# Age and the internet.



## Foxbat (Jul 30, 2020)

What prompted me to start this thread was a news item about Argos ceasing printing their catalogue in favour of online browsing. One director ( of another company) when interviewed said ‘everybody uses the internet’.
Err. No, they don’t. Internet usage in the UK is sitting around 90.64% and Age UK have statistics showing that around 4.2 million people over 65 don’t use it. 


			https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/reports-and-publications/reports-and-briefings/active-communities/rb_july16_older_people_and_internet_use_stats.pdf
		


That’s  a lot of people and their purchasing power being discarded by companies with the attitude that ‘everybody does it now’. 

So who’s missing out? The vendors or potential customers? Both probably.

Even among older users, the scope of their usage is extremely narrow and, funnily enough, as I get older, 
I find my own width of usage shrinking dramatically. I visit a couple of forums, do a bit of shopping (not a lot and never grocery shopping online) and that’s about it for me. I don’t do very much else and my time online has shrunk dramatically in the last ten years. Writing this piece will have been the longest period online today.

 So maybe I’m starting to drift into these Age UK numbers. Maybe I’m becoming a statistic.

There is something called ‘internet by proxy’ and my mum (who’s 80) falls into this bracket because I sometimes do a bit of shopping online for her (mainly her favourite mints, which are difficult to find in shops around here). Around 25% of elderly people do this. But what about the other 75%?

But I suppose the real point I’m trying to make is that many older folk are isolated already and don’t feel able to learn new skills. Or perhaps are a little scared of technology, or maybe just can’t afford monthly internet bills. 

So, next time you’re Youtubing or whatever, have a think. Is there something an elderly relative or friend could do with when you’re online because, let’s face it, being able to help somebody out has got to be better than looking at the latest cute cat photos.


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## Matteo (Jul 30, 2020)

I think the important question that comes to mind from your post, is 
_
What are those mints?_

But seriously, hence my "like", I agree with you (re. my own usage and your sentiment). Sadly, the relatively low numbers probably don't concern most companies - and the printing costs (especially for something like the brick that is the Argos catalogue - on which my wife broke her toe some years back...) must be substantial.  

It would also help if companies made their sites less flashy and interactive and more simple to use and order products.  That would encourage older people to use the internet.  But that is not the direction things are going.


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## Danny McG (Jul 30, 2020)

Foxbat said:


> being able to help somebody out has got to be better than looking at the latest cute cat photos


Heresy! That's why we *have* an internet


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## Venusian Broon (Jul 30, 2020)

Yeah, but as the report states 60% of the people that say they don't use the internet, the reason given is that they just don't need it. So they seem quite happy with things the way they are.

A quarter of people over 65 stated they used the internet by proxy so they are getting help as you state, and by a quick google, I see that about 400,000+ elderly people, therefore ~10% of your initial figure, live in care homes and are very likely to part of the non-internet part. That is rapidly accounting for most of the 4.2 million and most people seem either cared for or just not requiring the internet.


So what percentage of that number still use printed catalogues? I'd bet not many at all. (Catalogues are such a 70s memory for me. Haven't seen one in a good 40 years since then  )

As for Argos, you have to use a pad to get anything from their stores anyway, which is essentially their website. They must have the numbers on how much trade they are getting from people using pen and paper from their catalogue or by phone (I assume, I'm not sure if Argos did the mail order thing as of now) so can make a economic decision based on that. Also if the reason you give is that people can't afford the monthly internet bills and so aren't on using internet, then that means they don't have the purchasing power that is likely to sway a big company. 

Re Matteo's point. Actually I think websites are much easier to use now. My parents - aged 75 are using the internet and technology _much _more than they ever did when younger. They were part of the generation that mobile phones were definitely _car _phones and car phones only, but now are quite happy to be face down in whatsapp, setting up video calls or (definitely) buying on the internet. Purely anecdotal, I know, but I can remember the clunky monstrosities of the late 00's websites and e-commerce 1.0...


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## Matteo (Jul 30, 2020)

My folks (same age) also use the internet - but complain about it (and my sister get's a lot of "how do you..." phone calls).  I was also thinking that older people have older pcs/tablets/etc. that can't always handle the newer, flashier websites.


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## HareBrain (Jul 30, 2020)

Venusian Broon said:


> Catalogues are such a 70s memory for me. Haven't seen one in a good 40 years since then



My mum was an agent for Burlington. The number of hours I spent leafing through the catalogue** fitting out my "dream home" with all manner of tasteless 70s tat is beyond calculation. We're talking cheap chandeliers and globe-shaped drinks cabinets here. I was a very sophisticated ten-year-old.

**No, this isn't going where you think it's going


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## Vladd67 (Jul 30, 2020)

Venusian Broon said:


> Yeah, but as the report states 60% of the people that say they don't use the internet, the reason given is that they just don't need it. So they seem quite happy with things the way they are.
> 
> A quarter of people over 65 stated they used the internet by proxy so they are getting help as you state, and by a quick google, I see that about 400,000+ elderly people, therefore ~10% of your initial figure, live in care homes and are very likely to part of the non-internet part. That is rapidly accounting for most of the 4.2 million and most people seem either cared for or just not requiring the internet.
> 
> ...


I can remember seeing an episode of the gadget show where someone was sat in an empty house with only a computer with internet connection and a credit card and they had to compete with someone with a van and a credit card in furnishing the house. Of course now it is practically impossible to buy furniture in person from a store and take it away that day.


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## -K2- (Jul 30, 2020)

I'd have no problem with the internet if the dang microphone would just work...







K2


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## thaddeus6th (Jul 30, 2020)

I do think this'll start spreading to an extent down the demographic age bands as time passes. Some people won't want the internet much at all, others will just use it a little, and once the novelty wears off I wouldn't be surprised if online usage declines somewhat before levelling off.

It's immensely useful in lots of ways, but, like lots of technology, can have its value overestimated.

For what it's worth, I don't use it much beyond a standard set of sites.


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## Foxbat (Jul 30, 2020)

The thing is about folk that think they don't need it...in many cases the choice is out of their hands. Society won't let them not need it. My mum being an example. She doesn't need it she says, but yesterday she got a letter about her car insurance. The company was offering her a partial refund because of the pandemic and because the car spent a long time not being used. It appears, however, that this can only be claimed online. So, although she doesn't need it, in some ways that are outwith her control, she does (and I suspect others will be in the same boat).

She was going to contact the company by phone today but i don't know the outcome yet.

I'll be honest, when it comes to doing things online like booking dental appointments, repeat prescriptions, direct debits etc. I absolutely detest it and would much rather interact with a human any day of the week. I keep my banking and stuff to an absolute minimum on the net because, frankly, I just don't trust it. I'll give an example - A few years ago I paid my credit card bill (£400 at the time) online only to be met with a message saying that an error had ocurred. Please try again. So I did and it worked. Amount paid. Then when I received my paper statement (I still insist on hardcopy) I found that I'd actually paid £800 and was £400 in credit. I just let it lie because it wouldn't break me financially but I called them and set up a direct debit instead to make sure something like that never happened again.


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## Overread (Jul 30, 2020)

Banks are pushing for you to use the internet more and more as well, often as not the person behind the counter at your local branch isn't trained nor allowed to do all that much. Furthermore the other options are a telephone call which can be a VERY long time (even before corona slowed things down to snails pace) and be quite complicated to follow along with (not made easier by cheap lines and local accents from half a world away). 

So the internet becomes the fastest and most convenient way to do things and sometimes, as noted above, the only way to easily do things. 

I can see it reaching a point in my life time when the internet shifts into the same bracket as water and electricity as an essential utility. Sure if you don't pay they won't cut you off, but will throttle your speed to a snails pace etc...


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## hitmouse (Jul 30, 2020)

For Argos this is a no-brainer, business-wise. I think it is already the 3rd biggest online retailer in the UK. The catalogue is expensive to produce, and must give diminishing returns. I have to say the experience of shopping at an Argos store is an odd and unsatisfying one for me.


