# Keep the Premise, Forget the Plot



## Guttersnipe (Sep 23, 2021)

Are there any films that have a premise you love, yet you hate where the creator went with the story? What would you change and why?


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## BAYLOR (Sep 23, 2021)

Starship Troopers ,  I love  the book and I loath the Paul Verhoeven film.


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## paranoid marvin (Sep 25, 2021)

Event Horizon. Had the potential to be a brilliant film, but all went a bit silly.


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## Mon0Zer0 (Sep 25, 2021)

paranoid marvin said:


> Event Horizon. Had the potential to be a brilliant film, but all went a bit silly.



Agree.

For me it's the Ewan McGregor / Michael Bay flop "The Island"


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## .matthew. (Sep 25, 2021)

The entire Star Wars franchise after the original trilogy


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## HareBrain (Sep 25, 2021)

_Titanic_. Interesting ship-board drama ruined by totally unnecessary calamity.


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## asp3 (Sep 25, 2021)

I'm afraid I've pretty much purged those films that "could have been so much better" from my memory.  If one comes up I'll definitely post it here.


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## Valtharius (Sep 25, 2021)

HareBrain said:


> _Titanic_. Interesting ship-board drama ruined by totally unnecessary calamity.


Agreed. At the beginning the ship is explicitly said to be unsinkable and then it sinks at the end. How can you write such a huge plothole and nobody notices?


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## Ursa major (Sep 25, 2021)

Valtharius said:


> How can you write such a huge plothole and nobody notices?


If said plothole is below the waterline...?


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## AnRoinnUltra (Sep 25, 2021)

Stowaway
Thought it had a serious moral dilemma but sorta went a bit too easy with it.
Changes:
A stowaway is found and the captain (Marina) instantly makes an executive decision to kill him ...just a little too easily. David and Zoe are freaked, figure they could be next, and plot to give it to Marina in the neck once a pre Mars McGuffin task involving all the crew is completed. Marina smells a rat and stalls the task till the very last minute, and kills David, but Zoe manages to get hold of a heavy object and bludgeons the captain to death. The first images beamed back from the surface are of a bloody Zoe standing over the corpses of her crewmates. (Just because I'd liked the film to have had a bit more bite than it did!)


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## Fiberglass Cyborg (Sep 25, 2021)

Mon0Zer0 said:


> Agree.
> 
> For me it's the Ewan McGregor / Michael Bay flop "The Island"



Aye! Intriguing set-up in the first 45 minutes or so, could have turned into a decent psychological thriller. Instead, the whole of the rest of the film was "World's Dumbest Action Sequence."

I have a certain amount of affection for "Jupiter Rising," but I really, really wish the plot wasn't just "Dogboy rescues the princess over and over again." Imagine if they'd used that fantastically baroque SF setting but shown Mila Kunis's character actually, like, do something? Use her new-found status, find allies and actively try to make a difference, instead of being a passive pawn in other people's plans.


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## paranoid marvin (Sep 26, 2021)

Mon0Zer0 said:


> Agree.
> 
> For me it's the Ewan McGregor / Michael Bay flop "The Island"




I'm still undecided on The Island. When I watched it, I had no idea of the storyline, so it was a genuine shock when I saw what was really happening. I also liked the way that Ewan McGregor's 'human' character was totally different to his kinder more sympathetic island-self.

Perhaps if it had been made into a HBO serial and had more time to develop. it may have helped.


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## paranoid marvin (Sep 26, 2021)

AnRoinnUltra said:


> Stowaway
> Thought it had a serious moral dilemma but sorta went a bit too easy with it.
> Changes:
> A stowaway is found and the captain (Marina) instantly makes an executive decision to kill him ...just a little too easily. David and Zoe are freaked, figure they could be next, and plot to give it to Marina in the neck once a pre Mars McGuffin task involving all the crew is completed. Marina smells a rat and stalls the task till the very last minute, and kills David, but Zoe manages to get hold of a heavy object and bludgeons the captain to death. The first images beamed back from the surface are of a bloody Zoe standing over the corpses of her crewmates. (Just because I'd liked the film to have had a bit more bite than it did!)




