# Mass Effect 2



## Cayal

Already generating massive reviews (early average of 97 on metacritic) Mass Effect 2 promises to deliver an exceptional RPG experience and top the previously awesome (IMO) Mass Effect.

Any one else planning on getting this on 360 or PC? It is released this week for most places.

Personally I loved the first and I will definitely be getting the second.


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## Moontravler

I never expected the game to be released in time for a change, so I STILL have not finished ME1 (I'm a PC gamer and the PC port was released a long time after the console ed's were released) which I was planning to do before ME2 so I could import my character.

I somehow lost steam with the first game, but by most reports I've seen so far, the second game is better than the first, so maybe I should push Div2 aside for a bit and quickly finish ME1.

ME1 became a lot cheaper after a while, so I was plannning to wait for that to happen with ME2, but since the reviews are so good, I'm starting to feel torn about this...


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## Winters_Sorrow

It's on my list of games to buy but I have plenty I haven't finished yet so I'll hold off for a bit. Looks very good though and I like the idea of your character choices from ME1 filtering down into ME2 (allegedly).


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## Cayal

It was confirmed you can use your character from ME1 or you can start afresh.


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## Moontravler

Yes, but even though one can start afresh, I think one would lose out a bit perhaps, in the sense of continuity and of knowing exactly where the plot is going/coming from. 
Since I also have plenty yet to finish, (like Batman Arkham As., King Arthur, Divinity 2, Call of Juarez BIB, Darkfall 3 Lost Souls, Diabolique, King's Bounty, some Fallout 3 DLC, etc.) I might survive waiting it out a bit as well.

You can come and make us envious, Cayal.


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## Somni

I've ordered it.  It sounds like it will be as good or better than ME1 and I look forward to seeing how they work the backstory from 1 into 2, particularly as you could kill several of  the team characters who are in ME2.  I hope that there is more about the Migrant Fleet.


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## Cayal

Moontravler said:


> Yes, but even though one can start afresh, I think one would lose out a bit perhaps, in the sense of continuity and of knowing exactly where the plot is going/coming from.
> Since I also have plenty yet to finish, (like Batman Arkham As., King Arthur, Divinity 2, Call of Juarez BIB, Darkfall 3 Lost Souls, Diabolique, King's Bounty, some Fallout 3 DLC, etc.) I might survive waiting it out a bit as well.
> 
> You can come and make us envious, Cayal.



I believe I read they do a bit of a 'Last time on Mass Effect...' thing where it summarises the previous game.

I don't know if I will get it release day, I have Dragon Age to complete first.


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## dustinzgirl

Cayal said:


> It was confirmed you can use your character from ME1 or you can start afresh.



I can't because my hubby dropped the 360 drive and now it doesn't work.

Sigh.

But yes, I am playing this one ASAP


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## Rahl Windsong

The commercials on TV are driving me insane! I want so much to get this game but I can't afford it right now! And every single time I see one of them damn commercials it makes me want to go buy it anyway, even though if I do it would make me broke! lol


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## dustinzgirl

I just finished ME2, Rahl--wait until ME3 comes out and buy them both at the same time cuz it left me with a big cliffhanger. 

Stupid writers. 

Now I don't think I'll be able to wait for ME3. I think I'm just going to go rob the studio!

PS: I am watching the credits right now. Martin Sheen played the Illusive Man and Seth Green plays Joker! I did not know that!


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## Cayal

I'm in the same boat Rahl, I can't wait to get my hands on it but I have so much to play I am waiting...


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## Rahl Windsong

dustinzgirl said:


> I just finished ME2, Rahl--wait until ME3 comes out and buy them both at the same time cuz it left me with a big cliffhanger.
> 
> Stupid writers.
> 
> Now I don't think I'll be able to wait for ME3. I think I'm just going to go rob the studio!
> 
> PS: I am watching the credits right now. Martin Sheen played the Illusive Man and Seth Green plays Joker! I did not know that!


 

Yes I have been following this game since I played ME1 and I already knew about the actors playing some of the roles, like Martin Sheen. I do believe the guy who plays Saul Tigh in Battlestar Galactica, Michael Hogan, is also in there somewhere along with some others from the Battlestar Galactica series. Voice acting should be really good but then again Bioware games always have great voice overs.


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## dustinzgirl

I don't really pay attention ever, I just like to blow stuff up.


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## poisonoustea

I think the ME series has taken the first step in merging movies, books and games. I really, really hope the gaming industry will keep moving in this direction... and progressively abandon the "kill everything that moves" part, which I find rather boring to be honest.


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## Rodders

I can see ME3 becoming one of those online MMORPG games. That way they get to bleed more money out of us each month.


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## Boaz

poisonoustea said:


> I think the ME series has taken the first step in merging movies, books and games. I really, really hope the gaming industry will keep moving in this direction... and progressively abandon the "kill everything that moves" part, which I find rather boring to be honest.


Bioware hooked me with the twist in the KOTOR story, but I was wary of the ME games because the only shooter I'd ever played was _Ghost Recon_.  It took me quite a while to get used targeting on the XBox and I was glad that ME and ME2 were not totally games to "kill everything that moves", as poisonousteas said. 

There were some great aspects to ME and ME2.  I very much liked actually hearing Shepherd's voice during conversations... Revan's voice was absent from KOTOR and the Grey Warden's was very conspicuously absent from _Dragon Age_.  I found the Krogan amusing, the Asari interesting, the Turians annoying, the Quarians enigmatic, and I was thrilled that I was not forced to take on any Salarians or Volus in the first game.  Though, I must admit, I highly enjoyed the Salarian in the second game... I just wish I could have convinced him to develop a Genophage for the Volus.

