# Unsuccessful epic fantasy?



## Brian G Turner (Apr 14, 2015)

Can any one point me to epic fantasy series - multiple heroes, and multiple books - that have been forgotten by the world, or are otherwise rarely mentioned?


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## chopper (Apr 14, 2015)

Thomas Harlan's Oath of Empire series? alternate rome with chlthonic demons and julius caesar raised from the dead...


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## Brian G Turner (Apr 14, 2015)

Excellent - that's the sort of example I'm looking for. 

It's more to provide context, as otherwise it would be easy to think that epic fantasy = instant reader hit. I want to see where it hasn't been, and why.


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## Toby Frost (Apr 14, 2015)

How about Hugh Cook's books? I'm not sure if they'd count, because they don't follow the traditional epic structure, as far as I know. I suspect that his strange titles didn't help, either.


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## Cat's Cradle (Apr 14, 2015)

Brian, this link might have everything you are looking for...and more (or less, judging by the quality of these series, as described by the article's author). CC

http://bestfantasybooks.com/worst-fantasy-books.html


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## ratsy (Apr 14, 2015)

CC, that list had a lot of the books I read as a teenager in it! I have a soft spot for popcorn fantasy or cozy fantasy. I prefer the more current stuff, but reading Feist or Eddings is still fun because I have great memories of it.

I've read Lackey, Eddings, Feist, King, Anthony, Goodkind, Clemmens, Farland, Brooks from that list so I guess I've read a lot of bad fantasy!


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## Ray McCarthy (Apr 14, 2015)

Brian Turner said:


> I want to see where it hasn't been, and why.


And a list of all the MSS publishers and agents rejected?
Tricky task. By definition, the hits in any field are easier to find than failures unless an especially memorable Titanic / Hindenburg etc ...


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## chopper (Apr 14, 2015)

i think the stuff we need to find is not necessarily "failed", but more "forgotten" - i can't think of anybody else who even knows of Oath of Empire, let alone has read it, yet there are reviews aplenty on Goodreads. it clearly has done some business over time, but it was never the mega-hit series that, say, Rothfuss, Lynch, Sanderson, Hurley, Elliott etc et al, have all turned in. what about Paul Kearney's Sea Beggars, or Monarchies of God? had great critical reviews, yet barely anybody has read them or mentions them.


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## Toby Frost (Apr 14, 2015)

I suspect, and this is just a guess, that there would be more moderately and barely successful epic fantasy novels than one might think. What about some of the more obscure ones by Weiss/Hickman, or Terry Brooks? Would they count?


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## Ray McCarthy (Apr 14, 2015)

Toby Frost said:


> Terry Brooks


Certainly it's possibly some of his might be forgotten eventually, not yet though.


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## Brian G Turner (Apr 14, 2015)

chopper said:


> i think the stuff we need to find is not necessarily "failed", but more "forgotten"



That's exactly it - when I think of epic fantasy with multiple heroes, it's always big and popular series. I figured there must be at least a few turkeys out there.


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## Toby Frost (Apr 14, 2015)

I can think of a couple of turkeys - the problem is, they sold loads of copies!


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## BAYLOR (Apr 14, 2015)

None come to mind at the moment.


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## BAYLOR (Apr 15, 2015)

chopper said:


> Thomas Harlan's Oath of Empire series? alternate rome with chlthonic demons and julius caesar raised from the dead...




I takes a bit to get going, but I rather liked this series.


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## anno (Apr 15, 2015)

Thongor?!!


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## Jennifer L. Carson (Apr 15, 2015)

Here's my list for forgotten epic fantasy

Angus Wells, The Godwars series, Forbidden Magic; Dark Magic; and Wild Magic
Sterling Lanier, Hiero's Journey and the Unforsaken Hiero


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## Jennifer L. Carson (Apr 15, 2015)

Oh yeah, and book two of the Balkan Empire series (didn't read book one).  This one would be on my failed list: Richard Adams, Maia


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## Ray McCarthy (Apr 15, 2015)

Read Shardik, otherwise Maia doesn't make much sense? However Maia is a *very* much darker grittier story. I'm not sure I can read it again I (read it twice).


