# Science Experiment - Personality type and atheism/agnosticism/belief



## The Procrastinator (Jun 30, 2008)

OK, we're probably going to have a small sample size and a fair bit of unsubstantiated opinion, but what else is new. 

*Aim*: _to determine if there is a link between personality type (Myers-Briggs, for the sake of the experiment) and belief or non-belief._

*Hypothesis*: (for the sake of argument) _F's are more prone to belief than T's. T's are more likely to be atheists than F's._

For those who are unfamiliar with the Myers-Briggs test, this page has a pretty good explanation: MBTI Personality Test: Understanding Your MBTI or Myers Briggs Personality Type , although there are many other pages online - just google. Descriptions of the 16 types can be found on this site, but there are many others online as well, and if you're unsure its best to read from a few different sites.

A free Myers-Briggs style personality test, with spectrum-style answers rather than those annoying yes's and no's, can be found here: Free Jung Personality Test 

The point of Myers-Briggs is basically that a lot of our differences (and similarities for that matter) are because of our personalities, and the different ways we perceive, relate to and react to the world. No type is superior or inferior to another. 

As I am proposing this experiment I will go first.

I am INFP (I have read somewhere that INFP's are particularly drawn to personality tests, ha ha!). That puts me in the F camp. I would classify myself as prone to belief, although I am not a religious person (I tried it but it didn't take). Mind you I'm not sure what I believe in, if anything - certainly nothing approaching conventional religious ideas - but I feel that there is _something _and I have done so since I was small. I feel a connection to other living things, including trees and so on, the web of life blah blah, but I'm not sure what it means. Being a P, I am quite content with the mystery. I am not an atheist.


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## Lioness (Jun 30, 2008)

Lol...love the question in the second test...'I am weird'

but that one gave me a diffrerent answer than the first one did, and I'll go with the first one as it backs the results I've had before.

INFP

And I'm agnostic, if not athiest. I'm more of the 'if you show me proof then I'll believe it but I'm not fully on either side' type


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## Delvo (Jun 30, 2008)

I'm a major bigtime T; it's the one of those four things on which I'm the most thoroughly, lopsidedly, all-out for one side and not its opposite. I routinely find myself in situations where people are trying to get me to say what I think or feel about something that I don't know enough about to think or feel anything about it, and they just don't want to accept "I don't know" or "nothing" as an answer, as if they don't believe it's even possible to really not have an answer. To me, this is a matter of simple honesty: I won't claim to have information that I don't have, and get irritated with people who do claim to have information they don't really have. It's similar when there really is enough information to support an answer but the answer doesn't seem to be what people wanted to hear or what they think people should think/say, or it goes against what they themselves would say (even if it comes directly from something else they say and thus exposes self-contradiction on their part). People often seem amazed to hear the steps of logic I go through to reach a conclusion and ask me why I bothered with all of that analysis (especially when they think my conclusion is too different from what I'm supposed to think/feel or what they want me to think/feel), but to me it isn't work, it's just how things naturally are to be done, and I can't imagine just skipping to the end and making something up without a real basis as they seem to want me to do.

I shock and confuzzle people by not only saying "I don't know" but also sometimes adding meaningless/incomprehensible (to them) things like "and you don't know either", to point out that what they're saying is just made up and not supportable from the facts, no matter how certain of it they act. They shock and confuzzle me by saying meaningless/incomprehensible (to me) things like "I don't understand how you could want to say that" when I hadn't been talking about what I _want_ at all but just laying out facts, which have nothing to do with what I want.

And I'm quite anti-religious, and it is because of exactly that F-ness of it, so you precisely hit the bullseye for me. All religion, spirituality, superstition, and such are based on bad logic and stuff that people just made up, and I can't stand bad logic and people making stuff up. Not long ago, when I said that to someone else, her reply was "Well, you can't know everything just through science and logic", to which my reply was "Right, only everything that you can actually know at all; anything you can't get from those is just made up, not known or knowable". And the holding back that I tend to do among the religious, to keep the peace by not jumping on how stupid and dishonest a lot of what their religions say is, feels just the same as the holding back that I tend to do among F-types in general on all kinds of issues where the T and F mentalities clash.

