# Aliens, The Ancient World and The Unexplainable...



## Frost

What do you guys think about Aliens? Do they Exist? or are Aliens just a load of nonsense?  HAve a look at these links and see what you think....they are quite interesting to say the least.

Pedro
Reptilian
Headgear
Japanese Dogu ( One of my Favourites )
Races
Bye ( Also a good one )


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## aftermath

Well's that's pretty crazy stuff there (mind you the first link didn't work)

I dont believe in aliens as an advance race, but it's impossible not to believe in them.

There is, therprectially, and unlimited amount of space, which means there are an infinite number of planets out there that are like earth or similar enought to have some form of life evolve on it. There also may be carbon based speices out there. 

so, yes i believe in aliens, just not the kind that travel in UFO's


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## Frost

Here is the fixed link for Pedro  ( had a space at the end of the link - thats why it didn't work )


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## aftermath

That one was pretty neatt too. And sicne you asked us what we think, we is it that you think about aliens?

do you believe that they are out there or it is all a big hoax?


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## Frost

I like to believe there are other lifeforms are out there....but I don't think we will ever meet any.


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## Princess Ivy

I hope there are others out there, but what always gets me, is that we are expecting them to be
a) more advanced than we are
b) like us in any way at all
c) driven by the same imperitives which drive us
d) give a damn about our puny and primitive little mud hole.


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## Maryjane

_In the begining there was huge ball of hotgasses and energy that spread all around in a ever outward growing cloud and in this cloud or premordail soup there was all of the elements to create everything that exists in the universe, even the elements for biological life or the elements to build DNA, the building blocks of life. All these little bits and pieces of mater and elements floating around in space eventually getting into a collision course with a meteor or a comet, said comets landed on said world where some had the right environment to support life. Hot gasses and energy began to cool and coeleque into solid mater. Some became hot balls of supper hot gasses and others became gass balls or balls of granite with soft hot cores. Now you take the newest of these planets. This planets produces life and and sometime later an inteligent species emerges from the premordial jungle and looks up at the stars. This class M star and it's planet would now probably lye somewhere near the edge of the universe. As this star and it's planet continued to age billions of years since the begining of their journy, so would have been the progression of evolution of the species. Where and what happened to the said inteligent life that could be billions of years older and certainly more evolved and advanced then we are. So much so they may be here in a type of energy form, just out of phaze with time and space by a microsecond, sort of like hiding in the membrane separating two dimentions. I bet they wouldn't be to interested in us except for maybe standig back now and again to watch if the fire ants will beat the soldier ants. OK, that's enough for me._


http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


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## Maryjane

_Gee that bugs me. I come up with something pretty neat and and ancsiously awaiting for coments and the thread dies???? Maybe I'm a thread killer or something I could have went into the scientific terminology if that's any better. I dummied it down so everyone could understand._


http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


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## aftermath

lol. it's an interesting idea, but i really don't think there would be an alien intelligent life form even near earth. I, of course could be wrong, but what are the chances of an alien race discovering earth? who says they didn't find another, more interesting planet that is closer to them with intelligent life? how do we know the race is more advance than us? How would they survive the journey here? It how many million light years to the cloeset planet that is believe to have the possiblity of supporting life? maybe a race of intelligent life forms know's of our existence, but still don't have the technology to make the journey. but like I said, i doubt there will be alien life here.


i just thought of something else to. maybe we are the aliens and when our ancestors landed here, killed of the race that was already here. but there equipment wouldn't here properly on this planet, due to magnetic disturbence. eheh? that could be it.hmmm...  lol


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## Maryjane

_Try this idea on for size, how about prehistoric homosapines not much more developed then an ape being genetically manipulated whith alien cells. We are chindren ot the stars the north Amarican naitives believe and the stars are the grandfathers._


http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


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## aftermath

I actually thought about that one for a second!  

i dont think that's possible either. Your DNA is very close to a chimps for example. If alien DNA was implanted in us, I'd imagine it would be noticable, becase it would probabley differ from the rest of the natural spieces on the planet. And they have also been able to trace our evolution from our 'ape state' to out curent status.  maybe the aliens used the DNA to alter the first mammals isntead of waiting for the spieces to evolve too much.


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## Maryjane

_As for that hypothetical planet with it's class M star traveling to near the edge of the univrse in the past few billion years since it started out would not mean that  the inligent species that evolved there would still be there. Learning to survive while traveling though space during all that time? What would they have evolved into? Maybe something that our minds cannot conceive. Or maybe many species spreading out all over the unniverse, an asimilation of the species and what would they look like. If they haven't made it here yet I bet they are aware of us by now. Inteligence species may be like grains of dust spread out all over the place in the universe. From the dust of the premordial soup of the big bang was whence we came It tell ya. Boy! I love doing this    _


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## aftermath

To evolve during space travel? that would take 100's of thousands of years. .. for humans any ways. it is possible, i suppose for the race to evolve during their travels if they had a large enough genepool on the ship that they reproduce while at the same time trying not to allow inbreeding. but also, they have genetic engineered themselves for travel across space. but it still take millions of years even traveling at the speed of light. And as far as im concerned, light speed is impossbile to achieve. The race would have to be pure engery, and if they were, who could engery think? no. i still don't think aliens were ever to earth , but they may be exploring other planets out there. setting up 'shop' so to say on other alien planets and mingling, creating new technolgy that will no day let the reach here. if they know were are here. if an alien race was to check every planet they thought to be able to support life, that take thousands of year in itself.  and how do we know they even consider earth habitable? maybe they jsut overlooked us and moved onto another planet. and they may not even pick up the radio signals emitting from earth. they may not have that technology. so the chances of us being detected is very very small . just like us, we are looking for planets that can support oxygen based lifeforms, when here on earth there are carbon based life forms.


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## Maryjane

_I had no problem finding this planet (((LOL))) _
_Took a left turn at Albequirki and ended up in Bugtussle, instead of Wasburn ever think of that one? _


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## aftermath

really? i thought they were the directions to venus... hmm... ill have to check my map


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## Maryjane

_In the world of imagination we'll say, what if their base camp was on Mars when Mars was more life supporting friendly and the earth was still just a hot steamy ball of granite. A life sustaining (wet) Mars with a thicker atmosphere and for millions of years this was their home and all that time they were observing and watching the development of life on earth. One day one of them says, "our species is dying out so why not let us leave a legacy of ourselves into this particular animal species, Lets do a little manipulating in their DNA structure with that of our species. What sets us apart and makes us unique from the rest of the animal kingdome on this planet is our brain_


http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


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## aftermath

I don't think there was life on mars except for maybe for single cell organisms and maybe a step higher than that when the planet had water. otherwise, you think this race on mars would have left some form of ruins behind, or one of the spieces on the planet would have evolved enough to live. And why didn't this race just move to earth? why did they just supposedly alter us. they would've left some sort of relic behind to lets us know of their existence. and if this 'advance' race did alter us, why didn't they come back and declare to the planet that they are basically our parents. This is starting to sound like the uplift series here. no, i doubt there was intelligent life on mars and any time throughout history.


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## TGirlPaula

That sounds a lot like the arrival of Superman on earth but on a much greater scale.


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## Maryjane

_For one thing after three million years, so scientists theorise was when Mars  (dried up) lets say our imaginary interstelar friends would either have gone extinct for what ever reason, a disintigration of the genetic pool well say or they just simply left. As for artifacts even if there were any after three million years they would be mostly obiterated by the scowering of the Martian desert wind. What if at some point rover spirit tumbled into a huge undergound cavern during it's exploration, and this cavern turnes out to be an artificial structure constructed out of the planets verry own solid granite. Would be interesting to find out the reaction from Nasa. If there is nothing discernably recognisable left intact above ground then if there were  subteranian structures they would still be there. Now wouldn't that be something. As for artifacts here on earth I think there are quite a few possibileties, like sturctures that were built so long ago it is hard to get an acurate reading as to how old they realy are but these structures are so formidable that there would have been no way men could have constructed them with the simple tools they had 10,000 or so years ago. Physosists and archiologists every day are discovering great mathematical and astrophysical values in these structures. Maybe these equations will lead to that mape you lost Aftermath. isn't it wonderfull to have an imagination? _




http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


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## aftermath

I really want my map back.... :< 

Shot that one down on me   
Yeah that blasted sand probably erdoe any structures that were left on he planet.  As to building on the earth, the only ones that I think think of are the pryamids and the other astrological (or so people believe, but I they are gateways created by the Druids in another world! MWHAHAHAHA    )

But anyways, you did explain why the race hasn't come back to annouce this to the world. If they were smart enough to genically alter us, then they would be smart enough to seek out our leaders to inform them and not land in some farmers crop. 

