# Has Final Fantasy lost it's charm ?



## Armadillo-002 (Jun 1, 2009)

After watching screen shots & trailers of up coming FFXIII. It just occured to me that the FF hasn't got me interested anymore or more to the point it has lost it's charm & appeal. Not talking about the fact it has gone popular, but the game has lost it's appeal/ charm to me. Why? because the game has an average story plot, the characters are virtually reharshes of other characters from other series (compare Ashe to Lightning, same character model but with altered apperances & skill set, same again with Yuna to Rinoa etc), the saving graces being their goals & personalites. The mechanics & engine are changed to try & being different each time. I can be gravely wrong about my assumption. Thoughts please?. 

So after searching for games that have potential to take the mantel; here are some games & developers that have *caught* my attention (please bear in mind that I haven't actually played some of these as they went largely unnoticed by me, * indicating haven't played) : 

*Gust:* 

Alteir Iris 1,2 & 3* (all three)
Ar tonelico 1* & 2 (2 being released in North america already, date set for Europe being 05/06/2009 I think)
Mana Khemia 1 (premium comes with 33 sound track CD & mini poster) 2 (2 being released in North America this autumn I think, no release date for Europe as of yet)

*Level 5:*

Rogue Galaxy
Dark Chronicles
Dark Cloud

*Tri-ace: *

Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria
Valkyrie Profile: Lenneth*
Valkyrie Profile: Covenent of the plume*
Star Ocean: Till the end of time

*Altus: *

Shin Megumi Series*
Digital Devil saga*
Persona 1-4 (*haven't played 1-3) (4 comes with selected sound track CD)

*Vanillaware:*

Odin Sphere

If there are any other RPG games that you think are being over-looked please do mention them.


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## Sephiroth (Jun 1, 2009)

I'm reserving judgement.  Although I was hugely disappointed with XII in the end, I'm still (hugely) excited about XIII, and I don't know enough about it to criticise.  

They've never managed to match VI and VII for story, but I still hold out hope that the magic will be recreated.  We'll see.  I hope the new games at least have more of a fantastical element than XII, which was rather mundane (not to mention too short, and which felt half-finished).  

As for characters, it's their personalities that matter most, but it's fair to say that those in the later games have been less impressive.  In XII, I felt like I never got to know any of them at all...or worse, that there was very little to know.  

But I haven't given up hope for the new ones.  I'm seriously looking forward to them.


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## Karn Maeshalanadae (Jun 1, 2009)

I'd say FF has lost its charm after X. Some might argue that X-2 was alright, but I really didn't care for that one, and I'm not even all the way through XII because I got bored with it. I also didn't really like XII's battle system all that well.


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## Commonmind (Jun 3, 2009)

Has it lost its charm, or have we become more sophisticated gamers? I'm willing to bet the latter is true, for many of us.

FFVI, VII and X came at a time in many of our lives where we were more in touch with that part of ourselves which bought into the fantastical; we were more easily swept away by these sprawling JRPG epics.

But all of these games were still inherently flawed. VI with its lackluster translation, VII's story (I know, Seph is going to shoot me for saying so) was riddled with cliche's -- a quiet antagonist whose only real bad-ass moment came in the form of walking through fire and killing one of your more beloved party members. But we all painted these grander images in our minds because we experienced them at a time where we were susceptible to being immersed in just these kinds of adventures. 

Further proof of this comes from talking to different generation of gamers. As a thirty-something, FFVI was my favorite of the series -- an opinion quite a few of my peers share. Guys a few years younger tend to adore VII. X is the classic for an even younger audience. And so on.


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## ManTimeForgot (Jun 3, 2009)

I think the "we've become more sophisticated gamers" argument holds weight with people who game almost exclusively on rpgs, but that cannot possibly be true for everyone.  The fact that most people didn't _notice_ that VII was absolutely riddled with story cliche's and had completely asinine side-quests (chocobo races! Emerald/Ruby weapon... Just why exactly is the boss of the game like a million times weaker than these guys?!) and further FF's didn't break from or compounded such errors basically blows that possibility out of the water.

For me console RPGs peaked at ChronoTrigger/FF6 (those are my two Favs).  Breath of Fire is the only series that hasn't disappointed me too much with any of its installments (I haven't gotten to play the 4th one though... money hasn't been quite as loose ever since mom and dad stopped buying my games for me ).  And it was build up from there.  FF IV and V were both good games; they each had some flaws to them (I think IV less than V, but I'm chalking that up to personal taste).  And then seven was about on par with V imo.  And it just kept going downhill from there.


I have XII and have yet to complete the bloody thing.  I just won't slog through 30 minutes of monster bashing to get 1 minute of plot even if the plot is bloody brilliant with masterful graphical rendering and crisp sounds.  The battle system in XII does need work, and maybe XIII will pull it off.  But that doesn't address the fundamental problem of Plot to Combat ratio.  Combat should be seen as part of the plot (at least at times).

For Instance: In FF6 there is a scene where you fight ultros atop the rafters in the Opera House.  There is a time limit because if you fail to beat him in time he drops this anvil thing (I think) down and it ruins the opera (kills a character?).  This kind of plot/combat relation reinforces to me the importance of combat in a game.  I like consequences for failure.  I like knowing that my combat not only nets me EXP, GOLD, & LOOT but that it also has plot relevance.

Plot relevance for combat is what kills most MMOs for me.  Killing 400,000 Zorgs and bringing back 40,000 Zorg pelts to gain 4,000,000 Zeny and 35,000 Exp doesn't mean a bloody thing to me unless it just so happens that the final boss of the game is allergic to Zorg fur (and even then this game better be a comedy rpg, because otherwise that is just ridiculous).

MTF


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## Urlik (Jun 3, 2009)

ManTimeForgot said:


> Plot relevance for combat is what kills most MMOs for me. Killing 400,000 Zorgs and bringing back 40,000 Zorg pelts to gain 4,000,000 Zeny and 35,000 Exp doesn't mean a bloody thing to me unless it just so happens that the final boss of the game is allergic to Zorg fur (and even then this game better be a comedy rpg, because otherwise that is just ridiculous).


 
you've hit the nail on the head there MTF.
MMOs are all about levelling up and becoming wealthier/more powerfull than everyone else.
that is fine to a degree but what is the point when there is no story to unfold?


