# Dune by Frank Herbert



## MontyCircus (Jun 27, 2009)

As the cover humbly notes, it is "Science Fiction's Supreme Masterpiece", and on the back that it is "undoubtedly the grandest epic in science fiction".  As the back cover blurb further informs me, it won the first Nebula Award and shared the Hugo Award.

Wow.  So as someone interested in delving right into the sci-fi classics, this seems like the obvious place to start.  When I was two-thirds through the book, I summed up my feelings as "I think I can see why so many people love it...", and the last third did nothing if not reinforce my opinion.

I'll start with the good.  As Arthur C. Clarke's quote on the back cover says "I know nothing comparable to it except Lord of the Rings."  I can see where he's coming from.  Herbert created the world of Dune, and it's pretty rich.  Honestly, reading the book made me very thirsty, as page after page describes dryness, heat, and all-important moisture.  Describing in detail how the Fremen desert people survived in that barren wasteland was pretty cool.

What I thought was most impressive about the book was the intrigue.  You've got the Emperor, the Spacing Guild, the Atreides, the Harkonnens and other individuals all using Machiavellian schemes against one another.  It's always very clear what people assume, what their motives are and how they're trying to use and trick others to get what they want.  That...is really fascinating.  I've never read another book quite like this before.  The best passage in the book for me was early on with a dinner party on Dune that Duke Leto Atreides and his family held.  At the dinner you hear Leto, his wife (er...) Jessica and son Paul's thoughts...reading into the subtlest gestures, glances and words of their guests...even the tone of their words...all of them very paranoid and wondering who of their guests is plotting against them.  It was about as tense as the best action scenes and really got my me excited...and it was just a dinner party!

Knowing that this book had an influence on Star Wars was also interesting to me...as a rabid Star Wars fan since birth.  Let's see what we've got:

- Chosen one...a young teenager
- Living on a desert planet with 2 suns
- Learns to use the force (er...I mean Voice i.e. Jedi Mind Tricks)
- Father figure is murdered...he promises revenge
- Real father was actual the evil murderer

...and so on.

What really prevented me from loving the book is the characters...or lack thereof.  There really wasn't a single interesting character in the book.  Everyone more or less took the role of stoic statues.  They were all smart...but so cold.  Very emotionless.

The main villain, Baron Harkonnen, was also a bit over the top for me.  Kind of like the evil Emperor from the movie Gladiator.  The repeated pedophilia references got a bit grating...although I have to say, the passing reference to him being sexually attracted to Paul...his son...was pretty delicious!

Another problem was the action.  Herbert can't write action...so much so that he just refuses to try altogether.  There is a climactic battle at the end of the book that Herbert just kind of...fast-forwards to the conclusion.  It just seemed like a wasted opportunity.  Intrigue is fun and all...but you've got lasers and explosions and people riding GIANT FREAKING WORMS...and people reclaiming dead corpses' "water"...and somehow it comes off as boring.

The story is great...I just wish someone else had taken his notes and made something more entertaining out of it.

...but I guess Lucas already did 

@@ out of @@@@@

I don't intend to read any more of the series.


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## Rodders (Jun 27, 2009)

Monty, if you found the book dull, what did you think of the film or the TV series? Did you enjoy them or find them too quite dull? (i'm just curious.) 

I have read Dune several times, and seen the film and the TV show and enjoyed it immensly and still enjoy it to this day.


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## MontyCircus (Jun 28, 2009)

Rodders said:


> Monty, if you found the book dull, what did you think of the film or the TV series? Did you enjoy them or find them too quite dull? (i'm just curious.)
> 
> I have read Dune several times, and seen the film and the TV show and enjoyed it immensly and still enjoy it to this day.



I saw the old Lynch/Sting movie a few years back.  Yeah I found it dull too.  It's just so weird to have to spend so much time listening to soliloquys of people's thoughts while you usually get a close-up of their eyes or something.  After reading the book I see the problem for the filmmakers; so much of the book is just people's thoughts that it's very hard to translate to film without re-writing whole parts of it.  I haven't seen the mini-series but I'd give it a try if I had the opportunity.

Speaking of soliloquys, I remember a scene late in the book, where Gurney has a knife to Jessica's throat, thinking she's the traitor, and Paul is trying to "talk him down".  It all seemed very Shakespearian to me.  I imagined that bit in my head as a stage play.

