# Notre Dame Fire



## nixie (Apr 15, 2019)

Redirect Notice
		

Wasn't sure where to post this, hopefully the damage will be repairable.


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## Danny McG (Apr 15, 2019)

I had a 'hunch' somebody would post about this.


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## BAYLOR (Apr 15, 2019)

Ive been watching the news,  It's really not good at all.


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## Alex The G and T (Apr 15, 2019)

Holy Smokes!

Reading down the linked article, I'm dismayed at its state of disrepair.  You'd think that such an iconic monument would be better kept.


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## Ian Fortytwo (Apr 15, 2019)

Visited this cathedral thirty years ago. For one I wasn't very impressed by it, however this fire could be quite damaging, hope it will be repairable.


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## EJDeBrun (Apr 15, 2019)

The fire is devastating. Initial reports say that they've already lost all the stained glass and they are expecting to lose all the wooden supports if they're not already gone. Given how bad the fire is, experts doubt there will be much left afterwards except for the bare stones with all the details melted off. The only positives are the apostle statues that had been removed for renovation a week ago. They have also managed to save all the art and the treasures including the Crown of Thorns.

The Cathedral took 200 years to build and has been around for 800 years. While we have modern means to help with the reparations, it's very likely the work to bring it back will take decades. And it also won't replace a lot of the most iconic pieces, including the Rose Window and the Gargoyle.

Old buildings are notoriously difficult to work with and they suspect it's the renovations themselves that caused the fire in the first place.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Apr 15, 2019)

I think they don't want to say anything that would give birth to dangerous conspiracy theories—and it is most likely that some accident related to the construction did start the blaze—but I imagine at this point they really don't have any idea how it happened.


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## Foxbat (Apr 16, 2019)

I love the great cathederals and mosques of the world and this is a tragedy beyond words.


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## thaddeus6th (Apr 16, 2019)

Whilst severe, the damage is less than was feared at times yesterday. That's good, at least.

Edited extra bit: some of the pictures looked horrendous last night.


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## Foxbat (Apr 16, 2019)

Apparently the spire was added in the 19th century so at least it's probably going to go back to its original state when restored (unless they rebuild the spire). Never been to Notre Dame but went to Chartre and Le Mans cathedral. I love flying buttresses.


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## picklematrix (Apr 16, 2019)

Alex The G and T said:


> Holy Smokes!
> 
> Reading down the linked article, I'm dismayed at its state of disrepair.  You'd think that such an iconic monument would be better kept.


Perhaps they are loathe to do too much to it, since maintaining it might involve replacing parts of the brickwork etc.


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## EJDeBrun (Apr 16, 2019)

I'm not religious but I'm very grateful the cathedral survived in a much better state than originally feared. It will still take a long time before it's completely restored, but at least it will be restored.

There was also a fire to the Al-Aqsa Mosque yesterday, but the fire was much smaller and it was contained a lot sooner than the Notre Dame fire. Still, it's been a tough week for holy sites.


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## Overread (Apr 16, 2019)

The problem with upkeep on big old buildings can be that because they are old they get listed and that means they get protected. This can mean that a simple repair becomes complicated because you're limited on what methods and materials you can work with; which might further greatly limit on who you can hire to do the work (who might also have other jobs lined up). 

In addition more abnormal types of work can also cost more so it puts the cost for repair up. Plus old things tend to have a habit of all getting old at the same time so everything tends to break at around the same time which, yeah, means a bigger bill. This can be compounded if you've already a load of repairs put on hold because of their cost. And yes this can mean even famous structures end up falling more and more into dilapidation with increased running and upkeep costs that help prevent savings building up to pay for major repairs. 

That said considering how iconic it is both as a religious, historical and national icon I'm surprised they didn't have the resources. 


The silver lining to the fire might actually be that since so much of the original is lost they might relax some of the restrictions and thus rebuild with a view to more modern materials, methods and the future. So whilst its a disaster today it might actually result in it being in better upkeep tomorrow. 