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## Commonmind (Jun 3, 2009)

I might further argue the number of individuals who _didn't notice_ FFVII's flaws are directly proportionate to the very outspoken vocal minority. We know they haven't taken note of the game's flaws because they tell us, constantly, how flawless of a game FFVII truly is. The problem lies in the fact that folks who see it as mediocre will very rarely speak up, either out of fear of being shunned by their immediate peers -- because, let's face it, FF fanatics are rabid at the best of times, monstrous at the worst -- or because they just don't care enough to raise their voice.

I digress.

I do reinforce the idea that as we mature so do our tastes. I don't like the same movies, wear the same clothes, read the same books or watch the same television programming that I did when I was 14, 18, 25. I suspect this is why I'm less and less compelled to invest my time in games which are still catering to and being developed for a younger demographic. 

And I agree with what you said combat relevance, but if we're being honest with ourselves combat-to-plot ratio has never been the strong suit of any major JRPG franchise. Even the old Final Fantasy titles were riddled with long periods of grinding, or hour-long walks through single dungeon screens that would have taken a fraction of that time if someone had dialed down the random encounter trigger. FFXII isn't the only culprit here -- even FFVI (my personal favorite of the franchise) suffered from some heavy handedness. 

As for MMO's, folks who play these games for their content have lost the point. The focus is community, with the game serving as a social platform. What kills MMO's for me is not being forced to collect 2000 wolf pelts for some unnappreciative NPC, but having to do so without any friends to share in the experience. However, that's not to say I would stick my nose up if they could somehow break those paradigms and bridge the gap between the distilled combat and general gameplay experience of the MMO and the one fine tuned for a single player (here's hoping The Old Republic does just that).


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## Urlik (Jun 3, 2009)

Commonmind said:


> As for MMO's, folks who play these games for their content have lost the point. The focus is community, with the game serving as a social platform. What kills MMO's for me is not being forced to collect 2000 wolf pelts for some unnappreciative NPC, but having to do so without any friends to share in the experience. However, that's not to say I would stick my nose up if they could somehow break those paradigms and bridge the gap between the distilled combat and general gameplay experience of the MMO and the one fine tuned for a single player (here's hoping The Old Republic does just that).


 
I agree. RPGs should take a leaf out of the FPS book and have a co-operative campaign. there is nothing better than sharing the experience of playing a game with a friend, it would just be nice if the RPG makers realised this


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## Saeltari (Jun 3, 2009)

I have to fall completely the other way. And to answer the question yes, it lost its charm when it went multiplayer and killed its single player. I hope they never give up the single player rpg's because the mmo's I have tried to play I found nothing more than hugely irritating due to the idiot factor that seemed to permeate the games players. If anybody knows the most recent ff single player, non online, game I'd appreciate the heads up. I wouldn't mind giving that a shot again.


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## Commonmind (Jun 3, 2009)

Urlik said:


> I agree. RPGs should take a leaf out of the FPS book and have a co-operative campaign. there is nothing better than sharing the experience of playing a game with a friend, it would just be nice if the RPG makers realised this



They did, once upon a time. Some of the most prolific PC RPG's had cooperative play. The only title in recent memory to offer this was Neverwinter Nights 2, and it seems more and more developers are moving away from building these experiences. So, unfortunately for us, that development strategy is heading in the opposite, and wrong, direction.


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## ManTimeForgot (Jun 4, 2009)

The closest thing to a cooperative quest MMO is Guild Wars (I like Guild Wars and am waiting somewhat patiently for Guild Wars II)...

MTF


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## Sephiroth (Jun 9, 2009)

Commonmind said:


> Has it lost its charm, or have we become more sophisticated gamers? I'm willing to bet the latter is true, for many of us.



Agreed.  And it's good to see you back, man!  



> FFVI, VII and X came at a time in many of our lives where we were more in touch with that part of ourselves which bought into the fantastical; we were more easily swept away by these sprawling JRPG epics.


I was swept away?  _Really? _ Heh...



> But all of these games were still inherently flawed. VI with its lackluster translation, VII's story (I know, Seph is going to shoot me for saying so) was riddled with cliche's -- a quiet antagonist whose only real bad-ass moment came in the form of walking through fire and killing one of your more beloved party members. But we all painted these grander images in our minds because we experienced them at a time where we were susceptible to being immersed in just these kinds of adventures.


*draws sidearm*

^_^

Nah, but seriously, you do have a point.  When you say we painted grander images in our minds, I think you hit the nail on the head.  What a great game does for me is allow my imagination to build upon the reality of the content provided as a foundation, and the combination of the two becomes something altogether _more_.  When I played VII, I had never seen anything like it before, and the experience of playing it for 2-3 days straight (without breaks other than for eating/sleeping), at 17 years old, is something I shall forever cherish.  Even now, just listening to Uematsu's score brings back all the memories and emotions...

I still think the antagonist (yours truly... ;p) is one of the best things about the game.  The very fact that he is not your traditional 'badass' is what made him interesting, to me.  His story is a tragedy, and he is also a victim.  One of the things I really like about the story in VII is the subtletly of the way the true antagonist -- Jenova -- is dealt with.  The true power and nature of Jenova is only hinted at, but to me, that only makes her...(it?)...all the more ominous and threatening.  

In the same way, Sephiroth's 'quietness', coupled with his immense power (which is hinted at from early on), makes him seem a looming threat from the moment you leave Midgar -- mysterious, and deadly.  

Anyway, I'll shut up, now.  



ManTimeForgot said:


> I think the "we've become more sophisticated gamers" argument holds weight with people who game almost exclusively on rpgs, but that cannot possibly be true for everyone.  The fact that most people didn't _notice_ that VII was absolutely riddled with story cliche's and had completely asinine side-quests (chocobo races! Emerald/Ruby weapon... Just why exactly is the boss of the game like a million times weaker than these guys?!) and further FF's didn't break from or compounded such errors basically blows that possibility out of the water.



I don't think it's a case of not _noticing _clichés.  One man's archetype is another's stereotype.  IMO, FFVII approached its storytelling with both charm and a sense of fun, and while it may contain some clichés, I think the whole is dramatic, coherent and pathetic.  I don't feel that any of the subsequent titles have managed to achieve this.  FFX's story felt as if it had the potential, but it crumbled as it went on, and ended up a disaster.  As for XII, don't even get me started....... ;p

And hey, I enjoyed racing my chocobos!  

I, too, have lamented the relative weakness of end bosses when compared to the optional 'superbosses', but at the end of the day, the battle system is one of the things I enjoy most about FF games, and I relish the challenge of attempting to beat Emerald/Ruby/Omega Weapon, Ozma, the Dark Aeons & Penance, etc.  (Oh, and Yiazmat, Ultima and Omega Mk. XII, of course.  In XII, that was the only real satisfaction I got from playing the game...)

