# Why Do We Love Bad and Obviously flawed Science Fiction. Fantasy Films, Tv Shows and Novels ?



## BAYLOR (Dec 11, 2020)

It's possible that  when we first see  them, we don't see their flaws and problems  but later on , we do . So,  how it we  still manage to enjoy them regardless ?  And , what are  your favorite flawed science fiction and fantasy tv shows , books and movies ? What makes them so compelling that you still  partake of them warts and all?


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## alexvss (Dec 11, 2020)

Maybe we didn't realise they were flawed at fist glance. This could be because we just didn't have the knowledge to know that they were flawed when we consumed them. 

Take the game *The Last of Us*, for instance: it's a total rip-off from a book/movie called *The Road, *and it makes absolutely no sense*.* In *TLoU*, they want to make Ellie undergo brain surgery, so they can reverse engineer her brain and make a vaccine for the fungus that turns people into zombies. Firstly, why would you like to make a vaccine, when 99% of the world is already dead or undead? Vaccines are a form of prevention, not cure. Secondly, you don't make vaccines for fungus, you just don't; there are other ways of dealing with funguses. Thirdly, you don't mess with someone's brain to make a vaccine: you just need to take a sample of their blood to study the plasma. But we all played this game and loved it, because 99,9% of us are not biologists/medics, and 99% of us didn't read/watch *The Road*.

Another example is *Back to the Future*. It's take on time travel is absurd, but we didn't know that at the time. Now we know about bootstraps and stuff, but who cares? It's still entertaining. 

My last point is: bad movies are funny as hell. Did you watch *The Room? Tokyo Gore Police? White Chicks? *You should.

There's a manga called* Chainsaw Man*. In it, the protagonist is fighting the villain, and he asks her, "In your ideal world, there will still be crappy movies?"
"I don't understand your question," she answers. "But I think that a world without bad movies would be a better place."
He thinks for a bit, exhales, and finally says, "I guess I'll have to kill you, then."


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## CupofJoe (Dec 11, 2020)

All productions [book, film TV, interpretive dance] are flawed. We either accept the flaw or we don't. If we do accept the flaws then we probably end up liking it. If we don't, we can't see how anyone could enjoy it...
For me it is when something doesn't obey its own rules or changes them for some reason... that is what annoys me.
Don't get me started on Midi-chlorians - The answer to a question no-one was asking...


alexvss said:


> There's a manga called* Chainsaw Man*. In it, the protagonist is fighting the villain, and he asks her, "In your ideal world, there will still be crappy movies?"
> "I don't understand your question," she answers. "But I think that a world without bad movies would be a better place."
> He thinks for a bit, exhales, and finally says, "I guess I'll have to kill you, then."


A man after my own heart!


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## Justin Swanton (Dec 11, 2020)

Let me stick to SF movies for this one.

I think bad science in SF movies ends up irritating me, but the trouble is that it's virtually impossible to have good science and enjoyable SF. The only movie that managed that was _Apollo 13_ and that arguable wasn't SF (but it was a good movie).

Bad science SF that I still enjoyed? Mmmmh...something about _Annihilation _that I found compelling.

When I was a kid I watched_ Green Slime_ and had nightmares for a week afterwards. I watched a bit of it again recently. Oh boy. I also was riveted by _UFO _in my tender youth but it makes me laugh now. Those moonbase females with purple hair...


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## BAYLOR (Dec 13, 2020)

*Space 1999* ran for two seasons  produced by Grey and Sylvia Anderson .  This show had great production values and terrific special effects for its time . Unfortunately the series premise of the moon being biased out of orbit because the nuclear  waste dumps nearby went up is implausible for a number of reasons and, the fact that the moon traveling at well below the speed of light would result in them not being  able to visit other worlds. 
Yes. lots and lost of implausibilities  with this one  

But I can suspend enough disbelief to enjoy this one .


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## Guttersnipe (Jan 28, 2021)

It might have something to do with our love of cringe, or it could make us nostalgic. As for myself, bad films and TV shows remind me of a time when I was "serious" about making something similar, and being able to spot similar pitfalls can be fun.


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## Wayne Mack (Jan 29, 2021)

Part of the craft of writing, stories or screen plays, is to get the reader or viewer engrossed in the plot and character instead of looking for nits to complain about.

