# General Apology



## aurelio (Nov 16, 2005)

Hello All,

I, Brian requested I write a general apology.

In a PRIVATE note to another writer I referred to Chronicles as a "kinda snooty" forum compared with other writer forums I frequent, or something of that nature (since we're airing the laundry, my exact words were, "...full of snoots"). My words were then publicly quoted, and the you-know-what hit the fan.

The dictionary defines snoot as, "to treat haughtily."

I mentioned no names, and this group is a large one, so it was pretty non-specific indictment, but I don't really like name calling. It's childish and ugly. So I plead guilty as charged, and sincerely apologize.

I, Brian and his inner clique that run Chronicles can do as they please, of course, that is their privilege, but in my own defense, I feel the name calling here is a two-way street and apologies should be reciprocal. I chose to self-published my novel, EVE, and because of that decision, ever since I joined the forum here, I've been accused of being, let's see... things like ignorant, lazy, a writer who couldn't get otherwise published, sloppy... the list goes on. I think most of you saw the threads. I was also initially "welcomed" by being accused of spamming my site by posting it here, as many others have been.

Did any of the inner clique bother to read EVE? Highly doubtful. I've bought and read several books by fellow writers here at Chronicles in the past year, (without reciprocation, by the way - even when it was promised - Mark and Marianne, take note!) and gave them personal comments, public reviews, and encouragement. On the receiving end, however, I have not felt welcomed by the inner clique. The privileged few, like Mark and Kelpie, are allowed to chat up their books to no end, with their own mini-forums as well, while others less connected to the inner clique get scolded and accused of "advertizing" ever time they dare mention their own work or site.

This is getting long so I'll stop. I've made my point.

I, Brian, If you'd like me to leave Chronicles, I'll go, but it would be unfair to banish me for being openly critical of this forum's modus operandi. I have made some wonderful friends here. Instead of killing the messenger, why not see if there are ways to honestly readdress my criticisms and make Chronicles more welcoming to ALL of its writers? 

Cheers,

Aurelio O'Brien
http://www.evethenovel.com


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## Foxbat (Nov 16, 2005)

I can assure you aurelio, that there is no 'inner clique' here (and I would not be a part of it if there were) There are a group of people who try and retain a semblence of order. We do not always agree and it is certainly not a mutual back-slapping exercise, but we try and follow certain policies for the good of all (not just the writers among us).

I have taken part in debates with you  in the past over the merits or faults of certain forms of publishing and have never used any of the derogatory terms that you indicate. I don't believe anybody else has either. 

I'm sure you know that it is very easy to criticise someone else's work(whether it be moderating or writing). Much easier than actually doing the job yourself.


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## aurelio (Nov 16, 2005)

Most of the objectional comments I cite were inferred, as in, "People who self-publish are..."  My "snoots" comment was inferred too, as well as being originally a private aside.  It doesn't excuse the slights in either instance, and I apologize again for mine.  

I certainly don't remember ever having any problems with your comments or posts, Foxbat.  It is good of you to respond to this post and I'll take your perspective to heart.


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## Winters_Sorrow (Nov 16, 2005)

Well, obviously you feel hard done by. 
Personally, I haven't read your work - however don't take this personally, as I very rarely visit the Aspiring Writers or Critiques section of the forum. 

You could successfully argue that these areas are the very reason this forum exists in the first place. However, the reason I rarely visit it, or make insightful critiques of people's work is that I am no writer myself and do not feel confident that I will be able to make any remarks constructive enough to be of use to the author. Hopefully this will change over time as I grow confident enough to participate in that part of the forum too, although author's responses to comments have an impact too! 

I was a bit disappointed that you singled out two members of the forum by name for criticism though, after initially saying that it was a non-specific indictment. Whether you meant it to or not, this now has the appearance of a personal attack.


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## lazygun (Nov 16, 2005)

..'Mind bringing this Public flogging to an end?....


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## aurelio (Nov 17, 2005)

I meant no disrespect to either Kelpie or Mark personally - more power to them!  I have had fruitful and interesting conversations here with both of them.  I  stated my point clumsily.  I see now how my previous post can be misread as a slam.  (Sorry Mark and Kelpie - my bad.)   It's hard to make my point without specific examples, but it wasn't meant as a slam at either of them personally, or their work, or the promotion of their books, or them having forums - that's all fine with me.  I was merely using them as examples of how this site can give the impression of favoritism or exclusivity when newly joined member's site links are removed and they are scolded for what gets labeled "self-promotion." 