But not everyone likes the hours and hours of grinding required to steel your characters for the challenge, and yet anyone who starts the game wants to be able to complete the story portion, so I understand why they have to make the end bosses so weak, even if I don't like it.


So, part of me agrees with you about plot-to-combat _ratio_, and part doesn't, since combat is a major reason why I play these games.  I do agree about plot-to-combat _relevance_, but it seems to me that games would need an awful lot of plot to balance out the ratio.  However, if grinding is not your thing, you should be able to progress through the story without having to spend hours between each story section, so I get what you mean.  We each play differently, I suppose.





Saeltari, the last single-player FF game was FFXII for PS2 (although I would recommend X -- for the same console -- over that one).  


As for co-operative play...has anyone played FFXI?  (I haven't, but I notice that XIV is due out next year, and is also a MMO.)


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## Cayal (Jun 11, 2009)

I will admit I have lost interest in the Final Fantasy franchise. I am admittedly more interested in Versus then XIII more because it looks like a darker story but I haven't been as keen on it as I have been in previous Final Fantasies.

Though it does not mean I will not play them both. I will, that's for sure. But my preference now is on Uncharted, God of War 3 etc.


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## Commonmind (Jun 17, 2009)

> Agreed.  And it's good to see you back, man!



Glad to be home 

And having just started replaying FFVII (of the digital download persuasion; I'm starting to like this PS3/PSP transfer gimmick!) I can say I'm starting to agree with some of your assessments (especially that whole "looming" theme)-- though we'll see how far I come around in another 20-30 hours


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## Sephiroth (Jun 17, 2009)

I know how you feel, I had a pretty long break from here, too (due to various life circumstances, etc)...but the place isn't the same without ya, dude.  



Commonmind said:


> And having just started replaying FFVII (of the digital download persuasion; I'm starting to like this PS3/PSP transfer gimmick!) I can say I'm starting to agree with some of your assessments (especially that whole "looming" theme)-- though we'll see how far I come around in another 20-30 hours



Hey, any distance at all is _something!_ 

As for me, I would never try to claim the story is perfect (_honest_... ;p), but as I said above, I think the whole hangs together well, despite whatever flaws there are.  IMO, it transcends the flaws.  I always felt like each character had a story I cared about, and that those stories fitted in well with the overarching plot (both the Shinra/environmental and Jenova/Sephiroth antagonist threads).  Everything came together well as the story progressed, and crucially, what I was doing at the end of the game felt relevant, I felt as if I had been led there from the very beginning.  

(Contrast this with what I was doing at the end of IX... or the great Yunalesca exposition -- info-dump? -- near the end of X...)

I think the pacing is good.  I also think it gives the players a lot of credit, in that it leaves us to fill in the blanks ourselves, rather than trying to dictate every single little detail (particularly with the Jenova thread...).  

And I can forgive its quirkiness in places, or an element of dramatic cliché.  It's not high literature, after all.  




I saw it was available on PSN, but I still have my original copy, and it works on my PS3.  I played the start again recently, but I'd like to get a memory card adapter so that I can have a look at my old savegames...


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## Commonmind (Jun 18, 2009)

I have my original as well, but being able to play it on the portable is an absolute must for me at the moment. One of the reasons I've been gone has been due to my staying at the hospital for extended periods of time while my son recovers from his numerous surgeries and progressively complicated state of health. The DS and the PSP have been absolute lifesavers in this regard. I had no idea I liked either of the systems as much as I do, until finally giving them some time to rest in my palms.

Funny; I've bought every iteration of the hardware, but have only started playing them here recently. 

And I empathize, where VII's ending is concerned. Despite my grumbling there was cohesion, solid pacing, a plot that arced in some semblance of a geometrical shape -- rather than getting lost in jutting spikes and sagging dips that made very little sense. I'm not even sure what happened at the end of IX, I just know that the emotional bit grabbed me, the ending seen with the cowl being thrown off (keeping it vague here so I don't spoil it for someone). And X...whew. 

There, we can agree. When at the climax and subsequent finale I was facing off against an enemy that I'd been aligning myself against throughout the entirety of game, I felt like what I was doing had some meaning and what happened afterward would be a consequence I was prepared for, was familiar with, had some context. I've said this in other threads, but I often feel SE loses touch with its audience as it nears the end of its titles; they seem to trip over allegory and metaphor, get lost in grandiose plot twists that, while entirely predictable, ironically make very little sense within the frame of the story. I generally start most FF titles with enthusiasm, and by the end of the game that usually changes to an overwhelming sense of ambivalence.


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## Cayal (Jun 18, 2009)

I bought FFVII on the PSN...I actually think everyone with a PS3 did that, lol. It was a massive seller.
More proof how much a remake would sell.

------------------------

I didn't understand the ending of Final Fantasy X. I also don't get the lack of love for FFXII. It was excellent.


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## Commonmind (Jun 18, 2009)

I honestly believe that PSN release was a primer, a gauge for SE to consider whether or not a remake would be profitable.

And I've professed my love for XII many times over. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Even the MMO-inspired battle-system. I spent hours running around, building up chains to grab the rare mobs and loot, and it was the first game in a while where I actually walked into a cave, got my face boiled off by a high level enemy, and said, "well, I think I need to level up some more," with a smile on my face. Something I haven't experienced since some of the old DQ titles.

My only real complaint, at this point in time (I'm sure I'll remember others later) was that while I enjoyed the story, and the attempt at a larger, politically driven story, I felt the final encounters of the game rolled back into cliche a bit, like SE lost their nerve and decided adding multi-tentacled mutations of the main antagonists was the only acceptable outcome (compared to actually thinking about things more constructively -- perhaps subverting the cliche a bit with a final battle that was on a larger scale).


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## creativeflow20 (Jun 18, 2009)

you have a point but i love the feel/look of versus. i love final fantaxy X but for me, the second one was atrocious ( i love payne though). just really crap gameplay for me.


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## Commonmind (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm almost hoping that versus breaks some major boundaries and becomes the paradigm shift for the franchise. I would really love to see it head into a different direction. One of the reasons we were given turn-based systems was due to the constraints of the technology at the times these games were first developed. I could see, now that the technology has caught up, a fluid system which is far more action-oriented, but which still allowed some strategy to be involved -- I'm thinking along the lines of the original Valkyrie Profile maybe, something that blends the controller as an interface for spells, attacks, items, etc., rather than bogging down the action with menus and tedious selections.