I remember as a teenager being enthralled with Michael Moorcock's eternal champion series. Now, when I try to reread some of his stories, I can never seem to get through the first chapter. I think if you manage to hook the reader early, the reader will gloss over minor and sometimes significant issues. Fail to hook the reader, and the reader will discover every flaw (and perhaps make up some more).


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## The Big Peat (Jan 29, 2021)

If I like it, it's not bad 

Now, liking something if it has flaws... end of the day, I'm here to be entertained. A piece of art doesn't have to be flawless to be entertaining.


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## Rodders (Jan 30, 2021)

What he said. 

It's entertainment and i pay to be entertained.


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## AnyaKimlin (Jan 30, 2021)

Pretty much what Big Peat said. As long as I am invested in it, I don't really care if someone hasn't go their magic system perfect or their jet propulsion engines so they might function.  I care about the storytelling talent and imagination involved.

I did archaeology and worked in museums - if I want historical knowledge that is mostly accurate then I read a text book but even they have flaws and change over time.  What is good historical knowledge this year might not be next year.

The same goes with mechanics and engineering.

One of my favourite concept cars is a 1949 Buick Skyliner. But, as I found out, if you try to reproduce the body on a smaller electric car it looks like it should be painted red and yellow and be driven by a small guy in a hat. It seriously loses its elegance.

What we see as "accurate" in 2021 will be a weird perception of accurate in 2041. So if academics can't get it "right", when it comes to fiction why get hung up on the details?


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## The Big Peat (Jan 30, 2021)

I guess a good example of a book I see as flawed that I enjoy would be the *Harry Potter *books. I think the worldbuilding, particularly the magic, and therefore the plot when it hinges on said worldbuilding, is very easy to pick apart. Sure, everything can be picked apart in everything, but in Harry Potter it's very easy. However, the tone and immediate tensions and sense of mystery carry me through the story without looking too hard.


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## Astro Pen (Jan 30, 2021)

*Gunsmith Cats.* Here's a 30 minute episode for you.




(And I got it so bad I bought the Manga too.  sorry.)


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## Pyan (Jan 30, 2021)

What The Big Peat said. 
Besides which, I defy you to name _one_ science fiction or fantasy book, film or TV series that is completely flawless. No such beast.


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## paranoid marvin (Jan 31, 2021)

It's just like with historical drama; do you want accuracy or do you want an enjoyable film? Is it even possible to make both happen together in the same book/movie?


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## BAYLOR (Feb 6, 2021)

The original Trek had a flaw or two.


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## BAYLOR (Feb 28, 2021)

Buck Roger in the 25th Century  could have been better  then it was, It two pilot looked pretty good but the show quickly lost it age and decided into silly stories. But it was still enjoyable.


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## Rodders (Mar 1, 2021)

Simpler times then, Baylor and I think we were more easily pleased. 

I rewatched Buck Rogers when it was released on DVD. It doesn't hold up at all well.


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## BAYLOR (Mar 1, 2021)

Rodders said:


> Simpler times then, Baylor and I think we were more easily pleased.
> 
> I rewatched Buck Rogers when it was released on DVD. It doesn't hold up at all well.



It takes place in the 25th Century but  still looks like the 1970's to me., I did  enjoyed it when I first saw it.


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## Droflet (Mar 1, 2021)

Ah, here I am in the minority again. Hated Buck Rogers but not as much as the original BSG. By today's standards, staggeringly terrible. And I thought so at the time.


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## CupofJoe (Mar 1, 2021)

I'm with you. I wasn't a fan of either show but I couldn't see why ANYONE would voluntarily watch Buck Rogers...
But there again I was the kid getting beaten up for liking Blake's Seven...


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## BAYLOR (Mar 1, 2021)

CupofJoe said:


> I'm with you. I wasn't a fan of either show but I couldn't see why ANYONE would voluntarily watch Buck Rogers...
> But there again I was the kid getting beaten up for liking Blake's Seven...



It lasted for tow seasons and it might gone on longer had the never done the whole Seacher zaniness in season 2.


