# What is truly left to us RPG gamers?



## Karn Maeshalanadae

This is rather a concern of mine as I really have seen the quality of RPGs decline in the past ten years, and I say that a lot of the blame lies on conglomerates like EA.


There were a lot of nice, small developers that made excellent RPGs, but many don't exist anymore...


Origin Systems - Disbanded

Black Isle Studios - Dissolved

Looking Glass Studios - Defunct

Westwood Studios - Liquidated

Bioware - Bought out by EA

Bullfrog Studios - Merged with EA



And these were just developers I could think of that I had any experience with. So what are we left with?

EA - No need to say anything here on the horrible quality of THEIR games.

SquareEnix - Staying alive, I suspect, pretty much to the Final Fantasy series which has gone downhill in quality severely.

Obsidian Entertainment - Crappy studios with crappy games I could never get into.

Blizzard - Oh yeah, HERE'S a good choice. Spend $60 for a copy of WoW and then have to expect to pay an additional monthly fee? When was the last time Blizzard came out with a single-player RPG, or at least something that doesn't drain a gamer's wallet?

And (in my opinion) our shining star, Bethesda. Perhaps the last good RPG developer/publisher out there. Oblivion was a fun game to play, Fallout 3 was good, Fallout: New Vegas I enjoyed, Morrowind was good in its day, and Skyrim appears to be nice as well. (You might say TES are getting monotonous, but I like their idea and setup.)


I would mention Gas Powered Games here except that I have turned my back on them for not being involved in Dungeon Siege III. Yet another good series Obsidian Entertainment has ruined. (The other, of course, being Neverwinter Nights.)


If you feel like you have anything to add to this list, either in good RPG game publishers lost to the nostalgic sands of time, or to add ones you say might be good that are still kicking, you are more than welcome to.


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## Lenny

Since 1997, Origin existed mainly to provide support for their last big game, Ultima Online.

Black Isle may have been dissolved but, as usually happens in the games industry, many of the developers moved with the founders to a new studio, Obsidian.

Looking Glass haven't developed anything for over a decade and it's been even longer since their last truly big game, which itself was built in partnership with another company - Irrational Games.

A good number of devs at Westwood moved to EA Los Angeles when Westwood closed, and have been working on some pretty big games (although they weren't RPGs).

Bullfrog were never in the business of RPGs - they developed RTS games. Their last game was three years before EA merged them into EA UK.

Now BioWare are not even close to dead and buried. They've seen fantastic growth over the past few years whilst also being allowed to keep their own branding and follow their own creative direction, yet still keep the backing of a major player with considerable resources. In no way are they out of the game.

An interesting point, which you might not like, is that *Fallout: New Vegas* was developed solely by the "crappy studio with crappy games" Obsidian. Bethesda's involvement doesn't go any further than publishing the game and releasing a few patches. Obviously, being made of devs from the studio that originally created the Fallout series, it's no surprise that Obisidian's New Vegas is so widely liked.

You forget studios like Irrational, who make the highly successful BioShock series.

---

Quick thought, because I'm late for lunch - the market is moving away from RPGs and into FPS and sandbox games. It has been doing for the past decade or so. You can't pin it all on a studio like EA who, I might add, have been increasing the quality of all their games for some years.


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## TheTomG

It's a shame, that move toward the FPS. I love RPGs, after all living out the lives of other characters is exactly what being an author is all about! I used to love jumping into the regular MMOs and finding the people there who would actually role play, who would go and tell stories with their characters beyond the quests of the games. You know, play a role.

I was always hoping that the growth of affordable computer power would see role play take off, with characters in games and worlds, even, become open to allow input that went beyond what the developers had thought of and pre-programmed in advance, but this hasnt really come to pass, to my disappointment.

I like sandbox games as they head in that direction, and would love to see those continue, and fuse into the RPG genre. I enjoyed Red Dead Redemption for instance, and how cool it would be to have that online with other players, and a world system that really responded and changed depending on what our characters did. Build our own towns. Find our own mines, and stake our claims and start our mining companies. Try to drive the farmers off the land so we can have the gold or iron beneath, or build our railroads. Hire, or be, the bandits who rob stagecoaches, or terrorize locals.

I say put that online because no matter how clever an NPC gets, it will never beat the fun, creativity, unpredictability and imagination of another human being!

I have hope that brave developers will again push the bounds of what is meant by an RPG, even what is meant by a game, and we will see some of my dreams turn into reality


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## Karn Maeshalanadae

Yes, I did about forget Obsidian's role in New Vegas, which when I played I had seen it as a sort of salvation for them. But I still say they could have done far better on Dungeon Siege III and NWN2.


And I wasn't placing all the blame on big companies like EA and Interplay (the ones responsible for dissolving Black Isle), but quite a bit of it. It doesn't really matter to me if those employees of those studios had moved to their big companies, I haven't seen too much quality out of them. Come to think of it, I don't know the last time I've seen an Interplay title...


And as for "quality" in EA...take a look at DA 2. If you think that's quality, then I'm a blind chicken. DA:O was a good game, I loved the character interactions, the humor it held, I enjoyed the combat style, the inventory screens and level up systems were easy to understand and use. I even kind of enjoyed the character art of the whole thing.

