# Lost history if it ain't on Google



## Danny McG (Mar 31, 2017)

I was trying to find out online about some WW2 history that I know happened as I was shown proof. However, probaby 'cos it wasn't seen as significant in any way, it was never recorded and now the man with the proof is long dead.
What happened was, as a young craft apprentice in the coal mines a long time ago, I spent some time with different sections of the industry to broaden my training experience.
For a while I was on the surface with a repair dept. This was in late seventies and I was privileged to be working with a lot of men who'd saw active service in WW2.
One day they all were swapping war stories and, not to be outdone, a dwarf who was part of the team joined in the yarns.
Some doubt was cast on his involvement so next day he arrived with a battered old photo album.
It seems that, during the First World War there was a height restriction and men under that were excused service until a national campaign which then let them join up.
However, in the Second World War, my old work colleague was instead sent off to a 'special' troop made up of dwarves. They were used as camp guards for Axis POW's in Scotland.
His photo album was full of pictures of him and his squad mates, sometimes with a standard size corporal, going about their duties with rifles almost as tall as they were.
He said a lot of Luftwaffe got very indignant about being guarded and roll called by dwarves, they took it as an insult.
He had photo's of lines of German prisoners marching about with a much younger him and others escorting the prisoners.
As I said, no records exist nowadays, only references to World War One can be found.

Forgotten History


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## tinkerdan (Mar 31, 2017)

My experience with Google is that it has deteriorated from greed.
The search engine aggressively parses your search to match it with Google analytic customers first and shoves those to the top and first pages.
You have to get both creative and specific; however sometimes that fails when it selectively throws out the most important words in your search.

There may yet be hope- you just need to find the right approach.

On the other hand if you could somehow locate this original information it would make a great entry for wikipedia.


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## mosaix (Mar 31, 2017)

Use a different search engine.


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## Danny McG (Mar 31, 2017)

mosaix said:


> Use a different search engine.



Think I'll do that for a day or two just to see what turns up. Google is indeed a bit selective in the info it shows


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## Brian G Turner (Mar 31, 2017)

It would certainly be helpful to know which POW camp - a quick search suggests there were quite a lot in Scotland:
Secret Scotland - PoW Camp Summary WW II

It's possible that if you write to the Home Office you might get some more details or pointers?

I've been reading quite a few German WWII autobiographies, but I've been focused on the Werhmacht and SS, and avoiding Luftwaffe and naval ones. If I do see anything come up, though, I'll come back to this thread.


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## J Riff (Mar 31, 2017)

Lots history and books is gonzo, well before the internet came along. Stuff from the sixties even. There are people who have absolutely no respect for history or the past.


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## BionicGriff (Mar 31, 2017)

I think I might have found something for you, Bantam Battalions.

Bantams: The army units for those under 5ft 3in - BBC News


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## Dave (Mar 31, 2017)

My first reaction was that it sounded like the plot of a Tarantino film 

My second is that you can't really blame Google if the information doesn't exist online! Not all records are online, not all have even been digitised, not by a very long shot! Documents are digiitised on the basis of how popular they will be, and how much money they can make for the company doing the transcribing. Having said that WW1 and WW2 documents are very popular.

The problem with WW2 secret operations is that many remained top secret in the UK right up until the 1980's, and by that time many of the people involved had died. The work at Bletchley Park is a case in point. Most people have heard about Enigma, the Bombes and Alan Turing. Fewer people have heard of Tommy Flowers and Colossus, and so many people think that the USA had the world's first programmable electronic computer.

If you are really the only person left that knows this story then you need to document it. Write what you remember he told you down on paper, or get an interview recorded for the British Library Oral History section. More likely, there are documents surviving in the National Archives at Kew. There are probably documents there that no one has ever looked at since they were deposited.


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## tinkerdan (Mar 31, 2017)

Here is an article about wwI
Bantams: The army units for those under 5ft 3in - BBC News
Use of men under 5' 3" (160cm)

So you would think that you could find something about your group.


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## Susan Boulton (Apr 1, 2017)

Try your local library they might be able to point you in the direction of some information.

Local historical groups.

Get in touch with a WWII re-enactment group, they might have links to information. ditto for a WWII forum online.

Try the National Archives in London.

I used all the above while researching  Hand of Glory.

Actually used google very little, as a lot of information online can be a bit iffy at times, especially local information.


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## mosaix (Apr 1, 2017)

dannymcg said:


> Think I'll do that for a day or two just to see what turns up. Google is indeed a bit selective in the info it shows


Try Duck Duck Go.


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## Dave (Apr 1, 2017)

I also hate the changes to Google but another reason for not finding things is that many "good" information sources are now hidden behind 'pay-per-view' walls or 'academia' walls. For instance, there are lots of old Newspapers available at FindMyPast, which grow in number each and every day. When I was studying last year I had complete access to the Bodleian Library and the resources available there are mind-blowing. On the other hand, Wikipedia is usually what appears first in any Google search, and I think enough said.


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## tinkerdan (Apr 3, 2017)

This is horribly ironic::


Dave said:


> I also hate the changes to Google but another reason for not finding things is that many "good" information sources are now hidden behind 'pay-per-view' walls or 'academia' walls. For instance, there are lots of old Newspapers available at FindMyPast, which grow in number each and every day. When I was studying last year I had complete access to the Bodleian Library and the resources available there are mind-blowing. On the other hand, Wikipedia is usually what appears first in any Google search, and I think enough said.


::Back in the mid to early 80 the universities already had a network between universities for easy exchange of information and they were expanding what would be the ether-network across the US again for that rapid exchange of information. This is what grew into the supposed free environment that was fostered at that time within the internet.

So now it seems that that information comes at a price, maybe a bit of bait and switch going on here.


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## BigBadBob141 (Jun 14, 2017)

Yes I've heard of the Bantams.
I could be wrong, but I think it's possible Frederick The Great started a Giants Regiment.
This was in the Prussian Army, all the men in it were 6' or 6'6'' minimum in height!
Pretty sure this was mentioned on Q.I.


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## Danny McG (Jun 14, 2017)

Hiya BBB, yeah the Bantams were fairly easy to get info on. I went to local library and archive but they too only had info on the first world war dwarves and short people - nothing about WW2.
The man had a good set of b&w photo's showing them doing various soldiering with rifles almost the same height as them.
Suppose once the last person who saw that album passes on then that bit of history will be gone forever


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## Dave (Jun 14, 2017)

So, you should write an article on what you know. Research everything that is available. Publish it in a local history society journal. You won't make any money but they love exactly that kind of thing, and you will have made sure that it is recorded for posterity.

As for the other points about the Internet becoming commercial and the price of information, that is our modern age. Information is more easily available and still cheaper to access, but control of the supply of information is also power.


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## Vladd67 (Jun 14, 2017)

Have you checked on any history forums such as Historum.com or armchairgeneral?


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## Danny McG (Jun 14, 2017)

Vladd67 said:


> Have you checked on any history forums such as Historum.com or armchairgeneral?



I had looked on the Hist one but tbh I've never heard of armchair general. Gonna check it out now


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## Vladd67 (Jun 14, 2017)

If you do research and write an article post it as a blog on Historum and it might end up in their quarterly journal, I was surprised when my little history of fish and chips ended up there.
Historum Quarterly Journal of History Vol. 1 No. 2  2012


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## Danny McG (Jun 14, 2017)

That is awesomely cool.
Think I'll try and do a bit more digging into this. Wish I'd paid a bit more attention to him now, however I was only a young lad at work back then and my mind was more on nights out and sport


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