# The World Wars and Science Fiction - Thesis Question Help Appreciated!



## Alienweirdo (Feb 6, 2007)

Hello again everyone! My thesis is going well at the moment, i am currently drafting out my sections and have completed the first of my five chapters. For those who need reminding, my thesis title thus far is *'How the Real World Has Affected Mainstream Science Fiction'*.

i plan on writing my second chapter regarding the influence the World War(s) have had on the world of Sci Fi. My reasons for deciding to write a chapter about the world wars is because they are arguably the biggest events of the 20th century, affecting everyone either immediately or through their heritage and surroundings (areas in which they live etc).

i researched a bit on Nazi UFO's, and how they had these disc like vehicles under secret construction for a while. i'm currently looking at Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse-five. i also have bits on comic characters created during or in some way influenced story-wise by the wars (Captain America, Hellboy). i don't really want the whole chapter to be about Nazis, so...

I was hoping that you could give me your views or even some input as to what else to look into? or point out any incredibly obvious things that i have forgotten to mention. i intend to write about 1600 words in this chapter.

thanks all!

-ian-


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## The Ace (Feb 6, 2007)

Harry Turtledove's "World War, In the Balance, " series looks at an alien invasion during WW2,  an interesting diversion.


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## Dr. Atomic (Feb 6, 2007)

Consider technology:
The atomic bomb/uranium enrichment
Radar/microwave radiation
Rockets (Nazis developed the V2)
WW2 lead to the cold war which lead directly into the space race
Cyphers/codes/calculation machines (which lead directly to computers)
Jet engines (developed by the Nazis in the latter part of the war, though never put into use beyond the test phase)

I'm missing lots of other stuff, but it's a place to begin investigating.


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## iansales (Feb 7, 2007)

I don't see how the myth of Nazi UFOs has influenced science fiction -- you'd be surprised at how little the idea has been used in novels. Offhand, I can only think of WA Harbinson's Projekt Saucer series and Mick Farren's *Underland*. I suppose you could argue that military research continuing from WWII led to the Roswell crash of 1947, which has in turn a huge amount of sf. But that's just a theory 

Other than technology, the only inspiration I can think of that sf took from the two world wars is the concept of global warfare (expanded to galactic warfare, naturally). Having said that, it's doubtful WWI had much of an impact -- science fiction didn't exist until 10 years after it ended, and during the inter-war years WWI was considered to be the first and last war of its kind.


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## Alienweirdo (Feb 7, 2007)

iansales said:


> I don't see how the myth of Nazi UFOs has influenced science fiction -- you'd be surprised at how little the idea has been used in novels. Offhand, I can only think of WA Harbinson's Projekt Saucer series and Mick Farren's *Underland*. I suppose you could argue that military research continuing from WWII led to the Roswell crash of 1947, which has in turn a huge amount of sf. But that's just a theory



Thats cool, the Roswell thing may be a good thing to mention =)

i remember watching a conspiracy program on tv ages ago, about UFO sightings in the 50's. it came to the conclusion that most of the feasible sightings were due to people seeing experimental aircraft, Flying Saucers allegedly developed by the Nazi's. When one individual had an encounter, conveniently so did others (whether they are telling the truth or not). the 'flying saucer boom' happened around this time as well, where most other UFO sightings resembled more of a zeppelin shape or ball of light. thus most of the b-movies had stereotypical flying discs as the protagonist's spaceships. the program then went on to make the relative connections. This was what i was thinking of mentioning in my thesis.


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## iansales (Feb 7, 2007)

It's true that media sf picked up on "flying saucers" -- everything from the shape of United Planets Cruiser C-57D in *Forbidden Planet* to the television series *The Invaders*... But the Nazi link is a later addition. And there's no evidence to support it. I've also seen claims that the Germans developed the nuclear bomb before the Americans -- and even exploded one. But the argument was so badly made, it wasn't even remotely convincing. (Now there's a whole area of "science fiction" you might want to check out -- see Adventures Unlimited Press Online Store )


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## j d worthington (Feb 7, 2007)

Actually, World War I ended in November 1918, eight years before the 1926 watershed that's being claimed. I still have to disagree with that, though, considering the number of writers who wrote sf stories before that period, and continued to do so through the Gernsback and Campbell years, such as Jack Williamson (1920 saw his first story published).

