# The Ambiguous Seven - Morally Ambiguous SF TV Characters



## J-Sun (Jul 27, 2012)

One of my favorite topics is touched on in this article on morally dubious characters. My watchings of cable TV shows are spotty so I don't know Nerus and only vaguely know Todd and the new Baltar. Nothing to do with cable or lack thereof, but I also barely know Tyr and regard him as, frankly, a dumb character based on a stupid lowest common denominator misunderstanding of what "Nietzscheans" might be.

Also, I regard Saffron as a pure villain - I mean, not "pure evil" but she's not a good girl. The article misses the boat there - Jayne is the great morally ambiguous character of Firefly, although Mal, Book, River, even Simon and possibly others are also morally ambiguous.

But then we have Q and Garak. That's a tough call but they're the two "best". And how weird is it that they're both Star Trek characters, from Rodenberry's sweetness and light franchise? I think, in a way, there is a scale with Q that actually makes him second best. He's probably the best all-around character of the list, but Garak is much more focused on moral ambiguity. One of my favorite scenes anywhere in anything is Bashir and Garak on "the boy who cried wolf".

I can't really think of ones not on the list but I'm sure it's brain malfunction and I look forward to the nominees of others, if you have any.


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## Jo Zebedee (Jul 27, 2012)

They missed one of my favourites, but perhaps I'm showing my age here, but Avon from Blake's Seven was terribly ambiguous, right from the start - he planned to run with the ship and take the treasure. One of the funniest episodes had him and Villa on a ship where weight needed to be jettisoned to survive and he worked out that Villa was just the right weight...


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## Mouse (Jul 27, 2012)

_Definitely_ Jayne and not Saffron! 

I'll add Adele DeWitt from Dollhouse. Not only morally ambiguous, but also best female character in anything ever. 

How about Sikozu from Farscape? or possibly even Rygel?

Nina from Alphas? Possibly stretching it a bit there.


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## Venusian Broon (Jul 27, 2012)

springs said:


> They missed one of my favourites, but perhaps I'm showing my age here, but Avon from Blake's Seven was terribly ambiguous, right from the start - he planned to run with the ship and take the treasure. One of the funniest episodes had him and Villa on a ship where weight needed to be jettisoned to survive and he worked out that Villa was just the right weight...


 
Aah Springs, that brings back memories of chewing on Texan bars in my pyjamas while watching telly with the family. 

I seem to remember that Villa hid in a ships closet and was terrified to come out, but then Avon found a minute chunk of dense star material (was it black hole or white dwarf star - something like that) encased in a glass block that was really weighing the ship down, so he tried to call Villa out to help him but he wouldn't come. Also that scene had the world's best miming of trying to push something really, really heavy that wasn't there. (but was just in real life a palm-sized paperweight). 

Oh right better add to the thread. 

I'd like to nominate the entire cast of _Lost_ as being morally dubious - probably easier that way as off the top of my head only a few were reasonably unblemished - Jack, Hurley, Ben's Daughter spring to mind.


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## Mouse (Jul 27, 2012)

I think only Ben (and possibly Sawyer) in Lost count as morally dubious. Or what I'd describe as morally dubious anyway. Jack was just a moron. (I know he was under your exceptions but any excuse to bash Jack )


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## J-Sun (Jul 27, 2012)

Mouse said:


> I'll add Adele DeWitt from Dollhouse. Not only morally ambiguous, but also best female character in anything ever.
> 
> How about Sikozu from Farscape? or possibly even Rygel?
> 
> Nina from Alphas? Possibly stretching it a bit there.



Good ones - I knew I was forgetting stuff. I don't know _Alphas_, but yeah: _Dollhouse_ and _Farscape_. I wouldn't go so far on Adele (and I missed the end when she may have gotten more ambiguous) but there were definitely hints of complexity from early on. I think absolutely everyone in that show would qualify. My watching of Sikozu was pretty random, but seems like a fit. And definitely Rygel.


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## Jo Zebedee (Jul 27, 2012)

Venusian Broon said:


> Aah Springs, that brings back memories of chewing on Texan bars in my pyjamas while watching telly with the family.
> 
> I seem to remember that Villa hid in a ships closet and was terrified to come out, but then Avon found a minute chunk of dense star material (was it black hole or white dwarf star - something like that) encased in a glass block that was really weighing the ship down, so he tried to call Villa out to help him but he wouldn't come. Also that scene had the world's best miming of trying to push something really, really heavy that wasn't there. (but was just in real life a palm-sized paperweight).
> 
> ...


 
I think that's very us, VB - you remember what the heck caused it, and I still scratch my head about the science  And we both watched it and thought it was just cool at the time.


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## Mouse (Jul 27, 2012)

J-Sun said:


> Good ones - I knew I was forgetting stuff. I don't know _Alphas_, but yeah: _Dollhouse_ and _Farscape_. I wouldn't go so far on Adele (and I missed the end when she may have gotten more ambiguous) but there were definitely hints of complexity from early on. I think absolutely everyone in that show would qualify. My watching of Sikozu was pretty random, but seems like a fit. And definitely Rygel.



