# Cover concept art -- opinions please



## HareBrain (Jul 20, 2014)

Attached is a sketch I made for a book cover. Forgive its, er, energetic roughness, for which I believe the technical term is "scribbling". And ignore the lettering. In case it's not clear, it's an underwater scene showing a freediver (i.e. wetsuit and fins, but no scuba tank) diving though a shaft of light towards a large stone medusa-like head resting on the seabed. Possible hints of other things in the background: sunken steamship, ancient buildings etc. I imagine greeny-blues and high contrast.

Would/does this make a good book cover, do people think?


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## alchemist (Jul 20, 2014)

Hi HB. I was going to email you about this, but here we are...

The image seems quite redolent of classic SFF to me; Boy's Own adventures, that sort of stuff.I like it, but I would worry that it doesn't seem Fantasy enough. Maybe it needs another element to add that extra factor.


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## Ray McCarthy (Jul 20, 2014)

Might be fine. hard to know without seeing a final version.
Of course when you are really famous the title is small at the bottom and your name is twice the size of your example text   Not only that, but probably some agency is paid silly money to produce a poorer idea.

Me Cynical?


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## HareBrain (Jul 20, 2014)

Thanks chaps.



Ray McCarthy said:


> Might be fine. hard to know without seeing a final version.



Trouble is, a decent final version would be beyond my own abilities and I'll have to pay for it, hence canvassing opinion first. Though I could do a less rough one with some colour.

Alc, if you have any ideas about this missing element, gimme.


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## alchemist (Jul 20, 2014)

HareBrain said:


> Thanks chaps.
> 
> 
> Alc, if you have any ideas about this missing element, gimme.



Well, I know there's an encounter with a spirit down there. A full-on spectre might draw too much attention, so how about a ghostly presence in the background; vague, like a watermark, as if only the reader can see it and the diver is unaware?


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## HareBrain (Jul 20, 2014)

alchemist said:


> Well, I know there's an encounter with a spirit down there.



That's sort of encapsulated by the stone head, which is a symbol of the whole concept rather than anything actually in the story.

What if I could make the goddess's head/mask seem like something half-stone, half-alive? Something ancient and fossilised reawakening?


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## Teresa Edgerton (Jul 20, 2014)

My suggestion is that you don't make it too busy.  You need a striking image (which you have now), but you shouldn't distract too much from the title or your name.  You need relatively blanks spaces for those.  Hints of other things in the background sound good if they are shadowy. I know you said ignore the lettering, but I assume the cross-hatching at the top left is supposed to indicate a basically empty area of water so that the title will show up well?


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## HareBrain (Jul 20, 2014)

Teresa Edgerton said:


> I know you said ignore the lettering, but I assume the cross-hatching at the top left is supposed to indicate a basically empty area of water so that the title will show up well?



I'm not sure. As you can see, I experimented with putting the title in the top-left, but I don't think that works, and I think it would be better, as you say, to have a clear area at the top for the title, and my name at the bottom. But that then leaves the top-left area of dark water rather blank -- unless it's that area that could include some suggestion of a submerged building.

(The basic idea with the "suggested" elements would be to make only the main elements visible in the thumbnail, to keep it simple and contrasty, with the suggested elements only visible at full-size, to make the full-size version more interesting.)


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## alchemist (Jul 20, 2014)

HareBrain said:


> That's sort of encapsulated by the stone head, which is a symbol of the whole concept rather than anything actually in the story.
> 
> What if I could make the goddess's head/mask seem like something half-stone, half-alive? Something ancient and fossilised reawakening?



As a plain head, it could just be a temple and nothing more. But if it seems half-alive, it would work better for me. How you/the artist does that is another matter!


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## Brian G Turner (Jul 20, 2014)

Personally I would suggest something more neutral - a plain cover with the medusa-head in the centre. That would allow it to appeal to a wider range of readers, while providing a striking image to show on Amazon thumbnails.

If you don't want to pay for an artist, I'm sure you should be able to lift a photo of an actual archaeological piece that fits your story - at least roughly.

You taking this the self-published route, then? Would have thought you'd get somewhere with this among agents?


