# Windows 10 - yes or no?



## Kerrybuchanan

I have just upgraded to Windows 10 and wondered what other windows users are thinking about it.

It seems to me so far that it might just be another Microsoft gimmick, but I'm definitely not up to date in IT gossip these days. Any comments?

Cue @Ray McCarthy to tell me not to use Windows anything lol!


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## Brian G Turner

There are old software programs - especially a couple of old computer games I like to play - that I'm concerned won't run properly in Windows 10. There's certainly been issues running some even in Windows 7 - not least Age of Empires II, which is by Microsoft!


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## Kerrybuchanan

I remember my disappointment when my favourite game (King's Quest V from memory) wouldn't play on Windows (it was MS DOS-based!)


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## TØny Hine

I won't upgrade until it is well established and all the bugs are ironed out!

I understand its supposed to work on other platforms but not mobiles yet?

I also heard a rumour that Microsoft is going to force everyone to upgrade automatically. I'm not sure I will like that!


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## Overread

I'll upgrade in a few months time; for me Windows 8.1 works really darn well so I'm under no pressure to upgrade. The only real bonus is DirectX12 (for me) and honestly it will be a long while before that becomes mandatory for a gamer to have access to. Right now its a boon and nothing more so I'll wait and let the bugs be ironed out.


Also Kerry check out www.gog.com they patch old games to work with new modern OS systems and they've got Kings Quest V (as well as the rest of the series) on there - with XP, Vista, 7, 8, 10 all listed as compatible!


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## Ray McCarthy

It's a train wreck, a disaster in the making. 

This OS isn't ready or finished. Even if it was, the very ideas it's built on are crazy. It's poorer compatibility in some cases than WINE on Linux.

It's so "good", that like a first "fix" the dealer is giving it free. It later will require paid cloud services to work.

Ironically Win7 OUGHT to have been free to Vista users. Win 7 is nothing more than a fixed Vista.

If you are on Win7 or Win  8.1 don't upgrade.
If you are on XP or Vista, then either go to Win 7 or Linux.

Don't even think of upgrading for 6 months,* if ever!*
A worse debacle than Windows ME, Vista or Win 8.0
(anyone on Win 8.0 needs to go to Win 8.1)

I sold, Installed and supported and programmed MS products for well over 10 years.

see  (especially comments!)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/28/windows_10_update_nvidia_driver_conflict/
(The issue isn't Nvidia or the driver conflict but how Win10 does updates).

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/29/windows_10_sysadmin_says_average_joe_will_be_happy/
maybe ...


It about trying to move to a cloud Subscription model like Adobe and Office 365.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/29/office_mobile_apps_general_availability/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/28/microsoft_paying_windows_server_2003_migrations/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/27/windows_10_small_tablet_not_release_ready/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/29/windows_10_review/


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## Ray McCarthy

One OS and a schizophrenic GUI to rule them all?  madness.

It was crazy to inflict Win95 GUI on 320 x 240 PDAs and later early MS phone (Windows CE)
The Universal Apps are no better than widgets for a desktop/laptop.
With Win 8.0 MS made the opposite mistake of inflicting GUI derived from Zune to desktop.
Win 10 is an unfinished botched mix of Win7 (fixed Vista) and Win 8.1 (hurriedly patched win 8.0) when what people really wanted and needed was an updated version of XP.

MS needs to forget phones and Tablets. Sell their Apps for Android and iOS. They bought Nokia's phone division, but NOT the Brand or any IP. They have now written off $10 Billion and nearly 20,000 employees. The ARM Windows tablet is dead. Windows Phone will soon be dead. Yet they are killing the Laptop/Workstation market and torturing users for a market they can never be more than 5% of.

Their entire one ring to rule them all and cloud subscription model is even crazier than all the Balmer years and stupid Office Ribbon.
Also the new update scheme and no more windows versions needs  real broadband and sooner than later will "brick" millions of computers at once.

What 99% of people want isn't stupid new cloud paradigms but fixing bugs. Some bugs and GUI stupidity from 1995 Explorer are STILL there. Other things are gratuitously changed.  What 99% of people really want is APPROPRIATE different interfaces for
1) Very small screen
2) large phone to medium Tablet touch screen
3) Netbooks / laptops / desktops were the work generally makes "touch" pointless even if it existed
4) A GUI for 1.2m to 2m viewing distance only for Media mode, set boxes / TV screens
5) Option for different UI on servers.

Apple has iOS and OS X separate for good reason.
Linux has Android shell for larger phones and most tablets
Linux has a variety of desktop / GUIs, though in copying Apple & MS Ubuntu has become nearly the worst instead of best.
Linux set boxes, Routers, TVs, servers all have different GUIs.
Radically different Linux Gadgets have different OS customisation.
More Servers now run Linux.
Kindle, Kobo, Android, TVs all run versions of Linux now.


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## Ray McCarthy

The Register is an expert Tech site massive reaction to idea Win10 is a train wreck!
http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2015/07/28/windows_10_update_nvidia_driver_conflict/
20 total votes on something is normally a lot. 56 to 17 at time of posting.


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## Ray McCarthy

If you accepted the auto update icon (MS should NEVER have pushed that update! so Arrogant!) you can search for the MS Knowledge Base article that removes that, so you system won't auto update.

I've installed
Win 2, 3, 3.1(first one that worked!), 3.11, Win95 (three versions) Win 98, Win98SE, Win Me
NT 3.5, NT 3.51, NT 4.0 (workstation, server, enterprise and Cluster), NT 5.0 = Win2K (workstation, server), NT 5.1 = XP, NT5.2 = Server 2003, Vista, Win 7,
Used Win 8 and Win 8.1

Updates are always poor compared to clean install with no OS on disc.

I've also installed/ used UNIX since 1985, Linux 1998
OS/2, Minix, RiscOS

Also used OS8, OS9 and various OSX.

Built Linux and QT GUI for 4G VOIP handset/smart phone 2006


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## J Riff

So.... why are they doing this?

I've used 3.1, 95, 98, XP,Win7.  I tried to work on 8 when it came out and was very annoyed at the desktop and other features.
XP still works, many Govt. offices here use it. Any chance of XP2016?

Linux can be very good, for anyone thinking of trying it, though I wouldn't know what versions to recommend.


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## Ray McCarthy

This is nuts
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/29/windows_10_bug_alert_start_menu_breaks_512_entries/


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## Ray McCarthy

J Riff said:


> why are they doing this


1) They want a subscription model
2) They are arrogant
3) Since 2002 they have been drifting further from real users needs and desires, instead concentrating on initial impressions and eye candy. They now officially depreciate Vista's Aero
4) It seems that simply doing more stable, bug fixed, better performance version of 1994 NT 3.5, 1996 NT 4.0 or 2002 XP (NT 5.1) is too boring.
5) Chasing rainbows: iOS, Android, Google (Bing), Smart Phones, Set Boxes, Tablets: Trying to make one fit all. Copy the flashy bits of competitors without understanding WHY those products and services are 50x more popular than their own.

It was stupid EVER calling something that couldn't run desktop x86 code, "windows". It was stupid sacrificing their own NT development for the game console that was Win95. It took till 2002 to start convincing the mass of business and non-game users to switch to NT (NT 5.1 aka Windows XP, yet it had the seeds of Vista already sown, you need to spend over half an hour changing default settings on XP on a new install, All most all those that should be off by default are still on in Vista, Win 7, Win 8, Win 8.1 and Win 10.

There is very much more.
Read this and the damming comments. Even if Satya Nadella was doing the right things (he is partially) it will take years to fix.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/27/ballmers_billion_dollar_blunders/

Satya Nadella is too fixated on Cloud. Win 10 is a bad design and too quickly rushed out for what is supposed to be the last version of windows.


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## psikeyhackr

I know one person that has upgraded.  He says the gadgets he used under Windows 7 don't work.

They showed him stuff like CPU usage and temperature and network activity on the desktop.

psik


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## Mark Ragland

Ray McCarthy said:


> It's a train wreck, a disaster in the making.
> 
> This OS isn't ready or finished. Even if it was, the very ideas it's built on are crazy. It's poorer compatibility in some cases than WINE on Linux.
> 
> It's so "good", that like a first "fix" the dealer is giving it free. It later will require paid cloud services to work.
> 
> Ironically Win7 OUGHT to have been free to Vista users. Win 7 is nothing more than a fixed Vista.
> 
> If you are on Win7 or Win  8.1 don't upgrade.
> If you are on XP or Vista, then either go to Win 7 or Linux.
> 
> Don't even think of upgrading for 6 months,* if ever!*
> A worse debacle than Windows ME, Vista or Win 8.0
> (anyone on Win 8.0 needs to go to Win 8.1)
> 
> I sold, Installed and supported and programmed MS products for well over 10 years.
> 
> see  (especially comments!)
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/28/windows_10_update_nvidia_driver_conflict/
> (The issue isn't Nvidia or the driver conflict but how Win10 does updates).
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/29/windows_10_sysadmin_says_average_joe_will_be_happy/
> maybe ...
> 
> 
> It about trying to move to a cloud Subscription model like Adobe and Office 365.
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/29/office_mobile_apps_general_availability/
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/28/microsoft_paying_windows_server_2003_migrations/
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/27/windows_10_small_tablet_not_release_ready/
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/29/windows_10_review/



I made a mistake when I got my laptop. I'm running Windows Vista Home Premium. If I go to Windows 7, can I upgrade to Windows 10 once all the bugs are worked out?

Thanks!


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## J Riff

Eek, no - change Vista for Win7 and stay there! So far Win7 is acceptable on a bunch of older laptops I have, whereas Vista is NOT. I suppose there may be exceptions but why fix it if not broken.


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## Kerrybuchanan

I second @J Riff about Windows 7. It worked! I have found that MS seem to alternate good and bad operating systems: XP good, Vista bad; 7 good; 8 awful. That's one of the reasons I upgraded (most uncharacteristically) so soon. Besides, I REALLY hated 8.1. It was Vista (which I managed to avoid by insisting that my then new computer was XP) all over again.


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## Dave

Okay, I have a question: It seems that malware and virus problems are more serious in the newest versions of Windows.

Is that perception even correct? 

If it is (two questions!) then is it because they haven't yet ironed out all the bugs and loopholes in those versions or because the hackers go for the OS used by the largest number of people and so target the OS used by the majority?
(okay three questions) Or is it a little of both?


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## Ray McCarthy

Virus and Malware, if you are behind a fire wall (NEVER use a 3G dongle or other modem without a firewall, use a 3G WiFi point) mostly depend on users to install them. Especially if you have NoScript or similar and disable PDF, Flash, Music  & Video player plugins by default. I only enable flash on known safe sources.

So the main aspect isn't the OS or if you have AV, *but user behaviour*. Not having remote content enabled in email. Not using Outlook Client,  Not having Macro enabled by default, not clicking on attachments or links in emails unless you expected it from the sender. Hover on links in apparently OK emails to see if real URL is dubious.

On windows (ANY VERSION) with all extra services disabled, behind a firewall, with correct use of Browser and NoScript and NO AV, you probably won't ever have malware if you use Windows properly. 
Use silentRunners.org VB script and gmer root kit detector to check periodically.

It's a bit like promiscuity vs fidelity.

Almost all malware is actually installed by the user.

Don't add tool bars, "codecs" from random sites etc.
Don't install pirate software.
Don't download and install random screen savers. They are programs.

This advice for XP with variations for extra new services that should be disabled* applies 100% to Vista, Win7, Win 8.x and Win 10.*
http://www.wattystuff.net/2014/03/dont-panic/

Microsoft ALWAYS ships with almost every service on (ALL the ones for incoming are vulnerable and NONE are needed except on a Server, so turn them off!) and dangerous or stupid defaults.

Switch off File and Printer sharing!  Only use a real server or a NAS, never "share" from your tablet/Laptop/Workstation!
Disable remote Registry and remote assistance etc.
Disable every form of Autorun.
Never use a public USB charging point unless you have a cable with data pair disconnected. Malware via USB.
Only use a VPN (possibly to server at home or home router to access Internet) with Public WiFi (Man in Middle Attack) or else don't check email or use eBay, Paypal, banking etc. Even HTTPS is no protection on WiFi.

AV programs are a crutch. Doesn't stop people installing stuff themselves. Not a substitute for education/training. They often damage systems with false positives and slow systems too much. Set to only scan on demand and only scan new files.
Don't run Browser full screen, only full height.
Learn what file endings are executable (exe, com, bat, cmd, scn, vbs are the common ones)
Turn on show file endings in Explorer


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## Ray McCarthy

Dave said:


> or because the hackers go for the OS used by the largest number of people and so target the OS used by the majority?


Yes. But the vulnerabilities are the same pretty much in every version of windows. Because MS adds NEW features and APIs, the newer OSes get extra vulnerabilities. Virtually all of these vanish if you switch off / disable features not needed.

A stupid decision at 1996 moving from NT 3.51 (really secure and stable) was moving stuff to Kernel for a 10% performance increase and to make Direct X compatible (itself and later Direct 3D a pile of insecure poo to make porting DOS and Console games easier and faster). So every NT since NT4.0 (Win2K, XP, Vista, 7, 8 and 10 are all NT versions.  Win10 is really version 7.x of NT) is less stable and secure. Latest major kernel vulnerability for EVERY non-Dos Windows is Adobe Font system. Can infect PC via crafted PDF or web page with embedded fonts.
Only ever download PDFs. Use Noscript to block dubious 3rd party domains etc.

Note that there was never ANY security in Non-NT versions, DOS hosted Win1, Win2.x Win3.x, Win95, Win98 and the hidden DOS totally broken WinME (Win98SE was far better. What were they thinking of?)


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## Ray McCarthy

Depressing stuff:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/30/win10_real_users_mail/


> Cheer up though. Gabe Aul has promised that both “Windows 10 is the last version of Windows” and “Windows as a Service” means continual updates.



Flat is Evil.  Aero is Evil. Animations are evil.  The sort of 3D hint introduced with Win 3.11 is best.  My desktops on all Windows and Linux are all customised to be clean, plain and 3D buttons etc like Win3.11 / Win 9.x / NT 3.51 / NT4.0
Never kept the Teletubby animated interface introduced with XP.  Some programs strangely only work properly with GUI set to "Classic" before customisation, and theme manager disabled.

The Plug-in MMC for Devices, Storage, Services etc has had bugs ever since XP, still not fixed in Win 8.1
The GUI access to Networking, Control Panel Items, Devices, Storage, Services has got ever more fragmented since NT 5.x, (Win2K, XP, Win 2003 Server etc), a jump worst with NT 6.x (Vista, Win 7) and terrible with Win8.x. Win10 is a disaster. Makes worst Linux desktops look good.
 The simple 3D of two highlights and two shadows for buttons etc need not add any extra CPU use  or extra battery use at all. Even a 12MHz 386SX could manage fine. It's an affectation. Problem with websites too. What do you click on?


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## Mark Ragland

What steps are involved in changing my PC's OS from Vista to Windows 7? Sounds difficult.

Thanks!


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## Venusian Broon

Kerrybuchanan said:


> I have just upgraded to Windows 10 and wondered what other windows users are thinking about it.
> 
> It seems to me so far that it might just be another Microsoft gimmick, but I'm definitely not up to date in IT gossip these days. Any comments?
> 
> Cue @Ray McCarthy to tell me not to use Windows anything lol!



Hey Kerry, I quite liked 8.1 (no choice, I got a new computer with it preinstalled) and never had a problem with it. But then I changed to 10 today, really because I've never ever had a problem with any windows operating system and I just get on and quickly pick up any changes. 

As for the Beta aspect...well yeah that's an issue, but then to be frank practically every software code is now being continually patched up - some on a daily basis (it you are playing EVE Online or Minecraft for example!) Truth be told I probably don't use my PC for anything more technical than a bit of simple C# programming, word & excel and perma-camping on Chrons. I probably have never and will never use 90% of the software they are trying to make me use.

Cue getting shouted at by more technical minded bods...


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## J Riff

There you go, folks. Great advice Ray. I remember learning how to hover and check out URLS, and to not DL anything .exe, com, bat etc. - anything that isn't what it says it is. Learn this and you eliminate the chance of actually DLing and installing malware. If confused, refer back to this post and look up all the stuff Ray is on about, lots of which is news to me, and very helpful.


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## Venusian Broon

J Riff said:


> There you go, folks. Great advice Ray. I remember learning how to hover and check out URLS, and to not DL anything .exe, com, bat etc. - anything that isn't what it says it is. Learn this and you eliminate the chance of actually DLing and installing malware. If confused, refer back to this post and look up all the stuff Ray is on about, lots of which is news to me, and very helpful.



Exactly, malware avoidance 101 - the human is the weakest link - been avoiding strange attachments and downloads since I started using Windows 95.


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## Ray McCarthy

*Arrrrgh  ... it gets worse!*


> Windows 10 employs a system of sharing updates between users’ PCs and across their own networks rather than download direct from Microsoft. The system is called Windows Update Delivery Optimisation, or WUDO.



This means YOUR upload (which is usually more limited speed) is SLOWER because Microsoft is using it instead of their own servers (aka so called "cloud"). If you have a data cap, it's the sum of ALL activity on your internet package, not just file downloads.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/31/windows_10_torrent_updates/

*EVIL! *


> The system is turned on by default and can only be turned off by digging into advanced options under Windows Update, diving deep in update and then poking about in security and settings.



*Browser Choice.*
If you *upgrade in place* to Win 10, Microsoft removes you current browser choice and has a new different method for you to select default browser.  This breaks their agreement with EU.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/0...in_nadellas_face_says_microsoft_kills_choice/


> ... if users opt for 'express' installation, then everything will get reset to whatever defaults MS deem necessary/desirable, whereas those who opt for a fully controlled install get to determine exactly what stays and what goes.
> ...
> Yeah, like the on-by-default sending your browsing history to Microsoft, it's aimed at the unsuspecting majority.


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## Vertigo

That is a horrendous one. I live in the highlands of Scotland and my upload speeds are not great. The last thing I need is to have my operating system chewing up a chunk of that bandwidth supplying others with the updates.

However my biggest fear is not being able to turn off the automatic updates. I travel a fair bit and the last thing I need when travelling is for Windows to announce that I mustn't turn off my computer for the next hour as it's doing updates and if I do turn it off I'm liable to mess up the whole os. No Thank you!


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## Ray McCarthy

For years we had NT4.0 Server enterprise at home in attic (only on LAN). Then the updates got to much for 10 computers, we had to upgrade to W2K server for WSUS, the HW wasn't suitable for Server 2003! Then as machines used linux or kids grew up, married and left home WSUS was an annoyance, so we re-installed Server with Debian (not the same server HW as 1997 when we changed from a 386 running NT3.51 to a 486 for NT 4.0 Server). Then the XP updates stopped anyway. Most update traffic here is now for Linux, when we want to. The PS4 gets taken to a house with Cable Broadband, it's not allowed our LAN!

P.S. With ANY Software on ANYTHING, NEVER EVER select typical/express/automatic. ALWAYS choose Manual or Customise and UNDERSTAND what each option does. Expand the selection/option tree.


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## Venusian Broon

Ray McCarthy said:


> *Browser Choice.*
> If you *upgrade in place* to Win 10, Microsoft removes you current browser choice and has a new different method for you to select default browser.  This breaks their agreement with EU.
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/0...in_nadellas_face_says_microsoft_kills_choice/



That is definitely true - however I had changed my default browser back to what it had been originally within a minute of Win 10 starting up


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## alchemist

Think I'll just stick with 8.1 for now. Thanks folks!


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## Venusian Broon

@Kerrybuchanan Well after under a week I decided to go back to 8.1. Why? 

Three reasons

1) It's very easy to go back to 8.1 from 10 - only takes minutes.
2) I had a whole bunch of games that required Directx 9 to work. For some reason they work fine in 8.1 but in 10 they've upgraded to Directx 12 and try as I could to make the damn system recognise some sort of backwards compatibility on this matter, it would not allow Directx 9 games to work (if the games were current, they would of course be patched, but these are ancient fossils that either someone will have to find a workaround or they will just have to stay broken)
3) In the few days I had Windows 10 it actually froze on me a couple of times, needing me to restart my whole machine. Also had problems with Excel. I _never_ had anything at all like this with Windows 8.1. And it's not because I've got an old machine - I only bought this machine last year, it's a beast.

p.s. for those that are thinking about it - you have a month to recover Windows 8.1 very simply (it in the settings menu - system - recovery from memory) After that I think it becomes quite a chore if you want to. 

I think I'll leave windows 10 for my next PC, whenever that is...


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## Kerrybuchanan

I might back up and do the same....

Since I upgraded, Microsoft Outlook will not send any emails with attachments, although it will receive them fine and sends some without attachments. I've had to resort to webmail to be safe, or use the ipad.


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## Ray McCarthy

It might be OK in 6 months, or it may be obvious then that this is Win ME.


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## AnyaKimlin

My husband is an OpenSource devotee (Over the last 13 years we've been married, only brand new machines have any Microsoft products on them). Windows 98 is the last one I used consistently.  However, he's been working with Windows 10, the professional version for awhile and quite likes it.  It's clearly not giving him any major headaches at work and the people across the organisation are adjusting to it fairly easily.

 I've had Windows 8 on a laptop for a week and want to smash the whole machine.  All I want is to be able to type, listen to music and check the internet sites I like without jumping through hoops to do it.  I won't be updating - I'll be asking for whatever Linux operating system we're on right now.


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## DPWright

First impressions are good. I think its less 'clunky' that 8.1, certainly less clunky than windows 8 - runs faster and appears to be user friendly. I love the synchronisation it plans to have with the Xbox One but that is a bad thing I suppose as that is most definitely a distraction from my writing! Although I have had a couple of problems trying to play older games - possibly Direct X issues - however I have been assured that a patch is coming to the rescue....


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## Ray McCarthy

I have Linux Mint with Mate GUI.

I also have on various machines, plain Debian, Ubuntu, Win3.11 Win98, Wn2K, XP, Android, DOS 3.3, DOS 6.22 and CP/M
Did have CentOS, Redhat, OS/2 Warp, NT3.15, NT4.0, Minix, Cromix, DRMultiDos, UCSD-p system, Windows CE 6.0, Server 2003

Currently best solution for Windows is 7.
It's FAR too early for Win 10 and Shame on MS foisting it unfinished and rushed. Also most people are going to be VERY unhappy to discover it's free to start and subscription to keep. Dishonest marketing.


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## Venusian Broon

DPWright said:


> First impressions are good. I think its less 'clunky' that 8.1, certainly less clunky than windows 8 - runs faster and appears to be user friendly. I love the synchronisation it plans to have with the Xbox One but that is a bad thing I suppose as that is most definitely a distraction from my writing! Although I have had a couple of problems trying to play older games - possibly Direct X issues - however I have been assured that a patch is coming to the rescue....



I'm pretty sure it's a Direct X issue - as that the error message that kept coming up when I tried to run my old XP games.

However I doubt they will ever issue a patch for Rome: Total War to work on Win 10, one of my old school favourites. I do find it relaxing slaughtering thousands upon thousands of little digital men on dusty middle Eastern plains, dark Teutonic forests or well watered Mediterranean coastlines, and can't quite let go of it. 

There may some bright spark that figures out how to make it work however. I'll keep an eye out for that to happen before even contemplating returning to 10!


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## Ray McCarthy

Direct X has in the past been leveraged with new titles to force people to upgrade. Next year there may be new games that won't work on Win10 that doesn't have a subscription and a newer  automatic update of Direct X. There are no "new" windows after 10, only incremental updates and you'll need a MS Cloud subscription and decent broadband.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/01/windows_10_whats_in_it_for_microsoft_to_give_it_away_now/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/04/windows_10_start_menu_replacements_hot_cakes/

Eventually I'll keep a copy of XP on a machine never connected to Internet (last half decent version).


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## Venusian Broon

Ray McCarthy said:


> Direct X has in the past been leveraged with new titles to force people to upgrade. Next year there may be new games that won't work on Win10 that doesn't have a subscription and a newer  automatic update of Direct X. There are no "new" windows after 10, only incremental updates and you'll need a MS Cloud subscription and decent broadband.
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/01/windows_10_whats_in_it_for_microsoft_to_give_it_away_now/
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/04/windows_10_start_menu_replacements_hot_cakes/
> 
> Eventually I'll keep a copy of XP on a machine never connected to Internet (last half decent version).



Many/most games are subscription, downloading patches every day/week anyway, so they can adapt to the changing windows ecosystem. 

However yeah, I'm thinking that the Beast I'm using now has a good half-decade or so of life or more (if handled well) and if I absolutely need to get Win 10 then I'll get a Bigger Beast and run the two concurrently. So have a legacy PC and a messed up one 

Unfortunately my little Beast's hard drive died taking me beloved copy of XP with it


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## Ray McCarthy

I have disks / CD / DVD, I think of every MS OS from DOS 2.11 up to Server 2003, even 64 bit XP for Itanium!, XP Media Edition and XP Tablet Edition.
MS permits copies of the media. *You need your own serial number though*. P.M. me. I also have Word 2.0a and most versions up to Word or Offiice 2003 inc  Visio, Map point etc.  SBE servers, SQL, Visual Studios. Entirety of under the bed is old MS CDs and DVDs.

After NT3.51 MS lost the plot on OS development, it fell off a cliff after XP and Server 2003 was shipped:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista
It was immoral that Vista users didn't get Win7 free. Vista was unfinished mess and Win 7 is purely a bug fix of it.
Then with 8 they tried to force the Zune derived Win Phone GUI that replaced Windows CE on Desktop/laptop users, designed for an ARM tablet that would be a total failure (wrote of 1Billion) because ARM tablets can't sensibly run real Windows x86-64 applications. 

One Windows for everything is a DOOMED Approach.
Win 8 was so bad that Win 8.1 was rushed out. There is no Win 9 for a variety of reasons.
Win10 is the worst mess since Win ME and Vista. The intentions  are a mix of good and bad:
1) Google Android style Tracking (BAD, Google is Spyware)
2) Only Cloud Subscription model (BAD).
3) Fix mistakes of Sinofsky era and Win 8, (GOOD), but it's too disjointed and rushed to market to meet an artificial deadline. They think the updates will fix it. But the "you can't turn them off unless your subscription expires" updates will likely be poorly regression tested and cause grief for millions of users.

*This will be the worst product since 1981 of MS to be an early adopter with.* I've been using MS products since 1981 and often selling / supporting / programming etc them as the "day job".


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## Venusian Broon

cheers for the offer Ray, I am currently going through a bit of a life upheaval at the moment, so I am not looking to expand my digital empire, but in a few months time who knows...


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## Mark Ragland

I heard a guy on one of the local radio stations talking about it. At first, he loved it. But now, he has a problem in that it makes his PC crash often. So, he's going to stop using it for a while.

Has anyone else had this problem with crashing?