I'm an atheist because the facts of the world we live in are just as they would be if there were no gods, and completely different from what they would be if there were gods (unless those gods happened to be stealth gods who don't do anything to expose their existence, but invoking ad-hoc complications like that just to get around a desired conclusion's lack of similarity to the facts would be bad reasoning, and even then, I'd still have to conclude that those gods are such that their existence doesn't matter anyway because everything's the same as if they didn't; and one could even logically argue that existence which is no different from non-existence is no existence).


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## TheEndIsNigh (Jun 30, 2008)

INFP : apparently.


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## Lioness (Jun 30, 2008)

Join our ranks, TEIN!


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## Interference (Jun 30, 2008)

INTP - I'm in 3.3 percent of the population, if I read it right.  I quite like the implications, but seems I won't be joining your ranks, Lioness 

My position on faith?

Hmm ...

It's changed in the last couple of years.  I now think I know there's an absence of a guiding intelligence, but I still have a sense of connectedness between everything in the universe, something that Newton was determined to prove through science and to some extent I think he succeeded, though in other ways he missed the mark a bit.

This recent independence from a god concept is something I find liberating because, as I think I've said somewhere before, I know I'm the only one to blame for my screw-ups.  But I'm also the only one responsible for my achievements.  It has left my appreciation of beauty and the marvels of existence unmarred and, if anything, increased - if no aesthetic godhead put them there then isn't the awesome beauty of a waterfall even more remarkable?

Yeah.  I like that T just where it is 

(I enjoyed your rant, btw, Delvo )


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## mosaix (Jun 30, 2008)

ISTJ -  "Trustee". Decisiveness in practical affairs. Guardian of time-honored institutions. Dependable. 11.6% of total population. .

Atheist

BTW that was no rant from Delvo.  Just a cool, logical statement of his position.


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## Interference (Jun 30, 2008)

That's the J coming out of you, Mosaix


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## Pyan (Jun 30, 2008)

> ISTJ - "Trustee".




Introverted (I) 61.76% Extroverted (E) 38.24%
Sensing (S) 54.84% Intuitive (N) 45.16%
Thinking (T) 51.52% Feeling (F) 48.48%
Judging (J) 64.29% Perceiving (P) 35.71%

Hmmm...wonder if there's an age factor in there....


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## BookStop (Jun 30, 2008)

> ISTJ - "Trustee". Decisiveness in practical affairs. Guardian of time-honored institutions. Dependable. 11.6% of total population. .
> 
> Atheist


 
Me too. My j was pretty high. what's that supposed to mean?


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## HoopyFrood (Jun 30, 2008)

*INTP* - "Architect". Greatest precision in thought and language. Can readily discern contradictions and inconsistencies. The world exists primarily to be understood. 3.3% of total population.

I think that applies to me quite well, actually. 

Atheist.


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## Tillane (Jun 30, 2008)

*INTJ* - "Mastermind". Introverted intellectual with a preference for finding certainty. A builder of systems and the applier of theoretical models. 2.1% of total population

And a humanist who has (once or twice) been called an anti-theist.


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2008)

My firewall blocks the test-site...

By the age of seven (7), I'd noticed that organised religion was a load of tosh. Technically, I'd falsified the hypothesis...

My preference would be atheist, but honesty keeps me very, very slightly agnostic.


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## The Procrastinator (Jul 1, 2008)

Bookstop and Pyan, come on you logical T's, are you telling us you are ISTJ and then not fessing up to where you stand on the belief thing? Or what? The experiment needs you...

Nik, if you can't take that test, check out the first link, which has a pretty good list of indicators that should enable you to place yourself as an F or a T without going through a test. Alternatively, if you hunt around you should find other Myers-Briggs based tests online. Btw belief can exist without organised religion, and there are plenty of people who are religious just for the security of the rules, and who would not rank strongly on actual belief.

Lioness, if it helps, when I say "prone to belief" I do not mean prone to belief in any specific thing, or prone to belief in anything traditional. I think if you are reluctant to put yourself in the good old black and white "there is no god" camp right here, right now, you are probably agnostic rather than atheist. (It would not surprise me if a high proportion of agnostics are P's btw as P's are prone to not making up their minds if they don't think the evidence is in.) By "prone to belief" I mean that there is a part of you open to ideas that cannot be proven (either logically or through experimentation) and that therefore require belief rather than hard evidence. These ideas might be emotions, ideals, vague feelings, doubts, abstract concepts, whimsies, all the way up to full on delusions. All that stuff Delvo can't stand. A true atheist would toss these out the window without a second thought. If you are hanging on to them in some form, then you value belief in some way, be it ever so small, and you are leaning over the fence in the same direction as me.   I would call myself an agnostic rather than a believer, but if I'm honest with myself I probably believe in something - I just don't know what it is (not a beard in the sky or any kind of normal idea of God, or anything atheists typically object to along the lines of "if there is a God why did he let that storm kill those people etc"). Clear as mud?

