# Cheap Laptops



## mosaix (Nov 15, 2019)

I'm looking around for a cheapish (£300) Windows laptop for a friend. 

There are a few around but they all come configured with Windows 10 in S Mode. Apparently this means that you have to buy software through the Microsoft App Store and are stuck with Edge as your browser.

This also means that you can't download such products as Open Office so you have to lease (or buy?) Microsoft office products etc. Also no Firefox or DuckDuckGo. 

The Microsoft S Mode FAQ page seems to imply that you can switch out of S mode (It's a permanent switch) fairly easily. A couple of reviews seem to imply it's not easy at all and Microsoft go out of their way to make it difficult.

Anyone had experience of S Mode?


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## RJM Corbet (Nov 15, 2019)

I've got Windows 10 on a second-hand Toshiba I bought from a computer place for £200. I don't know about Windows S mode. It sounds like a complete rip-off. My laptop gives me no problems access to Google Chrome, Firefox and Open Office on Windows 10.



mosaix said:


> The Microsoft S Mode FAQ page seems to imply that you can switch out of S mode (It's a permanent switch) fairly easily. A couple of reviews seem to imply it's not easy at all and Microsoft go out of their way to make it difficult.


My thoughts are unprintable. Microsoft -- you suck!

Why _would_ anyone want to lock themselves into having to use only Microsoft products?


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## mosaix (Nov 15, 2019)

Looking around some forums re S Mode, apparently Microsoft give dealers a cut-price deal if they configure S Mode on their laptops because they hope to lock-in customers and get the money back by subsequently selling office products etc.

However, this would count as restrictive trade practices so they have to offer a way out - but they make it very difficult.


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## Venusian Broon (Nov 15, 2019)

I have a HP 14 inch Ryzen 3 with 128G of disk space and 4G ram. I think it came in a bit over £300, maybe £350 from memory - including a case for it. I too only have Windows Home and it appears that I have access with Edge to any other program, same as RJM.

Got it from CurryPCworld if thats helpful.

I did pay for windows 365, because I wanted word and excel, but I'm pretty sure you could download openoffice on it if that's what you wanted.


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## RJM Corbet (Nov 15, 2019)

Venusian Broon said:


> I have access with Edge to any other program


I don't use Edge at all. I ignore it. I'm fine with Google.


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## mosaix (Nov 15, 2019)

Venusian Broon said:


> I have a HP 14 inch Ryzen 3 with 128G of disk space and 4G ram. I think it came in a bit over £300, maybe £350 from memory - including a case for it. I too only have Windows Home and it appears that I have access with Edge to any other program, same as RJM.
> 
> Got it from CurryPCworld if thats helpful.
> 
> I did pay for windows 365, because I wanted word and excel, but I'm pretty sure you could download openoffice on it if that's what you wanted.



Thanks, VB. I've been looking at the HP 14 range. I don't think yours is available any more. Reviews seem to indicate the display on the latest range is not all that good. Trouble is 'not all that good' is subjective and it depends what your used to.

I think I'll show my friend the reviews then take him along to PC World  and let him decide. His current machine is quite old and very slow and he only uses it for email and writing a few letters so a display that 'is not all that good' might be quite acceptable.

Question: did you buy Office 365 or do you pay an annual fee?


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## Foxbat (Nov 15, 2019)

mosaix said:


> This also means that you can't download such products as Open Office so you have to lease (or buy?) Microsoft office products etc. Also no Firefox or DuckDuckGo.



Maybe a silly question but can't you just download Firefox? If you can't I wouldn't touch this product with a barge pole. Sounds like retail bullying to me.


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## RJM Corbet (Nov 15, 2019)

mosaix said:


> Looking around some forums re S Mode, apparently Microsoft give dealers a cut-price deal if they configure S Mode on their laptops because they hope to lock-in customers and get the money back by subsequently selling office products etc.
> 
> However, this would count as restrictive trade practices so they have to offer a way out - but they make it very difficult.


It's like smart energy meters. I recently changed energy suppliers. When I was googling around I decided to opt for edf because I was with them once before and I know what I'm getting.

I was filling out the online application until reaching the part where it said I would be required to install a smart meter.

