# I'm finally published...



## mercs

After ten years of working my way up through short stories, online novels, even comic book scripts and many failed manuscripts, I finally pushed ahead with my MG Fantasy novel Lyrian...

After some advise through absolutewrite and through some members on here, I finally put it in print with lulu. I now have several copies of my novel sitting in front of me that I will be giving to family and friends over the next month...

I can't wait to start spreading the word, and I know it's not published in its literal terms, but anyone who has been on lulu will see that a lot of their most popular authors do get contracts if they have the sales figures to match...

I'm setting myself a sales target of 5000 copies for this debut novel and I can't wait to start getting out there and showing my work. Who knows who might one day pick up a copy and read it!

But for now I'm ecstatic to have a copy in front of me and to know that in a few more weeks it will be there on my computer screen via amazon!

Start of a new adventure!!!


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## DocFlamingo

Outstanding!


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## chopper

Nice work!

I don't want to put dampeners on it, but 5000 is a massive sales target and will involve a heck of a lot of time & effort (& money) on your part.

Have a chat with Scarfy, or Marc Robson - see how they fared with their first projects.

Good luck

S


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## Joey Sixknuckles

Good luck! The hard work is just beginning!


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## mygoditsraining

All the best with your endeavours!  That's a mighty target to set yourself, but keep pushing away at it.

(also, get your family to_ buy _their copies*; if you can get it into a store and *then* get them to buy their copies from that store - even better - cheeky as Hell, I know but stores will take note of numbers sold and you will be able to improve your selling pitch in other areas)


*what else is family for, if not supporting you!


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## Joey Sixknuckles

mygoditsraining said:


> (also, get your family to_ buy _their copies*; if you can get it into a store and *then* get them to buy their copies from that store - even better - cheeky as Hell, I know but stores will take note of numbers sold and you will be able to improve your selling pitch in other areas)


 
And if you're were going to give them free copies anyway - why not give them the money to buy extra copies?  *


*Don't tell anyone though


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## mercs

Cheers guys, I thought no one cared (argh!), but it turns out I managed to wreck the site and needed some help to correct things! the 5000 is a HUGE target and definitely a vast amount to try and achieve...

So far after a few weeks I have shifted the first batch of 20 books (hardly a huge start I know!) and currently the book is going through dispatch to be listed on all the amazons, barnes and noble, waterstones etc etc.

I am blessed in the sense that I have, what can only be described as, a monsterously large family. Two sisters (one married), two brothers (one married with two kids), my missus has a brother (married with one kid), two sisters. Then there's the 20-30 cousins that I am in contact with and the numerous aunts, uncles and other relatives that could be convinced if nagged!

As for them paying, sadly they have to! I gave a few away to close relatives, but I don't have the funds to give all of them a copy! I'll keep everyone up to date as the project moves along, but it just feels good to see my work in print at last!


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## TheEndIsNigh

Tricky business mercs.

Remember the power of word of mouth for a project like this.

It might be more advantageous to give ten or twenty copies out to loved ones who will then be much more inclined to suggest their  family and even their friends should buy copies. Make sure you sign a few for the close relatives and if you're feeling really keen number them. Their is always kudos in owning a signed and numbered first edition novel even if it's someone you've never heard of. They don't know if you're going to make millions in the future but as a punt on a new author some may give it a go.

Oh yes it'd be nice to think they were buying it for the content but lets face it people invest in new artists' work on just that kind of speculation so why not books.

When you've sold the first 5000 then you can be picky about who gets a freebie because by then you will be quite well read and able to choose.

Obviously keep 1-10 for the attic just in case


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## Aoratos

Very nice mate!  Keep us up to date   I'll be checking on amazon


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## mercs

You and me both Aoratos, it's 6-8 week wait to get on amazon.com, and for me with the distribution package about the same with all other sites. Every morning I check hopefully to see if it's there, but nothing yet...

TheEndIsNigh, I have been advised to give away a lot of free copies, it's just the financial restrictions currently. I'm not really in a position to give away more than a dozen a month, and so it has been hard in that sense...

I've also got to give my copy to the british library as requested. I had it already to send etc. and someone contacted me on another site to ask for a signed copy. As it's someone who helped me a lot along the way, I sent them my last copy and now I'm awaiting another batch to come along...

It's going to be a long and bumpy road, and either it will die a fast death or it may continue to tick over and maybe reach my ideal target for the project...


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## Gary Compton

I'm interested to know whether you get a trade price from Lulu to enable you to buy books from them and sell them yourself.

The reason I ask is that I have 5 websites selling kitchens, gifts, football souvenirs and general stuff and I get 250,000 hits per year across all.

I would be happy to put your book (and anyone elses) on all the sites and if anyone buys I will forward the order/payment onto you so you can despatch it direct. You'll need a paypal account.

I'm happy to help as I intend in the next 12 months to publish my own book and sell it through the internet/Ebay/Amazon/etc.

A couple of tips if you can get stock, contact the biggest Ebay sellers of books, give them a margin and offer to despatch directly to their customers. They sell it, and you get it out there.

Do what Scarfy has done and get into the ribs of the local bookstore managers.

I dont think you'll make money this way, however it may lead to bigger and better things. (Mark Robson as an example)

I've got book printing costs down to 67p per book, full colour embossed cover. If you sell 5000 on this one then the next one you'll make money. By the way you need a website. Let me know if you need help!

This time next year you'll be a millionaire!!!


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## Yahzi

mercs said:


> I finally put it in print with lulu.


I hate to rain on your parade, but you are not _published_.

What you are is _printed_. Which, let's face it, is a pretty big accomplishment. Everybody says they want to write, but how many people actually finish an entire novel? You can legitimately call yourself a writer.

You should be proud of what you've accomplished.  But you should also not misrepresent it to others or to yourself. I say this as a fellow _printed _author. It's disingenuous and disrespectful to the people who did manage to break in the old-fashioned way.

Also, I guarantee you will not sell 5,000 copies through lulu. Long before you get to that mark some mainstream publisher will notice and buy the book. Consider two facts: 1) 500 copies of a self-published book is a best seller. 2) Only %10 of traditionally published books earn out their advance. So any self-published book that sells 1,000 copies is going to look mighty tasty to a traditional publisher - and by the time you sell that many books yourself, their distribution net is going to look pretty tasty to you, too.

As for waiting to get on Amazon... I think lulu now puts everything on Amazon automatically, regardless of your distribution package. I went with the free package, didn't even get an ISBN, and my book is available on Amazon.


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## Yahzi

Also - did you enter this in the War of the Words contest? One of the benefits of being _printed _and not _published _is that you can still enter contests like this. 

Check it out, and send them your first 3 chapters. (I would post the link but I guess I can't yet - just google for War of the Words New Rules and Regulations)


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## mercs

Yahzi, I'm not so sure about there still being a stigma. If it is professionally done, then it's hard to distinguish between a self published and published. I could have gone down the traditional route, and yes sure I admit my way is a huge shortcut, but I just wanted to get a book printed/published and work on it. In no way do I mean to try and muscle in on what others have achieved straight out, but for me it is a big jump forward from the short stories/submissions/rejection piles I've been amassing for a decade now...

as for the 5000 mark, that is a huge target as I said. In fact very few on lulu have ever reached that target -something like 200 books- and so I'm aware of the implications if that does happen. It's something to aim for -the dream scenario!

As for lulu, they do the absolute bare minimum if you don't get a distribution package. They list it on amazon.com's database, but it's permanently out of stock etc. I bought the basic package which means it's listed on 100s of sites and is at least out there and available...

Gary, I think it is possible to get a trade price, plus of course I can buy the book for nearly half the price myself. I do have a website that I'm currently constructing for my work and sure I'd love to hear what you are doing as of course getting the work scene is more important than making money at this stage -I'm resigned to making none on this project!


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## TheEndIsNigh

Yes, yes  I certainly understand these sentiments.

If you have something that you feel needs doing then do it know I say.

After all.... and it soon will be


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## Yahzi

mercs said:


> Yahzi, I'm not so sure about there still being a stigma. If it is professionally done, then it's hard to distinguish between a self published and published.


It's not a stigma. Plenty of self-published books are better than plenty of actually published books.

But it is a different process. No independent editor has selected your work for publication. Despite the deficiencies of independent editors and their often random picks, it's still a hurdle you haven't crossed.

I'm always careful to tell people that I'm printed, not published.



> my way is a huge shortcut,


No, it isn't. Your way is a path to a completely different destination.

That's my point about misrepresenting yourself to others _and yourself_.

The destination you've reached is a worthy one. It might even be the wave of the future. But it's not the same one you set out to reach 10 years ago.



> They list it on amazon.com's database, but it's permanently out of stock etc.


My Amazon page says my book is in stock, from LULUPRESS, which has a 94% positive rating.

I tried to search for your book on Amazon, but "Lyrian" gave me so many hits I couldn't find yours.


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## Gary Compton

Yahzi said:


> I hate to rain on your parade, but you are not _published_.


 
Absolute load of rubbish. Off course you're published! The difference is you are the publisher and the author at the same time.

Look at Mark Robson on this forum. He sought out a printing company, put together the book including the cover art work. He printed, marketed and distributed his series and sold...wait for it! 50,000 books. He was snapped up by an agent and the rest is history (Check out his forum on this site)

As we are coninually told, publishing is subjective. Another man's passion is someone else's poison. You might not get an agent because you've not been lucky enough to find one who enjoyed your work enough. 

