# Historical Heroes



## Perpetual Man (Oct 25, 2015)

Having had my memory pricked by a recent trip to Winchester, I thought it might be an idea to have a thread about those people from history that have been our heroes, inspirational or otherwise.

Not only may it be educational  but those writers among us might find some things of interest to draw upon.

So, who are your historical heroes?


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## Perpetual Man (Oct 25, 2015)

Quite a lot of my earliest heroes come from the British Ladybird series of books that were part and parcel of growing up. They were simple hardback books with an epic colour picture to each page of text, and although they covered many subject matters from stories to cars, they also had a Historical section that covered characters from history in a simple but educational way.

It's hardly surprising then that some of my earliest heroes came from within those pages.

The first of these is slightly different. Although I had the book, I remember that my dad was quite fond of this king as well, and he used to tell us some of the tales without the book, and that was:

*King Alfred The Great
849 - 899






*​Alfred was a Saxon king, who ruled at a time when England was a mass of smaller kingdoms, but was perceived to be one of the first kings of a bigger area.

He was a devout Christian and that was something that drove him throughout his life. He allegedly travelled to Rome and met with the Pope, and he enforced peace by converting some of the Danish raiders to Christianity.

Although he ruled in a time when Kings were expected to be warriors as well as rulers, history seems to show that he was a weak man (not in a mental sense), plagued by illness, possibly Chron's disease.

He was educated and tried to bring education to those around him. His reign was not without it's problems and there was a time where he spent his life hiding in the marshes around Wessex and it is there one of the most popular legends concerning him came to pass. That while in hiding he took shelter with a woman who asked him to keep an eye on some cakes she was cooking while she was out. He was in such deep thought that the cakes burned. Upon her return she beat him with her broom for his 'crime'. She never knew who he was.

The final resting place of Alfred is no longer known. He is one of those historical figures whose bones have been interred and disinterred a number of times and as such have been virtually lost.

Alfred the Great in more detail 






Considered to be one of the finest examples of Anglo Saxon art/jewellery ever discovered
the above carries the description 'Alfred caused me to be made' It has been dated to his
time and is believed to be something that was part of a gift he presented to a series of
churches in England.​


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## thaddeus6th (Oct 25, 2015)

I think 'heroes' might be over-egging my admiration a bit, but there are a few.

Aurelian would probably be the most stand out chap, partly because he gets almost zero recognition. When he became emperor, only his short-lived predecessor Claudius Gothicus had done a decent job in recent history. The Roman Empire had shattered into three (the Gallic Empire had broken off Gaul, Iberia and Britain, and the Palmyrene Empire, the ruins of which have recently been destroyed by demented delinquents, had broken off Asia Minor). Moreover, it was being repeatedly invaded by barbarian hordes every other Tuesday, and the Roman army had also developed a charming habit of mutiny and regicide.

Aurelian reigned for five years before being assassinated in peculiar, unclear circumstances, but during that time he smashed between half and one dozen barbarian invaders and reconquered both break-away empires. His premature death (possibly because he didn't tolerate nonsense and this worried the wealthy but militarily incompetent chaps in Rome) meant he didn't quite end the Crisis of the Third Century (which would have had dramatic implications for Christianity and Islam, as well as bringing forward the Dark Ages by 200 years) but he did an excellent job improving the situation.

Yet practically no-one even knows his name.

As an aside, Orleans is named after him.


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## Perpetual Man (Oct 26, 2015)

Quite fascinating Thad, I`ve been reading up on Aurelian since you posted and he really was an interesting fellow, it`s almost tragic the details about his assassination - well if Wikipedia is to believed.


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## thaddeus6th (Oct 27, 2015)

Tim, glad to hear it [he's a top chap and really doesn't get the recognition he deserves].

A few years ago I reviewed a biography of Aurelian: http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/review-restorer-of-world-emperor.html

[Point of order: Thaddeus White's my pen name, so there's no relation between me and John F White, the bio's author].

The assassination doesn't really seem to make sense. He was undoubtedly killed, but his senior staff would have been with him for perhaps a decade and more, and enjoyed perpetual military success. He was harsh, but fair, so they wouldn't worry on that account.


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## Caledfwlch (Oct 27, 2015)

One sort of hero of mine is a chap called Julian Cayo Evans. He founded the Free Wales Army, an organisation dedicated to forging a Welsh Republic in the 1960's.

One of the big reasons he is a hero to me, is that he never took the "easy route". the 60's of course was the World's era of Rebellion, Uprisings, Student Protest, you had various degrees of Terrorism in the Celtic Nations, the (official) IRA, the Scottish Republican Army, the Breton Liberation Front, organisations like ETA in the Basque Homelands at least had some degree of "Right" to their War, being against the Brutal Fascist Regime of Spain.

The FWA resisted the easy route though, they did carry out bombings, but only ever on empty buildings such as the Tax Office in Cardiff, or Electrical Pylons/Pipelines that were part of the extremely contentious building projects where welsh villages were being drowned to provide resevoirs for English cities, with those cities, such as Liverpool City Council effectively behaving like a Colonial Power - That City from another Nation was legally actually able to override the wishes of both the local County Council, and the Welsh Office in Cardiff, for example. Also things such as planning Laws were literally changed overnight to combat attempts at stopping the floodings.

The FWA used to risk getting caught, and nearly were once or twice, and I think even risked blowing themselves up once in their efforts to ensure that nobody was hurt by their actions. When it comes down to it, they were just a slightly more extreme "direct action" protest group. it is why for example people like Julian Cayo Evans and his 2IC Denis Cosslet are still worshipped in Wales. A famous East German who would travel around giving cash and training opportunities to organisations on behalf of Moscow approached Cayo Evans, and offered a blank cheque, and urban warfare training from experts in East Germany, and was told to bugger off, the FWA was not going to beholden itself to a foreign master, and weirdly, given that they were as such "against" the British State as it existed, I don't think they could have given themselves over to such a major enemy of Britain, but then, their enemy was the State, not the People, and in fact, the FWA did have several English Volunteers, and many of its Volunteers, such as Cayo Evans were ex British Army, and had fought for Britain. They were dreamers more than anything, and it makes me proud that the only real Welsh Resistence to English rule in modern times were basically decent people who did not want to murder.


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## Perpetual Man (Oct 28, 2015)

Another historical hero of mine although this is slightly different. I think he was very much a hero when I was younger, but it is easier to look at him differently now.

*Richard I, The Lionheart, Coeur de Lion.*

*8th September 1157 – 6th April 1199




*​
In many ways King Richard is the ideal inspirational figure. He was not just a monarch, but a warrior monarch who has countless tales about him, far enough back in time to be legendary and to be honest he cuts a striking figure which is only enhanced by his nickname. He is also one of the very few Kings who is better known by his epithet rather than his number.

He was apparently tall for his time, with red (ish) hair and a great warrior/military leader. His height has been called into question though, his brother John was quite short, so it might be considered odd that two brothers could be different... or not.

Richard started leading armies for his father, Henry II when he was just 16 and was shown to be able a solid commander. He was descended directly from William the Conqueror and as such had claims to land in Normandy, which was probably just as well, as being the third born son of the ruling Monarch meant there was little chance of him becoming King.

It seems as though Henry was either very kind towards his sons, or was trying to set something bigger in motion, prepared to split his holdings in three, with him becoming some kind of overlord. His sons did not accept this and rebelled, something that would become a near constant for the future. Ultimately the Henry kept them in order, and through illness and compromise Richard moved through the line of succession becoming King.

He left the country behind to become a pivotal figure in the Third Crusade, which is where much of his appeal comes from. He was involved most famously in a tactical dance with the Muslim leader Saladin, and although Richard never took Jerusalem, his victories were enough to establish the men as equals. There is a story, probably untrue, about a meeting between the two men, both fascinated with one another. Richard was able to show the power of his broadsword by cutting through a solid bar of metal, while Saladin through a silk scarf in the air and cut it in two as it drifted down over his scimitar.

While returning from the crusades he was shipwrecked and taken prisoner, held hostage with a large demand for ransom from England. Apparently this was illegal ` any Crusader was meant to be immune to being taken in such a manner and a number of nobles were excommunicated by the pope.

