# The Cathar heresy



## Patrician (Sep 23, 2007)

What do you think about it? 

I was first fascinated with them when we learned about them in school. I have recently read a book by Stephen O'Shea called _The Perfect Heresy_ and it really was an enjoyable read. I'm planing to move on to the _The Albigensian Crusades_ by Joseph R. Strayer as O'Shea recommends.
Anybody read it?


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## Mary Hoffman (Sep 23, 2007)

My next historical novel, Troubadour, will feature Cathars and teh Albigensian Crusade.

Whatever you do, don't read Kate Mosse's Labyrinth - truly dreadful.

Mary


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 23, 2007)

I didn't read it, but I did read the trilogy written by Michel Peyramaure, _La Passion cathare,_ 1990, historical novel recounting the war of the Albigeois through the eyes of an agnostic freedom fighter. 

At the time, the land of Languédoc fought against the French who came from the North and were considered no more than invaders. Religion was only one of the aspects of a struggle supported by a few local nobles who wished to be independent from Paris; very important, but not unique.

I visited almost all the castles the French expugnated: Minerve, Queribus, Termes...

The Cathar heresie stems from the Zoroastrian vision of Good and Evil in perpetual conflict (Ahura-Mazda vs. Ariman).

If God exists, she can't be other thing than good, than she can't have created Evil. Ergo, Evil is something independent from God, another entity that existed before creation.


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## Ursa major (Sep 23, 2007)

Mary Hoffman said:


> My next historical novel, Troubadour, will feature Cathars and teh Albigensian Crusade.
> 
> Whatever you do, don't read Kate Mosse's Labyrinth - truly dreadful.
> 
> Mary


 
Last year, a friend of mine who had had (through illness) a lot of time on his hands, lent me five of the books he'd bought. Four were by Dan Brown; the fifth was Kate Mosse's Labyrinth. To cut a long story short, I found Labyrinth to be a far poorer book than the Da Vinci Code (i.e. not at all good), and not a patch on Angels and Demons. (The other two Brown books were worse, but in their defence, neither was presented to the public as a superior read). Labyrinth didn't even have the page-turning pace of Brown's efforts. I was very disappointed; and pleased that I had not wasted good money on it.


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## Patrician (Sep 23, 2007)

Wow, I wasn't aware that so many fiction novels were written based on the Cathar heresy. Sure will try to grabe one. 



> I visited almost all the castles the French expugnated: Minerve, Queribus, Termes...



Oh, I'm so jealous! I want to see all those places...Minerve where Simon used La Malvoisine, the medieval Big Bertha, Carcassonne, Toulouse, Beziers where Arnold 'Caedite eos' Amaury had them all slaughtered...and above all Montsegur! *sigh*

The person I find as the most cool in the whole Cathar story is Roger Raymond, the count of Foix. If only there were more men like him in Occitania...


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 23, 2007)

Patrician said:


> Oh, I'm so jealous! I want to see all those places...Minerve where Simon used La Malvoisine, the medieval Big Bertha, Carcassonne, Toulouse, Beziers where Arnold 'Caedite eos' Amaury had them all slaughtered...and above all Montsegur! *sigh*


 
It was the only one I didn't visit. Pity.


Think of the number of people who died during the siege of Béziers! They say two hundred thousand people!




> The person I find as the most cool in the whole Cathar story is Roger Raymond, the count of Foix. If only there were more men like him in Occitania...



I agree. I had understood Raymond of Toulouse at first... That one...
But the Foix brothers were all right.


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## Mary Hoffman (Sep 24, 2007)

I first came across the cathrs in Montaillou by Emmanuel LeRoy Ladurie, first translated into English in 1980 and reissued around 2000 I think. The material was fascinating and I kept wishing he - or someone - had written a novel based on it. Well now I AM writing a novel about the Cathars but not that one.


If you look up Montaillou on Amazon you get quite a list of books on thsi subject. They were Manicheans, or dualists, as you say, regarding this world as evil. Their experience of massacre at the hands of the Northern French, who were allowed to confiscate their land and property,could be regarded as a vindication of their world view.
Mary


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 24, 2007)

Hi, Mary,

When do you plan on finishing your novel? Does it have a title already?

I called the Northern French "the French" because that is what the Languédociens called them.

They yelled: "Les François arrivent! The François arrivent!"


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## Patrician (Sep 24, 2007)

Giovanna Clairval said:


> It was the only one I didn't visit. Pity.
> 
> 
> Think of the number of people who died during the siege of Béziers! They say two hundred thousand people!
> ...



I'm sure you'll visit Montsegur one day. You are in France, it's the same country! 

It is a bit confusing with the names since it seems they were all called Raymond, the Languedoc nobles I mean.  Speaking of St. Gilles, he strikes me as a man just wanted to enjoy his life but got in the fracases of the time 

About Beziers- I thought that the general consensus speaks of aprox. 15-20 thousand people?


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## Patrician (Sep 24, 2007)

Mary Hoffman said:


> I first came across the cathrs in Montaillou by Emmanuel LeRoy Ladurie, first translated into English in 1980 and reissued around 2000 I think. The material was fascinating and I kept wishing he - or someone - had written a novel based on it. Well now I AM writing a novel about the Cathars but not that one.
> 
> 
> If you look up Montaillou on Amazon you get quite a list of books on thsi subject. They were Manicheans, or dualists, as you say, regarding this world as evil. Their experience of massacre at the hands of the Northern French, who were allowed to confiscate their land and property,could be regarded as a vindication of their world view.
> Mary




Well Mary best of luck with the novel, just let us know when you're finished!


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## Mary Hoffman (Sep 24, 2007)

Oh I will let you know but I haven't started yet! I've written the outline and got the contract and am supposed to deliver "in the Spring" so it will come out in 2009. It will just be called Troubadour and be published by Bloomsbury UK and hopefully USA as well, like the others.

Mary


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## Patrician (Sep 24, 2007)

Just baldly onward! The crys of Cathar martyrs will be heard in your book I am sure of it. Remember, no stoping you!


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 25, 2007)

The uprooting of the Cathar heresy


Or


The Crusade of the French to conquer Languedoc.​


EPISODE 1​


Remainder: Two languages developed from Latin, the langue d’oc and the langue d’oïl; both words mean “yes” (“oui” in French), because “yes” was “hoc il est” in Latin. The Northern people, pronouncing “hoc il” very quickly, ended up saying “oïl”.The people of the South said “hoc”. 
Therefore, "Languedoc" means “the language of oc”.


The year is 1119, Pope Callixte II goes to Toulouse in person to preach against the heresy, but he can’t do so and must content himself with a few excommunications. The bishop of Toulouse tries to have a few heretics burnt at the stake, but the mob frees the prisoners. The Holy See is worried.

The same sort befalls Bernard de Clairvaux twenty-eight years later. The crowd hisses and boos him. As he preaches in a church near Toulouse, the congregations walks out on him before he has finished.
Bernard walks out in his turn and tries to preach to an empty square. The good people lock themselves up in their houses and knock on their doors so loudly that the preacher’s voice is drowned in the noise.

A council is held in 1167 at Saint-Félix de Caraman, and the Cathars (from Greek *catharos*, pure) become organised. Raimon (not Raymond) de Toulouse accepts to carry out a perfunctory crusade against his loyal subjects. This crusade is just a delegation of bishops. But the inhabitants of Toulouse get angry. On this occasion Pierre Mauran is judged and condemned to  sacred journey to Jerusalem. Pierre Mauran, an elderly man from Toulouse, wealthy and well known—as well as appreciated by the people who nickname him “Saint Jean the Evangelist” comes back three years later to a cheering crowd comprising all the citizens. The people elect him “capitoul”, i.e. he becomes a magistrate, a “notable” in his town.

Rome seems to accept the fact that the Cathar heresy is spreading. That is… until Innocent III is elected pope in 1198. The new Pope does not condone the spreading of Catharism, and sends other legates; one of them is called Pierre de Castelnau, who will soon be known as one of the persecutors of heretics, but, for now, the legates try to persuade a hostile population.

The saint-to-be Dominique de Guzmann will fail in convincing the black sheep through "preaching by practising". The populace will beat him up more than once.


Our Pierre de Castelnau creates a coalition of lords from Languédoc in 1207. His intention is to have Raimon VI (son of Raimon V de Toulouse) accept the leadership, which the new Raimon refuses; Pierre excommunicates him. The pope, Innocent III, calls on the king of France, Philipphe Auguste, to intervene.

Pierre Castelnau sets forth to go see the Pope in Rome, when someone kills him. Raimon VII is accused of being the agent of this murder. The Pope asks Philippe Auguste to lead a crusade. The King refuses, for fear that the King of England, John Sans Terre, could take advantage of his absence to get stronger in the North; nevertheless he gives permission to his vassals to participate in a crusade.

It has begun now, and it won't stop until the South is aflame.

The year is 1209...

TO BE CONTINUED​


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## Patrician (Sep 25, 2007)

Giovanna Clairval said:


> The uprooting of the Cathar heresy
> 
> 
> Or
> ...




Interesting, whose book is that from?


