# How real is magic?



## aftermath (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: Magic*

I have been talking to a few doctors and friends, and whatnot about the ability of magic. I'm not totally sure if it is possible yet, but i have seen a few things in my time. I myself can see ghosts and feel the presence of the dead in an area. There is of course the chance I am crazy, but my family has a long line of this. There are many from where I live with this gift. My friend has the gift of sensing an event in the immeadate future.

I think that this is the form of magic that exists in our world. I don't think it can be learnt but rather it is an extra sense that you are born with, much like sight or hearing. If someone is missing that sense, they can't ever see what I, or my friend can. Also amoung my friends are feelers, they can also sense the presence of the dead in an area. 

What do you guys think? I may be crazy, but from the history of where I live, it is nothing abnormal. It's not like anyone puts all their faith in it, for practice it, but it is accepted by the old and the young as a thing that is part of us. That we can't help ourselves from seeing/feeling these things.


----------



## Eldo (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Magic*

Hello Alex

This is very interesting I don't know why other people haven't replied.  I think you have a gift and I suppose we could call it magic or even wizardry.  I believe we are born with these abilities and they cannot be learnt.  I have an ability.  I am able to curse people who have done me wrong by focussing on them in my mind and somehow at sometime they will always end up suffering.  It has occured too often to be a coincidence.  But most people would probably think I'm talking rubbish.  What do you think?


----------



## Alexa (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Magic*



			
				aftermath said:
			
		

> My friend has the gift of sensing an event in the immeadate future.


I believe this is called precognition. I had some experiences of this kind. 



> What do you guys think? I may be crazy, but from the history of where I live, it is nothing abnormal. It's not like anyone puts all their faith in it, for practice it, but it is accepted by the old and the young as a thing that is part of us. That we can't help ourselves from seeing/feeling these things.


Are you from a wicca family?


----------



## aftermath (Jan 4, 2005)

Nope, I'm not from a wicca family, but where I live is all scottish descendants and it is said that it is part of our blood. I dunno. 

 My friend also has that can sense the future can also sense deep feelings in an area. 

 Eldo, you have a powerful gift it seems, one that can effect people greatly. Have you tried to think positive thoughts for a person, and have like an inverse effect on them?

 Btw, why did you call me alex?


----------



## Alexa (Jan 4, 2005)

You mean your friend is an empath ?


----------



## AmonRa (Jan 14, 2005)

we all have different ideas of what magic is, some would say that it's pulling a bunny from a hat, others, like alexa for example i assume would say it would be to have an abnormal ability, like being an empath. what i think magic is something which can't be explained by science and seems to be able to defy physics. if we took any person from any time period from before the industrial revolution and we showed them an aeroplane or a television, they would say it was magic, we would now say it was science. if i saw something magical, like for example levetation or the conjuring of a demon, then i would call it magic, but maybe in 200 years, when they have worked out how it is possible, then it would be an everyday thing. 

i still believe in 'magic' and the paranormal, but i also believe that it has a reason for happening either within this reality, or is the ripple waves of something happening in another reality.


----------



## Alexa (Jan 15, 2005)

You don't know me well enough to make assumptions, AmonRa. In my opinion, the empathie is a normal activity. Sorry to disappoint you. 

Plus, I spend my spare time on an inter-faith forum. And I must say, you can find real wicca and shamans there. I could not believe in magic like "pulling a bunny from a hat" without offending them. There are many athiests on this forum. I'm not one of them.


----------



## zorcarepublic (Jan 15, 2005)

Unfortunately, I am, or rather I am an atheistic agnostic...


However, call me weak-willed if you want to, but I allow people to have their own beliefs. If someone feels that they need to worship a deity, fine. If they feel that they have a gift, thats okay too. Its just that, with my mindset, I feel sceptical about the whole thing.