As for specific impact of the first World War on sf... I know I've run into stories dealing with that from the 1920s and 1930s, but it's been a very long time since I read them, so I'll have to see if I can track them down again. But as far as the rest... the fear of a second world war was looming as early as 1934, and sf had been doing stories influenced by the horrors of the first World War (only expanded) since at least Armageddon 2419 A.D. in 1928; the fears of atomic weaponry became more and more prevalent throughout the 1930s; fascism was often depicted as being a future state globally, with dire consequences; and certainly a large part of the fear engendered by Orson 
Welles' War of the Worlds broadcast in 1938 was because of the growing tensions about another global war. If you look at much of American sf during the years between, you can trace the awareness that we were heading for such an event, with some speculations on how badly it would affect the human race. While it wasn't the dominant strain, it was a pretty strong thread in a lot of sf short stories of the period; and certainly during the Second World War, there was a lot of the mindset of the war itself in depicting the "villains" of stories, though there was also a growing feeling that Japan was going to be one of the major aggressors in the next conflict -- a feeling that began to surface as early as 1917, incidentally, with some writers.

The fallout of the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki certainly colored sf for a very long time, bringing in several nuclear holocaust scenarios that began before the tensions with the U.S.S.R. had become nearly so pronounced; once the "Red Scare" was in full swing, the tensions became more focused on that conflict, but it began with the mushroom cloud over Japan (or, to be correct, with earlier concerns about atomic weaponry that now had a practical example to point to).

Again, if you look, you'll find the social fallout of the two World Wars playing themselves out in sf's projections, from such pieces as "Gomez" or "Two Dooms", by C. M. Kornbluth, to the works of Heinlein (consider, for example, his juvenile,* Rocket Ship Galileo* -- not a sterling book, but it reflected many of the concerns surfacing in the field). And certainly Hitler became a mythic figure who continues to resonate in sf and fantasy even today. (Think of the stories in *Hitler Victorious*, for example, or Spinrad's *The Iron Dream*, or even of the various uses of the Third Reich in Moorcock's work, from short stories such as "The Pleasure Garden of Felipe Sagittarius" to novels such as *The Dragon in the Sword*, *The Dream Thief's Daughter*, and the Pyat novels -- though these last are not technically science fiction, they are sort of an alternative history, albeit from a very individualistic point of view.) There's also plenty of reflections of concerns coming out of the second World War reflected in Ballard's stories, not to mention Aldiss' send-up of a future society celebrating the birth of the atomic age with a reenactment of the original bombings. And then there's Harlan Ellison's various takes on the Second World War and how it affected the world, including the script for "The City on the Edge of Forever" for _Star Trek_, which hinged on the idea that, if Edith Keeler succeeded in her aims for peace, the Axis would have developed the atomic bomb first, and therefore won the war. And you've already mentioned Vonnegut and Slaughterhouse-Five, which was not only mainstream sf, but entered the mainstream (in America, at least) as Vonnegut's popularity as a novelist grew.

These are the one that come to mind right off the top of my head; there are more that I'd have to look up, but I'd say that the wars actually had a pretty strong impact on sf, just as they did most literature being produced at the time. (I recall a ghost story in an issue of _Weird Tales_ for December 1929, I believe, that used this as a theme: the ghosts of soldiers killed in the First World War waiting tables at a restaurant where two munitions manufacturers were debating how best to manipulate the world situation to profit from war fears, and sell arms for a coming war. The "service" turned to a haunting of an unusual kind, with a grim bit of social commentary. So, if it was hitting as far afield as this, you can imagine how the people who were already inclined to speculate on such issues would be prone to use it for story purposes.)


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## iansales (Feb 7, 2007)

j. d. worthington said:


> Actually, World War I ended in November 1918, eight years before the 1926 watershed that's being claimed. I still have to disagree with that, though, considering the number of writers who wrote sf stories before that period, and continued to do so through the Gernsback and Campbell years, such as Jack Williamson (1920 saw his first story published).



I was rounding up to the nearest 10 

Incidentally, according to isfdb, Williamson's first published story was in 1929. Admittedly, I've found errors on isfdb myself, but...



j. d. worthington said:


> And certainly Hitler became a mythic figure who continues to resonate in sf and fantasy even today.



I'd venture that Hitler has appeared more often as a mythic figure in mainstream fiction than he has in science fiction. And looking at modern sf, he -- and others of his ilk -- are almost completely absent. There are recent examples of alternate history that hinge on WWII - Jo Walton's *Farthing*, Christopher Priest's *The Separation*, for example -- but the two world wars seem to have been wiped from the genre's collective memory...


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## j d worthington (Feb 7, 2007)

iansales said:


> I was rounding up to the nearest 10
> 
> Incidentally, according to isfdb, Williamson's first published story was in 1929. Admittedly, I've found errors on isfdb myself, but...


 
You are quite correct... it was 1929; he sold the story when he was 20 (1928) ... somehow I'd gotten the numbers switched around in my head.




