# Fringe



## Michael01

I was going to add this in the section for TV shows, but it seems there's no way to start a new thread there (as far as I can tell).  Anyway...

Has anyone else seen this (*Fringe*)?  I just caught it on Hulu and I think it's just incredible - like *X-Files* for the 21st century.  Science on the "fringe" or "pseudo-science" in practice.  It's both crazy and interesting.  I can't get enough of it.


----------



## biodroid

I couldn't agree more. It's a very good show, way better than whats currently on on TV these days. Well acted, excellent story and I was amazed that the SFX is almost cinema quality, nice big budget. I like the X-Files style influence, really getting tired of middle aged women with their problems or stupid girls with braces working for fashion magazines, or guys breaking in and out of prison the whole time, or whats currently on in my country is all 3 CSI show are on during the week. Our network here sux.


----------



## Ghost Of Gernsback

I like what I have seen so far... Though the story arc needs to advance a bit this season. Lots a questions..few answers.... The reason I gave up on Lost, X Files etc


----------



## Michael01

Yes, I'd like to see it advance a bit too, although not too fast.  I wouldn't want it to be another *Star Trek* or *Dark Angel*.  Still, there are a lot of unanswered questions.

I don't know much about what's on TV, though.  Lately I've been getting all my TV shows online.  I always forget, no matter how much I like a show, to "tune in next week" (haha).  I really like *Heroes*,  but I missed everything beyond the 18th episode.  Now if I try to go back to it, I'll be totally lost.

After seeing the first 10 episodes of *Fringe*, though, I will at least try to remember to look for it on TV next week.  I'd like to see it on a bigger screen anyway.  Besides, as they often do in these shows, it ended with a cliffhanger.  Can't let that go.  

Anyone know when episode 11 is scheduled to air?  Or have I already missed it?


----------



## Bikewer

They are trying rather hard to milk the X-files....  Still, it's not bad.  Best is the loony doctor; his seamless switches from profound observations to silliness are worth the price of admission alone.


----------



## Michael01

Well, I missed it.  I even reminded myself an hour before and still forgot!  Here's keeping my fingers crossed that I'll still be able to watch this series online...


----------



## afroelf

I never watch "serials" but I have been catching up with this. SO far ony seen the pilot and the second episode. Absolutely barmy - and I suspect very predictable. However, that said, very compelling and addictive.


----------



## Sadie Sin

I think of it as The X Files with a facelift. I saw it once but haven't caught it since the pilot.


----------



## Tickle

I really like this series. I never saw it when it first came on, then I went online to www.fox.com and you can watch all of the past episodes, so I did. This is my kinda show. I don't think it is predictable. The science is crazy and I love the mad Dr. He is endearing and scary at the same time.

Yes, the most recent episode (11) is on the website already. I just watched it yesterday. Good pick up. I will be watching the rest of the season.


----------



## Michael01

All right!  Thanks, Tickle.  Yeah, I watched the first ten episodes on Hulu.  I haven't checked back yet.  Since it's Fox's show, they'd probably have it first anyway (I assume).  Heading over now.


----------



## Tickle

Michael01 said:


> All right! Thanks, Tickle. Yeah, I watched the first ten episodes on Hulu. I haven't checked back yet. Since it's Fox's show, they'd probably have it first anyway (I assume). Heading over now.


 
Michael01, so how did you like Episode 11? I just watched episode 12 and it was weird. I liked it.


----------



## Michael01

Ooh. Need to see 12...

It was good. I like it, although the thing about [*spoiler*] the slug being a "virus cell" seemed a bit off (since viruses technically aren't "cells"). I ignored that bit and still enjoyed the show very much.


----------



## Dave

biodroid said:


> ...really getting tired of middle aged women with their problems or stupid girls with braces working for fashion magazines, or guys breaking in and out of prison the whole time...


You made me laugh. That's why I watch so little TV. It's either that or reality TV, which is even worse! Z-List celebrities trying desperately to make a comeback, but instead looking more foolish than ever.

Since I stopped getting cable (because it cut the station that showed Lost, Battlestar Galactica and Stargate) I mainly watch DVDs of films, and older TV shows. And I read books and I sit here. I've not yet seen Fringe, but heard good things. Hopefully I will catch up with all these shows again when they eventually get shown on UK terrestrial TV.


----------



## Karn Maeshalanadae

I love the show. Been watching since it started up. I'd have to say that Walter would be my favorite character, followed by Peter. Not really liking Olivia so much, though.....a bit too serious for my tastes. Walter's awesome, though.


----------



## Michael01

Absolutely! Walter is the _coolest_, and Peter really sets him off with comments like [mild spoiler] "So you're saying my father is Doctor Frankenstein?" Good stuff!

And you're right about Olivia being too serious. Mulder was serious in X-Files too, but his character had quirks that came out occassionally so he didn't seem quite so... "unendearing," I guess? I'm not sure if that's the word I'm looking for...


----------



## purple_kathryn

Will there be a series 2?


----------



## Michael01

I hope so!  Knowing Fox, though, it's entirely too possible they'll cancel it.  They do that with all the best shows, unfortunately.  Here's keeping our fingers crossed for season 2!


----------



## steve12553

It's due out in the next month or so. They ended the first season with a cliffhanger with Leonard Nimoy in it in a parallel dimension so we got at least another year.


----------



## Michael01

Leonard Nimoy? That makes me think I've something... I'd better go check it out.  Thanks for heads up, Steve!


----------



## Daisy-Boo

Walter Bishop is my favourite character too. I love the chemistry between him and Peter. It's a treat to watch the growing closeness in their relationship. 

Any thoughts on season 2?


----------



## Niolani

It's already been cancelled in Australia (typical), from memory we only got to see 1/3 of the season. I didn't particularly like it but I feel it might be one of those shows that just needs a bit more time to develop into something really good.


----------



## Michael01

And I think it's doing it, although it has a few episodes here and there that throws things off a little.  They're really getting into the parallel world with shape-shifting agents plot, and the characters just keep getting deeper and more interesting.

Really unfortunate they've canceled it there.  But I don't even watch it on TV because I hate waiting a week (sometimes more when the network has other plans) between episodes.  I watch it on Hulu or the network website.


----------



## sloweye

I've just finished the first series.... AWESOME! 
I found myself wanting to see an X File/Fringe cross over as i was a big fan (up until Mulder left the show)


----------



## Lenny

I warned my friend not to get me into it as I have a habit of marathoning every episode of a series, whether it's a single series of 13 episodes, or a behemoth like House (which I watched six series, and the first half of the seventh, of over a fortnight in January - I'm now reduced to watching the new episodes as they air on a weekly basis), and my exams start on Monday.

Needless to say, I got into it just over a week ago, and I finished Series Three today.

It's become one of my favourite series out there, and by far my favourite SF series.

I thought the first half of Series One was a bit shaky, and risked falling into a formulaic given a case, struggle with the case, go to Massive Dynamic, solve the case routine, but it picked up around episode 10, and I haven't been able to stop myself watching it since (I started Series Three yesterday afternoon).


----------



## Daisy-Boo

I just watched the final three episodes of season 3 and am still gathering my thoughts. So far I can say that I am stunned, delighted and disappointed in more or less equal measures.

****SPOILERS****




What on earth happened with Sam Weiss? What was a mysterious and intriguing character fizzled out as a major disappointment. I hope season 4 will resurrect the character and deliver on his initial promise.

The travelling into the future gambit sits uneasily with me. Time travel raises so many questions and conflicts and this time I find it hard to simply accept (as one often has to do with Fringe) that the events make sense as presented. I had this vaguely discomforting feeling that Peter's little jaunt into the future and his subsequent disappearance, was put in to give season 3 a satisfactory conclusion, in case there was no renewal for season 4. (I think the confirmation for season 4 came when season 3 was well under way.)

Having said that, Peter's disappearance and future-Olivia's death stunned me with their brutality. (And I count that as a positive.) In Olivia's case we knew Walternate was going after her but her actual death was done quickly and cruelly with no preliminaries. And Peter was there one second and gone the next.

The standout scenes (for me) all involved John Noble.
1) Walter's cautiously child-like delight at being able to eat those red sweeties was tempered by (possibly) the fear of this little treat being snatched away from him. He conveyed all this in small, subtle but very powerful ways.
2) Walter and Walternate in the same scene was powerful stuff indeed. Slight physical differences aside, one is left in no doubt as to who is who. 

Noble conveys Walternate's anger, bitterness and arrogance without having to say a word. His expressions and body language says it all. He is, in many ways, a monster of a man. Yet somehow, there is a lingering feeling of pity for him. He bore a heavy burden for many years, taking on the task of performing all kinds of distasteful acts, all in the belief (right or wrong) that his decisions and actions could save his world. Everything he did ended up being in vain because his world was destroyed and he was punished by being alive to remember everything that was lost.

