# A medieval world without iron or steel.



## JoanDrake (Oct 18, 2013)

I know I'm supposed to do these things myself but I sort of don't know just where to begin.

In the first place, is a world where iron is rare even possible? I don't see why, it could all be buried deep in the core

But in the main second, how would you replace it? I intend to have them discover carbon fiber tech in medieval times. Is that just silly or is it a remote possibility?

Might someone direct me to a helpful book on steel or carbon fibers, interpretable by the non-chemist?


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## chrispenycate (Oct 18, 2013)

I suspect biotech and ceramics. The reason iron so revolutionised things when it took over from bronze was its relative cheapness (tin's hard to come by) and wide availability. Without large hematite reserves – say if your planet had a smaller moon, so the minerals weren't getting stirred up so well, and – it seems quite likely that bacteria concentrated the ore in certain regions. Without that effect it might be too difficult finding rich enough beds to make refining economically interesting; pig iron's not all that pretty.

But even after the Roman Empire had made it quite clear here that iron was tops, the majority of the tools, the majority of the weapons, were wood, rope stone and bone. Metal was too expensive for anyone but the nobles; churls might have metal daggers and spear points, but armour will be leather, shields wood.

Carbon fibre isn't all that good. It's very light for its strength, but it won't take a decent edge, and it wears. Without protecting it (say with obsidian shards along the edge) it's not really got any advantages over a wooden sword, or lance. So probably put the effort into breeding trees with particular characteristics; agriculture is one of the earliest quasi-scientific disciplines, after all. And try and find creatures with particularly hard, sharpenable teeth, or shells, or bones for the contact surfaces, or armour. All the tradition is there, just develop it. When the Mongol hordes swept in, overwhelming every armed force they came in contact with, their principal weapon was the compound bow, which involved no blacksmithing, just laminating various products such as horn, bone and sinew easily available to nomad herders.

The other metal substitute is ceramic. Glass and pottery have been round a long time, much longer than history. We tend to think of them as fragile, shatterable, but we can now produce bullet-proof, impact resisting glass; if we hadn't moved onto smiths and had kept developing earthenware, who can say where ceramic technology would have gone? Not malleable and ductile, for certain; it would always disintegrate rather than denting, but a glittering crystal sword or diamond lance tips might be quite an impressive image in breaking up a peasant's revolt. Laminated ceramic, wood and leather armour could be lighter than its steel equivalent, for the same protection (thicker and clumsier, though).

And everybody could have a glass dagger for eating, and it wouldn't tend to rust.


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## Culhwch (Oct 18, 2013)

Can't help you with the science, but sounds a lot like Kelewan in Raymond Fiest's (and Janny Wurts') Riftwar books. They used a light but very hard wood as substitute. More here: Kelewan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Obviously very different to the carbon fiber angle, though.


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## HareBrain (Oct 18, 2013)

Bronze?

What aspect of medieval society or technology required iron in particular?


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## thaddeus6th (Oct 18, 2013)

Some good answers already, and I'd add (more generally) that ancient tech can sometimes be surprisingly advanced. One ancient civilisation (Greek, I think) had a temple with magical opening doors. In truth, when you stood in front of it the paving stones were hydraulic, and operated a system that opened the heavy stone doors when sufficient weight was placed on the pressure pads/stones.

Similarly, ancient Greece had both steam power and railways. The problem was they used steam power for toys, and the railways were drawn by oxen. The Romans used concrete to build much of the Colosseum, which sounds ridiculous but is entirely true.

Glass/wood do sound like interesting alternatives.


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## Karn Maeshalanadae (Oct 18, 2013)

Especially wood. And with things like wood, you might want to go with ebony species, particularly for blunt weaponry and tools like hammers. Ebony is extremely dense, which makes it both heavy and very, very hard without being brittle. I would steer clear of diamond, however, for anything beyond, perhaps, spear points-just because diamond is very hard doesn't mean it's practical. It's also very brittle, and will shatter upon force from steel and such equivalents.