DA 2? I SUPPOSE the character art was decent...but that was about it. They complicated the inventory and level up system, they had hardly any useful skill trees, the dialogue choices I felt sucked big time, and the combat system was needlessly complicated as opposed to DA:O and DA:A, and I found it hard to use.

And as for the big push to MMOs...now I really don't mind MMOs. Honestly. Ironically enough, Ultima, one of my favorite game series (at least Ultimas 4-7SI), I found responsible for the big MMO burst. Some might say Everquest started it, but U:O was online before they were. The trouble is, when MMOs require a monthly fee to pay, like Everquest and WoW. Now before you go and say that it's understandable, they need it to pay overhead, etc., remember that Guild Wars had no monthly fee and many other large MMOs out there, developed by smaller or indie companies, don't require monthly fee either. They all have the option of buying in-game items, which many players will do, and I feel that Everquest and WoW should have gone this route as well. If they had, I might have considered trying them out. I just hope Diablo 3 will redeem Blizzard for pulling such a stunt as it had. (Yes, I know the original Warcraft games were RTS, but I really enjoyed them and I would like to see them make another in the same line rather than just keep expanding WoW.)

And again, FPS, I really don't mind. Bethesda's made great FPSRPG games in the Elder Scroll series. (I only wish I could have really seen Daggerfell and Arena, back in the old Dungeon Crawler style.) So I don't really know why others aren't going the same route. And I still say Final Fantasy has lost its quality after X. (Not X-2!)


And another thought here - The Lands of Lore series. The way I understood, it was supposed to be a series of eight games. Once EA got their hands on Westwood, they never got past number three. I enjoyed all three games immensely and I would have liked to see it completed, but I can see there is never going to be a Lands of Lore 4. It's things like that that make me a little angry at companies like EA.


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## Ashcroft

Karn Maeshalanadae said:


> And as for the big push to MMOs...now I really don't mind MMOs. Honestly. Ironically enough, Ultima, one of my favorite game series (at least Ultimas 4-7SI), I found responsible for the big MMO burst. Some might say Everquest started it, but U:O was online before they were. The trouble is, when MMOs require a monthly fee to pay, like Everquest and WoW. Now before you go and say that it's understandable, they need it to pay overhead, etc., remember that Guild Wars had no monthly fee and many other large MMOs out there, developed by smaller or indie companies, don't require monthly fee either. They all have the option of buying in-game items, which many players will do, and I feel that Everquest and WoW should have gone this route as well. If they had, I might have considered trying them out.



May I suggest The Lord of the Rings Online? It's absolutely free: _all_ of the game content that's available for purchase (bar certain cosmetics and essentially worthless stat boosts) can be earned just through playing the game. Landroval (US) and Laurelin (EU) servers are roleplay encouraged, and whilst a lot of players don't choose to RP on those servers, there's _always_ RP to be found in the usual places (Prancing Pony in Bree, especially) and RP teams often form (I used to have a regular RP team).


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## CyBeR

Ashcroft said:


> May I suggest The Lord of the Rings Online? It's absolutely free: _all_ of the game content that's available for purchase (bar certain cosmetics and essentially worthless stat boosts) can be earned just through playing the game. Landroval (US) and Laurelin (EU) servers are roleplay encouraged, and whilst a lot of players don't choose to RP on those servers, there's _always_ RP to be found in the usual places (Prancing Pony in Bree, especially) and RP teams often form (I used to have a regular RP team).



Isn't LOTR:O free only up to level 65 or something like that?


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## Quokka

SEGA has had it's fair share of RPG success but tends to miss out on the kudos. I'm just finishing up Valkyria Chronicles and I love it. It's probably a bit of niche game but for anyone who enjoyed playing Archon as a kid this is an awesome game . It's actually a fair blend of two of their older rpg series, Shining Force and Shenmue.

They seem to really value a good storyline, in fact when I look back at their releases many of my favourite retro rpgs are Sega's, Phantasy Star 4 was another (way back in 93).

I'm hopeful that the increase of downloadable content will help more smaller companys find an audience. Some of them have already done well enough to move on to larger projects.

Of course that's balanced out by the fact that games seem to be getting released with more bugs now they know they can constantly release patches to fix what should have been sorted in development.

As for what started MMOs I remember playing a MUD for years before Ultima Online came out, though your right it was a big part of the boom in online games.


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## Ashcroft

CyBeR said:


> Isn't LOTR:O free only up to level 65 or something like that?



Hm, not sure. I know people in game who've basically gotten all the way up to Moria (level 60 content) without paying a single penny. Here's a brief idea of how much free content that is: it took me _two years_ to get to the Mines of Moria (playing about an hour or so a day), and I don't even prevent myself from out-levelling content!

It's a truly gigantic game, and it looks flippin' beautiful (plus the communities of the RP servers are great).