You then switch over to Walter and all you see is a broken scared man, worn down by shame, time and events. You know Walter has led a life of moral ambiguity (think of his experimentation on children, Olivia in particular) yet you can't help but love the man and feel protective of him. He's lived his life as two people - the younger, more ruthless and often amoral Walter, and then the older mentally cracked man who could be extremely kind and cruel all at the same time.

How John Noble has not been showered with Emmys is beyond my understanding. The man is brilliant. Simply brilliant.

Season 4 cannot come too soon. I love not being able to predict what could happen.


----------



## Dr.Jackson

Daisy-Boo said:


> How John Noble has not been showered with Emmys is beyond my understanding. The man is brilliant. Simply brilliant.
> 
> Season 4 cannot come too soon. I love not being able to predict what could happen.



Agreed, on both things there. I've discussed the wonderful nuances that John Noble managed to bring to the character in the last episode. Very subtle things with both Walter and Walternate that intensified responses to them.
I don't want to give anything away by posting details here, but it was one heck of an ending, most unexpected and a little confusing.

There's been a lot of speculation about how things are going to work out given the change in circumstances at the end of this past season.
Looking forward to seeing how they deal with everything in season 4.


----------



## Lucky_Lola

Daisy-Boo said:


> How John Noble has not been showered with Emmys is beyond my understanding. The man is brilliant. Simply brilliant.
> 
> Season 4 cannot come too soon. I love not being able to predict what could happen.



Had to requote this... putting my hand up for both points as well. I only got into watching Fringe part-way through the second season and have spent the past two weeks watching all three over again. The whole Peter/First People/Machine paradox and/or time loop is doing my head in! Absolutely cannot wait for the 4th season - the first ep is scheduled to air in the US the day before my birthday (23 Sep) which is FAR too long IMO!

Dead on, Daisy-Boo - the best part (aside from the wonderfully written and acted characters) is not being able to predict every little plot twist. When you-know-who vanished into thin air I literally jumped off the couch!


----------



## caffran

Totally agree. best show on TV at the moment.

Must admit i was a little dubious when they brought in the whole 'first people' storyline. i thought to myself, oh no, they've gone the same way as Lost -they're making stuff up just to be weird without having a clue how to resolve it- but no, it all falls together by season end.

Of course, answering one batch of questions simply throws up a raft of new one's.

Bring on season four


----------



## Bugg

I really enjoyed the end of season 3. It's left me a bit bewildered, in a good way. I didn't think it was quite as good as the end of season 2, but it was still very watchable. I like not knowing where they're going with this next - so long as the writers know, that's fine by me.  They _do_ know ... don't they?


----------



## Bel_Azad

I am giving Fringe the 8/10 mark - and even better - it is the only piece of Sci Fi my wife watches after 15 years of marriage and trying (and giving up) to get her to watch lots of stuff.    

I quite liked the X-files ike stuff it had early on and was a bit dubious about the oter events that happened - last season (three) ended at a great point - but I don't like the current season so far in that it has been like undoing what they did last time around 

-  But I have high hopes for this series - one of my favs    Also like Walter and his attempts to call Astrid by her real name -   

Last night I was guffawing around when he called her "Asperin"    

Other highlights are "Asterix" and "Astro"  

Quite like the father/son link they have going through the episodes - seems to work better in my view than the two brotehrs link of supernatural (also one of my favs)


----------



## Dr.Jackson

Bel_Azad said:


> I quite liked the X-files ike stuff it had early on and was a bit dubious about the oter events that happened - last season (three) ended at a great point - but I don't like the current season so far in that it has been like undoing what they did last time around



I know that in the Paley Center interview, John Noble said that this season would be getting back to the heart of the show now that the Red/Blue war storyline is pretty much over.
I don't think they're necessarily undoing the events of season 3 in that (slight S4 spoiler: highlight to read 



Spoiler



they don't remember Peter, even although he returned, he will have to win their trust and prove himself to Broyles, but more importantly Olivia and Walter. I hope the Peter/Olivia relationship will resurface as I think it was largely her emotional connection to him, whether she's aware of it or not now, that brought him back.


) There is also the role of The Observers to consider now. I think they were used to great effect in uniting the two universes, but now that has been accomplished, I wonder how they'll be utilized this season given the new, interesting and unforseen development.


----------



## Warren_Paul

<3 Fringe...

Why is there not a board for Fringe in the featured TV shows! 

Season 4 is looking to be really, _really_ good.


----------



## Lenny

So last night's episode (14) has put an entirely new spin on the whole show, for me.

*SPOILERS IF YOU'VE NOT SEEN S04E14!*
















The revelation that the Observers are time travelling scientists from the future, and September's admission of the massive important of Peter (and Henry), makes me see it in a new light. Sure, we've got Olivia's story, and Peter's, but underlying all of that is a story of a man simply trying to fix a mistake.

Obviously, in the second series we already saw that it was September who set in motion the whole Peternapping situation, but I don't think the importance of that has been made completely clear until now.

On another note, it's nice to finally see altNina.  Though I'm interested to learn how she lost her arm (obviously the 'real' Nina lost it trying to stop Walter crossing over to get altPeter... so how did altNina lose hers?).


----------



## Warren_Paul

*****SPOILERS*****








Most of it wasn't really much of a revelation to me, I'd guessed half of it already. Still, loved to see my suspicions confirmed.  The only new bit I got out of it was the relevance on his child, and yes, that does put a new spin on it. 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suspect he is mistaken about being in a '3rd' reality, this is just the original world with him removed from it, which changed everything. Olivia taking cortexaphan (spelling?) helped her to remember what was lost by the observers ripping him out of the world. It's pretty obvious to me that the observers 'changed' history, rather than him going to a third reality.


----------



## Interference

I'm not going to read the thread as I've just started watching this series (having been intrigued by this thread ) and my first reactions are that it's amazing how good this is turning out to be, given the extremely flawed nature of the pilot and the repetitiveness of the first three or four episodes.

I'm coming to the close of Series One.  X-Files comparisons are obvious, though it would have been wonderful if X-Files could have survived long enough to become this intriguing.  Just how many factions are involved, here?

Thanks, Michael01, for starting the thread and WP and Lenny for bringing it to my attention.  I hope it lives up to my expectations


----------



## Warren_Paul

It's well worth watching Interference, sorry for any spoilers in the above posts. The first season had some interesting episodes, but season two is where things really get started, your in for a treat.


----------



## Interference

No worries.  I've not read the spoilers


----------



## Warren_Paul

******* SPOILERS *******



















I've watched the latest episode, and have to say, I'm surprised with the turn this has taken. I didn't expect it to turn into an 'alien invasion' of sorts. I don't know if I was entirely happy with the big jump forward in time, but it certainly adds a fresh slew of possibilities. 

I do like that we get to meet the grown up version of Peter's daughter and we can see why she was so important. It was interesting to see William Bell again, and especially that he seemed to have some involvement in Olivia's death.

I hope they at least fill in what happened to lead them upto this point, but what I'm suspecting is that time is going to be changed and we will likely jump back to when Peter was ripped from reality, then continue on like normal, with everything back to how it's supposed to be. But that all depends on whether Olivia's actor is still part of the show.

So off to research when her contract with the show expires.


EDIT: Looks like Anna Torv (Olivia) is still part of the cast, so probably going with what I suspect and reverting back to before the observers ripped Peter from existence.


EDIT AGAIN: Saw the promo for 4x20 and it's back to normal, so maybe this episode was a once off, and if so I'm annoyed, because it's too revealing. David Robert Jones is a weak story arc compared to what they have told us is coming now. I'm guessing we are going to revisit this story in season five, the observers will probably arrive to take over the world in the season 4 finale I guess.


----------



## Lenny

The nineteenth episode of each series tends to be their off-norm episode - the first series saw Olivia jumping between universes, the second was the musical episode, and the one in series three was the cartoon episode.

As an episode, I thought it was a bit naff. The idea was good, but the execution was a bit weak, and I really did not appreciate it ending as if there's going to be a second half (which isn't happening - as you say, the next episode is back in modern day, and I believe that final two will be the same, seeing as the David Robert Jones storyline needs to be wrapped up).

My guess is also that we're going to see a revisit to this in the fifth series, assuming Fox renew it (which is looking more likely, but as a final series of fifteen or sixteen episodes, rather than the full run of 22). I just hope that Olivia features some how.

EDIT: Here's a thought - we haven't had any details yet about Mr. X, the man who supposedly kills Olivia. What if the hint we were given in episode nineteen is the underlying story arc of the fifth series, and we see a version of William Bell in direct confrontation with the Fringe team, eventually killing Olivia (as is implied he did so in 2015)? It would make sense for the series to finish with Olivia's death, as Fringe is very much her story (I'd argue it is more so than Peter or Walter's).


