# Alternate history scenarios: What if?



## Stalker

I am a great fan of Alternate history! Nothing (in Sci-Fi) can give me more pleasure than watching the plot that grows out of the real history we took for granted when read school history textbooks. Putting historical persons in quite a different situation, exploring  their behavior - that's something else! Find the key point in human history and suggest your own scenario!

The most popular scenario is probably what would have happened if German Reich had won WW2. One of the most remarkable books on the topic is (in my opinion) _The Man in the High Castle_ by Philip K. Dick.
More distant point of alternation: what would have been if that damn meteorite hadn't hit Earth 65 million years ago? Harry Harrison's _West of Eden_ is extremely good!
What would have happened if Aztecs (assumption: they knew Iron) had opened Europe (not otherwise)?
What if Both Scipions were killed at the battle of Zama? _Delenda Est_ by Paul Anderson
What if Gruchi had stopped Blucher and prevented him from arriving on the field of Waterloo to join battered British troops under Duke Wellington's command?
But the matter which interests me the most at the moment is what would have happened if Napoleon hadn't surrendered to the capitain of HMS Bellerophont and used the offer of the merchant from Boston and fled to the USA? Would Great Britain have started another war against the States because of it. Would Munro or Andrew Jacksson be glad to use Napoleon's skills in such a war? Etc.
Your ideas? Your scenarios?


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## Animaiden

I'm good at posing the questions, not answering them so,

How about:
What if George Washington had died crossing the Deleware?

What if Portugal had accepted Columbus' proposal instead of rejecting it?

What if Martin Luther hadn't nailed his theses to the door of the church, but somewhere else?

What if Pope Urban II hadn't made his crusades speech?


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## zorcarepublic

I would love to answer these questions, Animaiden, but I can't. I'd have to know the period of history in question before making a reply. I can, however, make a brief, possibly incorrect statement about the last:

We would possibly be more tolerant towards the Middle East?


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## Stalker

Animaiden said:
			
		

> I'm good at posing the questions, not answering them so,
> By bad! Although, seems giving reference to certain books, I gave partial answers because I would probably not be able to suggest better scenarios.
> How about:
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> Animaiden said:
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> What if George Washington had died crossing the Deleware?
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> Unfortunately, my knowledge of War of Independence is very limited. Seem to me, however, that England would have lost that war in any case but consequences migh have been different. The war would have lasted longer but American victory in such a case might have become even greater if disconteted Canadians forced to feed and lodge British troops keeping on coming there had risen too. USA+Canada - migh sound pleasant for an American ear, heh?
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> Animaiden said:
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> What if Portugal had accepted Columbus' proposal instead of rejecting it?
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> Click to expand...
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> All right, then all Latin America spoke Portugese instead of Spanish!
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> Animaiden said:
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> What if Martin Luther hadn't nailed his theses to the door of the church, but somewhere else?
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> Click to expand...
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> Completely unaware of that case. If you will be so kind as tell the whole story (in short) we may speculate on that topic. Did it really matter for history where Luther had nailed his theses?
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> Animaiden said:
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> What if Pope Urban II hadn't made his crusades speech?
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> Click to expand...
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> Crusades would have happened, sooner or later,  in any case because Urban II only highlighted ideas that came to minds of many Christian rulers of that time. They thought that Saracens had defected Christianity, and Holy Sepulcre needed their protection. It was quite an obsessing idea I should say!
Click to expand...


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## Animaiden

Martin Luther was a friar(or monk, can't remember which).  He didn't like the way the christian church was going, so he wrote up his complaints as 95 theses and nailed them to the neighborhood church door.  The church didn't like it, and after muchdebate and arguing, plus many years, Martin Luther was excommunicated.  He was the start of the Protestant Reformation.  Lutherans are nemed after his ideas on what was wrong with the church(witch was only catholic in tose days).

I believe that if George Washington had died crossing te Deleware, the American would have lost heart, a good comander, and more than likely the war.  There probably would have been another bid for independence, but it would come much later.

Most of the questions I posed are from what I just learned in my Western Civilization 1 class in college.  It deals with history up to Christopher Colombus getting to the New World.

This might be a little juvenile,but the is an young adult book that deals with the subject of "if this did or didn't happen".  Animorphs: Megamorphs #3 by K.A. Applegate.  Shows what a world would be like if certain things did or didn't happen.  You might want to read up on the series before you read this book, though.