> I'd venture that Hitler has appeared more often as a mythic figure in mainstream fiction than he has in science fiction. And looking at modern sf, he -- and others of his ilk -- are almost completely absent. There are recent examples of alternate history that hinge on WWII - Jo Walton's *Farthing*, Christopher Priest's *The Separation*, for example -- but the two world wars seem to have been wiped from the genre's collective memory...


 
I'm not sure about the more recent writings, but certainly from the 1940s through the 1970s, Hitler and the Reich showed up quite a bit in sf; and the Moorcock books cited were (with the exception of The Dragon on the Sword and the short story listed) all fairly recent -- the Pyat novel that specifically takes place in the second World War  (*The Vengeance of Rome*) was only published in the last year, whereas *The Dreamthief's Daughter* was published in 2001. Prior 1980, though, these were used fairly commonly, for various purposes. So, once again, I'd have to say that -- at least for a substantial period -- they had quite an impact.


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## iansales (Feb 7, 2007)

By "modern", I meant in the last ten years or so. *The Vengeance of Rome* is a bit of a cheat, as it's a return to a series begun in the early 1980s. And besides, Moorcock has never been a typical sf writer 

I'm just wondering if Hitler and the Nazis weren't used chiefly as generic villain-templates in the decades immediately following WWII. Much as the "Yellow Peril" were; and, in later decades, the "Red Menace". In the 1960s and the New Wave, I suspect Hitler was used more for shock value than anything else...


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## j d worthington (Feb 7, 2007)

iansales said:


> By "modern", I meant in the last ten years or so. *The Vengeance of Rome* is a bit of a cheat, as it's a return to a series begun in the early 1980s. And besides, Moorcock has never been a typical sf writer


 
Typical or not, he's had a tremendous influence on the field.

As for *The Vengeance of Rome*... Yes, that series (originally titled _Some Reminiscences of Mrs. Cornelius Between the Wars_) was begun in the early 1980s; but the books themselves also changed complexion as the years went on, and the last book shows considerable differences from the first in tone, style, and even some of his concerns. And *The Dreamthief's Daughter* was not even thought of until around 1999-2000. I'd still say that Moorcock is a rather important figure in the field even though, like Bradbury or Ellison, he doesn't sit in that pigeonhole very easily.



> I'm just wondering if Hitler and the Nazis weren't used chiefly as generic villain-templates in the decades immediately following WWII. Much as the "Yellow Peril" were; and, in later decades, the "Red Menace". In the 1960s and the New Wave, I suspect Hitler was used more for shock value than anything else...


 
No, I'd say he was very seldom used for that purpose. He was used as a symbol, however, for various things rather than as an historically accurate representation of Hitler... much as Jack the Ripper has been over the years. Sometimes as a symbol of mindless violence, sometimes as a symbol of rigid authoritarianism, or too strict an order gone awry, etc. Sometimes he was used as a symbol of how fear can drive a civilized society into self-destructive acts. Remember, it was still close enough that most of the writers of the New Wave were children or teens during the War, and when the facts of the camps came out, it took a _looong_ time to get their heads around how a nation that had prided itself on culture for so long could be the site of such actions on such a scale. So during that period, they were still, through the mythologizing of, trying to understand how such a thing could happen. The New Wave, for all its rebellion, was seldom just about shocking; breaking down the barriers in much the same way the Modernists had done earlier in mainstream literature and the Futurists, Cubists, and so on, had done in art... but it wasn't just to shock; it was to break free of something that was becoming stultified and rigid; and they wanted to address immediate social concerns, confronting them much more openly, and much more in the voice of the time.

But they were also interested in tracing the effects of the causes and the effects of the War, and looking at what part this sort of violence played in the general human condition. So that, too, is a way that the Wars influenced sf.


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## chrispenycate (Feb 7, 2007)

All right, putting a feeling forward as an absolute, without doing the necessary research:
Science fiction has long been a domain where the American influence has been preponderant (at times, overwhelming) the second world war was the moment that numerous Americans actually met people (in particular enemies, or ex-enemies)from outside their closed universe; and, I get the feeling that it was there that the black and white "goodies and BEMs" division started to gain the shades of grey that predominate now. Yes, I too can cite earlier examples of tolerance and understanding, but, by and large, the pre-war aliens were either benevolent elder races inviting mankind to galactic federation membership, or raging maidenovores.


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## iansales (Feb 7, 2007)

j. d. worthington said:


> Typical or not, he's had a tremendous influence on the field ... I'd still say that Moorcock is a rather important figure in the field even though, like Bradbury or Ellison, he doesn't sit in that pigeonhole very easily.