----------



## Warren_Paul

I read somewhere that the actor playing Peter's daughter is part of the main cast in the fifth season, so I'm thinking a large part of it is going to be in the dystopia future, and I imagine the cliff-hanger for season 4 will be it starting, before Olivia dies.

I don't think they are able to get Leonard Nimoy back though, that's why they did the cartoon, so they could have his character in the story without the actor himself. I think the voice overs are an impersonator, aren't they?

So his involvement in Olivia's death will be tricky, but yeah, they are implying he is Mr X. Although the other possibility is that David Jones is Mr X and her death is his final move, but that's less likely.

Is there word that the fifth is the final season going around?

EDIT: Upon research I correct myself, Leonard Nimoy did indeed do the voice overs.


----------



## Lenny

It's still up in the air whether Fringe will be renewed, because at this point, the only viewers are the hardcore fans - despite the writer's best efforts, they've not been able to tempt new viewers to watch the latest series. Because of this, another series will most likely be it's last, simply to allow the writers to put together a proper ending to satisfy the fans (it would also give Fringe a total run of just over 100 episodes, which always looks good).

There have been quite a few efforts from Warner Bros. to make Fringe more appealing to Fox, including lowering the licensing fee Fox pay them to show the episodes, which ups it's chances of being renewed. It's also helped in part by the terrible reception *Alcatraz* got (which is a shame, because that's also a good series) - as a result, it's highly unlikely that Alcatraz will be renewed, meaning there's space in Fox's schedule for Fringe.

So, it's likely that there will be a fifth and final series, but just in case, two endings to this series have been filmed - one with a lead in to series five, and one that ends everything nicely.

---

Regarding Leonard Nimoy, I seem to remember reading that he was only contracted to physically appear in four or five episodes. Obviously, his character has technically appeared in a great number more, but he himself will not be returning. However, I wouldn't say the character is completely gone (indeed, Nimoy's likeness was in the amber, probably through some CGI trickery), particularly not with everything we've seen in Fringe regarding alternate realities, shapeshifting, body-snatching, and time-travelling.

If William Bell turns out to be Mr. X, then it will probably be a different version of William Bell to the one we know as Leonard Nimoy. He may appear to be in a new body (we're told a few times that William Bell died in a car crash in the red Universe... but what if it was simply his body that died?), or a much younger form of himself may appear. Heck, what's to stop a cloned version of an earlier form of William Bell rearing it's head? After all, the cartoon representation of Mr. X in the LSD episode did not resemble the present version of William Bell.

Obviously, it may turn out that William Bell is not Mr. X, and that the man himself is someone completely different.

Assuming the future in which the Observers invade is the future for the current timeline (indeed, as beings that aren't constrained by time or reality, it could be that the Observers invaded every single possible timeline in 2015), then we know that William Bell does something to Olivia that means she wasn't ambered along with the rest of the team in 2015 (Walter's exact quote when talking to Astrid is: "You remember what he did to Olivia. Even you can't be that compassionate", implying something truly terrible). It's more likely that William Bell is the main antagonist if there is a fifth series, with Mr. X working for him, than Bell being Mr. X, but either way, I think William Bell will be featured quite heavily in the next storyline.

---

If this does end up being the final series, and the finale to end it all is aired, then I wouldn't put it past David Robert Jones to be Mr. X. With enough plausible explanation, it could work, and it would tie up a thread nicely.


----------



## Warren_Paul

I really don't understand why this show has such a niche audience, it's a brilliant show. Way better than many other shows out there that somehow manage to get renewed...

I'm sure they will finish the story, they better...


----------



## Lenny

The problem seems to be that people just don't have the time to commit themselves to a show that has a strong story from episode to episode - unlike a reality show, it's not really possible to dip into Fringe every now and then.

I think it's a victim of it's own success - a strong first couple of series allowed the writers to weave an incredible story, with fantastic character development. Long-term fans enjoy and stick to it, but casual fans will start to drop off because they don't have the time to follow everything. Miss a couple of episodes, and you'll be lost.


----------



## Warren_Paul

Yeah, I heard the same complaint made about Lost. So many people didn't watch it because they had no idea what was going on as they didn't watch the episodes chronologically, just here and there when they had time.

My thought on the matter is why not? I'd never watch a show without seeing every episode in the order they were released. If I miss an episode, the TV networks have websites these days for catching up on missed episodes, so there isn't really the excuse that 'I missed it' anymore.

I hate episodic shows, it HAS to have a serialised plot that goes from episode to episode for it to be entertaining for me, or at least make a reference to the main plot every episode.

That's why I got bored of The Mentalist, it had a great premise, but every episode ended up being a rehash of the same old thing in the end, with very little given towards the development of the antagonist's story.


----------



## Lenny

Fringe has been renewed!!

As expected, the renewal is for a final series of thirteen episodes, which will air this Autumn.

There's also a teaser trailer, which ends with a familiar, gritty Fringe logo, so I think we can guess where the story is going to go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvWqOZL8JXA

(Doesn't want to embed, for some reason)


----------



## Warren_Paul

Great news. Amazing to see so many old scenes, and realise just how far the show has come.

Fixed embedding


----------



## dragomort

I'm incredibly glad that they're giving it a final send-off season. If only that happened more often for those shows ambitious enough to have an actual storyline.


----------



## Warren_Paul

Yes, networks should finish storylines more often.

Welcome to the SFF Chrons Dragomort.


----------



## dragomort

Thanks!

And it's doubly the case when the network was at least partially to blame with the schedule change (although they did put an awesome promo on the switch)


----------



## Warren_Paul

Yeah that is an awesome promo, but it didn't work. The slot did hurt the show, but that could also be half the reason they continued making it when any other show would have been cancelled. As we can see by this ad, Fox knew they were going to damage its ratings when they made the move.

So we have to commend Fox for letting them finish the story.


----------



## Warren_Paul

SPOILERS












Leonard Nimoy!  Didn't think they'd actually get him back, so happy.

And Astrid! She was kicking butt but then... then... Happy to see she actually can fight though.

So, they are clearly showing how episode 19 comes to be, which is good. So I suspect I'm on track with my assumption, that we will see how they came to be encased in amber in the season finale, and maybe the arrival of the observers. And I guess Leonard Nimoy really is who kills Olivia, Mr X? Or it could be the first observer that does maybe. Perhaps William Bell helps the observers. All we know is he has something to do with what happens to Olivia.


----------



## Lenny

Well, we know that Astrid is ambered at some point, so she has to survive (unless they've gone and changed the future)!

As for Nimoy... I guess I was wrong.  It's nice to see him back, and from what I've read, the showrunners are trying to get him to return to his role for series five. With it being the final series, with no chance of the role becoming something permanent for many years, he may well take it, which would be nice. 

Whilst I expect this series to peter out somewhat (compared to the previous few finales, which went out with a bang... and, I suppose, Peter'd out ), I'm very much looking forward to what can be done next series, particularly with the Mr. X story line.


----------



## Lenny

So, the question is: Henry or Henrietta?


----------



## ctg

I'd ask which universe Bell went into as Nimoy promised that we'll see more of him in the final season. I truly hope we'll going to see how the Observer ruled universe storyline ends or at least how they end in amber and what happens to Olivia.


----------



## Warren_Paul

Lenny said:


> So, the question is: Henry or Henrietta?



Henrietta of course. Alt-Olivia would give birth to a male, but the real Olivia would give birth to a female, that's the difference.


I think as the season finale of this season, we are going to end with something happening to Olivia, not necessarily her getting killed, and them getting encased in amber.

Then the first episode of next season will start after where they left us in episode 19, and it will be 13 episodes of reversing the damage the Observers have done - writing them out of history.

A handless William Bell as the villain, interesting. The question is, why is he working against them, and not trying to help stop the Observers? Bell has his own agenda for some reason.

That's my theory.


----------



## Warren_Paul

SPOILERS









Very interesting season finale, but there is something missing, how does Bell end up in amber with them? He went back to the other reality. If what CTG says is the case, and we will see more of Bell, then I guess they will answer that question in the first episode, or it might just be a handless Bell running around. I wouldn't be surprised if the first episode carries on from where episode 19 left us.


Now, Henrietta thinks Olivia is dead, but as they have brought her back to life, I wonder if she really is dead in the future, or if Henrietta is misinformed.

We saw in episode 19 that Henrietta carries the bullet that killed Olivia, but is that going to change, or does she get shot again...? Can't wait for the next season.



I can see how they could've made that the final episode ever, just cut off the end with September and leave it with the hospital, done.


----------



## ctg

Spoilers

The biggest reason for excitement about Fringe season five is last  season's "Letters of Transit," where we visited the dystopian future of  2036, a world ruled by evil and surprisingly lustful Observers. We sort  of knew that season five was going to be visiting that future again, but  we weren't sure if it would just be for an episode or two, here and  there.