There is also a story of how Richard`s favourite Minstral travelled across Europe singing songs until he discovered where his Lord was held captive. Ultimately though the ransom was paid and Richard returned home.

With all this taken into account it is easy to see why Richard is such a strong historical figure, even the story of his death is somewhat larger than life, but there is another side to the story. As a leader Richard was a master of what we would call publicity. It is written that he was loved by his people and they saw him as a great leader. He fought for the glory of God and won victory after victory.

But during the length of his reign he only was in England for the better part of six months. He sold land and titles for money, raising taxes and tithes in order to fund his crusade, and while a prisoner his nobles over taxed the populace and churches in order to pay his ransom.

It is often his brother, John who is vilified, but he fought against the taxes and tried to bribe the hostage-takers to keep Richard prisoner. (Although is might seem a bad thing all the children of Henry worked against one another, and John might actually have been thinking of the country.)

Richard, though was consistent he might not have been the best king, but he was intelligent, charismatic and brave. A hero.

His death sums it up. While riding around the walls of one of his castles in Normandy, he was fatally shot by a crossbow (there is a chance he might have survived but the doctors bungled the procedure.)

The young lad who shot him was dragged before the dying King and when asked why he had done it, told him that he, Richard had responsible for the death of his father and brother. Richard pardoned him, saying it was a good enough reason and had him set free with a purse of money in hand, being told to live his life without fear. (It is more than likely that the nobles found the lad and had him killed after the King died.)

With no offspring, the crown of England passed to his younger brother, John and that was a different kettle of fish all together.


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## Perpetual Man (Oct 28, 2015)

Caledfwlch - something I did not know much (if anything) about at all, really interesting thank you!


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## Caledfwlch (Oct 28, 2015)

Tim James said:


> Caledfwlch - something I did not know much (if anything) about at all, really interesting thank you!



There is a book, and it was recently reprinted iirc, so should be easy to get called "To Dream of Freedom" it tells the Story of the Byddin Rhyddid Cymru (Free Wales Army) and the Mudiad Amddiffyn Cymru, the Movement for the Defence of Wales.

If you watch footage of Charles investiture as "Prince of Wales" a title still disputed by most of us Welsh people  in Caernarfon in 1969 he has something like a 9 gun salute, except there are 10 bangs, as an MAC device went off.

The Charles stuff is why one of the photo's has a uniformed Volunteer standing in front of Grafitti saying "Not a Jerry Prince" 

The thing is, the Official IRA, in the late 70's, before the Provo's came into existence gave the FWA most of their weapons, when the Provo's basically took over the OIRA they demanded to know where the guns were "oh, somewhere in Wales" was the answer! The deal was arranged by salesmen from the US arms company Colt, who arranged for the OIRA to hand their guns to the FWA, and the OIRA would then buy brand new M16's and so on from Colt, but at the time the Provo's took over, Colt's weapons hadn't arrived.

The British Police have never found it! which means that hidden somewhere in Wales, for the last 46 years or so is a large cache of Weapons, many of which, if kept properly are likely worth fortunes to collectors as we will be talking about ww2 rifles and so on!


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## Perpetual Man (Oct 28, 2015)

Caledfwlch said:


> The British Police have never found it! which means that hidden somewhere in Wales, for the last 46 years or so is a large cache of Weapons, many of which, if kept properly are likely worth fortunes to collectors as we will be talking about ww2 rifles and so on!



Now that really appeals, as you say it's crazy in a fascinating way. Just the thought of all those guns out there...


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## Caledfwlch (Oct 28, 2015)

Tim James said:


> Now that really appeals, as you say it's crazy in a fascinating way. Just the thought of all those guns out there...



In the late 60's on one of the aniversarys of the Easter Rising in Dublin, there was a huge parade, and a load of FWA men were invited to march, but I have never been able to find photo's of it, which is a shame.

There is a political organisation, the Celtic League who campaign for rights and so on in the Celtic Nations, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Cornwall, the Isle of Man and Brittany, but I think when they started in the late 60's/early 70's the plan was to act as a conduit between the various Celtic "freedom fighting" organisations, allowing an exchange of weapons, skills, tactics, knowledge and so on, though the most they ever did really was award the "Celtic Cross" to some Breton's for blowing up a Gendarmerie Station.

I suspect that the brutality and indiscriminatory nature of its campaign by the Provisional IRA has since PIRA formed, kept the rest of the Celtic Nations from any serious "armed uprising" since nobody wants to be tarred with that brush.

And I think the peaceful/political route has gotten us a lot further than any sort of Violent route! Scotland now has a Parliament once more, and Wales has its Senate. Both are very Socialist, and in Britain are often leading the way in terms of legislation, banning the use of shock collars for dogs and cats for example, introducing a charge for plastic bags, and the Welsh Senate have just enacted legislation giving Housing Tenants and the Homeless far more rights.


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## BAYLOR (Nov 1, 2015)

Audie Murphy served in the US army in Europe in World War Two .  He was the most decorated solider of the war.  I would say that he is good candidate for historical  hero.


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## BAYLOR (Nov 1, 2015)

Three more heroes to mention 

Oscar Schindler

Raul Wallenberg

Chiune Sugihara

These three men between them saved thousands of lives from the Nazis.


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## BAYLOR (Nov 1, 2015)

William Stevens    A Man called Intrepid


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## Perpetual Man (Dec 4, 2015)

I've let the thread go idle a bit, which isn't a problem, only I meant to put one more entry in before I was finished. (Or until the next historical figure piqued my interest!)

As with a lot of my early historical heroes the basis for that interest came from the Ladybird books, and why not? They were simply written, told the stories well and perhaps more importantly every other page was a full colour picture depicting scenes from the history. How could a a young impressionable mind not be sucked in.

This is the case with my third hero, Richard Neville 16th Earl of Warwick.

Back when I first became aware of Neville I was rather infatuated with Warwick Castle (I still am to be honest), and as it would have been his seat of power I was almost certainly gong to show an interest.

It is possible that Neville was one, if not the most powerful noble in the middle ages, and certainly during the War of the Roses, and that includes the monarchs. 

As with any historical person there is a lot that is nebulous, and rhetorical opinion seems to vacillate over time. To some Neville was a rash and emotional man, at other time he has been seen as an able commander and a great statesman. Whatever the truth, the first hand accounts from the time show that he was very popular with the people.

He was wealthy, and had power, generally coming from a number of different titles he held, including Captain of Calais that made him one of the foremost military powers of the time.

Most notably though was the role he played in the War of the Roses. When civil war looked likely, the opposing sides being the in power monarch Henry VI, a Lancastrian (House symbol a Red Rose) and the Yorkists (White Rose), Neville sided with the Yorkists. The whole issue for him began over a border dispute with the Duke of Somerset - one of Neville's titles was Earl of Salisbury which put him close enough to the Duke to have disagreements.

Although the early days of the unrest saw the ruling monarch successfully assert his power, it did lead to full rebellion which culminated in Neville removing Henry from the throne, and placing Edward of York on the throne as Edward IV. The new king had a genuine claim to the throne, as did many of the nobles at the time (including Neville) and it was only a matter of perspective and a sword thrust as to who was the rightful king.

Neville, however refused to have Henry killed, content to remain one of Edward's closest and most valuable advisers. 

Until they disagreed, although there were other issues, over a woman. Edward fell for Elizabeth Woodville, who Neville saw as too influential and his disquiet led to open rebellion again. 

Once more Neville won and put Henry back on the throne, probably believing that the weaker willed man would be easier to control. 

It did not really matter, Edward rebelled again, and ultimately won, the most decisive battle being at Barnet where Neville was killed.

Although there was a level of stability after that, the foothold of the Plantagenet kings was coming to an end, the War of the Roses would continue until Richard III (Edwards brother) would die at the battle of Bosworth Field and the Tudor's rose to power.

It seems that Neville was not after power - he had enough as it was, but perhaps given his popularity and wealth he might have claimed the throne for himself, he had a legitimate claim after all. But the fact he did not seems to indicate that he was after what was best for the country rather than himself and in the end it cost him everything.