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## Jo Zebedee (Jul 20, 2014)

For me, it doesn't do the story justice - sorry. It looks like a boy's own adventure and not carrying the gravitas TGP deserves. Also, on a thumbnail I think it'll be busy. 

What happened to that amazing local artist you chatted to?


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## Teresa Edgerton (Jul 20, 2014)

The diving is important to the story though, and with the right artist an underwater scene could look magical.

I'm trying to remember, aren't the temples pyramids?  Underwater pyramids in the background would suggest a fantasy world to me.


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## HareBrain (Jul 20, 2014)

Thanks for the replies, all.



springs said:


> For me, it doesn't do the story justice - sorry. It looks like a boy's own adventure and not carrying the gravitas TGP deserves. Also, on a thumbnail I think it'll be busy.



Busy even though there are only really two elements, the diver and the head, that would be visible in a thumbnail?



> What happened to that amazing local artist you chatted to?



She'll need some idea of what I want, though.




I said:


> Personally I would suggest something more neutral - a plain cover with the medusa-head in the centre. That would allow it to appeal to a wider range of readers, while providing a striking image to show on Amazon thumbnails.



Robert Masello has a cover something like that for The Medusa Amulet

Interestingly, whilst looking for that link, I came across this.

Which is freakishly apposite, because it shows a stylised medusa-type goddess _inside a pyramid_!

I'm wondering if something like that would work better?



> You taking this the self-published route, then? Would have thought you'd get somewhere with this among agents?



Maybe I would, but I'm thinking I'd like to go self-published for this one, for several reasons. I hope to have other irons in the traditional fire before too long.


By the way, if anyone who knows the story would like to suggest possible subjects for a cover, I'd love to hear them.


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## Jo Zebedee (Jul 20, 2014)

Sorry was a little harried earlier when I replied. I know the diving is essential, so have no problem with that. But yes, the shaft of light, the various colours, the other hints and a title and author's name - I think it could be busy (but my current obsession is the reduction of detail.) 

Re what I'd like more - the scaping. It's more central than the ziggurats and all, and would fit so well with what your artist was good at - the natural stuff. I'd love an Orc/Otter dreamlike, magey cover. Which helps not at all but you did ask.

And re self-published. I think you could get an agent but whatever way you go, I'll buy it. I need to know what happens, darn it.


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## HareBrain (Jul 21, 2014)

springs said:


> not carrying the gravitas TGP deserves.





springs said:


> I'd love an Orc/Otter dreamlike, magey cover.



Because nothing has more gravitas than an otter in a mask. 

I kid, I kid. Actually, after thinking the idea unworkable, I did come up with two possibilities to do with the scaping scenes. (Sadly, Orc's scaping scenes with Otter aren't as exciting as Hana's.)

The first is Orc and Otter descending the back stairs at the hotel:



> The ends of roots appeared through the faded wallpaper; ivy mantled the stair-rail. Down and round they went, until they’d gone several times the height of the hotel, and the walls were damp earth and the steps rough-shaped stone, and water dripped, and the only light came from the landing high above and the Otherworld still far below.



In this case I might go for a POV angle and colour range something like this cover. I think it would look intriguing at full-size -- Orc's tattoos, Otter in his mask, nature taking over the staircase and the light coming from the bottom -- but it might look quite muddy as a thumbnail.

Then there's the road of bones from Orc's scape on the ship:



> There was no ship’s corridor, but a vast mire of red mud beneath a red sky heavy with drifting smoke. Bodies and machine-wreckage littered the wasteland: soldiers and heavy guns and, insanely, warships grounded in mud, and other machines Orc couldn’t identify, and shreds of flags.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Then an idea came to him. He tried to assert a road, to create it by visualising it. And a road came. But instead of stone paving, what pushed up through the mud and the bodies and the wreckage were bones, interlocking to make a trackway.




In this one, I picture us facing Orc and Otter on the road with it receding behind them, surrounded by the red landscape. I think this could be very effective full-size, and might also intrigue as a thumbnail because why is someone standing in a red landscape? I also think it works well with the title, because it suggests that the war-wrecked world is part of the Goddess Project, or a result of it.

Any thoughts on those?


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## The Judge (Jul 21, 2014)

My only thought is the sadly depressing one that book covers aren't there to illustrate the book, but to make readers pick the book up.  To that end, wonderful as those ideas appear to me, particularly the latter** a half-naked Cass might be a better actual draw.