But John Noble told reporters  that the final season will pretty much all take place in 2036 — with  the occasional flashback or bit of "found footage" to fill in the tragic  events of the present day. That doesn't mean Anna Torv is gone from the  show — even though there were hints in "Letters of Transit" that a  terrible fate had befallen her, she'll still make it to 2036 somehow, so  there can be a "mother and daughter" reunion with the grown-up Etta  (Georgina Haig).


As for Walter himself, Noble said he's not done paying for his hubris  in breaking the multiverse back in 1985: "Walter is the man who started  this, so there has to be resolution. There has to be redemption. We  also have to see the final maturing of the relationship between Peter  and Olivia."

http://io9.com/5919744/time-to-get-excited-about-fringe-season-5


----------



## Shane Enochs

I watched the first four or five episodes or so, but I just couldn't get hooked.  I think the reason I didn't like it as much as x-files was because it was slightly too goofy.  I liked the darkness of x-files.  It seemed dangerous.  Fringe just seems... silly.  Maybe if I watched more I'd get hooked, but it hasn't happened at this point for me.


----------



## Warren_Paul

You need to watch a lot more, the show doesn't come into its prime until season 2. The first season has some good episodes but the story isn't developed yet.


----------



## Shane Enochs

Alright, I'll watch the rest of season one and half of season two.  If I don't get hooked, I'm coming after you WP =P


----------



## Lenny

I agree with W_P, but I usually put the number at eight episodes - in each of the four series, things start to kick off around episode eight, and the same is true for the first. Whilst the episode itself isn't brilliant (although it does introduce some nice concepts that form part of the core of the ideas presented in the show), I dare anyone to not want to keep watching after the end of the episode.

As with all shows, it's worth noting that very few hit their stride until a good chunk of the first series has been shown.


----------



## megamaniac

As another poster said, Fringe is goofy and silly, and just doesnt live up to what's it trying to be, The X-Files; which was itself silly.

However, I've watched from the start, and do want to know how it all ends.  I am glad there will be a last season to wrap up, instead of as many shows which are just off the air.


----------



## Cayal

Just started watching the series with my g/f and we both love it. About halfway through the first season so far.


----------



## ctg

Well... Walter is back! Wohoo! When I mean Walter, I don't mean Mister White, but the Walter of Walterinism. He has so much more institutionalism and resolve than the other Walter. Then again Mister White can and will do what Walter would shy of doing. 

Anyways, before I ramble you to sleep I wanted to say that you should watch last season of Fringe to find out how much different the Observer filled world is from our utopistic way of thinking. Some of you maybe could say that it's completely wrong to think that world of tomorrow is going to be filled with dandelions and blue skies. But Fringe world certainly isn't that even if you see the dandelion at the end. So the question is what that little flower means to Walter?


----------



## Warren_Paul

Haven't watched the first episode of the season yet, but just had to post about how excited I am to see it's back.

Plan to watch it tonight.


----------



## psychotick

Hi,

Just finished season four and thought it was great. But that schlock episode in there set in 2036 simply didn't fit. And now I read that season five, only half a season apparently, will be set there. I'm not impressed.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## ctg

psychotick said:


> Just finished season four and thought it was great. But that schlock episode in there set in 2036 simply didn't fit. And now I read that season five, only half a season apparently, will be set there. I'm not impressed.



Why it didn't fit and what you're not impressed about?


----------



## psychotick

Hi,

The future epp comes in at nearly the end of the season, and has the trio (though only Walter and Josh make it into that epp) arriving there through being ambered. It makes no sense within the context of the rest of the season. Initially when I saw it I thought there would be some sort of connection back to 2012, but there just isn't. 

And then there are the observers, who have gone all authoritarian takeover and seem to be extremely nasty, which sort of jars with everything we've known of them so far.

It's like a completely new series with a couple of old characters turning up in it. The Ropers after Man About the House. It doesn't have the same feel to it at all. And I wasn't happy to leave the old series behind anyway.

That's just my view on it anyway.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## ctg

Well, the thing is that you cannot look the final season in the scope of only one season because observers go all the way back to the beginning of the first one. And what we have learned about the observers through four previous seasons is that they have been quietly recording all of the event and even tried to prevent Peter from coming back in the last that ultimately leads for them coming to take over the current world line. 

To me the whole thing makes a lot of sense.


----------



## Warren_Paul

I was very surprised by the events of the latest episode.

SPOILER ALERT











That they could kill off Etta, when she is integral to the story. Makes me wonder if she isn't actually dead. September had made such a big deal about her in the previous season, that she had to be born if they wanted to save the world, and that she was centre to its survival.

Not sure what to think about this.


----------



## Lenny

*SPOILERS FOR S05E04, YO*
















That was... damn...

My only thought is that the title, *The Bullet that Saved the World*, is intentionally misleading whilst also painfully obvious - we've seen Etta playing with the bullet that killed Olivia at the end of the last series, and because we know its significance we assume that the title is a reference to that.

But in the last five minutes, well. We can still say that Etta is important and, yes, that she had to be born so that the world could be saved. But, and it's a bit of a cliché, is the significance of her birth so that she can then die? Her death spurs the team on even more, because now it's not just about their world (albeit a future they're not as invested in), it's personal. The bullet that killed Etta will, eventually, be the bullet that saved the world.


----------



## Riddick

Fringe is one of my favourite shows on TV right now. I've been watching it since the beginning. It originally caught my attention cuz I saw Joshua Jackson's name... that and Anna Torv is pretty hot


----------



## Penkitty

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> The future epp comes in at nearly the end of the season, and has the trio (though only Walter and Josh make it into that epp) arriving there through being ambered. It makes no sense within the context of the rest of the season. Initially when I saw it I thought there would be some sort of connection back to 2012, but there just isn't.
> 
> And then there are the observers, who have gone all authoritarian takeover and seem to be extremely nasty, which sort of jars with everything we've known of them so far.


 
Totally agree with you Greg, this episode is soooo out of place I was sitting there going WTF is going on here! Love Fringe but not sure where the train of thought was here. not looking forward to being back here in season 5 (final season).


----------



## Warren_Paul

Penkitty said:


> Totally agree with you Greg, this episode is soooo out of place I was sitting there going WTF is going on here! Love Fringe but not sure where the train of thought was here. not looking forward to being back here in season 5 (final season).



I'd agree that season 5 doesn't 'feel' like Fringe, but it's still one of the highest quality and most entertaining shows on TV at the moment. If you loosen up your perspective of Fringe a bit and give it a chance, you'll still enjoy watching it.

I don't think it jars with them. They've always been control freaks. 

I think half the problem is that all we really saw of the Observers - other than a few group meetings - was September's perspective of things, but September is the only one of them that actually cares about people, so his personality skewers our perspective of them a bit. But through his foreboding this was all predicted to happen. The rest were evil compared to him - they had no compassion or feelings at all - and were just studying humanity for the sake of building up to this point.

You look back at every scene involving September and you'll see it's always been working up to this point. He's been spending the entire show, from the very first season, trying to stop the Observers from ruining the past like they did the future. And the only way to do that was to ensure Peter survived his fall into the lake, that there was a way to bring him back when the other Observers - suspecting what September was up to - removed him from reality under the pretence of 'fixing' time, and to ensure Peter and Olivia had Etta. Everything was September setting his pieces in place to ensure the Observers were defeated. 

We thought at first that September was in Walter's lab, and interrupted him by accident and caused Peter's death, merely because the Observers 'Observe' things, but that wasn't the case at all. The truth is, September was in that lab, watching Walter, because Peter _had _to live, because he was the key to ensuring all the pieces got to where they needed to be in order to defeat the Observers. And when September screwed it up so badly, he pushed Walter towards retrieving the alternative Peter as a replacement so that September's plan would still work.

Granted, now that the end of the show is in sight, they've changed a bit of the plot to force an ending before it was due, but the concept remains the same I believe.


----------



## Lenny

Well, I cried. Told myself I wasn't going to, and tried to stop myself, but I still cried (three times! Twice before the episode had even entered the final act!). And I'm a person who doesn't cry.

I started watching Fringe back in May 2011, and it's been my favourite programme ever since, and probably will remain my favourite programme for many years to come.

Whilst the fourth series couldn't really live up to the incredible third series (which I think is only topped by the two-part finale to series two), it makes for far better viewing the second time round, and I think the same will be true of the fifth series.

Now it's all finished, I really look forward to being able to do a marathon from start to finish, but at the same time I mourn its passing - I don't think we're likely to see anything with such a rich mythology, or as well-developed characters, for a very long time.

I'm actually tearing up again, now.


----------



## ctg

Awww, that was such ending, but I don't understand how the white tulip ended, where it ended at the end. I might have to watch the final episode couple of times to get it even though I suspect that September had something to do with it. 