Some PC RPG's do this effectively, with a system of hotkeys that govern actions, allowing you to switch to other characters seamlessly (think Dragon Age, if anyone has seen the battle system they have developed), all while the pace of the battle is continuously moving forward.

Ranting? I think I am a bit...maybe tired...


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## Sephiroth (Jun 20, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your medical issues, CM.  I wish your son a full and speedy recovery.    


I haven't ever had a reason to get into the whole handheld thing; I've never actually owned one, though I've played on my friends' many times.  

It seems that our views on FFVII are not so far apart.  Perhaps you're just more prone to grumbling than I am, since VII is one game I'm willing to forgive almost anything.  Then again, I suppose my point is that it _earns _that forgiveness...

I agree with you that SE need to sort out their endings.  As I've said, I don't feel there's a single game after VII that has a decent climax/finale.  


I didn't find XII to be excellent, Cayal.  I enjoyed playing it, mainly for the battles (I _love _getting pwned by high-level enemies, then levelling up and going back to said cave for some payback...and the mob hunts and other optional bosses were cool...), but I thought the story was very poor.  

I appreciate that the attempt to go with a different style of story was a bold idea, but I feel like it fell flat on its face.  Lack of characterisation was a major issue for me (not even poor characterisation, just the complete absence of it, IMO).  I still don't know who Vaan is -- he is utterly bland, and I couldn't identify with him at all.  Same goes for Penelo; and the others are, in the main, equally two-dimensional.  Balthier, and to a lesser extent Fran, are not quite as bad, but Ashe and Basch are pure cardboard.  

Added to that, I felt that while the idea to attempt a grander political story was a good one, it was never realised.  To me, the story felt wafer-thin, not to mention incomplete -- there was very little _of _it (which lends support to MTF's comment about plot-to-combat ratio, I suppose), and it seemed to end _way _too soon.  

Also, it couldn't make up its mind whether to go with the more 'mundane' political theme or revert to the fantastical.  The 'fantasy' element (Giruvegan, Mist, etc...) felt tacked on, and I had no real inkling of why these things existed in the world...why, indeed, _magic _existed...  Contrast that with VII, where the materia system ties in perfectly with the story's explanation of the physics/metaphysics of the world...

And one major and one minor niggle with the battle rewards:

Minor: what's the point in being given the most powerful sword in the game once you've already beaten _everything? _ Upon whom do I use it, then?  

Major: the Zodiac Spear.  Either you randomly opt NOT to open a certain chest early in the game (I mean, come on, who goes around _not _opening chests?!), or else you are given a _ridiculously _minuscule chance of getting it as random loot in the Henne Mines.  The probabilities on some of the best random loot were way too punishing.  I'd rather they made it non-random and introduced some element of _skill _to getting it... 

Since I don't play with walkthroughs until I've beaten the game and want to see what I missed, I had no chance to get it.  And it's not like I want to play the game again just for _that_...

Those are my main issues with XII.  Overall, it was a pretty big let-down for me, despite quite liking the new battle system.  



As for the remake of VII, I'm still not convinced that I want it.  If they didn't change anything, would there be any point?  And if they _did_, would I like what they had done, or would I consider it sacrilege?  

^_^

I'm definitely excited about _Versus_, though...despite the fact that I still know very little about it.  Hopefully it will be the long-awaited game that breathes new life into the franchise.......

...assuming XIII doesn't.  I'm still hopeful, as always, that _it _will be awesome, too.


Part of me would be sorry to see the turn-based system go, but part of me would love to see something more fluid take its place -- as long as the strategic element wasn't lost in the transition.


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## Commonmind (Jun 20, 2009)

I appreciate that Seph. 

And grumbler? Guilty as charged. I get even grumpier as the years go by too -- turning into a cliche, and wondering why I can't seem to hedge all the strange change in behavior; I can't stand contemporary music (although, really, who can? I'm not the only one here, and I'm betting that isn't the senility talking), I walk into most clothing boutiques with the taste of bile in my mouth -- wondering what the hell in the place is going to look relevant on me, despite how relevant the overpriced crap hanging on the racks might be. I'm much more averse to adventures; I rarely leave the house unless I'm coaxed out with the promise of rewards, and the idea of riding a roller-coaster seems suddenly risky. I buy only one type of shoes, although I own several pairs of said footwear, and if I had my way I'd wear a t-shirt that said (in a polite tone of voice), "Beware precocious children: Conversation reminds me the use of blunt objects and cold storage are mutually inclusive." 

Oh, and for some strange reason, it's harder to pee. 

The Zodiac Spear thing, how frustrating. And walking around that endless maze of a dungeon for hours, hunting down some of the better items in the game, only to realize how fruitless the efforts were, was not high on my list of memorable past-times. 

As for the FFVII redux, you should read the article 1up wrote on the very same subject several weeks ago (I believe it was either 1up or IGN, and unfortunately I'm too scatterbrained to find it at the moment), who said very much the same thing, further detailing how some of the games quirkiness and charm simply wouldn't translate well in a more (visually) detailed environment. I tend to agree with this somewhat -- some things are more forgivable...scratch that, some things are more enjoyable when the imagery is disproprtionate or somewhat comical.


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## Sephiroth (Jun 28, 2009)

Well, bear in mind I only said I don't grumble _about FVII_.  

I wouldn't want you to get the wrong idea about me, since I'm a right cantankerous barsteward the rest of the time.  As my comments on FFXII probably demonstrate. And hey, at least you go into clothing boutiques.  I'm not sure I've ever been in any place that could be described as a 'boutique' -- that all sounds a bit up-market for little old moi.  *grins*

Oh, and don't even get me started on contemporary music.  ;p

And I had to laugh at your comment about the shoes.  Let's just say _snap_, and leave it at that.  ^_^


You mean the Pharos?  Yeah, that lent a less enjoyable meaning to the term 'grinding', IMO.  Often I enjoy what people call grinding, but that place felt like an effort.  

I'm not sure if I found the article you alluded to or not.  I found a short piece on IGN about 'five necessary remakes', where FFVII is the first mentioned, and the major points mentioned are (1) graphics/art direction -- how would it be dealt with? and (2) battle system -- would the old turn-based system be acceptable to today's audience?

They say the narrative needs no changes, and I agree with that, but they would have to be very careful.  The dialogue would surely change (it would have to, I think...), and wouldn't that risk changing the narrative?  Not the broad shape of it, perhaps, but the subtler details?  