** I can envisage the Nash Totes Meer as the background


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## HareBrain (Jul 21, 2014)

The Judge said:


> My only thought is the sadly depressing one that book covers aren't there to illustrate the book, but to make readers pick the book up.



Absolutely, and that's really what I'm working on, but I can only go (at the moment) by what kind of cover makes me pick up a book. I love the Peake cover I linked to, for example, but a quick look round Waterstone's this morning made me wonder what most of the publishers were thinking.

Actually, I used to be involved with some online surveys for new books put out by a major publisher, and now I think about it, they didn't seem to have much of a clue either.


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## Jo Zebedee (Jul 21, 2014)

Be nice, Monsieur Hare.   

I like the idea of either of those - they're less generic, for a start. A man diving for a statue tells us little about the book, or even the genre - it could be James Bond, or a crime, or a love story set under the waves, tra-la, or historical... A bridge of bones, or roots appearing through wallpaper, at least say fantasy of some kind to me. And I think if one could convert to a thumbnail well, that'd be good.


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## HareBrain (Jul 21, 2014)

OK, I've done a "better" version of the diving one where hopefully the fantasy elements are more obvious (though because it's coloured pencils I couldn't get the light/shade contrasty enough -- also I didn't leave enough space at the top for lettering) and a quick mock-up of the "road of bones" one (you'll have to accept my word that Orc's face looked great until I inked over it). Any thoughts?


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## Abernovo (Jul 21, 2014)

I quite like the diving version, but it doesn't tell me it's fantasy*. It could be an adventure, as others have commented, although the giant underwater snakes make it less likely. Perhaps some ghostly light/presence in the background would do it? Or a simple picture of the statue's face, maybe with scenes going on in her eyes? As TJ says, it doesn't have to be exact to the story so much as in the spirit and intended to draw the casual browser in.

Not so keen on the standing figure. Too static for my tastes. And, of course, my usual caveat that this is all only my (perhaps dodgy) opinion. Best of luck with it, mate. 


*Despite the not fantasy enough comment, I'm not keen on covers that bludgeon me over the head with genre. They can be too reminiscent of the poor quality, lurid covers of the 70s (although some are more recent) that in my opinion give many sff books a bad image, and poorly represent the genres.  /soapbox being put away.


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## The Judge (Jul 21, 2014)

To my mind, the bone road one doesn't work with the full length Orc facing the viewer like that.  I was trying to remember the many man-in-a-cloak covers of recent fantasy -- I think they are mostly depicted as if the man is moving, so the cloak/clothes are swirling around him, making him look active and dangerous.  Here for my taste Orc is too stiff, too static, and looks a bit childish.  So I think if you want to go down this path (ha!)  he must be walking, and he must seem to be more dominant than he is, since this version gives the impression of a loser, which may be more accurate for the story, but isn't enticing enough.  Personally, though, I'd show him in close up, head and shoulders only, perhaps looking away from the camera and down at the bones and the dead sea beyond him, so only in profile, to show his tattoo mask, with Otter on his shoulder staring boldly at the viewer.

I quite like the diving one, but I'm not convinced it's grabby enough, unfortunately.


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## Jo Zebedee (Jul 21, 2014)

I second the Judge's post. Which saves time.


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## HareBrain (Jul 21, 2014)

Thanks again guys.



The Judge said:


> Personally, though, I'd show him in close up, head and shoulders only, perhaps looking away from the camera and down at the bones and the dead sea beyond him, so only in profile, to show his tattoo mask, with Otter on his shoulder staring boldly at the viewer.



I do like the idea of Otter staring at the viewer with Orc looking away. An alternative to your suggestion might be to have Orc head-and-shoulders from the rear, looking towards the door at the end of the road, with Otter on his shoulders staring  back at the viewer. But I guess not showing Orc's face would be a bit of a no-no.

I'm not sure how much of the bone-road would be visible in a head-and-shoulders version, though.



> I quite like the diving one, but I'm not convinced it's grabby enough, unfortunately.



Bah. Why can't more people realise that freediving is the coolest thing ever?



springs said:


> I second the Judge's post.