I can offer you a possible idea on how magic may work:

A modern idea in fantasy science fiction is that wizards/mages etc access a sort of 'magical field', which you can draw energy off of for performing feats. Real space might be represented by a rubber sheet, which people inhabit. Strong mages/wizards, for example, may represent a heavy object on this sheet, and so may weaken the boundary between Real space and the magical field, allowing them to draw on more energy. In this scenario, everyone can, in theory, practise magic--its just a few that could, for example, create or destroy with a thought.


----------



## AmonRa (Jan 15, 2005)

Alexa said:
			
		

> You don't know me well enough to make assumptions, AmonRa. In my opinion, the empathie is a normal activity. Sorry to disappoint you.
> 
> Plus, I spend my spare time on an inter-faith forum. And I must say, you can find real wicca and shamans there. I could not believe in magic like "pulling a bunny from a hat" without offending them. There are many athiests on this forum. I'm not one of them.


u meen empathie is as normal as sight or touch?


----------



## Alexa (Jan 15, 2005)

My answer is yes, AmonRa. We all have in different degrees empathical abilities. Try to remember from your experience with the others : do you remember meeting somebody and at once you couldn't find your words anymore and the person in front of you had the same symptom ? It may happen on the phone also. You are the one influenced by the other or the contrary, you influence the other person. It's difficult to explain the phenomenon. You just feel the other. Now, if you have a vegetarian regime, or you don't eat a kind of food in specific days because of your religion and if you add to this the belief in a superior force, the possiblity to be "opened" to the others thoughts grows considerably. If all that you care is your precious person and not at all for the others, your emphatical abilities are close to zero (I hope you understand I speak in general terms). 

Let me know if you remember a particular experience of your own.


----------



## Alexa (Jan 15, 2005)

zorcarepublic said:
			
		

> A modern idea in fantasy science fiction is that wizards/mages etc access a sort of 'magical field', which you can draw energy off of for performing feats.


Those wizards I was talking about in my previous post are rather traditionals. Well, there are some of them touched by modernism. Witchcraft is one of the most known ancient pagan religions which has its roots in ancient folk beliefs. The modern current in known as wicca and it appeared in the 60s and 70s. Nothing to do with those described in science fiction. You cannot do magic things without beliving in something.

As you said, you are "an atheistic agnostic". I agree with you : everyone has the right to believe in whatever fits properly with his/her personality or believe in nothing than pure science.


----------



## AmonRa (Jan 15, 2005)

Alexa said:
			
		

> Let me know if you remember a particular experience of your own.


oh yes i no what u mean, i had a similar experience just a few days ago, when i was in a really good mood and was walking to my art class(and i really dont like my art teacher) i walked in and he was talking to the class and all of a sudden i felt really down, and as the saying goes.. u cud cut the tension with a knife.


----------



## Alexa (Jan 15, 2005)

You mean you felt the tension around or inside you ?


----------



## AmonRa (Jan 16, 2005)

i dont no if it was inside but i could deffinatly feel it


----------



## Ashen Shugar (Jan 16, 2005)

I have read that at the smallest level, when matter is viewed through the most powerful of microscopes, matter alternates between being in motion, ie energy, and stationary or apparently solid. Some studies reveal that the item being viewed actually responded to the person viewing it. The studies stated when the scientist was looking for solid matter, he found it, but if he then searched for moving matter, he found this also. If we are all energy at the most basic level, and energy can be influenced / manipulated by thought as these studies suggest, this leads to an interesting situation with regards to "magic". Now this is only what I've read, & I don't have a scientific bone in my body, but it intrigued me.


----------



## Ashen Shugar (Jan 16, 2005)

Can I ask about the inter-faith forum, & what it entails Alexa?


----------



## Ashen Shugar (Jan 16, 2005)

Some books / authors people might find interesting that relate in same way to this subject;
The Celestine Prophecy - James Redfield
Affirmations - Stuart Wilde
Manifesting Your Destiny - Wayne Dyer
Conversations With God - Neale Donald Walsch
Why People Can't Heal - Carolynn Myss


----------



## Neon (Jan 16, 2005)

Well strictly looking at the definition of magic:
"The art which claims to control and manipulate the secret forces of nature by occult and ritualistic methods / Any mysterious power or phenomenon which defies analysis or explanation / The art or practice of producing illusions etc. by sleight of hand"

So from that there are certainly multiple levels of magic that exist in this world.  I think each has been touched by others in this particular thread.  Some things will forever remain magic because no explanation will be had for them, like perhaps senses further heightened in some people.  Others will eventually be explained by science and no longer be magic.  And finally, there will be David Copperfield doing his magic shows in Las Vegas to wow audiences.


