nobody has pointed out that the AI's suffer in this series a lot?


I agree. The discrimination against AIs is rife. The poor may be third-class citizens, but the AIs are just machines without feelings, when clearly they do have feelings. Abuse does not have to be violent physical abuse to be worrying.


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## The Bluestocking

ctg said:


> If you remove two elements from this story it falls flat on it face. One of them is the violence on weaker sex but it's not celebrated. Instead its shown that the act is condemned strongly. In the next book, this element changes a bit as that sort of event doesn't play a big role. Mostly likely we are going to see oppression against masses done differently. Why nobody has pointed out that the AI's suffer in this series a lot?



This scene in particular shows how appropriately the show treats violence against women:



Spoiler



When Tak's group mounts their infiltration of the snuff prostitution den Head In The Clouds, they didn't realise what it was. But when Vernon Elliot (posing as a john, with a camera on him showing what's happening around him) is confronted with the reality, he not only treated the sex worker with kindness, everyone back at The Raven (including Poe the AI) were genuinely horrified, then doubly determined to take down Rei's corrupt and cruel operations. Now that was extremely well-done as a way to show how evil systems perpetrating violence against women is - it's not shown gratuitously for kicks. It's shown to be the depravity that it is that it is. And it didn't seem preachy because we see the characters' reactions as a group instead of them verbally expressing their horror.



Not many shows do this and/or can pull it off. 

Also: I applaud the showrunners and script writers for showing us a racially diverse future and being able to avoid whitewashing.


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## ctg

The Bluestocking said:


> I applaud the showrunners and script writers for showing us a racially diverse future and being able to avoid whitewashing.



They do this same thing in Bright, where Orcs are seen the lowest form of life quality. The whole thing with Head-in-the-Clouds comes out sooner in the actual book as a result to investigate Bancroft's amnesia. I believe Morgan wrote it in as the ultimate conclusion to the story into the power abuse. Earth is consider to be the last place where people want to go in the Kovac's universe. Harlan's World is considered to be the hub for all sorts of activity, while Earth is considered to be the trash bin, a place littered with historical ruins.

The biggest disappoint for me was that they didn't show Miriam's Map Room and explain her connection with the Songspire. They also did poor job on showing that Miriam is the wealthy one and Bancroft is the money making machine. But, what they did very well was showing strong females in all fronts. None of them looked especially week, even though Ava was supposed to be the weakest one.


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## WarriorMouse

Have never read the book/books? and having now binge watched  the Netflix adaptation I likely won't, nor will I likely watch a second series. Dystopian future of that type just isn't my thing.
That said, anyone else see the Zamboni in the series street scene's ?


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## ctg

WarriorMouse said:


> Dystopian future of that type just isn't my thing.



I bet you don't like the Expanse as well, do you? The future in it is really dark. They don't have the luxury of other worlds. Earth is overpopulated and from what we've seen a not very nice to live if you're a normal citizen. The class warfare you see in this one is even more extreme. 

In the book 1, which deals with Earth, most of the countryside has turned back or under AI controlled farms and so on. In the book 2 you learn that humanity has advanced really far away from what you see on Earth, while the final one you get to learn about the aliens they call in this series as Eternals and how far humanity has advanced in the space-technology. The only dystopian thing in this series besides the Meths is the class warfare and the dividence between the rich and the poor. Rest is as you see today.


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## Connavar

ctg said:


> If you remove two elements from this story it falls flat on it face. One of them is the violence on weaker sex but it's not celebrated. Instead its shown that the act is condemned strongly. In the next book, this element changes a bit as that sort of event doesn't play a big role. Mostly likely we are going to see oppression against masses done differently. Why nobody has pointed out that the AI's suffer in this series a lot?



The few negative reviews i have seen are from people who dont know the book,the kind of story it was or even bother to look up what norish cyberpunk with dystopian future is suppose look like.   Its just mainstream blog bs to complain about violence on women because that happens too often our world why wouldnt it be part of the story in future SF story where the people have even less power in places like Bay City,Earth.  Also dont watch a story based on Richard Morgans novel if you are complain about violence, nudity.  The original story is about a trained killer, who is altered to kill for others. 

It is better with critics who talk about Takeshi Kovacs himself, the world is impressively well copied from the book but it can be too much info dump, its not as seemlessly well build over 2-3 books like Morgan who told us more about Falconer, Harlan's World, Kovacs time as enjoy in the second book and not in Altered Carbon.

I agree pretty much with your assessment, this is well made, successful Cyberpunk adaptation, that might popularize the subgenre in TVs golden age.  As big Kovacs fan, fan of Morgan uber cool cyberpunk worlds, great blend of action, exploration of identity,bodies i was happy to see it didnt disappoint me as fan of the book series.


----------



## Dave

When I saw Dichen Lachman, from _Dollhouse_, in the training camp scene, I thought she was too big an actress to be only in that one scene. So, I'm not surprised she has just appeared in the episode I just watched. I hadn't realised she was Kovac's sister though, and I don't remember that happening in the book, so we are starting to diverge a little now? 


ctg said:


> The whole thing with Head-in-the-Clouds comes out sooner in the actual book as a result to investigate Bancroft's amnesia. I believe Morgan wrote it in as the ultimate conclusion to the story into the power abuse. Earth is consider to be the last place where people want to go in the Kovac's universe. Harlan's World is considered to be the hub for all sorts of activity, while Earth is considered to be the trash bin, a place littered with historical ruins.


My memory of the ending is poor, but we seem to have already covered most of the book, just half way through the episodes.


----------



## ctg

Dave said:


> I hadn't realised she was Kovac's sister though, and I don't remember that happening in the book, so we are starting to diverge a little now?



Yes. It's the big difference.


----------



## Connavar

I like the changes that is very different, new because it's still the same story of Kovacs remembering his old self,history with QF, envoys while working the case. Doesn't matter they mix book 1& book 2.  A page by page copy of the books are a waste for us book fans.  I wanted to see as a new SF story with TK, his world. 

