# WW1 Eastern Front



## Foxbat (Nov 12, 2017)

Many folk consider the trench warfare of the Western Front as 'the way it was' but the Eastern Front was a war of movement for the duration of fighting on that front. The large swathes of land in the east just didn't lend itself to static defences because there would always be enough space to go around them (and this is exactly what the Germans did in the west to the static Maginot Line in WW2).

Any general adopting trench warfare in the east in WW1 would soon have found themselves being attacked from the rear.

Eastern Front | International Encyclopedia of the First World War (WW1)


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## Caledfwlch (Nov 12, 2017)

It's another reason as to why I feel very dubious about the attempts to rehabilitate the British and Allied General Staff, claiming that "Lions led by Donkeys" is not fair, and the Commanders had no choice but to use the form of warfare we had.
Flanders and northern France are not exactly full of choke points, they are fairly flat open regions, of course, there is nowhere near the space available in on the Eastern Front, but still....

Mind, the Irish Peace Park affected me quite badly, hills are not all that common in Flanders, and this was barely even a hill, but it was raised, and to see the ground, and know that the Irish troops based there were not only ordered to charge the German Trenches at the top, full of machine gunners, but were made to Walk, not run, the bravery is unimaginable.


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## BAYLOR (Nov 12, 2017)

Caledfwlch said:


> It's another reason as to why I feel very dubious about the attempts to rehabilitate the British and Allied General Staff, claiming that "Lions led by Donkeys" is not fair, and the Commanders had no choice but to use the form of warfare we had.
> Flanders and northern France are not exactly full of choke points, they are fairly flat open regions, of course, there is nowhere near the space available in on the Eastern Front, but still....
> 
> Mind, the Irish Peace Park affected me quite badly, hills are not all that common in Flanders, and this was barely even a hill, but it was raised, and to see the ground, and know that the Irish troops based there were not only ordered to charge the German Trenches at the top, full of machine gunners, but were made to Walk, not run, the bravery is unimaginable.



What rehabilitate ? They sent men to there deaths needlessly and for what a few feet of ground at a time?


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## Caledfwlch (Nov 12, 2017)

Exactly. But some British Historians have been trying to rehabilitate those Generals, claiming it was the only way to fight that War.

In my opinion, they are simply glory seekers, attempting to get their names in the press, and on TV by challenging what is believed and known.

But, sadly, they are getting air time.


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## BAYLOR (Nov 12, 2017)

Caledfwlch said:


> Exactly. But some British Historians have been trying to rehabilitate those Generals, claiming it was the only way to fight that War.
> 
> In my opinion, they are simply glory seekers, attempting to get their names in the press, and on TV by challenging what is believed and known.
> 
> But, sadly, they are getting air time.



Sir Douglas Haig for The UK  and Joffre of France just kept sending  men into grinders. Later on they did adjust their tactics. Haig spent the rest of his life regretting how he conducted things in the war  He worked to help veterans. What that man took to his grave I cannot imagine. Joffre probably did as well.


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## Foxbat (Nov 13, 2017)

Personally, I don't think that it was a question of choice regarding Western Front methods but more of a form of warfare born out of ignorance. The British generals involved had risen through the ranks with an older mindset and didn't know how to cope with modern weaponry. The best example of evolution of warfare in WW1 was not the tank (in my opinion) but the shift in infantry tactics by the Germans. They moved their doctrine from the control of larger formations to the use of smaller units and allowed the use of initiative on a squad level. This gave them a new form of flexibility, which ideally suited modern weaponry. Luckily for us, it came too late in the war.

The doctrine was then developed by all sides and was used extensively in WW2. It's no accident that the make-up of a squad tended to be a certain number of riflemen and a light or medium machine because this gave a good balance of fire and movement. What the flexibility of initiative also did at the squad level was to allow the smaller units to adapt to the terrain they were working in rather than being stuck in a dogmatic, strategic approach, which more or less led to the horrific 'meat-grinder' effect of  'over the top' assaults.

Only my completely unqualified opinion of course


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## Caledfwlch (Nov 13, 2017)

Your "unqualified" opinion makes absolute sense to me! 

I have never been able to discover why the British Army, the Armies of the Crown Dominions, and certain European Nations, such as France (leading me to suspect they adopted the term during WW2, as the Free French Army, etc) use the term "Section" for what the rest of the world generally refers to as a Squad, or local language version of Squad. Just a strange quirk that originated within British & Imperial Forces I guess. 

The British General Staff have absolutely no excuse for not coming up with the German's tactic of smaller, highly mobile units, and just as little excuse for letting the Germans come up with it first!!

The British Army had a template for deities sake - the British Army created what was the very first 20th/21st century style Infantryman - in the sense of very well trained Soldiers, operating in small highly mobile units, allowed to use their initiative within their sphere, and using tactics such as "Fire and Manoeuvre" tactics and a style of operating perfectly suits the personal firearms infantrymen have been using since 1914. Except the British Army's template was created in 1800, several decades before weapons that suited the tactics better - repeating rifles and so on came into existence.