As for what might have caused it there's loads of potential. Heck we live in a very old house and the old wood becomes hard as iron so if you want to, say, drill into it you've got to lubricate the drill soap/candle wax) and drill in short bursts to let the drill cool off and not overheat the bit. This could be as simple as someone drilling and building up enough friction and heat to light the old timber. Once lit (esp if undetected) and it got going woosh - all that old fabric, wood and such is ripe for burning.


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## thaddeus6th (Apr 17, 2019)

Overread, with York Minster the scaffolding is always up and it just revolves around the Minster, constantly allowing masons and carpenters to keep everything ship shape.

Kind of ironic that now's a great time to be a medieval-style mason or carpenter. Even 'authentic' leather shoes have a waiting list of a year or two (so says Lindybeige) because there's such demand.


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## Cathbad (Apr 17, 2019)

France's President says they'll rebuild it, even more beautiful, within 5 years.  Corporate donations are already coming in.


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## Overread (Apr 17, 2019)

Company donations followed by new fine works of art er advertisement 


The only part of it that I question is the 5 years bit, they can hardly have even got a full assessment of the damage let alone made choices on how to rebuild nor the final estimated costs, resources, builders etc.... So I figure ANY time estimation is just a pie in the sky estimation right now. I wouldn't be surprised to see it run way over that or even "never finish" as such but get the bulk of the core work done.


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## Cathbad (Apr 17, 2019)

Overread said:


> Company donations followed by new fine works of art er advertisement
> 
> 
> The only part of it that I question is the 5 years bit, they can hardly have even got a full assessment of the damage let alone made choices on how to rebuild nor the final estimated costs, resources, builders etc.... So I figure ANY time estimation is just a pie in the sky estimation right now. I wouldn't be surprised to see it run way over that or even "never finish" as such but get the bulk of the core work done.


Yeah, five years soundsa bit overly hopeful.  Still, it could be done - but would probably double the cost.


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## Parson (Apr 18, 2019)

Five years is definitely  hopeful. But the word tonight is that they have 1 BILLION! dollars pledged to restore it. That is amazing and should allow almost any kind of renovation they want to accomplish. I've also heard that they have already put out a "contest?" for the best design for the new spire.


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## farntfar (Apr 18, 2019)

Renovation is a good word, Parson.

Given the competition, it won't be a restoration so much as a reboot. :-(

I just hope they don't make it twinkle like the Tour Eiffel.


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## Danny McG (Apr 18, 2019)

farntfar said:


> I just hope they don't make it twinkle like the Tour Eiffel



Blackpool does the twinkling better anyways


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## mosaix (Apr 18, 2019)

Cathbad said:


> Yeah, five years soundsa bit overly hopeful.  Still, it could be done - but would probably double the cost.



Decade(s) more like.


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## Allegra (Apr 18, 2019)

However long it's going to take, I bet Notre Dame will be rebuilt at the soonest as they can with all the funds and experts pouring in, though it'll never be the same, but that's how the history goes, it rewrites. Thank goodness it wasn't burnt to the ground like some people predicted prematurely, even if that happened, it probably would still get up again stone by stone, I guess. 

It is too devastating to see from above:









						Aerial photos show scale of Notre Dame damage | CNN
					

A gutted roof, blackened stone and a gaping hole where the spire once stood.




					edition.cnn.com


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## Vladd67 (Apr 18, 2019)

New York police arrest man with petrol in St Patrick's Cathedral
					

Police arrest a man carrying petrol and lighters who entered St Patrick's Cathedral in New York.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Danny McG (Apr 18, 2019)




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## tinkerdan (Apr 18, 2019)

5 years to repair...
Gearing up for the Olympics in 2024.


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## Parson (Apr 18, 2019)

Parson bites tongue. --- No theology on this site --- He will not comment.