It could be a triumph, I suppose, but it might equally be a disaster, and that's what worries me.  

We live in an age, however, when the classics are seldom left alone.


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## Altrion (Jul 3, 2009)

For me, every since FFVIII I haven't really had any interest in the FF-series.  Almost all of the games I-VIII have this charm about them that make them playable, even with the lack of graphics that came with the earlier games.

It was like they focused on the story and game play back then.  They made it enjoyable.  They made us WANT to play the game for as long as humanly (and inhumanly) possible.  But now it is like, the FF-series has fallen onto the graphics bandwagon just like everyone else.  All they want to do is try to shock us with stunning graphics, spending all of their time on making it more shiny and less time making us WANT to be immersed.

Not only does the game-play seem to get shorter, the more amazing the graphics become.  But that originality that lured us to play these crazy games in the first place, is slowly slipping away and being replaced with mediocrity.

You have to ask yourself really.  When did "Good Enough" suddenly become good enough?  :\


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## Noah Phoenix (Jul 8, 2009)

Unfortunatley, the major factor in whether or not they would remake FFVII will be money. The fact that original has done better than even SquareEnix predicted on the very-quickly-and-worryingly-catching-up-with-XboxLive-PSN, I fear that whether or not the art direction will be a problem or not could well be a moot point.

The look and feel of the game was what made it what it was, if it was made today it would simply fade into the background as just another grinding JRPG, IMO.


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## Cayal (Jul 8, 2009)

You know what really surprised me about Final Fantasy VII, after playing it many times over the past decade or so I just realised this, and the game being 3 discs...there are no loading times at all.


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## Commonmind (Jul 10, 2009)

I use "boutique" because that's what my mother used to call any store selling a specific item. Trust me when I say, I spend very little cash on clothing. It's Old Navy, American Eagle, Target, and the like for me. Occasionally, I will indulge in some pricier clothes, but only when I've come to a point where I need to replace an older, equally-as-pricey piece of clothing that has worn its way into the trash pile. 

A pair of 60 dollar jeans, for instance, which I might replace once every four years, compared to a 20 dollar pair I will inevitably replace much sooner.

I can't find the FFVII article myself. Not for lack of trying, either. I spent a solid hour searching the site, to no avail. It's too bad, too, because it was a good read. 

As for the narrative, I'll stick to my guns, (perhaps) reiterating that I still believe it to be relatively cliche. Because I found it to be so rudimentary, I think it would actually be rather difficult to change the narrative, even by drastically changing the dialog. If you'll forgive a poor analogy: I would equate this to painting a square wall twelve shades of red and then throwing wallpaper over the fresh paint. The wall is still square.

However, I think by changing the dialog they will change a large part of why so many FFVII fans -- whether they'll admit to this or not -- fell in love with the game: it's charm (oh, the irony!). The strange thing is that if they don't change it they'll end up with something that may come off as being largely satirical; it's easier to buy into cross-dressing party members, celebrating the death of a romantic interest by snow-boarding down a mountain, or racing Chocobos for endless hours, while staring at disproportionate characters -- without voice, or even expression, to lend them realism.

And that's interesting, Cayal. I may actually have to dig out the old PSOne to check that out. I don't remember loading times being an issue either, and I usually do remember that sort of thing when it comes to RPGs (I'm looking at you Lost Odyssey!).


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## Sephiroth (Jul 11, 2009)

I get you.  Here, 'boutique' has a certain, more up-market connotation, is all.  Heh.  But I'm very much the same, even with the jeans (they tend to be more expensive).  And most of my clothing literally _has _to wear away before it gets replaced.  ;p

Anyway, I forgive your analogy (and your opinion of the narrative...).  ^_^  I don't disagree, really, since as I said above, I feel that a lot of the best stuff in the game is between the lines.  

And yes, the charm is something I also mentioned, and it's hard to see how it could be preserved.  Of the elements you mentioned, I think the chocobo racing would still work fine (I think it makes sense, in the context of the world, that they race chocobos, and well-rendered chocobos could look _great_...even in XII, I thought they looked awesome --  _fearsome_, almost).  But the quirkiness of the mission to infiltrate the Don's mansion would certainly not work, regardless of what they did with the dialogue.  And the snowboarding bit.......  It's funny, because I tend to take that as just a metaphor for how they really got down on to the Great Glacier.  If you consider it a literal part of the storyline, then of course it makes no sense, and it would be incongruous in a more visually realistic setting.  

Any remake would require such a serious overhaul that, for me, it wouldn't _be _FFVII any more.


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## Commonmind (Jul 12, 2009)

I think we split hairs (amiably, of course), and it's funny that we continue to do it, because we largely agree with another on most points where VII is concerned -- despite feeling different about the overall experience.

And it's funny, because we've all seen the FFVII PS3 demo, and have heard all the rumors, but no one has ever considered the possibility that a remake could still be relatively close to the original in its presentation and design, faithful to it, without the hyper-realism. It's possible SE may just clean up the dialog, plug up some of the holes where necessary and give a slight nudge to the visual department (I'm thinking what Super Mario All-Stars is to the original).







Without a doubt this would please both sides of the fence (I assume). We'd have our improved engine -- for those of us who like our older games to progress with us as we age -- without upsetting the purists in all of us.


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## Cayal (Jul 12, 2009)

I wouldn't mind seeing it improved visually from the FFVIII point of view. You could see Squall running, it was more lifelike in that respect.


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## HareBrain (Jul 12, 2009)

Sephiroth said:


> As for me, I would never try to claim the story is perfect (_honest_... ;p), but as I said above, I think the whole hangs together well, despite whatever flaws there are. IMO, it transcends the flaws. I always felt like each character had a story I cared about, and that those stories fitted in well with the overarching plot (both the Shinra/environmental and Jenova/Sephiroth antagonist threads). Everything came together well as the story progressed, and crucially, what I was doing at the end of the game felt relevant, I felt as if I had been led there from the very beginning.


 
Great summary, Seph - I always thought that it was the interweaving of the two main threads - Shinra-v-planet and Cloud-v-Sephiroth - that made the story great. It's the only FF game I've played more than once. To contrast, I found the whole Ultimecia thing in VIII baffling - the main boss, and she just seemed to come from out of nowhere - and the same goes for whatever-it-was at the end of IX, which was even worse.

I've read some reviews of VII on Amazon, and it seems that even younger gamers who've recently played it for the first time have fallen for it, so I don't think its charm is wholly that we played it when there was nothing else like it around (oh, those days when the first Gran Turismo, Tomb Raider and FFVII came out seemingly within weeks of each other - such times will never come again!!)