It's not to say it isnt great and very readable. 

Look at all the rubbish on the bookshelves, what's the story there. They say it has to be wonderful, better that 100% but there are still 100's of books that are crap - They are trying to brainwash us into beliving they are right. When in reality no one is - there is no exact template.

I'd say go for it 5000 is nothing. If I was a published author and only sold 3000-5000, I'd be questioning the commitment of the people behind the book.

In a few years the traditional publisher will be dead and the new proactive, self motivated, driven author who publish their own work will fill the bookshelves.

GO FOR IT. DONT BE PUT OFF!!


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## mercs

Blimey Gary, one step at a time lol! As I said I tried a few times with agents and I was told that my writing was good, they enjoyed my style and script, but something didn't click etc. I just wanted a copy to give to my friends and family. I wish I could show you the phone call I got today from my niece in America when her copy arrived, that's worth more than a publishing contract to me!

5000 is the dream number as it opens a few doors. If I see 43 copies, 170 copies, 941 copies etc. then no one cares. It would be the death of the book as why should a publishing house or agent give a second look if the public didn't. 5000 is a number that says there's something here...

And I will have to check up this Mark Robson and ask for some tips, as 50,000 is more than what many publishing houses manage! That's phenomenal!


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## Ursa major

I believe Mark is on holiday (and researching his next book) at the moment, but he has a sub-forum in the Author's forum if you want to check it out.


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## Ian Whates

mercs, many congratulations on the book coming out and I really hope it does well for you.

As a small press publisher myself (www.newconpress.co.uk), I would offer a word of caution about being overly ambitious on the sales side. If you do sell as many as 5,000, that's fabulous, but please set out to achieve this in a series of stages and don't be too disappointed if reality doesn't quite live up to expectation.

I've published books with stories from authors you may have heard of, including Brian Aldiss, Christopher Priest, Stephen Baxter, Alastair Reynolds, Pat Cadigan, Gwyneth Jones, Ken MacLeod etc etc, and I would never dream of printing anything like that many copies or indeed expect to sell that number.

Yes, as mentioned, Mark Robson has sold a fabulous number of his initial series of books, but Mark was aiming at a very specific market, writing YA fantasy novels, and Mark is phenomenal when it comes to selling and promoting, particularly when aided at events by the rest of his family, who work very smoothly as a team. Mark is very much the exception, not the rule. 

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to be a killjoy and dampen your enthusiasm; you take every scrap you have and throw it behind the book... I'd just hate to see you end up being disappointed because you were aiming too high.


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## TheEndIsNigh

Mercs:

So how does this thing work.

You say the first twenty copies or so have gone. What do you have to do to get more - I know it's going to involve cash but from an information point of view how does lulu (or whoever it was) set about printing/publishing your book.


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## Yahzi

TheEndIsNigh said:


> how does lulu (or whoever it was) set about printing/publishing your book.


Well, that's the cool part.

Print-on-demand means they print a copy _when you order it._ They have a big machine that prints books the way you think of printing copies - push a button, and out one comes. The "print run" is perilously close to death; someday they'll print all books this way. You'll walk into a bookstore, select a book from their sample stock, and they'll print one for you on the spot.

Still need to reduce the price a factor of 4 or so, but considering how much the price for a single print has already dropped, that's not much.


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## ctg

Yahzi said:


> The "print run" is perilously close to death; someday they'll print all books this way. You'll walk into a bookstore, select a book from their sample stock, and they'll print one for you on the spot.



 LOL, what are you talking? 'Print run' is not a dead subject. Jeesus, get grips man. A few examples from top of my head involving a word 'print run' and traditional publisher together. 

Prog rock is a magazine that started few months go. Knowing that the country is in a recession and the internet is booming, they did a 30 000 copy run and sold out the first issue. £7.99 a pop and you can count they got £239 700 in one month, before splitting it. On what's funny, that first issue now selling on ebay for fifty quid.  

Another example, Kasper Kent's - Twelve. It's a debut novel, and as above, the keyword is debut. What he has done is an examplary work that has already made three 'print runs'. How many copies he has sold? I don't know, but I bet quite a lot. Probably far more than five thousand.   

So whatever you've been smoking, it's been bad gear. And thinking they will make a print in the shop is you dreaming. There's not going to be a room for machines like that.


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## Joey Sixknuckles

ctg said:


> And thinking they will make a print in the shop is you dreaming. There's not going to be a room for machines like that.


 
There is already a machine like that, it's just been launched, it's pretty expensive at the moment, and only certain publishers have licensed for it - but the price will come down, and more publishers and booksellers will sdopt it. Remember even ten years ago who would have thought you could get a brand new pretty good quality home printer/scanner/photocopier for £70? I'm not saying of course that you will be able to get book printers for that little, but they _will_ become affordable for booksellers.


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## ctg

Joey Sixknuckles said:


> There is already a machine like that, it's just been launched, it's pretty expensive at the moment, and only certain publishers have licensed for it - but the price will come down, and more publishers and booksellers will sdopt it. Remember even ten years ago who would have thought you could get a brand new pretty good quality home printer/scanner/photocopier for £70? I'm not saying of course that you will be able to get book printers for that little, but they _will_ become affordable for booksellers.



How fast it is on printing a book and binding the pages together? Can you give a source rather than just saying there's one?


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## J-WO

mercs said:


> After ten years of working my way up through short stories, online novels, even comic book scripts and many failed manuscripts, I finally pushed ahead with my MG Fantasy novel Lyrian...
> 
> 
> Start of a new adventure!!!



Nice one Merc! Go for it, sonny!


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## ktabic

ctg said:


> How fast it is on printing a book and binding the pages together? Can you give a source rather than just saying there's one?


Espresso Book Machine. In stores now. First store I heard about getting it was in Melbourne, but there are 18 sites worldwide now. Couple in London, so will have to go have a play next time I'm down there.


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## Joey Sixknuckles

ktabic said:


> Espresso Book Machine. In stores now. First store I heard about getting it was in Melbourne, but there are 18 sites worldwide now. Couple in London, so will have to go have a play next time I'm down there.


 
That's the one.


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## mygoditsraining

> The trim size of a book is infinitely variable between  8.5” x 11” and 4.5” x 4.5”



Someone needs to smack their copy writer.  Hard.


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## chopper

hmm. ten years ago nobody throught they'd be queueing up to use a damned download machine in a shop...... i ain't gonna rule anything out.

slightly offtopic, i just bound all my finished short stuff into a single volume on lulu for a quick private pressing for Mother Chopper. if you put a professional effort in, you certainly get a professional result. the cover may be slightly pixellated, but that's my fault more than their's.


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## Ursa major

> The EBM will print, bind, and trim a 300-page book in less than four minutes with a high speed printer model.


 


> Routine intervention is needed for such tasks as refilling paper trays and emptying the trim receptacle tray.


 
The poor person interveing routinely might be kept quite busy if there's a run on POD books at a store.


I recall seeing a book production system many years ago (it was at a BBC Micro exhibition, so you're looking at a couple of decades ago) and was impressed by its operation. (For demonstration purposes, a lot of the panles were transparent. Obviously it was somewhat larger** than the EBMv2.0, and the means of delivering the meat of the book must have been different, but no one should be surprised that this sort of thing is possible. (And the EBM's penny-a-page cost doesn't look too bad, considering.)



** - It was very big, but then everything was in those days.


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## Yahzi

ctg said:


> So whatever you've been smoking, it's been bad gear.


Apparently, not so much. 

However, it is unlikely that they'll ever put a print machine in a book store. Electronic paper is going to eventually kill the paper book.


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## TheEndIsNigh

Personally I think that is all wrong Yahzi.

When I buy a book I want to be able to feel its crisp new cover and rustle it's  pages. The smell the weight. There's something about owning a book and gripping it in your hand for the first time.

There's the anticipation as you place it on the table before you, hurriedly casting aside your overcoat in your eagerness to get to the first page. Absorbing the trite details of the prologue (if you're lucky) The rustle of the crisp paper bag as you reach in to extract your prise. The feel of the embossing on the cover. You can run your hands over it and know that you are going to be intimately engrossed in the storey it has to tell.

As you open the cover there's always that little reluctance as it objects to being opened for the first time. You smile to yourself and because it's a new book you forgive it for the first few chapters, After all this might be classic read. A veritable War and Peace of a book. One to treasure and respect. One that might earn it's place on the your bookshelf to be admired taken down and held in your hand as you describe to any prepared to listen to why you think that this book, _this book_ you are allowing them to see and maybe even hold is one that they should themselves seek out and read because there is no way that _this book_ will be lent for anybody else to read. No _this book_ is too precious for that.

But as the plot develops and you get sucked into the world of imagination the cover starts to get on your wick. It becomes a barrier to the your pleasure. It starts to annoy. At this point you start to fully examine your life. Is it worth it you ask yourself. Has _this book_ got what it takes to carry me off to adventure and and tales of daring do or is it just a meaningless pile of crap that deserves nothing more that chucking in the bin. When I've finished this book will I regret the pain in my thumb from holding open the spine or will I think it was worth a life of arthritic agony, for I will go to my end knowing that at least I read the greatest piece of fiction ever written.

At this point you have the three options.

You an just chuck it, and lets be honest this is what happens to most of the stuff the publishing houses spew out nowadays.

You might decide this is the although not the best book ever it is the best read in years and carefully turn each page so as to preserve the joy and feel of the thing because you know you'll be reading this many times for years to come.