So I logged out and went on looking. Next day I got a call from edf asking why didn't I complete the application? I said because I don't want a smart meter.

So she said: On no, that's fine then; you don't have to do it if you don't want to.

They try to con people into installing a smart meter by telling them it's obligatory, but it is not.



Foxbat said:


> Maybe a silly question but can't you just download Firefox?


Answer seems to be no, you cannot?

EDIT
Windows 10 laptops now seem to come with S Mode installed by default, because the seller gets a better deal by doing so.


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## CupofJoe (Nov 15, 2019)

Microsoft probably promote and defend their actions by stressing the peace of mind and extra security for casual users that come from a [sort of] closed system.


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## Overread (Nov 15, 2019)

Foxbat said:


> Maybe a silly question but can't you just download Firefox? If you can't I wouldn't touch this product with a barge pole. Sounds like retail bullying to me.



This might give some more info What is Windows 10 in S Mode?

Basically S mode is locking the OS to work only though the Microsoft Store and thus through microsoft applications. So yep even if you could access websites with downloadable content and programs you can't download and install them onto the computer. It's basically like a powerful school or child lock on the computer that blocks you out of a lot of the options. 

As the article notes you can (one time) disable it and go back to using the computer as normal. Honestly S mode is likely good enough for many people who just want to use it for facebook, word and the odd application or the casual game through the MS Store. It likely even makes it safer for them because its blocking them out of a lot of things that they could otherwise break their computer with (downloading random programs from the net etc....). 

Honestly S mode might be a fiddle to disable but the article notes once its done its done so it shouldn't be a barrier. If you are a confident computer user you'll be fine disabling it.


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## Venusian Broon (Nov 15, 2019)

mosaix said:


> Thanks, VB. I've been looking at the HP 14 range. I don't think yours is available any more. Reviews seem to indicate the display on the latest range is not all that good. Trouble is 'not all that good' is subjective and it depends what your used to.
> 
> I think I'll show my friend the reviews then take him along to PC World  and let him decide. His current machine is quite old and very slow and he only uses it for email and writing a few letters so a display that 'is not all that good' might be quite acceptable.
> 
> Question: did you buy Office 365 or do you pay an annual fee?


Yeah no idea what a good quality display means in those sort of reviews. I just use the laptop for writing and a bit of browsing when having a coffee. Never had a problem and never noticed the screen being bad. 

I bought the annual office 365 premium - which was about £50 ish from memory, and I can't remember if there was a full lifetime price or why I didn't take that. I think if the laptop lasts five years I'll be overpaying for it!


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## Finch (Nov 15, 2019)

The idea of a restricted computer is not a bad one. I have a  HP Crome book ,it is also a restricted computer , if your happy with the limitations it's a good trouble free machine.  It is easy to turn off the S  mode . Go to settings , it is there under security , and  Something ? . You will then need to go to the App Store to download Windows 10 home , it's free , and your done .


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## RJM Corbet (Nov 15, 2019)

Overread said:


> It's basically like a powerful school or child lock on the computer that blocks you outo of a lot of options.


Then it also compels the user to be satisfied with inferior Microsoft products like Windows Maps -- which is far inferior to Google Maps?


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## Overread (Nov 15, 2019)

RJM Corbet said:


> Then it also compels the user to be satisfied with inferior Microsoft products like Windows Maps -- which is far inferior to Google Maps?



Far as I can tell you can still access google and other websites and use features like google maps- you just can't set them to default. 
Clearly MS are weighting it as a locked system that has a heavy bias to their own services. They can only get away with it because the system has an opt out feature; though interestingly they don't let you turn it on and off (its likely because turning it off after installing 3rd party software might break the S system and how it works - esp for programs that might start up at launch and have elements which run in the background).


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## Brian G Turner (Nov 15, 2019)

My daughter got one like this last year for uni:





						Buy Acer Aspire 3 15.6 Inch A9 8GB 1TB Laptop - Black | Laptops and netbooks | Argos
					

Buy Acer Aspire 3 15.6 Inch A9 8GB 1TB Laptop - Black at Argos. Thousands of products for same day delivery £3.95, or fast store collection.