I would make this longer but i have classes

I really enjoy this thread


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## Maryjane

_Thanks Aftermath I am enjoying our thread. Einstein once said the potentialeties are infinite so who knows, it's just a mater of law of averages and if they did or did not take that left turn at Albequirki. Maybe some of them are still around, watching and observing the growth of their children. In the mean time stand by with your hat in hand, you just may need it when you kneel on one knee and make the grand welcome salute to our grandfathers when they land in Washington Square. For me if it was to realy happen it won't surprise me at all when they come a callin in Washington Square. If anything I would be in a very excited state. _


http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


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## aftermath

I'd ahve to agree. If an intelligent race actually did help us become what we are and are standing by to see if we evolve anymore than our current state, I'd be thrilled. To meet the race responible for existence as we know it. How would others react? I compare this to something in my life. A parent that left, and you one day finally meet. You may want to run up and embrace them or tear them to shreads for abandoning you. For example a war thorn populcae may want to have them killed for letting such a horrible thing to happen to  them when the race had the means to stop this. If there is a race there, I believe they will wait until the planet moves into a global peace. Because otherwise, their return to take their long lost childrem back under their wing may not go so well. .

I think we have come close to depleting this topic... can you think of a new one? I would really enjoy to continue this


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## Maryjane

_I agree with them not making themselves known until the human race has found a way to live in peace and be in harmony with the forces that be. The North Amarican natives called these forces, nature. Doesn't mater to me what it is you want to start a new thread. I'm pretty vercatile in allot of diferent things but scince and astrophysics are my burn. I am studying astro physics from my home. But I sometimes like to meld imagination with theoretical and factual science, factual science is way overated anyway. "Hey" "someone is always moving that star before I can get an accurate fix on it." After tweeking and adjusting the lense on the telescope and you home in on our ilusive star. You then discover that this star has been replicated many times. Circles within circles. Even the cave men drew these symbols of circles within circles, now where did they conceive the idea from. Wana chat about prehistoric ancient ruins or nanotechnolgy now there is a interesting new little piece of technolgy that may obsolete everything electronic and computers we have today and into a whole new era of technology. A wonderous new era where man stands proudly looking up at the grandfathers, peace, love, harmony, kindness and joy to all souls. Boy aint I a dreamer but I pray anyway. _



http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


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## aftermath

Im game for about anything. I'm not sure how well I can carry them , but i'll try. I never had any type of study in science, or really anything, so I'm making this all up as I go along. 

But whatever you want!


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## Maryjane

_Hey you would be surprised at just how much they use of actual scientific theories and terminology in science fiction. Scientificly based Imagination.   Especially in the Star Treck series. Even Einstein said that imagination was the mother of invention and that imagination goes light years farther then knowledge and logic. A warp drive engine for instant is just another name for antimater engins which has been a popular idea going in sci fi since I was a kid. Now they have actually come up with a plan through the use of nanotechnolgy to create micro black holes in a containerized unit and using the event horizon for power and propulssion. Within the field of event horison they calculate you would not only travel through space beyond the light speed barier but time as well.  Then there is those famous gell packs, containing living mater, bio mater, that produces the energy for the ships sensory and relay systems, like a person's nervous system . they talk about these in the series Voyager. They realy have living microbs that eat oil slicks and other such polutants and they do produce an electrical energy field like tiny electric eels. Now do you get what I mean by using an actual hypothetically and potentially plosible scientific theory in those sci fi movies. When I discovered this, it made the movies even more credible I thought._


http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


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## aftermath

well, thats neat
 

but i came up with a thought! MWHAHAHA! some people say we have souls and that when we die our souls leave our bodies. what if our souls were an alien that that matured inside of us, and when they ar ematured enough, we die and they leave our body to find there home in the stars. maybe thats why people worshiped the stars so much. their 'souls' longed for it.


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## Frost

Looking up at the stars on a clear night is one of the most beautiful sights on Eath.


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## Maryjane

_As good a theory as any other I have heard of Aftermath. The soul is the essance of awareness and being wether still in the host or after. There are many astrophysiical forces of energy at work out there that are so precicly synchronises with one another that they actually apear to be inteligent in nature and possibly they are in a way at least set up with certain paterns to do certain fiunctions that continue the cycle. When I first heard about cosmic strings was what realy shocked and awed me as to just how harmonicly tuned thei universe is. Our souls could be a part of these forces. The natives called themselves the star childdren and the stars the grandfathers and the earth the mother and the moon the grandmother and the sun the father. They speak of the first mother (giver of life in the Qabala) The North Amarican natives called the soul a spirit and spirits dwelled in many different levels in the afterlife and one could speak to them throught the prayer seremony in the smudging or the smoke from sweet grass that caried their prayers to the after life they believed. I also believe more that they projected their minds into the minds of animal forms not shape shift into one from what I have learned of the spirit ceremonies.To tell the truth no one realy knows with certainty what a soul is._




http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


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## Maryjane

_The stars on a clear night especially our very own milky way galaxy looks like swirls and eddies of mist as so do other galaxies. These mists are actually billions of stars and and cosmic dust, great dust clouds like the dust being blown ahead of a desert sand storm. cosmic clouds spiraling inward towards the event horizon of a massive black hole, the bright center of a galaxy. Move out of the univers and look back and I bet the entire univers itself would look like a gigantic spiral galaxy. Look around and away from our universe and you would most probably find that there are again as many pin points of light out there like you see in our night sky on a clear night. One could observe the infinite cycle of death and rebirth of univeres as well as galaxies happening everywhere. An infinity of constantly recycled and changing potentialeties in this realety or dimention as well as others. Eternity is full. In the Qabala they say that Aleph created Yod in his image, Aleph couldn't be in one place in a physical form or all else would cease to exist so he created Yod a nearly perfect replica of himsef and through the forces working within Yod. This way Aleph was able to share as one in Yod's own essance. Yod is the realety we live in and then you have the many forces of energy regulating all that is, like souls or spirits of energy They are the couriors, mesangers and maintance workers of the universe as well as being the eyes of Aleph. Everything is recycled nothing goes to waste. Dantie's inferno, Pergatory and heaven mentions many levels in each of those realms, could Dantie have been refering to diferent dimentions in time and space? Each level you go forward in you evolve to a better realety. Cosmic strings are like the harmonics and oscilations of a great orchestration of singing photonic angels filling the infinite firmament with harmony to all that is._



http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


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## TGirlPaula

It's interesting how the sum of everything equals zero.  Matter cannot be created or destroyed.  Same with dissipated energy.

A few weeks ago I read some articles in various newspapers about how big this universe is.  Some astronomers had located the very outer fringe of this universe.  They said that they saw the first matter to leave the "big bang."  All well and good but a mite shortsighted.

If this universe is still expanding, how can one tell?  Are the planets in our solar system growing further apart from one another?  Is that how we measure where the end of this universe? If the universe is still expanding why has the growth stopped here?

OK, so let's say that the article is correct in that astronomers saw the far edge of this universe and it's still travelling outward.  In what is it contained?  What is "over the edge?"  Is it this universe, Yod, speeding to fulfillment in Aleph?

Just a thought.

Paula


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## Maryjane

_Yes creation seeking to fill all that is, like water seeking to fill a sinking ship._


http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


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## Maryjane

_Did this thread die to? To bad it was a good topic. _
_I have done allot of research and reading in the field of astrophysics and archiology of ancient structures and other artifacts. Possible origins theoretically and about myths which I believe that in very myth there is a grain of truth in it's origine. At least something big enough to put down on a record where some time later stories and folklore is woven around that unusual event. Burried to near obscurity within a legend but still there if one looks carefully enough. How did some ideas in the ancient days make their way all around the world? Stuff like that and I believe that's what this post was fore. Science combined with your own imagination and your conclusion and the sharing of your own conclusion. Give it a shot, you don't get graded for a score or anything just some fun exploring different possibileties and potentialeties. See ya. I hope._


http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html







http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


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## aftermath

Hello again  sorry.. i havent had time of lately to write a good reply. 

Well, for this myth idea, there are quite a few common ones between different cultures. Some need say this means that the event may have actually happened. Others say aliens told them to all the cultures of hte world as they helped us evolve. I think the reason behind the similar myth's is because the cultures were all trying to explain how things worked. And it often broken down into the simplest idea. But there is the fact that some of these myths aren't simple and are every similar with other. But they can be explained by early trading between countries and cultures. It is believed that ppl from south america were the first to cross the atlantica ocean, 100's of years before columbus. This is thought because in anceint egypt, many of the mummies have tobacco(if i recall correctly) emtombed with them. At that time period, the only place to find tobacco was south america.... so, it proves that there was trading between cultures a hell of a lot sooner then ppl orginally thought, and that could explain why the myths are you similar. It all could have started with one crazy guy spinning tales about how thigns were created and ppl liked the idea. 'aliens' from another country come to trade, hear the myth, get home with it slightly changed and you know how the cycle goes.