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## Foxbat (Jul 31, 2020)

Overread said:


> I can see it reaching a point in my life time when the internet shifts into the same bracket as water and electricity as an essential utility. Sure if you don't pay they won't cut you off, but will throttle your speed to a snails pace etc...


I think in many ways, it’s probably already at this point. It’s just that a lot of folk (myself included) don’t quite grasp that yet or are just too stuck in the old ways.


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## Dave (Jul 31, 2020)

I understand the sentiment @Foxbat but I expect that among that 4.2 million people over 65 there will be a large proportion that cannot read the print in the catalogue because it is too small: or are unable to live independently and so would have someone else order for them. The cost saving for Argos must be huge and Amazon et al do not produce paper catalogues. When you visit the Argos shop in person it is quite easy to search at their terminals in-store (I did this recently and it is better because half the products are out of stock in any case).

The wider issue of the internet now being indispensable i.e. for banking and paying bills is how to teach those 4.2 million people over 65  who can still live independently how to use it is a valid one and there used to be _silver surfers_ classes.

The other issue of the death of the High Street is also important. In another life I used to be involved in trying to revive a High Street and we came to the conclusion that High Streets must become destinations in their own right, where the experience of shopping i.e. market trading and activities made it a pleasant and exciting interactive experience. Lower business rates, parking charges and rents are also key as online shops obviously don't pay any, but even achieving that isn't enough. However, I used to hear from from people who wanted us to return to some golden age they had dreamed of when every High Street had an independent butcher, baker and candlestick maker. This is totally unrealistic, mainly because it was those exact same people who never shopped at those shops when they were in the High Street, but instead went out of town, online and to supermarkets. The High Street can only survive if people actually support it by buying things. It can't be just a museum.


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## Vladd67 (Jul 31, 2020)

We are so lucky in our village, population around 3500, we have a chemist, a Co op, a small corner shop, a butchers, a Chinese take away / fish and chip shop, an Indian take away, an Indian restaurant / take away, a butchers / grocers, two barbers, a hair dressers, two estate agents, a vets, a pub, and a shoe shop. Until recently we had a hardware store but the owner retired, and a florist who also retired. The post office used to be in its own small shop but has been moved into the chemist. We also used to have a micro brewery but that too has closed its brands now being produced by a brewery in Northampton. Our high street is a special place for the village and has actually seen an increase in business since the lock down as people find it too much hassle to shop in town. With respect to age and the internet I have noticed more supermarket delivery vans in the village so more people must be shopping on line, though our local butcher has moved with the times and has a website where you can place orders which they then deliver.


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## Foxbat (Jul 31, 2020)

Dave said:


> This is totally unrealistic, mainly because it was those exact same people who never shopped at those shops when they were in the High Street, but instead went out of town, online and to supermarkets. The High Street can only survive if people actually support it by buying things. It can't be just a museum.


How true.  I invested in a local community run high street baker (along with many others) and it's surviving but not really thriving because most folk would prefer to go to Asda etc. or order food online. There was a lot of vocal support for the community bakery but that didn't really translate into footfall. Also, and here's the clincher, sales have suffered because local hotels prefer to buy their bread from the local Asda. Granted, Asda can produce and sell in greater volume and therefore be cheaper. Last year was poor and the next couple of years will probably be crucial for the business. I don't expect it to survive with another poor year and this pandemic might just kill it off.

At least I can say I put my money where my mouth is


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## Matteo (Jul 31, 2020)

Vladd67 said:


> We also used to have a micro brewery but that too has closed its brands now being produced by a brewery in Northampton.



Shame.  Any change in quality?


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## Vladd67 (Jul 31, 2020)

Don’t know haven’t seen it on sale anywhere


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## -K2- (Jul 31, 2020)

They say you can get food through the internet. But, I have to tell you, when I lick the monitor it just tastes like dirty plastic to me 


K2


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## .matthew. (Jul 31, 2020)

We have to remember as well that however 'nice' local shops might be, the fact remains that big companies can be cheaper and more diverse, while the internet even more so. All hail the internet


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## Dave (Jul 31, 2020)

.matthew. said:


> We have to remember as well that however 'nice' local shops might be, the fact remains that big companies can be cheaper and more diverse, while the internet even more so. All hail the internet


They could! However, in practice. you find the same chain shops selling the same products: their products and decor all determined at a corporate level. That in turn makes every street in every town look the same. It is what sells best and what people buy that determines what is stocked. My point is that if people really want it to change then they need to show it with their spending. It is no good complaining about it while secretly really liking it.

The problem is that even the chains are leaving the High Street now. I think we will regret that. IMHO even if you go into a shop, try out the product, then order it online and have it delivered, we still need that local High Street presence, but I cannot stop the tide turning.


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## Astro Pen (Jul 31, 2020)

The vulnerability of old people to online fraud is staggering. I contemplated getting my old mother a PC  for emails and nostalgic browsing but decided that the risk was just too great. She would not be able to tell the difference between phishing and genuine emails for example.  
What is needed is a limited "Geriweb" browser loaded with safeguards like we use for kids. But I think internet banking for that generation is best avoided altogether. They will be the last 'net illiterate' generation so it is a transient consideration.


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## Foxbat (Aug 1, 2020)

Astro Pen said:


> The vulnerability of old people to online fraud is staggering


I'm off topic slightly but vulnerability in real life too. 

During lockdown, my mum was visited by two people in face visors telling her they could get her a cheaper energy deal. She had the good sense not to let them in. My thoughts when I found out were _why the hell were they doing this in the middle of lockdown_? I told her at the time that if anybody like that called again to phone the police. It could have been genuine but if it was, the company responsible was being staggeringly incompetent or simply heartless and cynical by cashing in on the crisis.


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## TheEndIsNigh (Aug 1, 2020)

Dave said:


> I understand the sentiment @Foxbat but I expect that among that 4.2 million people over 65 there will be a large proportion that cannot read



Dave, because of the screen width/formatting this is how your post appeared to me.

Wow!!! I thought, that Dave doesn't hang back. He's not scared of who he upsets.

Then I moved to the next line. Oh well...


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## Dave (Aug 1, 2020)

@Foxbat I think that it might have actually been genuine. I heard they were still door knocking. How they could defend doing that during lockdown I have no idea. One of my own current jobs, as a recycling adviser on doorsteps, is not possible for the foreseeable future. I can't see how these energy providers can do it. This changing of energy providers seems like a scam anyway.

As for elderly being vulnerable online then I've already said in the _Pet Hates thread_ how despicable I think the scammers are. They deliberately target the most vulnerable and if they are successful then they share lists of the people who fell for the scam. Even some "reputable" charities are no better. When my father-in-law died we found *multiple* direct debits from his bank account to the same dogs charity. Chuggers should be banned too!

I think that as far as banks are concerned, they have the best anti-spam defences there are. They just stopped a Premiership Football club from giving away £1 million to scammers. However, these scammers will always find a way and pension funds are like a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow to them.


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## mosaix (Aug 1, 2020)

Talking about changing energy suppliers, I’ve been a member of the Consumers Association (they publish Which?) for years. They offer a switching advice service on their website. You give them details of your gas and electricity usage and they give you the details of the best provider for you. Except they don’t.

It has come to light that the list of providers that they give are biased towards the providers that offer the best commission to CA for the referral. The best provider (cheapest) for an individual might even be on the second page of the list!

As an additional but related rant a representative of CA was interviewed about this on the Today program on BBC Radio 4 and was allowed to waffle on about it by the interviewer without actually saying why the best deal wasn’t top of the list.


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## Phyrebrat (Aug 2, 2020)

I work with people who have no access to cards (plastic debits cards) due to poor income/credit checks or immigration status. There are more and more places where these people cannot use cash (such as on a London bus) and struggled even getting into the career ladder legally.

Argos’s decision is just a manifestation of what we’re going through now in a larger sense. Moving to an e or online-only market oppresses the poor and leads to the vulnerable and needy being sidelined.