Like I said, the intrigue is cool.  But it just feels like everyone is more or less a chess piece that Herbert is moving around.  The Fremen are an emotionless people.  Jessica, Leto and Paul are very stoic and regal all the time...stuffy.  Most of the rest of the characters are just "Sir, yes sir!" guards.

Oh and then there's the Mentats.  Herbert describes them as "human computers."  (I wish I could edit my review to throw this bit in, I was rushing out to the bar at the time).  Anyway, yeah, human computers.  That perfectly describes my problem with the characters (basically everyone in the book); it's like reading an entire book about Vulcans...that would be incredibly dull.

Another example of Herbert making exciting things boring, the gladiator scene between Feyd-Rautha and the slave.  I love me some gladiators.  Spartacus is awesome.  But when that scene ended I was really taken aback by how boring it was.  Everything was written just as a matter-of-fact...a plot point to get to the next plot point.  Really disappointing.

Herbert and Tolkien both made rich, detailed, convincing, fantasy worlds.

But Tolkien bothered to create characters to fill his


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## Dimentio (Jun 28, 2009)

I would claim that Tolkien also was more of such a person who was more interested in nature and cultural traits than he was in characters. Funny though that a lot of people could read Dune without knowing the characters despite following their thoughts.


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## The King Of Rock (Jun 28, 2009)

I am sorry you found no characters in a book full of them. Is the God-Emperor not character?  Loyal Duncan, not a character?  Helen Moynihan, notacharacter?   They seem to me to be characters in a novel written by Frank Herbert.  Sorry for the tone of my post, I am just a bit incredulous reading your review here.


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## Dimentio (Jun 28, 2009)

The King Of Rock said:


> I am sorry you found no characters in a book full of them. Is the God-Emperor not character?  Loyal Duncan, not a character?  Helen Moynihan, notacharacter?   They seem to me to be characters in a novel written by Frank Herbert.  Sorry for the tone of my post, I am just a bit incredulous reading your review here.



I think he means that he thinks that they lack personality traits.


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## The King Of Rock (Jun 28, 2009)

First, please understand that I am not trying to be argumentative, simply sharing views.  Feel free to disagree and point out flaws  you may perceive in my arguments.  I love debate!

They have very distinct traits, but Dune doesn't spoonfeed it to you.  They come from a very reserved and complex, very advanced human culture. So to me comparing them to a bunch of pot smoking partying hobbits doesn't really make sense.


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## j d worthington (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm inclined to agree with you on this -- and this is a point I've debated with others at various times. The characters in *Dune* are from a society which, in many ways, forces an intense degree of reserve on them; in losing the freedom/slavery of the machines in the Butlerian Jihad, they have had to take on something of the machine themselves in subtle ways; but coupled with an intense, very human which keeps their actually quite violent culture at a delicate balance (look at how much they focus on and have a language for poisons, types of assassination, and the like).

Herbert presents them to us as an alien culture, one which we must acclimatize to just as if we were visiting such a culture. That is part of the point, really: showing how alien even the most simple human things can become under the right (or wrong?) circumstances; and it takes a more careful and attentive reader to catch the genuine enormous amount of character and seething emotion which is held in below the surface; but if one does take the time and care, it is quite obviously there, and the tensions _do_ emerge very powerfully....


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## The King Of Rock (Jun 28, 2009)

Thank you sir, you put it much more eloquently than I could.


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## j d worthington (Jun 28, 2009)

Thank you; glad you liked what I had to say....

I've read *Dune* several times over the years since I first discovered it at age 12 or 13; in fact, I've lost count of the number of times I've read the first two books (the third on I have read less, though both *Children* and *God-Emperor* have grown on me over the years). I still read both with a great deal of relish; in fact, if anything, my enjoyment of them has grown the older I become and the more subtleties I find in them.

In any event, it is a book I am sure I will periodically revisit for many years to come, as it remains such a rewarding experience for me each time I return to it....


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## Connavar (Jun 30, 2009)

The King Of Rock said:


> First, please understand that I am not trying to be argumentative, simply sharing views.  Feel free to disagree and point out flaws  you may perceive in my arguments.  I love debate!
> 
> They have very distinct traits, but Dune doesn't spoonfeed it to you.  They come from a very reserved and complex, very advanced human culture. So to me comparing them to a bunch of pot smoking partying hobbits doesn't really make sense.



I agree, i read Dune for the first time late last year.  I was impressed by the characters i understood why they were the way they were. There were many well done characters you cared about.