But how... if the plan worked... how all of that was possible as the observers were so crucial to everything? Did we see one possible time-line ending to allow main time-line to continue without the threat?


----------



## Lenny

[END OF SERIES FIVE SPOILERS]







I was wondering about that since the plan was revealed - I just assumed that, should the plan work, the Observers would never come about at all. Thinking it through, I realised that the Norwegian doctor would still make all of his discoveries, albeit with a newfound respect for emotion, and humanity would still evolve to be like the Observers, with the key difference being that when the original twelve are sent back in time, it's not as a recon party, but something else - the fact that humanity evolves with emotion meant that the Observers would not even contemplate the invasion.

Essentially, everything we saw with the Observers up to the end of series four (excluding *4.19: Letters of Transit*) still comes to pass, as "the boy is important - he must live" applies to Peter and the healing of both worlds. However, "the boy is important - he must live" will not apply to Michael, the child Observer, as the Observer invasion is never going to take place.

I agree that September has to have something to do with passing on the white tulip - the Observers have shown before that they have memory of timelines even when they have been reset, so either he sent it on behalf of Walter, or September told Walter that he was going to be erased by nature at a certain point in time and so Walter sent it himself.


----------



## ctg

Thing is that Walter told Peter that "He and The Child Observer would simply disappear at year 2015" as the scientist would find a new way forward. But that also means - at least in my mind - that the observers shouldn't be possible as they wouldn't be sent in the past. And that also would mean that September wouldn't be saving Walter and Peter from the icy lake bottom. 

So what we saw at that park shouldn't be possible ... at least not by my logic, but I'm willing to accept that they are now living a new timeline, where the bridge is still standing and the two worlds are continuing to work with each other.


----------



## Warren_Paul

FINALE SPOILERS










I almost agree with that Lenny, and it is my understanding of the situation, but I have a thought about what I think might be a plot hole and it comes from when September interrupted Walter the moment he discovered the cure to Peter's sickness, resulting in the original Peter's death. There are two ways out of it and both come from September believing Peter's continued existence critical to both. 

The outcome of the show would have us believe that September was there to ensure Peter's survival because he was critical to the plan to stop the observers, and when September stuffed up and caused his death, he had to help Walter retrieve the alternative Peter so that the plan would still work; so that Etta would still be born.

If the reason September was there was because of Season 5's plan, then it must be the case that the Peter we see once time reset is not the alternative Peter, but the original. I say this because September would never have been in the laboratory that night, and he would never have interrupted Walter. Walter would have discovered the cure, and his Peter would have lived.

The problem with this theory is that the alternative reality story arc would never have happened then, because Walter would never have crossed over to retrieve Peter.

----------------

If the reason September was there was because of Season 3's restoring balance to the realities with the machine. Then September must have still interrupted Walter and caused Peter's death. We know this because the reason the balance was broken between the realities was because Walter crossed over to retrieve the alternative Peter. The only reason he would have done this is because the original Peter still died.

The problem with this theory is that the purpose behind the observers going back in time was to find a suitable time to invade - we are told this in the conversation between September and December - they were instructed to go back in time for this very purpose, although they didn't know that at the time. If the observers never invaded, then September would never have been in the laboratory, he never would have caused Peter's death, the balance of the realities never would have been screwed up.

The problem really comes down to _why_ September was in the laboratory that night. Was it because he needed Etta to be born, or was it because he needed Peter to save the world, or was it because Walter's discover of the cure was such a significant point in time that September felt the need to observe it.

I'm thinking it _must _be the latter; September was there to observe the discovery, not because he needed Peter to live, but because he was _curious _about Walter's discovery. But by being curious, he screwed up the timeline and set in motion the events of the first three seasons. That's the only way I see getting around what could be a major plot hole.

I think we have to assume that the twelve still came back in time, but for a different, more genuine reason; to truly observe the most significant points in time. And Walter's discovery of the cure was one of those major points. I guess we can accept this because they still exist in the future, because the scientists still invented them. The whole point of the plan was to show that they didn't need to sacrifice emotions to enhance their intelligence, not that they should stop their research altogether. 

So if they still retained their emotions, they wouldn't have ruined the future world from their lack of care for it, and would never have had a reason to invade the past. Once again that comes back to the reason why they went back in time in the first place. For the outcome to work, they must have changed their reason to travel back in time.

Or the other possibility is that none of that happened at all, and that Olivia ended up marrying the original Peter -- who never died. There was no collapse of the realities, there was no building of the machine, and the show merely revolved around the first season's exploring the Pattern which just ended up being William Bell's little experimentations. The Pattern story arc had to still happen because otherwise Peter and Olivia would never have met.


On another note: that was some amazing acting in the last episode. So emotional and don't worry Lenny, you weren't the only one crying throughout the episode.


----------



## Lenny

My original understanding was also that Michael's introduction to the Norwegian scientist would wipe out the Observers as we know them - it's how Dontember explained it to Walter and the gang, and it was also mentioned by December when Dontember asked him for the favour. If that were the case, then Peter should have been cured by Walternate (who would have seen the reaction that September caused him to miss) and our Olivia would never have seen Etta again (unless she and John Scott had a baby and called her Henrietta).

Seeing Peter and Olivia playing with Etta without an Observer invasion, I guess I changed the plan in my head.  So rather than wiping out the Observers, my assumption is that after meeting Michael, the Norwegian scientist changed his plans to wipe out emotion to increase intelligence, and instead used Michael's brain as a template for higher intelligence without removing emotion.

We saw Peter, Olivia, and Etta in the park at the point when the 2015 invasion took place in the series four timeline, which suggested to me that everything we saw in the first four series took place - in both timelines we saw, Walter could not save his Peter and so stole alt-Peter. He only did so because Walternate was distracted by September, and it's made clear that the thought of not being able to save alt-Peter, despite having the cure, drove him to tear a hole between Universes. If September had not distracted Walternate, alt-Peter would have been cured on the other side. Thus, Walter would not have torn a hole between Universes, subsequently the fringe events wouldn't have happened (neither side would know there is another side, and the laws of physics wouldn't be weakened enough for fringe events to take place), and Olivia wouldn't have met up with Walter and Astrid (as she did in the series four timeline).

In short - seeing Peter and (blonde) Olivia together means that September first distracted Walternate, and then saved Walter and alt-Peter. So logically (my logic, at least!), September exists, and by extension, so must the Observers.

Because September and the Observers as a race exist, but the 2015 invasion doesn't happen, we can assume that the Observers have evolved with a difference significant enough to change their motives.

I know it's a long stretch, but putting it all together draws me to the conclusion that the Norwegian scientist still did the research that eventually resulted in the Observers, except he added emotion.

EDIT: I'm trying to write this out using classical logic (if just to prove to myself the logic is sound and I'm not making circular conclusions), but it's proving a bit complicated to break down into axioms.

EDIT2: Damn, this took me a lot longer to write out than it should have done. It looks like Warren and I have come to similar conclusions - the Observers still evolved from the Norwegian scientist's research, but with emotions.


----------



## Warren_Paul

Ah, I think I made a mistake in my theory. It was Walternate that got distracted? That's right... I remember now.

Okay, but the same outcome still happens. 

September _has _to be in the laboratory, but no matter what, Walter was always going to cross over. I say this, because if Walternate hadn't been interrupted by September, and had cured alt Peter, then Walter would have very likely kidnapped the cured Peter to replace his Peter who died before that night in the laboratory.

That's a very confusing sentence...

Okay, so knowing my mistake, this is what happened:



Peter in blue reality dies because Walter can't figure out the cure.
Walter starts watching through the window into the red reality.
September went to Walternate's laboratory in the red reality to witness the discovery of the cure either because he was curious or because he knew Walter would cross over anyway to kidnap the cured Peter, and wanted to ensure Peter lived to control the machine, but distracts Walternate at the critical moment. September wanted to stop the damage from being done to the realities, but by interfering he was the catalyst of it instead.
Walter, who was watching Walternate at the critical moment, knows the way to save Peter, so crosses over into the Red reality and brings Peter back, and in doing so breaks the balance of the realities.
September saves them from the lake because the only way to repair the damage he caused by prompting Walter to cross over is to ensure Peter lives to control the machine.
Everything continues on like normal until the fourth season.
September never comes back to warn them that the observers are coming at the end of season 4 - and the future episode never happens.
September never removes Peter from time. So the events of the fourth season never happen.*
The Yellow reality never existed.**
At the end of the third season, Peter isn't sucked away, and the machine restores balance, so the blue and red reality end up working together peacefully like they were before the gate was closed for good.