As the editor of *New Worlds*, yes. As a writer? I'm less certain. He's best known amongst genre readers as the author of an extended series of high fantasy novels, hacked out in whiskey- and coffee-fuelled bouts of high productivity. That's not, of course, to ignore his more substantial works, such as *Gloriana*, *Mother London*, the Pyat novels, Jerry Cornelius, etc...

Incidentally, I've never understood the appeal or importance of Ellison. I find his fiction contrived and badly-dated, and he seems to be most successful at self-promotion rather than writing... 



j. d. worthington said:


> No, I'd say he was very seldom used for that purpose. He was used as a symbol, however, for various things rather than as an historically accurate representation of Hitler... much as Jack the Ripper has been over the years. Sometimes as a symbol of mindless violence, sometimes as a symbol of rigid authoritarianism, or too strict an order gone awry, etc. Sometimes he was used as a symbol of how fear can drive a civilized society into self-destructive acts.



And yet, there is an element of shock value to choosing Hitler as that symbol. Certainly, there are more subtle approaches, there are other symbols which could be used. And that's not even counting the use of blatant inventions -- galactic emperors and/or villains, and so on.


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## j d worthington (Feb 7, 2007)

iansales said:


> As the editor of *New Worlds*, yes. As a writer? I'm less certain. He's best known amongst genre readers as the author of an extended series of high fantasy novels, hacked out in whiskey- and coffee-fuelled bouts of high productivity. That's not, of course, to ignore his more substantial works, such as *Gloriana*, *Mother London*, the Pyat novels, Jerry Cornelius, etc...


 
On this one, I'm going by statements from various writers that I've run into over the years, where Moorcock both as editor and writer has impacted them or their work; and while I think he has had considerable impact in the fantasy field, I'd say that he also had an important impact on sf. Also, for the purposes of this specific question, I don't think it matters which hat he was wearing, as writers wasn't specified.



> Incidentally, I've never understood the appeal or importance of Ellison. I find his fiction contrived and badly-dated, and he seems to be most successful at self-promotion rather than writing...


 
Yes, Ellison tends to divide people -- yet in this case it may be a matter of personal taste. Numerous writers have been influenced by him and his work (again, both as writer and editor), and the fact that he has had such a reputation for such a long time indicates pretty strongly that there's a substantial number who don't feel his writing is dated (save, perhaps, for some of his earliest works, which definitely have that aspect, both his stories about juveniles and his early mainstream tales, and some of his early sf); myself, while I have disagreements and dislikes where both the man and some of his work are concerned, I've been quite impressed with him as a writer both for the theme of (what I call) "angry compassion" running through his work and for its intense emotional impact.

But, both our opinions aside, that he has had a major impact on the field is difficult to deny, when it is acknowledged by people as various as Asimov, Del Rey, Bloch, Moorcock, Russ, Aldiss, Le Guin, Silverberg, and Farmer.



> And yet, there is an element of shock value to choosing Hitler as that symbol. Certainly, there are more subtle approaches, there are other symbols which could be used. And that's not even counting the use of blatant inventions -- galactic emperors and/or villains, and so on.


 
I'm still dubious about that assertion, save, perhaps, in the sense that what happened during the Third Reich is still so difficult to understand for most people -- it's by no means the only such example in human history, but it may be the most intensive and glaring in recent history -- and so it inevitably carries a certain number of associations with it. And no, I don't think any other symbol could have been used in most of these cases, for that very particular reason. It was to tie into those associations of Hitler and his cohorts as certainly one of the most powerful symbols of humanity gone wrong that we've ever seen. And, where it was more appropriate to use other symbols (Moorcock's use of the corpse-boats, for example, Ballard's use of the Kennedy assassination, Ellison's use of the political corruption in America and the violent racial tensions of the South, etc.), they were used. No blatant inventions, and very few (if any) genuine historic figures, could so quickly and immediately call up such powerful emotional associations for readers as Hitler. That particular figure, like the Ripper, has become distilled into a quintessence of certain aspects of the human condition (just as, say, Christ, Gandhi, JFK, Arthur, etc., have for others).


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## iansales (Feb 7, 2007)

j. d. worthington said:


> I'm still dubious about that assertion, save, perhaps, in the sense that what happened during the Third Reich is still so difficult to understand for most people -- it's by no means the only such example in human history, but it may be the most intensive and glaring in recent history -- and so it inevitably carries a certain number of associations with it. And no, I don't think any other symbol could have been used in most of these cases, for that very particular reason. It was to tie into those associations of Hitler and his cohorts as certainly one of the most powerful symbols of humanity gone wrong that we've ever seen. And, where it was more appropriate to use other symbols (Moorcock's use of the corpse-boats, for example, Ballard's use of the Kennedy assassination, Ellison's use of the political corruption in America and the violent racial tensions of the South, etc.), they were used. No blatant inventions, and very few (if any) genuine historic figures, could so quickly and immediately call up such powerful emotional associations for readers as Hitler. That particular figure, like the Ripper, has become distilled into a quintessence of certain aspects of the human condition (just as, say, Christ, Gandhi, JFK, Arthur, etc., have for others).



