# Not So Typical Fantasy



## rune (Sep 7, 2005)

Most fantasy stories are Good V Evil.  Which is fine, but do you ever crave, or have you come across fantasy books that arent so clear cut


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## Ash (Sep 7, 2005)

I'll take any opportunity to recommend China Mieville. Not clear cut or typical at all.

Michael Moorecock's Fantasy, especially the Elric books also have a lot of moral ambiguity.


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## rune (Sep 7, 2005)

I like China Mieville because he writes different types of stories  

I think Storm Constantine's Wraeththu would fall into this not quite such a typical fantasy too.  There is an agenda there but it's not good v evil


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## bendoran (Sep 7, 2005)

Eerikson's malazan tales arent black and white fantasy, very grey subject matter indeed. and well worth a read!!


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## Taltos (Sep 7, 2005)

First thing that comes to mind is Glen Cook and "Black Company" - Ok it's still fight between good and evil, but ...

PS. Sad that not many russian autghors are translated into english, there are very good fantasy stories abut non-traditional heroes. For example "Sword Guardian" by Nik Perumov a serie about good necromancer who is constantly followed by "evil" inquisition. "Lord of the rings - 300 years later" by the same author - where the elves aren't clear cut good guys and their enemies are just humans, not some evildoers - a lot of grey tones in that serie. Also a book called "diary of the dark lord" by Aleksandr Dihnov. Or Kirill Jeskov giving another spin to the "Lord of the Rings" stori (again) this time describing the events more from the real-world and the dark side POV.

Ok time to finish this letter, there are many such books written in russia, it seems they don't much like the clear cut good-evil fights that are predominant in western fantasy


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## Winters_Sorrow (Sep 7, 2005)

"Grunts" by Mary Gentle.
Evil vs good, an orcs-eye view


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## Brys (Sep 7, 2005)

Well, there are some, and I'm sure that the more I read, the more there will be that fits into this. BTW, Jay will almost certainly list all the decent books that do have good v evil, because doing the other would take too long.

R Scott Bakker, Glen Cook, Steven Erikson, JV Jones, Franz Kafka, Greg Keyes, Fritz Leiber, M John Harrison, George RR Martin, China Mieville, Michael Moorcock, Mervyn Peake, Steph Swainston, Gene Wolfe and Roger Zelazny all fit this I think. You could probably also argue that Donaldson's Thomas Covenant isn't, because of Covenant being a leper, but otherwise it's pretty clear cut.

IMO the best fantasy novels are the most ambiguous ones - often the darker novels as well.


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## Rane Longfox (Sep 7, 2005)

Winters_Sorrow said:
			
		

> "Grunts" by Mary Gentle.
> Evil vs good, an orcs-eye view


 
I saw that in the shop the other day, didn't seem like her usual stuff. Is it any good?



Brys, is that list non-typical? Steph Swainston I would argue is pretty typical stuff. Very good, but quite good vs. evil...


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## Princess Ivy (Sep 11, 2005)

hm, tough one. from sci-fi i could recomend DA. A lot of the Xanth trillogy are story based, with an agenda to solve or a quest to perform, those are usualy for personal growth and development of the characters. can't really think of any that are good vs evil except possibly nightmare. he seems to assume that his characters are. that is all. some are worse than others, but even the demons aren't nessiciarily evil. they act as demons do because that is who they are, if that makes any sense at all.


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## Brys (Sep 11, 2005)

caladanbrood said:
			
		

> I saw that in the shop the other day, didn't seem like her usual stuff. Is it any good?
> 
> 
> 
> Brys, is that list non-typical? Steph Swainston I would argue is pretty typical stuff. Very good, but quite good vs. evil...


 
Swainston you can argue is typical, but Jant Shira is pretty much an anti-hero, as are the Circle. There is a clear cut evil, but not a clear cut evil, or at least that's what it seemed to be to me. Also, I've only read JV Jones' Sword of Shadows series, which isn't good v evil much, but I don't know about her other series.


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## rune (Sep 12, 2005)

What about the unusual fantasy.  I think Mieville falls into that group too. Anyone else though?


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## Jay (Sep 12, 2005)

This segment of fantasy IMHO makes up the best authors and works in thw genre currently. Mievile, Gentle, and Moorcock has been mentioned, here are more:


Jeff VanderMeer
Zoran Zivkovic
M. John Harrison
Jeffrey Thomas
Michael Cisco
Paul di Filippo
Jeffrey Ford
John M. Ford
Susanna Clarke
Hal Duncan
Ian R. Macleod
Charles Stross
John C. Wright
Tamar Yellin
Kelly Link
Sean Stewart
Tim Pratt
Tim Lees
Chris Roberson
Graham Joyce
Charles de Lint
Michael Swanwick
K.J. Bishop
Catherynne M. Valente
Rhys Hughes
Geoff Ryman
Nick Mamatas
Vera Nazarian
Richard Bowes
Jonathan Carroll
Tim Powers
James Blaylock
John Crowley
Lucisu Shepard
Paul Witcover
Neal Stephensson


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## Rane Longfox (Sep 13, 2005)

rune said:
			
		

> What about the unusual fantasy. I think Mieville falls into that group too. Anyone else though?


