# When bad people do good things



## GnomeoftheWest (Aug 23, 2003)

Why is it, especially in fantasy literature, that "good" and/or "bad" characters are drawn so sharply?
I mean even people I perceive as "bad" have done something altruistic at some point.  It's just that the cliche of "good vs evil" is so worn out, you know the end of the story at the set- up. Either "good" will prevail, or "evil" will have some sort of epiphony and go for redemption (meaning that on some level they were always good anyway). About Face!!!
In other word they are about evil destroyed or being redeemed.  It made me mad that Darth Vader could be so easily won over.  "You were right, Luke.  You were right."    Gag!!!!


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## dwndrgn (Aug 23, 2003)

You do se a lot of the 'good vs. bad' in fantasy but the good ones have a variety of characters who struggle over what they've done that was bad or have tried to do good and have had bad consequences.  I also like when they throw in a few 'take me or leave me - this is the way I am neither good nor bad' and the ones that aren't really evil but only look to themselves and what they can get out of life.  I like when they (the writers) do this as it shows a better cross-section of society.  You can see some of this in Carol Berg's trilogy that begins with Restoration.  Then there are the 'good' ones that end up actually being bad, but in secret shown well in Rhapsody (E. Hayden).

If you read the Mad Ship trilogy you see a very diverse set of characters and you know that just like in real life none of them are cut and dried evil or good - just people trying to get along in life somehow, some way.

In the Nightrunner series by Lynn Flewelling you see another set of characters that you don't know are either good or evil - sometimes the people who do bad things are the good guys...you just never know.  A small caveat for this series, if you are homophobic don't read it, one of the main characters is gay.  It is a great series if that doesn't bother you though - I wish she would do more.


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## Foxbat (Aug 23, 2003)

I've mentioned this in another thread but you really must try Stephen Donaldson's Gap Series. Within the storyline, people are constantly changing. For example, in book 1  Angus Thermopyle is, without a doubt, the baddie. But things are constantly shifting...sometimes he does good things and then resorts to his usual depravity. Nick Succorso seems to be the hero but, he also has a deep well of pragmatism into which he delves. 
The seriously flawed characters are by far the best in my opinion (probably bacause they are the most realistic). 
Hamlet is a classic example of somebody that is neither good nor bad but stuck somewhere in the middle - ensnared by his own rage and indecision. It took me ages to work out why I liked him so much... and then it struck me. He is probably the most human character that Shakespeare created.


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## Brian G Turner (Aug 25, 2003)

I was going to mention the Gap series - though I haven't read it (and no idea whether I would actually want to!).

But from what people say of it, the whole idea of black and white morality (which I also despise in literature!) is taken the to the other extreme - of complete amorality. 

There's a review up on alternative worlds by Green Cloak that seems to make a point of emphasising this:

Stephen Donaldson - Gap Series


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## Twelve (Aug 26, 2003)

Bah.

I see nothing wrong with the idea of good v.s evil, and good kicking evil's behind everytime. It's a beautiful concept that I'll never get sick of, and am quite grateful for it.

We here live in rather peaceful societies and worlds...where true evil seems so far away. It's seems ok and safe for us to imagine a world or a story where evil wins, since evil can't really harm us in reality.

Me personally? I can't STAND stories that blur the lines. Guess I'm the opposite from the opinion here...hehe. I want to see an AMAZING, WELL drawn out villain, and then I want to see him dead in the end. Period.

I like bad guys a lot, but even more, I like seeing them fall.


12


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## dwndrgn (Aug 26, 2003)

I like both the 'black and white' good vs evil and the more grey sort of good vs evil as well.

Some are better than others.  Plain cardboard cookie-cutter villains unless they are done tongue-in-cheek can be boring though.  You are right Twelve, in that the villain must be done well - even if he/she is a stereotype.


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## Brian G Turner (Aug 26, 2003)

Okay - my wording was a little over-strong up there.

I would much prefer to see the lines blurred - but *Twelve* is quite right that it's hard not to get drawn into some aspect of clearly defined morality. Certainly I've enjoyed it in some places - simply not in others. I prefer to try and move away from simple morality in my own writing - I want to raise questions, to make people ask, and examine themselves as they read the issues. 

However, at some point proganists often need justify as being so. For all my love of blurring of the moral boundaries, being seen to do "the right thing" is often important for characters. However, even then, you can throw some very interesting conflicts of morality, even on that single motivation.


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## X Q mano (Aug 26, 2003)

I agree with dwdndrgn... (Did I get that name right this time?)

We need both. Grey and black/white stories. I can see a room for both in this vast universe.

And maybe I like good guys because I am a good guy myself...  Easier to relate...


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## dwndrgn (Aug 30, 2003)

You're close X Q mano!  It is short for Dawn Dragon - just take out all the vowels. ;-)


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