# Atlantis - Real?



## cleasterwood

I've been researching a new novel I intend on writing and have found the most excellent source for the case of Atlantis as a real part of Earth's history. In THE DESTRUCTION OF ATLANTIS, the author Frank Joseph has accumulated an astounding wealth of evidence that Atlantis at one time did indeed exist. Although he uses the 900 instead of 9000 years ago theory, which he explains along the way why, this book is an eye-opener! 

All the information is perfectly cross referenced, comes from the four corners of the earth, and makes for a very, very convincing case. By far, it's the best book I've read on the city of Atlantis. Anyone wanting to learn about this ancient culture that disappeared beneath the waves should without a doubt get this book as well as it's companion book, SURVIVORS OF ATLANTIS -Their impact on world culture. Both books are absolutely convincing.


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## Winters_Sorrow

Voted "No" as I don't believe the 'myth' of Atlantis. 
I.e. An island of immense power & technology sinks beneath the waves and who's fleeing citizens found the Egyptian, Mayan & Chinese empires.

Something is very odd that common designs & beliefs sprung up in seperate landmass cultures, but I don't believe that 1 Earth culture started it all.
Every society 'pinches' ideas & concepts from it's neighbours - especially if they're more powerful or advanced. 
I just think we greatly underestimate ancient trading routes and sea-faring techniques. Eric the Red had compasses and the more we find out about ancient cultures the more advanced they appear.

If anything, I'm starting to swing to the 'Jon Shannow' theorem that _possibly_, the earth underwent a cataclysmic event - possibly brought on by man's actions, which regressed us back to the stone age.


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## Stalker

Voted "maybe" because as far as I know anything we know will hardly arise from nothingness. Plato borrowed his knowledge from the Egyptian priests and those relied on some obscure ancient knowledge whose implications still amaze scientists. Still, Egyptian pyramids (esp. the Great ones) look very similar to Mayan or Aztec teocallies, or Sumerian ziccurates to think they arose completely independently from one another...
There are multiple legends of different ancient nations of the Great Deluge and of misterious lands in ALL oceans: Atlantis, Lemuria in Indian Ocean, Mu - in Pacifi Ocean...
Well, all the rest is up to you!


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## kaneda

voted *unsure*. I love the idea of Atlantis existing at some point, and I've watched a few programmes that gave a good case for its existence. But it seems that for every argument there is that it did exist theres another one that disprooves that argument. Plus it does sound like the perfect myth. 

But as i said i love the idea of it, and I would love to know that it did exist, but until there is a solid argument or some solid proof I'm going to have to remain unsure about it.


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## Brian G Turner

So far as I understand it, Plato stated what was in effect a second-hand morality story from the ancient world - yet somehow his very limited account has been turned into a science fiction story of epic proportions, without actually validating itself in anyway.

If you're looking for the story as a metaphor, then places such as what is the Scilly Isles or Minoa - or even Santorini itself - all fulfill the story in different levels.

The version of Atlantic we get nowadays seems completely divorced from the ancient realities mentioned, though. For example, claims that an ancient Greek talking about a society being "advanced" as somehow implying greater technological development than societies in existence 2,500 years later (ie, the modern world) is simply bollox. If there was ever a nuclear-powered Atlantis then Plato wouldn't never have spoken about a civilisation across the seas, but instead of mighty gods on earth.

The whole concept is to ancient history what Nessie is to zoology - it's a marketed gimmick that is fed entirely by imagination and helps sell things. Perhaps more seriously, it's a piece of ancient folklore mis-read as literal, and turned into the product of contemporary imagination, nothing more.

As for being able to justify itself - well, Eric Von Daniken's works can seem extremely well argued - until you start using third party information.

But that's just my opinion, and I'm a cynic, I guess.


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## Alexa

cleasterwood said:
			
		

> I've been researching a new novel I intend on writing and have found the most excellent source for the case of Atlantis as a real part of Earth's history.


 
There are too many novels about Atlantis more or less well written. If you really want to have an historical background in your novel, why don't you take a look at all those dead languages and revive that part of history ? You should have more credibility and succes. Atlantis became commercial and a new novel may be lost like the others.


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## Stormflame

Sure, some form of a city of Atlantis existed in the lost centuries of time.  Who knows how many cities and civilisations have existed, and are lost in unwritten history.  Probably too many to tell.