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 25, 2007)

It's not a book , Pat. It's a _pot-pourri_ of things gleaned on the Internet along with reminiscences of other things I read in books.

But I'll look for references, because those are historical, recorded facts.

And sorry for the typos...


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## Patrician (Sep 25, 2007)

Oh, I see. You don't have to bother with references, I we read pretty much the same.

I used this quotation as a sig on my other forum some time ago, allegedly Domingo, future st. Dominic said these words:

"_For several years now I have spoken words of peace to you. I have preached to you; I have besought you with tears. But as the common saying in Spain goes, Where a blessing fails a good thick stick will succed. Now we shall rouse princes and preletes against you; and they, alas, will in their turn assemble whole nations and peoples, and a mighty number will perish by the sword. Towers will fall, walls be razed to the ground, and you will all of you be reduced to servitude. Thus force will prevail where gentle persuasion has failed to do so._

Some saint, ey?


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 25, 2007)

Patrician said:


> I used this quotation as a sig on my other forum some time ago, allegedly Domingo, future st. Dominic said these words:
> 
> _"[...] Thus force will prevail where gentle persuasion has failed to do so._
> 
> Some saint, ey?


 
Yeah. He was also (allegedly) a masochist. It would seem he did love to get beaten up when his preaching was not so well received. I can't remember where I read it. That's the problem when you don't take notes of what you read... although, in my defence I'll say that I didn't know I'd end up posting on this message board --- a place haunted by so literate people.

In French, Domingo is "Dominique", which is a unisex first name, like "Claude".
Hope I'm not upsetting any Dominic or _Cloud _
"she laughs at her own pun*


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## Patrician (Sep 25, 2007)

Giovanna Clairval said:


> Yeah. He was also (allegedly) a masochist. It would seem he did love to get beaten up when his preaching was not so well received. I can't remember where I read it. That's the problem when you don't take notes of what you read... although, in my defence I'll say that I didn't know I'd end up posting on this message board --- a place haunted by so literate people.




Yes, once while he was deep in cathar lands he encountered a group of peasants who recognized him. They asked him what would he do if they attacked him. This is what he said:

_I should beg you not to kill me at one blow, but to tear me limb from limb, that thus my martyrdom might be prolonged; I would like to be a mere limbless trunk, with eyes gouged out, wallowing in my own blood, that I might thereby win a worthier martyr's crown._

They left him alone.


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 25, 2007)

Patrician said:


> They left him alone.


 
Real sadists, they were.


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## Sephiroth (Sep 25, 2007)

I haven't got any pearls of wisdom to add to this thread atm, but I'm glad it's here.  The first time I heard about the Cathars, it made a big impression on my imagination.  Interesting discussion.......


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 25, 2007)

And, after dinner...

Episode 2 of

The uprooting of the Cathar heresy

​


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## Patrician (Sep 25, 2007)

Giovanna Clairval said:


> And, after dinner...
> 
> Episode 2 of
> 
> ...



When do you dine?  

I'll retreat to the inner sanctum of my bed soon, so you don't have to rush it.

Looks like you are all nocturnal creatures here...be you undead?


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## Sephiroth (Sep 25, 2007)

I'm Sephiroth, I don't die.  I exist in every fibre of every living thing.  

And Giovanna is the _Regina Latinae Felis_, a nocturnal creature.


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## Patrician (Sep 25, 2007)

That is Final Fantasy? Never played it.


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## Sephiroth (Sep 25, 2007)

Do you play video games?  If you play video games, I _insist _that you play FFVII as soon as you get the chance!  Even if you never play any of the others, the story in VII is absolutely spellbinding.......


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## Patrician (Sep 25, 2007)

Sephiroth said:


> Do you play video games?  If you play video games, I _insist _that you play FFVII as soon as you get the chance!  Even if you never play any of the others, the story in VII is absolutely spellbinding.......




Baldur's Gate is my favourite opium...I'll say something about it tomorrow. *yawn*

Night!


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## Sephiroth (Sep 25, 2007)

_Dobro veche_, dude.


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 26, 2007)

Hear hear! The story of the Albigeois continues...


The Crushing of the Albigeois​ 

EPISODE 2​ 

Remainder: _Occitanie_ is the name given to the area where Langue d'Oc was spoken, essentially 32 modern “départements” of Southern France. _Languedoc_, besides being the “Langue d’Oc”, is a traditional province of Occitanie; its capital is Toulouse.
_Venture soldier _(from Italian _avventura_, adventure, i.e., “as chance has it”): soldier of fortune.

Dramatis Personae: Arnaud d’Amaury, Pope Innocent III’s legate; Raimon VII, count of Toulouse, turncoat; Simon de Montfort, little noble without a fief, Raimon Roger de Trencavel, young viscount of Béziers and Carcassonne; Alix de Montfort, woman-at-war.

Now the crusaders are gathering in Lyon. It’s one of the biggest armies Europe has ever seen. The archbishops of Reims, Sens and Rouen—three among the most important cities of France at the time— various bishops of lesser towns and high nobles, including the duke of Burgundy, are at the head of 300,000 crusaders (hence my purpish mistake in one of my previous posts), French, Burgund, German, Norman and Flemish volunteers, venture soldiers, valets and vultures, follow, as in any other army. Few of them are crusading for the interest of the true faith. One of them, Simon de Montfort, wants to find lands for him to lord upon.

The new legate, Arnaud d’Amaury, leader of this motley crew, sets forth on his journey to the South. Raimon de Toulouse hastily puts red cross on white shield and joins the army.

The month is July, the year 1209. 

Thanks to Simon's act of contrition (he gets himself whipped in the cathedral of Toulouse before his frowning subjects) the county of Toulouse is safe; not so Béziers and Carcassonne, which belong to young Raimon Roger of Trencavel, vassal and nephew to Raimon VII, a man known for his tolerance vis-à-vis the heretics. Trencavel tries to imitate his uncle, but Amaury refuses to lift the excommunication from his head. Poor excommunicated Raimon Trencavel must defend his lands and entrenches (which is an anachronism) himself in Carcassonne. 

The siege of Béziers lasts only ten days. Inspired by the famous words uttered by Arnaud d’Amaury: “Tuez-les tous. Dieu reconnaîtra les siens (Kill them all. God will know his people)”, the army puts the city to fire and sword. Twenty thousand citizens will die. And Carcassonne is next. The viscount of Trencavel is captured and accused of treason. Two months later, young Trencavel is dead (dysentery, they say). Simon de Montfort inherits of his lands, mostly because the great lords of Burgundy and Nevers let him take such dubious spoils. In the meantime, torturers rip off heretics’ tongues and gouge out heretics' eyes. 

Leading another small army, Alix de Montfort rejoins her husband Simon, who has lost all those who, after finishing the ritual forty days of military service, have gone home to live their lives. The crusade continues.
In the springtime the citadels of Minerve, Termes and Cabaretz are taken, and then it is Lavaur's turn. Lady Géralda de Lavaur, who had met the enemy wearing armour, is killed and thrown down a well. The defenders, forty knights, are hanged. Four hundred heretics are burnt alive.

Now Arnaud d’Amaury, the Pope’s Legate, dares to threaten the city of Toulouse itself, but gives up after fifteen days. Why involve his person in an incertain siege when he controls most of Occitanie? The Southern nobles are excommunicated and stripped of their lands and titles for the benefit of French barons, who are—let us not forget this— strangers who speak a foreign language (at least for the peasants and the lowly people who live in the towns).

Simon de Montfort tries to exercise his domination over vanquished Occitanie.

And yet the Catharism is alive and threatens his image in the Pope’s eyes…



TO BE CONTINUED​


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## Sephiroth (Sep 26, 2007)

Fantastic!  I can't wait for more!  

My family's second home is in the Occitan region, I helped myself to a few leaflets about the Occitan language and culture while I was in the Mairie.


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 26, 2007)

C'est une terrible histoire qu'il ne faut pas oublier.
Il m'est fort aise d' savoir que vous l'avez aimée.


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## Sephiroth (Sep 26, 2007)

Yes, I liked it very much.  Although as you say, it is a terrible history, and a sad one.  History has so many of those stories to tell.  Another that sticks in my memory, far more recent, is the fate of the Vendéeans during the Revolution.  As you know, my people's history has had its share of tragedies (but I shall say no more about that here).  It is easy for me to empathise when I hear such stories from elsewhere.  And if we are all Europeans, then it _is _my history, too.  I'm not an insularist.  I feel just as much at home in France as I do here, somehow.


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## Ursa major (Sep 26, 2007)

It must be that auld alliance.

And it persists in the language, e.g. an echo of the construct "_ne_ ... _jamais_" being found in the phrase "I would _ne_ do that, _jimmy_".


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## Patrician (Sep 26, 2007)

Sephiroth said:


> _Dobro veche_, dude.



Morgen! 

Dobro veche means good evening, and laku noch good night.

I said I would say something about Baldur's Gate but there really isn't much to say, except it is *the best game ever!* 

I will try out FF7 than. It better be good! 