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## Stalker

Animaiden said:
			
		

> Martin Luther was a friar(or monk, can't remember which). He didn't like the way the christian church was going, so he wrote up his complaints as 95 theses and nailed them to the neighborhood church door. The church didn't like it, and after muchdebate and arguing, plus many years, Martin Luther was excommunicated. He was the start of the Protestant Reformation. Lutherans are nemed after his ideas on what was wrong with the church(witch was only catholic in tose days).


 
Thanks. I, of course, know who was Martin Luther, I simply didn't know that particular story with nailing theses. As far as I remember, he was a Catholic cleric. So, your point is understood. I believe that history is a consistent thing. That means that it follows certain irresistable rules. One of the rules is that the oppression ALWAYS results in the REVOLUTION AGAINST IT. The tougher opression, the more horrible revolution will happen. Reformation was one of such revolutions. A religious revolution. I also believe that there are key persons whose alternate behaviour in key points of history could have changed all our civilisation. It seems to me Martin Luther - however strange that may sound - was not such a person. Of course, his alternate behavior ould have changed certain details in our history but not much. The aristocracy all over Europe strived for Reformation, they hated the Church as institution that appeared to be the biggest land owner. There were also  lots of other reasons. My thesis is that the THIS WAY OR THAT REFORMATION SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED IN ANY CASE. However, the details are interesting. Jean Calvin, for example, could have expanded his influence not only in Switzerland and Eastern France but also along the Rhein and all over Northern Germany and Scandinavia.



			
				Animaiden said:
			
		

> I believe that if George Washington had died crossing te Deleware, the American would have lost heart, a good comander, and more than likely the war. There probably would have been another bid for independence, but it would come much later.


 
The rebel colonies had all chances to be victorious in the end because even with death of Washington they had all advantages except trained regular Army and Navy. Britain had all disadvantages except for Army and Navy. Add to this, long line of communication between the Islands and the American continent. Britain could not have afforder that war for too long despite all stubborness of George III.


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## FelineEyes

I agree that a reformation of some kind would have happened regardless of what Luther did or didn't do.  However, the simplest answer to your question Animaiden is that there would be no Lutherans.
And you and I would be Catholics.
And it seems to me that Calvinism was inspired by Lutheranism and if the Lutherans hadn't started the Reformation, maybe John Calvin would have done anything if Luther hadn't started it.  And maybe not.  Moreover, if Luther and Calvin hadn't done anything at all, it would have taken a lot longer for the Catholic Church to reform, but they wouldn't have had any reason to.
On the other hand, it would have prevented the 30 Years War, the massarce of the Hugenots in France, and save thousands of other lives.  

And to think: if the Catholic Church reformed on it's own and prevented the reformation, they maybe the KKK wouldn't have any trouble with them.
And then again, maybe they would.
Any thoughts on this?


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## Stalker

FelineEyes said:
			
		

> I agree that a reformation of some kind would have happened regardless of what Luther did or didn't do. However, the simplest answer to your question Animaiden is that there would be no Lutherans.
> And you and I would be Catholics.


Or Lutherans would now be called Zwinglians and would have some difference in doctrine if compared to Lutherans. Zwingli started his propagation of Church reform even before Luther and had a large support in Southern Germany. Or else, if Zwingli had failed, then Calvin for sure would have tried to fill in the vacant place by his preaching.


			
				FelineEyes said:
			
		

> And it seems to me that Calvinism was inspired by Lutheranism and if the Lutherans hadn't started the Reformation, maybe John Calvin would have done anything if Luther hadn't started it. And maybe not. Moreover, if Luther and Calvin hadn't done anything at all, it would have taken a lot longer for the Catholic Church to reform, but they wouldn't have had any reason to.
> On the other hand, it would have prevented the 30 Years War, the massarce of the Hugenots in France, and save thousands of other lives.


Don't forget that before St. Bartholomew's night in Paris in August 1571, hugenots slaughtered thousands of catholics in pogroms in Southern France. So, they weren't mere sheep either.



			
				FelineEyes said:
			
		

> And to think: if the Catholic Church reformed on it's own and prevented the reformation, they maybe the KKK wouldn't have any trouble with them.
> And then again, maybe they would.
> Any thoughts on this?


 
Interesting point of view, and it needs further consoderation. To reform on its own, Catholic Church needed a huge kick in the ass. Actually that's what had happened. Since then Catholic Church has changed, very-very slowly but anyway, it has changed. Can that be called a reform? Yes, in a way.