----------



## Venusian Broon

Mark Ragland said:


> I heard a guy on one of the local radio stations talking about it. At first, he loved it. But now, he has a problem in that it makes his PC crash often. So, he's going to stop using it for a while.
> 
> Has anyone else had this problem with crashing?



When I was running a bunch of programs I noticed a couple of times that everything just froze - even lost the mouse prompt. And could only get it working again by doing a reset. i.e. 'Have you switched it off then on again?'

Running the same set up in 8.1 with the same number of programs I never came across this problem. I suspect a great deal of fancy pants Win10 software is prancing about in the background causing havoc.


----------



## AnyaKimlin

I'm having the same constantly crashing problems with Windows 8.1


----------



## Ray McCarthy

AnyaKimlin said:


> I'm having the same constantly crashing problems with Windows 8.1


Upgrade to Win 7 or Linux.
Or see if a different graphics driver is available.
The last time I had crashing it was faulty RAM. Otherwise I'm using computer about 16hrs a day and never a crash. But it's not win 8.x
An OS that crashes on HW that's OK is junk.  Win8.1 is a quick fix of Win 8.0 GUI. It's a rushed poor quality version compared with Win7


----------



## AnyaKimlin

I'll upgrade when I have time - right now deadlines are taking priority.  I can't afford my husband to spend a weekend with my laptop.


----------



## HareBrain

I've never had this Win 7 PC crash, but then I don't place any great demands on it. But I think installing a new OS over the top of all the existing stuff is just asking for trouble. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" seems a good motto here.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

HareBrain said:


> I've never had this Win 7 PC crash, but then I don't place any great demands on it.


Yes. it seems a good fix of vista.


HareBrain said:


> installing a new OS over the top of all the existing stuff is just asking for trouble


Never ever been good idea for ANY OS.


HareBrain said:


> If it ain't broke, don't fix it


Indeed. I only upgrade a PC, phone, TV, Application, Operating system etc if it's BER.


----------



## Glitch

I had a problem after upgrading where I couldn't type. But changing the batteries in my keyboard resolved that issue 

My pc runs no faster or slower with Windows 10. The settings menu is quite sparse leaving the Windows 7 style control panel accessible for everything else.

The start menu is a joke. You can only have only level of folders that I can see. On Windows 7 my start menu was tidy and easy to find stuff, Windows 10 has undone that. For example, on Windows 10 I have a folder called Microsoft with 106 items in it. Search is only good if you remember what the program is called.

And to make it worse. Pin to start only works for items listed in the start menu. However it's available on the context menu for other things.


----------



## Kerrybuchanan

Hmm. That pretty much sums it up for me too, except that it has totally chewed up my Outlook which is now refusing to send or receive, even after I reinstalled it. I really hate webmail.

The start button is nothing of the sort - it's just another different way to display the apps they want you to use. Getting grumpier by the day.


----------



## Nick B

Instead of 'up'grading to win10 I'm seriously considering partitioning my pc with linux for general use and win7 simply for the small amount of gaming I do.
I get pretty angry about all the spyware, security problems and back doors that microsoft love to include. Even Apple made a deal with the NSA in 2012 to hand over user information without the need for a warrant.
To my mind, open source is the way to go now. Trusting anyone else just seems foolish.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

I've always installed PCs / Laptops with a separate partition for Data and NEVER save stuff in "My Documents" or similar. When installing if a program offers a choice for settings, I create a folder in the data partition.
I name the partitions Boot and Data


----------



## Venusian Broon

Kerrybuchanan said:


> Hmm. That pretty much sums it up for me too, except that it has totally chewed up my Outlook which is now refusing to send or receive, even after I reinstalled it. I really hate webmail.
> 
> The start button is nothing of the sort - it's just another different way to display the apps they want you to use. Getting grumpier by the day.



Ah! I may have an answer for you on that Kerry.

My main e-mail used to be TalkTalk and you used to be able to just connect up your Outlook with a bit of instruction to connect with the TalkTalk e-mail server and it would be delivered straight to that program.

However I couldn't send stuff from Win 8.1 from my TalkTalk 'account' (but could receive the mail. No one seemed to know why it only half worked - I tried for such a long time...) On Win 10 it seems they have totally abandoned any e-mail accounts that use POP (i.e. TalkTalk), as I did read that in an official Microsoft communication, so I couldn't get any M$ program to even access the TalkTalk e-mail server.

So either you convince your internet provider (I'm assuming that's the e-mail you are trying to access) to not use POP and use another method (Ray, I'm sure, will tell us the alternatives!), which is very unlikely!. Or you could use the Outlook.com e-mail that M$ are eager to get you to use (I just went with that option, because it was the easiest) or you get a third party software that will be able to read POP accounts and deliver it like your Outlook. On that matter I don't know any good 'outlooky' software as I am too lazy...


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Just install a PROPER email program like Thunderbird*.
The ONLY point ever to MS email Clients was corporate Exchange Server and Schedule/Calendar features. The Outlook Client has ALWAYS been a pain and vulnerable to viruses due to ActiveX, HTML, and remote content settings.
Note POP is used only to receive.
SMTP is used only to send.
Test by sending email to yourself!
SMTP is a separate server setting and must be the SMTP of your ISP. So I have over a dozen SMTP setup in my email program and depending whose Internet I'm using (BT, Virgin, UPC, Digiweb, Vodafone, Three etc) I change the default.
IMAP uses an email Client, but only to view a remote server, it's like Webmail without a browser.

If you use Web Mail or IMAP, then by default you have NO archive / local copy of what you send and receive!

(*On thunderbird I have MULTIPLE identities,  some accounts don't use the default SMTP and some use IMAP)

I'm sure Win 10 email "really" works for POP3 and SMTP but that they have put the settings somewhere silly**.
In ALL email clients the sending and receive settings are different places, except for IMAP.

(** At least one person I know is using Win10 on a tablet with POP3 and SMTP)


----------



## Venusian Broon

Ray McCarthy said:


> I'm sure Win 10 email "really" works for POP3 and SMTP but that they have put the settings somewhere silly**.
> In ALL email clients the sending and receive settings are different places, except for IMAP.
> 
> (** At least one person I know is using Win10 on a tablet with POP3 and SMTP)



Apparently not. This is for Windows 8 - http://blog.laptopmag.com/how-to-read-pop-mail-in-windows-8

And Microsoft have continued it and do not support pop3 in their own basic software for Win10 - as I said I read an official M$ page stating that - I did try my best and I do sort of know what I'm doing! 

I'd guess that Outlook 2013 could have a way of doing it, because you've paid a bit extra for the software - so perhaps Kerry you just need to dig around a lot or as Ray says get something like Thunderbird.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Thunderbird is free. Never crashes. Never been a problem.
Works on Windows and Linux
Always been better than MS Office or Windows Outlook client.

I did warn that Win10 is designed for MS Cloud. Idiots.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

*Data Slurper's Cesspit?*

Win 8.1 is purely a patch up of Win 8.0 as Win 8.0 is SO BAD compared to Win7 for keyboard, screen and mouse.
But Win 10?


> Given that so *little has fundamentally changed between Windows 8 and 10* – other than the new, amateurish and confusing UI – you could be forgiven for thinking that the whole point of the Windows 10 upgrade is *to install a keylogger. Maybe that is the whole point. *But hey, it’s free. And we don’t look gift horses in the mouth, right?
> 
> I think that Microsoft has badly misjudged its markets here. Particularly the enterprise market. One enterprise manager I spoke to this week, after the extent of the slurp became apparent, was simply stunned. Home folders are sent to Microsoft? It reverts default applications to whatever Microsoft chooses? This can’t be real.


Vista and Win 7 is really Windows NT 6.x
Win8, 8.1 and 10 are really NT 7.x., though on Win 10 it now reports as NT 10.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/0...al_high_ground_for_the_data_slurpers_cesspit/

They are trying to out do Google in Spyware.



> Microsoft has wasted six years since the release of Windows 7 – years when it could have been producing really nice consumer tools – in charging after Steve Sinofsky’s catastrophic strategic vision and then repairing the damage. At the end of it, I can’t store and manipulate photos videos or music any better in Windows (2015) than I could in Windows (2009). The CEO is obsessed with making my “experience” “smarter”, because of his weirdly adolescent cloud AI obsession. (Lonely children dream of robot friends – it seems SatNad does too.) But nothing about Cortana really makes the consumer IT “experience” smarter. Whereas decent photo library or music organisation or video making and sharing tools would. Cortana’s gain is Microsoft’s, not mine. But then SatNad's a cloud guy: maybe he doesn’t get it.



Microsoft has wasted 14 years since release of XP actually, because the 2001 to 2006 Vista development was mismanaged, wrong goals and a backward step.  It took THREE years to fix the bugs as Windows 7. Windows 7 was not a new OS, but simply a fixed Vista.

What Enterprise wanted was an updated XP. No surprise they left upgrading to the last three years and most of those even this year are Windows 7. No wonder Windows 10 is "free" to start with (though not if you want more than Home Edition!). The costs will be later, you'll need an MS Cloud subscription.

There is some time left to get a copy of Windows 7.


----------



## Kerrybuchanan

Ray McCarthy said:


> I did warn that Win10 is designed for MS Cloud. Idiots.



Who? Me and VB or Microsoft?



Ray McCarthy said:


> There is some time left to get a copy of Windows 7.



How?

Windows 8 coped fine with sending and receiving my GMail accounts (all 3 of them) in Outlook but with Windows 10 I first found I couldn't send attachments (although I could receive them), but it has deteriorated to the point that it is neither sending nor receiving any more. I do use POP for incoming and SMTP for outgoing, but I have a feeling GMail might provide other options too - I shall investigate when I get home and can get this laptop plugged into recharge.

I didn't realise at first that my emails weren't sending until a member of my writing group asked very politely where my work had got to. The answer was - my Outbox and no further. From there I should have been able to move the mail back to drafts to at least copy and paste the text, but it refused to respond to anything. I couldn't even delete (and by then there were a dozen of the little beggars sitting there putting their tongues out at me!).

Now I no longer receive anything and any mails I try to send just disappear into thin air. They don't even appear in the Outbox, never mind Sent or Drafts.  I have tried reinstalling Office, repairing my settings, deleting my accounts and setting up again, contacting MS Office support (useless). I really, really hate webmail.

Moving to Thunderbird and Windows 7 both sound very attractive, but I have no idea how to get Windows 7 without spending a lot of money and 2 of my GMail accounts are business emails, so changing those would be a right old nuisance: they are on all my websites and literature as well as a score or more of sites that have links for my emails. I guess I could set up a redirect, but what a pain. A few days ago, the whole thing was working seamlessly!

And while I'm on a roll, another gripe is the dratted Sky Broadband. We had a power cut through a faulty laptop charger (not mine) which tripped the whole system - house, stables, electric fences, horse walker, arena lights, etc. Since it was sorted our broadband has gone to snail pace and drops out all the time. I tried all tricks and dodges I know before phoning Sky (resetting, disconnecting every single device from network, changing channels on router, etc, etc). No joy. The lovely little Sky man just told me I was running too much off the one broadband connection. At the time I only had my laptop connected, nothing else, and I wasn't exactly streaming, just looking up the maintenance page for the router! He didn't believe me that everything had been running absolutely fine until 2 days before, even with all the gubbins attached. We had 3 x Netflix, 1 x X-box live, 1 x Sky TV, 5 x phones, 2 x ipads, CCTV remote viewing and various other stuff all running simultaneously with no problems until the power cut.

I've decided I'm going to go and live on a desert island somewhere with no technology to be seen.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Kerrybuchanan said:


> Microsoft?


Of course. Going backwards since 2003 apart from a small forward jiggle with Win 7



Kerrybuchanan said:


> Moving to Thunderbird and Windows 7 both sound very attractive, but I have no idea how to get Windows 7 without spending a lot of money and 2 of my GMail accounts are business emails


Thunderbird works with Gmail. I have Gmail accounts. I also autoforward mail to my gmail addresses to another account.
AFAIK, Thunderbird works ON any Windows version (maybe not Win2K any longer!), Mac OS and Linux.
https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/all/
Download British Version to automatically have correct spelling dictionary.
*English (British)* English (British) "Windows" - "Mac OS" - "Linux 32" - "Linux 64"

All your existing email (as long as you know your ISP SMTP and each account's User / Pass and POP3 or IMAP will work. Though Thunderbird has a stupid wizard now, but you CAN manually create accounts and edit ALL settings after an account is created (local mailbox account on your PC).

Win7 will be cheaper than Win 10 (Win 10 Pro is already £100 and not free to anyone). But don't bother with anywhere like PC world or any Retail. It's OEM. You can buy legitimate copies online.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Kerrybuchanan said:


> The lovely little Sky man just told me I was running too much off the one broadband connection.


Nonsense!


----------



## Ray McCarthy

First time ever no PCs pre-installed with new Windows version at launch.



			
				The Register said:
			
		

> In the week leading up to the launch of Windows 10 there were zero PCs pre-installed with the new operating system sat in a warehouse awaiting a new home. Not one.
> 
> For past releases of Microsoft OSs at least 20 per cent of computers at wholesalers came loaded with the software, but times have changed.


Though 14 Million people downloaded Win 10, most of these were upgrades "foisted" on users for "free". But if you had Professional Win7 you only get Home edition "free".
The existing installed base of Windows is about 2,300 Million, so the initial figure in the article is about 0.6% of users.
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2015/08/06/windows10_stock_distribution/


----------



## Nick B

Ebuyer usualy have windows 7 licences available as oem packs, last time I looked they were around £60. 
If you are lucky you can pick one up on ebay for 30. I did. Just watch out for scammers selling pirate copies or JUST the disc. Make sure it says disb, licence key and totaly unused.


----------



## Glitch

Ray McCarthy said:


> Though 14 Million people downloaded Win 10, most of these were upgrades "foisted" on users for "free". But if you had Professional Win7 you only get Home edition "free".



If you have Windows 7 Professional or Ultimate you get Windows 10 Pro. Windows 7 Starter, Home Basic or Home Premium get Windows 10 Home.

Taken from http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-faq


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Glitch said:


> If you have Windows 7 Professional or Ultimate you get Windows 10 Pro.


My mistake. Thanks. Sadly my 60 minutes expired before I could fix my error
Anyway, you MIGHT get downgraded on in between versions*. There is certainly no improvement in normal work, the email and privacy issues are crazy.
But then MS ditched Hyperterminal after XP (I use PuTTY now instead).

(*All the versions is crazy greed. Used to be only one version of NT, then they had Server and Workstation, then Workstation, Server and Enterprise and Small Business Editions. No justification at all for the crippled versions. Should be only Workstation and Server versions. Misuse of market share.)


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Quellist said:


> Just watch out for scammers selling pirate copies or JUST the disc. Make sure it says disk, licence key and totally unused.


Absolutely!


----------



## Ray McCarthy

I DID say (in many places using various identities) this would go badly. It will get worse. There will be an update that crashes maybe 10% or more of Win10 systems.



			
				El Reg said:
			
		

> Windows 7 PCs are being force fed a diet of Windows 10, breaking a promise made by Microsoft.
> The problem is affecting domain-attached Windows 7 PCs not signed up to Windows Server Update Services (WSUS) for patches and updates, but looking for a Microsoft update instead.
> The upshot is PCs, ranging from 10s to hundreds at a time, simultaneously chowing down on the 3GB-plus Windows 10 load, killing business networks.
> The problem began showing up on Monday with complaints beginning to notch up online.


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/07/windows_10_auto_injects_itself_into_windows_7/

Ve haf vays und means of making you take Vindows Zhen!
http://dilbert.com/strip/1997-01-15


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Though from 1995 seems apt.  3Gbyte isn't fun on Mobile (or most people's Capped Broadband xHowmany PCs)
Later Win10 won't be free, for people already installed.
http://dilbert.com/strip/1995-12-29


----------



## Ursa major

Vertigo said:


> However my biggest fear is not being able to turn off the automatic updates. I travel a fair bit and the last thing I need when travelling is for Windows to announce that I mustn't turn off my computer for the next hour as it's doing updates and if I do turn it off I'm liable to mess up the whole os. No Thank you!


Although I never liked automatic updates -- I want to choose when I am (or my computer is) going to be interrupted -- this feeling was reinforced when I bought a new PC -- an HP (Windows 7) All-in-1 -- and forgot to change the setting to the "let me know and I'll do it when I want" option (because all I was offered on setting up the system was 'Update' or 'Don't Update'). Not that long afterwards, in the middle of a big edit on my WiP, the computer restarted itself. My annoyance that my new computer was already misbehaving -- I'd bought it because my previous machine was freezing on a regular basis (although it works okay now, and I don't know why it repaired itself) -- turned to anger when, once the desktop had disappeared, the machine said it was x%** through updating itself (and so *I* shouldn't switch it off). The bl**dy thing didn't mind switching _my_ application off!


** - I'm not sure I've ever seen it get to more than 30% before the machine switches itself off, performing the other 70% of the process on restart.


----------



## HareBrain

My Win7 PC always updates and reboots overnight, when it's in sleep mode. I can't remember if I selected any particular setting for that, but it suits me.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Ursa major said:


> I'd bought it because my previous machine was freezing on a regular basis (although it works okay now, and I don't know why it repaired itself)


dodgy joint and the tin gradually reflowed?
Memory module seating?
Graphics driver change?


----------



## Ursa major

I simply stopped using the (Vista) laptop, and so didn't bother getting any more Windows updates or anti-virus (etc) updates. (In fact, I was never confident that the machine wouldn't freeze during an update, even a small one.) However, and a year or so later, I wanted something to test a new broadband installation elsewhere, and it was the only "working" laptop I had. (I wasn't going to move the all-in-one.)

So before I did anything, I downloaded all the updates (over 250Mb just for the virus definitions). To my amazement, everything worked fine and the machine didn't misbehave after that (including never freezing**). I only replaced it when I wanted a laptop with more oomph (4 rather than 2 cores, and at double the clock speed, with 12G of Ram rather than 2G).


** - Although odd things occasionally happened to the resolution of streamed football matches downloaded from BT Sport.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Ursa major said:


> everything worked fine and the machine didn't misbehave after that


Ah ... a driver was the problem or something in Kernel Mode.
I lost count of how many Vista installs I upgraded to XP or Win7


----------



## Vertigo

Ursa major said:


> Although I never liked automatic updates -- I want to choose when I am (or my computer is) going to be interrupted -- this feeling was reinforced when I bought a new PC -- an HP (Windows 7) All-in-1 -- and forgot to change the setting to the "let me know and I'll do it when I want" option (because all I was offered on setting up the system was 'Update' or 'Don't Update'). Not that long afterwards, in the middle of a big edit on my WiP, the computer restarted itself. My annoyance that my new computer was already misbehaving -- I'd bought it because my previous machine was freezing on a regular basis (although it works okay now, and I don't know why it repaired itself) -- turned to anger when, once the desktop had disappeared, the machine said it was x%** through updating itself (and so *I* shouldn't switch it off). The bl**dy thing didn't mind switching _my_ application off!
> 
> 
> ** - I'm not sure I've ever seen it get to more than 30% before the machine switches itself off, performing the other 70% of the process on restart.


Exactly!


----------



## purple_kathryn

I bought a kobo last year and my PC just would not recognise it.  I then started having problems with my ipod.  fortunately I have a laptop so I just shifted everything over to that.  I also bought a new usb flash drive to stick my mums pictures on which the pc wouldn't recognise.

Installed windows 10....we're back! So for that alone I'm happy


----------



## J Riff

My 'best' laptop is and HP that had an issue with the graphics chip lifting once it got hot. It starts up w/ black screen, unless you lean, and I mean hard, on the spot on the keyboard where the chip is beneath it on the motherboard. Then that stops working. Try the hairdryer... a couple starts then black screen agin.
 Its a huge job to dissemble and reattach the chip, and no guarantee that it will last once it gets hot again. It's very annoying that the RAM chips won't work in other laptops... it's odd becos they fit in the slots but just won't detect. Oh well.


----------



## J Riff

Yikes! Yesterdy a mean virus shut my WIN7 down, burnt to the ground. It renamed hundreds of files to a '.aaa' extension and started with pages of warnings etc. No fixing it, so I reinstalled after deleting a lot of stuff. Then, the new WIN7 still had some files that didn't belong! Never seen that before.
4 hours or so later I was back, but now Windows update is running and running... reinstall Skype and ten other progs...
I never ever clik on stuff in eMail, but I blanked and thought I was in Skype, clicked on something and - nothing happened. A sure sign that something has happened, been installed silently.
 Now, I have  encrypted folder that can't be accessed. It's named 2659c3aetc.etc. and apparently a prog called ShadowExplorer will export said folder and make eveything safe again. This is new here. ClikClikCik..... **!&!&


----------



## Parson

*J Riff* I would have thought that you would have had to reformat the disk in such a situation. Just deleting some files would seem likely to leave you with the (never to be cursed enough) virus biding it's time.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

I've removed viruses, trojan, malware etc on other people's computers without re-install or reformat. But it involves specialist use of script on www.silentrunners.org to edit registry after booting in safe mode and killing evil processes with gmer (root kit remover) or taskmanager.
A re-install (not upgrade) from CD/DVD boot may remove malware as it removes all the registry entry points.


----------



## psikeyhackr

*Latest Windows upgrade exposes an Achilles heel*

http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com...aid=3007671&cloc=joongangdaily|home|newslist1

LOL

psik


----------



## Ray McCarthy

> A cumbersome authentication system known as ActiveX used by government agencies and financial companies in Korea - and few other places around the world.


A system developed by MS which was ONLY for local programs, it used COM to communicate between applications. Then they did TWO stupidities:
1) Extended to work over network via DCOM (DCOM is evil)
2) Put it in their web browser.

It should only have ever be used within an Application.

Mitigation:
There should be TWO browsers on any PC that needs  ActiveX , one blocked from Internet and the other with no ActiveX in it.

It's totally trivial to take over a PC via Active X, which is why no one should be using it on actual Internet and companies should have migrated from it years ago.
The temporary solution is to run XP or Windows 98 or Windows 2000 in a virtual machine on Win7, Win 8.x or Linux (no company should be deploying Win 10 at all for a year, except for testing) with the IE 6.0 browser for Active X and on a separate virtual LAN on the local network that can connect to Internet.

*This is NOT a Windows 10 issue. This is an issue 20 years old!*
Active X 1996   Just about acceptible for Local Programs. EVIL on a Local Network (LAN), Crass stupidity on Internet!


> Countries like South Korea have started to remove this technology from their public websites.
> Microsoft Edge, the replacement for Internet Explorer, dropped ActiveX support, marking the end of the technology.




IE 6.0 Browser 2001 No-one should be using this EVER. It's BROKEN!


> This version of Internet Explorer has been widely criticized for its security issues and lack of support for modern web standards, making frequent appearances in "worst tech products of all time" lists, with _PC World_ labeling it "the least secure software on the planet."


No MS browser using Active X should ever be used on the Internet. The reason Chrome (Google Spyware), Safari, Firefox etc have a tiny share in Korea is because of Institutions STUPIDLY using EVIL MS Browser extensions. No-one else ever supported them.
*The BEST thing about Windows 10 will be if it forces Companies, Institutions and Governments to change their Websites to use proper safe standards instead of this broken garbage (ALL Microsoft specific Browser extensions) that MS themselves have correctly ditched.*

MS should have patched IE6 in 2002 and made it that Active X only worked on LAN.
It should have been totally scrapped except INSIDE a program by Service pack 2 or 3 of XP. Named Pipes are a better and secure way for inter program communication and on Windows long before Active X
Com is nearly as evil as DCOM. Named Pipes is the proper way, Except they could only be created on NT (1993 and later). Unfortunately Win95/Win95 was little more than Win3.1 / WFWG with the Win32S integrated and could only connect to a Named Pipe, it couldn't create one. That's what should have been fixed in Win95b not adding evil Active X to NT4.0


----------



## J Riff

Well, I clean installed Win7... I thought that erased everything. Normally I would format but it didn't ask to... anyway what was left was some .htm files and a big folder that was undeletable. I tried various unlock/delete programs, no luck, then I tried starting Mini-XP from the Hirens boot disc. Then it deleted, poof. No problems since, so I guess dat bug is squished. But now, windows update runs and runs and doesn't find any updates. What next?


----------



## Ray McCarthy

commentard on El Reg about Win 10 said:
			
		

> Who doesn't, if even only occasionally, play Solitaire?
> So how are the happy upgraders going to react when they discover that they have to visit the Windows Store and download and install it? And how happy are they likely to be, when they discover that “free” means “ad-supported?” Finally, how happy are they likely to be, when they discover that, to get rid of the ads, they have to subscribe to the ad-free version, at a cost of $1.95 per month or $9.95 per year?
> Then there is the add-on DVD player, free for now, and $14.95 later, and even if the PC has a Blue Ray drive, the DVD player will only play standard DVDs.



Actually it depends which version of Win7 or Win 8.x you had before and if you had Solitare or DVD player before. Most Win 8.x don't have either. Another reason to stick with 7

Stats say that Win10 percentage is almost entirely from Win7  & Win8.x users, XP share gone up slightly and over all MS share gone down slightly, Vista down very slightly (why anyone using it?).


----------



## KyleAW

Also as an addition to the above, Solitare can be played on a multitude of free websites so it isn't that big a deal you can't get it on the PC directly.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

KyleAW said:


> Solitare can be played on a multitude of free websites


Madness.  Solitaire in the Cloud.
I never play any of those things any more, but I have loads, they all date back from Win 3.1 era and still work!


----------



## Venusian Broon

Ray McCarthy said:


> Madness.  Solitaire in the Cloud.
> I never play any of those things any more, but I have loads, they all date back from Win 3.1 era and still work!


What's wrong with a pack of cards?


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Venusian Broon said:


> What's wrong with a pack of cards?


I never understood Scrabble or Monopoly or Risk on a Screen either (I've tried Scrabble and Risk). For me Cards on Screen was a novelty for a couple of years over twenty years ago. There is Internet now when I have nothing to do and want to waste time.

Some reasons people might want PC solitare

no space left on desk
can hide it when boss comes
No Internet connection to view cats or porn


----------



## psikeyhackr

Ray McCarthy said:


> Madness.  Solitaire in the Cloud.
> I never play any of those things any more, but I have loads, they all date back from Win 3.1 era and still work!



If you shoot electrons around the planet to play solitaire then you don't feel so alone.

All of those routers need something to do anyway.

psik


----------



## psikeyhackr

Someone can do a PhD thesis on the probability of winning in the cloud versus locally.

psik


----------



## Venusian Broon

I have to admit that Minecraft has replaced solitaire as my 'mindless, pointless, need to waste 30 minutes on the PC' sort of thing. It's relaxing chewing through rocks and being creative, building all sorts. (And I notice that Windows 10 had a version of Minecraft bundled in it for free.)


----------



## KyleAW

Minecraft is king.