----------



## Alexa (Jan 16, 2005)

Ashen Shugar said:
			
		

> Can I ask about the inter-faith forum, & what it entails Alexa?


Brian could tell you more about it as he administrates that site too. If you are interested, just click on the link of comparative religion in his posts.


----------



## Lidora (Jan 17, 2005)

alexa, i think it's cool that you have dianna troy as your icon now that i know how you feel about empathy (it was cool before, but cooler now).

i really want to believe in magic.  i swear i feel this all encompassing force that is indescribable in terms of science.  perhaps that's where my religion lies, i'm really not sure.  i certainly feel emotions on a level that can be called spiritual.  and i want to believe in empathy, i know i have felt different ways, strong ways, around certain people, often strangers.  but who knows.  i'm a very uncertain girl when it comes to these things.  i can only hope.


i'd like to throw in that when i was younger i had such vivid dreams of flying that i truly believed i could.  the dreams remain, but i now can distinguish between reality and fantasy, however, if i were truly able to fly, i know exactly how it would feel from the dreams that i've had.  it's amazing how real my dreams feel.  they are always extremely vivid.  that's why when i have nightmares i commonly will wake up screaming or crying, but on the other side, dreams that are happy are so wonderful and often times are difficult to leave.


----------



## Alexa (Jan 22, 2005)

Lidora said:
			
		

> i really want to believe in magic. i swear i feel this all encompassing force that is indescribable in terms of science. perhaps that's where my religion lies, i'm really not sure. i certainly feel emotions on a level that can be called spiritual. and i want to believe in empathy, i know i have felt different ways, strong ways, around certain people, often strangers. but who knows. i'm a very uncertain girl when it comes to these things. i can only hope.


First of all, thanks Lidora for the avatar compliment. I like yours, too.  

My advise is to "learn yourself" as better as you can. It's easier to identify any other incoming feelings from outside of your soul. May I ask you what is your religion ?

I remember some of those dreams, too. And I miss them. I suppose, this is the price we have to pay to transform ourselves in adults.


----------



## Hypes (Jan 22, 2005)

This thread is absolutely hilarious.


----------



## Ashen Shugar (Jan 22, 2005)

Hypes said:
			
		

> This thread is absolutely hilarious.


There was once this obscure scientific style of a guy who said,
"The only true science is mysticism."
I think his name was Einstein or something similiar.
Apparently he was supposed to be quite a bright spark.
I reckon the fella who 1st thought the world wasn't flat probably gave his peers a hearty chuckle at the time also.
All I know is, for the most advanced species on the planet, we don't know a whole lot. The more absolute opinions you hold, the harder it is to perceive beyond them.
Nothing wrong with a good laugh though - if you don't mind the taste of humble pie on occasion. I'm quite partial to it - I acquired the taste over many years...


----------



## Maryjane (Jan 22, 2005)

_*I can still go to those places in imagination, in  a state of meditation in the realm between half asleep and half awake, some call them visions. Yes search and learn the innerself for understanding. Find out who you are and be her. Have faith in the powers that be and the abileties they have given you  *_


----------



## Alexa (Jan 22, 2005)

Hypes said:
			
		

> This thread is absolutely hilarious.


Sssst ! Don't tell to anybody ! They may think you're under a magic spell.


----------



## Neon (Jan 22, 2005)

Ashen you're right about that: the more things you learn only serves to highlight the less you actually know.  

