# Stasis technology: The stasis fridge.



## AJKlassen (Jun 11, 2021)

In your opinion, how much would a "stasis fridge" change the world economy? 
For simplicity, the food goes in and stays fresh since time doesn't pass on the inside, so long as the fridge has power.

What would a grocery store look like then? 
How affected would the agricultural market be?
What industries would be lost or created with this tech development?
How long would the economy take to balance out before Stasis fridges would be ubiquitous?

Ideas to chew on....


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## Dave (Jun 11, 2021)

Those are really interesting questions to me that I'd like to see the answers to. It would certainly change food storage, and replace refrigerators and freezers very quickly. I think you've answered one of the questions yourself though:



AJKlassen said:


> how much would a "stasis fridge" change the world economy





AJKlassen said:


> so long as the fridge has power.


Large parts of the world still do not have a cheap uninterruptible power supply and so can't even have reliable fridges and freezer. A "stasis fridge" will not change that. Also, the answers are completely dependent on how much power the "stasis fridge" would draw, and therefore the running cost, and whether those are close to, or much greater, than running an existing fridge/freezer. Cheap renewable electricity from solar cells might  change that in the future.

It sounds like you want this for an academic study/homework, but I see the possibilities for fiction in this, like the small child who accidently locks himself inside.


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## CupofJoe (Jun 11, 2021)

For me, there are too many unknowns for a serious or deep discussion.
What technology drives the Stasis Fridge? How big or small can they be?
That will let you know how much it will cost, how fast it might spread, and what effects it will have on other technologies.
If it is easy to make and run [with no significant side effects] then bang goes the tinned aisles in supermarkets.
But if time doesn't pass in a Stasis Fridge, then I could see medical uses that might come first. 
Near-death? Pop them in a Stasis Fridge until a cure is found...
Want to travel to Alpha Centauri and want to avoid the 200 year journey? Lay back in a Stasis Fridge and let the Fridge take the strain.


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## Wayne Mack (Jun 11, 2021)

As food waste and food insecurity are two major concerns, I would expect food waste to diminish if a stasis refrigerator existed. Existing food supplies would be able to go further, but this might put downward pressure on food suppliers as the additional food would go towards those with lower finances. I could also imagine growth in farm co-ops providing stasis refrigeration storage that would allow farmers to outlast temporary plunges in food prices or increases in delivery costs, which currently result in leaving crops to rot in the field or instances of spoilable items (like milk) being dumped.

If introduced very early on, though, it might have precluded the discovery of food stuffs like cheese, yogurt, and beer or things like penicillin.


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## Valtharius (Jun 11, 2021)

Agricultural employment would likely fall.


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## Dave (Jun 11, 2021)

Valtharius said:


> Agricultural employment would likely fall.


Given that farming is already highly automated, I'm interested in what makes you say that? I can't see why existing jobs in animal husbandry, harvesting, picking and planting would fall. I can see that shipping, warehousing and food processing jobs might fall, and that there might be less food waste, but the waste on a farm isn't really wasted; it is fed to animals or ploughed into the soil. The real food waste comes from supermarkets and consumers not using food in good time. That wouldn't stop even with a "stasis fridge" because it is caused by poor stock control and by cooking more than is required. So, I'm not convinced that it would lead to a significant fall in demand. It could even lead to a rise in demand for fresher, unprocessed food, and that could actually lead to higher agricultural employment.


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## Valtharius (Jun 11, 2021)

Dave said:


> Given that farming is already highly automated, I'm interested in what makes you say that? I can't see why existing jobs in animal husbandry, harvesting, picking and planting would fall. I can see that shipping, warehousing and food processing jobs might fall, and that there might be less food waste, but the waste on a farm isn't really wasted; it is fed to animals or ploughed into the soil. The real food waste comes from supermarkets and consumers not using food in good time. That wouldn't stop even with a "stasis fridge" because it is caused by poor stock control and by cooking more than is required. So, I'm not convinced that it would lead to a significant fall in demand. It could even lead to a rise in demand for fresher, unprocessed food, and that could actually lead to higher agricultural employment.