I hope there is season 2 because then there will be a new actor with new sleeve to fit the story. Hope it's book 3, focus on asian actor being the cool Japanese-slavic SF hero.  Like the flashbacks in S1 I want to see the body Takeshi prefer.  That's a rare chance.   I think book 2 is weaker no matter the body he is in


----------



## ctg

There are three things I would have loved to see in this one, first Bancrofts personal armourer. There isn't a similar character in the following books. Second, the whole arena fight. Third, Kadmin's interrogation in Hendrix VR suite.


----------



## The Bluestocking

ctg said:


> They do this same thing in Bright, where Orcs are seen the lowest form of life quality.



The difference is that BRIGHT tackled the issue of racism pretty badly and in a hamfisted way. What I liked about the ALTERED CARBON adaptation is that racial diversity is taken as a matter-of-fact. The future is diverse and it's apparent in the show.

Also, @Connavar said: "Its just mainstream blog bs to complain about violence on women because that happens too often our world why wouldnt it be part of the story in future SF story where the people have even less power in places like Bay City,Earth."

This is true. And when I indicated further up that I'm impressed with how the show handles violence against women (VAW), I meant it. As the head of an anti-violence against women organisation, I'm pretty fed-up with the way VAW is often fetishised and normalised in pop culture. What ALTERED CARBON did is to show that it is utterly unacceptable and that when confronted with it, action must be taken to stop it. We can't wipe out VAW from shows and books and songs because VAW is all too common in real life. However, storytellers can approach the issue thoughtfully as the makers of ALTERED CARBON did.


----------



## WarriorMouse

ctg said:


> I bet you don't like the Expanse as well, do you?



Got that right. I hated it. Tried reading it but just to dark. Also tried to watch the series but .... If I want to be depressed I can just watch or read the news.  I would like to see a TV series adaptation of Asimov's Foundation books. Those were a dark dystopian future, but there was still hope.
  There was some funny bits in the Altered Carbon episodes. The Zamboni cameo's and being able to recognize some of the location shots, plus the appearance of full tilt Punk "Max Headroom"


----------



## Connavar

The Bluestocking said:


> Also: I applaud the showrunners and script writers for showing us a racially diverse future and being able to avoid whitewashing.



I applaud the author first for creating truly broad,multicultural world that showed an Earth, other planets where there were hybrid cultures in a realistic ways like Harlan's World and the future Earth had class, identity, religion issues that was a problem for whole humanity. Many SF books even from today the future of humanity is shown in a context of white,American,European world too often.

I agree about the showrunners too, i applaud them, the main creator/showrunner for sticking with Morgan's view of his world. She told in interview that it was important to show the racially diverse world, that Kovacs prefer bodies that looked like his Japanese-Slavic biracial self. Its so different to see the hero being played by two Asian actors in modern big tv show, film.   They could have taken the easy way, whitewashing like Ghost in The Shell, Death Note, Battle Angle Alita.  They even made Elliot family, daughter black when they didnt have change such minor characters, their ethnicity

It shouldnt be a big change, surprise to see a Latin female cop play a big role in big SF tv/film who speaks Spanish half of the show. The female leads in the genre are seldom minority from other cultures, languages.  Thats the problem of the genre in these mediums the norm for the people you see, read about excludes so many others.....


----------



## svalbard

I watched the first episode last night and I have now lined up the series on Netflix for a weekend binge watch.

After initial confusion placing characters and timelines I was immersed, in no small part due to Kinnamen's performance. I thought the hotel scene was excellent, although I am still unsure of the establishments properties.

I was also not familiar with Morgan's work before this. It calls for an investigation on my part into his writings.

The Expanse has competition.


----------



## WaylanderToo

gotta be honest just binged this over 3 sessions, really enjoyed it


----------



## ctg

> Making_ Altered Carbon _was no easy feat, by any means, and that includes in the costume department. Over 2,000 actors and extras were featured on the series, with up to 600 unique costumes that ran the gamut from near-celestial beings to synth fight club owners. In this interview with io9, costume designer Ann Foley talks about how they made a series set hundreds of years in the future feel relatable, except for those who saw themselves as more-than-human.


 https://io9.gizmodo.com/altered-carbons-costume-designer-talks-about-designing-1822670864


----------



## Dave

I've finished it and I liked the way that they introduced the back story for Kovacs and the changes they made to make that more relevant.

On the subject of race and ethnicity in the future, unless we go down some route of picking children's genes from out of a catalogue, then it will be a very long time before we all become homogeneous. The world is a lot bigger than most people realise, and the majority of the world is not pale skinned, blue eyed, blonds, nor do they speak English, so no reason why that would change. The wealth is concentrated in a very small number of people though, and that is likely to continue.

I'm still not sure about Meth's personalities being changed by the very act of living through so many sleeves. It was mentioned that there were mental health issues from soldiers living in many 'different' sleeves, but Meth's have clones to sleeve into. Presumably you sleeve into a young copy, grow old in that, and then sleeve into a new young copy. I accept that is pretty odd and must have some consequences, but I still think that the kind of people who are Meths are already arrogant, spoilt, unfeeling and full of a sense of privilege, just because they are wealthy. Being able to afford to sleeve into an unlimited number of clones is not necessarily a cause, rather an additional symptom. This would need to be a much bigger discussion about whether our personalities are fixed from childhood or puberty or birth, and whether they develop and change as we grow old, and by how much. The fact is that there are no people alive as old as Meths and so we can't really answer definitively. Reileen had possibly changed. We didn't see enough of her in the past.  

I think the more interesting philosophical question concerns the spoiled rich offspring of Meths. They have been spoiled rich kids for centuries and that must affect their personalities. The creation of Meths has destroyed the natural course of maturity and progression. The son will never take over the role of the father.