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## Leto

FelineEyes said:
			
		

> the massarce of the Hugenots in France.


Doubtful, these events just took religion as a pretext, the real reason behind was a clash of powers between two kingdom : France and Navarre, and the consolidation of French nation (which already used Albigeois massacre to do so in Middle Age).

What if Crusades never happened ?


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## Stalker

Leto said:
			
		

> Doubtful, these events just took religion as a pretext, the real reason behind was a clash of powers between two kingdom : France and Navarre, and the consolidation of French nation (which already used Albigeois massacre to do so in Middle Age).
> 
> What if Crusades never happened ?


 
If we take for granted that Crusades never happened (but they should have happened as the response of Islamic conquest of Middle East and North Africa - see my opinion above). Then the modern world as we know it would be a strange place.
here is a few consequential lines:
1) The gunpowder would have been reinvented in Europe century or later because Europeans ould have never had a chance to learn that such a thing exists from the Arabs - the military techniques and strategies would go on developing without that factor - for long yet Europe could not have achieved any military advantage over East.
2) Byzantine Empire would have been occupied by Saladin long before the Turks. - Arabs would have invaded Balkans instead of Turks - what would you say about Caliphate of Albania, or Greek Caliphate. Their rule would be far more rutheless that one of the Turks. Maybe, even now Ukraine's neighbours would be one of such Caliphates. Even in 21th century, armies would still be armed with muzzle-loaders using black powder. No electricity, no heavy industries, only small manufactures, NO COMPUTERS. We would not be able to communicate with one another via Internet.
3) Due to the threat of Islam all Europe would have consolidated under the Catholic Church. No opposition allowed, no free thought, no civil liberties. Reformation never happened, or should any, it would be suppressed quickly and efficiently. The fires of Holy Inquisition would have survived until 20th century.
4) America. The necessity to import spices when the way to India is locked by the Muslims would lead to in the end to opening America in almost the same terms. Here my vision fails me. Who can help?


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## Winters_Sorrow

hmm - slightly harsh on that analysis I thought.
Saladin only came to power because of the crusades. I don't think its stretching to say that he would be another nameless clan chief if the crusades hadn't happened.

Also, due to trade, I don't think Gunpowder could have remained a secret for much longer. It was never fully incorporated into European combat until the 15th century anyway - after Marco Polo's return from China, so there may have been a slight delay. But not enough to cause that much disruption.
I agree about the Byzantine Empire though - that was created as a result of the crusades outcomes.

Personally, I'd like to think that there would not be as much recrimination & conflict between Islam & the western world without the crusades. There had been clashes before (notably in Spain) but that was a clash of countries and kings and between 2 isolated kingdoms. 
The mass invasion of the Middle East by 4 or 5 countries (the first "coalition of the willing?"  ) sparked a bloody occupation which sours relationships to this day and also (arguably) created the militant interpretation of the Koran. It could be argued that had the reverse happened and we had indeed been invaded & occupied for a century or two, a few of the *smite the unbeliever* phrases within the bible could have created a zeal amongst Catholics matched by todays suicide 'matyrs'

I think the crusades however weakened the church's power in the long run. The deaths (and more importantly, expense!) as a result of them - especially considering 'we' lost and in losing created an Islamic 'super-state' caused a lot of the kingdoms not to be as subordinate to the church and (and arguably!) ultimately caused the splitting off of the Church by Henry VIII - as I couldn't see that happening under the power the church held a few hundred years earlier.

all-in-all the great fun with alternate history is that you can saw what you like as long as it's plausible!


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## Stalker

In my opinion, a very interesting alternation:
Romans learned stirrup at Marcus Aurelius' time before Markoman war. Early introduction of heavy cavalry instead of cataphracts into cavalry tactics would make the transitional period to Middle Ages more smooth because getting rid of restless independent Germanic tribes in continental Europe could have presented Rome some more quiet centuries to cope with the crisis of economy. But having smashed Germans to dust, and extending its borders from Rein to Vistula, Rome would have come to face another barbaric unions - Slavs and Baltics
I guess, Dark Ages were unavoidable in any case but is there a chance that in the case mentioned above, human knowledge and culture accumulated by Rome would have lost less then in our history?


