# Kiev, Kyev, Kif.  WTF?



## Alex The G and T (Feb 26, 2022)

American newscasters have been driving me nuts, experimenting with new ways to spell and pronounce the name of the Capital City of Ukraine.

It bothered me so much that I went a-googling.

Well, it's not so complicated.  It turns out that Not Everyone speaks in a language derived from Latin; or spells in arabic characters.  But we knew that.  Or should have.

Curiously, my mother's mother's family fled "The Ukraine" (being a region and not a named country at the time) during the Russian Revolution, when Granny was a child.  She told me Baba Yaga Stories, as a child; but never talked about the language at all.

But I digress.  I found several videos discussing the pronunciation of ... that City Name...  This one, I thought was the best:


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## Droflet (Feb 26, 2022)

It will always be Kiev to me. So there.


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## Alex The G and T (Feb 26, 2022)

Droflet said:


> It will always be Kiev to me. So there.


That's where I've been for the last hundred years: Kiev, Kee-ev. Let it be.

I've been fine with Munich being Münchin and Cologne being Köln and Woostershure sauce; but this Kiev business sounds cooler, when she says it.


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## worldofmutes (Feb 26, 2022)

Waiting for someone to unironically mispronounce it as ‘queef’


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## hitmouse (Feb 26, 2022)

I have always said Kiev, which is similar to the Russian pronounciation.
Turns out the Ukranian pronounciation is more like Kyeev, and the British media, at least, have decided to use that. They switched en masse a couple of weeks ago.


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## Pyan (Feb 26, 2022)

I suspect that a lot of people of my generation automatically associate it with Chicken...

Which, apparently, was one of the reasons for Turkey officially changing to Türkiye - some have said the change is part of an effort to “distance the country’s links to the bird”, reported the Daily Mail, as well as the “dictionary definition of ‘something that fails badly’”.


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## Swank (Feb 26, 2022)

I fear for the Flems.


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## Montero (Feb 26, 2022)

Pyan said:


> I suspect that a lot of people of my generation automatically associate it with Chicken...


Preceded by prawn cocktail, and followed by black forest gateaux - probably with foaming cream from a can. And I seem to remember chicken kiev has nothing to do with kiev - I went to look it up and muddled is the least of it. It probably involved French chefs in Russia but other than that.


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## HareBrain (Feb 26, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Turns out the Ukranian pronounciation is more like Kyeev, and the British media, at least, have decided to use that.


Apart from Nick Robinson on Radio 4's _Today_, who has decided unilaterally on the flat, inflectionless "Keve", which drives me nuts as it sounds so crap.



Pyan said:


> Which, apparently, was one of the reasons for Turkey officially changing to Türkiye - some have said the change is part of an effort to “distance the country’s links to the bird”, reported the Daily Mail


This just made me wonder why the bird is called that. It's quite interesting, and at the same time dispiriting (because really, who would mistake one for a guinea fowl?)









						How Did Thanksgiving 'Turkey' Get its Name?
					

The U.S. Thanksgiving holiday is symbolized by its traditional food, a large bird we call a turkey. But turkey is certainly not from Turkey. In fact, its English name is based on one big mistake.




					learningenglish.voanews.com


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## Matteo (Feb 26, 2022)

That's all fine, but does that mean that all place names will henceforth be pronounced the way they are in the native language?


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## Harpo (Feb 26, 2022)




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## HareBrain (Feb 26, 2022)

Matteo said:


> That's all fine, but does that mean that all place names will henceforth be pronounced the way they are in the native language?


And which regional accent?

And for Antarctica, what if the different species of penguins use different names?


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## Pyan (Feb 26, 2022)

Matteo said:


> That's all fine, but does that mean that all place names will henceforth be pronounced the way they are in the native language?


I hope not - I think it would take a while for me to get used to living in Hamtun, Hamtunscīr...


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## worldofmutes (Feb 26, 2022)

Matteo said:


> That's all fine, but does that mean that all place names will henceforth be pronounced the way they are in the native language?


God I hope so


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## Elckerlyc (Feb 26, 2022)

HareBrain said:


> And which regional accent?
> 
> And for Antarctica, what if the different species of penguins use different names?


Well, obviously you use the name the species that is momentarily most dominant is calling themselves. That could be a different species next season though, depending on the appetite and preferences of the local population of sea lions.


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## Astro Pen (Feb 26, 2022)

I_ love _accents and the various name permutations of people and cities.

Whenever I speak to friends from Belfast they pronounce London as "Lunton" with a soft T. 
I'm sure @Jo Zebedee can enlighten me on this.

Here in Wales we call it Llundain. This contains the double L sound which The English seem unable to master. Leading my English friends who moved here to talk of non existent places like "Clanethly" when they mean Llanelli.