So much time spent with friends building cool things !
So much time watching creepers blow up all my stuff


----------



## Nick B

I don't 'get' minecraft, it looks like it's from 1989. Why would anyone make it look like that on purpose? I mean, if it looked like Skyrim, I'd have a go...


----------



## Venusian Broon

Quellist said:


> I don't 'get' minecraft, it looks like it's from 1989. Why would anyone make it look like that on purpose? I mean, if it looked like Skyrim, I'd have a go...


 Don't knock it till you've tried it 

Reminds me a tad of Doom graphic-wise, in a way, but really it's all about the game play and mechanics rather than the graphics. I love Skyrim too, it looks beautiful, but Minecraft is an infinite world that you can do anything that takes your fancy. Don't like the mountain next to your base, knock it down and turn it into something else, build an automatic mob drop machine (took me three goes, but eventually I got one to work, yes!), recreate something wonderful*, go and explore for ever and never see the same thing twice. It's a million times more creative than the rigid quest lines of (the still excellent) Skyrim. Loads of rules and things to find, then optimise (has that in common with Eve Online!) 

------------------------------------------------------

* I thought once that I'd have a go at recreating something from my novels in Minecraft...but that really is just procrastination squared . It was just a fleeting thought, better to actually write my novels first...


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Quellist said:


> Why would anyone make it look like that on purpose?


You prefer Plasticine to Lego too?


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Venusian Broon said:


> Windows 10 had a version of Minecraft bundled in it for free


It was supposed to be Minesweeper, but the project leader for that part was playing with his/her smartphone in the meeting and misheard. (I'm only joking, I think!)

A Excel 97  has a sort of Flight sim built in. Go figure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Easter_eggs_in_Microsoft_products
http://www.eeggs.com/items/29841.html
https://gyorgybalassy.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/hidden-flight-simulator-in-windows-8/


----------



## Mark Ragland

Don't care too much for Solitaire or Minecraft, but I will admit I'm addicted to Free Cell.


----------



## TØny Hine

I note there's a version of Microsoft Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

TØny Hine said:


> Microsoft Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi


Only for Model 2 and no Windows Desktop. You need a Windows 10 laptop/desktop to develop for it.

A totally pointless OS for such a barebones device that would suited running  VXworks or QNX if not using the recommended Linux Distro.  RiscOS works OK on Pi 1 (A or B) or 2 as do various Linux distros inc customised Rasparian, with GUI if wanted.
An attempt to bully in to class room for something that should be nothing to do with Windows. There is too much basic MS Office etc masquerading as IT in schools already.
Using any of the Linux Distros adapted for Pi (any version) you can write Scratch or Python programs (default install) with only adding HDMI TV , keyboard and mouse. The GPIO pins can be read/controlled by Python.

Note that even MS ARM version of Surface is "dead", the only current Surface is x86. The Pi is ARM, (basically a phone chip on a break out board without the RF part) so can only run ARM  code. But can't run Metro/Modern UI apps even for Windows Phone 10 (ARM), because this is Windows 10 Embedded Edition for ARM. MS has TINY market penetration for Embedded Editions outside of POS/Banking, were even there often a full version of Windows is used.


----------



## J Riff

Good lord Holmes.... 192 windows updates? Yup. AND Java and reinstalls of better software... takes a day or two. Better burn an image this time. Or at least remember to turn on system restore.
 Hotmail is becoming disturbing... Im phasing it out. Every time you log out it's slow, then you are sent to a news page, and usually I cant avoid seeing 3-4 headlines. Plot to kill Queen, man kills daughter, dogs tortured by monkeys, infants in steamroller accident.... real violent rubbish, every single time you clik out of hortmail. Enough already. Have fun w/ Win10 I'm not going near it.


----------



## HareBrain

I'm using Win 7 Home, and since before the launch of Win 10 there's been a new Windows icon on the taskbar.

For a while it did nothing, except induce in me a fear of letting my cursor go anywhere near it.

Then, for the past few days, when I've woken the PC from sleep, a pop-up box appears offering me the free upgrade, and I've just closed the box, annoyed that there's no "no thanks now sod off" option.

This morning, there was no "X" to close the box!

It turned out it was still there, just invisible. But I bet that was a deliberate attempt to encourage some people who might be resistant.

****ers.


----------



## Kerrybuchanan

I'd say stick to Windows 7!


----------



## thaddeus6th

I've had that box appear once.

I only upgraded from XP about a year ago (which is why I now use OpenOffice rather than Microsoft Word).


----------



## psikeyhackr

HareBrain said:


> I'm using Win 7 Home, and since before the launch of Win 10 there's been a new Windows icon on the taskbar.
> 
> For a while it did nothing, except induce in me a fear of letting my cursor go anywhere near it.



Macroscam acts like your computer is their property just because you have their OS.

I am in the process of installing 100 Dell notebooks purchased off lease right now.  I am going through Windows 7 update Hell.

psik


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Win 10 growth dramatically slowed to 30% per week, now almost all installs are switches from Win8.x, almost no Win7 or XP changes. MS overall share slowly dropping. Win 10 still under 5%.


psikeyhackr said:


> installing 100 Dell notebooks  ... going through Windows 7 update Hell.


I remember those days ... teams installing up to 450 fully locked down NT4.0 workstations, then SMS to add all the Apps ...

"Don't forget the regional settings first" was the mantra those days.

Passes Tea & Sympathy.


----------



## AnyaKimlin

Hubby has changed his mind since trying to put it on my laptop


----------



## J Riff

What you see a lot of is 'This copy of Windows is not genuine' boxes on Win7 machines. You can make it go away for a few months, a few times, by using a re-arm command, but then it just sits there forever and you have to clik past 2 warnings at startup.
of course, nobody here would ever use a bootleg copy of Widnows.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

J Riff said:


> 'This copy of Windows is not genuine'


Genuine installs do that if you replace  upgrade too many bits*. I've had to once phone MS at 2am, but the licence support line is open 24 x7. They seem pretty relaxed about handing out new keys actually.


[* the ONLY time I've seen it on XP / Vista / Win 7 is due to upgrades or replace failed HDD.]


----------



## psikeyhackr

J Riff said:


> What you see a lot of is 'This copy of Windows is not genuine' boxes on Win7 machines.



I got that half a dozen times out of my 100 Windows 7 installs of off lease machines.  It has gone away after as many as 3 activation attempts and told me it was genuine.  They should just go to Linux.

psik


----------



## Vertigo

psikeyhackr said:


> Macroscam acts like your computer is their property just because you have their OS.


In all fairness they are better than Apple on that score. On iPads and iPhones it's virtually impossible to put anything on them without going through apple software such as iTunes. It's like Apple don't trust you to touch their precious computer. And as for connecting any kind of external storage; heaven forbid you might expose their precious os to something not approved by Apple.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Vertigo said:


> On iPads and iPhones it's virtually impossible to put anything on them without going through apple software such as iTunes.


They will make the Mac like that (more profit), or actually ditch Mac OS X and have a Mac OS 11 that is walled like iOS.
They have removed "Computer" from their name and no longer make a Mac server (though there is still a maintained Server version of OS X).
Microsoft BEFORE Windows 10 was MUCH better than Oracle, Google (Chrome Book/OS, Android, Chrome Browser) or Apple in being consumer friendly and suited to Business (SOHO to Corporate / Enterprise). With Ribbon UI and everything after XP / Server 2003 they gradually got worse. Vista was really bad. Windows 7 was fix of it. Windows 8.x totally lost the plot due to chasing after Andriod/iOS tablet/phone market (and losing them over $12 Billion!). Win10 is  mess, a mix of Win8 and Win 7 and they are pushing the "Cloud" now. They have totally lost the plot under Balmer and Sinofsky, but now though trying to patch that they have fixated on Cloud instead.


----------



## HanaBi

10 is a massive improvement over the 8 family, but I had to make sure I switched off all those privacy & bandwidth-stealing features; never bothered with Express setup, and disabled Edge from every angle possible!

apart from that, I quite like 10 for the most part. Just don't trust Microsoft, wit their micromanagement of what I want to do with their new OS


----------



## Ray McCarthy

HanaBi said:


> 10 is a massive improvement over the 8 family


Since 8 was the WORST version since 1992, that's saying something? ME and Vista for all the bugs etc could be got working properly and Win7 was the bug fix of Vista ...

Win 8 was a ghastly mess unless you had an x86-64 Surface Tablet (Not RT). They had to rush out free upgrade to 8.0 as 8.1 it was so broken on a regular PC.

No wonder almost all Win10 growth is now Win 8.x, not Win7 or XP or new sales!


----------



## Venusian Broon

Ray McCarthy said:


> No wonder almost all Win10 growth is now Win 8.x, not Win7 or XP or new sales!



Except me who went back to 8.1 because I preferred it. But then I like being different.


----------



## HanaBi

Ray McCarthy said:


> Since 8 was the WORST version since 1992, that's saying something? ME and Vista for all the bugs etc could be got working properly and Win7 was the bug fix of Vista ...
> 
> Win 8 was a ghastly mess unless you had an x86-64 Surface Tablet (Not RT). They had to rush out free upgrade to 8.0 as 8.1 it was so broken on a regular PC.
> 
> No wonder almost all Win10 growth is now Win 8.x, not Win7 or XP or new sales!



Microsoft really dropped the ball with W8. I simply can't believe they had so many positives coming out of their beta-testing that they assumed the general public would be able to deal with a completely new gui interface, without a Start button, and push people into buying touch-screens in order to make the product work!

The very name "8.1" feels like an admission of fault as they hastily bolted on the Start Button. But it was all rather too late, and the need to bury the whole "8" project became a face-saving priority, to make way for 10 - which still isn't perfect, but is perhaps how "8" should have looked like had MS got off their high-horse and listened to its broad customer base.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Venusian Broon said:


> Except me who went back to 8.1 because I preferred it.


The  privacy &  pushing cloud down your throat is worse. If you have got used to Win 8.1 or added the 3rd party GUI fixes there is no reason to change. It's not really an upgrade and most people are changing because it's a free automatic upgrade.

I'd recommend people switch back.

The MS Beta testers are unrepresentative of real users which are in these main categories

Games
Home use
home/small business office
Schools

Business with no internal IT support
Business with own IT support
Government

Embedded / Point of Sale / Cash machines etc
Win 95 / 98 / ME was focused only on 1 & 2
NT from 1993 to 1996 was 6,7 & 8
From 1996 they gradually "broke" NT family, and with XP (NT 5.1) covered 1 to 8 for first time.
Vista focused on 1 & 2, the Win ME version of NT, (NT.6.0). Win 7 (NT6.1) fixed it to make it more like XP.
Win 8.0 focused purely on tablets! Something alien to MS (they did have a Tablet Edition first in 2002 approx) except in niche markets.  Win 8.1 patched it for regular computers.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

HanaBi said:


> nd the need to bury the whole "8" project became a face-saving priority, to make way for 10 - which still isn't perfect,


Win 10 is too rushed and too much copying Google's privacy slurp / cloud.
They needed to instead bring out a Classic Edition based on XP & Win 7, after all over 20% PC probably still have XP (not all are reported / connected to Internet). 

To do Win 10 properly would have taken another two years. It's an inconsistent mess and the default settings may be illegal as defaults in EU and many other Countries (Serious privacy issues) as in reality Android might be. I only  enable data at all on my smart phone for tests, not even on wiFi (I use camera, media player, jotter, FM Radio apps, nothing that uses Internet). If I wanted to use an Android device on Internet, I'd get one without google licence (Android is free) thus no Playstore and no location reporting to Google, no apps that want excessive permissions.


----------



## HanaBi

Ray McCarthy said:


> and the default settings may be illegal as defaults in EU and many other Countries (Serious privacy issues) as in reality Android might be. I only  enable data at all on my smart phone for tests, not even on wiFi (I use camera, media player, jotter, FM Radio apps, nothing that uses Internet). If I wanted to use an Android device on Internet, I'd get one without google licence (Android is free) thus no Playstore and no location reporting to Google, no apps that want excessive permissions.



Yes, I did wonder about how Edge is the de-facto browser on W10. I always thought - after some old EU ruling - that Microsoft were in the wrong for only providing its legacy IE with new releases of Windows, back in the day! So how have they got round this with the release of Edge/10?  Shouldn't they be offering the same browser choices as a default rather than forcing people to use Edge?


----------



## Ray McCarthy

If you select custom on an upgrade install, then you can keep current Win7 / Win 8 choices. Otherwise MS puts all their privacy slurping choices and Edge. You then  have to later change the default.

So, not they have NOT got round the ruling, they are just ignoring it and the default key logging, web sites visited, local searches etc data *being sent by default* to MS is probably illegal.  
Ditch Cortana!

See
http://winaero.com/blog/how-to-disable-telemetry-and-data-collection-in-windows-10/


----------



## ralphkern

Well, thus far I've been impressed. My computer is running a lot faster (it had been grinding to a halt). The apps are all logically laid out, familiar enough that nothing is lost, new enough that it's like a breath of fresh air.  The upgrade itself was pain free.

I haven't had to dig around for passwords to access email account, other log on reliant stuff - They've all been brought across.

Most importantly, All my work files are intact, the thing I was most nervous about (although I had backed up to USB and emailed myself)

As an end user who doesn't want or need advanced features nor do I particularly care about the issues raised by the nay sayers... I give a  thumbs up.


----------



## Bodhi

Upgrade went well from 8.1.
Only one freeze in Open Office.
Much better than 8.x; it actually is decently nice instead of bearable.


----------



## HanaBi

works very well on my 3 VMs, that used to have XP, 8 and 8.1 installed!

Still won't be using Edge on any of them, but am impressed with speed and performance thus far; and no compatibility issues with existing software either.


----------



## J Riff

There's a lot of settings in Windows that never get touched, like advanced internet options etc. - that I wonder about sometimes. And services. Etc. Right now, Java wants to update, and I don't know whether it's a worthwhile clik, because everything seems to be working right now.


----------



## Bodhi

If it's worth anything, I've found it simplest just to update, update, update. It's how things are designed now. You used to have to find out how to update yourself. Now the computer just bugs you.


----------



## Vertigo

That's all well and good but when you have a laptop and you're travelling a lot you frequently need to shut your computer down and get going in a hurry and then you get that message that it's going to spend the next 30 minutes doing updates and you mustn't switch it off.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Bodhi said:


> I've found it simplest just to update, update, update.


Then some day it will "brick"
Also you will be needing to catch train/plane etc.
Either way Win10 is fail now and a disaster in the making.


----------



## J Riff

Well, my question is, should I update Java on Win7, just because it wants to?


----------



## Lenny

J Riff said:


> Well, my question is, should I update Java on Win7, just because it wants to?



Unless I'm missing a joke (skimmed through the thread, a little else), I'm going to channel my inner Ray () and tell you to get rid of it. Unless you're a Java dev, or use desktop programs that need the runtime, of course. Heaven forbid you need it for the browser, because Java on the web is an atrocity, from a development standpoint, a security standpoint, and a user experience standpoint, and should be met with fire and extreme prejudice at every opportunity.

---

I finally upgraded over the weekend, and I'm a happy bunny! Got all my Windows 7 updates in over the last month (which turned my pristine, never-updated-since-launch-day copy into a crawling wreck), but didn't get my new hardware until the weekend.

Loving that the UI is more 7 than 8/8.1
Loving the smaller icons on the taskbar (nearly had my Win7 one filled!).
Loving the stupendously quick startup.
Loving the new start menu.

Somewhat amused by the duplication of settings, and the parallel existence of the original control panel and its settings (all in their original attire) alongside the new Windows 10 settings panel and options (in the new Windows 10 attire).

Indifferent about the weird new icons.

My only complaint is that nVidia has put out the worst graphics drivers in the history of mankind (and apparently has been doing for at least a year), which leads to system crashes if I try and do anything that makes my graphics card work for its keep. Though in a weird way I'm enjoying it - my rig feels like _my rig_ again, rather than some mass-produced cubicle toy that just chugs along. I haven't had to troubleshoot for years!

And I've only made fatal errors in judgement that required me to wipe everything and start again twice since Sunday.


----------



## J Riff

I turned it off, back on and off a few times. Seems fine when off. Meanwhile, youTube is acting up. I can't paste anything into it. It works fine here, and elsewhere, but YoTub has decided to be goofy and wreck formatting as well. I thot it mite be a 'java' thing but apparently not. Oh well.


----------



## K. Riehl

I tried 10 and reverted back to 7 on my 2 yr old Lenovo laptop after:

1)Mousepad stopped working. Checked with IBM, they have not written the drivers yet for WIN 10
2)Intermittent black screens coming up in the middle of random program usage lasting up to 2 minutes.
3) Cyclical dropouts for the key board. ex...Typing this sentence would drop 2-3 letters every other word. 
4) Highlighted items would drop out and not allow entry/editing. Filling out a form, click on box, turns grey no entry allowed, click 2-3 time more to get it accept data entry.

After reverting to 7 all problems cleared up and I am back to a stable platform. It will be a long, long time before I will try 10 again.


----------



## Vince W

I've put 10 on an old laptop and it works only okay. Crashes and halts a lot.

I tried putting it on a desktop and it wouldn't install at all. Typical.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Vince W said:


> works only okay. Crashes and halts a lot.


I'd describe all of my computers as "only okay" and I can't remember the last time anything crashed. 

Puzzled how "Crashes and halts a lot" can be described as "works only okay" rather than "doesn't really work"


----------



## Vince W

Ray McCarthy said:


> I'd describe all of my computers as "only okay" and I can't remember the last time anything crashed.
> 
> Puzzled how "Crashes and halts a lot" can be described as "works only okay" rather than "doesn't really work"



10 is very new so I'm being generous. I'll keep it a while and probably switch it back to Linux.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

MS don't pay me to test their software, so I don't any more.  On my old XP laptop I just shoehorned a Mini-IDE to SATA adaptor into the HDD Media Bay adapator and swapped 40G IDE for a 250G SATA. I'll put Linux Mint (Mate desktop) on 60G of that so I can dual boot it. Copying a 30G backup from USB HDD onto the the remaining 190G space. £0.99 for the adaptor inc postage from China! No SATA driver needed either.

Successfully moved 4G of email from Thunderbird on XP to Thunderbird on a different laptop running Linux Mint.


----------



## The Bluestocking

alchemist said:


> Think I'll just stick with 8.1 for now. Thanks folks!



Same here. People keep moaning about 8 and 8.1. I think I'm on 8 and it's working just fine for me. Don't see what the fuss is all about. It's missing the "Start" button at the bottom where previous Windows versions put it but the shop I bought my laptop from set it up so I have easy access to everything including My Computer, shutting down the laptop etc.

As for Windows 10 - my brother upgraded to Windows 10 and his webcam will not work anymore. He's trying to change back to Windows 7.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

The Bluestocking said:


> It's missing the "Start" button at the bottom


There is a free menu utility you can get. 
There is an issue that 8.1 is really only designed with tablets in mind, but free 3rd party tools and utilities fix it.


----------



## The Bluestocking

Ray McCarthy said:


> There is a free menu utility you can get.
> There is an issue that 8.1 is really only designed with tablets in mind, but free 3rd party tools and utilities fix it.



Funnily enough, I don't miss the "Start" button anymore. I'm so used to touchscreen now...


----------



## Parson

I'm a dinosaur when it comes to computers. I use the arrow keys on the 10 key pad. I prefer a mouse to a touch pad. But after just purchasing my first machine with a touch screen I believe that I prefer the touch screen to the idiotic touch pad which is always moving my cursor where I don't and especially when I don't want it to move.


Windows 10 has the most aggravating feature on my 2 copies of 8.1. I keep getting offered free upgrades. Grrrr!


----------



## Ursa major

Parson said:


> I prefer the touch screen to the idiotic touch pad which is always moving my cursor where I don't and especially when I don't want it to move.


I agree, but it's only the lesser of two evils, as it can be very annoying when working with the computer while trying to read an A4 (or letter-size) document in portrait** orientation, as the top of the paper can, and often does, move the contents of the screen all over the place.

As for the touch pad, I've found that some are so sensitive, they move the cursor when I type using the laptop's keyboard; which is why I always, if I can, use a separate keyboard, not the built-in one, solely to keep my hands and wrists away from the touch pad.


** - Or even landscape: the only PC (as opposed to tablet) I use is and all-in-one (basically the computer's innards are built in to the display screen enclosure), so I can keep a decent distance between the screen and the keyboard. Unfortunately, it still leaves (pun intended) less than 12" between the screen and the top of the keyboard. (Oh, and my multifocal glasses mean that it is far easier to have the paper document in front of me rather than to one side.)


----------



## Mark Ragland

From what I'm hearing here, I think I'll stick to Vista.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Ursa major said:


> As for the touch pad, I've found that some are so sensitive,


I always set them up in Windows or Linux to disable completely if a mouse is plugged in. Also on Linux Mate desktop you can disable touch pad only while typing.
Why has no laptop keyboard (or cover keyboard) got a scroll wheel and / or middle button?


----------



## Vertigo

With everything being written for smart phones and tablets now, even the right mouse button seems (rather annoyingly) to be on it's way out.


----------



## Parson

Ray McCarthy said:


> I always set them up in Windows or Linux to disable completely if a mouse is plugged in. Also on Linux Mate desktop you can disable touch pad only while typing.



Ray can you tell me how to do this in a way that a near computing Neanderthal like myself can understand? I have the commands for my touch pad turned off on my HP, but the cursor can still move. It doesn't often, either because I've gotten better at typing with my palms in the air, or because the design put the pad in a bit of concave situation. But on the new Acer I just got at home, I'll bet I move my cursor unintentionally half a dozen times in 100 words, if I take my hands off the keyboard for some reason.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Control Panel Mouse
Or disable the device in Device Manager
Some BIOS Setup (del or F2 before windows boots) have an auto disable mode if PS/2 or USB mouse detected.


----------



## Glitch

Ray McCarthy said:


> There is an issue that 8.1 is really only designed with tablets in mind



I used to tell people that until someone asked me to set up a Windows 8.1 tablet for them. I soon realised it didn't work properly on a tablet either!


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Glitch said:


> I soon realised it didn't work properly on a tablet either!


I didn't say how successfully. MS lost a Billion  US Dollars on the first release of Surface Tablets.


----------



## Parson

*Ray, *---- Works like a charm!! Thanks so much.



Ray McCarthy said:


> Control Panel Mouse
> Or disable the device in Device Manager
> Some BIOS Setup (del or F2 before windows boots) have an auto disable mode if PS/2 or USB mouse detected.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Parson said:


> Works like a charm


Leviticus has possibly a prohibition on using charms?


----------



## Parson

No, but there is a prohibition on using witchcraft!


----------



## Ray McCarthy

So tame daemons are ok, they aren't Witches. That lets UNIX and Linux off the hook as long as you don't worship it. So charms that don't involve witchcraft are OK?  But probably their conception of what constituted Witchcraft is different from mediaeval times or today.


----------



## Parson

I'm sure that our Medieval forebears would consider the whole idea of computing to be a Faustian deal with the devil. ---- On some consideration, I think that might not be far wrong.


----------



## Ursa major

It's certainly true that some of our smartphones/tablets/PCs are far too... er... familiar, particularly those being possessed by spirits such as Siri and Cortana....


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Parson said:


> computing to be a Faustian deal with the devil


Not computing per-se, but Google owned services, as they *only* exist to exploit us  (Google+, Translate, Books, Scholar, Chrome Browser, Chrome OS, Android, PlayStore, Maps, YouTube, Search, Docs, Google's cloud, gmail, google hosted fonts, javascript/ajax/apis etc etc)

"Do no evil"? Ha. What sort of company needs that as a motto.



Ursa major said:


> Cortana....


Fully exorcising that from Win10 desktop isn't simple. "She" is inclined to just hide rather than be truly un-installed.


----------



## J Riff

Meanwhile - good old XP .... is... oop it doesn't work on youTube anymore. And IE8 will not update to a newer browser.
So, this particular laptop must go to WIN7, tonight. Also, I get the 'security certificate' error for every page, and turning it off in internet options does nothing.
 So much for surfing on XP.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Use Firefox and No Script. IE is nasty anyway... But I am keeping XP installed, just not connecting it to Internet.


----------



## Mark Ragland

Ray McCarthy said:


> Use Firefox and No Script. IE is nasty anyway... But I am keeping XP installed, just not connecting it to Internet.



IE is a joke, IMO. I've used FF for years.


----------



## J Riff

Yes, but there's always issues if bloody IE isn't installed at least. I'm just now fighting with a fresh win7 install. Kept rejecting certificates, couldn't fix it. Finally I reset the date/time and Duh! All better. Now Adobe won't update./ Windows update not responding. About 75 updates to install but NO.
I can't even imagine the horror of Win8 or 10.


----------



## Dave

This may have been covered but I don't want to read 8 pages about how bad Windows installing can be. 

Someone has told me that the upgrade from 7 to 10 is currently free, but then after an unspecified, limited period, they will withdraw any support for 7 and charge to upgrade to 10. Any truth in that? 

I have a PC with 7 that runs fine, no problems. (I have laptops and other things with 8.1 that are okay, better than Vista, and much better than 8.0.) I don't want to upgrade anything to 10 until all the problems are ironed out but if they blackmail in this way, I don't want to be left with an unsupported 7 either.


----------



## willwallace

I'm pretty sure W7 is supported through 2020, so you should be good to go.  The free upgrade to W10 is available until July 2016, so you have plenty of time to upgrade later.  You can always get your copy reserved, just don't download and install it.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

willwallace said:


> You can always get your copy reserved, just don't download and install it.


No, don't reserve it.
MS is now forcing Win 10 downloads.

Also they are /have backported much of the Win10 spying as mandatory silent updates to Win7 and Win8.x under near anonymous security upgrades.

Future is looking bleak for windows. After promoting and supporting MS products for over 25 years I'm typing this on Linux Mint (Mate Desktop). Keeping one laptop with XP and not using it for email or general Web use.



Dave said:


> charge to upgrade to 10


Win 10 may ALWAYS be free to install. It's clear MS is moving to a Cloud & Subscription model like Adobe.

EVERYONE that got "free" W10 will be paying ... the first trip from the pusher is free. Stick with w7

I have one laptop used with test gear (not used Internet) with win 2000. I have a PC for programming motorola radios and satellite boxs with DOS and Win98.

In reality, a sensibly used XP on the Internet via firewall/router  is actually safer today than Win 10 used by someone clueless. Support only means much to big companies. The majority of people don't properly keep supported stuff up to date.


----------



## J Riff

I like Linux Mint 13. I have a bunch of Linuxes around somewhere, it may be time to test them out again.
I tried to stay w/ XP but it glitches like crazy now.


----------



## Brian G Turner

Just had a pop-up ask me if I wanted to upgrade to Windows 10. The options were:

Upgrade Now
Upgrade Later

I clicked for "Later" (ie, never) - but the bloody thing then tried to start the Windows 10 download! Luckily I was able to cancel this in the next pop-up, which provided a direct link to my Download settings - so I clicked through "Optional downloads", saw Windows 10 was checked, and then unchecked it.