I think maybe because they were from very alien cultures might put off some. To me it was the opposite, the freeman tribe was very interesting,made Arrakis come alive.  I really liked Lady Jessica,Duncan other than Paul.

Having read only the first book so far, i hope character wise the other books in the original series is as strong.


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## ktabic (Jul 1, 2009)

Connavar said:


> I think maybe because they were from very alien cultures might put off some. To me it was the opposite, the freeman tribe was very interesting,made Arrakis come alive.  I really liked Lady Jessica,Duncan other than Paul.



I always had the impression that Paul was almost the least important character. The story was really about the effect of a hero on the world, rather than the success of the hero.



Connavar said:


> Having read only the first book so far, i hope character wise the other books in the original series is as strong.



The next one (Dune Messiah) always feels like something Herbert wrote because he had backed himself into a corner in Dune. But afterwards, the Dune series could really take off.


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## j d worthington (Jul 1, 2009)

ktabic said:


> The next one (Dune Messiah) always feels like something Herbert wrote because he had backed himself into a corner in Dune. But afterwards, the Dune series could really take off.


 
I can't agree with you on that. The thing is, *Dune Messiah* is a completely (or nearly so) different _sort_ of book than the rest, but is also a very worthy book in its own right. If you go into it expecting more of the same, you're going to be very seriously disappointed. If you go into it expecting something different which is set in the same world with the same characters, you may find yourself (as I do) enjoying a broadening of both the characterization and the implications within the series....


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## iansales (Jul 1, 2009)

The first three books were conceived as a single story, so *Dune Messiah* was very much planned.


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## MontyCircus (Jul 3, 2009)

The King Of Rock said:


> I am sorry you found no characters in a book full of them. Is the God-Emperor not character?  Loyal Duncan, not a character?  Helen Moynihan, notacharacter?   They seem to me to be characters in a novel written by Frank Herbert.  Sorry for the tone of my post, I am just a bit incredulous reading your review here.



Paul - young royal-blooded saviour.  Spends most of the book either stifling his emotions or, how I imagined it, him posing in a statuesque, super-serious fashion giving orders and so on.  Or other times he was high and seeing the future and worrying about that.  Didn't care much for him.  Never really cared one way or the other how things ended up.

Duncan - just another Atreides henchman.  Never seemed important really.

Helen - Who?



The King Of Rock said:


> First, please understand that I am not trying to be argumentative, simply sharing views.  Feel free to disagree and point out flaws  you may perceive in my arguments.  I love debate!
> 
> They have very distinct traits, but Dune doesn't spoonfeed it to you.  They come from a very reserved and complex, very advanced human culture. So to me comparing them to a bunch of pot smoking partying hobbits doesn't really make sense.



Right, then when I said it's boring, like reading a book comprised solely of Vulcans is on point then.  I like passion.  Excitement.  The book completely lacks that.  Arthur C. Clarke originally made the comparison, but yes the adventures of Hobbits are much more interesting.



Connavar said:


> I agree, i read Dune for the first time late last year.  I was impressed by the characters i understood why they were the way they were. There were many well done characters you cared about.
> 
> I think maybe because they were from very alien cultures might put off some. To me it was the opposite, the freeman tribe was very interesting,made Arrakis come alive.  I really liked Lady Jessica,Duncan other than Paul.
> 
> Having read only the first book so far, i hope character wise the other books in the original series is as strong.



Really?  You thought the Fremen characters were interesting?  Who was your favourite?  Because really...they're all the same.  They (essentially) don't have emotions and all have the same united goal.  To me that'd be like naming your favourite Vulcan or Borg.

Gurney Halleck with his baliset and jokes and laughter at least seemed a jolly fellow.  And some of the Harkonnens and that Count Fenring seemed a bit interesting.  But the rest of the characters, to me, might as well have been called "Atreides lieutenant #3", or "Fremen male #27" or something.

So...I guess in the end I'm just not interested in the goings on of people from a "very reserved, very advanced, very complex human culture".

And if they're so "advanced", why do they lack the very thing that makes us human in the first place:  emotion?  Doesn't seem like a step forward to me at all.


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## AE35Unit (Jul 3, 2009)

Dune is a strange case because I loved the film but couldn't read the book! The film is SF but when I read the book,it came across as fantasy. Would have been ok I suppose if i'd been expecting a fantasy book but I wasn't and found it plodding and heavy. And incredibly dull! All words and no action!


