# Fantasy relies on mediaeval romanticism?



## Brian G Turner (Mar 25, 2013)

So I was reading low-rated reviews of Joe Abercrombie's books on Amazon.com, and noticed the same criticisms coming up.

Essentially, the readers who complained most wanted someone to root for, someone to associate with.

That got me thinking that perhaps a major attraction of fantasy in general is via mediaeval romanticism. 

In other words, chivalrous knights, clear villains, all in an olde worlde setting.

Which means, if you follow this argument, that anything that threatens this status quo is likely to fail, especially in any large marketplace - and I am thinking especially on the American audience here, which I understand dominates fantasy.

Of course, George R R Martin has set fire to the fantasy genre, but even still, beyond all the exaggerated violence, he is still holding onto this same ideals: we are held to root for the chivalrous heroes such as Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister and boo Cersei and Ser Gregor - and even seemingly fiendish characters such as Jaime Lannister are indeed true knights, misunderstood for political reasons.

In other words, the tropes are still there.

While there is some degree of subversion, I'm not sure there's any big challenge to existing established themes.

For example, while there are gay characters, none of them are POV protagonists. 

I would dare to suggest that Game of Thrones would be nowhere near as popular if Jon Snow, for example, was gay: I cannot imagine mainstream audiences, especially in America, wanting to put themselves into the body and mind of a homosexual man (or, considering the anti-gay marriage riots in France today, other potentially significant markets).

The question is, am I suffering from too much cynicism? 

Is a degree of romanticism a mainstream requirement for fantasy still? Is fantasy ready for gay leads?

(I know Richard Morgan has tried this in The Steel Remains and Cold Commands, but I personally felt that he completely failed to address the issue of sexuality, instead quickly getting bored with the character and externalising any conflict that might arise).

Anyway, just something I was thinking about this week.


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## Mouse (Mar 26, 2013)

I think this 'medieval' style epic fantasy is so different from everything else. I don't read a lot of it any more, I prefer the contemporary fantasies and the urban fantasies because there's a greater mix (for want of a better word) of characters. 

No offence to anybody (and actually, maybe this is why people like it?) but I find the medieval fantasies to all sort of blur into one after a while. They're all very similar. 

For me personally, I definitely want someone to root for. Again, maybe that's why I prefer the types of books I do?

For what it's worth, Renly was always my favourite character in ASoIaF, but in the books I never realised he was gay. (That kinda makes it sound like if I'd known, he wouldn't have been my fave, which is absolutely not what I mean.)

I'm reading Anne Lyle's Alchemist of Souls at the mo, and while it's not the type of fantasy you're talking about, Ned is, in my opinion, the best POV character. Does he count as a 'lead?' 

I hope fantasy's ready for a gay lead!


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## Brian G Turner (Mar 26, 2013)

Hm, perhaps I completely misunderstand conservatism on the issue in the US:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...US-Supreme-Court-to-rule-on-gay-marriage.html


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## AnyaKimlin (Mar 26, 2013)

I think most stories that deal with the past whether historical or fantasy romanticise the past.  

When I wrote Mayhem I really didn't realise how different it was to set it in another world in an era with similar technology to 2013.  The monarchy are dealing with the vestiges of the past in a world with computers, digital cameras etc    I was sure when I wrote it that I just didn't read enough fantasy. 

It is very, very difficult to find a book that isn't erotic romance aimed at straight women or LGBTQ (ie about being gay in someway) that has gay characters as the protagonists.


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## jastius (Mar 26, 2013)

Mercedes Lackey has a gay protagonist in her Magic series from Heralds of Valdimar.
But I think the problem is not the sexual orientation of a character in the overall view of a work, but that in any novel unless you are Harold Robbins or ilk there is not that much focus upon personal relationships of an intimate nature. In other words no one reads sci fi or fantasy for sexy bits in the mainstream anyways, and you can pretty much get away with having your character like girls boys or houseplants... it just doesn't come up with the action. So it becomes a question of those people who do switch over from other lines and expect this kind of thing to be in there. how much credence are we as writers being asked to place upon what are really specious demands of an at best side market need for such characters... i mean if it doesn't pan out you could always sell it to heavy metal magazine...


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## HareBrain (Mar 26, 2013)

I think a lot of people read fantasy for escapism and as literary comfort-food, so I don't think the tropes of chivalry and good'n'evil are likely to disappear. People find them comforting, stable etc.