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## Maryjane

_Ya I do. Like I trip on the sidewalk and by the time it gets to the other end of town by way of telephonitis I was drunk and got picked up stagering on the street and fighting with the cops don't ya know. People love telling stories and embelish it to get more entertainment out of it and that hasn't changed in the past thousands of years excpet they didn't have any telephones back then but the gossip got passed around quite well from one farm pasture ot another between viligaes imbeleshing the story even more in the process of course. Something big would create an even biger fable. But it's amazing to find what is at the core sometimes. There is no definitive answers to the othentisit to most myths they may be just that but some have a clear indication of something big having transpired. Even many artifacts have been found that are supposed to be indicative of what is told in the myths. It's what had been observed at the begining that left such an impression in peoples minds but probably get mured through time by the reteling of natural and not so natural phenomena's. Like the symbolism used in the bibble the thing is to do a little detective work breaking it down into their different components before you are able to asses what could have been. A shepard sees a great ball of fire in the sky and calls it a fiery chariot. North Amarican natives talked about thunderbirds, Large birds that made sounds like thunder that shook the ground. And Hang gliders in India back some 3000 years ago. What of the beasts with many eyes they talk about in Revelations. When I saw a Startreck starship sitting iddly in space one night while watching TV all the little windows in the starship reminded me of the beasts with many eyes in the bibble. Will our last confrontation be with huge starships, man declaring war with the heavens. Either a star ship or a real beast with many eyes I don't think one would want to mess with one either way if you can help it. And the description of Babylone sounds verry much like a very large space station doing trade with the kings of the earth. By this time earth has been so decimated by the pluages and what not that the people are totally dependant on the harlot that is the queen of the station. Allot of fantasy in what I said, but what if? _


http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


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## aftermath

Ever hear of the chariot of the gods by erich vondakien, but it takes a bunch of ancient myths and explains them. He also explains parts of the bible, and different structures and natural land formations arcoss the world. I believe it was written in the 70's or 80's. It's pretty good. I'd suggest looking into.


As for the bible, I'm not going to start with that.


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## Maryjane

_I know Erik Vondakien, he came out with several books in the seventies and a couple of comentaries on TV in the early 80's. Not sure but I heard he had to back out of what he was doing for a while because of a threatened twentieth century witch burning. Stepped on to many good christians toes I guess. But he did bring forward allot of good possibileties, he just laked solid or tangible proof.  Solid tangible proof in science is about as elusive as trying to catch invisible butter flies with a holly net. I like to stick with what Einsteins said, imagination goes exponetially further then fact and knowledge, most inventions were born out of imagination. There is no real solid tangibilety to the elements in this realety, these energy and mass particles are in constant motion or in a constant flux or change, from subatomic particles to massive in size. Mass is still made up of trillions of compacted submicroscopic particles. We think we have all the moves on the chess board all figured out till someone moves one of the pieces when your not watching then you're whole prior stratogy has to be changed to acomodate this new combination in the new layout of  the individual components. See how a researcher can get headaches?  Like more holes in the bottom of your canoe then your fingers and toes can cover. Many new elements discovered recently can't even be detected by our most sofisticated aparatus. The only indication that such an anomely is out there is by the displacement of normal space. You can see the track left behind but not the critter that made them. Some of these energies if they have a powerfull enough gravitational field they can even displace time as well as space. Like cosmic strings we know of their presance and how they affect the universe but can't actually observe one, they are like tiny streams of energy or oscilations in the harmonics of the fabric of space itself. Like electro magnetic waves around the earth will terminate or start at the polls and even follow certain paterns on it's journy around the globe so are the cosmic string to black holes. I had already typed all this out once and clicked the wrong button and lost it all. I will beat myself over the head with a limp sucker fish If I do that again.  I personally believe that science is a progressive thing like evolution of the species. How long does one evolve before you reach the final product, same with science._


http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


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## TGirlPaula

The more we see the more there is to see.

Today I read an article about what it is that binds the nucleus of an atom together.

First we were told that the nucleus contained only protons, neutrons, and electrons.  Now we find so much more in there.

No one has ever seen a neutrino but evidence of its existence has been seen, the track it makes when it hits a deuterium molecule in Antarctic ice.

We ain't seen nothin' yet!

Paula


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## Maryjane

_Here is the article. Interesting._


By DENNIS OVERBYE 





Three Americans who helped describe the force that binds
together the atomic nucleus were named winners of the Nobel
Prize in Physics yesterday. They are Dr. David J. Gross of
the Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics at the
University of California at Santa Barbara; Dr. Frank
Wilczek of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology; and
Dr. H. David Politzer of the California Institute of
Technology. 

In two papers published in 1973, one by Drd. Gross and
Wilczek and the other by Dr. Politzer, they explained why
quarks, the theoretical constituents of the neutrons and
protons that make up the nucleus, could never be seen apart
from one another. Their work paved the way for a theory
known by the fanciful-sounding name quantum chromodynamics,
part of a suite of theories known as the Standard Model
that explains all the forces of nature except gravity. It
also raised hopes that physicists might yet find a single
unified theory of nature. They will each get a third of the
$1.3 million prize. 

The award had long been anticipated by the scientific
community. Dr. Lawrence M. Krauss, an astrophysicist at
Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, said it was
long overdue, adding, "How often do you get to explain one
of the four fundamental forces of nature?" 

In a press conference at M.I.T., Dr. Wilczek said the award
was welcome recognition for the endeavor of trying to
understand nature. "It is one of the real gems of our
culture," he said, "that we can understand nature in this
way and that you find beautiful things." 

The award harks back to what now seems like a golden age of
particle physics that lasted from the end of World War II
to the 1980's. In a spurt of feverish activity at particle
accelerators and at the blackboards of theorists, physics
arrived at an understanding of the three fundamental forces
in nature besides gravity: electromagnetism, which is
responsible for light and chemistry; the so-called weak
force, responsible for some kinds of radioactive decay; and
the strong force, which holds together atomic nuclei. 

According to quantum mechanics, the paradoxical lingua
franca of the atomic world, the forces between particles
are transmitted in a kind of game of catch by little
bundles of energy. For electromagnetism, the force carriers
are bits of light known as photons. For the weak force,
they are the W and Z bosons, which are brothers, of a sort,
of the photon. 

By the 1970's, the situation with regard to the strong
force was considerably murkier than for the other forces.
In 1964, the theorists Dr. Murray Gell-Mann of Caltech and
Dr. George Zweig of Harvard each independently suggested
that protons and neutrons, the constituents of atomic
nuclei, were not elementary but were themselves composites,
made up of smaller particles that Dr. Gell-Mann called
quarks. 

But quarks were never seen in isolation, suggesting that
the force binding them together was extremely powerful.
Meanwhile, experiments at particle accelerators indicated
that quarks inside protons seemed to act as if there was no
force on them at all. How could that be? 

"At first, it seemed like a contradiction," said Dr.
Wilczek. 

Or as Dr. Robert L. Jaffe of M.I.T. put it: "It was just
viewed as absurd that nature was made of something that was
never seen. How could the quarks not get out? It was upside
down to everything we had seen before." 

The 1973 papers, Dr. Jaffe said, "translated absurdity into
order," using the theory of quantum chromodynamics. In the
modern version of this theory, quarks come in six types -
fancifully named up, down, strange, charmed, top and bottom
- and three "colors," named red, green and blue. The colors
are like electrical charges that interact by exchanging
bundles of energy called gluons, just as electrical charges
attract or repel by exchanging photons. 

In contrast to electromagnetism, however, the gluons
themselves have a color charge - thus the name
chromodynamics - and interact with one another. In a
breakthrough calculation, Dr. Gross, then an assistant
professor at Princeton, and Dr. Wilczek, his graduate
student, found that the force between two quarks would
increase with distance and turn off as they grew closer. It
would be as if the quarks were tied together by a rubber
band that pulled tauter and tauter as they separated, but
went slack when they came together, a notion known as
asymptotic freedom. 

They soon learned that Dr. Politzer, then a graduate
student at Harvard, had done the same thing. 

Dr. Gross, 63, was born in Washington. Dr. Politzer, 55,
and Dr. Wilczek, 53, were both born in New York City. 

Noting that several Nobel Prizes have been awarded for work
on unifying the weak and electromagnetic forces, Dr. Gross
said that he was happy and proud that work on the strong
force was being recognized. 

"In many ways, I regard it as the most beautiful part of
the Standard Model, the hardest to put together and the
most exciting," he said. 

Dr. Politzer was described by Caltech officials as shy, and
he declined to be interviewed yesterday or to attend a news
conference. But, he is not completely unused to the
spotlight. Caltech said he played a physicist in the 1989
Paul Newman movie "Fat Man and Little Boy," about the
building of the atomic bomb. 