Or you can be sufficiently engrossed to decide the book deserves to be finished but that things are going to have to change.

So you need to take action. You turn the book over and bash the spine down and the bend it back till the glue cracks. Now the pages'll stay open. Plus this gives a handy method of marking where you're up to. No more of the book mark nonsense for me. (besides the cover of the book is the best book mark ever made)

Then you can carry on the the end of the book (periodically giving it the spine treatment of course) and usually regretting the decision not to bin it after all. Still it amused you for a wile but now it's over it can be cast in a gentle arc to land with a satisfactory thump in the bin in the corner.

Now call me old fashioned but in my opinion with the so called 'electronic' book none of these tactile and sensory pleasures are available. In which case I think you'll find most of the delight and experience of reading will be lost for all time.


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## mercs

Thanks for the warnings and good wishes guys. As pointed out lulu is POD and so ordering a run isn't as vital as with a private press. The 5000 figure is the dream figure I want to achieve, but yes I'm aware how difficult this is and how much work is required, but it's something to aim for!

As for batches, I have small batches myself in case they are needed. I'd like to get this number up so I can have some handy, but currently it's expensive starting out and having to juggle hundreds of different things! The first order I did was for 20 books, they've all gone. I have another 20 ordered and are being fulfilled currently. Two of these are already gone. I'd like to have more ordered, but the old wage cheque doesn't seem to stretch as far as i'd like!


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## Yahzi

TheEndIsNigh said:


> Now call me old fashioned but in my opinion with the so called 'electronic' book none of these tactile and sensory pleasures are available. In which case I think you'll find most of the delight and experience of reading will be lost for all time.




A lovely description of the reading process. You should be a writer. 

I agree that no existing E-book reader comes anywhere close to the simplicity, durability, and utility of a plain old book. However, that's gonna change.

Right now (as mercs can assure you) the majority of the cost of a book is in the physical media: printing, binding, storing, and shipping. This is bad for the author and the consumer. If I ever get a print publishing deal, I'll probably get 8% of the cover price as my cut. But my E-book publisher pays me a 40% royalty.

I put my own self-printed book out as a Kindle and download, in addition to print; I've sold more electronic copies than I have paper ones.

What has to happen is that the E-books have to become as pleasant to read as real books. Step one is killing the Kindle - how many books do you have that come with a freaking keyboard attached? We're not at replacement stage, but the thing is, by the time the POD presses become viable, they'll probably be superseded.



			
				Mercs said:
			
		

> The first order I did was for 20 books,


I forget the price breakdown at lulu - what kind of discount do you get for 20?

Also, have you considered an E-book version? Lulu doesn't make it easy to do that - you basically have to have an entirely separate product with the same name.

The other thing I'm dying to know is how you're doing with reviewers. So far I haven't found any reviewers that a) were willing to look at my book and b) had enough audience to justify sending them one. I might be too picky on the second part, though.

Finding reviewers is another place where you'll find a stigma attached to self-publishing. I had one site tell me they stopped reviewing self-published books  - even though some of them were very good - becuase they simply got too many.


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## mercs

Yahzi, 20 books gives you a 10% discount, plus the postages is almost the same as it is for 1 book -lulu and their conning ways of p&p! it means i can save close to £1.40 per book compared to buying one at a time. the problem is having the raw funds to buy 20,30,50 copies of the book in the first place!

as for reviews, i'm struggling too. i have sold mainly to family and friends so far. i've had two biters on absolutewrite that i was pleased about, and i'm hoping i will get some secondary sales from the above too. i don't even think then it will be well known and to do that i will need maybe a dozen good reviews from various media sources -and there is the problem!

as for the ebook readers, they are too crude at the moment. they could be good if they look more modern. currently they looked like a 1960s thunderbirds/james bond gadget and i know nobody who has one. if it was more minority report than captain scarlet, i'd consider getting one...


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## mygoditsraining

I quite like the Sony one we have in the house.  The technology is a touch too crude at the moment and the distribution models a little too clumsy, but nevertheless waxing lyrical about the "tactile pleasure" of print and discounting electronic distribution is a bit silly isn't it?  I mean, if someone's going to pay you money for a product you don't have to factor in costs for manufacture, storage or delivery of* - isn't that a _good thing_?

Also, on the subject of throwing books in the bin - I hope that really means "recycling bin" or the "take to a charity shop bin".

*well, technically it needs to be hosted, so there's a small cost there.


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## TheEndIsNigh

mygoditsraining said:


> I quite like the Sony one we have in the house. The technology is a touch too crude at the moment and the distribution models a little too clumsy, but nevertheless waxing lyrical about the "tactile pleasure" of print and discounting electronic distribution is a bit silly isn't it? I mean, if someone's going to pay you money for a product you don't have to factor in costs for manufacture, storage or delivery of* - isn't that a _good thing_?
> 
> Also, on the subject of throwing books in the bin - I hope that really means "recycling bin" or the "take to a charity shop bin".
> 
> *well, technically it needs to be hosted, so there's a small cost there.


 
Not really wishing to hijack the thread here but...

In fact the more a thing costs to make the more profit that can be made by the publisher. Most profit margins are based initially on the cost of the raw materials needed to make it - In the industry I work in - electronics - and some others I'm aware of this has traditionally been four times the component cost. So the higher the basic material costs the better. Which may go to explain why publishers now like thick weighty tombs of a thousand pages or more.

It used to work out as 25% material costs 25% manufacturing cost -overheads, machinery depreciation wages etc. 25% sales cost and 25% profit - needed to provide the capital for growth. These percentages can be trimmed - often the profit although or the cost of sales element (which includes the cost of distributing and any profit for the retailer) will be different from industry to industry but if the cost of manufacture is low due to the size of the batch then this reduction just boosts the profit.

Now if the basic cost of materials is reduced to zero and the manufacturing costs are also zero. Then the consumer starts to ask "What am I paying for?"

This is what's happening now in the music business. Everybody and his dog can download music for virtually nothing and as a result the commodity is considered worthless - IE should be free. (following the old maxim if *it's free, then it's worthless*) This is great for the consumer but pretty soon nobody wants the expense for no return and the music industry collapses and the only people recording new music are the ones happy not to be paid for their efforts. 

In a similar way writing becomes less attractive as a way of making money and the only things of the imagination will be government reports.


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## mercs

> The other thing I'm dying to know is how you're doing with reviewers. So far I haven't found any reviewers that a) were willing to look at my book and b) had enough audience to justify sending them one. I might be too picky on the second part, though.



I would say back on topic, but it was me that deviated...oops!

Have you promoted your book on the lulu forum itself? Unlike other sites that tell you to respect the work of fellow writers, they just cut you down and give a really damning verdict over what the book is worth. if you can stomach a few punches to the crotch, that's not a bad place to start...

One guy that will read your book and give detailed analysis is a member called Patrick Mackeown. He runs a site that reviews and promotes detective novels. To say he's the Simon Cowell of the site is fair in every sense. His reviews do seem harsh, but they are largely spot on and fair from what I've seen. Here's an example of one from yesterday that he posted...



> I hope you haven't paid the professional editors any money. The first line of your preview is missing its article. And what is an open hosed mouth? Please look at fiction books which you buy in shops. You'll see that they don't have blank lines between all paragraphs. Between passages there might be blank lines or chapter breaks.
> 
> Please do not spend too much time defending the errors in your book. It's more constructive to recognise them and remove them than it is to argue about them and then remove them anyway.
> 
> I sincerely do hope that you have not paid anyone to do to your book what has been done to it, because if you have, then you have not been well-served.



His name appeared in my shameless promotion thread over there and I braced myself, but turns out he likes it! (well save for some knocks here and there!). I'm actually quite pleased with this!



> Hello Kristopher,
> 
> I enjoyed reading parts of your free introduction very much. I can find lots of tiny details which are the kinds of things which irritate grammarians and linguistic experts. But, on the whole the book reads well. Well done. The Standard English is largely good. Small things which people may be irritated by are: The professor is called both Professor and Mr. in the story. Sticklers for titles, I'm sure, would prefer it if you picked one and stuck to it. You refer to the Professor (sometimes) as Mr., but you refer to Volks as Herr. Sticklers might prefer to see titles in a story, where related to characters with the same nationality, referred to in the same language. When Voks threatens the boy with a gun he is described as pulling the gun from his waistband, but pointed it at the child. It's customary to remain in the same tense throughout narrative descriptions.
> 
> I couldn't understand the quoted dedication.
> 
> I shan't go on and on pointing out tiny irritations, save but to say that they don't spoil the flow of the story exactly, because they're largely stylistic. But, regardless of how they're categorised, they're still there. If you want to remove such potential irritations you may wish to discuss the process of editing books with people.
> 
> In any case, congratulations on what could potentially prove to be a very, very fine piece of work indeed.
> 
> Footnote:
> It should be noted for people who like to argue about things simply for the sake of arguing about things, that with stylistic observations they are neither right nor wrong. With stylistic observations all are opinions about personal taste.


----------



## mygoditsraining

TheEndIsNigh said:


> the only people recording new music are the ones happy not to be paid for their efforts.



Any chance that you could take it to another thread, TEIN?  I mean, there was a thread a while back about print versus eBooks; it's probably been long dead but still - it's not very nice to Mercs that his thread is being diverted out of lastword-itis.
*
Mercs! *Back to the topic.*  PUSH THAT BOOK!