He may not have been king but two things remained - his daughter married Richard III  so ultimately, if only for a short time, his line was on the throne, and he became known as the Kingmaker. And there might have been many Kings, but only one Kingmaker.


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## The Ace (Dec 4, 2015)

I have a couple;

*Ernst Leitz.*

Founder and owner of the company that virtually invented 35mm photography, he had a real problem with sales staff during the Nazi era.  No sooner would he appoint a Sales director in some far-flung corner of the world, arrange transport for him and his family, and give them some sample equipment, than the man would abscond with the proceeds and have to be replaced - hundreds of Jewish families were sent to safety by the, "Leica Freedom Train," but the story was only told after the death of Elsie Kuhn-Leitz, the last member of the original family in the 1990s.  Zeiss protected the families of their Jewish staff, and nobody could forget Sir Nicolas Winton.

*King Robert I (r 1306-29).*

*

 *



Probably needs no introduction if you're Scottish.  Seized the vacant crown after the murder of Sir William Wallace (traditionally, he's believed to have given Wallace that knighthood), and rebuilt a country that had virtually ceased to exist - his most lasting legacy is possibly that his 19th great-granddaughter currently occupies the British throne.


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## thaddeus6th (Dec 5, 2015)

You missed off the murder of a rival he'd arranged to meet in a church. Can hardly castigate Longshanks for topping Wallace and miss that off Robert's doings. Not that I think Edward I killing William Wallace was right (from the little I've read, Wallace was practically the only chap who hadn't actually acknowledged Edward's rule, yet also practically the only chap who got killed after surrendering). 

As an aside, I read a trio of books from this time (focusing on England but, as you'll appreciate, English and Scottish history overlapped a lot in this period). Was interested to learn that Robert's younger brother extended the Scottish realm to include much of Ireland, if only briefly. 

It's a shame Edward I was such a massive dick towards Scotland when the succession question arose. It's also a shame the Maid of Norway died before she could really reign:
Margaret, Maid of Norway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

History might have been quite different otherwise.


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## svalbard (Dec 5, 2015)

thaddeus6th said:


> You missed off the murder of a rival he'd arranged to meet in a church. Can hardly castigate Longshanks for topping Wallace and miss that off Robert's doings. Not that I think Edward I killing William Wallace was right (from the little I've read, Wallace was practically the only chap who hadn't actually acknowledged Edward's rule, yet also practically the only chap who got killed after surrendering).
> 
> As an aside, I read a trio of books from this time (focusing on England but, as you'll appreciate, English and Scottish history overlapped a lot in this period). Was interested to learn that Robert's younger brother extended the Scottish realm to include much of Ireland, if only briefly.
> 
> ...



Edward Bruce was not the most popular of rulers in Ireland. He was a fairly murderous fellow and his army caused widespread hardship across Ireland, Game of Thrones style.


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## Perpetual Man (Dec 5, 2015)

Ironically my first introduction to Robert the Bruce was through the Ladybird books again.

And my dad going on and on about that damned spider....


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## The Ace (Dec 5, 2015)

John Comyn at Dumfries.

Edward Bruce, briefly King of all Ireland, was one of four younger brothers of Robert I.  Thomas and Alexander were captured by the men of Galloway and handed over to the English for drawing and quartering, Nigel was killed defending Queen Elizabeth and Princess Marjory (later mother of Robert II, founder of the Stewart dynasty), and Edward's ambitions came to an abrupt, after not all of Ireland supported him.

I regard Wallace's death as murder because you cannot be a traitor to a foreign monarch.  If Alexander III's children hadn't predeceased him, the House of Dunkeld may still be on the Scottish throne today - not bad for a dynasty effectively started by an illegitimate double regicide who got his throne at the head of an English army - but we may still be in a Union.  Ambitions of kings on both sides of the border to hold both crowns is nothing new.

The spider belongs in the same world as Alfred the Great's cakes.


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## svalbard (Dec 5, 2015)

Macbeth was the last true High King of Scotland or Alba as it was then known. Although you could argue that his step-son Lulach holds that honour.


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## The Ace (Dec 5, 2015)

svalbard said:


> Macbeth was the last true High King of Scotland or Alba as it was then known. Although you could argue that his step-son Lulach holds that honour.



It was a bit more complicated than that;

Malcolm II (the Destroyer) was the last king of the house of Alpin.  With no sons to succeed him, a legitimate successor was a problem for a king who wanted to establish a system of primogeniture, rather than the tanist system, which usually boiled down to knifing your cousin.

He therefore decreed that he would be succeeded by one of his grandsons, Macbeth Mac findlay, or Duncan mac Crinan (Crinan was the lay abbot of Dunkeld, after which the house was named).

By the time Malcolm died in 1034 (the chronicles hint at violence, but say nothing concrete) his successor was established as Duncan I (the Bad-Blooded), which turned out to be a poor choice.  After four years of not making mistakes by not doing anything, Duncan rashly provoked both the English and the Vikings, and made a complete mess of things before, in 1040, attacking Macbeth's home unprovoked.

What was little more than a minor skirmish resulted in Duncan being wounded (some say by Macbeth himself), and bleeding out, and Macbeth was subsequently crowned with a national sigh of relief.

It's only fair to point out that Macbeth ruled Scotland fairly successfully for 17 years, being challenged only by Crinan (who died in the attempt), before losing out to Malcolm III Canmore in 1057.

The problem is that Malcolm's youngest son, David I, was the fourth great-grandfather of both John Balliol and Robert Bruce (one reason why the latter named his son David), and the ancestor of James VI and I, for whom Shakespeare wrote a certain play.


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## The Ace (Dec 5, 2015)

svalbard said:


> Macbeth was the last true High King of Scotland or Alba as it was then known. Although you could argue that his step-son Lulach holds that honour.




Not really, it was Macolm III Canmore and his second wife, "Saint," Margaret who began the, "Modernisation," of Scotland (introduction of the Roman Church to displace the Celtic one, and experiments in feudalism), but it was their youngest son David I who picked it up and ran with it (the Norman ancestors of the Balliols, Douglasses, Bruces, and Stewarts were all brought to Scotland by David, not his father).


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## Caledfwlch (Dec 8, 2015)

Is anyone here related to any Historical figures/heroes? 

A family member has been doing the family tree for years, and discovered the family name of my paternal branch was changed 4 or 500 years ago. We have a surname that though English/Norman in relation is very common in Wales, where surnames did not used to exist. But before this name change, my ancestors surname was "Anwyl" one part of the family kept the name Anwyl, (and a load of wealth) whilst my part became farmers and tradesmen like Blacksmiths - there is a relation from around the 15th century who appears to have been exiled from Britain for "something or other" so it could be the name of our branch was changed to hide relationship to this guy.

What it means is we are direct descendents of the House of Aberffraw!

Or in other words, of King Owen Gwynedd, and the famous Princes of Gwynedd who fought the Normans, including Llewllyn ap Olaf.


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## svalbard (Dec 9, 2015)

My family name is connected with physicians in 17th/18th century Ireland, with one of them ending up as Napoleon's personal physician, Barry Edward O'Meara. Of course my side of the O'Mearas ended up as labourers and alcoholics...


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## Caledfwlch (Dec 9, 2015)

svalbard said:


> My family name is connected with physicians in 17th/18th century Ireland, with one of them ending up as Napoleon's personal physician, Barry Edward O'Meara. Of course my side of the O'Mearas ended up as labourers and alcoholics...



It's always the way! I have been diddled on both sides of the tree lol I don't know exactly where it came from, but on my Mother's side, my maternal Dadcu's (welsh grandfather) family appeared to be very, very well off, they were just rural farming types from the Montgomeryshire/Meirionydd border who moved south to Ceredigion - but I think the great grandfather bought a huge amount of land, which was eventually sold over the decades and added up to a very hefty sum, they were still left with a farm and a load of land, but even that was sold 15 or 20 years ago.

Even with my Grandfather being 1 of about 7 or 8 brothers and sisters, and all the obvious descendents from them as most of them have passed away by now there could be a big pay out for people, possibly over a million.