Cheeky Microsoft!


----------



## thaddeus6th

I got a pop-up the other day. Unfortunately there was no "**** off" option.


----------



## The Judge

That happened to me, too, the other day, but I couldn't stop it and the bloody thing took over.  Next thing I know I couldn't use my Kaspersky with it, so we spent ages removing the Windows 10, but the Kaspersky still wouldn't work, so more hours sorting that out.  Then a matter of days later I went and broke the lap top and had to buy another -- and the only ones I could get in my price range all had Windows 8 which I'd been warned against, so I've had to go onto Windows 10 after all.


----------



## HareBrain

Brian Turner said:


> Just had a pop-up ask me if I wanted to upgrade to Windows 10. The options were:
> 
> Upgrade Now
> Upgrade Later
> 
> I clicked for "Later" (ie, never) - but the bloody thing then tried to start the Windows 10 download! Luckily I was able to cancel this in the next pop-up, which provided a direct link to my Download settings - so I clicked through "Optional downloads", saw Windows 10 was checked, and then unchecked it.
> 
> Cheeky Microsoft!



It won't stay unchecked, believe me. As it's only an optional update, we should be OK, but to be on the safe side I've turned off automatic installing of updates, in case they upgrade it to "important" (which is unlikely, but who knows with these pushy idiots?)


----------



## crystal haven

Brian Turner said:


> Just had a pop-up ask me if I wanted to upgrade to Windows 10. The options were:
> 
> Upgrade Now
> Upgrade Later
> 
> I clicked for "Later" (ie, never) - but the bloody thing then tried to start the Windows 10 download! Luckily I was able to cancel this in the next pop-up, which provided a direct link to my Download settings - so I clicked through "Optional downloads", saw Windows 10 was checked, and then unchecked it.
> 
> Cheeky Microsoft!


I had this too, but just closed the pop up without choosing. Nothing seems to have happened.


----------



## Ursa major

Windows 8.1 is okay.  It has its quirks, but then so does Windows 7. (After all, they're both versions of Windows.)

To get rid of (most of**) the nagging, look to see if you've installed KB3035583, whose role has nothing to do with fixing issues (security or otherwise) but is there to facilitate the advertising and eventual downloading of Windows 10.

I have my PC and laptop (W7 and W8.1 respectively) set to check for updates and tell me when they're available for downloading, but because KB3035583 was a recommended update and said nothing about W10, I downloaded it (only discovering what it is by accident, in a Grauniad article that said that W10 itself would be a recommended update next year. (It would, apparently, let one know that it was W10, though possible only because its size would already be a giveaway.) In the meantime, I think people who've expressed an interest in W10 may have (unwittingly) told M$ that W10 is an acceptable update.

But with W10, being able to pick and choose is, apparently, no longer an option, not for home users. According to this (different) Grauniad article, updates will follow one of two rules (not the current three): 1) download, install and reboot the computer automatically; 2) download, install and ask to reboot the computer. Each user will have to be confident that their hardware support is compatible with how W10 evolves***.


** - It doesn't go away entirely. 

*** - Isn't W10 able to be the last Windows because it'll always be changing? (That's what I heard, but may be wrong.)


----------



## Ray McCarthy

They are back porting the data slurping to Win 7 and Win 8.x. Also they have renamed the service in Win10 to catch out folk that figured how to disable the Telemetry.

My theory is that MS secretly own a major Linux Distro. Why else are they trying to make their OS illegal in most of the world and alienate their entire corporate customer base. None of this makes any commercial sense.


----------



## Overread

Ms wants to cut down its support costs and a big way to do that is to get everyone on the same OS. If they can do that their next target is to do what Adobe are doing and a lot of other big names which is to shift from single cost purchases onto a rolling account approach. Ergo you pay X a month/year and get the software along with every automatic update for it. That means everyone is running the same software, updated at about the same time and you've got money trickling in all the time. 

The other option is shifting to a free OS but having "app" bolt ons for everything (which considering how the mobile market basically works that way - heck even basic things like a calculator are now downloadable "apps" is not a far cry from a possibility)


----------



## Glitch

Corporate customers have enterprise agreements or software assurance which means they pay large yearly fees and are entitled to use the latest version of the software. Most take so long to upgrade that they're usually a version behind.

Pretty much all of the corporate IT managers I've spoken to still consider Windows 7 the latest desktop OS from Microsoft. They allow Windows 8.1 on laptops and that's it. They generally have some techies running Windows 10 but other than that they have no interest in considering it for end users until the end of next year at the earliest.

Microsoft is probably seeing Apple and Google making money from their respective app stores and is looking to target that market with Windows 10. Currently they make no money from the consumer once you have the OS.

Adobe's move to subscription is a little worrying. Consumers, or hobbyists tend to buy the professional software packages they use in alternate years in order to keep the costs down. Whether that be photo editing, video editing, animation etc. If money becomes tight then it's no issue to keep using the current package rather than upgrade. The problem in Adobe's subscription approach is once you stop paying, the software either stops working or switches to read only.

There are of course a variety of free alternatives, which Ray would happily point out.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Glitch said:


> of course a variety of free alternatives


Not to Adobe photoshop.  I bought Paint Shop Pro7. There are other newer packages for advanced photo editing that are OK, but none free.  Simple Crop / Resize / Gamma etc, yes, plenty of free stuff.

People (even companies) may buy software and less and less frequently update, because frankly newer versions often WORSE (PSP 10 vs PSP7, MS Office with Ribbon compare to Office 97, 2002/XP or 2003).

Maybe 20 years ago you had to upgrade every year, and 15 years ago every other year. Not any longer. OS X, Linux, Windows, MS Office etc long ago stopped getting more productive in any significant sense. If MS released a single "Professional" classic Edition, with all the best of NT4, W2K and XP, that would really sell. All this fake differentiation of versions, trying to make desktop/laptop compatible with tablets and phones, monkeying around with were stuff lives, windows 2.0 style artwork, data slurping etc is absolute insanity. They have lost sight of WHY 14 years later over 25% of PCs still run XP and why people prefer Office 2002/2003 etc.

They lost the plot sometime around 2003/ 2004. The Ribbon, Vista, Win 8.x (Win7 should have been free to Vista users it's only a fix up of Vista), Win 10, Subscription, Data slurping, One API/GUI for everything is all madness. Modern UI / Metro is based on Zune. It's a fine idea for a phone or small tablet. Larger tablets need a different GUI as do Laptop/Desktops. Xbox & TVs need yet another GUI.  Servers need the ability to do EVERY command via GUI, or scripts or text Console.  I can't see this ending well. I thought when Ballmer and Sinofsky went that MS would "get it", but no they seem determined to force the "Cloud", half finished ill designed Win 10, abusing privacy, and subscription down people's throats.  It would be a great opportunity for OS X (except recent versions are going backwards) and Linux Ubuntu (except current Gnome, Systemd, Unity etc is madness). So even experts are not sure what to do for the best.  People are either trying to stick with what they have, OSX or various Linux (Mint with Mate Desktop seems to be doing better than Ubuntu). It's not pretty. If Win 10 is so great why has MS to not just give it free but make it very hard to avoid it?

The idea of replicating iTunes and Playstore for Laptop/Desktop windows is doomed. Even Apple hasn't locked down OS X like that.

Subscription model for software is a total rip off. That's why Adobe has changed to it and MS wants to change to it.

I can't recommend anything to anyone any more. 

If you only do email, writing and Web, then Linux Mint.

If you want to do advanced media editing, then maybe  OS X. You'll need a new computer and lots of money. Apple may scrap Mac and OS X any year. They only have a commitment to their own hardware, and only when it's making good money. The Mac Servers are gone. The iPod Classic is gone. Though iThings are very expensive Apple will not let you access the onboard data via USB storage, you have to use an iTune client. Nor will they add a 50c SD card socket (the connections and SW cost effectively nothing). 

If you have a load of specialist Windows applications and you are on XP, then Win7 / Win8 / Win10 might not work anyway. WINE on Linux might or might not work.


----------



## Edward M. Grant

I only use Windows for games, video editing and iTunes these days. Oh, and some support stuff for work. Otherwise it's various Linux variants, or the iPad. I can't see ever going back to Windows as something I use daily.

Couldn't even install Windows 10 on that PC if I wanted to, because it breaks the VPN I need for work.

Oh, and don't forget: now Microsoft have said there will be one Windows and it will be Windows 10, and updates will be mandatory... when they next decide to radically change the user interface, it will just appear on your PC one day with no option to stay with the old version.


----------



## thaddeus6th

Edward, that's disappointing to hear.

It's like Microsoft are remembering all the terrible PR they got with the pre-launch of Xbox One and are thinking "How do we get that for our PC business...?"


----------



## Overread

Interesting it just tried it with me too - changing my default to "detect and install" and auto selecting windows 10. Honestly very shady but it will likely work at getting a LOT of people caught into Windows 10 without realising. 

I've got 8.1 and I've no reason to want to update.


----------



## psikeyhackr

Software does not wear out.  What is to stop people from using the same OS for 100 years?

How can they make money on that?  LOL

I am working at a school using mostly Windows 7.  I don't even like 8.  In the upgrades menu you can disable automatic upgrades and take the W10 upgrade icon out of the tray in the lower right.  But Macroscam did screw with the W10 upgrade select so it will not stay hidden.

psik


----------



## mosaix

I've got a fairly new laptop with 8.1 and will probably go 10 next year some time. I've also got a fairly powerful desktop running XP and intend to turn that over to running LINUX at about the same time. What's the easiest way of doing that?

I suppose I have to have XP running in order to download LINUX but then what? Configure a new partition for it? Do I still need the old XP partition?


----------



## psikeyhackr

mosaix said:


> I suppose I have to have XP running in order to download LINUX but then what? Configure a new partition for it? Do I still need the old XP partition?



The weird thing is that Linux installs seemed to be easier and work better 5 to 10 years ago.  LOL

Download a live CD image and burn it to CD or DVD.  The install Should lead you through.  If you have never done this before I would suggest getting another hard drive and install there first to become familiar with the procedure.  You could copy your drive first and mess with the copy.

Check this out:

Ultimate Boot CD - Download the UBCD

psik


----------



## mosaix

psikeyhackr said:


> The weird thing is that Linux installs seemed to be easier and work better 5 to 10 years ago.  LOL
> 
> Download a live CD image and burn it to CD or DVD.  The install Should lead you through.  If you have never done this before I would suggest getting another hard drive and install there first to become familiar with the procedure.  You could copy your drive first and mess with the copy.
> 
> Check this out:
> 
> Ultimate Boot CD - Download the UBCD
> 
> psik



Excellent! Never thought of burning a CD! I can do away with the XP partition altogether. Just out of interest approx how much disc space does the initial LINUX implementation need?

PS Thanks for your help.


----------



## HareBrain

It's just tried the "now or later?" thing again, and started the download. After stopping that, I hid the update, so let's see if that has any effect.

ETA: No, it didn't. It's unhidden and re-checked it. I really, really resent that I'm being made to feel paranoid about my own computer, effectively forced (due to that paranoia) to make it less safe (by turning off automatic important updates) and generally being made to feel stressed. If any Microsoft executive came round here now I'm not sure I'd be responsible for my actions.


----------



## Brian G Turner

HareBrain said:


> turning off automatic important updates



I have "important" still checked - but the Windows 10 upgrade comes under "optional upgrades" for me.


----------



## thaddeus6th

How do you turn off said updates?

I got the pop-up again, clicked X again. It's annoying me.


----------



## psikeyhackr

mosaix said:


> Excellent! Never thought of burning a CD! I can do away with the XP partition altogether. Just out of interest approx how much disc space does the initial LINUX implementation need?
> 
> PS Thanks for your help.



It may vary with which distro but most should fit in 10 gig or less some in 5.  Thinking of 10 gig as small is still kind of amazing to me since my first hard drive was 20 megabytes.  LOL

Q4OS - desktop operating system
Zorin OS - Home
The leading OS for PC, tablet, phone and cloud | Ubuntu

psik


----------



## HareBrain

Brian Turner said:


> I have "important" still checked - but the Windows 10 upgrade comes under "optional upgrades" for me.



Same here -- but I've heard they will be making it a "recommended" update at some point (so if you have the settings box "give me recommended updates in the same way I receive important updates" checked, it could in theory install it automatically), and I wouldn't put it past them to make it an "important" one, just because I now have lost all trust in them.

@thaddeus6th, it's in control panel, updates, change settings.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

thaddeus6th said:


> How do you turn off said updates?



Get OS X, Windows XP, or Linux?


----------



## psikeyhackr

thaddeus6th said:


> How do you turn off said updates?
> 
> I got the pop-up again, clicked X again. It's annoying me.



type  upd  in the start menu and the "Windows Update" should appear in the selections.

Click that and the update window should open.

"Change Settings" will be in the list

psik


----------



## thaddeus6th

Thanks, HareBrain (and psikey). I don't really want to fiddle with that. But then, I don't want to wake up and find I've had 10 forced on me either.

*sighs*

This problem would be resolved if Microsoft had more trust.

Ray, I had XP, but changed to 7 when support for XP ended.

Unsure if I'll change, but at least I know how now.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

I have DOS, Win 3.11 FW, Win98, W2K, XP, Win 7 on different machines   I just don't connect older ones to Internet.
I have Rasberry Pi B,  Netbook, laptop, desktop and a server all with various Linux versions.

"Supported" is pretty meaningless unless you are a corporate user. If you have fire wall router, All silly services turned off, Firefox + NoScript, Thunderbird rather than Outlook, don't open attachments, macros disabled in Office, education etc then XP is safer than *ordinary* user with Win 10 or Linux or OS X.
Most malware is
1: Social Engineered (people actually install it!)
2: Nasty scripts on websites trivially blocked by NoScript
3: Exploiting services that should be disabled in services.msc

Not because you are running XP instead of Win 10.
I'm mostly using Linux because some programs I use every day are not supported on XP any longer. Only on Linux, Win 7 etc.  Not primarily due to security issues yet.


----------



## Brian G Turner

It did it again! 

Do you want to upgrade to Windows 10? No.
Well, we'll download it anyway...

I unchecked the setting in updates, but apparently I already have 2.6GB of the Windows 10 update already downloaded!

Cheeky ************!


----------



## Brian G Turner

The dialogue came up again today. Rather than click an option, I simply clicked on the red cross in the top corner to close it. At least it didn't attempt to download and install this time.


----------



## psikeyhackr

Brian Turner said:


> It did it again!
> 
> Do you want to upgrade to Windows 10? No.
> Well, we'll download it anyway...
> 
> I unchecked the setting in updates, but apparently I already have 2.6GB of the Windows 10 update already downloaded!
> 
> Cheeky ************!



Your computer is the property of Macroscam.  You will upgrade when told, even when you say no.  Big Brother knows what is best for you.

psik


----------



## Glitch

I don't know about Macroscam , but here is an article from Microsoft on how to manage the windows 10 upgrade. It provides some pointers on how to block it.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351


----------



## psikeyhackr

Glitch said:


> I don't know about Macroscam ,



I used to work for IBM, Imperial Benevolent Malevolence.  

psik


----------



## Ray McCarthy

In other news ... ancient dead Symbian OS is used more than Windows Mobile for US Government Websites and all desktop windows is down to 57% (Due to Mobile / Tablet where Android is the leader).  The UK sales channel is still shipping less Windows 10 than hated Vista in the same release period, but 14% are not real laptops/PCs, but convertible Tablets. A tiny proportion of Win 10 Channel sales are to Business.   Windows XP *stiil* out numbers Win 10 in Internet usage very slightly. As few Win 10 are not Internet connected and there are substantial numbers of XP not used on the internet ...  This for a FREE upgrade for Win 7 / Win 8.x being forced down people's throats.


----------



## HareBrain

Brian Turner said:


> Rather than click an option, I simply clicked on the red cross in the top corner to close it



I didn't think of that. Much easier than clicking "later" and then cancelling the download.


----------



## Parson

clicking on the red cross is what I've consistently done. I thought I was just being a dumb bell used, who didn't like either choice.


----------



## thaddeus6th

The pop-up of annoyance has changed a bit, and now has the options Upgrade Now and Start Download, Upgrade Later.

Fortunately, the red cross continues to work as my preferred choice.


----------



## Droflet

I don't know about you guys, but I've had a gut full of Microsoft. Everyone deserves to be corrupt but hey, a little decorum.


----------



## Judderman

I had been using Windows 7 for 4 years and bought a new laptop. I had seen the awkward to use Windows 8.1 before so I immediately upgraded to Windows 10. I did find I had to ensure the NVidia graphics driver was installed and restart a couple of extra times to get the correct max screen resolution but other than that I have been happy enough with it.
By the way if like me your laptop does not have the Windows Key clearly displayed on it or the box then use a program called Belarc Advisor (free download) to check your computer system info before upgrading.


----------



## J Riff

So IPod classic is gone. I missed it, and all other IPOds and music players. Will not attach to itunes or whatever it is... but anyway: I just found an IPod. it has a 160 gb HD! and is a model 1238. It's got 120 GB free... and I yam looking at ways to use it a removable drive for storage, that's all.
Looks like u have to connect to itunes... go into a data mode of some kind... then it will let you store stuff... which wont be playable on the ipod. I think.
The trick is to hook this 160 GB back into usb somehow... I read where you can install XP, or Linux distros on this thing... any tips appreciated, who can look a gift 160 gb in the mouth?


----------



## Ray McCarthy

J Riff said:


> and I yam looking at ways to use it a removable drive for storage, that's all.


You can't 
The iPod HDDs were special order (mostly Toshiba). They have boot sector protection at the least. You can't reformat them and use on Linux or Windows. They only work in iPod Classic or similar.  It also uses a ZIF connection (same as Acer Aspire one storage I/O). You CAN get a ZIF to IDE adaptor and then an IDE - USB case.

Better off with a Seagate or Western Digital portable USB HDD, or a cheap 2.5" SATA drive, IDE-USB adaptor cases now x3 price of SATA types.


----------



## The Ace

I've tried it twice now (new motherboard and re-install) and abandoned it both times.  Having to go online to play solitaire, no control over updates, and a complete inability to play DVDs (there are supposedly work-arounds, but they don't work) meant it was going back to Windows 7 or using an abacus.

The restore of 7 succeeded, but I got my abacus out and dusted it off.


----------



## Cli-Fi

Use it at work and at home and I Love it. Much faster at home with an SSD. It makes things easier for IT Administration too. I love the notifications, but hate how Cortana requires hotmail account to use all features. That's really my only complaint. I hope that's not future shadowing that it will be harder to use local accounts without the business versions... Good thing I have enterprise anyway.


----------



## J Riff

Aha, a Zif adaptor! As zif I couldn't find a Zif adaptor. As zif...*
Well they say you can get XP onto this thing... and since the cost was zero bux, I say hack away.
There is a 30-step process to get this apart and back together, they make it quite difficult, but no need for that.
160 GB holds perty much all me tunes... apparently there's another way - data mode? through Itunes? where you can just get it
to store stuff, which is as far as I go. The idea of using an actual proprietary music player, well, no interest here, ever. The thing plays vid too... who uses these dinky little things to watch vid on? People with bad eyesight.***)


----------



## Ray McCarthy

J Riff said:


> Well they say you can get XP onto this thing...


If you can partition it / format it to work in ANYTHING other than iPod classic, let me know. I have a brand new unused iPod Classic HDD drive here, we tried everything. A 250G Byte to 320G Byte 2.5" SATA is far faster than those 1.8" ZIF PATA  iPod Classic drives and cost very little. Much cheaper to interface to USB. But a native USB 1000 G Byte HDD is under $100, with warranty.
External USB though is very slow compared to internal PATA/IDE or SATA inside a laptop etc.


----------



## J Riff

Okay, I see what you mean. This thing is a nightmare of proprietarianism, I hate it. It has no Itones, apparently, doesn't show up as a drive, or a device, or anything. It would make a nice xMas present for anyone I don't like. *


----------



## Phyrebrat

Ugh... In a similar vein; today one of the IT guys at a school in which I often teach proudly presented me with 'my own' laptop.

It runs some iteration of Windows and after I quit Microsoft products in 2010 in favour of the supremely simple does-what-it-says-on-the-box Apple range, I've never looked back. (My iMac still flies like the wind, and I'm still using Final Cut Pro and Logic, and Creative Suite 5 with no drop in performance that I've noticed). Anyway. Within ten minutes I was screaming. How is Windows even a thing? Telling me what to do and how to do it their way! It's like giving an ineffective satnav control of your car; you know which way to go but it keeps steering you the other way.

Not that I ever expected to return to Microsoft but this just confirms I made the right choice. Reading the stuff here about Windy 10's aggressive behaviour just has me agog in disbelief. I didn't think it could get any worse from what it used to be! Oh silly me!

pH


----------



## NanShanKongTong

I never really liked windows 8 so I don't think i would ever wanna try windows 10


----------



## J Riff

They work fine on the right machine, with the right settings, but don't go past 7 until the Sarge gives the OK. Linux is just as much trouble unless you are familiar wit it. At least they aren't Macs, which are a bit precious, and never get viruses, which is suspicious. )
 Actually Phyrebrat, if you wipe the thing and install the right OS, you can have it running any way you like. This laptop, discarded because of excessive malware, took two hrs. to fix up and now it boots faster'n yer Mac I'll wager.


----------



## Phyrebrat

Well I don't get into the Mac vs Windows arguments for the same reason it's pointless to try and convince tories to vote labour and vice versa.

Suffice it to say; It works for me without me needing to get qualified in the ever-evolving home PC software environment. And that's fine. My Mac boots in under 30 seconds and that's quick enough for me  if your comp boots quicker that's good enough for you. My Mac never asks me to interrupt boot up, boot down or anything else while it aggressively installs an update or makes decisions for me. Does Windows now not do that? I'm like water; show me the path of least resistance, I'll drop my Mac and switch ... When it stops doing its job... Whenever that may be.  

pH


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Phyrebrat said:


> I don't get into the Mac vs Windows arguments for the same reason it's pointless to try and convince


Yes.
My only objections to Macs is that there is very limited single source of HW, about a 30% premium on price and I'm dubious of Apple's long term commitment to the platform (It's too small a part of their income and they make almost no money from OS X. They killed the Mac Server and took "Computer" out of their name). Otherwise it's better than Vista, Win7, Win8 and Win 10. But like Linux I have applications which run on XP with no OS X version. Linux also has WINE which does run some of the Windows Applications I need.
So if you are only doing photos, video, writing, email, web and can afford the premium for a new machine, then OS X is a far better solution for XP users than Win 10. If you are an Engineer, or other specialist user then Linux is more likely to have a native Linux version of your application and may run your application in WINE. Copying existing Windows program data to Linux and windows font to Linux for migration is trivial. Linux will run on your existing hardware. OSX works well because it's only supported on Apple Mac Hardware.

I sold / supported / programmed for DOS then Windows in Business on and off for thirty years. As far as I'm concerned unless MS does something dramatic the downhill slide that started in 2003 will continue. Win10 is a ghastly idea, badly executed. I'll be keeping a pair of old XP machines, a laptop and Media PC, not used on Internet (Support for patches expires from MS in Nov 2016, not last April for XP if you add POS registry key). I already have an old 386 for DOS for programming motorola radios, and an old laptop with Win98 / Win 2K for specialist tasks that also don't work on XP or Linux.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

You Could Not Make This Up. 

Latest MS Nag screen for Win 10 upgrade offers *Upgrade Now*  or *Upgrade Tonight*.
Microsoft's steps up Windows 10 nagging



> The large pop-up screen, which first appeared over the weekend, gives users the option of upgrading straight away or ... that evening. *Users can still opt out by clicking on the red 'X' *in the top right corner of the window, but less savvy computer users* (part of Redmond's core market segments) might not figure that out.



[* Almost everyone not now migrated to Linux or OS X   ]


----------



## J Riff

Wow 30 secs. that's impressive, you win. I would use a Mac, and will, the minute someone donates me one.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

J Riff said:


> 30 secs. that's impressive


no, 10s would be impressive and wouldn't be.



Phyrebrat said:


> My Mac boots in under 30 seconds and that's quick enough for me


Actually anything Less than 15s would be impressive, which would usually imply SSD. About 3 years ago I wiped a new Win 7 laptop (regular HDD) for a friend, it was taking nearly 90s. After a properly configured XP install it was 20s.
My Oldest XP Laptop* had its XP re-installed once, in June 2002. It still boots in 45s. Not too long to wait.  Oddly the much newer laptop (several years old, got S/H) recently set up with Linux Mint and Mate Desktop) also takes 45s. I may upgrade HDD in it.  My Netbook takes about 20s, it's using a 32G Compact Flash card instead of an HDD. Much slower to write to.

Boot time of itself  doesn't mean much without knowing type of disk and configuration. Also personally, it's irrelevant. I boot two laptops at 7.25am and go make cups of tea for me and Mrs Ray. Then I log in. They are not turned off till about 11pm, or sometimes 3.30am if I'm on a writing binge. 

[* Pretty much used 5 to 12hrs a day every day, on it's fourth battery pack, 2nd keyboard and second casing last year donated by a scrap machine bought for £10, 1600 x 1200 ultra sharp, 1.8GHz, yes it's over 13 years old! Only three months ago replaced by a Linux Mint Laptop for Internet etc, I'll still use it for XP stuff that has no Linux alternative or doesn't run on Linux's WINE]


----------



## J Riff

Well I found an HP tower PC a couple years back, and it was packed solid with insulation, red stuff. It took a while to blow it all out but then voila it runs great and has a 500G HD. This was sitting on the street and various people had looked at it and gone oooh nooo it's got insulation in there, don't touch it! I found 17 other towers, all scrapped now, during the craze for throwing away tower computers (?) .. which seems to have ended. Same for laptops, I have 4 working, the only ones don't work are the ones 'friends' gave me.
 Now this IPOD. Given to someone who dint want it, with a bunch religious vids on it, and they just put it out on the street. It's on Amazon for 500+ bucks. Useless thing, gonna flog it if poss.
 All of this stuff showed up just walking around, not hunting for it. There are a lot of people here with money to throw away I guess.


----------



## J Riff

And now a question not related to Win10. - Trying to play .dat video files. These are vids that play on various sites, that end up in the browser cache with a .dat extension, though it claims to be an .mp4 or .flv. They won't play with VLC or any other player I've tried.
 Then there's software for converting and/or playing .dat files. None of it works.
'Cannot find video stream' and other messages. Tried a bunch of them now, nothing works. A minor annoyance, these files sit there, 50MB or whatever, and remain unplayable.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Some sites "videos" are malware or designed to trick you into downloading trojans pretending to be codecs.

Others really are video. Video files are really just "envelopes" with meta data saying what kind of video it is. As well as file format there is the video codec used, there are now very many. Without the correct codecs installed (only use legitimate sources) a video file or stream won't play. There is also DRM, without correct DRM enabled drivers videos with DRM won't play.