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8GB of RAM IMO is the key pointer, otherwise there's a danger of it running slow and laggy.

Never heard of S-Mode, and my family have bought 3 Windows 10 machines over the past year without any issue. Yes, we use a lot of third-party software.


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## RJM Corbet (Nov 15, 2019)

Overread said:


> This might give some more info What is Windows 10 in S Mode?


Thanks @Overread:

What does _this_ mean, from the above link:

"Any existing PCs with Windows 10 S will be converted to Windows 10 Professional in S Mode when they install the April 2018 Update."


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## Overread (Nov 15, 2019)

@RJM Corbet MS has often divided their OS into various packages with some variations between them. This just sounds like they are upgrading into the professional mode of the software. It might even be nothing more than a name change; though I've no idea what it would actually mean in terms of what is and isn't possible with it or what is included with it.


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## RJM Corbet (Nov 15, 2019)

Overread said:


> @RJM Corbet MS has often divided their OS into various packages with some variations between them. This just sounds like they are upgrading into the professional mode of the software. It might even be nothing more than a name change; though I've no idea what it would actually mean in terms of what is and isn't possible with it or what is included with it.


I checked in settings, the update would have to be installed manually, it's not automatic. I hope Microsoft does inform affected users that they're going to find themselves in S Mode after updating. If that's the case. I've checked my laptop and I've got Windows 10 Home, so hopefully no nasty surprises.

I must say that in spite of some rather desperate marketing to make it sound attractive, the S Mode doesn't sound anything most people would select by choice? Microsoft is sneaking it through a bit, imo.


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## mosaix (Nov 15, 2019)

Venusian Broon said:


> I have a HP 14 inch Ryzen 3 with 128G of disk space and 4G ram. I think it came in a bit over £300, maybe £350 from memory - including a case for it. I too only have Windows Home and it appears that I have access with Edge to any other program, same as RJM.



Just got back from PC World. They have an HP 15-db0599sa. It's a 15.6" display, 4GB memory, 1TB disc, Windows 10 Home (Not S mode!) edition for £269.00. Not a bad price. The display looks fine but, when you compare it to the laptop next to it, it's not quite as sharp. Still, for office and emails, I'm sure it will be ideal. 4GB instead of 8GB hardly matters either.

Nearly all the other laptops have either a 125gb or 256gb SSD and advertised as - _'Ideal for gaming!' _I suppose they're saying the SSD is faster than a traditional disc.  My friend, at 75, is older than me and not really into gaming. His budget is £300 so £269 will be a pleasant surprise.

It's probably end-of-line (reduced from £329) but HP kit is usually well made and there's probably at least five or six years life in it.

Thanks or your input, everyone.

Edit: Forgot to mention that there isn't a dedicated graphics processor. Another reason that it wouldn't be suitable for gaming.


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## Elckerlyc (Nov 15, 2019)

A PC or Laptop fit for gaming would certainly have a graphics card onboard. The size of memory matters (the more the better), but the size of the harddisk not so much.
SSD is faster as HDD (several times over), but not really suitable for gaming when the games require many memory-swaps and harddisk actions. The best configuration would be an SSD for loading the OS and other software and an additional HDD for your data. Both a SSD and a HDD in a laptop is not likely, except in special gaming-laptops but those don't come cheap.

Anyway, all this Windows talk reminds me again why I am using Linux.      I am free as a bird and all software is freeware. No big company who thinks it should think and decide for me (and has it own ideas about my privacy). Yea!


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## J Riff (Nov 15, 2019)

/i'd rather go linux than use any restricted crap from microsoft


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## Foxbat (Nov 16, 2019)

This S mode malarky just sounds like a sneaky way to get around anti-trust lawsuits.


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## Elckerlyc (Nov 16, 2019)

When it comes to Microsoft, the word 'single-mindedness' springs to mind.


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## Robert Zwilling (Nov 16, 2019)

S mode is plain old malarky and single mindedness is way too polite. Wait till everything is only available from the cloud for security purposes, then all there will be is a dumb terminal that stamps every single character and pixel with a unique code so it supposedly can't get lost in the cloud. Enjoy those fake hard drives while you got em before they too just become memories in the sky.