Perhaps everyone else is okay with that and I'm just being too sensitive to it?  The links policy is there in the site rules, yes, and people should follow the rules, yes, but maybe the rules need a second look?

I think the inclusion of personal site links, especially in the intros thread,  are a quick, easy way to find out about new members.

Anyway, this began as an apology for my initial rudeness, with a request for apologies all around.  Before I dig myself in any deeper, I'll sign off.


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## Rane Longfox (Nov 17, 2005)

I will admit to not having read EVE, but for the same reason I have not read a lot of books - time and concentration-span limitiations. Also, I have found it hard to get hold of in the UK, because I don't buy books online, and as, I am hugely embarrased to admit, I did actually forgot your name when going into the bookstore to enquire after it, and since then it had slipped from my mind.

That aside, however, there _is_ a space on everyone's member profile for that member's homepage, and, as far as I know, there is no problem with posting any book links in there, and, indeed, telling people that the link is there, though I'm just guessing, so a mod may wish to correct me on that point.
I know that, on a smaller forum, where I _am_ a moderator, we do recieve complaints when an author joins and with their first post advertises their book/s. The natural reaction to this is often an accusation of a member "clique", but this is far from the truth. The simple truth is simply that until a member has been around for a while, and got themselves known, there is no way to tell if their intentions are really to join the community or to just advertise their book. Many admins will therefore choose caution, and not allow themselves to be taken advantage of by such adverts.

No one is naive enough to think that everyone will either like or agree with them on everything, especially on an internet forum, where it is easier to say exactly what you think due to the impersonal nature of the discussions. This does mean, however, a little tact should be applied when posting on a forum regarding generalisations about it's members, so maybe your friend needs to use a little more of it. A lot of people put a lot of time and effort into trying to make the forum a success, but, as in everything in life, no one's gonna get it perfect.

Personally, I have huge respect for anyone who self-publishes, the risk must by huge!


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## FelineEyes (Nov 17, 2005)

Rane Longfox said:
			
		

> Personally, I have huge respect for anyone who self-publishes, the risk must by huge!


 
As someone who is too chicken to anything with her work at all, I admire anyone who is willing to take matters into there own hands (no disrespect to those who have been published in some form other than self).  If you want something done right, or at least the way you think best, do it yourself.

I realise that a lot of "attitudes" crop up on this forum, but if they offend, I don't imagine it's intentional.  We do more than a healthy share of "good natured banter" and I at least feel that there is the potential for things can get out of hand.  Sometimes "sarcastic" can come off as "snooty" if people aren't careful and it's hard to get a sarcastic tone over the internet.  Even with the smilies.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Nov 17, 2005)

I'm temporarily locking this. The people who need to respond are mainly Site Staff, and can unlock and respond at any point. I'm keeping it in the public section of the site for now, though. This is partly to prevent the thread from being overrun by tangential chatter!


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## Brian G Turner (Nov 17, 2005)

Okay, point made, and thanks for the apology Aurelio.

I think as a point it's worth saying that if criticism is made of self-publishing, it isn't being made specifically at *any* specific writer - they are general points at an industry that is open to criticism, but you seem to have taken these to heart as applying specifically to yourself - which I don't believe has ever been the intention.

As for Kelpie and Mark promoting their work - sure, and I'm going to be making a very overt point of promoting their work across the site very soon - although we discourage self-promotion from new members, for those who make the effort to get involved with the community, I like to see the community give back. That applies to everybody here.

At the end of the day, chronicles is a *community* - and I have nothing against your being a part of that Aurelio. I believe you have constructively added to it, and hopefully you have taken something positive from it. Believe me, others and myself do quite appreciate the challenges that serious self-published writers face, in trying to gain wider recognition for their talents.

Anyway, I'll leave this thread as is and allow us all to move on from this - and thank you again for being bold enough to make your apology public, Aurelio.


EDIT: Just to add, unfortunately I haven't read any writer's work here - I believe I've only read 5 fiction books this year, and that were read on the basis of relating directly to my own writing in some way - but once time allows, you can be assured I will do so.


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