# Bermuda Triangle



## RJM Corbet (Mar 31, 2011)

A ship is sailing on the sea, on the seabed, which is very deep in that area, and in which there are known to be methane vents, a very large bubble of methane builds up, the water pressure at the depth allows it to get _very large, _until finally it breaks away from the vent and rises up through miles of water -- a bubble, let's say, half a kilometer in diameter.
The ship just happens to be directly in the place where the bubble hits the surface of the ocean, creating a hole in the water half a kilometer wide and half a kilometer deep?
No chance for radio transmissions. Gone without trace.
The bubble rises (yes I know methane is heavier than air, I'm working on that part) -- the bubble rises into the sky, and there's an aeroplane there, whose wings are designed to fly upon air, a mixture of 4 parts nitrogen and one part oxygen, not upon methane.
No chance for radio transmissions, gone without trace...
I'm sure this is not a new idea?


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## mosaix (Apr 1, 2011)

It works a lot better for disappearing ships.

I think this very theory was put forward in a Science Fact article in Analog about 15 years ago. In the article it was a sea-bed landslide / tremor that caused the release.


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## chrispenycate (Apr 1, 2011)

Methane isn't denser than air; 

Gas	Formula	Molecular weight	Density - ρ -

Air		         29	               1.2051)
                                               1.2932)	

Methane	CH4	16.043	       0.6681)
                                               0.7172)
But even if its engines stopped and the methane gave less lift than air, it would still glide for some considerable distance ; it wouldn't just fall like a cartoon character off a cliff unless you sawed its wings off.

And methane wouldn't block a radio distress call. Um, I don't know international distress frequencies, so couldn't estimate a molecule that might absorb them.


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## Vertigo (Apr 1, 2011)

I believe it has been shown that a mechanism similar to the one you describe can indeed sink a ship. However rather than one big bubble it is a mass of rising bubbles that creates an area of aerated*, turbulent water which simply can't support a boat. However I don't think it would work for an aeroplane. Even if it did take it out of the sky there would no longer be the "hole" in the ocean and it would probably break up on contact leaving significant floating debris that would be found.

OK methane not air, I just don't know the right word


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## Dave (Apr 1, 2011)

The Bermuda Triangle is an Urban Myth. Being at the crossroads of the Caribbean and US Eastern seaboard it is one of the busiest places in the world for aeroplanes and ships. The more planes and ships you have, the more are going to have accidents, and the more will have unexplained disappearances. As a proportion of the total flights/voyages in that area, insurance claims show that there are no more unexplained disappearances than anywhere else. The bottom line is that if not, you would never get insurance to travel there.


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## Deathpool (Apr 1, 2011)

What you're not taking into account Dave is the eye witness accoutns. When you do the stories they tell are far stranger than you can imagine. These are actaul survivors. Thesare experienced pilots and sea captains. You truly believe that the insurance companies woudl conduct a true scientific test? I don't think they'd be able too. To that they'd have to get truly qualifed Scientists involved. You've got your facts all wrong Dave. I don't know where you get them, but just the fact that it's one of the two places in the world where the compasses point to true North instead of magentic North tells me something. The Devil's Sea also has this type of stuff. Flight 19 actaully consisted of experienced Fighter pilots. Note I said fighter pilots. They were being trained to fly Avengers. They knew what sky should look like. They were experienced pilots. An Avanger has bomb bay and a bomb site. Further more an Avenger also has a rear gunner. Actually the reason that nothing really happens is because ships and planse fly around it. They don't flying through it. The traffice isn't the highest in the Burmuda Triangle Dave. It's actaully nearly non-existant. Another thing Dave is i don't think you've done very much reading about the subject. I have a whole book about it. Also I've studied Trigonometry Physics and coledge level Chemistry though you wouldn't recognize the fact. I believe you're a writer so you wouldn't know enough about science to really study it with an open mind. I do however and so does Chris. What I have a problem with is people diving a field they're not very familier with and they contradict me even when I prove them wrong. As of yet I have a few ideas and they're not aliens or supernatural beings. Now don't just say I'm wrong, because these are just unproven assumptions. That's what a theory is. A theory is an assumption that has little or no proof. Do the insurance companies know how to conduct a true scientific test? I don't think so. A true scientific test with all variables the same except for one. If more than one are changed than conclusion could have been arrived at through any one of the changes or a combination of the variables. The scientist must not have a closed mind!!!! There's also stories of radar, compasses, and radios going crazy. Another thing is that in modern planes there's an electronic device in planes that allows rescuers to home in on the plane after it crashes. It's water proof and if it does crashes the device is injected. In Burmuda Triangle they disapear without a trace. How's that possible with that device Dave? Explain it to me.

http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/html/those_who_lived_to_tell.html


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## mosaix (Apr 1, 2011)

Deathpool said:


> The scientist must not have a closed mind!!!!