And for me, that moment when Sephiroth shows them the photograph at the northern crater blew me away emotionally - I literally couldn't breathe. No other game has ever produced a moment like that. Cloud might be a cliche, with his amnesia, his tortured past and his personality disorders, but he is by far and away the best of his type. And the music! The soundtrack album (admittedly edited) is still one of my most-played when I'm writing.

Anyway, enough, or I'll persuade myself to get it out and play through it again. There must have been some materia I didn't get last time ...


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## Commonmind (Jul 13, 2009)

Part of what you said goes back to an earlier post I made about age being a large factor in how we perceive and judge a particular experience. So I'm not entirely surprised that new, younger gamers are having similar experiences with FFVII. What I meant above was not so much that the younger generation has become more sophisticated in its own tastes, but that we have. To give an example, had I played FFVII much later in life -- say, now -- I might be even more critical than I was when I initially experienced it. Same thing goes for VI.


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## HareBrain (Jul 13, 2009)

That might be true, CM, but I was thirty back in '97, so not that young. I'm not sure how i'd react to it now - certainly I'd be less patient with the random battles and a lot less tolerant of the dreadful dialogue translation, but I still think I would very much enjoy its story and characters. But I might be fooling myself.


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## Sephiroth (Jul 13, 2009)

Blimey, CM, you're right.  I _hadn't_ considered the idea that they might just do a 'Mario All-Stars' on it.  _That_, of course, would be most acceptable. For some reason, I had only been thinking of a major overhaul (which, as you know, scares me). 

As for splitting hairs, well...it's one of the things a pedant does best.  



HareBrain, I agree with everything you said. The end bosses of VIII and IX (particularly the latter, as you say) are indeed baffling, and seemingly unrelated to the plot. Ultimecia less so, perhaps, since they do at least try to shoehorn in a bit of story not long before you have to go and confront her, but as for Necron, well... I believe the popular internet acronym is _"WTF?!!!!!1111111111"_

And yes, '97 truly was a golden gaming year for me, too. (And I await GT5 with none of the questions/mixed feelings that I have concerning FFXIII. I can't wait for either, but I know the former is going to be awesome. Then again, Polyphony doesn't have a plot to worry about. And _Ferrari!_  At last!!!)

The scene at the Northern Crater is one of the most memorable for me, also.  (And I was, as is well documented elsewhere, profoundly affected by Aeris' death...)



HareBrain said:


> And the music! The soundtrack album (admittedly edited) is still one of my most-played when I'm writing.



You, too?   I wonder how many of us there are?!

At least you edit it.  I listen to the whole thing, more often than not.    Although I have (many) favourites that I like to play repeatedly.  It's very inspiring.  Uematsu is a genius, IMO.  The soundtrack is a work of art in its own right, and the way it captures (having helped to create) the mood of the various scenes and locations in the game is wonderful.  



> There must have been some materia I didn't get last time ...


Lucky you, if that is true.  I even got to the point where, having maxed out my characters at 99, I was going around morphing the appropriate monsters into sources so that I could continue to increase their stats up to the maximum of 255.  




CM, while I still think you have a point, in that our general expectations of games now are different, we tend to make allowances for the fact that a game is older.  I only played FFVI for the first time a couple of years ago, and I absolutely _loved _it.  If you mean that, had one of these games been a new release this year, then my opinion would have been less favourable, then you're undoubtedly right.  Like HareBrain, though, I think I'd still enjoy the story and characters, it's just that the gameplay elements would seem somewhat dated.


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## HareBrain (Jul 13, 2009)

Sephiroth said:


> At least you edit it. I listen to the whole thing, more often than not.  Although I have (many) favourites that I like to play repeatedly.


 
I'd be interested to know them. I love the Main Theme, Great Northern Cave, Anxious Heart and You Can Hear the Cry of the Planet; but the most spine-tingling for me are Who Am I?, Who Are You?, and On This Day Five Years Ago, all to do with Cloud's messed-up mind - not sure if the effect is more from the music itself or the association with those parts of the game - probably both. Dammit though, almost all of it is brilliant. Birth of God often goes through my head when I'm cycling - I'm sure it makes me go faster!

But in terms of its wow-effect during the game itself, there can be only one winner: J-E-N-O-V-A!


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## Cayal (Jul 14, 2009)

Sorry but that goes to One Winged Angel.


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## Commonmind (Jul 14, 2009)

HareBrain said:


> That might be true, CM, but I was thirty back in '97, so not that young. I'm not sure how i'd react to it now - certainly I'd be less patient with the random battles and a lot less tolerant of the dreadful dialogue translation, but I still think I would very much enjoy its story and characters. But I might be fooling myself.



I should've clarified, but I wasn't trying to say that an older gamer in 97 would've thrown their nose up at FFVII. It was the only thing like it during its  time -- at least in the console market -- and was thus the quintessential RPG experience. 

I believe younger gamers continue to enjoy the experience now because it's easier for them to buy into, and that those of us who played VII at launch have become more sophisticated (as you've alluded to yourself) as we've aged.

Not sure how much sense that makes -- I'm a bit under the weather


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## Commonmind (Jul 14, 2009)

> CM, while I still think you have a point, in that our general expectations of games now are different, we tend to make allowances for the fact that a game is older. I only played FFVI for the first time a couple of years ago, and I absolutely _loved _it. If you mean that, had one of these games been a new release this year, then my opinion would have been less favourable, then you're undoubtedly right. Like HareBrain, though, I think I'd still enjoy the story and characters, it's just that the gameplay elements would seem somewhat dated.



Yes, exactly. Take Dragon Quest IV for instance. I just recently played through it on the DS -- having neglected the PS2 import for a while now -- and I thoroughly enjoyed it. However, had it been released as DQIX, if SE had told us "Here, this is our new Dragon Quest product," I would've scoffed at them.


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## HareBrain (Jul 14, 2009)

Look what you've done, I've now become a FF7 obsessive! I even looked out the trailer on Youtube, and still got almost the same thrill from it as when I watched it before the game came out. How epic does it look? And really well put together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IatP3CVttO8


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## Cayal (Jul 14, 2009)

Except it contains a monster amount of spoilers, lol.

Aeris, Rufus just to name two.


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## Commonmind (Jul 14, 2009)

I know; what were they thinking?


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## Cayal (Jul 15, 2009)

It's fairly common nowadays. You can almost watch an entire movie if you see enough 'previews'.