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## Finch (Nov 16, 2019)

The S mode is not part of a sinister plot . Windows in the past has had a number of security and performance issues. If your   computer did not become in infected  by some unwanted software, it would  become gummed up and grind to halt . S mode Is an attempt to stop that and make the  machines run  efficiently for longer. If you don't want it you can turn it off. I believe as we move from the internet as a novel form of entertainment to a vital  household utility, a secure terminal will be the norm.


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## Foxbat (Nov 16, 2019)

Maybe I'm being cynical but I wonder when Microsoft will cotton on to the fact that it could be seen as a constantly updatable feature by providing a list of downloadable 'trusted products by commercial partners' to users - for which they could then charge a subscription to facilitate these updates (just like antivirus software).


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## M. Robert Gibson (Nov 16, 2019)

mosaix said:


> he only uses it for email and writing a few letters


It is possible to install Linux on old machines and give them a new lease of life.  I had one running Vista and it's doing fine.








						Give an old PC new life by replacing Windows with Linux
					

Do you have an older computer that you're thinking about replacing because it runs too slowly?    Well, there is a much cheaper alternative (it's free!) for you to consider.    I know how enticing the idea of simply




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I use Linux Mint.  Email client: Thunderbird.  Office suite: LibreOffice



Elckerlyc said:


> all this Windows talk reminds me again why I am using Linux


Me too


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## mosaix (Nov 16, 2019)

M. Robert Gibson said:


> It is possible to install Linux on old machines and give them a new lease of life.  I had one running Vista and it's doing fine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks, Robert. 

Friend is a bit of a techno-phobe. Basic Windows with Word and Gmail is about as far as he’s prepared to go. 

Once tried to persuade him to have a network cable connection direct to his router. It’s right next to his laptop and he never moves either of them. Too much of a change from what he’s used to though. Linux would be mind blowing.


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## M. Robert Gibson (Nov 16, 2019)

mosaix said:


> Basic Windows with Word and Gmail


Sounds like a candidate for a Chromebook, if he doesn't mind all the data slurping from Google.


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## Parson (Nov 16, 2019)

I would point out that what Microsoft is doing sounds a lot like what Apple has done all along. They give little option for using other stuff. No options in the early years! I don't like it, but from M$ point of view, Apple is a MUCH more profitable company with a fraction of the sales. With Phones it is absolutely bananas .... did you know that 87% of the *profit* from phones belongs to Apple in spite of a much smaller market share? 

The take away... Make good stuff, get the "right" people to use it, and don't share.  (SIGH!!!)


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## J Riff (Nov 17, 2019)

My offline PC runs XP, no reason to change it. Plays movies fine.


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## Foxbat (Nov 17, 2019)

I'm also still using XP on an offline computer. Still the best operating system from Microsoft in my opinion.


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## Foxbat (Nov 17, 2019)

Parson said:


> I would point out that what Microsoft is doing sounds a lot like what Apple has done all along. They give little option for using other stuff. No options in the early years! I don't like it, but from M$ point of view, Apple is a MUCH more profitable company with a fraction of the sales. With Phones it is absolutely bananas .... did you know that 87% of the *profit* from phones belongs to Apple in spite of a much smaller market share?
> 
> The take away... Make good stuff, get the "right" people to use it, and don't share.  (SIGH!!!)


I remember a time many years ago (early nineties) when Microsoft was the controlling money giant and Apple used to whine about how unfair it all was on the rest of the market. How times change and how hypocrisy thrives on both sides.


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## Elckerlyc (Nov 17, 2019)

As said before, I am using Linux. But I have Windows-7 running in VirtualBox, for the software that has no decent alternative suitable for Linux. And DOS in DosBox for the old, nostalgic stuff.
I still have Windows XP somewhere, only problem is to get it working (authorization)
Of course. nothing compares to my very first computer, a Sinclair ZX80 with an astounding standard 1K RAM!


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## Dave (Nov 17, 2019)

Since Windows 10, you can only rent Microsoft Windows products rather than buy them. This means that even though I bought Access when I was studying, for a considerable sum, just a few years ago, I still have to rent it every year now if I want to continue to use it. Yes, it is a complete rip-off and I put off getting Windows 10 as long as I could but had no choice when my old laptop hard drive began to die on me.

