# Batwoman



## Foxbat (Apr 20, 2020)

I’ve watched the first three episodes and I’m pretty underwhelmed. I honestly can see no good reason why this is on TV. We have the standard hero motivated by a childhood trauma who turns vigilante whilst juggling complicated personal issues.  The villains so far are a pretty poor bunch. I’ve seen more threatening and competent characters on shows like The World’s Craziest Fools.

How many more times can a writer come up with a family tragedy being the driving force behind the creation of a superhero (or even just a hero) and still maintain some semblence of originality or credibility.  The whole thing has been done so many times now that it really exposes the shortcomings of the whole superhero genre. If it were a roast in the oven, it would be cooked to charcoal by now.

By my reckoning, and given the number of family tragedies in warzones across the world, planet Earth must be due a glut of masked crimefighters so I see no reason to spend any more time giving this show a chance.


----------



## Mouse (Apr 20, 2020)

I watched the first ep. Enjoyed it, but not enough to bother with any more of it.


----------



## BAYLOR (Apr 20, 2020)

The show  takes it self too seriously to the point that it's not even fun to watch.


----------



## HoopyFrood (Apr 20, 2020)

I mean, yeah, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in the DC universe especially that hasn't suffered some kind of trauma. I guess it's that whole arc of a hero, rising up and facing hardship etc.

Batwoman is my favourite comic character. I haven't watched the TV series because I don't watch much new stuff these days, and I knew they'd change a lot about her for the new DC TV universe. I like Ruby Rose as her though, she's got the right look and attitude. I've looked at the synopsis and her back story and to be honest, it's even more traumatic in the comics.

However, her real purpose for taking up the bat mantle is different. She comes from a military background and served in the army first, but was there when 'Don't ask, don't tell' was a thing. She refused to lie about who she is and so was discharged. She had a few lost years, still wanting to serve, and eventually had a run in with Batman (she'd already essentially saved herself when he turned up). She saw the Bat symbol as a uniform and took it up as her way to serve and protect.

Unfortunately they then went and retconned everything and made her into Bruce's cousin, a move I've never agreed with.

Anyway, that's her origins in the comics. She still does have the childhood trauma, and all her stuff with her twin coming back as a villain, but her real motivation is her military background and finding a cause to serve. It's something I wish they hadn't moved away from, because it does make her different, and gave her far more agency and choice, rather than this whole 'she's family, it was basically her fate!'


----------



## CupofJoe (Apr 20, 2020)

I thought the second ep was better than the first. Was it a 2 hour intro in the US?
And ep 3 sort of began to bring things together. I still thing it has got  along way to go before it gets good. 
But I can't see how a TV show can maintain a superhero story line for too long. Most of them become boring fairly quickly.


----------



## .matthew. (Apr 20, 2020)

The big two retcon and recycle everything and have for so long it's not worth paying attention to. It's impossible to let a character die when there's still money on the table and we'll be seeing the same heroes and same arcs for decades to come.


----------



## Ursa major (Apr 20, 2020)

HoopyFrood said:


> She comes from a military background and served in the army first, but was there when 'Don't ask, don't tell' was a thing. She refused to lie about who she is and so was discharged.


This is still in the show. Never having read the comics about Batwoman (I think it was the end of the 60s when I last bought (or had bought for me) a DC or Marvel comic), I've no idea if the associated personal issue -- her lover denying their relationship, staying in the services and working in the Kane family business (private security) -- was in them.


----------



## Foxbat (Apr 20, 2020)

CupofJoe said:


> But I can't see how a TV show can maintain a superhero story line for too long. Most of them become boring fairly quickly.


I gave up on The Flash for this very reason. I remember thinking around season four:  not another speedster villain.


----------



## BAYLOR (Apr 20, 2020)

CupofJoe said:


> I thought the second ep was better than the first. Was it a 2 hour intro in the US?
> And ep 3 sort of began to bring things together. I still thing it has got  along way to go before it gets good.
> But I can't see how a TV show can maintain a superhero story line for too long. Most of them become boring fairly quickly.