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## Danny McG (Aug 2, 2020)




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## AlexH (Aug 2, 2020)

I hate that everything is moving online and to apps. I've been unable to complete transactions at times because I've been unable to receive a text or e-mail to authorise it. HSBC tells me it's Verified by VISA's fault, and Verified by VISA tells me it's HSBC I should complain to. The funniest of these occasions was when I was actually in an HSBC bank, on the phone to HSBC employees somewhere else in the world.

There have been two occasions where I needed an app (which I couldn't install on my mobile phone) to buy a ticket for gigs I wanted to attend. I had difficulty finding someone to contact to make sure I got into these gigs, but someone did eventually sort it out for me (once the band's record label, and another time someone at the venue). On another two occasions, I was able to buy tickets via an app for gigs, but the tickets didn't become available on the app until an hour before the gig (to beat touts, apparently). Yet I had no Internet access to get the tickets, as I had to leave home/accommodation over an hour before the gigs started. 

I appreciate how much more difficult it must be for people who don't use the Internet and never want to. Relying on technology is a bad idea. I've said for years that technology will be the death of a big chunk of human civilisation (perhaps not in my lifetime), as it has been when technology has become 'too advanced' for various civilisations of the past.


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## Dave (Aug 2, 2020)

I'm not sure it I've told this story but I came across someone crying because she couldn't get into her house. However, she hadn't lost her key. Her door didn't have a mechanical lock and key, but an electronic lock opened by a phone App instead. Her phone battery was dead and she couldn't find anywhere to charge it. Without her phone she couldn't open her front door!

I also tried to order a repeat prescription today. I rang the chemist as always but was told that I had to order it online now via something called Patient Assist. This is because of Covid-19, and it ought to be easier for me to do, had it actually worked. I signed up, then I had to link it to my doctor's practise surgery. When I then tried to order it said that the surgery did not currently subscribe to this service. I think that it's because I need a letter that is being sent out from the surgery that I haven't received yet, but there was no explanation. I rang the chemist back. They said I had to email the surgery instead, which I did, but it's Sunday and no one is there. I will sort this out tomorrow, but as with the previous examples already given, what if I didn't have access to a computer? What if I didn't have email? What if I was confused about this change that I haven't been informed was happening? What if I really needed my medicine right now? It is assumed that everyone is able, has full mental capacity and is totally computer literate, when the reality is quite different.


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## AlexH (Aug 2, 2020)

Dave said:


> I'm not sure it I've told this story but I came across someone crying because she couldn't get into her house. However, she hadn't lost her key. Her door didn't have a mechanical lock and key, but an electronic lock opened by a phone App instead. Her phone battery was dead and she couldn't find anywhere to charge it. Without her phone she couldn't open her front door!


This kind of thing is one reason I refuse to rely on a phone for anything. If I need a map, I still take paper maps. My mobile phone is also faulty and John Lewis wouldn't do anything about it because of COVID. Eventually, it looks like I'll have to return it for repair. So if I used a mobile phone for banking, key locks etc. - I wouldn't be able to access any of that.


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## Danny McG (Aug 3, 2020)




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## .matthew. (Aug 3, 2020)

@dannymcg So, Teletext then 

Press yellow, press blue, green, green, red, NEWS ALERTS


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## JohnM (Aug 3, 2020)

Soon... you will be forced to use the internet only for everything....

Secret Global Internet Control Group


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## Phyrebrat (Aug 3, 2020)

Well you may joke but with the IOT in its infancy I’m not so sure it ain’t round the corner


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## Robert Zwilling (Aug 4, 2020)

There are enough new young people coming on line every day who can replace any sales lost by those not using it. 

In the 90's you could use it to look up information and search engine results showed you the best, the most looked at, the most amount of information, without any payola. When they started giving you offers to buy (buy a Shakespeare, best prices!) instead of web sites to learn about something, I didn't like it. I like it even less today. Having to use the App on the phone instead of being able to see it on a website format is an easy choice. I wait until I get home where the desktop, so far, doesn't subscribe to the you only see what someone has paid for you to see philosophy.
I use it as a tool, to find the best price but only from a very limited set of websites. Anything I can get locally at a good price I drive to get. The drive to make internet browsing an exciting experience has created a product I have little interest in using. For me, the appalling lack of security makes it a pathetic piece of junk. But I use it. It is like everything else, if it was properly made, the nameless they wouldn't be able to get rich off of it. Since it is a pathetic piece of junk, the losses are incurred by the users and not by the owners or sellers. Any programs needed to make it safe to use should automatically be provided and be free to use.


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## Stephen Palmer (Aug 5, 2020)

It's the same with cars. I drive a 2012 car, when the level of absurd technology was lower. These days, as observed above, technology overwhelms mechanics every time. We heading into a homogenous society.


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## Dave (Aug 5, 2020)

Stephen Palmer said:


> It's the same with cars. I drive a 2012 car, when the level of absurd technology was lower. These days, as observed above, technology overwhelms mechanics every time. We heading into a homogenous society.


Totally agree about cars (and other pieces of domestic equipment). When they were mechanical, most things could be repaired with a little knowledge and the right tools, and maybe a replacement part; maybe even a bang with a hammer! Now they are electronic they become obsolete when they break. Often that obsolesce is deliberately built-in to make you buy new, and the sheer waste of resources of that is eye-watering. On my car, the "fault" is quite often a faulty 'fault sensor' rather than any actual real fault. You cannot even detect the "fault" without expensive electronic kit, and you simply cannot repair it; it must be replaced. Sometimes that means replacing additional parts that were working perfectly well.

To return to the OT, the generation above mine was used to "do it yourself" fixing and car mechanics. I used to regularly see men tinkering with their cars at the weekends, but today you rarely see a car bonnet up or a car on a jack. I have to admit that I don't even know what some of the dashboard switches like "traction control on/off" actually do!


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## Stephen Palmer (Aug 5, 2020)

This planet is doomed. :/


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## AlexH (Aug 12, 2020)

AlexH said:


> This kind of thing is one reason I refuse to rely on a phone for anything. If I need a map, I still take paper maps. My mobile phone is also faulty and John Lewis wouldn't do anything about it because of COVID. Eventually, it looks like I'll have to return it for repair. So if I used a mobile phone for banking, key locks etc. - I wouldn't be able to access any of that.


Yesterday, I was supposed to have an important doctor's appointment by phone. Yet my phone decided to lose all signal. So followed a stressful morning where I had to get the phone number on my doctor account changed, which technology doesn't allow to do temporarily. Then the mobile phone I loaned to take the calls didn't work, and I missed 3 calls from the doctor (they're only supposed to make 2 if you miss them, but I phoned reception who said under the circumstances they'd request another call). This was a couple of days after it took over an hour to book a blood test because the broadband went down, then the NHS booking website didn't seem to work...

When it comes to technology, we are indeed doomed.


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## .matthew. (Aug 12, 2020)

AlexH said:


> When it comes to technology, we are indeed doomed.



On the plus side... next day delivery of stuff we probably wouldn't buy if we had to _walk _somewhere to buy it


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## HareBrain (Aug 12, 2020)

Dave said:


> I have to admit that I don't even know what some of the dashboard switches like "traction control on/off" actually do!



Turn the traction control on and off?


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## .matthew. (Aug 12, 2020)

HareBrain said:


> Turn the traction control on and off?



Who needs traction control when the onboard computer won't let you start the engine either way?


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## Dave (Aug 12, 2020)

HareBrain said:


> Turn the traction control on and off?


If I had no control over traction then I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be going very far!

(My educated guess is that it is something to do with ABS breaks and stopping wheelspin).


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## Pyan (Aug 12, 2020)

Sounds to me as if it's to do with spinning huge brass wheels and opening and closing valves...


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## tinkerdan (Aug 12, 2020)

We had this happen last week:


Foxbat said:


> During lockdown, my mum was visited by two people in face visors telling her they could get her a cheaper energy deal. She had the good sense not to let them in. My thoughts when I found out were _why the hell were they doing this in the middle of lockdown_? I


I was napping(been doing that a lot as of late)someone came to the door knocking and the wife answered it and as soon as my slumbering mind caught hold of the words 'we're making sure that you are paying the correct price for gas' I came awake and muttered rather loud "nope, nope, nope, nope"
My wife said,'sorry we are not interested," and she closed the door and then said.
"Sure am glad we installed that outernet security system." with an added bit of chuckling.