I found the minigame of Simon highly annoying.  I saved before each minigame and found that I had more than enough money very quickly.  I was thrilled they changed out Simon for Memory and a reverse version of the very first handheld electronic game, Mattel Auto Race. (I had Mattel Classic Football and my brother had Mattel Auto Race... and we played them until my father took them away because he could not stand the sounds anymore.)  Just when I got the hang of handling the Mako, they took it out of ME2.  Natch.

ME2 says you can port your original Shepherd over.  This is not strictly correct.  My Shepherd had a horrific scar.  You remember the very first one of the scar collection... He was a War Hero after all.  Anyway, that scar did not port... and for me, that was my Shepherd's most attractive feature to Ashley.  Yes, I know Shepherd had more surgery than Steve Austin, but the scar was gone even before the Normandy.

The game did not have a "Luke, I am your father moment" nor a "Revan, I was your apprentice" moment, but the story still carried the game... and not the killing.  "Luke, I am your father" was a big deal to me because I was only a kid and the internet did not exist.

Liara was good to go from her second conversation... I enjoyed cooling her engines.  But I had a problem with her story... SPOILER ALERT... A certain someone was dead by the time Shepherd met Liara and Liara never said a thing about it... and that was weird.

Kaiden, we hardly knew ye.

Wrex.... It was a very near thing.  But the character's name is Shepherd and he took care of his flock.

Garrus was the character with whom Shepherd can indulge in a bit of extra civil justice.  Okay, I'll just call them vigilantes.

Tali the duck girl.  Grow up already.  I loved her bumbling excuses when I shut her down in ME2.  But I think she should have gone ballistic when Legion joined the crew and not when he downloaded her fleet's schematics.  And I blew the story there... I should not have talked her down... I should have encouraged her... but I was curious as to how Legion would play out.

Jack.  What to say about Jack?  I felt sorry for her.  I wanted to help her.  She'd only been used and abused her entire life and I wanted Shepherd to give her a chance to be a hero and find redemption.  But somehow the conversation choice, "Jack, let's talk about us." was completely sexual in nature and destroyed my friendship with her.  The last I saw of Jack, she was on her way to becoming Sarah Kerrigan's twin sister.

Jacob.  I was so glad his conversations never went weird like Dragon Age's did with Zevran.  Forget the Justicar, forget Thane, forget Jack, and even lovely Miranda, I knew I wanted Jacob at the last battle from the get go.  After all of Miranda's baggage, Jack's crap, Solus' experiments, and Ashley's anger, Shepherd needed a fighter to take down the giant terminator.  Admittedly, I was shocked that Jacob never made any excuses for his father.

At which point I must say that the writers for ME and ME2 must have serious issues with either their fathers or their children.  Thane and Samara have problems with their children while Solus and Garrus both have problems with their former assistants, i.e. surrogate children.  Though I never found if Kaiden had a problem with anyone, he is voiced by Raphel Sbarge who also voiced Carth Onassi in KOTOR... Carth had major problems with his son.  Liara, Ash, Jacob, Tali, Miranda, Jacob and Grunt all have issues with one parent or another.  And Jack's problem is that she never had a father.

Thane is an interesting character.  Not very plausible, but interesting.  I guess the writers get away with it by saying he is an alien with alien cultural mores.

Samara. A holy warrior without morals... and definitely the largest breasted Asari in the galaxy.

Morinth.  I went back and just replayed the scene at Morinth's... that's the closest to "Luke, I am your father" that I found in the story.

Grunt was the character after Jacob that I knew I had to have for the final battle.  I liked that he had a smaller hump and different head plates than Wrex.  Both he and Wrex convinced me that the Genohage was the greatest medical discovery.... ever.  Which leads me to...

Mordin Solus.  I loved this guy.  If you did not discover his singing talents, you must either replay the game or click on this youtube link.  If you never saw The Pirates of Penzance, then search some more on youtube something along the lines of modern major general.

I've spoken to two other people who've played ME and ME2 and I think I am in the minority of people who found that the Genophage was the humane solution to the Krogan problem.  I loved that Solus was involved in secretly re-incubating the Krogan with and improved Genophage.

Legion.  Um... he and the whole Geth civil split were major developments.  I should have let Tali...

Ashley. Hmmmm.  I, not Shepherd, was irate at her hostility in ME2.  How could she do this?  That was good story telling.

Miranda.  On looks, she wins hands down.  But she's soooo repressed.  

But perhaps the best part of the story was doing the one mission with Joker.  Excellent.  Guiding the cripple through the apocalypse was great fun.

There were a few bugs.  I've seen at leasts four places where Shepherd can wander right off the floor and up into the air.  That was highly annoying.  Save often.  Also, my first final fight in ME2 bugged out by not allowing me to target, hit, damage, or destroy the final tube.  I emptied every weapon into it, twice, to no avail after downing the first three in quick succession.  On the second play through, which I had to do all the way from landing on the Collector Base, I defeated the final boss... but it was compounded by trying to make the story come out the same. (If you've finished, you'll know what I mean.)

I think a male Shepherd can romance... SPOILER ALERT... Liara, Ash, Jack, Miranda, Samara, Tali, Morinth, and Kelly.  While this adds to the story, I'd like to see other romances in a story like this.  What about Captain Anderson and the Consort?  Or Samara and Thane?  Joker and Kelly?  Chief Navigator Pressly and Doctor Chakwas?  Garrus and Liara?  What if Jacob and Miranda were still a couple when Shepherd met them?  I'd love to see that love triangle play out.  

The tension between the Alliance military and the rest of Citadel Space gets personified nicely between Shepherd and the Council... both pre and post Sovereign.

One other nagging issue in ME2, I ended up with a lot more resources than I ever needed.  I started by depleting every planet, but found I could have just stopped at moderate on most planets.

