# Wonder Woman (2017) (Spoilers)



## hopewrites (Jun 12, 2017)

Saw this the other day. And enjoyed how it differed from the Wonder Woman of my childhood. 

When I was a kid the Wonder Woman playing on tv (along with rambo and zena) was misogynisticly feminist. And while I loved the idea of a truth lasso, it's application was slightly S&M and the people caught in it relieved to tell the truth. Which is not how I would have used my truth lasso. 


I SO appreciate this WW because she didnt have to,  nor try to,  emasculate anything to assert her personal power. Steve didnt feel or act anything but grateful when she saved him. His shock at her behavior was consistent with his era, but not the shock of disapproval or even injured sensibilities. 

I love LOVE that her lasso while forcing truth from its subjects also allows them their emotional truth while dealing with truth being forced from them. 

Gripes? The few I had are small and easily set aside to maintain suspension of disbelief and not big enough to dampen my enjoyment of the movie. 
Aries, while a God (not Goddess) of war, is a chick not a dude. But I suppose that's a comic book change to the original mythology that I shouldn't quibble about. 
There's no way anyone can get on a horse in that dress, let alone wait till their galloping along at a fair clip to fling it off. 



That's it. Those were my gripes.  
Overall I enjoyed it immensely. Lookiny forward to buying a special feature laden dvd/blu ray. 


Anyone else care to share their opinions?


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## Charles Gull (Jun 20, 2017)

There were approximately 50% too many female breasts in evidence.

The 'original' Amazons allegedly cut off one of their own breasts so as not to interfere with the archery bowstring.

The other one they kept so that they could still breastfeed (in some depictions whilst fighting) because that was the best way to ensure the strongest fighters for the next generation. They were true warrior mothers.

Very little of that in evidence in the film.


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## Randy M. (Jun 20, 2017)

Charles, I knew I liked Gadot as WW before the movie was through post-production when she dealt with criticism from some quarters of not being busty enough for the role by mentioning the fact you raise. 

As for the rest of it, I don't think many Greeks or Romans would have recognized Steve Reeves or Arnold as Hercules, and I have serious doubts a true Viking would be impressed by modern Thor. We adapt myths and legends as we need them and our adaptations say more about us than about our ancestors. Which may also explain recent versions of Superman and Batman.

Me, I like the movie, too, Hopewrites. I am curious, though, how does one go about being "misogynistically feminist"?


Randy M.


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## Charles Gull (Jun 20, 2017)

Randy M. said:


> Charles, I knew I liked Gadot as WW before the movie was through post-production when she dealt with criticism from some quarters of not being busty enough for the role by mentioning the fact you raise.
> 
> As for the rest of it, I don't think many Greeks or Romans would have recognized Steve Reeves or Arnold as Hercules, and I have serious doubts a true Viking would be impressed by modern Thor. We adapt myths and legends as we need them and our adaptations say more about us than about our ancestors. Which may also explain recent versions of Superman and Batman.
> 
> ...


Touche.

Actually, I liked the film too, in general. My reservations are more 'DC' related than 'WW'. Some sections of the scenography dragged on a little and it took itself just a little bit too seriously at times.

For me the best scene was the  (apparently unscripted and spontaneously ad-libbed) boat conversation. That calm, confident, honest and deeply intelligent depiction of WW was for me the most likably feminist thing in the whole film.

But then, I'm a bloke so what do I know?


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## Venusian Broon (Jun 20, 2017)

Damn, derailing a thread to talk about breasts...ah well.

Actually I believe most ancient depictions of Amazons in Greek pottery or in sculpture had them fully doubled-breasted. In fact I don't think there is an example of a poor women who has been cauterised in Greek or Roman art. (Which would probably have killed the girl anyway, but that's modern medical science for you.)

I believe there was one 'source' of the one-breasted sub-myth and I think he came to that conclusion based on the Greek love of etymology and the possible deconstruction of the Greek word for Amazon to mean 'One-breasted'. But seemingly it could also be deconstructed to be 'full breasted' or 'not-touching men' so there was a lot of leeway. (See their theorising of history based on the etymology of place names. All a bit mad.)

Hence if it was good enough for most of the originators of the myth and the visual industry of the classical period (ceramics of amazons were in high demand at the time), then I think it can be good enough for Gal Gadot and crew.

Hope, I thought Ares was in fact a dude in the movie. Or did I miss some important scene 

I quite it enjoyed the movie overall as well, daft but fun - so I ignored all the plot holes, although I have to say I'm not the greatest fan of superhero extravaganzas.


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## Charles Gull (Jun 20, 2017)

Venusian Broon said:


> Damn, derailing a thread to talk about breasts...ah well.


Yeah, I'm always being accused of derailing threads. I'm sure to get the wooden spoon soon. But as soon as I do,  I'll be able to bake lots of cakes for all my feminist friends.


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## Venusian Broon (Jun 20, 2017)

Charles Gull said:


> Yeah, I'm always being accused of derailing threads. I'm sure to get the wooden spoon soon. But as soon as I do,  I'll be able to bake lots of cakes for all my feminist friends.