On an interesting note, I attended this lecture from a professor years ago who's studies were in music.  He talked about work he's done with classical music where, through practice and study, can actually help induce out of body experiences.  While he didn't go in much depth how this was actually achieved, it was interesting to hear somebody talk about it.  He mentioned that the FBI used to monitor him and sit in on some of his lectures while he was researching it (or maybe he's just paranoid).  Also, he talked about how the US used to try to train spies to learn out of body, but we eventually quit that.  I don't know if I believe all of what he said, but it certainly sounded convincing at the time.


----------



## Maryjane (Jan 22, 2005)

*The more we learn the more we discover how little we know in the infinite scheme of things. The more you see the more there is to see. One layer in the infinite onion.*


----------



## Hypes (Jan 22, 2005)

I just find the choice of words and the connotations they bring rather amusing. You're on a science-fiction/fantasy fiction forum - what else do you expect?

_"Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic"_ 
-Arthur C. Clarke. He was another one of those visionaries, like Einstein. And he's right, too.

And I do reckon the fellow who proposed that the earth might not be flat got more than a bit of a chuckle. He got prosecuted.

If the onion is infinite, Maryjane, then what is the point of peeling? You will never move an inch.


----------



## Maryjane (Jan 23, 2005)

*I would be moving forward in relation to where I was at infinitum  *


----------



## Hypes (Jan 23, 2005)

And what exactly would be the purpose?


----------



## Maryjane (Jan 23, 2005)

_*Perhaps evolving to a higher state of being or to a lower one which ever path one has traveled in their life time. *_
_*As names like the indigo children, the Crystal children, the Children of Oz, the gifted ones etc, suggest, our human evolution is being upgraded by wize and loving souls returning to earth (The gradfather stars, of native legend). While heart and brain exploration continues to enrich our understanding of ourselves as creations (The One's) design, perhaps we will finally understand how identical we humans realy are in our basic essence and then begin to applying our extraordinary hearts and brains to accept one another as one family *_


----------



## Hypes (Jan 23, 2005)

Welcome to the Chronicles. The beer's in the fridge, and the nuts are all over the board.


----------



## Maryjane (Jan 23, 2005)

_*LMAO *_


----------



## Michael (Jan 25, 2005)

Alexa said:
			
		

> Sssst ! Don't tell to anybody ! They may think you're under a magic spell.


Haha! I do.


----------



## littlemissattitude (Jan 25, 2005)

Hypes said:
			
		

> _"Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic"_
> -Arthur C. Clarke. He was another one of those visionaries, like Einstein. And he's right, too.


I'm not actually sure, but I believe that the correct quote is "Any sufficiently advanced tecnhology is indistinguishable from magic."  I'd have to look it up to be absolutely sure, but this is how I recall it.


----------



## Maryjane (Jan 25, 2005)

*You are correct Littlemissatitude I read the book that quote was in although I gdon't remember what the name of the book as it was a good one. Einsteins inifinite potenitleties in infinite realeties is what it reminds me of*


----------



## Hypes (Jan 25, 2005)

And the difference is what, exactly?


----------



## Leto (Jan 25, 2005)

Einstein is dead, Arthur C Clarke is alive.


----------



## Maryjane (Jan 25, 2005)

*Arther C Clarck had a briliant imagination and some of his imagination has been incorperaed in reality into some technologies today. Today's science fiction tomorows scientific fact. I believe some of these writers were actually seers of the future.*


----------



## Hypes (Jan 26, 2005)

Otherwise known as a healthy dose of imagination and a dash of knowledge in the field.


----------



## Maryjane (Jan 26, 2005)

*Right on  *


----------



## Ashen Shugar (Jan 29, 2005)

Hey Neon - Out of body experiences / astral projection etc - I believe it can be done. 

There has been accounts by persons in high stress situations, prisoners of war etc, who claim to have left their bodies under duress and watched proceedings from a third person perspective from across the room. 

And then there were those alleged military records from the US Air Force where 2 seperate fighter pilots claim they did not bomb a certain city in Italy because Padre Pio was floating in the sky telling them there was no longer any need as the Germans had left the area (I think I have that story right).