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## HareBrain (Jul 15, 2009)

Not sure if that's true, about the spoilers. Obviously it looks that way if you play the game and then watch the trailer (did any of you see it beforehand?) but not otherwise, I think. I watched it about a hundred times before I played the game, but because I had no idea who Aeris and Rufus were, I didn't remember the trailer while playing the game. I recognised some bits when they happened, but didn't predict them.


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## Cayal (Jul 15, 2009)

HareBrain said:


> Not sure if that's true, about the spoilers. Obviously it looks that way if you play the game and then watch the trailer (did any of you see it beforehand?) but not otherwise, I think. I watched it about a hundred times before I played the game, but because I had no idea who Aeris and Rufus were, I didn't remember the trailer while playing the game. I recognised some bits when they happened, but didn't predict them.



But you see Aeris in the first minute of the game, and then later she is a playable character so if you remember the trailer you know she dies.


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## Commonmind (Jul 15, 2009)

I never saw a trailer for it, since I purchased the import. Even when it finally came to the states all I saw was a massive poster at my local Electronics Boutique -- or KB Toys, or wherever I ended up grabbing it. I never caught any of the Final Fantasy commercials -- I vaguely remember seeing one for FFVIII much, much later, after I'd already beaten and replayed the game.


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## HareBrain (Jul 15, 2009)

Cayal said:


> But you see Aeris in the first minute of the game, and then later she is a playable character so if you remember the trailer you know she dies.


 
This might have been me being stupid, but when I saw the trailer I didn't assume that the character it showed was dead. Maybe she was being lowered into a healing pool or something? (Even when she died in the game I thought there was at least an even chance that she would be brought back to life at some point.)


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## Cayal (Jul 15, 2009)

I guess it depends on perceptions.


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## mushroomyakuza (Aug 4, 2009)

Oh wow, I really don't know where to start.

First I'll say: Hello FF brothers 

Always a joy to find people who are as passionate about FF as you are, and some of you obviously are. I just spent ages reading the entire thread and a lot of points have been discussed.

One key issue that keeps coming up is, if we played the game when we were younger, unaware of other RPG experiences, and if this influenced our perception of the game. Well, it's entirely possible in my case. I came to FFVII without any RPG experience, or knowing what to really expect, except for a great storyline, which is originally what drew me in. It was a new concept to me; for a game to have such an in depth storyline. And, agreeing with Sephiroth, what a storyline it is . Sure, not perfect, but damn close IMO. Cliche ridden, yes, but as Seph says, the game overcomes them - it's the way that cliches are dealt with that make them subverise or at the very least, easy to overlook. It also lovingly gives attention and story to each and every character, even Cait Sith (or Reeve). 

So, did being younger affect my experience? Probably. Did it being my first RPG experience affect my judgement? Probably. But, ultimately, that doesn't matter - because the experience I had was incredible. I've been a gamer all my life, but I'd never, ever got into a game as much as I did FFVII. I was addicted. Like, genuinely addicted the way crackheads are addicted to drugs. Some of you may raise an eyebrow at that. Others are smiling and nodding their heads in understanding. It's still my favourite game of all time - I really don't even need to think about it, I don't even need to ask the question. 

What's really interesting, and something I have only _just _remembered, is that I first saw clips of FFVII in a music video type thing that came on a video type with an issue of games master. There were some interesting games on it, but one in particular, was so visually arresting that I felt an other-worldly kind of attachment to it. Unfortunately for me, I had no idea what the game was called, and didn't discover it for several years. Then, a friend at school introduced me to Final Fantasy VII for the PC. My memories of that visually arresting game fell into place - this was it! It was love. Pure and simple, I adored this game. I could wax lyrical about nostalgia for hours.

But, back to the pressing question of the thread: has FF lost its charm? Undoubtedly, yes. Look at VII, then look at XII. There is no comparison. Each game, SquareEnix seem to allow the player a little less control over their characters, story, freeform questing and so on. The soul of the game has been exchanged for the pretty looks and flashy explosions, rather than a compelling narrative with characters we care about. As many of you have pointed out, XII had cardboard cut-out like depth to its characters. I still have _absolutely no idea_ why Vaan was the protagonist or for that matter, why he was even there. Same goes for Penelo. 

I long for the days of character focus and parties of 8-9 characters, each fully fleshed out and developed with their own skill set rather than the bare minimum. I also miss airships, world maps, the non-linear structure, decent sidequests, attainable ultimate weapons and decent summons. I mean, is it that hard to give us a straight up return to form? From my perspective, it seems so glaringly simple. SquareEnix need to include these basic, elementary components of what makes an FF game, and they'll win back so many of their fans hearts and minds, even if they still have their wallets.

FFXIII is visaully stunning. I have major concerns about the rest of it though. The characters look like they're going to be as deep as those in XII, and the most recent tidbit regarding summons as "motorcycles" has my toes curling inward. What posses them? Just give us a straight up summon! And for the love of God, get back to basics with the battle system - clear, distinct classes with an ATB system and unique character skill sets, and get back to making weapon upgrades _count_, and be done regularly. In the FF games of old (6-9), I couldn't wait to get to the new town to see what weapon upgrade awaited me. These days we're either spoiled for choice (FFXII, making the decision almost impossible and altogether meaningless) or given no choice at all (FFX with its "status" affecting weapons...keep it simple!)

Sorry for the rant people, but I do feel I could talk for hours about what SquareEnix should be doing and how they continue to do it so very wrong instead.

As for the FFVII remake, I'm really in two minds about it. On one hand, I'd love to see it get a visual make over, BUT I am such a believer in the game as it is that I would literally want JUST a visual upgrade - the same dialogue, same story, same scenes, even the same camera angles. Anything not sticking firmly the original would be considered blasphamy in my eyes. Although it is tempting to wish for the much-rumoured originall-planned Aeris resurrection. But several things hold me back. For instance, voice acting. We live in an age where voice acting is mandatory in games, and I just can't imagine ever being satisfied with a voice actor reading out Cloud, Barrett, Cid, or anyone else's lines. I didn't like it in Advent Children, I'd be amazed if I'd like it for a fifty hour plus game. Then there's SquareEnix's compulsion to do a George Lucas. One of the reasons I hated Advent Children was, in terms of physics and character's fighting ability, it felt ludicrous, like some episode of Dragonball Z. Cloud, hundreds of feet in the air, cutting Bahamut in half along his spine? Come _on_. It just really, really didn't ring true for me, and I have a bad feeling SquareEnix couldn't help themselves to really go over the top with action CG if they ever did a remake, and I'm fairly sure it would be horrendous, at the very least, way over the top and completely untrue to the original game's take on fighting. So, I'm powerfully torn. Essentially what I want is the same old granny of a game, just with a major face lift, boob job and lots of airbrushing - I don't want a whole new model.

