# Cautions on Witchcraft Figures....



## j d worthington (Mar 12, 2007)

I know this one's a loaded issue, in some ways. But I'm trying to find out the most accurate information according to recent research on this. I've always been fascinated by the whole thing -- not only how such beliefs took the forms they did, but why certain periods seemed so much worse (especially when there wasn't something obvious like plague in the picture) and others when it seemed it'd be likely, it didn't happen at all, or was surprisingly sparse.

At any rate, for a long time now, I've been seeing things indicating that most of the figures over the years have been shaky at best, either because of the unavailability of data, or because of occasional bias, or various other causes. I happened to come across the following article just a little while ago, and would like input from someone who's fairly knowledgeable about historical matters. So... if anyone finds the article interesting, and could help direct me to some good solid research on the subject, I'd appreciate it. I prefer avoiding those who approach it with an axe to grind from either side, of course, but it's difficult to sift through which do and which don't... especially as sometimes that bias is presented extremely subtly.

So... any help on where to look for good, solid research information would be appreciated....

Thanks! 

Here's the link:

Recent Developments in the Study of The Great European Witch Hunt


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## Curt Chiarelli (Mar 12, 2007)

As amply demonstarted by that article, the importance of primary research is crucial. The only way to be certain J.D. is to travel to Europe and do your own research from original source material. Not only will you have to be excellent at Latin (for the church records), but also a master of Medieval languages (for the civil transcripts) and be enrolled in a recognised graduate/doctorate degree program. I doubt if those municipalities will just let anyone have access to such antiquities. 

The field is simply too cluttered with people who have a particular socio-political-religious axe to grind to take for granted that their sources are free of any compromising issues. Accordingly, I have no knowledge of any reputable scholarly treatises that deal with the subject entirely in a modern, fact-based manner. I wish I could be of more help.

However, psychologically and sociologically speaking, the premise of this article rings true: the witch craze escalated during the Reformation, at a point when society was de-stabilised, the Catholic Church threatened and civil law authority weakest, thus allowing opportunistic psychopaths a perfect entry point to seize the reins of power. Somehow it reminds me of another, more recent era . . . .


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## Joel007 (Mar 12, 2007)

Sadly all I've read about witch-finding was in the works of Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. Not exactly fact, but I suppose you get a very good picture of the absurdity of it all


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## j d worthington (Mar 12, 2007)

Um, Joel... I think what you, Curt, and pTerry are seeing are pretty much on the same page.....

Well, Curt, I will say that I'm seeing, in the last 10 years or so, works that do seem to be headed that way... taking a cautious approach about figures, and about causes, looking at various things that weren't seen to be necessarily connected before. For instance, the Salem/Danvers case. Now, a long time ago, I'd seen suggestions of ergot poisoning as being a primary cause for that, but the figures didn't make sense... until someone who was originally a skeptic about that one did some correlations, and realized that the rye for the bread was coming from fields predominantly on one side of the village, where there had been precisely the conditions to produce the mold that would cause ergot poisoning were it cleansed, ground, and baked -- and that this was still only one factor, the others being such things as a drought the two years before, resulting in near-starvation for the inhabitants, plus severe problems with Indian attacks the previous winter, including some kidnappings, and members lost battling the hostiles, that put the settement at risk; added to that were the growing tensions due to the new minister, Samuel Parris, who was appointed in 1689 -- three years before the accusations started flying fast and furious -- who, from what we've been able to gather through diligent research, went far beyond the norm even for a Puritan minister of the time in his Calvinistic approach and who was so self-absorbed and neglectful of the needs of those around him, including the safety and well-being of his community, to have raised the strong possibility that he was a genuine sociopath (albeit not of the extreme stripe)... In other words, once things that had never been looked at together were, it began to form a pattern which might explain why a case of ergot poisoning might well take that form of delusion. And added to that were the extra facts that some of the land belonging to those accused of witchcraft was a bone of contention with the more prosperous members of the community, and that there were generational divisions surfacing and some of the girls who made accusations were already on shaky ground themselves... then add in some of the stories told by Tituba, plus the very real belief in the physical presence of the devil.... 