Now to get back:
I'm almost 70 now and I'm pretty versed in computer; however I've always been slow to adopt things and usually have computers at home that are a bit behind the times and the same goes for my phone--which gets us to the most important part.

I was watching the news, they were showing people checking in somewhere--using smartphones, held against a screen, while they waved their arm or wrist past a sensor that registered the temp and somehow synched that to the phone and id of the individual and I thought about my non-smart flip phone and how much fun it would be for me to have to do that.  However this takes us to the fact that my service At&T has already informed me that when they dump 3G my phone will become a small bit of brick--so, I'm thinking with both those, I will have to join the rest of everyone who has a bit of the internet in their pocket all the time with multiple incentives around to cause everyone to use the internet in someway on their phone.

Perhaps we should worry about that ole number of the beast thing. SmartPhone app 6.6.6--making life easier.


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## Parson (Aug 12, 2020)

Dave said:


> (My educated guess is that it is something to do with ABS breaks and stopping wheelspin).



Bingo! I'd assumed that everyone knew what it was and it was a kind'a joke. Out here where some roads are gravel, some are dirt, and all can be piled deep in snow, traction control is a very important feature.


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## Dave (Aug 12, 2020)

I meant ABS Brakes - I can't even blame an auto-correct either.


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## Robert Zwilling (Aug 13, 2020)

5G is the killer of old phones. The old phone was great. Flip out physical keyboard, only got text and phone. It took 30 minutes to load any internet page so it never got any data. %G comes along and had to upgrade to a smart phone. If I look at the search results on a laptop and look at the results on the smart phone, I see a lot less on the smart phone. Turn everything off and it still is forever trying to turn stuff on and hey did you know you can do this? The worst bug is the one that randomly turns on Do Not Disturb. I thought I had it beat by making a time rule that says turn on do not disturb only from 6 am to 6:05 am. It didn't pay attention. I would drive stake through the phone's heart but the battery would probably explode.


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## MikeAnderson (Aug 13, 2020)

I wonder how many vacuum tubes it takes to run the 5G network.


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## BAYLOR (Aug 13, 2020)

MikeAnderson said:


> I wonder how many vacuum tubes it takes to run the 5G network.



The world may never know.


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## -K2- (Aug 13, 2020)

MikeAnderson said:


> I wonder how many vacuum tubes it takes to run the 5G network.



One...really-really big one.

K2


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## Alex The G and T (Aug 13, 2020)

I hate traction control.  As a skilled driver; when traction breaks one feathers the throttle until one regains traction.

This is something I've been doing automatically, for half a century; driving through mud, snow, steep loose gravel, hill and dale, bogs, swamps and black ice.  I trained myself by practicing driving slideways on any available mud pit or snowy expanses.  (Kids-these-days call it "drifting.")

Knowing, reflexively, how to handle a skid has saved my life on numerous occasions.

Traction control starts counteracting my instinctual throttle adjustments, kills the power and starts random, counterproductive braking activities.

It's an idiot's response to something I know how to do better.


----------



## -K2- (Aug 13, 2020)

Alex The G and T said:


> I hate traction control.  As a skilled driver; when traction breaks one feathers the throttle until one regains traction.
> 
> This is something I've been doing automatically, for half a century; driving through mud, snow, steep loose gravel, hill and dale, bogs, swamps and black ice.  I trained myself by practicing driving slideways on any available mud pit or snowy expanses.  (Kids-these-days call it "drifting.")
> 
> ...



I agree 100%. Though it likely doesn't work the same now with all of the electronics, all it took before was a brush of the brakes to get torque to both tires, a little gas here, a little brake there. Meaning, not gunning it or stomping on the brakes...little adjustments. Past that, 99.9% of my crashes avoided--be it in a car or on a motorcycle--came from 'driving' out of and around the situation. NOT screeching to a halt or jamming on the gas to beat the train 

K2


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## Parson (Aug 13, 2020)

Alex The G and T said:


> Traction control starts counteracting my instinctual throttle adjustments, kills the power and starts random, counterproductive braking activities.



This would be true for me as well. But would it be true for a 16 year old? or an 87 year old? A driver from Miami? --- I had a buddy from northern Florida tell me that the people to look out for when the rare ice hit that area were the people who had moved from New York 10 years ago and thought that they knew how to drive on slippery roads.


----------



## Alex The G and T (Aug 13, 2020)

I started "drifting" when I was 16 years old.      I always thought that it should be a mandatory part of driver training and licensure.  (Though, I gather that in some snowy areas, it is.)  At 87, I'll still have the instincts; or shouldn't be driving.   My Dad's 88, always a more passive driver than I.  He's terrified by the way other people drive. He's still driving the windy mountain roads where I learned to drive.  I always thought they were fun.  Like, a lot of fun.  A really, really lot of fun.   Dad should have spent more time learning to drive slideways.

****
It's traditional to state that people from other states don't know how to drive.  Reminds me of a time, driving into Oregon, being nearly killed by random idiocies perpetrated by Oregon drivers.  "They don't know How to Drive," I shouted.
We stopped for a meal, and overheard folks at a neighboring table complain, "California drivers, They don't know how to drive!"

****

Ah, well @-K2-  hints at the point that the electronics and algorithms might improve with time.   I was grousing about the traction control in an '02 Mercury, that used to drive me nuts.  My 2010 Tacoma has traction control that has never manifested itself.  It's too smart to mess with the likes of me.


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## -K2- (Aug 13, 2020)

Alex The G and T said:


> Ah, well @-K2-  hints at the point that the electronics and algorithms might improve with time.   I was grousing about the traction control in an '02 Mercury, that used to drive me nuts.  My 2010 Tacoma has traction control that has never manifested itself.  It's too smart to mess with the likes of me.



Though they may, that wasn't what I was suggesting... I was stating how a little bit of skill, experience, knowing the vehicle, and most of all, knowing how to drive out of a situation instead of just rely on some automated safety stop is what I believe in. I loathe ABS and feel I can stop better. ABS is for people who panic and jam on the brakes. Traction control? I want control...if I'm gunning the gas when it's slippery, I'm doing it WRONG. What I hate most on the newest of vehicles is automatic braking. You're backing up, you can see everything, but the sensors note some little bump and jam on the brakes, kill the throttle, and sounds a warning tone...I need frigging depends undergarments to drive with that dang thing on.

Anywho...I'll stop there, I could rant all night on this subject and i haven't even gotten around to drivers who have no idea how to check their oil or change a tire...

K2


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## Alex The G and T (Aug 13, 2020)

So, the electronics and algorithms have worsened over time....
Sounds likely.  Those things do have an off button, don't they.

I'm with you, -k2-  many people shouldn't be allowed to drive at all.

And here's what else I hate: uppity cars that beep at you when you don't have your seat belt on.  I spend a lot of time working around the homestead, in and out, and driving slow, off-road.  "Shut the... up.  I' know when to put the seat belt on.  And I effing know when I want to leave the key in the ignition.  Shut the eff up!  And... and... I learned to put the gear shift in neutral, before I start the engine, a hundred years ago. I don't need to be baby-sat by a clutch-pedal  starter-kill switch.  And cars that talk?!?  Grrrrrrrr.


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## Parson (Aug 13, 2020)

@Alex The G and T   "Your door is ajar."


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## Danny McG (Aug 13, 2020)

Alex The G and T said:


> And cars that talk?!? Grrrrrrrr


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## Dave (Aug 13, 2020)

"At the next roundabout take the second turning."

Do you mean drive straight on ahead? Why don't you speak English?


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## tinkerdan (Aug 14, 2020)

"At the next roundabout take the second turning." 

The roundabouts we have here-called traffic circles...when entering them you have to take a right turn and when exiting you have to take a right turn.
They are pretty big and anyone going straight ahead would severely damage their car.
Generally, though, the second turn would keep you going in the direction you came into the circle--however I'm certain I'd instruct someone to take the second turning.