> Hear hear! The story of the Albigeois continues...
> 
> 
> The Crushing of the Albigeois
> ...



Good, good! Eagerly waiting for more...


Now that you mentioned Simons wife Alix, I find it very romantic that his wife brought him reinforcemets. I belive that her timely arrival saved his skin, once.
"Hi honey! Look what I brought you!" *giggles* 

That's a woman.


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## Sephiroth (Sep 26, 2007)

Ursa major said:


> It must be that auld alliance.
> 
> And it persists in the language, e.g. an echo of the construct "_ne_ ... _jamais_" being found in the phrase "I would _ne_ do that, _jimmy_".



LMAO!  

Patrician:

_Laku noch_, oh well, now I know!  Also, du spricht Deutsch, auch?  Typisch!  

I've never played Baldur's Gate, but FFVII isn't the same type of game at all.  There's never been a better story in a video game, IMO.  It's pretty ancient now, it was released in 1997 on the PS1, but it was a landmark in gaming history, which has inspired a movie and several spin-off games.


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 26, 2007)

Patrician said:


> Morgen!
> 
> Now that you mentioned Simons wife Alix, I find it very romantic that his wife brought him reinforcemets. I belive that her timely arrival saved his skin, once.
> "Hi honey! Look what I brought you!" *giggles*
> ...


 
Alix wanted a fief. Had she lived now, she would have nagged at Simon for him to have an advancement or a raise.

But she did lead detachments of soldiers.

Did you get the joke with "woman-at-arms"?


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## Patrician (Sep 27, 2007)

Sephiroth said:


> LMAO!
> 
> Patrician:
> 
> ...




It's not like I have a choice. We must learn at least 2 foreign languages in school. Third and fourth are optional. 

Than I must insist that you play Baldur's Gate! You will see than that there is a better story in a video game


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## Patrician (Sep 27, 2007)

Giovanna Clairval said:


> Alix wanted a fief. Had she lived now, she would have nagged at Simon for him to have an advancement or a raise.
> 
> But she did lead detachments of soldiers.
> 
> Did you get the joke with "woman-at-arms"?



I supose that is the reason that Simon was pretty good at submiting the Occitan nobles. He was more afraid of her wife than of them. 

What woman-at-arms joke?


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## Sephiroth (Sep 27, 2007)

Patrician said:


> It's not like I have a choice. We must learn at least 2 foreign languages in school. Third and fourth are optional.



*seethes with jealously*

Our education system gives us nothing worthwhile...... 



> Than I must insist that you play Baldur's Gate! You will see than that there is a better story in a video game


Now, that _is _fighting talk!!!  

I'd be up for playing it, if I can get my hands on a copy (money is very, _very _tight), but really....

*cough*

Really......

*cough, cough*

Are you insane?!


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## Patrician (Sep 27, 2007)

Sephiroth said:


> *seethes with jealously*
> 
> Our education system gives us nothing worthwhile......



I study Dutch as my third language, you know...*examines his fingernails*


> Now, that _is _fighting talk!!!
> 
> I'd be up for playing it, if I can get my hands on a copy (money is very, _very _tight), but really....
> 
> ...



A deal: I will play FF7 sometime this year, and you will play Baldur's Gate sometime this year. What say you?


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## Sephiroth (Sep 27, 2007)

Conditional on me having the money to buy it (which I might not), I will make that deal with you!


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## Patrician (Sep 27, 2007)

They sell the whole series here(originals!) for some ridiculous bargain price. If need be, I'll send you a copy for christmas to Scotland!


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## Sephiroth (Sep 27, 2007)

Then you _certainly _have a deal.


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 27, 2007)

That's what happens when you leave the boys alone: they talk of _games._
I should have posted the third episode of the Crushing of the Albigeois, but I just wrote a lengthy comment on Chaos versus Law in Moorcock's section.

Perhaps, after a ciggy, I can write it.

If the Cathar heresy still holds your attention, I mean.

_Men!_


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## Sephiroth (Sep 27, 2007)

So that's where you go when I've no idea where you are?  Hiding out in the Moorcock section?!  

I've never read his work, I assume you would recommend it?

And yes, post more of your saga!  It's riveting!  

Patrician's gone to his kip, so I promise the _man-_talk will end.


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 27, 2007)

I do recommend Moorcock!

Especially: the first series of Elric, the albinos. I'm sure you would love that character.

I also love the cycle of Corum; I adore the ones at the end of time, with Cornelius.

But Law/Chaos supplanting Good/Evil is a universal theme. You don't need to know the books to follow that discussion. I'd like to know what you think of it.

In the meanwhile, I'll try to put this HISTORICAL thread back into its tracks.

The third episode coming up in half an hour!


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## Sephiroth (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm all for it, since Good/Evil is played-out, IMO, and the best exponents of it are dead, anyway.  But shall we take this up elsewhere?

Meanwhile, I shall endeavour to furnish myself with some Moorcock at the first opportunity!  

*waits with bated breath*


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## Ursa major (Sep 28, 2007)

Patrician said:


> I study Dutch as my third language, you know...


 
* Imagines a school timetable with double Dutch on it. *

Well we have to do _something_ while waiting for all those well-crafted words to arrive from Paris.


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## Sephiroth (Sep 28, 2007)

Oh dear.... 

That's twice you've made me crease myself in this thread now, UM.  Cheers, keep it up!


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 28, 2007)

*The crushing of the Albigeois*​ 



*Episode III*​ 

Dramatis personae : Simon de Monfort; Alix de Monfort; Alienor of Toulouse; Pere (Pierre) II of Aragon “The Catholic”, Alienor’s brother; the Raimons of Toulouse (counts and exiles), Philippe Auguste (Philip the August of France); Louis, son of Philippe (the future Louis VII); Amaury, son of Simon and Alix. 

The year it is now 1213, when Alienor of Toulouse –-who is not the famous Alienor who married Henri of England, and died in 1204— calls her brother, Pere (Pierre) II of Aragon to come to the rescue of her battered county.
Pere II of Aragon, nicknamed “the Catholic”, does not approve of the growing ambitions dwelling in the heart of Simon and Alix de Monfort. No one can suspect the very Catholic king, who has just defeated the Saracens, to be a heretic. After an unsuccessful journey to Rome, where he fails to convince Innocent III, the Pope, that the crusade has been hijacked by the social-climbing couple, Pere's army rejoins the defenders of Toulouse. Yet, inexplicably, the outnumbered crusaders exterminate Pere’s warriors, this day of September 13, 1913. To crown this bad luck with numbers, the King himself is killed. Counts Raimon VI and VII of Toulouse flee to England.

The South is drowning in blood, but King Philippe Auguste (Philip the August) is busying himself with the consolidation of his realm. Once this objective achieved, he is the strongest king of Christendom. Three years later, he dispatches his son Louis –who will be known as Louis VII. The future king of France ratifies each decision taken by Simon de Monfort, who can finally enter Toulouse. In 1215, the same year, the Council of Lateran opens in Rome. The southern bishops support Monfort. The lands of Toulouse and Foix are now Simon’s lands.

Simon de Monfort is bathing in his own triumph, when Raimon (son of Raimon VII) disembarks in the port of Marseille and takes back one town, Beaucaire.
Insurrection breaks out in Toulouse. Raimon and his men march towards their dear city, alone against the King of France and the Pope.
Providential fog allows them to penetrate into Toulouse, unbeknown to anyone. They kill all the Frenchmen and conquer the city.

Simon de Monfort catches his death trying to retake Toulouse, the year 1218, on June 25. The _Chanson de la Croisade_ recounts that a woman killed him, hitting him in the head with a stone. He has been known as the Lion of the Crusade and the Soldier of God, and this is how he dies.

The son of Alix and Simon, Amaury, entreats the King of France to help him.

Will the King grant him another army?


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## Sephiroth (Sep 28, 2007)

Woo-hoo!  The saga continues!  

Ah, the Lateran Council rears its head.......

What is the exact significance of the flag, Giovanna?


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 28, 2007)

The _cross of Toulouse_ appears for the first time on Raimon VII's seal, in 1211.

There are several explanations:

1) Raimon VI used a similar cross on his shield when he left for the crusade _en Terres Saintes_. It would seem that, to attach the cross to the shield, twelve rivets were needed.

2) The _cross of Toulouse _is a pre-Christian solar symbol (like the _swastika_, originally a hooked wheel symbolising the rays of the sun, and also its movement and its energy coming from the element Fire, the element that initiates the matter, _autrement dit_, the strength of the spirit that creates things).

The seven-pointed star is a symbol of the Occitanist party and represents the seven provinces of the traditional Occitanie (without the Gascogne and the Limousin, for instance).


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## Sephiroth (Sep 28, 2007)

Ah, the Limousin, which would include today's Charente, yes?  It is the region where my parents live.  Certainly, today they consider their Occitan inheritance very important...

Thanks for the explanation!  

And for your wonderful narrative...


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 28, 2007)

This is just what the Occitanist party claims.
I am in no way supporting their view.
Others consider the Limousin and the Gascogne part of the Occitanie.