Yes, I think this goes for many of the mid-pandemic, low budget, made-for-tv/Netflix films. It has a solid premise, starts off well and then weakens as the movie progresses. I've seen this quite a number of times with movies made in the last couple of years including Anti-Life/Breach with Bruce Willis.


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## paranoid marvin (Sep 26, 2021)

.matthew. said:


> The entire Star Wars franchise after the original trilogy




I'm of the opinion now that I'll never watch the first 3 (Phantom Menace - Revenge of the Sith) again. The acting and dialogue and storylines, particularly in PM and AOTC is terrible beyond belief for such a huge budget and once-great director. Whilst things are much improved for Sith, the movie cannot stand alone without it's prequels, so they are off the radar for any re-watches.

The final 3 movies are much improved, probably in part to the change of overall control and the fact that the original actors are involved. But I'm coming to the conclusion that the series doesn't need those extra episodes; I don't need to see my heroes grow old, have problems with their kids and die. I want to remember Han, Leia, Chewy, Lando and Luke as they were in the original trio.

As an addition though, I would still include Rogue One, because it feels like it is a part of the original series of movies. It's got great action, is funny, is consistent with the original movies and is exactly the kind of movie that Lucas would have made 30 years ago when he was in his pomp.

After going to the movies to see the prequels and feeling devastated about just how bad they were, I went to see Rogue One knowing virtually nothing about it and having no expectations that it would be any good. I couldn't believe just how great a movie it was and how it felt just like a proper Star Wars movie should. Even the CGI additions of Leia and Tarkin, which could have gone disastrously wrong, were done just right as to make the characters believable that it was Carrie and Peter in their original roles.


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## paranoid marvin (Sep 26, 2021)

HareBrain said:


> _Titanic_. Interesting ship-board drama ruined by totally unnecessary calamity.




It seemed to go down well at the cinema?


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## AnRoinnUltra (Sep 26, 2021)

paranoid marvin said:


> Yes, I think this goes for many of the mid-pandemic, low budget, made-for-tv/Netflix films. It has a solid premise, starts off well and then weakens as the movie progresses. I've seen this quite a number of times with movies made in the last couple of years including Anti-Life/Breach with Bruce Willis.


It's a pity -I thought 'The Midnight Sky' had the same problem; there again, it's great to see Sci-Fi stuff get made, and if anyone outside the forum asks ...they were all pure class from start to finish


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## BAYLOR (Sep 27, 2021)

paranoid marvin said:


> Event Horizon. Had the potential to be a brilliant film, but all went a bit silly.



Ive seen it several times, I wouldn't change a thing.


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## BAYLOR (Sep 27, 2021)

HareBrain said:


> _Titanic_. Interesting ship-board drama ruined by totally unnecessary calamity.



The movie ran longer than it actually took the Titanic to sink. The film also cost more to make than the ship.


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## BAYLOR (Sep 27, 2021)

.matthew. said:


> The entire Star Wars franchise after the original trilogy



According to the theory of multiverses,  there is a universe  where the prequels are actually good films and, Jar Jar Binks is a much  beloved cinema character .


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## KiraAnn (Sep 27, 2021)

I would nominate Battlestar Galactica, whether the old 70’s series or the more recent remake. There was so much that could have been done with the original premise.


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## alexvss (Sep 27, 2021)

paranoid marvin said:


> Event Horizon. Had the potential to be a brilliant film, but all went a bit silly.


@Mon0Zer0 
FWIW, Paul WS Anderson produced a movie called *Pandorum* years later. I like to call this movie "Event Horizon done right".


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## .matthew. (Sep 27, 2021)

KiraAnn said:


> I would nominate Battlestar Galactica, whether the old 70’s series or the more recent remake. There was so much that could have been done with the original premise.


Yes. I loved the premise but the remake at the least had one of the dumbest plots I've ever seen.


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## BAYLOR (Sep 27, 2021)

.matthew. said:


> Yes. I loved the premise but the remake at the least had one of the dumbest plots I've ever seen.



