# Developments for Farming on Mars



## Serendipity (Jul 18, 2019)

Came across this interesting little gem - Scientists work out way to make Mars surface fit for farming

One question comes to mind though - why can't they use on the ice deposits found at our Moon's South Pole?


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## Brian G Turner (Jul 18, 2019)

Another problem is that there is no soil on Mars - just dust and rock. There would need to be a plan to use organic material to mix in with the surface material, presuming that it's even conducive to life. Perhaps scale up Mark Watney's solution?


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## RJM Corbet (Jul 18, 2019)

As I've said before, if all this can be done on Mars, why don't they test it here on Earth? If Martian desert can be transformed into farmland, why aren't they doing it here on Earth?


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## Vertigo (Jul 18, 2019)

RJM Corbet said:


> As I've said before, if all this can be done on Mars, why don't they test it here on Earth? If Martian desert can be transformed into farmland, why aren't they doing it here on Earth?


I suspect it's not worth it for a couple of reasons.
1. As noted by @Brian G Turner above, warming the ground is only the first step (I'm assuming you are thinking about our cold deserts; this technique would not help hot deserts at all). Once you've got things warm you've got to get enough water to the planting area. Then you've got to generate an organic loam. You've got the base of sand etc. but you need to add humus which is the live organic part and that is not so easy!
2. I'm not sure it's needed! I think we have enough land to produce enough to feed the entire population (at the moment) the reason people are starving is, I think, mostly because of conflicts preventing any or enough farming in some areas and, not to put too fine a point on it, very unfair and uneven distribution of that food.

On Mars of course you have no other sources so if people are going to live on Mars (and that's still a mighty big if with all the radiation issues etc.) then you need to grow food there.


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## RJM Corbet (Jul 18, 2019)

Ok, but the principle stands, that if we can't make a go of it here on our own world, we're not likely to succeed on alien worlds? The rich could grab the spacecraft and scarper off to Mars and leave the rest of humanity to die as the last trees fail and oxygen runs out -- but that means the privileged powerful ones would have to actually do some work once they got there, to Mars or whatever, and that's the equation needs attention, lol?


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## Brian G Turner (Jul 18, 2019)

RJM Corbet said:


> the principle stands, that if we can't make a go of it here on our own world, we're not likely to succeed on alien worlds?



That's actually a very good point. Unless we can successfully green our own deserts, in the presence of a full atmosphere and 1G gravity, how can we realistically hope to green other worlds without either?


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## RJM Corbet (Jul 18, 2019)

Brian G Turner said:


> That's actually a very good point. Unless we can successfully green our own deserts, in the presence of a full atmosphere and 1G gravity, how can we realistically hope to green other worlds without either?


I'm sure we could develop the technology. I picked up somewhere that the LIGO detector has the equivalent sensitivity of being able to detect a feather falling on an oil tanker. We are so smart and could easily generate the capability. The difficulty is we have Brazil destroying what's left of the Amazon. It's heartbreaking, really ...


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## Abernovo (Jul 18, 2019)

Brian G Turner said:


> That's actually a very good point. Unless we can successfully green our own deserts, in the presence of a full atmosphere and 1G gravity, how can we realistically hope to green other worlds without either?


In reality, we do not need to green our deserts, in general. As alluded to by Vertigo, we have a global food surplus, not a deficit. The reson people starve in a world with a food surplus is mainly to do with inequality, and greed. Even in places hit by drought, or famine, a major factor for the starvation is hoarding by rich elites, and/or (para)military factions damaging the food supply chain, by burning farms, killing livestock (including draught animals), and targeting people.

Add to that the greed of corporations and governments who continue to deny that the global climate is in crisis through their actions, and who would rather see people starve than share their patents at a price which might reap a lower dividend for their shareholders. And, of course, any localised greening of desert environments would require the level of investment, which would not necessarily benefit the people who could afford to be investors.

I think I should stop there, rather than to get on to a (rightly) banned topic. Basically, we can (and, indeed, have in places) created green spaces in Earth's deserts, but they are, by and large not required for global food security, and the set-up costs are probably not affordable for the local residents who could benefit from it. A Martian oasis creation (if successful) would be funded by the organisation creating the colony, which would not be interested in a short-term return, as it is a long-term project.

It is a fair point, though, in that if we do not change our short-sighted demand for quick personal profit and self-gratification, we will screw up any other world we try to colonise, and complete our present headlong course towards self-extinction.

Edit: Sorry, Serendipity, for derailing the thread.


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## Serendipity (Jul 19, 2019)

Abernovo - no apologies needed - science fiction is the genre to provoke discussion about society and where as a species we humans are going - which is what you were doing.... but I really do think it is time we set up a science / observation station on the Moon as a prelude to setting up a colony - and this tech could help with that.


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## Brian G Turner (Jul 19, 2019)

What I mean is that there have long been attempts to green the world's deserts, and so far we don't seem to have succeeded too well!