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## Winters_Sorrow

In my view the Dark Ages happened because of the resentment, jealousy & anger Rome generated to its 'colonies' through 5 centuries of rule. Once the barbarians at the gates destroyed the Roman Empire in the west, anything Roman was reviled and obliterated - even the Latin language was largely abandoned due to its 'roman' connections so the systems of learning were lost too.

Don't forget, the Roman Empire in the East thrived long after Rome fell - it might be a more interesting "what if" to consider what effect on the world had the Eastern Roman Empire regained and re-took the west rather than abandoning them and consolidating in the east. 
(I'm sure Brian will offer more input into this time period than I ever could....)


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## Stalker

Winters_Sorrow said:
			
		

> In my view the Dark Ages happened because of the resentment, jealousy & anger Rome generated to its 'colonies' through 5 centuries of rule. Once the barbarians at the gates destroyed the Roman Empire in the west, anything Roman was reviled and obliterated - even the Latin language was largely abandoned due to its 'roman' connections so the systems of learning were lost too.
> 
> Don't forget, the Roman Empire in the East thrived long after Rome fell - it might be a more interesting "what if" to consider what effect on the world had the Eastern Roman Empire regained and re-took the west rather than abandoning them and consolidating in the east.
> (I'm sure Brian will offer more input into this time period than I ever could....)


 
Well, all you are saying is true. Still, the point is that Rome however it was hated boasted high life standards and Roman citizenship offered lots of benefits. All barbaric people knew that, some of them even moved themselves under the protection of Rome. In a long run it became quite clear to Roman emperors that citizenship will do much work for Rome, and the son of Septimius Severus, Caracalla granted Roman citizenship to all free people of Roman Empire in 212 AD. 
There were also several attempts from Eastern Roman Empire (known as Byzantium in Middle Ages) to regain control over Latin part of the Empire (I should also note here that it was a cultural paradox that those whom we know now as Byzantines called themselves Romans actually being in huge majority Greeks and those western parts of the Empire where Rome was situated they called Latin lands. The paradox is that even Italians called Byzantines "Romei" - Romans) to regain control over Rome. Most successful attempt since' Constantine's was Belisarius' war in Italy during the reign of the basileus Justinian (6th century AD). Had he had stirrup then, Empire would be united once again.
The weak point in my story is that how could Romans in 2nd or even 6th century acquire stirrup from distant Asian tribes until Hungarians came to Europe armed with it in 8th century?


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## Winters_Sorrow

Romans weren't renowned horsemen in either case - they mostly used cavarly auxilla and more often than not, used allied horse rather than romans as such.

And my point was, that when Rome was top dog many people wanted Roman citizenship & associated benefits (it was the only way to get power & wealth for many) but once the rot set in - not many stuck around to be part of the losing side. Hence the abandonment of all elements of "Roman-ness" (sp?  ) and the loss of learning and education that went along with it. 

The bigger issue I think was that, because there was no-one to replace the Roman Empire when it fell (the barbarians often fought each other as much as they did Rome) the state of pretty much constant low-level warfare did not allow the luxury of time or learning to be pursued. Indeed, even in "Roman Britain" which was fairly isolated and in theory should have survived, there was a loss of control and things disintergrated into feuding warlords again.

A bigger what if could have been - what if Roman Britain had remained united and organised after the fall of Rome. It could have withstood the viking invasions and possibly the Britons would have remained Celtic rather than Anglo-Saxon as later...


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## Stalker

Winters_Sorrow said:
			
		

> Romans weren't renowned horsemen in either case - they mostly used cavarly auxilla and more often than not, used allied horse rather than romans as such.


Precisely! All ancient people used cavalry as auxiliary troops. That's no wonder - they didn't know stirrup! Remember, they weren't renown seamen either untill such a necessity arose during Punic wars against Carthagenians.
In the second centurt AD, however, they started shoing interest in cataphracts - Ancien analogue of heavy cavalry, but, again, those lacked stirrup.



			
				Winters_Sorrow said:
			
		

> And my point was, that when Rome was top dog many people wanted Roman citizenship & associated benefits (it was the only way to get power & wealth for many) but once the rot set in - not many stuck around to be part of the losing side. Hence the abandonment of all elements of "Roman-ness" (sp?  ) and the loss of learning and education that went along with it.