----------



## DrMclony

Am I the only one who finds the sound mixing on this show unbearable?


----------



## Dave

No, there were several times when I couldn't understand what Kovaks had said at all. Once I even had to replay it and still had trouble.

I'm not saying it is alright, but it seems to have been a recent problem with several TV productions. The BBC was heavily criticised last year for some period drama (I never watched it and so can't remember the name.) So much so, that I think they went back an edited later episodes after complaints.


----------



## The Bluestocking

I watched it with the subtitles on. That helped. But yeah - a few times Kovacs sounded all mumbly.


----------



## DrMclony

Yeah, that was my experience. There is a craze among sound engineers lately to cut the treble down and all but obliterate the mid levels because it makes it seem "edgy". In actual fact it is a lazy arse way to fail to give atmosphere, and renders everything unwatchable. It does vibrate your gut in a cinema, but it renders home sound systems wasted money as it sounds better on a two dollar speaker from a junk store. Even the slightest background noise becomes boomy hum which obscures the dialog even further, like listening to a snake hiss through white noise. Where audio tracks are concerned, I am afraid I am a bit of a perfectionist.


----------



## WaylanderToo

DrMclony said:


> Yeah, that was my experience. There is a craze among sound engineers lately to cut the treble down and all but obliterate the mid levels because it makes it seem "edgy". In actual fact it is a lazy arse way to fail to give atmosphere, and renders everything unwatchable. It does vibrate your gut in a cinema, but it renders home sound systems wasted money as it sounds better on a two dollar speaker from a junk store. Even the slightest background noise becomes boomy hum which obscures the dialog even further, like listening to a snake hiss through white noise. Where audio tracks are concerned, I am afraid I am a bit of a perfectionist.




is it possible you are one of us older ones meaning that your hearing has dropped off from 'peak sound' (so to speak)? Speaking as an oldie I will admit that I do find some mixing quite poor, or indeed, the background noise (especially music!) too intrusive... but I'd argue it's still less annoying than the canned laughter we used to get in sitcoms


----------



## Vladd67

WaylanderToo said:


> is it possible you are one of us older ones meaning that your hearing has dropped off from 'peak sound' (so to speak)? Speaking as an oldie I will admit that I do find some mixing quite poor, or indeed, the background noise (especially music!) too intrusive... but I'd argue it's still less annoying than the canned laughter we used to get in sitcoms


Growing up watching M*A*S*H on BBC2 I got used to it without canned laughter, it is almost unwatchable with it.


----------



## DrMclony

lol Canned laughter is always pretty bad... On an aside, I dragged my old recording cans out of retirement which I haven't used in years, and it's fine and dandy through those. Go figure. I wouldn't call myself old, but perhaps I haven't been always so kind to my ears lol. The tinitus does get annoying some days.


----------



## The Bluestocking

I'm nowhere near old and there were times I would've strained to hear what Kovacs was saying (Joel Kinnaman has quite a baritone rumble) if it wasn't for the subtitles.


----------



## WarriorMouse

DrMclony said:


> Yeah, that was my experience. There is a craze among sound engineers lately to cut the treble down and all but obliterate the mid levels because it makes it seem "edgy". In actual fact it is a lazy arse way to fail to give atmosphere, and renders everything unwatchable. It does vibrate your gut in a cinema, but it renders home sound systems wasted money as it sounds better on a two dollar speaker from a junk store. Even the slightest background noise becomes boomy hum which obscures the dialog even further, like listening to a snake hiss through white noise. Where audio tracks are concerned, I am afraid I am a bit of a perfectionist.



Sound engineers get a lot of flak for things they often have no ultimate control over. The director or producer sets the overall tone of a production in the editing room. That person sits in a studio and edits the recordings and footage to what they want to hear and see.


----------



## ctg

WarriorMouse said:


> That person sits in a studio and edits the recordings and footage to what they want to hear and see.



Sometimes the record is also ultra low, possibly set for the headphones instead of the loudspeakers.


----------



## duckEwe

Just watched episodes 1-3 and they were AWESOME!

One thing I hated was Takeshi smoking, so obviously not part of the story and only there because the tobacco companies pay millions to producers to write it in, doesn't netflix have enough money?

Was wondering how others feel about the cigarette commercials inside TV shows and films. Any opinions or comments, ?


----------



## WaylanderToo

duckEwe said:


> Just watched episodes 1-3 and they were AWESOME!
> 
> One thing I hated was Takeshi smoking, so obviously not part of the story and only there because the tobacco companies pay millions to producers to write it in, doesn't netflix have enough money?
> 
> Was wondering how others feel about the cigarette commercials inside TV shows and films. Any opinions or comments, ?




TBH I didn't really notice it... that is to say yes I did see he smoked but it really didn't register as out of place or jarring


----------



## Vladd67

I believe the smoking is in the book, Takeshi didn’t smoke but the original owner of the sleeve did. Ortega even says she was always trying to get Ryder to quit.


----------



## Nick B

The smoking was in the book not added. Kovacs was pretty unhappy in the book that the sleeve had a bad nicotine addiction.


----------



## duckEwe

now that you both mention that, Takeshi did say in ep 1 or 2, that the sleeve had a nicotine addiction.


----------



## Nick B

Here are my (few) gripes about the TV adaptation. 
The biggest, and main one. Envoys were protectorate special forces, not a rebellion group. Kovacs turned rebel later. There is no reason for this backstop change, and it makes little sense. You see the (incredibly expensively trained and modified) Envoys training in the wilderness. This makes no sense. 

2- The huge amount of totally gratuitous full frontal nudity. One of my pet hates, as it always seems a cheap sh*t to attract teenagers to watch shows (like got). Countless amounts of breasts and lady bits on show. One male bit once. Hardly balance for equality. As usual for tv/film. And completely unnecessary IMHO. No problem with full frontal nudity if it is a story part, but it almost never is. 