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## BAYLOR (Apr 15, 2015)

Ray McCarthy said:


> Read Shardik, otherwise Maia doesn't make much sense? However Maia is a *very* much darker grittier story. I'm not sure I can read it again I (read it twice).



Haven't seen a copy of that book in 15 years . Is Maia even still in print?


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## Jennifer L. Carson (Apr 15, 2015)

Well, Maia is available in Kindle, but not technically "in print" other than used.  I remember it making sense. Maybe I would have gotten more out of it had I read Shardik, but I'm not so inclined after reading Maia. I just found it gratuitous. As one reviewer on Amazon stated: 

Some parts don't really ring true; I did not find it convincing, for example, that Maia could be excited to orgasm by the whipping of a fellow concubine, and then so thoroughly revulsed by all the violence (and there is plenty) that comes later.  

I would think it would take a hell of a lot of Pavlovian training to accomplish this.  But hey, it's fantasy...and it comes off that way...oh dear, that pun was not intended!  (but I'm going to leave it anyway--the  made me do it)


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## Jo Zebedee (Apr 15, 2015)

Jennifer L. Carson said:


> Well, Maia is available in Kindle, but not technically "in print" other than used.  I remember it making sense. Maybe I would have gotten more out of it had I read Shardik, but I'm not so inclined after reading Maia. I just found it gratuitous. As one reviewer on Amazon stated:
> 
> Some parts don't really ring true; I did not find it convincing, for example, that Maia could be excited to orgasm by the whipping of a fellow concubine, and then so thoroughly revulsed by all the violence (and there is plenty) that comes later.
> 
> I would think it would take a hell of a lot of Pavlovian training to accomplish this.  But hey, it's fantasy...and it comes off that way...oh dear, that pun was not intended!  (but I'm going to leave it anyway--the  made me do it)



Sounds like a weak erotica. Even they often have more joined up plot than that...


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## Jennifer L. Carson (Apr 15, 2015)

Yeah, I considered wrapping it in a plain brown book cover when I went out in public   Today, I don't have to worry, my kindle cover is plain brown.


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## Ray McCarthy (Apr 16, 2015)

Shardik is a completely different sort of book, I was quite appalled by change of tone in Maia and wondered even was it same person! It ought to be forgotten. Now I need mind bleach in my coffee


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## Ronald T. (Aug 21, 2015)

Jennifer L. C.

You mentioned Angus Wells and that his Godwars series was on your forgotten list.  And of course, I'm assuming you read it.  However, you didn't say whether or not you enjoyed it.  I would be interested to know how you felt about it.

I have that very series in my own library, and I must admit I found it quite enjoyable.  I also have his Book of the Kingdoms series.  Perhaps I'm the anomaly, but I found both series very entertaining.  Without an ounce of shame, I will say that I find Wells' story-lines and writing style quite suitable to my tastes.  If he truly is being forgotten, then I find that a true shame, indeed.


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## Stephen Palmer (Aug 22, 2015)

As a huge fan of Richard Adams - especially his first three books - I also was amazed by the tone of _Maia._ I wonder if he had a touch of Old Man's Syndrome, such as affected Jack Vance in his later years (_Lyonesse III_ - I'm looking at you). It's one of those books that you hope, for the sake of the author's reputation, stays perpetually OOP.


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## Stephen Palmer (Aug 22, 2015)

To return to the original query, let's not forget the little known _Wanderers & Islanders_ trilogy by Steve Cockayne - superb books each a mini-epic.


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## BAYLOR (Aug 23, 2015)

Ray McCarthy said:


> Shardik is a completely different sort of book, I was quite appalled by change of tone in Maia and wondered even was it same person! It ought to be forgotten. Now I need mind bleach in my coffee



I was tempted to pick up *Shadrik*. It sounds like I didn't miss much.