The real criterium is not merely geographical; it's the languange that counts. We have bits of Occitanie in Piemont and Ligury, where the Occitan is spoken in a few valley.

Charente is called the door of Occitanie, but it's not in the Limousin, methinks.

Do your parents live there around the year?


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## Sephiroth (Sep 28, 2007)

No, only for about three months, atm, because they are both teachers and can only go there when they are not working; but whenever they are off work, they go there.  Saint Adjutory is the name of the village, it's absolutely beautiful. 

I am guessing that they must have a linguistic link to the heritage, based upon what I could decipher of the things I read, but it is certainly on the fringe, geographically. 

But what a fabulous place.....and the people are so welcoming.....


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 28, 2007)

I used to teach too, as a side occupation in an already well-filled life. But I got bored because the only students who understood and participated in the discussions were Germans, Swedes and anything that is not French. My classes were conducted in Anglish, I must say. I was a professor for a few year in Dijon, which is a two-hour journey from Paris by TGV . I stopped teaching three years ago. The train was tiring-- The TGV shakes you and shakes you... Given that my brain is pea-sized, it was tossed around in my skull and I got headaches.


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## Sephiroth (Sep 28, 2007)

Your brain is hardly pea-sized, O Regina Latinae, to be honest, I'm surprised that such a weighty brain fits inside the cranium of a delicate human lady.  Didn't they used to say that women were too 'dainty' to be as intelligent as men?  If only they were around today.......

I have a story about the TGV, too, but it is slightly less sanitary.  Now, those trains are _damn _smooth compared to the ancient, rickety old things we have here, and as happens on a long journey, I needed to visit _la toilette_.  Normal enough, so far.  The problem arose when the _darped _thing decided to stop suddenly (I daresay it was the driver's decision), and, well, physics took its toll, gravity relaxed its grip.  _Downwards _became _upwards_, if you catch my drift?  

If there hadn't been one of those horrible hand-dryer thingys, I'd have been too mortified to come out of the toilet again until we reached Angoulême.


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## andyn (Sep 28, 2007)

I must say this is an interesting thread. Please do not stop with the historical breakdown of the tragic destruction of the cathars. I personally know very little on the subject, but have become fascinated with the history of the middle ages. Oh and Baldur's gate if your man enough otherwise stick to FF.


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## Sephiroth (Sep 28, 2007)

*bites his tongue*


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 29, 2007)

Patrician,

When I said that Alix de Monfort was a "woman-at-war" , it was a joke related to:

_man-at-war_, medieval term for "soldier"

and also, an afterthought,

_man-o'-war_, an armed navy ship.

Only a woman can make jokes like that about another woman.

*menacingly* Is that clear? 

Sleep, sweet sleep now (six "Es" there, good!)


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## Patrician (Sep 29, 2007)

Giovanna, I see that you are keeping up the good work, very nice writing! 

Since you are making a summary of the whole crusade, allow me to fill some parts with little bit more details if you don't mind.

For instance, the inexplicable defeat of king Perre (known to me as Pedro) II of Aragon...

As you said, he did not approve of Simons growing ambitions. Being the man of the match on July 16, 1212. near Las Navas de Tolosa where the Christian army won a crushing victory over the Moors, Perre became an untouchable paladin of the Church, a secular saint. It came as a surprise when he demanded that the crusade in Languedoc be suspended  immediately. He confronted Arnold Amaury on that matter, proposing to the pope that he would govern over all lands of Toulouse until Count Raymond's son attains manhood. He argued that Simon had overstepped himself, attacking lands over which Perre was suzerain, not infected with heresy, carving out a kingdom for himself. Perre had in mind a unification of Occitan- and Catalan-speaking lands under one monarch. He didn't like the idea of northern France taking the South...
The pope had written to Simon: _"The illustrious king of Aragon complains that, not content with opposing heretics, you have led crusaders against Catholics, that you have shed the blood of innocent men and have wrongfully invaded the lands of his vassals, the counts of Foix and Comminges, Gaston of Bearn, while the king was making war on the Saracens."_ It was an order to end the crusade.
	Amaury wasn't about to let the decade of his work be undone. He retorted that Perre never made any move in confronting heresy in his lands. And Simon had been doing precisely that. His work was not done.
The pope had to choose, between Perre and Simon and Amaury, between law of the land and the law of the Church. 
On May 21, 1213. he reinstated the crusade.

The two armies met near Toulouse, at the castle of Muret, lying on the Garrone. Simon has managed to gather some 800-1000 heavy cavalry and about 1200 infantrymen. He was outnumbered approx. 20:1.
It was September 11, 1213, and Simon had made his last will and testament that morning. He was riding to give out to give battle.There was some last minute diplomacy that day but to no avail. The time for talk was over. Simon spend the night with his confessor and Perre with his mistress.
	The next morning Perre summoned his council. Count Raymond of Toulouse was the only one who advised caution. Why not fortify their camp and wait for Simon to attack? He was ridiculed and put in charge of the reserve in case of emergency. Perre's  plan was simple: he let Simon enter Muret unmolested where he would have to choose between an inevitable defeat in a long siege, or venture out to attack against overwhelming odds. Simon chose to attack. _"If we cannot draw them a very long way form their tents, then there's nothing we can do but run."_ Those  were his words, supposedly. The northerners armed themselves and a collective blessing  had been given. They were ready for battle.
Simon's cavalry filed out a gate, forming three corps. They rode north of the castle, by the river bank, with Perre and the Occitans to their left. Perre led his cavalry into the plain, dividing it into two groups. Infantry was left behind, so the numbers were now 2:1 in Perre's favor. Simon's cavalry turned left and charged the first corps of the southerners. Stretched into a line, the first corps of Simon's cavalry, led by William of Contres, smashed into the southerners who reacted poorly to the charge. The melee was well under way when the second column of Simon's cavalry led by Bouchard de Marly made the second, decisive  blow to the disorganized southerners. They were already dispersing when the second corps of southern cavalry led by king of Aragon appeared. The disciplined crusaders of William and Bouchard re-formed their lines quickly, and charged Perre. (According to the chronicles, Perre changed armor with one of his knights before the battle) As the crusaders were hacking their way to the man wearing the king's armor, Perre revealed himself and shouted in the confusion, "I am the king!" Was it in defiance or admission of defeat we'll never know. He wasn't heard, and was killed.
Back in the southern camp Raymond, never being accused of braver, did nothing to aid the cavalry and the disaster was complete. The news of Perre's death soon spread and the army at the camp started to disintegrate, fleeing in panic. The third crusader corps, Simon's corps, hunted them down some time and then turned on to the citizen soldiery from Toulouse that was before the walls of Muret, harassing the besieged, having heard a fatally false rumor that the Simon's men have been routed by king Perre. I suppose they were somewhat surprised when they saw Simon and his knights  bearing down on them. The rest is an epic butchery, the lower estimation speaking of 7000 dead.... 

And that was the Battle of Muret.

And after lunch, a few quotations from the Council of Lateran...


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## Patrician (Sep 29, 2007)

The question of Languedoc received special attention at the Fourth Lateran Council. All of the players were there, except Simon de Montfort and, naturally, Cathar Perfects. The concerned parties were invited to a special audience. It was bishop Fulk who started the hostilities, attacking Raymond Roger of Foix for having heretics in his family and sheltering them. He then reminded the pope of the infamous massacre of the crusaders at Montgey:

_"And your pilgrims, who were serving God by driving out the heretics, mercenaries and dispossessed men, he has killed so many of them, slashed and broken and hacked them in two, that their bodies lie thick on the field of Montgey, the French still weep for them, and it is upon you that the dishonor falls! Out there at the gateway rise the moans and cries of blinded men, of the wounded, of the men who have lost their limbs or cannot walk unless someone leads them! He who broke those men, maimed and tortured them, does not deserve ever to hold land again!"_

Raymond Roger had somewhat different opinion of the matter and he spoke directly to the pope:

_"Those robbers, those traitors and oath-breakers adorned with the cross who have destroyed me, neither I nor mine have laid hold on one of them who has not lost his eyes, his feet, his fingers and his hands! And I rejoice to think of those I have killed and regret the escape of those who got away."_

Right in front of the pope...what a man... He turned than directly on Fulk:

_"And I tell you that the bishop, who is so violent that in all he does he is traitor to God and to ourselves, has gained by means of lying songs and beguiling phrases which kill the very soul of any who sing them, by means of those verbal quips he polishes and sharpens, by means too of our own gifts through which he first became an entertainer, and through his evil teaching, this bishop has gained such power, such riches, that no one dares breathe a word to challenge his lies...once he was elected bishop of Toulouse, a fire has raged throughout the land that no water anywhere can quench, for he has destroyed the souls and bodies of more than five hundred people, great and small . In his deeds, his words and his whole conduct, I promise you he is more like Antichrist than a messenger form Rome."_

The pope had heard enough, and headed for his private quarters. A chronicler has one of Roger Raymond's nephews remarking: _"There now, haven't we done well? We can all go home, for we have driven the pope indoors."_  Heh...