I also remember a museum guide in the Dordogne proudly showing us a "Sonjay" treadle sewing machine.  A perfectly rational French pronunciation of Singer.


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## Matteo (Feb 26, 2022)

Astro Pen said:


> Leading my English friends who moved here to talk of non existent places like "Clanethly" when they mean Llanelli.


Yes!  Although when I lived in Newport, I had a colleague who always refered to Maesglas as "Mays-gluss" - and he was _local_ from Henllys (or "Ent-liss" as he called it) .

But it reminds me that several years ago I met up with with a group of friends, and others I'd not before, of varying nationalities one of whom was a young Spanish woman. We got talking about various things and got into the topic of music and the following exchange took place:

Her: Oh I really like Oodoss.
Me: Oodoss?  Never heard of them.
Her: Eh?  You've never heard of Oodoss?  Joder!  They're so famous! How is it you have never heard of Oodoss?
Me: Sorry.
Her: You know...Oodoss, Oodoss!
Me: [penny finally dropping] Oh, you mean...


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## Venusian Broon (Feb 26, 2022)

Matteo said:


> That's all fine, but does that mean that all place names will henceforth be pronounced the way they are in the native language?


Absolutely, I hear US citizens calling Edinburgh wrong - Edin_burg _and not the correct Edin_burra - _all time_. _

On a more serious note I think we should respect every peoples language as best we can.


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## Pyan (Feb 26, 2022)

And as I once heard a tourist say: "How far is it to Car-lizzle?"


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## worldofmutes (Feb 26, 2022)

Venusian Broon said:


> Absolutely, I hear US citizens calling Edinburgh wrong - Edin_burg _and not the correct Edin_burra - _all time_. _
> 
> On a more serious note I think we should respect every peoples language as best we can.


I often say _Garage _with an English accent. Among other words not off the top of my head. Admittedly, I was pronouncing it _Edinburrough. _

Now that I know how, for me it’s Kyiv- with that glottal stop and all. It’s more natural to me, since I picked up Georgian.


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## hitmouse (Feb 26, 2022)

Matteo said:


> Yes!  Although when I lived in Newport, I had a colleague who always refered to Maesglas as "Mays-gluss" - and he was _local_ from Henllys (or "Ent-liss" as he called it) .
> 
> But it reminds me that several years ago I met up with with a group of friends, and others I'd not before, of varying nationalities one of whom was a young Spanish woman. We got talking about various things and got into the topic of music and the following exchange took place:
> 
> ...


And just near Newport, Gwent is Bryn Mawr, pronounced differently from the US University of the same spelling


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## Venusian Broon (Feb 26, 2022)

Pyan said:


> And as I once heard a tourist say: "How far is it to Car-lizzle?"


Let's not get started on the Scottish name Dalziel. You've either heard how it's actually pronounced or you haven't. (If you haven't the 'alzi' is silent.  )


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## Foxbat (Feb 26, 2022)

I’ve always believed that we should pronounce a name or a place that is in accordance with the wishes of those most directly involved..eg…pronounce the city the way the residents of that city wish it to be pronounced. It’s also  why I pronounce Ralph Fiennes as Rayf (which is, apparently, the welsh pronounciation).


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## Harpo (Feb 26, 2022)

When I moved to my current address here in the north of Lewis, I heard the name of the place pronounced several different ways, by various locals. Furthermore, it’s written as one word everywhere except on the sign by the bus stop, where it’s three words


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## Justin Swanton (Feb 26, 2022)

Astro Pen said:


> I_ love _accents and the various name permutations of people and cities.
> 
> Whenever I speak to friends from Belfast they pronounce London as "Lunton" with a soft T.
> I'm sure @Jo Zebedee can enlighten me on this.
> ...


I can handle the Welsh 'll' as it is pretty much the Zulu 'hl' as in Umhlanga. But good luck trying to pronounce Zulu place names with one of the clicks: 'Ixopo' is *not *pronounced 'iks-opo', and the Xhosa tribe is not 'kosa' or 'ex-hosa'. There is no way of phonetically spelling the clicks.


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## Danny McG (Feb 26, 2022)

Matteo said:


> Her: You know...Oodoss, Oodoss!
> Me: [penny finally dropping] Oh, you mean


Nope!
I don't get it.


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## Elckerlyc (Feb 26, 2022)

Me neither! I'm trying to think as someone from Spain trying to speak English, but am failing miserably. Oodoss, Oodoss...?


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## Valtharius (Feb 26, 2022)

This gets really complicated in the US. There's a town in Missouri called New Madrid, which gives its name to the very important New Madrid Fault Line. The accepted local pronunciation is 'ma-drid, emphasis on the first syllable. Not muh-'drid. Neither of which bear any resemblance of course to mah-'threeth as the Spaniards say.
New Madrid, Missouri is also 42 miles from Kay-row, Illinois.


