# Is Fantasy stuck in the mud?



## Stewart Hotston (Oct 17, 2016)

A confession. I read a lot of fantasy as a teenage but I read very little now. I read A LOT but I read a mix of stuff although it rarely features fantasy. 

The fantasy I really like is stuff like Steven Erikson. I've recently tried to get back into it but found that it's pretty much the same field as the one I got bored with twenty years ago. It's not particularly diverse, it's largely about the same issues (so, so often barely concealed coming of age dramas about little boys with potency issues - especially grimdark). 

On the other side I've been pointed to some amazing, groundbreaking sci fi over the last five years - whether it's Jeff Vandermeer, Adam Roberts, China Mieville or a dozen others (and yes you *could* argue that Mieville writes fantasy as much as he writes Sci Fi - perhaps Weird Fic is better). 

So I have two questions:

1. is Fantasy stuck in the proverbial mud - unable to find new stories, tell new tales or make a proper challenge to the people reading it?

2 If you think the answer is no - would you do me the delight of pointing me in the direction of stuff that's epically ground breaking? I'm after stuff that challenges the society I live in, its accepted ideas about what's good, evil, progress and legacy, acceptable or taboo. In other words, the best that fiction can offer.

I'm kind of hoping that I've just been poor at discovering new voices and here seems as good a place as any to ask!


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## Elventine (Oct 17, 2016)

May I suggest not reading the new stuff if that is what you are after, modern fantasy has lost it's oomph. If you are looking for thought provoking hmmm.... 

*Corean Chronicles* - A wonderful series that questions the way we live in the modern world and our ever growing need for more, better, newer, smarter do-da's and what exact price are we actually willing to pay for these advancements in science. 

*The Death Gate Cycle *- Wonderful series that takes a good look at the price of needless hate and racial discrimination and the effects of this upon our world. If you want a series that pushes the thought buttons this is one of the best. 

*Callanish* - This is a stand alone novel and if you don't come to a new understanding about slavery and what freedom really means then I don't know...


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## Brian G Turner (Oct 17, 2016)

Stewart Hotston said:


> it's pretty much the same field as the one I got bored with twenty years ago



I'm finding the complete opposite - that it's becoming increasingly more varied and diverse, and challenging boundaries as to what defines fantasy. 

It depends what appeals to your tastes, though - there's certainly very little with an actual metaphysical dimension that aims to challenge a reader's way of thinking about the real world.



Stewart Hotston said:


> The fantasy I really like is stuff like Steven Erikson.



Erickson's series is extremely fantastical. I'm afraid I tend to avoid that end of the genre to focus more on the historical fantasy side. However, the authors you cite - not least Vandermeer and Mieville - are very much weird fantasy. It might be better to look for more recommendations from that side of the genre?

See if these discussions help:
List of Mind-Bending SF/F Books
Books like those by Jack Vance.


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## AnyaKimlin (Oct 17, 2016)

Well according the agents my book didn't fit the standard fantasy mould however reading your list of authors I doubt it's your thing either.  In many ways the story is generic and it's a standard epic fantasy.

I haven't read any epic fantasy recently as I'm currently writing an urban fantasy.


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## nixie (Oct 17, 2016)

Fantasy has moved on. There are so many diverse writers . If you enjoyed Erikson's then try Glen Cooke.

Joe Abercrombie, Mark Lawerence, Peter V Brett, I would highly recommend  along with Scott  Lynch , Patrick Rothfuss.


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## The Big Peat (Oct 17, 2016)

Maybe look at Terry Pratchett. He took Ye Olde Fantasy worlde and expanded it in several directions with a number of satires on very real world themes. His earlier books are more fantasy parodies but the further you progress, the more he looks at what it is to be human.

Of course, Pratchett is hardly modern.

On a more general answer to this - I'm not sure. There's a lot of very diverse fantasy on the edges but I do feel like the mainstream field hasn't changed much. It's had a new coat of paint but not a lot else.


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## Toby Frost (Oct 17, 2016)

Difficult question. As far as I can tell:

Diversity in the modern sense (gender/race/sexuality) is a big thing at the moment and probably will stay that way. I would expect there to be more issues-based novels in this area, especially in YA. So there's more diversity there, although of course it depends on the book.