I speak of course, about the "Experimental Corps of Riflemen" who a couple of years later where fully incorporated into the British Armies Regimental Structure and given the name they became and are famous for, during the Peninsular War against the French Empire - the 95th Rifles.

The rest of the Army, at least until they began proving their use and metal in Spain & Portugal, was very sneery and snobbish at this upstart new Regiment - the Rifles were utterly alien to them. They wore Dark Bottle Green uniforms, unlike the Infantry's Red jackets with the Facings in the Regiments colour. There where no Privates in the Rifles - the rank and file were all "Chosen Men" what the British and other Armies would later call "Corporal" and to really cause confusion amongst the Infantry, especially the Officer Corps, you could call the rank and file "Rifleman" but if you stepped into a hall where a company was sat resting, and shouted out "Riflemen to your feet" every single person, including the Sergeants, and Officers would stand up. If you asked an Infantry Regiment Lieutenant,  Major, or Lieutenant -Colonel, who they were, they would say "I am an LT, Major etc of XX Regiment" if you asked the same of a Rifles officer, he would simply, and very proudly say "I am a Rifleman"
I think the decision to make them all Chosen Men was to reflect the fact that to get selected into the Rifles, you had to be a crack shot, and I think, have served in the British Army for a couple of years, there were no Recruiting Sergeants roaming Britain with a Drummer under the Regimental Colours, singing:
_Here's fourteen shillings on the drum
For those who'll volunteer to come
To list and fight the foe today
Over the hills and far away _

Riflemen did not carry Bayonets - Rifles were too long, and unwieldy, so Riflemen carried short Swords on their belts for hand to hand combat - where in the Infantry you would hear the command "Fix Bayonets! the Rifles command was "Draw Swords"
Riflemen had a special March, possibly called the "Quick March". For several paces Riflemen would march, like the Infantry, but at a slightly higher speed, then run for several paces, then back to the speedier march. Using it, they were able to get to places quicker, and further than the Infantry, a vital element as being Skirmishers and Scouts, they needed to scout ahead of Infantry formations on the march.

Intelligence, so they could quickly adapting to events and changes as they happen, using their own initiative were also vital skills, and the Rifles had a looser, less rigid command structure than the Infantry, Officers were encouraged to maintain a closer relationship with the men, than they would in the Infantry, eating with them and so on.
And they came up with tactics such as Fire and Manoeuvre. On Battlefields, whilst Skirmishing ahead, and engaging French Voltigeur's Skirmishing ahead for example, Riflemen worked in pairs, 1 would Fire, whilst covered by his oppo, who would then move forward a few paces to their chosen position, then reload, the 2nd fires his rifle, dance ahead, reload and repeat.
They were also of course, considered "Ungentlemanly" because one of their roles on the Battlefield was to damage the enemy command structure, targeting Officers and NCO's.


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## Foxbat (Nov 13, 2017)

Learned a lot from your post. Thanks (Napoleonics ain't a strong point for me). 

You mentioned Redcoats and I do recall reading somehwere that the reason for the colourful uniforms was in order that the generals could make sense of what was happening on the battlefield. It's a good job they at least got rid of this aspect before WW1


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## Caledfwlch (Nov 13, 2017)

Foxbat said:


> Learned a lot from your post. Thanks (Napoleonics ain't a strong point for me).
> 
> You mentioned Redcoats and I do recall reading somehwere that the reason for the colourful uniforms was in order that the generals could make sense of what was happening on the battlefield. It's a good job they at least got rid of this aspect before WW1



Aye - every European Army had it's own colour, for tracking on the battlefield, plus, the style of warfare in those days meant that camouflage or blending in was utterly pointless. Infantry Companies face each other, and fire muskets, and keep doing so until one side breaks and runs, or is wiped out.
I believe the Bottle Green of the 95th Rifles was to help them blend into the scenery a bit more, as their style of warfare benefited from it.

Portugal, around the same time, possibly a little before, also created a Regiment, the Rangers or "Caçadores"_. _During the Peninsular War, they wore a very similar uniform to the 95th Rifles, using a similar Bugle badge but coloured brown, which better suited the terrain.
By around 1811/12 say, I think it would be fair to say that despite being both a much smaller Nation and Military, the Portuguese Army was far, far more disciplined, lethal and effective than Spain's.
Spanish Infantry had a tendency to break and run after only exchanging 1 or 2 shots with the French, even if they outnumbered them, if you could talk them into even fighting in the first place! They were not cowards, far from it, but the poor buggers were lumbered with an absolutely horrifying Officer Corps. I think that in the Peninsular War period, the Spanish Crown and Nobility were very like the pre-revolutionary Ancien Regime in France. It wasn't a huge barrel of laughs being a Peasant in Wales, Scotland or England, but people living under those Ancien style regimes in Spain, pre revolutionary France etc had it much, much worse.