*Nice review from the Simon Cowell dude - although personally I'd save the Simon Cowell reference for someone who's both blunt *and* immensely powerful in the industry - if those minor nitpicks are his major issues on reading your work, that's pretty good. 

Oh, while I'm here: there are multiple artists making a living off of creative commons releases - where they allow people to distribute their work freely, but if you'd like to pay for it, that's good too.  Radiohead experimented with it a while back, and although their profit margin was lower, it was a great publicity stunt and although they made less money, _they still turned a profit_.  artists like Jonathan Coulton and writers like Cory Doctorow make a living off of an "open source" policy to their work.

Considering Amanda Palmer made money by merchandising off of an evening spent on Twitter (_i hereby call_ THE LOSERS OF _FRIDAY NIGHT_ ON THEIR COMPUTERS  to _ORDER), _you should never, ever, underestimate the public's willingness to consume, as long as you hit the right note.


----------



## Gary Compton

mercs said:


> Hello Kristopher,
> 
> I enjoyed reading parts of your free introduction very much. I can find lots of tiny details which are the kinds of things which irritate grammarians and linguistic experts. But, on the whole the book reads well. Well done. The Standard English is largely good. Small things which people may be irritated by are: The professor is called both Professor and Mr. in the story. Sticklers for titles, I'm sure, would prefer it if you picked one and stuck to it. You refer to the Professor (sometimes) as Mr., but you refer to Volks as Herr. Sticklers might prefer to see titles in a story, where related to characters with the same nationality, referred to in the same language. When Voks threatens the boy with a gun he is described as pulling the gun from his waistband, but pointed it at the child. It's customary to remain in the same tense throughout narrative descriptions.
> 
> I couldn't understand the quoted dedication.
> 
> I shan't go on and on pointing out tiny irritations, save but to say that they don't spoil the flow of the story exactly, because they're largely stylistic. But, regardless of how they're categorised, they're still there. If you want to remove such potential irritations you may wish to discuss the process of editing books with people.
> 
> In any case, congratulations on what could potentially prove to be a very, very fine piece of work indeed.
> 
> Footnote:
> It should be noted for people who like to argue about things simply for the sake of arguing about things, that with stylistic observations they are neither right nor wrong. With stylistic observations all are opinions about personal taste.


 
Hey Mercs you should be pretty pleased with that, well done mate!!


----------



## mercs

I was a little surprised, but it's mostly positive! Sure admittedly it's not the head of a publishing house or trade magazine or literature section for the times, but it's a hard to please bloke saying it's not all bad...

He didn't buy a copy mind lol...

I'm going to give it a proper go and see where it takes me. I'm either going to get the ball rolling and maybe get noticed or it will die a painful death with the copies sitting away on friends and family's bookshelves/lofts....


----------



## Joey Sixknuckles

I think it's worth giving a few people a free copy if it can lead to enough sales to cover the cost of the freebie if nothing else.

Mercs - have you contacted the local paper? Is your book set in your area, if not how about contacting the local press in the main area it is set? Never underestimate the power of a local connection, people will buy books just because the author is local, I have before and been glad.


----------



## mercs

I'm trying to get it into the independents in my area and trying to contact Waterstones to see if they will stock a few signed copies. At the moment the thing that is holding me back is the distribution package, as there's still five weeks to wait until you can get it on a site other than my own basic one!

Currently I'm just getting a few early sales under my belt, as this will give me a basis to start with. Once all friends, family and acquaintances have their copies I will branch out even more....

And I'd love to give away more free copies, but I'd have to really consider who to. It would be disasterous if I just gave them away willy-nilly so need to weigh up who will get one and when...


----------



## mercs

Just a quick update to add that the book has just appeared on all the international amazons (some at stupid prices sadly -I hope I have no Japanese people considering my book, as the stupid price will put them off for sure!) and a few other sites. I've got a book signing evening at a local independent, which I'm also using as a mini launch party with a lot of friends and family coming along to create a real buzz...

All I need now is to convince the Waterstone's in my area to carry them and then to start spreading out and trying to build up a bit of a base...

A lot of hard work and a long way still to go (nearly 1% to the target I set myself lol!) but enjoying the experience and actually getting out there...


----------



## Frontierzone

Good job, mercs.  And don't worry about snobs like some people here who shall remain Ya... I mean... nameless. Self-published is still published. (Or were Mark Twain, Thomas Jefferson, Edmund Burke, Ben Franklin, and William Shakespeare _only_ self printed? You're in better company than many might think.)  Keep the dream alive. Again, well done.


----------



## Michael01

It's good to hear you've made this step, Mercs. I wish you luck, as it will entail a lot of hard work. I tried self-publishing and wasn't up to the task, unfortunately.  I've even got a couple books on Lulu now, one I've been trying to give away FREE for the past two years and still only managed to move 20 copies (despite a good review from POD People).  But, as has been mentioned above, Mark Robson has shown us all that it _can_ be done.

Can you tell us something about *Lyrian*?


----------



## TheEndIsNigh

Mercs: Just checking is that the one Aamzon has listed as ISBN: 1409289869


----------



## mercs

Sorry guys for the delay, I actually couldn't remember where I started this thread, this site is VERY hard to get around at times!

Frontierzone, if I recall Kipling, Blake, Byron, Twain and several others did it as well, although I will wait a few years and a few million copies before I class myself in that list 

Michael01, sorry to hear that. It's hard work on lulu, as you get zero support and good books are two a penny sadly. I don't know anyone that shops around on lulu for books, so I've given up even trying to sell copies via them -infact I just ignore any links to lulu and point people in the direction of Amazon or my own site, as it's cheaper in terms of postage, it's quicker and more reliable...

TheEndIsNigh (that's so hard to type!), not sure if I'm honest. It's the only book titled Lyrian and is by Kristopher James (my pen name). It might be the same one. Now I'm hoping you haven't seen a typo or an embarrassing novice error in the piece!

As for the book itself, I was hoping to recreate a MG fantasy along the lines of Alice in Wonderland or the Narnia chronicles. I didn't want sorcery, wizards, elves, romance, vampires or anything else that is fashionable, just a classic, golden era fantasy story of children discovering a world in its infancy...

To date I'm clocking up the odd sale, but very hard work. Waterstones just won't get back to me about stocking the book, which means no one else will give me the time of day. So all my sales are coming through browbaiting and hassling people to go on Amazon and buy the item. I can still trace every sale to who bought it -never a good sign for an author I'm sure!- but I did get a sale on the US Amazon last week that was unaccounted for, which made me so happy you wouldn't believe!

People can mock the self publishing route, and maybe it is fake and false, but I just want to write. I'll never be in a position to make millions off it, I could spend decades pressing agents to try and get signed. At least this way I will get the item recorded and there for me to hold and get a very good wake up call in the process...


----------



## Gary Compton

It's not going to be easy Mercs, at the moment you have no momentum but if you keep at it and your sales grow and so will the momentum.

Have you considered selling on Ebay - there are one million punters on line at any given time. As I've mentioned before if you had your own stock you could post them out when you make a sale.

PM if you want any Ebay advice

Regards


----------



## mercs

Cheers Gary, I have considered eBay as an option, but does it work? I have an ID with 50+ sales and 100% feedback, so reputation isn't that hard, but never thought it'd be an option for a book not many people would have heard of!

It's so hard to get the ball rolling and annoyingly so! I'm hoping it will improve eventually as it's just so much hard work to move up to the top 250 books on lulu, let alone actually be in a position where I would create a bit of a following...


----------



## Gary Compton

mercs said:


> Cheers Gary, I have considered eBay as an option, but does it work? I have an ID with 50+ sales and 100% feedback, so reputation isn't that hard, but never thought it'd be an option for a book not many people would have heard of!
> 
> It's so hard to get the ball rolling and annoyingly so! I'm hoping it will improve eventually as it's just so much hard work to move up to the top 250 books on lulu, let alone actually be in a position where I would create a bit of a following...


 
I'm currently playing around with an idea for all the writer publishers on this forum. 

I hate that word self-published by the way, it makes you sound like a second class citizen. 

I think it'll not be long before being a writer publisher is the way forward for writers as well as getting a deal in the traditional way. 

You're one of the new breed of writer publishers and I've been thinking that if all the writers who'd honed their work to perfection and then gone to the trouble of printing the books had a central hub dedicated to driving internet traffic through the site, it would help push their sales.

So with this in mind I've bought www.bookazon.co.uk as the writer publishers central hub. (I'm busy building the site so there is nothing there yet)

You would be afforded completely free of charge your own sub domain say www.mercs.bookazon.co.uk and on that page or pages you could host details of your book, your blog, first couple of chapters say, buy it now button for a download and one for the paper back copy of your book. 

As much information as possible.

Now the more authors who come on board the better it will be for everybody, I'll put google adsense on the site and any revenue would go towards advertising the site around the net. I'll link it to my other sites which will help traffic.

Basically it will cost authors nothing, if some one buys your book the monies will go directly to your paypal account and you can despatch direct - simple isnt it?

The secret is getting visitors through the site, which is more difficult with a dedicated authors site with only one book - on the internet content is King, the more you have the more visitors you'll get.

With regard to Ebay, I cant see it working for individual authors with their own accounts. My daughter runs a very successful Ebay shop selling gifts, football souvenirs, kitchen handles and other stuff. She gets 10,000 customers through the shop every month. 