That's true for everybody, not just scientists.

The problem is that when people discuss issues they always think it's the other guy's mind that is closed.

But, I'm with Dave on this one. I've read a few books on the issue, including the official report on flight 19 which, incidentally, was written by American Air Force personnel - including pilots.


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 1, 2011)

Ok, how about Hydrogen Sulphide? Stink bomb gas. Made by dissolving a sulphide in acid. Four times more poisonous than Hydrogen Cyanide? The guys on the oil rigs, if they hit a pocket of H2S have to drop everything and dive for the gas masks. If you inhale a full lungful, essentially you're dead. Would that rise? The wreckage problem -- umm ...


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## iansales (Apr 1, 2011)

I thought it had proved that rogue waves were responsible for most of the disappearances in the Bermuda Triangle. And, in fact, the Bermuda Triangle is no more notable for its disappearances than any other area of the oceans.


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 1, 2011)

Dave said:


> The Bermuda Triangle is an Urban Myth. Being at the crossroads of the Caribbean and US Eastern seaboard it is one of the busiest places in the world for aeroplanes and ships. The more planes and ships you have, the more are going to have accidents, and the more will have unexplained disappearances. As a proportion of the total flights/voyages in that area, insurance claims show that there are no more unexplained disappearances than anywhere else. The bottom line is that if not, you would never get insurance to travel there.


 
Yes, there's the Devil's Sea too, off Japan, also very deep water. I agree with you that one is looking for natural explanations rather than supernatural ones. What comes out from science is far stranger than anyone could dream up anyway: antimatter is matter moving backwards in time. Richard Feynman? Has anyone read his biography? In quantum mechanics, time can reverse, and its all just probability: if you toss a coin a thousand times, it should average out around 50/50 heads/tails, but you can't predict the result of a single throw.
There are stranger things on heaven and earth ...


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## Dave (Apr 1, 2011)

Gosh! Where shall I start?


Deathpool said:


> ...you wouldn't know enough about science to really study it with an open mind.


So, Physics, Chemistry and Biology to A level don't count for much I guess? How about a BSc? Will an MSc do it for you? How about a Diploma from Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine? No, I admit it, I guess I really just don't know enough about science anymore in this world of conspiracy theorists. 



Deathpool said:


> The traffice isn't the highest in the Burmuda Triangle Dave. It's actaully nearly non-existant.


And that special honours BSc included Geography, so I think I do know where Bermuda is.  

Bermuda is only an hour and a half flight from New York and about two from Boston. Some of the busiest airports in the world are nearby - John F. Kennedy International Airport, Newark Liberty International Airport, Orlando International Airport, Charlotte Douglas International Airport, Miami International Airport.

The 'Triangle' is a heavily flown route for both private and commercial aircraft heading towards Florida, the Caribbean, and South America from the north. In addition it is one of the most heavily travelled shipping lanes in the world, with ships crossing through it daily between ports in the Americas, Europe, and the Caribbean Islands. Cruise ships are also plentiful, and pleasure craft regularly go back and forth between Florida and the islands within the 'triangle'. 


Deathpool said:


> Another thing Dave is i don't think you've done very much reading about the subject. I have a whole book about it.


No, that is quite true, I tend to avoid those kind of books.  Even whole books! I would suggest you do too, or maybe you write some of them yourself. I heard that they sell well! 



RJM Corbet said:


> Four times more poisonous than Hydrogen Cyanide?


I would dispute that fact, but it is certainly very poisonous. Hydrogen sulfide could have been implicated in several mass extinctions that have occurred in the Earth's past. In particular, a buildup of hydrogen sulfide in the atmosphere may have caused the Permian-Triassic extinction event 252 million years ago. It is quite possible there is a vent in the mid-Atlantic, but I think they may have found it before now.