Including the head-and-shoulders suggestion?


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## Jo Zebedee (Jul 21, 2014)

Yeah, I quite liked the idea of the close-up and the tats and what not.


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## HareBrain (Jul 21, 2014)

Right, potatoes it is.

This idea of someone looking to the right whilst someone or something else stares at the viewer is bugging me because it feels familiar. Any ideas why? It feels like a vague memory of an existing book cover or a film poster/DVD cover.


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## The Judge (Jul 21, 2014)

HareBrain said:


> An alternative to your suggestion might be to have Orc head-and-shoulders from the rear, looking towards the door at the end of the road, with Otter on his shoulders staring  back at the viewer. But I guess not showing Orc's face would be a bit of a no-no.


I wondered about that, but I do think the tattoos are important -- and if done right I think they will add to a feeling of menace.  (There was a Star Trek: Voyager episode where the crew were re-imagined by people who were working from what were to them historical records, and the re-imagined Chakotay went from having a few lines on his forehead/temple to a full-on Maori-type thing, and by gum was he suddenly a lot more dangerous-looking!)



> I'm not sure how much of the bone-road would be visible in a head-and-shoulders version, though.


I'd already worried about that, but if you can't position the camera above Orc somehow to get a suitable shot, could you have the bone-road going up a hill or somesuch? 



HareBrain said:


> This idea of someone looking to the right whilst someone or something else stares at the viewer is bugging me because it feels familiar.


Yep, it was familiar to me, too.  No idea where it's come from, though!

NB Not quite, but


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## HareBrain (Jul 21, 2014)

I assume the copyright has expired on that painting. Couldn't I just use that?


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## Teresa Edgerton (Jul 21, 2014)

I really like the diving one with the snakes.  The snakes make it fantasy enough for me, and it doesn't look like the same old tired sort of thing you see on so many covers.

Perhaps the best idea would be to run some of your sketches past your cover artist, kick around some ideas together, and see what inspires them.  (Reminding them that it has to work as cover art -- strong image that looks good in thumbnail, relatively blank or shadowy spaces for the writing -- and not just a work of art to put on the wall.)


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## HareBrain (Jul 21, 2014)

Thanks Teresa. You have great taste.

Good advice on brainstorming with the artist, but I have one more thing to try on here, I think. I've been reworking the bone-road one seen from slightly above (and following most of TJ's other suggestions), and from my incredibly rough sketch so far, I really like it. I'll try to work that up tomorrow.


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## Cat's Cradle (Jul 21, 2014)

As a reader, I would really be drawn to the revised diving/snake cover. There's something that seems retro cool to me about this one...it seems timeless to me. With the right color scheme this could be a really classic cover. I would grab this book, and examine it front and back in a second.  Just another opinion, CC


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## HareBrain (Jul 21, 2014)

Cat's Cradle said:


> With the right color scheme this could be a really classic cover.



Thanks, CC. Did you have a different colour scheme in mind?

I couldn't resist colouring up my rough sketch for the revised bones one. Here it is. (Orc needs darkening to stand out from the road, especially for the thumbnail.)


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## Ursa major (Jul 21, 2014)

Here's another vote for the "diver and snakes" cover.


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## tinkerdan (Jul 22, 2014)

If you have them make it something simple like this:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-fITvAVxqx3bzdBeW1PZDZBaGs/edit?usp=sharing

I think it will work.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Jul 22, 2014)

That's pretty awesome, but I don't know how well it would look in print instead of on a computer screen.  I know the title wouldn't show up.


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## tinkerdan (Jul 22, 2014)

It doesn't need to be that color:




Teresa Edgerton said:


> That's pretty awesome, but I don't know how well it would look in print instead of on a computer screen.  I know the title wouldn't show up.


A bit of shadowing would work though if it was.


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## Cat's Cradle (Jul 22, 2014)

Hey HB. A few quick thoughts...so, I don't know the story well, except the bits I've gleaned here, and that's of course what a cover or thumbnail can do for you‐‐give you a snapshot of a moment from the story. And that's why I love the snakes/diver shot...it's  visceral, you sense an ominous silence in the scene and tension and suspense...I mean, you almost hold your breath with the diver. For my tastes, this cover would really grab me. 