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## sknox (Apr 19, 2019)

This fire has burned the heart of Paris, which is the heart of France. A little sympathy would not go amiss. Snide is just too easy.


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## Brian G Turner (Apr 19, 2019)

*cough* Let's keep this thread focused on discussions of Notre Dame and not wider questions of religion.


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## Danny McG (Apr 19, 2019)

I wasn't trying for a theological debate, I thought the two memes were humorous together.

And no, I wasn't being snide either, someone I know was laughing about the fire (while it was still blazing and we thought it might totally collapse!) on social media and I got on the phone at him right away


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## Brian G Turner (Apr 19, 2019)

I was referring to discussion that started to follow on from that, so figured best to nip it in the bud.


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## Cathbad (Apr 19, 2019)

Bud's always getting nipped!!


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## Danny McG (Apr 19, 2019)

Cathbad said:


> Bud's always getting nipped!!


The last time somebody nipped my bud it brought tears to my eyes


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## nixie (Apr 19, 2019)

Think we've had enough of nipping and buds, let's get back on topic.


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## Boneman (Apr 19, 2019)

Ignoring the fact that the melting point of gold is 1,064 degrees C, and wood burns at about 600 degrees C when fanned, I visited a National Trust building  (Uppark House) that had caught fire while renovations were taking place - it took  4 years to sort the insurance, but yes, the builders were responsible, and their insurance eventually paid up. Same here, surely? But the outcome of the restoration of the NT property was the re-discovering of old skills that were necessary to restore the building to its original state, which had disappeared two hundred years ago. The specialist artisans are now in demand around the world. There's a fabulous display before you enter the restored building, that shows how it was done. Almost worth the burning down, just to see how it was done...


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## WaylanderToo (Apr 19, 2019)

with regard to the whole "5 years" thing - I suspect that that's a political issue to help macron out of a hole at the moment. The reality is that if they are going to use traditional methods (as they have say they want to) that'll be unachievable


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## Allegra (Apr 20, 2019)

Notre Dame seems to have been always under repairs. Over the years I've been to Paris quite a few times, I don't remember once the great cathedral without scaffolding somewhere on the building. A few years ago they started a 20-year restoration project, now with most of the roof, wood structures and the spire gone, 5 years does sound ambitious. In the news there is a serious shortage on skilled carpenters in France. But this time the renovation will not be like any other times, they'll get all the help worldwide. Who knows, maybe the new spire will be up by 2024 Olympics.



dannymcg said:


> And no, I wasn't being snide either, someone I know was laughing about the fire (while it was still blazing and we thought it might totally collapse!) on social media and I got on the phone at him right away



I don't know what you told him on the phone but I know what I would tell him!


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## farntfar (Apr 20, 2019)

WaylanderToo said:


> with regard to the whole "5 years" thing -  I suspect that that's a political issue to help macron out of a hole at the moment.



Well it ain't working.
It's just highlighting the differences between what Paris can expect, and what the rest of the country can't.
("Our church has spent 3 years raising 1000€, which is nowhere near enough to save the belltower. NDdP gets millions in the first week from bigwig corporations who'll claim it back on the tax." sort of thing.)


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## Pyan (Apr 20, 2019)

Nice to see that the three beehives and their  200,000 inhabitants that are on the sacristy roof survived the fire...

Bees living on Notre-Dame cathedral roof survive blaze


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## Allegra (Apr 21, 2019)

So most of the precious things have survived: the Rose windows, sculptures, relics, the great organ... Now the bees, wonderful news! The fallen spire was only of 19th century's, wonder what are the differences between it and the original 13th century's, and which version will be rebuilt:









						Rebuilding Notre-Dame: Which era's vision of the cathedral will prevail? - France 24
					






					www.france24.com


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## Parson (Apr 22, 2019)

farntfar said:


> ("Our church has spent 3 years raising 1000€, which is nowhere near enough to save the belltower. NDdP gets millions in the first week from bigwig corporations who'll claim it back on the tax." sort of thing.)