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## Connavar (Jul 3, 2009)

AE35Unit said:


> Dune is a strange case because I loved the film but couldn't read the book! The film is SF but when I read the book,it came across as fantasy. Would have been ok I suppose if i'd been expecting a fantasy book but I wasn't and found it plodding and heavy. And incredibly dull! All words and no action!




You dont read more than 100 pages right ?  When the story goes to Arrakis it gets very sf like.  It is never though a science oriented book.  Its about ideas,themes,human issues.


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## j d worthington (Jul 4, 2009)

MontyCircus said:


> And if they're so "advanced", why do they lack the very thing that makes us human in the first place: emotion? Doesn't seem like a step forward to me at all.


 
Seems to me you missed the fact that the emotion _is there_ -- _*intense*_ emotion is there, in fact: hatred, jealousy, desire for vengeance, aspirations, hopes, dreams, love, lust, commitment, a love of justice, fear, dread... they are all there, and all quite profuse, in fact. The very language they use is loaded with terms indicating how vital these things are to them. If anything, I'd say the society depicted is seething with emotion, but it is viewed with suspicion, as to be overwhelmed by emotion to the point of letting it control one's actions puts one on the level of the beast (see Gaius Helen Mohiam's testing of the young Paul with the _gom jabbar_, for instance). At the same time, "thinking machines" are also viewed with deep suspicion because of the way use of such tended to trap human beings into paths more suitable for the machines than their own human potential. Thus, they walk a very fine line... but those emotions are nonetheless often just held in check, and frequently not held in check at all -- hence the frequent brutality of various aspects of the societies depicted, as well as the almost naïve romanticism of other aspects.

But... because of this very unstable dichotomy, such emotion isn't "in your face" -- the society would very quickly destroy itself if all that energy were allowed free play without an enormously complicated sort of _punctilio_. In fact, the more reserved the open display of emotion, the more one can count on the emotion itself being much greater than where it is freely displayed. So it is with the societies Herbert depicts in the Dune novels....


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## Anthony G Williams (Jul 4, 2009)

This was my take on the book, published on my SFF blog:

*Dune *was first published in 1965 to immediate acclaim, and it remains one of the most popular SF novels ever written. I read it several times in the late 1960s and early 1970s but not since, so when it was chosen as "book of the month" for the Classic SF discussion group, I returned to it with great interest to see how it stands up today.

At around 500 pages it is a massive tome by the standards of the time (when less than 200 pages was a typical SF novel length), space which Herbert put to good use in making his world rich and complex. Unlike so many long novels, there is no padding here. The story is set in the distant future when humanity has colonised thousands of star systems, ruled by hereditary nobles with an Emperor reigning over all. The civilisation is held together by a spaceship service monopolised by the Guild of Navigators whose pilots rely on a drug called spice or melange, which enables them to see the future and thereby guide their ships safely. Melange is highly addictive, cannot be synthesised and is only found on the desert world of Arrakis. As a result of political machinations, the House of Atreides, led by Duke Leto, is awarded custody of Arrakis and its fabulous wealth. But the previous owners, the Harkonnens, have no intention of surrendering quietly and a bitter conflict results. 

This would appear to provide all of the elements of a classic space opera but, unusually, almost all of the action takes place on the surface of one planet – Arrakis. The author thoroughly worked out the details of this world. The ecology is explained, backed up by an appendix devoted to it, with the interrelationships between giant desert sandworms and melange being a key issue. So also is the long-term attempt by the independent and ferocious desert-living natives, the Fremen, to alter the climate. The psychological, cultural and technical implications of living in such a harsh environment are a major theme, including details such as the design of the "stillsuits" which enable people to survive in the desert. 

The rest of the story is also filled with fascinating and original ideas. The human reliance on computers had been destroyed in a revolt thousands of years before, prompting the developed of advanced mental powers through intensive training. The most direct computer replacements are the Mentats, who are able to analyse vast reams of data and compute probable outcomes of any course of action. Most advanced of all are the Bene Gesserit, a manipulative guild of women highly trained in both physical and mental skills to achieve astonishing feats; perhaps above all the ability to analyse personalities through their speech patterns and to influence their actions via the use of "Voice", a tailored manner of speaking.

The story is full of quasi-religious issues. Although not themselves religious, the Bene Gesserit encourage the development of religions which feature their own members as revered – and feared – leaders. They are also trying to create by selective breeding over millennia the "Kwisatz Haderach"; a man who will have all of their abilities plus be capable of far more. The Fremen are religious (influenced long ago by the Bene Gesserit) and are waiting for their own "redeemer" figure; Lisan al-Gaib. These concepts combine to form a key plot element.