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## Tecdavid

I think some aspects of the RPG genre are on their way out simply due to changing times. Mistwalker studios is run by the man behind Final Fantasies 1-9, and two of the games they've released, Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey, were done in the precise same style _as _those timely Final Fantasies, and yet... they felt so horribly dated. I simply couldn't finish Lost Odyssey due to how slow its pace felt in contrast to today's games. In fact, I dare say I enjoyed FFXIII more, despite its over-linear style, simply because I gained at least a little enjoyment from mashing enemies so hastily. Lost Odyssey, on the other hand... It had everything my favourite FF titles had, but I just wasn't feeling it anymore.


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## Snowdog

I think the real problem is the huge advance in technology that is allowing games to come close to photo-realistic graphics. So much is focussed on providing the wow factor and instant gratification that gamers - especially younger gamers - expect, that other things, like depth and immersion, are given a lower priority or ignored entirely.

Games studios now spend millions to povide that wow factor, which basically bars smaller studios from competing in the same market.

Bethesda the shining star? They may be the best left, but the trend there isn't good either. Oblivion was a much simpler game than Morrowind, and already heading towards FPS-ville. It was only really saved by some great mods. Same for Fallout 3. I haven't played New Vegas but it sounds pretty much the same deal. We'll have to see whether Skyrim, once the initial gloss has worn off, has any real depth.

There will always be some niche products but I don't see a return to traditional RPGs, like the Wizardrys, Baldurs Gates and Might And Magics as major franchises. The market just isn't there.

OTOH, technology advances may end up giving us a game like Total Recall, that we actually participate in. That'll be way better


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## Karn Maeshalanadae

That's true about Bethesda's stuff, but Oblivion and the FNV still incorporated that RPG element. (Besides, some of the earliest classic RPGs were first-person dungeon crawlers, like the Lands of Lore series, the early D&D/Forgotten Realms series, and Eye of the Beholder.)


But yes, it seems that the RP element of RPGs has been going out for a long time now, since a lot of the young'uns don't seem t' have much in th' way o' imagination, don' ye know? But for me, graphics are never the sole major factor of a game for me. They usually aren't even any kind of major factor. Yes, I prefer the early FFs to the latest ones. (My favorite being X, though, but NOT X-2.)


And here's another issue I have-why did Final Fantasy stop allowing custom names? IX was the last one that allowed custom names for all the playable characters, and X was the last one to allow a custom name for even the main character. I don't get that. And the names that are inlaid for most of the characters in the later ones are just plain stupid as hell. I mean, come on. Hope for a male character?

And like in XII....Vaan? Penelo? What the hell?


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## Tecdavid

I would have thought the name issue rather obvious, Karn. Remember how none of X's characters actually spoke Tidus's name? Since you could rename him, there was no point in recording any dialogue which _used_ his name, as it'd be meaningless to call him "Jake" when every character keeps calling him "Tidus" - Square couldn't record voices for everything a player decided to name him.
I felt it was awkward enough that the characters visibly tried to avoid using Tidus's name for this reason (It was as if they'd all forgotten, and were too embarrassed to ask what it was) but imagine if _every_ character could have been renamed. The voiced dialogue would have been particularly bizarre. I think this is why they ditched the "name your character" feature for every voiced game since.


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## Karn Maeshalanadae

Yeah, but I really didn't mind the name drop. Preferred it to the favor of the custom name.


But that is just a small bonus I miss. And seriously, again, who comes up with names like Vaan? It's ugly to hear and uglier to look at. And as for Hope in FF XIII, wimpy though he is, I feel bad he has such a feminine name.


And going on for the name thing, Dragon Age. Have to follow a particular last name. *Shrugs* I suppose to cut down on potential CNA? (That would be Custom Name Abuse.)


Names aside, I still feel RPGs have, for the most part, fallen from grace, and landed with a hard slam.


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## juelz4sure

I dont know about actual companies but Lost Odysessy was one of the best rpgs ive played in years the story line is fantastic taking you on an emotional trip if you take the time to read the dream which are by the way fantastic. as a whole a great investment and if you like finding everything it takes a long time to beat.


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## Overread

I think part of the problem for the RPG games is that many of the big titles in the past were very strong single player games. Your big titles like Baldur's Gate were massive undertakings for a studio on the part of producing singleplayer content; RPGs are possibly the most involving in this aspect.

They can cheat and go the path that many RPGs from Japan take, which is to tell a story through predefined characters and plots where the player is mostly along for the ride, although might make a few key choices to either affect what parts of the story they see or even affect the very finale ending acts. 
This cuts production time considerably as there is only one key story to build, but lacks the interactive aspects.

Or they take the Baldur's Gate approach - by having a very loose and open worldset with a large amount of player interactive content. This requires bit investments in time to produce and balance, esp if they want to have multiple options and suchlike. 


However as games have gotten more graphically impressive that too adds a big pressure, especially for leading developers. They know that good graphics does sell, so here too is a big investment. And not just in scripting, but also building the worldset itself - in 2D old graphics a mountain might be 5 pixels high, but now its got to have caves and lighting and snow and a million and one other things added to it - time to make it goes up and up. 



Anyway I think we might well see a darth of big proper RPG games from the big companies - they'll make pretty ones and some good fun ones, but I think it will be a long while before the market is stable enough for them to risk putting so much time into singleplayer - esp when simple multiplayer has shown to be soooo sooooo profitable (and lets remember gaming itself is about big investments early on for a product that has a very short shelf life and does not have huge market). 