3. Quellchrist Falconer was not an Envoy, she was a rebel leader, hugely important in her own right, and it demean that importance by making her a suoersoldier. She was a hero for her intellect and wisdom, not battle prowess. 

That's it. Other than those bits, I love the TV adaptation.


----------



## ctg

-


----------



## The Bluestocking

Vladd67 said:


> I believe the smoking is in the book, Takeshi didn’t smoke but the original owner of the sleeve did. Ortega even says she was always trying to get Ryder to quit.



Yup - and while Ortega and Kovacs were waiting at the posh cloning facility/vault for the uber-rich, Kovacs told Ortega that smoking isn't his vice but the vice of the sleeve he's in.


----------



## WarriorMouse

Nick B said:


> The huge amount of totally gratuitous full frontal nudity. One of my pet hates, as it always seems a cheap sh*t to attract teenagers to watch shows (like got). Countless amounts of breasts and lady bits on show. One male bit once. Hardly balance for equality. As usual for tv/film. And completely unnecessary IMHO. No problem with full frontal nudity if it is a story part, but it almost never is.


 There was two instances of male bits on show by my count but still ...
Totally agree with comment.


----------



## The Bluestocking

Nick B said:


> The huge amount of totally gratuitous full frontal nudity. One of my pet hates, as it always seems a cheap sh*t to attract teenagers to watch shows (like got). Countless amounts of breasts and lady bits on show. One male bit once. Hardly balance for equality. As usual for tv/film. And completely unnecessary IMHO. No problem with full frontal nudity if it is a story part, but it almost never is.



Also, you could cut out all the sex scenes and it wouldn't make any difference to the story. Totally gratuitous.

But otherwise, this adaptation rocks!


----------



## Vladd67

The show runner on nudity.
https://io9.gizmodo.com/altered-carbons-showrunner-talks-the-shows-high-nudity-1822910712


----------



## Dave

That link asks:


> What do y’all think?


I think that it is probably a bigger problem for US audiences than for European. US censors allow far more violence than European censors and for nudity the coin is reversed. I noticed that it had a larger than usual amount of "nipples and butts", but it didn't bother me, and if it was deliberately done to "illustrate the frivolousness of the future’s bodies" and that "the advent of this technology fundamentally and substantially changes people’s relationships with their idea of their own body" then I believe that it worked. Bodies were not depicted as people but simply as meat. I don't get aroused by meat.


----------



## The Bluestocking

I had no problem with the nudity but I still think that two out of the three sex scenes involving Kovacs were not needed whatsoever.


----------



## Dave

Yes, I do have that same criticism though. Where actual sexual relations were shown, then I think more could have been made of the emotional reasons and consequences. With Kovacs and Mrs. Bancroft, in the TV series it seemed unnecessary, but was more important in the book (I think.) With Kovacs and Ortega, he is actually in her former partner's sleeve and you have to ask what is happening in her head, but that went largely unanswered both times.

The nicotine addiction is something else that was better explained in the book.

I like the idea that the book and TV adaption are not the same thing. I wouldn't want them to be the same. However, each must stand up on its own merit. You shouldn't need to have read the book to understand the TV series. It is obvious from many comments, here and elsewhere, that the TV series failed on that level.


----------



## ctg

The Bluestocking said:


> I had no problem with the nudity but I still think that two out of the three sex scenes involving Kovacs were not needed whatsoever.



In the books all those scenes with Miriam are important. In the televised series Miriam comes out a bit poorly, but a lot of interesting things were written on those, especially the involvement of powerful drugs. Without Miriam dripping in that info - literally - Kovacs would have had harder time understanding what really happened at Bancroft's house. Ultimately Miriam wanted her husband to fail so that she could take the role as true head of the Bancroft dynasty.


----------



## Lumens

Watched two episodes so far... Is the dialogue a bit weak? Not bad as such, just a bit tired. Maybe it's a genre thing, or it could just be me.

Otherwise it's not bad.


----------



## ctg

> There are scenes of eye-watering violence in the novel and its sequels, Broken Angels and Woken Furies. “I’m not a fan of violence,” says Morgan, “but I love it in my entertainment. Everything I write is interrogating that paradox. A lot of my writing comes from rage. It’s all been vomited out on to the page. I’m incensed by how badly humans behave. I guess what it’s about is wasted potential. We could be so much better. We always trip up, always manage to f*ck it up. We seem to have a will to do that.”
> 
> Critics have been largely positive about the Netflixseries, but a lot of attention has been focused on a sequence that – in the book – sees Kovacs sleeved in the body of a young woman, who is brutally tortured. “The point is, he’s lost all the hardwiring of a combat body. Most of the detail was drawn from Amnesty International reports I’d been reading about the torture of female dissidents in Iran and Colombia. I was filled with this fury.”
> 
> On screen, though, no gender switch is made. It is the actor Joel Kinnaman, playing Kovacs, whom we see tortured. Kalogridis made the change, says Morgan, feeling that torturing a woman would “come across as exploitative, a sick thrill for misogynists”. He’s fine about the change – “it’s still pretty horrible” – and acknowledges that the scene in the book has “been called out as being super-sexist and exploitative”. It never seemed that way to him, though. “To me, it was a kind of allegiance – that Kovacs is going to suffer what women in this situation suffer. And then, of course, he comes back later and slaughters everybody in sight.”
> 
> I tell him that this rage appears at odds with his genial demeanour. “You say I look like a nice guy,” he says. “I think I mostly am. It’s tamped down.” He then points to a scene in the adaptation in which a woman puts a convicted rapist – or rather, his consciousness – into a snake’s body. It sends the man insane.
> 
> “Netflix put out an ad asking if you would do this to your worst enemy. I’m like: ‘Yeah, probably.’ There’s no limit to my capacity for vindictive violence, I think, if some of these switches are tripped. I look at what goes on in places like Iran, especially against women. Violence against women always makes me angry – and when I say angry, I mean red-mist angry.
> 
> “I would cheerfully butcher every revolutionary guard in Tehran if I could wear enough body armour to get through it and survive. So that’s where the fury came from. And you get it out on the page. But you have to temper it with the fact that, if you just write fantasies of violence, it won’t work. It’s got to feel realistic. There has to be a cost.”