As for gay leads, I think there are difficulties here, even discounting possible reader prejudice. I don't think a character is inherently more interesting for being gay (except to someone just coming out themselves, or someone who's lived under a rock for the past forty years). He would have to have other interesting facets too, but, being gay, his story would risk being dragged into a narrative about "being gay", which would be no more interesting than a story about "being straight". For him to work as a lead character, his sexuality would have to be largely irrelevant to the world around him (in that sub-plots revolving around his sexuality would have to be marginal at best). I think this is perfectly possible, even in a medieval-based fantasy -- but the trope that the medieval world was ruled by the Church and that the Church was always anti-gay tends to mean this kind of setting isn't often encountered. I think it's about time it was.


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## Abernovo (Mar 26, 2013)

I don't see why there shouldn't be a gay male lead/central/main character in a fantasy novel. 99.99% of everyday life would be exactly the same as for a straight male, straight female, or lesbian character.

To extend HB's idea, I could see it working in a story with a character who lives on the edges of society (perhaps a secluded healer or woodsman, for instance, who doesn't wish to advertise his sexuality in town) being drawn into a murder mystery or an adventure, thus giving the conflict of being 'different' from his fellows, and drawn, almost unwillingly, into urban society. That's just one possibility.

And, to echo Mouse's comment, I loved Anne Lyle's *Alchemist of Souls*. Presently waiting for *The Merchant of Dreams* to arrive - hopefully tomorrow (fidgety smiley).
As an aside, there is Icarus. It specialises in short speculative fiction featuring gay men - Small Payment market for any writers trying to sell stories. Perhaps a bit of a niche publication, but it's a start. Proves there's a market, if nothing else.


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## AnyaKimlin (Mar 26, 2013)

My fantasy has been no challenge to include gay characters.  I hope to use one as the main character further in the series.  (The final book does definitely have a gay love triangle/square type issue).  Thing is it appears to have been much less of an issue during medieval times - there is no reason why someone couldn't just have a partner they keep quiet.   

The cosy mystery (so I would guess a more urban/contemporary fantasy would have similar issues) did require me putting something in the water to achieve some of the right tension. (I solved the problem by having a topless bar that specifically hires gay bar tenders, one of my detectives was brought up by lesbian aunts and the other was the youngest of six boys raised by an in the closet gay father - kind of kept gay issues to the minimum).


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## allmywires (Mar 26, 2013)

I am trying (if I ever finish it) to write a fantasy story with 2 gay/bisexual characters. The difficult part is trying not to make it all about them being gay/bi and also not have a sense of 'leading the reader on', ie you're introduced to this character, he's sleeping with a woman, there's no mention of his bisexuality just because it's not relevant _and_ he doesn't want to reveal himself, and then it turns out he's had an affair with a man (one of the other characters) in the past. Now currently, and for the planned rest of the book, these two characters are in separate storylines and probably won't even meet up again until near the end of book 1, let alone have any moments together. So, god forbid I do finish my trilogy one day and it gets published, you would definitely have a small but vocal proportion of the readership going, 'I don't like this character any more because he's a f*g'. It's just the way the world is. 

So back to the point, I actually agree with Brian. People who read SFF on the whole, and especially die hard fans of the genre who read little to nothing else, probably do expect a certain formula to be followed, and are much more sensitive and vocal in their dislike to things changing. Which of course they are. And I think it's an excellent thing!


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## Brian G Turner (Mar 26, 2013)

HareBrain said:


> I don't think a character is inherently more interesting for being gay



Indeed - I'm currently struggling with the issue because there's a character I'm writing who should be gay. It's not particularly "in your face" but remains an important part of his personal arc and inner emotional conflict.

My worry is that if I write his struggle with his sexuality too openly too quickly, and are then published, I will lose a major part of my potential readership through personal prejudice, especially in the _huge _US market. Potential commercial suicide.

In which case, perhaps I should keep his "love from afar" as vague as possible. My trouble is that as a POV character, to hide this from the reader means to create distance from the reader, which defeats the point of being a POV protagonist in the first place. 

I don't think it's even a case of trying to find a balance between artistic integrity and commercial sensibilities. I think I'll just have to jump into one regardless.

The big kicker is that I feel like I will simply alienate _everybody _if I am open about his sexuality: the liberals will think it's shallow window dressing that never properly tries to address the full struggle of oppressed minority; and conservatives will simply object to any suggestion that they imagine themselves inside a homosexual's body. Centrists will simply reject any form of sexual inference because that makes fantasy cynical and grimdark.