Ceramics, Chris has a point to. True, modern day ceramic really can't be used for much beyond pottery, but you could mix and match-perhaps something in your world's clay could increase its strength. Ceramic also has one very nice feature-it holds heat very well. Perhaps not as well as cast iron, but for the average man, you could have a ceramic hearth for cooking and perhaps ceramic pans.


Armor can be another issue. The Mythbusters actually proved that paper, in enough layers, can actually provide some decent protection. The trouble there is, too many layers for practical use. It was very thick and clumsy. I would probably stay away from wood, however, at least, for long, single-piece plates. The best you could do with wood would probably be scale mail. Again, you can alleviate this problem by having an indigenous species with thick, tough hides that are able to withstand blows and piercings well.


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## The Judge (Oct 18, 2013)

We already have ceramic knives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_knife and though they're too fragile for eg heavy chopping, they can take a good edge and could certainly be useful in a fight, as long as no one is wearing armour or the like.

Bronze is too soft to hold a really good cutting edge, so not so good for knives -- even during the Bronze Age, cutting implements still tended to be made from stone.

As for armour, pangolin scales have been used, though I don't know how effective they are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Pangolin_scales.JPG


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## Gramm838 (Oct 18, 2013)

Stuff in the ground is always rare if it hasn't/can't be found!

If the middle ages were a time without steel or iron, they'd be the bronze age, surely?


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## Karn Maeshalanadae (Oct 18, 2013)

What she wants, Gramm, is an alternative technological advancement to iron past the bronze age.


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## Mirannan (Oct 18, 2013)

Wood might be usable in the form of plywood; glues available to the Middle Ages were quite good enough for this purpose even leaving aside the possibility of using a rubber-based cement for the laminating.

After all, fighter-bombers were made out of the stuff and were arguably the best combat aircraft in use during WWII - until the ME262, perhaps. Extra hardness might be achievable by putting ceramic plates (or needles, perhaps) between the wood layers. Again, we know that ceramic reinforcement of armour works - witness the M1A1 tank!

I can see, quite easily, plate armour made of plywood. Use the right materials and it would probably be quite effective. Especially if the opposition doesn't have iron or steel weapons to cut through it.


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## Karn Maeshalanadae (Oct 19, 2013)

The thing is, though, is that wood is not really as easily shaped as metals are, and as a result, it would be awkward and clumsy to use for armor.


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## Mirannan (Oct 19, 2013)

Karn Maeshalanadae said:


> The thing is, though, is that wood is not really as easily shaped as metals are, and as a result, it would be awkward and clumsy to use for armor.



Plywood is. All it really needs is steam heat. I'm no armourer or blacksmith, but I believe that shaping steel into armour plates (or items of similar complexity) requires a good deal of heat - red hot, probably.

One more point about plywood is that (again IIRC, haven't checked) it's stronger than steel weight for weight. Plywood plate would likely be thicker than steel - but that isn't really much of a problem if it's well shaped.


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## Karn Maeshalanadae (Oct 19, 2013)

It's not just heat that is needed to shape metal, but the pounding it out and tempering. Besides that, I honestly don't think steam heat would be hot enough.


It's just a lot easier for one to create a new species of creature that has thick, strong hides to work with. Leather is a lot easier to work with than wood as far as malleability goes.


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## Mirannan (Oct 19, 2013)

Karn Maeshalanadae said:


> It's not just heat that is needed to shape metal, but the pounding it out and tempering. Besides that, I honestly don't think steam heat would be hot enough.
> 
> 
> It's just a lot easier for one to create a new species of creature that has thick, strong hides to work with. Leather is a lot easier to work with than wood as far as malleability goes.



Well, AFAIK steam heat is what was used to shape parts for Mosquito fighter-bombers, so...