Don't worry, I derail constantly. I think as long as you always make an attempt to correct it's fine. 

And I'm bound up in the lasso of truth at the moment so you can trust me with that one...


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## Randy M. (Jun 20, 2017)

Charles Gull said:


> Touche.
> 
> Actually, I liked the film too, in general. My reservations are more 'DC' related than 'WW'. Some sections of the scenography dragged on a little and it took itself just a little bit too seriously at times.
> 
> ...



I thought your tongue was mostly in cheek, but for me any excuse to bloviate ...

My wife was won over by the movie even though she's tired of superheros and will welcome the current fad subsiding. I think her acceptance of the movie goes to the story being about WW coming to maturity and losing her view of war as glamorous, but also to the cast and especially Pine and Gadot and their chemistry. I'm glad WW didn't get made sooner, though I only now realize we were



... it's coming ...





... it's almost here ...




Waiting for Gadot.


Randy M.
(yeah, yeah, like you didn't want to use that gag)


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## Dave (Jun 20, 2017)

I wasn't planning on seeing this, but given all the good reviews I may just. A sequel has already been greenlighted.


hopewrites said:


> When I was a kid the Wonder Woman playing on tv (along with rambo and zena) was misogynisticly feminist.





Randy M. said:


> Me, I like the movie, too, Hopewrites. I am curious, though, how does one go about being "misogynistically feminist"?


@TweetingBogart on Twitter 'complained' that this was "yet another film perpetuating the myth that all museum workers lead glamorous double lives... We're just too tired." 

Given that the recently lauded as "feminist," _Ghostbusters_ film, also had a cast with white collar occupations, there may actually be a valid point here. Why isn't Wonder Woman a construction worker or given an occupation that would be given to a male superhero, such as a journalist or a rich socialite? Stock Superhero Day Jobs - TV Tropes

I am puzzled though. I was sure Rambo was portrayed as a man, despite Sylvester Stallone's short stature.


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## Stuart Suffel (Jun 21, 2017)

Charles Gull said:


> There were approximately 50% too many female breasts in evidence.
> 
> The 'original' Amazons allegedly cut off one of their own breasts so as not to interfere with the archery bowstring.
> 
> ...


Em...

Er...

Nope. I got nothing.


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## Stuart Suffel (Jun 21, 2017)

Randy M. said:


> I am curious, though, how does one go about being "misogynistically feminist"?
> 
> 
> Randy M.


Female power, according to men.


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## Charles Gull (Jun 21, 2017)

Stuart Suffel said:


> Female power, according to men.


Aha! Then surely that should be 'naively feminist'. I really do object to the implication that ALL men are FUNDAMENTALLY and INTENTIONALLY misogynistic.

For me, perpetuating this propaganda is THE most damaging thing for modern feminism.


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## Charles Gull (Jun 21, 2017)

Stuart Suffel said:


> Nope. I got nothing.


Just because a thing can't be observed directly, it doesn't mean it's not there.

Why bother building a shelf with two Latte cup holders if you only have one Latte cup to put on it?


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## hopewrites (Jun 26, 2017)

Late replying without quotes. Sorry.


Yes, in the movie Aires is a dude. My hurmph was that the way I remembered Greek Mythology Aries was a chick who being war like got called a god instead of a goddess. More a hurmph than a full on complaint because a) I could very well have miss remembered something covered in school 20+ years ago, and/or 2) comics change mythos to fit their arcs and needs, so in this one he's a dude. I shouldn't impose my will on all worlds... C) if it bothered me enough I'd write my own version. Which I haven't, so it must not bother me that much.



How to be misogynisticly feminist in 5 easy steps.
1) all women are not only dominatrixly powerful, they go as naked as possible to prove it.

2) all women are pacifists who love to beat up men for not beng pacifists.

3) reversing gender rolls implies that gender rolls matter, which implies they are correct. / someone somewhere should always be disimpowered for having a gender.

4) chainmail bikini ftw (yes, I know, but it bares reiterating)

5) be condescending to the gender you are supposed to be empowering.




Just because you have a gender doesnt class you with people who also have that gender. Unless you're trying to use a nonunisex bathroom, and then it only applies to which room you use.
In my opinion.



Yep, Rambo was totally a dude. Those were just the shows on at the same time. For context. Because the writing for all three shows was similar enough to list them for context. Hot sweaty mostly naked warriors killin it up, solvin problems with won liners.


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## Venusian Broon (Jun 26, 2017)

hopewrites said:


> Late replying without quotes. Sorry.
> 
> 
> Yes, in the movie Aires is a dude. My hurmph was that the way I remembered Greek Mythology Aries was a chick who being war like got called a god instead of a goddess. More a hurmph than a full on complaint because a) I could very well have miss remembered something covered in school 20+ years ago, and/or 2) comics change mythos to fit their arcs and needs, so in this one he's a dude. I shouldn't impose my will on all worlds... C) if it bothered me enough I'd write my own version. Which I haven't, so it must not bother me that much.