My point is that an author could have made the same point without using such obvious shortcuts as Hitler and his like. For example, in Rex Warner's *The Aerodrome* a RAF base takes over a sleepy English village in an effort to impose "efficiency" and "effectiveness". Warner's commentary on totalitarianism is well made, without him having to resort to using historical bugbears (well, not historical for him: the book was published in 1941).

Besides, I suppose it all depends on whether you subscribe to Carlyle's Great Man Theory


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## j d worthington (Feb 7, 2007)

iansales said:


> My point is that an author could have made the same point without using such obvious shortcuts as Hitler and his like. For example, in Rex Warner's *The Aerodrome* a RAF base takes over a sleepy English village in an effort to impose "efficiency" and "effectiveness". Warner's commentary on totalitarianism is well made, without him having to resort to using historical bugbears (well, not historical for him: the book was published in 1941).
> 
> Besides, I suppose it all depends on whether you subscribe to Carlyle's Great Man Theory


 
The difference is that (at least in the stories I'm thinking of) Hitler and his actions weren't the focus of the tale, he was playing a symbolic role in a larger story. At the same time, they wanted to achieve specific associations that applied to what they were trying to address. You can't do that sort of thing in small compass without making use of such figures. To do otherwise would needlessly encumber your story, much as if Wells had gone into detailed physics of how his Time Machine worked. Other stories, of course, were looking at alternate histories, for example, in which case using Hitler and Nazi Germany is as legitimate as setting your tale in an alternate version of the English or American civil wars, or during Elizabethan England, or what-have-you.

I'm not sure that Carlyle applies here, really. I think that one gets thrown around far too easily. But be that as it may, the fact remains that, for the majority of people (in the West, at any rate) Hitler, like the other figures I mentioned, has become a complex mythic symbol of immediate familiarity. When you mention Hitler, very few people are not going to know who you're talking about, or what period, or the general situation adhering to that period. They may not know specifics, they may not even have the facts straight... but they know the symbol, nonetheless, and at least a fair amount of what it stands for. Use of such figures is also quite complex, as the writer can choose to stress one meaning or another, or invert the accepted meanings, without expending excess verbiage; this allows him or her to get on to the main thrust of what they're trying to say, without getting bogged down in preliminaries. It makes for leanness of writing and, in its own way, considerable precision. And it also has, as I said, the advantage of immediate emotional impact, yet allows the writer to begin with that impact in the same way, for instance, a composer begins with a particular note, chord, or measure, then weaving the emotions and thoughts connected to that throughout other elements of the work to make a tighter and more nuanced whole.

However... this aspect has drifted rather far from the original question of whether the wars had an impact on mainstream sf. My contention is that, if you look at the stories published in the magazines and later in the anthologies and new novels (new rather than reprinted from magazines, not necessarily new as in recent to us), there are plenty of examples of its impact on various levels, and of various types; some were overt references, some were issues or subjects inspired by events or the general milieus of the two wars... but the impact is there, and rather strong it is, too.


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## that old guy (Feb 7, 2007)

Alienweirdo said:


> i researched a bit on Nazi UFO's, and how they had these disc like vehicles under secret construction for a while.


 
This was actually invented from whole cloth by Nazi apologist and Holocaust denier Ernest Zundel in the 1970s.

Zündel's UFO Research

Holocaust denier Ernst Zündel's UFO Research

Holocaust denier Ernst Zündel's UFO Investigator Pass

If you can stand the sight of a few swaztikas, it is almost Monty Python level humor.


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## Alienweirdo (Feb 7, 2007)

that old guy said:


> This was actually invented from whole cloth by Nazi apologist and Holocaust denier Ernest Zundel in the 1970s.
> 
> Zündel's UFO Research
> 
> ...



lol, i can see that now. what i don't understand is why someone would have made a serious documentary about it (not appearing pro-nazi). Mind you, now that i think about it, it was on channel 5...

i just watched a really interesting BBC4 documentary, about catastrophe based british sci fi writers. in mentioned that John Wyndham's influence for Day of the triffids was from the Blitz in 1940, as well as the obvious point of biological experiments being undertaken around the time.


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