And I love the way you've colored this, sorry I didn't mean change the palette, I meant don't let anyone change the palette!  Sea greens...maybe a bit of turquoise, some greens muted, some more vibrant. Maybe a bit of blue here and there, but my preference would be for no explosion of colors. Just keep the feeling that you are there with the diver, and I think the colors you've chosen does that.  Not sure if I helped, or muddied the waters, but best of luck! Is there a thread here which might tell more about the storyline, I'm quite curious, CC


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## HareBrain (Jul 22, 2014)

tinkerdan said:


> If you have them make it something simple like this:



Thanks, I do quite like the clean simplicity of that, but I really want hand-drawn art (not by me, I hasten to add). It's what tends to attract me to a book if it's done well. Of course, not everyone's the same, but I think I'd have to be mad to go with a cover that didn't at least attract me.



Cat's Cradle said:


> Is there a thread here which might tell more about the storyline, I'm quite curious, CC



Hi CC, there's an old synopsis here.


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## The Judge (Jul 22, 2014)

I think the new bone-road one is a great improvement on the original.  Well done.

Now do a third scene, and as Teresa suggests discuss them with your artist and see which he/she is happiest with.


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## Cat's Cradle (Jul 22, 2014)

HareBrain said:


> Hi CC, there's an old synopsis here.



Sounds really cool, HB! I'll be there if it will available for e-readers!  CC


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## Darkchild130 (Jul 22, 2014)

The diver and snakes one is far more striking than the road and bones cover.


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## HareBrain (Jul 22, 2014)

The Judge said:


> Now do a third scene



Are you never satisfied?  Like what? Any ideas?



Cat's Cradle said:


> Sounds really cool, HB! I'll be there if it will available for e-readers!  CC



Thanks! That's the idea.



Darkchild130 said:


> The diver and snakes one is far more striking than the road and bones cover.



Thanks for the input. Just to check: you mean the second road/bones one rather than just the first?


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## Darkchild130 (Jul 22, 2014)

I mean all of them. The diver and snakes is the best one out of your designs by a long shot.

The composition catches the eye and makes me wonder what it's all about. The others... Not so much.


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## The Judge (Jul 22, 2014)

HareBrain said:


> Are you never satisfied? Like what? Any ideas?


Tashi fighting the Goddess came to mind, but it morphed into one of those 1950s pulp SF covers as I imagined it, so perhaps not.   Mrs Fusilli's death is probably too gory.  Anything with the ships is probably not fantasy enough.  I'll have a think.


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## Jo Zebedee (Jul 22, 2014)

The mother hare scene?


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## alchemist (Jul 22, 2014)

Goddess v the ships? But that's also pulpy.

Tashi berserking?


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## HareBrain (Jul 22, 2014)

Thanks for the continued suggestions. I'd rather not get too hung up on what happens in the story. I think using elements and characters to suggest the story, or stand for its themes, or whatever, might be better than illustrating a particular scene -- that's what I tried to do with both the cover designs so far. I think it's rare for UK covers to illustrate a particular event, and with good reason.

I'd be quite keen to try one with Nightfire, if I could think of a way of including a fantasy element in the picture. I thought, for example, of having it viewed from astern and to one side with the island in the background.


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## Mouse (Jul 22, 2014)

As someone who's probably gonna end up with a front cover with a springer spaniel on come December, and as an animal lover... I really don't like animals on book covers. I think they make books look too cutesy.


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## The Judge (Jul 23, 2014)

Had a thought.  Instead of a scene, what about just a relatively simple image eg the Mandala, or Seraph and Chthonis entwined around each other?  You could have it that on the thumbnail the background looks plain black but on the full-sized version there are ghostly images eg of Nightfire, eg Tashi in armour, swirling around.


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## HareBrain (Jul 23, 2014)

Mouse said:


> I really don't like animals on book covers. I think they make books look too cutesy.



I'm going to assume (unless you tell me otherwise) that this doesn't apply to giant underwater snakes.

OK, I think the "road" one is out, though I like the image. Here's my third and probably last concept. In case it's not clear (which wouldn't surprise me) the face at the bottom (meant to resemble the one in the diving pic, with suggested snakes etc) is in sunlit shallow water in the foreground, ie not directly below the ship, and distorted by surface movement, as though coming up from the depths. The contrast between it and the deep blue sea around would be much more marked than I've managed to do it.