More conventional space-opera elements are present, particularly the existence of shields which block any high-velocity projectiles, leading to the re-establishment of knife fighting as a key battle tactic. There is much exotic communication, with battle languages, code words, hand signals and even a private humming language used by two of the characters.

Despite this richness of invention, the writing is not loaded with infodumps, the author slips in just enough information in passing (with a glossary of the terms used at the back as an aide memoire). The first two-thirds of the book consists of one almost continuous sequence, but there is then a break with the remainder of the book being more episodic as the various plot threads develop towards a climax over several years. Some unconventional approaches are taken; for instance, one person is identified as a future traitor before even making an appearance, the author deliberately sacrificing conventional surprise to achieve a sense of impending doom. There is something of the flavour of an epic classical tragedy, emphasised by a "chorus" in the form of extracts from historical accounts at the start of each chapter, looking back on the events being recounted. This deliberate myth-making reminds me somewhat of Cordwainer Smith's *Instrumentality *series.

Very unusually for SF of the time, the characterisation is good. Space is allowed for exploring personalities, for instance a formal dinner which takes up some twenty pages of fascinating multi-level exchanges, and six pages on the slow death of one character in the desert, giving us his final hopes and fears. Such is the skill of the author that such scenes as these are just as gripping as the action sequences. The hero of the tale fights against his destiny, regretting the way in which former friends have come to regard him but knowing he has to use their devotion in the right way. The conclusion is unexpected and satisfying.

Reading the book now with an author's as well as an SF fan's eye, I am more deeply impressed than ever. *Dune *is a superb achievement, one of the finest SF stories ever written, not just in plot originality but in the style of its writing. As so often happens, its success prompted a production line of ever-declining sequels. I read a few but kept only the first one, *Dune Messiah*, for a re-read someday. I won't comment on the 1984 movie, except to say that's what you get if you try to compress a densely-plotted book, which takes me around seven hours to read, into just over two hours.


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## AE35Unit (Jul 4, 2009)

Connavar said:


> You dont read more than 100 pages right ?  When the story goes to Arrakis it gets very sf like.  It is never though a science oriented book.  Its about ideas,themes,human issues.



Maybe i should give it another go in years to come. I just couldn't understand what was going on and why it is rated so highly. I just felt it was overrated and people were praising it simple because of the awards it had garnered. I've tried to read other Herbert books in the past and had the same problem. In fact it was worse. Couldn't make head or tail of what was going on(can't remember the book now)


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## Connavar (Jul 4, 2009)

The last thing you can say about Dune is lack of emotion.  It was hard not to feel the emotions that was going on.  Only reading Paul's thoughts,words about how others see him through the book was emotional.  

Actually the reason i havent read the other books yet is fear of a seqaul
disappointment after a great start of the series.   It felt like so much happened in the book that the story was complete despite the ending showing its only the first book.


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## j d worthington (Jul 5, 2009)

Connavar said:


> Actually the reason i havent read the other books yet is fear of a seqaul disappointment after a great start of the series. It felt like so much happened in the book that the story was complete despite the ending showing its only the first book.


 
Connavar: I don't think you need worry about that. While Dune Messiah is a very different book in various ways, I would argue that the quality certainly doesn't fall off. And, as iansales said, the first three were conceived together, so it isn't like so many sequels, where the writer has written a story and then revisits their world/characters either due to having an entirely new story to tell or because of pressure from editors/fans.

I think you'd find the other books (at least until well into the series; the last two are a bit problematic in some ways) well worth your time....


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## Connavar (Jul 5, 2009)

j. d. worthington said:


> Connavar: I don't think you need worry about that. While Dune Messiah is a very different book in various ways, I would argue that the quality certainly doesn't fall off. And, as iansales said, the first three were conceived together, so it isn't like so many sequels, *where the writer has written a story and then revisits their world/characters either due to having an entirely new story to tell or because of pressure from editors/fans.*
> 
> I think you'd find the other books (at least until well into the series; the last two are a bit problematic in some ways) well worth your time....



Which is something that i worry about specially after a certain second Foundation trilogy....   

I wasnt worried about that when its Dune though it was such a complete novel that i almost forget there were sequels until later when i looked up Herbert bibliography.  I didnt know anything about his books before reading Dune.


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