You can use open-office products that are compatible and are free. I know plenty of people that use them and pay nothing. 



RJM Corbet said:


> Why _would_ anyone want to lock themselves into having to use only Microsoft products?


Because the laptop is cheaper. My son has a Google laptop. it is the same deal. It was only about £100 but you can only use Chrome and Google docs, Google sheets, etc. It was very cheap and Google products work adequately enough for most purposes.

It is really no different to printers. You can buy a new printer for £30 but each set of ink cartridges sets you back another £30. The cost of the ink cartridges is subsidising the cost of the printer itself because you are tied into one manufacturer of ink cartridge. The cost of the computer software is subsidising the computer hardware.


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## Foxbat (Nov 18, 2019)

Dave said:


> Since Windows 10, you can only rent Microsoft Windows products rather than buy them. This means that even though I bought Access when I was studying, for a considerable sum, just a few years ago, I still have to rent it every year now if I want to continue to use it. Yes, it is a complete rip-off and I put off getting Windows 10 as long as I could but had no choice when my old laptop hard drive began to die on me.


It's the same with Adobe products. The last one I bought was Premier and Photo Elements 11 because they were the last you could buy outright. Now you can only rent. I won't be buying/renting any more Adobe products and will make do with what I have. I still have my old XP disc and product code. If my offline PC fails completely, I'll just buy a new one, scrub the drive and reinstall XP. It'll be cheaper in the long run.


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## Overread (Nov 18, 2019)

In fairness Adobes renting system actually works out well for me. I was never going to spend the, what £300 odd in one go to get Photoshop in one go. If I ever had that much saved up for my camera hobby it would get put toward camera gear not software. The rental basically costs the same but spreads it out. Adobe gets my money and I get a powerful software package. 

Adobe also seems to actually add stuff to their software; whilst things like Word haven't really added any ground breaking new features. Heck it still throws massive hissy fits and formatting problems once you start putting images into it and if a single edit above moves everything up or down a line you can wave good buy to a half hour reformatting all the suddenly moved images (some now half missing as they are on the top/bottom of a page).


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## Foxbat (Nov 18, 2019)

The pitfall with renting is, the longer you use it, the less economical it becomes because there comes a time where it's simply cheaper to buy than continue renting.


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## Overread (Nov 18, 2019)

Foxbat said:


> The pitfall with renting is, the longer you use it, the less economical it becomes because there comes a time where it's simply cheaper to buy than continue renting.



True, for windows that would be my argument that after I've got word I don't really need to "buy" it again. Adobe at least updates Photoshop with new features and content and systems (beyond codec updates). The real trap is for hobbies where you end up renting software but in a lull in the hobby thus your'e paying for a service that you're not currently using.


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## CupofJoe (Nov 18, 2019)

At home I'm still using Adobe CS3 products. I had CS6, but that stuff just stopped working one-day when Adobe went over to the rental/leasing model.
CS3 doesn't have all the whistles and bells of the newest Adobe CC stuff [we pay for at work], but it does everything I want. I like and hate that CC is being updated and tweaked constantly.


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## Parson (Nov 18, 2019)

I am not a fan or the "rental' system either, but from a producers  point of view it's a no-brainer. You keep a steady flow of cash coming in. You get to make updates and tweeks, so that some flashy new product from a competitor doesn't look "way better." And you can keep up with the latest in cyber security. --- Before when people were buying new computers and upgrading their software every year or two it didn't seem so necessary from a cash flow perspective. --- You can see the reason on this thread; making do with things 5-10+ years old is not a good business model.


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## soulsinging (Nov 18, 2019)

Foxbat said:


> The pitfall with renting is, the longer you use it, the less economical it becomes because there comes a time where it's simply cheaper to buy than continue renting.


That assumes an option to buy continues to exist, which it won't for long. It's already getting hard to find actual dvd's and blurays for sale on Amazon... they want you to "buy" their digital version, which you're really only renting, so they can control your access, track it and sell info about it to advertisers. Everything is moving this direction. Even toothbrushes and razors are moving towards "systems" where you're subscribing to regular shipments of brush heads or razor blades. The only surprise is how long it took microsoft to get there.