That was my point why I chose 2nd century AD. The peak of Rome both as military and cultural power, and after that there was only regress. So, the logic chain was: stirrup - Roman military aristocracy transforms into Chivalry (Land aristocracy) - Roman castles all over Europe - establishment of new cultural and trade centres on barbaric lands that gradually transform into new national cultural centres - splitting of Roman Empire into several national (Roman speaking) kingdoms no later that in 4th century. Christianity is adopted by major parts of these kingdoms no ooner as in the end of 4th, or early 5th century.



			
				Winters_Sorrow said:
			
		

> The bigger issue I think was that, because there was no-one to replace the Roman Empire when it fell (the barbarians often fought each other as much as they did Rome) the state of pretty much constant low-level warfare did not allow the luxury of time or learning to be pursued. Indeed, even in "Roman Britain" which was fairly isolated and in theory should have survived, there was a loss of control and things disintergrated into feuding warlords again.


 
The cultural succession of Rome - the only thing that could have prevented or diminished Dark Ages is total literacy. As you probably know, Rome could boast by almost total literacy (about 75% of population in old provinces). That's a critical point. New kingdoms that arose on the ruins of Rome had population that spoke a strange mixure of Latin and local barbaric dialects - these were not langualges untill 10th centuries  and thus could not be expressed by letters. Latin as a literate language preserved only in small Christian anclaves of culture (monasteries) and those were NOT enouch to keep all small fragments of knowledge remaining from Rome.



			
				Winters_Sorrow said:
			
		

> A bigger what if could have been - what if Roman Britain had remained united and organised after the fall of Rome. It could have withstood the viking invasions and possibly the Britons would have remained Celtic rather than Anglo-Saxon as later...


Ha! When the 6th legion left England, nobody could protect Hadrian's wall and the hordes of uncivilised  Picts poured into Britons' lands. King Arthur and his champions were simply unable to last long. Not without Romans! Saxons also knew that and in early 6th century envaded Britain, then Juts and Angles - everybody wanted to have his piece of a Christmas pie which was Britain! But for the Roman troops' departure, Britons would have had enough time to build the kingdom of their own.


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## FelineEyes

Wow.
I think I learned more from reading that post that I did in Western Civilization 1.


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## Stalker

Next potion of what ifs:
1. Mongols headed by Timujin (Chingiz Khan) had never come to Europe and smashed Russ.
2. In 14th century, the ruler of China, Kubla Khan sent the expedition on huge Chinese junks to see what lands lie beyond Japan. After the Wind of Gods (kamikadze) helped the Japanese to give a hard leak to Mongols. Supposedly, the ships went to the Sea of Okhotsk, along Kuril islands, then goes Kamchatka, Bering straights. Then Alaska and the whole new continent yet to be discovered. The ships were lost but what if they had managed to reach America? (the idea is taken from Paul Andersson's _Time Patrol_ but he never developed it).
3. Admiral Yamamoto had added certain details to his plan of assault of Pearl Harbor, and Vice-Admiral Chiochi Nagumo not only ruined with his Zero planes US Naval Base at Pearl Harbor but carried out operation of landing troops and was able to occupy Oahu, Maui and all the rest of Hawaii. That would prevent Enterprise's aircarrier fleet from safe return from maneuvres. I don't know if American carriers were able to reach San-Diego or Manila or any other American-held port in Pacific with the fuel they had. If no...
4. There was no Battle of Gravellines, and Spanish Armada ('La felicissima armada" landed safely its horrible troops on the British soil.
5. When Europeans open America, Homo Neanderthalis dominates the lands discovered. In general, it's a very interesting to speculate on topic of co-existance of two intelligent species on Earth.
Choose any of scenarios suggested or propose one of your own, and let's discuss it!


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## Animaiden

FelineEyes said:
			
		

> Wow.
> I think I learned more from reading that post that I did in Western Civilization 1.


So did I


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## Stormflame

Alternate History...hmm.

-
Wonder if Adolf Hitler had never died in that bunker.  Wonder if the Allied bombings had not taken effect.  Wonder if the 'exterminations' had gone on and all the ethnicity had been ran out of Europe.  Wonder if Hitler's regime had taken over as he had so planned and the 'hate' that birthed from his loins was multlipled and the world was cast into turmoil that none, not even Saddam, could have mustered or equaled.  Imagine a world like that....


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## PERCON

I can't, that's because I've never experienced it and wouldn't want anyone to.