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## BAYLOR (Aug 23, 2015)

anno said:


> Thongor?!!



It's a Conan clone but fun to read.


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## Stephen Palmer (Aug 23, 2015)

BAYLOR said:


> I was tempted to pick up *Shadrik*. It sounds like I didn't miss much.



I think Ray means _Shardik_ is fantastic and _Maia _is rubbish. _Shardik_ is indeed fantastic and well worth a read.


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## Ray McCarthy (Aug 23, 2015)

Stephen Palmer said:


> _Shardik_ is fantastic and _Maia _is rubbish


_Shardik_ quite good, I thought.
_Maia_? Well, it's like something Terry Goodkind might write when he wants especially to indulge in perversion. I don't think I'll ever read it again. Need mind bleach now just thinking about it.


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## Stephen Palmer (Aug 24, 2015)

I wonder what made him do it? Old Man Syndrome? There were hints of what was to come in _The Girl In A Swing,_ which is a not-bad novel, though nowhere near the standard of the first three.


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## Toby Frost (Aug 24, 2015)

I don't know about that particular book, but it is a point worth noting that you can't just have big detours into the Other Sort of Fantasy and not be called up on it. The readers will notice, the way that they tend to notice any excessive authorial indulgence. For one thing, are readers going to be terribly interested in the author's lengthy dalliance with Mary Sue? Also, if the hero spends 30 pages in the dungeon of the Flagellant Nuns, is he actually in any danger? If not, why is this wasting 30 pages of story? If so, why is the hero (and author) enjoying it so much?


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## WaylanderToo (Aug 24, 2015)

Jennifer L. Carson said:


> Well, Maia is available in Kindle, but not technically "in print" other than used.  I remember it making sense. Maybe I would have gotten more out of it had I read Shardik, but I'm not so inclined after reading Maia. I just found it gratuitous. As one reviewer on Amazon stated:
> 
> Some parts don't really ring true; I did not find it convincing, for example, that Maia could be excited to orgasm by the whipping of a fellow concubine, and then so thoroughly revulsed by all the violence (and there is plenty) that comes later.
> 
> I would think it would take a hell of a lot of Pavlovian training to accomplish this.  But hey, it's fantasy...and it comes off that way...oh dear, that pun was not intended!  (but I'm going to leave it anyway--the  made me do it)




the issue with this is it does seem that an _awful lot _(pun intended) of 'dark fantasy'/'paranormal romance' seems to contain this (Laurel K Hamilton I'm looking at you in the first instance, but she's not alone. Most seem, IMO, to be a cross betweeb Barbara Cartland & 50 Shades).

Back on topic... forgotten:

Amtrak Wars (I know, I know it is really scifi but....)
War of Powers
The Book of Words trilogy
The Elenium/Tamuli (certainly when compared to The Belgariad)


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## AnyaKimlin (Aug 24, 2015)

http://bestfantasybooks.com/best-fantasy-books-you've-never-read.html

This is a better list.  I've read most of it.  Guess I like forgotten fantasy


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## WaylanderToo (Aug 24, 2015)

not sure if it's _epic_ fantasy but...

The Flying Warlord series


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## juelz4sure (Jan 5, 2016)

Two books to really look into are The Dwarves it's a fantastic book from what I can remember (I don't know if it is categorized as epic fantasy). I think there are 3 or 4 books. The other book is The Wanderer ' Talent the entire journey takes 2 books VERY good book!


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## Jennifer L. Carson (Jan 5, 2016)

Ronald T. said:


> Jennifer L. C.
> 
> You mentioned Angus Wells and that his Godwars series was on your forgotten list.  And of course, I'm assuming you read it.  However, you didn't say whether or not you enjoyed it.  I would be interested to know how you felt about it.
> 
> I have that very series in my own library, and I must admit I found it quite enjoyable.  I also have his Book of the Kingdoms series.  Perhaps I'm the anomaly, but I found both series very entertaining.  Without an ounce of shame, I will say that I find Wells' story-lines and writing style quite suitable to my tastes.  If he truly is being forgotten, then I find that a true shame, indeed.