So far the hypothesis seems to be standing up pretty well. As one would expect there's a goodly number of T's around here and a goodly number of atheists...


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## the smiling weirwood (Jul 1, 2008)

INFP- The Questor

I have faith in myself. I believe in humanity. Not as in the current state of affairs of the species...but in the ideals of our race. The potential and beauty.


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## Talysia (Jul 1, 2008)

*INFJ* - "Author". Strong drive and enjoyment to help others. Complex personality. 1.5% of total population. ​ 
That does sound like me, actually. 

I'm going to sound very out of place here, but I am prone to belief, as The Procrastinator puts it.​


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## BookStop (Jul 1, 2008)

Procrastinator, the 'me too' part of my post was to point out my ISTJ and athiest status, just like mosaix.

I am not surprised there are so many Ts here. In fact, what shocks the heck out of me is how we Chronnies can get into religious arguements, when religion itself seems like such an obvioius fairy-tale. By Thor's Hammer, what are people thinking? I just don't get the point of gods, never have. (btw - I was extrememly high on J)


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## HardScienceFan (Jul 1, 2008)

with Taly and Procrastinator on this one.
Amazing,isn't it?
*A year ago I used to be sure.*
Didn't take the test.My firewall would have blocked the site also ,i think.
Have been described as complex.
Like to help others,like Taly.
Prone to believe
that's the phrase ,Taly
and:

*nicely put,Weirwood*


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## ktabic (Jul 1, 2008)

*INTJ* - "Mastermind". Introverted intellectual with a preference for finding certainty. A builder of systems and the applier of theoretical models. 2.1% of total population, also a radical atheist.


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## The Procrastinator (Jul 1, 2008)

BookStop said:


> Procrastinator, the 'me too' part of my post was to point out my ISTJ and athiest status, just like mosaix.
> 
> I am not surprised there are so many Ts here. In fact, what shocks the heck out of me is how we Chronnies can get into religious arguements, when religion itself seems like such an obvioius fairy-tale. By Thor's Hammer, what are people thinking? I just don't get the point of gods, never have. (btw - I was extrememly high on J)


 
Oopsy Booksy, my bad.  All I can say is, maybe I shouldn't be posting when I'm coming down with the flu!

After this one my next investigations will be:
1) Why are T's so sensitive (those religious arguments are something to behold)
2) Just how many INFP's are there on the Chrons and why...?


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## BookStop (Jul 1, 2008)

No worries, Procrastinator. You should see some of my posts after enjoying a glass of wine. It's way worse than your flu scenario.

Your investigation could get messy. People like to defend thier ideals. T's like proof and absolutely abhor arguments that basically end in 'just because I do' statements. I'm guessing F's are just as sensitive though, or there would be nothing to argue about.


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## JDP (Jul 1, 2008)

INTJ like ktabic. I think 'Mastermind' is how I would generally describe myself, so I'm willing to accept the accuracy of this test   I used to describe myself as an atheist, but as I grow more open minded, I now tend to use the term agnostic - as I see it, there is no proof in the existence of god(s), but I'm willing to accept the existence of things outside my current sphere of comprehension. Never say never, eh?


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## Vladd67 (Jul 1, 2008)

*INFP* - "Questor". High capacity for caring. Emotional face to the world. High sense of honor derived from internal values. 4.4% of total population.

Athiest


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## HardScienceFan (Jul 1, 2008)

no surprise there Vladd

anybody surprised at my "prone to belief"?

i was brought up a catholic


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## Interference (Jul 1, 2008)

Took the test again because I couldn't remember the details of the first time and the result is marginally different (from what I recall).  What I want to know is this:  Have I changed since yesterday or have my selections been influenced by what others have said since?  Did I misread some of the questions, either today or yesterday?  If I do the test tomorrow, what kind of person will I be then?