When he thought for a while, Innocent suggested that only the lands and goods of proven heretics be passed to Simon de Montfort and the rest be returned to their former owners.
The southern clergy protested, and Fulk stepped forward:

_"My lord, true pope, dear Father Innocent, how can you covertly disinherit the count de Montfort, a truly obedient son of holy Church, one who supports yourself, who is enduring such wearisome strife and conflict and is driving out heresy, mercenaries and men of war? Yet you take from him the fief, its lands and castles, he had won by the cross and his own bright sword, you take away Montauban and Toulouse if you separate the lands of heretics from those of true believers...and that is not the smaller share. Never have such cruel sophisms or such obscure pronouncements been declared, nor such absolute nonsense!"_

The whole of Languedoc's clergy agreed with him, and Innocent couldn't defy the clergy of a whole province, pope or no pope. He was then reminded that the mother of young Raymond (the son of the count of Toulouse) was Joan of England, whose dowry included some lands in Provence. I suppose Innocent was grateful for that fact. His verdict was that Simon can keep all the lands of St. Gilles and the Trencavels save the mentioned possessions in Provence which went to the young Raymond...

There.


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## Patrician (Sep 29, 2007)

Ursa major said:


> * Imagines a school timetable with double Dutch on it. *
> 
> Well we have to do _something_ while waiting for all those well-crafted words to arrive from Paris.





Imagine 3 English lessons a week, 2 German, 4 Croatian, 3 Latin, 3 Greek and 2 Dutch. That's just the languages, not to mention the rest dozen or so subjects...what you get is school on Saturday. 



> _Patrician,
> 
> When I said that Alix de Monfort was a "woman-at-war" , it was a joke related to:
> 
> ...



 
Speaking of jokes, do you know the one with Google and 'French military victories' ?


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 29, 2007)

Amazing posts, Patrician !

The battle was bracing, and the Lateran council, with those quotations of yours, made me want to travel back in time and shout at the southern clergy, holding a tommy gun (_I_, the pacifist, the mediator...).

And no, I don't know the joke.

*waiting...*


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## Patrician (Sep 29, 2007)

Some time ago, if you hit google with 'french military victories' google would hit you back with this, which would lead you to this amusing page


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 29, 2007)

Great! great! I bookmarked it. 

About one of the lost wars, the departure from Algérie.

I often pass through a subway station in Paris, where a brass sign reminds the indifferent traveller of the killing by the police of ten street demonstrators who protested against the way the government was dealing with the Algerian problem. One of the killed guys was sixteen.
The police opened fire on a peaceful demostration.

The film by Gillo Pontecorvo "La bataille d'Alger", _Leone d'Oro_ at Venise Film Festival in 1966, was forbidden in France the same year (accidentally, also the year of the killing in the streets of Paris), and censored again in 1971, to be finally released only in 2004 (!).


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## Sephiroth (Sep 30, 2007)

Nice posts, Patrician, I see what you mean when you say you haven't been _totally _idle.  

Like I can talk....... *looks gingerly at the pile of books beside him*


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## Patrician (Sep 30, 2007)

Hey Giovanna, have you heard Francis Cabrel's song _Les Chevaliers Cathares_? Very touchy, it used to bring tears to my eyes...


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 30, 2007)

It's a bit long, but I can't resist posting it.

*Les Chevaliers Cathares*, by Francis Cabrel



Les chevaliers Cathares
Pleurent doucement
Au bord de l'autoroute
Quand le soir descend
Comme une dernière insulte
Comme un dernier tourment
Au milieu du tumulte
En robe de ciment
La fumée des voitures
Les cailloux des enfants
Les yeux sur les champs de torture
Et les poubelles devant
C'est quelqu'un du dessus de la Loire
Qui a du dessiner les plans
Il a oublié sur la robe
Les tâches de sang
On les a sculptés dans la pierre
Qui leur a cassé le corps
Le visage dans la poussière
De leur ancien trésor
Sur le grand panneau de lumière
Racontez aussi leurs morts
Les chevaliers Cathares
Y pensent encore
N'en déplaise à ceux qui décident
Du passé et du présent
Ils n'ont que sept siècles d'histoire
Ils sont toujours vivants
J'entends toujours le bruit des armes
Et je vois encore souvent
Des flammes qui lèchent des murs
Et des charniers géants
Les chevaliers Cathares
Pleurent doucement
Au bord de l'autoroute
Quand le soir descend
Comme une dernière insulte
Comme un dernier tourment
Au milieu du tumulte
En robe de ciment


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## Patrician (Sep 30, 2007)

And this is the Eng. translation for those who don't speak French. Like me.

The Cathar knights
Cry gently,
By the roadside
As the day is dying.
As a last insult,
As a last torment,
They are lost the tumult,
Enrobed in cement.

The smoke of the cars,
Stones of the children,
Eyes on the fields of torture,
And dustbins in front.

It is somebody of the top of the Loire
Who had to draw the plans,
It forgot on the dress,
Tasks of blood.

One carved them in the stone
Who broke their body,
The face in dust
Of their old treasure.
On the large panel of light,
Tell also their death,
The Cathar knights
You still think.

With due respect with those which decide
Past and present,
They have only seven centuries of history,
They are always alive.
I always hear the noise of the weapons,
And I still often see
Flames which lick walls,
And of the giant mass graves.

The Cathar knights
Cry gently,
By the roadside
As the day is dying.
As a last insult,
As a last torment,
They are lost the tumult,
Enrobed in cement.


I hope that the translator didn't savage it too much.


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## Ursa major (Sep 30, 2007)

Patrician said:


> And dustbins in front.


 
Ah, it reminds* me of those long lost days (before the wheelie bin and the black plastic bin bag), when urchins* used dustbin lids as shields as they pretended to be Knights of Old. 

* these words are used for effect; I'm not _that_ old. (Am I? )


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 30, 2007)

Good translation, Pat.

Just one detail: 
_tâche_ with a circumflex accent is "task"

_tache _without an accent is "stain".



"_Someone from the North_ (to the north of the Loire, which traditionally draws a line between North and South. Btw, the Romans said that one had to be mad to live above the Loire-- because of the bad weather) _forgot bloodstains on their clothes_.


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 30, 2007)

*The crushing of the Albigeois*​ 



*Episode IV*​ 


*And now, the conclusion*​ 

In the previous episode...

Simon de Monfort is dead and his son Amaury is overwhelmed. When things are getting too hard for him, Amaury begs the King of France to help him keep the lands his father got by killing or exiling their lords. Of course, defence of the true religion continues to be the official Cause.

The King, Philippe August, sends a strong army south, for the second time. 

The city of Marmande stands up to Prince Louis and is crushed. All the inhabitants, five thousands of them, are put to the sword, but Carcassonne holds on and sends Louis, defeated, back to his papa in the North.
Now, the Occitans retake towns and fortresses. The Cathars find their homes again.
Amaury de Monfort loses heart and gives up his rights on the land his father and mother had so fairly obtained. The new king, Louis VII, now owns all the southern provinces. The year is 1224.


This opens the road to the annexing of Occitanie to the French Crown. 
Raimon VII is excommunicated, a tradition in his family.
Louis VII puts a cross on his shield and organises the second Royal crusade.
Toulouse is under siege but resists. The French army settles in the country where cicadas sings, and methodically burns down crops and trees, kills livestock and cuts down the vines.
The people experience famine and complete disheartenment.


Raimon VII, count of Toulouse, sets out to negotiate.
In Paris, the 12 of April, in front of Notre Dame, Raimon confirms the treaty he has already signed in Meaux. Isabella de Castilla, as regent, ratifies the agreement. Raimon’s only daughter will marry one of Louis’s brothers.

These are the words sealing the treaty, “After my death, Toulouse and its territory will belong to the brother of the king, who will have married my daughter, and to their children, and if there were to be none of them, or if my daughter dies without children, they (Toulouse and its territory) will belong to the King and to his successors, thus excluding my other children, and in such way that only the King’s brother and my daughter’s children will be the heirs.”


In 1229 the crusade against the Albigeois is over. Over the years, the political reasons and the perspective of annexing the Languedoc had prevailed over religion.
There is an important effect to this. In spite of the destructions, the killing of tens of thousands in the fires of Minerve, Lavaur, Montségur and Marmande… the Cathar heresy, fuelled by the conduct of the crusaders, is still thriving out there. 


Louis VII is organes the repression of the Cathar faith, with a ruling that will have so many consequences for European history.


“We, Louis of France, declare and command that our barons and officers most thoroughly endeavour to expurgate our lands of the heretics and the corruption of heresy. We order that those lords and officers make the most diligent efforts to seek and expose the heretics.”

The King’s ruling sounds the death knell of the Cathars.

The search for the heretics needs a new spiritual police.
This is how the Inquisition begins.

But this is another story.


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## Sephiroth (Sep 30, 2007)

Thanks, Giovanna.  It's an appropriate post to be your 250th!  

But what a terrible ending...or should I say beginning?


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## Giovanna Clairval (Sep 30, 2007)

Thank you, darkest angel.

I hadn't noticed it was the 250!

Have you begun working on the Treason Meals thread?

I haven't...