 Altered Carbon author Richard Morgan: 'There’s no limit to my capacity for violence'



> Morgan is a consultant on the show which, if all goes well, *will run for five seasons*. He has said in the past that he is done with Kovacs, but the adaptation has “kind of woken it all up again”, so he might reconsider. For now, though, he is finishing a new sci-fi novel set on Mars. “It’s a response to this ludicrous, wide-eyed enthusiasm for colonising Mars that is kicking around, especially in America.” It stars “a disenchanted protagonist who is violent at the drop of a hat and doesn’t really like anybody or anything. So it’s not dissimilar in tone”.


----------



## ctg

> Although _Altered Carbon_ season 2 was never part of the plan for showrunner Laeta Kalogridis or Netflix, there are all kinds of reasons why the cyberpunk hit, which was a winner with most viewers and many critics including us, might be renewed. Although the next Richard K. Morgan book in the series might be of too large a scale to be adapted the way the first Takeshi Kovacs novel was, there are plenty of other planets in the settled worlds for the series to explore if Netflix decides to give it another run.
> 
> Joel Kinnaman, who played the lead character in _Altered Carbon_, has already signed on for another streaming series on Amazon called _Hanna_, but the beauty of the concept behind the show, in which people's consciousnesses are downloaded into new bodies, is that Takeshi Kovacs could be re-cast without upsetting the internal logic of the story. Other supposedly dead characters could similarly be resurrected in new 'sleeves.'
> 
> Kalogridis confirmed to EW in a recent interview that if _Altered Carbon_ were to be renewed, everything could change. "We want to do something surprising with the second season that is not in the same place with the same people," she says. "I think the universe of these books gives you more latitude... Richard [K. Morgan] and I have a plan, I don’t know how people will feel about the plan, but we do have one!"
> 
> Perhaps _Altered Carbon_ season 2 would have Kovacs searching for his long lost love, Quellcrist Falconer, who viewers learn might have a surviving cortical stack out there waiting to be re-sleeved. "The stuff we created in the first season that conflated some elements from the third book — like bring Quell (Renee Elise Goldsberry) into the story earlier — that also altered the structure significantly," admits Kalogridis. "So now you have this character who wasn’t in the second book and I hope if we’ve done our job people will be very invested in this love story."


 Altered Carbon showrunner talks season 2 possibilities

Harlan's world is almost confirmed to be in the next one.


----------



## Lucien21

The new book is called "Thin Air"

Good reads has it as set in the Black Man universe (Thirteen for US readers)  Thin Air by Richard K. Morgan


----------



## Cli-Fi

I just finished episode 4. I'm hooked.


----------



## Jeffbert

episode 7: in the middle of this episode there is a scene that somehow seems familiar: 



Spoiler



There is a group of people/fighters in the middle of an outcropping of rocks. A woman is the leader, & she challenges two subordinates to try to kill her. I cannot recall where or when, but this really seems familiar!


----------



## Jeffbert

I just finished the season, & now wonder if there will be a second season, as this adventure has closure / cloture? 


Vladd67 said:


> The show runner on nudity.
> https://io9.gizmodo.com/altered-carbons-showrunner-talks-the-shows-high-nudity-1822910712


I think the argument for the nudity, especially the FFN, is weak because not only do the characters see those views, but the viewers also see the same views. In other shows, the nudity is discrete, though it is obvious, the viewer is not seeing the same things as the characters see. In other words, do any but the characters need to see the other characters' naughty parts?


----------



## ctg

Jeffbert said:


> In other words, do any but the characters need to see the other characters' naughty parts?



Yes. The sex scenes with Miriam in the book 1 was crucial. Netflix really didn't show much. In fact they showed nothing at all, while in the book those two scenes are 'so steamy'


----------



## Jeffbert

O.k., so they are steamy. But do the viewers really need to see their naughty parts? Why must the camera show them?


----------



## ctg

Jeffbert said:


> But do the viewers really need to see their naughty parts? Why must the camera show them?



I don't think they need to go to Rome (series) style hanky panky in the small screen. It might have sold the series to someone, but for wrong reasons. Kovacs began his investigation with sex fuelled scene with Miriam dressed in very showing tennis costume. Later on the investigation went into the red light district and at the end to the Head in the Clouds. 

The first book really is a journey into the forbidden realm, while the next two ones move away from the idea. But, still, if you read them you'll see that they have a few crucial sex scenes, which also explore Kovacs love life. A much of that is fairly removed and cut out from the televised series. 

Kovacs doesn't really miss his lover at any point on TV, while in the books it's a really big thing for him.


----------



## Jeffbert

ok., thanks.


----------



## Ninjastarfury

I didn't realise this was based on a book. I've just got round to watching the first episode and it's quite intriguing.


----------



## Toby Frost

Well, I'm two episodes in and I'm not really taken with it. The ideas are interesting and some of the secondary things are entertaining (the hotel, especially), but I don't think it does the whole futuristic-detective thing very well. The two leads aren't terribly interesting and Kovacs seems to mumble a lot. I'll stick with it but it's not gripping me all that much.


----------



## Anthoney

It has some problems but the concept was interesting.  I read the book afterwards.  In my opinion this is one the the rare times where the TV show is better than the book.


----------



## Dave

The mumbling was also a problem for me too. I find mumbling in a lot of TV programmes though. There was a mass letter writing campaign to the BBC about one programme (it may have been _Poldark_.)