Coming-of-age stories still seem to be popular, which means that stories about young people are popular too (there's a big overlap although they're not the same thing). Grimdark is different, but can become samey pretty quickly, especially if all it does is reverse the conventions of older stories for effect.

In terms of settings, I think it is a bit more diverse. The standard faux-medieval Europe setting is still there, but there are lots of others, often involving some big magical twist that's subtler than "some people are wizards". However, as Brian says, I don't think there is all that much that's genuinely metaphysical in the same way as, say, Philip K Dick.

Actually, it sounds as if you might like _Mythago Wood_ by Robert Holdstock or maybe even _The Traveller in Black_ by John Brunner. It's not new, but it's very good and unusual.


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## Stewart Hotston (Oct 17, 2016)

thanks all! This is a great set of options. I've read Abercrombie and Lawrence and liked their initial stuff (the earlier stuff) but, at the risk of being vulnerable, I found it all a bit samey after a while. It's very 'modern' in that the sensibilities are very modern but beyond that after the first trilogy I simply didn't feel compelled.

I'd say that Vandermeer is sci-fi, but I admit it's probably potato/potatoe.

I'm going to try Glen Cooke straight away.

When people talk about diversity though I tend to experience this as there simply being people with different skins or sexes but they tend to have exactly the same preoccupations as all the other characters, which are generally filtered through the dominant cultural starting point. By that I don't mean it's specifically racist (which it isn't) nor sexist (again, it's not) it just seems to miss the fact that peoples from other cultures and backgrounds really don't necessarily think like I do. I always run a Franz Fanon test - namely do all the characters namely think about the world in the same way? If they do then it's failed to actually get the point of diversity. (Franz Fanon was a French/Algerian writer who wrote the 'Wretched of the Earth' in response to the Algerian revolution and made the profound point that other people actually don't want to be like us and part of their rebellion is a rejection of everything we stand for not simply the every day injustices they suffered at their colonial rulers' hands.)

Brian - do you have any recommendations? I'm hungry to populate my shelves with a few more possibilities.


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## Stewart Hotston (Oct 17, 2016)

Sorry, missed your link to the mindbending books!


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## Elventine (Oct 17, 2016)

I think that the sameyness of fantasy depends on the subgenre rather than a blank thing covering all fantasy. I I look at a lot of urban fantasy it all seems to be much of the same, dark events, a rather anti hero coming to save the day, evil forces and grey moral high grounds. With vampires, zombies or supernatural creature of choice. 

But then you get fantasy like Riyria Revelations, Haruki Murakami, Neil Gaiman and others that write fantasy that is not just fantasy. There is an undercurrent of complexity of character and story that makes every story unique.


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## Gonk the Insane (Oct 17, 2016)

Stewart Hotston said:


> 1. is Fantasy stuck in the proverbial mud - unable to find new stories, tell new tales or make a proper challenge to the people reading it?


No, I don't think so. Much like Brian, I think the reverse is true: there are dozens and dozens of subgenres that just didn't exist 20 or 30 years ago, and crossovers with other genres. The advent of e-books and self-publishing have made it easier than ever for books that would never find a traditional publisher (ie because they're "niche") to get into my grubby little hands. Of course, the flip side of that is with thousands and thousands of books published/self-published each year it can be difficult to find something original, with a unique voice, or something that veers from, say, the traditional hero-goes-on-a-quest model that has been prevalent for so long. Don't get me wrong, I like books like that, but I read a lot of Fantasy and there are moments when I get a little bored with variations on the same theme and crave something fresh and different. Finding them isn't always easy (especially because so many self-published books are so far off the quality standards of those from publishing houses) but I find I often enjoy those that are startlingly different that much more.



Stewart Hotston said:


> would you do me the delight of pointing me in the direction of stuff that's epically ground breaking?


Sure, here are a few of varying degrees of epic-ness. Some of them may just be done very well rather than being truly original. Apologies if none are new to you.

_The Rook_ by Daniel O'Malley:
Urban Fantasy, but one of the best of its kind and incredibly well written. Interesting premise, too (check out the first page to see).