I don't understand half of what's been going on or is ongoing, but the great grandfather had a second wife, who lived until the 90's, and for various reasons and some family members attempting to rob others, its all locked up in probate and has been for around nearly 20 years. I don't know much about what is going on, but one or two nieces/and/or nephews (or great ones) appear to have gotten payouts of some sort, and nobody is sure exactly how that happened with everything being tied up in probate, most likely until lawyers fees eat it all up over the fighting. I suspect there may have been a bank account or two the Estate Executor/s didn't know about, but it's all very odd. I think there may not have been a Will, so the argument over inheritence is between birth siblings and step siblings, something like that, all I know is its massively complicated.

I wouldn't have minded a share of the sort of sums that could be involved! 

From the maternal grandmother's side we have a Welsh Language Family bible from iirc the 1880's or 1890's, it's never been written in though, no births etc recorded, and it has full colour illustrations, beautifully done and each one protected by a preceeding sheet of thin tracing paper type stuff throughout, and I reckon it could well be worth a good few quid to a Collector, though never told the Mother as I suspect it would vanish - my Mamgu (welsh for grandmother) was in the Royal Artillery in the Second World War, and had a box of personal memorabilia, stuff like her ration card, all the uniform rank and regiment badges she had, and other's that she had collected, and several medals that she was awarded, and it has all "vanished" I went looking for the box as I wanted to photograph and scan the contents, for something to do, and as a way of being able to click them open and have a browse when I fancied. Right up until her death 14 years ago, my Mamgu would often have really bad nightmares about stuff she saw, as she did end up on the continent with her RA Unit post D Day, so she didn't like to look at the stuff often, it was very important to her, but also a reminder of the bad stuff, but very rarely she would sit with me and go through it explaining what everything was, and what it was for. I don't think she ever showed my 2 younger brothers. Not idiots or anything like that, they just wouldn't have appreciated what they were being shown, and would have just grabbed at stuff with grubby hands 

In a way she is also a "historical" Heroine of mine, as are other family members. A Farm girl from rural Mid Wales who grew up not speaking much English, as even that recently many of her generation in the rural parts of Wales didn't hear or need to use English very often ended up doing her bit, manning Ack Ack Guns and the like, even crossing to the continent (I think the RA taught her fluent English. And as if that was not an amazing thing in itself, in the early 1950's she became the very first Women Police Constable in the Cardiganshire Constabulary! And at my mother's house, there are still her original handwritten notes from her training, a couple of A4 pads, and I think badges from her WPC Uniform were also in the box with the military stuff  She eventually left the Police as apparently the sexism, it being the 1950's and a rural/small town force was unbearable.

Her Brother my Great Uncle Dafydd, who I could never keep my eyes off as a kid, because he had the most wonderful and huge Handlebar moustache, was in the Royal Navy's Submarine Service, and amongst his Service Medals he had a special one, and a certificate as he was on the Sub that evacuated the King and Crown Prince of Norway.

And my Father's Father, again from a rural background, though this time in Gwynedd, had the brains and got into Grammar School, but apprenticed as a Blacksmith & Farrier, was a huge man, 6ft something, and you can imagine the strength of a Blacksmith, and when WW2 broke out he had his own Smithy in a small town called Dolgellau, he immediately went to sign on and was refused as Blacksmithing was a "Reserved Occupation" like Farming and Mining. But he persevered, and with the help of the townsfolk doing petitions on his behalf he was finally accepted, and joined the first Commando force, iirc before it became attached to the Royal Marines, and 40 Commando/The Royal Marines Commando's came into existence. Later on, I think after an injury, he had a job teaching British Soldiers from different regions to understand each other, as of course, with stuff like radio being newish, people weren't used to regional accents, and to a degree regional dialects like we are now - plus they were a lot thicker then, most people in the UK these days understand some of the basic Yorkshire dialect from soap operas like Emmerdale "Owt, Nowt, Thee, goin t'shop" so if you stuck some soldiers from the Home Counties in with some South Welsh Valleys boys from the Rhondda, and Gwynedd (who alone would have trouble understanding each other, esp if the Gwynedd boys were rural, so not used to speaking English much) throw in a few Scousers, a Yorkshireman or two, and a couple of Geordies with an obligatory Glaswegian, and a Unit could have serious issues in communicating within itself - it's not something I have ever read anywhere about, I suppose it just gets overlooked, so was fascinated when my father told me about what my grandad did, after his time "Shooting in and out" of Continental Europe, with the Royal Navy's famous Adventure Travel Agency. 

As well as that Welsh language family bible, there is also a much smaller Bible, again in Welsh, with an inscription plate written in English, given to my Mamgu's father in WW1 - it says something like "To John Lewis, Merry Christmas, Lieutenant such and such, The Somme 1916. (I think it's the Somme it says) We do have a photograph of the guy, which isn't clear enough to identify any unit flashes, plus it's a frontal photo, and know very little about him, but he is wearing this weird bandolier thing, and from my research, it was a Royal Artillery Uniform - this is not him, but its a very similar photo with identical uniform. History is amazing stuff!


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## The Ace (Dec 27, 2015)

My mother's family are Stuarts - I've never felt any real inclination to investigate.


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## BAYLOR (Dec 27, 2015)

The Ace said:


> My mother's family are Stuarts - I've never felt any real inclination to investigate.



Famous ancestors?


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## BAYLOR (Dec 27, 2015)

Sir Alexander Flemming why? His discovery of Penicillin saved countless lives.


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## The Ace (Dec 27, 2015)

BAYLOR said:


> Famous ancestors?



Or infamous, depends who you ask.  Mary Stewart, Queen of Scots, adopted the spelling because there's no. "W," in the French language (even now, it only occurs in foreign words).  Her son, James VI/I continued the tradition, and it lasted until Queen Anne, last of the Stuart Monarchs (history would gladly forget Charles Edward Stuart, "Bonnie Prince Charlie,").


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## AnyaKimlin (Dec 27, 2015)

I studied Archaeology at what was then King Alfred's College.  I share an ancestor with Anne Boleyn and Katharine Howard but that's about the only interesting kink in my family history.  And I went to school with a view of the castle they think King Duncan died in (they've since moved the school) and back in the dim and distant past Alexander Graham Bell taught deaf children in their section of the school.

 Newson Garrett and Louisa Dunnell have always intrigued me - they were the parents of Millicent Garrett Fawcett (leader of the suffragists) and Elizabeth Garrett Anderson (first female doctor, mayor etc)  And one of their other daughters were the first interior designer (I think Alice but I could be wrong).


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## BAYLOR (Dec 27, 2015)

What about T E Lawrence?


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## Caledfwlch (Dec 31, 2015)

Winston Churchill often scores high in "Greatest Briton" polls, but that I think is usually by young people who have been given a sugar coated saviour figure - Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill was an absolute *******, thankfully, he was our *******, and at the time, we needed a ******* leading the Nation at War. in the 20's or 30's, what we now know as Iraq was under British "Protection" there were troubles with villages not paying their taxes, so Churchill suggested using gas warfare, such mustard gas shells delivered by plane or artillery, as punishment, against a select few in order to terrify the others into line.

Yeah, in spite of the horrors of what it did in WW1 he actually considered using mustard gas bombs/shells against a civil population which of course had children. Dude was seriously messed up.


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## thaddeus6th (Dec 31, 2015)

He saved Britain, and arguably the world, from Nazi dominion. That achievement eclipses whatever else he did.

In the same way, Alexander pacified the Bactrian rebellion by killing most of them, and slew one of his own friends in a drunken rage (admittedly, he was provoked, but still). Caesar committed a holocaust (the precise word used by TA Dodge) against Germanian tribes seeking to negotiate a peaceful settlement, killing vast numbers.


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## Ray McCarthy (Dec 31, 2015)

Caledfwlch said:


> usually by young people who have been given a sugar coated saviour figure


Before the WWII, the Government got him banned from BBC. Churchill was first major instigator of  "electronic" (Telegraph and Radio) surveillance even before WWI. I think he was first Lord of Admiralty.  He also formulated the attacks on German civilians and destruction of Dresden as revenge. After WWII, the electorate ditched him.
He also prior to 1930s wrote an Enoch Powell style anti-muslim "rivers of blood" essay or speech.