It helped with the plot that I had read the first book, (but not so much when they began adding in parts of the second book.)


----------



## Toby Frost

I remember there being a lot of complaints about _SSGB_ being very hard to hear. I wonder if a particular style of sound mixing became briefly fashionable for tough noir stories.

On which subject, I am naturally inclined to like both cyberpunk and noir, and yet I don't warm to this one much. Neither Kovacs (is that his surname?) or Ortega seem very interesting: it's as if neither is quite awake.


----------



## Jeffbert

Dave said:


> The mumbling was also a problem for me too. I find mumbling in a lot of TV programmes though. There was a mass letter writing campaign to the BBC about one programme (it may have been _Poldark_.)
> 
> It helped with the plot that I had read the first book, (but not so much when they began adding in parts of the second book.)


i USE CLOSED CAPTIONS BY DEFAULT. But yes, mumbling is a bit annoying.


----------



## Toby Frost

Well, it's interesting, and entertaining, but it could be better. I can't quite decide what I don't like: I think it's the two leads, who seem to alternate between enraged and brooding, and not a lot else. I'm going to continue with it, though, as the good greatly outweighs the bad.

I find the secondary characters much more interesting than the primary ones: obviously Poe, but also the older cop (the Muslim guy who looks like a jazz musician), and the former army medic. Whoever plays the bearded dead body/neo-Nazi/grandmother/hitman really deserves credit too. 

Am I right in thinking that the camp/sinister fight organiser used to be Max Headroom?


----------



## ctg

Toby Frost said:


> Am I right in thinking that the camp/sinister fight organiser used to be Max Headroom?



You're not completely wrong.


----------



## Toby Frost

That's very apt! For a moment I wondered if it was a crazed Bill Nighy.


----------



## ctg

Toby Frost said:


> That's very apt! For a moment I wondered if it was a crazed Bill Nighy.



You will meet a similar character in the next season. In the first book, you get much better fight and description for Kovacs sleeve in the arena. Also you get his narrative on the arena guy and how he is connected to the whole Head-in-the-Clouds business. The basic concept however is that if you get in the wrong side and you don't end in the cloud ship, you go arena to fight against custom gladiator sleeves. Kovacs uses the Sunbeam weapon first time in there to melt bad guys stacks to slag. It's his way of solving the coming-back-in-new-sleeve problem with a permadeath.


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## Toby Frost

Well, there's just been some cheesy-but-entertaining katana stuff, so that cyberpunk box is properly ticked! I've just bought Black Man to read, as I'm impressed by Morgan's world building and his two-nations USA sounds quite interesting (and feasible).


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## Jeffbert

I just gave the whole season a 2nd watch, as my brother came for one last visit before moving to Texas. I think I noticed a few things that may have slipped past me the first time; though I cannot say what.


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## Toby Frost

This certainly picked up, and I'd give it a solid 7 and a half out of 10. The last episode was basically one huge fight, but pretty entertaining for it. I was sorry that my favourite character died. Overall, I thought it was at its best when it moved away from standard cyberpunk and became weirder.

I'm about 2/3 through _Black Man_, and I think it's very good indeed.


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## ctg

Toby Frost said:


> Overall, I thought it was at its best when it moved away from standard cyberpunk and became weirder.



I would have never classified it as standard cyberpunk but as a science fiction with cyberpunk elements. It goes far beyond what Gibson, Bruce Sterling, Tom Dowd, Jordan K Weisman or others wrote back in the eighties, or nineties.


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## Anthoney

Netflix has renewed Altered Carbon for a second seasons.

‘Altered Carbon’ Renewed for Season 2 at Netflix With Anthony Mackie in Lead Role


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## Bugg

The second book, Broken Angels, was my favourite of the trilogy so fingers crossed for season 2


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## ctg

> Netflix has announced that it will be producing an anime feature of its live-action sci-fi series _Altered Carbon_. The anime will come from animation studio Anima. Dai Soto (_Cowboy Bebop_) and Tsukasa Kondo will server as writers. Netflix made the announcement during an event in Singapore and also unveiled four other anime series including one for _Pacific Rim_.
> 
> There are no plot details available for the _Altered Carbon_ anime yet but the Netflix release indicates that the feature will "explore new elements of the story mythology."
> 
> The presence of the anime will not have any bearing on the live-action series. _Altered Carbon_ season 2 is still in production and on its way with Anthony Mackie in the lead.


 Altered Carbon and Pacific Rim anime picked up at Netflix


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## Vertigo

So I've finally got around to watching the Netflix adaptation of Altered Carbon (though I've still got the last two episodes to watch) and I'm not quite sure what to think. As a piece of noir SF it's really very good but as an adaptation of Altered Carbon it's rubbish; it might be based on it but only very very loosely. For example in the book the Envoys are the elite (and feared) corps of the Protectorate, they are absolutely not rebels in fact it probably would have been the envoys fighting the rebels, so for the book they had to invent a completely new elite corps - 'CTAC' or however they spell it. Falconer died long before Kovacs was even born so the entire rebellion sub plot including the romance with Quellcrist Falconer and even Kovacs' sister is completely new. Also whilst the book is definitely quite dark I never got any impression of the permanently dark Blade Runner style lowest levels of the city.

So taken alone it's a good atmospheric piece of SF (though less mumbling would have been nice) but the one thing it is not is an adaptation of Altered Carbon which I would still like to see!


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## Anthoney

Vertigo said:


> as an adaptation of Altered Carbon it's rubbish



For me this was one of the rare examples of a TV being better than the book.  The book tells us the Envoys are elite bad asses then does a really poor job of convincing me.  The TV show added in many little nuances that helped make that assertion seem true.  Right at the start as he's being awoke because of his training he was able more quickly than the techs expect.  I felt the book kept telling us things that it failed to show us.  Most of the changes made seemed to be done in an attempt to show us things we were told and not shown in the book.