Better/worse than the diving one?


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## Cat's Cradle (Jul 23, 2014)

One vote for the diving/snakes picture. This new one isn't bad, but the diving one pulls me in...I feel instant affinity with the person in that picture‐‐I mentioned earlier that you almost hold your breath with the diver in that silent, perilous, underwater world.

This new one seems a bit impersonal to me‐‐too far removed from the characters of the story.


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## Jo Zebedee (Jul 23, 2014)

Any way you could put a diver in the new one? I like that it has the steamships and what not and shows some of what's so unique about your world; the mix of steampunky and fantasy.


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## Mouse (Jul 23, 2014)

I can handle big snakes.


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## alchemist (Jul 23, 2014)

I like the new one, but prefer the diver. The ship doesn't look fearsome enough; in thumbnail it looks more like a passenger ship. To work, it needs to ... bristle ... more.




(note how I avoided Mouse's comment. See who's got her mojo back...)


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## HareBrain (Jul 23, 2014)

AARGH! Why is this so hard?



The Judge said:


> Had a thought.  Instead of a scene, what about just a relatively simple image eg the Mandala, or Seraph and Chthonis entwined around each other?



Missed this earlier because our posts crossed. I've had similar thoughts, but I think it would be abstract and unrelatable, and might seem too similar to the Wheel of Time UK covers.



springs said:


> Any way you could put a diver in the new one? I like that it has the steamships and what not and shows some of what's so unique about your world; the mix of steampunky and fantasy.



Yes, this is the advantage of the ship one: it sets up the world. It also has a designed-in space for the title in the centre and in a larger font. But I really can't see how I can get a diver in there.



alchemist said:


> The ship doesn't look fearsome enough; in thumbnail it looks more like a passenger ship. To work, it needs to ... bristle ... more.



And if I could make it do that, somehow, would that change your mind? (Trouble is, I've already exaggerated the size of the guns. What if it was painted in that zig-zag camouflage scheme?)




I'd be happy to go with the diving one, I think. (CC, thanks for your enthusiasm!) The only little niggle I have about it (sorry if I've said the same up-thread) is that a reader who got halfway through chapter one might say "Ah! This is what the cover's a picture of" -- and that might suggest they've already read the most exciting bit. Is that a genuine potential problem, or am I massively overthinking it?


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## Cat's Cradle (Jul 23, 2014)

Oh dear, I am probably posting too many thoughts here, BUT...RE:your new question about whether it might be a problem that the picture references something that happens in the first chapter‐‐‐well, perhaps it might help to bond the reader to the character. There might be a sense of familiarity "Oh, there's the character from the cover, I know them! I can't wait to see what happens to them next!"

The only thing that ever disappointed me about book‐cover illustrations was when it was clear that the artist had never read the work*...so, when the cover art was something kind of approximating what happened in the book, but really it was completely different from what happened in the book. And since you wrote this, that's not likely to happen!  

That said though, I do find it wise to go with springs in these sorts of issues...she's really smart!     Good luck! CC

* well, also when the monster/dinosaur/alien/flying saucer was really underwhelming, and not nearly as cool as you imagined it!


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## Jo Zebedee (Jul 23, 2014)

Ah, no, don't go with me on these things. (But ty.) all I'll say is I totally sympathise, HB, it's darn, darn hard.  

I don't think the link to the first chapter is an issue.


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## HareBrain (Jul 26, 2014)

Made an attempt to combine the ship and the diver. It has problems, especially as a thumbnail, but as a rough concept, does it show any promise?


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## Abernovo (Jul 26, 2014)

As a concept, I really like this one, HB. With a bit more (ethereal) life in the snakes, perhaps, it could really attract my attention. Seeing the person's face clearly too, making it apparent he's a free-diver, would be good. Obviously, you can't do that in a concept drawing but even like this it'a drawing me in. Best of luck.


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## HareBrain (Jul 26, 2014)

Thanks, Aber -- that's good to know.

