# Magic might one day exist



## The_African (Oct 6, 2010)

Virtual reality machines. And don't say it wouldn't be real because even an illusion is still perceptually real. Most physicists and neuroscientists would agree that reality as we understand it is an illusion but it's still real to us.


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## chrispenycate (Oct 6, 2010)

In the form that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," I suppose. But it still isn't magic, because it is generated by known physical phenomena; even if I personally don't know them.

And I don't think either neurologists nor physicists would try and claim that what we sense as 'reality' is an illusion; only that our senses are too limited to detect more than a fraction of the occurrences they can measure, let alone the ones that have been mathematically deduced but which are, for the time being, merely hypotheses.

I'm sure that by a mixture of chemical and electrical stimulation the nervous system can be persuaded to believe a lot of non-existing stimuli; I've talked down enough people on acid to know that. I will even accept that it might well be possible to predict which brainbuttons will be pushed by which electrochemical poke. Flying like a witch on a broomstick, feeling the rushing air sweep your hair back to whip against your naked back, the hard cylinder between your knees, arriving in a conference hall with a (black?) mass of similarly skyclad aviators, all this I give you.

But it won't be magic; just technology pushed a trifle further than it is now.

A metaphysician from Deal
said, "Although I know pain isn't real,
when I sit on a pin
and it punctures my skin
I dislike what I fancy I feel.


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## The_African (Oct 7, 2010)

chrispenycate said:


> In the form that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," I suppose. But it still isn't magic, because it is generated by known physical phenomena; even if I personally don't know them.
> 
> And I don't think either neurologists nor physicists would try and claim that what we sense as 'reality' is an illusion; only that our senses are too limited to detect more than a fraction of the occurrences they can measure, let alone the ones that have been mathematically deduced but which are, for the time being, merely hypotheses.
> 
> ...



Why is pain not 'real'? Because it can be explained in materialistic terms? Again, even an illusion is still perceptually real.

And I think our intuitive understanding of reality has little to do with reality as it is. 

-We have no direct access to sensory stimuli, we have to convert sensory stimuli into electrical signals that we can make sense of which means that we have no direct access to the outside world

-The idea that we have free will must be an illusion, since the idea that neurons are the only physical entities that are capable of 'choice' is a little egocentric. Theorizing aside, neuroscience has already proven that we make 'decisions' before we become consciously aware of making them.

-The feeling of there being a central observer in 'my' brain with a constant identity is also an illusion since none of my neurons are 'me', none of them have 'my' personality, they just experience the illusion of being The_African, a fictitious narrative created by other neurons. You might say that we are the 'arrangement' of the parts we're made up of but these parts (ie. atoms) are constantly recycled, there's no way we can be the same entity we were 10 years ago. The parts we're made up of do not share a common identity, you can no more separate 'us' from them than you can a 'community' from the individuals who comprise it.

I agree it wouldn't be magic but if the people plugged into this machine weren't aware of that, it couldn't matter to them. The experience of riding a broom would feel the same regardless of whether or not it was an illusion. I wish this stuff could be invented in my lifetime, lol.


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## mosaix (Oct 7, 2010)

I agree with Chris. 

Before we can discuss the matter in depth we have to come to a common definition of 'magic'.


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## The_African (Oct 7, 2010)

mosaix said:


> I agree with Chris.
> 
> Before we can discuss the matter in depth we have to come to a common definition of 'magic'.



For the record, I am not literally claiming that magic might come to exist. I'm just pointing out that we might one day get to experience a world where magic is perceptually real.

By 'magic' I mean phenomenon that is not logically or scientifically plausible.


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## Tinsel (Oct 7, 2010)

The_African said:


> Virtual reality machines. And don't say it wouldn't be real because even an illusion is still perceptually real. Most physicists and neuroscientists would agree that reality as we understand it is an illusion but it's still real to us.



That would be fine so long as we have the choice to reject it and live closer to nature. There are some helpful things that came from technology that convert energy more effectively but some of the old things are still necessary if there is no technological solution.

I am not afraid of general technology. I have that base covered. It isn't that glorious, but yeah, the holographic stuff is on the way soon.

Oh yeah, there is one concept worth mentioning, and that is that certain things remain hidden outside of the scope of humanity and they are impersonal, so therefore it is up to an individual to reach out to them and not the other way around. What is more is that virtual reality is already common. We should be trying for reality instead!


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## Peter Graham (Oct 7, 2010)

> By 'magic' I mean phenomenon that is not logically or scientifically plausible.


 
Aren't you arguing against yourself here?  You said before:-



> We have no direct access to sensory stimuli, we have to convert sensory stimuli into electrical signals that we can make sense of which means that we have no direct access to the outside world


 
and



> since the idea that neurons are the only physical entities that are capable of 'choice' is a little egocentric.


 
So, if we can't access the outside world and we are incapable of choice, and everything is just an illusory construct, we cannot truly be said to be able to understand what is or is not "_logically or scientifically plausible_".  By your arguments, such concepts are the product of our own highly fallible internalised selves, which cannot even see the true nature of the outside world - and therefore could not begin to understand logical or scientific plausibility in anything other than an entirely capricious way.  Which is neither logical nor scientific.