I think our big RPGs are more likely to come from the indy and smaller studios, ones which are a little more free on the time they have to develop and work within a niche market to start with and thus don't feel the same pressures to build a mass market appealing title. 

You've already some such as Spiderweb studios with their Geneforge and Avadon games 
http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/products.html
titles which are certainly not winning awards for pushing the limits of graphics, but which are held higher for their wider singleplayer content.


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## Galacticdefender

EA does not have horrible games. Mass Effect is an amazing RPG.

And Bethesda will always make awesome RPGs. Though I think it's time they started a new video game universe in which to set their RPG's. (Not to replace the others, I love ES and Fallout). I just think it would be cool to have maybe a space opera game in their style.


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## Karn Maeshalanadae

Galacticdefender said:


> EA does not have horrible games. Mass Effect is an amazing RPG.
> 
> And Bethesda will always make awesome RPGs. Though I think it's time they started a new video game universe in which to set their RPG's. (Not to replace the others, I love ES and Fallout). I just think it would be cool to have maybe a space opera game in their style.




I wasn't saying that EA didn't have good games. They do. What my problem is, is that they force their developers these days to rush most jobs in time for a Christmas season.


And yes, I do have to agree with you on Bethesda. They make excellent games, I found Skyrim to be vastly improved over Oblivion in terms of mechanics, and I would love to see a new universe from them. Not a space age game, I find those to be lame. Heh. But an entirely new fantasy setting would be awesome.


And on the Skyrim subject, I discovered one very open abuse of the level system-smithing. Especially if you're an archer. You go out and kill creatures like the mammoths, wolves, elk, anything that drops a hide, then you go to the starter town and can wind up smithing things like hundreds of leather bracers, within just a few hours you're up to level ten. That had a bigger leveling abuse to it than TES III and IV....


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## Galacticdefender

Have you ever played Mass Effect? If you consider yourself an RPG fan, I would definitely recommend it. Great story and great setting. Though if you don't like Scifi I don't know if  you'd like it much.


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## devilsgrin

Karn Maeshalanadae said:


> I wasn't saying that EA didn't have good games. They do. What my problem is, is that they force their developers these days to rush most jobs in time for a Christmas season.
> 
> 
> And yes, I do have to agree with you on Bethesda. They make excellent games, I found Skyrim to be vastly improved over Oblivion in terms of mechanics, and I would love to see a new universe from them. Not a space age game, I find those to be lame. Heh. But an entirely new fantasy setting would be awesome.
> 
> 
> And on the Skyrim subject, I discovered one very open abuse of the level system-smithing. Especially if you're an archer. You go out and kill creatures like the mammoths, wolves, elk, anything that drops a hide, then you go to the starter town and can wind up smithing things like hundreds of leather bracers, within just a few hours you're up to level ten. That had a bigger leveling abuse to it than TES III and IV....



lol, it might be levelling the character up... but its certainly not going to help him in combat at all. a level 10 whose smithing is really high is going to be crippled in combat. Archery is great (in fact better in this game than virtually any other), but it levels relatively slowly and in dungeons its hampered by short range.

Interesting that you want an entirely new fantasy setting using Sykrim's engine... when Tamriel is  a world that exists solely for the Elder Scrolls, and is bound by none of the traditional rules of the genre (i mean Skyrim gives us elves as the most powerful race in the world... almost no others do that, they're usually all "faded glory" blahblahblah)


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## thaddeus6th

I wonder what they'll do when they run out of provinces. I think they're about halfway through.

I'd love to see an Elder Scrolls style game but set in Ancient Greece, with tons of mythology. Wouldn't it be cool to side with Sparta against Athens (or vice versa), learn philosophy from Socrates and battle the Nemean Lion?

I also think Quokka's post is spot on. Valkyria Chronicles is a bit unusual but very enjoyable, and anyway who cites Phantasy Star IV as a fantastic rpg has fine judgement. It's still one of my favourites and, thanks to the PS2 Sega compilation release, I got to play it again a few years ago. It still stands up. The battles are fun (plus I love the fact that when you travel in vehicles you have random encounters using the vehicle's weaponry) and the story and characters are great.


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## Galacticdefender

I hope Fallout 4 will have more varied terrain. A mutated forest would be so awesome.


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## Warren_Paul

Galacticdefender said:


> EA does not have horrible games. Mass Effect is an amazing RPG.





Karn Maeshalanadae said:


> I wasn't saying that EA didn't have good games. They do. What my problem is, is that they force their developers these days to rush most jobs in time for a Christmas season.



Quote for truth, what Karn says is right. EA have a track record for buying out development studies and ruining them. Westwood Studios and Origin are two perfect examples.

The most recent perfect example is Dragon Age 2. They forced Bioware to rush it and the game was a disaster.

EA only think about the dollar signs, they don't care about the quality of games. At the moment Bethseda is our only hope really for quality RPGS. 

CD Project RED did well with The Witcher 2. They are working on a third one.