* Peter was removed from the timeline because the observers suspected the threat he was to their existence. But September interfered with their plans, knowing that Peter had to exist, so he created a way for Peter to be brought back.***

** The storyline of the fourth season was based on a what if Peter never existed reality, and it ended up making it so that David Robert Jones who should have been dead was still alive and causing trouble. With Peter never being taken out of the timeline, David died at the time he was supposed to. Did Bell still do the same thing as he did in season 4, just without David's help? We'll never really know, but I think _something _happened, because Etta is still the same age as she was in the yellow reality. If everything went on as fine in the blue reality and the yellow reality never happened, then wouldn't have Olivia got pregnant sooner? So, yes, yellow reality never happened, but something else happened in the blue reality to delay Etta's birth.


*** The only way I can see Peter still being removed from the timeline is if the observers wanted to make it so that Walter never crossed over, and in doing so never damaged the realities. But if he never crossed over, then how come the machine still exists in the yellow reality? I'll have to look it up, but did they invent an explanation for this in season 4? I don't remember. And why would September create a way for Peter to come back? That's why I think the purpose was never to fix the damage done to the realities, and that was just an excuse used to make September co-operate. The real reason was to stop September's plan.


----------



## Lenny

Aww man, that's kind of sad - sure, Lincoln's partner never got killed, which is a plus, but he also never got to the other side and built a family with Fauxlivia.

Whilst alt-Lincoln may have ended up doing the same with Fauxlivia, it's not his family picture we saw, so I don't mind him snuffing it until the cows come home (though we can't guarantee that he and Fauxlivia would have had a family - maybe blue Lincoln consoling Fauxlivia was the catalyst that made her act on her feelings for [any version of] Lincoln?).

---

I see what I think may be a flaw, though - the original twelve did not know the reason for their mission, so could not know that Peter was a threat to them, surely?

I always thought that they removed him because he was an anomaly in the timeline - a result of September's interference.

EDIT: Duuuude! Stealth-edit...


----------



## Warren_Paul

Sorry, yeah. I had more thoughts after I'd posted it. 

Very true, it was the other twelve, not Windmark that made him remove Peter, wasn't it... I don't know then. Will have to think on that.


----------



## Warren_Paul

Okay, so it can possibly make sense that the other twelve were completely oblivious to September's plan and all they thought about doing was correcting the mistakes September had made with his interference, and to them, that was erasing Peter's existence. They wanted to fix the world by resetting time back to before Walter crossed over to get Peter.

If that is so, then they'd still want to remove him from time, even though September had already fixed the balance of the realities.

But if we take that avenue and use it to say that the yellow reality still happened, then why did September create a way for him to come back? And why did the machine still exist if it was created for Peter to use? Why create something for somebody who never existed? 

I was given the impression that Peter was able to come back because he was needed for the season 5 plan to be a success, because it required Etta. That's why September left behind a trace of him. So if the invasion wasn't going to happen, then when he was removed from time, there would be no reason to bring him back, and in fact it would be better for the world if he'd never existed, because then the damage to realities would never have happened. So I am still of the opinion that he was never removed from time in the reset, because otherwise, the ending of the final episode would be impossible. Both him and Etta wouldn't exist.

In regards to the twelve, for all we know they could have been acting on orders they got from Windmark or somebody else in charge who suspected September had ulterior motives, and once again oblivious to the real reason behind those orders.

Here's another question though. Does resetting time in blue reality reset it in red as well? We don't know the answer, but if it doesn't, then Lincoln is still with Fauxlivia in the red reality, and there is a third version of him in blue reality. Time was reset in both realities in season 4 because Peter was tied intrinsically to both realities. But the observers never invaded the red reality, only the blue. So resetting the observers had nothing to do with the red reality which means it's possible that the red reality went on like normal with alt-lincoln dead, Lincoln in a relationship with Fauxlivia and everyone happy ever after. To give everyone a happy ending that's what I'm going to believe; that the red reality wasn't reset.


----------



## Erin99

Lenny said:


> Well, I cried. Told myself I wasn't going to, and  tried to stop myself, but I still cried (three times! Twice before the  episode had even entered the final act!). And I'm a person who doesn't  cry.
> 
> I started watching Fringe back in May 2011, and it's been my favourite  programme ever since, and probably will remain my favourite programme  for many years to come.
> 
> Whilst the fourth series couldn't really live up to the incredible third  series (which I think is only topped by the two-part finale to series  two), it makes for far better viewing the second time round, and I think  the same will be true of the fifth series.
> 
> Now it's all finished, I really look forward to being able to do a  marathon from start to finish, but at the same time I mourn its passing -  I don't think we're likely to see anything with such a rich mythology,  or as well-developed characters, for a very long time.
> 
> I'm actually tearing up again, now.


I haven't read the rest of the posts (too long, and I'm only adding to them - oops!), but here goes:*


!!!!!!!SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!*

Seph and I didn't cry. I feel Nina's death was more emotional than any other. In fact, I feel the opposite from you, Lenny, and I've been a huuuuge fan for years. I feel a little let down. I don't feel the paradox could be healed by Walter going as well as the kid, too. Once the kid got to the future and the future people saw what he was, they would never create Observers (ha! Yeah right. 'Course they would - they'd love the kid's powers!). This in turn means that if they stopped the Observer creation, the kid was never born and thus was never there to show them NOT to go down that same path of creating Observers...

I like that Walter would have existed until a certain point, though, which (I think) means Peter and everyone remembers him, although he isn't around in the new, fixed future... 


Anyway, I felt Fringe could have done more with their final SHORT series, but it seems like they just send the gang on an item-of-the-week quest so they could build the machine at the end. And, if you noticed, those dangerous red rocks weren't so dangerous because September handled them without even gloves or a hazard suit! SO it felt like that entire episode where they got the red rocks (which was emotional) was all for drama, since they didn't follow it through.

I must admit, though, I loved seeing the alternate universe. I hoped they would show it, somehow. But blimey! I had to suspend my disbelief when Olivia didn't really suffer serious side-effects from the four doses of cortexifan. Also, looking back, I feel like the show didn't live up to its potential. They had so many great ideas but they just let them fizzle away. Olivia's powers could have been amazing - they hinted enough at it - but what really came of them? _Really?_ I mean, in one episode she switched on all those lights that the psycho wanted her to, promising Big Things to come... and, what, the Big Thing was that she was going to be an energy source - a battery! - for Spock's plans, since the other baddie had died?

Also, Olivia's daughter - I didn't feel anything at her death, because I barely knew her. And then suddenly her face was on every resistance poster, which didn't make sense as no one knew she was in the resistance until her death.

Also, Peter got an implant - wow! - but that fizzled out, too, until I was left wondering what the point was... Was it just another parcel of random excitement that filled an episode or two until the end episode? I felt the final series should have been working up towards a big end, and I didn't feel I got that.

So, uh, as much as I LOVE the alternate-universe series, and Walter's humour, and Olivia and Peter's relationship, I am left somewhat disappointed... But I'm glad I stayed with them all till the end.


----------



## Erin99

Just another thought...


As regards those above (yes, I've now read some of it!), I don't feel you could make a race of Observers WITH emotions (if they'd had to lose emotions to fit in intelligence in the first place, what would they have to lose this time???) and still call them Observers. They would be so different, think so differently, they would not do the same things, or care about the same things, that the original ones did. You couldn't guarantee that events would happen the same way if these people had compassion and love and such.

Would they even care about the same things?

No, I think everyone's trying to fit explanations into something that just wasn't planned very well, as horrid as it is for me to write that...

And that's not to say I'm not a huge fan of the series. In fact, that series is, quite literally, the only thing Seph and I watch(ed) after Lost finished. Our TV is dusty...


----------



## Lenny

I agree that so much more could have been done with the fifth series, but at the end of the day I've always seen Fringe as more characters in a story, than a story with characters.

I too wish that things like Peter the Observer could have been stretched over more episodes (at one point I thought Peter was going to become Windmark - similar faces, y'know), and it felt like they were storylines that had to be chopped significantly because of the shorter series length... but they still had a point. Peter the Observer, for example, set up Michael's big plan: Peter was trying to kill Windmark. He managed to get his lieutenants, but he couldn't get the big boss, who worked out the plan. Michael, however, played a longer game and achieved it! By stepping off the train and getting caught, the team eventually reached the point where they had to re-introduce Cortexiphan to Olivia's system. She rescued Michael and they made it to the final act. In the final act, up pops Windmark at the vital moment and he is killed by none other than Olivia and her amazing mind (the lights in the city went down, Windmark realised something was up, but was flattened by the cars Olivia smashed together before he could escape). Yeah, the Cortexiphan should have been burned out of her system by the jumps to and from the other side, but hey...

Putting the ending aside for one minute (the brain cogs are still whirring though - I *will* shoehorn in an explanation that works! ), a friend has mentioned something that I completely passed over - the new Observers (whether or not they can be called that is a different matter) are designed by Walter.