As with any rumor or seemingly fairytale story, events and rumors have been added over periods of time.  We have all heard the quote, "Making mountains out of mole-hills."  The same goes with Atlantis.  It has been made larger than life, because it has been a target of great fantasy and dreaming.
This is not the only place made 'larger than life' through years of uncounted transformation through stories written down and spread by word of mouth.  So many more exist, just to make adventure-seekers want to find it all the more...yea


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## cleasterwood

All interesting takes on the subject, no less.    The Atlantis I'm referring to does have a basis in world history.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Atlantis was as technologically advanced as we are today, merely the center point where the Bronze Age began.  According to Joseph, Orichalcum is actually Bronze, which the Atlantean empire cornered the market on so to speak.  Copper was mined in large amounts from the Great Lakes region by some unknown culture that 'came from the Sunrise Sea" according to some Native American legends.  Geological evidence proves that tons of copper, a material used in bronze production, is missing from the Great Lakes region.  

The cataclysmic events leading to the real Atlantis' destruction are verified by geology, climatology, and also mythology, including the Bible.  If you strip away all the superficial teachings that goes along with Plato's account and the countless other legends from various parts of the world, and thus compare them, which Frank Joseph has, you get a clear and concise picture of what has been blown up in our day to become the myth of Atlantis.  

Starting in 3000 BCE and ending around 1200 BCE, a series of comets and meteoric showers bombarded the earth and caused massive destruction, still visible today in the ruins of some cities.  These near misses as well as 3 impacts, the last in 1200 BCE, lend credence to the story as they are actually accounted for in many deluge myths and backed by geological evidence.  

Also relevant is that one can't easily dismiss the multitude of legends referring to the Deluge, which seem to show different versions of the same story.  There's over 500 flood legends and out of the 250 studied by Joseph's source (can't remember right now who it was) all of them have something to do with a sunken continent from whence many cultures "first kings" and 'civilizers' escaped.  

What's the most surprising is that almost all the legends have exact or similar verbage to one another although they are from different corners of the world. The common thread is there if you can just get past all the religious allegories and metaphors.  Just one more point to add some more historical context to the story, people thought Troy was a myth....until it was found.  It just goes to show, to me anyway, that all myth has some basis in reality.

Alexa,


> There are too many novels about Atlantis more or less well written. If you really want to have an historical background in your novel, why don't you take a look at all those dead languages and revive that part of history ? You should have more credibility and succes. Atlantis became commercial and a new novel may be lost like the others.


 
Yes, I know this, but most stories out there today aren't written based on Plato's accounts.  They all describe Atlantis as either technologically advanced with flying machines, or underwater, and not ever have they described it using Plato's Critias and Timeaus descriptions or descriptions gathered from other parts of the world and incorporated them together to even try and give an account that could have a basis in history.   I don't intend on doing that.  I want to portray it as a historical place, the place where the Bronze Age began.  That's why I've taken into account the countless legends.  I've read all these legends seperately and formulated my own thoughts before I ever read Joseph's book and now that I have it has only reinforced my first thoughts, that Atlantis did in fact exist.  I've studied ancient Egypt's language , which is the main POV used in my novel.  In the first novel (already written and based on Egyptain myth) I used actual Middle-Egyptian to give realism to the story.  I intend on doing the same with the sequel.  I feel that it was an actual place and want the realism to be there.  I feel in that manner it will stand apart from the rest and give a fresh, yet old, perspective on an actual historical place called Atlantis.

These naturally are my own opinions but I think that once you look past the slush of allegory and metaphor one can find truth and meaning behind the story of Atlantis.


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## Alexa

In this case, I wish you good luck, cleasterwood.


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## Brian G Turner

Kudos to you for keeping to your opinions, cleasterwood. However, as with the Daniken comment, it's worth considering alternatives on any single idea.

The comets idea is one I've heard of but not looked more closely at - but if I recall, key objections are trying to apply a single global cause to a variety of unrelated local events.

Nowhere is this more plain that with flood accounts - to some Christians especially, the predilection for human societies to include flood accounts in their mythology is a clear indicator of a single Biblical deluge.

However, it's also worth pointing out that humanity settled primarily around bodies of water, and that bodies of water are prone to rare extreme flooding. It should therefore be absolutely no surprise that accounts of extreme flooding therefore enter the local folklore. 

But, I guess that's simply one point. I have no doubt that the book is thought-provoking, which I should imagine is the most important issue.


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## Rane Longfox

It's such a persistant legend, I feel there must be some basis of truth behind it. Though undoubtably it has been exaggerated significantly.

Sounds like a very interesting book cleasterwood. May have to look into buying a copy


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## cleasterwood

I'm still agent hunting for the first novel and it's not easy to say the least, but I have high hopes and since the last rejection I got, and after reading Stephen King's ON WRITING- A MEMOIR OF THE CRAFT, I have been editing parts of the first that I feel don't work right or could be made much better.  Opinions vary, but the general concensus from my critique group has been that the first story redraft has shown great improvement.    When the story reaches publication rest assured, I'll be posting my happiness.  