Also, I don't dispute that there may be some weird magnetic anomalies in the area. The Earth's magnetic field is not at all even:
http://gravmag.ou.edu/mag_earth/magnetic_field_a.gif

Neither is the Earth's Gravity even:
BBC News - Gravity satellite yields 'Potato Earth' view



Deathpool said:


> What you're not taking into account Dave is the eye witness accoutns. When you do the stories they tell are far stranger than you can imagine.


This not the same scientific evidence you are asking me to provide. I'd doubt that more than a few % of those stories are true. Haven't something like 80% of Americans surveyed also been by probed by Alien beings? Or, is that actually true as well? Yes, sorry, I don't have an open mind and don't know enough about science; I forgot that! 



Deathpool said:


> You truly believe that the insurance companies woudl conduct a true scientific test? I don't think they'd be able too. To that they'd have to get truly qualifed Scientists involved.


You misunderstood that part. I didn't claim any scientific test. It is a question of simple economics. If a region is unsafe - such as off the horn of Africa because of Somali pirate attacks - then the insurance premium for your ship is going to rise steeply. The fact is that in the Bermuda triangle the number of claims set against the number of ships is no higher than anywhere else.


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## Dave (Apr 1, 2011)

Shipping:







Flights:






More flights:


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## chrispenycate (Apr 1, 2011)

> Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine?



They've added medicine? When I attended, it was just science and technology (nobody counts the miners) Mind you, the Huxley building (where I failed to study) is now part of the V & A museum, there are masses of new(ish) buildings on Queensgate…

And yes, I attempt to keep an open mind (it's easier for mathematicians to do that than fizzycysts; fewer checks and balances). But I will always search for a solution within conventional physics unless this requires extreme distortion of the evidence (the state of my beard testifies to the efficacity of shaving with Occam's razor).

The manipulation of evidence to demonstrate what one already knows to be true is widely used everywhere in human society, and the scientific community, who should be ready to dump any theory the moment it no longer fits the facts, is not immune to it. Still, with a few (generally ageing) exceptions, they are more flexible than most politicians, or theologians, or…


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 1, 2011)

I see a distinct _triangle_ there ... am going to do a quick check on Google Earth


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 1, 2011)

Yup. Looks like they give Bermuda a distinct miss?


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## Interference (Apr 1, 2011)

Any three random points will give you a triangle. I understand the "Bermuda Triangle" expands and contracts depending on who you talk to.


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 1, 2011)

Sure. I just took the island of Bermuda as point of reference. Again, perhaps thread is inaptly named. More like marine/air dissappearances? Giant gas bubbles? Ships and planes dissappear everywhere. There was the _Waratah_ off the coast of South Africa.


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## Interference (Apr 1, 2011)

The problem is that when people don't come back, the imagination can go wild - particularly when famous people are involved.

However, it is enjoyable to speculate about supernatural causes because the imagination is more important by far than reality 

(not an opinion, a _fact_ ))


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## Dave (Apr 1, 2011)

chrispenycate said:


> They've added medicine? When I attended, it was just science and technology (nobody counts the miners)


They added the medicine after me too, I only know this because they send me letters begging for money because I'm now supposed to be reaping the riches of an education. (I agree about the RSM.)



RJM Corbet said:


> Sure. I just took the island of Bermuda as point of reference. Again, perhaps thread is inaptly named. More like marine/air dissappearances? Giant gas bubbles? Ships and planes dissappear everywhere. There was the _Waratah_ off the coast of South Africa.


Well if you want to expand the topic, then in that case, I'd say something such as the Mary Celeste is much more unusual. It didn't sink in any storm, it was seaworthy. When found adrift, it still had six months of food and water on board, her cargo was virtually untouched and the personal belongings of passengers and crew were still in place, including valuables. The crew were experienced and able seamen and the weather was fine. You cannot explain that by gas bubbles!


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## Vertigo (Apr 1, 2011)

The Bermuda triangle:






And as far as I can see that is showing as pretty darn busy in both of the maps up there!