I think there's some appetite for gay characters, but only very limited, and that audiences still expect them in supporting rather than leading roles. And much as I liked Anny Lyle's Alchemist of Souls, Mal is bisexual so I'm not sure it's the same issue. What she did well was intimacy and relationship, without pushing the sweaty physical part into the reader's face.

I suspect that's the template: a case of subtle and slowly, and hope for the best.


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## Mouse (Mar 26, 2013)

Mal's bi but Ned's gay. 

Anyway, I don't think about sexuality, I think about personality. I know I've said that a hundred times but people get so hung up on it! If your character's gay, then he's gay. Write about his personality, and if his sexuality affects his personality and he's struggling with it, then include it. Don't think about what your as-yet-non-existent readers may or may not like! 

I think, or I like to think, and hope that the homophobics are in the minority and most people generally won't give two hoots if he's gay or not. 

I've referred to myself on the forum before now as being 'fairly straight' but really, I'm probably pansexual. You try writing a pansexual character. That's when you'll get problems.


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## Brian G Turner (Mar 26, 2013)

Mouse said:


> I think about personality



Agreed, I think that is the best focus. I just feel the issue of non-normative sexuality a very delicate one to handle successfully.


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## Mouse (Mar 26, 2013)

Just go for it, Brian. You've obviously put a lot of thought into it, I reckon you'll do ok.


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## Brian G Turner (Mar 26, 2013)

Mouse said:


> Just go for it, Brian. You've obviously put a lot of thought into it, I reckon you'll do ok.



Cheers, I don't think I have much choice - thanks for the support anyway. 

(I'm sure I'm supposed to worry about actually getting published first!)


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## AnyaKimlin (Mar 26, 2013)

The world is changing - just write a person.   When I was a teen and my best friend came out this discussion wouldn't even be happening.  

Like Mouse said most readers won't care.  In fantasy those that do will probably have as much of an issue with the magic.

Fact is gay men tend to be the people with a large disposable income so of course there is a market which is why I think it is ridiculous that publishers don't tap it especially during a recession.   There is a reason musicians do because most of my gay friends have a large music collection complete with limited editions CDs, vinyls, tapes etc.  Who do you think pays £600 a ticket for Barbara Streisand?


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## HoopyFrood (Mar 26, 2013)

Mouse said:


> I've referred to myself on the forum before now as being 'fairly straight' but really, I'm probably pansexual. You try writing a pansexual character. That's when you'll get problems.



Both these descriptors work well for me, too 

I'd certainly like to see more sexualities and gender identities used in books. No matter how I write my characters, one or two of them end up being gay or bisexual -- it's just a feeling I get even though I don't really often involve relationships in my stuff. But as already mentioned, it's not going to affect much of the plot really. I think, like with some people writing and trying so hard to create women characters -- the more effort you put in, the more of an issue it becomes. As Mouse says, personality is definitely more interesting. 

Relationships of all kinds are interesting stuff. I'm writing a script that focuses almost entirely on two women, because I realised there are plenty of bromances in films but you rarely ever see two women being thrown together and working through tough situations together. I recently changed it so that one is about ten years older than the other and it's just created an awesome dynamic.


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## allmywires (Mar 26, 2013)

HoopyFrood said:


> . I'm writing a script that focuses almost entirely on two women, because I realised there are plenty of bromances in films but you rarely ever see two women being thrown together and working through tough situations together.



Obviously this is completely off-topic but I noticed this too and is so sadly true! I have plans for a female friendship but it's got derailed slightly in favour of plot.


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## HareBrain (Mar 26, 2013)

I said:


> Indeed - I'm currently struggling with the issue because there's a character I'm writing who should be gay. It's not particularly "in your face" but remains an important part of his personal arc and inner emotional conflict.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...



I think that's a good summary of the difficulties. But I think you'll avoid alienating the liberals if you don't look like you're trying to write about being gay as such, or trying to say something about it (which some ghetto-ists would probably see as our old friend cultural appropriation).

I think there's a danger in writing a gay character these days as though one were introducing the reader to it. The angst-ridden "coming out" story has been done to death over the last few decades, and to my mind anyone wanting to write about torment over sexuality had better do something different with it. But as Mouse says, focusing on the character as an individual rather than a "type" should help. Does he need to be tormented by his sexuality at all? Could he not be gay but tormented by something else, such as differences in class between himself and the object of his affection?

As for turning readers off, I think the more matter-of-fact his narrative is about his sexuality, the less of an issue he has with it himself, the less excuse you give readers to be put off. What you need to do is make the story up to that point so compelling that even if they are slightly turned off, they can't put it down. Easy!