Seems I'm either a questor or an architect.  Can one be both?  Maybe ... 

It's tough trying to be proud of what you are when it (apparently) changes daily


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## Pyar (Jul 1, 2008)

I am an INFP and I would say am loosely a Hindu, kind of a Deist. 

I am very certainly not an atheist or agnostic though.


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## Happy Joe (Jul 1, 2008)

ISTJ

Religion wise I admit the possibility that one (or more) religions may be at least partly true (it is not possible to disprove them) but it is a very low probability, in my opinion.

Enjoy!


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## Ursa major (Jul 1, 2008)

I'm an ENTJ (Don't ask me where that E came from, as I'll tell you the source was a link from another thread.)

I have to say that I bearly believe in anything. (Be honest: you all knew I'd say that.) You should also know by now that I often use levity to avoid answering a question; I am doing so again here regarding my views on faith. Is this need to avoid serious issues a characteristic of we ENTJs? (I rather believe it may be.)



I will admit to holding one belief with regards to faith: that it should be a private matter, not public. In particular, pressure from the pulpit** put on _elected _figures should be resisted (and even denounced). The public has a right to have proposals thought through properly and debated on their merits; their representatives should not be treated merely as ciphers for the hierarchy of whichever faith they happen to hold.)


** - or the equivalent for other faiths


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## Drachir (Jul 2, 2008)

ISTJ - Trustee, guardian of time honoured institutions.  That seems strange as I am a bit of an iconoclast.  All I know is I have very little use for superstition of any type, including beliefs in space aliens and gods, which are on the same level as far as I am conerned.


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## Foxbat (Jul 2, 2008)

ISTJ 

Not sure how accurate it really is. (I don't_ feel_ like an ISTJ)

Still, I am an atheist so there might be some truth in the findings. Perhaps the fact that I am ISTJ makes me doubt the findings of the test........


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## The Procrastinator (Jul 2, 2008)

Interference said:


> Took the test again because I couldn't remember the details of the first time and the result is marginally different (from what I recall). What I want to know is this: Have I changed since yesterday or have my selections been influenced by what others have said since? Did I misread some of the questions, either today or yesterday? If I do the test tomorrow, what kind of person will I be then?
> 
> Seems I'm either a questor or an architect. Can one be both? Maybe ...
> 
> It's tough trying to be proud of what you are when it (apparently) changes daily


 
Weeel now Interference, I wouldn't worry too much about it, its really best to do this sort of test several times. Perhaps you're one of those wafty people. (Kidding) This kind of classification isn't black and white, and where they can really fall down is for people who are close to the middle of a spectrum, rather than clearly off to one side or the other. Take the I...E split, introvert/extrovert. Some are strongly one way or the other but quite a few people are middling, and depending on the day or their situation, small variations could tip them to one side or the other of the spectrum, just in the natural scheme of things. The same goes for any of the "divisions", including F and T. Me, I'm an F but not powerfully so - my F is healthily flavoured with T and its not too much a stretch for me to act like an INTP if the occasion calls for it. Whereas acting like an ESTJ exhausts me no end. When it comes to it though, if I make a decision I have to go with the one that "feels" right, no matter how much sense this or that makes. If the rational decision is one that makes me feel bad for whatever reason (no matter how irrational) then I can't go with that decision (unless the other way makes me feel worse). At bottom, this makes me an F.

One thing this experiment has shown so far is that this message board is crawling with introverts... (I seem to remember reading somewhere that introverts are roughly 25% of the general populace.) Unless I have counted wrong, only Ursa has put his hand up as an extrovert, and he's not too sure about that one anyway. I wonder if SFF fans are more introverted than the general populace, or if its because we're "convening" on the www, which probably attracts more introverts anyway (can discuss things without all that draining real world interaction, in our own time etc). What did introverts do before the www....


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## HardScienceFan (Jul 2, 2008)

serious here,can i call you Pooh?
coz of the avatar?
it would facilitate things,your name is kinda long


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## The Procrastinator (Jul 2, 2008)

If it pleases you.  Or The P. Whatever is convenient for ID purposes, as long as you don't make me angry. You won't like me when I'm angry...