The original Galactica was not a very good tv show, and at the time too expense to produce. The cite at that time didn't think too much of either and at television  award show the only member  of the cast  to show up was the Chimpanzee  that played Daggit.

The Ron Moore reboot was  far better.


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## paranoid marvin (Sep 27, 2021)

BAYLOR said:


> Ive seen it several times, I wouldn't change a thing.




Fair enough, there are lots of people who would agree with this sentiment.


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## Mon0Zer0 (Sep 27, 2021)

BAYLOR said:


> The original Galactica was not a very good tv show, and at the time too expense to produce. The cite at that time didn't think too much of either and at television  award show the only member  of the cast  to show up was the Chimpanzee  that played Daggit.
> 
> The Ron Moore reboot was  far better.



Controversially, it seems, I think the original was better.

Ron Moore's started off well but soon came off the rails under the weight of its own portentousness. Technically, it's CGI was more realistic, it took the source material more seriously - but it was a bit drab.

Pretty much every character in the original had more personality, especially Baltar. Yes it was campy and under budgeted - it certainly wasn't shakespeare - but dammit if it wasn't fun. The music was better, the cylons were far better. It had colour and imagination. The ship designs couldn't be beat! The sound design was iconic! For a cheap star wars cash in meant for kids, it's had a bigger impact than rebooted BSG.

I don't think it's true to say the cast didn't think much of it, certainly not later. Richard Hatch wrote several BSG books and was always trying to get a new series off the ground up until his death, iirc.  I stan Lorne Greene as Adama, too, although Gaff was pretty good, too. Patrick Macnee as the imperious leader and even Doctor Smith himself hamming it up for Lucifer. Fantastic.

One thing I think going for original BSG is the writing, which is surprisingly literate. If you think of it not as a realistic attempt to portray space travel, but instead as a classical greek play set in space - the odyssey in space - I think BSG TOS wins hands down.


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## BAYLOR (Sep 27, 2021)

Mon0Zer0 said:


> Controversially, it seems, I think the original was better.
> 
> Ron Moore's started off well but soon came off the rails under the weight of its own portentousness. Technically, it's CGI was more realistic, it took the source material more seriously - but it was a bit drab.
> 
> ...



Under budgeted ? The original  cost one million per episode, thats alot in 1970' s money.   it's ratings numbers were  decent but in the end, not enough to justify keeping in on the air. Originally,  it was supposed to be  miniseries with the title* Starworlds* Lost but the network shoved it in favor of going full tv series*.  *Interestingly , the agroships  were props and sets reused  from the 1972 Douglas Trumbel  film *Silent Running.  * The *Galactica  1980* revival was definitely under budgeted and the network  put other impossible constraint on the show,  mandating  that show had to be educational and worse , most of the original cast didn't want to come back. It had nowhere to go and and it was lousy.   Richard hatch tried to get a revival  of the original  going in the 1990's and even did short pilot film for it for proposed series , but the networks were  not interested and, even if they were, and it got made, it wouldn't have likely lasted a full season.  


In the Ron Moore revival Richard got critical alarm as Tom Zarek.   I prefer the Reboot to the original 

Also there has been about theatrical version of Battlestar Galactica , baed off the original concept , That would actually work verynie but so far nothings happened on that front .  And there also talk about another Galactica series but so far nothing.


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## Mon0Zer0 (Sep 27, 2021)

BAYLOR said:


> Under budgeted ? The original  cost one million per episode, thats alot in 1970' s money.   it's ratings numbers were  decent but in the end, not enough to justify keeping in on the air. Originally,  it was supposed to be  miniseries with the title* Starworlds* Lost but the network shoved it in favor of going full tv series*.  *Interestingly , the agroships  were props and sets reused  from the 1972 Douglas Trumbel  film *Silent Running.  * The *Galactica  1980* revival was definitely under budgeted and the network  put other impossible constraint on the show,  mandating  that show had to be educational and worse , most of the original cast didn't want to come back. It had nowhere to go and and it was lousy.   Richard hatch tried to get a revival  of the original  going in the 1990's and even did short pilot film for it for proposed series , but the networks were  not interested and, even if they were, and it got made, it wouldn't have likely lasted a full season.
> 
> 
> In the Ron Moore revival Richard got critical alarm as Tom Zarek.   I prefer the Reboot to the original
> ...