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## Sephiroth (Sep 30, 2007)

*sigh*

No, me neither, I'm afraid.  Still finishing this _minute _treatise on the development of agriculture for my course, _so _few words allowed.......

It'll have to be finished tomorrow, or Tuesday at the very latest.  

Have you found a second meal for your pen?  I haven't, yet...


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## Patrician (Oct 1, 2007)

Sad ending Giovanna, sad...I'll write something about Montsegur and it's fall, and on Belibaste...

Treason meals thread? That's bound to be good!


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## Neville Longdubat (Oct 2, 2007)

Hi, I'm doing some research into the Cathar Crusades and I read something about the alternative motives for them, i.e. money, power etc. opposed to just heresy. Does anyone know anything about this/ know where I can find out more as I am finding very difficult to locate info on it!! Thanks


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi, Neville.

My previous posts (4 episodes, _The Crushing of the Albigeois_) clearly state that the reason why the Cathars were persecuted in the first place is to abscribe to other reasons than religion.

Be more specific in your question and we will try to help as much as we can.


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## Sephiroth (Oct 3, 2007)

Ah, you're back.  Good.  

I have written one of my two pieces for the thread, and the other one should not take _too _long, since it is merely a slight expansion of what I posted in Patrician's thread.  How are things going for you?


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 3, 2007)

See that now ye'v finish'd yer assignment ye can write important things.

Ah haven't written meh  "Murder in Ravenna", but, as soon has yee 'ave posted yers, Ah'll post comments an' then Ah'll post moine.


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## Sephiroth (Oct 3, 2007)

You make a _strange _sounding Scot!  

Well, I'm just cooking some fishy fingers, and at the same time I shall add a little more body to the Scottish story, since it was pretty brief the last time.  And then I'll be ready to post them both.  I was thinking I will post one, and then let you post one, and then post the second one?  Because I think one story per post would be best, since it might be too long a post if I put them both together?

Oh, and do you know any Latin verse pertaining to the death of Claudius?

Just a few lines, I mean, for the opening...


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 3, 2007)

Here's the English translation of Seneca's _Apocolocyntosis_
a satyrical oeuvre written by S after Claudius's death.
It means "pumkinfication". The dead emperor goes to heaven. Augustus sends him to hell a-flying and then Vulcanus transforms him into a slave.

I have a passage in Latinus somewhere. Looking for it now.


Apocolocyntosis


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 3, 2007)

I think this passage could be what you're looking for. A bit of it, not all, of course.
Here's the thing.

[...] et iratus fuit uxori et suspendit illam: numquid occidit? Tu Messalinam, cuius aeque avunculus maior eram quam tuus, occidisti. 'Nescio' inquis. Di tibi male faciant: adeo istuc turpius est, quod nescisti, quam quod occidisti. C. Caesarem non desiit mortuum persequi. Occiderat ille socerum: hic et generum. Gaius Crassi filium vetuit Magnum vocari: hic nomen illi reddidit, caput tulit. Occidit in una domo Crassum, Magnum, Scriboniam, +Tristionias, Assarionem,+ nobiles tamen, Crassum vero tam fatuum, ut etiam regnare posset. Hunc nunc deum facere vultis? Videte corpus eius dis iratis natum. Ad summam, tria verba cito dicat, et servum me ducat. Hunc deum quis colet? Quis credet? Dum tales deos facitis, nemo vos deos esse credet. Summa rei, p. c., si honeste [me] inter vos gessi, si nulli clarius respondi, vindicate iniurias meas. Ego pro sententia mea hoc censeo:" atque ita ex tabella recitavit: "quandoquidem divus Claudius occidit socerum suum Appium Silanum, generos duos Magnum Pompeium et L. Silanum, socerum filiae suae Crassum Frugi, hominem tam similem sibi quam ovo ovum, Scriboniam socrum filiae suae, uxorem suam Messalinam et ceteros quorum numerus iniri non potuit, placet mihi in eum severe animadverti, nec illi rerum iudicandarum vacationem dari, eumque quam primum exportari, et caelo intra triginta dies excedere, Olympo intra diem tertium." Pedibus in hanc sententiam itum est. Nec mora, Cyllenius illum collo obtorto trahit ad inferos, [a caelo]

Anglish translation here:

[...]and once he fell in a rage with his wife and strung her up: did he do any killing? You killed Messalina, whose great-uncle I was no less than yours. 'I don't know,' did you say? Curse you! that is just it: not to know was worse than to kill. Caligula he went on persecuting even when he was dead. Caligula murdered his father-in-law, Claudius his son-in-law to boot. Caligula would not have Crassus' son called Great; Claudius gave him his name back, and took away his head. In one family he destroyed Crassus, Magnus, Scribonia, the Tristionias, Assario, noble though they were; Crassus indeed such a fool that he might have been emperor. Is this he you want now to make a god? Look at his body, born under the wrath of heaven! In fine, let him say the three words [14] quickly, and he may have me for a slave. God! who will worship this god, who will believe in him? While you make gods of such as he, no one will believe you to be gods. To be brief, my lords: if I have lived honourably among you, if I have never given plain speech to any, avenge my wrongs. This is my motion": then he read out his amendment, which he had committed to writing: "Inasmuch as the blessed Claudius murdered his father-in-law Appius Silanus, his two sons-in-law, Pompeius Magnus and L. Silanus, Crassus Frugi his daughter's father-in-law, as like him as two eggs in a basket, Scribonia his daughter's mother-in-law, his wife Messalina, and others too numerous to mention; I propose that strong measures be taken against him, that he be allowed no delay of process, that immediate sentence of banishment be passed on him, that he be deported from heaven within thirty days, and from Olympus within thirty hours."


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## Sephiroth (Oct 3, 2007)

Ah, yes I know the _Apocolocyntosis _but couldn't find a translation of the original text.  Thanks!


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 3, 2007)

I selected the above because here Augustus explains why Claudius handsomely deserves to be banished from heaven.

He killed his wife Messalina, and... and...

Not bad, huh?


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## Sephiroth (Oct 3, 2007)

Excellent, yes.  But poor Claudius, posterity has been cruel to him......

Ah, now I have to choose a snippet to use...

I mean, Messalina, she.....wasn't very nice.....


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## Mary Hoffman (Oct 11, 2007)

Dear Giovanna, Patrician and Sephiroth - may I make a plea not to wander off the Cathar topic?

This thread has been SO useful to me - particularly Giovanna's 4-part history and Patrician's addenda - that I'd be sad if it got diluted by other things.

Many thanks

Mary


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 11, 2007)

Mary, forgive us Spammers....

I'm posting something serious in a few minutes (not that Spamming is not serious, but... well...)


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 11, 2007)

*The Cathar Heresy*​ 




*# 1 *
*A Nail in the Catholics’ Coffee*​ 



*The Various Appellations of the Cathars*

The Cathares called themselves _Bons Hommes_, _Bonnes Femmes_ or _Bons Chrétiens _(Good Men, Good Women or Good Christians). The Inquisitions called them “Parfaits”, Perfects (an adjective used as a noun). This last term stands for “Perfect Heretics”, meaning “those who have received the sacrament called _consolamentum_, the imposition of hands”. The _Parfaits _preached, which distinguished them from their congregation.

*Two Eternal, Battling Principles: God is All Good; Evil is Evil and That’s All*
The Cathares’ religion was dualistic in essence, albeit they never explicitly referred to Mani (Manichaeism). Their heresy—as Rome called it—had its roots in the search for the original sense of the Scriptures. The main source of inspiration was John’s gospel.

The principles of *Good* (God) and *Evil* are eternal. _Good_ is the creator of everything that is perfect. _Evil_ hijacks the spirits that were good in the beginning, and is the creator of material, physical things. All that is visible is corruptible. 

*Ideas and Phenomena in Plato’s Philosophy: Unity Against Duality*
Here I will make a little digression about the correspondence of the Cathares’ visible world with the world of _phenomena_ as opposed to the _intelligible _word in Plato’s philosophy. This duality of the world is only apparent because, according to Plato, the visible world is an emanation of the world of the _Ideas_—hence the word “intelligible”. The Ideas are perfect and eternal, while the objects and beings that exist in the world of _phenomena_ (meaning “that which happens”) are pale copies of the Ideas. According to Plato, everything is Good, and the supreme being can only be perfect and good. Then—and this is different from Manichaeism—all beings are fundamentally good, and evil _does not exist as a separate entity._ Evil is the product of human _choices. _


*And... the Catholics Agreed with Plato*
Plato’s philosophy of non-dualism (cf. Buddhism) is very important because it inspired the highest vision of Christian thinkers. When I say “highest”, I am not emitting a judgment on the value of this doctrine. What I am saying is that all the Doctors of the Church shared Plato’s vision, through the influence of Neo-Platonicists (Plotinus, a non-Christian philosopher of the 3 th century, was the father of Neo-Platonicism). Amongst the Christian thinkers, we must count Augustine and Pseudo-Dennis the Areopagite, an author who influenced the Christian thought up to the 16th century.