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## Valtharius (Feb 26, 2022)

Matteo said:


> Yes!  Although when I lived in Newport, I had a colleague who always refered to Maesglas as "Mays-gluss" - and he was _local_ from Henllys (or "Ent-liss" as he called it) .
> 
> But it reminds me that several years ago I met up with with a group of friends, and others I'd not before, of varying nationalities one of whom was a young Spanish woman. We got talking about various things and got into the topic of music and the following exchange took place:
> 
> ...


Was she referring to Bono's band?


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## worldofmutes (Feb 26, 2022)

Valtharius said:


> This gets really complicated in the US. There's a town in Missouri called New Madrid, which gives its name to the very important New Madrid Fault Line. The accepted local pronunciation is 'ma-drid, emphasis on the second syllable. Not muh-'drid. Neither of which bear any resemblance of course to mah-'threeth as the Spaniards say.
> New Madrid, Missouri is also 42 miles from Kay-row, Illinois.


I always think of the Icelandic ð whenever I think of Castilian Spanish… haha. Speaking of which, today I’m going to Los Robertos (a popular fast food chain in Arizona/NM) to pick up some tacos and a burrito. I’ll be sure to say “Muchath Grathiath! Buenoth Diath!”


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## Valtharius (Feb 26, 2022)

worldofmutes said:


> I always think of the Icelandic ð whenever I think of Castilian Spanish… haha. Speaking of which, today I’m going to Los Robertos (a popular fast food chain in Arizona/NM) to pick up some tacos and a burrito. I’ll be sure to say “Muchath Grathiath! Buenoth Diath!”


Would not be accurate except in very specific parts of Andalucía.


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## HareBrain (Feb 26, 2022)

Elckerlyc said:


> Me neither! I'm trying to think as someone from Spain trying to speak English, but am failing miserably. Oodoss, Oodoss...?


She's not speaking English. What might "doss" mean?


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## Swank (Feb 26, 2022)

HareBrain said:


> She's not speaking English. What might "doss" mean?


"Hooters, Hooters." They are looking for the excellent restaurant chain. Probably to enjoy some "chowder".


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## Jo Zebedee (Feb 26, 2022)

Astro Pen said:


> I_ love _accents and the various name permutations of people and cities.
> 
> Whenever I speak to friends from Belfast they pronounce London as "Lunton" with a soft T.
> I'm sure @Jo Zebedee can enlighten me on this.
> ...


My nearest approximation to saying it in the Belfast accent - i‘ve a bit of a posh accent and I’m also from about 15 miles from the city so a bit more rural but it’s kind of like this.
we have sone mad place names here - Magherafelt is Mach-er-a-felt where as Maghera is Ma-ha-ra. And Let’s not start on Augher and Clougher (gh is pronounced in a gutteral way)


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## Guttersnipe (Feb 26, 2022)

Actually, Germany is pronounced "doitch-lont."

What's next? Pari?


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## Swank (Feb 27, 2022)

Espain.


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## Alex The G and T (Feb 27, 2022)

Espain?  I thought it was España.

And why can't we just leave our anglicized pronunciations comfortably, as we've been accustomed to them, for decades?

I suspect a plague of pretentiousness flooding our newscasters.  You know, the kind of folks who think that over-pronouncing foreign words, makes them sound more sophisticated.

A nice idea, to try to sound more cosmopolitan (and incluuusive) in world-view; but they do tend to try too hard.  It becomes so self-consciously forced that the effect comes off as hopelessly affected.

My mother is a classic case.  She actually is rather a cosmopolitan globe trotter. She lived and worked on Loondohn for some years, then in Meheeeco Ceetee for some more years.  She traveled the world and finally decided to buy land and live in Chee-layee, for fifteen years.

She actually does speak Spanish pretty well; but when she  ventures to pronounce "Nicaragua" it sounds like a cat hacking up a hair-ball.

I'm thinking, "Give it a rest Ma.  We all know where you've been.  Somehow, I think that when a native Nicaraguan pronounces the name of their country, it rolls off the tongue a little more smoothly than that."


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## Foxbat (Feb 27, 2022)

So, is it Lez Manz or Ley Mon for Les Mans?


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## Harpo (Feb 27, 2022)

I’ve been there, the post office sign goes around a corner


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## Swank (Feb 27, 2022)

Foxbat said:


> So, is it Lez Manz or Ley Mon for Les Mans?


"Lemons."


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## Harpo (Feb 27, 2022)

Swank said:


> "Lemons."


There is a 24-hour Lemons car race


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## Matteo (Feb 27, 2022)

Sorry...

"Oodoss".

"Oo" as in the Spanish pronunciation of "U", and "doss" as in "dos" - the Spanish for "two".