Also, just for fun, launch some probes into the Alliance home planets... It's childish, but humorous.


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## Cayal

You can probe Uranus.


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## devilsgrin

> Also, just for fun, launch some probes into the Alliance home planets... It's childish, but humorous.



yes, hilarious. mostly because of how unexpected EDI's comment is. and how unlike most of the ME2 humour it is. 

I agree with your take on Thane too. Not plausible, but interesting... 

But Jacob... talk about the most boring squadmate in the entire game... sometimes i don't even do his mission... and secretly hope he doesn't survive Hold the Line (tho since i loyal up all the others, he does, but still theres a vague chance he could die)

Ashley though... I dunno... considering how many playthroughs i've completed of ME and ME2... i think Ash survived Virmire only ONCE for story's sake only... i can't stand bigots. and as deep as you can go with her, even her realisation that aliens aren't that bad is bigotted. 

Question Boaz... how did your squad fare whilst you were battling the "giant terminator" without two of the strongest Hold The Line rated squadies?


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## Boaz

dg, I guess that I did not state that I play these games in Casual mode. Plus I put the target assist as high as it will go and I put the squad power use to full auto. I fully admit that most people would call that "Care Bear" mode. But to me it's about following a story, not about quickfingerbuttonmashing. I want Shepherd to be the hero. I don't want to succeed at ME only by having six years of prior XBox experience.

For example, the Benezia fight in ME was the toughest, in my opinion. Even on the friendliest and easiest settings, it took me eight or nine times to beat her. (Once again, I admit that I'm slow and inexperienced with console shooters.) My issue is that I don't remember Shepherd being the hero of Noveria. My memory is of Shepherd getting gunned down repeatedly by Asari Commandos. Eight deaths versus one win... ouch.

How many boss fails can be erased by one success? In my case, it's only about two. Three to four can sour the believability of the story for me. And double digit deaths will effectively end the story for me.

I don't find any thrill in knowing the power combos. I do not enjoy knowing that the key to winning the fight is memorize the proper sequence... A, A, A, A, X, Y, B, A, X, X, X, LT, X, RB, Y, A, AXRTLTAXBYAAAAABAAA... I really don't like pausing the combat every three seconds to fire off my squad's powers. If I must pause, then I'll do so to heal or switch guns. Am I playing Shepherd? Or am I playing God?

If I'm playing Shepherd, then I control which guns Shepherd uses and when he uses his abilities. If I'm playing Shepherd, then Jack and Jacob should select when to use their powers. I don't like the God mode. I like to see the story unfold. I like to talk to the TV after fights and say, "Miranda, thanks for the help" or "Jacob, where were you? Thanks for nothing."

I think this stems from my background with miniature wargaming. Warhammer is the most popular game of this type. Warhammer has a major problem... as a player I control all levels of play... Commander in Chief, Brigade Leader, Company Commander, Squad Leader, and Unit Champion. In no way does this accurately reflect the overall structure of how decisions are made upon the battlefield. Should the CinC decide when the infiltrated unit attacks the flank? Should a Unit Champion decide upon which units make up the army? Should a Sergeant decide when the entire army advances? No... to all of the questions. But since the player is all of the above characters, one person is effectively personally controlling every aspect of the army. To avoid this, one must have a system that confines the player to a specific role as General or Private... or one must have self-control to more accurately represent command structure.

If I really was Shepherd, I could not force Jacob to throw people through the air. I could ask him and I could hope he'd throw people like skeet for me to shoot, but I could not force him. ME allows me to force him or to hope... and I choose to hope.

dg, my aplogies to take so long to get to the point of this post...



devilsgrin said:


> Question Boaz... how did your squad fare whilst you were battling the "giant terminator" without two of the strongest Hold The Line rated squadies?


Is there a way to check ratings "in game" or are they rated online? I don't want to know anything "out of game" regarding damage, armor, or ratings of my squad. That information will probably change my story dramatically.

My Shepherd is a Spacer/War Hero/Soldier. So going in to the biggest fight, he wants teammates with the heaviest armor, biggest guns, and highest morale. I might have chosen Samara, but I needed her to escort the crew back to the Normandy... I figured if anyone could solo that, it'd be Samara.

SPOILER ALERT for ME2.

Other considerations for the "giant terminator"...

Mission Loyalty. I did all the quests, so all the squad was loyal to Shepherd. But I suspected that conditions might change and their loyalty might be put to the test. I suspected both Miranda, Jacob, and Mordin might assign a substantial monetary/research value to the Collector Base. Since I liked Mordin and Shepherd romanced Miranda, I did not want to have to shoot them. I'd feel bad about shooting a good soldier, but the bottom line is that Jacob was more expendable. Neither Jack nor Legion made it to the final fight... but I'd have mistrusted them completely with mission success on the line.

The Future. I wondered if the final fight might conclude with the destruction of the Collector Base and the deaths of Shepherd and his two squadmates. If so, I wanted Thane to see his son, Samara to find peace, Miranda to see her sister, Mordin to continue to keep the Krogan in line, Tali to lead the Quarians, and for Garrus to let the Turians know that humanity can be trusted. As for Jacob, you called him "the most boring squadmate in the entire game" and I cannot disagree, but he's also an altruist and so I felt I could sacrifice him. And as for Grunt, he's got the possibility to lead the Krogan as a powerful warlord... so he was definitely expendable.

As for Ashley... my take was that the harrowing experiences of ME threw Shepherd and Ash together despite a few incompatibilities. First, Ash is bigoted. That's undisputable. But consider these aliens... The Rachni tried to exterminate all life in the galaxy. The Krogan betrayed their allies and tried to at least enslave the galaxy, if not kill everyone. Every Batarian in the game is a slaver. The Volus are twice as predjudiced as any human could ever be. The Turians accuse incessantly. The Collectors are controlled by the Reapers who are bent upon eradicating all life. And the Asari can use mind control. 