Richard Garriot (Lord Brittish), the creator of Ultima, is returning to the scene as well, working on a new game. Not sure on it yet though, I think he wants to make it online, browser based or something. New Brittania he is calling it. Can't call it Ultima because EA still have the rights to the name.


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## Karn Maeshalanadae

Well, that does sound nice....


But as a SNES generation kid, what I truly mourn are the good old battle menu turn-based RPGs. I swear, if an independent developer, even if it's one working on their own using something like RPG maker, can create one with a good story to it, I would play it. Because we all know that no mainstream company is ever going to make one like that ever again.


Gone, I suppose, are the old days. Games like the Nintendo Final Fantasy games, Breath of Fire, Chrono Trigger, Suikoden....*sigh*


Come to think of it, at this point, I'll settle for being able to name your party. As far as I've seen, FFIX was the last game to do that....


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## biodroid

I would say Bethesda is the leading force in RPG with the Elder Scrolls and Fallout series. I don't think EA owns them either. At one stage BioWare was the leader in RPG games like Neverwinter Nights etc. But then again EA is a franchise destroyer. 

If you have a PS3 try the Demon's Souls and Dark Soul's games. Those are supposed to be some of the best, most difficult but fair games on the market.


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## Warren_Paul

Karn Maeshalanadae said:


> Gone, I suppose, are the old days. Games like the Nintendo Final Fantasy games, Breath of Fire, Chrono Trigger, Suikoden....*sigh*



I know aye, I loved all those games. And the Sega competition, to date, Phantasy Star 4 is still one of my favourite all time RPGs.

Most companies are producing games just for money, gone are the days where making a "good" game was more important than profit. 

Silly thing is that years ago, when the penny pinchers cared about quality, they still made good profit, because the game was worth buying. and because of that they had a loyal fan base.




biodroid said:


> I would say Bethesda is the leading force in RPG with the Elder Scrolls and Fallout series. I don't think EA owns them either. At one stage BioWare was the leader in RPG games like Neverwinter Nights etc. But then again EA is a franchise destroyer.



Yeah, on PC it started as Origin, then it was Bioware, now its Bethseda. There is only one reason why... EA.



biodroid said:


> If you have a PS3 try the Demon's Souls and Dark Soul's games. Those are supposed to be some of the best, most difficult but fair games on the market.



Those two are very brutal, almost _too hard_.


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## thaddeus6th

Dragon Age 2 had some good points, but, as has been said, it was clearly rushed. I really like the game world and general approach, but copy and pasting umpteen dungeons (100% copies as well, not just features) and the strangely disjointed storyline was a great shame after Origins. 

I'm hoping DA3 actually gets enough time to be properly developed. And that it has a lady Qunari.


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## James Coote

Interestingly, the guy from spiderweb studios wrote an article just recently at http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6698/principles_of_an_indie_game_bottom_.php?page=1 talking about how indie developers can make a living off the more neglected genres in video gaming


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## biodroid

The problem with indie developers is that it seems their games lack quality or polish. Anyway they would need to acquire the rights right? How many millions would that cost?


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## Karn Maeshalanadae

Warren_Paul said:


> I know aye, I loved all those games. And the Sega competition, to date, Phantasy Star 4 is still one of my favourite all time RPGs.
> 
> Most companies are producing games just for money, gone are the days where making a "good" game was more important than profit.
> 
> Silly thing is that years ago, when the penny pinchers cared about quality, they still made good profit, because the game was worth buying. and because of that they had a loyal fan base.




Exactly. I was a loyal FF fan in the early days, until the game was ported to the Playstation. And in terms of good games of any genre, not just RPG, I was a loyal Mario fan, but the last Mario game I played was 64. I checked out others like Mario Galaxy and whatnot but none of them seemed to hold any appeal to me anymore.


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## Warren_Paul

James Coote said:


> Interestingly, the guy from spiderweb studios wrote an article just recently at http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6698/principles_of_an_indie_game_bottom_.php?page=1 talking about how indie developers can make a living off the more neglected genres in video gaming



This is what has led to the rise of Indie Developers, their little market has become very popular, especially since there are IDE's such as XNA that are free to use, have a platform to easily promote and sell their games (Xbox Live,  Steam), and the support community to go with it. 




biodroid said:


> The problem with indie developers is that it seems their games lack quality or polish. Anyway they would need to acquire the rights right? How many millions would that cost?



rights for what? If they are making their own RPG they already own the rights. Who says they have to make a sequel to another studio's games to be successful or good. There are good indie games out there that are very polished.

In fact, one particular indy game is very, _very_ successful at the moment, Minecraft. Just because it doesn't have eye-catching graphics, doesn't mean its a bad game. (that's what texture packs are for )


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## devilsgrin

thaddeus6th said:


> Dragon Age 2 had some good points, but, as has been said, it was clearly rushed. I really like the game world and general approach, but copy and pasting umpteen dungeons (100% copies as well, not just features) and the strangely disjointed storyline was a great shame after Origins.
> 
> I'm hoping DA3 actually gets enough time to be properly developed. And that it has a lady Qunari.



Well DA3 has already taken longer to come out than DA2 did from the release of the epic Origins.
So thats promising. They need to take cues from Bethesda. We WILL wait for a fantastic game... but we will most definetely tear shreds out of underdone trash.