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## paranoid marvin (Mar 1, 2021)

By the 1970s , the UK was doing some truly great sci-fi tv programmes., Doctor Who was in it's Baker years, there was Blakes 7, Quatermass, Space 1999, etc etc. Even kids tv was getting gritty sci-fi drama like The Changes and Chocky. There was never a better time than the late 60s/70s for innovative, interesting (and often frightening) science fiction drama in Britain.


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## BAYLOR (Mar 1, 2021)

paranoid marvin said:


> By the 1970s , the UK was doing some truly great sci-fi tv programmes., Doctor Who was in it's Baker years, there was Blakes 7, Quatermass, Space 1999, etc etc. Even kids tv was getting gritty sci-fi drama like The Changes and Chocky. There was never a better time than the late 60s/70s for innovative, interesting (and often frightening) science fiction drama in Britain.



Yes , at that time Britain was producing really good science fiction.  

In the  1970's,  US television marked the end of the Television westerns . What you had were  pretty much mediocre  dramas and lame sitcoms  TV movies of various genres few of which were that great on occasion there was the tv envoy miniseries  which were almost exclusively not science fiction.


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## paranoid marvin (Mar 1, 2021)

BAYLOR said:


> Yes , at that time Britain was producing really good science fiction.
> 
> In the  1970's,  US television marked the end of the Television westerns . What you had were  pretty much mediocre  dramas and lame sitcoms  TV movies of various genres few of which were that great on occasion there was the tv envoy miniseries  which were almost exclusively not science fiction.




Yep , Buck Rogers was basically cowboys in spacesuits. One tv mini-series that I really did enjoy at the time though was V. The tv series that followed sadly wasn't of the same calibre.


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## AlexH (Mar 1, 2021)

Because they're fun!

I attended a webinar on world building from David Farland last week, and that's basically what he said. He used Star Wars (and maybe LotR) as examples. I'd add Doctor Who at its best to that list - it's ridiculous if you think about it too much, but it's fun.


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## BAYLOR (Mar 1, 2021)

paranoid marvin said:


> Yep , Buck Rogers was basically cowboys in spacesuits. One tv mini-series that I really did enjoy at the time though was V. The tv series that followed sadly wasn't of the same calibre.



Had Buck Rodger maintained the darker tone the two hour pilot  and ditched the whole Searcher  concep of season two , it might have  had a longer  run then it did,

The first V Miniseries was a excellent , The second V the Final Battle was less so . From what Ive  read over the years Kenneth Johnson didn't really want to do a full blown tv series but as series movies because he thought they maintain  keep the quality of the story telling.  The Network insisted on tv series and didn't;t care about quality.


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## Vince W (Mar 2, 2021)

Rodders said:


> Simpler times then, Baylor and I think we were more easily pleased.
> 
> I rewatched Buck Rogers when it was released on DVD. It doesn't hold up at all well.


Except for Erin Grey's outfits. Sigh.


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## BAYLOR (Mar 2, 2021)

Vince W said:


> Except for Erin Grey's outfits. Sigh.



They diminished  her character in the show. I didn't like that very much.


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## Vince W (Mar 2, 2021)

BAYLOR said:


> They diminished her character in the show. I didn't like that very much.


It doesn't lessen my crush on her, though.


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## BAYLOR (Mar 2, 2021)

Vince W said:


> It doesn't lessen my crush on her, though.



She was beautiful , no argument there.   

In orignal Buck Rogers novel  by  Philip Nolan ( and he wasn't called Buck, he was called  Anthony) I think they ended up Husband and wife, Had the show continued I think it would have filled that that route.


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## Rodders (Mar 2, 2021)

Loved the Starfighters, loved Wilma Deering.


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## CupofJoe (Mar 2, 2021)

I've come to the conclusion that this is the only Buck Rogers I can like...


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## AlexH (Mar 2, 2021)

CupofJoe said:


> I've come to the conclusion that this is the only Buck Rogers I can like...


Daisy the elephant makes some TARDIS.

And I do always think of this song whenever I see "Buck Rogers" from the TV context.


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## BAYLOR (Mar 3, 2021)

paranoid marvin said:


> Yep , Buck Rogers was basically cowboys in spacesuits. One tv mini-series that I really did enjoy at the time though was V. The tv series that followed sadly wasn't of the same calibre.





Vince W said:


> It doesn't lessen my crush on her, though.