But your argument has very serious limitations.  As you seem to infer (or at least agree), magic is just a term of convenience to describe things we don't yet understand.  It was ever thus.  But our internalised reasoning is still a form of understanding and is no less valid for that.  By way of example, the bees in my beehives see and understand the world very differently to me - but they can still make sense (and honey) out of it.   So can we (but not the honey bit).  The fact that what we see as a red, double decker bus might actually be a flame breathing dragon with claws of iron is virtually irrelevant.  It's what it does and how we interact with it which is important.  All we need to know is that it gets us from A to B and that - be we bee or human - if you connect with one which is moving at speed, it's curtains.

Regards,

Peter


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## soulsinging (Oct 7, 2010)

Nothing personal, but man do I hate existential philosophy based around the "all reality is an illusion" nonsense. It's a bunch of bunk, and I feel that nobody can make this argument in good faith. If this is all just some subjective illusion, why don't any of these people try to walk through a wall? Better yet, hop off the top of a building. Tell me how much of an "illusion" the landing is. They don't believe the argument they're advancing enough to actually treat reality like an illusion, so why am I supposed to be convinced by the premise that the chair I'm sitting in might actually be a rhinocerous? It's absurd and pointless as a philosophy for any sort of life choices. It doesn't matter if our senses are limited because they have to be compressed to electrical impulses. If you compress a song down to mp3 form, sure you're not hearing every tone and frequency in the original on vinyl, but does that mean that compressing a Lady Gaga song turns it into a Beatles song? Of course not. Our limited senses do not alter what a thing truly is, even if they lack the precision and sensitivity to fully grasp what a thing is in its entirety.


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## Tinsel (Oct 8, 2010)

The physical laws are explained by mathematical theory, where precision is unreachable by our technology and you have to work with continuity and irrational numbers. Modern physics is mostly about light, and the speed of light, as far as I know. Somehow that equation is used when time and space are affected or changed. 

Now virtual reality is something completely different, is it not?


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## Allanon (Oct 8, 2010)

Not to bring down the intelectual level of this conversation but......

It would be really cool if we had magic, like merlin or gandalf!!


HAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Sorry!


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## digs (Oct 8, 2010)

If Harry Potter taught me one thing, it's that magic already does exist. It's called love.

And if Harry Potter taught me two things...EXPELLIARMUS!


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## mosaix (Oct 8, 2010)

The_African said:


> By 'magic' I mean phenomenon that is not logically or scientifically plausible.



Do you mean by plausible by the scientific knowledge of the day or scientifically unplausable all together?


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## mosaix (Oct 8, 2010)

soulsinging said:


> Nothing personal, but man do I hate existential philosophy based around the "all reality is an illusion" nonsense. It's a bunch of bunk, and I feel that nobody can make this argument in good faith.



Me feelings entirely. I just wish I'd thought of the words first.


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## FeedMeTV (Oct 8, 2010)

digs said:


> If Harry Potter taught me one thing, it's that magic already does exist. It's called love.
> 
> And if Harry Potter taught me two things...EXPELLIARMUS!



Haha the only spell you will ever need!

 Sorry, please return to the intellectual discussion!


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## The_African (Oct 9, 2010)

soulsinging said:


> Nothing personal, but man do I hate existential philosophy based around the "all reality is an illusion" nonsense. It's a bunch of bunk, and I feel that nobody can make this argument in good faith. If this is all just some subjective illusion, why don't any of these people try to walk through a wall? Better yet, hop off the top of a building. Tell me how much of an "illusion" the landing is. They don't believe the argument they're advancing enough to actually treat reality like an illusion, so why am I supposed to be convinced by the premise that the chair I'm sitting in might actually be a rhinocerous? It's absurd and pointless as a philosophy for any sort of life choices. It doesn't matter if our senses are limited because they have to be compressed to electrical impulses. If you compress a song down to mp3 form, sure you're not hearing every tone and frequency in the original on vinyl, but does that mean that compressing a Lady Gaga song turns it into a Beatles song? Of course not. Our limited senses do not alter what a thing truly is, even if they lack the precision and sensitivity to fully grasp what a thing is in its entirety.



Good point, Peter and Mosaix. I'm not really in the mood for a lengthy reply but reality as we understand it is an illusion. I also dislike when people use this fact to devalue what we experience, I'm just pointing out how inconsistent it is to reject virtual reality as being 'fake' just because it's an illusion. What we feel is what matters, what we perceive is real to us.


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## Tinsel (Oct 9, 2010)

Software has evolved as layers, for example, the digital logic layer, the machine layer, the operating system layer, the application layer, the middleware layer, etc. Then there was the idea of designing the file system as a database that would somehow make a number of things easier, but I'm not sure where that is now. Anyway, virtual reality might take place on the day that a user can program in a very high level language. The highest level language is the language that we communicate with each other with, but it is far too high level to translate by an interpreter or a compiler in order to produce an application.


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## John Thiel (Dec 2, 2010)

Magic already exists as a concept--until it comes to pass that it exists, we are troubled by a concept that isn't a reality.


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