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## RJM Corbet (Nov 18, 2019)

I believe that 'shafted' is the correct word that may apply, lol?

EDIT
And so? What are we going to do about it?


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## Foxbat (Nov 19, 2019)

RJM Corbet said:


> I believe that 'shafted' is the correct word that may apply, lol?
> 
> EDIT
> And so? What are we going to do about it?


Well, I know what I'm doing about it. I neither rent nor subscribe and never intend to. It's my intention to do without instead because the vast majority of these products are just not that important. Does it matter to me that I can't get the latest Photoshop? Absolutely not. How much of the new added features does the ordinary user actually use? Not that much I discovered - which is why I moved to the cheaper cut-down Elements. 

Of course,  it's up to every individual to make their own choice but the policies of companies will be dictated by whether they can keep or lose customers because of their business model. As they say in dragon's Den. When it comes to this new model, I'm out.


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## Dave (Nov 19, 2019)

Foxbat said:


> Does it matter to me that I can't get the latest Photoshop? Absolutely not. How much of the new added features does the ordinary user actually use? Not that much I discovered - which is why I moved to the cheaper cut-down Elements.


While that's true for you, and for Photoshop, it may not be true for everyone. I had to buy Access because my college told me that's what they are using and I had no choice. There are plenty of database management alternatives. Some people will need the same product at home that they use at work. Some people will buy the most expensive software anyway because they simply have too much money. Other people will not be aware that there are alternative options, so a thread like this is educational. Some, however, may have so much previous work invested in a particular brand of software and its add-ons, as templates and such, that it is just not worth the savings to start over from scratch. That will be particularly true with image and database software, and less with something like Word than can be opened by a wide range of competitors software. I agree with the person who says that Word hasn't really changed that much in the last 20 years and is not particularly good, but it is still the market leader.


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## Elckerlyc (Nov 19, 2019)

Dave said:


> While that's true for you, and for Photoshop, it may not be true for everyone. I had to buy Access because my college told me that's what they are using and I had no choice. There are plenty of database management alternatives. Some people will need the same product at home that they use at work. Some people will buy the most expensive software anyway because they simply have too much money. Other people will not be aware that there are alternative options, so a thread like this is educational. Some, however, may have so much previous work invested in a particular brand of software and its add-ons, as templates and such, that it is just not worth the savings to start over from scratch. That will be particularly true with image and database software, and less with something like Word than can be opened by a wide range of competitors software. I agree with the person who says that Word hasn't really changed that much in the last 20 years and is not particularly good, but it is still the market leader.


Yep, Microsoft has the market in a stranglehold. Companies use it because all their relations use it and they must be able to use the *.docs, *.xls and *.acc you send them. Personnel is trained to work with it and because of that are loathe to try anything else.
I have worked with Excel for ages and would call myself an VBA-expert. Now I am retired and work at home with LibreOffice Calc. It is a struggle. It is a good product, certainly where 80% op the people only use 20% of its options. It is freeware and works on several platforms. 
It also has to do with brand recognition and reputation. Everyone has heard of Microsoft, Adobe, Apple etc. People buy the newest product the moment it is available, thinking it will be better, faster, stronger. Hmmm. yeah perhaps the problem is people who simply have too much money!


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## Foxbat (Nov 19, 2019)

There's another aspect to renting/subscribing that I think should be of concern to some because I think there's a tendency in some folk to subscribe to a plethora of stuff and simply not to keep track of where there the money is going - to the extent that they continue to subscribe long after they've stopped using or no longer require that product's fancy features that warranted the subscription in the first place. The streaming market is an example of an industry banking on people taking out multiple subscriptions, and many will do just that because of the low subscription costs. Costs don't become so low when these become multiple products and, because of their number, become individually little used subscriptions.


