# Nasa Mars rover finds organic matter in ancient lake bed



## Ursa major (Jun 7, 2018)

Nasa’s veteran Curiosity rover has found complex organic matter buried and preserved in ancient sediments that formed a vast lake bed on Mars more than 3bn years ago, according to a report in the Grauniad. It goes on to say that:





> Researchers cannot tell how the organic material formed and so leave open the crucial question: are the compounds remnants of past organisms; the product of chemical reactions with rocks; or were they brought to Mars in comets or other falling debris that slammed into the surface?


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## Alexa (Jun 8, 2018)

I saw this on the news. What I would like to know is if Mars has recent organic matter. 3bn years ago is long, long, looong time ago.

Maybe Curiosity can find those green martians hiding underground ?


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## Onyx (Jun 8, 2018)

They've found amino acids in comets. What's "complex organic matter"?


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## BAYLOR (Jun 8, 2018)

Perhaps they might find life next ?


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## Brian G Turner (Jun 8, 2018)

The general media reports show horrible spin to try and make the story interesting - the following looks like the original piece, but frustratingly there's nothing about the actual sample itself, simply analysis of a heated sample:

Organic matter preserved in 3-billion-year-old mudstones at Gale crater, Mars


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## dask (Jun 8, 2018)

So, have they actually and unequivocally found liquid water on Mars yet?


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## Vladd67 (Jun 8, 2018)

Here’s what NASA say.
NASA Finds Ancient Organic Material, Mysterious Methane on Mars


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## Venusian Broon (Jun 8, 2018)

Brian G Turner said:


> The general media reports show horrible spin to try and make the story interesting - the following looks like the original piece, but frustratingly there's nothing about the actual sample itself, simply analysis of a heated sample:
> 
> Organic matter preserved in 3-billion-year-old mudstones at Gale crater, Mars



Heating the sample and analysing the volatiles that it produces is all they can really do with a small rover. To actually analyse the rock you would probably need a proper chemical lab with a human.


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## Venusian Broon (Jun 8, 2018)

dask said:


> So, have they actually and unequivocally found liquid water on Mars yet?


I very much doubt they will find actual liquid water on the surface of Mars. You'd probably have to dig pretty deep, something a rover is not going to be able to do. 

That it had water on the surface at some point in the past is, I believe, very likely given the evidence of water erosion and the some of rocks that they've found.


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## Alexa (Jun 8, 2018)

They found only traces Mars had water in the past.


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## night_wrtr (Jun 8, 2018)

Venusian Broon said:


> I very much doubt they will find actual liquid water on the surface of Mars. You'd probably have to dig pretty deep, something a rover is not going to be able to do.
> 
> That it had water on the surface at some point in the past is, I believe, very likely given the evidence of water erosion and the some of rocks that they've found.



Is it not possible to sample the water ice at the polar cap?


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## Venusian Broon (Jun 8, 2018)

night_wrtr said:


> Is it not possible to sample the water ice at the polar cap?


Apparently so 

But the original post asked about liquid water . 

Looking it up, the atmospheric pressure is so low that liquid water can't exist on the surface


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## dask (Jun 8, 2018)

Edited out of existence.


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## dask (Jun 8, 2018)

night_wrtr said:


> Is it not possible to sample the water ice at the polar cap?


Well, this is the next best thing. So, we know for sure ice exists on Mars, no holds barred frozen H20? Have we or are we going to send a rover over to check it out?


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## night_wrtr (Jun 8, 2018)

dask said:


> Well, this is the next best thing. So, we know for sure ice exists on Mars, no holds barred frozen H20? Have we or are we going to send a rover over to check it out?



It would more than likely have to be a new rover mission. I don't think Curiosity is anywhere near the ice caps(someone smarter than me will have to do the math on how far away the rover is), and seeing how  Curiosity has only traveled like 12 miles so far, it would be a while before it made it there.


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## Venusian Broon (Jun 8, 2018)

dask said:


> Well, this is the next best thing. So, we know for sure ice exists on Mars, no holds barred frozen H20? Have we or are we going to send a rover over to check it out?



Part of Curiosity's mission was to check out the habitability of the spot they landed at so there must be other reasons for wanting to check out that spot.

Maybe the polar regions are a bit too cold or variable for a human settlement? And perhaps they want a spot that gets more sunlight? For solar power?


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## Stephen Palmer (Jun 8, 2018)

What they've basically done is rule out one of the non-organic sources of methane.
So that's a positive.


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## dask (Jun 8, 2018)

I'm no expert, obviously, but it seems to me that a microscopic examination of some of that Martian water would be of above average importance.