Spanish Officers tended to be from the Nobility, and awkward things like making sure the Men got fed were beneath their Noble Brows, Their men would be starving, whilst British Army Quartermasters and Officers often desperately worked magic to try and also feed the Spanish soldiers, who were not supposed to be their problem. Yet the Officers, would strut amongst their starving men, in gleaming Peacock uniforms, dripping with gold and expensive materials, unearned medals, and physically assault them for serious offences like not saluting quick enough.

You cannot blame the men for not being prepared to fight for Officers like that, who treated them like utter scum, couldn't be bothered to ensure they had food, and most importantly, many, if not most of those Officers would not go anywhere near the front line, they would stay well out of musket range, can't get mud on my feet Señor! Dying for ones country was for the peasants. There were plenty of Aristocratic British & Portuguese Officers who didn't treat their men as well as they should, but they still stood and marched with them into French musket fire.

Another issue, is Spain refused to allow British or Portuguese Officers to train or command Spanish troops. Despite the fact it's Officer Corps had absolutely no skills or experience in fighting what at the time was a modern war. Portugal had a similar problem of skills lack, but instead of being stubborn, or insisting they were amazeballs wonderful soldiers, they asked Britain to supply training officers, and learned quickly - So the Portuguese Army became very good, and you had British Officers leading Portuguese troops, sometimes as temporary lendings, sometimes ex Vets holding commissions in the Portuguese Army, and Portuguese officers leading British troops. Frankly, Portugal's Army of 1812, despite the numbers disparity would have likely kicked the absolute hell out of the Spanish. 
One little known fact amongst the Public is that the Military Alliance between for the last 2-300 years Portugal and Great Britain, but originally between the Kingdom of Portugal and the Kingdom of England is the oldest continuous Alliance in the World. The Anglo-Portuguese Alliance was first signed/cemented in *1376*.


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## Caledfwlch (Nov 13, 2017)

I think some interest Alternate History Scenario's could come from the Alliance with Portugal.
If another member of NATO or the EU for example attacked Portugal, Great Britain would have no choice but to go to Portugal's Defence. It has always honoured its treaties and obligations - to the point that it has gotten the UK into at least 3 Major European and World Wide Wars. It entered the Peninsular War after France attacked Portugal, WW1 because of it's Treaty to protect Belgium, and WW2 because of it's Treaty to protect Poland.
I have a feeling that part of the reasons for the UK being involved in the Crimean War was due to a treaty with France.
Having seen that France had passed legislation bringing back the National Guard last year, I was reading up on the original NG, and ended up reading a fair bit about Louis-Napoléon (Napoleon 3rd) President of France, (also known as the Prince-President) and I think, for a short while, Emperor or King, at least realistically that's what he was in terms of Power and Position, even if not formally crowned) and Louis-Napoléon is a fascinating guy. And I am sure it was within that, that I saw something about how he was an important factor in British French relations in the 1830's-60's, creating templates for what would become the Triple-Entente etc.
He also radically overhauled France, modernising the infrastructure, how it was governed, how the economy functioned, Agricultural reforms, seemingly small things at the time that are why France is now a wealthy and stable modern nation.


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## sknox (Dec 3, 2017)

Caledwlch, have you read Eugen Weber's book, _Peasants into Frenchmen_? It covers rural France from the mid-1700s up to the Great War. Per the subtitle, the bulk of the book covers 1870 to 1914, but the initial chapters go earlier. While much of the coverage is socio-economic, he has some good observations on the importance of the war in creating cultural unity, or at least in ironing down the wild variety that was France.


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## Caledfwlch (Dec 4, 2017)

sknox said:


> Caledwlch, have you read Eugen Weber's book, _Peasants into Frenchmen_? It covers rural France from the mid-1700s up to the Great War. Per the subtitle, the bulk of the book covers 1870 to 1914, but the initial chapters go earlier. While much of the coverage is socio-economic, he has some good observations on the importance of the war in creating cultural unity, or at least in ironing down the wild variety that was France.



Sounds an interesting read! Thanks for the recomendation!

That also makes absolute sense, that the Great War effectively solidified the changes and centralisation of France begun by Louis Napoleon - though these changes are not always good things.

IMO, the way that "French" (I use this very loosely) itself as a linguistic/cultural identity has also been centralised under these processes has very much left the French Republic and it's Citizens much, much the poorer. The State, and the so called Cultural Elite have put "French/Frenchness" onto a kind of holy pedestal, its almost a Godly Idol, ironic for a state which unlike the US does seem to ruthlessly enforce the separation of State and Church. 