And everyone should have a look at this...comedic and not to be taken seriously, it nontheless looks like a game I'd love to play.

YouTube - FINAL FANTASY VII-2 by ToNg

Oh, and I also write while listening to Uematsu. FF music is the best. Sometimes the music brings back memories better than replaying the game.


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## Sephiroth (Aug 26, 2009)

Great post, mushroomyakuza.  And welcome to the Chrons!  It's always good to have another FF-head join the party.  I have plenty more to say, that I don't (unfortunately) have time to say, atm, but I'll get 'round to it...sooner or later.......  ^_^

Seems like we agree about many things, which is always good.  


HareBrain, I had a big long post typed out about my FFVII soundtrack listening habits, but I decided in the end that it was a bit much, and would probably bore you all to tears.  So I started listening to the CDs again, to see if I could narrow down my list of favourites to, perhaps, half a dozen or so...............

No dice.  :S

Well, I was getting there, but the sound on my motherboard packed in before I got to Disc 4 again.  

I will say that all of the tracks you mentioned are fantastic.  I totally get why you listen to _Birth Of A God _when cycling.    And I still get a sort of sick feeling in my stomach and a sense of terrible foreboding when _You Can Hear The Cry Of The Planet_ comes on (I get a similar, but less powerful effect from _Forested Temple_ -- those are two of my absolute favourites, _sooo _atmospheric).  

I could go on and on about those and other tracks, but I shall curb my tongue -- for now -- because I have to be off cooking dinner.  



mushroomyakuza said:


> Sometimes the music brings back memories better than replaying the game.



Couldn't agree more.


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## Red 13 (Jan 30, 2010)

I play every new Final Fantasy that comes out  and usually enjoy them but i loved FF7 so much that i tend to be dissapointed by the newer one's. Of course i'm gonna play FF13 but i'm not expecting it to be better than FF7. As for the rumours of the remake of FF7, it kinda worries me. I'm sure it will be good buuuuuut...its not the original!!
I bought the soundtrack of FF7 too, i love the song from the final battle against Sephiroth (who btw, is the coolest bad guy in video game history!).


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## Talysia (Jan 31, 2010)

Welcome to Chronicles, Red, from another FF fan! (particularly FF7, hence the avatar)

I've loved all of the Final Fantasy titles, but I haven't enjoyed the later ones as much recently - probably because I've changed a bit in my gaming habits. The earlier ones held a lot of charm for me (6, 7 and 9 especially), and what they lacked in graphics they made up for in story or characters, despite any of the obvious plotholes or flaws.

I probably won't play FF13, largely because I can't afford to get a PS3 right now, but I'm glad that the franchise is continuing long after that original, and supposedly _final _Final Fantasy.

I'm another fan of the FF music, too, although I haven't got any of the official soundtracks. I'll have to resort to playing the game through again.


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## Cayal (Jan 31, 2010)

Remake rumours of FFVII were squashed (again) the other day.

Apparently Square Enix do not like money.


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## Red 13 (Jan 31, 2010)

Cheers for the welcome Talysia!
I see you liked FF9 too, that one is my second favourite. I still have it and sometimes get my PS2 out and play it again, same for FF7 obviously.


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## Cayal (Feb 1, 2010)

7,8,9 are all good to go back too from time to time. Thankfully VII was released on PS3 so I can play it. VIII is not yet released on PS3 in australia, but I hope they release 9 as well.

I dislike the fact there are not towns or anything anymore. However I did love FF12.


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## Talysia (Feb 1, 2010)

Yes, that was a gripe of mine, Cayal.  It doesn't feel quite the same with the current system (in the few recent games I've played, anyway - might be different now).

And yes, Red, FF9 was one of my favourites, too.  After 8, it was good to get back to a more fantasy-based setting, and the characters had a lot of charm.  The final boss sort of caught me off-guard, though - I'd rather have had Kuja or Garland as a final boss.  That's just me, though.


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## Red 13 (Feb 1, 2010)

Yeah i liked FF9 because it was similar to FF7. I think they should of brought out FF9 before FF8 because FF8 was so different and the characters weren't as charming (apart from Laguna who was kinda fun).

Cayal, i think you would enjoy FF9. Hopefully it will be out soon on PS3.
I actually really disliked FF12, i found that the story wasn't very good and i didn't really care for the characters or the fighting system. Maybe i'm just getting old, lol!


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## Talysia (Feb 1, 2010)

I didn't mind FF12 (it's been ages since I last played it - I think it was the only FF game I played through only once), but there were a few things I wasn't keen on. The storyline was one: I felt it could have been stronger, somehow, and the characters were another, but it looked great and I felt the voices fit. I liked the individual missions, too.  Looking back, I think I'd probably give it another play if I found a 2nd hand copy somewhere.

Actually, I think that might be where the charm might be starting to fade, for me at least. These days, the graphics are so much better that the characters _can _look that much more realistic, and I tend to miss the more exaggerated character designs of games gone by, so to speak. Or I might just be a fan of the older style JRPGs.


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## thaddeus6th (Feb 1, 2010)

I think certain parts of 12 were excellent. I loved the battle system and although I liked the judges and the political aspect of the storyline I think it was a bit underdeveloped.

However, like many FF games, 12 suffered from Pointless Character Syndrome. Vaan was less annoying than Tidus, but still irrelevant (and endowed with the most angular sixpack this side of a Mega Drive) and Penelo was unnecessary as well.

Not a big issue for me, but the general graphics were slightly poor as well.

Not so sure about the next instalment. Apparently the graphics are absolutely mind-blowing, but it's very linear. I'm going to wait for the reviews and possibly skip it. God of War 3 comes out around that time anyway, so I'll probably get that instead.


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## Cayal (Feb 1, 2010)

Red 13 said:


> Cayal, i think you would enjoy FF9. Hopefully it will be out soon on PS3.
> I actually really disliked FF12, i found that the story wasn't very good and i didn't really care for the characters or the fighting system. Maybe i'm just getting old, lol!



I've played all Final Fantasies, except XI.


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## Red 13 (Feb 1, 2010)

Yeah,lol, i noticed you had after i posted that last one.


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