----------



## Danny McG (Aug 14, 2020)

Dave said:


> "At the next roundabout take the second turning."
> 
> Do you mean drive straight on ahead? Why don't you speak English?


They never speak normal anyways, you'll get a "take a  left turn at junction 82"
As opposed to "swing left at this big white pub"


----------



## -K2- (Aug 14, 2020)

They've been adding for a few years here, roundabouts where there were perfectly good and safe intersections. Frankly, knowing our area, it's because some pretentious...twit, probably came back from a European city where they HAD to have them in plazas and other such areas, and decided they were great, simply to do something different.

No offense to other nations since they struggled to work within the constraints of existing cities, but the U.S. was noted for decades as having one of the finest road 'systems' (road quality another thing), in the world, emulated by those who were building new. So now, we have the massive confusion of needing to avoid either stupid or uncaring drivers as they whip around some pointless circle to drive straight ahead.

Next week, some other bright boy will decide we could avoid the whole intersection thing by catapulting cars over them...Sadly, there seems to be an abundance of stupid still in this world.

K2


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## Foxbat (Aug 14, 2020)

Alex The G and T said:


> And cars that talk?!? Grrrrrrrr.


It could be worse.....cars that talk back...


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## Matteo (Aug 14, 2020)

tinkerdan said:


> "At the next roundabout take the second turning."
> 
> The roundabouts we have here-called traffic circles...when entering them you have to take a right turn and when exiting you have to take a right turn.
> They are pretty big and anyone going straight ahead would severely damage their car.
> Generally, though, the second turn would keep you going in the direction you came into the circle--however I'm certain I'd instruct someone to take the second turning.


Round - *about*? 




and also:


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## MikeAnderson (Aug 14, 2020)

Parson said:


> This would be true for me as well. But would it be true for a 16 year old? or an 87 year old? A driver from Miami? --- I had a buddy from northern Florida tell me that the people to look out for when the rare ice hit that area were the people who had moved from New York 10 years ago and thought that they knew how to drive on slippery roads.


I live in South Dakota, and my favorite winter activity is watching idiots from the Sunshine State try to drive in our weather. They can't even drive in sunny conditions; put a half inch of ice on the road, it's like watching somebody trying to teach a dog calculus.

Pure, absurd fun.


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## AlexH (Aug 15, 2020)

As well as missing the doctor's appointment, other things I couldn't do while my mobile phone wasn't working (a replacement SIM has fixed it):
buy some running shoes online because I couldn't complete the transaction without a texted code
sign up for an Apple ID


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## mosaix (Aug 15, 2020)

AlexH said:


> As well as missing the doctor's appointment, other things I couldn't do while my mobile phone wasn't working (a replacement SIM has fixed it):
> buy some running shoes online because I couldn't complete the transaction without a texted code
> sign up for an Apple ID



It’s strange how embedded these things have become in our daily lives. 

I was having a conversation with a ‘friend’ who thinks people on benefits are paid to much: “They can always afford a smart phone, can’t they?” etc. 

Apparently, if you’re not contactable 24 hrs a day it’s possible to lose your benefit.


----------



## AlexH (Aug 15, 2020)

mosaix said:


> It’s strange how embedded these things have become in our daily lives.
> 
> I was having a conversation with a ‘friend’ who thinks people on benefits are paid to much: “They can always afford a smart phone, can’t they?” etc.
> 
> Apparently, if you’re not contactable 24 hrs a day it’s possible to lose your benefit.


I find the reliance on a device sad and constant notifications are one reason society is becoming more stressed. It stressed me out switching all the notifications off when I first got a smartphone, and some apps still re-enable them with 'updates.' I didn't miss my mobile phone while it wasn't working, as I often leave it switched off anyway. I use GPS on my phone sometimes but always take paper maps too if it's important. In fact, when I go hiking, my mobile is rarely switched on.


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## Dave (Aug 15, 2020)

AlexH said:


> I didn't miss my mobile phone while it wasn't working, as I often leave it switched off anyway. I use GPS on my phone sometimes but always take paper maps too if it's important. In fact, when I go hiking, my mobile is rarely switched on.


When I'm away on holiday, I _usually_ don't look at the Internet at all. Unfortunately, weather forecasts, maps, etc. are all moving online, You also have to book places to visit and events online (often you can't phone) and get digital tickets. I agree with you about the intrusiveness. Once you are online, you see the emails, the replies from Chrons... then it's a slippery slope!

Paper maps are essential. if you can still get reception on your phone then you aren't hiking in the right places!


----------



## Parson (Aug 15, 2020)

Dave said:


> Once you are online, you see the emails, the replies from Chrons... then it's a slippery slope!



Let's see I'm now on my fourth perusal of chrons today. No, I'm not addicted. I could stop anytime I wanted.


----------



## JimC (Aug 15, 2020)

I spent last week on Hilton Head Island in South Carolina dealing with continual traffic circles.
They are essential in Europe - not here.


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## JimC (Aug 15, 2020)

I turn my phone off when in my plane.  I do carry a map, but generally leave it in the baggage compartment.


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## Vladd67 (Aug 15, 2020)

JimC said:


> I spent last week on Hilton Head Island in South Carolina dealing with continual traffic circles.
> They are essential in Europe - not here.


You would love Milton Keynes, 130 roundabouts and growing.


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## Parson (Aug 16, 2020)

JimC said:


> I turn my phone off when in my plane.



Okay, now I'm jealous!


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## Astro Pen (Aug 16, 2020)

Danny McG said:


> They never speak normal anyways, you'll get a "take a  left turn at junction 82"
> As opposed to "swing left at this big white pub"


I hate the bit where you are nearly at your destination and it says_ " Take the second right - Oh and you forgot to turn the oven off." _


----------



## JimC (Aug 16, 2020)

I'm prone to turn it off in my car too.


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## TheEndIsNigh (Aug 16, 2020)

Well I'm sadly disappointed with you all.

All these grumbling and moaning about "modern" technology and longing for the good old days when men were men and beating wives was not only normal but expected. In those days there was none of this mass communication. A trip to the doctor by pony and trap was plenty fast enough. After all your wife had only just started her contractions and the "ride" would help the baby get into posistion.

Nevermind, there was no need for on line prescription services because what would you need? Leeches were plentiful in the local pond and your servants could collect them simply by wading in.

@Dave I fail to see the difference between your phone being without charge and just losing your key. At least with the phone, she could just recharge it. With the lost key, the solution is a brick. Having said that, I fail to see why you would rely on an electronic lock (I know cars do it all the time but..) as your only means of access. Especially because by it's nature a phone app that gives acces to your house has to be "clonable" in case there are two people living there, or you change your phone. Such problems leave your house at risk IMO. I accept it on a car because a car is just a piece of metal on wheels. Whereas your home contains all your trinkets.  Having said that how many of us have a spare coin battery in their wallet for when their fob dies.

Sat navs in cars. I trust no one has actually put their actual "home" address in them. I always put the number and street address for a house half a mile away. If I can't get home from that location, then I'm too drunk to drive. Else if you lose your keys, they press the button, your car says "here I am" and your sat nav says this is where you can use that key to open the door.

As for transport nostalgia. Well that's just a load of horse sh*t.

Who would think this is a site for "futuristic imaginations"?


----------



## Dave (Aug 16, 2020)

@TheEndIsNigh No one has ever called me a Luddite before and I don't think I could ever be called a Luddite, but the number of occasions when I have lost my physical keys or accidentally locked myself out of the house, can be counted on one single hand, while the number of times that my phone battery has died, (or I've had no reception, or can't connect to WiFi) are too numerous to count. In my anecdote, the problem was that the person couldn't actually find anywhere to charge her phone. In addition, this thread is (was) about the difficulties faced in an increasingly changing technological world, by a generation who may or may not have less capacity to keep up (or maybe just don't wish to) and how there are no alternatives. There ought to always be alternatives. (Maybe the alternative in the anecdotal case is instead of keeping a key under the flower pot, you keep a charged phone charger there.)