Bringing out moral questions is what makes for a great story. Finding that balance between bigotry and blindness is difficult... Jesus told his followers of this very quandary, "Be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."

The second incompatibility is that Shepherd is her commanding officer. In the military, that is a cardinal sin. Really, Shepherd is committing career suicide if he romances Ashley.

Besides killing things and getting vengeance upon Saren, what do Ashley and Shepherd have in common? Well, my Shepherd did like her Tennyson quotes.

And so, Ashley's hostility in ME2 launched Shepherd into the... uh... err... the ummm..... the arms... yeah that's it, the arms of Miranda.

Which leads to all the real difficulties of romance in ME. Ash: bigoted, junior officer. Liara: alien, mind control. Miranda: self-centered, other loyalties, fake body. Samara: big age difference, alien sense of justice, mind control. Tali: hero worship, biologically incompatible, underage? Jack: sexually abused, mentally abused, never had any positive role models, sociopath, an emotional wreck. Kelly: junior officer, hero worship, gossip?

It's a minefield.

I'd love to know what you guys thought of the morality of the Genophage. I'd also like to know what you did with the Rachni Queen and what you decided on Virmire.


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## Sephiroth

Because I played ME2 on PS3 (and because I didn't buy it new and get the chance to play through the 'Genesis' comic that lets PS3 players make the most important choices from the first game), the Rachni Queen is dead in my game, and so is Urdnot Wrex.  I feel like I would have allowed both to live, had I been able to choose.  

As for the genophage, I find it hard to adopt an absolute moral position; it depends on whose perspective I adopt, and even from a human point of view, I can argue both for and against it.  During Mordin's loyalty mission in ME2, I advised him to keep the data Maelon had accrued toward developing a cure, my primary reason being that it it seemed Mordin himself regretted his part in the genophage and desired the opportunity to right what he saw as a wrong.  Perhaps this suggests that my own position is closer to his than to a belief that the genophage was _truly_ right.  I have sympathy for the Krogan (except when they're charging at me, formidable opponents as they are). 

In the end, I'm not sure I can justify their extinction in order to assuage the other races' fear of a new Krogan War.  It was the Citadel Council that precipitated the Krogan population surge in the aftermath of the Rachni Wars, after all, and although they were not responsible for the Krogan aggression, nor do I think the Krogan were entirely culpable.  Did they anticipate the population explosion following their settlement of other worlds gifted to them, and did they know how their society would respond?  Even if they did, it seems excessive that they be damned to extinction because of their innate belligerence and they way it informed their quest to secure space for further expansion.  In the end, I think the genophage was _necessary_ but not _right_.  I hold that the Krogan are not beyond redemption, and that they should be afforded the opportunity to prove they can coexist with the other races, rather than be doomed to extinction for acting according to their nature in circumstances that spiralled beyond their control.    

Perhaps a complete reversal of the genophage would be a step too far, but a 'cure' that allows them at least to reach replacement-level fertility seems just to me.   

==================================================

At any rate, I find your comments regarding how you play the game fascinating, Boaz.  In many ways you're at the opposite end of the spectrum from me, yet we both get what we want out of the experience.  I played ME2 (and will play ME3 when it comes out) on Insanity mode.  I enjoy the challenge of the highest difficulty setting -- the knowledge that a few bullets from any enemy might kill me and the necessity of using the environment to its utmost and fighting tactically.  I get a huge adrenaline rush during those desperate moments when it seems I am about to be overwhelmed, and a great sense of satisfaction after emptying my last clip into Harbinger just as he's about to 'tear me apart', only to see him _finally_ die.  As an avid gamer, I enjoy FPS games as well as RPGs, and am only too happy to draw on my years of Playstation (in my case) experience.  

But what you said made me think about the role I am playing in these 'role-playing' games.  You seem to have a very pure approach to this.  You are playing the role of Shepard, and anything that makes you feel you have stepped outside of this role breaks the immersion for you.  

So what am I doing?  I suppose I'm doing two things simultaneously.  Part of me is very consciously playing as myself against the video game.  There's a metafictional aspect to the way I approach it, undoubtedly.  But am I also playing the story more than the character?  It's not that I don't place myself in Shepard's boots when I'm playing, but I _am_ happy to take as full control of other squad members as I am given.  Maybe I'm just playing as Team Protagonist?  On the other hand, maybe I see using squad powers as a shorthand for their following commands that Shepard has given (he is their commander, after all, and his job in battle is, well, to command)?  To be honest, I hadn't really attempted to deconstruct it until now, but it's interesting.  

My background in gaming is as a lifelong player of video games of many different genres and platforms, and, for me, once I've learned a game's controls, it becomes a reflex thing, something I don't have to think about.  The 'L2' button is not the 'L2' button: it's the trigger of my gun.  I'm completely immersed.  For me, what lessens the believability is if I am able to waltz through an area without staying in cover or thinking carefully about how to proceed, simply blowing each of my enemies away with a few well-placed shots.  And, somehow, dying doesn't matter to me.  Those deaths didn't happen.  They're alternate futures, things that might have been had the waveform collapsed in a different way, but they're not part of my experience.  They vanish and are forgotten.  Only what went before and what comes after remains.  In this way, I only remember Shepard being the hero, even if it took him twenty times to get it right.  

Ultimately, we both maintain immersion and follow the story in a way that affords us maximum enjoyment, and yet our philosophies could hardly be more different.  Which is cool.