By DENNIS OVERBYE 





Three Americans who helped describe the force that binds
together the atomic nucleus were named winners of the Nobel
Prize in Physics yesterday. They are Dr. David J. Gross of
the Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics at the
University of California at Santa Barbara; Dr. Frank
Wilczek of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology; and
Dr. H. David Politzer of the California Institute of
Technology. 

In two papers published in 1973, one by Drd. Gross and
Wilczek and the other by Dr. Politzer, they explained why
quarks, the theoretical constituents of the neutrons and
protons that make up the nucleus, could never be seen apart
from one another. Their work paved the way for a theory
known by the fanciful-sounding name quantum chromodynamics,
part of a suite of theories known as the Standard Model
that explains all the forces of nature except gravity. It
also raised hopes that physicists might yet find a single
unified theory of nature. They will each get a third of the
$1.3 million prize. 

The award had long been anticipated by the scientific
community. Dr. Lawrence M. Krauss, an astrophysicist at
Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, said it was
long overdue, adding, "How often do you get to explain one
of the four fundamental forces of nature?" 

In a press conference at M.I.T., Dr. Wilczek said the award
was welcome recognition for the endeavor of trying to
understand nature. "It is one of the real gems of our
culture," he said, "that we can understand nature in this
way and that you find beautiful things." 

The award harks back to what now seems like a golden age of
particle physics that lasted from the end of World War II
to the 1980's. In a spurt of feverish activity at particle
accelerators and at the blackboards of theorists, physics
arrived at an understanding of the three fundamental forces
in nature besides gravity: electromagnetism, which is
responsible for light and chemistry; the so-called weak
force, responsible for some kinds of radioactive decay; and
the strong force, which holds together atomic nuclei. 

According to quantum mechanics, the paradoxical lingua
franca of the atomic world, the forces between particles
are transmitted in a kind of game of catch by little
bundles of energy. For electromagnetism, the force carriers
are bits of light known as photons. For the weak force,
they are the W and Z bosons, which are brothers, of a sort,
of the photon. 

By the 1970's, the situation with regard to the strong
force was considerably murkier than for the other forces.
In 1964, the theorists Dr. Murray Gell-Mann of Caltech and
Dr. George Zweig of Harvard each independently suggested
that protons and neutrons, the constituents of atomic
nuclei, were not elementary but were themselves composites,
made up of smaller particles that Dr. Gell-Mann called
quarks. 

But quarks were never seen in isolation, suggesting that
the force binding them together was extremely powerful.
Meanwhile, experiments at particle accelerators indicated
that quarks inside protons seemed to act as if there was no
force on them at all. How could that be? 

"At first, it seemed like a contradiction," said Dr.
Wilczek. 

Or as Dr. Robert L. Jaffe of M.I.T. put it: "It was just
viewed as absurd that nature was made of something that was
never seen. How could the quarks not get out? It was upside
down to everything we had seen before." 

The 1973 papers, Dr. Jaffe said, "translated absurdity into
order," using the theory of quantum chromodynamics. In the
modern version of this theory, quarks come in six types -
fancifully named up, down, strange, charmed, top and bottom
- and three "colors," named red, green and blue. The colors
are like electrical charges that interact by exchanging
bundles of energy called gluons, just as electrical charges
attract or repel by exchanging photons. 

In contrast to electromagnetism, however, the gluons
themselves have a color charge - thus the name
chromodynamics - and interact with one another. In a
breakthrough calculation, Dr. Gross, then an assistant
professor at Princeton, and Dr. Wilczek, his graduate
student, found that the force between two quarks would
increase with distance and turn off as they grew closer. It
would be as if the quarks were tied together by a rubber
band that pulled tauter and tauter as they separated, but
went slack when they came together, a notion known as
asymptotic freedom. 

They soon learned that Dr. Politzer, then a graduate
student at Harvard, had done the same thing. 

Dr. Gross, 63, was born in Washington. Dr. Politzer, 55,
and Dr. Wilczek, 53, were both born in New York City. 

Noting that several Nobel Prizes have been awarded for work
on unifying the weak and electromagnetic forces, Dr. Gross
said that he was happy and proud that work on the strong
force was being recognized. 

"In many ways, I regard it as the most beautiful part of
the Standard Model, the hardest to put together and the
most exciting," he said. 

Dr. Politzer was described by Caltech officials as shy, and
he declined to be interviewed yesterday or to attend a news
conference. But, he is not completely unused to the
spotlight. Caltech said he played a physicist in the 1989
Paul Newman movie "Fat Man and Little Boy," about the
building of the atomic bomb. 


http://www.webspawner.com/users/cindy1945/index.html


----------



## Maryjane

_I guess this thread died, To bad, I thought it had allot of different potentialeties that could be explored._


----------



## Maryjane

_Finally got my pic server back working. Here is the rock they speak of _

_




_


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## Maryjane

_Hi Brian, don't know if you check all these posts but it would be nice to see this thread revived, it has so much potentials in the world of possibileties. Maybe rename it with similar topics. _


----------



## aftermath

sorry about disappearing there for a while, but i haven't had time to read that article yet. Later tonight when i get home from classes, i'll seat down and read it and reply with a half *** response.


----------



## Maryjane

_I'll be back tonight also and see if I can concoct an eye oppener in an effort to revive interest in this thread. As a student Aftermath I hope I can oppen your mind to new ideas._


----------



## Maryjane

_What about these abductions we hear about. Alien or our own? There are some rumers of abductees having been abducted by our own militarty for some type of bizar tests and experiments. Aliens? why all the cloak and dager stuff and the flitting between trees in the dark shadows of the night to snatch someone off their feet and beaming them aboard their ship and doing the same to these abductees as our military people. That don't make sense, Why would the aliens take a chance of exposing themselves to possible danger, harm or capture of themselves and maybe one of their crafts, just to abduct someone? and why would they use any surgical tools of any kind? These beings that have been around, evolving for billions of years? Beings so far more supperior and advanced then we are that to see their technology would all apear like majic to you, like Merline the wizard or one of those wizards with the funny hats waving their wands and poof your in wonderland like those Walt Disny cartoons. What do you need a scalpol for if a beam of energy can do the same without even leaving any trace of lacerations. If they were malevolent would we still be here? Now they have discovered sugger molicules floating around in interstelar space. One of the building blocks for life. If their not here yet it's only because they got delayed getting here when they took a left instead of a right at Albequirki and got lost and had to take a detoor by Bugtussle to get back on I 75 to Earth._


----------



## aftermath

I still can't find my map!!!! I know its on this planet somewhere... i think. maybe it's on venus..hmm

Anyway, I have to agree with you on this one. I don't believe that aliens have been abducting people. I don't believe it was the military neither. I think it is just people wanting to grab attenion. If the military was running tests on humans, and they were abducting people, they wouldn't let them go. That person would have too much knowledge, and the side effects would be unknown since it was a test. No. they would use soldiers that would agree to it. Easy to cover that way.

And why would aliens even have to cut open our bodies? We have the technology look inside a human body and are to pick out details. If an advance race would from halfway across the universe to earth, I'd imagine their technology would far surpass ours all allow them to probe a human without having to touch you dirty... i mean us, humans. 

Maybe I left it in that diner...


----------



## Maryjane

_Which dinner? Porky Joes on station FLX stationary orbit over Pluto or Ma's Dinner on station W75T statinary orbit over Venus? I don't think there is another one till you get to either Beatlguise or Alpha Centuri. Didn't you read the sign on the wall at Porky Joes? It sayd last chance to stock up on supplies for next 36,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. miles. Long walk if you get a flat tiere. There apears to be there is going to be a slight complication in the retrievel of your map Sir Aftermath. I'll get smart by tomorow I promiss _


----------



## Eldo

I don't believe in aliens and believe that if there are any other life forms in the universe that they are unintelligent. I believe humans are the most intelligent life forms in our finite universe.


----------



## Michael

I find it difficult to believe that with all the stars and potential for life in this universe that Humanity is the only intelligent species.  The universe is finite but it is also vast compared to us and our capabilities.

However, I'm also inclined to think that there is a strong potential for diversity and that any life outside of Earth has a higher probability of being very different from anything we know.

Has anyone thought about the possibilities for what lies beyond the horizon of space?  Since contemporary wisdom suggests that space is curved--either saddle shaped or spherical--then this implies a "horizon" just like on Earth.  We cannot see over this horizon no matter how powerful our telescopes are.


----------



## Alexa

Michael said:
			
		

> Has anyone thought about the possibilities for what lies beyond the horizon of space?


Yes, I have. I still hope one day to see an alien. A smart, but not a destructive one.