Centralisation has been utterly ruthless on the regional languages and cultures of France - people forget that "France" is not one of those rare states who's political borders match the cultural/linguistical/tribal makeup of it's populoation, it is an artificial Nation State, like Spain or the UK, created by 1 central Power/People (The French) who politically and militarily dominated the surrounding regions and their people - Whilst I believe most of the different peoples such as Occitan's and Picardians are pretty much the same people (Franks) as the French, not a different "race" like the Bretons, or the Basques, they still had differing cultures and languages which have been ruthlessly diminished and butchered by the arrogance of those in the heart of the centralised State, because of course, Paris, like London sits at the heart of its spiderweb, greedily sucking away from the rest.

I have met Breton Nationalists who dream of a Breton State, and I have met more realistic Bretons who are proud to be part of France, they just want the right for their kids to go to school in their cultures traditional language, they are the majority, but Paris is scared by people who dont want to fit their interpretation of Frenchness, they don't understand why everyone in France doesnt want to be a good little Parisian effectively, in terms of language, culture, opinion etc.


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## The Judge (Dec 4, 2017)

Caledfwlch said:


> Another issue, is Spain refused to allow British or Portuguese Officers to train or command Spanish troops.


I don't know how accurate that is as a general statement of the Spanish position, but Samford Whittingham was a British officer who held high command in the Spanish army, and not merely as an honorary position, since he led troops into battle.  He also established a training college for Spanish cavalry officers at one point Samuel Ford Whittingham - Wikipedia


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## Montero (Dec 4, 2017)

Regarding great big blocks of infantry on the Napoleonic War battlefield dressed in bright colours - you also need to remember that gunpowder was far from smokeless - so whenever they fired there was a cloud of smoke above them.

The comments about rifle tactics and how the rifle regiment was regarded - there was a lot of that about in the armed forces. The WW1 submarines were not liked by a lot of the surface navy - one Admiral called them a bunch of pirates so they adopted the Jolly Roger flag and flew it when they came back into port. (BTW the submarine museum at the Portsmouth Historic Dockyard is well worth a visit.) In WW2 the SAS were unpopular with regular army types. So the whole idea of adopting tactics from anything "not regular" would have been regarded with great suspicion.

Incidentally, for WW1 trench warfare, read "All Quiet on the Western Front" - Erich Maria Remarque. Very readable, human, sad, occasional dark humour. (His book about the WW2 Eastern Front was made into a film I saw years ago (Remarque has a minor role in it) and that too was gripping and memorable.)


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## Caledfwlch (Dec 4, 2017)

The Jolly Roger tradition certainly continued with Royal Navy Submarines, into the 1980's at least.
Returning to her UK Home port, in 1982, after the Falklands War, HMS Conqueror proudly flew the Jolly Roger.




 

I have genuinely never understood the controversy over HMS Conqueror sinking the Belgrano.
Especially when those who do rant about it, never hold the Argentine Pilots to the same standard.


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## BAYLOR (Dec 4, 2017)

Caledfwlch said:


> The Jolly Roger tradition certainly continued with Royal Navy Submarines, into the 1980's at least.
> Returning to her UK Home port, in 1982, after the Falklands War, HMS Conqueror proudly flew the Jolly Roger.
> 
> View attachment 41601
> ...



What argument ? Given the fact  that it was war, the Belgrano was a legitimate target.


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## Caledfwlch (Dec 4, 2017)

BAYLOR said:


> What argument ? Given the fact  that it was war, the Belgrano was a legitimate target.



Some British people claim that the sinking of the Belgrano was a war crime, because she wasn't pointing towards the British Task Force when she was taken out by HMS Conqueror.

Sad loss of life, absolutely, but they were the aggressors, the jack booted thugs of a fascist regime.
There is an amazing programme where Simon Weston (A Guardsman in the Welsh Guards, who survived the bombing of the Galahad after an Exocet attack, but with horrific scarring of his body and face, and is an amazing charity worker) meets some of the Pilots who were in the Argentine Air Force in 1982, men who fired exocet's at British ships, and if these guys can forgive each other, understand that they were the pawns of politicians, made to do and suffer horrific things, then the people in the UK screaming about the Belgrano need to have a long hard think. It was War. War is not nice. The Belgrano is not a British War Crime, it's a warning of the real cost of War, and every PM should be made to see photographs of that cost before they ever order a single shot fired.

The sad and horrifying thing is, the British public understand that cost, at large, just look at the huge protest marches against Iraq 2, Afghanistan etc.
But in Argentina, even allegedly educated people are still falling for the Propoganda.
BBC interviewed recently, for example, a University graduate, who firmly believed that the United Kingdom invaded the Falklands in the 1970's, and the 1982 invasion, was in fact an attempt to liberate and protect Argentine citizens forced to live under the British Jackboot!!
This was an educated lass, with access to google, the internet etc, and yet that was her belief?!!!
It was genuinely shocking.