My problem with DA2 was of course the rushedness (its a word since I used it, which makes it so, lol ) - the dungeon thing actually sickened me. But the biggest problem is the actual LACK of choice and consequence, when we were promised both. Hawke always ends up Champion regardless. We always lose a sibling in the prologue, regardless, and we always lose the other to wardens/templars/the circle/death, regardles. thats not choice, thats going along for the ride. 
Hawke is a spectator for most of the story. he/she is NEVER proactive, instead he/she spends the entire game reacting to your companions actions, or inexplicable NPC actions. The fact that a Mage Hawke can walk around with impunity for the entire game in a city renowned for both the fanaticism of its Templars and for almost megalomaniacal craziness of their Knight-Commander, is ludicrous. 
The Qunari phase is perhaps the strongest part of the game. And i truly enjoyed the arguments for and against the Qun. The Arishok is a very interesting character. One, i feel, who won more players over than the actual Qun could ever, just through his pure awesomeness.
The rest of the game is The Anders, Varric and Isabella show, also starring: Aveline, Merrill and Fenris, with special guest appearances by Cassandra Pentaghast, Prince Sebastian, Carver/Bethany, Mother, Dog (aww much love for Dog!!!), Meredith, Orsino. And Introducing LadyHawke/BroHawke in an entirely forgettable and largely irrelevent performance.


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## thaddeus6th

I read that DA3 will be looking at Skyrim very closely for possible ideas, and that the game will take place over a larger area than Ferelden. 

The Qunari were fantastic. Generally I'm not a fan of retconning (and wasn't taken with the darkspawn) but the Qunari looked and sounded great.

Some of the characters were good (Isabela, Aveline) but they never really hung together as a group. The cast of Origins was much stronger in that regard.


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## devilsgrin

thaddeus6th said:


> I read that DA3 will be looking at Skyrim very closely for possible ideas, and that the game will take place over a larger area than Ferelden.
> 
> The Qunari were fantastic. Generally I'm not a fan of retconning (and wasn't taken with the darkspawn) but the Qunari looked and sounded great.
> 
> Some of the characters were good (Isabela, Aveline) but they never really hung together as a group. The cast of Origins was much stronger in that regard.



i read about skyrim being a strong influence. Fingers crossed. 
Although, it only stands to reason, since DA:O (and the setting in Thedas) was very much inspired by The Witcher. 
DA2 lacked such a strong fantasy inspiration. Dragon Effect just didn't work - at least not as rushed as it ended up.


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## fxlive57

it took me two years to get to the Mines of Moria (playing about an hour or so a day), and I don't even prevent myself from out-levelling content!


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## Fairytale Jane

Play Fate the game if you're looking for an RPG. I'm still looking for a game I once played back in 2000. It lets you play a dragon and you get to burn down villages and destroy forests. The graphics were cool as well. Unfortunately every time the map was activated it would crash my computer. It's developers have long since abandoned the game.


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## The Procrastinator

Lamenting bygone RPGs - I have to post a huge Vale for New World Computing, authors of my favourite ever series, Might and Magic. Party-based (none of this one character only rubbish) and turn-based, so you could slow down the action to allow spells (and thought) during fighting if you wanted to. The earlier games had huge scope, 2d graphics (as did all games back then), very Dungeons and Dragons in feel, but with a touch of SF added to the mix (usually late in each game). Might and Magic 6 brought the game into the 3D world, slightly limiting the multi-character options but still with huge scope for exploration. Unfortunately at that point New World Computing was eaten by 3DO, who then proceeded to make each sequel less satisfying - smaller, more restricted choices, faster to complete - cost cutting I guess. The series made it to M&M 9 before total death. I think 3DO itself is dead now...

But I still love this series and replay it now and then, and remember New World Computing and JVC very fondly.


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## Miggy

The only decent thing left for RPG gamers is of course...

RE RELEASING THE OLD ONES

Don't know if any of you have been following, but their releasing an enhanced version of Baldur's Gate - adding new content, a slew of fixes as well as mod support and updated graphical options.

Can't post link but just search for it.

Should be coming out pretty soon. I'll make sure my friend gets this because he recently started playing a little DnD so hopefully this awesome series will help him out and take 600 hours of his life away.


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## Karn Maeshalanadae

Releasing an "enhanced" version of Baldur's Gate? With Black Isle dead and gone?


I don't think it'll be the same, somehow...


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## Gramm838

I can't believe there are 3 pages of replies to this thread an no-one has mentioned the grandaddy of all MMOs - EVE Online.

It's a true sandbox game and there are plenty of RP corporations to join - and they seem to take their RP seriously - I play almost every day and there are usually around 40,000 players on in UK evening time.

It does however have a very steep learning curve and it's not for everyone - but for something to really get your teeth into, I don't think it can be bettered.

G


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## Karn Maeshalanadae

Maybe so, Gramm, but I wasn't really talking about the slew of MMOs out there. I meant good, solid, single-player games. I've stated before that I, for one, never get a good experience out of player interaction because I always seem to wind up with immature idiots. Plus, even with MMOs with a story to them, that always seems to fade into obscurity with all the chat yelling and errand-running that they all seem to love to do, and tend to have to be forced to do as you're never given enough leveling through any decent amount of combat. Want to avoid these messenger-boy quests? Fifteen hours of tedious grinding!