Anyway if Hitler hadn't died in the bunker he would have been killed by Einstein who had created a time machine to travel back and change history by killing Hitler keeping the world at peace. Don't know how Hitler died??? Now you do  

PERCON


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## Stalker

Stormflame said:
			
		

> Alternate History...hmm.
> Wonder if Adolf Hitler had never died in that bunker. Wonder if the Allied bombings had not taken effect. Wonder if the 'exterminations' had gone on and all the ethnicity had been ran out of Europe. Wonder if Hitler's regime had taken over as he had so planned and the 'hate' that birthed from his loins was multlipled and the world was cast into turmoil that none, not even Saddam, could have mustered or equaled. Imagine a world like that....


 
You've drown a very grim picture.
Hitler feared that should he be caught by Stalin, the latter would put him to the cage and demonstrate to people like a beast. So, the beast he was. Pile up being Nazies over German methodicalness and you'll get a perfect machine for destruction. In that case Jews and Gipsies simply had no chance of survival. Having finished with them, Germans would no doubt would begin to clean the other European nations starting from Slavs, whose majority also according to Fuehrer Schiekelgruber (Hitler) was also subject to extermination. Remember _The Man in the High Castle_ by PKD? We can set out even more terrible scenarios here. 
I don't know how idea od hollow earth and Moon of Ice correlated in Nazies' mind with rocketry, it's only terrifies me to imagine Werner von Braun's toys flying earth orbits not by American stars but bearing swastikas on their hulls.


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## PERCON

There's always one. Hitler was that one, hopefully there won't be anymore.  
Somehow I don't believe that'll ever be the case, unfortunately.

We now need a new 'what if'. 

hmmmmmm.....


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## Stormflame

Wonder if the Americas had never been stumbled upon.  It is a logical thought that Europe and that area would be over filled with people.  Imagine the mess. 

On another hand, if the same thoughts and intellect had not entered into the Americas from the European area, imagine how different the inventions and innovations would have been had the indians, aztecs, and mayas and the rest, would have been allowed to grow on their own.  Their expertize could be far ahead of our own today, or waaayyy behind.  
The population of the Americas would be souly pure native blood and probably full like now, or perhaps, empty and desolate had their races died away.  Imagining the outcomes are endless....


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## Rahl Windsong

One of my favorite "what if" author's is Harry Harrison http://www.harryharrison.com/. 



Rahl


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## Stalker

One of the most interesting Harrison's works in alternate history beside _The West of Eden_ is _The Hammer and the Cross_ series written in colabouration with John Holm that tells breathtaking story of opposition between Christianity and unified pagan North Europe headed by the ex-slave, Shef. Strongly advise that you read it.


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## Stalker

Stormflame said:
			
		

> Wonder if the Americas had never been stumbled upon. It is a logical thought that Europe and that area would be over filled with people. Imagine the mess.
> 
> On another hand, if the same thoughts and intellect had not entered into the Americas from the European area, imagine how different the inventions and innovations would have been had the indians, aztecs, and mayas and the rest, would have been allowed to grow on their own. Their expertize could be far ahead of our own today, or waaayyy behind.
> The population of the Americas would be souly pure native blood and probably full like now, or perhaps, empty and desolate had their races died away. Imagining the outcomes are endless....


 
I already mentioned it above. Imagine aztecs discovering Europe instead of otherise. These great indian civilisations were in some areas far ahead of Europeans, but where they were behind is metallurgy. They never discovered iron working so they appeared defenceless when faced the iron-clad cuttthroats lead by Hernando Cortez and Francisco Pissarro riding terrible horses. But I am in terror when try to imagine bloodthirsty Aztecs mastering iron when they will try to invade Europe. 
Taking suppostition that Indians learned iron working, it becomes an extremely interesting topic because in that case we may whitness the rise of at least three great Empires in both Americas: Anahuak - the Aztec Empire whose borders come up to Rio Grande or even farter north, and in the south they stretch to Panama; The Great Union of Iroquis initially having republican rule but probably by the 19th century transforming into Empire. Its territory stretches far to all sides of Canada, down to Virginian "brothers" Cherokee or even farther south to the swapms of Florida. The Delavers are assimilated. Proud Hurons have been forced into the Union. The Missisipi is the natural border of the above Empire. Farther west there are barbarians, Dakota, Shawnee, Apache, and Aztec-fed Camanche and Navaho who bring trouble to south-western border of the Great Iroquis Union. I think that Iroquis might have become the leading force of the American civilisations and had all chances to be much more friendly to Europeans than all other American Empires.
And, finally, Tihuantisuyu, the Land of Four Corners of the World, the Empire of Inkas. This Empire carries out Isolationistic policy, and expands to Mid Chile where borders on the Kingdom of Araukans. The Inkas have finally started using wheel due to side trade with the rest of the world, and their highways in Ands work extremely efficient. The Great Inka Pachakuti Yupanki IV p ) rules all the lands around Titikaka and down the selvas of the Amazon, and up to Venezuela and Surinam.
What is with Maya? Sorry, seems they are completely destroyed by Aztecs and the hearts of their leaders burned long ago on top of the teokalli (sp?) of Uiztilopochtli (sp?) and Teskatlepoka (sp?).
Your ideas, suggestions to continue or to argue all above?