----------



## LensmanZ313

I do believe that there are advanced alien civilizations out there. UFOs? Having seen a few myself, I know that there's something going on. I think _something_ happened at Roswell. Abductions? Over ten years ago, I had a severe head injury; following that, I had bizarre episodes, seizures, during which I heard voices and saw things. For awhile, I thought that I was being abducted but I wasn't.

Now, I also believe that humans have lived on this planet for a long time, even thousands of years; I believe that there were highly advanced civilizations on this world--yes, advanced enough to have interplanetary or interstellar colonies.


----------



## Eldo

Hello

I do not believe in aliens.  If there is any life out there it isn't intelligent.  Humans are the cleverest lifeforms in the universe.


----------



## Leto

Eldo said:
			
		

> Hello
> 
> I do not believe in aliens.  If there is any life out there it isn't intelligent.  Humans are the cleverest lifeforms in the universe.



As I don't think they're even the cleverest lifeform on Earth, this axiom is very doubful from my point of view. 

Given the size of universe, and given the fact we don't know for sure what's sentience and what's not, ithe question of the existence of aliens may stay unanswered for a long time. AFAIK, stars may be sentient beings.


----------



## ommigosh

I'm probably with Leto on this one.  I guess it's unlikely we (this generation) will ever know for sure.
I'd love to think that the Universe is teeming with life and that there are many many forms of intelligent life out there.  It is galling to realise that because of the mind-bogglingly huge size of the place, we are really pretty unlikely to make contact with any of them.  Maybe things like SETI are a good start although it seems like a very long shot.
alien abductions? - I don't think so. probably just confused, mistaken or attention seeking humans there.
Von Daniken? - Haven't read any of his stuff but I get the impression that he was generally considered to have been a bit of an imaginative opportunist cashing in on people's desire to explore the unknown.


----------



## Alexa

Haven't read any of von Daniken ?  Oh, my !  

I consider him more a dreamer than an opportunist.


----------



## Maryjane

_ Danikens was a dreamer and he came up with some ideas that debunkers wrere hard put at debunking.

     Here is my theory, just a theory.

_Now, I also believe that humans have lived on this planet for a long time, even thousands of years; I believe that there were highly advanced civilizations on this world--yes, advanced enough to have interplanetary or interstellar colonies. 



_I believe in an ancient cyvilisation having been here in our distant prehistoric past, and possibly even on Mars when Mars was wet and more favorable for life. If there are artifacts on Mars it will not surprise me if there is a connection with ours. If we can find any artificial artifacts on Mars and they turn out to be similar in architecture and construct with any of the ancient artifacts here on Earth then even the missing link could maybe found here as well. Supervised evolution and the supervisiors I name the watchers. 

 Now Imagine us being somewhere half way outwards from the center of the universe or massive black hole where the big bang originated from, and in the premordial soup of the big bang was all the building blocks to make everything thing there exists in the universe, including life itself. These building blocks for life would travel through space in cosmic dust, meteors, asteroids and comets, and eventually fall into the atmosphere of a planet with a suitable environment to form this life. Now our being only half way from the center of the universe this would make us a faiirly young planetary star system compared to one in the outermost fringes of the universe, the outer one being nearly twice as old. __Even traveling at just bellow light speed inteligent beings from this older planetary star system could have made it here to this very planet millions of years before even homoerctus climbed down out of his/her tree and walked upright on his/her two legs.

__Now if inteligent life in this older planetary system made it here that long ago to be sure if they meant us harm, on a grand scale or individually, they would have by now. I believe they had a hand in creating man from homoerectus genetically crossed with their own (brain) genes, 

 On examining the human body and that of most animals all our interior organs are the same, what diferentiates us from the enaimal kingdom is the (brain). At the begining the watchers remained to closly observed the development of their work, Then later left taking their technology with them. If that is so they are still out there possibly in interdimentionaly cloaked ships, what better place to hide.

 Or their race being is so old they may have expired, but I don't believes so, least ways not entirely. I believe they are the grandfathers the north Amarican native speak about and they are called (The Grand Father Stars) and we are the star children and someday the star children will return to the granfather stars, that is the legend. 
_


----------



## Michael

I like to think of mythology as metaphors rather than literal interpretations of reality. I believe that God is immanent in and transcends Nature. Then I can say that the Sun is my Father and the Earth is my Mother and would not be far wrong. Space and everything within it are the "ancestors" (the "Sidhe" in Celtic myth).

However, because of the fossil record and other evidence, including genetic, I am still inclined to believe that Humanity evolved naturally right here on Earth without "extraterrestrial" intervention.

EDIT: Of course, I like to look at other ideas anyway. Although I respect the scientific method, I do not forget that it is based on certain assumptions that cannot be proven. Theory also relies on the interpretation of empirical evidence, and different people tend to derive different interpretations from the same source all the time. In other words, the "interpretation" that humanity evolved on Earth without intervention may be wrong, which leaves other possibilities open.


----------



## Maryjane

_*Einstein said there were infinite potentialities .

 Her is a portion I have written in psychic waves @ thought stealers  in another part of  this site (science/Nature)

*_Indeed, even if the halves are divided again, each snippet of film will always be found to contain a smaller but intact version of the original image. Unlike normal photographs, every part of a hologram contains all the information possessed by the whole. The "whole in every part" nature of a hologram provides us with an entirely new way of understanding organization and order. For most of its history, Western science has labored under the bias that the best way to understand a physical phenomenon, whether a frog or an atom, is to dissect it and study its respective parts. A hologram teaches us that some things in the universe may not lend themselves to this   approach. If we try to take apart something constructed holographically, we will not get the pieces of which it is made; we will only get smaller wholes. 

  This, says Bohm, is precisely what is going on between the subatomic
 particles in Aspect's experiment. According to Bohm, the apparent faster-than-light connection between subatomic particles is really telling us that there is a deeper level of reality we are not privy to, a more complex dimension beyond our own that is analogous to the aquarium. And, he adds, we view objects such as subatomic particles as separate from one another because we are seeing only a portion of their reality. Such particles are not separate "parts", but facets of a deeper and more underlying unity that is ultimately as holographic and indivisible as the previously mentioned rose. And since everything in physical reality is comprised of these "eidolons", the universe is itself a projection, a hologram. In addition to its phantomlike
  nature, such a universe would possess other rather startling features.
 If the apparent separateness of subatomic particles is illusory, it means that at a deeper level of reality all things in the universe are infinitely interconnected. 

 In a holographic universe, even time and space could no longer be viewed as fundamentals. Because concepts such as location break down in a universe in which nothing is truly separate from anything else, time and three-dimensional space, like the images of the fish on the TV monitors, would also have to be viewed as projections of this deeper order.
_*
*_


----------



## Michael

Interesting how you managed to tie in both concepts in my post for that reply, Maryjane. That is pretty much how I perceive things.  There is the illusion of separation, and there is the deeper reality that transcends the illusion and is present both within and without.  The deeper reality


----------



## Alexa

Maryjane said:
			
		

> _ I believe they are the grandfathers the north Amarican native speak about and they are called (The Grand Father Stars) and we are the star children and someday the star children will return to the granfather stars, that is the legend. _


Oh, I like that MJ "the children of stars".  



			
				Michael said:
			
		

> However, because of the fossil record and other evidence, including genetic, I am still inclined to believe that Humanity evolved naturally right here on Earth without "extraterrestrial" intervention.


I agree with you, Michael. 

Still, we have to keep in mind the milions of years of humanity on this planet. There are too many flood legends, not to believe them. If in the past, one of those lost civilization managed to fly and went into another region of the world less advanced (not to say primitive), well the second one, could draw on thier caves the gods from the sky. More I thonk about this, more I am inclined to believe this could be the explanation. After all, look around on Earth as we know it in this moment. On one hand we have countries with a space program and on the other hand, there are countries where you can find primitive tribes (like on the Amazon or in Africa). 

With every new-born child, humanity has a new chance to create a better or a worse world. I only hope in a better one.


----------



## Hellsheep

I believe in aliens, because I belive in statistics. There are more planets in the universe, than you could count. Even if only each bilionth planet would host life, then there would be milions of such planets and if you got some milion planets with life, then there surely is at least one with inteligent life. It's all about probability....


----------



## Neil040

Hellsheep said:
			
		

> I believe in aliens, because I belive in statistics. There are more planets in the universe, than you could count. Even if only each bilionth planet would host life, then there would be milions of such planets and if you got some milion planets with life, then there surely is at least one with inteligent life. It's all about probability....


Well spoken Hell..  its blindingly obvious really.. considering that there are more galaxies than stars in our own galaxy the very question is a bit self answering.. of course there are other forms of life on other planets.. how could there possibly NOT be??   As you say.. its a matter of statistics


----------



## Michael

Wow, I walked out of here without finishing my post the other day!