You make interesting points. You might be right for all I know.
Here's a research project for @AJKlassen 
Figure out what happened in the real world economy when refrigeration came on the scene. It might provide an analogue to draw upon.


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## Biskit (Jun 11, 2021)

Wayne Mack said:


> I would expect food waste to diminish if a stasis refrigerator existed.



If you hope to reduce food waste, you're going to need a complementary technology - a "best before" label that auto-updates based on elapsed time outside of the fridge, otherwise  people will go to  their stasis fridge, pick out an item that was "best before" some time last year, and wonder, and then bin it.
Actually, people finding it was best before yesterday would wonder and bin it. People are like that.



CupofJoe said:


> Want to travel to Alpha Centauri and want to avoid the 200 year journey? Lay back in a Stasis Fridge and let the Fridge take the strain.


Or, more prosaically, I can just imagine the conversation...
"Christmas dinner is ready everyone. Who wants to open the fridge and tell Great-Great-Grandad?"


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## Wayne Mack (Jun 11, 2021)

Dave said:


> can see that shipping, warehousing and food processing jobs might fall


I suggest that the introduction of refrigeration increased shipping. It enabled perishable items to be transported further and made provided to more distant areas. I could see that stasis refrigeration might further extend the distances over which food could be viably shipped. Given the ability to store food indefinitely, I would conjecture an increase in the amount of food warehoused. I would expect that it would make farms likely to stasis crops when they ripen rather than having to sell items at low prices when there is a market glut and then release items when they are out of season and prices climb. This could create a new category of food broker and a stock market like trade in crops and crop futures. Perhaps there would be a premium market for produce in particular years, ala wine. Maybe 2038 was a particularly good year for peaches and connoisseurs would hoard them.


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## Astro Pen (Jun 11, 2021)

So what does it do that canning food doesn't?


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## hitmouse (Jun 11, 2021)

Reality: no such thing. The physics of stasis does not work, much as absolute zero is not a possibility. 

Fiction, or thought exercise. Suspend reality and it is much more fun. _Of course _a big fridge running on dilithium crystals/thromdibulators/infinite improbability drives will work. Recommend a look at some of Heinlein’s early Future History sss as an example of how a to tackle socioeconomic effects of a new technology. 

I think you need to specify how much it costto run, capacity etc.

Suspect there would be an immediate rush to use the technology for the immortality industry, or those with incurable diseases.

lots of potential for Rip van Winkle stories. This has of course been done before. 
*Godwhale* by TJ Bass springs to mind, or *The Sleeper Awakes* by HG Wells.


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## hitmouse (Jun 11, 2021)

Astro Pen said:


> So what does it do that canning food doesn't?


There must be some useful scholarly articles on this. Very interesting to speculate. Hard to can food without processing eg a cow. However bottling, canning are pretty flexible, and complement salting, drying, smoking, pickling, preservation in sugar or alcohol, which have long been used.


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## Parson (Jun 12, 2021)

FYI .... there's a whole series of six novels so far which have stasis tech as the key SF element. *Stasis Stories by Laurence E. Dahners.* Not deep reading but lots of interesting speculation.


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## Wayne Mack (Jun 12, 2021)

Astro Pen said:


> So what does it do that canning food doesn't?


Consider applications like organ transplants. Having a technology where an organ does not decay or must be used within a limited time frame opens up a lot of possibilities.

Another area to consider would be smuggling. Presumably, the stasis technology prevents chemical emissions eliminating many detection schemes for illicit items. 

Another interesting consideration is whether the stasis technology requires a physical enclosure or whether it may just need a small number of projecting devices around an object.


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## AJKlassen (Jun 12, 2021)

I think that if a civilization has stasis technology, they would have to master some sort of universal portable energy source, and something super compact at that...

