# Subtitles, anyone?



## BookStop (Sep 8, 2006)

Which films are worth the subtitles?

Run, Lola, Run in German
Amelie in French


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## Winters_Sorrow (Sep 8, 2006)

Battle Royale in Japanese
Save the Green Planet in Korean

A better question could be which movies are better dubbed?


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## j d worthington (Sep 8, 2006)

Sorry... the list of films I'd give that are worth the subtitles is immense (I've been exposed to massive amounts of foreign cinema, having been married to a film major.)

But some of those I'd suggest would be:

*Last Year at Marienbad*
*Cries and Whispers*
*The Seventh Sign*
*Vampyr*
*Day of Wrath*
anything by Fritz Lang (that's subtitled; before he came to Hollywood)
nearly anything by Akira Kurosawa
*Solaris* (Andrei Tarkovsky)
*La Belle et le Bete*......

Well, you get the picture (so to speak....)

Oh, and I strongly suggest watching *Ringu*, *Dark Water*, *Ju-On*, and *Uzumaki* in the original Japanese... subtleties here are important, and make the film much, much more eerie ... no "in your face" horror, but a genuine feeling of reality crumbling and the void encroaching. The Japanese are, frankly, kicking our butts when it comes to the supernatural tale on film.... Also *Cronos*, *The Devil's Backbone*, and *Abre los ojos* (remade as *Vanilla Sky*... the original is, IMO, much more powerful).


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## Mouse (Sep 8, 2006)

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Better with subtitles.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Sep 8, 2006)

j. d. worthington said:
			
		

> *La Belle et le Bete*



That one is definitely worth it.  However, I _would_ like to see it dubbed (if it were done well).  It's so stunning visually (except for the Beast ... his mask or make-up or whatever it is may have been amazing at the time, but it looks tacky now) that I hate pulling my eyes away to read the subtitles.

Also, with these things I always wonder if the original dialogue might have been considerably better than the subtitles are.  The people who provide the subtitles may provide competent literal translations, but they don't seem to be exactly artistic.


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## BookStop (Sep 8, 2006)

Oh - I almost forgot The Blind Swordsman - Zatoichi (it's not your run of the mill kung-fu, sword movie)


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## j d worthington (Sep 8, 2006)

Teresa Edgerton said:
			
		

> Also, with these things I always wonder if the original dialogue might have been considerably better than the subtitles are. The people who provide the subtitles may provide competent literal translations, but they don't seem to be exactly artistic.


 
That's a valid point, yes. It depends on how well the subtitles themselves are done. For example, the subtitling on *Spirited Away* seemed to actually try to capture some of the nuances, from what I could gather; the same with several other films (*Marienbad* being one)... others are, as you say, rather flat. So that's something to keep in mind, as well.


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## Marky Lazer (Sep 8, 2006)

Der Untergang.


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## Shoegaze99 (Sep 8, 2006)

BookStop said:
			
		

> Which films are worth the subtitles?


The question seems to imply that subtitles are an 'issue' of sort requiring an extra good film to sit through.

_Any _film worth watching is worth subtitles, assuming you don't speak the language the film was shot in.

And if a film was shot in a language other than English, it's subtitles and ONLY subtitles. No dubbed versions, thanks.


Teresa: Subtitle quality can vary wildly, even on the same film. I've seen *Seven Samurai* in no less than three different translations, for instance, and they were markedly different. One was nearly unwatchable they were so bad, the other two quite good but in different ways (the Criterion DVD release and a print a local theater showed). Same with a lot of Kurosawa, actually. Folks who are really into foreign language cinema keep a close eye on who did the translations; some folks/'houses' are better than others.


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## ravenus (Sep 9, 2006)

The Hong Kong chop-socky releases of the 70's and 80's worked a lot better with dubbing. I could never forget the scene in Shaolin Temple where a warlord asks an old monk "_Basturd! Wanna fight?_"


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## the smiling weirwood (Sep 9, 2006)

La Dolce Vita....I just finished watching it. It is the only thing that has made me want to commit suicide.


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## Thadlerian (Sep 10, 2006)

Mononoke Hime (Princess Mononoke)
But make sure it's *subtitles*, not *dubtitles*!

The difference: Subtitles are translations, dubtitles are simply the dub put in text. Watching Mononoke Hime in Japanese with English dubtitles is an embarrassing experience... text appearing when no-one is speaking...

Neil Gaiman totally wrecked the script of Mononoke Hime, which is part of the reason for me holding a certain grudge against the man. My DVD contains only dubtitles, not the direct translations in the area 1 version... an excellent incentive for me to try to learn Japanese


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## Jason_Taverner (Sep 10, 2006)

I hate dubbed always go for subtitles with one exception the dub in nightwatch was excellent


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## ray gower (Sep 11, 2006)

Try The Seven Samurai.

Dub that and the audience would be laughing too hard to take the film seriously


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## Nesacat (Sep 11, 2006)

City of Lost Children
Nang Nak
Dark Water


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## Culhwch (Sep 11, 2006)

Marky Lazer said:
			
		

> Der Untergang.