Jeff Vandermeer is the next author who springs to mind in Mieville's category


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## rune (Sep 13, 2005)

I recognised some of the names in that list    Charles De Lint - he does write unusual fantasy stories.  I do find his work is more character driven and little fantasy though.

Graham Joyce is a very good author, Ive enjoyed a couple of his books.  Not alway sure how much of his stories will have a fantasy element though, some have alot some of little.
The ones that have a larger fantasy element are unusual though


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## GOLLUM (Sep 13, 2005)

I'll add Paul Kearney to that list too, an underrated current writer up there with some of my favs. In a similar vein to Glenn Cook and Steven Erikson or a harder edged Greg Keyes (Kingdom Of Thorn and Bone series).

Someone asked about JV Jones other books. YES they're much more clear cut good vs. evil than her best effort IMO, Sword Of Shadows series.


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## finvarre (Sep 13, 2005)

How about CS Friedman and CJ Cherryh  (the last one excluding her Ynefel/Fortress series)?

  certainly most of the Polish fantasy writers (if not all) tend to create more ambiguous characters and plots than the Western ones, no easy good vs evil fights, the same trend as in the Russian fantasy. The names include Andrzej Sapkowski, Feliks W Kres, Ewa Bialolecka.. to name just a few of them. But again - they weren't translated into English, even though Sapkowski has been translated with big success into many of the European languages, like German, French, Spanish, and, of course, Chech, Russian, Ukrainian... and other Slavian languages.

  Jay, that's a long list... but from what I gather, half of the authors mentioned are SF writers and not  fantasy - like Hal Duncan, for instance (though maybe they just write both SF and fantasy like John C Wright and I just don't know about it)


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## Jay (Sep 13, 2005)

> Jay, that's a long list... but from what I gather, half of the authors mentioned are SF writers and not fantasy - like Hal Duncan, for instance (though maybe they just write both SF and fantasy like John C Wright and I just don't know about it)


 
That's not correct. I'd say every author on that list has examples of fantasy written. Vellum is literal fantasy - sure it has a SF element, but it's Fantasy. Wright writes both, as does Stross, as does Swanwick, as does Stephenson.  Admittedly they all blur the lines which is essentially what the topic is about o nsoem levels. 

Most authors say they are SF authors now anyway - it's vogue.


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## rune (Sep 13, 2005)

GOLLUM said:
			
		

> I'll add Paul Kearney to that list too, an underrated current writer up there with some of my favs. In a similar vein to Glenn Cook and Steven Erikson or a harder edged Greg Keyes (Kingdom Of Thorn and Bone series).
> 
> Someone asked about JV Jones other books. YES they're much more clear cut good vs. evil than her best effort IMO, Sword Of Shadows series.


 
I have read a couple of Paul Kearney's books.  I only thought one of them was not a typical fantasy plotline. He is a good author, and very gritty. However I feel his plots are generally quite typical.


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## Pyan (Sep 13, 2005)

Maybe not your style but you could try Harry Turtledove's "Worldwar/Colonization" series, told from both sides of a conflict at once, and everyone convinced they're right.



BTW, Rune, I was born & bred in Cumbria - Penrith to be precise. Small world, innit!


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## dreamwalker (Sep 16, 2005)

no^^^
I kinda find it quite refreshing when it is just good vs evil. When its done well, I find the contrast very intreguing. It also makes things like betrayal and rebirth have more impact.


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## rune (Sep 16, 2005)

pyanfaruk said:
			
		

> Maybe not your style but you could try Harry Turtledove's "Worldwar/Colonization" series, told from both sides of a conflict at once, and everyone convinced they're right.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, Rune, I was born & bred in Cumbria - Penrith to be precise. Small world, innit!


 
Wow, it is a small world


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## don sky (Sep 16, 2005)

Pokemon?
Myself, I'm for the whole ambiguous and deeply complex plots coz it makes the outcome more satisfying. Also the whole dealing with extremes is too common and I believe a good book is one that makes the "grey cells" work and ponder!


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## Rane Longfox (Sep 17, 2005)

don sky said:
			
		

> Pokemon?


 
HELL NO 
From a game called "Golden Sun"


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