She's agreed to have a book section which will work in a similar way. You receive the money, you despatch but the author will have to have a small amount of stock (Dont want any negative feedback on her shop for slow despatch) 

The cost per month to you for your book listing will be 5 pence a month. If you set your own Ebay shop up it's between £20 and £50 a month and you wont get the traffic.

I know this idea will take alot of work but I reckon it'll succeed and the reason I'm doing this as I intend to become a writer publisher probably next year. 

As a collective we might have more clout with Waterstones, WH Smiths etc.

I intend this to be a non profit making co-operative where everybody owns a part of it.

What do you think?


----------



## dustinzgirl

If you really want to market your book on your own, this is what you need:

Pages of articles about you and the book.
A website with tons of SEO keywords.
Tons of blogs with articles about the book and keywords in it.
Google Adwords; Amazon's marketing thing (IDK what its called--booksurger?)

This is why going the route yourself is harder than with a publisher, but if you have the money to throw into advertising when it is your first book then you can really get some 'momentum'.

Basically you need traffic. And people to write things about your book. There are many magazines that do reviews, you should do a search for them.


----------



## Pyan

Well done mercs - over the first big hurdle, anyway...

I can't help noticing that you only mention Waterstones as a potential stockist; have you considered Borders? I believe that the British stores are now separate to the original brand, so they may be more flexible than they were.


----------



## mercs

pyan, the problem I have with Borders is that the manager of the Bullring branch asked me "what have waterstones said?", which took me back, and I was honest and said that it was hard to get Waterstones to commit to a new project but I am talking with two of their managers about stocking signed copies in their stores...

Gary, I love the idea and that might be what we all need. I don't know the community as well as others on here, I mean are there a lot of self published authors about? If so then we have potentially a dozen or so straight off!



> With regard to Ebay, I cant see it working for individual authors with their own accounts. My daughter runs a very successful Ebay shop selling gifts, football souvenirs, kitchen handles and other stuff. She gets 10,000 customers through the shop every month.



That's quite funny that I was mentioning my 50+ positive feedbacks in the last post then! I think that's what's needed as it's hard enough to sell your regular stuff let alone stuff people don't yet know about...

As for replacing traditional publishing (that's another term that should be banned!), I think it is in terms of quantity, if not quality. The sheer numbers will soon dwarf publishing house books, but not many big sellers are there? I think it's just the way the world is going with itunes, blogging, twitter, youtube etc...


----------



## Gary Compton

mercs said:


> pyan, the problem I have with Borders is that the manager of the Bullring branch asked me "what have waterstones said?",


 
Ah the first lesson in selling, the answer should have been. 

'I got a brilliant reception from them and they are going to order some books.'

It's unlikely they will check!

To get on in life sometimes you've got to be a blagger, lie on your CV or tell a couple of porkies. It's the only way to progress unfortunately.

Being whiter than white, whilst good for your soul doesnt put food on the table

I'll let you know when www.bookazon.co.uk is built.


----------



## dustinzgirl

gary compton said:


> 'I got a brilliant reception from them and they are going to order some books.'
> 
> It's unlikely they will check!



On the off chance that they do check, you'd ruin your name, likely not permanently but at least for a while. 

I do a lot of freelance marketing research work, and I just can't condone not being honest. That doesn't mean that you have to spill all the beans, but you can't outright lie. either. 

In my business, as a freelancer running my own site, my good name and my list of contact references are paramount. I've never fudged my CV, I've even outright told some of the people I"ve done advertising article plans for that I didn't have experience, but here is my (perfect) marketing plan for their site/service/product.


----------



## Gary Compton

I hear what your saying Dustinzgirl but there is always two sides to an opinion. When I started by business 30 years ago at the ripe old age of 21 I did bend the truth and tell a few porkies and it worked for me.

I never said anything that i knew I couldnt deliver so in my mind I was telling the truth.

How many writers have submitted to a few agents at the same time even when the agent has said in their guidelines that they want to be the only one to look at it.

There's no template in life that is the definitive one, entrepreneurs have to take risks to get on. Writing, publishing and marketing your own book is a big ask and is like running a business and you do have to be an entrepreneur. 

You've got to make your own breaks at the moment Mercs isnt in Waterstones so good reputation or bad is irrelavant - they are not selling his books so it's a calculated risk. 

I'd hazard a guess that Mercs is young where as Scarfy looks a bit more worn around the edges (I Love you really) so the manager wouldnt neccesarily take him seriously. I could be wrong but you've got to force yourself onto the ladder.

Thats just my opinion though


----------



## dustinzgirl

gary compton said:


> I hear what your saying Dustinzgirl but there is always two sides to an opinion. When I started by business 30 years ago at the ripe old age of 21 I did bend the truth and tell a few porkies and it worked for me.



For the four to five years I worked at Dell I was constantly in the top 10% of global sales. That means of the 100K sales people worldwide, me and my team were in the top 1000 constantly. I never lied. If anyone on our team got caught fudging the truth or lying to a customer, they were fired on the spot. I just can't get behind fudging the truth. 

I have a pretty definitive template. Be nice and tell the truth and always stand your ground. Its worked out pretty well for me so far. 

And I completely agree, a writer that isn't a staff writer has to wear many hats, I mainly do freelance work (not this year because of grandma I've put it all on hold its very stressful) and have had to build, develop, publish, advertise, and sell myself all over the net. I worked my arse off doing it, and I did it with integrity. I probably lost a few good paying contracts because of it, and I probably took a few good paying contracts that I shouldn't have just because of the level of work involved and the lack of English on the customer's side, but in any case I've always been honest about who I am, what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, how I'm doing it, and where I've started from and where I plan on going. 

Of course agents don't want you to send something to more than one publisher. You would be very put out if your book was so amazing that you got two or three contracts at the same time, not to mention that the editor or agent who did NOT get paid for reading your material would be very put out if you had to say that you took a different contract because that would be a ginormous waste of their time. Every time I've sent all of my thousands upon thousands of rejections, I've never sent to more than one place if they requested that I not. Thats just being patient and honest and understanding. 

I would not want one of my clients contracting for the same articles with another freelancer and then deciding not to pay me post-work. 

It is hard, hard work being a writer. You are pretty much on your own, and the world is pretty much mean. So you do have to work ten times as hard as anyone else on the planet, and you have to have patience and constant desire for success. Being self published is even harder, because you have to have the time, the motivation, and the methods to pay for your own advertising. Which is very, very, very hard. 

I'm not going to say I've never lied, but certainly not in business dealings.


----------



## Gary Compton

I agree, in an organisation like Dell you've got to be an angel I would imagine but in the hard, gritty world of starting a business from scratch, with no money, no backers just little old me, it's completely different - a billion light years apart.

Ask Donald Trump, Richard Branson or Peter Jones and they'll tell you you've got to blag a little bit to get going.

I don't like the word lies, saying Waterstones have ordered is just being positive cos if you persevere they will. So your not lying your just predicting the future.

They cant lock you up for being a clarevoyant can they?


----------



## Ursa major

gary compton said:


> They cant lock you up for being a clarevoyant can they?


 
You'd be surprised:


> Helen Duncan (25 November 1897 – 6 December 1956) was a Scottish medium best known as the last person to be imprisoned under the British Witchcraft Act of 1735.


Helen Duncan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​


----------



## Gary Compton

Howay Ursa Major, 17.35, that was 6 hours ago or have I had too many cans?


----------



## Ursa major

(Bearly over five-and-a-half hours.)

The name, British Witchcraft Act, seems odd: did they have a different Act for non-British witches?


----------



## dustinzgirl

gary compton said:


> I agree, in an organisation like Dell you've got to be an angel I would imagine but in the hard, gritty world of starting a business from scratch, with no money, no backers just little old me, it's completely different - a billion light years apart.
> 
> Ask Donald Trump, Richard Branson or Peter Jones and they'll tell you you've got to blag a little bit to get going.
> 
> I don't like the word lies, saying Waterstones have ordered is just being positive cos if you persevere they will. So your not lying your just predicting the future.
> 
> They cant lock you up for being a clarevoyant can they?



Thats how I started my freelance career and business and website, and still never compromised my personal integrity. I realize we are just arguing things that really don't matter, but I would personally be wary of signing up to work with your store when you openly admit to fudging the truth to your previous clients. I don't think its good business or good ethics to suggest to others that they make up stories to get ahead. 

I've worked big business and I've ran small business and my own business. Not once have I ever felt like telling a tall tale to get a customer. I have had to reneg on contracts and I've had to return funds when family stuff happened, especially this year, so I can't say I'm a perfect businesswoman, but I also can't condone suggesting someone tell a lie to get ahead in business. 

In any case Gary, I'm not trying to nag you although I know I sound like it. I realize people often do what they think they have to do, I'm just saying I've always done it a different way. 

And no, they don't lock you up anymore but they might burn you at the stake, I hear thats still happening.

PS: Not a single one of those people is on my list of people I think are good, decent business people nor are they people I would do business with.

Ask Google Cofounders Larry and Sergey, Michael Dell, and my hero Philip Kotler.


----------



## Gary Compton

All I'm saying is that if you walk into Waterstones and say, 'Hi I'm Gary and I've written a book and I have virtually no sales, and no track record.' The manager isnt going to be that impressed.

In the UK they call it "spin" it's not lying but it is taking the positives out of a pitch and talking them up a little.