Yeah, Dollhouse had some great characters, all pretty complex.

(And I love Rygel!)


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## Venusian Broon (Jul 28, 2012)

Mouse said:


> I think only Ben (and possibly Sawyer) in Lost count as morally dubious. Or what I'd describe as morally dubious anyway. Jack was just a moron. (I know he was under your exceptions but any excuse to bash Jack )


 
oh don't get me started on Lost, my fave show of the naughties 

Just picking one thing they did at a time...


Sayid tortured people,
Locke let Sawyer kill his father,
Sawyer himself killed (probably) quite a few people as well as being a scam artist,
Charley beat up Sun to get back at Locke as well as being a horrid little c**t and a dope fiend (I didn't like him!),
Micheal (admitedly under coercion) betrayed everyone and killed two people,
Kate did kill her step dad and caused the death of her best friend from childhood (ok, I'll give you that one, he shouldn't have got in the car...)
Jin worked for and did gangsta stuff....
Then there was all the back stabbing they did to themselves on the island....
etc....


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## Abernovo (Jul 28, 2012)

I have to agree that Jayne is the primary morally ambiguous character in *Firefly*. Saffron isn't totally evil, but she's a villain through and through. I think the list compilers are confusing likeability with ambiguity. As to Garak from *DS9*, isn't he the quintessential spy figure? You could never trust him, but you'd definitely want him in your camp, not least so you knew where he was to keep an eye on him.

Springs, *Blake's 7*! Those were the days. Shaky sets, dodgy science, brilliant entertainment.

Lost annoyed me after the first few episodes and I gave up, so I can't comment. However, I'll put in Lydecker, from *Dark Angel*. Thoroughly nasty, but with a sense of honour, duty  and devotion, however misplaced.


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## Mouse (Jul 28, 2012)

I forgot about Michael, VB, because _he was so incredibly dull_! WAAAAAAAALT!

See, Charlie was my favourite character but the writers totally messed him up. They could've done so much more with his character but he became all about Claire and that sucked. I don't think he was morally ambiguous (though I would've preferred it if he was). He was essentially a good guy who went a little off track and redeemed himself in the end. 

I _almost_ included Locke when I added my (possibly Sawyer) bit, but decided not to because again, it doesn't quite fit for me. Kate no. Jin no. Sayid I might give you.


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## Venusian Broon (Jul 29, 2012)

Mouse said:


> I _almost_ included Locke when I added my (possibly Sawyer) bit, but decided not to because again, it doesn't quite fit for me. Kate no. Jin no. Sayid I might give you.


 
The thing I loved about all the characters in Lost was that they all had a bit of black and white in them to varying degrees, which was a change from the usual one dimensional characters in many dramas. (I agree that Jack was pretty annoying - too 'white') 

Well I'll leave it at that, only to wonder why our definitions of morally dubious are so different, and to quickly check if my wallet is still where I left it after I've talked to you. _Quick dear, put the silver and the pistols away, Mouse might be coming around..._


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## hopewrites (Jul 29, 2012)

I love Q!! The episode where he gets turned human is still my favorite. Came right at a time in my life when trying to be human was confusing the heck out of me, so that might play in. I would only call him morally ambiguous in that his morals were not everyone else's, the ones he had he stuck to however. Narcissistic, I'd call him that in a heat beat.


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## Mouse (Jul 29, 2012)

Venusian Broon said:


> Well I'll leave it at that, only to wonder why our definitions of morally dubious are so different, and to quickly check if my wallet is still where I left it after I've talked to you. _Quick dear, put the silver and the pistols away, Mouse might be coming around..._



Hey hey! It might be because _I'm_ too busy seeing the good in everyone!


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## Venusian Broon (Jul 30, 2012)

Mouse said:


> Hey hey! It might be because _I'm_ too busy seeing the good in everyone!


 
Perhaps it's the Calvinist upbringing that was still pretty strong in Sweaty Sock land society when I grew up*, but somehow I think it's much worse, morally, when a good person knowingly commits an evil act (even if there was 'no way out' and you had no choice or it was for the greater good - or in the case of Lost for some burning selfish reason. But usually there is a choice. Kate is a good example. You don't correct an evil by committing a bigger evil, as the story showed...) 

Hence my identification of most of the cast of Lost as morally dubious!!

I'm with you though in always trying to see the best in people, must be the best way to live your life (as long as we are not_ too_ gullible...) 





* In case you are wondering my view on Religion is: I can see a church from my kitchen window.


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## Rodders (Aug 7, 2012)

what about G'Kar and Londo Mollari from B5? 

OK, G'Kar started out with the perception of the bad guy, but that changed as the story progressed and look what Londo underwent for his own personal power the for his people.

Definately Jayne and Avon.


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## paranoid marvin (Feb 11, 2018)

The obvious one for me is Dredd. He IS the law, but where the law isn't perfect neither is he.


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## Jo Zebedee (Feb 11, 2018)

Good old thread


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