*The Devil and the Catholics*
But, a second, more popular, belief is the existence of an adversary to God, named Satan or the Devil, who eternally struggles to steal souls from salvation. Another Doctor of the Church, Thomas da Aquinas (called “the Doctor of the Angels”) went to great length to explain how the demons were good in the beginning, although, possessing free will, they made evil choices, corrupting thus their originally perfect soul. This was a learned (and neo-Platonicist) attempt to justify the existence of Satan and his legions as eternal opponents to God, whom the Pseudo-Dennis called “the Good”, in the Platonicist tradition.


Well, that was a lengthy digression. I wrote it because I would like to underline the fact that the Catholic vision, in its learned version, excluded the existence of Evil _per se_, whilst the Catholic beliefs held by the masses tended to be much more dualistic.

Let’s say that, besides other considerations that we will see in the next instalment of The Cathar Heresy, this problem of Good and Evil was a nail in the Catholics' coffee. Well, coffee came to Europe in the 17th century… A nail in their wine, then.



In the next post, we will examine the Cathar heresy with regard to its interpretation of the Scriptures—John first of all.

Cathar Fortresses and The Sacking of Béziers (1209)


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## Mary Hoffman (Oct 11, 2007)

That's wonderful, Giovanna!

And of course members of Chronicles are not capable of spam, since you are all legitimately here and entitled to write what you wish. Maybe, since it was a sort of relish to the main dish, it should be called Chutney instead of Spam?

Mary


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## JDP (Oct 11, 2007)

The guy at the back of the crowd in that picture seems to be wearing Calvin Klein underpants. I'm quite happy to take this picture as conclusive evidence of time travel.


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 11, 2007)

*Jdp*, I admit to thinking the same.


*Mary*, what would we be called then, C_hutners?_


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## Sephiroth (Oct 11, 2007)

*is _definitely _a Chutner*





And regarding the Calvins, I won't say I didn't have a chuckle.......



Giovanna, your knowledge is formidable.


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## Mary Hoffman (Oct 11, 2007)

Chutners let it be and that Calvin Klein idea was certainly a spoonful of relish!

Mary


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## Patrician (Oct 12, 2007)

I said I would write something about Montsegur and the last Cathar, Belibaste, but that will have to wait because I'm going to Greece this evening.

But Gio is doing all the work I see, and doing it good. But you have not mentioned the obscene kiss 

For the Cathars, if I remember correctly, the world was not the work of the good god, but of the evil one. All things material were corrupt, therefore irrelevant to salvation. The God Cathars worshiped waas a god of light, of the invisible, ethereal, the spiritual domain. They belived that they had to renounce the material and lead a life of self-denial, less they will be constantly reincarnating on this world, the evil god's handiwork. So naturally they found the Curch to be a false one, proving with it's riches that it belongs to the material world.
This is a great quote of Arnold Hot, a Cathar Perfect who lost his temper on a debate with clergy:

_Roman Church is the devil's church and her doctrines are those of demons, she is the Babylon whom St. John* called the mother of fornication and abomination, drunk with the blood of saints and martyrs...neither Christ nor the apostles has established the exsisting order of the mass"_

*not the evangelist but John of Patmos the mystic who authored Relevations

They also allowed women to become Perfect. A nobleman in one life could be milkmaid in the next so why should sex matter?
The word cathar is some German play on words regarding the obscene kiss. The obscene kiss is some prank that the church made up saying that the cathars had some ritual where they kissed a cat's...rear end.  Along with eating ashes of dead babies...

And now I got to go


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 12, 2007)

Good journey, Patrician!

And you are right about John of Patmos. 

There were three John: the apostle, the evangelist, and the man who wrote the Apocalypse (which means "Revelation", and not "Catastrophe" as many think). This statement is based on the study of the style and the choice of words. As for the Evangelist, we know that John's gospel was written later on. Off the top of my head, about 70 years after Jesus.

I'll post the second instalment tonight.


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 29, 2007)

*The Cathar Heresy*​ 
*Or*​ 
*Good versus Evil (a nail in the Catholics’ coffee)*​ 


*EPISODE 2*​ 

*Return to the Scriptures*

The Cathars seek the original message of the Scriptures, especially John’s gospel and the book of Revelation, which was written by another John, by the way.


The principle of Good pre-exists.
Good does not know Evil because the latter emanates from Nothingness (_nihil_) and Good cannot fight against Evil without changing its own primordial nature. The Evil principle is victorious in our time, the _seculum—_time as humans beings experience it, as opposed to the eternal Time. But, through victory, Evil loses, and loses for eternity.


The two principles do not share the same nature, nor do they possess equal strength.


*A Fundamental difference between Catharism and Catholicism.*


The Cathars believe that God endures Evil, but never punish anyone for it. For the Catholics, God is the _cause_ of the Evil, with which he punishes sinners. 

The Cathars think that Good/God cannot strike and end the cosmic battle once and for all. G. has to wait for Evil to exhaust itself, until the end of mundane time, through the continuous effort Evil gives in effecting its Evilness. 

Evil’s batteries aren’t rechargeable. Good’s are.

It is thanks to its eternal nature that Good is superior to Evil.


Illustration: _Apocalypse_ from _Nuremberg Chronicles, _one of the first printed books


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## Ursa major (Oct 29, 2007)

Sorry to break the historic spell you're weaving, Gio, but it caught my eye that you said Evil came from Nothingness; just as those supporting the Big Bang would suggest all matter and energy did (in some of the theories, at least).

Is this idea of Evil (by which, I thought, the Cathars meant the physical world) emerging from Nothingness one of the tenets of Cathar belief?

(In my ignorance, I had assumed that these people had believed that Good and Evil had appeared simultaneously; but obviously not.)

Of course with quantum fluctuations, Evil (their view of Evil) can appear spontaneously; perhaps it's just as well they're not around to find this out.


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## Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2007)

This is off-topic, Ursa, but...quantum nothingness is not _'nothingness'_...far from it!

The fluctuations.....the fluctuations...........

There is no zero!


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 29, 2007)

Interesting question, Ursa.

Yes, the Cathars weren't dualistic to the core. The existence of Bad unravels out of the _Nihil_, as a by-product of _Materia. _It is, in this sense_, _a product of creation, but not as the Catholics think, a punishment thrown upon us bad people by a vengeful god.

In the light of the above, Evil is not, like in Mani's heresy, a principle that exists on the same level as Good (Ariman vs. Ahura Mazda, Darkness against Light as two components of the Universe).

God beeing infinite Good, he can't--by definition--"decide" to create Evil.

It was embarrassing for the Catholics. How to scare the masses with a Devil on limited batteries?


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## Ursa major (Oct 29, 2007)

Seph, I realise that. It's just that I found it odd that the Cathars saw existence coming out of nothing, independent of Good, just as our view of the universe is that it was a seemingly random occurence (however we view the sub-microscopic detail). And, of course, while there is no zero as such, there was no time, so some might argue that the non-zeroness is almost moot, while, on the other hand, vital.


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## Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2007)

I take your point.  

This is a sentence that struck me (from Ed Witten, IIRC):

_Geometry is a low-energy approximation of some concept we do not yet understand.  

_ The same goes for time, quite possibly.  The horizon we see as a 'beginning' might be nothing of the kind.  

But anyway.  Sorry for rambling off-topic.  


I have to say, I wasn't aware of this aspect of the Cathars' dualism, either.


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 29, 2007)

Don't materialists think that bacteriae spring out of inorganic matter, as some product of evolution?

As the materia is created, it is attracted towards the Below, charging itself in gross and thick substance; therefore, it can also be attracted towards gross and thick behaviour, they thought.

I'm afraid that scientific reasoning doesn't apply here.

Theology might.


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## Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2007)

Yes, but life from organic molecules which emerged gradually out of inorganic ones is a comprehensible process, not like something from nothing.  

But no, you're right.  Scientific reasoning is out of place, here.


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## Ursa major (Oct 29, 2007)

_Yes, Seph, but Giometry is a low-understanding approximation of some person we do not yet know. _

Now back to topic. You're right, Gio, that scientific reasoning doesn't apply; and yes, there have been many wild and woolly explanations of where certain matter comes from; on a grand scale, though, I've never heard of the idea the Cathars had: complete physical creation independent of a god or gods. (But then my knowledge of the world's creation theories is minimal, so there's no reason I should have.)


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## Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2007)

I've heard of creation myths without a first actor, but not this particular explanation of evil.

The Norse creation myth springs to mind.  The merging of the primeval heat and cold create the first being, the frost giant Ymir.


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## Ursa major (Oct 29, 2007)

Even there, though, there is a merging, not a spontaneous appearance. And with heat and cold, we have already met a metaphor for duality. (Definitely not scientific, though!)


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## Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2007)

Yes, no primeval gods, though.  

But it isn't so surprising that spontaneous appearances are rare, since they tend to be counter-intuitive.


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 29, 2007)

I'm not expressing this idea clearly enough.

God herself has created Matter, but, once created, this matter can play in the sandbox without God permission, otherwise there would be no fun. Well... But it is true that, along this line of reasoning, the matter tends to become more "physical", and getting more and more different from God. 