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## Dave (Jul 19, 2019)

Very technically speaking, a desert is merely a place with low rainfall. Not all deserts are wind blown sandy ergs. They can be made fertile on Earth simply by water irrigation, but it is costly and environmentally unsustainable. Israel uses River Jordan water to irrigate desert land and Las Vegas uses Colorado River water to have lush lawns and water fountain features, but both the Dead Sea and Lake Mead grow smaller each year as less water enters them. So, the water problem is merely one of supply and of cost. If it is feasible to mine and transport ice to Mars from the Moon or a satellite of another planet, then that becomes only a question of the economics.

The second problem of generating an organic loam is harder, but we would have a supply of human wastewater, excrement, and food waste. This would need to be recycled and reused anyway.  After treatment the sewage sludge could be further processed to remove viruses, prions and other human diseases. This would be harder with a small number of people, but easier with a larger population because of the economies of scale. If we took farm animals to Mars then there would be an even larger supply. They would need to be much more careful about what they poured down the sink and how they recycle waste than we are on Earth. A build-up of some heavy metal in the soil created could render it totally useless.

My guess is that, at least to begin with, hydroponics would be a better method of growing plants. You just need Vermiculite flakes and water containing the correct mineral recipe.

Either method would also require an atmosphere, however, which would create the kind of domed cities that are a staple of SF. These would be, in effect, enormous greenhouses. The soil bacteria along with the insects and other micro-organisms vital for a healthy soil, would require an Oxygen atmosphere. The plants would also require CO₂ at a low % but too high and the humans die. This would all need to be carefully monitored and artificially adjusted.

The glass dome and high levels of CO₂, from human respiration, would heat the inside and temperature would also need to be carefully monitored and adjusted. Everything we take for granted on Earth, would here need to be engineered and it may still be less economical than to simply import everything.

The final problem of the low gravity cannot be (presently) avoided. Even in an Earth-like soil, in and Earth-like atmosphere, with plentiful water and the right temperature, the plants may not be able to live in the low gravity. There have been some limited experiments of growing plants on the ISS.


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## Vertigo (Jul 19, 2019)

Brian G Turner said:


> What I mean is that there have long been attempts to green the world's deserts, and so far we don't seem to have succeeded too well!


I'm way outside my comfort zone here, but I think another issue that might make greening our own desert undesirable is that if we succeeded would it not upset the environmental balance? If for example you managed to make the whole of the Sahara green I suspect it would have impacts as far reaching as the weather patterns across the globe. I don't know that with any kind of certainty but maybe someone with more knowledge in this area could comment.


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## Dave (Jul 19, 2019)

It is simply a matter of economics. We could water the deserts but we don't have that much fresh water available. Desalination of sea water is possible but with current methods the energy required is huge, so it's a last resort both economically and environmentally. However, I did read news of a molecular sieve that could be used and powered by sunlight. Even if we could create a supply of fresh water, then it would need to be transported without evaporating along the way.

At the present, it is more important that we stop the washing away of the soil that we do have, due to intensive farming, slash and burn techniques, and simple mismanagement.


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## Brian G Turner (Jul 19, 2019)

Vertigo said:


> I think another issue that might make greening our own desert undesirable is that if we succeeded would it not upset the environmental balance? If for example you managed to make the whole of the Sahara green I suspect it would have impacts as far reaching as the weather patterns across the globe.



I think you're correct - though the irony is that I remember early models of Climate Change suggested the Sahara could end up moving back to Savannah.

But going back to the issue of terraforming - I think the difficulties of doing this are being vastly underestimated, as it involves much more than just adding water!


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## Vertigo (Jul 19, 2019)

Brian G Turner said:


> I think you're correct - though the irony is that I remember early models of Climate Change suggested the Sahara could end up moving back to Savannah.
> 
> But going back to the issue of terraforming - I think the difficulties of doing this are being vastly underestimated, as it involves much more than just adding water!


Absolutely:
Add Water
Add Atmosphere
Add/create topsoil
Shield from radiation (adding atmosphere will do some of that)

Lobbing water asteroids/comets at Mars might achieve some of that but it's going to take an awful lot of time to do that! And may not be practical if people have already started living on Mars by then!


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## -K2- (Jul 19, 2019)

Vertigo said:


> I'm way outside my comfort zone here, but I think another issue that might make greening our own desert undesirable is that if we succeeded would it not upset the environmental balance? If for example you managed to make the whole of the Sahara green I suspect it would have impacts as far reaching as the weather patterns across the globe. I don't know that with any kind of certainty but maybe someone with more knowledge in this area could comment.



Because it is parallel to something I'm working on, without saying too much, perhaps the questions pertaining any stable environment are not so much; 'how would we,' or 'should we,' but more, "how do we make it work for us, utilizing it, as it is."  Nature always finds its own balance/stability and has a LOT more punch than we could ever generate.  We might destroy the current world (for us and the world we desire, mostly), yet in the end nature will find its balance once again, perhaps determining that we need to be out of that equation.

So, the sure fire way to make it work in the _long-term_, I suspect, is learning how to thrive given-(though not altering), any world as it stands.  Sometimes, given our current technological state, that might simply result in, 'we don't.'

K2


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## Serendipity (Jul 20, 2019)

Interesting comments -K2- . My personal theory for the laws of physics is that finding stability is what makes things last a long time and anything thing else is so fleeting we really don't notice it. Seems to be you're saying the same for biology. Very interesting... I feel the fundamentals of a novel brewing here...


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