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## devilsgrin

> Is there a way to check ratings "in game" or are they rated online? I don't want to know anything "out of game" regarding damage, armor, or ratings of my squad. That information will probably change my story dramatically.



theres probably somewhere online where you can check the "Hold-the-Line" rating. 
Each of the* specific* (ie: squad leader x 2, biotic field, into the shafts) tasks you assign a team member during the suicide mission has a success/fail rating depending on loyalty and appropriateness for that task. Meaning regardless who... disloyal = guaranteed failure. loyal = success, but only if the appropriate squadie does it. there are two or three "correct" options for each task.

I completely agree with you on playing the game solely for story purposes. I usually also play on casual... tho sometimes i'll mix it up with a normal difficulty rating - but never more than that (its turns it into too much of an actual shooter game and i tend to despise shooters). 

Ash's stance on aliens is pretty basic, and seemed to me to have nothing to do with the Krogan Wars, The Rachni Wars or the Quarian-Geth war. These issues could not have impacted humanity at all.. since the Quarian/Geth thing is 300 years past, and the Krogan Wars were almost 1500 years past. Certainly she would use those fact to support her bigotry. Its about a) fear and hatred of the Turians because of their attack on that human colony (Shianxi? sp?). and b) a major inferiority complex in regards to both the Turian Military (being vastly superior to the Alliance's), and Asari brilliance at everything (and the lust they generate in human men in particular).

I didn't think that Biotics was related to telepathy... certainly telekinesis... Morinth can sort of do it i suppose... but Ardat-Yakshi are an exception rather than the rule... (sorry any chance to defend Samara from even imagined slights i'll take. I absolutely love Samara... BEST...INTRO...EVER!!! i mean she fracking FLIES!, then snaps necks with her mega-high-heeled-boots!!!)

The Genophane. Completely PRO-Genophage. The Krogan, as we learn from Wrex, then witness first hand on Tuchanka... cannot be trusted to manage their own population or cultural drive towards violence. Its not even a morally grey issue. the survival of the galaxy vs the population explosion of one annihilistic self-destructive species? BioWare gave us a real moral issue there... NOT. Only the truly stupid would believe the Genophage was unnecessary. Given ALL the evidence we receive, there's simply no disputing it.  Is it a "Good" thing? No. It is absolutely essential? Hell Yes.

oh and Miranda... Self-Centred definitely. Other loyalties, certainly... "Fake" body ... oh no... thats all real. Designed rather than a natural fluke sure, but theres no silicon in that girl.


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## Boaz

Sephiroth said:


> In the end, I think the genophage was _necessary_ but not _right_. I hold that the Krogan are not beyond redemption, and that they should be afforded the opportunity to prove they can coexist with the other races, rather than be doomed to extinction for acting according to their nature in circumstances that spiralled beyond their control.


Necessary, but not right. Well, said. But I think you missed a point of the Genophage... the popular misconception is that the Genophage is the euthanization of the Krogan. Far from it. The Genophage actually reduces the Krogan fertility to very low levels. They are still able to procreate, but their birth rates are just enough to make sure they don't go extinct. Remember that Mordin Solus was involved with the secret development and surreptitious deployment of a New Genophage because the Krogan physiology had adapted to overcome the original Genophage. Solus was melancholy that the Salarians had interferred with the Krogan natural history and taken them straight from the Iron Age to interstellar space travel. His consolation (and maybe all of the Salarians') is that the Genophage has allowed the Krogan to survive instead of being exterminated by the Turian led Council forces. It has made the existence of the Krogan possible while they can be taught or until they grow to live in peace with their neighbors.

Maybe it's in the Krogan genes that they get even more violent when faced with overpopulation. Maybe that's how they achieve a balance with food supply and living space. The problem is that now they can take out their violence upon the rest of the galaxy and not just their own kind. By the way, Krogan spelled backwards is Nagork.... ork... ORC. They're space orcs.



devilsgrin said:


> The Genophane. Completely PRO-Genophage. The Krogan, as we learn from Wrex, then witness first hand on Tuchanka... cannot be trusted to manage their own population or cultural drive towards violence. Its not even a morally grey issue. the survival of the galaxy vs the population explosion of one annihilistic self-destructive species? BioWare gave us a real moral issue there... NOT. Only the truly stupid would believe the Genophage was unnecessary. Given ALL the evidence we receive, there's simply no disputing it. Is it a "Good" thing? No. It is absolutely essential? Hell Yes.


So the Genophage was the most humane option left thirteen hundred years ago. It was either the Genophage, Krogan genocide, or let them continue to wage incessant war upon the galaxy.

What about the highly covert (and illegal) invention and implementation of a New Genophage? Do you agree with the Salarian High Command's decision to do this on their own without the Council's knowledge or consent? Should the Krogan have been given a chance to re-enter Citadel Space peacefully?

Anyway...

Thanks, dg. I need to be reminded that Miranda does not have any implants.... I guess I cannot trust my eyes. 

Speaking of... Ashley definitely misses the benefits that the Asari, Salarians, Elcor, and others provide because she sees threats from Krogan, Turians, etc. But I do think the violence that was seen in the cycle of Rachni-Krogan-Turian military supremacy has obvious lessons... the first is that the Council (in ME) would seriously consider a war on humanity if the Council felt threatened... and it was feeling threatened. The second is that the Council will utilize chemical and biological warfare if it feels the need. Third, the Council will work peacably with those who will adhere to non-agressive communication.

Ash may be a lost cause... but what if the writers put in a story line for Liara, Samara or Tali to befriend her? Or would Ash simply think of any Asari as trying to mind control her?