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## BAYLOR (Dec 31, 2015)

Ray McCarthy said:


> Before the WWII, the Government got him banned from BBC. Churchill was first major instigator of  "electronic" (Telegraph and Radio) surveillance even before WWI. I think he was first Lord of Admiralty.  He also formulated the attacks on German civilians and destruction of Dresden as revenge. After WWII, the electorate ditched him.
> He also prior to 1930s wrote an Enoch Powell style anti-muslim "rivers of blood" essay or speech.




I think even Winston Churchill would agree that he's not a candidate for  sainthood.  But then again, try imagining what a world without him would have been like.


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## Ray McCarthy (Jan 1, 2016)

BAYLOR said:


> But then again, try imagining what a world without him would have been like.


Might not have been much different. UK wasn't going to roll over and die. The RAF coupled with bad German decisions stalemated the German invasion plans. Russia was going to attack Germany anyway, maybe less than a year after Germany attacked Russia. 
If Russia hadn't entered the war, the UK would be speaking Germany today.
If USA hadn't entered the war, then Western Europe would be speaking Russian today.

Really almost nothing in the medium term depends on one person.


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## Caledfwlch (Jan 1, 2016)

Ray McCarthy said:


> Might not have been much different. UK wasn't going to roll over and die. The RAF coupled with bad German decisions stalemated the German invasion plans. Russia was going to attack Germany anyway, maybe less than a year after Germany attacked Russia.
> If Russia hadn't entered the war, the UK would be speaking Germany today.
> If USA hadn't entered the war, then Western Europe would be speaking Russian today.
> 
> Really almost nothing in the medium term depends on one person.



Sealion or any of its ilk was never going to fly, regardless of the RAF, the main block was the Germans had nothing capable of taking on the Royal Navy's Home Fleet and destroying it - I suppose it's possible that had someone other than Churchill been in charge, that person may not have taken the difficult decision to annihilate the surrendered French Fleet, to deny it to the Germans, which would perhaps have given the Kriegsmarine a lot more punch against the RN.

It's actually the second time Britain has done something like that - in 1807 Britain invaded neutral Denmark to destroy its naval fleet, as France and Russia were putting tremendous pressure on the Danes to hand it over to Napoleon, and there was a risk of France simply invading and taking it.


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## BAYLOR (Jan 1, 2016)

Caledfwlch said:


> Sealion or any of its ilk was never going to fly, regardless of the RAF, the main block was the Germans had nothing capable of taking on the Royal Navy's Home Fleet and destroying it - I suppose it's possible that had someone other than Churchill been in charge, that person may not have taken the difficult decision to annihilate the surrendered French Fleet, to deny it to the Germans, which would perhaps have given the Kriegsmarine a lot more punch against the RN.
> 
> It's actually the second time Britain has done something like that - in 1807 Britain invaded neutral Denmark to destroy its naval fleet, as France and Russia were putting tremendous pressure on the Danes to hand it over to Napoleon, and there was a risk of France simply invading and taking it.



Dowd and Parks had built up a very effective air defense For Britain, there was no way that the German Air force was wining the Battle of Britain with the strategy  they employed. 

If the Germany had gotten the French  fleet that would have effectively given them control of the Mediterranean sea and that made the African Campaign and a number other places impossible for Britain.

If Lord Halifax had been incharge wouldn't he have likely decides to cut a peace deal with Germany ?


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## mosaix (Jan 1, 2016)

Allan Turing.


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## BAYLOR (Jan 1, 2016)

Ray McCarthy said:


> Might not have been much different. UK wasn't going to roll over and die. The RAF coupled with bad German decisions stalemated the German invasion plans. Russia was going to attack Germany anyway, maybe less than a year after Germany attacked Russia.
> If Russia hadn't entered the war, the UK would be speaking Germany today.
> If USA hadn't entered the war, then Western Europe would be speaking Russian today.
> 
> Really almost nothing in the medium term depends on one person.



  But Churchill kept Britain in the war early and that was very crucial ,  especially after the Battle of Britain , The German Air force lost some of their best pilots , it weakened them.


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## The Ace (Jan 10, 2016)

thaddeus6th said:


> He saved Britain, and arguably the world, from Nazi dominion. That achievement eclipses whatever else he did.
> 
> In the same way, Alexander pacified the Bactrian rebellion by killing most of them, and slew one of his own friends in a drunken rage (admittedly, he was provoked, but still). Caesar committed a holocaust (the precise word used by TA Dodge) against Germanian tribes seeking to negotiate a peaceful settlement, killing vast numbers.



"Churchill," was a curse in our household, my grandfather and older uncles had been heavily involved in the General Strike, and subsequent martial law, and nobody had a good word to say about him.

Generations after his death, we can take a balanced view, but in his own lifetime, he was either a flawed hero or a complete b*st*rd.


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## aThenian (Jan 10, 2016)

The Ace said:


> "Churchill," was a curse in our household, my grandfather and older uncles had been heavily involved in the General Strike, and subsequent martial law, and nobody had a good word to say about him.
> 
> Generations after his death, we can take a balanced view, but in his own lifetime, he was either a flawed hero or a complete b*st*rd.



Yes, and he sent in troops against striking miners in South Wales.  

After World War II, in speeches for the general election, he actually compared the Labour opposition (who he had worked with in government during the War) to the gestapo.

I've still sort of got a soft spot for him after watching "The Gathering Storm" though - fantastic film, and Albert Finney's portrayal of him is masterly.


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## Tulius Hostilius (Jan 10, 2016)

I always thought that “hero” is a very strong word when applied to a historical character.
Essentially because is a mystification of a figure. It is a construction.
If we begin to deconstruct it he generally find a man with all its qualities and flaws.

But if I would point historical heroes… well I would point the most mystified characters in the History of Portugal:

Viriatus – A Lusitanian leader that fought against the Romans and for years defeated them until he was assassinated upon roman orders, even after a peace treaty that considered him "amicus populi Romani".

Afonso I of Portugal – 1st King of Portugal. He fought against Christians, Muslims and even against his mother, but understood the differences between Portucale and Leon and forged and conquered a country.

Luís de Camões – One of the biggest poets in history, his epic master piece is the “The Lusiads” (that I think, but not sure, that was translated to English for the first time by sir Richard Francis Burton (1821-1890). He is a true man of the Portuguese 16th century: Poet, soldier and adventurer. He travelled and fought in the Portuguese Expanding Empire, from Africa to India and China… and we really don’t know much… that allows the myth to grow…

And since you are talking about Churchill, I think that we will remembered always as the prime minister during the Blitz, and not as the major responsible of the Dardanelles Campaign in WWI or by its actions after WWII or against a General Strike.

Like Caesar is mostly remembered as an enlightened conqueror, a great strategist and not as a butcher of Gauls (and others), or a dubious politician.


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## The Ace (Jan 10, 2016)

aThenian said:


> Yes, and he sent in troops against striking miners in South Wales.
> 
> After World War II, in speeches for the general election, he actually compared the Labour opposition (who he had worked with in government during the War) to the gestapo.
> 
> I've still sort of got a soft spot for him after watching "The Gathering Storm" though - fantastic film, and Albert Finney's portrayal of him is masterly.




The grandfather and uncles concerned were Scottish miners.


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## Mirannan (Jan 13, 2016)

I can think of quite a few, but two more nobody's mentioned yet:

Charles Martel - without him, instead of Notre Dame there might be a mosque. And perhaps more of Europe than that might have been lost.

Much more recent, how about Simo Hayha? 505 sniper kills against an invading army.


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## Caledfwlch (Mar 6, 2016)

louis 145 said:


> ?



Is your question mark for Simo Hayha? He was a Finnish Sniper nicknamed the "White Death" when Russia invaded Finland, the so called "Winter War" as Mirannan says, he was credited with 505 Kills, and took a wound to his face that left him permanently scarred, he only died 13 years or so ago.

Not a lot of people seem to realise that during WW2, Finland whilst not as such an Axis power (They were not at War with the Western Allies) they were an Ally of Germany, having a common enemy in the Soviet Union who wanted to add Finland to the roster of the Soviet Empire.