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## HardScienceFan (Jul 2, 2008)

it does not please me,it's convenient.

i think psychology is still in the dark ages.

human beings defy analysis.

personality end members are devised, to get a handle on basically a chaotic* phenomenon,character.
*in the computational/mathematical sense

these tests are to be taken with mountain of salt.
Although i applaud the thread in itself,BTW

slight rant over

i think reading the literature the chroniclers read tends to make them ,for want of a better term, introverted.
lovers of the fantastic are perceived in a certain light,most of the time the wrong light

those lovers are well aware of that.

it makes them uncertain,and they clam up.
as for myself:the larger the crowd ,the more introverted i become

some people here have changed from religious to non-religious,and vice versa.
i think circumstances draw someone to religion,or drive them away from it.


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## The Procrastinator (Jul 2, 2008)

All this stuff, including how I interpret what you say to me and vice versa, should be ingested with salt...

I wouldn't say psych is in the dark ages, people have learned a lot about it and still have a lot to learn. Maybe some of it is unknowable. Should this stop us? We are a complex form of animal life but it would seem there is a sizeable genetic component to our characters - implying that character has a genetic purpose and an evolutionary significance. In broad terms we have much in common with eachother, and some of us have an incredible amount in common. There are patterns present in character "types". Interesting to explore...



> i think reading the literature the chroniclers read tends to make them ,for want of a better term, introverted.
> lovers of the fantastic are perceived in a certain light,most of the time the wrong light


 
Riddikulus. This would mean that prior to reading SFF they were not introverted. More likely, introverts are more attracted to reading in general - and extroverts have better things to do than chat on websites. 

Circumstances can draw someone toward religion or drive them away from it, but religion is only a part of belief. Is the search for meaning down to certain character traits? Questions, questions.


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## Hilarious Joke (Jul 2, 2008)

I would also like to thank the P for putting up this thread, very interesting indeedly!

I myself appear to be an:

*ENFJ* - "Persuader". Outstanding leader of groups. Can be aggressive at helping others to be the best that they can be. 2.5% of total population.​ 
It seems I am the first one of these (just checked back, Ursa's an EN*T*J). I think it somewhat fits, as to the extroverted part, I wouldn't consider I'm that extroverted, but I am pretty crazy and confident around my friends. I guess I'm an okay conversationalist, but otherwise I'm pretty shy, I don't have very good self-esteem (this is the longest amount of time I've talked about myself in ages).​ 
I'm prone to belief, I've been brought up as a catholic, but like to think myself more as a Christian, in terms of religious beliefs. I don't want people to think of me as a Christian though, but as a person, HJ!​


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## Interference (Jul 2, 2008)

Writing is a solitary art - many arts are and are attractive to people who eschew the society of erratic reality - and reading really can't be done in a party-type situation (well I've never been to a party with a reading room, have you?).  I don't necessarily suspect that the web attracts the introverse (just coined another word, Oxford Dics) since there are just as likely to be other sites and boards with the inverse proportion of I to E.  I feel )) it is more likely to do with the board's format; that many of the members here have a natural tendency towards introspection, study and deep thought.

Now, if anyone wants to come and visit my DiscoAndAfroHairstyles board, you might see a whole nother demographic altogether, all together .


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## HardScienceFan (Jul 2, 2008)

you're a firm believer in native,or genetically driven introvertedness,i see,Pooh.

*'extroverts have better things to do than chat on websites.* '
a bit facile and glib,Pooh.

you're assuming too much there.
totally unwarranted.

psychopharmacy has advanced somewhat,as has the understanding of the neurological underpinnings of some forms of behaviour

so,what practical advances has psychology brought us?


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## Interference (Jul 2, 2008)

Created work for psychopharmacists


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## HardScienceFan (Jul 2, 2008)

i said practical advances


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## Tansy (Jul 2, 2008)

*[SIZE=+3]ESFP [/SIZE]*"Entertainer". Radiates attractive warmth and optimism. Smooth, witty, charming, clever. Fun to be with. Very generous. 8.5% of the total population.  

I'm agnostic bordering on atheist


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## Interference (Jul 2, 2008)

Hmmm.  You wanna take that test again, Tan?


(Seems to me you're more like one in a million )


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## JDP (Jul 2, 2008)

Yeah, these definitions are certainly interesting. When I first started reading about mine, I thought "wow, that's really pretty accurate - cool!". Then, however, I did my patented 'horoscope test' (reading the alternatives to see if they're just as 'accurate') and was a little disappointed when I could identify with a number of them.