_Sandman Slim_ by Richard Kadrey:
Ultra-violent, ultra-sweary Urban Fantasy. If Motorhead were a book, this is the book they'd be.

_The Mirror Empire_ by Kameron Hurley:
Epic Fantasy, but very distinctive.

_The Book of Phoenix_ by Nnedi Okorafor:
Unlike anything I've ever read. Definitely meets your criteria.

_Station Eleven_ by Emily St. John Mandel:
In many ways a riff on your typical post-apocalyptic future story but just beautifully written

_Jennifer Government_ by Max Barry:
A comic, satirical look at the near-future, disturbing precisely because it seems entirely plausible. His novel _Lexicon _is also brilliant, with a great central concept.

_Osama_ by Lavie Tidhar:
Didn't really do it for me, but it's different to the usual.


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## Stewart Hotston (Oct 18, 2016)

I read Osama with interest. It was a strange book with a great story that wasn't edited well enough to come out as strongly as it should have. 

Station Eleven. I liked it and it's hard for me to be impressed by apocalyptic stories because they so often feel like a rich first world person meme writ large where the other has overwhelmed us...

Book of Phoenix looks awesome as does The Rook


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## The Big Peat (Oct 18, 2016)

I think a certain problem with this question, at least as posed, is that the title and the opening post address two slightly different things.

Has Fantasy as an entire genre got stuck in the mud? No. The genre is broader than ever.

Has Fantasy in the vein of Erikson got stuck in the mud? I think yes. I think Epic Fantasy is, by and large, stuck on the stories told by Tolkien and Moorcock and is busy trying to retell them in ever greater detail with ever wilder coatings of paint. The architecture below remains the same though. I can't say that I read Abercrombie and fell the progress.

While I am unable to add many names, I am convinced that the OP can find a great many fantasies of the type he wants. But finding them within the Epic Fantasy field? That is a different kettle of fish.

And as such, I would recommend reading further into the genre. 

That is, assuming I took the right cue from him saying he likes books in the vein of Erikson.


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## Elventine (Oct 18, 2016)

The Big Peat said:


> I think a certain problem with this question, at least as posed, is that the title and the opening post address two slightly different things.
> 
> Has Fantasy as an entire genre got stuck in the mud? No. The genre is broader than ever.
> 
> ...



*Rolls up sleeves and gets ready to defend my genre*

I have to say that I strongly disagree with this this idea that Epic fantasy is going know where as there is no epic fantasy being written anymore (or very little of it). The new genres have overtaken the good old fashioned and yes in some cases a little samey but that depended on what you read. 

The way I see it where fantasy has gotten stuck is in these new subgernes. They have grown very fast and have gotten very stylized very fast. Faster than they have grown in some cases. I mean what exactly is the deference between Glen Cook's Garret Files and Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden? Or for that matter the rest of the dark urban fantasy scene, they all seem very alike to the point where if you are reading on then pick up another, not sure you would know the difference. 

Same for grimdark fantasy, or what people think of when they think epic fantasy these days as few people write epic fantasy anymore. Grimdark is boring as boredom. G.R.R.M, Sanderson,  Joe Abercrombie,  Mark Lawrence,  Luke Scull, Glen Cook (the rest of his works), Brent Weeks? What exactly separates their books from one another?


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## Stewart Hotston (Oct 19, 2016)

@The Big Peat you see I find myself agreeing pretty wholeheartedly with @Elventine. Diversity of form doesn't necessarily translate into quality of substance. Personally, I don't need another supernatural police procedural - 10 of them is enough already...

You're right in that my OP was provocative, but hey, the discussion that's followed has been brilliant and has got me some good recommendations. BUT, I stand by my initial challenge - that fantasy's stuck in the mud. I'm not saying it's alone - you only have to read the plethora of 'historical fiction' that seems to be the Booker's only real genre for selection these days and the same accusation stands. Those books are very diverse but they're also self-selecting and bound by convention. 