The Finnish Air Force has a very interesting symbol, though they did not borrow it from Herr Hitler, it is the traditional luck/peace symbol, not Hitler's Nazi wheel gathering Darkness. I think they don't use it so much on Planes anymore, but I believe they were using it before Hitler and the Nazi's adoped the symbol and made it a sign of hatred and evil. I imagine it raises Tourists eyebrows if they do not realise the origins, and the fact its an ancient symbol of luck and peace.

in 1917, when the Russian Revolution kicked off, Finland, which was part of the Tsarist Russian Empire, erupted into Civil War, between the Soviet backed Communist "Red Guard" and the "White Guard" Sweden as always kept Neutral, but many Swedes supplied both help, and their manpower - A Swedish Count, Eric Von Rosen gave the Finnish Government/White Guard it's second Aeroplane in 1918, and had painted on the fuselage his personal good luck charm, the ancient Symbol of the Sun & Luck, the Swastika in Blue, so at least 2 years before the Austrian Scumbag perverted it. And it became the Finnish Air Force's symbol.


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## Calum (Mar 6, 2016)

I'd cautiously nominate Anthony Mascarenhas. He risked his life to expose the crimes of the Pakistani government in Bangladesh, allowing India to intervene, ending the worst genocide since the Holocaust. I say cautiously because I'm very leery about the notion of holding up people as heroes in history. Mostly beacuse I'm a psychopath who eats the hearts of milkmen in order to gain their power. But it bestows upon them a Teflon coating and encourages us to see the events surrounding through a rose tinted lens.

While it's certainly vital to acknowledge the importance of Churchill's determination in keeping Britain from surrendering to Hitler acting as though it wipes the slate clean of all his mistakes and flaws is short sighted and counterproductive. History involves looking at our past mistakes and trying to learn from them, and old Winston made his fair few blunders. His decision to give the Black and Tans a free hand led to an upsurge of violence (my own grandmother ended up on their bad side when they trashed her farm), giving us a grim lesson in giving too much power to the security forces.

Equally his sneering dismissal of the Bengal famine ('Why isn't Gahndi dead?') paints the picture of a man brushing off a people's suffering out of elitist contempt rather than a tortured warrior carefully weighing his options in the name of the greater good as his apoligists try to paint him as. However these incidents and any lessons they may provide us are brushed to the side to make way for the white washed image we have today. Acknowledging Churchill's importance is one thing, making him a saint is dangerous.

An even greater danger is that if we insist of deifying these figures we not only ignore their dark side but actively glamourize it. Many in Britain still glorify Cromwell despite his horrific actions in Ireland that cost 400'000 lives. So often this is met with the usual mantra that focusing on the negative won't bring his victims back, but Thatcher’s (thankfully failed) attempts to institute a plan to force all Irish Catholics to leave the country were inspired by him. This shows that if we fail to realise the grisly side of our heroes it makes repeating their mistakes all too easy. A more dangerous example of this can be seen with Hong Xiuquan, a crackpot religious fanatic from China who started a war that killed 20 million people while running a brutal, suppressive state that conducted vicious internal purges. Hong would later go on to inspire one Mao Zedong who'd manage to double his hero's body count. 

Since I'm a pretentious hack who can't make a point using his own words I'll close on a comment from Michael Moorcock:_ Heroes betray us. By having them, in real life, we betray ourselves._


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## WaylanderToo (Mar 6, 2016)

hero is too strong a word but a couple of interesting characters:


Hans Ulrich Rudel - Rudel flew 2,530 combat missions on the Eastern Front of World War II. The majority of these were undertaken while flying the Junkers Ju 87, although 430 were flown in the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 ground-attack variant. He was credited with the destruction of 519 tanks, severely damaging the battleship _Marat_, as well as sinking 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer and 70 landing craft. In addition, he also claimed to have destroyed more than 800 vehicles of all types, over 150 artillery, anti-tank or anti-aircraft positions, 4 armored trains, as well as numerous bridges and supply lines. Rudel was also credited with 9 aerial victories, 7 of which were fighter aircraft, and 2 Ilyushin Il-2s. He was shot down or forced to land 30 times due to anti-
aircraft artillery, was wounded five times, and rescued six stranded aircrew from enemy held territory


Otto Skorzeny - Hitler's commando again if someone were to make up a character who did everything OS did, it'd be dismissed as too fanciful


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## Brian G Turner (Mar 6, 2016)

WaylanderToo said:


> Otto Skorzeny - Hitler's commando again if someone were to make up a character who did everything OS did, it'd be dismissed as too fanciful



His autobiography came up on my research radar recently. I noticed he was mentioned by Speer as standing with Himmler when Berlin was locked down after the assassination attempt on Hitler. Hopefully will be able to buy the book at some point.


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## Caledfwlch (Mar 6, 2016)

I didn't know anyone glorified Cromwell, but then, as a Welshman who has always read up on the history of the Celtic Nations, and owning an Irish stepfather, and an Irish Uncle on my paternal side, it may be that knowing what a brutal Monster the man was, I may have simply assumed everyone knew. My pet theory on the apparent lack of Viking DNA in the modern Irish is Cromwell is responsible, since they founded certain cities, it would make sense that their descendents may have stayed in the surrounds of those cities, as people tended to move from rural areas to the cities and towns, not the other way round, as people do now, so maybe his ruthless butchery actually wiped out a huge amount of people with Viking descendancy.

Vaguely surprised that Tories even one as nasty as Thatcher would be fans of the man, since they tend to be ardent royalists. I dated a lass up in Warrington for a while, and they have a statue of Cromwell, which is kept in the garden of the local newspaper, it was in a more prominent position in the town, but the Council were quietly told to "move" it by Lizzies staff just before a royal visit she was due to make there, as she wouldn't be amused at seeing it. Don't see why, it wasn't a German Royal he gave a forced close shave to. 

As we have dipped into Ireland, Michael Collins seems like a guy with few nasty skeletons to taint the shine on his armour, though, being murdered so young, I suppose he didn't have much of a chance to start storing them up.


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## BAYLOR (Mar 6, 2016)

Oliver Cromwell  was puritan religious bigot and a throughly miserable  excuse for a human being.  He murdered King Charles and given what he did in Ireland doesn't make him a hero.


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## Calum (Mar 6, 2016)

Caledfwlch said:


> I didn't know anyone glorified Cromwell, but then, as a Welshman who has always read up on the history of the Celtic Nations, and owning an Irish stepfather, and an Irish Uncle on my paternal side, it may be that knowing what a brutal Monster the man was, I may have simply assumed everyone knew.



The public voted the saud as the 10th greatest man in British history. Not to mention that statue old wart face has outside Parliment. 

The Greatest Britons List •

Probably the biggest crime he commited was the use of crop burning against the Irish, as well as driving them off their land (Neither of which he employed against the Protestant Scots or English). The resulting famine and spread of disease killed far more people than the massacres at Wexford and Drogheda.


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## BAYLOR (Mar 6, 2016)

Calum said:


> The public voted the saud as the 10th greatest man in British history. Not to mention that statue old wart face has outside Parliment.
> 
> The Greatest Britons List •
> 
> Probably the biggest crime he commited was the use of crop burning against the Irish, as well as driving them off their land (Neither of which he employed against the Protestant Scots or English). The resulting famine and spread of disease killed far more people than the massacres at Wexford and Drogheda.



That makes him a criminal. And what about he did to Charles Stuart ?

 Edward Longshanks is on the list? Another miserable man .  He killed thousands of people in Scotland and ran roughshod over the place.


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## BAYLOR (Mar 6, 2016)

The Ace said:


> "Churchill," was a curse in our household, my grandfather and older uncles had been heavily involved in the General Strike, and subsequent martial law, and nobody had a good word to say about him.
> 
> Generations after his death, we can take a balanced view, but in his own lifetime, he was either a flawed hero or a complete b*st*rd.



A very flawed man, but if he had not  been Prime Minster 1940 to 45 I think the world be much different far more unpleasant place then it is now. Those 5 years saved the world from the Nazis.