The stories are countless - and that's not even mentioning the near death thing. 
I have tried to do it but can't claim to have succeeded. The clostest I came was what I think was a very vivid dream where I got to experience what it might be like. 

In my dream, I floated in my bedroom and looked down upon my sleeping self in the bed. I was able to direct myself consciously into the ensuite, but when I tried to leave the house, I woke. Just a dream probably - but I liked it alot and would love to have another one which felt so real.


----------



## polymorphikos (Jan 30, 2005)

When I was younger I was at the playground, standing on the flying fox platform, and I felt my vision swing out in front of me, circel around in a generous arc, and then return to it's original point via the back of my head. In spite of this, I'm putting it down to the fact that it was a summer's day in Brisbane and my sister had recently choked me, and not mysticism.


----------



## Ashen Shugar (Jan 30, 2005)

I like to take the point of view, who cares if it's real so long as something is gained from it. It's like people who channel, psychics etc - I don't care where the information comes from as long as its valuable. Doesn't have to be mystic to gain something from it - if oxygen deprivation gains you a great experience, good stuff! (so long as you don't do what Michael Hutchence did)


----------



## Maryjane (Feb 1, 2005)

*Visions, I have had many visions during meditation. You know the diference between a vision and a dream if youve ever had a vision. It's like reality it's so real you can see it smell it sence see it feel the wind hear the waves laping on the shore the grass moving twigs stones trees Pine trees where you can actually hear the wind sihging in the needles. To get into a state of seeing visions you have to be at the fine line between wakefulnes and unconscious sleep. Takes practice, to easy to drop off into the unconcsious sleep part.   *


----------



## polymorphikos (Feb 1, 2005)

Ashen Shugar said:
			
		

> (so long as you don't do what Michael Hutchence did)


Sing? Sage advice.


----------



## Maryjane (Feb 2, 2005)

*I won't do what Michael Hutchence did. I refuse to pick my nose in public. *


----------



## Ashen Shugar (Feb 2, 2005)

Just on Michael, I know the guy who was working at the Morgue when Michael was brought in. He had a phone call from the English press offering him money for a photo of Hurchence on the slab in the morgue. Nothing like good taste and sensitivity in journalism.


----------



## shaggydog (Feb 6, 2005)

i am almost falling in that state between awake and sleep, I will practice lets see if I can navigate to my will in that visions... the problem I have is that when I becoma aware that i am having that visions I can not hold it anymore... any counsels?
just say this thread is brilliant


----------



## Lacedaemonian (Feb 6, 2005)

Did he take the photos Ashen?


----------



## Ashen Shugar (Feb 7, 2005)

You tell me - did you see them in the papers? He reckons he didn't, but he left the job a short time later, so...


----------



## cleasterwood (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Magic*



			
				aftermath said:
			
		

> I have been talking to a few doctors and friends, and whatnot about the ability of magic. I'm not totally sure if it is possible yet, but i have seen a few things in my time. I myself can see ghosts and feel the presence of the dead in an area. There is of course the chance I am crazy, but my family has a long line of this. There are many from where I live with this gift. My friend has the gift of sensing an event in the immeadate future.
> 
> I think that this is the form of magic that exists in our world. I don't think it can be learnt but rather it is an extra sense that you are born with, much like sight or hearing. If someone is missing that sense, they can't ever see what I, or my friend can. Also amoung my friends are feelers, they can also sense the presence of the dead in an area.
> 
> What do you guys think? I may be crazy, but from the history of where I live, it is nothing abnormal. It's not like anyone puts all their faith in it, for practice it, but it is accepted by the old and the young as a thing that is part of us. That we can't help ourselves from seeing/feeling these things.


 
I guess it depends on who you're asking as to whether or not "precognition" and "sensitivity to the deceased" is magic.  Now both are something that can be learned but it takes years of practice, meditation, and skill to accomplish unless you're naturally gifted, which you and your friend seem to be.  All people have these innate abilities but few can tap into them effectively.  Most of the time it doesn't come naturally. Be thankful you're blessed with this gift.