The .dat files mean what ever it was broken, nothing will know what those are. If a site is streaming video it only works at the time if you have all the correct things to play it. It's very unlikely you can utilise the cached .dat files. Delete them as they are either a menace or useless. If you can play BBC iPlayer, YouTube and Dailymotion, then likely you have the common video stuff sorted.


----------



## J Riff

Yep. Codecs, got 'em.These .dat files are hanging around.... it's weird how they will play in the browser, completely, then show up in the cache, yet won't play in the browser offline. It may send you back to the site and play it there, I guess in a player online somewhere? that ... and ... all this software claims .dat envelopes are decipherable... I mean I look at the file with an hex editor and sure enough it has .mp4 or .flv info there, but will-not-decode.
Too much work and finicking. It's hard enough to edit .mp4 and .flv as it is. Some have to be converted, others can be opened using a direct show codec.
Meanwhile... people at the coffeeshop are dling their Win10 updates... and sticking at 97%.A sound card or driver problem, just like Win98? Mercy.*


----------



## Vertigo

I think you'll find the .dat files just contain the data for the video streaming but not the video itself. DAT is certainly not a video file extension.


----------



## Phyrebrat

<guilty admission face> @J Riff ;

My Mac does not boot up in 30 seconds. I had to restart over the weekend and it took well over a minute!

I must have a higher opinion of it, or a crappy sense of timing (worrying for a dance teacher)



pH


----------



## J Riff

I know. It's about a minute here too. And aha, the streaming stuff, that eggsplains it. As for dance lessons on youTube, well why not?


----------



## Bodhi

Resistance.... is .... futile?


----------



## mosaix

Microsoft reveals details of Windows 10 usage tracking - BBC News

_Microsoft has revealed details about the data it is tracking via its new operating system (OS), Windows 10.

In a blog, the firm listed statistics on how many minutes had been spent by users in total in the Edge browser and the number of photographs which had been viewed in the Photo app. _


----------



## J Riff

Just watched a 'hacker' movie - _The Throwaways_, which lives up to its title. In it, the hackster can log in to any computer, bank account, any car or power grid, and blow things up, slam on the brakes, shut down your PC, anything at all. Probably he was using Win10?


----------



## Anne Spackman

Ray McCarthy said:


> It's a train wreck, a disaster in the making.
> 
> This OS isn't ready or finished. Even if it was, the very ideas it's built on are crazy. It's poorer compatibility in some cases than WINE on Linux.
> 
> It's so "good", that like a first "fix" the dealer is giving it free. It later will require paid cloud services to work.
> 
> Ironically Win7 OUGHT to have been free to Vista users. Win 7 is nothing more than a fixed Vista.
> 
> If you are on Win7 or Win  8.1 don't upgrade.
> If you are on XP or Vista, then either go to Win 7 or Linux.
> 
> Don't even think of upgrading for 6 months,* if ever!*
> A worse debacle than Windows ME, Vista or Win 8.0
> (anyone on Win 8.0 needs to go to Win 8.1)
> 
> I sold, Installed and supported and programmed MS products for well over 10 years.
> 
> see  (especially comments!)
> Windows 10 in head-on crash with Nvidia drivers as world watches launch
> (The issue isn't Nvidia or the driver conflict but how Win10 does updates).
> 
> Windows 10: A SYSADMIN speaks his brains – and says MEH
> maybe ...
> 
> 
> It about trying to move to a cloud Subscription model like Adobe and Office 365.
> Oh look – Office Mobile apps to go with your shiny Windows 10
> 
> Desperate Microsoft PAYS Win Server 2003 laggards to jump ship
> 
> We put Windows 10 on a small fondleslab: STILL not ready, 3 days to go
> 
> Windows 10: THE ULTIMATE GUIDE to Microsoft's long apology for Windows 8



I didn't know all of this, but I did hear some things about Windows 10 which kept me from upgrading.  I still have Windows 7 and have no problems with it.


----------



## REBerg

No. Mandatory updates is reason enough.


----------



## thaddeus6th

I've unchecked automatic updating.

Apparently (via Twitter, but there's a link to the Register), Windows 10 is now a recommended update. 
The Register on Twitter


----------



## psikeyhackr

A search did not turn up "planned obsolescence".

They are not trying to make better operating systems just force upgrades to guarantee income.

psik


----------



## thaddeus6th

That does suggest they think there are no alternatives for consumers.

They've even driven me, a lazy luddite, to contemplate potential change. Not to Windows 10. To a tablet with a plug-in keyboard, or similar.

And it wouldn't be a Microsoft tablet. I've grown tired of the Windows 10 nagging.


----------



## REBerg

For those who have jumped into Windows 10 and are now experiencing problems with OS updates, there are some tricks to regain your sanity.

How to Prevent Windows 10 From Automatically Downloading Updates


----------



## Edward M. Grant

thaddeus6th said:


> That does suggest they think there are no alternatives for consumers.



Ultimately, it depends on whether you _really_ must run some Windows program that's not available elsewhere. Most people think they must have Windows, when they could do the things they do just as well on a Mac or a Chromebook.

'I can't switch. I need Word!'
'LibreOffice/Google Docs/Insert Random Word Processor works just as well for the things you write.'
'But it's not Word! I need Word! Learning a different word processor might take half an hour! I mean, just learning everything Microsoft changed in the last Word update took me six weeks!'

And, yeah, for me, Windows is now just a way to run games and Avid Media Composer. For everything else, there's Linux, Android, or iOS.


----------



## pambaddeley

Well, I waited until January thinking that would be long enough to get the bugs out.  It worked OK for a few weeks then .... had an incident when email came up saying it had to close, and the start menu and taskbar icons promptly stopped working.  A reboot - and they disappeared altogether.  After an anxious half an hour or so of fiddling (luckily, desktop icons still worked and gave access to things like browsers and Control Panel), got it working again.  Lots of the admin functions weren't working either, e.g. couldn't create a new account to see if the profile was corrupted.  Would've got round to logging in as the backup, but fixed it before that.

So it all worked OK for another 2 weeks and then about 10 days ago, it happened again and this time majorly messed up.  Error messages on all kinds of programs so that the suggested fixes online couldn't be done.  (Also, the one you see repeatedly to reinstall the apps with a powershell command doesn't work as I discovered the first time, and apparently was blocked by Microsoft some time ago.)  The same symptoms though didn't lose the start menu altogether as I'd installed Classic Shell in the meantime (which I'd used with Win 8).  The Start menu would only open with the Windows key; clicking didn't work.  Taskbar icons disappeared again on rebooting.  Took about 30 mins to log in as the backup user - and that had the same issues.  Machine seemed knackered but yet another reboot after 3 hours of fiddling and rebooting - suddenly fixed it.  All back and working hunky dory.

Today - that email message came up again, the one about Windows Live has had a problem and must shut down. I discovered when it first happened that if you don't click OK, you can carry on using it.  I haven't rebooted because I'm sure it will be knackered again when I do.  What is the matter with Windows 10?????


----------



## Overread

I don't know who came up with the idea, but the idea that a single windows login (eg admin or other user) would be bound to a single windows-live account doesn't sit well with me. Especially since it means you can only use one skype account on the windows metro per account (since skype is tied to windows accounts). 

So I never linked a windows account to my admin account. I just don't see the point when there are regular ways to run all the programs I need to through the windows account without having to attach it to my login.


----------



## pambaddeley

Being wary, I actually have continued to use local accounts on the machine, not log into Microsoft just to log into my PC.


----------



## J Riff

LocaL accounts meaning any account besides 'administrator' ? I allus make one, with a name, but you can turn off password protection... but, is it actually more 'dangerous' to log in as admin??


----------



## Overread

Riff - in theory if you get a virus being on an administrator account is more risky. That said I'm the only one using my computer so I just have one administrator account. It prevents all the "this program is going to be fussy and wants and administrator account to run" problems.


----------



## HareBrain

Sorry to hear of your problems, Pam.

When is the free year up so it will stop bugging me?

One thing at least -- it no longer appears as an auto-selected "optional update" -- nor does it appear as any other kind in the update list, not even as a recommended one.


----------



## Overread

Honestly I don't think the free year will end. MS wants everyone on Win 10 so its in their interest not to actually end the free year. "Due to phenomenal success of the free year feature we have decided to extend it for a further 6 months so that people who have not yet gained the wonders of Windows 10 can join in." It will then bug you every day about it


----------



## J Riff

It does bug, every day. The blue window of '10 is your friend' you must-have-it.


----------



## pambaddeley

HareBrain said:


> Sorry to hear of your problems, Pam.
> 
> When is the free year up so it will stop bugging me?
> 
> One thing at least -- it no longer appears as an auto-selected "optional update" -- nor does it appear as any other kind in the update list, not even as a recommended one.


According to this recent article it is still 29 July as they originally said - How much will Windows 10 cost at the end of the free upgrade period?

I've had the same problem happen 3 times now but there's a pattern - things go 'odd' and there is always an error message from Windows Live Mail about needing to close (if you don't click OK, you can carry on using it)

When you next shutdown and restart, even if you restart the next day, the taskbar icons always disappear.  As I suspected when I posted on Sunday, when I switched on again on Monday, it was in this state.  I did notice that Classic Shell, which I had installed after the first incident in the hope that I would still be able to use the start menu, had become 'deactivated' in the Task manager Startup tab.  I re-enabled it.

If you reboot again - fingers crossed - it comes back to normal.  I'm going to check next time I get the live mail message whether it has disabled Classic Shell before I do the first reboot.


----------



## SilentRoamer

Overread said:


> Honestly I don't think the free year will end. MS wants everyone on Win 10 so its in their interest not to actually end the free year. "Due to phenomenal success of the free year feature we have decided to extend it for a further 6 months so that people who have not yet gained the wonders of Windows 10 can join in." It will then bug you every day about it



One of the main reasons MS are doing this for free is the Chinese market.

A huge amount of MS OS in China are fake. Even the fake instances of Windows (often VLK licensing or OEM builds coming out of Chinese production centres) are getting the option to upgrade to Windows 10. If Microsoft can convert fake Windows (which by the way still update correclty with MS servers) then further down the line they can shove paid for cloud services down the throat of a huge Chinese market.


----------



## J Riff

It's not reaaly 'fake' windows, is it? Just an illegal copy - and it tells you that - 'This copy of windows is not genuine' - and it makes you clik past at least two windows repeating that - everytime you start up. Then you put in a Key and it sits for a few months then starts warning again. It's almost impossible to find a Win7 disk here, so there are tons of online OS that are technically fake, but really are just compiled copies, with a windows 'key' issue.... I think.
If you have a bunch laptops, this is the normal state of affairs.


----------



## Overread

Riff the thing is most of those customers in China will be "innocent" copyright thieves. So the disk is just what they got down the local market. So if Windows can lock them into an official upgrade and then microtransaction at them later most (majority) will get caught by that net.


----------



## J Riff

"Caught' meaning nothing ever happens, or their PC won't work anymore? They should stick to XP which is easy and should be free by now...*
I hacked at Win8 for an hour or so, gave up, won't touch ten. No WAY am I paying for extra Win7 on 5 different laptops.


----------



## SilentRoamer

J Riff said:


> It's not reaaly 'fake' windows, is it? Just an illegal copy - and it tells you that - 'This copy of windows is not genuine' - and it makes you clik past at least two windows repeating that - everytime you start up. Then you put in a Key and it sits for a few months then starts warning again. It's almost impossible to find a Win7 disk here, so there are tons of online OS that are technically fake, but really are just compiled copies, with a windows 'key' issue.... I think.
> If you have a bunch laptops, this is the normal state of affairs.



No there are a significant portion of "fake" OS in circulation. By fake I mean they are hacked licenses that are not Microsoft approved but still get Microsoft updates (no problems with not genuine popups or that sort of thing). A lot of the manufactury (especially those factories that deal with with the OEM OS) are probably skimming additional licenses and gaming their license privileges. As a Microsoft reseller you have a lot of leeway with license creation and allocation - imagine 50,000 machines are manufactured using incorrect OEM or VLK license allocations. Microsoft can't just turn off updates for suspected or duplicate keys or they would kill their support.

These "fake" copies are not widely available but I get a lot of exposure to this sort of stuff in my day to day environment. As I said most of the Chinese market are using fake or misallocated Windows OS licensing - Microsoft wants to milk the China cash cow so they're not going to stamp down.


----------



## J Riff

So the key is fake, the OS is identical. And, the key seems to run out after a month or two. Then you enter a dos command and the warnings disappear for another while. There are lists of thousands of Keys, for all Os, available. Just try until one works and boom!- fake windows. I believe they use duplicate numbers, and they work until Microsoft identifies them? - then they go on a list and show up as fake. Beats me, but my ex-roomie was a Microsoft tech and he had 'compiled' disks that required NO password ever. I miss that guy. * )


----------



## SilentRoamer

J Riff said:


> but my ex-roomie was a Microsoft tech and he had 'compiled' disks that required NO password ever. I miss that guy. * )



This is what I am talking about. Not the semi decent copies where you are scrambling for keys, the ones with compiled key generators. These can only come from either nefarious Microsoft Partners or their affiliates. This is not the same thing as using an OS with a dfferent key and replacing the key. The keys aren't compiled into the software, they are literally permanent licenses which can be assigned by Microsoft resellers, often corporate licenses appied to large VLK license blocks. These will never be identified as fake - because they aren't they are parfectly valid OS's they just aren't sanctioned.

Best analagy I can think of is if you snuck into McDonalds at night and made a BigMac, looks like a BigMac, tastes like a BigMac, but is it a McDonalds BigMac?

I don't really deal with licensing but I know the advanced fake OS ar enot as cut and dry as just using fake keys and recycling them.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

MS actually allows making and distributing copies of almost all their OS, possibly all.
What they don't permit is unlicensed usage, which can involve illegal copies of keys.
There are builds of various OEM Windows versions that are tied to a particular make of motherboard / laptop. That can be annoying, but the same key that you legally have for the replacement motherboard will often work on a different copy of the same OS. Some versions of Windows seem to have OEM build, retail build and Select/MSDN builds.
I've rung ALSO rung MS at 3am and told them about an new PC build not accepting the key. They have noted the key I was using and given me a new one that worked. No charge. 
I've no patience or sympathy with "pirating" of any kind of content, books, music, OS, apps, video etc.  OTH I oppose DRM and regularly remove it on content I've legitimately bought. DRM is un-ethical and breaks Berne Convention on Copyright.


----------



## J Riff

Right. My MS roomie never handed out copies - he was far too intent on the 90$ an hr. he got for doing repairs. He used to come in smiling and say summat like: 120$ for clicking 8 times! Around the house we used his copies, so he could experiment on my PC too. Since I actually use the thing for actual work n' art, it got tiring having him wipe everything and take no interest in anything but how the OS was functioning, with no care what it was being used for.
 I would only pirate stuff that I know is pirated to start with. (<<<loaded statement)


----------



## SilentRoamer

Ray McCarthy said:


> OTH I oppose DRM and regularly remove it on content I've legitimately bought. DRM is un-ethical and breaks Berne Convention on Copyright.



Removing DRM is copyright infringement though (in legal terms) so it is (in legal terms) the exact same as piracy. At least as I understand it.

Not that I disagree with you about DRM though.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

SilentRoamer said:


> Removing DRM is copyright infringement though (in legal terms) so it is (in legal terms) the exact same as piracy.


a) Depends on the Country. I'm not in the USA. 
b) They have to sue you *and prove losses* in most countries. It would only be a civil action in most places outside USA.
c) DRM doesn't usually expire, so it is actually breaking copyright conventions.

Piracy is taking a copy you didn't pay for OR the Supplier did not pay for, OR distributing copies without agreed royalty to copyright holder.
It's not piracy EVER to modify a copy you bought for personal use. It MIGHT violate copyright (see b and c) or "broken" laws in the USA such as the DCMA etc.


----------



## SilentRoamer

Ray McCarthy said:


> a) Depends on the Country. I'm not in the USA.



I'm UK based personally so been interesting with the changing of digital laws over here recently.



Ray McCarthy said:


> b) They have to sue you *and prove losses* in most countries. It would only be a civil action in most places outside USA.



Theft is where losses need to be proven, Copyright Infringement is an expectation of loss (you aren't losing a physical item as digital media is infinitely reproducible) you are losing expectation of sales (as in those people who downloaded were potential buyers).



Ray McCarthy said:


> c) DRM doesn't usually expire, so it is actually breaking copyright conventions.



Yeah there are quite a lot of things that count as copyright infringement, only until the UK laws changed recently a lot of people were making illegal backup copies. Even changing formats (some format types) can still count as infringement.

Thanks for the insights Ray


----------



## Ray McCarthy

SilentRoamer said:


> Even changing formats (some format types) can still count as infringement.


No one EVER got prosecuted in UK (Home 78 recorders in 1930s, reel tape 1950s, cassette from 1962) even without out the MCPS licence which made it legal, for home use, that I can find, for PERSONAL use. Only actual "pirates".


SilentRoamer said:


> Copyright Infringement is an expectation of loss


They have to prove it in a Civil court. If you bought a legal copy and didn't by any method transfer/give it or copy to someone else, then there is no "expectation of loss". No-one has even been taken to court  alleged *personal* misuse as as far as I can find.
OTH, I have found "copyright violation" succeeding in court in Ireland for Cable TV theft of over £100,000 per individual. Civil case, so cable company got the money. There IS a criminal statute of "Theft of Service" that can applied to Pay TV (cable or Satellite or fibre), it's only ever used for Electricity as max fine was £6,000 and/or 6 months prison (or used to be in 1990s). I can't find it being used for Pay TV. (The State gets the money in Criminal actions, the person suing  in Civil Action).


----------



## SilentRoamer

Well copyright infringement laws are as convoluted as their application. I'm fairly certain the DMCA only recently accounted for tablets as something distinct from I-Pads (initial rulings only referring to IPads and not differentiating that an IPad is a specific type of tablet.)


----------



## J Riff

Meanwhile, all the Govt. computers in this country are XP or Win7 and they all seem to want the Win10 upgrade. The little blue window is inescapable.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Win 10 promotion compared to Malware techniques
How Microsoft copied malware techniques to make Get Windows 10 the world's PC pest


----------



## Caledfwlch

A couple of years ago, in the UK, a firm of Solicitors called ACS:Law acting on behalf of the producers of Porn films that had allegedly been downloaded from Torrent sites decided to go to Court, a Solicitors firm in Manchester filed a Class Action Defence, representing all the people that ACSL had decided to try and get a civil ruling against.

Within a couple months of the final hearing ACS:Law as a company had been Liquidated by Bankruptcy, and the guy who owned it was found unfit to practice by the Law Society, and had his licence to practice withdrawn.

It is going to be a very long time, if ever that anyone is stupid enough to try taking someone to court for downloading!

There were various problems with the claim, for example, the Defence were able to show that the software used to track the alleged downloaders has been banned by the Courts of just about every mainland EU Nation, as it does not work correctly, and gives lots of false results. Secondly, the Defence proved that due to the way IP addresses are issued, withdrawn etc, the IP Address you see downloading a file, is not necessarily the person who is downloading the file - an IP address can be refreshed, a new one put in place, and the previous IP address attached to a different User, but it can still show the first person as the "owner" of the address for a while.
Thirdly, ACS Law could not actually prove who downloaded the content (nor can any company) because the person who pays the Internet Bill every month is not necessarily the person who did the downloading, nor is there any legal obligation to name a family member or friend as the person who did it, unlike with Cars where the Registered Keeper must notify the Police who was driving.

They could not prove Losses, and could not justify the whopping great fees they sent letters demanding, and the tone and content of the threatening letters they sent out played a major part in the destruction of both the Company and it's owners career.

The same thing has happened with people accused of shoplifting, where the company hands the details over to a nasty little firm called RLP (Retail Loss Protection) and they send very threatening letters demanding a particular figure. They took 2 15 year old girls, who were actually guilty of shoplifting, and got absolutely hammered in Court, and lost, because they could not prove the figure they demanded was the accurate cost - the girls were defended by a Barrister working for the Citizens Advice Bureaux, thus he had access and permissions from many CAB Clients to help build his defence case, RLP sent out that exact "loss" figure on every single letter, so if a shoplifter broke 2 or 3 bottles of Vodka, and a school girl was caught with taking a £5.99 Lipstick, which was unopened, and placed back on the shelf, the Girl would get the exact "fine" demand as the guy who broke 3 bottles of whisky.

Shoplifting is very, very wrong of course, and puts prices up for everyone, but the Civil recovery scheme is operated unjustly, though again, like with ACSLaw, RLP or any similar company are unlikely to risk court again. And many innocent people get accused, and tricked, or bullied into signing a form or giving their name and address, then they get the threat letters.


----------



## Caledfwlch

I forgot to mention: my current PC is running a legal copy of Windows 7, I bought the PC of a friend who runs a PC/Laptop repair shop, and he included a legal copy of Win 7 because as he does a lot of installs/reinstalls and so on, he buys the licences ridiculously cheap, like £5 a licence or something - so these day's it is unnecessary to use a pirated copy if you know someone who can sell you a legal Key for such a low price 

Does anyone remember, back in Windows XP Days when Microsoft made a huge announcement regarding Windows Update, which would stop copies using pirate keys from updating the system? How it was unbeatable, but got cracked in like 8 hours, and all that was required was opening up update in browser and entering a bit of text into the url bar... 

MS have installed the Windows 10 nag screen for the 8th time now, I am getting sick as hell with them. To misquote Charleton Heston and the National Rifle Association in the US "They can take my Windows 7 out of my cold, dead, hands!!!" 

Until a version of 10, or more likely Windows 11, when 10 bombs that isnt riddled with malware etc, I am sticking to 7.


----------



## Ursa major

Caledfwlch said:


> MS have installed the Windows 10 nag screen for the 8th time now


I was informed (not for the first time) that an important update is available this morning**. It's the same update that I've refused to download and which, when I had, previously, unknowingly downloaded it (because it doesn't state what its true purpose is), I'd uninstalled from two computers (one Win7, the other Win8.1).

When I eventually get Win10, it'll be because it will be pre-installed on a new computer (in the, perhaps unwarranted, hope that such a machine wouldn't be sold with an operating system that lacked drivers for all of its hardware).


** - It doesn't do this every day, perhaps hoping that I'll believe, without checking, that they wouldn't try to download something they know I don't want.


----------



## J Riff

The blue window of annoyance pops up every time one logs outen Hotmail. Then one goes to Windows update and cliks to DL the 19 important updates.
Nothing happens for an hour, then one must shut down, at which point Mr. PC informs one "shutteth thou off your PC, NOT - installing update one of twelve" or whatever it has managed to DL. Then, the coffee shop closes, poof PC off. Fortunately, later, the updates install when you boot up at home. So far.


----------



## Caledfwlch

J Riff said:


> The blue window of annoyance pops up every time one logs outen Hotmail. Then one goes to Windows update and cliks to DL the 19 important updates.
> Nothing happens for an hour, then one must shut down, at which point Mr. PC informs one "shutteth thou off your PC, NOT - installing update one of twelve" or whatever it has managed to DL. Then, the coffee shop closes, poof PC off. Fortunately, later, the updates install when you boot up at home. So far.



Dude! Imagine building a Shakespearian Language Setting for Windows!!!!! instead of "oops something went wrong" "Alas, Sire! thou art suffering a problem, may I suggest the application of Leeches" and so on.


----------



## Brian G Turner

Caledfwlch said:


> Dude! Imagine building a Shakespearian Language Setting for Windows!!!!! instead of "oops something went wrong" "Alas, Sire! thou art suffering a problem, may I suggest the application of Leeches" and so on.



Superb idea.


----------



## thaddeus6th

I'd prefer Darth Vader.

"I find your lack of updates disturbing."


----------



## Caledfwlch

thaddeus6th said:


> I'd prefer Darth Vader.
> 
> "I find your lack of updates disturbing."



Critical Error could be a Tie Fighter zooming past noise, or maybe a turbolaser firing!

I have found a Modern English to Shakespearean Prose translator!!
English to Shakespearean Translator

And thus for a Critical Error we could have
*windows hast suff'r'd a critical 'rr'r, so a ha! prithee restart thy calculation device whilst praying to thy deity of choice. *

One could also *"exsufflicate recycling bin"*

The Windows 10 INSTALL ME, Go on Blud! Malware messages would be
*if 't be true thee wisheth to selleth thy soul to microsoft prithee installeth windows 10 'twill screweth thee in ev'ry way, but, thee knoweth, t's free, bootless and full of spies and malware but free, except of course f'r thy soul, yond is ours. loveth sir william of gates*


----------



## Caledfwlch

Amusingly, there is a Windows 10 App which translates Shakespearean into modern English!
SwipeSpeare - Modern Shakespeare – Windows Apps on Microsoft Store


----------



## Ursa major

Caledfwlch said:


> "...may I suggest the application of Leeches" and so on.


Shouldn't that be:

"...may I suggest the application of yet more Leeches"​


----------



## Caledfwlch

Ursa major said:


> Shouldn't that be:
> 
> "...may I suggest the application of yet more Leeches"​



You are quite right Mademoiselle! especially since Leeches, Blood, for the sucking off appears to apply very aptly to Microsoft's current windows 10 plans. They have us PC Gamers in furious debate too, as there is a potential of them doing an Apple, and issuing a 10 update which means the only way to install 3rd party software is via the Microsoft App Store, and the only way for 3rd Parties to thus distribute their software, such as games, would be by cutting microsoft a slice of their sales action.

The calmer heads are making the point, which I suspect is the correct one, that if MS are that stupid that they try it, they are going to end up hurting in all sorts of places, as at the slightest sniff of this definately happening, major companies, gaming and others would go beserk, and should they then refuse to work under the Windows App Store, they will pretty much exterminate Windows 10 as a going concern, certainly in such a scenario, no Gamer in their right mind would continue to use, or would dare upgrade to 10, they would stick with or go back to 7, limited support life or not, because if the likes of Steam, Electronic Arts, Rockstar etc, major games distribution and publishing houses, not to mention Adobe and Corel refused to play ball, which would pretty much murder Windows 10 as an Operating System of choice for Gamers and the many graphics designers who use Adobe and Corel products on Windows, along with the furious and brutal law suits MS would face, well MS are going to have to be Suicidal to try it. And of course, many, many Businesses use Microsoft Windows of various flavours, and many are using highly bespoke Software, engineered for them to their specifications, and the sorts of Software Developers who provide such services to business are operating in small, if highly profitable markets, and they aren't going to give MS 30% or whatever figure of each sale, just for the honour of allowing their customers to install the software.