Under budgeted for what they would have needed to do it properly. Yes, expensive - agree, but still not enough!

It would have been better as a miniseries, or even as a series of movies. There are definitely filler episodes. 

Galactica 80 was trash. No arguments there! A real embarrassment. 

One of the interesting things is that, at conventions you will almost always see a cylon or someone as a G1 BSG character, but almost never G2, which I think speaks to its place in culture.  

I'd enjoy a movie, very much so.


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## BAYLOR (Sep 27, 2021)

Mon0Zer0 said:


> Under budgeted for what they would have needed to do it properly. Yes, expensive - agree, but still not enough!
> 
> It would have been better as a miniseries, or even as a series of movies. There are definitely filler episodes.
> 
> ...



Im thinking that the miniseries route and TV movies afterward would have been the  better idea . It would given them time improve the overall writing and come up with better stories. I would have definitely gotten rid of Daggit. 

As what kind of Earth they would arrived at. Why not the Earth of Buck Roger in the 25th century?  Actually someone wrote a piece fan fiction in which that happen. It was quite good , I would like to seen is as a film .   

One more not on Galatica 1980. Do you rmeber in the fist episodes  when Dr Zee showed them a Computer  simulation of what would happen if the Cylons found Earth? They used footage from the 1974 film *Earhquake* and just added  the Cylon Fighters ,  They actually didn't do a bad job with that.


As jaded as I am , I have to admit a big screen Galactica feature film could be alot of fun.  could be alot fun of fun.


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## JunkMonkey (Sep 27, 2021)

paranoid marvin said:


> I'm still undecided on The Island. When I watched it, I had no idea of the storyline, so it was a genuine shock when I saw what was really happening. I also liked the way that Ewan McGregor's 'human' character was totally different to his kinder more sympathetic island-self.
> 
> Perhaps if it had been made into a HBO serial and had more time to develop. it may have helped.




Not sure if this is  mentioned later in the thread but the "original" - they settled out of court -  Parts: The Clonus Horror wasn't bad for a low budget film of its era. 









						Parts: The Clonus Horror - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Toby Frost (Oct 7, 2021)

I think Paul Verhoeven did a good job of making an entertaining film out of the dreary tract that is _Starship Troopers_.

_Falling Down_ had a pretty interesting premise, but didn't choose its targets very well and eventually became "Oh, he was a loony anyway". There's an obscure British thriller called _A Lonely Place to Die_ that has a great premise: a group of mountaineers find a girl in the Scottish wilderness who has obviously been kidnapped, and try to bring her to safety. The second half introduces gunfights, Serbian gangsters and a weird pagan festival, and is much weaker than the first part. I'd like to see that remade.


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## JunkMonkey (Oct 7, 2021)

alexvss said:


> @Mon0Zer0
> FWIW, Paul WS Anderson produced a movie called *Pandorum* years later. I like to call this movie "Event Horizon done right".



About the only film with his name on worth watching.


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## KiraAnn (Oct 9, 2021)

Re Battlestar Galactica, and a bit off topic perhaps, does anyone except me think that the front end of Toyotas in the past few years look like Cylon heads?


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## Toby Frost (Oct 9, 2021)

How about *Goliath Awaits*? With a modern budget it could be really good (although you might need a better explanation of why the people have survived at the bottom of the sea for so long).


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## BAYLOR (Oct 11, 2021)

Toby Frost said:


> How about *Goliath Awaits*? With a modern budget it could be really good (although you might need a better explanation of why the people have survived at the bottom of the sea for so long).



Not possible.


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## Toby Frost (Oct 11, 2021)

Well, it's basically a nonsense premise, but aliens could have kept them there or something. Given that Hollywood made a multi-million dollar film based on the game "Battleships", I can't see why it couldn't be made to "work". With a story like that, atmosphere counts for a lot.


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