Both Hellsheep and Neil: definitely about probability. It's too improbable that Earth is the only place in the universe with life.

As for flood myths, Alexa . . . well, I can't agree more. The way I feel about mythology is that much of it is metaphorical and symbolic, but I'm sure there is truth in it too. No atheists here (except my cousin, but he's Evil so he doesn't count).

Historical evidence can sometimes be as compelling as empirical evidence.


----------



## AmonRa

im not denying the fact(?) that there is other life outside earth, but dont forget the earth was very very very very lucky to get life, the conditions have to be sooooo specific that even if just one thing wasnt right then we would just be another large rock flying around the sun. infact we are actually too far away from the sun for life to live, it's just that there are other factors (like the heat the earth emits) that allow life.

ontop of that there could be other forms of existance... we have Abiotic things, which are dead, like rocks and air, and then theres biotic, which is living stuff... if the galaxy is so vast with so many posibilities, what if there is something out-there which exists 'beyond life'


----------



## Circus Cranium

Or maybe the aliens aren't ON other planets. Remember on Star Trek, Species 8427 from Fluidic Space?

Okay. I know Star Trek isn't real. But it's still cool.


----------



## Neil040

AmonRa said:
			
		

> im not denying the fact(?) that there is other life outside earth, but dont forget the earth was very very very very lucky to get life, the conditions have to be sooooo specific that even if just one thing wasnt right then we would just be another large rock flying around the sun. infact we are actually too far away from the sun for life to live, it's just that there are other factors (like the heat the earth emits) that allow life.


Well this is a whole and interesting debatable point.. which can be looked at several ways..  Even if earth was so lucky, as discussed before, there are just sooooo many star systems and undoubtable planets too.. too many for a human brain to fully grasp.. since they may actually be without end.. that statistics make very very very lucky commonplace anyway..

Another thing is that whilst scientists once thought the conditions for life were very tenuous.. certain very limited criteria required.. now it seems there is evidence that far from that, life is an almost explosive thing and will errupt anywhere possible... such as the discovery of the deep sea volcano life forms..  these use no oxygen... living in the sulphur outpourings... have no benefit of solar energy and are at immense pressures...  that could be anywhere..

Its clear that life almost certainly existed on mars and various moons of other planets are looking increasingly interesting too...

But this final point.. made by carl sagan.. is also fascinating.. even IF the universe is teeming with life.. intelligent life... at a stage recognisable by us at our own stage of evolution... how the hell would we really find each other?  Its all so vast... we might never ever meet another species!  If star trek etc turn out right.. then we will be starfarers.. but if no faster than light travel ever exists.. well then its going to be lonely for a LONG time..


----------



## Michael

Circus Cranium said:
			
		

> Or maybe the aliens aren't ON other planets. Remember on Star Trek, Species 8427 from Fluidic Space?
> 
> Okay. I know Star Trek isn't real. But it's still cool.


Always.  And what forms of life that float around in space subsisting on hydrocarbons?  Some of that idea can be found in Star Trek and other sci-fi stories, like Clarke and hmm . . . (who was the collaborator? Benford, maybe?) . . . anyway, the book is called "Beyond the Fall of Night."  Good stuff, that.

And you are right, AmonRa.  The conditions have to be just right, at least for our kind of life, which means that although those conditions might be duplicated many times in a universe this size there are probably more "dead" worlds.  The number of planets with life would be a small minority, but still astounding when you think about it.  Now, if we also consider the possibility of life forms that are different from life on Earth . . .


----------



## Michael

Neil040 said:
			
		

> Another thing is that whilst scientists once thought the conditions for life were very tenuous.. certain very limited criteria required.. now it seems there is evidence that far from that, life is an almost explosive thing and will errupt anywhere possible... such as the discovery of the deep sea volcano life forms.. these use no oxygen... living in the sulphur outpourings... have no benefit of solar energy and are at immense pressures... that could be anywhere..


I forgot about this point, Neil.  Scientists are beginning to believe that life arises much easier than originally thought.



			
				Neil040 said:
			
		

> But this final point.. made by carl sagan.. is also fascinating.. even IF the universe is teeming with life.. intelligent life... at a stage recognisable by us at our own stage of evolution... how the hell would we really find each other? Its all so vast... we might never ever meet another species! If star trek etc turn out right.. then we will be starfarers.. but if no faster than light travel ever exists.. well then its going to be lonely for a LONG time..


Yep.  This is the real problem with encountering extraterrestrial life.


----------



## AmonRa

Neil040 said:
			
		

> But this final point.. made by carl sagan.. is also fascinating.. even IF the universe is teeming with life.. intelligent life... at a stage recognisable by us at our own stage of evolution... how the hell would we really find each other? Its all so vast... we might never ever meet another species! If star trek etc turn out right.. then we will be starfarers.. but if no faster than light travel ever exists.. well then its going to be lonely for a LONG time..


this reminds me of a new 'theory' i came up with recently...

the universe is too vast to travel through, unless its possible to move faster than the speed of light.
some one put it into context once... if u were traveling on a train at the speed of light, from one end of the universe to the other it would take the same time to travel from glasgow to londom at one milimeter per year! so if theres more than one friendly race thats looking to meet new civilizations then they could make some sort of portal into a 'subverse' if more than one race put their portal on the same frequencies (coincidently) then they could meet in the subverse and then leave out of each others portal and land on the others planet.

so instead o traveling through space, u could travel round it 

does that make any sense or am i just rambling? >.<


----------



## Maryjane

_*Well now they speak of a hollografic universe where distance is an ilusion, paper thin, then there are the different levels of realety or dimentions all papper thin, an infinity of different levels of  realeties, interdimentional fluctuations or wormholes and the warping of space and time  with event horison of a black hole or gravitational ripples. As for life, any life mater and energy all originated in the premordial soup of the big bang where all building blockes to creat all that is in the universe  was contained in . Even if a life sustaning planet were a rarity in the univers, we'll say, one in a billion that still leaves a pretty big odds of some billions of potential life supporting planets. As for a different type of life form, why not? I realy believes that either Titan or Mars are going to profoundlly change our view on the possibileties of extraterestrial life.*_


----------



## AmonRa

Maryjane said:
			
		

> _*, then there are the different levels of realety or dimentions all papper thin, an infinity of different levels of realeties, *_


actually wouldnt there be a finite level of realities? i meen even if there was a 'dimension' for every single different posible universe since the big bang eventually u would run out of posibilities and they would start to repeat


----------



## Michael

Good point. I go for the "all possible universes" theory, but I can't be sure just how many are possible. I think that, even if we consider Hawking's idea, the probability wave of the quantized universe will have a finite number of points.

EDIT: However, since I'm a fan of panentheism, I don't know what's possible "outside of" or "beyond" spacetime.  I don't think I could speculate much about it, either.  Maybe anything--maybe nothing.


----------



## Neil040

Well I go for the one Universe and I don't believe the Big Bang theory either.. I think it just goes on and on and on and on (bit like me really   )

I think the Bang Bang theory was just an attempt to try and understand difficulties that arose with previous theories that they need to explain.. end up with that nonsense... now I could accept LOCALISED big bangs.. in which vast areas of galaxies do the thing.. while even more distant areas just carry on until their time perhaps...

Its a moot point that as the radio telescopes start to view ever more distant galaxies.. it does raise the issue of.. ok.. so the universe is how many years old?  According to the big bang theory 8 - 12 billions years.. well now we are seeing galaxies that are that far away from us..  so look in one direction.. 8 billions years.. now turn around and look the opposite way.. another 8 billion light years away.. there are more.. so those two extremes are 16 billion light years apart.. so we are looking at things that are 16 billion light years apart.. and even at the speed of light if starting from HERE, they would need those 16 billions years to get that far apart.. and they cant drive that fast!

My figures might be open to question in exactitude but the general concept is correct... big bang is wrong.. and I think even the best and greatest minds still find it tough to grapple with the concept that it may just simply go on for ever without end.. and has always been here.. no START.. just for ever... thats too big a concept to properly comprehend..  but I like it anyway!


----------



## Neil040

To follow just found this.. from cnn website.  In fact furthest galaxy 13.23 billion years in a universe supposed to be 13.7 billion years old.. you see my point? If we are seeing the birth of the universe in THAT direction.. how come we can see galaxies in the OPPOSITE direction eh?

*PARIS, France (AP) --* *Pushing back the boundaries of space observation, French and Swiss astronomers say they have detected the farthest galaxy ever seen.* 

The galaxy, dubbed Abell 1835 IR1916, is 13.23 billion light-years from Earth, France's National Center for Scientific Research said Monday. 

That places it further away than another galaxy believed until now to be the farthest known object. That galaxy, far smaller than our own Milky Way, lies roughly 13 billion light-years away. Its discovery was announced in mid-February.