When I ask if we're stuck in the mud (and I ask as a sometime writer of fantasy myself) I ask if the substance of the stories we're telling is stale. You could argue old tropes like Fantasy is a reflection of conservative ideals within western society, but I think that's unnuanced and lazy. However, when I wander into my local bookshop, the fantasy section is stocked with lookalikes. Sure some of the characters are female, or of colours other than white but, as a reader, I end up looking for the weird stuff. Finch by Vandermeer was like a shot of adrenaline - I literally couldn't wait to pick it up again each time I had to put it down. As I think about it, it seems to me more that Weird Fic is where authors are bridging between Sci Fi and epic Fantasy to ask really interesting questions via really smart stories. 

It could sound like I'm only interested in 'worthy' books. (I might be...) However, I love a bit of pulp just like the next person, but I do crave fresh takes, originality and turning stuff on its head, not for its own sake but because that's the heart of the writer concerned. 

As I write, I'm reminded of the Golem and the Djinn which is a fantastic novel, so is the Night Circus by Erin Morgernstern.


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## BAYLOR (Oct 19, 2016)

Check out Jack London's Novel  *The Star Rover    *Its his only fantasy novel, Its a straitjacketed Death Row Inmate who discovers he can Astral  Project himself into his past laves at will.  You can find in on Gutenberg

The Kane the Mystic Saga by Karl Edward Wagner  5 books

1. *Bloodstone 
2. Darkness Weaves
3. Dark Crusade 
4. Death Angels Shadow 
5. Nightwinds

The Dark World    *by Henry Kuttner
*
Black God's Kiss*  by C L Moore
*Magus Rex* by Jack Lovejoy
*John The Balladeer *  by Manley Wade Wellman

*Mythago Woods* by Robert Holdstock
*The Anubis Gate *by Tim Powers

*The House on the Borderland*   by William Hope Hodgson

*The High House*  and Its sequel *the False House  *    by James Stoddard

*The Forgotten Beasts* of Eld  by Patricia McKillip

*The Reign of Wizardry* By Jack Williamson

*The Ship of Ishtar*  by Abraham Merritt

*The City of the Singing Flame* and Its sequel story *Beyond the Singing Flame*  by Clark Ashton Smith

*The Dreaming Jewels * by  Theodore Sturgeon

*THe Broken Sword * by Poul Anderson

*And the Devil Will Drag You Under *  by Jack Chalker

*Tales From the  Dying Earth*  by Jack Vance

*Merlin's Ring *  by H Warner Munn


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## Stewart Hotston (Oct 19, 2016)

this post makes me happy


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## BAYLOR (Oct 19, 2016)

Stewart Hotston said:


> this post makes me happy



also of interest  
*
Lest Darkness Fall * by L . Sprague De Camp


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## Brian G Turner (Oct 19, 2016)

^ Those are classic books though, @BAYLOR, not modern ones.


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## The Big Peat (Oct 19, 2016)

Diversity of form does not necessarily equal quality of substance but it is something of a direct answer to your question 1. If fantasy is achieving ever greater diversity of form - and no, I don't include 10,000 Dresden clones to go with 10,000 LotR clones there - then yes its able to find new stories. Whether they're the new stories you're hoping for - or I'm hoping for - is besides the point.

The problem is, as you've encountered, wrinkling out the interesting stuff in a crowded market. That's part of the reason I drifted away from reading fantasy myself. I took the point of view that if new authors would serve me much the same as the old, I might as well stick with those I trust. I've dug out what people think is good in modern fantasy and mostly I've received more of the same. However, the dimensions of discussion are far wider than I thought fantasy was back in the day. E.g.

The Ballad of Black Tom - Victor LaValle

The Just City - Jo Walton

NK Jemisin - The Fifth Season

Robert Jackson Bennett - The City of Stairs


Note - none of these recommendations are personal but stuff I've remembered other people talking about and thought "I'll look at that some day".


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## Elventine (Oct 19, 2016)

Personally... I don't read modern fantasy for exactly the reason that @Stewart Hotston is asking about fantasy being stuck. I feel that everytime I look at the lists of new books being published and I am like "Meh, seen that five years ago".  It is all stupid. There is little or no substance to the plots let alone idea that will make me think at all, which is something I like in my fantasy. 

So I read the old stuff. I know that there is a thought out there that older fantasy is to samey but truth be told if you read the good stuff, even if they have cliques in them there is at least still something worth taking away from it.


