# Non-European fantasy



## Brian G Turner (Mar 6, 2013)

I love European history. 

Neolithic Europe, early Imperial Rome, late Mediaeval Northern Europe, the Byzantine Empire of Justinian ... the list could go on.

What is especially appealing is the variety of landscapes and people covered - the Mediterranean Sea, near Asia and North Africa are intimately bound with every development in Europe The deserts of Egypt and the frosty fjords of Norway are both bound into European history.

That in itself provides a huge amount of inspiration to work with.

But ... have we really been successful with using other parts of the world for inspiration? 

Geographically we're talking about China, India, Russia, South America, Africa, and the Middle East (let's not forget ancient Mesopotamia!)

I'm especially surprised that we don't see more of the ancient world in fantasy (perhaps I've not read widely enough?) as this is a period when gods and magic would have been regarded as real.

I mean, look at the images here - is this not fantasy?
http://ferrebeekeeper.wordpress.com/2010/05/26/the-first-city/

In which case, it would be great to see if we can use this thread as a treasure trove of references to interesting non-European fantasy and historical fiction.


----------



## AnyaKimlin (Mar 6, 2013)

Lian Hearne's books come to mind - based in Japan.

Stephanie Dray's Lily of the Nile series are books I really enjoyed.

Jeannie Linn's are romance/historical but have a fantasy bent to them with the martial arts involved.  They are Asian.


----------



## The Judge (Mar 6, 2013)

*Aliette de Bodard* has written novels set in South America, base on the Aztec empire http://angryrobotbooks.com/our-auth.../servant-of-the-underworld-aliette-de-bodard/

She also writes a lot of Asian-culture based short stories, but I get the impression most of them are more SF than fantasy.  (I've only read a few myself and they were SF.)

And *Stephen Palmer* has written at least one book based in and about Africa/African legends which I think is fantasy albeit futuristic.  http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/p/stephen-palmer/muezzinland.htm (Sorry if I've got that wrong, Stephen!)


----------



## Sourdust (Mar 6, 2013)

Do you mean fantasy by non-European authors, or things simply set outside Europe?

There's a long tradition of 'Oriental Fantasy', partly inspired by the Western discovery of the _Arabian Nights_, that generally presents an exotic European fantasy of 'the East' which bears little resemblance to historical reality. 

An important early example is William Beckford's _Vathek_ (1786), which is still very readable. Skipping to the beginning of the 20th century, there are the Kai Lung stories of Ernest Bramah, the _Gods of Pegana_ tales of Lord Dunsany (clearly inspired by Eastern scriptures/creation myths), and the Japanese ghost stories of Lafcadio Hearn (who had at least lived in Japan and studied his sources).

Obviously this kind of thing came to be seen as politically problematic over time (cf. Edward Said's _Orientalism_). There are a few latter-day exponents, notably Barry Hughart, but it's not an area I've looked into extensively. (On an SF note, there's Ian McDonald, whose _River of Gods_ and _The Dervish House_ are set in India and Turkey respectively.) This is before we get on to fantasy by actual Asian authors.

I get the impression from your posts (I, Brian) that you are particularly interested in realistic historical and geographical detail, in which case none of the above (except McDonald) will prove especially satisfactory: Western visions of the East tend to be particularly hazy. I'm sure there is much non-fiction history and travel writing which might better fit the bill.


----------



## j d worthington (Mar 6, 2013)

Sourdust mentioned Hughart; certainly that is one of the better known recent examples (and quite a good one):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ch...The_Chronicles_of_Master_Li_and_Number_Ten_Ox

And, if you're _not_ aiming at historical accuracy, there are such things as F. Marion Crawford's *Khaled*, or Isidore Haiblum's *The Tsaddik of the Seven Wonders*, Joy Chant's *Red Moon and Black Mountain* (Native American), etc....


----------



## Nerds_feather (Mar 6, 2013)

The Judge said:


> *Aliette de Bodard* has written novels set in South America, base on the Aztec empire http://angryrobotbooks.com/our-auth.../servant-of-the-underworld-aliette-de-bodard/
> 
> She also writes a lot of Asian-culture based short stories, but I get the impression most of them are more SF than fantasy.  (I've only read a few myself and they were SF.)



It's actually more novel than that...the Xuya universe is predicted on an alternate historical timeline in which China discovered the Americas before the Spanish and Portuguese. This allows her to tell stories taking place anywhere from the 15th century to the far future. It's a very interesting framework, and quite interesting to see the many ways she works within it.


----------



## Anne Lyle (Mar 6, 2013)

Daniel Abraham's _Long Price Quartet_ is set in a Far-Eastern-inspired world - very good if you like subtle political fantasy rather than gung-ho action. As someone who grew up on _The Water Margin_ and _Shogun_, I love Chinese/Japanese fantasy but I don't feel qualified to write it. I guess I'm scared to get it wrong!

Re the ancient world, I can't think of much fantasy, but there's some great historical fiction. I enjoyed Lindsay Davis' detective series set in Ancient Rome, for example. 