As for the bit about hide, well maybe but really thick, strong hide is perhaps worse to work with than wood or metal. Cuir bouli (boiled leather) is a fairly good armour material to work with, even when it's made from the normal cow or horse hide; I assume that applying that process to something like rhino or elephant (or maybe mammoth or baluchitherium) hide would produce something pretty damn strong.


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## thaddeus6th (Oct 19, 2013)

What about baleen? I know little about it, but apparently it (whale bones, I think) was used as armour around the time that boiled leather/chainmail began to be surpassed by plate armour.


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## Brian G Turner (Oct 19, 2013)

If you're writing about a world without iron or steel, then I'd presume that you're effectively writing about the Bronze Age. I would imagine little difference between a high Bronze Age society and a high mediaeval society. 

What you need to remember about the mediaeval period is that it's part of a European recovery to "normal civilised living" after the "Dark Ages".

In terms of everyday living, I would expect little difference for rural peoples between the two periods.

Also, some forms of bronze can easily rival steel for weapons and armour - the caveat is that iron is more common.

A big concern would be justifying why a planet would be rich in certain metals, yet rare in elements (such as iron) which are otherwise relatively common in the universe.


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## Mirannan (Oct 19, 2013)

thaddeus6th said:


> What about baleen? I know little about it, but apparently it (whale bones, I think) was used as armour around the time that boiled leather/chainmail began to be surpassed by plate armour.



Maybe. Ivory is another possibility but obviously the types of armour would be limited; scale mail perhaps might be the best one could do.


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## Mirannan (Oct 19, 2013)

I said:


> If you're writing about a world without iron or steel, then I'd presume that you're effectively writing about the Bronze Age. I would imagine little difference between a high Bronze Age society and a high mediaeval society.
> 
> What you need to remember about the mediaeval period is that it's part of a European recovery to "normal civilised living" after the "Dark Ages".
> 
> ...



One possibility might be that differentiation (think that's the word) had gone further than on Earth. Earth has a really huge amount of iron, but the vast bulk of it is completely inaccessible because it's 3000+ miles down, in the core.

This would also mean less of all the other metals, probably.

Another possible reason for iron and steel not to be in use is an even greater lack of experience with it than on the real Earth. Early experience with working iron was garnered by using iron meteorites; maybe the fictional planet is in a solar system with less orbital junk?


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## Velocius quam lucem (Oct 19, 2013)

JoanDrake said:


> In the first place, is a world where iron is rare even possible? I don't see why, it could all be buried deep in the core



I will give an answer to this part; Forgive me if it isn't all that helpful. As most of us know, ninety seven percent of the elements we find in the periodic table come from the death of stars. Only stars more than 8 times the mass of the sun can fuse elements up to iron. Once the star has fused up to iron, it can contract no longer, the core becomes heavy and collapses under its own weight, the star implodes, bounces off itself and explodes, this is called a supernova. As the stars explodes it releases all the elements its made during its lifespan out into space. 

Some heavier elements, like gold and lead, are actually created as the star explodes, during the actual explosion.

So Iron is quite abundant in the galaxy/universe - relatively speaking. Carbon is actually a lot more common. (Abundance of elements) Our sun will make Carbon right before the final "Red Giant" phase at the end of its life. 


Perhaps you could go in the direction of diamond? (An - albeit rare - allotrope of carbon)

Here are a few links that may help: Earth's crust, and Feldspar


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## chrispenycate (Oct 20, 2013)

Sighs. I suppose it was me that started us off on this martial course. What else should we be looking at in terms of inconveniences?

Horseshoes (and horseshoe nails) for a start. So much a part of a smith's work that he was considered as a farrier anywhere outside cities. I can't think of a convenient alternative, so horses would probably never be shod, and roads wouldn't be stone surfaced, or else equine traffic would be much reduced. Donkeys and oxen for freight, but not the same chivalrous upper class. Scythes, sickles – we need them. I suppose glass, but hit a rock – and after you've ploughed – assuming you can plough; getting a decent ploughshare without iron is complicated. Either a primitive 'wooden stick scraping the dirt (not anything like as effective as a true blade breaking up the soil), a bronze blade (too expensive, and wears too fast) or maybe ceramic, but I'm not that convinced) and the tendency to shatter – bone or antler seem too soft, won't hold an edge againstthat sort of work.