JimC said:


> I turn my phone off when in my plane.





Parson said:


> Okay, now I'm jealous!





JimC said:


> I'm prone to turn it off in my car too.


I'm guessing it's a Bugatti La Voiture Noire?


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## TheEndIsNigh (Aug 16, 2020)

Dave said:


> @TheEndIsNigh No one has ever called me a Luddite before and I don't think I could ever be called a Luddite, but the number of occasions when I have lost my physical keys or accidentally locked myself out of the house, can be counted on one single hand, while the number of times that my phone battery has died, (or I've had no reception, or can't connect to WiFi) are too numerous to count. In my anecdote, the problem was that the person couldn't actually find anywhere to charge her phone. In addition, this thread is (was) about the difficulties faced in an increasingly changing technological world, by a generation who may or may not have less capacity to keep up (or maybe just don't wish to) and how there are no alternatives. There ought to always be alternatives. (Maybe the alternative in the anecdotal case is instead of keeping a key under the flower pot, you keep a charged phone charger there.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You've given me an idea for a "Product". 

If it works, I'll share the profits.


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## Dave (Aug 16, 2020)

TheEndIsNigh said:


> You've given me an idea for a "Product".


Is it a phone charger disguised as a flower pot?


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## JimC (Aug 16, 2020)

"I'm guessing it's a Bugatti La Voiture Noire?"

Naw, a 65 year old T-Bird that I've owned for 55 years.


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## Dave (Aug 16, 2020)

@TheEndIsNigh has a point though. There are some great advantages to having the Internet which might be forgotten in this thread that is mainly a big moan about technology. I feel another of my anecdotes coming, but I once remember having an argument with someone about the song _The Theme from Peter Gunn _which lasted for months. He maintained that it wasn't a cover and that it had been written especially for the film, _The Blues Brothers, _and was completely adamant that I was wrong. It got to the point where he got upset and could hardly speak to me. I wasn't really bothered, except that I knew I was right. One day, he came and apologised and said I was correct. The point is that this could never happen today, you just Google on your smartphone and it tells you that it was written by Henry Mancini for the _Peter Gunn_ TV show. The downside of that is that it is the death of Pub quizzes!


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## JimC (Aug 16, 2020)

I take it he was too young to remember it playing during the TV series?
And that the series came twenty years before the Blues Brothers?


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## Dave (Aug 16, 2020)

I'm too young to have watched the TV series myself, but yes he was quite young. And I can't even remember the last time I looked up the answer to something in a book. My parents used to have several encyclopedias at home. I don't think I have a single one. I mean, selling encyclopedias door to door used to be a big business. Now we have all the knowledge of the world at my fingertips, and we still have no sense about how to use it.


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## Montero (Aug 16, 2020)

Two mobile phone related things.

1. My bank account is now insisting on me having their app for security. (Grump.)

2. Went on a train journey last year for the first time in years and there were sockets in the carriage for charging mobile phones. Whoa. And on every station platform posters reminding you to take the phone with you that you'd plugged in to charge on the train and giving stats on how many finish up in lost property each year. Ah, the world is advancing.


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## -K2- (Aug 17, 2020)

Dave said:


> I'm too young to have watched the TV series myself, but yes he was quite young. And I can't even remember the last time I looked up the answer to something in a book. My parents used to have several encyclopedias at home. I don't think I have a single one. I mean, selling encyclopedias door to door used to be a big business. Now we have all the knowledge of the world at my fingertips, and we still have no sense about how to use it.



We tried contacting libraries when we decided to give away a second identical set of Britannicas. These were the finest they offered. Leather bound, gold leaf and so on, brand new, never opened. Since they were a '80s set, besides all the in brief editions, and the detailed editions, specialized index books and so on, that also meant they came with the annual news and science update editions...So it was a lot of books and a lot of financial investment.

Most libraries complained because there were so many volumes being older...We argued that since current editions are smaller, that meant they had to 'cut' information each year. So in a sense, they were more complete and in depth. No individuals we knew had room, and only three libraries had an interest. Each of them offered to take the books whereupon the general contractor they used for all books, would take them and grind them up for insulation pulp.

Our first thought was, we'd *build a tower to the ignorance of man* in the front yard with them before we'd allow that. Ultimately, they went to either the Salvation Army or Purple Heart (can't recall which). I'm still not sure what level of Hell burners and shredders of hardcover books go to. I just know, I'm not going there. 

Yeah-yeah...my sins are much worse, but almost worth it.   

K2


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## AlexH (Aug 17, 2020)

Dave said:


> @TheEndIsNigh has a point though. There are some great advantages to having the Internet which might be forgotten in this thread that is mainly a big moan about technology. I feel another of my anecdotes coming, but I once remember having an argument with someone about the song _The Theme from Peter Gunn _which lasted for months. He maintained that it wasn't a cover and that it had been written especially for the film, _The Blues Brothers, _and was completely adamant that I was wrong. It got to the point where he got upset and could hardly speak to me. I wasn't really bothered, except that I knew I was right. One day, he came and apologised and said I was correct. The point is that this could never happen today, you just Google on your smartphone and it tells you that it was written by Henry Mancini for the _Peter Gunn_ TV show. The downside of that is that it is the death of Pub quizzes!


There is no doubting there are great advantages to the Internet, it's the _reliance_ on the Internet and technology that I see as the problem.


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## Foxbat (Aug 17, 2020)

AlexH said:


> There is no doubting there are great advantages to the Internet, it's the _reliance_ on the Internet and technology that I see as the problem.


This is my biggest concern too. All eggs in one basket is just asking for trouble. If somebody loses a key, it’s a key to one specific place. If  somebody loses a phone, it could be a key to almost every aspect of a person’s life.


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## Montero (Aug 17, 2020)

The ever expanding use of Smart phones may come to a juddering halt.





						The Metals Used To Make Smartphones Could Run Out Soon
					

Experts at Yale University recently warned that many of the metals critical in the manufacture of electronics, such as tablets and smartphones, could be in short supply in the near future.




					www.techtimes.com
				




No sooner have banks worked them into their security features they may have to take them back out again.


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## Dave (Aug 17, 2020)

The solutions to that are very simple - to re-use the materials from old phones rather than throw them away in landfill, or better still, manufacture phones that can be upgraded rather than discarded, and to stop the business models that rely upon consumers having to replace phones regularly, instead with a business model in which they keep their phones, repair them and replace individual parts. It might look simple and commonsense but our society isn't geared up to do this. There are no standardised parts in any phone, car, or household appliance. Every manufacturer makes something different, on purpose, so that it cannot be more cheaply copied by a competitor.


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## -K2- (Aug 17, 2020)

Dave said:


> The solutions to that are very simple - to re-use the materials from old phones rather than throw them away in landfill, or better still, manufacture phones that can be upgraded rather than discarded, and to stop the business models that rely upon consumers having to replace phones regularly, instead with a business model in which they keep their phones, repair them and replace individual parts. It might look simple and commonsense but our society isn't geared up to do this. There are no standardised parts in any phone, car, or household appliance. Every manufacturer makes something different, on purpose, so that it cannot be more cheaply copied by a competitor.



That sounds nice, but a phone is the size it is due to not being able to switch out parts. Otherwise, it would be MUCH bigger. They do reuse materials to some degree, but as 'far as I know,' it's mostly reclaiming precious metals. Past that, you could actually upgrade components in it, but the skills and equipment required is beyond a vast majority of the peoples' abilities...and...it likely won't end up as durable as a factory offering.

K2


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## Vladd67 (Aug 17, 2020)

7 modular phones that either succeeded or failed miserably
					

Project Ara? More like Project Sayonara.




					www.cnet.com


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## Dave (Aug 17, 2020)

-K2- said:


> That sounds nice, but a phone is the size it is due to not being able to switch out parts. Otherwise, it would be MUCH bigger. They do reuse materials to some degree, but as 'far as I know,' it's mostly reclaiming precious metals. Past that, you could actually upgrade components in it, but the skills and equipment required is beyond a vast majority of the peoples' abilities...and...it likely won't end up as durable as a factory offering.