I'm sure Aries is the Ram not the god of war (he is Ares without the 'i'). But I am being a touch pedantic!

As for female deities connected to war, Athena was a goddess of war (as well as wisdom and craft) but I believe she was much calmer and more measured than Ares. And also, it has to be said probably more important, as I don't think Ares really turns up much in the mythology. However I may be wrong.


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## hopewrites (Jun 26, 2017)

I probably changed it in my head then. It the school I went to said Roman and Greek mythologies were the same, with different names for the same gods, and presented the whole pantheon as a soft hussle. Pick a god any god, ok, now put it back, and Hey Presto you're Christian, forget the whole mess. 
So I probably felt at liberty to make them who and what I wanted. 
Which is why I cant really argue with comic book creators who've done the same.


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## Charles Gull (Jun 26, 2017)

Venusian Broon said:


> I'm sure Aries is the Ram not the god of war (he is Ares without the 'i'). But I am being a touch pedantic!
> 
> As for female deities connected to war, Athena was a goddess of war (as well as wisdom and craft) but I believe she was much calmer and more measured than Ares. And also, it has to be said probably more important, as I don't think Ares really turns up much in the mythology. However I may be wrong.


Yep, Ares was actually disliked by the Greeks. I believe he was the only Olympian for which no temple was ever erected. He was considered too much of a loose cannon, unlike his female equivalent Athena.


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## Charles Gull (Jun 26, 2017)

hopewrites said:


> Just because you have a gender doesnt class you with people who also have that gender. Unless you're trying to use a nonunisex bathroom, and then it only applies to which room you use.
> In my opinion.


You make some interesting points.

Many people have made a big thing about WW walking into the War Cabinet (or whatever it was supposed to be). The arguement goes 'she is so feminist that she simply doesn't realise she is challenging male domination'. I see this a little differently. For me it wasn't about 'A woman in a man's world' what I saw was 'A culturally insensitive ambassador'.

Very sorry, I just don't see how her behavior was positively feminist in any way.

But, as I have mentioned before , I am a bloke so I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.


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## hopewrites (Jun 26, 2017)

So...? Tangent here. But... 

Ares is not Aries. 
One is an abused god of war, the other is a cuddly fire sign end of march early April?

I thought I was quite sure Ares Roman counterpart was Mars, who for sure was always a dude, but the only way I remembered that was that while Mars was a dude, Ares was someone's daughter. 

[the rest of this tangent is redacted for time and sanity.] 
Sorry. Went off there a bit. I think I've got it now though.


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## Charles Gull (Jun 26, 2017)

hopewrites said:


> So...? Tangent here. But...
> 
> Ares is not Aries.
> One is an abused god of war, the other is a cuddly fire sign end of march early April?
> ...


The Greeks were actually quite messed up about their own mythology. They had several mutually contradictory versions.
The Romans tidied it all up a bit so the popular direct equivalence is a bit of an over simplification.


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## hopewrites (Jun 26, 2017)

Charles Gull said:


> You make some interesting points.
> 
> Many people have made a big thing about WW walking into the War Cabinet (or whatever it was supposed to be). The arguement goes 'she is so feminist that she simply doesn't realise she is challenging male domination'. I see this a little differently. For me it wasn't about 'A woman in a man's world' what I saw was 'A culturally insensitive ambassador'.
> 
> ...



Ok! Yes. I saw ambassador who doesn't see things the way they do, similar to you. I didn't see this WW as feminist at all. Which was something I loved. And tried to point out by comparing it to the old one which pretended it was, and then wasnt. A point I probably forgot to finish making in my OP. 

Set up to the war room, shopping. Right? She doesnt get where his culture is at, he's enchanted that she's just human. Treats him and his secretary like humans. Human human human, not gender gender gender. 

I felt her disillusionment was a lovely arc because Steve is all, "look I wish I could tell you it's this one bad guy. And no other. But that's not how humans are. I have to go. I have to keep fighting for what I believe to be right." then Ares comes along and says basically the same thing, pushng his argument all the way up the truth lasso. Which leaves her to chose for herself [proxy audience] what she believes and then fight for that.



Re: the museum thing, I thought she was just the specialist called in to curate the one collection. She looked like a private collector not museum staff. Especially given her reply to batmans request for a full story. "thanks for the nostalgia" isn't a story. And it's not the kind of reply an official worker would give for a donation to a public collection.


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## Venusian Broon (Jun 26, 2017)

hopewrites said:


> So...? Tangent here. But...
> 
> Ares is not Aries.
> One is an abused god of war, the other is a cuddly fire sign end of march early April?



Yes. Aries is the Latin word for ram. And that cuddly fire sign was probably adopted by the Greeks from earlier zodiacal systems invented by the Babylonians or even earlier peoples - Sumerians I'd guess.

(The Greeks then suggested that it actually was the ram of the golden fleece, because they wanted culturally invade someone else's system )

And yes, Mars is the Roman equivalent to Ares.


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## Charles Gull (Aug 11, 2020)

Lost the keys to my old account, so I had to set up a new one.


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