I, Brian,
That's why I'm posting more excerpts.  And yes, it is very thought-provoking indeed.  

Alexa, 
Thank you.


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## orionsixwings

Atlantis may have been real.  There's far too much evidence that there was an ancient city with that name.  But the mythological aspect may have been exagerrated.  Another thing  to take into account when talking about Atlantis,  is the other great city that supposedly existed at around the same time - LEMORIA ( I could have spelled this wrong...) 

According to legend, Atlantis and Lemoria (??) were the two biggest cities before the flood.  They were the world power before and have advanced in technology and in the arts and society as well.  They were also supposedly at war against each other.  When the great flood covered the earth, it was told that both cities were destroyed.

Another good basis for a story, don't you think?

On the Mythological point of view, Atlanteans were supposed to be humans who could breathe under water, while Lemorians were humans with wings.


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## Winters_Sorrow

Lemuria.

And a lot of this is drawn from myth's made up after the middle ages.
I'm not sure about the truth of it.


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## cleasterwood

So true, Wintersorrow.  Much of this mis-information was created in the middle ages.  Atlanteans didn't breath underwater and the Lemurians (which actually preceded the Atlanteans) didn't fly.  The Middle Ages threw culutral mythology back by centuries.


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## orionsixwings

Well, there are some folklore that has them like that.  I just forgot where I actually read that.  But there are stories that say Lemuria (Thanks for the spelling) had winged humans.  

Well, if this is not a popular concept then my goodness...there's a good story for us to write..


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## kyektulu

*I voted Most Definetly it existed. 
 There is just to many references of Atlantis from all the 'corners' of the earth. 
 Surely this cannot be coincidence?
I think that there is just to much evidence in favour of Atlantis being a real aincent civilisation, however I do not believe that they were as advanced as some like to believe. 
In this respect I think the history of Atlantis is like a 'chinese whisper' it grows from one account to the next, and somewhere along the line rumours of the Atlantians being water breathing dietys emerged...
Imo they were just people not very technologically advanced compared to modern standards but for the time there culture was developed.*


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## orionsixwings

Winters_Sorrow said:
			
		

> Lemuria.
> 
> And a lot of this is drawn from myth's made up after the middle ages.
> I'm not sure about the truth of it.



Not all that's thought to be myth is myth -- some are actually drawn from actual events but as it passes through time - and overly eager businessmen - the story changes.  In my opinion that's how myths and legends begin anyway.  They start out as real then people pass it around adding more salt than needed until it's an entirely different (and usually unbelievable) story.

I believe that there were two cities before the great flood (yes, I believe in the Biblical account of the flood since there is really huge evidence that it happened.)  There is proof that human civilization and technology were already advanced before the flood and there might have been two great cities with those names that existed.  Atlantis may be one, and its rival, Lemuria may be the other.

There is just too many cultures now that share this story for it to be just myth.


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## polymath

There is very little doubt that the flood myths derive from the melting of the vast glaciers at the end of the last Ice Age. Many civilisations were destroyed by these floods, particularly those by the (then) seaside when sea levels rose sharply around 10,00BC.
That's not myth, it's solid fact.
If we take Plato at face value, Atlantis sank into the sea around 10,000 B.C.
It's not unreasonable to assume that at least one halfway-competent seafaring civilisation was devastated at this time. In fact, I'd call it certain.
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_level_rise


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## The Ace

Naaaaaah !


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## Talysia

I voted unsure, because there are so many possibilities of what it could be.  I'd like to think that there's more to it than just a myth, though.


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## Delvo

I wonder what "version" of Atlantis we're talking about. Until the 19th century, it was just another ancient lost city. Then the New-Agers invented a bunch of brand-new stuff about the supernatural... and invincibility (desite the original having been beaten by just another regular city's forces)... and vastly advanced technology... and aliens... and angels... and crystals... and worldwide empire instead of just local influence/conflicts... and ancestry to all other civilizations...


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## cornelius

if you look at the greek islands a lot of them are barely rising above sea level. so if there was a great city there that got flooded then it's quite possible the beginning of the myth. to say that Atlantis is positioned between Africa and America is a bit weird, as the shapes clearly show the pangea origin of the continents. If however a new "continent " ( i don't think if atlantis existed it wouldn't be a continent at all , the power to flood a continent would have to be enormous, think of the Tsunami but far far more intense. ) . well if you look at building structures in Egypt and the Aztec culture you could find similarities, although you can discuss this on many levels. it COULD be a coincidence. i need to do some thinking before I post more.


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## The Ace

Island in the Med, giving rise to legends ? Highly probable.