Okay, I used the term mind control. That's wrong, I admit. But the Asari can influence feelings and perceptions, right? That's the Consort's power. That's the power of all Asari strip, err, I mean dancers... no one can miss them, they're everywhere. If you listen to the comments at the bachelor party in ME2, the Salarian, the Human, and the Turian all think the same strip.... err, I meant dancer... they all think the same dancer looks like their species. I think that any sane person would be wary of close relationships with Asari.

Sephiroth, I wish I could play the game like you. Let's face it, I'm not good at using a console controller. I'm not world class on a PC, but I'm much better than on the XBox. If I had the skill (and the patience) to play on a difficult setting, then I'd do it. But I have to think... _A will shoot, Left Bumper will bring up weapons, Y is bullet time..._ and often I miss the window of opportunity to use that power. The only games I've ever played on a console before ME and ME2 are _Dragon Age_ and _Dragon Age 2_, and neither one of them made me target anything. In fantasy games I can just grab the biggest weapon and wade into melee. So, maybe it is just a rationalization on my part by saying, "I'd rather follow the story, than mash buttons." All I know is... I'm not good.

And it is "way cool" that I don't have to play on Insanity to finish the game and that you can play on Insanity and still enjoy the story.

Edit: I forgot that my dad bought us an Atari for Christmas in 1976.  It had a button and a dial.  We played Pong and Breakout.  Then we had an Atari 2600 in 1981... it had one button and a joystick.  It's so hard for me to deal with four buttons, two joysticks, a thumbpad, two bumpers and two triggers.


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## devilsgrin

> So the Genophage was the most humane option left thirteen hundred years ago. It was either the Genophage, Krogan genocide, or let them continue to wage incessant war upon the galaxy.
> 
> What about the highly covert (and illegal) invention and implementation of a New Genophage? Do you agree with the Salarian High Command's decision to do this on their own without the Council's knowledge or consent? Should the Krogan have been given a chance to re-enter Citadel Space peacefully?



yes, i agree with the STGs updating of the genophage. Its necessity hasn't lessened, as the krogan haven't changed. Perhaps if Wrex can alter the culture to the necessary degrees that will allow the krogan to co-exist with other species, it may no longer be required. 
The genophage was definitely the most humane option. As Mordan says, it would have been EASY for him to sterilise the krogan completely (and as brilliant as he is, the creators of the genophage would have been able to do the same just as easily).




> Maybe it's in the Krogan genes that they get even more violent when faced with overpopulation. Maybe that's how they achieve a balance with food supply and living space. The problem is that now they can take out their violence upon the rest of the galaxy and not just their own kind. By the way, Krogan spelled backwards is Nagork.... ork... ORC. They're space orcs.



its pretty clear that the violence IS in their genes. it must also be remembered, that they are essentially a "prey species" of Tuchanka. That they evolved eyes on either side of their heads, rather than having forward facing eyes allowing binocular (and therefore a predator's) vision, is indicative of a species that had siginificant predators throughout it evolution. the Krogan entry in the "codex" mentions that until the invention of gunpowder the highest cause of death for krogan was "Death by predator" (thereafter it was death by gun-shot).  Without themselves as their own enemies, and without natural predators to keep their population in check, the genophage is crucial for galactic stability.


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## Cayal

whew you guys are having quite the discussion.
Since my PS3 is down I might get back on Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 and do different stories with it.


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## Bugg

I played the first game and most of the second on the 360. Got a new pc recently and there was an offer on Steam to get both games for about £12, so I jumped in (as I do). Now I'm thinking that I need to finish the second game in time for ME3, but I'm not sure I want to play ME1 through again on the pc at the moment. 

Does anyone have a take on the Genesis interactive comic that allows you to go through the story of the first game and make all the important decisions and then carry them into ME2?


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## biodroid

I actually got very bored with ME2, too much mining to get weapons, why can't I just use cash to upgrade?


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## Boaz

biodroid, yup. Expect to spend at least two hours mining (if you're fast and only mine rich worlds) to get the requisite minerals to get all the available upgrades for ship and squad. It's more like five hours if you're stupid like me and mine every planet for every slight tremor...

But your complaint brings up the basic quandary of all mechanics in video games... How do the devs extrapolate a physical/mental/spiritual activity into a meaningful method of data input, pleasing visuals, and sensible time and monetary constraints?... i.e. how can they make an activity believable...

Joystick for movement. Believable? Check.

Trigger for firing gun. Believable? Check.

Button for talking. Believable? Only if I don't think about it.

Health bar. Believable? I guess so. I mean, you've got to show how much damage you can take before becoming incapacitated, right? But I don't know how many giant monsters I've seen take tens of thousands of hitpoints to their ankles and then suddenly fall over dead. Oh, and never mind the fact that I can fight just as well with one hitpoint as with 20K. Funny how that did not seem to work for Peyton Manning this year...

Drink health potion to restore full health. Believable? If you even think this could be answered yes, then pinch yourself.

So in ME2, while dashing around to save the galaxy from imminent disaster, you must take time out to explore every world for minerals to build upgrades.... Uh, why doesn't Cerberus just bankroll it? That would make sense in time and money.

In ME, to unlock a safe, recover an artifact, or search a dead body I must play Simon. Hmmmmm, but if I botch Simon, then I can melt down a gun and shove the melted liquid into the keyhole and the safe will open?... sure. And I cannot carry any more stuff?... but if I melt down this armor, I can carry it better... okay, 'cause melted armor is always easier to haul around than unmelted armor. Uh huh, sure... whatever you say... Commander.

And in every single RTS, world building, wargame, RPG I've played, the very second the conditions for victory are met, the credits roll or I see the score chart. Really? Really? I just spent two to twelve hours building my empire and crushing my foes... can't I at least take a look at my map? View my throne room? Give medals to my champions? Read a brief summary of my reign? Now I must admit that Sid Meier and Bioware have given me some few moments to reflect upon my victories before running the credits, but you get my point.