 
Definitely. _Downfall_ was close to the best film I saw last year. Also _A Very Long Engagement_, which I think is a far better film than _Amelie_. I don't think I got past the first fifteen minutes of _Amelie_....


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## the smiling weirwood (Sep 11, 2006)

Oh yes! A Very Long Engagement is simply beautiful. I loved it.


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## jackokent (Sep 11, 2006)

The visitors


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## ScottSF (Sep 12, 2006)

Jason_Taverner said:
			
		

> I hate dubbed always go for subtitles



Me too.  I hardly even notice subtitles anymore; it's almost as if I hear them speaking English in my head.  The only time subtitles are ever a problem is if I'm sitting close in a theater, then I gotta move my whole head to read.

Some of my favorite non-English movies are: The Vertical Ray of Sunlight, City of Lost Chilren, Leolo (not for children or those easily disturbed) and Dreams.


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## littlemissattitude (Sep 12, 2006)

_Cinema Paradiso_.


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## Sathai (May 2, 2007)

I can't stand dubbing, give me subtitles any day.  

My favorite is Amelie, love that movie.


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## HardScienceFan (May 2, 2007)

*sigh*
Here I go again

Tom Tykwerie Prinzessin und der Krieger
"Spain":Los Amantes del circulo polar 
tesis(Horrorthriller)
Mar Adentro
_featuring Vincent Cassell_
La Haine
Le pacte des loups
_french cinema verite:_
Etre et Avoir
Ressources Humaines


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## Nikitta (May 2, 2007)

Shoegaze99 said:


> The question seems to imply that subtitles are an 'issue' of sort requiring an extra good film to sit through.
> 
> _Any _film worth watching is worth subtitles, assuming you don't speak the language the film was shot in.
> 
> And if a film was shot in a language other than English, it's subtitles and ONLY subtitles. No dubbed versions, thanks.


 
I agree 100%, but I imagine this mostly to be an issue for people who have English as their native language, since those of us who don't, grew up with movies in English being subtitled, so subtitles are completely normal for us.

I don't expect this to count for people from countries like Germany where they choose to dub the movies, though.

It would be interesting to hear input from others on this to hear if I'm completely off the mark. It's just how I imagine it to be.


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## HardScienceFan (May 2, 2007)

I dislike Dutch movies.
So from an early age,I've been used to subtitles,starting with Batman, Thunderbirds,Star Trek.
Dubbing is horrible
John Wayne: Es gibt Indianer in Diesen Hugeln,Genosse.
"There's indians in them thar hills,pardner"


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## chrispenycate (May 2, 2007)

Just for the sake of discussion; you have probably not seen a non-dubbed film in ten years. Hollywood ADOs all its films, in the original American, because getting good sound quality at the shoot is not always possible. Besides, it's cheaper.
And frequently the dialogue is changed at the editing phase.
The difference is that the diector oversees the process, and it is generally the original actor who is trying to duplicate the emotions he was attempting to project at the original take.
European films, they don't necessarily even speak the same language on the set; they know it's all going to be redone.

A film well adapted (not merely translated) and well dubbed into a foreign language (yes, it can be done. I don't get to do it very often, because of budgetary considerations; doing it right takes _time_ - time for the voiceover artist to absorb the emotion, the rhythm of his character, to make the text part of the action, rather than a label stuck on anyhow. And time is money) has only one slight disadvantage; it is not the film that the director intended. It can, however, carry the same message, and be a very good film in its own right.

Subtitling is cheap, but don't believe what they're putting up on the screen is an accurate translation. It could be; they don't have the lip-sync limitations we labour under, but then, during high density dialogue, it would distract from the action. So subtitling is frequently out of sync with the action of a film, and quantities of the dialogue are not transmitted at all. So, unless you can more or less follow the VO (sorry, "vérsion originelle" , I can't even think what it was in english) you're not seeing the same film as the director intended, either, though you are at least seeing it with the same actors.

Which doesn't change anything for the dubs of a feature film done in three days with five actors doing all the voices for a local television station; these are an abomination unto the muse of the seventh art, and should be punished with something lingering and preferably non-fatal, so the perpetrator can suffer many years of watching "terminator" movies dubbed into spanish or serbo-croat. 
But it does mean that, without a resonable knowledge of the language in which a film was shot, you're not reading the book.
You're looking at the pictures.


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## Nikitta (May 2, 2007)

HardScienceFan said:


> Dubbing is horrible
> John Wayne: Es gibt Indianer in Diesen Hugeln,Genosse.
> "There's indians in them thar hills,pardner"


 
Er Staadt en eland op je hooft!

(Come on! It's not often I have an excuse to use the only Duth sentence I know!  I'm not sure I got it 100% right either)

I remember randomly flipping through channels, being happy to find the Simpsons on, until Marge opened her mouth - and spoke German (it seems that I had accidentally flipped past a German TV-station). Just thinking about it makes me cringe.

I also remember going to Germany with my school class and being thrilled when we were taken to watch Die Hard. The joy completely disappeared the moment one of the actors opened their mouth.