The cleverest guy on earth happens to go forwards in time with a boy to inspire a race of highly intelligent, deeply emotional humans. I can't for a second believe that he wouldn't have had a hand (maybe even taking the role of the "scientist in Norway"). In a way, it would also satisfy his original desire to build a new world with Belly, except this time, he has full brain capacity _and_ his emotions - God-Walter who can do anything and damn the consequences does not return, but is replaced by a loving Walter who can do anything.

That's an interesting parallel (from a writing perspective, at least) - Walter's journey in the fifth series mirrors the evolution of the Observers when Michael is sent forward in time.


----------



## ctg

But Leisha look at the Child Observed and you see he didn't had any emotions. They were hidden better than Winmark rage, which was really obvious. He wasn't simply OCD over the team. He was properly consumed by the hate against the humanity. And I appriciated JJA's nod towards the Walkowski Brothers. I mean you cannot really miss that matrix reference.

I also noticed that September didn't handle the rocks properly, but how much he'd really to lose? He's the professional, when it comes to the time-travelling and I believe that he knew how to handle the material. And if they'd had given enough of time, I believe that the proper time-machine would had been written in the story.

So we can wish that JJA get enough of money from the Star Trek to be able to make a TV movie or an alternative version to our ending. It would fit the canon, wouldn't it?


----------



## ctg

> The Fringe finale left plenty of questions unanswered, but did it really need to tie up every last detail for its fans?
> 
> 
> 
> *Spoiler warning: for obvious reasons, don't read this until you've seen the Fringe finale. *
> 
> _Fringe_ brought its five seasons to a close last Friday, and  we’ve had a few days now to let it all sink in. We’ve mourned the  passing of the show while celebrating its delightfully unexpected  swansong, we’ve had a commemorative meal of root beer float and Red  Vines, we’ve tried to alleviate our withdrawal by deciding to watch all  of _Alias_ from the beginning. But when all’s said and done, do we feel satisfied, as if swamping after a good roast dinner?
> 
> _Fringe_’s series finale and the episodes leading up to it  answered a lot of our questions. Donald was September. The Child  Observer was September’s son, Michael. Sam Weiss (MIA since the  re-setting of the timeline at the end of season three) was still poking  his nose in and got himself killed helping our heroes. Walter never  forgave William Bell for what he did to Olivia and left him in amber.  Fauxlivia and Clark Kent-Lincoln Lee were happily married and had a son.  Walter, as we’d always suspected, really did know Astrid’s name.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But there were plenty of questions left unanswered as well. The  biggie: if the Observers have been wiped from existence, why is Peter  still in our universe? Walternate should have been able to cure him Over  There (because he wasn’t distracted by September) and none of the  series should have happened. And other questions: does it ever bother  Peter that his son winked out of existence when he did? What happened to  the shady characters chasing Peter in season one, Agent Amy Jessup from  the beginning of season two, Rachel and Ella or Scarlie? What was going  on with September and December, and did all the original twelve  Observers end up going soft? Why does September confirm that he meant  Michael when he said "the boy must live", when it’s very clear from  watching _Peter_ that he does mean Peter? Did Michael know  exactly how everything was going to go down and, therefore, did he  knowingly let his father die? If so, why? And what on earth was up with  Nina and Broyles snogging way back in the season two premiere?
> 
> 
> Some of these questions may yield reasonable answers with just a bit  of fan-tweaking. Peter was an anomaly anyway, having popped back into  existence for no reason at all early in season four, so presumably  anything relating to him and his presence Over Here – and the creation  of the door that Walter wouldn’t have otherwise needed to create,  sparking off the whole series – is just a bit, for want of a better  phrase, wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey. Amy Jessup obviously found better  things to do and there were brief handwaves in season four to get rid of  Rachel and Ella and Scarlie. The mysterious criminals who were after  Peter disappeared so long ago everyone’s probably forgotten about them,  and as of season four Peter never existed for them anyway. But some  things will remain eternally a mystery – there’s just no explanation for  Nina and Broyles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps the real question is, _should_ the finale have answered all our questions? Is it the job of a series finale to wrap everything up in a neat little bow? As io9 has pointed out, _Fringe_  was always more about family, and parent/child relationships in  particular, than it was about weird science (this had been obvious from  at least season two – just count how many season two episodes are about  parents going to extreme lengths for their children. Or, in one case,  performing dangerous scientific experiments on their children). If we  didn’t already know that emotional truth was more important to the show  than scientific accuracy, Peter’s utterly nonsensical existence in  season two, and Olivia’s equally nonsensical recovery of her memories of  him, was a dead giveaway. So why might we expect more from the series  finale?
> 
> 
> Perhaps _Fringe_’s problem is that, when it comes to long-term storytelling and payoff, it set the bar too high too early on. Season two’s _Peter_ is  one of the most satisfying revelation-episodes in a long term story arc  that you’re ever likely to see. At that point in the series (before  season three’s _Subject 13_, which is one big continuity hole), _Peter_ offers  an explanation for slow-burning plots that ties in to the tiniest hints  dropped throughout seasons one and two (Peter thought GI Joe’s scar was  on the other side of his face, he’s always hated custard even though  Walter insists he enjoyed it as a child) as well as explaining most of  the bigger mysteries that the show had been pursuing up to that point –  not only why Peter has a gravestone and Walter remembers his death and a  partial explanation for why September saved them from drowning in  Reiden Lake, but also an explanation for the Pattern and for why Fringe  events have been happening at all. And the explanation itself is a  doozy: Walter caused all these Fringe events, causing thousands of  deaths in our universe and probably millions Over There, because he was  desperate to save a single life, that of his son. It’s a beautiful and  yet chilling metaphor for the abuse of science, but more importantly for  the lengths to which a parent will go to save their child. In _Peter_, the logic of the science fiction and emotion come together to create an almost perfect arc-based episode.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So maybe that’s why we might have expected more from the _Fringe_ finale. We’d all like to recreate the experience of watching _Peter_ for  the first time and being impressed by a story arc that had been so  carefully thought out and that came together so beautifully. But TV  writers and producers can only do so much intricate long-term planning  and after five years, it’s probably not possible to tie all the loose  ends up so neatly (not to mention the host of anomalies created by  season four).
> 
> 
> But that one, big unanswered question – why did the timeline snap  back into place in 2015 when the Observers had had such a huge impact on  events before that date? – will still bother some viewers.  Ultimately, it comes down to how far you are willing to suspend  disbelief in terms of science fiction for the sake of emotional truth.  Because (Nina and Broyles’ alternate timeline hijinks aside) _Fringe_’s  emotional stories were wrapped up perfectly in this finale. Olivia gets  the chance to be a mother, Walter shows Astrid how much she means to  him, Broyles kicks ass and a few episodes earlier, Nina proved her true  mettle when she killed herself to protect our heroes. And the most  important of all, those last words Peter mouthed to Walter as he stepped  through the portal – "I love you, Dad." From their frosty reunion in  the pilot, through the shattering revelations of the end of season two,  to putting Peter on the opposite foot in season four when suddenly he  had to pursue Walter’s love instead of vice versa, _Fringe_’s  five-year story has been about Walter’s love for his son and,  eventually, his son’s for him. For some, that won’t be enough, for a  story that doesn’t make logical sense will remain forever naggingly  unsatisfying. For others, that swell of emotion renders all logical  inconsistencies null and void. Both points of view are equally valid:  both will be as strongly felt.
> 
> 
> So, what do you think? Should the _Fringe_ finale have answered all our questions?


 http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/fringe/24174/should-the-fringe-finale-have-answered-all-our-questions


----------



## Warren_Paul

The biggest misconception is that viewers think the purpose of sending Michael into the future was to stop the Observers from ever existing, which just isn't true. It was to stop the scientists from removing the emotional part of their brain to enhance intelligence. When December said they would cease to exist in the discussion with September, he meant cease to exist _as they know them_. The observers that Walter guides into creation with Michael's help in the future are a completely different type of observer. We know for a fact that the observers still exist because the white flower card still gets to Peter in the final scene of the finale - an observer _delivered _that card.

I think people just aren't using their thinking caps, but oh well. Thanks for the links, ctg.


----------



## Connavar

Im a new Fringe fan since i watched last week Seasons 1-3 on Netflix.  I have seen some eps of season 1 earlier and stopped watching because i thought it was too much X-Files copy.  Season 2 and the whole battle,struggles with the alternate world made it more fascinating, better story, character wise.  Im hoping that story, war and struggles end well.  Also hope the finale of season 5 isnt weak.   Fringe is a rarely smart SF tv show.  Most of SF tv shows in recent years deserved to be cancelled, just not good enough.

Im surprised and glad that Fox gave Fringe 5 seasons and didnt cancel it.


----------



## ctg

It was cancelled but they gave it 16 weeks to finish the storyline.


----------



## Connavar

ctg said:


> It was cancelled but they gave it 16 weeks to finish the storyline.