Hmm. No thank you.


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## thaddeus6th

I'm also not into multiplayer. For me, computer games are the antithesis of bowling, and ought to be done alone.


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## Gramm838

Karn Maeshalanadae said:


> Maybe so, Gramm, but I wasn't really talking about the slew of MMOs out there. I meant good, solid, single-player games. I've stated before that I, for one, never get a good experience out of player interaction because I always seem to wind up with immature idiots. Plus, even with MMOs with a story to them, that always seems to fade into obscurity with all the chat yelling and errand-running that they all seem to love to do, and tend to have to be forced to do as you're never given enough leveling through any decent amount of combat. Want to avoid these messenger-boy quests? Fifteen hours of tedious grinding!
> 
> 
> Hmm. No thank you.



But can you really RP in any game without interaction with other people (as opposed to a game AI)? If you are only ever responding/reacting to a programmed game AI, your own responses are surely also 'programmed' to a certain extent?

I can understand the attraction of an RTS game for solo play, but not for RP.

Of course one other thing to consider (bearing in mind that I don't know you from Adam so please don't take this as an insult) is that it might in fact be you that other players consider is the 'immature idiot'?!


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## Venusian Broon

Gramm838 said:


> But can you really RP in any game without interaction with other people (as opposed to a game AI)?


 
Aren't we talking apples and oranges here - MMO's are great in their way, massive sandbox enviroments, masses of content, interaction with real people, teamplay. (And yes Eve online I got a bit addicted to, tis a brilliant game, but I tired of grinding and some of the changes peed me off a bit.) 

But you can't be _the _Hero with these games - you're just a part of the crowd doing a quest/battle/errand/grind. You're a small cog in a much bigger engine - when sometimes you want to be a Ferrari! With something like Oblivion* you are in the spotlight. It therefore feels more meaningful in some deeper personal way.


* I haven't got Skyrim because I have far too many things to do to burn up my life on that one right now


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## Gramm838

I don't know if you're aware but there is a Firefly-based MMO on the cards - check out www.fireflyuniverseonline.com

It was due for release on 26/12 but it appears that it may have run into some licensing issues


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## Karn Maeshalanadae

Gramm838 said:


> But can you really RP in any game without interaction with other people (as opposed to a game AI)? If you are only ever responding/reacting to a programmed game AI, your own responses are surely also 'programmed' to a certain extent?
> 
> I can understand the attraction of an RTS game for solo play, but not for RP.
> 
> Of course one other thing to consider (bearing in mind that I don't know you from Adam so please don't take this as an insult) is that it might in fact be you that other players consider is the 'immature idiot'?!




The thing is, no single-player RPG is truly RPG in the sense of the term, but they focus on story and character development, and is the most friendly type of game to fantasy, which is just icing on the cake for me. As for the second part, well, that might be true from time to time, but when I say those I interact with are immature idiots, I mean the type to follow you around like a puppy begging for help and even if you let them down gently as possible, they turn into a three-year-old being pulled away from the candy aisle. On an MMO called Perfect World I actually had a 9-year-old kid chasing me around once who would not shut up.

The best MMO experience I ever had was with Guild Wars, that one I actually enjoyed. I managed to get in good with a great guild with truly mature, nice players. Unfortunately, the laptop I had it on had died and after that point I lost my disks, so...yeah.

No, I'd like to get Kingdom of Amalur, and just hope that Bioware can come up with something down the line that at least nods at their past exploits. I feel Mass Effect 3 saved their ass after the humiliating travesty that was DA2. Apparently EA can't ruin EVERY game. 

As for Blizzard, I don't think I'll ever support them again. I loved them back in the days of Black Isle, and Diablo 2, but Diablo 3 was such a huge letdown, and I only wish they had kept Warcraft up as an RTS series instead of crumbling under the bank and turning it into an MMO. I didn't want to have to keep paying a monthly fee to play a game. A one-time is fine enough.

That being said, over Christmas I got a pretty decent game called Venetica. I don't know how big Deck13 is, but they did a good job with it.


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## Snowdog

Miggy said:


> The only decent thing left for RPG gamers is of course...
> 
> RE RELEASING THE OLD ONES
> 
> Don't know if any of you have been following, but their releasing an enhanced version of Baldur's Gate - adding new content, a slew of fixes as well as mod support and updated graphical options.
> 
> Can't post link but just search for it.
> 
> Should be coming out pretty soon. I'll make sure my friend gets this because he recently started playing a little DnD so hopefully this awesome series will help him out and take 600 hours of his life away.



I was gearing up for another romp through Baldur's Gate. It looks like BGEE will add lots of things without making any great changes to game mechanics. In other words, they shouldn't be able to screw it up. However, it's got DRM and looks like it's going to be subject to that curse of modern games, an online account and DLC. You'll get half a game with add-ons and patches being eked out over time. Also online activation means dependence on a forever-existing server if you ever want to re-install. Since the core of the game is the already existing Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 anyway, you might be better off buying those from GOG (if you don't already own them) and loading up some mods for additional content.