I worked for a multinational Company who's worldwide operations were run via a highly customised to their business needs distribution of the SAP Warehouse/stock control/inventory software, Companies like these, who are major players in the world of finance, they are not people MS can easily cross or tick off. Imagine it, its 2019 say, Microsoft announces "that's it - we are no longer supporting Windows 7 for Businesses, its over dudes, continue using at your own risk of whatever malware or viruses come along cos we aint putting out any more updates and fixes, so, what you need to do, is upgrade your entire Group of Companies, the ones that involve manufacturing, warehousing, sales and administrative offices in multiple locations within dozens of nations around the Globe to Windows 10. Then you must contact the Software Developers who's software you are using, which is everything from SAP, to Graphic Design, highly specialised CAD packages, for doing everything from designing light fittings to extremely complex and specialist wiring and electronics assemblies, circuit boards, motherboards, GPS Tracking Software for vehicles, Payroll management, Staffing & other specialist HR software, and all the various software development packages the IT Departments of some of the group of companies use, for example, to create the Software to run the complex Fire, and security alarm systems, and various other electronic products the company builds, which require the company to author software to run, the warehouse I was Systems Admin at alone, dealt mostly with lighting and iirc fire alarm control systems, and that pretty innocent sounding side of the business actually meant that one of the "Stacks" where products were stored carried Radioactivity Warning stickers, due to the components of certain products stored along that stack! So god alone knows what specialist software is used to monitor and deal with that side of things, and of course, the Companies suppliers, partners and possibly even customers own systems would need to distribute their products via the Windows App Store and thus give MS a cut of their action.... and that is one Company (which in the business areas under its Umbrella includes the 19th century inventor Thomas Edison's company, which they bought out years ago)

It would be utter chaos, The current board of Directors at Microsoft's Great Grandchildren would still be fighting the lawsuits.

I think most of this is people reading to much in ideas MS Executives are tossing around in their "Blue Sky thinking" sessions, and it mostly appears to have been kicked off by Tim Sweeney, the Head of Games Developer, Epic Games, who has either gone all drama queen interpreting random ideas being tossed around, not solid plans, or is intentionally attempting to manufacture an anti microsoft scare for whatever reason, just about everyone else on the Web, all the experts at Gaming and Software Magazines and so on are bemused at his hysterical behaviour, for all the reasons I mention above, there is no way MS could get away with it, it doesn't mean he is wrong and Microsoft wont try it, but I strongly suspect that it would never go into operation, the Market would tear Microsoft's corpse to pieces, if it did seem like something they would be stupid enough to ignore the world, and actually implement, I suspect that for example the Senior Guys at Steam for example would be using it and decrying it very loudly, because they would see it as the perfect opportunity to "big up" their Steam Gaming Operating System, their silence is perhaps telling, but people, Mainly this Sweeney guy and the sort of angry internet posters who cannot spell (says Mr Typo here ) and rant and rave and send out personal death threats via easily traceable means, in between eating crayons! I am not too worried at the moment, They couldn't even get 8.1 working right, this UMP Project is not likely a threat, what it will do is make life easier for the developers of those rubbishy facebook apps and games, who will be able to write one bit of code using the UMP API thingy, and that code will run identically on any phone, tablet, laptop, desktop PC running Win 10, rather than having to code different revisions for multiple types of device, It wouldn't even benefit the PC Games industry, the "proper" one that makes games that need expensive, but oooh soo sexy and beautiful hardware to run  a mate showed we his new graphics card and gaming case a couple of days ago. I was nearly sobbing at it's beauty, and the shiny red LED lights.......

What IS peeing me off about this UMP stuff, is I guarantee, if Microsoft did implement it, I don't know about the United States, but the EU would have them in Court within weeks, for breaking various anti competition and monopoly laws - which is absolutely right, and it's what they are there for, but, Apple are already doing this as I understand it, and have been for years, I have read that you can only install software onto modern Apple products via the Apple App store, and thus pay Apple a cut, the Apple system is so heavily locked down, it makes any anti competition action by Microsoft look nice in comparison, yet the EU continues to do nothing, not even investigate!!! I don't understand why Microsoft get fined because they dared to include Internet Explorer on Windows Installs, yet iirc, Apple products install Safari the same way, but... No EU Action. Starting to think that Apple must have bribed that particular department of the EU, and managed to bribe heavily enough that they turn down Microsoft Bribes  or more likely, the people in that department are all (wince) typical Hipsters with more money than sense, and who are more attached to Apple products than the most fervent religious person is to their God!.


----------



## Ursa major

Caledfwlch said:


> Mademoiselle


_Monsieur_, s'il vous plait.


----------



## Caledfwlch

Ursa major said:


> _Monsieur_, s'il vous plait.



I apologise  I don't actually have a clue what I thought you were a Madame! 

Must use Dear Sir/Madam next time


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Caledfwlch said:


> I thought you were a Madame!


That's his sister Ursula Ursa, though it's rude to call her a Madame. He has a younger brother, Ursa Minor.


----------



## Caledfwlch

Ray McCarthy said:


> That's his sister Ursula Ursa, though it's rude to call her a Madame. He has a younger brother, Ursa Minor.



Ah, that explains it, its my awful eyes betraying me again! plus my specs are very battered & out of date, I got a dirt cheap pair with "standard" lenses from specsaver, but my eyes have refused to adapt, same with a pair from boots year before last, it's not just the "weird" focussy effect you get temporarily with new specs, everything actually looks smaller, and books are unreadable, the text appears to small, as its the same with sets from 2 different businesses, it can't be an error with the lens being shaped to my optical prescription, I think it is mostly because they are so thick, and that thickness is also letting in loads of light, but £40+ on top for the thinning service is out of reach currently. 

Mind, the fact I am stuck with using an ancient 17" square LCD Monitor with awful clarity and screen brightness doesn't help  
We have one of those "recycle" shops in town here, selling "cheap" used furniture and electronics, that people stupidly still donate to it. When it opened, it was a charity, and had a nice big grant 2 I think in fact from the Welsh Senate, and the County Council, because they were a charity, and their business & game plan, ie the one that was the reason they qualified for grants so large, they were able to buy the unused platform and the section of the magnificent 1920's railway station building that runs along that platform wall the open to air parts with thick glass, and totally refurbish their section of the Station, and build a garage and storage section directly behind, AND build a second weirdly thin storage building that runs along the tracks on the side which is a small retail park, so expensive prime retail space too,  which shows how much they must have been given, the grants were awarded as they were to provide extremely cheap furniture and electronics to people on low incomes and benefits, so furniture would have 2 prices, normal and low income/benefits, but for someone on jobseekers allowance, of at the time probably about £68 a week, from which they had to find food, utilities and so on, even the "special" prices were from the start completely unaffordable, and the state of the stuff furniture they were trying to shift, was unbelievable.
last year they had some chairs that looked like they were thrown out of an OAP Care home, they were battered, not remotely immaculate, but what proved it was, no matter whatever they had done to wash them, you could smell urine strongly before you even got close, yet the special price of those chairs was about £30-£35 each! it was extraordinary, they weren't special chairs, they weren't orthopaedic they weren't adjustable, it was mad.  last month they had a black leather 2 seater sofa, very expensive brand new I imagine, and very comfy as the retail price would have reflected, but now, this sofa, the black leather had turned nearly white in large spots all over, it was extremely crinkled, mind you, to be fair, it was difficult to see if it had turned nearly white in parts, because the entire sofa looked like it had been shredded to bits like someone had annoyed a large Lion with anger management and aggression issues, and blamed the Sofa for the annoyance. It were a bargain though!!! Only £70. 

3 or 4 years ago, they very, very quietly decided to stop being a charity, former staff members have suggested various factors were probably involved, generally to do with executive/trustee behaviour, and dodgy accounting, I forget the specifics, but the fact the charity had been given grants on the strict basis they provide a genuine affordable discount to the low income population, and they failed to do that from opening day even, combined with the fact that the construction work they spent massive amounts on, despite large parts of it being unnecessary, and I think the cost of the new construction they commissioned and the refurbs to the existing estate was significantly and suspiciously much higher than the work that was done warranted (the new building they had built is also empty, always has been...)  basically the sort of thing that often happens in small towns, if anyone "official" in terms of governmental ombudsmen is dozens, often significant more miles away, and it just so happens that the Builders firm used, who's quote was much, much higher than every other local firm who bidded, and those other firms had a much better reputation than the 1 used, but it just so happens, 1 of the charity's Executives happen to have a relationship with the chosen company. 

It's the sort of thing that happens all the time here, Ceredigion must be one of most corrupt Councils in the UK, and the town councils within Ceredigion aren't much better, there are also serious issues of a lack of democracy here. Town and County Councillors, for example sometimes make really far sighted land purchases, ie a Councillor will buy some land, they of course never thought about it, they just saw some really cheap land, and 3 -6 months later they sell the land for a large profit, to a company who just happened to be in negotiation with the council at the time the land was bought by the far sighted councillor, and want to develop it for housing. I don't understand why the companies themselves dont investigate the land owners properly, especially when the land was bought, to ensure they aren't being set up for a sting by a councillor or a council employee who had access to commercially sensitive information like corporate negotiations, either through their actual job, or councillor status, or a friend who is an employee who did have access tipped them the nod, it must cost companies a fortune in land costs that had a bent person not gotten involved would have been much cheaper!

What part of this charities grants that weren't spent on the the construction side, went on the extremely high wages of the executives, who didn't actually do anything, just popped in for 5 mins a week to sign papers an exec needed to sign. I have a relative who worked for them as a salaried employee, and he says they were def on at least 65,000 a year, as he saw paperwork, but he cant remember the exact figure, it was deffo no less, but was almost certainly higher - that much money for doing nothing, relation was there from the start, all the setting up of the charity, the business plans, grant applications etc, the Execs did nothing, they paid experts to do all that, and just signed everything off. They are now a not for profit, which means paying no taxes, as the senior wages are so high, but the staff who actually do the work are on minimum wage, and their "supervisor" the only senior person there daily is only on a quid or so more an hour, so of course they dont make a profit to be taxed on, the exec's salary for doing nothing ensures that, I bet there are "bonuses" to, presumably a bonus they award themselves for not going in for a whole week  Also being NFP, they are pretty much under no external oversight whatsoever, unlike when they were a charity. plenty of signs and so on banging on about how they exist to help the poor of the area by providing "dirt cheap" furniture and so on, they even claim to donate stuff to local charities and to people via social services, noone in the area knows of anybody who has received such a thing, and I suspect a browse of social services records, if it were possible, would also show no sign of the claimed support. Apart from Wages and bills, utilities etc, they have absolutely no expenditure, as everything is donated by people who think they are still a charity, the notice stating they are now NFP not a charity, is very small and out of the way usually, and the people who do know but still donate, if they never go in browsing to buy, likely believe they are selling dirt cheap stuff to low income people. But it's very typical of Ceredigion! I suspect Welsh Councils in general are probably the most corrupt, we have it to a fine art, us Welsh!

I have known Police Officers, as friends online and real world, and as "colleagues" for example when I was living in Yorkshire, I worked in a role that involved a lot of Police Liaison, and I have a friend who used to be in Thames Valley Police, and a relative who was in the Met, but has returned home to work for Dyfed Powys Police (the force area that covers Ceredigion, and 3 other counties) and they all speak of Dyfed Powys Police in tones of awe, every single one considers DP Police to be the No 2 in the rankings of Force with most corrupt officers, etc, behind the Met at No 1, which is probably a surprise to nobody  my relative, she only came home because she is one of those who joined the Police to do good, and she went for the Met as it looked like somewhere interesting and action packed to work, for obvious reasons, plus as a Welsh Speaking Officer, had she joined Dyfed Powys, she would most likely have been bounced between duties in Carmarthenshire, and Ceredigion, Carms not so bad, but in Ceredigion, she didn't really want to be in the position of having to arrest people she knew, went to school with and so on. When she transferred back here, the Met had burnt her out spiritually, she had lost her love for the job, the desire to do good and help people, and her Faith in the Police and in herself as a force for good that protects the public, was near shattering, because of all the corruption and dodgy stuff she saw at least every couple of days, of seeing fellow Officers who loved their job, because if they were having a bad day, they could go give someone a kicking for "resisting arrest" its that attitude some people join with - I fancy being in a gang, having brawls, getting "perks", but why join a Gang, when I can join the Police, the biggest and hardest gang on the street instead, and not only have all the brawls I want, but get to use weapons, with little chance of comeback, providing I don't murder someone or put them in a coma, because I got too carried away... and she couldn't inform on the people she saw who were disgraces to the uniform, as her career would be over, as someone who for example went to Professional Standards, with evidence, of an Officer taking drugs as payment for turning a blind eye, or any number of stuff that would gain a prison sentence for the Officer if caught red handed, because she would have been marked, no officers would talk to her, except when they had to "for the job", cold shouldered, and she would have been bullied, and Management, at least at the Sergeant Level, if not Inspector, would be doing their best to push her out, marking her wrongly on appraisals putting pressure on, and when she had enough, Dyfed Powys wouldn't have taken her transfer, no force would. She says she has seen dodgy stuff going on here, mostly down in pembrokeshire esp the wild streets of Haverfordwest & Milford Haven, but nothing compared to London, more at the level of Constables being a bit quick to use force, stuff like that. But she is now transferred to Ceredigion, as she knew she would eventually be, and is a happy normal person again, being the cop she wanted to be, but in a rural & small town area, where she has pretty much zero risk of being knifed or shot, punched, or spat on, yes, but nowt worse.


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## Caledfwlch

May I ask why Madame is rude? it is the French polite formal form of address of someone you are not acquainted with. Genuinely puzzled.


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## Ray McCarthy

Caledfwlch said:


> May I ask why Madame is rude? it is the French polite formal


It has two meanings derogatory in English ... one alludes to a poorly behaved child (She's quite a madam) and the other is the operator of a certain kind of establishment. It CAN be an old fashioned form of address in an English letter.

My last native French acquaintance was a bloke and we never discussed how to address French women, which might be a minefield today, as sometimes it is in English now. We still email occasionally. I do listen to a French radio station* (via satellite and one of those Car MP3 /Phone FM adaptors so I listen on a nice FM Radio), but it's not a word or subject I've heard on it.

[*For the music, My language skills other than English are non-existent, though likely I know more German, Latin, French and Hebrew than Irish. Polish and Chinese is more useful in Ireland after English than Irish anyway, it's not like Wales and Welsh]


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## Ray McCarthy

Caledfwlch said:


> I am stuck with using an ancient 17" square LCD Monitor


If you have glasses for reading, then 15" to 16" (4:3) is about the limit due to field of view. I have a very nice matt 19" LCD (it's 5:4, there are NO square LCDs), but I can't use it at my reading distance, about 30cm, it's really a gamer's screen as the resolution isn't that high. My 2002 15" 4:3 1600 x 1200 60Hz laptop LCD is best. Next best are my CRTs, they have almost 17" diagonal (4:3) 1600 x 1200 @ 75Hz (I can run them at reduced height 1920 x 1080 50Hz). I have two on my desktop PC.

The WS format (16:9 or 16:10 or wider) is RUBBISH for reading, it's a VIDEO inspired format derived from NHK Japanese 1125 line HDTV (1080 lines visible).

You need a matt screen and sideways to window.


----------



## Caledfwlch

Ray McCarthy said:


> If you have glasses for reading, then 15" to 16" (4:3) is about the limit due to field of view. I have a very nice matt 19" LCD (it's 5:4, there are NO square LCDs), but I can't use it at my reading distance, about 30cm, it's really a gamer's screen as the resolution isn't that high. My 2002 15" 4:3 1600 x 1200 60Hz laptop LCD is best. Next best are my CRTs, they have almost 17" diagonal (4:3) 1600 x 1200 @ 75Hz (I can run them at reduced height 1920 x 1080 50Hz). I have two on my desktop PC.
> 
> The WS format (16:9 or 16:10 or wider) is RUBBISH for reading, it's a VIDEO inspired format derived from NHK Japanese 1125 line HDTV (1080 lines visible).
> 
> You need a matt screen and sideways to window.



It's not just reading, I need glasses for everything  I used to have a Dell 20" widescreen second hand for £30, but in brand new condition, that had stunning quality and clarity, it sadly passed on to wherever monitors spirits go. This monitor I am having to use is one a mate had in his attic, 10+ years old, and it's some random cheap make, so it had already seen its best years when I got it, no amount of playing with the limited onscreen settings it has produces any better or brighter but not too bright image than I am currently getting, size wise is fine for internetting till I can get a widescreen again, its just giving a dark & dull picture, which isn't playing well with my awful eyesight and old optical glazing. Come end of August/September, I shall be able to build a reasonable gaming system with widescreen. Well, I say reasonable, I mean on a budget, but not one of the new fangled Processor APU's, it shall have a PCI Express Graphics Card. I don't mind not playing games on Ultra type settings, nor am I bothered about High Def with gaming, if it will run Witcher 3 with reasonable medium/high graphics, and no lag, I shall be extremely happy, and probably lose weeks, if not months


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## Ursa major

Caledfwlch said:


> I apologise


There's no need to apologise, particularly as it's a logical deduction: Ursa is the feminine form of the word, Ursus. And without having read my explanation** -- well, explanations, because you're not the first to make that deduction -- the gender of the word is all you had to go on.


** - Basically, the first forum I ever joined was one run by Kalmbach, a US publisher of railroad-related magazines and books. I joined as USRA major, which is (surprise, surprise) a pun: USRA stands for the United States Railroad Administration, an organisation that ran US railroads during and immediately after the US's involvement in World War One. One of the things USRA did was to produce a series of standard locomotive designs. Locomotives built using these plans were sold to many railroads, something of benefit to model manufacturers and modellers. The former have been able to manufacture long production runs of models that could be used on models of many prototype railroads (and, obviously, freelanced ones); the latter have not always had to wait until a model of the prototype*** locomotive they wanted on their layout was produced, in small numbers, in (expensive) brass. Instead, they could buy a much cheaper plastic mass-manufactured model, one which could be easily modified to create an accurate representation of the required prototype. When I joined the the Chrons, I merely corrected the spelling. (I didn't use Ursus major, because there isn't a constellation... er... bearing that name.)

*** - Or, in the case of those freelancing, they've not had to run locomotives that would, in real life, never have been seen away from the railroad that owned them (e.g. a K4 pacific is not likely to have been seen away from the rails of its Pennsylvania Railroad owners, except at various Union stations in the North East). An USRA light pacific, by contrast, might have been purchased by the freelanced railroad (wherever it was supposed to have been within the US), had that railroad existed in the real world.


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## REBerg

Another Windows 10 horror story.

At a family Easter gathering hosted by a sister-in-law, she asked me if I could look at her computer because "it was all black" (not a high-tech member of the clan). Turns out her monitor had gone dark, although both it and the 5-year-old desktop powered up when the switch was flipped.

She said that her computer had upgraded to Windows 10 on its own. After that, she started getting error messages. Then, nothing. She had no recollection of what the messages were telling her.

I put an ear to the box on start-up and heard nothing indicating the machine was posting. No error beeps detected. She had no other monitors available, so I couldn't determine if hers had died.

She thinks she will need to buy a new computer. She might be right.

Another case of the long arm of Microsoft reaching out to force Windows 10 upon the world?


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## J Riff

Hmm. I have an HP laptop with a screen all blunk out. Turns out the graphics chip lifts off the MB when it gets hot for too long. But a desktop shouldn't do dat, usually, so maybe it IS a Win10 glitch. Bet it is. )


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## Ray McCarthy

I keep a copy of Linux on a USB stick for testing ... You only need a cheap 16G stick. Linux Mint 32bit (works on 64bit CPUs) and Mate Desktop rather than Cinnamon (which needs better 3D/GPU support).

Anything after 2003 should boot from USB. I have DVDs and CDs to boot older computers, and also used to have a floppy with minimal Linux OS and USB driver to boot a specific Linix from USB on old computers with no boot option for USB.

It's possible to blow a fuse / damage some CRT monitors with wrong graphics settings (last did it on an ACT Sirius 1 in 1981) but not to damage an LCD. So it's likely a failed screen or graphics if there is nothing even at boot time, not Win 10.

You can add a plug-in graphics card even if a desktop has built in graphics, though there are maybe 3 common types of socket now, if it's an older PC.  Amazingly my laptop takes a graphics board, choice of about 8 models, using three different GPUs originally. I bought a dead related model (for replacement case) for £10 and nicely got an upgrade for Graphics as the scrap one had next better GPU and x4 Graphics RAM. Today you are lucky if the laptop doesn't have a glued battery and soldered RAM. Some expensive skinny laptops are really overpriced x86 Tablets with Keyboard. The "All in One" PCs are horrid as they are really a laptop with external keyboard and no battery. With a real laptop you get a free UPS for power cuts.


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## REBerg

Ray McCarthy said:


> I keep a copy of Linux on a USB stick for testing ... You only need a cheap 16G stick. Linux Mint 32bit (works on 64bit CPUs) and Mate Desktop rather than Cinnamon (which needs better 3D/GPU support).
> 
> Anything after 2003 should boot from USB. I have DVDs and CDs to boot older computers, and also used to have a floppy with minimal Linux OS and USB driver to boot a specific Linix from USB on old computers with no boot option for USB.
> 
> It's possible to blow a fuse / damage some CRT monitors with wrong graphics settings (last did it on an ACT Sirius 1 in 1981) but not to damage an LCD. So it's likely a failed screen or graphics if there is nothing even at boot time, not Win 10.
> 
> You can add a plug-in graphics card even if a desktop has built in graphics, though there are maybe 3 common types of socket now, if it's an older PC.  Amazingly my laptop takes a graphics board, choice of about 8 models, using three different GPUs originally. I bought a dead related model (for replacement case) for £10 and nicely got an upgrade for Graphics as the scrap one had next better GPU and x4 Graphics RAM. Today you are lucky if the laptop doesn't have a glued battery and soldered RAM. Some expensive skinny laptops are really overpriced x86 Tablets with Keyboard. The "All in One" PCs are horrid as they are really a laptop with external keyboard and no battery. With a real laptop you get a free UPS for power cuts.


Had my sister-in-law given me a heads-up before we traveled to her home, some 100 miles distant from ours, I would have brought some type of PC crash cart, at least a spare monitor, along. As things are, it is sometimes best to let a patient go. I didn't volunteer to bring the rig home with me.
She didn't seem overly distraught at the prospect of getting a new computer. I didn't have the heart to tell her it would come with Windows 10.
New hardware should be compatible with the new OS (right? ), so things will work out for her.


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## Ray McCarthy

REBerg said:


> New hardware should be compatible with the new OS


Better still, Win7 or Linux will work on brand new hardware.


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## REBerg

Ray McCarthy said:


> Better still, Win7 or Linux will work on brand new hardware.


Win 7 would be great if she can find it. Even the concept of Linux would put her in the same condition as her computer. 

Speaking of new computers, have you seen this little beauty? Watch the commercial, then tell me you don't want one.

Revolt2: iBUYPOWER® Gaming PC

I'm not a gamer, but I'm guessing even the low-end version would be more than adequate for office, image editing and video streaming.


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## Ray McCarthy

REBerg said:


> Win 7 would be great if she can find it.


Easy to buy OEM licences. Forget buying it in a shop or with a Machine.


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## Dave

So, what is the current advice from you on all this subject?

I think I have until July to upgrade from 8.1 to 10 for free. My son has exactly the same laptop as I do, bought on the same day. His did the automatic update without even asking him a few weeks ago. It did crash half-way through but completed later and he has had no problems; no horror stories. He says it is much better with the "Start" back and without the mobile phone apps lookalike screen. I don't have time to create any problems with my laptop which is working perfectly fine at the moment. I'd rather manage the upgrade at a convenient time than have it start automatically at some time that I really need it.


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## Ray McCarthy

*How do people "re-install" this "free upgrade"?*

I have install media for all my OS on all my PCs / Laptops.

If you had enough disk space:

Create cloned copy of existing OS
Install copy of Linux Mint 
Check all three OS can boot (inc both copies of Windows)
Then let one copy of Windows "upgrade" to the Win 10 

OR 
Keep using Win 8.1
OR
Install Win7
Or Migrate to Linux Mint.

Or DO NOTHING and migrate to Linux Mint or a new Windows in a few years time.


Don't be pressured into changing to something inferior that is a recipe for disaster (subsequent forced updates and services charges and spies on you and no re-install) simply because it seems to be free.


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## REBerg

My solution to the problems of Windows Update has been to permanently turn it off. Experts caution against it, but I haven't any problems so far (knock on wood).
I formerly put Update on full automatic for downloads and installing and found that I was spending a lot of computer time waiting for these to complete, then more time restoring the machines when things went sideways. With Win10, both install and restore options, from what I've read, have been taken away from users, leaving them at the mercy of MS technical support.
I'm keeping my Win7 rather than taking a one-way, possibly problematic trip with Win10.


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## Droflet

Apple anyone? I don't know about you but I've just about had a gut full of microsofs BS.


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## REBerg

Apple is increasing its market share, possibly due MS blunders with Win8 and Win10.
People looking for high-end laptops can find comparable prices for Macs and PCs with similar specs. Those with smaller budgets and lesser performance requirements would find better bang for their bucks with PCs and find ways to cope with MS.


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## Ray McCarthy

REBerg said:


> Apple is increasing its market share, possibly due MS blunders with Win8 and Win10.


A few but hardly at all and in a shrinking market. Also many Analysts include Apple Tablet sales in PC/Laptop category! The Apple "growth" is probably mostly fuelled by a mix of very well off people (you pay 30% to 100% premium) and people with iPhones.

I predict that Mac OS will be replaced by iOS and we already have a iOS "Mac Air style" laptop, a big tablet with special pen and keyboard. Apple ditched their Server hardware and "Computer" from their name. Also they get tiny revenue from Mac products compare to the pure consumer gadgets. Someone remarked that the only reason they make Macs is so visitors don't see Dell Workstations when they visit Apple. 



REBerg said:


> Those with smaller budgets and lesser performance requirements would find better bang for their bucks with PCs and find ways to cope with MS.


Performance is irrelevant. Gamers want the most and a Mac is no use to them. Today you only need Windows if locked into Sage Accounts or other "legacy" apps that don't have a Linux native version or don't work under WINE on Linux. Linux Mint with mate desktop is EASIER for users of Win98, XP, Vista, Windows 7 than using Win 8.x or Win 10!


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## REBerg

Ray McCarthy said:


> A few but hardly at all and in a shrinking market. Also many Analysts include Apple Tablet sales in PC/Laptop category! The Apple "growth" is probably mostly fuelled by a mix of very well off people (you pay 30% to 100% premium) and people with iPhones.
> 
> I predict that Mac OS will be replaced by iOS and we already have a iOS "Mac Air style" laptop, a big tablet with special pen and keyboard. Apple ditched their Server hardware and "Computer" from their name. Also they get tiny revenue from Mac products compare to the pure consumer gadgets. Someone remarked that the only reason they make Macs is so visitors don't see Dell Workstations when they visit Apple.
> 
> 
> Performance is irrelevant. Gamers want the most and a Mac is no use to them. Today you only need Windows if locked into Sage Accounts or other "legacy" apps that don't have a Linux native version or don't work under WINE on Linux. Linux Mint with mate desktop is EASIER for users of Win98, XP, Vista, Windows 7 than using Win 8.x or Win 10!