The main difficulty I foresee with this one is that it's two pictures, and I'm not sure what to do with the join: as the most obvious example, where would the shaft of light begin? In the rough version, the lettering sort-of conceals the join, but I doubt that would work in finished art. A solid band behind the lettering, maybe, rather than trying to make it subtle?

(Edit, thinking "aloud": or it could be a single picture, like one of those photos where the lens is half in and half out of the water. In which case the shaft of light would have to due to a hole in the cloud or something, and I'd have to shadow the foreground sea except where the light hits it.)


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## Jo Zebedee (Jul 26, 2014)

Ooooh, CC was right - I am clever cos I like that one a lot. (You were designing it just for me, right? )


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## tinkerdan (Jul 26, 2014)

I like this one.


HareBrain said:


> Made an attempt to combine the ship and the diver. It has problems, especially as a thumbnail, but as a rough concept, does it show any promise?



Definitely has that Peter Benchley cover look.


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## HareBrain (Jul 26, 2014)

Thanks, guys



springs said:


> (You were designing it just for me, right? )



Well, I wouldn't have thought of it without your comment.




tinkerdan said:


> Definitely has that Peter Benchley cover look.



*starts daydreaming about Peter Benchley sales*


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## Teresa Edgerton (Jul 26, 2014)

One problem with adding the ship is that it takes up valuable space.  Where would your name go on that cover?  You could fit it into the space with the title, but then one or both would have to be smaller than would, perhaps, be desirable.

Also, I am not sure about how the artist would handle the perspective  so that it doesn't look like a toy boat.


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## Jo Zebedee (Jul 26, 2014)

I think a line of dark shading at the bottom would give room for the name. It's an image that could be beautifully simplified - the boat, the figure, the dark depths - and could be really striking as a cover.


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## alchemist (Jul 26, 2014)

Just to be mildly awkward, I think the latest cover is too busy, with three different elements competing for attention; ship, diver and artefact. 

I also worry about the perspective. I think you'd have to shelve any idea of it being one coherent image, but almost have it as a split-screen; ship on top, then some fuzziness to suggest it's a different scene, then diver and artefact below.


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## HareBrain (Jul 26, 2014)

alchemist said:


> I also worry about the perspective. I think you'd have to shelve any idea of it being one coherent image, but almost have it as a split-screen; ship on top, then some fuzziness to suggest it's a different scene, then diver and artefact below.



I think I agree with this. In fact I think it might need to be something stronger than fuzziness. The attached is my latest effort.

Does this work? And if the ship is separated off into its own image, does it justify its inclusion?


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## The Judge (Jul 27, 2014)

I'm in awe of your ship-drawing ability (well, all your drawing ability, really), but for me the ship isn't helping the cover, either alone or in conjunction with the diving scene.  There's nothing fantasy-like about it, and nothing that immediately suggests your world contains the equivalent of WWI-level technology which might otherwise help to give background to the novel.

I'm still thinking you need something less busy as a cover, and I've just had another idea.  A close-up of Orc's face complete with tattoos -- or Orc and Cass in profile looking at each other, perhaps -- possibly complete with masked Otter staring at the viewer, but with Seraphis and Chthonis twining around him/them.  And if the snakes, or a border around them, could create a mandorla/pointed oval shape all the better.


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## Mouse (Jul 27, 2014)

I'm with TJ, I don't like the boat either. I'd think it was a travel story or something. The diver/snakes/mask works for me.

Also, if you're not doing the cover yourself, I think you're putting way too much work into it. Every artist I've worked with has worked from a brief description. The lady who did my first cover did something completely different to what I actually asked for and it worked a hell of a lot better than anything I'd suggested (she actually had a design background), and the second guy I worked with did three different mock-ups based on my descriptions and let me choose the one I liked best.


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## Jo Zebedee (Jul 27, 2014)

I think Mouse has a good point there, actually. Decide on a few basics, let the artist do the designing. 

And sorry, TJ, but that idea sounds so complex I got a headache thinking about it, let alone seeing it.


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## HareBrain (Jul 27, 2014)

Yes, thanks all, after all this I think I'm going to get her to do something based on the diver one. And I now want it to look like it was done by Kay Nielsen.

Mouse, I'm glad I put the work in -- it's given me a good idea of what might work and what might not, and it was good to do some drawing again.


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