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## nubins

OP is overly harsh on Oblivion. Oblivion were doing games for other people, on a budget controlled by publishers. None of their games were ever released in the state they intended, just what they were told to do.

Their new RPG project is kickstarter funded and so really is the first game that can truly be called 100% Oblivion software. Hopefully it will be great, it sounds like it will so far.


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## Jacob Larch

I've never had the chance to play online RPG's but I have run my own RPG table top game every Monday night for years. Naturally, finding like minded people to do such a thing can be tough but I've been fortunate to streamline the group over the years to let the best players remain and allow the rest to disappear. 

Power gamers, rules lawyers, selfish gamers, all have bitten the dust and those that remain are one of the most fun, lively, sarcastic, cynical, and enjoyable bunch of people I could call friends. 

I've been role playing (table top) since 1977 and after being forced into refereeing in 1982, I never looked back. 30 years later, and I still run regular campaigns with existing rules systems but write my own campaigns that sometimes go beyond the limits of the original game design. 

A while back we identified that some of the group would be bored with the same game week in week out, so I adapted to create "campaigns" of 3-4 months length, interspersed with "fillers" of 3-5 weeks. 

So in recent years, the campaigns have been on the lines of: 

Champions (a super hero system) but set in a near future America where 1% of the worlds' population has Gifted abilities and are persecuted. (ironically, we started playing this a year before Heroes came out on network television; but the group still preferred our story because it went global. I can't comment: never had time to watch Heroes)

Star Frontiers (remember that? The old TSR science fiction game? Someone did a fantastic load of work on the internet and turned it into "military sci fi game for gun nuts" but Star Frontiers still had at its core the ideal that ships are BIG. I mean Leviathan big, Starship Troopers big, so don't think you're going to be a bunch of players running round like Han Solo in a starship...so I created a hard SF but militaristic based game on a world without starships. 

Rolemaster (middle earth role playing- one of the best campaigns Iron Crown ever devised) set in the fourth age where magic using characters have their powers curtailed because of the rise of an organised human religion.

The fillers tend to be things like: 

Boot Hill: that other TSR game, this time for the wild west. Also known as comedy central for the amount of innuendo, in-jokes, and western movie mick-taking that goes on. 

Flashing Blades: renaissance role playing in the 17th century: brilliant for finding a real event and setting a game to it. Last time we played, I had the party on the slopes of Versuvius in 1631. Just before it erupted....

Twilight 2000: adapted for WW2, this runs like a "carry on commando" game with a dusty dozen British or commonwealth chaps (and chapesses) take on the Hun and deliver a stiff punch to Hitler's minions! Another great game for sheer comedy, despite the subject matter. 

Phoenix Command (a modern and ultra-modern combat system) adapted to a near future skirmish campaign where gladiators compete in a live blood sport for the chance to escalate their families from Bondsman to Freeman status in the new world order.

So table top roleplaying needn't be constrained to the games that are "out there" or faded rules systems. Take a system, play with it, have fun with it, and enjoy!


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## Lucky_Lola

I know the OP has said they're not talking about MMO's per se... but I just have to throw it in here that Ultima Online is still running. Yes, the hubby and I hiss and boo at EA every month when we pay our subs, but nothing - _nothing_ beats the total sandbox. Yes, it's 2D iso. Yes, it's old and a little clunky. But it just celebrated it's 15th birthday - 15 years of constant, uninterrupted gameplay, despite EA, heh. I refuse to be dragged around by a game, told that I must to XY and Z in order to go to Town P. UO doesn't do that, never has. I know people who spend all their in-game time gardening. Yeah. Growing plants. Still can't beat the player housing system, either.

Anyway, my two cents. I know virtually nothing about single player RPGs, but I will always call Sosaria my second home.


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## Foxbat

I'm being sorely tempted to try a mod for ARMA 2 called Dayz. Although ARMA 2 itself is something of a FPS, Dayz is a different kettle of fish. You start in a zombie infested landscape with, basically, nothing. You have to scavange, find food and water, find guns & ammo. You can even hunt animals and cook them (cooked meat gives higher health points) whilst all the time, avoid zombies. One twist in this game is that other players are often more dangerous. If they are merciful, they will kill and rob you. If they are feeling nasty, they will just rob you and leave you to the zombies. One other thing - when you're dead, that's it. You have to start over. Average player lifespan is a couple of hours.  The point is to survive. I should also add
  that your status is persistent across servers - meaning you carry all your loot, health etc when you disconnect and then log on to another server.

This (to me) is fundamentally an RPG (and a sandbox game)and I think I've just convinced myself to buy ARMA 2 and then download the mod (it's still only in alpha but looking good).

You can check out some fan made videos of the game on Youtube (many are hilarious).


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## Karn Maeshalanadae

Thing with DayZ is, though, is it is permadeath. You die, you need to create a new character and start from scratch. Yeah, it's technically RPG, but I looked it over and it's not that interesting to me. Besides, it's another MMO.


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## nubins

Project Eternity is the one to watch, not due until 2014 though


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