Maybe it's because I found the writing style hectic and cramped but I found the TV show a much more palatable version of the story.


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## Vertigo

Anthoney said:


> For me this was one of the rare examples of a TV being better than the book.  The book tells us the Envoys are elite bad asses then does a really poor job of convincing me.  The TV show added in many little nuances that helped make that assertion seem true.  Right at the start as he's being awoke because of his training he was able more quickly than the techs expect.  I felt the book kept telling us things that it failed to show us.  Most of the changes made seemed to be done in an attempt to show us things we were told and not shown in the book.
> 
> Maybe it's because I found the writing style hectic and cramped but I found the TV show a much more palatable version of the story.


As I said I think it was good but just not the same story as the book, so impossible for me to compare them.


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## ctg

Vertigo said:


> Also whilst the book is definitely quite dark I never got any impression of the permanently dark Blade Runner style lowest levels of the city.



True a lot of that stuff was removed from the TV adaption. Including my favourite gun dealers.


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## Boaz

I did not read the book.... but finished the show last night.

Parts of the show were strong... the sets, the lighting, the look of Kovacs (old and new), the minimal explanations of terminology (I like trying to pick it up on my own... the story seems more realistic and less expository), the portrayals of Poe, Bancroft, Ortega, and maybe it's strongest point was that the show wrapped up a story in a season... instead of leaving me hanging.

Parts were weak... the portrayals of Falconer, Ghostwalker, and Lizzie, the lack of a solid ending (20 minutes of explanation?!?!... that's bad writing and direction), and was I supposed to identify with Kovacs?  I did not until the destruction of the envoys was revealed.  Was I supposed to identify with Ortega? Foul mouthed women don't really endear themselves to me. Falconer?  They need an actress with a personality.  Lizzie?  Ditto.  Elliot, the ex-marine, generated sympathy... but he is the forgotten sidekick with little screen time.  

Ortega's mother and Ortega's partner, Samir, were the most sympathetic characters.

It occurs to me that the sleeve changing ability will allow the show to continue even if they lose Kinnaman.


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## ctg

Boaz said:


> Was I supposed to identify with Ortega? Foul mouthed women don't really endear themselves to me.



If you had read the book, you would know that the sleeve Kovacs was occupying was Ortega's partner and her lover. He got in a money trouble and the only he could pay his debt was to rent his sleeve to Bancroft's. It was their idea to use his body, because they'd already investigated Bancroft suicide twice, before mr immortal got fed up and he was fed the lie that he's should hire an Envoy to investigate his death. So yeah, you were supposed to identify with her.


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## Boaz

@ctg Thanks.  Yeah, I got it that Kovacs' sleeve was Ortega's former partner/lover, Ryker.  Hearing f-bombs from a woman's mouth is unattractive to me.


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## Boaz

Don't get me wrong... I disliked it so much that I watched the entire show... and immediately checked to see if there would be a second season. (If I could do the roll eyes emoji, I would.)  I thought Ortega's character was well done.  I don't have to like the character to appreciate the character.


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## ctg

Boaz said:


> (If I could do the roll eyes emoji, I would.)



You could always try one of these


Spoiler














Boaz said:


> I don't have to like the character to appreciate the character.



Of course you don't have to. I got your points and I accepted them.


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## Boaz

Boaz said:


> I don't have to like the character to appreciate the character.


I didn't mean it childishly... but it sure looks that way when I reread it.

Love that McGonagall pic.  My all time favorite teacher was my high school German teacher... she did not accept anything less than one hundred percent from us in all things.  She was tough.... but woe to anyone who attacked her students....


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## REBerg

Two thumbs up for this show!
I just finished the first season and was glad to be reassured that a second is coming, albeit with an altered cast. I'm expecting a Rick Deckard sleeve to show up.


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## ctg

> Netflix's Emmy-nominated sci-fi saga _Altered Carbon_ is returning for a second season, two years after the first batch of episodes. You won't have to wait much longer to delve back into its dystopian cyberpunk world, as season two hits Netflix February 27th.











						Sci-fi series 'Altered Carbon' returns to Netflix on February 27th
					

Anthony Mackie is taking over the lead role for the eight-episode second season.




					www.engadget.com


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## Jeffbert

Oh, goody; I can hardly wait!


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## REBerg




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## ctg

What just happened? Spectres?


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## REBerg

Leftovers?


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## ctg

REBerg said:


> Leftovers?



No. I think the producers said that they had five year plan, and they only have three books, so they'll have to up to game somehow. I always wished that Mr Morgan would have done another book in Earth, but it never got done. If the Broken Furies is the finishing story, then we have to wait a couple of seasons before they end up seeing the aliens.


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## Elckerlyc

I expect setting and characters to be different from season one. No matter, as long it's as good.
But I wouldn't have complained if was more of a continuation of the story from season one.


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## ctg

Oh, oh, oh... scratch everything. We are going to Harlan's World. But it's not Broken Angels storyline as a lot of it was shown in last time. Also the Hotel didn't follow Mr Kovacs.


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## ctg

Eight episodes. It's out today.


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## Ashley R

We've just subscribed to Netflix and Altered Carbon was the second show we decided to dive into.

Now finished season one and was totally blown away. No it isn't totally faithful to the books, but it makes up it in so many different ways that I actually prefer this adaptation.

Looking forward to finishing season two.


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## Anthoney

Ashley R said:


> I actually prefer this adaptation.



 Me too!  At least I prefer the first season to the first book.  I haven't finished season 2 yet.


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## Jeffbert

Binge watched s2 in 2 days. A mere 8 episodes compared to 10 in s1. Intense, but I had to stop at midnight Thursday, after just 3. Started at 7 last night. 

Highly recommended!