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## Onyx (Jun 8, 2018)

dask said:


> I'm no expert, obviously, but it seems to me that a microscopic examination of some of that Martian water would be of above average importance.


Polar ice tends to collect from either evaporation turning into precipitation, which deposits incredibly clean H20 ice, or from cometary ice that has fallen from deep space. Neither are likely to cause Mars life to be trapped in the ice. Permafrost nearer the equator would be a much more likely place to bother to look for life in the ice.


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## dask (Jun 8, 2018)

So an examination of a cup of water from our polar I've caps would likely yield nothing in the way of life?


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## EJDeBrun (Jun 8, 2018)

It's about -153C at the poles of Mars. Now granted, things work in space just fine, but I think that the temperature and conditions at the poles, plus the dangers of ice slippages etc etc when landing a rover on the poles has played a large part as to why they're putting off that kind of research. The first goal, right now anyways, is to try to find a way to get humans to the planet.

Considering all other insane factors like fluctuating atmospheric pressures and the sheer fineness of the dust, I do think it'll be quite a while before we get people to the surface.


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## Onyx (Jun 8, 2018)

dask said:


> So an examination of a cup of water from our polar I've caps would likely yield nothing in the way of life?


Unless it is a frozen lake, it is unlikely to have much of anything in it - just like our polar and glacier ice.


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## Venusian Broon (Jun 8, 2018)

dask said:


> So an examination of a cup of water from our polar I've caps would likely yield nothing in the way of life?



I have heard of examples of extremophiles here on Earth that can tolerate living amongst/in ice, but the Martian poles are a very harsh environment compared to anything Earth has. The temperatures are very low and that would make any extremophiles that can survive it, well, pretty darn extreme.

Remember, carbon dioxide from the atmosphere freezes out and blankets the water ice on both poles when they have their winters. So that's a whole season that probably averages about -125 degrees C.

But they are complex systems, these poles. Maybe at there bases of these ice caps (they are about 2-3km thick) something interesting is happening? Mind you, how to get there would be a very big technical problem.


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## BAYLOR (Jun 8, 2018)

Venusian Broon said:


> I very much doubt they will find actual liquid water on the surface of Mars. You'd probably have to dig pretty deep, something a rover is not going to be able to do.
> 
> That it had water on the surface at some point in the past is, I believe, very likely given the evidence of water erosion and the some of rocks that they've found.



Perhaps there might be underground caverns with bodies of water, maybe even underground ecosystems with some form of life. It's just a thought.


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## Onyx (Jun 8, 2018)

BAYLOR said:


> Perhaps there might be underground caverns with bodies of water, maybe even underground ecosystems with some form of life. It's just a thought.


On a planet with no tectonics, magnetism or daily temperature anywhere close to the melting point of water, what would be keeping this water liquid? Europa, for instance, is heated in part by tidal forces. What mechanism are you proposing to heat Mars' water?


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## BAYLOR (Jun 8, 2018)

Onyx said:


> On a planet with no tectonics, magnetism or daily temperature anywhere close to the melting point of water, what would be keeping this water liquid? Europa, for instance, is heated in part by tidal forces. What mechanism are you proposing to heat Mars' water?



Some have suggested that Mars core has not completely  cooled off, What if there  are  places where there might be just enough heat to sustain life ? This is not an a complete impossibility .   Have you ever heard organisms called  Tardigrades ( Waterbeare)? that can exist in the vacuum of space? Thye can sit in very hostile conditions. Why couldn't Mars have give his to something similar?


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## Venusian Broon (Jun 8, 2018)

Onyx said:


> On a planet with no tectonics, magnetism or daily temperature anywhere close to the melting point of water, what would be keeping this water liquid? Europa, for instance, is heated in part by tidal forces. What mechanism are you proposing to heat Mars' water?



It is theorised from the evidence gathered that the temperature of the core of Mars is up to ~1500 Kelvin. See: Lab study indicates Mars has a molten core

Thus there will be a gradient of temperature between the core and the surface and I suppose a band that will easily allow liquid water. It may be, however, be very deep beneath the surface. But then again we've found extremophiles quite deep in the Earth's crust utilising radioactivity as a 'power source' so Baylor's speculation isn't totally out of the park.


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## Onyx (Jun 9, 2018)

BAYLOR said:


> Some have suggested that Mars core has not completely  cooled off, What if there  are  places where there might be just enough heat to sustain life ? This is not an a complete impossibility .   Have you ever heard organisms called  Tardigrades ( Waterbeare)? that can exist in the vacuum of space? Thye can sit in very hostile conditions. Why couldn't Mars have give his to something similar?


Tardigrades can survive exposure to vacuum, they can't carry out life processes in vacuum or ice.

