# The Prisoner (1967-8 series)



## j d worthington (May 29, 2008)

Okay, I could be opening myself up for either a lot of pain or a lot of silence here (), but I was wondering if anyone would be up for a discussion of the old television program, *The Prisoner*, with Patrick McGoohan. I know this has had lots of discussion at various places over the years, but are any Chronites interested in such a discussion?


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## The Ace (May 29, 2008)

Can't stick around for the moment.  Be seeing you.


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## Foxbat (May 30, 2008)

I love The Prisoner (my Avatar here used to be the Pennyfarthing with sunshade). Not sure I understood it enough to give a meaningful discussion but I found it intriguing and very thought-provoking. 

Also (frighteningly) some of it's themes are still relevant today (as an example - the UK Government proposal to hold those suspected of terrorism for 42 days without charge). Just one step away from holding somebody indefinitely until they spill the beans (a la Prisoner) in my opinion.

Me? I'm the new Number Two


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## j d worthington (May 30, 2008)

Foxbat said:


> Me? I'm the new Number Two


 
Who is Number One?



The Ace said:


> Can't stick around for the moment. Be seeing you.


 
Be seeing you... but not for long.....

*sigh* Ah, well, I suppose it's six of one, half a dozen of another....


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## Foxbat (May 30, 2008)

j. d. worthington said:


> Who is Number One?


 
That would be telling.

You are number six.

On another note. I think the theme tune is one of the finest on any TV Show. Personally, I'd give the tune its very own subforum here. 

It's probably a good job that I'm not the boss.


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## Teutoniclegion (May 30, 2008)

where do we get dvd collection to watch this show. I have heard so much about it but have not the dvd collection


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## j d worthington (May 30, 2008)

Teutoniclegion said:


> where do we get dvd collection to watch this show. I have heard so much about it but have not the dvd collection


 
It's available through A&E here, anyway; either as a huge 10-disk set, or as smaller components:

The Prisoner


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## j d worthington (May 30, 2008)

Foxbat said:


> That would be telling.
> 
> You are number six.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, it's a theme you're not likely to forget. Interesting that Ron Grainer wrote two of the most memorable themes ever to come out of television: _The Prisoner_ and _Doctor Who_....


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## Foxbat (May 31, 2008)

j. d. worthington said:


> Yes, it's a theme you're not likely to forget. Interesting that Ron Grainer wrote two of the most memorable themes ever to come out of television: _The Prisoner_ and _Doctor Who_....


 
Didn't know it was the same person that created two such iconic themes....but that's why I come here. 

Anyway, without producing any spoilers for future Prisoner watchers, just what exactly was the meaning of the last two episodes in the series? I found them a bit confusing to say the least. The revelation of Number One's identity is something I have pondered over for many a moon but feel I have never fully grasped.


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## j d worthington (May 31, 2008)

Foxbat said:


> Didn't know it was the same person that created two such iconic themes....but that's why I come here.
> 
> Anyway, without producing any spoilers for future Prisoner watchers, just what exactly was the meaning of the last two episodes in the series? I found them a bit confusing to say the least. The revelation of Number One's identity is something I have pondered over for many a moon but feel I have never fully grasped.


 
Hooooooo, boy! Ask an easy one, willya???? Seriously, I don't think anyone has been able to definitively prove one particular reading is the correct reading for that final episode, though there are some things that seem pretty certain. And, from what I understand, that's precisely what McGoohan wanted -- people to debate, argue, discuss, and in general, think about what was being said here. Two things might, however, help, at least as far as "Fall Out" is concerned:

***WARNING: INTENSE SPOILERS FROM HERE ON OUT***



Spoiler



1.) McGoohan has been quoted as saying "Freedom is a myth".

2.) The fact that, unlike Leo McKern, Angelo Muscat, and Alexis Kanner, the name of the actor playing the main character is not given at the end of the episode (save in the final credits); instead, he is referred to simply as "Prisoner", and the final shots of him recap the opening shots of the character at the beginning of the first episode of the series, indicating a cyclical structure.


 
Personally, I read the final episode as confirming a theme given throughout the series: the eternal struggle between society and the individual; the social animal and the rebel; the forces of extreme conservatism and extreme change; something very akin to Moorcock's "Law" and "Chaos". And, of course, McGoohan's character is eventually revealed to represent both sides of that struggle, which is also hinted at very early on (see, for instance, the address for his flat in the opening credits for the first episode, "Arrival", not to mention the episode "Free for All"... or, for that matter, I'd argue various musical cues also act as clues to this). I would argue that it's that very struggle between the two sides of his nature that gives the series its dynamism, so that the final image does not become a "downer", but rather a statement that that battle to maintain a balance between the two not only is a never ending one, but if it ever were to end, the result would prove disastrous, no matter which side "won".

As for "Once Upon a Time" -- well, that one seems to have multiple themes going on, almost a recapitulation of the themes introduced throughout the series itself in concentrated form, while nonetheless maintaining an intensely forward dramatic thrust.


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## Foxbat (May 31, 2008)

umm err yes. I think that makes sense. 

Seriously though, yes I would agree that the recurring theme seems to be duality.

It also occurred to me that this whole series could be something of a metaphor for the rebellion of youth evolving into the very establishment that the rebellion is focused on.

It never actually occurred to me that there could be musical clues. I simply saw them as motifs. Oh well, I've been looking for a reason to rewatch this series. Looks like I've found one.


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## j d worthington (May 31, 2008)

Foxbat said:


> It never actually occurred to me that there could be musical clues. I simply saw them as motifs. Oh well, I've been looking for a reason to rewatch this series. Looks like I've found one.


 
Listen especially for "For He's a Jolly Good Fellow"....