   Vast midatlantic continent alluded to by weirdos and con artists flogging books and assorted junk to fleece the stupid ? Total bollocks !


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## Spartan27

I said:


> So far as I understand it, Plato stated what was in effect a second-hand morality story from the ancient world - yet somehow his very limited account has been turned into a science fiction story of epic proportions, without actually validating itself in anyway.
> 
> If you're looking for the story as a metaphor, then places such as what is the Scilly Isles or Minoa - or even Santorini itself - all fulfill the story in different levels.
> 
> The version of Atlantic we get nowadays seems completely divorced from the ancient realities mentioned, though. For example, claims that an ancient Greek talking about a society being "advanced" as somehow implying greater technological development than societies in existence 2,500 years later (ie, the modern world) is simply bollox. If there was ever a nuclear-powered Atlantis then Plato wouldn't never have spoken about a civilisation across the seas, but instead of mighty gods on earth.
> 
> The whole concept is to ancient history what Nessie is to zoology - it's a marketed gimmick that is fed entirely by imagination and helps sell things. Perhaps more seriously, it's a piece of ancient folklore mis-read as literal, and turned into the product of contemporary imagination, nothing more.
> 
> As for being able to justify itself - well, Eric Von Daniken's works can seem extremely well argued - until you start using third party information.
> 
> But that's just my opinion, and I'm a cynic, I guess.


 
Brian let me preface my comments here as I am not "trashing you"...howeber...

See, this is what I mean...is it that very very easy to Thrash "historical period works" of Plato? What is this based on? To scientifically "thrash" Plato, you should have some scientific fact. The truth is, that today (more and more scientists and historians and geologists are coming to the belief that) and in our life-time we will finally see that Atlantis existed right where Santorini blew it's top a long long time ago and where Plato said it would be. 

Let's take a step back for just a moment, prior to the late 1800's, the "story" of Troy was considered a "greek myth". Then there was (if I remember my history correctly) a certain discovery where exactly the "ancient greek mythilogocal texts" said Troy was....oops.


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## The Ace

Gotcha ! Santorini was the one I was looking for.   If that's the root of the Atlantean legend then there's a strong possibility of fact. Cheers Spartan 27.


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## SpaceShip

I voted maybe - it's the romantic in me wanting some of these exotic tales to be true in these dull (but scary) days; believing something like this lightens things up.  There are lots of tales and myths that could be _true!_ and some are so similar and from places so far from each other that there must be some truth in them somewhere.


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## McMurphy

I think there is a chance it existed in the same sense that the Biblical World Flooding has some grounds in history due to some immense regional flooding around the same time as the appropiate scripture.  There could have been, once, a land mass which had been populated that had descending into the ocean.  Perhaps both unrelated examples could be seen akin to a treat of truth covered with a healthy amount of the chocolate that, in these cases, would be mythology.


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## SpaceShip

McMurphy said:


> I think there is a chance it existed in the same sense that the Biblical World Flooding has some grounds in history due to some immense regional flooding around the same time as the appropiate scripture. There could have been, once, a land mass which had been populated that had descending into the ocean. Perhaps both unrelated examples could be seen akin to a treat of truth covered with a healthy amount of the chocolate that, in these cases, would be mythology.


Yeah but, McMurphy - I think I read somewhere that archaeologists have said they have evidence that the Biblical Flood did happen.  Whereas, do we have any evidence relating to Atlantis?


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## Urien

Atlantis lies under the railway yards in Doncaster.


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## Hiro Protagonist

I certainly want to believe Atlantis is real.  Hopefully I will get around to reading that book at some point.


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## McMurphy

*My Charlie Brown Answer*



SpaceShip said:


> Yeah but, McMurphy - I think I read somewhere that archaeologists have said they have evidence that the Biblical Flood did happen.  Whereas, do we have any evidence relating to Atlantis?



Good point, because, as far as I know, evidence directly related between a mythological Atlantis and historical records of a large land mass sinking into a sea or ocean in which would inspire the myths like that of the Biblical flooding is not nearly as apparent. I just believe that is quite possible---far more so than an actual Atlantis---that some form of a lesser scaled human event took place within the ancient world that could have spurred lore.

Then again, and speaking of lore, the tale of Atlantis (from how I remember it) is rich with the common trademarks of folklore meant to relate a message or a lesson.  In this case, it would be under the topic of civilization and how, even for a powerful and proud society, its underbelly---namely that of greed and power lust---is its greatest predator.  The sinking would be symbolic of such a downtrodden turn of events.  Very little actual environmental inspiration would be needed, while the likelihood of political/sociological reference points being present would be bountiful.