With all due respect I've been at the end of a Dell sales person painting the picture of a wonderful laptop and yet when it arrived I had nothing but trouble - was the Dell representative lying. Off course not, they were talking about the good things about Dell and all I was suggesting to Mercs was to talk it up a bit.

You've got your opinion/ethics and I respect them. They've worked for you. 

I personally have massive amounts of integrity but I will talk up my positives and lock my negatives in a cupboard somewhere. There is nothing wrong with that, it happens everyday in a car showroom somewhere! 

All I'm thinking of doing is give writers a leg up with marketing (At my expense), yes they should still do their own stuff but as you know getting yourself across the net, gets you more visits to your site.

If you dont buy into the idea then it's not a problem. 

Regards


----------



## Gary Compton

dustinzgirl said:


> PS: Not a single one of those people is on my list of people I think are good, decent business people nor are they people I would do business with.


 
Sir Richard Branson and Peter Jones (Dragons Den -BBC) are some of the most respected business people in the UK and Donald Trump is a ruthless son of a ..... but I like him


----------



## dustinzgirl

No silly, you never, ever, never say what you DON'T have. You always say what you do have.

Hi, my name is Dusty. This is my recently completed novel Booger. Booger will be an excellent addition to Waterstone because it is a book that many people outside of the niche nose market can relate too. Booger has immense potential, it has slime, picking, and even the occasional chewing and swallowing. All of these components would make Booger a strong seller for Waterstone. I also have several ideas for advertising Booger, and visiting venues for book signings."

That is how you sell. Not making up stories, but making everything you say be a positive what I can do for you! definition and explanation.

PS: Yeah, I've watched Dragon's Den. Seriously.

PPS: If you lock up your negatives, how will you ever make those into positives? How can you possibly grow as a person if you don't face what you can't do?


----------



## Gary Compton

dustinzgirl said:


> PPS: If you lock up your negatives, how will you ever make those into positives? How can you possibly grow as a person if you don't face what you can't do?


 
Hi Dusty don't you worry about me, I've been married to the same woman for 30 years, our two kids are well balanced and one is at Uni and my son is in business. I've grown quite well as a person and a t 51 I don't think I'll change. I love my Mother, miss my Father and remember the good times with me Granny and Grandad. Thanks for worrying about me though.

There is nothing I cant do when I put my mind to it, so anyway it's late now 23.54 UK time so I'm going to walk my dogs on the beach - yes pitch black but it's relaxing and they've got ex-ray eyes so nighty night and speak to you next time.


----------



## Teresa Edgerton

gary compton said:


> I think it'll not be long before being a writer publisher is the way forward for writers as well as getting a deal in the traditional way.



I honestly don't think it will be a way forward except for the exceptionally talented and/or amazingly energetic and motivated few.

There is too much total and unmitigated drek being self-published, and I don't see that changing, and so long as this is true it's always going to cast an unfavorable light on those who publish their own books.  Yes, there are ways to overcome that stigma, but it constitutes a huge roadblock.

Of course there are poorly written books from major publishers, but the very worst of them are better than the vast majority of self-published novels.

And while a book from major publisher has the benefit of the doubt with readers and booksellers, and the general assumption is that it will be good (until proven otherwise), the author of the self-published book has to work tirelessly, inventively, relentlessly just to pull even with these traditionally published books.  And I think this disadvantage will continue to exist, and perhaps increase, as it becomes easier and cheaper for the worst books to be produced.

(I say this as someone who intends to self-publish two novels from her backlist, so I don't look down on the process.  On the other hand, I'm going to do this only to bring the books back into print; I have no expectations that I will sell a great many of them.  I am very bad at self-promotion.  I imagine I could learn, but I'm not one of those super-energetic people, and would prefer to devote what energy I have to writing.)


----------



## mercs

gary, you might be right, but i wanted to come across as humble, sincere and say where I was at that time. It did throw me as I was talking about the local buzz I could create, the minimal risk involved in just stocking a few copies, the margins etc. So when they asked about a competitor I didn't really know what to say and so just told the truth...

I'm also wondering about the perception too. If Scarfy appears like in his avatar, then he does look intellectual and like a writer. Despite there being very few years between us, I'm cursed with having the appearance of a 12 year old boy! I'm approaching 27 in a few months time, but still I get ID'd almost everywhere! But it's not really something I can help, as I don't have the money to hire a model salesman that looks a little "booky"...

Teresa, most people I have met in self publishing are just looking to get noticed by a publishing house. It won't replace it as anyone who is good jumps ship with a click of the fingers. also firms like lulu don't want to promote books as they do precious little to drum up interest in their titles. it's entirely up to the writer and if you have something truly remarkable, you'd rather an expert promotes it than you do the entire thing alone and blind...


----------



## Gary Compton

Dont worry about it Mercs, where there's a will theres a way!! When I first started in business I was 21/22 and had the youthful look (God how I wish I had it now instead of being an old wrinkly) 

I had to get past that ageism thing and you will I'm sure.

The proof of the pudding is how good your story is. I've read old man Scarfy's book and its very good. So whilst I see Teresa's point I dont agree with it. (Nothing new there)

I'm going to buy your book and read it and give you my honest review of it. I'm the type of guy who, when someone says 'This is not possible or you cant do that.' It spurs me on so watch this space and be positive, Rome wasnt built in a day.

I'll be in touch


----------



## Ursa major

Sometimes a publishing blag goes that little bit too far:


> In the crowded field of political biography, it can be hard for a novice author to stand out. But not Denis Sassou-Nguesso, the president of Congo-Brazzaville, who has certainly managed to make a splash.
> 
> In his new tome he boasts, in large type on the cover, that it contains a foreword written by Nelson Mandela, South Africa's first black president.
> 
> The foreword praises Sassou-Nguesso as "one of our great African leaders" which, as endorsements go, beats the Booker and Nobel prizes rolled into one.
> 
> But the biography, Straight Speaking for Africa, appears to fall short of its title. Mandela has issued a statement saying he did not write the foreword. Nor has he read the book. He plans to take legal action.


A bit foreword! Nelson Mandela plans legal action over 'fake endorsement' | World news | guardian.co.uk​ 


Perhaps one ought to be careful about the company one wants to keep.... 


_(I hope Denis Sassou-Nguesso is not a member here.)_


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## dustinzgirl

Silly Mercs, you don't look like a 12 year old boy, you look:

invigorating, strong, youthful, playful, fresh, innovative, crisp, sparkling, immortal, renewed, vital, perky, agile, even sassy. 

Its all in positive presentation. And each of those terms can be used to market your new book to dang near anyone.


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## Gary Compton

Ursa major said:


> Sometimes a publishing blag goes that little bit too far:
> A bit foreword! Nelson Mandela plans legal action over 'fake endorsement' | World news | guardian.co.uk​
> 
> Perhaps one ought to be careful about the company one wants to keep....
> 
> 
> _(I hope Denis Sassou-Nguesso is not a member here.)_


 
Ah Nelson, a personal friend along with Prince Charles and Maddonna


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## Ursa major

_Nelson?_







(I expect you want me to turn a blind eye to that.... )

.


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## The Judge

mercs said:


> I'm also wondering about the perception too. If Scarfy appears like in his avatar, then he does look intellectual and like a writer. Despite there being very few years between us, I'm cursed with having the appearance of a 12 year old boy! I'm approaching 27 in a few months time, but still I get ID'd almost everywhere! But it's not really something I can help, as I don't have the money to hire a model salesman that looks a little "booky"...



mercs, I had this problem when I qualified.  And if you think looking young and innocent is a disadvantage as a writer, try being a litigation lawyer!  Appropriate clothing helps of course, smart suits and all the rest of it.  But in my case it was glasses which helped.  People think spectacles = intelligence.  (OK, not in the case of the Edna Everage sort, but usually.)  I had glasses made up with clear glass - ie didn't alter my vision in any way, but hey presto made me look 10 years older and wiser.  (Pity it doesn't work in reverse nowadays...)

Good luck with the book

J


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## Ursa major

The Judge is Superwoman! 


As to looking much too young, I had this problem (which becomes more bearable as one gets older ). The glasses didn't help that much, so I had to resort to a (small) beard** ***.



** - As I had long hair, and was, in those days, slim, the beard countereacted another, unfortunate, misconception that I sometimes met. (A moustache - a pale reddish one that was barely visible - had not worked in this respect.)

*** - After a few years I was able to get rid of the beard. However, I made the mistake of shaving it off on my birthday, which is in early January. Going outside had an effect similar to having an injection from the dentist. Brrrrr!


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## Frontierzone

> Frontierzone, if I recall Kipling, Blake, Byron, Twain and several others did it as well, although I will wait a few years and a few million copies before I class myself in that list


 
It's been awhile since I've been on, but I did mention Twain. And, yes, my list was a short one, and all I could think of at the time. Still, people like us are in better company than the snobs in the "publishing game" would like to admit. Also, remember, it's the quality of the writing that counts. None of the ones mentioned sold a million over night, but they are no less great, if for no other reason, than for having done what they love. The sales came later. So, woohoo! We're in great company! 