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## Darth Angelus (Mar 26, 2013)

Those are a few questions about audience reactions you raise there. Here is what I think.

First of all, wanting someone to root for is not really weird at all, as far as I can see, since a lot of drama boils down to just that. If we don't particularly care about any character, chances are we don't care what happens to them, either. Even worse, the reader/audience may develop an indifferent attitude to the outcome of the conflicts in the story, if no party is perceived as "better" to any meaningful extent.
This potential loss of drama is something the author may have to compensate for in other ways. Not having read Joe Abercrombie's series, I can't say whether I think he succeeds this or not. However, looking at the summary of the ratings on Amazon, he seems to have overall good ratings, for an average of over 4 stars, so he can't really have failed that bad. If anything, I think that those ratings indicate that you can get an overall positive response, even while using a somewhat unconventional recipe for your script.

As for George R R Martin, I think that (at the very least) he puts a twist on those chivalry tropes. A lot of the knights in ASoIaF are not as noble or chivalrous as you would expect. Jaime may not be as bad as some of the other Lannisters (save Tyrion, of course), but I just don't see Gawain pushing a young child out the window, either.
Then again, I may be misunderstanding your point here.

As gay relationships, I don't know what to say, really. Very few fictional works of any genre seem to portray same sex relationships. The only one I can think of straight away is Willow's relationships (after Oz) in _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ (but I have seen far from everything). It is hard to say why that is. Maybe it is fear of backlash from prejudiced readership, true, but there could be a couple of other explanations, as well.
Firstly, it could be sheer demographics. Homo- and bisexual people are by far fewer in number compared to heterosexual ditto. Even though I am all against discrimination against minorities, I am not referring to any conscious decision to do so here. However, it is usually just a safer bet to appeal to a greater number of people as best you can. Even (straight) people who are not homophobic may not find themselves as involved in a fictional relationship they could not see themselves in. This means that unless the author is consciously trying to make a political statement otherwise, they will tend to fall back on the norm. This is will apply to any kind of minority, really, but it does not boil down to prejudice.
Secondly, the author may not feel they can portray a gay relationship authentically, at least not without major research, and unless it is pivotal to the plot (and in general, it won't be) or a political statement is intended, they will probably fall back on what has been tried.

This is what I think. Maybe I am a bit naive here. Prejudice in any form can be hard to notice, because it is usually in the motives for actions or decisions, rather than in the actions or decisions themselves, and the true motives of others are hard to unveil. A lot of prejudicial treatment of both people and topics will never get confronted, simply because it cannot be proven that an action (or even attitude) that was taken against someone or something, was done so for the wrong reasons. That is a major problem, as I see it.


I forgot Renly Baratheon is gay. However, it is just very briefly touched upon (no pun intended).


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## Teresa Edgerton (Mar 26, 2013)

Putting aside the sexuality question for a moment, I don't think what you are talking about is medieval romanticism, because it applies pretty much across the board to all genres.  Some readers, _especially_ in epic fantasy these days, are fascinated by anti-heroes and protagonists who operate in a morally grey area (on a good day), but for most readers, not just readers of speculative fiction, I think it comes down to the kind of person they would like to spend hours or days of their time with.

Call it escapism, but after spending most of the day dealing with mean people, boring people, stupid people, why pick up a book and experience the same sort of thing all over again? A lot of us read to spend some time with people we might actually want to _know_.

But to return to the subject of gay characters, there are a lot of female readers who _love_ reading about relationships between attractive gay men.  Many are indifferent, and of course you run the risk of alienating some of your male readers.  But if he's not the main character (and, if you are worrying about the character I think you are worrying about, he isn't) and you handle the subject truthfully* and with a modicum of sensitivity, you might also broaden your potential audience. 

_______

*One thing that we, as writers, often forget about is that research doesn't only involve books or talking to people who have some sort of academic or professional background.(Or, sadly, asking random strangers on the internet.) We can, in effect, "interview" our friends and families, sit down and have a long and serious conversation asking about the things they think and feel and how they would react to certain situations.  With some male writers it seems like they've never met an actual woman in their entire lives. (I think there was even a thread here to that effect a while back, regarding a certain popular writer.) Probably male readers wonder what's up with female writers and the men they write about.  But unless we live in monasteries, we're surrounded every day by people of the opposite sex.  Maybe we take them so much for granted that it never occurs to us that we might use them as resources when we are writing.