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## Elventine (Oct 19, 2016)

If you really want some fantasy that will make you think about what it means to be human, what humanity needs to be, why we are, what we are, who we are and many other topics of thought try *Haruki Murakami's* novels. They are brilliant.


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## svalbard (Oct 19, 2016)

Surely the problem, if that is how we look at it, is that Fantasy is like any other genre such as crime, horror, drama etc. You get some brilliant stories, some good ones and plenty of samey ones. As a few of the posters have pointed out it is about seeking out the needles in the haystacks. It is also a matter of taste and time. For example Station Eleven got two mentions as a good story. Apart from a few memorable scenes in it I found the book immensely dull and pretty damned implausible. Give me The Road any day of the week. But that is taste.

City of Stairs I initially read a while back and found it as dull as dishwater. I returned to it a few months back and thoroughly enjoyed it. What was difference? Not too sure maybe just time and place suited for the second read through.


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## Stewart Hotston (Oct 19, 2016)

Elventine said:


> If you really want some fantasy that will make you think about what it means to be human, what humanity needs to be, why we are, what we are, who we are and many other topics of thought try *Haruki Murakami's* novels. They are brilliant.



He is probably my favourite living author. I particularly love the Wind-up Bird Chronicle - the only book ever to make me experience a cold sweat/feel that I was going to pass out on the tube because of a particularly unexpected and gruesome passage about two thirds of the way through.


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## BAYLOR (Oct 19, 2016)

Brian G Turner said:


> ^ Those are classic books though, @BAYLOR, not modern ones.



You can't beat a classic.


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## Stuart Suffel (Oct 19, 2016)

svalbard said:


> Surely the problem, if that is how we look at it, is that Fantasy is like any other genre such as crime, horror, drama etc. You get some brilliant stories, some good ones and plenty of samey ones. As a few of the posters have pointed out it is about seeking out the needles in the haystacks. It is also a matter of taste and time. For example Station Eleven got two mentions as a good story. Apart from a few memorable scenes in it I found the book immensely dull and pretty damned implausible. Give me The Road any day of the week. But that is taste.
> 
> City of Stairs I initially read a while back and found it as dull as dishwater. I returned to it a few months back and thoroughly enjoyed it. What was difference? Not too sure maybe just time and place suited for the second read through.


Exactly.

The only limitations to a genre, is the ones we as readers, impose upon it.


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## Elventine (Oct 20, 2016)

svalbard said:


> Surely the problem, if that is how we look at it, is that Fantasy is like any other genre such as crime, horror, drama etc. You get some brilliant stories, some good ones and plenty of samey ones. As a few of the posters have pointed out it is about seeking out the needles in the haystacks. It is also a matter of taste and time. For example Station Eleven got two mentions as a good story. Apart from a few memorable scenes in it I found the book immensely dull and pretty damned implausible. Give me The Road any day of the week. But that is taste.
> 
> City of Stairs I initially read a while back and found it as dull as dishwater. I returned to it a few months back and thoroughly enjoyed it. What was difference? Not too sure maybe just time and place suited for the second read through.



I have to agree with you. I often find that the books I think are wonderful are sadly looked upon as the bane of all bookness because they had a Hero... *gasp* and wizards! *clutches hart in mock shock* and are deemed dull and samey. But I don't think so. I think of the topics that are often underlying the plain wrapping then I see entirely different book.    



Stewart Hotston said:


> He is probably my favourite living author. I particularly love the Wind-up Bird Chronicle - the only book ever to make me experience a cold sweat/feel that I was going to pass out on the tube because of a particularly unexpected and gruesome passage about two thirds of the way through.



He is brilliant.. I have to say that my favorite novel of his is a Wild Sheep Chase. That book just had a sense of real unrealism that made you float through the world right until the end when it got you with a one two surprise and it was brilliant!


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## Gonk the Insane (Oct 20, 2016)

I'd never heard of Haruki Murakami, but he sounds great @Stewart Hotston and @Elventine. I found his first two books in a double volume on kindle though and just downloaded, so thanks for the recommendation.

Some of the best novels I've discovered have been from the stickied monthly "What have you been reading" thread in General Book Discussion. I've discovered lots of authors and novels that would have otherwise passed me by. I'm terrible at remembering who recommended them but grateful nonetheless.