For a large list of self published authors for the snobs to ponder, here goes:

Alexander Dumas
Alexander Pope
Alfred Lord Tennyson
Anais Nin
Beatrix Potter
Benjamin Franklin
Carl Sandburg
Christopher Paolini
D.H. Lawrence
Deepak Chopra
E. Lynn Harris
E.E. Cummings
Edgar Allen Poe
Edgar Rice Burroughs
Ernest Hemingway
Ezra Pound
George Bernard Shaw
Gertrude Stein
Henry David Thoreau
Homer
Irma Rombauer
Jack Canfield and Mark Hensen
James Redfield
John Grisham
John Muir
Julius Caesar
Ken Blanchard
L.Frank Baum
L.Ron Hubbard
Lawrence Ferlinghetti
Leo Tolstoy
Lord Byron
Louis L'Amour
Marcel Proust
Mark Twain
Marlo Morgan
Nathaniel Hawthorne
Pat Conroy
Percy Bysche Shelly
Pliny the Elder
Pliny the Younger
Pope John Pual II
Richard Bolles
Richard Nixon
Richard Paul Evans
Robert Bly
Robert Service
Robinson Jeffers
Rod McKuen
Rudyard Kipling
St. Matthew
St. Mark
St. Luke
St. John
St. Paul
St. James
St. Jude
St. Augustine
St. Thomas Aquinas
Spencer Johnson
Stephen Crane
Stephen King
T.S. Eliot
Thomas Hardy
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Paine
Tom Peters
Upton Sinclair
Virginia Woolf
W.E.B. DuBois
Walt Whitman
Willie Cather
William Blake
William Shakespeare
Zane Grey

Whew! That's a lot!


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## Gary Compton

Brilliant Frontierzone, but I don't think there are any snobs on here just people with strong opinions on either side of the argument.

I've no doubt though, that there are snobs in publishing, whether agents or publishers but that's the same in any profession.

I think in this day and age if your book is good enough, and I bet there are plenty sitting in peoples draws with a pile of rejection letters that are. It's possible to self publish and eventually earn a living at it.

Considering say the average book retail price is £6.99, the big publishers get them printed for 25-30p each (£0.25-30) 

At the moment Amazon/Gardners etc will take 55% of that RRP if you use their platform to sell. That's you sending them stock and they distribute.  You can sell yourself with an Amazon storefront which costs £25 per month and they take a  17.5% commission, when the sale is made but you'll have to send them out yourself.

Then the publisher will take a large chunk and eventually the author gets a royalty of around 60p after his advance is paid back. (Teresa and the others may know better than me how much it is exactly) 

And don't forget your agents 15% on your earnings also so I'd imagine you'd have to sell a hell of alot of books to cover your advance.

Whereas if you print your own, (I've managed to get it to 67p per book, and thats little old me) your left with £6.32 gross profit per book for sales and marketing.

So let's say you manage to sell a 1000 books in year 1 you would have earnings of £6320 after you'd payed your printer. (Which I think is more than the average advance) Re-invest that in adverts/marketing and the momentum will begin to build.

2000 books the next year, remember your in charge so it can take as long as necessary. I believe Mark Robson did sales on the lines I'm outlining here if my memory serves me well.

Do a Dan Brown and sell 6 million and make 38 million but you would need to have an infrastructure that could cope with that amount to distribute - jobs for the boys though!!

Anyway enough of me rabbiting on, when I have my book to a standard that I'm happy with. I personally have no intention of submitting to agents/publishers. Nothing personal guys it's just I fancy  trying to  do it all myself - how much fun it will it be.


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## Yahzi

Teresa Edgerton said:


> There is too much total and unmitigated drek being self-published,


I sometimes think people don't understand just how bad some of this stuff is.


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## Gary Compton

Yahzi said:


> I sometimes think people don't understand just how bad some of this stuff is.


 

There's an awful lot of drek sitting on the shelves of the book shops also. However it is subjective so one man's passion is another man's poison.

How many self-published books have you read out of interest Yahzi?


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## blacknorth

gary compton said:


> There's an awful lot of drek sitting on the shelves of the book shops also. However it is subjective so one man's passion is another man's poison.



That's very true. I read better stuff in the crit section here than I do browsing the shelves in Waterstones.

I have a presentiment that self-publishing will take-off in the future, especially online. But rather than downloading hefty tomes and ruining our eyesight, I think we'll go back to the nineteenth century format and read self-published prose online as serials; chapters at a time with good old-fashioned cliff-hangers. 

People are making their own films and recording their own music and streaming them all. What makes us think publishing will be any different? Sometimes I wonder how the publishing world would look if writers devoted a fraction of the time they spend writing to developing new ways to get their work seen, heard, read.


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## Gary Compton

blacknorth said:


> That's very true. I read better stuff in the crit section here than I do browsing the shelves in Waterstones.
> 
> I have a presentiment that self-publishing will take-off in the future, especially online. But rather than downloading hefty tomes and ruining our eyesight, I think we'll go back to the nineteenth century format and read self-published prose online as serials; chapters at a time with good old-fashioned cliff-hangers.
> 
> People are making their own films and recording their own music and streaming them all. What makes us think publishing will be any different? Sometimes I wonder how the publishing world would look if writers devoted a fraction of the time they spend writing to developing new ways to get their work seen, heard, read.


 
Very good point Blacknorth, most people want to conform and be part of the establishment which means following their rules. There will always be a new approach, I think if you want to self publish, you've got to be willing to spend 100's of £'s getting a proffessional editor look at your work and when criticism comes, act on it. 

Treat your book the way a proffessional would and go through all the processes to make it better. And the critiques section is a great place for feedback. Don't be a wimp, put something up and you'll learn alot.

My advice is dont rush to publish. Get it as perfect as possible and if the editor says no it needs work then follow his advice.

It's a product so it has to be good, don't be put off by the criticism cos it's all useful.


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## LloB1

Hi Mercs 

I admire your enthusiasm and your determination in writing your novel and self publishing it. I have done the same as you have and like yourself i wanted to share this with the community on this site but was beaten down by users on this site who deem self publising almost like the paralympics of olympic sport - second rate. 
I would suggest you persevere with trying to get your book noticed. The technology is out there for you to promote your book. 

Set up your own website, join facebook, join twitter, join book websites that allow your to promote your novel such as bookarmy.co.uk, get people to review your book even if they are friends and family. And get your book in a bookstore and once its in that bookstore promote it like hell stand outside the bookstore and tell people about your book by handing out postcards. 

And above all i would not spend too much time on this website as it can be demoralising when most of the users, maybe unintentionally, take qoutes from your posts and try to quash your dreams. That is what you dont need at this time. The traditionalist mentality of how the publishing industry should work is too prevalent on this site. So only use this site with caution.

Good luck


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## The Judge

Well, LloB1, all I can think is that you read a very different SFFChrons from me.  No one is here to crush anyone's dreams -- as I hope mercs will already know from the helpful advice he has received. 

What does happen is that those who have some idea of the way life actually works try to help the rest of us by pointing out the facts.  And one of the most important facts -- as Gary has so properly said in the post immediately preceding yours -- is that a writer has to be a professional.  Which means she has to approach her work in a professional manner, not least in employing an editor or having the work critiqued in some other way.  

Unfortunately there are those who refuse to accept criticism of their work and who appear to believe that their rejection by agents and publishers is because of a conspiracy by the establishment rather than because their novel is unmitigated dross.  Such people take to self-publishing and in doing so ruin the concept for all the good writers who do take pride in their work and who strive to make it perfect.  It is not the fault of the traditionalists that self-publishing is frequently seen as second best.  It is the fault of those who are illiterate, incompetent story-tellers who vanity publish.

J


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## LloB1

I understand your point but it seems you all fail to understand or ignore the fact that all writers do it by themselves to an extent the only difference is that to publish in the traditional way an author gets the backing of a publishing house that helps shape and perfect that work. A self published author can do the same thing as a publishing house if they take their time and invest in their work. They may not get it write the first time but they can work on it. 

To suggest that most self published authors dont take pride in their work is to suggest that they dont have much passion or commitment to the subject they are writing about or the prose and i believe that is wrong.

I myself believe in the concept that in order to get anything in this life and world you cant expect others to open doors and give you a chance to shine because there are too many variables involved. You have to make a way for yourself you have to shout and wave your hands louder than the thousands around you and hope someone will hear your cry, and sometimes in the end you will get the most respect because people will see that you tried independantly and didnt wait to be served. 

In any other profession that is the case. An actor doesn't go to auditions because their acting isn't any good. A singer doesn't wait to create a band because a record label didn't like their sound. A sportsperson doesn't try stop competing because the competition is too great they - persevere and then make a decision on whether they can take the strain.

I say this ethos should be a part of the literary world


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## chopper

no, i think we do understand that point: Chrons members like Mark Robson and Stephen Sweeney (aka scarfy) have or are self-published; they know exactly how it differs to "mainstream" publishing, and they are ready to let anybody who asks know what the potential pitfalls are, as well as the potential benefits. you only get one chance to hook your audience - you _have_ to get it right first time.

personally i would love to be able to devote the time and effort to self-publishing, but i don't have that luxury *. even if i did, however, i'd be doing exactly as gary suggests above: make your manuscript as perfect as any that you see on the shelves at Waterstones. line-edit it to within an inch of its life. then get somebody else to do the same. if you don't want to be seen as "second-class", then you have to really raise your game - technically and professionally as well as in commitment and passion. That's what i believe Judge is saying.



* i threw together a collection of short stories and wanged it thru Lulu, confident in my own ability to proof-read and typeset. sadly, i managed to miss justifying an entire story, small capitalising a header, and several other typos. duh: beginner.


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## HareBrain

LloB1 said:


> To suggest that most self published authors dont take pride in their work is to suggest that they dont have much passion or commitment to the subject they are writing about or the prose and i believe that is wrong.


