# Spirit Synonymous with Will?



## M. Blaekr (Mar 13, 2010)

(This is not asking if Free Will exists)
So I hit a question while coming up with a new aspect of my world. I wondered, "Could someone with a powerful spirit be a coward?" It didn't seem to fit, but I'm not completely sure on that matter.

A coward (as opposed to a person who merely runs away because he is not willing to face indomitable odds), in my definition, has a malleable will that is bent when facing odds that he could conquer but is afraid to.
In other words, his will is easily broken. He runs; he does not fight, ever.

So if someone without the will to stand up for himself (or, as I call it, the will to fight) is faced with the decision to run or to fight, he will run. This can include a political problem, where the person in question has the choice to oppose a movement that is damaging the people of the government or not to and maintain their lifestyle.

It is obvious, to me at least, that this politician has no will as he would rather sit in the shadows rather than fight for what he thinks is right. He is letting his life be controlled by luxury.

What does this mean to his spirit? Does a weak will suggest that one also has a weak spirit? Is will connected to spirit, or is it merely a correlation?

(If I am ambiguous or vague on anything let me know)


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## Ursa major (Mar 13, 2010)

M. Blaekr said:


> (This is not asking if Free Will exists)


Good call. 



M. Blaekr said:


> So I hit a question while coming up with a new aspect of my world. I wondered, "Could someone with a powerful spirit be a coward?" It didn't seem to fit, but I'm not completely sure on that matter.
> 
> A coward (as opposed to a person who merely runs away because he is not willing to face indomitable odds), in my definition, has a malleable will that is bent when facing odds that he could conquer but is afraid to.
> In other words, his will is easily broken. He runs; he does not fight, ever.
> ...


I think that if you were writing one of those black-and-white-and-no-shades-of-grey stories, then you would be right that this man has a weak will, because that's what that type of story assumes/requires. It is a given, though, and not necessarily representative of the complexities of reality.

The politician you're describing has made a choice between two things he wants: the people** not to be damaged and his standard of living. Put like that, and in a stark moral environment, yes, he's weak willed. But are things as straight-forward as that? Can they really be boiled down to this?

It is hard to say more, because we do not know the circumstances, the history, the other choices he's made. But I do have a problem. If this politician is in a position to make a difference, how did he get there? Has he always been a pawn? Was he more morally courageous in the past, but when something changed in his life, did he change too? Has he become weary with the struggle? Has he been beaten down or was he always, at heart, someone who put his own position above that of those for whom he's responsible? The answers to these questions - and many others like them - will allow the reader to make up their own mind as the man's strength of spirit. 


That's the handwaving over. Now to the storytelling. Are you going to use 1st person narration or close 3rd person? If so, is there more than one POV character? I ask, because if there are, you will have to answer your own question a number of times.

Let us suppose that this politician (I'll call him X) is one of the POV characters; let us add another three POV characters, one of them close to him (Y), another who sees him a lot (Z), one (W) who knows only what is said in the media, whatever that might be in your world. They will all have their views. X might be the only one of them who thinks X lacks strength of will. He may agonise about it. He may, if he's not 2-dimensional or less, provide justifications for his decisions. Y may also see X's past nobility and believe that he's "done his bit". Z may see one in a host of amoral politicians of which little may be expected. W may only see X through the prism of a supportive press (or one that benefits from the status quo).

As events unfold, the views of these POV characters may change, even swap. perhaps none of them will put the questions as starkly as you have. 



** - I assume you meant, by "the people of the government", the people of the land ruled by that government rather than officials, ministers and adminstrators.


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## Teresa Edgerton (Mar 13, 2010)

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here, and why this thread was started in Science/Nature.  I see that your questions came up in response to something you were writing about, but is this meant to be about characterization, or is it about human psychology?  Perhaps it is meant to be another philosophical debate?

Knowing exactly what kind of answers you are looking for would help me to decide whether this thread stays here, or whether I or another moderator should be moving it somewhere else.


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## M. Blaekr (Mar 13, 2010)

> Put like that, and in a stark moral environment, yes, he's weak willed.  But are things as straight-forward as that? Can they really be boiled  down to this?



No, typically not. Your points do make a lot of sense, though, but I really don't think it's quite as difficult as it may seem, either.

Everything sprouts from one's motive. The question is: Do they cater to their personal interests or choose to fulfill their duty? While most like to think "there is more to it," I really don't think so. Sure, there are numerous factors that influence decision, but ultimately, people will give more preference to one or the other.