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## Foxbat (Dec 5, 2017)

We're getting a bit off topic here but I agree that the Belgrano was a legitimate target even if it was heading away from the exclusion zone as some claim. 

What many people fail to understand is that an exclusion zone is declared during conflict  mainly to warn off neutral vessels and to prevent unintended loss of life. It also is used to warn neutrals that if they aid the other side in a conflict, they themselves may be considered a legitimate target.  But under international law,  the heading and location of a belligerent vessel (in this case the Belgrano) has no bearing on its status as a target and the UK was therefore justified in sinking it given the threat it would pose to our own naval forces.


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## Montero (Dec 5, 2017)

There is a display about it in the submarine museum, with film, very interesting. There were various designs of torpedo in the weapons locker of the submarine and the captain of the submarine chose the oldest design - one that was basically WW2 design. When asked why that one, why not a newer fancier one, he said that the Belgrano was also a WW2 design, so the weapon matched the target.


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## Foxbat (Dec 5, 2017)

I must make an effort to visit that museum


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## Montero (Dec 5, 2017)

The whole Portsmouth Historic Dockyard is fascinating. You can get a season ticket for a year - which pays off if you are seeing a couple or more exhibits. The submarine museum includes two submarines - a WW1 one in an environmental chamber and a large 1960s one out on the quay - guided tours around it. There's also exhibitions at the armoury - stunning brick vaulted building that was the Napoleonic powder store and part of the "Explosion" museum about the manufacture and storage of gunpowder, cordite, etc and lots of guns of various periods. A chunk of armour plate from the Tirpitz battle ship - just sitting on the floor, didn't realise what it was at first. Thought it was a chest then got closer and realised it was solid metal to knee high. The word "plate" doesn't do the armour justice.
There is also a gunnery and torpedo museum - and you can see battleship guns up close and various gun turrets from 20th century and missile launchers. A WW1 gunship used at Gallipoli. And a big workshop - I mean big - where traditional boat building and restoration courses are run, with steam pinnaces and long boats upstairs - all open to the public. (Nice restaurant up there too.) Also a replica sailing ship mast you can climb. Adults can climb as well as kids. (All in safety harness.)
I'm hoping to go back next year to see The Victory, The Warrior and The Mary Rose (in its special building).
Also a water ferry across the harbour and a water borne tour of the harbour. They have special exhibitions as well in various buildings. Easily take you four days to do the lot.
Another great thing is that the guides are all retired Navy or dockyard personnel - and you are shown around the submarines by people who served on them and you get told all the details. In fact, if you stand or sit still for any period you will probably be approached by an enthusiast - we had an impromptu lecture while we were at a picnic table from a retired dockyard worker who'd worked at the explosive building and was telling us all about it from his time.


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## The Judge (Dec 5, 2017)

Just to echo Montero, it's definitely worth a trip to the Dockyard.  I'm not so interested in the more modern areas and exhibitions, but the Mary Rose alone is worth the price of admission.  The museum is incredible, but it's so jam-packed full of exhibits and information that each time I get into a state of overload and have to leave after a couple of hours, so I've had to do it in separate stages. The Victory is wonderful, too, of course, as is the associated museum and the boat-building workshop. 

One warning, unless you're staying in Portsmouth itself, use the Park and Ride which takes you virtually to the PHD gates -- parking nearer the museum is expensive.  And the queues to get in can be horrendous.


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## Montero (Dec 5, 2017)

Or the water bus. The submarine museum is at Gosport, just behind what was Haslar Hospital. Free parking and you can take the water bus across to the main historic dockyard.
Royal Navy Submarine Museum

Be aware that the last water bus back to the submarine museum can be over-subscribed - and if you don't make it onto the boat, you have to find your own way back to Gosport.....


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## Caledfwlch (Dec 5, 2017)

I haven't been to a military museum in years 

I think the last was in Chester - museum to whichever Regiment is (or given the cuts, may well now be was) recruited in Cheshire.
The thing that I remember most, was they had mannequins wearing ww1 era battle dress, and both the length of the Rifles, and the size of the guys wearing the uniforms, both appeared huge. It's a bit of a common myth I think these days, that is quickly being debunked - we are led to believe that people in the past were shorter than us, dietry issues amongst other things, but it appears that simply is not true.

Whilst I am veering back towards the actual subject of this thread (well the right war and period) 
I lived and worked in France and Flanders, accompanying British school groups on battlefield/cemetary etc tours.
And I saw photos whilst I was out there, but I never got to see the actual place, as whilst I was out there, we didnt have any groups from a Welsh school, only English, and 1 or 2 Scottish schools, and obviously, the tours apart from the "biggies" like Last Post at the Menin Gate were personalised to the region the school came from, and just from the photo's, the 2 most astonishing, wonderful and in so many ways, heartbreaking British Commonwealth memorials, beyond the Menin Gate and Thiepval, are the Irish Peace Park, and the Memorial to the 38th Welsh Division. I am determined to go back one day and see the 38th's Memorial in person, the Irish Peace Park was truly horrific, because the lay of the land is still pretty much the same, and you can see the hill where those poor soldiers were made to walk, not run, walk, at the German trenches - it's one of those truly chilling historical points - as you stand there, you can see the top of the village church, just over the top of the hill - in that church, at one point, lay a certain Corporal Adolph Hitler, being treated iirc for mustard gas inhalation.