 The episode with Buster Crabbe the original Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers guest starred  and the scene with him and Gill Gerard is was that show's  finest moment.


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## Toby Frost (Mar 4, 2021)

I was thinking about this, and at the end of the day, I'm not sure that I do. There are films that I've thought of in the past as silly but enjoyable - _Robocop, Starship Troopers, Excalibur, Bram Stoker's Dracula_ - but right now I'd say that they're actually good films, despite having flaws. I suppose something like _Jason and the Argonauts_ might count, but the bits I like are the good, well-made bits, namely the Ray Harryhausen parts, and I've forgotten most of the rest.

I find it very hard to like much SFF before 1980 or so, with the exceptions of _Star Wars, Alien_ and perhaps _2001_. Until that rather grubby, worn-in look was established, a lot of SF just looks a bit cheap and silly to me, so that I can't really get with it even when I know that the stories are good. The exception for me might be _The Prisoner_, which I remember fondly, but I suspect that if I went back to it, a lot of it would just seem bad.


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## nixie (Mar 4, 2021)

Tomorrow's People, children's TV show from the 70's. I really don't remember to much about it apart from the kids had special powers and an underground lab? It probably had loads of flaws but what I do remember was rushing home from school to watch.
I think there was a reboot, I did try watching it but couldn't.


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## BAYLOR (Mar 5, 2021)

nixie said:


> Tomorrow's People, children's TV show from the 70's. I really don't remember to much about it apart from the kids had special powers and an underground lab? It probably had loads of flaws but what I do remember was rushing home from school to watch.
> I think there was a reboot, I did try watching it but couldn't.



The reboot wasn't very good.


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## BAYLOR (Mar 14, 2021)

There was the 1979 Martian  Chronicles miniseries  with Rock Hudson .  It was pretty good.


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## paranoid marvin (Mar 14, 2021)

There's loads of great scifi/fantasy especially from British tv in the 60s/70s and 80s , but a lot of it was for kid's tv, presumably because writers couldn't get airspace for adult scifi programmes. So that we got great series like Children of the Stones, Into The Labyrinth, Chocky, The Tripods, Robin of Sherwood, Doctor Who, The Changes, Space 1999, Logans Run, Thunderbirds, Stingray etc etc.

There were still some great adult British 60s/70s scifi/fantasy like The Stone Tapes, Quatermass,, Blakes 7 but it was generally poorly represented which is probably why so many adults lapped up scifi that was primarily aimed at kids like Doctor Who.


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## Vladd67 (Mar 14, 2021)

Into the Labyrinth was great, Ron Moody always delivered. 
Of course, that is just me looking back, should I watch a video of it today my adult view may differ from my teenage view,


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## BAYLOR (Jun 13, 2021)

paranoid marvin said:


> There's loads of great scifi/fantasy especially from British tv in the 60s/70s and 80s , but a lot of it was for kid's tv, presumably because writers couldn't get airspace for adult scifi programmes. So that we got great series like Children of the Stones, Into The Labyrinth, Chocky, The Tripods, Robin of Sherwood, Doctor Who, The Changes, Space 1999, Logans Run, Thunderbirds, Stingray etc etc.
> 
> There were still some great adult British 60s/70s scifi/fantasy like The Stone Tapes, Quatermass,, Blakes 7 but it was generally poorly represented which is probably why so many adults lapped up scifi that was primarily aimed at kids like Doctor Who.



In the case of the Tripod, I wish they had been able to complete that series.


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## BAYLOR (Jul 19, 2021)

Droflet said:


> Ah, here I am in the minority again. Hated Buck Rogers but not as much as the original BSG. By today's standards, staggeringly terrible. And I thought so at the time.



Buck Rodgers could have been a whole lost better .  Larson should have hired a few science fiction writers to help with the script and storylines. 

Galactica  was too expense should stuck not original plan to be a miniseries.   Then maybe do two or telefilms per year.


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## Astro Pen (Aug 3, 2021)

Space Patrol.  How could anyone not love the adventures of Galasphere 347?
I particularly love the sound the ship makes
"Switching to robot control"


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## BAYLOR (Mar 13, 2022)

*Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea    *got ever more silly and imputable as it prgressed  but it never lost its entertainment value.


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