Perhaps the politician I described was a major puppet or a sheep of the masses so they could get to where they were. But if they had the change to strike down a movement that, for some reason, he just knows that it's wrong and his sense of duty to protect the population kicks in, will he have the will to stand up to it or will he stay seated and avoid risking his current position?

Anyone can choose to stand up to what they think is wrong. The problem is that, most often, people don't.




> why this thread was started in Science/Nature



Because I don't see a Philosophy section. In a place like this why isn't there one!? 



> I see that your questions came up in response to something you were  writing about



I can't come up with philosophical questions while working on personal matters? :O My story is very philosophical and I tend to come up with a lot of epiphanies while working in what I perceive of the world.



> Knowing exactly what kind of answers you are looking for would help me  to decide whether this thread stays here, or whether I or another  moderator should be moving it somewhere else.



I wasn't looking for character specific or even story specific answers. I was asking about the synonymity of Will and Spirit, aspects of the living being (Sheesh).


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Pardon my sarcasm and ass-hattery


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## Ursa major (Mar 13, 2010)

I must admit, I didn't take any notice of where this thread was put and so assumed - as the OP was dealing with a fictional situation in a so-far unpublished (and almost certainly unfinished) work - that the thread was somewhere in Aspiring Writers.


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## HareBrain (Mar 13, 2010)

The answer to the question "is spirit synonymous with will?" has to be "if you want it to be". Both of them are such vague terms that it depends how you define them, which varies from person to person. I'd say you're unlikely to get someone with a strong will who hasn't a strong spirit (as they're usually defined) but you could easily have someone who's strongly spirited but who does not (seem to) have a strong will, because they might not know what they want, or because what they want changes so often.

And someone who backs down from a confrontation, even though badly provoked, might seem to be a coward, but might actually have a strong will to avoid trouble, for whatever reason.

(BTW I'd like a philosophy section too, but I can see why there isn't one. Any section that can include religion would give the mods a serious headache.)


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## M. Blaekr (Mar 13, 2010)

> And someone who backs down from a confrontation, even though badly  provoked, might seem to be a coward, but might actually have a strong  will to avoid trouble, for whatever reason.



I like the way you put this, it was the main issue I had when drawing up a different concept of mine. It makes sense.



> (BTW I'd like a philosophy section too, but I can see why there isn't  one. Any section that can include religion would give the mods a serious  headache.)



I know what you mean. Still to this day people don't seem to differentiate Philosophy from Theology. Hell, even my college professors don't know the difference. (I hate my school, took a philosophy course only to talk about God for a semester. I want to kill that guy.)

What I think should be done is to make a Philosophy AND a Religion section, and just completely ignore the Religion section because who really gives a damn what those sheep are talking about, anyways?  
(Please don't hurt me! >_<)


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## Teresa Edgerton (Mar 13, 2010)

M. Blaekr said:


> and just completely ignore the Religion section because who really gives a damn what those sheep are talking about, anyways?



One reason why we don't encourage discussion of religion is because it brings out remarks like that one.  (Smirking afterwards to show it is supposed to be a joke doesn't really serve to defuse the situation.)


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## skeptical (Mar 14, 2010)

If you read the books of Larry Niven, you will be familiar with the Pierson's Puppeteers.   This fictional species of alien are formidably intelligent, but total cowards.   They run away from danger, and any brave puppeteer is classified as insane.

However, that does not mean they lacked will.  As Niven described them, they had enormous determination to build themselves a home and way of life that permitted them to live with no threat of danger.

Cowardice is not a single syndrome.   There are many kinds of cowardice, just as there are many kinds of courage.   There are people with the courage to face a lion with nothing more than a long stick in their hands, while being afraid to speak loudly to someone in case they hurt that person's feelings.

I think it is very possible to be what some classify as a coward, while still possessing a very strong will.  It is just expressed in a different arena.


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## M. Blaekr (Mar 19, 2010)

Teresa Edgerton said:


> (Smirking afterwards to show it is supposed to be a joke doesn't really serve to defuse the situation.)



I know. And I knew this before I wrote it. :O

Apologies if I seem cold to the matter, I am in a religious university due to financial reasons and I am not enjoying it but I want that big ol' piece of paper that says I can do stuff in the real world.


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## Peter Graham (Mar 19, 2010)

> I know. And I knew this before I wrote it. :O


 
Don't write it then, old chap. 