I did say it sounded simple but isn't, but surely the problems you have identified are design problems, and it is only because there is no incentive to change that it seems impossible to achieve. When I say incentive, really that is a financial incentive that is missing, because no one does anything out of altruism. They reclaim some precious metals because it is profitable to do so, but recycling is never as efficient as reuse. In the UK the Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Regulations 2013 (WEEE) regulated to reduce the amount of waste electrical and electronic equipment incinerated or sent to landfill sites by encouraging the recovery, reuse and recycling of products and components, but that doesn't go nearly as far as necessary to prevent the warnings like that @Montero posted.

Anyhow, this has little to do with age and the Internet, sorry for the interruption.


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## Danny McG (Aug 23, 2020)




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## AlexH (Sep 2, 2020)

AlexH said:


> As well as missing the doctor's appointment, other things I couldn't do while my mobile phone wasn't working (a replacement SIM has fixed it):
> buy some running shoes online because I couldn't complete the transaction without a texted code
> sign up for an Apple ID


As it turns out, the replacement SIM didn't fix the problem, and I almost missed _another_ doctor's appointment.

I had a very stressful 45 minutes trying to get a working phone to take the call.

I felt paranoid checking my phone all morning, but then noticed the signal had completely gone again (why only when I have a doctor's appointment?). 

I needed a safety pin or something to remove the SIM from the dodgy phone but couldn't find one. I found a couple of contenders, but they were too thin. I eventually found a safety pin, but it was one with a coating, so I had to find some wire strippers to strip the coating.

I wanted to try the SIM in a really old mobile I still use as an alarm, but the SIM I had was a micro SIM, and I needed a bigger SIM to fit the old phone. So I made the micro SIM into a bigger SIM to fit the old phone.

Then it wouldn't work (maybe this old phone is 1G if that was even a thing).

So I found another old but newer phone and that worked.

Then I was on the phone trying to find out from reception if the doctor had already called, but they weren't able to tell me as the doctor was from another practice they'd referred me to. So I got the phone number of that practice and found out they hadn't called me after all.

Phew.

I've been waiting for John Lewis to get back to me for two weeks on this problem (and months for the GPS issue on the phone). Maybe I should just buy a new phone and try to return the dodgy phone for a refund.


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## Foxbat (Sep 2, 2020)

AlexH said:


> As it turns out, the replacement SIM didn't fix the problem, and I almost missed _another_ doctor's appointment.
> 
> I had a very stressful 45 minutes trying to get a working phone to take the call.
> 
> ...


I admire your perseverance. If it had been me, I would have jumped up and down on the phone until it was just a pile of broken plastic long before now. I once got so frustrated with a non-printing printer that I punched it so hard, I split the plastic casing (and gave myself extremely sore knuckles).


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## AlexH (Sep 2, 2020)

Foxbat said:


> I admire your perseverance. If it had been me, I would have jumped up and down on the phone until it was just a pile of broken plastic long before now. I once got so frustrated with a non-printing printer that I punched it so hard, I split the plastic casing (and gave myself extremely sore knuckles).


I won't go into my experiences with printers. 

Technology is giving me a bad name. I was given a lecture from a receptionist this afternoon about making sure I keep my mobile with me and answer calls when I'm expecting a call from the doctor. I'd already been on the phone for 10 minutes by then (trying to find out why the doctor hadn't called me for my planned appointment this morning), so just thought "of course, why wouldn't I?" Only after, I realised something must be flagged on my account about me missing calls from a doctor, despite me telling them the reason why. This morning's call didn't happen because I was booked in for the wrong date! I'm 99.999% sure I'm right, because today is before my birthday, and the date they _actually _booked me is after my birthday - I remember noticing the appointment date I was told was just before my birthday. I doubt someone would've booked me in for the wrong date with good old pen and paper!


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## Pyan (Sep 2, 2020)

Interesting table from Hive security systems:


----------



## Danny McG (Sep 2, 2020)

34,000 years!
I'm happy with that


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## AlexH (Sep 2, 2020)

pyan said:


> Interesting table from Hive security systems:
> 
> View attachment 68885


I looked into something similar recently to reassure my writing group it was unlikely someone would discover our shared Google Drive without having access to the link. The number of years in the bottom right corner of the above graphic are likely the number of years it would take. The URLs include strings like this: 15_Iom36PVUAaB4k0Nfr73ri6C41buvy9sDXes-SVFw - imagine if that string I've made up actually goes to a Google Doc?! Ridiculously unlikely.

The maths from one person to try and guess such links included working out such as "Specifically, the sun's energy is only sufficient to count to 2187 per year, meaning it will take 276 years with our own sun, 275 years if we could harness 2 suns, etc. You might barely have enough power to count to 2256 if you were to power your computer with the supernova destruction of every star in the Milky Way Galaxy. So that's getting somewhere."








						How unlikely is it that a Google Doc link is guessed?
					

Most (if not all) of us know that a Google Doc link looks something like this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13P3p5bA3lslqEJT1BGeTL1L5ZrQq_fSov_56jT9vf0I/edit  There are becoming several tools...




					security.stackexchange.com


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## Parson (Sep 3, 2020)

I would bet that sophisticated hackers use better tools than straight guessing. The length of time that the chart shows certainly makes an important point, but I DOUBT it's accuracy in a real world scenario.


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## Overread (Sep 3, 2020)

Parson said:


> I would bet that sophisticated hackers use better tools than straight guessing. The length of time that the chart shows certainly makes an important point, but I DOUBT it's accuracy in a real world scenario.



I would expect by "guessing" they mean that the hacker is using computer programs to guess the password rather than them doing it manually. These guessing engines do use more than just guesswork. They will run common phrases and terms that often appear in passwords and such. If the hacker is really keen they'll also use data mining methods like those "name your favourite icecream" things on facebook. They'll harvest that data from a whole load of users and a whole rafter of questions knowing that some of those questions often form the foundation of a password (eg pet name). They can then correlate that with a specific account and then the guessing engine can be pre-loaded with those terms and use them in a variety of ways to try and guess faster.

The other impact is changing your password. In theory not only should you be using a long, random secure password, but also changing it. That way any hacking attempt is thwarted by the fact that the password has changed. Of course there are practical limits for most people in what passwords they can remember and change and keep remembering. So often as not very secure online passwords might be written down on paper - a very big weak point in security, but fairly safe from any online-only hacker unless they get a keylogger into your computer (it reads the keys you press when entering the password) or a trojan website (it pretends to be the website and then steals your password when you login*). 

In a practical sense you can often be fairly safe with weaker passwords on things like forums; the critical areas are things like paypal, amazon, stores with auto-buy options that you've enabled, email etc... Ergo places where your personal, financial and other such data is stored and accurate. Often people slip up because they use the same password everywhere. So a website with weaker anti-hacking protection gets breached and then the registered email and discovered password get used on a whole bunch of other websites.

Mining user data and linking up user data is a big part of hacking. Again you can start to protect yourself more if you use different emails to register on different websites. Though, of course, the more layers you introduce the more you have to remember and hold together. 

*This is why you get those fake emails that tell you your paypal/amazon/whatever account is being limited and you must login right now with this link to unlock it .


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## Dave (Sep 3, 2020)

Overread said:


> In a practical sense you can often be fairly safe with weaker passwords on things like forums; the critical areas are things like paypal, amazon, stores with auto-buy options that you've enabled, email etc...


I agree with everything you just said, although, it seems those weaker places are often attacked _just for fun_, and targeted because they are known to be weaker in their security as a whole. 

I would add that since many people are going self-employed, and working in businesses from home, often using social media like Twitter, Instagram and Facebook as a platform to sell goods on eBay, those social media platforms have poor security, and while you may not hold financial information on them, being hacked and without them for any period of time could severely affect your profitability. It probably isn't a great business model to use.