Because its glimmer took so long to reach Earth, the new galaxy offers a look back in time to when the universe was just a baby. 

"It is as if we are seeing the childhood of the galaxy," said Roser Pello, a member of the team that found it. "It's a galaxy that is starting to form." 

The universe, thought to have begun with the Big Bang some 13.7 billion years ago, would have been a mere 470 million years old when the newly observed galaxy formed, the national research center said.


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## Maryjane

_*Yes what is beyond our time and space continuum , what is beyond the world of atomic particles and subatomic particles and subatomic particles within the subatomic particle realeties? Like pulling the proverbial elephant backwards by the tail through the eye of an infinity of needles. How many needles are in infinity and how many infinities in eternity? How many photonic angels can fit on the head of a pin? In the Qabla it says that Aleph created Yod, this reality, because Aleph could not exixst in one place because if Aleph did all else would seace to exist. Aleph created Yod in his image and both are infinite continuums within one.

 Lets say a galaxy that we would just be seeing now would be near or at the begining of the birth of the univesre like traveling back in time but the actual time frame of this galaxy is also 13 billion years old where by we may be only seeing it's ghost of 13 billion years ago and the actual galaxy has long since died today. The further we go out we may discover that like our planets or satalites outside of Pluto's orbit are being depbated as some being part of an asteroid belt or possibly captured palantoids from another planatary star system that passed colse to us melinias ago there could also be other "universes" out there that our universe captured migrant galaxies from, now that would be amazing. 
*_


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## AmonRa

Maryjane said:
			
		

> _*Yes what is beyond our time and space continuum , what is beyond the world of atomic particles and subatomic particles and subatomic particles within the subatomic particle realeties? Like pulling the proverbial elephant backwards by the tail through the eye of an infinity of needles. How many needles are in infinity and how many infinities in eternity? How many photonic angels can fit on the head of a pin? In the Qabla it says that Aleph created Yod, this reality, because Aleph could not exixst in one place because if Aleph did all else would seace to exist. Aleph created Yod in his image and both are infinite continuums within one.*_
> 
> _*Lets say a galaxy that we would just be seeing now would be near or at the begining of the birth of the univesre like traveling back in time but the actual time frame of this galaxy is also 13 billion years old where by we may be only seeing it's ghost of 13 billion years ago and the actual galaxy has long since died today. The further we go out we may discover that like out planets or satalites outside of Pluto's orbit are being depbated as some being part of an asteroid belt or possibly captured palantoids from another planatary star system that passed colse to us melinias ago there could also be other "universes" out there that our universe captured migrant galaxies from, now that would be amazing. *_


oh now ur just trying to confuse us


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## Maryjane

_*Not realy when one is dealing with infinities the sum of the whole is always zero. Ask Mr Einstein. and his theory of infinite potetialeties*_


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## Maryjane

_*But this new theory of a holographic universe may change the concept of a whole pot full of equations. Be interesting to see what comes out of that one. *_


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## Neil040

Maryjane said:
			
		

> _*where by we may be only seeing it's ghost of 13 billion years ago and the actual galaxy has long since died today. . *_


That is one of the most facinating facts to me... EVERY SINGLE THING we see in space is historical..  from the moon being just a few moments ago to this furthest galaxy.. we see it as it was over 13 billion years ago.. amazing..

That one is certainly dead by now.. but one a 'mere' 5 billion years distant say... where the hell is it even now?  lol  Its had 5 billion years to MOVE...  haha.. that would make even hyperdrive travel tricky... got to look at your destination.. then compute that its now waaaaaaaayyyyyy over THERE now and shoot for it!


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## Maryjane

_*One would have to calculate the speed it is traveling and how many lightyears it would travel in the amount of time it would take your starshipt to get there then plot on a star map where the position for this galaxy would be and taking into consideration where all the stras on that map would be  in relation to your galaxy when you reach that location, yep, would even give Eistein a headache *_


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## Maryjane

This is Paula in here on Maryjane's nickel.

 Something tells me that my new GPS won't be much help here..


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## Hellsheep

Neil040 said:
			
		

> That is one of the most facinating facts to me... EVERY SINGLE THING we see in space is historical.. from the moon being just a few moments ago to this furthest galaxy.. we see it as it was over 13 billion years ago.. amazing..


That's not only some interesting thought, it can cause serious problems. Fighter-pilots (USAF, RAF....) "fly in the past", as they say, that's when they fly at low attitude and high speed, because they're already behind a hill before they even recognize that they see it. Must be a scary job...


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## Maryjane

_*I thought I had this one posted last night? Maybe I did go in a time loop or something. *_

 Vestiges of Big Bang Waves Are Reported

 January 12, 2005
  By KENNETH CHANG 





 SAN DIEGO, Jan. 11 - Astronomers reported on Tuesday that they had convincingly seen, in the patterns of galaxies scattered across the night sky, the vestiges of sound waves that rumbled through the universe after the Big Bang. 

 Stars and galaxies tended to form along the ripples of the sound waves where matter was slightly denser, and the pull of gravity was slightly stronger. The ripples preserve a picture of the universe when it was only about one million years old and fit well with astronomers' ideas of how the universe, which started smooth and uniform, became lumpy with stars, gas clouds and other celestial objects. Two teams of researchers analyzing the locations of
 thousands of galaxies from two sections of the sky reported similar findings on the sound waves at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society here. 

 Earlier research had found signs of the ripples, but "we regard this as smoking-gun evidence," said Dr. Daniel Eisenstein of the University of Arizona, lead investigator of one of the teams. 

 "The important picture we have of the universe is hanging together amazingly well," said Dr. Martin Rees, a professor of cosmology and astrophysics at Cambridge University, who was not involved with either team. "The standard picture is firming up." 

 According to that picture, matter was evenly distributed in all directions for the first instant after the Big Bang. But then burbling caused by the physics of quantum mechanics created slight imperfections, clumps that were
 slightly denser with ordinary matter, as well as dark matter, the unknown material that accounts for most of the mass in the universe. 

 Just as ripples spread out from a pebble dropped in a pond, sound waves spread out from the dense clumps, traveling about half the speed of light through the hot gas made of matter, which is composed of electrons and protons, and of photons, or particles of light. 

 About 400,000 years after the Big Bang, the universe cooled enough that the charged electrons and protons combined to form hydrogen atoms, which allowed most of the photons to escape the hot gas. Several years ago, astronomers detected the sound waves etched by the photons. 

 The sound waves continued to spread for an additional 600,000 years, and when the last remaining photons escaped,
 the waves stopped, roughly 500,000 light-years from the dense clumps that produced them. When stars began to form, they tended to form around either the pebble-like clumps of dark matter or along the ripples. 

 As the universe has expanded in the 13.7 billion years since then, the typical distance between ripple and clump has stretched to 500 million light-years. 

 The new research shows the matter component of the early sound waves. Galaxies in the present universe are more likely to be 500 million light-years apart than other distances, Dr. Eisenstein said. One light-year is the
 distance light travels in one year, or 6 trillion miles. The pictures do not show sharply delineated ripples, because the ripples were small and many overlapping ripples emanated from many different clumps. 

 "It's a much more subtle effect than that," Dr. Eisenstein said. "It's like you've taken a handful of gravel and thrown them in a pond." 

 Dr. Eisenstein and his colleagues used information from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, which is mapping galaxies with a telescope in New Mexico. 

 The other team used data from a project called the 2dF Galaxy Redshift Survey that is scanning the sky with a
 telescope in Australia. 

 The research has also refined estimates on the amount of matter - 18 percent of matter is ordinary matter that makes up stars and planets, and the remaining 82 percent is dark matter. And it offers further evidence that the geometry of the universe is perfectly flat, where the angles of all triangles always add up to 180 degrees. 

 "It's more than confirmation of what we already knew from the microwave background," said Dr. Richard S. Ellis, a professor of astronomy at the California Institute of Technology and a member of the 2dF team. 

 As the astronomers look farther away and further back in time, the size of the ripples will decrease in size. The ripples could serve as a convenient yardstick to track the history of the universe's expansion. That could shed light on dark energy, a mysterious force discovered in the past few years that, at cosmological distances, is stronger than gravity and is causing the expansion of the universe to accelerate. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/12/science/space/12cosmos.html?ex=1106554830&ei=1&en=9e197f71a0dd078f


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## Neil040

Interesting stuff MaryJane.....  shall absorb that and see if it makes any sense to me... 

The thing that still gets me about the big bang.. (well amongst the other things I have mentioned already)... is that unless you combine it with a cycle of big bang... expansion... contraction... big bang... etc and for ever... you still end up with an almost supernatural event not that much different from the logic of those who believe in a god creator..