I don't doubt that Linux Mint would be an excellent replacement for all Windows flavors, but we're talking consumers here, not heavyduty DIY PC enthusiasts. Users who see their computers as appliances tend to go with the Devil they know.
Linux is a whole new world to average computer users, and the steepness of the learning curve is a relative thing. I experimented with Ubuntu when I built my first desktop rig but eventually decided to cough up the dough for an OEM 64-bit Win7 disc. That's mostly laziness on my part, but time also becomes a factor.
I remember Dell. We've got a few dusty Dell desktops and laptops on shelves around the house. They were the way to go when I moved up from my Tandy TRS-80 Model 1.


----------



## Brian G Turner

I found Apple's OS to be an interesting learning curve in itself. Using an application wasn't too much of a problem - but once you start trying to work with their File Manager life stops being so simple. 

Also, when I bought my iMac many years ago, it had a single brightness setting - blinding bright.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

REBerg said:


> but we're talking consumers here, not heavyduty DIY PC enthusiasts.


No harder than reinstalling Windows and EASIER if you have no Windows disk. Total pain to re-install an "upgraded" Windows.

Download Linux to USB stick on new Computer / laptop. Linux Mint with Mate Desktop. The 32bit version recommended for compatibility unless you are setting up a server, it allows all the RAM.

Boot from USB. It's functional WITHOUT installing!

Check it all works, if not search or just reboot with USB stick to Windows.

Select Install to hard drive if happy.

Ubuntu is a pain compared to Linux Mint + Mate (silly Unity GUI), which is just like XP etc, except easier, if you select Redmond Theme!
All the "answers" when you get stuck are on first few hits on Internet Search.  I'm using a better File browser (F3 toggles a second pane like old Win3.1 File manager) and the same Email, text editor, File transfer, Browser, Office Programs, Calibre etc as on Windows, but native Linux version. It's LESS of a learning curve than Win 8.x or Win 10 for Vista/Win7 users and less learning for Win9x, Win2K and XP users than Vista/Win7. Many Steam games now work on Linux and most DOS games via "Dosbox".

I still have XP on one 2002 Laptop and one 2006 Destop. Multiboot of DOS, Win3.11, Win98 and Win2K on a 2000 Laptop, for occasional legacy work.

If in doubt, swap the Hard Drive and then it's easy to go back.
Backup all data and Fonts first (Windows True Type Fonts work on ALL versions of Linux and no harder than installing them between PCs running Windows).

It's only some business users that need Windows and many of them are sticking with win7. It's easier now for a Windows User to move to Linux than Apple OSX (which requires a Mac, though there is a pointless fudge "Hackintosh" which Apple claims contravenes copyright on OS X as it's solely sold for Apple hardware).


----------



## REBerg

Brian Turner said:


> I found Apple's OS to be an interesting learning curve in itself. Using an application wasn't too much of a problem - but once you start trying to work with their File Manager life stops being so simple.
> 
> Also, when I bought my iMac many years ago, it had a single brightness setting - blinding bright.


My slightly technophobic wife has walked into that light and converted to Apple a few years back. She's on her second laptop and would never go back to PCs.
I'm in no danger of joining her. The Apple OS interface is just different enough from Windows to be annoying. My fingers slide around on the track pad like a drunken ice skater.
The machines are attractive, simple and reliable. When something does go wrong (and it does), the all-purpose cure is rebooting. When that doesn't work, users don't seem to have a lot of options other than making a trip to nearest Apple store.
Long live the PC!


----------



## Dave

For my course I we need to use Access. We have absolutely no choice in this over other database managers. There is one guy with a Mac who is using Access 2016/Parallels 11/Windows 10 on his Mac and having a total nightmare with it. Nothing is compatible even though it says it is and he has spent money because it said so. This is why I'm a stick-with-what-I-know kind of guy. Even so, the functionality of different versions of Access are totally different (I'm using 2013.)

I'll leave going to Windows 10 a little longer, only because I believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Dave said:


> We have absolutely no choice in this over other database managers.


Access is junk compared to MS SQL, even nearly 20 years ago I was porting Access to MS SQL, pretty easy. A bit harder to port Access to Oracle or MySQL, but MS is even porting MS SQL to Linux.
MS over 10 years ago started giving away a free version of their SQL for people to migrate Access to.
If you are using ODBC to connect the client application to Access, then no source code is needed. You can pretty easily migrate.


Dave said:


> I'll leave going to Windows 10 a little longer, only because I believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.


Not changing anything is favourite.
On a scale of 1 to 9 where bigger is harder, Migrating Accounts package is 11 and Migrating a backend database is 1 to 5 depending on how complicated it is. Loads of tools, so replicating the tables, columns, indexes and then Export / Import of data is so easy compared to re-implementing Cobol or Fortran (where you have source) to C# or Java or C++ etc. You don't even need any documentation as the tools will reveal the tables, columns, indexes etc used.


----------



## REBerg




----------



## REBerg




----------



## Ursa major

Ray McCarthy said:


> No harder than reinstalling Windows


Which is something most users never do (and would be terrified of doing if they had to). The terror doesn't depend on whether or not the process is, easy or not, but is engendered by two thoughts: 1) reinstalling the operating system sounds like a big and complex task (even if only for the machine itself); 2) it sounds as if one would be up a certain creek without a paddle if anything went wrong during the reinstallation process.



Droflet said:


> Apple anyone?


How does the Apple version of Update work? Can one pick and choose -- as I do with Windows (I let the machine tell me what updates are available and apply them when I want to, i.e. not when I'm doing something else that has to be completed urgently**) -- or is the process all done in the background (as will happen, without remedy, in Windows 10)?


** - It isn't the updating -- download and initial installation -- that's the problem. The problem is the forced restart that caused me to lose some edits*** when the PC closed down Word without warning. It happened only once -- I changed the Update setting  -- but moving (or having to move, with Windows 10) to a scheme where it becomes inevitable does not fill me with joy.

*** - I try to plan my edits before I change the document, but often I see a better way when typing, a better way that evolved (and may have required changes elsewhere) and so is hard to reproduce exactly from (my) memory. And unless one is auto-saving once a minute, things can get lost forever.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Ursa major said:


> 2) it sounds as if one would be up a certain creek without a paddle if anything went wrong during the reinstallation process.


One of the hidden costs of so called "Upgrade" to Windows 10. MS upgrades have always been REALLY poor compared to a clean install.

How does anyone recover from band Win 10 update or re-install Win 10? ALL HDDs do fail. Newer ones don't last as long as older ones due to higher density. I know the solution, but I'd bet 99%+ of people with this "rammed down your throat" so called upgrade don't. People want a better XP  / Win 7, not an experiment on GUI, privacy theft and a change to Windows as a Service (with subscription like Adobe) instead of a product.

I'd go back to Windows if I could buy a sensible version. 

Back up to external storage of all your data ought to be regular, but now with encrypted file storage and disk, an absolute. My daughter's laptop died and I couldn’t read the disk in another Windows PC, nor could I boot from it as the hardware was too different. Fortunately with an external USB - SATA adaptor I was able to read all her data via Linux! I then put it on a regular portable USB HDD and she was able to drag and drop to her new laptop.

Unlike Windows, using a USB stick you can try out the exact "distro" of Linux on your own machine with no risk at all BEFORE installing/upgrade (which can be a alongside). Such USB sticks can be a tool to access Windows files on a laptop that boots from USB, but not from the disk, and make a backup of them if the problem is just the Windows System rather than the hard Drive. Making the USB stick is now harder than downloading anything else to a USB stick. I've also used a micro SD card in a USB card reader as if a USB stick (one from a camera or phone will work, but the process does wipe the USB stick / SD card).  You can use a writeable DVD, USB HDD, CF card etc too, if the target can boot from it.


----------



## J Riff

This is the stuff to learn, wot Ray say. It's worth it, even if you forget most of it, because you will have a backup usb/card OS. Plugging it in brings up this screen or that, and it isn't too difficult from there. Linux can save yer bacon - it's free and will boot without installing as described. Clean install of Win7 - really runs better than an upgrade, check. I've learned some tricks in this very thread, and I'm sitting in a coffeeshop where people have tried to upgrade to Win10 and had muchos problemos. 7 is a good, lucky number. I have no intention of upgrading past 7, and XP on the non-online PC.
 Now to find an external SATA HD connector. Then no crash can trash the invaluable rubbish I am preserving on various HDs, schticks, cards and discs.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Windows Stats (only computers using Internet*):

Majority is STILL Windows 7, despite "free" Win 10
XP refuses to die with similar market share to Win 10 or Win 8.x (likely under-reported), that's not changing.
Enterprise not keen on Win 8.x and less so on Win 10 (corporate privacy, poor legacy compatibility, (even WINE on Linux is more compatible than Win 8 & Win 10 with older Windows Applications!), high costs of maintenance and migration.), though Enterprise use of Windows 7 is declining. The article misleadingly suggests Enterprise moving to Win 10.

ALMOST ALL the growth is free upgrades to Consumer, with minority being new PCs!


> we know that PC sales are slowing to fewer than 300 million a year





> even if every PC sold this year runs Windows 10 – which won't happen, because lots will be Macs  [or Linux**]– the new OS is likely to score only about 10 per cent more market share. Remember, also, that smartphones are selling at a rate of a billion a year, most on Android.



Windows 7's grip on the enterprise desktop is loosening

Windows 10 traffic to US government web sites isn't at all representative.

[* Very many XP PCs,  XP ATMs, XP cash registers, XP instrument controllers etc are not on the Internet. Almost all Win 8.x PCs are]
[** Other stats show Enterprise migrating to Linux, already majority of servers are Linux, or "Thin Clients" / "Web Clients"]

*EDIT*
Comments point out flaws in article and have interesting views
Windows 7's grip on the enterprise desktop is loosening • The Register Forums


----------



## Phyrebrat

If Windows OS was a car, you'd take it back and never put your life in danger again.

If everyday people are not going to get educated and make their own PC (and in these simplified app-life days, who does?), and want something to work out of the box, I'd say Apple. I converted a while back and have not missed anything at all. It's simpler, cleaner, and doesn't come with a load of disingenuous promises and suggestions. Just know you're going to pay over the average price, and that they're a bit cliquey and your life will be so much more stress free.

I'm forced to use some PC laptops at schools. I hate the updates. They start in the middle of me showing videos, or when I try to log out and turn the laptop off, it does it then and says 'don't turn off till these 45 updates have installed'. And these schools I work in can't afford flashy laptops whose batteries actually work... So I have to leave the damn thing on while it goes for the PC equivalent of a spa weekend.

How many people who own cars know the inside and out of it, enough to maintain it without the need of a mechanic?

A laptop running Windows feels far too demanding of my time. I want it to do what I want to do, not the other way round.

Our choice of IT is as limited and lacking as our political party choices in the UK. 

pH


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Phyrebrat said:


> I'd say Apple. I converted a while back and have not missed anything at all.


Won't run any of my Engineering applications and much else, Windows and Linux do.
Apple: Email, Internet, programming for OSX and iOS, wordprocessing, Video and photo editing. It's very limited. * If what you do is 100% covered by my list, then OK.* Except I don't believe Apple has any long term commitment to Mac or OSX. They already brought out a "Mac Air" like Apple equivalent to MS Surface with a nice stylus and keyboard running iOS. That's where the money is for them. They probably get less than 1% profit from Macs compared to all their product range.


----------



## SilentRoamer

Phyrebrat said:


> I'm forced to use some PC laptops at schools. I hate the updates. They start in the middle of me showing videos, or when I try to log out and turn the laptop off, it does it then and says 'don't turn off till these 45 updates have installed'.
> pH



This is nothing to do with Windows though - this is bad Group Policy Management at a network level. It's really not hard on most networks to schedule updates or disable them if limited users are logged on.

Your network Administrator should really be able to fix this fairly easily. I mean even if this isn't a proper server environment he could just use local Group Policy - either way this should not be a problem in schools.


----------



## SilentRoamer

Ray McCarthy said:


> They probably get less than 1% profit from Macs compared to all their product range.



I think someone said it in this thread - can't have Windows PC's running in Apples shops... Walk in to see Dell or HP logos!


----------



## Phyrebrat

SilentRoamer said:


> ...either way this should not be a problem in schools.



I agree 100%. Unfortunately, I work in under-funded, under-staffed, inner city schools populated by marginalised students (and teachers for that matter  ). I think I saw a network administrator... Once ... (But Ofsted shot him/her )

pH


----------



## Ray McCarthy

SilentRoamer said:


> I think someone said it in this thread


Me, but I was only quoting someone more expert. I hadn't thought of it.  They could just buy Apple stickers?


----------



## Ray McCarthy

SilentRoamer said:


> This is nothing to do with Windows though - this is bad Group Policy Management at a network level.


Yes. The biggest group I set up (of Windows PCs) was 450. Login was remotely disabled after a certain time in the evening and the College technician would make sure the PCs all on and turn of screens. Then he went home. The MS SMS on the server then added or updated applications, windows etc.


----------



## pambaddeley

Phyrebrat said:


> I agree 100%. Unfortunately, I work in under-funded, under-staffed, inner city schools populated by marginalised students (and teachers for that matter  ). I think I saw a network administrator... Once ... (But Ofsted shot him/her )
> 
> pH


Teacher friend said the school tech bod knew a darn sight less than she did.


----------



## Lew Rockwell Fan

Brian Turner said:


> There are old software programs - especially a couple of old computer games I like to play - that I'm concerned won't run properly in Windows 10. There's certainly been issues running some even in Windows 7 - not least Age of Empires II, which is by Microsoft!


Assuming reasonable hardware, and that you have a legitimate Windows that runs your legacy software well, that sort of issue is most reliably addressed by using a VM with the Windows in an OS that itself has a light enough footprint to leave the VM sufficient resources. If you have an over-the-top badass desktop, you could do that with the newest, shiniest, gimmickiest, resource-hogging Windows. For anyone else, a light linux, like Lubuntu, with the older Win in VirtualBox is a better bet. Use the VirtuaBox direct from VirtualBox though, not the one in the 'buntu repos. I'd recommend gdebi, which IS in the repo, as an easy way to install the Virtualbox from 
Virtualbox.


----------



## Mirannan

I haven't actually tried it, but possibly another way to create a dual-boot PC might be to get yourself a big SD or CF card (64gb ones are now around £12) and use that as the boot drive with the extra OS on it. This does require the machine to have a suitable card slot; OTOH, many desktops and most laptops have such a slot.


----------



## SilentRoamer

Lew Rockwell Fan said:


> Assuming reasonable hardware, and that you have a legitimate Windows that runs your legacy software well, that sort of issue is most reliably addressed by using a VM with the Windows in an OS that itself has a light enough footprint to leave the VM sufficient resources. If you have an over-the-top badass desktop, you could do that with the newest, shiniest, gimmickiest, resource-hogging Windows. For anyone else, a light linux, like Lubuntu, with the older Win in VirtualBox is a better bet. Use the VirtuaBox direct from VirtualBox though, not the one in the 'buntu repos. I'd recommend gdebi, which IS in the repo, as an easy way to install the Virtualbox from
> Virtualbox.



Windows 7 Pro has Windows XP mode which is a native XP VM. Works well for old games and applications.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

SilentRoamer said:


> Windows 7 Pro has Windows XP mode which is a native XP VM


Which is a bloated waste of ram and CPU compared to have keeping the old APIs. Vista/Win7 replacement APIs are SLOWER for 2D windows and optimised for gaming. Stupid design. Windows 7 is just a Vista service pack.

MS has lost it increasingly since 2003.  *Latest stupidity for Win 10*
Windows 10 debuts Blue QR Code of Death – and why malware will love it

If they know why it crashed, tell you on the crash screen, not a website using a new attack vector malware writers can use (fake BSOD screens with different QR code)!
Phones ought to display full URL of a QR code and ask if you want to load it. Till they do, it's madness to scan a QR code.
Similarly "short" URLs are an evil obfuscation created by stupid 140 limit of Twitter (Presumably originally SMS compatible?) which is now being ditched.


----------



## SilentRoamer

Ray McCarthy said:


> Which is a bloated waste of ram and CPU compared to have keeping the old APIs. Vista/Win7 replacement APIs are SLOWER for 2D windows and optimised for gaming. Stupid design. Windows 7 is just a Vista service pack.



Yeah but most modern hardware just isn't going to have problems. I mean most entry level is i3 now which can virtualise XP irrespective of inefficiencies. Add to that faster SATA's (SSD's especially) and better graphics integration and it compounds the result.

Although I would rather run XP on the hardware it was designed for - often we have to do this especially for old C&C machines in old warehouses.


----------



## Lew Rockwell Fan

Mirannan said:


> I haven't actually tried it, but possibly another way to create a dual-boot PC might be to get yourself a big SD or CF card (64gb ones are now around £12) and use that as the boot drive with the extra OS on it. This does require the machine to have a suitable card slot; OTOH, many desktops and most laptops have such a slot.


Indeed, good point.  Dual booting, of course, is a totally foolproof way to do it. It does mean you have to reboot to switch back and forth between OSs of course, which you don't with a VM. But it is way more efficient on resource usage and compatibility is gauranteed. You don't have to use external media. You can dual boot from your internal hard drive if there is room on it. Unless the computer is extremely old you can probably boot from just about any media you can attach and read, cds, thumb drives,
usb sata drives, internal drives, whatever.



Ray McCarthy said:


> MS has lost it increasingly since 2003.


I pretty much agree with everything Ray said, altough he obviously keeps better track of what MS is doing than I do. I have a Win partition of this machine, because it came with it, and I haven't needed the space yet. I'm not a frothing at the mouth hate the rich type, and I think PCs are about 15 years further along than they would have been without Gates' biz smarts, and I actually admire him.  It almost pains me to admit it, but Windows sucks like a galactic black hole, imo. It never was very good and just seems to keep getting worse.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

SilentRoamer said:


> eah but most modern hardware just isn't going to have problems.


I've no qualm against running an Isolated XP VM on say Linux on Linux for test. But making Vista/Win7 incompatible with many XP programs was stupid. A native program on Win7 is more secure than running an entire copy of XP on a VM. A host OS CAN be infected via VM today, esp. the MS version used for XP on Win7. It was a bizarre design decision. Not fussing about win9x programs would have been fine. 
Even Linux now can run NATIVE in WINE, Windows programs that now only work in a VM in Vista/7/8/10. native is not just hugely less RAM (up to 4G less!) but up to x4 performance and safer. Most hardware I/O isn't virtualised on anyone's VM.

They even downgraded EXISTING or new programs performance (that work native on Win7 or 8) that used traditional Win API for forms rather than Direct 3D APIs.


----------



## Lew Rockwell Fan

Ray McCarthy said:


> . . . Linux now can run NATIVE in WINE, Windows programs


We should warn the unwary though, that it doesn't always work off the bat, and when it doesn't, it can sometimes be a lot more work to get this approach to work than either VM or multibooting.



Ray McCarthy said:


> . . . A host OS CAN be infected via VM today . . .
> 
> . . . native is . . . safer . . .


Don't go to any trouble for it, but if you happen to have handy links on that subject or can suggest keywords to search, I'd like to know more about both the facts and reasoning behind those 2 statements. Both surprise me.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Lew Rockwell Fan said:


> I'd like to know more about both the facts and reasoning behind those 2 statements.


A Win 7 or Win 8 with all updates is in theory less vulnerable than XP (no security updates), so running the XP program on Win 7 or 8 is safer than running it on XP.
The VM XP is safer than native XP, for the host OS, vs an OS on another partition. But various ways now exist to compromise host via client on VM, it not as likely as XP getting hosed.

OTH most infections are due to services running that should be disabled, having javascript on by default (I use noscript), Flash on by default (I have it activate on demand), Java enabled (Can't remember last time I needed it in a browser), PDF in browser,  or social engineering; opening bad attachments, installing fake codecs, adding stupid tool bars, clicking on spam links etc.


----------



## SilentRoamer

Ray the biggest problem at the moment is phishing emails with javascript executable. End users click them and hey presto encryption software starts encrypting everything it can see and access on a network.

Of course Program Restrictions at GPO level to stop executables being run from temp Windows directories quickly fixes this issue. <Encryption malware is a big headache because without either 1. the decryption key or 2. a backup, then you can wave goodbye to your files.


----------



## Mirannan

I'm showing my age, but I occasionally regret that Commodore was so protective of its Amiga designs and IP; much more so than IBM was of its PC, for example. Why? Simply put, at the time the Amiga was maybe ten years ahead in terms of design and software.

If development of that standard had proceeded at the breakneck pace that the PC standard has, where would we be now?


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Mirannan said:


> Amiga was maybe ten years ahead in terms of design and software.


The IBM PC was done out of a catalogue, the only IP was BIOS and DOS. It was essentially a 1976 type of computer. It and the Intel x86 family (till 386 came out) kept back "personal computer" development for 10 years. DOS was a reverse engineered version of DR CP/M (80), easily ported as the 8086/8088 wasn't a real 16 bit computer. It was so similar to 8088 / 8085 / Z80 to software (evil 64K segments) that the Intel 8080 to 8086 translation tool for machine code pretty much worked for most CP/M  or 8080 code. DR had CP/M 86.
See Victor 9000 / ACT Sirius one for even the competing 1981 8088 / 8086 based hardware. (no detail on wikipedia). Designed by Chuck Peddle, who had also designed the first Commodore Pet.
*I had a Sirius 1* in late 1981. Unlike the then text only IBM PC with nasty box, no built in clock, only 180k or 360K floppies (optional extra), printer, serial extra, no sound except beep.

800 x 400 mono graphics
Flatter Anti-glare screen instead of shiny goldfish bowl PC screen
Built in GPIB, Audio, Parallel, serial, clock calendar (none of that on PC except by option cards)
1.2 or 2.4M byte floppies with HDD option (no HDD option on PC till XT)
Nicer case instead of giant metal box.
Loads of computers incompatible with PC were "10 years" better than PC!


----------



## Ray McCarthy

SilentRoamer said:


> Ray the biggest problem at the moment is phishing emails with javascript executable. End users click them and hey presto encryption software starts encrypting everything it can see and access on a network.


Well, yes. The REAL issue, and better than security or AV software is user training!



Lew Rockwell Fan said:


> , but if you happen to have handy links on that subject or can suggest keywords to search


There are LOADS of earlier ones in VMware, Vbox and MS VM. (All patched if you are on "latest" versions)
This is just the most recent, that most people haven't patched yet:
How to not get pwned on Windows: Don't run any virtual machines, open any web pages, Office docs, hyperlinks ...


> A malicious app running in a virtual machine can exploit this flaw to drill down to the host server, execute code on the machine, and interfere with the system and other VMs. Which is bad.


----------



## Lew Rockwell Fan

Thanks for responding, Ray.





Ray McCarthy said:


> . . . The VM XP is safer than native XP . . .


OK, that's what I'd expect. I guess I misunderstood your earlier post. It seemed to me you were saying the opposite.



Ray McCarthy said:


> There are LOADS of earlier ones in VMware, Vbox . . .


In the Windows versions only? I don't really keep up with Windows, as I no longer have any reason to use it.  As a practical matter, I stay updated, but I am curious about this. 'Nixes tend to be locked down tighter that Windows (leading to a lot of permission issue cussing among newbs), although there is a lot of variation among distros. Have you seen anything like this that applied to 'nix versions of VM managers?


----------



## mosaix

Dropbox to stop supporting XP PCs as from August...


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Win 10 nagware interferes with weather report
Microsoft's Windows 10 nagware storms live TV weather forecast


----------



## Ray McCarthy

mosaix said:


> Dropbox to stop supporting XP PCs as from August...


It's a service on the Web, it doesn't really need ANY OS support, just a browser!


----------



## Ursa major

Ray McCarthy said:


> Win 10 nagware interferes with weather report
> Microsoft's Windows 10 nagware storms live TV weather forecast


I expect that the software didn't want anyone to notice that the... er... Outlook was gloomy....


----------



## Ray McCarthy

$10,000 Compensation for unwanted windows 10
'I urge everyone to fight back' – woman wins $10k from Microsoft over Windows 10 misery


----------



## The Bluestocking

Ray McCarthy said:


> $10,000 Compensation for unwanted windows 10
> 'I urge everyone to fight back' – woman wins $10k from Microsoft over Windows 10 misery



My Windows 8 laptop is still flashing me the "get your Windows 10 now before forever losing it as a free installment" nonsense. UGH!


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Install this as MS is now automatically installing W10 on many computers
GWX control panel
Ultimate Outsider - Software Downloads
It's used by many businesses.
I've tried it. Quite simple.


----------



## The Bluestocking

Ray McCarthy said:


> Install this as MS is now automatically installing W10 on many computers
> GWX control panel
> Ultimate Outsider - Software Downloads
> It's used by many businesses.
> I've tried it. Quite simple.



Do I download the installer or the standalone? There are two links offered.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

The Bluestocking said:


> Do I download the installer or the standalone?


The Standalone is complete, that's what I downloaded, I think. it can then be copied to other computers. I imagine, but don't know for sure, that the other _may_ copy it (once) from the Internet when run on each PC. Different people have different definitions of "installer" and "standalone". Sometimes an "Installer" is a complete executable that sets up a program and "standalone" means a Zip file you unpack at desired location.

It shouldn't make any difference once you have configured it.


----------



## REBerg

Ray McCarthy said:


> $10,000 Compensation for unwanted windows 10
> 'I urge everyone to fight back' – woman wins $10k from Microsoft over Windows 10 misery


A good argument for blocking Windows Update, shutting down your computer between use sessions, even severing your internet connection whenever it's not needed.
Thanks for the paranoia, Microsoft. It's a winning marketing tactic. It should be creating a real demand for air gapping.


----------



## thaddeus6th

REBerg, I've got two 'recommended' updates which seem designed to install nagware. When the time comes to change machines, I may go for a Chromebook (a few people have suggested that) to evade Microsoft's nagging.


----------



## REBerg

thaddeus6th said:


> REBerg, I've got two 'recommended' updates which seem designed to install nagware. When the time comes to change machines, I may go for a Chromebook (a few people have suggested that) to evade Microsoft's nagging.


More evidence that Microsoft has shot itself in the foot (maybe both feet )with it's aggressive Windows 10 upgrade approach. Users are completely opting out of the OS.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

thaddeus6th said:


> I may go for a Chromebook


Purely a cloud terminal with Google Spyware and very limited "apps".
The only laptop alternatives really are a Linux Distro on a PC or Mac Laptop or Mac OS on Mac (very expensive)


----------



## Judderman

If you have Windows 8 already then Windows 10 is worth moving to. The windows layout is a good mix of the old and windows 8 styles.


----------



## Vince W

thaddeus6th said:


> REBerg, I've got two 'recommended' updates which seem designed to install nagware. When the time comes to change machines, I may go for a Chromebook (a few people have suggested that) to evade Microsoft's nagging.