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## Foxbat (Nov 19, 2019)

Dave said:


> While that's true for you, and for Photoshop, it may not be true for everyone. I had to buy Access because my college told me that's what they are using and I had no choice. There are plenty of database management alternatives. Some people will need the same product at home that they use at work. Some people will buy the most expensive software anyway because they simply have too much money. Other people will not be aware that there are alternative options, so a thread like this is educational. Some, however, may have so much previous work invested in a particular brand of software and its add-ons, as templates and such, that it is just not worth the savings to start over from scratch. That will be particularly true with image and database software, and less with something like Word than can be opened by a wide range of competitors software. I agree with the person who says that Word hasn't really changed that much in the last 20 years and is not particularly good, but it is still the market leader.


Perhaps they no longer do it but Microsoft (used to) offer student packages of their Office products at significant discounts. If they still do this, I would like to think your college made you aware of the fact.

They also did deals with companies who purchased large amounts of user licences. About three or four years ago at my last place of work, we had a special offer where we could download our own full copy of Microsoft Office for (if I recall less than £50). I didn't take advantage because I was still using Office 2000 then (and I'm still using it now).


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## CupofJoe (Nov 19, 2019)

The Academic Institution I work at sets up all students with Office365 for free and you can download the bits of Office you want to work offline or keep it all online with O365. The issue is when you graduate and lose access to your university account, you lose access to Office 365, the offline apps and all the work held on the cloud. You can get it back but they don't make it simple, but there are a lot of messages beforehand so you shouldn't be caught out.
For us Drones, they are trying to link it all together through Office365 to Teams and Sharepoint so we hold no data locally and it is all on the cloud. This will make us more secure [probably true I admit] and more nimble [which is management speak for Hot-desking].


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## Parson (Nov 19, 2019)

I used WordPerfect exclusively between 1989 and (maybe) 2005. But since then I've had to have Word because so many of my correspondents could not seem to be bothered to use a pdf of the like. I stopped updating WordPerfect in about 2012 and now have a copy of M$ Word all of my own. I still think it doesn't do as much as my older versions of WP, but M$ made it so that WP didn't play well with Windows and so the die was cast. 

My take is this: In general a techy person can still (and probable for a long time to come) be able to find nearly as good much cheaper alternatives. But for the vast majority of "ordinary" users the power producers, M$ and App$e, will still rule the world.


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## Overread (Nov 19, 2019)

I've used Open Office and whilst it "is compatible" it can throw up all kinds of oddities. For example its a right nightmare if you have images in your open office document as unless you do something specific with them you won't be able to see them even if you save it as a word document and then open it in word. I forget exactly, but it was a frustrating annoyance. Yes you can work around it but sometimes you just have to break down and go with the flow as that's so many times easier.


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## althea (Nov 24, 2019)

I am looking for a laptop since my HP Pavilion All in one computer died yesterday.
I have have never had a problem with it,then it just went dead. Up until then it was a great little machine.
I want a new laptop with 8g RAM,2TB storage,  SSD and to be at least 16 inches wide.They are a bit pricey,but I'm looking through the Black Friday deals at present. I used to have a lovely Sony vaio laptop but it was running Vista and wasn't modern enough to take Windows 10.
Up until now I hadn't heard of Windows 10 S,so thanks for the heads up.


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## mosaix (Nov 24, 2019)

althea said:


> I am looking for a laptop since my HP Pavilion All in one computer died yesterday.
> I have have never had a problem with it,then it just went dead. Up until then it was a great little machine.
> I want a new laptop with 8g RAM,2TB storage,  SSD and to be at least 16 inches wide.They are a bit pricey,but I'm looking through the Black Friday deals at present. I used to have a lovely Sony vaio laptop but it was running Vista and wasn't modern enough to take Windows 10.
> Up until now I hadn't heard of Windows 10 S,so thanks for the heads up.



Not sure where you're based, Althea, but for that kind of spec (which is very similar to my laptop) it may be worth considering UK based PC Specialist:





__





						PCSPECIALIST - Top Spec Custom PCs & Laptops Built to Order
					

Manufacturer of performance custom computers and laptops. Customise your ideal gaming PC or laptop using our advanced configurator.




					www.pcspecialist.co.uk
				




I've checked with them and none of the machines they supply run in S Mode.

Edit: Stupid of me.  I now see you are in Wales.


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## althea (Nov 25, 2019)

I have ordered the 17.3 inch Acer Aspire 3,it is coming tomorrow.I hope it's as good as it looks.Fingers crossed.


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