And I can pause combat? Really? Sweet! I wish my friends who served in Iraq knew how to do that.

The creators have to get me to buy into their world. They have to get me to suspend my disbelief. For example, the Force in _Star Wars_ is a "hokey religion" if you think about it for more than a nanosecond. But since _Star Wars_ hit the theatres when I was ten (and really, who is more impressionable towards sci-fi than a ten year old?), I readily suspended my disbelief so I could enjoy the epic spectacle unfolding before my eyes. I'm not saying I believed in the Force, I'm saying that I did not disbelieve it.

Sigh.

dg, I confess I've not taken the time to read the codexes... codecis... codexi... I dunno, multiple codex for pete's sake! Sheesh. I like to operate in my own world of warm fuzzy memories.

Now I'll confess, that since I only played ME and ME2 in the last month (and because my Shepherd looks nothing like the default), that I just got your avatar. Doh! I know you've had it for at least three years.... my apologies, Commander.


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## devilsgrin

> Now I'll confess, that since I only played ME and ME2 in the last month (and because my Shepherd looks nothing like the default), that I just got your avatar. Doh! I know you've had it for at least three years.... my apologies, Commander.



your completely forgiven Boaz. hmmm... it does occur to me that i HAVE had it for a very long time now... my old one was a Renly Baratheon pic iirc. 
Perhaps my Dragon Age 2 Hawke could replace Shep... things must be considered... but with a looming ME3, i think i'll stick to Shepard. ((must add tho, MY Shep, is almost always a FEMshep - who looks nothing like default Jane Shep either - since the voice acting is MUCH better from Jennifer Hale))

I usually only listen to the codex's primary entries, since they're voiced. Although anything about the Asari i'll read.


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## devilsgrin

Bugg said:


> I played the first game and most of the second on the 360. Got a new pc recently and there was an offer on Steam to get both games for about £12, so I jumped in (as I do). Now I'm thinking that I need to finish the second game in time for ME3, but I'm not sure I want to play ME1 through again on the pc at the moment.
> 
> Does anyone have a take on the Genesis interactive comic that allows you to go through the story of the first game and make all the important decisions and then carry them into ME2?



the comic is pretty good. there are a very few things that it doesn't pick up, some of which are cerberus related, and often tied to the sole survivor background in particular. Overall the IC is a great way to dive into ME2 without the burden of having to replay ME1 all the way through again. 
I actually tried to start a new Shepard and play all the way through again... it took some serious effort to finish ME1... ME2 is shorter, and more open, so it wasn't such a trial.

I didn't mind the mining game... there ARE times where missions bore me, so a repetitive task with faster result and less attention required can be cathartic.


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## Bugg

devilsgrin said:


> the comic is pretty good. there are a very few things that it doesn't pick up, some of which are cerberus related, and often tied to the sole survivor background in particular. Overall the IC is a great way to dive into ME2 without the burden of having to replay ME1 all the way through again.
> I actually tried to start a new Shepard and play all the way through again... it took some serious effort to finish ME1... ME2 is shorter, and more open, so it wasn't such a trial.


Thanks, I shall go the comic route, then.


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## Galacticdefender

Ah, Mass Effect. Second only to Elder Scrolls as far as RPGs go, IMO. I love the planet variety (though I hope ME3 will have more varied planets than 2), the story, the setting. The novels set in the ME universe are pretty good too, though not s good as the Halo novels (some of the Halo books are really amazing). 

I'd say Mass Effect is one of the best Space Operas in the past 5 years or so, if not the best. It's actually influenced my own Sci-fi universe that I'm write all my stories in as well. Another awesome thing about ME is that it's almost Hard SF compared to a lot of other games/books/movies. Though I wish there were no biotics. Too many space operas have some sort of psionics A.K.A Magic, and it gets annoying. Just a weird flaw in a universe that makes quite a bit of sense scientifically. The Asari are also a bit far fetched.


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## devilsgrin

Galacticdefender said:


> Ah, Mass Effect. Second only to Elder Scrolls as far as RPGs go, IMO. I love the planet variety (though I hope ME3 will have more varied planets than 2), the story, the setting. The novels set in the ME universe are pretty good too, though not s good as the Halo novels (some of the Halo books are really amazing).
> 
> I'd say Mass Effect is one of the best Space Operas in the past 5 years or so, if not the best. It's actually influenced my own Sci-fi universe that I'm write all my stories in as well. Another awesome thing about ME is that it's almost Hard SF compared to a lot of other games/books/movies. Though I wish there were no biotics. Too many space operas have some sort of psionics A.K.A Magic, and it gets annoying. Just a weird flaw in a universe that makes quite a bit of sense scientifically. The Asari are also a bit far fetched.



In many ways for me Mass Effect is a proper RPG version of Star Wars. the REAL KOTOR 3. The science is slightly more in-your-face, but it has a VERY Star Wars feel. Much more than a Star Trek feel. There's strong Babylon 5 and Battlestar elements. And i think, visually especially, and in relation to the design of many of the aliens (Asari and Krogan in particular) Farscape has a huge influence. 
Biotics, i feel, are a way of bringing the almost expected psionic potential of our species out. Yet, its also presented as a very limited ability. Its almost entirely telekinetic, so its basically moving stuff with your mind... which anyone can do anyway, with an omni-tool and a droid... the combat effects are formidable sure, but they come at the expense of big weapons that can do the same things. Not to mention that the humans who can use it effectively in combat are SO rare as to be almost too valuable to risk in combat. 
I agree with the Asari being a slightly farfetched concept (i assume you mean their method of reproduction). Every other aspect of their culture however, paints them as Space Elves. And thats just fine with me.