And Wiki's summary type comment:



> Documented evidence indicates that a significant percentage of the incidents were inaccurately reported or embellished by later authors, and numerous official agencies have stated that the number and nature of disappearances in the region is similar to that in any other area of ocean


 
As far as unexplained disappearances go, if there are no survivors and you can't find the wreckage then of course all sorts of theories start getting kicked around. Take the flight over the Andes to Lima (just before the second world war I think it was). All sorts of conspiracy theories about that one as I think it had some important diplomat types aboard. No one knew what had happened. Then bits of the plane started popping out of a glacier a few years back and they have now pieced together the probable events. Flying high above the Andes it would appear the aeroplane got into the jet stream (before anyone knew it existed) this slowed them down significantly and threw out their dead reckoning navigation. They descended too soon and smashed into a mountain. The impact casued a massive avalanche that completely hid the wreckage from the searchers. Pretty bizarre but not unexplainable once we knew all the facts.


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## Deathpool (Apr 1, 2011)

The truth is I haven't had the chance to study the Burmuda Triangle for myself. I didn't distort the facts either. Since I don't trust anybody to provide answers that aren't distorted I always search it for myself. People with degrees really get me. Eistein proved a professor wrong and the professor called him an arragont dog. Who really was the aragont dog? The professor obviously. When I hire someone I administer specail tests and wouldn't pay any attention to degrees. I had an eperience in school like that when I was in seventh grade. I still remember it. The teacher was wrong. She in fact gave credit to another teacher for providing the same anser I provided before. I have a real problem with degrees because normally they think they're above anyone else and they miss someone like Einstien. I don't believe it's a supernatural explanation. There are different kinds of witness. When a scientist is providing evidense he or she isn't a witness to the testing? That's incorrect Dave. In court they're called Expert Witnesses. Yes they're witnesses. In the sceintifict community they're still called witness because they administered the test and saw the results. Just saying there's evidense doesn't convince me. Where's the evidense? Scientists falsify results all time. They can't stand it when they're own theories are disproven. My explanation is natural, but I won't say because I'll just be laughed at and banned. I haven't really come on anything definite about the Burmuda Triangle since I haven't had a chance to go there.


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## mosaix (Apr 2, 2011)

Deathpool said:


> I have a real problem with degrees because normally they think they're above anyone else and they miss someone like Einstien.



Deathpool, I seem to remember that Einstein was awarded a PHD.


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## Deathpool (Apr 2, 2011)

He was awarded a PHD years after because of some of his work. I'm just unhappy because I can't learn on my own and pass a final exam just to get credentials. I feel like starting my own testing center. Einstien thought that the Burmuda Triangle was a gateway to another world. The thing is that Einstien earned his by his work. Something I'd never be able to do.


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## Nik (Apr 2, 2011)

The methane hydrate burp is certainly a plausible explanation for *some* of the area's more bizarre sinkings, and the stuff has certainly given a couple of rigs a bad time...

IIRC, traditional navigation in the area can be a bit fraught because the magnetic offset from True North changes across it: You must know where you are to apply the appropriate correction...

Having the Gulf Stream whisking you sideways between sundry ship-eating coral keys can't help !!

Uh, the infamous Missing Flight may have run into something like this, plus the confuddled flight-leader's navigator reckoning he was *West* of Florida rather than *East* due to a non-existent 'reciprocal' gaffe, mis-identifying islands and just making things worse. And, of course, the rest of the flight reluctantly followed orders and went along...

Uh, the Waratah was the classic example of wind against current raising rogue waves. IIRC, several potential danger areas were eventually identified, and ship-masters then avoided them. But, recent radar imaging of wave heights has showed that rogue waves can arise 'from a normal sea-state', too, due to some nifty non-linear math...


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## Deathpool (Apr 2, 2011)

Nik said:


> The methane hydrate burp is certainly a plausible explanation for *some* of the area's more bizarre sinkings, and the stuff has certainly given a couple of rigs a bad time...
> 
> IIRC, traditional navigation in the area can be a bit fraught because the magnetic offset from True North changes across it: You must know where you are to apply the appropriate correction...
> 
> ...


 
Something caused electrical malfunction on a tugboat going through the Burmuda Triangle. It was clear day and not a cloud in the sky. The captain was in his cabin when the electricity suddenly failed. He checked the generators and everything was just fine.