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## Caledfwlch (Mar 6, 2016)

Calum said:


> The public voted the saud as the 10th greatest man in British history. Not to mention that statue old wart face has outside Parliment.
> 
> The Greatest Britons List •
> 
> Probably the biggest crime he commited was the use of crop burning against the Irish, as well as driving them off their land (Neither of which he employed against the Protestant Scots or English). The resulting famine and spread of disease killed far more people than the massacres at Wexford and Drogheda.



I bet half the people who voted barely knew a thing about who they were voting for, they put Diana & John Lennon in the top 10 ffs. There should be a basic intelligence test before being allowed to Vote. Even ignoring the brutality he committed, he didn't exactly do anything "good" either, just helped plunge the country into a vicious civil war, made himself dictator, and generally made life miserable.

There has to be an irony in them putting in the same list the Butcher of Ireland, along with John lennon, born at least an Irish Catholic. I suspect the sort of racist, bigoted halfwits who buy the Daily Mail are the only people who bother to vote.


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## WaylanderToo (Mar 6, 2016)

Caledfwlch said:


> There has to be an irony in them putting in the same list the Butcher of Ireland, along with John lennon, born at least an Irish Catholic. I suspect the sort of racist, bigoted halfwits who buy the Daily Mail are the only people who bother to vote.



are they really any worse than the holier-than-thou halfwits who buy the Gruaniad or Indy?


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## Narkalui (Mar 6, 2016)

Yes, the half wits who buy The Scum, The Murdoch Times, The (porn) Star, The Belly Laugh, The Nazi Express and The Nazi Mail are all worse than readers of The Guardian and The Independent.


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## Narkalui (Mar 6, 2016)

Any way.

There are only 3 Commonwealth soldiers to have received the VC twice. The first two were field surgeons in the First World War who both received their second VC posthumously. The third was New Zealander Charles Upham.

When war broke out in 1939 he was already a sergeant in the New Zealand T.A. but he insisted on enlisting into the regulars as a private soldier. He made sergeant by December 39, a week before sailing for Egypt.

Having earned his commission as 2nd lieutenant he won his first VC for acts of insane bravery and valour in Crete, he also got promoted to Captain. He received the bar to his VC during the First Battle of El Alamein for similar acts of insane courage and extraordinary valour. When the recommendation was made for Upham to receive this second VC George Six remarked to Major General Kippenberger "Does he deserve it?", Kippenberger responded "In my opinion Sir, Upham has won the VC many times over."

When presenting the second VC, apparently George VI was in such awe of this man he had absolutely no idea what he could say to him, so he just said: "You again."

Upham was captured and held in Colditz Castle where he was a serial escapee. His captors however had so much respect for him they refused to shoot at him when he did escape.  He even pole vaulted over the wall once.  At he end of his war he saw the allied troops bearing down on Colditz. Allied troops, having taken the the castle, found Upham escaped from his cell attempting to break into the armoury so that he could attack the Germans from the inside.

He finished the war as a Major.


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## BAYLOR (Mar 6, 2016)

Caledfwlch said:


> I bet half the people who voted barely knew a thing about who they were voting for, they put Diana & John Lennon in the top 10 ffs. There should be a basic intelligence test before being allowed to Vote. Even ignoring the brutality he committed, he didn't exactly do anything "good" either, just helped plunge the country into a vicious civil war, made himself dictator, and generally made life miserable.
> 
> There has to be an irony in them putting in the same list the Butcher of Ireland, along with John lennon, born at least an Irish Catholic. I suspect the sort of racist, bigoted halfwits who buy the Daily Mail are the only people who bother to vote.



There are some interesting choices on that list.


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## WaylanderToo (Mar 6, 2016)

Narkalui said:


> Yes, the half wits who buy The Scum, The Murdoch Times, The (porn) Star, The Belly Laugh, The Nazi Express and The Nazi Mail are all worse than readers of The Guardian and The Independent.


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## Caledfwlch (Mar 8, 2016)

Waylander old chap,

Yes, the "holier than thou" can be pains in the backsides, however at least no matter how annoying or daft they are, they are well meaning people, with empathy for others.
The Daily Mail and Freeman of the Land types are generally bigots, racists, homophobic, xenophobic, generally all round unpleasant people with no empathy, appear to be full of hate, and the Freemen of the Land section are absolute bastards, attempting to avoid paying Taxes and prosecutions when they are in criminal or other troubles, they have attempted to assault Magistrates, invaded and "seized" a Court Room in Birkenhead a couple of years ago, and because of their wrongful advice, they are causing people who are likely decent, but accidently ran into forums run by Freemen who charge for their advice, the poor person then goes to Court attempting to sue Bailiffs, and end up with massive legal costs to pay - one person acting on this advice ended up with £30,000!!!! as they were ordered to pay the Enforcement Firms legal costs.
During that case hearing, the Freeman the person paid around £1500 for advice and being accompanied to court, attempted to Assault the Enforcement Firms Barrister in a corridor!!

Not all Daily Mail readers are bad people, but the paper does attract a certain type of shall we say extreme "Alf Garnett" types.


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## WaylanderToo (Mar 8, 2016)

Oh don't misunderstand me - I'm no fan of the Daily Nazi (indeed I feel about the same level of contempt for that rag as I do the Mirror, the Express, and slightly more than I feel for the Gruan and Indy though I'll be honest and say that at least some of the stuff in the latter 2 is, generally, better written). 

The Bellylaugh has gone down-hill as has the Times. The sad thing is that papers reinforce positive/negative bias and play to their 'tribe' with little or no effort to actually report 'the news'. It appears, to me, to be opinion pieces so much so that when a paper actually _*does *_break a big story (The Mail WRT Stephen Lawrence, The Telegraph WRT the expenses scandal, The Guardian WRT Snowden) it's a massive surprise which is sad 

As an aside - is this a correction of the most inaccurate piece ever published?

Newspaper correction goes viral as people ask, "Was anything in this Guardian article correct?"


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## Cathbad (Mar 8, 2016)

WaylanderToo said:


> As an aside - is this a correction of the most inaccurate piece ever published?



OMG... that is hilarious!


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## Caledfwlch (Mar 8, 2016)

On the Guardian I mostly read the "Opinions" section, as to be fair to it, they have Opinion pieces from people of all sides of the political spectrum. They had a great one from a German guy, who is part of a new movement being formed to campaign and make the EU become democratic, so his article was part plea for Britain to stay in, and help fight the anti democratic elements of the EU because it if becomes democratic and answerable to the people, then it will become a great thing.

The bentness of the EU is incredible. Look how they fined Microsoft millions for packaging Internet Explorer with Windows, yet they totally ignore Apple, which has gone well beyond, they control every aspect, and if I understand it right, all software has to come via an app store, thus it is impossible to produce and sell Apple compatible software without paying Apple, totally ridiculous and totally ignored. People are screaming blue murder about Microsofts UMP plans for Windows 10, which would do the same as Apple, nobody could create and sell Windows compatible Software without paying microsoft to use the UMP store - Microsoft however will be forced down, it has happened before, and it will happen again, as if UMP goes ahead and becomes what some software engineers fear, Microsoft will be facing a massive battle from very powerful game companies and others.

Apple's fanbase dont appear to kick off about how locked down and anti competitive Apple are, and the authorities especially the EU don't seem to care, its mental. Yet, I bet if Microsoft attempts in any way to emulate Apples lockdown, the EU will go mad, and begin starting investigations and fining Microsoft millions again.

I suspect the people in the EU who deal with all this are Hipsters brainwashed into Apple ways of thinking, slaves to their Iphones, Ipads and Ipods..  a Journalist went under cover and got a job at an Apple Store in London, and said the Staff genuinely behaved like they had been brainwashed - during the opening of another Store in London, Journalists were trying to interview Staff arriving for work, and scary looking men in Suits would appear, and drag the employees off into the store. Apple's internal Security Group has been compared to the Gestapo for years, and the way they operate is very chilling - and if they are doing the same stunts at offices in the UK, they are likely breaking employment law.


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## Brian G Turner (Mar 8, 2016)

Caledfwlch said:


> Not all Daily Mail readers are bad people



The online edition is one of my regular daily reads, not least because it has news volume. I keep away from opinion pieces. 

Guardian, Independent, and Telegraph have become unreadable by their over-use of video inserts, which try to crash my browser if I open more than a couple of stories in tabs at the same time.