Maybe the real question is what would Plato be observing in his world that would influence his desire to relate such a lesson?


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## Esioul

cleasterwood said:


> I've been researching a new novel I intend on writing and have found the most excellent source for the case of Atlantis as a real part of Earth's history. In THE DESTRUCTION OF ATLANTIS, the author Frank Joseph has accumulated an astounding wealth of evidence that Atlantis at one time did indeed exist. Although he uses the 900 instead of 9000 years ago theory, which he explains along the way why, this book is an eye-opener!
> 
> All the information is perfectly cross referenced, comes from the four corners of the earth, and makes for a very, very convincing case. By far, it's the best book I've read on the city of Atlantis. Anyone wanting to learn about this ancient culture that disappeared beneath the waves should without a doubt get this book as well as it's companion book, SURVIVORS OF ATLANTIS -Their impact on world culture. Both books are absolutely convincing.


 
Perhaps you could join in with the discussions on the site a little more before you try to sell things to us? 

And what is your evidence for the existence of Atlantis?


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## Esioul

Yes, there are references to a 'flood' in various mythology, like the epic of Gilgamsh etc, although no similar references to Atlantis, or none that I've ever heard of.


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## Dr.Jackson

I have to say that I believe that Atlantis existed and still exists in some form.
Generally, myths have some basis in reality and we have evidence for a number of cities that have subsided into the ocean. For example, part of Greek Alexandria fell into the ocean, and you can still find evidence of habitation under the water. It is true that over time the myth has been embellished time and again, with the addition of technology and various abilties attributed to the Atlanteans, but this happens with most mythology.
I am sure that in time the issue will be resolved as long as we can strip down the myth to its bare bones and work on theories. I think it may involve tectonic shifts which led to an earthquake in which the place known to us as Atlantis sank.


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## McMurphy

Dr.Jackson said:


> I have to say that I believe that Atlantis existed and still exists in some form.
> Generally, myths have some basis in reality and we have evidence for a number of cities that have subsided into the ocean. For example, part of Greek Alexandria fell into the ocean, and you can still find evidence of habitation under the water. It is true that over time the myth has been embellished time and again, with the addition of technology and various abilties attributed to the Atlanteans, but this happens with most mythology.
> I am sure that in time the issue will be resolved as long as we can strip down the myth to its bare bones and work on theories. I think it may involve tectonic shifts which led to an earthquake in which the place known to us as Atlantis sank.



Now we are getting somewhere!  Great post.  Perhaps it is too soon in the discussion to rule out any historical influence on sunken city mythologies, after all.


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## Dave

SpaceShip said:


> I think I read somewhere that archaeologists have said they have evidence that the Biblical Flood did happen.  Whereas, do we have any evidence relating to Atlantis?


I remember reading that too, I think it was somewhere in Mesopotamia, around the time of Gilgamesh, and that the accounts in _Genesis_, _Popol Vuh_ and _Critias_ are all of the same flood. 

A Vast mid-Atlantic island? Very unlikely as that is a region where the tectonic plates are separating and the sea-bed is newly formed, and also very deep. Of course, Iceland straddles the mid-Atlantic Ridge, and other island groups such as the Hawaiian islands are each formed from a volcano. It is possible for a volcanic island to have formed and then been destroyed, but it would have to have been a huge one.



polymath said:


> There is very little doubt that the flood myths derive from the melting of the vast glaciers at the end of the last Ice Age. Many civilizations were destroyed by these floods, particularly those by the (then) seaside when sea levels rose sharply around 10,000BC.
> That's not myth, it's solid fact.


Really? Y-chromosome and mtDNA studies have found evidence for a very small population size in the post-Ice Age period. They have found that the Ice age forced the human populations to migrate and cluster into smaller isolated communities, areas described as genetic refuges. In Europe, these refuges were concentrated in three areas: The Basque country between France and Spain, the Balkans and the Ukraine. When the ice retreated the survivors remaining on the European landmass began to expand north wards. With such a low population level anyway, I can't see how a sea-level rise would destroy civilizations. The sea-level rise would not be a catastrophic event either, such as that described in _Genesis_, _Popol Vuh_ and _Critias_. It would happen more slowly over a long period of time, and the people would move with it.


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## Parmenion

has anyone read heavens mirror by graham hancock, some very interesting stuff in there, while he does not claim atlantis, he does pick out some interesting points that there may have been civilisations before our know ancient history.


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## Spartan27

Maye we can say that, Atlantis was the birth place of "western civilization", or at the very least gave birth to "greek type culture". A myth is only a myth until science proves it existed....and that will soon happen


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## Brian G Turner

An historical basis for Atlantis from the Plato story isn't far fetched - the volcanic destruction of the island of Santorini in the Med has long been suggested as a source, as has the flooding of what is now the Scilly Isles - once a major stopping point for Med traffic to Northern Europe.