Hey Ronald T, sorry to take so long to reply.  I dropped off for a bit.  I read the Wells series a LONG time ago, but I remember liking it very much.  I wouldn't have read all three if I hadn't.  Never looked up to see if he did anything else so I was pleased to find out he has another.  Must put it on my to do list.  

I also very much enjoyed Hiero's Journey.  That series was a post apocalyptic fantasy, which I liked. I was a teen then so don't know what I'd say today.  

Also on forgotten fantasy list: Battlefield Earth by Hubbard.  I really enjoyed that, too.  However, I never read past that book (it was long enough to be it's own series!).  Hubby tried and said he didn't like the next couple of SF books Hubbard wrote, so I never tried them.


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## Ronald T. (Jan 7, 2016)

Hi, Jennifer L. C.,

Fear not!  I'm a true believer in the idea that we all have different timetables based on the priorities of life.  Because of that, I take no offense when those varying timetables require a pause or a delay.  It's all part of life.  But I thank you for your thoughtful response.  It was well received.

And I'm happy to hear you enjoyed Angus Wells' GOD WARS series.  I hope you feel the same joy and appreciation for his THE BOOKS OF THE KINGDOMS series.  I found both of these series a pleasure to read.  However, I will admit that I read them a LONG time ago, as well.  Yet, my fondness for them still lingers in the happy corners of my mind.

Like you, I read Hubbard's BATTLEFIELD EARTH, and enjoyed it thoroughly.  But I was horrified by the movie production starring John Travolta.  I've seen other poorly done movie renditions of books I found enjoyable and well written, but none that left me as speechless and disgusted as this one.  Of course, that's just one man's opinion.   And like you, I only read one of Hubbard's books.  Perhaps his philosophy on life left me less than willing to go any further.  Who knows?

All the same, I thank for your reply.

As always, my best to all of you,

The hermit in the woods.


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## pambaddeley (Jan 11, 2016)

AnyaKimlin said:


> http://bestfantasybooks.com/best-fantasy-books-you've-never-read.html
> 
> This is a better list.  I've read most of it.  Guess I like forgotten fantasy


I've read some of those ... shocked that Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser (Fritz Leiber) is considered forgotten!  And Lyonesse.
And the Amber series .....!!! And Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising series (which did not deserve that terrible film).
Lyndon Hardy's series was also very good, liked the logical way the magic system worked.

I did give up on Janny Wurtz though; all that angst in massive tome after massive tome and little plot development....


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## Fried Egg (Jan 20, 2016)

Does anyone recall "The Lords of Dûs" series written by Lawrence Watt Evans in the 80's? I think that this meets the bill. I was quite fond of this author and the series many years ago but you don't hear much talk of him now. I also liked his novel "The Misenchanted Sword".


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## WaylanderToo (Jan 20, 2016)

Fried Egg said:


> Does anyone recall "The Lords of Dûs" series written by Lawrence Watt Evans in the 80's? I think that this meets the bill. I was quite fond of this author and the series many years ago but you don't hear much talk of him now. I also liked his novel "The Misenchanted Sword".




oh dear Lord!! It's been years since I read those - may need to re-read


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## Beth Wagner (Jan 23, 2016)

Tamora Pierce's Song of the Lioness series, Craig Shaw Gardner's Ebenezum series, Robert Asprin's Myth series all favourites of mine but I'm not sure how obscure they actually are.


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## The Great Snook (Nov 16, 2016)

A few series that come to mind as forgotten (but not by me)

The Horseclans by Robert Adams Horseclans - Wikipedia

Coramonde by Brian Daley The Coramonde duology

The Gandalara Cycle by Richard Garrett  Gandalara Cycle - Wikipedia

and while not fantasy it is science fiction- The Lensmen by EE Doc Smith  Lensman series - Wikipedia

I read all of these while I was in high school/College in the 80s and I loved them all.