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## thaddeus6th (Oct 20, 2016)

Lots of good suggestions. Not sure I've seen the Codex Alera by Jim Butcher. Very enjoyable six book series. 

I tend not to review fiction much any more, but did back when I read these. Five years ago. Blimey.

Anyway, here's the review of the first one [can see the rest by clicking the Codex Alera tag at the end]: Thaddeus the Sixth: Review: The Furies of Calderon (Codex Alera 1), by Jim Butcher


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## WaylanderToo (Oct 20, 2016)

Gonk the Insane said:


> _Sandman Slim_ by Richard Kadrey:
> Ultra-violent, ultra-sweary Urban Fantasy. If Motorhead were a book, this is the book they'd be.



SOLD!!! If Motorhead were a book... brilliant  (as an aside I've been meaning to pick this up some time)



thaddeus6th said:


> Lots of good suggestions. Not sure I've seen the Codex Alera by Jim Butcher. Very enjoyable six book series.
> 
> I tend not to review fiction much any more, but did back when I read these. Five years ago. Blimey.
> 
> Anyway, here's the review of the first one [can see the rest by clicking the Codex Alera tag at the end]: Thaddeus the Sixth: Review: The Furies of Calderon (Codex Alera 1), by Jim Butcher




Another 'like' for the Codex Alert. 

Surprised that no one has mentioned David Gemmell's yet. I guess you could call it 'realistic fantasy'.

In a more light-hearted vein you could always try Robert Asperin's MYTHinc series or Dragons McCardle series (yes they're fluff, but fluff is needed sometimes), he also wrote Thieves World but I've not tried yet so am unable to comment


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## BAYLOR (Mar 10, 2017)

Fantasy can always be reinvented.


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## AStormCloud'sSong (Mar 10, 2017)

In some ways, yes, fantasy is stuck in the mud but no more than any other genre to be honest. For example, young adult fiction usually has a love triangle with a heaping side of teen angst thrown in, crime fiction has a crime, then clues, and a twist, and dystopian, a subset of science fiction, usually involves a normal person rising up a totalitarian regime.

I don't necessarily think following a formula is bad if you do it well and put your own unique spin on it. And of course, there are writers in all genres who actively try to break the formula. Neil Gaiman, China Mieville, and NK Jemisin are a few modern fantasy writers who do that.


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## Paul_C (Mar 10, 2017)

As a modern variation on sword and sorcery fantasy I thought Richard Morgan's *The Steel Remains* was a good read, not picked up the following two books yet but I will eventually.


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## BAYLOR (Jun 20, 2021)

Some day, we'l get throwback heroic fantasy.


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## svalbard (Jun 20, 2021)

Well if you have anything to do about it Baylor you will be at the centre of it.


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## DrStrangelove (Jun 20, 2021)

For me the best example of an active fantasy writer that proves the genre can stay fresh and open for new ideas is Brandon Sanderson. I particularly enjoy his scientific approach towards writing magic, creating a well balanced system of laws and consequences governing his settings in a manner that would normally suit a science-fiction book.

While I never particularly enjoyed classic fantasy novels, outside maybe from the first Malazan and the Wheel of Time (which Sanderson actually finished), I really admire his style.


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## BAYLOR (Jun 20, 2021)

DrStrangelove said:


> For me the best example of an active fantasy writer that proves the genre can stay fresh and open for new ideas is Brandon Sanderson. I particularly enjoy his scientific approach towards writing magic, creating a well balanced system of laws and consequences governing his settings in a manner that would normally suit a science-fiction book.
> 
> While I never particularly enjoyed classic fantasy novels, outside maybe from the first Malazan and the Wheel of Time (which Sanderson actually finished), I really admire his style.



Have you ever read Karl Edward Wagner Kane the Mystic swordsman  series ?


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## DrStrangelove (Jun 20, 2021)

BAYLOR said:


> Have you ever read Karl Edward Wagner Kane the Mystic swordsman  series ?


Seeing the title I had the immediate association with Legacy of Kain series, and I see I wasn't that far in my judgment - the internet claims that the main character is also heavily inspired by Elric of Melniboné.