I would like to see the  CW revive *Constantine. *It would be a very good replacement for *Supernatural * which is finishing  it's run.


----------



## ginny (Apr 20, 2020)

I've watched them all so far and though there were plenty of cringe moments throughout--they have, in the latest episodes, done some things well.


----------



## Bagpuss (May 20, 2020)

Well, it's been renewed for season 2. Although Ruby Rose has quit the show.


----------



## BAYLOR (May 21, 2020)

Bagpuss said:


> Well, it's been renewed for season 2. Although Ruby Rose has quit the show.



Thats going to be potential problem for the show.


----------



## Bagpuss (May 21, 2020)

BAYLOR said:


> Thats going to be potential problem for the show.



The producers have already indicated that they intend to re-cast the role. So the character of Kate Kane will remain, but she'll be played by someone else. It's probably an easier solution than introducing a new lead character.


----------



## Droflet (May 21, 2020)

Having suffered through this show I am astounded that it was renewed. Constantine gone, this rubbish renewed??? What a world.


----------



## Foxbat (May 21, 2020)

Droflet said:


> Having suffered through this show I am astounded that it was renewed. Constantine gone, this rubbish renewed??? What a world.


Agreed. This was the producers’ chance to not only cut and run after only one season but to save face and say something like they couldn’t continue without her rather than having to admit the show utterly sucks.


----------



## .matthew. (May 21, 2020)

Constantine was the last good one, although I am happy they pulled the actor in to do the animated Justice League Dark films. DC has always been better at the animation than live action.


----------



## Glaysher (May 21, 2020)

Droflet said:


> Having suffered through this show I am astounded that it was renewed. Constantine gone, this rubbish renewed??? What a world.


Different networks making those decisions.


----------



## Foxbat (May 24, 2020)

Recently watched an episode of Harley Quinn (the one where Harley puts her gang together - Clayface and the psycho midget...can't remember his name). I thought it was well made, very funny and much better than Batwoman.


----------



## Ursa major (May 24, 2020)

Foxbat said:


> I thought it was well made, very funny and much better than Batwoman.


If Penny had realised that her talent lay in voice acting, she may never have married Leonard Hofstadter....


----------



## BAYLOR (May 25, 2020)

.matthew. said:


> Constantine was the last good one, although I am happy they pulled the actor in to do the animated Justice League Dark films. DC has always been better at the animation than live action.



Id like to see the CW  give a live action Constantine series a second chance . I think thwart has the live live action series been on the CW, it would still be on the air.


----------



## .matthew. (May 25, 2020)

BAYLOR said:


> Id like to see the CW  give a live action Constantine series a second chance . I think thwart has the live live action series been on the CW, it would still be on the air.



True, it could definitely have worked, but I think Constantine benefited from being on the gritter side and CW doesn't tend to do that well (being largely YA targeted).

Even if on another network, from what I've seen, the pure DC characters don't translate well to live action at all (I say pure because Hellblazer was under their Vertigo branding which has also spun off Lucifer and Preacher). Even Nolan's Batman trilogy wasn't great (I did really like the first one and the second was good, but don't get me started on the plot holed mess of number three).


----------



## BAYLOR (May 25, 2020)

.matthew. said:


> True, it could definitely have worked, but I think Constantine benefited from being on the gritter side and CW doesn't tend to do that well (being largely YA targeted).
> 
> Even if on another network, from what I've seen, the pure DC characters don't translate well to live action at all (I say pure because Hellblazer was under their Vertigo branding which has also spun off Lucifer and Preacher). Even Nolan's Batman trilogy wasn't great (I did really like the first one and the second was good, but don't get me started on the plot holed mess of number three).