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## PERCON

I personally haven't got much knowledge in the area of aztecs but I am now wonderering what if they had discovered iron working, and gone on to rule across the globe, would humanity be further ahead of where it is now, or behind?

I've always been interested in 'what if's' where events could have changed the way humanity developed.

I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts on this...

_PERCON_


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## iratebeaver

Hmmmm...... HHHHmmmmmmmmmmMM....aha!Imagine if the Egyptians had conquered the world and we all worshipped the Egyptians' Gods.


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## Leto

Could be worse, at least those gods didn't ask for regular human sacrifice. And I wouldn't mind worshipping cats.


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## Stalker

What I think is that if Aztecs were familiar with Iron working, all the same they could not occupy all the world. I doubt that they could occupy both Americas because once iron had been discovered there, the discovery would have needed only about century to get spread all over the continent. Both Americas of 15th, 16th centuries were not densely populated places, and it goes without staying that brave iron-clad Jaguar warriors were not enough to invade to cramped and heavily armed Europe full of soldiers and mercenaries of all kinds but they would be enough to prevent European invasion in early 16th century, when Europeans had only rudimentary artillery (bombards) and firearms (arquebusas) didn't play quite a great role in the battle. That time ould be enough for American Empires to preserve Status Quo with little territorial loses - such as Cuba, Carribean islands, Coastline from Venezuela to Argentina, maybe, Newfoundland, Bermudas. I think, if the Iroquis tribe of Manhattan had already been in the Union of a Long House, they would not have sold Manhattan to the Datch when the latter arrived in the region. 
I am simply amazed with the picture of democratic Iroquis Republican Union rising in the end of 16th century and knowing Iron working.


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## Animaiden

Here's another question.
What if electricty had never been invented/harnessed?
(ie no electricty now)


----------



## Stormflame

This idea almost inspires me to go write a book.  Seriously.  If electricity had never been harnessed, imagine the world and how it would look today.  Sure, the world would have progressed.  However, imagine streets lit by lantern light.  Imagine there being no skyscrapers.  Nothing that has been built using the science of electrity, nor anything that uses electricity now, would exist.  

An industry in oil and fossils and trees would have been inspired by the ever increasing numbers of the worlds population.  Hydroplants would not exist.  Man's exploration of our little place called earth would never have been as easy.  Far off places would only be reachable by slow steampowered locomotion.  The plot is endless.  The world could have fell into a regression from such a thing. 

World wars would not have taken place in such a manner as they had.  Science would have evolved down new roads, not realized by us now.  A greater power could have been founded, and we could have very easily been pushed into technology that far surpasses our tech of today.  We could have already been on Mars and apassed.  Space stations could be just another random sight in a world of hovering cars and bigscreens that make plasma screens of today appear meager.

On the other hand, one must consider, that if this 'power' had not been found and tamed, another power would have surely been found and utilized.  That very thing could have saved us from high gas prices now and could have put any use of oils and trees and electricity itself to the backburner.  It could be a power that we are setting on right now, and not even realize it is there, for reason that we depend happily on our primary resources available to us now.

A tech book.  Yes, great idea....


----------



## Stalker

The world of steam engines, huh?

Still, there is the question how could have not humankind stumbled upon electricity if its effects could be observed even in the dawn of civilisation as the result of friction of certain materials?


----------



## Rahl Windsong

Stalker said:
			
		

> One of the most interesting Harrison's works in alternate history beside _The West of Eden_ is _The Hammer and the Cross_ series written in colabouration with John Holm that tells breathtaking story of opposition between Christianity and unified pagan North Europe headed by the ex-slave, Shef. Strongly advise that you read it.