For Welsh people, like me, the Memorial to the 38th Welsh Division has an added element of poignancy, because, in the first few hours of the start of the 3rd Battle of Ypres, a young man, a farmers son, Private Ellis Humphrey Evans amongst many others died.
He is known in Wales under his "Bardic" name as Hedd Wyn (Blessed Peace)

Hedd Wyn was a farmers son, working as a shepherd until conscripted, in North Wales. As a hobby he wrote poetry, winning a few times, at local Eisteddfod's. 
At the 1917 National Eisteddfod, which was held in Birkenhead, England (I think due to it having a large Welsh population).
At the final end, as was traditional, it was time to for the Ceremony of the Chairing of the Bard - where the greatest poet was "Chaired" Chief Bard of the Welsh, and literally given a wooden, carved chair.
As was also traditional, the trumpets sounded for the Winner to identify himself.
After the trumpets sounded twice more, the Archdruid, Dyfed solemnly announced to the expectant crowd, soon to be in tears that the Chief Bard Hedd Wyn had fallen in battle, 6 weeks before, and his Chair was draped in a black sheet, and given to his parents.
It's one of those utterly heartbreaking moments in history.


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## Biskit (Dec 6, 2017)

Caledfwlch said:


> The thing that I remember most, was they had mannequins wearing ww1 era battle dress, and both the length of the Rifles, and the size of the guys wearing the uniforms, both appeared huge. It's a bit of a common myth I think these days, that is quickly being debunked - we are led to believe that people in the past were shorter than us, dietry issues amongst other things, but it appears that simply is not true.



My maternal grandfather was just the right age to be too young for WWI and too old for WWII, so he was in the Home Guard in the 1940s.  When he died, we went through some of his photos, including platoon 'portraits' of the Home Guard.  In later pictures, Granddad is in the front row with sergeant's stripes, sitting beside the officer so the size issue is not so obvious, but in the earlier ones he is the slightly-built short guy standing in the back row.  The thing is, Granddad the short guy was 6 foot tall, built like the proverbial outhouse and earning a living as a car mechanic, so the hefty blokes towering over him were enormous.


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## Montero (Dec 6, 2017)

There was a comment in George McDonald Frazer's book, The General Danced at Dawn (an account of his time in the Gordon Highlanders, names a bit fudged...) when he comments on the short, wiry Glaswegians in the regiment and how Calendonians used to be famous as massive blokes - and how they were turned from massive to small by a couple of generations of city living. (And presumably less access to fresh food and fresh air.)


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## Foxbat (Dec 6, 2017)

That was a very touching story of Hedd Wyn (who I'm ashamed to say I had never heard of) and what a fine monument in your photo, Caledfwlch.
My grandfather took me to the Menin Gate when I was just a youngster but it's a place I never forgot. And neither did I forget the sad sight of row upon row of white headstones at the various cemeteries we visited.


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## Caledfwlch (Dec 6, 2017)

Foxbat said:


> That was a very touching story of Hedd Wyn (who I'm ashamed to say I had never heard of) and what a fine monument in your photo, Caledfwlch.
> My grandfather took me to the Menin Gate when I was just a youngster but it's a place I never forgot. And neither did I forget the sad sight of row upon row of white headstones at the various cemeteries we visited.



Whilst working there, I was in and around Ieper every week and each group would spend 1 day in Ieper, arriving around 9am, myself and the teachers would take the kids in to go around the "in Flanders Fields Museum" in the magnificent Cloth Hall building, then the kids would be sent off on their own, to spend the day, exploring the town, eat ludicrous amounts of Belgian Chocolate etc. After a pre-booked evening meal in one of the restaurants near the Cloth Hall, we would amble over to the gate for about 10 minutes to 8pm, and watch the crowds gathering, 2 local Politie Patrol Cars blocking the road to wheeled traffic at either end of the "Gate" which of course is more like a tunnel, there being so many names to display.
Lot's of things with such a regular repetition can become a bit "boring" or just lose their impact, just another day in the office, but the Last Post Ceremony never became like that, not for any of us Staff Members, that's for sure
- Usually we would have 3 different schools staying at our Accommodation Centre, an old Chateaux with the barns etc turned into Dormitory blocks, staff quarters, dining rooms, entertainment centre for the kids with Bar for staff and Teachers, and 1 of us would be in charge of a specific group, not all Schools were History classes studying WW1, some would be over as part of their French Class, exploring French cultural & language stuff, general tours of the area.
1 of us would be "given" a school each week to look after, and we would accompany them every day, on trips to the Ieper Salient, and over to the Somme, seeing memorials such as Thiepval, visiting places like the town of Albert (with the worst public toilets I have ever seen, and a street market that seemed almost entirely dedicated to Johnny Hallyday (kind of a French Elvis) memorabilia! (RIP Johnny, who died yesterday, there are a lot of middle aged French women in mourning today)