Sadly, \my knowledge of graphic novels and  comics is weak to say the least.  I know  the basics but that's about it.  Before the Keau Revive film, I had never before heard of Constantine before.  Nor Lucifer art Preacher before their subsequent tv series incarnations . 

I don't know how true this but many who have foundtheur to fantsy and science fction did so because of Comics and Graphic novels.  I wasn't one of those who did so.   The two wrier which got me interested  were Robert E Howard and Harlan Ellison.


----------



## Glaysher (May 25, 2020)

BAYLOR said:


> Id like to see the CW  give a live action Constantine series a second chance . I think thwart has the live live action series been on the CW, it would still be on the air.


I'd prefer that to them forcing Constantine into Legends of Tomorrow where he feels out of place.


----------



## Night_Eternal (May 31, 2020)

DC has/had a ton of shows, though I wasn't too sold on any of them. Tried watching the Flash and Supergirl shows and lost interest real quick. Batwoman got awful reviews (plus I don't even enjoy her character in the comics) from pretty much everyone I trust, and even people that I don't. I'm too daggone busy these days to check out any more formulaic superhero shows/movies, and I'm a comic fan from way back!

I was interested in the Swamp Thing show, being a HUGE fan of Alan Moore's run on that book, but not sure how much Moore-ism's they injected into it, if any. Shame it got cancelled, though. Swampy is an amazing character with a lot of potential and crossover appeal, but it would really take the right people to make it great.


----------



## BAYLOR (Jun 7, 2020)

Bagpuss said:


> The producers have already indicated that they intend to re-cast the role. So the character of Kate Kane will remain, but she'll be played by someone else. It's probably an easier solution than introducing a new lead character.



They could do the same thing the did in season 9 of Dallas.  It was all a dream.


----------



## The Ace (Jun 7, 2020)

I just don't get it.

We had the lousy, "Agents of SHIELD," the dreadful, "Smallville," and now a series so bad, the lead character quit.

I think we need someone to sit in an office, until some hack comes up with another stupid idea, and give him a sharp slap - preferably with a monkey-wrench.


----------



## Glaysher (Jun 8, 2020)

Bagpuss said:


> The producers have already indicated that they intend to re-cast the role. So the character of Kate Kane will remain, but she'll be played by someone else. It's probably an easier solution than introducing a new lead character.


They've changed their minds on this.  An all new character will be introduced.


----------



## Bagpuss (Jun 8, 2020)

Glaysher said:


> They've changed their minds on this. An all new character will be introduced.



Yeah, I saw the report the other day. Somehow, I can't help feeling it's the wrong choice. It's not as though the show is an ensemble piece, where swapping out and replacing a character is fairly easy.

I mean, if Patrick Stewart had decided to leave Star Trek:TNG at the end of season 1, then he could have been replaced by another captain with barely a ripple. But this entire show revolves around the character of Kate Kane. The main villain is her sister, her father's the head of the police (sort of), all of the other major characters are either her family or her exes. The only character who doesn't have a personal relationship with her is Luke Fox. To suddenly remove that character from the show is going to create a massive hole.

I could understand it if they'd gone through an audition process for re-casting the character and decided that they couldn't find anyone suitable to replace Rose as Kate Kane. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Whilst re-casting the role would be awkward, the audience would be likely to roll with it, especially if the new actor was an improvement on Rose.

Ultimately, it's all going to come down to how well the writers execute the change and the reasons they give for it. Looking at the rather ham-fisted way in which they moved from Batwoman's appearance in the Elseworlds cross-over to the pilot of the main series, I'm not optimistic.


----------



## Foxbat (Apr 26, 2021)

I've just seen the first two episodes of Batwoman season 2 and let me say the actress playing the new Batwoman is an excellent choice. I've never seen her in anything before but I think she's a damn fine actress. It's just a pity she has to work with scripts that can only be described as drivel.