For food waste, recycling is simple enough (compost) - plus how far off would would an atomizer be? For example, a banana would have potassium, magnesium, phosphorus and just a touch of Iron and selenium.... just toss that into an "element bank". This is assuming that a "tech tree" would keep these discoveries on about the same "discovery level".



Valtharius said:


> You make interesting points. You might be right for all I know.
> Here's a research project for @AJKlassen
> Figure out what happened in the real world economy when refrigeration came on the scene. It might provide an analogue to draw upon.


At a quick glance, refrigeration came about in the depression years - "The introduction of Freon in the 1920s expanded the refrigerator market during the 1930s. ".... so some extrapolation would need to be done. (reading up now)...


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## BigBadBob141 (Jun 12, 2021)

Can't remember the title but there was a book where stasis "bubbles" were used as weapons, you would use large bubbles to entomb enemy armys, military bases, air fields ect.
The bigger the bubble the longer it would last, they would collapse a long time after the war was over, in one scene tiny bubbles with a life of only a few minutes were used to bring down enemy aircraft when they got sucked into their engines.
But the best use of bubbles was in the books sequel where it was used for interstellar travel, a spaceship started out in its journey then encased itself in a bubble to last the centuries long  journey.
As time inside the bubble stops then the crew would not age plus it cuts down on the supplies of everything needed to keep the crew alive, plus the bubble would shield the ship from radiation and micro-meteors.
P.S. This is only two of many possible applications as well as long range food storage and medical useage.


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## Dave (Jun 12, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Reality: no such thing. The physics of stasis does not work, much as absolute zero is not a possibility.


What about, not _absolute stasis_ but_ close to stasis_ then? Say, one second passes per month or per year? What about some advanced, magical-like technology that puts things into another universe where time passes more slowly (although that is unlikely to be available as a portable appliance). Yes, this is merely a thought exercise. Many science fiction staples have unlikely 'science' in reality.



Wayne Mack said:


> I suggest that the introduction of refrigeration increased shipping.


I think it certainly did. I was thinking that this new technology would increase the use of _fresh_ food over frozen, chilled, but more especially over dried and processed - and @Astro Pen mentioned canning - and that it would do away with the need to store or move dried and tinned groceries.

However, I do take your point about seasonal produce and vintage years for produce - there would certainly be an increased warehousing and shipping of those. I hadn't considered that and those would certainly be premium products. The rich would be eating 2034 pears while the poor ate the bargain basement 2037 pears.

There would be no need to irradiate food, or to use preservatives, and pesticides use could be reduced. Food would be better quality and probably more healthy, even those 2037 pears.

That first industrial accident was a problem though. Human error leading to an uncontrolled power excursion, and the whole of Kent in the UK missing out three years.


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## M. Robert Gibson (Jun 12, 2021)

Dave said:


> and the whole of Kent in the UK missing out three years


While the rest of the UK didn't miss Kent at all


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## Dave (Jun 12, 2021)

Or, that problem of those cheap, shoddily made, imported _stasis fridges, _with their poor density, illegal shielding, and that give off _time pollution_, leading to anyone passing nearby losing between 6-9  seconds. This leads to the formation in 2041 of the Holistic Oversight Team of the Temporal Utilisation Board & Stasis Protection Agency (HOT TUB SPA).


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## Danny McG (Jun 12, 2021)

BigBadBob141 said:


> Can't remember the title but there was a book where stasis "bubbles" were used as weapons, you would use large bubbles to entomb enemy armys, military bases, air fields


Probably Vernon Vinge* The Peace War*


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## BigBadBob141 (Jun 12, 2021)

Correctomundo, that's the fella!!!


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## Biskit (Jun 12, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Suspect there would be an immediate rush to use the technology for the immortality industry, or those with incurable diseases.


I didn't have the right glasses on and read that as "immorality industry". I only re-read because I couldn't immediately think of useful applications.


