# War Plan Red



## Foxbat (Nov 6, 2017)

Thought Baylor might like this one.
War Plan Red - Wikipedia

Despite being allies in WW1, there was a lot of anti-UK sentiment in the USA in the late twenties and thirties and War Plan Red was a plan to go to war with Britain and Canada. Of course,  the USA had a lot of plans in place back then (Orange, for instance, dealing with a potential threat from Japan). War Plan Red was updated as late as 1935, however,  and was only shelved when Hitler invaded Poland.

But just imagine what the world might have been like if Britain and the USA had gone to war in  the early thirties, exhausted themselves militarily whilst Germany stepped in to fill the power vacuum. Perhaps, the Third Reich would have achieved political dominance  (and maybe even assumed the role of go-between and peacemaker for the USA and UK).

Hitler might have stayed his hand where Russia was concerned. Perhaps the Cold War might have started earlier with Germany the main supplier of the nuclear deterrent and leader of NATO (Nazi and Atlantic Treaty Organisation). Meanwhile, Winston Churchill ended his days as nothing more than a brandy drinking back-bencher.

So many possibilities


----------



## Danny McG (Nov 6, 2017)

If it had happened then by now I suppose here in the UK we'd be eating in McDonald's, drinking Coca-Cola and popping into Starbucks for a coffee.

Can't imagine us living like that


----------



## Edward M. Grant (Nov 6, 2017)

America tried to invade Canada several times. We beat them every time, and burned down the White House once.

The most amusing attempt I remember reading about was when Irish Americans decided to invade Canada, join up with Irish Canadians, and declare Canada independent from Britain. Only problem was, if I remember correctly, most of the Irish Americans were Catholic, and most of the Irish Canadians were Protestant, so it didn't go down too well.

There's an interesting documentary on Youtube about 'War Plan Red' and what the results would have been. If I remember correctly, the British plan was to start a naval blockade of US ports, because they couldn't afford to send enough troops to Canada to protect it.


----------



## Caledfwlch (Nov 12, 2017)

This often gets debated on alternate history forums.
The General view seems to be "defeat for UK/Canada on Land" and "Defeat of the USA at Sea"
But all the calculations for a US Land Victory appear to be based on the population of Canada, and the size of the Canadian and British Armies at the time.
They appear to forget that they would not just be facing the British and Canadian Armies, but the British Empire, especially the Forces of the other Crown Dominions. We would see Indian, Australian, Kiwi, not to mention Colonial Regiments and Forces from the Caribbean, Africa etc. So I suspect it's not such a clear cut thing to forsee.
As I understand it, in 1935, Portugal had a larger full time Army than the United States.

I doubt the Imperial Forces could have invaded the United States itself but pushing it out of Canada is not so unlikely.
I imagine there are lots of other factors that could come into play, too.

Maybe Japan sees its chance, and takes a few bites out of the US, whilst it's distracted to the North of the Continent. Maybe Hitler, who wanted at least peace, if not an alliance offers the UK assistance, either troops, or weapons and military vehicles - though I am not sure how advanced the Wehrmacht and its technology was in 1935.
Maybe France, nervous about Germany offers assistance to keep the UK "On side"
Maybe Stalin thinks its the perfect time to grab some territory, such as getting Alaska "back" or invades central/eastern Europe.

The United States and it's Military was not in 1935 the seemingly unbeatable Leviathan it was in 1945. And various Wars, from Iraq in 2003 to Vietnam in the 60's and Korea in the early 50's have shown that like any Empire with a large traditional Military, Guerrilla warfare is it's Achilles heel.
An equally likely result of War Plan Red could be a quick, or almost immediate "Victory" with the Dominion surrendering, or it's Parliament going into exile, then the next 10, 20, 30 years, constantly losing men and haemorrhaging vast fortunes of Dollars in attempting to control and dominate Canada, whilst Guerrilla forces launch attacks on patrols, bases etc, then melt back into the background.

I imagine John Doe on the street, whether in New York, or Los Angeles, would very quickly become fed up of the occupation of Canada leading to an endless campaign of friends and family members coming back from Canada in Coffins, even though the War was won. Some of the above are examples of how the War was won, but the Peace was Lost.


----------



## Caledfwlch (Nov 12, 2017)

I am sure I have read a novella/short story based around War Plan Red happening in around 1935, it was possibly by Harry Turtledove.
Generally, an Army, or it's General Staff at least, up to ww2 begin a new war, by using the tactics and methods of the last major war.
Hence, in WW1, at the start, in an age of machine guns and vastly more accurate and deadly Artillery, they were fighting the War, with almost Napoleonic Era tactics, you had Cavalry charges, you name it.

And since ww1 would be the main inspiration and source of various Generals etc in 1935, those are likely the tactics they would deploy, at the start at least.

So in the novella, you basically had the US Army and the Empire Forces both dug into Trench systems, neither side able to gain much without huge losses. Building Defensive Trench systems in key areas and choke points would certainly slow the US Army down, and give Imperial Forces much needed time to get reinforcements.


----------