Let's step back a moment to season 1 to explain my biggest gripe. Kate Kane came from an army background and so her expertise in unarmed combat came as no surprise. This new Batwoman is a wrongly convicted ex-con who can suddenly sweep kick, jab etc. with the best of them. It's utterly ridiculous! It's as if she's had exactly the same training as Kate.

I know this is a fantasy show but it's a fantasy based on a close approximation of our own real world. In our world, people don't suddenly become combat experts just by donning a suit and a cape. There's something called (and I'll spell it out for the scriptwriters) T. R. A. I.N.I.N.G.

I would have found this more believable if the new Batwoman had suffered a couple of heavy defeats (escaping, of course, in the nick of time before her life is snuffed out). I'd expect the next couple of episodes to be about accepting the harsh reality that wearing a suit is not enough. But no. These scriptwriters treat the viewers like morons. They can be lazy safe in the knowledge that the fanboys and fangirls will just accept it because...hey...it's Batwoman don'tya know?

Wrong.

I know five year olds that could write better scripts than this. There are writers on this very forum with far superior skills to the ones on this show so the question has to be asked - how on earth did they get the gig? Did they get drafted in from the current crop of Dr Who scriptwriters by any chance?

Anyway. That's it for me. A fine actress cannot polish a turd on her own. She needs lots of help but I fear she's not going to get it. No more Batwoman for me.


----------



## Droflet (Apr 26, 2021)

You took the words, and a lot more besides, right out of my mouth. Dreck.


----------



## CupofJoe (Apr 26, 2021)

Foxbat said:


> I've just seen the first two episodes of Batwoman season 2 and let me say the actress playing the new Batwoman is an excellent choice. I've never seen her in anything before but I think she's a damn fine actress. It's just a pity she has to work with scripts that can only be described as drivel.
> 
> Let's step back a moment to season 1 to explain my biggest gripe. Kate Kane came from an army background and so her expertise in unarmed combat came as no surprise. This new Batwoman is a wrongly convicted ex-con who can suddenly sweep kick, jab etc. with the best of them. It's utterly ridiculous! It's as if she's had exactly the same training as Kate.
> 
> ...


I agree. There was a single sentence with her Parole Officer about getting a job at a Dojo or something because of her martial arts skill... Oh that answers all the questions, no need to explain any more.
I'm not always a fan of mini-arch in series [because they always seem to get in the way of the main story], but this was crying our for such a thing, Letting the new Bat Woman learn her role... and its costs.


----------



## Ursa major (Apr 26, 2021)

Foxbat said:


> would have found this more believable if the new Batwoman had suffered a couple of heavy defeats (escaping, of course, in the nick of time before her life is snuffed out). I'd expect the next couple of episodes to be about accepting the harsh reality that wearing a suit is not enough. But no. These scriptwriters treat the viewers like morons. They can be lazy safe in the knowledge that the fanboys and fangirls will just accept it because...hey...it's Batwoman don'tya know?


And it isn't as if they've just put another person in the suit and not really changed the scripts. Did no-one think, "We've got to put all this stuff about Kate Kane disappearing and how the new suit wearer came into the picture, so why not do it properly?" It isn't as if what Batwoman is doing at the moment (give or take responding to Alice's madness**), requires her to be fully up to speed with the fighting (and the "stunt-driver" driving) from the get go, other than to convince Luke and Mary that someone has to wear the suit and Ryan should be that person.

They could, instead, have had Ryan seeing the suit as her way of finding and dealing with Alice and simply refusing to give it up. (As we saw, she can cut the link with the control centre, so there wasn't that much they could do about this, and it would have added an extra -- and more fleshed-out -- ongoing tension beyond her deciding to kill Alice why she had the chance.) After all, Batwoman is meant to be an investigator of crime as much as someone who just happens to appear where hi-tech assisted fighting is required, so we could also have seen Ryan gradually learning how to do that in making real her fantasy of revenge against Alice, one that she'd been using to keep herself together while in prison. (This would also make her into a darker character, which would have made things more interesting as the show progressed.)