I will most certainly check it out in the near future.


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## BAYLOR (Jun 20, 2021)

DrStrangelove said:


> Seeing the title I had the immediate association with Legacy of Kain series, and I see I wasn't that far in my judgment - the internet claims that the main character is also heavily inspired by Elric of Melniboné.
> 
> I will most certainly check it out in the near future.



Kane is an immortal and,  not a traditional hero, he more of antihero type character. He not a nice person at all but , he an interesting character.  This is a  dark fantasy series comprised  of 5 books 
*1. Bloodstone 
2. Darkness Weaves 
3. Dark Crusade 
4. Death Angels Shadow 
5. Night Winds *

The series has both gothic and lovocratainj  elements . Thought Bloodstone is listed as book 2 , Its book you should start with.    It interesting that you mention Elric of Melnibone . The last Kane story that wager wrote* A Gothic Touch  *It can be found in the Anthology *Elric Tales of the White Wolf*  In this story Kane meet Elric of Melinibone and Moon Glum. it seem he has need of Stormbringer 

Wagner also wrote Conan the road Of Kings an excellent Conan pastiche  and *Bran Mak Morn The Legion from the Shadow.  *A pastiche of another Howard character Bran man Morn and this too is excellent book 

*Killer *which he court with David drake 
*In a Lonely Place  *is an anthology of his best horror stories 
*Echos of Valor I, II  and III*.  in this trolley anthology  Wager presents heroic fantasy stories well known and less known .   *Echos of Valor III  *in particular contain s 3  excellent stories by a man named Nictzen Dyhalis .  who is very little known given that he only wrote  11 fantasy  stories in all. 

Unrelated but you find this of interest.  

*The Star Rover* by Jack London This book is his only fantasy novel , It largely unknown aan unlike all his other novels . Ks about straitjacketed DeathRow in mate who discover via transcendental mediation that he can not only lever his body but can astral project himself into his past lives at will. This is book. epic in scope scale , takes you across time ,space and history . Its great book and can be found online via Project Gutenberg .


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## Mon0Zer0 (Jun 20, 2021)

Resurrecting an old post here but...



Stewart Hotston said:


> When people talk about diversity though I tend to experience this as there simply being people with different skins or sexes but they tend to have exactly the same preoccupations as all the other characters, which are generally filtered through the dominant cultural starting point. By that I don't mean it's specifically racist (which it isn't) nor sexist (again, it's not) it just seems to miss the fact that peoples from other cultures and backgrounds really don't necessarily think like I do. I always run a Franz Fanon test - namely do all the characters namely think about the world in the same way? If they do then it's failed to actually get the point of diversity. (Franz Fanon was a French/Algerian writer who wrote the 'Wretched of the Earth' in response to the Algerian revolution and made the profound point that other people actually don't want to be like us and part of their rebellion is a rejection of everything we stand for not simply the every day injustices they suffered at their colonial rulers' hands.)



Publishers seem to be getting behind this over the last few years. There's a whole raft of African fantasy or Afrofuturism that was bubbling under the surface for a long time and brought to the mainstream by Black Panther.

Books by Tomi Adeyami, Reni K Amayo, Evan Winters, Antoine Bandele and so on.


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## chongjasmine (Jul 14, 2021)

I think fantasy is more diverse nowsaday than before, although I prefer to read epic fantasy.


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## Guttersnipe (Aug 18, 2021)

Fantasy will never be stuck--only fantasy writers. It consists of nigh infinite possibilities.


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## scholar-in-distress (Aug 26, 2021)

Guttersnipe said:


> Fantasy will never be stuck--only fantasy writers. It consists of nigh infinite possibilities.


Agreed. Fantasy is nothing new, and humans' brains are wired to have storytelling practices, so fantasy will always be there and as established by Thor's adventure with stolen mead, some bards (writers) will be fantastic (pun intended) while others may be crappy ones. But the stories will go on, so the genre as such will not, imho, be stuck in a mud. By the way of which, have you heard that Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickmann are to release some new Dragonlance (classic era) content?


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## BAYLOR (Oct 9, 2021)

And D and D is not going away.


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