Incidentially: "You're stupid and your feet smell like cheese" is almost the only thing I can say in German. I just felt like mentioning that.


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## Nikitta (May 2, 2007)

chrispenycate said:


> Subtitling is cheap, but don't believe what they're putting up on the screen is an accurate translation.


 
I know. Don't get me started talking about cringe-worthy subtitles. It can be *really* bad and I have on occasion wondered what on earth the translator has been smoking.

However, I prefer badly translated subtitles to badly translated dubbing any day as the tone of voice..etc... remains intact as the original actor made it and that means something for experiencing the movie.


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## iansales (May 2, 2007)

Anthony Burgess in one of his books tells of a classic subtitling mistake. It's in a French-subtitled version of an American WWII movie. The GI is standing there when a panzer comes over the brow of a hill. He shouts, "Tanks!" 

The subtitle reads, "Merci!"

I also saw an episode of M*A*S*H once in which the phrase "son of a bitch" was translated in the Arabic subtitle as "sun of the beach".


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## that old guy (May 2, 2007)

Das Boot, in German. The dubbed version is horrible.


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## Joel007 (May 2, 2007)

Dubbing quite often turns out horribly. I watched a French Star Trek TNG once. Data had a mechanoid voice, which defeated the whole point of being an android. 
I tend to enjoy subtitles over dubbing. The Passion of the Christ, Fearless, Kung Fu Hustle


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## Nikitta (May 2, 2007)

iansales said:


> Anthony Burgess in one of his books tells of a classic subtitling mistake. It's in a French-subtitled version of an American WWII movie. The GI is standing there when a panzer comes over the brow of a hill. He shouts, "Tanks!"
> 
> The subtitle reads, "Merci!"


 
Oh dear!

I once saw an episode of the Simpsons where Marge asks Homer "Why do you think I married you?" and Homer replies "Because I knocked you up?". In the Danish subtitles, that reply became "Because I hit you?"


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## Connavar (May 2, 2007)

Yeah a big problem with subtitles is that they usually translate wrong.  You know that cause you dont need an english movie with subtitles cause it only makes you see how bad the swedes translate english to swedish in my case.


Otherwise subtitles are so natural to me cause i watch alot Asian movies Korean cinema being my fav.  Even Bollywood movies had subtitles these days and they are a tradition for my people.  Me i usually smile at the cheesy stories and lines and enjoy the songs.


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## HardScienceFan (May 2, 2007)

Thanks,I'd forgotten that.You see,subtitling is an art in itself.Especially hard are expressions,proverbs,culturally specific references,and puns.I've seen some right clankers made in those departments.
E.G.
Isaac Asimov,or Willy Ley, or John Gribbin,are well-known popularizers of
science in Anglophonic countries.However,the correct translation of 'popularization' in French is "vulgarisation",which suggest something entirely different to Anglophones!
I remember one instance of some subtitler struggling horrifically with 'close,but no cigar'.


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## Sathai (May 3, 2007)

Nikitta said:


> However, I prefer badly translated subtitles to badly translated dubbing any day as the tone of voice..etc... remains intact as the original actor made it and that means something for experiencing the movie.


 
I agree. I feel I get more from the movie when I can here the actor's real voice and expression.


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## Quokka (May 3, 2007)

Usually prefer subtitles, except of course _Hercules Returns_, best case of dubbing bar none


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## Connavar (May 3, 2007)

Bad dubbing can be fun you know like the dubbing in HK movies where people in Jackie Chan movies sound like they are from texas


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## chrispenycate (May 3, 2007)

And children's programs? Are children expected to remain ignorant that furriners make films until they've learnt to read, or speak foreign (admittedly, I've conversed with children who learnt to speak english from Cartoon network or equivalent (which makes for an interesting, if specialised, vocabulary) but would you deny parents in non-english speaking countries the succor of gluing infant noses to glass screens full of Scooby-doo, or manga, or whatever (how did my generation survive? We didn't have a television in the house until I was reading adult books, and then wa were allowed to watch an hour a week. How parents must have suffered)
Besides, actors love doing cartoons. Watching a member of the Royal Shakespeare Company putting on a silly voice for an unbelievable character is quite an experience.


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## Nikitta (May 3, 2007)

chrispenycate said:


> And children's programs?


 
I only talked about what I prefer for myself. Other people can of course have other preferences and should choose according to those, regardless of my opinion. I wouldn't want it any other way. I always think that goes without saying.

For myself, I prefer subtitles to dubbing, though a dubbing done so well that I won't notice that it's a dubbing might be an exception. I just don't know of any.


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## Joel007 (May 3, 2007)

Monty Python's dubbing for the hard of hearing?


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## iansales (May 3, 2007)

I used to get a French TV channel in the Middle East - TV5. It broadcast French films with French subtitles.

I also had to be careful when buying VCDs. The copy of *Anna and the King* I bought only had Arabic subtitles... and half the film's dialogue is in Thai. Never did figure out what the movie was about...


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