> Apologies if I seem cold to the matter, I am in a religious university due to financial reasons and I am not enjoying it but I want that big ol' piece of paper that says I can do stuff in the real world.


 
This isn't our problem. If you need to let off steam about religion, this isn't the place to do it.

But on to your question. I think Skeptical is bang on. There are plenty of ways to show strength of will which do not require one to show physical strength or the willingness to engage in physical conflict. In fact, one of the most strong-willed people I know is a totally committed pacifist. He would avoid a physical confrontation virtually at any cost, but he is no coward. He simply holds very strong views and his will is strong enough to ensure that he practices what he preaches.

So could a coward also be strong willed? I don't see why not. The two things are not mutually exclusive. Look at the character of Withnail in the film _Withnail and I. _He's an absolute coward in certain regards, but is massively strong willed notwithstanding.

What about the chap who has enough will power to stop smoking without any treatment or assistance?

I think the issue here is that cowardice tends to be defined primarily in one context - an aversion to fighting or other forms of direct confrontation. Popular forms of entertainment(including much genre fantasy) always draw a link between physical prowess, bravery in combat and strength of character. I suppose it goes back to fairly ancient notions of manhood. 

But if you were to phrase your question in a slightly different way and ask yourself "can someone who just doesn't like fighting be strong willed", you'd almost certainly say that they could. 

Which, I think, gives you the answer to your question.

Regards,

Peter


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## M. Blaekr (Mar 19, 2010)

Excellent points!

Yes, it makes sense, now. I've been delving into the "warrior's spirit" a bit much with my characters, asking if they do or don't have one. Guess I forgot about the other possibilities of characteristic combinations.

XD Not a good thing, thanks for straightening me out, everyone, and with some new insight!


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## Karn Maeshalanadae (Mar 24, 2010)

Spirit synonymous with will?


I honestly don't think so, and here's why:



On the most basic scientific level, it's been proven that our brains are what control everything about our bodies. The human body is simply a complex computer system, if you'll allow that analogy, and the brain is the hard drive. The chemicals and hormonal and electrical reactions are just like a computer's electrical reactions. Our brains control our movements, our thoughts, our decisions. Will is the result of our brains' computation.


Spirit is something else entirely. I don't think spirit can really be described as anything beyond that of a background playerin our brains' computations. It's a personality trait, something that we do not have so much control over in our lives. Will.....will we do. I believe that our will is the result of....god, where was I going with this....? Will I believe is the result of experience we've had in our lives and is shaped by spirit. Spirit is what holds our heads high and determines how strong our will is. So, I believe, on a layered level, it's spirit, will, decision, in that order. For example, my spirit cannot be broken the way my leg was, and it's due to that strong spirit of mine that I have the will to get better, and my will to get better fueled my decision to make attempts at getting better. Spirit is FUEL for will, just as will is fuel for decision.


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## Moonbat (Mar 24, 2010)

If we take your analogy that the brain is like a hard drive, then consciousness is like an operating system, that would make will, spirit and decision-making programs.

I've always though that Spirit can have two meanings, the spirit that is similar to will, the fighting spirit; the desire to carry on when every inch of you is pleading to stop. Also the soul, the spirit that lingers unseen in the body and technically doesn't really exist (or cannot be proven to exist), the undying spirit that lives on when our bodies turn to dust.


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## Karn Maeshalanadae (Mar 25, 2010)

The kind of spirit that is being mentioned here, Moonbat, I believe is the "feuling" spirit, the fighting spirit that feuls our will. Our will to survive, our will to move on forward even against impossible odds.

The soul is another issue entirely and one so religious I don't think it should be brought up here......


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## Interference (Mar 25, 2010)

People can be described as "spirited" which might mean wilful and rash.  A spirited person might dive headlong into a situation without weighing up the consequences, and as such will power or a decision-making process may not be involved at all.  Confronted with something terrifying, even a spirited person might quail.  Is that cowardice?  Is self preservation ever cowardice? Well, yes, if it puts others in jeopardy or places the self above the higher good.


Personally I tend to hide my philosophy stuff in my blog, but one or two people usually manage to track it down there and it has proved helpful, enlightening and interesting.


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## fruit (Aug 20, 2010)

That's the handwaving over. Now to the storytelling. Are you going to  use 1st person narration or close 3rd person? If so, is there more than  one POV character? I ask, because if there are, you will have to answer  your own question a number of times.


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