All good food for thought, though, thanks for the thread! Has anyone noticed a pattern for type-to-religion then?

*Edit:*

Scratch that, the more I read about it, the more my type seems quite accurate. Great stuff...


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## The Procrastinator (Jul 2, 2008)

> a bit facile and glib,Pooh.


 
Caught me there, Ben! Sometimes I am facile and glib. Oh no!

Seriously, I've been following the whole nature/nurture thing with interest for years, and I continue to be amazed at what continues to be revealed of the "power of nature". 

As for practical advances, I'm sure if you compare modern treatments of mental disorders or diseases to those of forty years ago, you'll spot some improvements.

Interference, you are right I dare say - boards about books will probably be home to a disproportionate number of introverts.

HJ and Tansy, nice to see some more F's that aren't INFPs - I was beginning to wonder about all those INFP's.


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## Tansy (Jul 2, 2008)

Interference said:


> Hmmm.  You wanna take that test again, Tan?
> 
> 
> (Seems to me you're more like one in a million )



lol bless you my child 

I get a different answer everytime I do one of these lol, however it is true of me in a good mood 

EDIT: I'm going to take this again as reading up on it only a few things are true to me

I hate being the centre of attention for one and I think a lot more about things than stated

Back in a bit with a new answer


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## Tansy (Jul 2, 2008)

Ok I tried this again and got *[SIZE=+3]ENFP [/SIZE]*"Journalist". Uncanny sense of the motivations of others. Life is an exciting drama. 8.1% of total population.

After looking it up in more detail then I think this is what i got before as it sounds familiar and is more like me than the previous assessment - although _ do have some of those traits -

ENFPs are warm, enthusiastic people, typically very bright and full of potential.  They live in the world of possibilities, and can become very passionate and excited about things.  Their enthusiasm lends them the ability to inspire and motivate others, more so than we see in other types.  They can talk their way in or out of anything.  They love life, seeing it as a special gift, and strive to make the most out of it.

I'd go along with the above. THe next bit is semi right 

They see meaning in everything, and are on a continuous quest to adapt their lives and values to achieve inner peace.  They're constantly aware and somewhat fearful of losing touch with themselves. Since emotional excitement is usually an important part of the ENFP's life, and because they are focused on keeping "centered", the ENFP is usually an intense individual, with highly evolved values.

I'm not so much fearful of losing touch with myself but I am now aware of who I am and what my pros and cons are 

An ENFP needs to focus on following through with their projects.  This can be a problem area for some of these individuals.  Unlike other Extraverted types, ENFPs need time alone to center themselves, and make sure they are moving in a direction which is in sync with their values.  ENFPs who remain centered will usually be quite successful at their endeavors.  Others may fall into the habit of dropping a project when they become excited about a new possibility, and thus they never achieve the great accomplishments which they are capable of achieving.

I do get bored and distracted easily unless I am really into something

They have an exceptional ability to intuitively understand a person after a very short period of time, and use their intuition and flexibility to relate to others on their own level.

That bit is true  I used to use it to hurt when younger, a defensive mechanism, I'd know quickly what a person's vunerability was. Now I tend to use it in a good way

ENFPs sometimes make serious errors in judgment.  They have an amazing ability to intuitively perceive the truth about a person or situation, but when they apply judgment to their perception, they may jump to the wrong conclusions.

That is also true -  hence I'm open minded and rarely judge anyone

However, ENFPs like a little excitement in their lives, and are best matched with individuals who are comfortable with change and new experiences.

This is getting scary now

Because they are so alert and sensitive, constantly  scanning their environments, ENFPs often suffer from muscle tension. They have a strong need to be independent, and resist being controlled or labelled.  They need to maintain control over themselves, but they do not believe in controlling others.  Their dislike of dependence and suppression extends to others as well as to themselves.

yup I'm scared 

 Because ENFPs live in the world of exciting possibilities, the details of everyday life are seen as trivial drudgery.  They place no importance on detailed, maintenance-type tasks, and will frequently remain oblivous to these types of concerns.  When they do have to perform these tasks, they do not enjoy themselves. This is a challenging area of life for most ENFPs, and can be frustrating for ENFP's family members.

I don't feel too bad leaving dishes in the sink now


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## Michael01 (Jul 14, 2008)

INFP.