Sigh! This is sad.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Apr 22, 2019)

Notre Dame gets all that money because it is a tourist attraction, one of the reasons why people visit Paris, and Parisian businesses will reap the benefits when it is restored, so of course they are willing to invest in the restoration.  That makes them look good, probably makes them feel good (because they probably appreciate the beauty and history of the cathedral as much as anyone), and will pay off in the long run.

Local businesses, unfortunately, don't make money by saving the bell-towers on small churches.


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## Danny McG (Apr 22, 2019)

Allegedly it was set off by a crumpled sheet of greaseproof paper that had been used to wrap sandwiches.

The lunchpack of Notre Dame.


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## Allegra (Apr 28, 2019)

Can Notre-Dame rise from the ashes with 3D printing?
					

French President Emmanuel Macron has pledged to rebuild Notre-Dame in just five years. This timeframe would be very difficult to achieve using traditional construction methods but one company believes…




					www.france24.com
				




3D printing the spire of Notre Dame? That would be a signature of 21 century. If it can do some parts better than human hands can, why not? Unfortunately the destroyed many sculptures that were made by medieval artists, carpenters and stonemasons are forever lost. However you remake them.



Teresa Edgerton said:


> Notre Dame gets all that money because it is a tourist attraction, one of the reasons why people visit Paris, and Parisian businesses will reap the benefits when it is restored, so of course they are willing to invest in the restoration.  That makes them look good, probably makes them feel good (because they probably appreciate the beauty and history of the cathedral as much as anyone), and will pay off in the long run.
> 
> Local businesses, unfortunately, don't make money by saving the bell-towers on small churches.



I think all the UNESCO heritage sites are not just tourist attractions. Especially Notre Dame, for us tourists it is a major Paris attraction but for France, a secular state since 1905,  it is an important national symbol (like the Status of Liberty in NY - the French are pretty good at making symbolic stuff), way beyond religion, art, tourism... Many important things happened in there through out its long history.


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## Allegra (Jul 14, 2020)

Notre Dame cathedral: Spire to be rebuilt exactly as it was
					

The French President had initially suggested a modern architectural touch could be added to the edifice but ruled that the spire's reconstruction should be faithful to the 19th century design.




					www.euronews.com
				




That's the only sensible and respectful solution I think. All those fancy silly ideas were just a waste of time.


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## CupofJoe (Jul 14, 2020)

I'd have liked something new and remarkable to reflect the events.
But a swimming pool or car park doesn't sound like the best alternatives around....
If they want it fast, then as-was is probably the way to go.


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## Overread (Jul 14, 2020)

It's also likely the one choice they can get which will have the least amount of gripes/pushback. Though I'm sure that rebuilding it might result in them changing some structural elements here and there.


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## Foxbat (Jul 14, 2020)

Hopefully they can install some fire protection...but a word of warning...remember the Glasgow School of Art? It was partially destroyed by fire and then suffered another fire during restoration. Restoration work of this type is when an old building is most susceptible to fire. Let’s keep everything crossed that rebuilding goes without incident.


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## tegeus-Cromis (Jul 14, 2020)

Yes, they have to be totally respectful of a nineteenth-century folly that pretended to be a restoration of a medieval cathedral. Because adding something contemporary would be just so out of keeping with the building's authenticity.


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## Allegra (Jul 14, 2020)

A brief scientific introduction:






Tremendous complex, painstaking task:


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## Foxbat (Jul 15, 2020)

I visited the Hermitage Museum in St. Petersburg many years ago (circa 1998) and they'd just finished restoring the Rembrandt that had been attacked with a vial of sulphuric acid and a knife in 1985. There was a display showing photos of all the different techniques used. It was a marvelous job that left me with a great appreciation for the painstaking work that these people do. If the French counterparts are as good, Notre Dame is in safe hands.


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