And they left this as a very plausible, even probable case... but not yet proven -- needing more research and fact-finding if possible, before stating it conclusively. Now, that's a genuine scientific approach: looking at the evidence, seeing the pattern, and still leaving it open in case contradictory evidence should surface, but realizing that this explains all the evidence we have at this point better than anything else.... I'm seeing research of that sort brought to bear on the entire issue, in Europe, the British Isles, and America (as well as other parts of the globe where such outbreaks have occurred)... basically interdisciplinary cooperation to help understand these things. I was just hoping someone might have come across something that was pretty recent that had taken such an approach with the larger European theatre....

At any rate, thanks for the responses; and I'll hope that perhaps there's something of that sort out there, and that it will surface. If it does, I'll be sure to let you know!


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## Allegra (Mar 12, 2007)

The article looks very interesting, J.D. I'll read it when I have some time. I guess the study for the whole truth will not go far so long as the Vatican keeps the secrets they've been keeping. It's pretty much like the study about what happened to the Knights Templar.


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## mosaix (Mar 12, 2007)

JD, probably not what you're looking for but Pendle near Manchester (where I used to live) was famous for the Pendle Witch Trial of 1612. Googlling for the Pendle Witches will bring up numerous links but this one

The Pendle Witches or Lancashire Witches

is as good as any. Interestingly there's a link there to the same article that you have found.


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## j d worthington (Mar 12, 2007)

Thanks, Mosaix! I'll give that one a look!


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## Ice fyre (Mar 27, 2007)

I had a look at the article J.D how serious are you on the research you were thinking of doing, you just wanting to read some books on the subject or were you looking for some actual documentation on this?


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## The Ace (Mar 27, 2007)

Interesting point, but "Wise women," were often healers, but also were midwives and laid out the dead.  One theory behind the witch hunts was the rise of male dominated medicine, tellingly many "Witches," were professed midwives, competing with doctors for fees.


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## Milk (Mar 27, 2007)

The Ace said:


> Interesting point, but "Wise women," were often healers, but also were midwives and laid out the dead. One theory behind the witch hunts was the rise of male dominated medicine, tellingly many "Witches," were professed midwives, competing with doctors for fees.


 

Or put simply. The Black Death.
Thats how quirky theorists like Joseph Cambel or even silly people like(lol) Terrence Mckenna would view it.

The Black Death happened and since people did not understand the real cause of bubonic plague... Those 'shaman's' 'witches' 'old village healers' or what have you became the scapegoats of the Black Death.



This was when the schizm between 'village healer' and Christianity became a lot more well defined. Im not saying that pagans were not burned alive before the Black Death but to ignore the scapegoating of that time period is missing a big chunk of the history of (supposed) Witchcraft.

I know it was 'just' a plague that killed legions of people in Europe.. right? No! the Black Death has had arguably one of biggest impacts on western culture and thinking of any event in world history possibly upstaging WW1 and 2, or even industrialization, if all of history for the west was compared. And invariably the old world attitudes formed from the black death days carried over to the new world and are probably even prevalent now still to this day, or perhaps they are limited to merely unconscious cultural memories in Europe. I dunno.
Anyhow, im just saying to mention the ole 'lets get some pitchforks and torches and string up the village healer' without mentioning the Black Death, its dodging the issue imo.


Imagine Terry Pratchets Discworld after a plague that wipes out 1/2 of everyone on the map, a plague nobody understands the cause of followed by a mini ice age... do you think the Witches in Discworld would be safe from the masses of pitchfork weilding villagers? Or even the Wizards in Anthro-Morpork? Terry Pratchet do you have your pen ready? Just kidding. Would make a great story although a bit brutal.


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