The thing is, I have a different definition for "god" or "deity" than some people. I look at it this way: "The sun actually does provide light and sustenance for the entire planet, therefore the sun is more powerful than me." Yeah, even gods can die, especially by that example. Doesn't mean that I'll get down on my knees and worship it, either.

On the other hand, I do believe there is more to it than that, and I don't think my thoughts on it are entirely "made up." I don't think the explanation provided by quantum theory for the origin of the universe is satisfactory. I remember my philosophy instructor in college going on about how there "was nothing before the Big Bang." But, somehow, the priniciples of quantum physics were still in effect in a complete non-existence? And this is called "logical?"

At the same time, I find this theory fascinating. I mean, I couldn't stop myself from devouring a few books on the subject, anyway.

So we could say it is a fact that the universe exists, and that the evidence we've gathered so far _suggests_ it did not always exist (and that is according to our _interpretation_ of the evidence). It also _suggests_ that nothing at all existed before it came to be. This evidence and the interpretation thereof, however, is not at all conclusive, and it seems illogical to accept it as a fact.

My philosophy instructor was so sure that anyone who believed in "God" or "afterlife" was delusional. Maybe we are. What the hey, it sure is a nice delusion to hold on to, anyway.


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## Interference (Jul 14, 2008)

Michael01 said:


> My philosophy instructor was so sure that anyone who believed in "God" or "afterlife" was delusional.....



Atheists can be nearly as bad as Christians in that respect.  Absolute conviction tends to lead to absolute incredulity that others don't agree.


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## Hilarious Joke (Jul 15, 2008)

A really good article about respect for differences between your beliefs and another's:

10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On | Cracked.com


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## Michael01 (Jul 15, 2008)

One very interesting, humorous, and informative article, HJ.  Thanks for sharing it!


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## Ehkzu (Jul 30, 2008)

Jung Test Results


Extroverted (*E*) 63.64% Introverted (I) 36.36%
						Sensing (*S*) 50% Intuitive (N) 50%
						Thinking (*T*) 73.33% Feeling (F) 26.67%
						Perceiving (*P*) 59.46% Judging (J) 40.54%​ 
	 				Your type is:  *[SIZE=+3]ENTP[/SIZE]*
 				 					 		 					Accuracy: 					 						- 						5 high 						4 						3 						2 						1 low 					 					 					 					 					 	 				 			 				
*ENTP* - "Inventor". Enthusiastic interest in everything and always sensitive to possibilities. Non-conformist and innovative. 3.2% of the total population.


Was raised Episcopalian. Became agnostic at 15, atheist by 18. Married devout Mormon at 39--attend church with her regularly to this day, decades hence.

Realized recently that I'm not an atheist, because an atheist is someone who responds "No" when you ask him whether he believes in God, whereas I say "Sorry, there's a word in that sentence that I don't understand, so I can't answer it." 

Asking "Do you believe in God?" makes exactly as much sense to me as asking "Do you believe in Skr<>##@ish?" 

People's religious beliefs spring from our being social animals with a rudimentary ability to think, including a tendency to connect the dots even when the dots aren't connected. Religion is an extension of social reification rituals--comparable to wolves getting together and howling before a hunt.

On an individual level, religious belief = our innate need to care for fellow tribe members + desire to keep going indefinitely (an example of how hope clouds observation).

I've gone to gospel music concerts and felt genuinely moved, because I'm still a social animal. I just know where those powerful feelings come from.


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## Celeritas (Jul 30, 2008)

http://similarminds.com/jung/intp.html

that's me for the most part.

I believe in a connectedness between everything in the universe. I believe it is formless and shapeless. and (personal belief here, no disrespect meant)
that it would be disrespectful to try and define this connectedness any further than that.

and in the interest of scientific purity I took the test 15 times and received the same results each time.


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## The Procrastinator (Jul 31, 2008)

Fifteen times! _She's a maniac...maniac_ (There's a song for every occasion. )

I will now get around to collating my results, such as they are, but I have a feeling my hypothesis will stand...


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## Celeritas (Jul 31, 2008)

The Procrastinator said:


> Fifteen times! _She's a maniac...maniac_ (There's a song for every occasion. )
> 
> I will now get around to collating my results, such as they are, but I have a feeling my hypothesis will stand...




didn't know that was my theme song didja? *teehee*


seriously though, scientific experimentation requires results that repeatedly can be tested.


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