If there is liquid water on Mars, it could have life. The first part is the problem. If the water is so deep that it liquid, it is under so much pressure we likely couldn't even get to it.


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## Stephen Palmer (Jun 9, 2018)

Plus, tardigrades are a product of billions of years of evolution on a habitable planet.


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## Venusian Broon (Jun 9, 2018)

It's just a video of Scott Manley driving...but he discusses the news from Mars. 

He's a youtuber that does a bit of gaming (like Kerbal Space Program) but he's enthusiastic about astronomy and space as well and dips into real life about those topics regularly.

Goes into a bit more depth than the news articles.


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## Onyx (Jun 9, 2018)

So they've found a molecule with roughly half the complexity of sucrose but with twice the carbon of an amino acid, putting it in a more complex category than the aminos they've found in comets.


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## night_wrtr (Jun 13, 2018)

Speaking of Curiosity, it is not responding at the moment due to a dust storm on mars. Dust Storm. Looks like it is so thick that it is unable to charge its batteries, even to send a signal back home.

This is the image of the sun from its view as the storm came in:


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## Vertigo (Jun 14, 2018)

night_wrtr said:


> Speaking of Curiosity, it is not responding at the moment due to a dust storm on mars. Dust Storm. Looks like it is so thick that it is unable to charge its batteries, even to send a signal back home.
> 
> This is the image of the sun from its view as the storm came in:


I think you'll find this is Opportunity rather than Curiosity, a rover landed in 2004 (I think) and expected to operate for "a few weeks" but is (hopefully not was) still going strong (one or two issues; can only drive in reverse and it's manipulator arm is getting "arthritic"). Curiosity does not run on rechargeable batteries or solar power it uses a nuclear battery which would be unaffected by the dust storm (though it might hunker down as comms with Earth might be blocked). Opportunity on the other hand relies on solar power to maintain its battery charge. With the storm blocking the light it goes into a sleep mode waking up periodically to see if the situation has improved.


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## night_wrtr (Jun 14, 2018)

You're 100% right, @Vertigo. It is indeed Opportunity. Apparently it has gone through a dust storm before that lasted two weeks, so here's to hoping that it survives.


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## Vertigo (Jun 14, 2018)

I guess the biggest risk is that the solar cells get too covered in dust to function. I seem to remember this being a fear in the last dust storm Opportunity survived.

I still find it extraordinary that a rover designed to last 90 days (I checked this time) has lasted 15 years. That's a real testament to the people who built it!


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## night_wrtr (Jun 14, 2018)

Vertigo said:


> I guess the biggest risk is that the solar cells get too covered in dust to function. I seem to remember this being a fear in the last dust storm Opportunity survived.
> 
> I still find it extraordinary that a rover designed to last 90 days (I checked this time) has lasted 15 years. That's a real testament to the people who built it!



Pretty remarkable. The article mentioned that if it has a loss of power for an extended period it would prevent the heaters from protecting the electronics from the cold, as they think that's what killed the Spirit rover(doubled checked to make sure I got that name right!).


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## 2DaveWixon (Jun 14, 2018)

Onyx said:


> They've found amino acids in comets. What's "complex organic matter"?


Well, probably something less appetizing than a ham and cheese sandwich -- unless someone's been picnicking on Mars.
But I wonder if we're not overfocusing on that word "organic"? When we use that term, don't we evoke connotations of connections to life? Whereas in fact with billions of years for elements to interact with each other, "organic"-like chemicals might be created randomly...
These findings may prove that chemistry, out of simple randomness, sometimes advances in the direction of life. But the finding of the "organic" chemicals does not mean that life was there to create those "organic" substances.
I do believe this news, however, greatly strengthens the case for life developing in many places across the universe; apparently all it takes is elements and energy and time...


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## Vertigo (Jun 14, 2018)

2DaveWixon said:


> Well, probably something less appetizing than a ham and cheese sandwich -- unless someone's been picnicking on Mars.
> But I wonder if we're not overfocusing on that word "organic"? When we use that term, don't we evoke connotations of connections to life? Whereas in fact with billions of years for elements to interact with each other, "organic"-like chemicals might be created randomly...
> These findings may prove that chemistry, out of simple randomness, sometimes advances in the direction of life. But the finding of the "organic" chemicals does not mean that life was there to create those "organic" substances.
> I do believe this news, however, greatly strengthens the case for life developing in many places across the universe; apparently all it takes is elements and energy and time...


Yes I believe in scientific terms organic compounds are pretty much any compound that contains carbon, more commonly though I believe it generally refers to any compound that contains carbon-hydrogen bonds, which covers an awful lot of stuff that is not necessarily derived from any kind of life. There's a tendency to assume that once organic chemicals are mentioned we are getting close to life, but, sadly, I'm afraid that's not necessarily the case.


