# What's the real story of Galahad and Lancelot?



## X Q mano (May 27, 2003)

Hi guys...

This'll be my first post here... 

My question is, do somebody know, or could point me to a webpage that will tell me who these guys really were?

I've read a little here and there, but not entirely factual...


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## Brian G Turner (May 27, 2003)

Hi, X Q mano, and welcome to the chronicles-network!

Sorry for the delay in replying  - been busy researching web hosting issues all day.

As for the question - what aer you actually asking? Are you asking as to who potential factual persons may have been reworked as Galahad and Lancelot? Or are you asking about literary origins?

Or both - ie, the reworkings from the Welsh folklore?

Sorry - need to ask because if you narrow the question I'll do some research on the issue for you - very happy to. Whether I find anything useful is another matter, though.


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## X Q mano (May 28, 2003)

Hmmm... Good question... 

I guess it's the first... What is the REAL story behind the names... 

That'll do for now, but later, I may ask the second question as well...


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## Brian G Turner (May 28, 2003)

No problem - I'll try and get some definitive answers for you over the next few days.

By that I mean _possibilities_, not _probabilities_ - I'll leave that to your judgement. The whole issue of Normans writing about Anglo-Saxons means there are two immediate routes to start from...


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## X Q mano (May 29, 2003)

Thanks!  I'll be watching this space then...


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## Brian G Turner (May 31, 2003)

Ok, here's what I got. Do note first of all, that it's all a bit confused. There's some agreement on the literature (often, but not always!) - and that's the only feature we can immediately hope to get any _definite_ information from! Which hardly bodes well for the rest...

But here's what I've collected:

The first real source Arthurian Literature (as we know it) seems to be Geoffrey of Monmouth's _Historia Regnum Brittaniae_, which most likely appeared during the first half of the 12th century AD (Geoffrey died in 1155).

However, Lancelot didn't actually appear until a few years later. It was Chretien de Troyes, who wrote in the second half of the 12th century, who actually introduced a lot of the familiar names - Camelot, Lancelot, and Percival. 

Lancelot was apparently first popularised in the Chretien story "The Knight and the Cart". Chretien also popularised the entire "Grail Quest" in "Cont du Graal", and it's interesting to note that Lancelot's adultery was originally with Mordred. 

Galahad actually appears to be a slightly later addition than most knights (Gawain had his origins at least in Geofrey's, but possibly before) and Galahad was seemingly constructed simply to make a point that the other knights couldn't serve. 

Note also that knights who achieved the Grail in other stories all failed in the "Lancelot Grail". It's the Lancelot Grail cycle that Mallory was using as a basis for much of his Morte D'Arthur, which is of course the most famous version of the story.

There's a lot of debate as to Lancelot's own origins - the whole issue seems very confused. On the one hand, some say that he's a purely Norman invention - but others insist on an Anglo-Saxon origin.

Add to that there are some other interesting theories around - there's especially a good one that the basis for the whole Arthurian legend is actually Sarmatian.

On this latter vein it is claimed that chivalry first appeared in the Caucasus Mountain region among the Alans, who are probably descended from the ancient Sarmatians, a people of the North Caucasus area who speak a language belonging to the Iranian language family.

Still with this theory, it is claimed that the essential outlines of the Arthurian story were known in Alan legend back in Roman times. There was a legion of Sarmatian soldiers, a tribe called Iazyges, from the steppes just north of the Caucasus who served in the Roman army and were transferred to Britain. The modern-day descendants of the Alans are thought to be the Ossetes.

It's also interesting to note that Plutarch apparently refers to a legend among the Britons "that the god Kronos slumbered on an island, guarded by Briareus" and that this has some bearing on the origin and development whole Arthurian legend.



While such ideas as the Sarmatian source are interesting as conjecture, it must be noted that there is no single overall convincing theory. Quite possibly, the early Arthurian writers such as Georfrrey and Chretien, were drawing not on any single legend, but instead wrote a fictional framework filled with details whimsically drawn from a range of _different_ traditions - from local Britain and homeland France (not to mention any other external lores the Norman's picked up elsewhere) - and peppered it all together with a good liberal sprinkling of self-fulfilling propaganda.

So essentially there never has been any single individual who could fulfill the critieria of being a Lancelot or Galahad - or even an Arthur. But there are always figures from history who will fill some archetypical requirements, but never wholly.



Some links (please note that they don't always agree with one another!):

Chretien de Troyes "Knight of the Cart" :
http://camelot.celtic-twilight.com/...en/lancelot.htm

Some history:
http://www.britannia.com/history/timeart2.html

Info about Galahad:
http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/galmenu.htm

A good chronology for "what was published when?" :
http://phoenix.marymount.edu/~csnyder/Chronology.htm

And a generally helpful list of links:
http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/links/arthlink.htm

From Scythia to Camelot - Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0815335660/ref=ase_dragonlordsofdumA/103-4884519-7652609

Essay on the above:

http://www.mun.ca/mst/heroicage/issues/2/ha2tf.htm

ALSO!

Note the following:

General Arthurian links and ersources:

http://people.bu.edu/agrhill/arthur.htm

The Modena Archivolt - an early 12th century engraving, which refers to "Artus de Bretania" (Arthur of Britannia).

http://camelot.celtic-twilight.com/sgmaoa/sculpture1.htm


Hope that helps.


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## X Q mano (May 31, 2003)

Wow! Yeah, thanks, that  helps a lot! 

What did you mean about Lancelot's adultery was originally with Mordred? 

Did he (according to some legend) have an affair with Arthur's queen, or am I mistaken?

Do you recommend any books of Arthurian fantasy over others? I've read the five volume Pendragon cycle, but it doesn't claim to portray a truthful picture of the events. There Lancelot is called Llenlleawg, Galahad is called Gwalchawad and Arthur's queen is called Gwenwhyar or something...


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## Brian G Turner (May 31, 2003)

I've actually read very little on Arthur myself - I find that the whole area to be less one of serious research, as much as personal wish-fulfillment. 

I really ought to know more about the Welsh legends, though - I'll keep an eye out.


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## Enferos (Aug 23, 2003)

lancelot certainly did have an affair with Guinevere
Mordred also tried---unsuccessfully, Guinevere ran away from him (Mordred) and locked herself in the tower of london.. this is while Arthur is off pursuing lancelot in france

although different stories portrays Guinevere differently, i think there is only one story however that lancelot did not like guinevere and she was trying to have an affair him and he refuses etc. generally portraying Guinevere as a malicious, usurping queen

however i tend to go with the story that has Guinevere as a generally graceful queen, though she bears the disgrace of having an affair with lancelot

mordred is also sometimes said to be the son of arthur and morgan le fay (his "half-sister", "cousin", or just "enemy" depend on who wrote  the story)


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## GnomeoftheWest (Aug 23, 2003)

The best book (in my opinion) is "The Once And Future King"  by T. H. White.
Funny, sad, hopeful.

By the way, I really like your Avatar


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## Brian G Turner (Aug 23, 2003)

Twins!

Has anyone read the Stephen Lawhead novels set in Arthurian legend, by the way?


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## GnomeoftheWest (Aug 23, 2003)

I read the first 3 -  they were very well written if somewhat detached.  But I didn't really care for the one book per character approach.


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