As far as magic is concerned in general, Wiccans believe magic is real but they also know it takes a long time to work as nothing happens instantly like its often portrayed in novels and it's more of a mental magic than anything.  The prime rule is 'do what thou will, harm none', which is a good rule to live by for any.


----------



## Maryjane (Feb 8, 2005)

*Speaking of special abileties here are a couple of sights you might be interested in, especially Lidora if you come around*

*Empaths*
http://www.geocities.com/christabelle67/TheEmpathReport101PtI.html

*Indigo children*
http://www.houstonpress.com/issues/2002-12-19/feature.html/3/index.html


----------



## KajiunVu (Feb 26, 2005)

I tend to be empathic(sp). I've heard that you tend to be better in this field depending on what your horoscope is. So it sounds odd and out there, but thats my two cents.


----------



## Tsujigiri (Feb 26, 2005)

I think that the word 'magic' gives people the wrong idea from the start.

Recent quantum investigation has revealed at least in theory, the existence of alternate realities and states of being.
Any of these theories could be interpreted as magic.
I am for example writing in light without using a pen, posting these lines nowhere and yet others can read them without leaving their homes.

Today I spoke to someone in Australia through a white shell shaped device whilst walking through the garden. I could hear him clearly and he wasn't yelling. I couldn't see him, how could I be sure that he continues to exist...

Later on today I checked the weather forecast on a box showing moving pictures of people, I can't communicate with these pictures directly, yet they were able to inform me that I should expect it to rain. It didn't rain.

Last night I threw a 21 stone body builder 7 feet into the air by touching his hand and elbow, then did it again just to make sure my students understood what to do.
I don't entirely understand why it works yet my students claimed to.

My daughter is 6 years old, yet she is able to break the grip of almost anyone who grabs her wrist, yet I know 30yr martial arts veterans who can't duplicate that feat.

My son is 18months old. I just got up and went upstairs 10 seconds before he began crying. I always know when he needs something, and what he needs, he can't talk yet.

So, how real do I think magic is....difficult one to answer 

Ask me again in 50 years when we begin to have the slightest idea what the universe is all about. 

I don't think there is any such thing as magic in the way you mean, I simply think that there is a hell of a lot that we don't yet understand.


----------



## Eldo (Nov 11, 2005)

Hi Aftermath

No, I generally use it for negative effects, on enemies. I use the power of prayer for good people. My prayers effects manifest in the long term. Things like preventing worrying, calming aggression and stress, but also for physical strength.
I see the negative as my own magic but the positive as the touch of God. I must be a dark spirit of the night who through stealth and ingenuity gets his revenge on those who sinned against me and my loved ones.


----------



## Kladyhawk4444 (May 1, 2006)

My, is Brenda,
I have always been interested in the therory, that people have magic.
I some times feel that there is some force that leads me. Sometimes it scares me. I can see things and know things. I'm glad I found you because I thought I was crazy too. I'd like to talk with you in great detail about this. I do hope you reply back.

         Hope to hear from you soon.
                Brenda


----------



## weaveworld (May 1, 2006)

*I believe that we have our own sort of magic, obviously it would be nice to occasionally control the vacumn cleaner with my mind but needs must....

I know when there is something wrong with my sister, but that could just because we are siblings and close.*


----------



## purple_kathryn (May 1, 2006)

I don't believe in ghosts, magic anything supernatural like at all.

I do enjoy reading about it though.


----------



## Chrystelia (Jun 3, 2006)

Interesting topic.  I have no special abilities, except I always know when my favourite team is going to lose.  O, does dreaming count?  I fall so deeply into the dream world that I can sense several of me in the dream.  What do you call that.  As for seeing spirit or ghost, my sister in-law has it.  Every time someone in the family dies, the spirit will appear to her before going to whereever.  She usually gets the news before phone calls, no matter how far she is from the place the person died, the spirit will appear to her the exact time the person died as if to say goodbye.  As for magic, I think, we do not yet realised how powerful our minds are.  If trained, we could easily control our surrounding by thought.


----------