He opened the door and looked outside. A strange eveloped the tow! He closed the door.

When he returned to his cabin a blow smacked as if the tug had hit something. At five years sea he had never a sqall the one that had hit out of knowhere.

He went out of the cabin and got into the pilot's seat. None of the equiptment was working. The compass had crazy as well as the radio and radar. At the time he was worried about the tow, but then they began to worry about the tug. He rammed the throttle full ahead. Two two thousand horse power duel cam deasal and they weren't making a foot!

The squall blew itself out in under an hour. When squall was over the captain went outside with some of the crew to check for damages. There was a chill in the air, but he touched the rails they hot enough to give him a smart burn. 

Then he looked up and saw that the tow was gone. He pulled in the houser line and it wasn't ragged as if it had part. He described as a clean splice that looked as if it had been chopped by a fire ax. The water was confused where tow had been, but nowhere else. 

When they arrived at port they had to throw away every battery on the tug because they were no good. I really doubt this is methane gas. Methane wouldn't hold back a tug boat like that. The two engines on that were huge. The Burmuda Triangle is in a set location and is a set size. There are specific coordinates for it Interference, but you all wouldn't know that because you haven't done much studying in the area. These people aren't just anybody. There's even an incident that involves an airliner. We're talking about seasoned pilots. These are people that aren't crackpots. To tell you the truth I really don't think Insurance companies would investigate this with an open mind. They're likely scoffing at the idea, because it sounds too absurd. This is just one story. 

There are plenty of others. It sounds to me like whatever's involved is some sort of electromagnetic force. If the tug was made of metal a strong enough magnetic force would hold it back and it might drain the batteries energy. It doesn't explain the splice though. I suppose you'll say that somebody did, but the problem is the 4 inch houser rope was spliced a long way out there.

Now let's talk about storms. There's always a warning of a storm coming. Dark clouds would be in sky. A water spout couldn't have done that. There would be warning. There woudl be funnel clouds in the sky since a water spout is a sea tornado. Now I have a question. How recent is the data. If it's from ten or more years ago forget it. If it's five years ago maybe.


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## Dave (Apr 2, 2011)

Deathpool said:


> Einstien thought that the Burmuda Triangle was a gateway to another world.


You need to start to substantiating at least some of your claims, such as this one, with references to an original primary source. You ask for others to provide you with evidence for their claims, then you dismiss it as fake. You very rudely ask me to prove my credentials, then you say I'm just acting superior. Yet you are happy to believe in weird explanations when Occam's razor that Chris talked about would tell you it is thunder storms and tall waves. I still maintain that if the Bermuda Triangle really existed then insurance premiums would be higher than in other area of the ocean. Rather than "scoff" at this, insurance companies need to make a profit, or go out of business, so they have investigated this fully. Norman Hooke conducted marine casualty studies for Lloyd's Maritime Information Services, based in London and came to the conclusion that "The Bermuda Triangle does not exist." He instead says that disappearances in the Triangle are typically weather-related.


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## iansales (Apr 2, 2011)

Dave, the Marie Celeste has also been solved. It was caused by a flash fire in its cargo of barrels of alcohol. Apparently, under certain conditions this can ignite without actually leaving any evidence it had burned. This explains the open hatch cover and the alcohol missing from nine barrels. The crew panicked, abandoned ship, and were lost.


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## woodsman (Apr 2, 2011)

I remember in my first year at uni we were introduced to Arne Naess and the principles of Deep Ecology - something that has fascinated me ever since. The other thing our tutor introduced us to was his principles/guidelines for debate which are probably well remembered here: 

Avoid tendentious irrelevance
Examples: Personal attacks, claims of opponents' motivation, explaining reasons for an argument.

Avoid tendentious quoting
Quotes should not be edited regarding the subject of the debate.

Avoid tendentious ambiguity
Ambiguity can be exploited to support criticism.

Avoid tendentious use of straw men
Assigning views to the opponent that he or she does not hold.

Avoid tendentious statements of fact
Information put forward should never be untrue or incomplete, and one should not withhold relevant information.

Avoid tendentious tone of presentation
Examples: irony, sarcasm, pejoratives, exaggeration, subtle (or open) threats.