Which leaves you with the simple question.. so who made god then?  Or in the big bang theory.. so what the hell was there before?  And if there was nothing why in fooks name would it suddenly do the bang thing?  And anyway... how CAN there be nothing?  Makes no sense whatsover.. nothing in itself would have to BE somewhere!   lol


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## Maryjane

_*To put it as simply as I can Neil one doesn't have to put God on a back burner in order to view these concepts. God is eternity and everything contained within it is all that is. The big bang Is most likely the result of separate parallel realities in collision creating two parallel universes. As these parallel universes separated and drfited apart there was a massive black hole left, lets say a door way or thread connecting the two parallel universes or the cosmic strings the harmonics of two realeties. So what you have now is the thought of God made into mater and energy in the either of creation and everything in this premordial soup of creation was all the building blocks necessary to make everything that exixts in our universe, including life. All this last post says is that there was a signiture left by the big bang in the form of shock wave ripples in the fabric of space, space is characteristic to being fluid like. Like dropping a stone in a pond. Now there are probably many other such fenomanas that occured everywhere in infinite space, quantum universes where one has the ilusion of great distance and time yet all is part of a whole segmented into tiny replicas of the original holografic universe. one day these universes one by one will retract back on one another and "bam!" the cycle strats all over again, thus, the new heavens and new earth. A perpetual recycling. Well this is my theory which is subject to change just like any other scietific theory until it is a proven scientifically bassed fact.
 In order to understand the concept of anything with infinite implications one must forget the concept of any kind of measuring aparatuse. 
*_


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## Maryjane

_*Sumatra earthquake update

*_ Science: Quake's Echo Raised Surface Around Globe

  January 13, 2005
   By WILLIAM J. BROAD 





 New studies of the giant earthquake that produced devastating tsunamis in the Indian Ocean show that its shock waves ricocheted around the globe for hours and lifted the earth's surface nearly an inch even half a world
  away. 

 "They're like ripples in a pond," Dr. Richard C. Aster, a geophysicist at the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, said yesterday. "But the pond is a sphere, so they keep going around and around." 

 Dr. Aster, who compiled seismograms to measure the shock waves at increasing distances from the quake's epicenter, said the waves were 1,000 times the size of those that seismologists customarily measure. 

 The colossal jolt struck Dec. 26 off the west coast of northern Sumatra, and the shock waves radiated out through the earth's rocky interior, traveling faster than waves do in air or water. Dr. Aster used data gathered by a global network of seismometers run by the Incorporated Research Institutions for Seismology, or IRIS, a consortium based in Washington that is financed mainly by the National Science Foundation. IRIS has nearly 150 member institutions at universities in the United States and abroad. 

 The closest readings came from the Australian Cocos Islands, south of Sumatra, and Sri Lanka, and the farthest from Ecuador. The seismic data show the waves traveling around the earth for six hours. 

 Dr. Aster said that even in Ecuador, the shock wave displaced the earth's surface more than two centimeters, or nearly an inch, but the movement was too slow to be perceptible to humans. The jolt was much sharper in
  Pallekele, Sri Lanka, and shook the ground over a range of nearly four inches, he said. 

 Waves from the quake weakened as they bounced around the globe but were still discernible after making a complete loop. The seismogram from Tristan da Cunha, a group of British islands in the South Atlantic, shows the main wave arriving after a little more than an hour, then two smaller ones that circled the earth in two directions arriving after about 120 minutes and 230 minutes.


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## Sirathiel

So there are still people around not using the metric system. Beats me.  

To get back to a topic discussed here a short while ago: 
I just wanted to say that I know Earth is believed to be very lucky in being full of life. But I instantly thought: Who says that there aren't other forms of life possible? But I'm too late with that idea since it has already been mentioned. *shrugs* But I support it wholeheartedly!


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## Neil040

Sirathiel said:
			
		

> So there are still people around not using the metric system. Beats me.


There are indeed Sirathiel!  I for one use both!  Feet and inches are still handy measurements.. metric better for precision but feet and inches for rough work..  having done a lot of building work I tend to use both.. so do many builders.. for example plasterboard here is sold in eight foot by 1600mm sizes..  lol

And a pint is a better size for beer!  A litre too big.. half a litre too small..

And there is more!      The french dont use metric for wine cases do they?  nope.. ten per case does not work out.. has to be twelve...  and we dont yet have anyone suggesting a 20 hour day either!  Still have quarters and halves..

There.. my work is done...


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## Leto

Neil040 said:
			
		

> And there is more!      The french dont use metric for wine cases do they?  nope.. ten per case does not work out.. has to be twelve...  and we dont yet have anyone suggesting a 20 hour day either!  Still have quarters and halves..
> 
> There.. my work is done...


We do what we want. we invented it.  And for wine it's usually 6 bottles in a case. 12 is for oysters.


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## ommigosh

Someone once told me that the French once tried a 10 day week but it didn't catch on - don't know if they were pulling my leg or not.  Any one else heard of it?


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## Maryjane

_*They been using metric in Canada for last thirty years but I am still imperial measurment oriented. But for acuracy, like especially in weight in chemistry and other scientific measurement the metric system is much more acurate. For me it's just easier to picture in my head a mile then it does and kilometer, maybe because I was raised with the imperial measurement.
 As for a ten day week I can't see how it would be possible to devide 12hrs day and 12hrs night evenly in ten days, maybe 14 days, with 12 hr days and 12hr nights making up a 14 day week. or a two week month.
 Or two ten day weeks making up a 20 day month.
*_


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## Sirathiel

Oops, lol! Well, I did know there were people still using it. But for someone having grown up in a society that knows only the metric system I end up totally clueless if somebody comes at me with the imperial stuff. I used to RPG on another board where people from all over the world met. It was not as pronouncedly international as here, but still. When they described their characters they always (!) did it in feet, inches, lbs, etc. And I was left with no clue as to what 5'2'' was in cm etc. And I didn't see the interest of searching online converters and convert 10 to 20 measurements par RPG. 

*Shrugs* I know there were things like that in Germany, too. But it was so long ago... But the most confusing is pounds (lbs). The German pound is 0,5 kilogramm and fits in nicely with the metric system. lbs on the other hand is more than half a kilo... Confusing...

Geez, here I am rambling again. All I would like is that people at least use both parallely so that everybody who reads it (no matter if used to imperial or to metric) can get an idea about the dimensions involved. Wouldn't that be nice?

 But who said we lived in an ideal world...


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## Neil040

Sirathiel said:
			
		

> All I would like is that people at least use both parallely so that everybody who reads it (no matter if used to imperial or to metric) can get an idea about the dimensions involved. Wouldn't that be nice?


Quite right too!     We should all be bi-dimensional!     

Or like in Ireland again... where for years they have been changing road signs to show distances in kilometres... but of course some signs meanwhile remaining in miles.. while the speed limits are in miles per hour...you want confusing?  lol    Now they are changing next week to speed limits in kilometres too... but NO-ONE here actually THINKS in kilometres... so this should be fun..


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## Hellsheep

Neil040 said:
			
		

> Quite right too! We should all be bi-dimensional!
> 
> Or like in Ireland again... where for years they have been changing road signs to show distances in kilometres... but of course some signs meanwhile remaining in miles.. while the speed limits are in miles per hour...you want confusing? lol Now they are changing next week to speed limits in kilometres too... but NO-ONE here actually THINKS in kilometres... so this should be fun..


How can you think in such nonsense? metric is easy, you just multiply or divide by 10, which is really simple, because we use a decimal system. Who came up with that imperial stuff? I don't mind other units, as long as they make sense, but (16 fl oz = 1 pt) doesn't make sense.


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## Neil040

Hellsheep said:
			
		

> How can you think in such nonsense? metric is easy, you just multiply or divide by 10, which is really simple, because we use a decimal system. Who came up with that imperial stuff? I don't mind other units, as long as they make sense, but (16 fl oz = 1 pt) doesn't make sense.


Aha.. well cos it makes you think you see! Easy is too easy... lol us imperial thinkers managed to achieve quite a lot in the past.. in fact most british inventions and achievments were done using that awkward method.. simple is not always best!  

You tried to pace a long distance in metres? Its a step too far... a yard is just about perfect for an average sized man.. a metre is just too long! A foot is just about exactly the length of... you guessed it... a foot! An inch is about the thumb bent... as I said before, a pint is a decent sized drink in beer.. a gallon is a small bucket... and so on... 

The thing is that there were reasons for these measurements that made sense at the time... and while metric is best for precise measurements its still right that imperial is better for REAL stuff!  

It made us tougher mentally you see.. you wanna try growing up without calculators and using pounds shillings and pence!

EDIT :  oh yes.. (16 fl oz = 1 pt)  no idea where that came from.. I think that was retro engineered.. the only thing that mattered to olde englishe folk was the pint.. a mere fl oz was not even a mouthful of beer and so would never have been measured anyway!


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