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## Caledfwlch (Mar 8, 2016)

Brian Turner said:


> The online edition is one of my regular daily reads, not least because it has news volume. I keep away from opinion pieces.
> 
> Guardian, Independent, and Telegraph have become unreadable by their over-use of video inserts, which try to crash my browser if I open more than a couple of stories in tabs at the same time.



What Browser do you use? I use Chrome and have the Adblock Extension which stops me suffering those woes - the other day I turned it off on Guardian just to see what I was blocking and it was awful!

The Minister for Culture is sticking his fat, brainless unwanted nose in, wanting to outlaw/criminalise adblock software claiming they operate like "protection rackets" so he clearly has no idea of what a protection racket really is, and if anyone could be said to be guilty, its Apple for what I mentioned in my last post.

The solution to losing revenue because of Ad Blockers, is not to try and ban them which would be totally unenforcable, but to speak to people, discover what is peeing them off about ads, ie video adverts you cannot stop, which lock up browsers if you have an older machine - until end of last year I was forced to use an ancient PC running XP, and even with adblocker, which didnt seem to work quite as well, though I guess XP support on chrome and extensions is going to be very limited, and the Walesonline website, run iirc by the Welsh paper, the Western Mail was totally unusable.

Google itself has the best advertising system, its unobtrusive, and does not get in the way, you just get some results marked "Ad" though as I have adblock I don't know what I am missing.

For fun, here is a Daily Mail Headline Generator - my fave is "Could Teenage Sex give the Middle Classes Cancer?"
Daily Mail-o-matic


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## Ray McCarthy (Mar 8, 2016)

Any headline starting with "Could", the answer is no.


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## Ray McCarthy (Mar 8, 2016)

Brian Turner said:


> Guardian, Independent, and Telegraph have become unreadable by their over-use of video inserts


Firefox setting now allows block Flash by default and then you can click to disable individual video
Noscript is needed (whitelist only the bits of a site needed) to speed up pages, block malware, trackers, and as a side effect blocks some ads.


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## Brian G Turner (Mar 8, 2016)

Even if I blocked Flash, etc, there's still not much by way of news content on the Guardian or Independent online front pages (or Al Jezeera, for that matter, which I also tried recently to read regularly). And the Telegraph, despite the joys of the Matt cartoons, simply covers some of the same stories that the Daily Mail goes into more depth into. Though the DM does have all those irrelevant _celebrity _stories...

I used to read the Telegraph regularly, but eventually got sick of the way it tried to demonise politics beyond the Eton-Oxbridge-Westminister career millionaire norm.


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## WaylanderToo (Mar 8, 2016)

Caledfwlch said:


> What Browser do you use? I use Chrome and have the Adblock Extension which stops me suffering those woes - the other day I turned it off on Guardian just to see what I was blocking and it was awful!
> 
> The Minister for Culture is sticking his fat, brainless unwanted nose in, wanting to outlaw/criminalise adblock software claiming they operate like "protection rackets" so he clearly has no idea of what a protection racket really is, and if anyone could be said to be guilty, its Apple for what I mentioned in my last post.
> 
> The solution to losing revenue because of Ad Blockers, is not to try and ban them which would be totally unenforcable, but to speak to people, discover what is peeing them off about ads, ie video adverts you cannot stop, which lock up browsers if you have an older machine - until end of last year I was forced to use an ancient PC running XP, and even with adblocker, which didnt seem to work quite as well, though I guess XP support on chrome and extensions is going to be very limited, and the Walesonline website, run iirc by the Welsh paper, the Western Mail was totally unusable.




just how do you manage to make an ad-blocker illegal?


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## Narkalui (Mar 9, 2016)

Just going back to the papers briefly and their reportage of actual news, The Mirror' s coverage of the junior doctors strike and Jeremy Cockney-Rhyming-Slang Hunt's attitude to them has been brilliant.


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## Ray McCarthy (Mar 9, 2016)

WaylanderToo said:


> just how do you manage to make an ad-blocker illegal?


You can't.
But SOME accept payment from companies to NOT block their adverts*. I'd not use those. That behaviour  could be made illegal, I think they should be allowed, but forced to tell users what they are doing.

I only use plug-ins that I have the settings for and that can be disabled from "phoning home."

[*Which is obviously related to a protection racket]


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## Caledfwlch (Mar 10, 2016)

Ray McCarthy said:


> You can't.
> But SOME accept payment from companies to NOT block their adverts*. I'd not use those. That behaviour  could be made illegal, I think they should be allowed, but forced to tell users what they are doing.
> 
> I only use plug-ins that I have the settings for and that can be disabled from "phoning home."
> ...



I just checked Adblock for Chrome's Settings, and I was right in what I thought - these companies pay to be put on a "whitelist" however you don't have to have the whitelist switched on, you can turn it off, there's also an option called "acceptable ads" which im guessing shows ads like googles which are not intruisive.


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## Caledfwlch (Mar 10, 2016)

WaylanderToo said:


> just how do you manage to make an ad-blocker illegal?



Well quite! that's why the idiot is being mocked. 

It is also why anyone who was fooled enough to install Windows 10 should look up the internet guides and turn off all the Spyware that Win10 has switched on as default, not to mention downloading adverts to show when your system is "asleep"

They could try and block all access to sites hosting Downloaders, which would cause millions of angry android phone, tablet, & PC Chrome users to be flooding the government because it would mean blocking access to Google Play.
Also, blocking access doesn't actually work. After Demonoid, Pirate Bay etc were blocked by all UK ISP's it took me about 5 seconds to get round the block.


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## galanx (Mar 10, 2016)

BAYLOR said:


> A very flawed man, but if he had not  been Prime Minster 1940 to 45 I think the world be much different far more unpleasant place then it is now. Those 5 years saved the world from the Nazis.



Inspirational, yes. But by the time he came into power Labour was soldly pro-war, as were a number of Liberals and Conservatives ( even though most Tories continued to support Chamberlain at first) so Britain would have kept fighting anyway. I recall one anecdote about a Churchill supporter early in the war arguing with a Labour MP that they had to agree with everything Churchill did, in order to keep Britain fighting; the exasperated MP replied "So what happens if he falls under a bus? We send a telegram to Hiltler saying 'We give in' ? "


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## galanx (Mar 10, 2016)

I asked my ESL students here in Taiwan to write an essay on a person they admire for their persistence; aside from the usual Edisons and Lincolns, one of my students picked as his hero Mitsuo Fuchida, the Japanese pilot who led the attacks on Pearl Harbor, Darwin,  the British naval base in Ceylon, and who was later injured at Midway.


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## galanx (Mar 10, 2016)

As for Cromwell, he certainly committed massacres in Ireland; on the hand, in spite of his personal tyranny, the rights of Parliament were upheld and the Stuart attempts to impose the Divine Right of Kings discredited.


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## Caledfwlch (Mar 10, 2016)

galanx said:


> As for Cromwell, he certainly committed massacres in Ireland; on the hand, in spite of his personal tyranny, the rights of Parliament were upheld and the Stuart attempts to impose the Divine Right of Kings discredited.



Aye, everything he did was to suit the Political Classes. The Rights and Sovereignty of the People should be first, not Parliament, and he didn't even afaik abolish the House of Lords, thus his behaviour was hardly in the interest of Democracy.

But then, I think the existence of Party "Whips" to be a complete abomination and something that actively harms democracy - an MP should vote according to what is dictated by his personal conscience, and what is right for his Electorate, instead they are forced to vote the way the Party wants, because the Parties exist only to benefit itself and its members needs, not the government, and certainly not the electorate. Parliament may well be Sovereign, but the Mighty Party is even more so.

Mind there are many reasons why the UK is not remotely a Democracy, and claims to be one of the oldest Parliamentary Democracies are a joke - given that until only 100 years or so ago 99% of the population were not allowed to vote. This Weeks ESA Benefit Cut scandal shows that the House of Lords is a massive waste of space and money, since despite being a second house, a determined government can override them.


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## WaylanderToo (Mar 10, 2016)

@Caledfwlch WRT the UK not being a parlimentary democracy... which countries are? AFAIK the only one that comes close is Switzerland?


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