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## nixie (Feb 27, 2022)

Matteo said:


> Sorry...
> 
> "Oodoss".
> 
> "Oo" as in the Spanish pronunciation of "U", and "doss" as in "dos" - the Spanish for "two".


Thanks I couldn't work it out.


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## Matteo (Feb 27, 2022)

Don't feel too bad. I was lost as well.  She was looking at me incredulously saying "Oodoss, Oodoss" and I was thinking _who the hell are Oodoss?_


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## sknox (Feb 27, 2022)

The subject line threw me. Three pages worth of thread and I still don't see how to pronounce wtf.
<g>


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## Astro Pen (Feb 27, 2022)

Oh No! On the side of the Beemer in @Harpo s post It's - Nyan Cat  (pronounce that) 
Have an ear worm


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## Harpo (Feb 27, 2022)

sknox said:


> The subject line threw me. Three pages worth of thread and I still don't see how to pronounce wtf.
> <g>


When’s day, fur’s day, fry day.


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## AnyaKimlin (Feb 27, 2022)

I think when you live in a part of the UK that uses three different languages (English, Gaelic and Doric dialect of Scots) it's no big deal to hear different pronunciations of place names. 

There are usually two or three ways to say a place name and then there is the pronunciation the BBC uses which is only ever correct if Ken Bruce is involved.


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## hitmouse (Feb 27, 2022)

AnyaKimlin said:


> I think when you live in a part of the UK that uses three different languages (English, Gaelic and Doric dialect of Scots) it's no big deal to hear different pronunciations of place names.
> 
> There are usually two or three ways to say a place name and then there is the pronunciation the BBC uses which is only ever correct if Ken Bruce is involved.


Wales is fun. Different Welsh and English words for many places, used respectively in Welsh and English language media. 

There was a notorious murder in Machynlleth a few years ago, and it was in the national media for weeks, which caused some amusing workarounds as it was unpronounceable for some of the TV presenters.


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## Iwroteathing (Mar 8, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Wales is fun. Different Welsh and English words for many places, used respectively in Welsh and English language media.
> 
> There was a notorious murder in Machynlleth a few years ago, and it was in the national media for weeks, which caused some amusing workarounds as it was unpronounceable for some of the TV presenters.



Welsh villages names are the ultimate test for "are you local?". Once you have Machynlleth sorted (just call it Machy), how about trying the nearby village of Dylife. 

Dye-life?

No, actually. It's more like... De-leafer! 

But this isn't exclusive to the Welsh. Hop across the border to England, they're equally as guilty. There's a Norfolk seaside town called Happisburgh. Cute name! But the "PP"s are silent, apparently. And some other letters.

So it sounds more like... Hays-ber. 

Best one I've had is someone asking directions for "Looga-barooga".

"It's in the East Midlands, near Leicester"



"Loughborough?"


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## Astro Pen (Mar 8, 2022)

A tip to make the elusive welsh LL sound.
1 Place the tip of your tongue on the front teeth to make a long 'Th' sound.
2 Whilst doing that slide your tongue-tip  a few teeth to the right until the air moves round the side of the tongue
3 Make that sound then add the rest of the word  LL -an,  Llan
You'll be pronouncing Llanelli like a local before you know it.


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## AnyaKimlin (Mar 8, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Wales is fun. Different Welsh and English words for many places, used respectively in Welsh and English language media.
> 
> There was a notorious murder in Machynlleth a few years ago, and it was in the national media for weeks, which caused some amusing workarounds as it was unpronounceable for some of the TV presenters.



I came up with a much more simple example of someone who definitely isn't local yesterday on the bus.

We passed a factory and they were on the phone telling someone they were going past the wood and paper factory.

Everyone local knows that is the cloud factory!


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## Vladd67 (Mar 8, 2022)

AnyaKimlin said:


> I came up with a much more simple example of someone who definitely isn't local yesterday on the bus.
> 
> We passed a factory and they were on the phone telling someone they were going past the wood and paper factory.
> 
> Everyone local knows that is the cloud factory!


We have a food processing plant near us that produces vapour from its chimneys, my kids call that the cloud factory.


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## Pyan (Mar 8, 2022)

When I was young, there used to be a factory that we passed driving to see my grandparents in Barrow. It made the dye that used to be put in 'Dolly Blue', an additive you put in your washing to make whites look whiter. The river below it, and the rocks along the shore were all bright blue, and there were huge rafts of blue foam in the pools (well before current pollution laws!). We always called it the 'Blue Factory' and my parents used to tell us that it was the factory that made the special blue water in the sea, as ordinary water was clear....


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## Foxbat (Mar 8, 2022)

I once heard pneumatically operated valves referred to as ‘choo-choo’ valves. When I asked why I was told that when they opened, they went ‘choo’ and when they closed, they made the same sound. Made perfect sense after that


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