However, the idea that there was an Atlantis with super technology beyond even the 21st century - that seems to go way beyond the remit of Plato, and essentially into the realm of fiction.

2c.


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## Parmenion

to be classed as advanced back then they onyl needed to have had bronze while others still had stone implements / tools

Has any one read david Gibbins atlantis?
the premise there was that atlantis was based in the black sea, the pillars of hercules (mentioned by plto) is the bosphorus straight and the cataclysmic deluge was when the med broke through the bosphorus gap.

and the premise that atlanteans helped found other nations or helped them grow, is the atlanteans migrating away from the dead sea , and its from this area that european language is possibly suposed to have origionated.

the book is a fun fictional piece but you can see where some of the details, well they do fit nicely.


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## Esioul

I'm not entirely convinced of the credibility of the author mentioned in the first post, nor of Hancock (sorry guys, I have these points of aaaaaagh). 

It seems bizarre if Atlantis was so important that it was never mentioned in any other contemporary or slightly later texts (unless you count Plato). If it existed, it surely would have taken part in the kind of trade which was going on around the whole area at the time and presumably would have been mentioned in economic records, or filtered through as a significant element in the myths of more than one culture/society/civilsiation.


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## Brian G Turner

No, Esioul - the secret masters kept it all otherwise secret from everybody except 20th century pulp hack writers.


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## Esioul

This thread has actually got to be a rather interesting example of how people view/obtain archaeology. Unfortunatly site reports etc which should (hopefully) contain the barest facts and no wild fiction aren't very interesting, nor very easily available, so it's through that kind of fiction that ideas etc are spread.


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## Spartan27

We can't say for sure that advanced tech. to rival that of our time existed their, but we can say the very thing about "from an engineering point of view"  how the pryamids were erected...There is evidence that points to the fact that large amounts of historical information and knowledge is missing. There is also some who believe there was at least one point in time that shows that the Sphinx was affected by water errosion. The carbon dating which indicates the presence of errosion from water dates back prior to the historical dates of the Trojan war, and coincedes to the happenings at Knossos. 

This points to the Santorini blast and most probably the destruction of several civilizations simultaneously in the region via water flooding all at once (including the ones responsible for erecting the pryamids).


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## Parmenion

heavens mirror talks about the sphinx erosion as well and also a hidden room under it, ground surveys show there is one but there is no way in as yet.


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## Spartan27

There has been some new technology that can very accurately date when rock/material/stone has been removed from the ground. The Russians actually have perfected that process. 2 years ago a team of U.S. and russian geologists petitioned Egypt to do this new type of analysis on all of the pyramids and sphinx. They were denied access. Status qou likes the way history is (it appears).


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## Esioul

Spartan27 said:


> We can't say for sure that advanced tech. to rival that of our time existed their, but we can say the very thing about "from an engineering point of view" how the pryamids were erected...There is evidence that points to the fact that large amounts of historical information and knowledge is missing. There is also some who believe there was at least one point in time that shows that the Sphinx was affected by water errosion. The carbon dating which indicates the presence of errosion from water dates back prior to the historical dates of the Trojan war, and coincedes to the happenings at Knossos.
> 
> This points to the Santorini blast and most probably the destruction of several civilizations simultaneously in the region via water flooding all at once (including the ones responsible for erecting the pryamids).


 
The Trojan war is probably not a good point by which to compare dates.One certainly can't use Hoemr as a method of absolute dating, and you have to take Schliemann with a pinch of salt too. 

It's very likely that flooding was happening in Mesopotamia- where a lot of the myths like the Epic of Gilgamesh come from- but this was probably nothing major- just the Tigris/Euphrates. The Nile probably had some flooding episodes as well.


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## McMurphy

Esioul said:


> I'm not entirely convinced of the credibility of the author mentioned in the first post,...



You aren't the only one.  Below is a link to a less-than-impressed author that was used as a source within Joseph Frank's book, Edgar Cayce's Atlantis And Lemuria:  The Lost Continents in the Light of Modern Discoveries:


http://www.huttoncommentaries.com/Special/JosephRev/EConAtlandLemRev.htm#Footnote


​


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## Esioul

“The presenters were all hard-core members of the Scientific Establishment, something of a club one joins upon university graduation. You are expected to support your colleagues’ research, and they yours. If you don’t, you’ll be tossed out, and your tenure snatched away (see _Ancient American, _v. 3, issue 19/20, p. 72).”*1*  ROFL

Apparently he also plagarised.