And these days, how many of us don't have at least a couple of friends, family members, or acquaintances who are openly gay?  So why guess?  Why limit ourselves to discussions with our heterosexual friends who are speculating, too?


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## jastius (Mar 26, 2013)

I think it is our habit of putting labels upon things that get us hung up in what the details are. Through out known history there have been many associations of an ambiguous nature with regard to sexuality. Even among the knights of Camelot reputedly. I think that overall the world is shifting into a place where we can be more honest with certain hard facts that have been erased through sheer prejudice.  To this end I believe people as a whole are becoming more accepting. 
perhaps your work might not be accepted by american bible belt fundamentalists, but remember brian, before they can burn your book, they must buy it.
As for the rest of it unless the protagonist is on his honeymoon or something, there are never that many really personal bits to get into a frenzy about when the main focus is in another direction. 
people tend to rewrite and edit as they read anyways. If I really find the name of a character or a personal habit grating I will put on my inner editor and switch the offending phrase to something I like better. If you let different people read your work you will find that most of them have a very different idea of what you wrote.
The major problem I find is getting the 'voice ' of the character correct and true. walking in someone else's moccasins for a mile is a difficult exercise. sometimes if i am having great difficulty with the correct tone i do a 'fill in the blank' type thing where i write it from my perspective and then correct the phrasing to reflect the character. 
it is indeed a brave new world of writing awaiting us.


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## bluenimbus (Mar 26, 2013)

there are some books that stray from the now standard chivalric form of fantasy that seems to be the norm. consider Glenda Larke's mirage makers series, (the first book was the best) the trilogy is based on modern day society but put sometime in the past, the issues are relevant today but the backdrop is of the more traditional type of fantasy, an interesting mix.

as for gay point of view characters, two examples come to mind, Trudi Canavan's Black Magician Trilogy and Robbin Hobb's Rain Wild Chronicles. 
Robbin Hobb's world building is also very unique and i suggest you try her Liveship traders Trilogy if you are unfamiliar with her works


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## allmywires (Mar 26, 2013)

Teresa Edgerton said:


> But to return to the subject of gay characters, there are a lot of female readers who _love_ reading about relationships between attractive gay men.  Many are indifferent, and of course you run the risk of alienating some of your male readers.



it's funny because almost all of the men I've mentioned this too find it completely bizarre (even though they all, quite openly, enjoy the idea of two ladies going at it). They just don't understand that women's brains might work the same way as theirs: ie you take out the same sex part, which you don't find attractive, and double the opposite sex part, what's not to like? (I know I'm not alone here, not even on this board)



jastius said:


> people tend to rewrite and edit as they read anyways. If I really find the name of a character or a personal habit grating I will put on my inner editor and switch the offending phrase to something I like better.



I am a serial offender here. Don't believe the character has a certain trait? Ret-con and ignore all future references


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## HareBrain (Mar 26, 2013)

allmywires said:


> it's funny because almost all of the men I've mentioned this too find it completely bizarre (even though they all, quite openly, enjoy the idea of two ladies going at it). They just don't understand that women's brains might work the same way as theirs: ie you take out the same sex part, which you don't find attractive, and double the opposite sex part, what's not to like?



I haven't done any proper research, but I'm willing to bet that most of the men who "enjoy the idea of two ladies going at it" have in the backs of their minds that those ladies aren't true lesbians, but women who are experimenting, or are bisexual -- in other words, the potential for desire/need for a man is still there to some extent. The thought that those women might have no sexual interest in men whatsoever, I believe, would dull the enjoyment quite quickly.

I suspect that with women reading about gay men it might be different.



> (I know I'm not alone here, not even on this board)



Most redundant sentence ever ...


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## allmywires (Mar 26, 2013)

HB, I have a feeling that deep contemplation of said ladies' sexual orientation is not at the forefront of their minds at that point  but yes, you raise a good point.


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## AnyaKimlin (Mar 26, 2013)

AMW is right - Gay erotic fiction is a fairly big market but it is written mostly for women by women.  (I know some really wonderful writers).

However, I exchanged a beta read with a man early on in my writing journey who didn't like fantasy and gay men made him uncomfortable.  This was before I started to realise some people were genre specific in what they worked with and that some straight men don't like reading about gay men.  He disturbed himself by rooting for two alien gay men   (Well technically one of them isn't gay he's a fire type and they just like sex).


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## Mouse (Mar 26, 2013)

HoopyFrood said:


> Both these descriptors work well for me, too



Yay!



> I'd certainly like to see more sexualities and gender identities used in books.



Seconded.


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