** - Given that lot of Alice's day-to-day actions are sort of random (though loosely fitting within her agenda), they don't _have_ to involve the threat to potentially thousands of people every time.


----------



## .matthew. (Apr 26, 2021)

Foxbat said:


> I know five year olds that could write better scripts than this.


Doesn't this apply to all the DC live-action though? I tried to like most of them but they were utterly terrible. 

I even gave that Stargirl one a shot but besides it being consistently terrible throughout the first episode, what really annoyed me was that the telekinetic villain uses a key to open his secret room... if you're telekinetic you would make a room impossible to open without that power, instead of keeping the key for it in a desk 6 feet away....


----------



## Foxbat (Apr 26, 2021)

.matthew. said:


> Doesn't this apply to all the DC live-action though? I tried to like most of them but they were utterly terrible.


Yes, pretty much. I initially enjoyed the Flash untilI I realised we were getting speedster after speedster as a villain. I gave up bored to tears in the end. There’s only so much hero/villain outrunning each other a person can take.


----------



## BAYLOR (Apr 26, 2021)

.matthew. said:


> Doesn't this apply to all the DC live-action though? I tried to like most of them but they were utterly terrible.
> 
> I even gave that Stargirl one a shot but besides it being consistently terrible throughout the first episode, what really annoyed me was that the telekinetic villain uses a key to open his secret room... if you're telekinetic you would make a room impossible to open without that power, instead of keeping the key for it in a desk 6 feet away....



I watched about 3 or 4 episodes of that wretched tv show and gave up on it. 


Foxbat said:


> Yes, pretty much. I initially enjoyed the Flash untilI I realised we were getting speedster after speedster as a villain. I gave up bored to tears in the end. There’s only so much hero/villain outrunning each other a person can take.



The Flash ran out of good story ideas after about the the 3rd season


----------



## .matthew. (Apr 26, 2021)

BAYLOR said:


> The Flash *ran out* of good story idea after about the the 3rd season


I feel this deserves either applause or a slap. I can't decide


----------



## BAYLOR (Apr 26, 2021)

Foxbat said:


> I've just seen the first two episodes of Batwoman season 2 and let me say the actress playing the new Batwoman is an excellent choice. I've never seen her in anything before but I think she's a damn fine actress. It's just a pity she has to work with scripts that can only be described as drivel.
> 
> Let's step back a moment to season 1 to explain my biggest gripe. Kate Kane came from an army background and so her expertise in unarmed combat came as no surprise. This new Batwoman is a wrongly convicted ex-con who can suddenly sweep kick, jab etc. with the best of them. It's utterly ridiculous! It's as if she's had exactly the same training as Kate.
> 
> ...



The writing on this show is pretty wretched, Im surprised it got a second season.


----------



## BAYLOR (Apr 26, 2021)

.matthew. said:


> I feel this deserves either applause or a slap. I can't decide



By and large , these  shows have run out good story ideas. Its time to retire them and move on.


----------



## .matthew. (Apr 26, 2021)

BAYLOR said:


> By and large , these shows have run out good story ideas. Its time to retire them and move on.


Surely you jest, good sir?

Jingle bells, Batman smells,
Robin laid an egg,
Batmobile lost a wheel,
And reboots all the way.


----------



## BAYLOR (Apr 26, 2021)

.matthew. said:


> Surely you jest, good sir?
> 
> Jingle bells, Batman smells,
> Robin laid an egg,
> ...



No, I don't jest. 


But I do think the Superhero Genre is on the wain.


----------



## .matthew. (Apr 27, 2021)

BAYLOR said:


> But I do think the Superhero Genre is on the wain.


I agree, but I've thought that for years. I have never understood how people could read and obsess over the same storylines retold in the comics a thousand times. Basically, every hero falls into one of a handful of archetypes and they all use the same stories until it all begins again.

At least sci-fi shows try and do it with new characters, comics just recycle over and over


----------