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## Dave

I said:


> However, the idea that there was an Atlantis with super technology beyond even the 21st century - that seems to go way beyond the remit of Plato, and essentially into the realm of fiction.


I also agree, otherwise archaeologists would have dug up cars, computers and TVs. But can I add that I don't think that is necessary for the myth of a "magical" place with super-technology.

Just look at the ancient Chinese as an example. They did astronomical observations that the western world did not match until the last millennium. The had paper making, printing, gunpowder, and the mariner's compass thousands of years before us. They invented modern agriculture, shipping, decimal mathematics, paper money, umbrellas, wheelbarrows, multi-stage rockets, brandy and whiskey, and the game of chess. 

Any of those things would appear "magical" to someone in the Dark Ages. Marco Polo was not even believed by scholars of his time.

Given how advanced the Aztec and Mayan cultures were, is it inconceivable for there to have been somewhere called Atlantis?

Also there are the Egyptian airplanes


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## Esioul

Valid point, Dave. I heard it wasn't until the start of the industrial revlution that we became as advanced in many ways as the Romans. 

But, I doubt Atlantis, and always will. Mesopotamia is better


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## Fourth Hunter

I believe that there was a natural disaster on an island known to some as Atlantis, but find it hard to believe that the disaster was as serious as it is made out to be.


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## Parmenion

i know its a fiction book but the story does give a nice idea to what atlantis may have been, read Atlantis by david Gibbins.
a fictional adventure story that does get a little carried away at a couple of points but still raises interesting ideas


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## Chrystelia

To the original poster: I suggest you also read 
Atlantis - The Lost Continent Finally Found
by Prof. Arysio Nunes Santos, who is a Nuclear Physicist, 
or go to his site to read his articles on the subject at
The True History Of Atlantis
I mentioned his book sometime ago in the paleolontology forum I think.

As for if Atlantis is real, the dreamer in me would like to believe such a civilisation existed in the distant past of earth history.  However, I don't buy into the stuff about how technologically advanced they were, or that they could breathe underwater and could fly...  I'd rather form my own conclusion based on Plato's account and let my imagination fill in the rest.  I'm not going to let books claiming this and that spoil my perspective and vision on my Atlantis - however, I'm always open to new theories and sadly, people are merely recycling them these days, nothing new.  Rationally speaking, there have been so many sunken civilisations and islands and continent? in the past, many of them could have been Atlantis at one time or another.


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## WarlikeMenelaos

Atlantis is the kind of subject that makes classicists and egyptologists hurry out of the room to avoid the subject. That, or they laugh it off.

The world does seem to be filled with people interested in the Atlantis myth but many (not all) who have studied ancient history via university consider Atlantis to just be an imaginary place sprung from the mind of Plato.

My own dissertation (I study Classical Civilisation at University of Wales, Swansea) will be based around greek mythology and the truths behind the stories.....or at least, that's what I think I'm going to write about.

Anyway, my own theories on Atlantis is that a vast amount of the stuff Plato said (and we've got to remember that he is our ONLY source) are imaginary. Personally I believe that he created Atlantis just to describe his vision of a perfect society, a 'utopia' (which translates 'no place') and he drew on some mythological things to do so.

Homer (or whoever composed 'The Odyssey') writes of various mythical islands that Odysseus visits. These include Aeaea, Ogygia and Skaeria. Skaeria being important because it is described as having great ships that can travel far distances in short times (similar to the way Atlantis is described as a naval power) Also some of the descriptions of the island are similar to Plato's Atlantis (if memory serves)

My own belief is that 'Atlantis' was Minoan Crete which at one time had a large fleet and traded with a great deal of the eastern mediterranian. In the story of Theseus and the Minotaur it is said that Athens has to send boys and girls to Crete as tribute. Could it be possible that this myth does have an element of truth? Was Athens (which was a Mycenaean palace) of that time paying tribute to the Kings of Crete?

Also remember that Theseus slays the Minotaur and frees Athens from having to pay further tribute. Hmmm....well this does kind of link with a the Atlantis myth of a powerful thalassocracy that dominated Athens until a war happened. Also with the eruption on Thera and the eventual collapse of Minoan power could have inspired Plato.

So, in a nice summary, Atlantis did not exist and was the construct of various mythologies and Plato's own imagination. The closest you can get to Atlantis would be, in my own opinion, Minoan Crete of the late bronze age.

My ideas and beliefs may change once I've done more study but that's my current view.