So basically Deathpool, after you asked Dave to show his scientific credentials you can't really get angry about him/his view point because he holds a degree. I appreciate you may have issues with the academic community but to dismiss it in its entirety is foolish. When you have evidence present it for critique, rather than attack those who disagree with you. 

To the issue itself: As there's no above average losses(see ref) in the area then there's probably no weird explanation for those that do occur. 

Carroll, R. (2002). Bermuda (or Devil’s) Triangle
Rosenberg, H. (1974). Exorcizing the Devil’s Triangle
Finding papers on the thing is difficult as its widely used metaphorically! There's not a lot of peer-reviewed stuff.


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## mosaix (Apr 2, 2011)

Deathpool said:


> He was awarded a PHD years after because of some of his work.  The thing is that Einstien earned his by his work.



He was awarded a PHD by the University of Zurich in 1905 after submitting a dissertation. Just like everyone else. 



> Einstien thought that the Burmuda Triangle was a gateway to another world.


No he didn't.


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## woodsman (Apr 2, 2011)

mosaix said:


> He was awarded a PHD by the University of Zurich in 1905 after submitting a dissertation. Just like everyone else.



http://www.spsnational.org/radiations/2005/ecp_spring05.pdf


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## mosaix (Apr 2, 2011)

Thanks for that, Woodsman.


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 3, 2011)

I would just like to say that it was Albert Einsteinn (PHD?) who endorsed 'Fingerprints of the Gods' by Grahham Hancock, and that if you ain't read that, you ain't read nothing (I can't preface every entry by: in my opinion) ...


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 3, 2011)

Nik said:


> The methane hydrate burp is certainly a plausible explanation for *some* of the area's more bizarre sinkings, and the stuff has certainly given a couple of rigs a bad time...
> 
> IIRC, traditional navigation in the area can be a bit fraught because the magnetic offset from True North changes across it: You must know where you are to apply the appropriate correction...
> 
> ...


 
Methane is poisonous too ...


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 3, 2011)

iansales said:


> Dave, the Marie Celeste has also been solved. It was caused by a flash fire in its cargo of barrels of alcohol. Apparently, under certain conditions this can ignite without actually leaving any evidence it had burned. This explains the open hatch cover and the alcohol missing from nine barrels. The crew panicked, abandoned ship, and were lost.


 
Yup! (I tried that but entry demands 7 characters so ...)


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## mosaix (Apr 4, 2011)

RJM Corbet said:


> I would just like to say that it was Albert Einsteinn (PHD?) who endorsed 'Fingerprints of the Gods' by Grahham Hancock, and that if you ain't read that, you ain't read nothing (I can't preface every entry by: in my opinion) ...



Would that be the *Fingerprints of The Gods* published in 1995 by *Graham Hancock,* born 1950?

And would that be the Albert Einstein that died in 1955?


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes and yes. The book starts with a map, and it is the map that was endorsed by Einstein. I won't defend myself here. You're quite right. I wasn't thinking ...


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## Deathpool (Apr 10, 2011)

Dave said:


> You need to start to substantiating at least some of your claims, such as this one, with references to an original primary source. You ask for others to provide you with evidence for their claims, then you dismiss it as fake. You very rudely ask me to prove my credentials, then you say I'm just acting superior. Yet you are happy to believe in weird explanations when Occam's razor that Chris talked about would tell you it is thunder storms and tall waves. I still maintain that if the Bermuda Triangle really existed then insurance premiums would be higher than in other area of the ocean. Rather than "scoff" at this, insurance companies need to make a profit, or go out of business, so they have investigated this fully. Norman Hooke conducted marine casualty studies for Lloyd's Maritime Information Services, based in London and came to the conclusion that "The Bermuda Triangle does not exist." He instead says that disappearances in the Triangle are typically weather-related.


 
Yes I'm just making claims. Yes I'm a super rude slob that has nothing better to do than argue. Anyway I did think it was natural means. Anyway's I'm a terrible debater and I normal end up reading something somewhere. Often times I don't even remember certain details. Anyways I deserved the reply even though it does hurt. It hurts though simply because it's the truth. Anyway I haven't had a chance to go there and observe for myself. I wouldn't publicize my findings though since nobody would believe me the unqualified idiot that I am. This thread could probably be closed anyway. You'll likely won't have to deal with me because I'll likely be banned soon anyway.


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