I've been tempted to write some ancient world fantasy (wrote a short story years ago that still needs work on the ending), but I think I'd have to do something about the costumes - togas and sandals just aren't sexy!


----------



## Nerds_feather (Mar 6, 2013)

Okay, a few ones that I've found interesting:

1. *Among Thieves* by Doug Hulick

Still reading this one, but it's set in a pseudo-Byzantine society, albeit with a hardy dose of Renaissance Italy thrown in for good measure. It's well done and, like all good fantasy worlds, takes the historical soup as a starting point but doesn't feel chained to it.

2. *Throne of the Crescent Moon* by Saladin Ahmed

I can't say I loved this book, but I did appreciate the way he built his world from the 1001 Nights mythos. It gets bonus points for reminding readers how these stories are, or at least used to be, a part of the Western mythological canon as well. 

3. *Rusalka* and *Chernevog* by CJ Cherryh

Been decades since I read these, but I remember the Russian-inspired setting as rich and engrossing.  

4. *The Killing Moon* by NJ Jemisin

Loosely based on ancient Egypt, the book is also an example of a writer using fantasy as a means of coming to grips with real world issues.


----------



## Glisterspeck (Mar 6, 2013)

AnyaKimlin said:


> Lian Hearne's books come to mind - based in Japan.



I liked these quite a bit.


----------



## Nerds_feather (Mar 6, 2013)

I'd also like to bring up a potential issue for Western authors setting fantasy (or SF) novels outside the West: appropriation and exoticization.

In postcolonial theory, *appropriation* is when the privileged (white westerners usually) go take the culture and history of the colonized (non-white, non-westerners usually) and use it for their own material gain. *Exoticization* is when the privileged describe the colonized (either people or culture) in objectifying terms.  

Obviously people draw the lines for these things in very different places--some even concluding that authors *can't* write about foreign social settings without committing one or both of these "cardinal sins." Others think you can avoid them by being careful, by being respectful and by "beta testing" the work with people from that social setting. I'm more in that second category, but do think the risk of making mistakes grow exponentially when you write about something you don't have significant personal experience with.  

This is a fairly interesting attempt (from the ancient days of 2007) by a blogger to come to grips with these challenging topics and what they mean to her.

But I don't think this should put people off--a lot of us have complicated personal biographies that aren't strictly monocultural or mononational, and even for those of us who don't, there are many powerful sources for inspiration beyond the oversaturated domains of alt-America and alt-Europe. Nevertheless, these are serious pitfalls writers should be aware of and try to avoid.


----------



## Brian G Turner (Mar 6, 2013)

Appropriation occurs everywhere, and where used badly, is simply bad writing. I think we have to simply recognise it as that. 

That's neither here nor there in this instance, as I'm presuming we'll be looking at more historical periods anyway where research would be a necessary prerequisite. 

For example, I linked to a piece on the ancient Sumerian city of Eridu - a fine subject for any historical fantasy/fiction. I would expect - hope - that there is relatively recent fiction based in ancient Mesopotamian cultures - they would certainly be worth reading. Are there any, though?


----------



## Anne Lyle (Mar 7, 2013)

Nerds_feather said:


> Others think you can avoid them by being careful, by being respectful and by "beta testing" the work with people from that social setting. I'm more in that second category, but do think the risk of making mistakes grow exponentially when you write about something you don't have significant personal experience with.



That's pretty much my stance - I'm very cautious, and in the one case in my historical fantasy where I had significant non-white characters (rather than just mentioned in passing), I had a Muslim friend beta-read my novel (the characters were Muslims from the eastern Mediterranean). She picked up on some errors that I'm very glad didn't make it into the finished book!

I would however hesitate to set a book predominantly in a non-European culture, just because my own experiences have been very limited. I grew up in a town that had plenty of European immigrants but few PoC...


----------



## Connavar (Mar 9, 2013)

Nerds_feather said:


> I'm more in that second category, but do think the risk of making mistakes grow exponentially when you write about something you don't have significant personal experience with.



That doesn't have to be true if the author is interested and is willing to do his research, homework well.  There are great adventure authors like Harold Lamb, Robert E Howard who wrote well about Middle east,Asian historical adventure using history, knowledge about cultures that takes years of Uni studies to learn to day.   Those authors know that history better than some authors from that region today.  Its about interest and not location.

I know all about post-colonial theory having studied it, its scholars works and i find it fascinating but you cant avoid *Exoticization* by erasing the other, the person from other cultures,part of the world.  By not writing about other cultures its like there is only White Europeans in the west.  There are million of readers like me in Western world who wants to read Fantasy set in different cultures that isnt the same as European setting.  Thats what reader like me wants from the authors in SFF chrons and the ones who become authors like this.  

You cant be too PC and avoid writing about the other.  I rather see a writer fail then be afraid of writing SFF about other cultures than his own.   I will take that before another pseudo medevil England fantasy.....