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## Dave (Jun 12, 2021)

Biskit said:


> I didn't have the right glasses on and read that as "immorality industry". I only re-read because I couldn't immediately think of useful applications.


Well, there was this video


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## psikeyhackr (Jun 12, 2021)

The effect on vegetables would be huge. I buy bags of salad but often do not eat it fast enough. It gets soggy and yukky even in the fridge. I probably waste at least a third of it.

Date stamps would become nearly meaningless.


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## Dave (Jun 13, 2021)

psikeyhackr said:


> The effect on vegetables would be huge.


A definite yes for salads, and also for seasonal vegetables being available at any time of the year, fresh herbs and spices rather than dried. But would items like sundried tomatoes, or processed food and concentrates be made completely redundant? They are still easier to use, and some people choose ease over quality. There are also foods that have their taste improved with age i.e. the hanging of game and other meats.


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## nixie (Jun 13, 2021)

psikeyhackr said:


> The effect on vegetables would be huge. I buy bags of salad but often do not eat it fast enough. It gets soggy and yukky even in the fridge. I probably waste at least a third of it.
> 
> Date stamps would become nearly meaningless.


Same here and why do I often make  the mistake of buying two bags when I rarely use one a week.


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## tinkerdan (Jun 13, 2021)

John Varley's Thunder and Lightning series touches on this subject.




__





						Red Lightning (Red Thunder): Varley, John: 9780441013647: Amazon.com: Books
					

Red Lightning (Red Thunder) [Varley, John] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Red Lightning (Red Thunder)



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## Danny McG (Jun 13, 2021)

IMO the fridges would all end up massive, like walk in size.

Also would they also preserve heat? Like you could put a full roast in, straight from the oven, and pull it back out in three years and give it "careful, that's hot"


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## tinkerdan (Jun 13, 2021)

Exactly! @Danny McG 
Now read those Varley books and find out.


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## Dave (Jun 13, 2021)

Danny McG said:


> would they also preserve heat?


If they stop _Time_ itself then they would have to surely?

The Dune novels also have "nullentropy" containers, but they were a staple of Larry Niven stories and frequently appear in them (including in the animated Star Trek episode). The _stasis boxes_ were used to store valuables; protected for safekeeping for billions of years. Items found within them from old civilisations were world-changing in themselves. However, he also had _stasis fields_ aboard ships that activated in emergencies to protect the occupants. The occupants would obviously die if there was a loss of heat during stasis.

They could also be used for setting booby traps i.e. a box containing nuclear bomb

Another thought: @hitmouse mentioned that an absolute of anything is impossible but I was thinking why not put one _stasis fridge/box_ inside another _stasis fridge/box_, inside another, inside another...? Larry Niven avoids that by saying that the stasis fields have particles whose physical properties prevent one field from existing inside another. Precedence is taken by the larger field. Damn!


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## Wayne Mack (Jun 13, 2021)

Dave said:


> why not put one _stasis fridge/box_ inside another _stasis fridge/box_, inside another, inside another...?


Wouldn't the outer stasis box freeze all power traveling to the inner box?


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## Dave (Jun 13, 2021)

Wayne Mack said:


> Wouldn't the outer stasis box freeze all power traveling to the inner box?


I hadn't thought of that! We'd need to use _Handwavium_® brand stasis resistant cables.

(But it's really part of the bigger problem i.e. what power supply are you going to use that lasts billions of years anyway.)


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## Parson (Jun 14, 2021)

Dave said:


> If they stop _Time_ itself then they would have to surely?


That's one of the insights that is used in the *Stasis Stories* I referred to early in this thread.


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## hitmouse (Jun 14, 2021)

Dave said:


> I hadn't thought of that! We'd need to use _Handwavium_® brand stasis resistant cables.
> 
> (But it's really part of the bigger problem i.e. what power supply are you going to use that lasts billions of years anyway.)


Obviously the fridge can use zero point energy. Dilithium crystals do last a long time though, especially if connected to a flux capacitor.


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