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## Galacticdefender

Asari are space elves? Not really seeing that, but mainly because there is a much better example of space elves, that being the Eldar of Warhammer 40,000. I don't think the Asari's reproduction method is that far fetched (except for the inter species aspect) because there is actually a species of lizard on Earth that is an all female species. I mainly meant the fact that they all look so human. But maybe it's just their biotics making every race think they are hot? Maybe they actually look like space squid or something 

Still, I'd rather not have magic ("Psyonics") in scifi, especially such a scientifically well thought out universe as Mass effect. And if all biotics consists of is pushing things around and can be outmatched by guns, why is it in the universe in the first place? 

Also I'd like to see more sort of hostile environment planets in ME2. And I hope we get to go back to Noveria.


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## devilsgrin

> Asari are space elves? Not really seeing that, but mainly because there is a much better example of space elves, that being the Eldar of Warhammer 40,000. I don't think the Asari's reproduction method is that far fetched (except for the inter species aspect) because there is actually a species of lizard on Earth that is an all female species. I mainly meant the fact that they all look so human. But maybe it's just their biotics making every race think they are hot? Maybe they actually look like space squid or something



As much as i agree that Eldar are 40k's space elves, they are completely unlike the usual sort of Elves we see in most fiction, heck they're completely unlike either the High, Wood or Dark elves of Fantasy Warhammer. The Eldar are a much more brutally pragmatic species than any other elf we see.
The thing that makes Asari as Space Elves is not their appearance - although now that you mention it, the similarities to humans ARE a point in my argument, elves always are very similar to humans in appearance (though usually not blue with whatever the things on the back of their heads are called, certainly not tentacles... they're more like the Twi'Lek lekku).
Its the advanced nature of their culture and society that makes them elf-ish to me. Advanced science, advanced military - the best soldiers in the galaxy, a government as advanced as we could conceivably see democracy become. They're an aspirational species - one that every other ME universe species wants to be more like, as much as they may not want to admit it. And THAT is what makes them space elf-like to me.


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## Galacticdefender

The Eldar are kind of like High Elves. They are a culture slowly dying out, they are/were arrogant, etc. They are just more brutal to fit the 40k setting.

The Asari definitely aren't my favorite race though. Favs are brobably a tie between Quarians and Turians.


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## Connavar

I playing Mass Effects 2 since i was recommended to me after Skyrim got me interested for the first time in PPGs.  Since im more of SF fan than fantasy ME2 is ideal to me.  Its more film like with the videos, storyline, the dialogue than even great game like Skyrim.

Im sick of quality games that cost alot like Uncharted 3 and you can complete in 10 hours max.  So i like action RPGS that feel like being a hero in a fun SF adventure and i have played like 15 hours in game and have not got in half into the game.


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## Rodders

I have Mass Effect 2 at home, but have yet to play it. (PC's been acting a bit squiffy for a while now.) I keep picking up the Tie in books at Waterstones and i'm quite intrigued. How do they hold up?


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## Connavar

I have the game from library since im broke student without student loan this term hehe 

I have to play alot until next week and loan the game again and again.

Can any old fan of ME games tell me how charm, romance thing work in ME2?  I have only flirted alittle with shepards personal assistent and gotten to know little about Miranda's father, history.  Heck how much paragon do you need for new dialogue of that kind.


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## CyBeR

I'm now playing the game on Insanity difficulty. 
Tried it first as a New Game+ but the difficulty in that was absolutely annoying so I restarted with a fresh character that I'll carry into *Mass Effect 3*. It's a lot easier playing a Soldier than a Vanguard.


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## Connavar

CyBeR said:


> I'm now playing the game on Insanity difficulty.
> Tried it first as a New Game+ but the difficulty in that was absolutely annoying so I restarted with a fresh character that I'll carry into *Mass Effect 3*. It's a lot easier playing a Soldier than a Vanguard.



Whats different between Soldier and Vanguard, the others ?  Which one is biotic user ?  Have you used other type of Shepards than Soldier?


I like my Shepard black, bald Riddick looking like. I just hope you can make little change if you use the same character in ME3. I wanted to add little facial hair.


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## Boaz

Conn, I don't know the "ins" and "outs" of the romances.  You can find out that info online, but beware of spoilers.  I think the general rule is if you think you can, you can.  

The one romance option I will talk about is Jack.  My paragon Shepard felt sorry for Jack and he was not going to continue her life of misuse and abandonment (and he hates tatoos).  So he befriended Jack and turned her down when she asked about sex.  She was cool with that, we did her mission, she became loyal, and everything was fine.  Fifteen missions later, Shepard stopped in just to check on her and the dialogue option came up "How are we doing?"  That question turned out to be an irreversible romance question option.  Because Shepard was currently romancing Miranda, Jack became hostile _for the rest of the game_.  That was baaaaad scripting... or just a bad coincidence.  Oh, and Jack never made it off the Collector Base... because of that question.  She would have made it if I'd never chosen it.  

I've played Shepard as a straight soldier through all three games.  As a result, I was forced to take Tali on every mission in the first game.  I had to have the engineering skill or miss out on loot.  So I played a female Shepard (I hate the term femShep) as a Sentinel (Soldier/Tech) and left Tali on the ship.


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## Brian G Turner

I tried playing _Mass Effect 2_ this week. I managed to get a couple of hours in before I gave up.

The graphics are very pretty, but the gameplay felt limited. I found the dialogue and story cheesy and weak (I've also been playing _Call of Duty: MW3_, which has pretty decent plotting and dialogue).

Though, to be fair, _Mass Effect 2_ was released in 2010, so I guess it might have been a product of its time but now superseded by better written story-driven games and RPGs.


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