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## Foxbat (Sep 3, 2020)

I think it’s becoming harder and harder for folk to follow the advice. They say it has to be aplhanumeric, upper and lower case and should be different for different sites. That’s all well and good but, following that advice, every password should be a complicated mixture of symbols, letters and numbers and should be different for each site. How many people could remember a wad of passwords (we’re not supposed to write them down).



Another thought: banks have recently been trying to shift more fraud responsibility on to their customers, how long before somebody is refused help because their password was too weak?

In my old workplace, I had to create a new password every three months and my new one could not be the same as my last seven passwords. This was a complete pain at the time but it helped me formulate my own password technique based on information known only to me (and not available on any social media site).


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## .matthew. (Sep 3, 2020)

Foxbat said:


> That’s all well and good but, following that advice, every password should be a complicated mixture of symbols, letters and numbers and should be different for each site. How many people could remember a wad of passwords (we’re not supposed to write them down).



Point the first: The guy who came up with that convention later admitted he had no idea what he was talking about (that's a bad article but a quick read). It's actually very annoying when we're made to use the convention, even on worthless logins that *I don't care about!*

Point the second: We're not supposed to write them down but at the same time, why not? I have some written down in a notebook in a stack of notebooks, and honestly, if someone robbed my house, them knowing some passwords would be nothing compared to the damage they'd already done. Plus the financial ones are just hints (vague hints with specific stuff only known to me). Plus I'd just change them straight away too.

Point the third: The best passwords are not words at all but rather phrases. A passphrase of multiple words is actually way harder for a computer to guess than the uppercase numbers and symbol ones.




Weirdly, PayPal and other financial ones actually have character *limits* stopping you from using really secure passphrases.


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## Parson (Sep 4, 2020)

My personal work around for passwords is a program "Keeper." I can access it through a pretty tough password 10+ random numbers, letters, and symbols which opens the program where I have all the rest of my passwords kept. And most of those are generated randomly so no amount of knowing me well helps to guess the passwords I use on anything important.


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## TheEndIsNigh (Sep 4, 2020)

*On updating obsolete phones.*

To do this you would need the same footprint on the new device as the old on. Nowadays it's virtually impossible to re-solder a component back on to a PCB. Some of these devices have over 400 connections in the form of little dots. In order to check that every dot is connected to its pad on the PCB manufacturers have to x-ray the board. One connection fail is a discarded scrapped PCB because to remove it takes more time and money than chucking it and making a new one. (hey plastic bags is the ultimate example). That's before the issue of the woman hours involved in doing it.

This was all made more difficult by the introduction of lead free solder - but that's another story.

Consider the time to. (these would be manual tasks)
Test the phone is fully working and has no damage.
Take the phone apart.
Remove the PCB
Locate and the old part.
Apply de soldering techniques for that specific part usually a localised heating gun).
Check for missing pads (as a result of wrenching the old chip off)
Clean the connections of old solder.
Manually apply solder to each of those 400 pads.
Place new component on old pads
Heat the new chip locally (so other components don't come loose) with a heat gun.
Allow smoking ruin to cool and hope none of the tracks have been damaged.
X-ray connections to check they are connected.
Test the phone to see its fully working
Package phone in new box.

These are just a few of the steps. all of the above can be automated with a new phone.

For example the soldering for all components is done at once with a temperature controlled system

The components are placed by machine

The X-ray is done via automated visual inspection machines with a pass/fail comparison of the whole PCB.

Assembly of the phone is nowadays done automatically (think car assembly)

In fact most old phones find a home in the third world where 1g is a thing of the future.

*On Passwords.*

Passwords are great, but the problem isn't some hyper computer trying random combinations of letters and symbols its people revealing them to other people while they look over their solder, leaving your phone unlocked (or even worse lending it to random people say when they see a youtube video), people with revengeful partners having affairs, leaving their Bluetooth etc. active, best of all sticking it next to their monitor. But there are countless ways in which people "tell" other people their passwords without the need to resort to messy methods.

Don't get me started on cookies.

Oh and another thing about lending your phone to others.

You may be very charitable, but if you're selective in your donations never allow someone else to possess your phone. A quick "GIVE 10" to 966445 quickly followed by delete message can be expensive.

Unless you have a fondness for alley cats or other people's bank accounts in general.


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## Dave (Sep 4, 2020)

TheEndIsNigh said:


> *On updating obsolete phones. *To do this you would need the same footprint on the new device as the old on. Nowadays it's virtually impossible to......


These are completely matters of design. You only underline my point. Our throwaway society is one which is not built upon reuse, but rather upon making reuse totally impossible, and as someone said earlier, that simply cannot change overnight, but is that an excuse for saying it cannot be changed?


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## Parson (Sep 4, 2020)

Dave said:


> These are completely matters of design. You only underline my point. Our throwaway society is one which is not built upon reuse, but rather upon making reuse totally impossible, and as someone said earlier, that simply cannot change overnight, but is that an excuse for saying it cannot be changed?


Agreed, but making do and repairing something yourself does not create cash for the manufacturer. So they lean into one of the most anger inducing statements: "planned obsolescence."


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## .matthew. (Sep 4, 2020)

Dave said:


> These are completely matters of design. You only underline my point. Our throwaway society is one which is not built upon reuse, but rather upon making reuse totally impossible, and as someone said earlier, that simply cannot change overnight, but is that an excuse for saying it cannot be changed?


I completely agree with the sentiment behind this. But just the sentiment. 

There is a point of technology where you physically can't fix it yourself, but up to there, things should be designed to be repairable.

Take a phone screen, that should absolutely be replaceable, the battery as well, maybe the ability to fix things like damaged ports. Beyond that, it's too complex to be fixed by an end-user.

I find things like computer 'assisted' tractors abhorrent though. A tractor does not need a computer, and our food security shouldn't be tied to corporate goliaths. Same for GMO seeds, I like them, but not how they design them to need replacing each year.

But yea, tangent over, repair and reuse where possible, but for some things, it just isn't.


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## Foxbat (Sep 5, 2020)

I like to repair as much as I can but it’s getting harder to find the parts. I used Maplins a lot in  the years gone by but they are long gone. The last significant repair I made was to my Line 6 PodXT. It’s a digital amp modeller and almost 20 years old. I found only one outlet that sold the branded part in the USA. Then, I discovered they didn’t ship overseas.

It took me ages of searching to locate the part I needed.Then, I discovered that the minimum amount I had to buy was 25. Luckily, the unbranded components were fairly cheap (and a hell of a lot cheaper per unit than the branded parts). I bought the 25, made the repair and still have 24 spares. They don’t make it easy for us make-do-and-menders 

P.S. I’m assuming computer controlled tractors are for ploughing extremely straight furrows. My own scorn goes to internet fridges. I’d love to be a hacker and do a mischievous mass overnight defrost.


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## Dave (Sep 5, 2020)

Foxbat said:


> I’m assuming computer controlled tractors are for ploughing extremely straight furrows.


Alternatively, they could make some very complex Maize Mazes 

Without a human driver, seating, driving controls, glass windows and all the safety features required, there would be a huge weight saving. Less weight would mean considerably less soil compaction. I'm guessing that might be the reason?


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## .matthew. (Sep 5, 2020)

Oh no, they're like computers in cars. They still need drivers, they do the same as any other tractor, but when they break only the manufacturer can change anything because if anyone else tries it just bricks them


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## Dave (Sep 6, 2020)

Well, that does seem pointless. I was thinking they were using GPS tracking.

To return to the OP theme again, the idea of technology making things things more complicated seems wrong to me. If the technology isn't making something easier/ more simple/ less physically or mentally demanding then there is no point to having it at all.


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## Foxbat (Sep 6, 2020)

I think part of the problem is the child in a sweetshop syndrome. People develop technological equivalents to other methods not because they are actually needed but simply because they can.  

I was reading an article recently on a digital pregnancy tester. When dismantled, it was found to contain the same paper test that would be used before the advent of electronics. The digital part simply displayed the information from the test. 

A simple instruction on how to interpret the results from the paper test would suffice and wouldn’t generate the e-waste (it was a one-use test).


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