 
"Taking pride in" doesn't mean "being proud of". Maybe that wasn't what you meant, but it's pertinent anyway because it's very difficult for a writer, especially an inexperienced one, to see their work as others will see it. Sometimes I've read stuff I've put away and forgotten about for years, and with that perspective I can see some of it was good and some of it was cack - but at the time I wouldn't have known which was which. To write well you need to be able to tear your own stuff apart before other people do, but that can only happen after you've had others tear it apart, such as in a writers' group. Otherwise there's a danger that you'll be more pleased with it than it deserves. 



> I myself believe in the concept that in order to get anything in this life and world you cant expect others to open doors and give you a chance to shine because there are too many variables involved. You have to make a way for yourself you have to shout and wave your hands louder than the thousands around you and hope someone will hear your cry, and sometimes in the end you will get the most respect because people will see that you tried independantly and didnt wait to be served.


 
This will get you respect, it might even convince some people to buy the book, but it won't get them to read past page 1 - to do that the writing has to be special.

Self-belief, passion and commitment are great assets for promoting your stuff, and for seeing you through the project, but you also need to be very tough on yourself to get the writing up to scratch. This is where a lot of self-published authors (most that I've read, but not all) fall down.


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## chopper

exactly.

and HB is correct in identifying the Writers Group - if you're intent on operating on your own, outside the publishing industry, then the help and criticism of your peers is _even more_ important.


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## Gary Compton

LloB1 said:


> And above all i would not spend too much time on this website as it can be demoralising when most of the users, maybe unintentionally, take qoutes from your posts and try to quash your dreams. That is what you dont need at this time. The traditionalist mentality of how the publishing industry should work is too prevalent on this site. So only use this site with caution.
> 
> Good luck


 
Llob1 you're in trouble mate. I can hear the Goblin Princess taking of her wings, rolling up her sleeves and getting the rolling pin out of the draw.

Personally I think you deserve a bollicking for you comments.

I have been hanging around here for a while and you couldnt wish to meet a better bunch of people. One thing though they wont blow smoke up your arse! If you want to be proffessional self publisher you've got to, as Chopper says be better than published authors and edit and re-edit, write and re-write at least 3-4 times.

You've also got to have skin thicker than a hippopotamus’s scrotum. I have had my work critiqued here a few times and edited by John Jarrold 3 times and you've got to be ready for criticism, even if your work was perfect it will still receive criticism - publishing is subjective.

Mercs has had some good advice here, I think you owe SFF Chrons members an apology


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## The Judge

LloB1 said:


> In any other profession that is the case. An actor doesn't go to auditions because their acting isn't any good. A singer doesn't wait to create a band because a record label didn't like their sound. A sportsperson doesn't try stop competing because the competition is too great they - persevere and then make a decision on whether they can take the strain.



With respect, your logic is completely adrift.

A crap actor can go to audition after audition - but he will never get a job if he is crap.  A crap singer might form a band but where will they play outside of his dad's garage?  A crap athlete won't get anywhere.

The auditioning etc analogy is pertinent to the aspiring author submitting his work to agents and being rejected and rejected until he learns how to write something which is good enough to be accepted.  This is where perseverance comes in.  This is where determination and courage and passion and commitment come in.  This is the traditional route, which you seem to feel is wrong.

A crap author who goes the self-publishing route is not auditioning for a part, or playing in a garage, or coming last in the 100m heats yet again.  He is announcing he is playing Lear, hiring a big hall, advertising everywhere and then getting narked when people say he can't speak the verse, can't remember his lines, and generally can't act his way out of a paper bag.  If a person wants to waste his money doing this, then that is his decision.  But for him to imagine that his acting is on a par with those who have trained and auditioned and learned the hard way is self-delusional at best.  

And you say that _'They may not get it write the first time but they can work on it.'_  Why should he deserve a second chance?  If I have been misled by slick advertising to see a crap actor play Lear, I'm damned if I'm handing over good money to see him play Macbeth the following year, on the basis that he's 'worked on it'.  He should have 'worked on it' beforehand.  He should have joined an Amateur Dramatic Society; he should have gone to workshops; he should have listened to people. By being so damnably arrogant about his non-existent talent he has damaged his future prospects -- and those of every other person seeking to prove himself by going the same route.  

J


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## Teresa Edgerton

gary compton said:


> Then the publisher will take a large chunk and eventually the author gets a royalty of around 60p after his advance is paid back. (Teresa and the others may know better than me how much it is exactly)



I don't know what kind of contracts authors typically get in other countries, but here authors usually get about 8% of _the cover price_ on mass market paperbacks, maybe 10-15% on trade paper  (My books have never been published in hardcover, so I never remember the -- nonexistent in my case -- royalties on that).  So, about 70¢ for the mass market, and $1.50 and up for the trade paperback.   Not a lot, but the volume of sales is usually so much greater for the traditionally published author, and of course the author hasn't invested a cent in publishing the book, and doesn't _need_ to spend anything on marketing, promotion, etc.  (Although some may _choose_ to do so, and it often does raise their sales numbers.)  Since the average self-published book sells 100 copies, and those that sell significantly more have an author behind them who is tirelessly promoting (carfare alone is going to take a chunk out of what he or she makes), it really is a much better deal for the traditionally published author.  Which is why successful self-published authors (or author publishers if you prefer) do not turn up their noses at offers made to them by traditional publishers -- quite the contrary, they are very happy to make the transition.

There are, of course, other, better reasons, to choose self-publishing than the desire to get rich. 


The argument that there is plenty of drek put out by traditional bookstores does not really hold water, since even the very worst of such books tend to be better than the vast, vast majority of self-published books.  (How many self-published books have I read before making this statement?  A handful.  But I have read many, many excerpts -- which we may assume are passages the books the authors themselves consider to be among their best-written -- that have been so bad that it is a trial to read more than a few paragraphs.)   It is not snobbery to say so, because most of the people who long to become published writers (_whichever_ route they decide to pursue) are woefully, woefully bad.*  In self-publishing, there is no mechanism in place for weeding out the most wretched of these; in traditional publishing, there is.

So, this is the company in which the self-published writer chooses to place him or herself, and these are the associations he or she must work particularly hard to overcome.  This is the reality, not some myth perpetrated by some snobbish elite.



			
				Frontierzone said:
			
		

> For a large list of self published authors for the snobs to ponder, here goes:



These lists are incredibly deceptive.  I would even say shamefully deceptive on the part of those who originate them (usually companies trying to interest writers in purchasing their services), although I assume that those like yourself who go on to perpetuate them do so in good faith.  Most of the writers on these lists were self-publishing their books so long ago, mentioning them in a discussion like this one is irrelevant, since their circumstances were in no way similar to that of the self (or even traditionally) published writer today.  In those days, it was not so easy and cheap for anyone with some ink and paper (or a stylus and wax tablet) to expose his or her work to the world.  The very difficulty and expense of self-publishing served to weed out some of the laziest and most self-deceived.  Also, while some of these writers self-published at one point, it is not always true that their best, most enduring, or most successful works were published that way.  Just because someone self-published at some point does not mean that they owe their fame and success to their self-published books.  Sometimes, these were books so bad they could not even get them published elsewhere even though the writers were already successful writers.

As for snobbery, I get very, very tired of being tarred with this brush because my books have been traditionally published. I have met many, many self-published authors whose attitudes are supremely condescending toward authors who have chosen the traditional route, simply _because_ they have been published in that way.  This attitude of "I'm going to look down on you because I imagine that you look down on me"  that some self-published writers have really comes across as a kind of over-compensation for their own self-doubts.  People who have confidence in their own work (Terry Goodkind notwithstanding) do not usually feel the need to make themselves look good by criticizing others.  There is such a thing as professional courtesy.  Those who wish to be regarded as professionals might try using it.



*Actually, a bit of an understatement.  Things so bad that it would beggar belief are submitted to and rejected by agents and publishing houses, and unfortunately there is nothing to stop the authors of these from subsequently self-publishing.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy

The point about the company you choose, or are seen to be choosing is important. I'm committed to being published the traditional way (more or less - I have plans for a self-published group anthology of Indian weird writers but that's a different matter). This means that in 4 years of striving, I've notched up only a handful of publishing credits. One of these was in a book that also featured stories by the three best known spec-fic writers in India. I can, if I want to, lay claim to being a minnow in the small pool where they are leviathans. This doesn't really boost my ego a lot but it does serve as a base level from which I can proceed to attempt further inroads (although I will not take my editor's suggestions regarding 'a sparkly series for girls').

ETA: Cripes. That's actually *7 *years of striving. I am a very slow starter.


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## Teresa Edgerton

Oh, and in response to that list of self-published writers which is often brought out to shine some borrowed glory on more recently self-published writers: 

The company currently publishing my own books is the same one, under a slightly different name, that published -- OK, pirated -- some of Dickens's works back in the 19th century, and my former publisher was the first to publish Tolkien in the US -- neatly avoiding the need to ask his permission because of a loophole in the international copyright agreements at the time.  How is _that_ for adding a romantic tinge of outlaw chic to my resumé?

I think all this is very cool -- sort of like finding out that your writing desk is the genuine article on which Shakespeare bruised his hip while visiting a friend 400 years ago -- but I do not think that it places me on a level with either Dickens or Tolkien.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy

You're a goblin princess with a rogue publisher.


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