However, because the Last Post at the Menin Gate does not become routine, even seeing it every day, it retains it's emotional and deeply upsetting impact, a couple of lasses I worked with simply couldn't do it anymore after their first couple, they found it too upsetting, so I would take over from them on that day, and they would do whatever I was supposed to be doing, or we would swap my day off around that week, so I saw it more often than my coworkers, and it still never lost that impact, and the emotion it inspires. 

My second time, on my second week living out there was the most memorable, and a moment that made me ridiculously and probably unreasonably proud of the teens I was with! They were a bunch of 15 year old's from a School in Inner City Sheffield, proper rough and tough, not people to mess with (and that were just the female teachers!!! )
On that, their second day staying with us, as they had been the day before, when we went to the privately owned Sanctuary Woods Museum (the day What I call the "Grenade incident" happened!) they were loud, boisterous, having fun, not taking anything seriously, generally being a bit prattish well, teenagery I suppose. Instead of the usual having the run of the town for the day, as we were coming back on day 3, to do some other stuff, as there was no Standard Plan, each week was specifically tailored to the school and it's needs, and the 3rd day would be their afternoon away from the Teacher's eyes. So in the afternoon we got back on the Coach, and visited a really small Cemetery or Memorial, a bit closer to home for them - either a Sheffield or a Yorkshire raised Regiment, I forget which.

It was nowhere near the road - getting to the place, which was really small, meant a 15 minute walk, which unnerved them, especially the Teachers, given all the rusty shells lined up along the rough path, as the path led through actively farmed fields, then through a bit of wood.
I was jumpy as hell, which the Teachers picked up on quickly, and got even jumpier, as did the kids when I had to explain why - I had been given a bit of "training" by a professional Guide, in how to identify shell types, and it were bad enough at the start of the path, with the kids going right next to the Shells, taking photo's, posing etc, but a few mins in, there were suddenly a hell of a lot of Gas Shells, presumably Mustard, and these were of course, not the wreckage/remains/shrapnel of Shells, these were duds that had failed to go Bang, so we are talking about 90 year old rusted but still intact Shells filled with Gas, and I believe if one went off, the Gas would still be lethal. So that was a little.... unnerving, especially after the "Incident" the day before. 

When we got to the memorial/cemetery, you could see it was hitting home a little to the kids, where they were, seeing surnames and area/town names familiar to them from home on gravestones etc.
Then, it were back to the Coach, gingerly stepping down the path as quickly, and as carefully as possible, and back to Ieper for tea, then the Menin Gate.
As the crowds began gathering, the Politie turned up doing their road blocking thing, the Firemen with their trumpets arriving, the fact that something important really started hitting home, and these boisterous kids got quieter, and quieter, then the Ceremony began, and as the last post starts its haunting melody, I could see some of the girls were in tears, as were the Teachers, I hear sniffs, turn to my right, and 3 of the  loudest, chaviest lads were stood next to me, and all 3 of them were in tears too, a couple of the lasses moved over to them, and they put their arms around each other, it was a magical moment, seeing that despite their prior behaviour, they finally understood the horror of where they were, and it was affecting them as deeply as anyone, and I got a little bit emotional the first time I attended, but seeing those young lads openly crying, made me lose it a bit, and I got a bit more than a lump in my throat .
All their teachers were lasses, except for the Head of Year in charge, and 1 of them, Becky was very rock chick/gothy around my age and was frankly utterly gorgeous, and also had me both terrified and giggling like a kid myself on the walk past the Shells.

I had told the teachers we would be going "off road" doing hiking on a rough path, with a bit of a Hill (or at least the little humps the Flemish proudly call Hills ) So of course, imagine my shock, going into the Dining Room at 06:30 to have breakfast with them before leaving for Flanders at 7am, every one in hiking boots, or trainers, and generally dressed to go hiking around Snowdonia during a thunderstorm) - I told them they didn't need to bring the heavy coats etc, they just assumed they needed all that outdoorsy stuff because it were thick fog outside, so assumed it was going to be an unpleasant day for rambling through the Flemish countryside, but as I told them, every single morning we had thick fog ("Home" was near the town of Saint Omer in Nord Pas de Calais, France) I think someone had explained to me on arrival it was something to do with the land being so flat, the sea not being too far away, and the Sun heating the land all day, and that whilst it looked like it was going to be horrendous, by the time it got to 08:30 the fog will have burned away and it would be lovely, sunny and warm, probably with blue skies.
So you can imagine my shock, when Becky totters in, just a thin leather jacket, a Sisters of Mercy T-shirt she had DIY'd into a kind of crop top, miniskirt and knee boots with stiletto heels, bowing and grinning at all the wolf whistles from the young lads under her charge. Sisters of Mercy is one of my fave bands, and we had quite a chat the evening before, as off duty I was wearing a sex pistols shirt, and pentagram necklace, so she saw I was a fellow traveller.