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## Venusian Broon (Jun 14, 2018)

2DaveWixon said:


> But I wonder if we're not overfocusing on that word "organic"? When we use that term, don't we evoke connotations of connections to life? Whereas in fact with billions of years for elements to interact with each other, "organic"-like chemicals might be created randomly...



Basically wot Vertigo said. It's just a word to describe a large number of carbon-based compounds; many of which are made by organic 'life' processes, but also many which aren't. 



2DaveWixon said:


> These findings may prove that chemistry, out of simple randomness, sometimes advances in the direction of life. But the finding of the "organic" chemicals does not mean that life was there to create those "organic" substances.



Indeed, given the right conditions and whether by life or otherwise, I believe carbon loves to hold hands with all sorts of other atoms to form quite complex molecules. 

Indeed one account of abiogenesis would require the first oceans and seas of the planet being a 'soup' of large amounts of organic material, largely created by non-organic processes, and this being the first food/source of energy for the first true life.  

So it's a tantalising clue that perhaps, when Mars was young, with a thick atmosphere and a sizeable water ocean, could have had the conditions that _may_ have allowed carbon based life to develop. 

But I highlight all the ifs, buts, perhaps, maybes and speculates. There's still potentially many other explanations that just don't involve any life at all. It's just a tiny piece in the vast overall jigsaw.  



2DaveWixon said:


> I do believe this news, however, greatly strengthens the case for life developing in many places across the universe; apparently all it takes is elements and energy and time...



The way I'd think about it, is that most science advances usually by small steps. If Curiosity had drilled down and _not _found any organic matter then our view of the chances of Mars ever having life as we know it, would clearly have dropped. 

(I hope they haven't, like the Russian Venera 14*, had a piece of Curiosity somehow get contaminated into the sample, like a bit of plastic, and they've analysed that )


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* They designed a lens cap system that was ejected as soon as the craft had landed on the Venusian surface. Unfortunately it ended up underneath the Surface Compressibility Tester Arm and when they ran that experiment they got the compressibility result for a lens cap.


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## BAYLOR (Jun 24, 2018)

Imagine if we could really find life on Mars. It would be a wonderful moment because it would be proof that life exists in other place in the universe. We would no longer be alone.


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## Venusian Broon (Jul 25, 2018)

Venusian Broon said:


> But they are complex systems, these poles. Maybe at there bases of these ice caps (they are about 2-3km thick) something interesting is happening?



Mars: huge underground lake raises prospects of life on planet, astronomers say

Well, I didn't predict anything in particular, but I'm still taking a gold star for that


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## Vertigo (Jul 25, 2018)

Venusian Broon said:


> Mars: huge underground lake raises prospects of life on planet, astronomers say
> 
> Well, I didn't predict anything in particular, but I'm still taking a gold star for that



Shame it's so salty though: 'Bridges suspects the salty conditions in the Martian water might be too much to survive. “I think it’s really, really stretching the envelope of potential life to bursting point,” he said.'


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## Venusian Broon (Jul 25, 2018)

Vertigo said:


> Shame it's so salty though: 'Bridges suspects the salty conditions in the Martian water might be too much to survive. “I think it’s really, really stretching the envelope of potential life to bursting point,” he said.'




True, but we do know of extreme Halophiles that actually need salinities of 20-25% (and I believe other extremophiles have been recorded at higher levels), and perhaps if you've had a billion years of evolution with only that sort of environment, perhaps there might be a few cells down there eking out a living! 

Still, as I also thought_: “Getting there and acquiring the final evidence that this is indeed a lake will not be an easy task,” said Orosei. “It will require flying a robot there which is capable of drilling through 1.5km of ice and this will certainly require some technological developments that at the moment are not available.”_


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## Vertigo (Jul 25, 2018)

We seem to have this conversation running on two separate threads: Big Water On Mars!


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## Venusian Broon (Jul 25, 2018)

Vertigo said:


> We seem to have this conversation running on two separate threads: Big Water On Mars!



I was just highlighting my astute observations on this thread


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## 2DaveWixon (Jul 25, 2018)

BAYLOR said:


> Imagine if we could really find life on Mars. It would be a wonderful moment because it would be proof that life exists in other place in the universe. We would no longer be alone.


we' re not alone. We have Chrons, and each other.


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## BAYLOR (Jul 25, 2018)

2DaveWixon said:


> we' re alone. We have Chrons, and each other.




Yeah, we're doomed.


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## 2DaveWixon (Jul 25, 2018)

I left out a "not" in that comment. I'm sorry if that omission has depressed you. (I didn't think it was that heavy...)


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