----------



## Nerds_feather (Mar 9, 2013)

Connavar said:


> That doesn't have to be true if the author is interested and is willing to do his research, homework well.  There are great adventure authors like Harold Lamb, Robert E Howard who wrote well about Middle east,Asian historical adventure using history, knowledge about cultures that takes years of Uni studies to learn to day.   Those authors know that history better than some authors from that region today.  Its about interest and not location.
> 
> I know all about post-colonial theory having studied it, its scholars works and i find it fascinating but you cant avoid *Exoticization* by erasing the other, the person from other cultures,part of the world.  By not writing about other cultures its like there is only White Europeans in the west.  There are million of readers like me in Western world who wants to read Fantasy set in different cultures that isnt the same as European setting.  Thats what reader like me wants from the authors in SFF chrons and the ones who become authors like this.
> 
> You cant be too PC and avoid writing about the other.  I rather see a writer fail then be afraid of writing SFF about other cultures than his own.   I will take that before another pseudo medevil England fantasy.....



I didn't mean that writing about a culture you don't have significant experience with entails exoticizing, just that the risk of doing so grows, i.e. you have to be much more careful and also wary of the pitfalls.


----------



## Connavar (Mar 9, 2013)

I know what you mean Nerds, i just want to put it out to this thread that i think the risks are minor compared to the rewards.   Certain types of fantasy i just get sick of because it follows early 1900 fantasy series that was all medieval Europe stereotype world that just gets recycled over and over.  Its not 1950s Europe anymore when certain famous English professor wrote LOTR.


I have to support Saladin Ahmed, NJ Jemshin, Abraham just to show there are people who want other culture settings.


----------



## Nerds_feather (Mar 9, 2013)

I agree on that point. The world is rich in mythologies and other sources of inspiration outside a very narrow band of mythologized Europe. Wholeheartedly agree. Guess I see it as what you'd call a high risk/high reward strategy, compared with the low risk/low reward alternative.


----------



## Yog-Sothoth (Mar 28, 2013)

I said:


> (let's not forget ancient Mesopotamia!)


----------



## Yog-Sothoth (Mar 29, 2013)

I said:


> Africa










> When the harmonious and quiet life of the 'Chosen bride' Rumeisa was disturbed by creatures of the darkness in ancient Merawa, nothing could have prepared her for the journey ahead. In a bid to learn more about her past, and to stay out of the claws of her malevolent pursuers, Rumeisa goes beyond the old city gates of Merawa and explores the contrasting landscapes and cities of Somalia, a country ruled by demons.
> 
> Rumeisa's enemies are many, and the challenges ahead are daunting, but with her young protector Samatar on her side, she finds the courage to fight, to inspire and to survive as they make their way to Citadel City before Lord Hoohhh! and his army of demons can arrive to claim her as a bride.  ----- *HOOHHH! Volume I: Night of The Golden Moon.*



^I loved this one, set in Africa.


----------



## Yog-Sothoth (Mar 29, 2013)

I said:


> the Middle East



This one is my favorite, the chapters involving that ancient giant snake is probably one of the most fascinating pieces of fiction I have ever read:


----------



## Nerds_feather (May 1, 2013)

Well, I just finished Elizabeth Bear's *Range of Ghosts*, and I highly recommend it. It's been described as a "silk road fantasy."


----------



## Teresa Edgerton (May 1, 2013)

I liked *Range of Ghosts*, too.

Don't know if you would consider it Non-European enough, but there is a lot of fantasy being published now that takes place in the American West in the 19th century.  Our pioneer culture was significantly different from its European (primarily British) beginnings.


----------



## EloiseA (May 2, 2013)

I like the sci-fi fantasies of Igbo writer Nnedi Okorafor, especially _Who Fears Death_.

Ivor Hartman's  _AfroSf: Science Fiction by African Writers_ (2012) has  pieces  by Tendai Huchu, Cristy Zinn and Ashley Jacobs, some to do with the 'new Mzansi'  writing from southern Africa.

I do think many  of the newer writers on Africa (taking a lead from Teju Cole, Taiye Selasi or Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie) are moving beyond that outdated appropriating, exoticising, erasing and  stereotypical tropes of Otherness. What is sometimes called the Afripolitan or African diaspora has heightened awareness of what makes for  not just inauthentic but unconvincing projections.


----------



## Nerds_feather (May 2, 2013)

EloiseA said:


> Ivor Hartman's  _AfroSf: Science Fiction by African Writers_ (2012) has  pieces  by Tendai Huchu, Cristy Zinn and Ashley Jacobs, some to do with the 'new Mzansi'  writing from southern Africa.
> 
> I do think many  of the newer writers on Africa (taking a lead from Teju Cole, Taiye Selasi or Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie) are moving beyond that outdated appropriating, exoticising, erasing and  stereotypical tropes of Otherness. What is sometimes called the Afripolitan or African diaspora has heightened awareness of what makes for  not just inauthentic but unconvincing projections.



Just want to second *AfroSF*...that's a really great anthology.


----------



## Teresa Edgerton (May 2, 2013)

I should have mentioned before (in case anyone is thinking about reading it), that I, too, liked _Desert of Souls._  I wouldn't say, as Yog-Sothoth did, that it was one of the most fascinating things I've read, but it was fun and suspenseful and exciting.

I barely remember reading _Gilgamesh the King_, it was so long ago, but I seem to remember being impressed.


----------