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## nixie (Nov 16, 2016)

Stephen Palmer said:


> To return to the original query, let's not forget the little known _Wanderers & Islanders_ trilogy by Steve Cockayne - superb books each a mini-epic.


I did read these but wasn't overly impressed.

One series that should be dropped into a large hole and buried for ever is Edding' s Elder God.


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## reiver33 (Nov 17, 2016)

I finished the Amtrak Wars despite my better judgement - it started as a trilogy and along the way morphed into 6 books. Its one of those narratives where the technological bad guys have to have a fatally flawed strategy so that the noble savages don't just get trashed.


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## BAYLOR (Nov 17, 2016)

WaylanderToo said:


> oh dear Lord!! It's been years since I read those - may need to re-read




I know he's good , but have never gotten around to picking up any of his books. I don't know why.


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## Vince W (Nov 17, 2016)

I enjoyed Dave Duncan's The Seventh Sword trilogy when it came out, but I've not seen it since the 80's. Apparently a fourth book was added in 2012, but I've not come across it.

Also when you look up Dave Duncan on google it says his website is hacked.


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## hopewrites (Nov 17, 2016)

(Skipped pg2, forgive me.)

Exiles by Melanie Rawn I love, no one seems to know of it, and even the author herself seems to have forgotten that it needs finishing.


Why forgotten? A head of it's time audience kill, and / or I heard a rumor the author wrote it as an emotional purge, and her "rough times" ended happily before she finished. I doubt the rumor though. 

The audience at the time was mostly malecentric, (closet female readership) and the epic revolved around three sisters, in a female dominated society.


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## The Big Peat (Nov 18, 2016)

Mike Jefferies' _Loremasters of Elundium_. I read the first book as a kid and was simultaneously charmed and put off by just how hokey and cliche it was. If you were to tell me the author had read nothing but _LotR _and _Narnia _prior to writing it, I would believe you. Yet fun. Just not fun enough to track down the others.

Better and yet still fairly obscure would be Peter Morwood's _Book of Years _series. Derring-do in Not-Japan.

Semi-obscure (at most), but the _Deverry Series _by Katherine Kerr seems mostly untalked about today.


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## Ronald T. (Dec 7, 2016)

The Great Snook said:


> A few series that come to mind as forgotten (but not by me)
> 
> The Horseclans by Robert Adams Horseclans - Wikipedia
> 
> ...




I have maybe 8-10 of Robert Adams' Horseclans novels.  And like you, Great Snook, I haven't forgotten them either.


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## Ronald T. (Dec 7, 2016)

Have any of you read IRONBRAND, GRAYMANTLE, or KINGSBANE?  These novels are from John Morressy's 'The Iron Angel Trilogy"?  I wonder it these books have been forgotten.  They might be.  But just as The Great Snook said of Adams...(but not by me).  I actually enjoyed them.


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## Theophania Elliott (Dec 7, 2016)

Beth Wagner said:


> Tamora Pierce's Song of the Lioness series



One of my favourites - and she's still going.  The latest Tortall book came out in 2011, and the latest in her Emelan series in 2013. There are other books upcoming.

I'll add Mary H. Herbert's _Dark Horse _series to the "forgotten fantasy" list - it wasn't great literature by any means, but it was a reasonably fun read. The series is all out of print now, although some of her Dragonlance stuff is available for Kindle.


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## The Big Peat (Dec 7, 2016)

Theophania Elliott said:


> One of my favourites - and she's still going.  The latest Tortall book came out in 2011, and the latest in her Emelan series in 2013. There are other books upcoming.
> 
> I'll add Mary H. Herbert's _Dark Horse _series to the "forgotten fantasy" list - it wasn't great literature by any means, but it was a reasonably fun read. The series is all out of print now, although some of her Dragonlance stuff is available for Kindle.