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## dodge

WarlikeMenelaos said:


> Atlantis is the kind of subject that makes classicists and egyptologists hurry out of the room to avoid the subject. That, or they laugh it off.
> 
> The world does seem to be filled with people interested in the Atlantis myth but many (not all) who have studied ancient history via university consider Atlantis to just be an imaginary place sprung from the mind of Plato.
> 
> My own dissertation (I study Classical Civilisation at University of Wales, Swansea) will be based around greek mythology and the truths behind the stories.....or at least, that's what I think I'm going to write about.
> 
> Anyway, my own theories on Atlantis is that a vast amount of the stuff Plato said (and we've got to remember that he is our ONLY source) are imaginary. Personally I believe that he created Atlantis just to describe his vision of a perfect society, a 'utopia' (which translates 'no place') and he drew on some mythological things to do so.
> 
> Homer (or whoever composed 'The Odyssey') writes of various mythical islands that Odysseus visits. These include Aeaea, Ogygia and Skaeria. Skaeria being important because it is described as having great ships that can travel far distances in short times (similar to the way Atlantis is described as a naval power) Also some of the descriptions of the island are similar to Plato's Atlantis (if memory serves)
> 
> My own belief is that 'Atlantis' was Minoan Crete which at one time had a large fleet and traded with a great deal of the eastern mediterranian. In the story of Theseus and the Minotaur it is said that Athens has to send boys and girls to Crete as tribute. Could it be possible that this myth does have an element of truth? Was Athens (which was a Mycenaean palace) of that time paying tribute to the Kings of Crete?
> 
> Also remember that Theseus slays the Minotaur and frees Athens from having to pay further tribute. Hmmm....well this does kind of link with a the Atlantis myth of a powerful thalassocracy that dominated Athens until a war happened. Also with the eruption on Thera and the eventual collapse of Minoan power could have inspired Plato.
> 
> So, in a nice summary, Atlantis did not exist and was the construct of various mythologies and Plato's own imagination. The closest you can get to Atlantis would be, in my own opinion, Minoan Crete of the late bronze age.
> 
> My ideas and beliefs may change once I've done more study but that's my current view.


 

Well I must totally and utterly agree with this fantastic post. Spot on and saved me a lot of brain wracking for city names etc!


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## WarlikeMenelaos

dodge said:


> Well I must totally and utterly agree with this fantastic post. Spot on and saved me a lot of brain wracking for city names etc!


 
Thanks and welcome, hope to hear more from you in the future.

When it comes to Atlantis, I'm glad you agree with me!


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## that old guy

WarlikeMenelaos said:


> Anyway, my own theories on Atlantis is that a vast amount of the stuff Plato said (and we've got to remember that he is our ONLY source) are imaginary. Personally I believe that he created Atlantis just to describe his vision of a perfect society, a 'utopia' (which translates 'no place') and he drew on some mythological things to do so.


 
What has always struck me as odd is how Plato put into Critias'  mouth various things that make Atlantis anything but heroic or noble, never mind technologically advanced. In the Timaeus Atlantis is seeking to enslave the entire Mediterranean and is fought off by the 'noble' Hellenes.

Dunno how you get from there to a Utopia.


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## WarlikeMenelaos

that old guy said:


> What has always struck me as odd is how Plato put into Critias' mouth various things that make Atlantis anything but heroic or noble, never mind technologically advanced. In the Timaeus Atlantis is seeking to enslave the entire Mediterranean and is fought off by the 'noble' Hellenes.
> 
> Dunno how you get from there to a Utopia.


 
Damn, there's my credibility down the toilet huh? Yeah, that was a mistake by me. I was confusing my works by Plato, thinking of Plato's Republic and forgetting that in the other works (Critias and Timaeus) were actually representing Atlantis as the opposite of Plato's perfect society.

Thanks for bringing that mistake forward but, despite my error, it still stands that Plato was making a political statement in his works and probably made up Atlantis just to get over his own views.

I'm gonna sulk now for making such an error.... *hides*


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## moonwave

Atlantis exists in the heart.


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## Medea

I believe that Atlantis did exist but the picture we have got of it is seriously exagerrated...


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## Captain B

I vote a definite may be, possibly.
When you through history there cultures that appear more advanced than others. So you could have a group we call from Atlantis who are a bit more organised 
There is a bit of hobby for different cultures across the globe to build strong pyramids but is this just a thing that humans end up doing. 
Do people like the idea of Atlantis as been the "good old days" when in fact it was just as good/bad as any other major civilisation ?? 
.
I wonder if we did find Atlantis would we know? 
It’s unlikely to have a sign that says "Welcome to Atlantis"
May be we have already found it but just don’t know.
I wonder we got lots of these psychics together if they would be able to pin point where Atlantis was on a map. ? 
I found this on the internet – so it must be true !! ??
http://www.spiritsspeaking.com/VisitorsQuestionsMay02.shtml


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