One could say that God could have foreseen this and avoid the advent of Evil. Of course she did, but creating things that evolve from chunks of clay into Japanese anime makers is exciting. If I were God, I'd do just that. It's about knowing oneself. How do you know yourself if you are everything and perfect and with no needs?

As soon as you create Materia, you can observe it. Inventing limitations out of a limitless power, now that's fun.


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## Ursa major (Oct 29, 2007)

Thinking about it, I'm not sure that there were gods, as such, at the very start of the Ancient Egyptian creation myth; and now I can't find the book that would remind me.

(Shame: I thought I'd weaned myself off Wiki - out of the frying pan a bit, though, with the Chrons....)


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## Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2007)

And then resolving not to interfere, Giovanna?  Or lacking the power, thereafter, to do so?

The latter, by my reading of what you said above?



Wiki's fine as long as you use other sources to back it up, though.  

Uhh....hang on..........where did I put my notes, are they on this computer?

*goes to see*


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 29, 2007)

Deciding not to interfere, that would be an anthropomorphic point of you.

My metaphors were very anthropomorphic.


The Cathars would say that God can't fight Evil without losing her nature (i.e. becoming Evil).

She could, because she can do anything, but she would become Un-Good.

There's already this question of matter making bad choices, remember, so I, a _bonnefemme_, don't see why God should become Matter as well.


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## Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2007)

I find the very concept of God to be anthropomorphic, though.


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 31, 2007)

The longer God's beard is, the more anthropomorphic he is.

But in the Cathars' system of beliefs, God (Senior) is something less describable and tangible than in the Catholic tradition. 

I mean, can the Eternal Good grow a beard?


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## Sephiroth (Oct 31, 2007)

No, of course not, I see what you mean.  It is something more comparable to Plato's _world of forms_, isn't it?

Of course, Christian doctrine in general was heavily influenced by him, so one shouldn't be surprised.  



If God is 'merely' the _'Wellspring of Good'_, where does consciousness come into It?

The idea of God as the Creator, but also as the helpless endurer of a Universe of Evil, is a strange contraction (to my materialist mind).


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## Giovanna Clairval (Oct 31, 2007)

> [QUOTE=*Sephiroth*;966106]No, of course not, I see what you mean. It is something more comparable to Plato's _world of forms_, isn't it?


For Plato there is no proper "God", only a Demiurge (the Architect of the universe, the one we meet in the Matrix 3...), while the Cathars are Christians, their Good engenders Jesus, after all.




> Of course, Christian doctrine in general was heavily influenced by him, so one shouldn't be surprised.


To answer that, I'll post an "episode” on the origins of Catharism.




> If God is 'merely' the _'Wellspring of Good'_, where does consciousness come into It?


God doesn’t get consciousness. God _is_ total, infinite consciousness. All that is created possesses more or less consciousness. Angels are more conscious than humans are. Humans are better at mathematics than asparaguses.
See the Great Chain of Beings, in which the supernatural is not—in essence—different from the natural; it is only _super_-ior (above it), perching on some of the higher rungs in that cosmic ladder.




> The idea of God as the Creator, but also as the helpless endurer of a Universe of Evil, is a strange contraction (to my materialist mind).


God as a helpless endurer of Evil resembles Captain Nemo looking through a porthole and watching a herring strike an attack at the _Nautilus._


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## Sephiroth (Oct 31, 2007)

Well, I wasn't saying that Catharism was Platonism, just that the abstract nature of their God brought to mind an _ideal of Good_, rather than a supreme being. 

I get the _all things are conscious bit_, I feel something similar, to a degree (and it reminds me of Shintoism, and _kami_), but the extrapolation to the superior, the _supernatural_, I have difficulty with. 

What I really have difficulty with is this: if God is 'perfection', why create imperfection?  Why _create_, why not just _exist_, perfectly?




I look forward to your _episode_.


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## Giovanna Clairval (Dec 9, 2007)

*Was Manichaeism a Satanic doctrine?*

*THE ORIGIN OF CATHARISM

*​ *Episode 1

*​ *Dualist? Did You Say Dualist?*​ 

Rome's strongest accusation against the Cathars is that of being Manichaeist. 

The historians think differently. *

Was Manichaeism a Satanic doctrine?* 

Manichaeism is founded by Persian Mani in the third century. A religion of universalistic ambition, it develops an culture of aesthetic and an exemplary spiritualism. Very soon, Manichaeism competes with Zoroastrism, Buddhism, and the Christian Church of Rome. The Roman emperor forbids it. In 443, Pope Leo the Great defines "the Manichean folly" as "Satan's fortress". 

All to the contrary, the new religion positions itself on the side of Light, whose antagonist, Darkness, is led by Satan, the one who swallowed Light into a world of matter. Here below, the Light is imprisoned within Evil since the creation of the world. And, since its creation—a cosmic catastrophe—this world is nothing but impure mélange.  *

Particle Filters and Lifts to Heaven* 

The Manichaeist religion aims at liberating the Light, giving it back to the kingdom of Heaven. This is done particle by particle, thanks to a filtering process and the Column of Glory. Light is present in every animated and non-animated thing, and must be liberated through patient filtering. 

The Column of Glory is a kind of cosmic lift that propels the filtered particles of Light to the world of the Moon, then the world of the Sun, and finally up into the Kingdom of eternal Life. Mani's religion possesses a canon of scriptures and a structure of churches. The church, through asceticism, is part of the force that participates in liberating and projecting the moths of Light towards their celestial abode. *

How happened that every heretic became Manichaeist

* Manichaeism is the object of virulent attacks and a campaign launched by Rome tries, and succeeds, in discrediting the new religion. To the Acts of Archelaus published in 345, Augustine adds his "Against Faustus", around 400. These are two of the numerous _summae _of refutation. 

Miraculously, the religion is "reduced", in the words of the historian Jean-Michel Dubois, "to a Christian heresy". 

This is the origin of the caricature of Manichaeism as a simplistic system of opposition between legions of black and armies of white.

 During the 11th century, the accusation of Manichaeism becomes the "quintessence of all heresies" (Madeleine Scopello). In 1018, Adémar de Chabanne denounces the peasants of Aquitaine "contemptors of the sacraments". In 1022, the scholars from Orleans are burnt at the stake. All are promoted Manichaeists and sorcerers for the occasion. 

From A.D. 1000 on, the idea of the Great Combat triumphs with the Gregorian reform and the spirit of the crusades. The Roman orthodoxy denounces, along with the Saracens, the heretics, agents of Evil. 


*Was Rome's orthodoxy… Manichaeist?* 

As Georges Duby points out, all Christendom is Manichaeist at the turn of the first millennium. On one side is God, on the other, the Devil. 

As Robert Moore says, we see the advent of the "society of persecution", where the monastic order of Cluny and, later on, Citeaux confronts the legions of the Devil, that old serpent and prince of Hell. It is an allegory of the combat between virtue and temptation in the heart of men, for eternal salvation or damnation. 

The denunciation of heresy goes hand in hand with the growing importance of the Prince of Evil. In the 12th century, the heretics of Rhineland are accused of adoring the Devil under the form of a white cat, hence the popular term "Ketzer", in French "catier" or "chatiste", the adorer of the cat, a name that will be used to qualify the Cathars.

 In fact, these diabolic heretics are communities of religious dissidents, like the Poor of Lyon, the Waldesians, all inspired by the will of reforming the Church, and whom the intransigence of Rome will transform into schismatic. Among the dissidents, a well-defined current is little by little identified with the movement of Catharism.

 *Differences in Dualism* 

The Roman orthodoxy accuses the Cathars of giving Evil too great a function in their cosmogony. And yet, the Christian culture sees the world as the field where the forces of God and the legions of Evil fight, the Devil being the prince of the material world, even the creator of the "things that are visible and corruptible". 

But, in contrast with Manichaeism, Catharism emerges from within the Christian culture. The Cathar dualism is the result of research and analysis of the scriptures, although, it ultimately aims at clearing the divinity of all Evil, for he, the loving God announced by Jesus Christ, cannot know taint of death, corruption, suffering and violence. 


To be continued




Illustration from a Mani book of prayers

Spread of Manichaeism

Adoration of the Dragon from the Christian Book of Revelation, or Apocalypse (Spain, c.a 800)

The Mani Wheel

​


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## Sephiroth (Dec 9, 2007)

Fascinating, thank you.  (You made us wait for this one!)

Interesting that Manichaeism did not in fact have Zoroastrian roots.  

Of course, I know that Augustine was a Manichean in his youth, and that is thought partially to account for his zeal in suppressing the 'heresy' thereafter.  


The Cathars were always doomed, I suppose, given that the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches had little tolerance even for less different sects, such as the Arians or Nestorians.


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## Giovanna Clairval (Dec 9, 2007)

Thank you, Aluminous,

But are you saying that Arianism was less different than Catharism, compared with Roman orthodoxy?


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## Sephiroth (Dec 9, 2007)

Yes, but I'm looking at it from a very non-Christian point of view.  


So, to me, the controversy over Jesus is less important than the controversy over the Creation.  

But I see what you mean.  The faithful might disagree.


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