As one can imagine, stiletto heels aren't great for a bit of rambling on a very rough path, and she was tottering all over the place, and I was convinced she was going to go pretty backside over elbow (to politely rephrase the slang) and land on a Gas shell or something equally catastrophic.  Still, at least my last sight on this earth would have been a beautiful lass, and aforementioned backside  Apparantly, "looking good" was more important than sense and sensibility!.

And when she saw me getting a little bit upset at the Last Post, she tottered over, in tears herself and put her arm around me, which I admit, helped make the moment even more magical. The lad immediately next to me, he was getting really upset, so I handed him some tissues, patted him on the back, and after the ceremony finished, the kids were all giving each other hugs, and that lad gave me one, and mumbled something about "thanks for not taking the mick" because at times, those first 2 days, when we weren't somewhere where messing about was disrespectful, like a memorial or cematery, I was laughing, joking, taking the mick out of them right back. That particular Last Post was one of those events you never forget.
And fair dues to them - these were tough kids, from rough families, most of them likely on benefits from an inner city, and once it hit home, they showed a wonderful example of humanity, especially in how they were comforting each other during and after. And despite the boisterousness and so on, the Teachers were clearly amazing at their job, and cared for the kids, and they had a good relationship with each other, laughing and joking.
I have taken middle class kids from the nice well to do parts of various towns or cities, all dreadfully polite, and taking everything seriously, and not a damp eye or sign of being emotionally affected amongst them, and all so formal and dreadfully polite with their teachers, well behaved, but kind of drone like

My Sheffield Kids, back at base in Ebblinghem, they and the teachers were mucking about together, playing football, baseball, pool table challenges, On a group's last night, we would do a Disco in their dining room, and the teachers were dancing along with them. The people from the "better areas" didn't do any of that, and they would barely communicate with us Staff beyond what was needed for doing our & their job. In the evenings, after tea, it was all "Rota's" some would go back to their rooms, and just stay their chatting amongst themselves, and from the bins, guzzling Wine whilst they were somewhere it was cheap and decent.  Those "Rota'd" to watch their kids until bedtime, would come, maybe grab a glass of wine or a pint from the Bar room we had at the back, then go and sit as far away from us Staff as possible, no sense of humour, snapping at the kids for the slightest infraction of whatever rules they were expected to adhere to, and in the mornings at breakfast would be really, really snappy, clearly not enjoying the hangovers from their fine wines 

Yes, we were Staff, some of us British some French, but we were still human beings, yet even when we were clearly off duty - ie sat in the bar room, or at the tables outside the (oddly enough) French doors in the Bar, having a drink and chat, hidden away from the kids, yet would be looking at us so disapprovingly for daring to be drinking - even though unlike many of them with their nice glass of Wine, WE were actually off duty. They also showed no politeness to the French staff, some of them didn't speak English, but the posh teachers would never politely ask, in French if they could speak english - "Excusez-moi, parlez-vous anglais, mon français est horrible?" is not hard to learn (excuse me, my french is dreadful do you speak English?) No Bonjour's, Bonsoir's, Merci's nowt. Just start rudely barking orders in English at them. Then complain to British staff members about the "bloody surly, rude French you have working here and why cant they speak English?" Yeah dude, YOUR in France, you chose to come, why not learn a few basic phrases, and show basic politeness...

The Sheffield Teachers especially, and other groups that were far less po-faced, would simply tell the kids to behave, don't burn the building down, try not to be too loud, let us enjoy a few drinks in peace, and everyones cool - we won't stand around being all teacherly with you, it's your fun time before bed too. And would then invade our bar and party with us  And OMG Teachers, especially tough Sheffield Lasses can Party when they want!!  I still remember the hangovers, "Sheffield Week" became Legend in Staff Lore, and it's probably still talked about 13 years later.


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## Foxbat (Dec 7, 2017)

That is a fine memory to have


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## Caledfwlch (Dec 7, 2017)

The German Cemetery/Memorial at Langemark in many ways is far more horrifying that the British Commonwealth ones.

instead of dozens and dozens of lines of gravestones vanishing off into the distance, its a tiny place, not much bigger than a large house.

You can't blame the Flemish of course, twice they were invaded and occupied by Germany, its not surprising they aren't prepared to give much land for such purposes to Germany. 

Langemark


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