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## ctg

Superb second season! I took my time to watch it. Not because I didn't like it. Quite the opposite, I love it, and I find it interesting that they decided again to twist the story. The original one is quite a bit different, but in the heart of it, it's another romance that was wrapped in chrome and blood, and then boiled hard. Thing is, the second season is easier to understand and it brings it almost to same conclusion as the book, even if the ending is super twisted. All you need to remember is that everything is connected. All you see has a meaning and a place in the story.

It was a right choice to switch the main actor as well. The sleeving technology allowed them to drop in another high class actor to really pull together the Kovacs story. But more curious choice was the bring back Poe and give him another hotel. The only thing that is not explained is how he survived the aftermath and how Kovacs stored/recruited him for the mission. Not that it really matters as Poe's presence made the story whole. 

It is interesting that the AI, meaning our creation and not something that was borrowed from the Elders, is so powerful and yet, at the same time, so fragile. In Morgan's world AI's are not omnipotent. They are not gods even if they do godly things. And they have an ending as nothing can last forever. The real death is real, and in the second season the real death is only magnified, while at the background once again Meth's hold the strings.

You might start hating immortals while you're watching. Thing is, not all of them are bad. In Morgan's world the Protectorate is the fascist Authority that hovers over everything and everyone. Nobody can escape its rule, yet there is nothing they can really do against the alien technology. It is just so much more powerful than anything the humanity has managed to put together. 

Eight episodes were short, but to be honest I don't think they needed anything else to wrap the package. The ending also leaves an opening for the third season. I wonder when they are going to announce it?


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## ctg

Altered Carbon - Resleeved is a very interesting project that has been penned by Cowboy Bepop's creator. I had not idea that there was more AC coming. You should be pleased that there's no nudity. Only violence and a hard-boiled story that goes more into Kovacs Japanese origins than anything Morgan has produced before. You don't even have to have seen the series before as the producers has thought everything. 

It is a glorious miniseries that is set before the first season and it goes more into the role of Kovacs being an envoy than see in the Live Action. To be honest, whenever Kovacs is sleeved he ends up in really bad situations and solving cases that others would be frightened to take on. Curiously this version however doesn't show Kovacs as romantic. He doesn't even remember the previous relationships and losses. It is still however very nice piece for the AC fans.


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## Dave

I also enjoyed the second season more than the first. Am I right in thinking that this completes the three books (I never read the third book and it now seems like it might have been the best of the trilogy?)



ctg said:


> The ending also leaves an opening for the third season. I wonder when they are going to announce it?


Without material from books to base it upon, the writers will have a difficult task to make the standard the same level.


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## ctg

Dave said:


> Am I right in thinking that this completes the three books (I never read the third book and it now seems like it might have been the best of the trilogy?)



It's not complete. Mr Morgan left there opening for more. In fact, there were things in this series that appear in the third book, like the Dig, and the third book tells more about Kovacs relationship with the Authorities than before. It explores the Angels and their ship, while it partially happens in space. But if you look at this series, it can be easily extended to five series, giving a chance to expand Kovac's universe and tell those stories.


Dave said:


> Without material from books to base it upon, the writers will have a difficult task to make the standard the same level.



Not a problem. They have already diverted a great deal.


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## Rodders

I finally got on to Netflix two weeks ago. Started this last night and my first impressions are good. Special effects are great and the acting isn't too bad. 

I love the cityscapes. They look incredible and very Blade Runneresque.


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## Rodders

Finished the second series last night and was impressed. A very enjoyable series. Slick, action packed and a great soundtrack, in my opinion.

Poe was my favourite character, by far.

Is Woken Furies going to be adapted?


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## ctg

Rodders said:


> Is Woken Furies going to be adapted?



Dig is from the last book. So, yes, I believe it will be adapted, but it's going to take time before it appears because of the current pandemia.


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## ctg

> “Altered Carbon” has been canceled at Netflix, _Variety_ has confirmed.
> 
> The second season of the sci-fi series aired on the streaming service back in February, while the first season aired in 2018. An anime special titled “Resleeved,” which was set before the events of Season 1, was released in 2019.
> 
> The series was based on the novel of the same name by Richard K. Morgan. It followed the adventures of interstellar warrior Takeshi Kovacs, who was played by Joel Kinnaman in Season 1 and by Anthony Mackie in Season 2. According to an individual with knowledge of the decision, the decision to cancel the show was made due to Netflix’s traditional approach of cost versus viewership of a series.
> 
> Last week, it was announced that Netflix had pulled the plug on both “The Society” and “I’m Not Okay With This” due to budgetary issues surrounding increased health and safety costs related to the COVID-19 pandemic. Both shows had been renewed for second seasons.
> 
> “Altered Carbon” took place in a futuristic world where the human mind has been digitized and a person can transfer their consciousness from one body to the next.
> 
> Season 2 of the series also starred Renée Elise Goldsberry, Lela Loren, Simone Missick, Chris Conner, Dina Shihabi and Torben Liebrecht along with Mackie. Will Yun Lee and James Saito guest starred.
> 
> From Skydance Television, the series was executive produced by Alison Schapker, Laeta Kalogridis, James Middleton, Rose Lam, Bradley J. Fischer, James Vanderbilt, Mike Medavoy and Arnold W. Messer, alongside David Ellison, Dana Goldberg and Marcy Ross for Skydance.











						‘Altered Carbon’ Canceled After Two Seasons at Netflix
					

“Altered Carbon” has been canceled at Netflix, Variety has confirmed. The second season of the sci-fi series aired on the streaming service back in February, while the first season aire…




					variety.com


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## Rodders

That's a shame. I really enjoyed the series. 

I must confess that I appear to be one of the only people that enjoyed the second series more than the first. Maybe I missed something and need to re-watch it.


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## ctg

It's about the old thing Rodders. Cost of making the space and space-ship in the third series versus of how many people actually watched the series drove the decision. It simply wasn't successful enough. And to be honest, I don't think AMZ is going to save the product, because they've been cutting productions for same reasons.


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