I discovered Pierce while on holiday on the Isle of Wight. I was somewhere between 17 and 19 I think and it was the first time I'd realised Young Adult fiction was a thing. Enjoyed the books quite a lot and think they'd have been appreciated more by the wider world if they hadn't been put in YA.


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## Theophania Elliott (Dec 7, 2016)

The Big Peat said:


> Enjoyed the books quite a lot and think they'd have been appreciated more by the wider world if they hadn't been put in YA.



Mind you, they are pretty solidly YA. Although I'd say that they're YA in the sense that _Harry Potter _is a children's book - it is, but there's enough there to appeal to older people as well. The fact that it's not all about the importance of having a boyfriend definitely helps. 

Reminds me a bit of the part in _Matilda _where the nice librarian gives Matilda Dickens to read after she's finished all the children's books, realising that Matilda wouldn't like the books aimed at teenage girls.


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## The Big Peat (Dec 7, 2016)

Theophania Elliott said:


> Mind you, they are pretty solidly YA. Although I'd say that they're YA in the sense that _Harry Potter _is a children's book - it is, but there's enough there to appeal to older people as well. The fact that it's not all about the importance of having a boyfriend definitely helps.
> 
> Reminds me a bit of the part in _Matilda _where the nice librarian gives Matilda Dickens to read after she's finished all the children's books, realising that Matilda wouldn't like the books aimed at teenage girls.



Oh they totally are, but I've seen basically YA books in the adult's section before and I think that generally works to an author's favour. Although maybe that's changing.


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## Theophania Elliott (Dec 8, 2016)

The Big Peat said:


> Although maybe that's changing.



Well, Young Adult is really "in" at the moment, among persons who are significantly older than the alleged target market. Do people look for them in the Adult section or the Young Adult section? I honestly don't know - I haven't been to an actual book shop in ages.

And to return to your regular scheduled programming... what about John Norman's _Gor _series? And Norman's a professor of philosophy. I never knew that.


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## picklematrix (Jul 4, 2018)

Toby Frost said:


> How about Hugh Cook's books? I'm not sure if they'd count, because they don't follow the traditional epic structure, as far as I know. I suspect that his strange titles didn't help, either.


Its a shame imo. Hugh cooks books are something different in fantasy, wuth a lot to appreciate if you can get over tbe quirkiness and moral ambiguity.


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## BAYLOR (Jul 4, 2018)

WaylanderToo said:


> oh dear Lord!! It's been years since I read those - may need to re-read




I know Im quoting this one again and no I didn't read this one yet.  But  I did read his book

*The Misenchanted Sword   *which is an excellent fantasy novel.


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## CTRandall (Jul 5, 2018)

Ronald T. said:


> Have any of you read IRONBRAND, GRAYMANTLE, or KINGSBANE?  These novels are from John Morressy's 'The Iron Angel Trilogy"?  I wonder it these books have been forgotten.  They might be.  But just as The Great Snook said of Adams...(but not by me).  I actually enjoyed them.



I'm sure I read these but, for the life of me, can't remember anything significant about them. I was probably 15-16 at the time and I think I liked them but my inability to recall specifics suggests there are reasons they've disappeared.


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## BAYLOR (Feb 13, 2022)

Ronald T. said:


> Have any of you read IRONBRAND, GRAYMANTLE, or KINGSBANE?  These novels are from John Morressy's 'The Iron Angel Trilogy"?  I wonder it these books have been forgotten.  They might be.  But just as The Great Snook said of Adams...(but not by me).  I actually enjoyed them.



I think ive seen those.


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## BAYLOR (Feb 13, 2022)

*Death Dealer* by Frank Frazetta


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## BAYLOR (Oct 24, 2022)

chopper said:


> Thomas Harlan's Oath of Empire series? alternate rome with chlthonic demons and julius caesar raised from the dead...



I have a soft spot for alt history stories dealing with Rome.


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