Ray McCarthy said:


> Purely a cloud terminal with Google Spyware and very limited "apps".
> The only laptop alternatives really are a Linux Distro on a PC or Mac Laptop or Mac OS on Mac (very expensive)



If you are new to Linux I would recommend Linux Mint. It offers a very Windows-like experience.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Vince W said:


> If you are new to Linux I would recommend Linux Mint. It offers a very Windows-like experience.


+ on that
But with MINT desktop, some stuff turned off and the "Redmond" theme. Older computers need the logon screen slide show disabled in the Control Panel.
*Same Programs I used on Windows that have Linux versions:*
LibreOffice / Open office
Thunderbird email
FileZilla FTP
HexChat = Windows XChat or Y Chat
Scratch
Skype
Calibre
Gimp
Celestia
Stellarium
Eagle
Inkscape
Audacity
PuTTY
(and others)

Windows Programs I have working on WINE:
Kindle App, Digiguide, Orbitron, Notepad++ and more.

Many other Windows & Mac programs have equivalents.  PDF view / edit / create, eBook editing, DVD player, media players etc
My SCSI based Epson Scanner just works, no drivers needed to be searched for.
Brother Printer driver on the Brother website.


----------



## J Riff

The blue update screen appears every day here, usually after logging outs Outlook/Hotmail. I never leave the PC online, and would wipe the drive and reinstall if it ever tried to Win10 me. Am I safe? Can I sue someone if I go to the loo and it upgrades?


----------



## REBerg

J Riff said:


> The blue update screen appears every day here, usually after logging outs Outlook/Hotmail. I never leave the PC online, and would wipe the drive and reinstall if it ever tried to Win10 me. Am I safe? Can I sue someone if I go to the loo and it upgrades?


I wonder if someone out there is selling Windows Update alarm software that sounds a siren whenever Update opens.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

REBerg said:


> someone out there is selling Windows Update alarm software


the GWX download control panel stops it and it's free.


----------



## Ursa major

The Bluestocking said:


> My Windows 8 laptop is still flashing me the "get your Windows 10 now before forever losing it as a free installment" nonsense.


It's becoming more insistent at the moment, popping up several times a day, rather than just once (or, sometimes, twice) per the laptop (W8.1) being switched on. (It isn't as if I haven't been "hiding" updates that talk about collecting data, etc., which are all, I believe, associated with Windows 10 roll-out. )

So far -- but I can't see it lasting -- things are nowhere near as bad on my Windows 7 all-in-1: I rarely see any of the pop-ups.


----------



## REBerg

I'm running W7 on two machines -- laptop and home-built desktop; and Vista ("service-packed" to pretty much W7) on another laptop and another home-built desktop. No forced W10 upgrade problems.
I turned off Update on all of my computers long ago because they were time-consuming and frequently caused problems. Maybe I'm living on the edge in terms of security issues, but Microsoft seems to be a bigger headache than potential hackers.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Windows 10, nagging gets worse. Windows 10 only benefits MS, and free installation doesn't mean free!

Microsoft's Windows 10 nagware goes FULL SCREEN in final push • The Register Forums

Microsoft's Windows 10 nagware goes FULL SCREEN in final push


----------



## Brian G Turner

When Windows 10 was first released, I presumed I'd simply wait until towards the end of the free period before upgrading - allow the bugs to be ironed-out.

However, after one of my daughters accidentally installed it, it just looks like a re-skinned Windows 7, but built for greater integration with Windows mobile devices and Xbox One - none of which applies to us.

With the additional danger of old software not working, I just don't see any benefits to outweigh the risks.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Brian Turner said:


> I just don't see any benefits to outweigh the risks.


There are  no benefits, it is less compatible than Win7, and also it sends EVERYTHING to Microsoft. It will be subscription based.

It's more a re-skinned Win8, which is inferior to Win7 in some aspects.


----------



## Ursa major

Ray McCarthy said:


> Windows 10, nagging gets worse. Windows 10 only benefits MS, and free installation doesn't mean free!
> 
> Microsoft's Windows 10 nagware goes FULL SCREEN in final push • The Register Forums
> 
> Microsoft's Windows 10 nagware goes FULL SCREEN in final push


They tried to get me to download the update that would do this today, but I now check the updates that don't say "fixing security issues" and saw what it was.

From now on, I think I'm going to check all the updates, which will, I suppose, lead them to descend to outright lying about what the next W10-related update is supposed to do.


----------



## thaddeus6th

Ursa, outright lying may be criminal (not sure how the law stands).

For me, Microsoft is the best salesman for Apple right now.


----------



## Ursa major

thaddeus6th said:


> For me, Microsoft is the best salesman for Apple right now.


I must admit that the next time I buy a computer, laptop or PC (depending which of my laptop and PC pack up first), I might consider an Apple. But if I do choose another Windows machine, I'll be following up all the advice available on how to make W10 less of Microsoft's spy in my home. Having to do that is one of the three things that are preventing me from downloading W10 in the first place, the others being lack of control over when upgrades are downloaded and applied, and worries about whether the supplied W10 drivers will work with the hardware I have.

The downside of moving to Apple is that I tend to copy across all my data to a new machine, and I have no idea how easily this might be done with a new Apple (given that I want to maintain my rather complex directory structure AND be able to use my external hard drive which, obviously, contains only files and folders produced in a Windows environment).


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## Ray McCarthy

Ursa major said:


> I might consider an Apple. But if I do choose another Windows machine,


Linux Mint with Mate desktop is a very viable option. Easier and MUCH cheaper for windows users than Mac + MacOS, which Apple has very little long term commitment to. 
Read/writes Windows, Apple, UNIX, Solaris and Linux file systems.

All options let you have whatever directory structure you want. Only Windows and Linux reliably work with FAT, FAT32, NTFS and NTFS2 file systems that Windows uses. Mac has less applications than Windows or Linux and costs 20% to 40% more for similar spec hardware. Mac is much more limited in peripherals. Very few have an optical drive.


----------



## Ursa major

The things is, I don't want _any_ hassle at all, and so will (eventually) be buying a machine with either the full Windows or Apple O/S already on it (so no savings there).

I have _no_ aspirations to be other than a consumer of computers.


----------



## Brian G Turner

Ursa major said:


> The downside of moving to Apple



There's also something of a learning curve moving to Apple computers. I have both a PC and an iMac, but I still struggle to use the iMac properly. 

Superficially it's very similar - but there are various small detail that can make a simple action seem more complicated. 

I've never got properly used to Finder, Apple's equivalent to Windows Explorer. You have to be careful moving folders about that share the same name, because on the PC the folder contents will be merged, whereas on an Apple, the new folder will completely replace the old one, deleting any files from it. IMO Finder just isn't so intuitive or user friendly.

And also be warned: Apple seem to think that the normal range for screen brightness is somewhere between "Blinding bright" to "Melt your eyeballs". I had to download a third-party app for the iMac to dim it to bearable levels.

If mainly just used for writing and internet use, I suspect an Android tablet may make for a better and cheaper replacement for a PC.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Brian Turner said:


> I suspect an Android tablet may make for a better and cheaper replacement for a PC.


7" with 1024 x 600 and a keyboard is about £35.
Beware of 800 x 480 models or larger ones with only 1024 x 600 screen.
Models with good keyboard covers / detachable keyboards and decent screens cost over £600, an £800 Lenovo is better value.

Really for a decent screen, an Android tablet is no cheaper, as some decent laptops start at £500. You can actually get a refund for any "included" Windows now by law. Linux can be installed on virtually any Windows PC/Laptop, Mac, some Chromebooks (avoid as they are less functional than an Android tablet of same price with detachable keyboard, they are Cloud Terminals to Google Services) and some Tablets.
Note that ARM based hardware isn't as flexible as x86 hardware if you want to run DOS or Windows programs in WINE, Dosbox, an emulator or generic Virtual Machine. Avoid Surface, especially the non-Pro as they are no longer supported. Intel axed low power Atom x86 and MS axed ARM support, Hence the only supported models are the "Pro" types that are really an Ultrabook with detachable keyboard.

Double check screen resolutions and that it's not shiny!


----------



## Glitch

Ursa major said:


> ...the others being lack of control over when upgrades are downloaded and applied...



I've been using Windows 10 for a while and don't notice much difference to Windows 7. I think that was one of the reasons Windows 8 failed, it was just too different.

You can now change the update settings to prevent it from automatically restarting after updates. If you want more control I guess you could change your network to a 'metered connection' as updates won't download as it thinks you're paying for data download.


----------



## Ursa major

Brian Turner said:


> whereas on an Apple, the new folder will completely replace the old one, deleting any files from it.


It does _what..._? That's pathetic.

Does no-one complain? Or is Apple simply deaf to such complaints?


----------



## Brian G Turner

Ursa major said:


> Or is Apple simply deaf to such complaints?



It's simply a different environment. Apple have their own particular ways of doing certain things, which is why the move from Windows can be confusing.

Another was the lack of right-click on the mouse by default - apparently, dedicated Apple users have learned to use the left-click button in imaginative ways.

I bought my iMac in 2007, for music production, but have never really felt comfortable using it for much else. I also have to run its original version of OSX, because any more recent updates from Apple famously undermine its music production features.


----------



## REBerg

Brian Turner said:


> There's also something of a learning curve moving to Apple computers. I have both a PC and an iMac, but I still struggle to use the iMac properly.
> 
> Superficially it's very similar - but there are various small detail that can make a simple action seem more complicated.


Apple machines are very slick. So slick, in fact, that I have great difficulty controlling cursor placement on the highly polished trackpad of my wife's MacBook. I don't enjoy using it.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Brian Turner said:


> I suspect an Android tablet may make for a better and cheaper replacement


Real applications and decent wordprocessing is thin to non-existant compared to MacOS, Windows and Linux. Plenty of pointless apps. Last Time I looked, Libre Office hadn't been properly ported and MS Office stuff was either viewers or horrid "Cloud" terminal stuff. I just have a simple text editor on Android.


----------



## Ray McCarthy

Ursa major said:


> Or is Apple simply deaf to such complaints?


Tiny tiny part of Apples profits, and Macs / MacOS earns them almost no Cloud or iTunes revenue. That's why they scrapped the server (though the OS was still available last time I looked) and dropped "Computer" from their name. I expect a later version of the iOS based tablet + keyboard + stylus machine will replace the Ultrabook, with perhaps the Mac Pro for video editors last to go. They just ditched their Thunderbolt Video monitors, and no-one else is really interested in making non-HDMI monitors.


----------



## Phyrebrat

As you said upthread you're intending to be only a consumer of computers, Ursa, let me be the discordant voice and say I think you'd be greatly surprised at the easy transition to Apple. 

I kept away for years because of that and really found there to be no learning curve - at all. 

*Brian* - it's nearly ten years since you got your iMac; things may be different or easier now. I'm a proper little meddler with files and I've not replaced anything. The os just puts a number next to the 'new' file. Maybe there's a option in settings that governs how it handles file structure. (?). 


My 76 year old dad graduated from a PC to a Mac and had no problems - and this is a man who, according to my mother, 'can't even change channels properly'. 

pH


----------



## crystal haven

I need a hug! 

I have just lost three hours of writing this morning from Word because it wouldn't save - just hanging there. This keeps happening, ever since I got Windows 10. It's driving me mad! Any suggestions? Apart from buy a box of tissues?  It is so infuriating because I need to try to remember what I wrote now - and it will not be the same. 

Thanks for any help.


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## Phyrebrat

Are you able to do a screenprint? At least that way you can save what you can see.



pH


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## The Judge

I had a problem with trying to save something the other day -- I'm using Windows 10 (not by choice, I might add) -- and I resolved it by copying the whole document and pasting it into a fresh word doc and giving it a new name.  My problem wasn't exactly the same as yours, since it was throwing up odd error messages rather than just hanging, but if you can make it do anything, that might be one way out.

I have had the hanging problem in the past, and couldn't do anything except shut the whole lap top down and power it up again, but the auto-save has usually saved most of what I'd done, even if not the last few amendments.  Is your autosave not working?


As a last resort, if pH's screen grab won't work, there's good old fashioned writing it out long hand, if it's necessary to keep exactly the same wording.  If these are amendments, the undo and redo keys -- if they work while it's hanging --  will show you what you've changed, so if it's a long document you don't have to retype it all when you power up again.


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## REBerg

I accidently provided my elderly laptop's keyboard a sip of Oktoberfest last weekend, and it became even more disobedient than usual in typing the characters I intended. I got a new laptop and have thus reluctantly joined the ranks of Windows 10 users.
So far, no issues. I've been using Open Office word processing and spreadsheet apps for years, but I'm trying to re-adjust to Microsoft Office to make my documents more compatible. It will be a while before I know if my problems are programmatic or just me.


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## Ursa major

crystal haven said:


> I have just lost three hours of writing this morning from Word because it wouldn't save


When you say it wouldn't save, does this include autosaving?


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## The Bluestocking

crystal haven said:


> I need a hug!
> 
> I have just lost three hours of writing this morning from Word because it wouldn't save - just hanging there. This keeps happening, ever since I got Windows 10. It's driving me mad! Any suggestions? Apart from buy a box of tissues?  It is so infuriating because I need to try to remember what I wrote now - and it will not be the same.
> 
> Thanks for any help.



I was forced to use Windows 10 after I bought my new laptop 6 weeks or so ago. This exact thing happened to me the moment Windows 10 updated itself (I was in the middle of writing a work report in Word and it just hung and wouldn't save). So I brought it back to the shop and they had to re-format it and re-install everything. After that, everything began running smoothly.

So maybe you need to take that drastic action (reformatting).

I'm still not exactly thrilled that Windows 10 forces everyone to update (there is no opt-out) but the re-format and re-install basically solved my woes.

(And when I was having my Windows 10 problems, I thank my lucky stars that I had already switched to Scrivener for my writing so everything had been saved and backed-up automatically).


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## REBerg

The Bluestocking said:


> I'm still not exactly thrilled that Windows 10 forces everyone to update (there is no opt-out) but the re-format and re-install basically solved my woes.


But there is a workaround -- enabling the metered connection option for the Wi-Fi network settings.

http://lifehacker.com/enable-metered-connection-to-delay-windows-10-updates-1723316525


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## Phyrebrat

Also, there should be a default temp folder where auto backups are saved - not sure how up to date my advice is for Windies as I've been on Mac since 2010. 

In the temp folder, arrange it by newest files and have a look at the latest temp files. 

From memory the name would be something like half the original name of the file followed by ~~

pH


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## The Bluestocking

REBerg said:


> But there is a workaround -- enabling the metered connection option for the Wi-Fi network settings.
> 
> http://lifehacker.com/enable-metered-connection-to-delay-windows-10-updates-1723316525



Doesn't exactly solve the issue since it only delays the updates, not stops them. 

#MicrosoftTheEvil


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## REBerg

The Bluestocking said:


> Doesn't exactly solve the issue since it only delays the updates, not stops them.
> 
> #MicrosoftTheEvil


I don't know. Maybe the writer didn't want to advocate stopping updates completely.
If you never turn metered connection back off, will Windows 10 eventually take control and turn it back on?  If I start having problems, I may put this option to the test.


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## The Bluestocking

REBerg said:


> I don't know. Maybe the writer didn't want to advocate stopping updates completely.
> If you never turn metered connection back off, will Windows 10 eventually take control and turn it back on?  If I start having problems, I may put this option to the test.



#EffWindows10 #NoReallyEffWindows10


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## Ursa major

The Bluestocking said:


> I'm still not exactly thrilled that Windows 10 forces everyone to update


As I've mention (more than once) before -- perhaps even on this thread -- I was not at all pleased that, after an automatic** update -- my computer restarted, without notice, while I was editing my manuscript. (Luckily, I had autosave on and it had been working as it should.)

Anyway: the WiFi metering trick looks like a good idea, especially if I'm visiting somewhere with low ADSL bandwidth or -- worse -- a link where I'm paying for the data "I'm" downloading.


** - When setting up HP machines -- well, on all three I've bought over the years -- using the application supplied by HP one is given the option of either having automatic updates or no notification of updates, the latter being "not recommended". One then has to update Windows's update settings to informing me of available updates. On the machine in question, I had not done this (possibly because I'd had to scrabble around finding writable DVDs of the correct sort to back up the system software and data). Oh, and I had no idea that an automatic update would involve an unheralded restart: I like to be in control of my updating simply so that I don't have the worry of pausing or cancelling an update, or leaving the machine on, if I've only switched the machine on for a short while to check my email before leaving the house. (It's bad enough when you have to wait after the machine closed down and then it tells you: "don't switch the machine off: updates in progress" or something like that.)


----------



## Phyrebrat

This doesn't help you now and I don't want this to sound self righteous, but I've used Windows from 1995-2010. 

I'd avoided migration to Mac because of price and inertia but I'm still using the same Mac I bought in 2010, have no issues whatsoever and it burns me when I see people still investing in microshaft. If you can afford it and don't want all these bugs and aggressive updates, I'd advise anyone to change. 

Apart from saving money in the long run, Mac OS is an infinitely easier user interface. 

pH


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## crystal haven

Thanks for all the replies and support, everyone.

Unfortunately autosave doesn't seem to have worked. I made the mistake of opening up a new document, and trying to save something I'd copied across. It then hung and I couldn't do anything except shut the whole computer down, losing the original work. I thought it would have been on a recovery document, but no. I was using Windows 8.1 before, and had no problems with that. It is just since Windows 10. I can manually save as I'm typing on a document that's already been created and saved in the past, but I hadn't done that - idiot I am.

Can I take out Windows 10? If so, will I lose all my Word docs? I'm a bit worried about making things worse. I'll just have to rewrite this scene, but it's so frustrating. This keeps happening all the time and I just don't trust Word anymore.


----------



## The Judge

Sorry to hear that. *sends a virtual chocolate eclair*

I lost an entire chapter the other day after a glitch (possibly my fault, so I can't legitimately blame Windows 10, much as I'd like to) and had to make a whole load of amendments all over again, which was bad enough, but at least I'd got an old version I could work from.  So I know some of the pain.  

I don't think autosave can save a document which hasn't been given an identity -- I've got into the habit of giving new documents a working name at once, before I do anything I wouldn't want to lose, to avoid that problem.  Does autosave otherwise work for you, though, on previously saved documents?  If not, that would need looking at.

I've no idea about removing Windows 10.  I know when we bought my new laptop last year we thought long and hard about it, but decided we couldn't try and revert.  Hope it all works out anyway.


----------



## crystal haven

Thank you. 
Mmm. Yummy chocolate eclair. 

I've tried opening a new document, going to 'save as', and it is at this point it hangs. And any other documents I have open have to close too because shutting the computer down is the only way to get out of it. If I haven't saved work, it's lost. The autosave is supposed to be working, but clearly it wasn't or it would have saved my work at the time.

I can do the scene again, I was just so annoyed this morning. Thanks for the support. 
I am seriously thinking of looking at Scrivener.


----------



## HareBrain

Sorry to hear that, Crystal. Infuriating.



The Judge said:


> I don't think autosave can save a document which hasn't been given an identity



It does, or mine does -- it comes back recovered as "Document 1".

I didn't realise before reading today's posts on this thread that Windows 10 updates on its own whim, and even forces a restart without asking permission. That truly is expletive-worthy. Shocking. Please God make my Windows 7 PC live forever.


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## Ursa major

HareBrain said:


> and even forces a restart without asking permission


The restart without permission was on a Windows 7 machine (if it was my post you were referring to).


----------



## HareBrain

Ursa major said:


> The restart without permission was on a Windows 7 machine (if it was my post you were referring to).



Ah -- I think what it does is if you install updates but don't restart it within a few minutes, it pops up a box asking if you want to restart, and you have a few minutes to say "not yet". I guess maybe if you ignore the box (or don't notice it, which I can easily see happening), when the timer runs out it'll restart by itself. That also is very poor.


----------



## The Judge

HareBrain said:


> It does, or mine does -- it comes back recovered as "Document 1".


Not sure what happened to mine then.  It was ages ago (might even have been on the old lap top, thinking about it, before Windows 10) so I can't recall all the details.  It's possible I might not have been working on it long enough for the autosave to pop up, of course.  I don't think I want to risk finding out if it works now, though!


----------



## mosaix

Ray McCarthy said:


> It's a service on the Web, it doesn't really need ANY OS support, just a browser!



Unfortunately incorrect, Ray. XP boxes are now prevented from logging in to the Dropbox service and so a) don't update their own files in Dropbox and b) don't get the latest files from other (non XP) systems belonging to the same account.


----------



## Ursa major

The timer box didn't appear: I had one window open -- Word's -- and it was occupying the whole screen. I'm _very_ easily distracted, and I'm sure that a box appearing would have caught my eye.

Off-hand, the only way I can think of (other than a software glitch) why, if the box was meant to appear but didn't would be if I clicked on something a small fraction of a second after the box was meant to appear, an action that would be interpreted as shifting the focus back to the Word window (from the box). This would require that the routine painting the box on the screen accepted input (from the mouse, not the keyboard**) before doing the actual painting. That seems very unlikely... but the fact remains that no box appeared.


** - My experience is that when the focus changes in the middle of typing, the characters disappear into a black hole. (At least, one would hope that this is what always happens; otherwise one could end up typing into a field in a new window, pressing return and finding the PC was doing something you hadn't meant to request.)


----------



## Mirannan

mosaix said:


> Unfortunately incorrect, Ray. XP boxes are now prevented from logging in to the Dropbox service and so a) don't update their own files in Dropbox and b) don't get the latest files from other (non XP) systems belonging to the same account.



The same applies to Google Drive and Microsoft's own One Drive, incidentally. This is especially annoying because a) I was using Google Drive to sync various WIP between laptop and desktop and b) because my laptop is far too old to be able to take Windows 7, never mind 10. (I bought it in 2001; it was state of the art then!) And, also incidentally, the workgroup and public directory sections of windows 10 are completely different from XP; I spent hours a while back trying to see my public directory on the windows 10 machine from the XP one and got nowhere.


----------



## The Bluestocking

crystal haven said:


> Can I take out Windows 10? If so, will I lose all my Word docs? I'm a bit worried about making things worse. I'll just have to rewrite this scene, but it's so frustrating. This keeps happening all the time and I just don't trust Word anymore.



1. You can if you know how to install Windows 7 (or can pay someone to do it for you). My new laptop is still under warranty and the shop I bought it from has the Windows 7 programme tucked into it as a back-up just in case Windows 10 keeps throwing up issues and we need to activate Windows 7 instead.

2. No, you won't lose your documents if they have been saved as a file. Microsoft office is separate from Microsoft Windows. You just need to reinstall Microsoft Office after you switch OS versions so you can open the files.


----------



## psikeyhackr

crystal haven said:


> I have just lost three hours of writing this morning from Word because it wouldn't save - just hanging there. This keeps happening, ever since I got Windows 10.



I write in a text editor wth an autosave feature set to 10 minutes.  I mostly use Linux and otherwise Windows 7.

I have a UNIX Administration book from 2001 that talked about the Planned Obsolescence of computer software.

Curiously I had a conversation with a proposal manager at an opinion research firm who complained about useless upgrades in word processing software in 2000.  How many useless features and file formats can they come up with to make people upgrade?  I find Windows 8 annoying.  More annoying than 7.

psik


----------



## crystal haven

I've caught back up. The scene has been written and is well and truly saved! 

Thank you for all the support and suggestions. I'm going to make sure any new document I open is saved before I write anything. It's Office 365 I'm using, by the way, and I've been told that it doesn't do autosave. Not sure if that's correct or not. It certainly didn't autosave when I needed it to.


----------



## Ursa major

crystal haven said:


> and I've been told that it doesn't do autosave


Is there a chance that the autosave -- assuming it happens at all (which it may not do) -- may have been saving your recovery file to the SkyDrive?

From PC magazine's 10 Things You Need to Know About Office 365:





> *1. In the cloud.* Microsoft Office 365 is "in the cloud" from two perspectives. First, buying the suite necessarily requires downloading it, which is to say, you can't buy it on a disc (the exception being in developing countries, where Microsoft will continue to sell discs). Second, the office suite itself is set up to save your documents to the cloud, SkyDrive in this case, if you so choose. You do still have the option to save files locally, but the apps integrate tightly with SkyDrive.


I know that this is unlikely: the recovery file should have been offered to you when you restarted Word, but I thought I'd mention it.


----------



## J Riff

Meanwhile, XP rocks on. Offline, with Office 2000 onnit. Poifect, I tell ya. It autoslaves and has no fancydan features. It's so good that I have sold all my old pencils and pens. Really good.


----------



## crystal haven

A good thought, Ursa, but I checked that, just in case. Thank you for the suggestion, though.


----------



## Parson

J Riff said:


> It autoslaves



There should be a good story in that word somewhere.


----------



## Ursa major

Parson said:


> There should be a good story in that word somewhere.


But will Word let you write it...?


----------



## HanaBi

I have installed 10Pro on a VM; switched off all the usual PI-gathering apps & switches, and have to confess to quite liking what I have seen over the last few months!

As others have said, 10 is all the best bits from their legacy OSs, and is much better for it; although personally I am quite happy to continue using 7.

Working in IT at my place of work, we're already moving everyone over to 10 so that we can also migrate them from Office/Exchange, to Office365.

Am not a big fan of this "Cloud-is-all" solution; not least because you have no real control over your data, given that it's been hosted on someone else's datacentre. 

I also suspect Microsoft are going to unleash an ugly can of whoopass on "10" users, now that the free-upgrade deal is over, and they have milllions of users in their grasp. The upgrade carrot was free, but the Big Stick will be coming soon, methinks.


----------



## Cathbad

Since Win 10 updates have twice locked up this laptop, I'm rather sick and tired of it, already.


----------



## HanaBi

Cathbad said:


> Since Win 10 updates have twice locked up this laptop, I'm rather sick and tired of it, already.



Could be a conflict with old software/hardware drivers. You might be able to uninstall  the troublesome update; although there's every chance it will reinstall itself at the next rollout.


----------



## Cathbad

HanaBi said:


> Could be a conflict with old software/hardware drivers. You might be able to uninstall  the troublesome update; although there's every chance it will reinstall itself at the next rollout.



I recovered to an earlier date both times.  If they reinstalled later, there was no problem with either.  This laptop came with Win10 installed, or I wouldn't have ever used Win10.  There are definitely things I like about it, but others I'm no so thrilled with.


----------



## Judderman

Although generally I'm happy with windows 10 it did take an hour to install the anniversary version updates recently, without warning how long roughly it would take. I had to power off at one point but it finished ok.


----------



## Phyrebrat

The things we accept ... Bad customer service, stupid train delay lies, government obfuscation, and...  

Windows 10 software condemned by Which? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37431343



pH


----------



## pambaddeley

Phyrebrat, that link didn't work but if you can't edit it, it is here - Windows 10 software condemned by Which? - BBC News


----------