I'm wondering if you could cut grain with a leather whip; be tiring, but perhaps. Or a machine with wooden scissor blades, edged with something abrasive, needing frequent replacement but easy to manufacture.



> Wood might be usable in the form of plywood; glues available to the Middle Ages were quite good enough for this purpose even leaving aside the possibility of using a rubber-based cement for the laminating.



Mediaeval adhesives weren't really very good; essentially size based (size being boiled down animal leftovers, like hooves and bones, not a dimension) or resin based (being tree extrudence); not very waterproof, or all that permanent). Indeed they've improved massively during my lifetime. I would not choose them as an essential component in either body armour or a shield. However, if invention in metallurgy was blocked, it's quite possible organic chemistry would have advanced faster. 

If you were building laminated armour, you wouldn't start with a sheet of plywood and steam deform it to shape (which is basically how to build a mosquito) but make a mould of your warrior's chest (or whatever) and press your softened strips of wood into it, impregnating with adhesive. You can laminate in leather, or horn, or even ceramic or stone while doing so.

The trouble with wooden or fibrous armour (fibreglass could be built pretty early) is that rather than getting dented (which can be hammered out, making the armour reusable) weapons dig in to the softer (not soft, just less rigid) material, and it is slowly weakened, and is far more difficult to repair. (which hasn't prevented armour from bamboo, various woods, crocodile hide, splint and scale… all of which have similar difficulties.


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## Dave (Oct 20, 2013)

Iron is a very common element. It is one of the final products of fusion within massive Stars. Hence it is found in most asteroids and meteorites and planets; the Earth itself has an Iron core.

Of course, you are writing Fantasy so you can have a planet without Iron if you want to, however unlikely that might be.


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## thaddeus6th (Oct 20, 2013)

Could you make metal unsuitable/unuseable for religious reasons? Blood of the gods, or suchlike. Gives you scope (if you want it) to have evil heretics who use metal.


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## chrispenycate (Oct 23, 2013)

A lot of posts (including, I fear, some of mine) have been working on the assumption that there is no iron in the crust if this planet. I even surmised that the lack of a moon might have prevented the dense elements from being stirred up into the crust. However, Mars' satellites are a fairly feeble excuse for moons, especially in tidal terms, and its surface is practically wall to wall rust, so, at a guess, based on the fact that iron's the low point on the nuclear energy curve, any rocky planet's going to have ferrous compounds in its crust.

But they needn't be the simple oxides, sulphides and sulphates common on Earth, which can easily be reduced using charcoal, generated from trees, solar energy and CO2 (or more recently coke, sort of delayed action charcoal). After all, there's more aluminium than iron in the Earth's crust, and that wasn't extracted until the nineteenth century. If iron were tied up in some more stable compound, not extractable by easily achievable heat we could go on having red blood but not be able to smelt iron ore into the pure metal (or the rather carbon-rich mixture that ultimately gives us steel)". No, I can't think of a ferrous compound that would do this, but I'm no chemist. I do think that if it was as universal as that, as against the diversity of ferrous (and ferric) compounds on Earth, it's probably some biological process converting all available iron into this, probably a bacterium.


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## allmywires (Oct 24, 2013)

JoanDrake said:


> In the first place, is a world where iron is rare even possible? I don't see why, it could all be buried deep in the core



I'm not poo-pooing the idea (anything's possible if you explain it well and all that) but iron is the fourth most abundant element in the crust and one of the most important rock-forming elements so it would be difficult for me to grasp a world where iron is rare or nonexistant...

*disappears into the internet again*

welp would have helped if i'd read the second page...never mind me.


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