Hadn't thought of it in the light you mention (although the bit with Nos. 48, 2, and 6 in "Fall Out" would certainly lend some support to that, I'd say). Not quite sure about that one, but as (following my post last night) I've decided to rewatch the series, I'll keep that in mind.

Another theme to keep in mind when watching the series (and which ties in with the revelation of No. 1) is that mentioned by the chess-playing ex-Admiral near the end of "Arrival": "We're all pawns, m'dear"....


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## Dave (Jun 13, 2008)

I might have to watch the Prisoner again. Too young to understand the nuances first time around, I did see it again in the early eighties - but before VCRs. I think you do need to re-watch it.


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## Vladd67 (Jun 13, 2008)

I have heard it argued that every week Number 6's question  Who is Number 1 is answered in the opening sequence. Watch it and see what I mean.
Who is Number One?
You are Number Six
Or read the above quote.


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## Ursa major (Jun 13, 2008)

Wasn't there a fan club of The Prisoner called "Six of One" (which may suggest the phrase, "six of one, half a dozen of the other")?


Whether this supports the idea of duality, or simply the idea that the programme could be understood in more than one way, I couldn't say.


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## Vladd67 (Jun 13, 2008)

There still is
click here
And to quote from their site
*
      6th June, 2008 - SIX OF ONE EXCLUSIVE - The 2009       mini-series of the The Prisoner will feature six one-hour episodes, all written by Bill       Gallagher (Clocking Off; Conviction; Lark Rise to Candleford). Sir Ian McKellen       (The Lord of the Rings; The Da Vinci Code) is in the role of Number Two and James       Caviezel (Deja Vu; The Passion of the Christ) plays Number Six. The producer is Trevor       Hopkins (Dracula; Agatha Christie: Poirot; William and Mary) and direction is by Jon Jones       (Cold Feet; Northanger Abbey; Diary of Anne Frank). Location filming is in Namibia and       Cape Town, with shooting commencing in the first week of August, 2008. The "pacy,       radical reinvention of the original show" is a joint production between AMC (American       Movie Channel) and ITV (UK).*


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## Foxbat (Jun 13, 2008)

Vladd67 said:


> I have heard it argued that every week Number 6's question Who is Number 1 is answered in the opening sequence. Watch it and see what I mean.
> Who is Number One?
> 
> Or read the above quote.


 
You know, I never actually interpreted the words in that way (in the form of an answer to the specific question), but now you mention it, it makes sense. Most people when answering such a question would emphasise the first word but that would give the game away too easily in this instance.


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## JoanDrake (Jun 20, 2008)

The Prisoner is nuts, and the whole show is a dream where he's realizing it. The Village is a mental institution, the captors doctors and orderlies etc. This is why the whole theme of "why did you resign?" is so important, (and never revealed). Even he doesn't know, but once he does he'll have recognized his real position.

Or is he? The last two episodes reveal that maybe he's the sane one, and the world is crazy

I can't wait to see the new one. Is it a remake? or do we get into what happened after he escaped.

I always thought that show "The Equalizer" was almost a sequel along those lines. (ie he moved to America, changed his appearance etc) There were some resemblances between the main character and the spy in _Danger Man_ and _Secret Agent_ who were supposedly him before he resigned


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## j d worthington (Jun 20, 2008)

McGoohan has been very firm, however, that Drake and No. 6 are not the same; they are two different characters -- and I can well believe that. No. 6 is, for one thing, much more intense and "raw" emotionally, while Drake was much more suave, understated, and would tend to very quickly adapt to the Village in a deep-laid plan to undermine it....

From my understanding, the new one is a complete rewrite of the original (I don't particularly like the term "re-invent" or "re-imagine"); meaning it has very little to do with it save, perhaps, basic concept. It is intended more as a spy thriller, without the allegorical aspects which (IMO) are among the things which have made the original such a powerful piece over the years.

By the way... for those familiar enough: How would you "read" the episode "Dance of the Dead"?....


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## Ursa major (Jun 20, 2008)

The Prisoner as a spy thriller, JD?

Didn't the producers see the original?


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## j d worthington (Jun 21, 2008)

Ursa major said:


> The Prisoner as a spy thriller, JD?
> 
> Didn't the producers see the original?


 
Rather resembles my own thoughts on the matter.... I guess they're just a little afraid of making their audience _*think*_....


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## Vladd67 (Jun 21, 2008)

The remake will not seem right without Portmeirion. It is such an unique place, and a lot smaller than you would think.


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## JoanDrake (Jun 21, 2008)

j. d. worthington said:


> McGoohan has been very firm, however, that Drake and No. 6 are not the same; they are two different characters -- and I can well believe that. No. 6 is, for one thing, much more intense and "raw" emotionally, while Drake was much more suave, understated, and would tend to very quickly adapt to the Village in a deep-laid plan to undermine it....
> 
> From my understanding, the new one is a complete rewrite of the original (I don't particularly like the term "re-invent" or "re-imagine"); meaning it has very little to do with it save, perhaps, basic concept. It is intended more as a spy thriller, without the allegorical aspects which (IMO) are among the things which have made the original such a powerful piece over the years.
> 
> By the way... for those familiar enough: How would you "read" the episode "Dance of the Dead"?....


 
Oh, what would he know  and besides, he had to say that for copyright reasons. Of course he's raw, you try being electrocuted by a weather balloon every other day

_Dance of the Dead_ had that strange woman #2, and that scene at the end where he tears out the teletype's guts and it just keeps on going, yes?? (sorry if I'm wrong here, don't have the DVD to check) 

That scene always scared the bejeebers out of me for some reason. 

Does that mean they're all dead?


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