5 seasons is good for that channel.  I have read that they werent sure if there were gonna be a season 5 so they completed the main storylines in season 4 which is good.  Its worse when they dont get to finish storylines and the creators never finish the series like they want to.

I cant blame Fox for the cancelation, US ratings was bad for years with Fringe and they cancelled shows with more viewers.  Someone had good taste to keep it around.  Im more annoyed there isnt a room for a SF like this on US tv.  Its must be some superhero or some horror series to a hit.  A great show like X-Files wouldnt even survive with the lack of viewer for SF in US tv right now.

Shame us internationals fans dont count like US comics companies count international comic sales.  Fringe was big over here.


----------



## Anthony G Williams

My take on the whole series, from my SFF blog: Science Fiction & Fantasy

Well, I have finally reached the end of *Fringe*. It has unquestionably been one of the highlights of my TV watching over the last year, and will remain in my mind for a long time. I have been reflecting on why I found it so special.

In my first take on the series (posted in January 2013), which I wrote after watching only the first few episodes, I commented that Fringe frequently involved gruesome X-Files type biological/medical scenes which pushed it towards the horror field. On the other hand, it starred Australian actress Anna Torv as Agent Olivia Dunham, who "has immediately joined the select group of actors whose presence is an incentive for me to watch whatever she's in". I compared it with *Warehouse 13*, which I started at the same time but subsequently stopped watching after the first couple of series as it was too lightweight and repetitive to hold my attention, whereas I remained gripped by Fringe through all 100 episodes.

The second time I commented on *Fringe* was in September, when I wrote "*Fringe* continues to impress, with Anna Torv playing Agent Olivia Dunham (actually two of them, in parallel worlds) still very much the highlight of the series. The way she shifts body language and expressions depending on which Liv she's playing is fascinating; the uncertainty and vulnerability of the 'original' Liv, the result of experiments she was subjected to as a child, being replaced by the bold swagger of the confident 'alternate Liv' who did not experience that. The progress of the plot threads is somewhat erratic, with some episodes focusing on carrying forwards the intriguing parallel worlds mystery while others take a time-out for more or less unrelated *X-Files *type weird events."

This remained true for much of the series although as the climax of the final season approached, the parallel worlds plot was wound up (but not forgotten) and replaced by a new threat: the invasion of the bald, robotic Observers, supermen from the far future who set about ruining the Earth's atmosphere to suit what they were used to. I wondered beforehand how it might end – perhaps an all-action finale in which the Fringe team battle their way to their goal, getting killed off one by one until Olivia succeeds in thwarting the Observers' plan with her final dying effort? Not quite – in fact, not at all like that. The conclusion was satisfactory (with some reservations) but the pace surprisingly slow, with time-out being taken for various protracted emotional scenes - which I would have preferred rather less of.

It is probably not a good idea to think too deeply about the internal logic of the plotting in the final series. Having previously established the get-out-of-jail-free card of all time-travel series – the existence of parallel universes, thereby neatly sidestepping all of the usual paradoxes – the story line ultimately depends upon changing their existing time line rather than creating a new one. This throws up all of the usual "suppose you kill your own grandfather" type of questions. However, the story charges forward with such conviction and pizzazz that the plot holes rarely become obvious at the time of watching.

So, what was the basis of the appeal? An intriguing premise, much better than the *X-Files *because it was so much more than a collection of macabre stories; variety in the story lines with an overarching plot which kept developing in new and interesting ways; and above all, a really great ensemble cast backing up the deservedly multi-award-winning Anna Torv and making the most of the generous opportunities for character development. They really drew me into their world and made me care about what happened to them, which is the ultimate test of any fiction, written or on screen.


----------



## Connavar

Im watching season 5 on Netflix currently and it doesnt feel like as ambitious.  Too few characters and limited scope the future story compared to epic sf stories of parallel universes clashing, different timeline of earlier series.  Understandably the cancellation changed the way the final season became.

Still overall the series is my fav, best of its kind.  Much better premise, more consistent series than compared to series like X-Files.


Anna Torv is to me the standout performer of the series and she is to me an actress i will follow when she does other works.  I hope she gets to star in other strong tv series.


----------



## Dave

Anthony G Williams said:


> It is probably not a good idea to think too deeply about the internal logic of the plotting in the final series. Having previously established the get-out-of-jail-free card of all time-travel series – the existence of parallel universes, thereby neatly sidestepping all of the usual paradoxes – the story line ultimately depends upon changing their existing time line rather than creating a new one.


I'm watching the final season now and this did cross my mind. I also wondered why not, having mastered time travel so eloquently, the Observers didn't try to conquer all the other alternative universes (much as the Kromaggs did in _Sliders_) but instead they only exist in our own timeline. Then maybe that explanation is still to be given to me in the remaining episodes.

And I deliberately avoided some of the spoilers about what is still to come but someone did say that they enjoyed it until it became _Star Trek _in the 5th Season and that has intrigued me for 4 Seasons now. I still don't consider it anything like _Star Trek_ even though I just saw a redshirt die inside the subspace bubble in S5:06. 

I also felt very little when Etty died. She hadn't been around long enough to mean much. It seemed to be just an excuse for Peter to turn to the dark side in his interrogation of the Observer. Then he inserted the cyber-tech into his brain. I hope that actually leads somewhere, because I just read a comment that it is buried.

I've really enjoyed the series though, for all of its faults. I'll now get back to the final 7 episodes.


----------



## Dave

Watched all episodes and read your posts now. Your theories sound solid, and for the most part the continuity of the series is actually very good. I particularly like the way in the future they very casually used a lot of the technology that Fringe episodes had first discovered such as the glass recorded, sound reading machine and generating power from the mineral that David Robert Jones was mining. I also liked the way that in early Season 5 they used weapons from past cases like the rotting virus, and that parasite they used in the last episode. Olivia's powers from the Cortexiphan too, established throughout the series but brought to a climax in the final minutes.

Like you, I have a problem understanding the paradoxes of Peter and Lincoln. My assumption was that the original twelve were a precursor to the invasion. If the invasion no longer takes place then the mission of the twelve doesn't take place either. I also thought that September disturbed Walter during his work which caused him to miss the positive value in his experiment that would lead to a cure for Peter. He therefore felt responsible for Peter dying, and so when Walter and alt-Peter were about to die, he rescued them. Without September, Walter discovers the cure in time, saves Peter and therefore Peter exists and therefore Etta exists. Walter does not cross over into the alt-universe, none of that story occurs. Lincoln never goes and stays there.

But what about Belli? Belli still crosses over and manipulates things, but he never works with the Observers because they aren't there.

The plot of the chip in Peter's head didn't just fizzle out as Leisha said. He realised that it was turning him into an emotionless Observer and took it out again. He did get all the information that he was ever going to get, and still couldn't catch Windmark with it. I didn't have a problem with that at all.

I probably have more of a problem that the future just wasn't futuristic enough. Surveillance by the Observers was pretty poor. They had car tracking in the alternative universe in 2009 so why not in ours in 2026? And how they were never discovered in the Harvard Lab despite drawing all that power for weeks. Difficult to believe the loyalist guards only checked it over the one single time.



Warren_Paul said:


> The biggest misconception is that viewers think the purpose of sending Michael into the future was to stop the Observers from ever existing, which just isn't true.


You know, I never thought that until I read it here from you, but if true, I can see why. In the "last time on Fringe" part at the start of the last episode they have Peter say this, cut from a longer, earlier conversation. He doesn't mean that but it is exactly what he says on the clip shown.



Anthony G Williams said:


> The conclusion was satisfactory (with some reservations) but the pace surprisingly slow, with time-out being taken for various protracted emotional scenes - which I would have preferred rather less of.


But the the same was true for the whole series not just the final 13 episodes. It was always about the emotional journey (especially that of Walter) and the pace of the arc story was excruciatingly slow. As Lenny says:





Lenny said:


> ...at the end of the day I've always seen Fringe as more characters in a story, than a story with characters.


That kind of very slow, character-driven long story arc is what JJ Abrams is known for isn't it? Only on _Dollhouse _and_ Firefly_ the shows got cancelled before he could finish. In _Dollhouse_ you learn more in the final two episodes than the rest of them. And we still don't know everything about the _Firefly_ story. At least, Season 5 gave good closure and tied up loose ends.


----------



## Bugg

I'm just starting to re-watch Fringe - saw the first five episodes over the last few days.  It was like seeing an old friend.  My enthusiasm for it was stoked again when a friend who likes similar fare to myself asked me for recommendations and I found out she had never seen it.  Of course, imagine my frustration when I found it is no longer on Netflix   Fortunately I have the first two seasons on blu-ray, so that'll keep me going until I get the rest.

It prompted me to look up what the cast members are doing these days, and I noticed Anna Torv is in a new Netflix series coming this year:  Mindhunter (TV series) - Wikipedia


----------