 
Aye I have read West of Eden, and the Hammer and Cross series, excellent!


----------



## Stalker

Maybe, we should go back to the Big Boom when all physical constants were created in very first nainiseconds of existance of our Universe. What if they allowed magic?


----------



## Quokka

Has anyone read _The years of salt and rice? _I enjoyed Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars series but so far havent read this. It's a what if story, where the black plaque wipes out 99% of the european population, meaning no renaissance, industrial revolution etc. Asia and the middle eastern influences begin to dominate in exploration and invention. Just curious if anyone has read it and what they thought of it?


----------



## Stalker

Nope, judging by your description should be very interesting. 
A also can suggest for reading an extremely interesting _Belisarius_ series by Eric Flint and David Drake telling the story of confrontation between Roman Empire (Byzantium) and Malwa dominated India that takes place in 6th century AD.
This series, however, does not belong to purely alternate history genre because there are two entities from future - ecah in the opposing camp - that teach both Romans and Malwa future technologies. The interesting point is that the way both sides can apply the future knowledge with the industrial capacity they have!


----------



## Stalker

Here is another piece for speculation. Shauvinism aside, what nation, in your opinion, contributed most of all into shaping of modern world as we see it now?
Which nation's influence was crucial onto historical development? Let's say what ould have been if certain nation hadn't existed in our history at all?
Most Anglo-american sci-fi writers opine that England was the most influential of modern nations in shaping our modern world. But for it, our world would look now not only *a little bit different* but *a whole lot different*. Generally agreeing with above point of view, I would also like to hear your comments on it!
Once, six or seven years ago, I read* Pavane **by Keith Roberts* written in 1968.
British writer Keith Roberts gives alternative-history an Anglo twist in this fine set of interconnected short stories. This time it is the assassination of Queen Elizabeth I that changes the course of history. And Spanish armade lands its troops on English soil. The 20th-century is dominated by a technophobic Catholic Church and the Inquisition is still up to its old tricks.


----------



## Jaxom_Ruatha

Stalker said:
			
		

> What would have happened if Aztecs (assumption: they knew Iron) had opened Europe (not otherwise)?


 
Kate Elliot's Crown of Stars Series is about that, the Aoi are Native Americans that come to Europe and begin to enslave the primitive tribes there. The only twist is that she added magic, still I highly recommend it, it is a great series!


----------



## kyektulu

What if communism hadn't occured in the Russia?


----------



## dwndrgn

Stalker said:
			
		

> Here is another piece for speculation. Shauvinism aside, what nation, in your opinion, contributed most of all into shaping of modern world as we see it now?
> Which nation's influence was crucial onto historical development? Let's say what ould have been if certain nation hadn't existed in our history at all?
> Most Anglo-american sci-fi writers opine that England was the most influential of modern nations in shaping our modern world. But for it, our world would look now not only *a little bit different* but *a whole lot different*. Generally agreeing with above point of view, I would also like to hear your comments on it!
> Once, six or seven years ago, I read* Pavane **by Keith Roberts* written in 1968.
> British writer Keith Roberts gives alternative-history an Anglo twist in this fine set of interconnected short stories. This time it is the assassination of Queen Elizabeth I that changes the course of history. And Spanish armade lands its troops on English soil. The 20th-century is dominated by a technophobic Catholic Church and the Inquisition is still up to its old tricks.


I would love to see an alternate history where England was unable to colonize the East Indies.  Tossed out on their snobby buns, the English run back to the home island with no new goods to build trade and an empire.  Imagine those countries, realizing the wide world out there awaits and builds a trade empire themselves.  Tea, china, silks, cottons, etc.  The list is endless.  Imagine the power they could have commanded - keep outsiders out, bring riches in...


----------



## Lacedaemonian

It falls back on raw materials, the sort needed to drive heavy industry.  I often ponder ludicrous trade situations in the past.  Especially with the current oil issues.


----------



## littlemissattitude

A couple of things.  First, this:



			
				Stalker said:
			
		

> 5. When Europeans open America, Homo Neanderthalis dominates the lands discovered. In general, it's a very interesting to speculate on topic of co-existance of two intelligent species on Earth.


 
That's a really interesting idea, Stalker.  But my own favorite idea along these lines is, what would happen if some archaeologist found the remains of Neanderthals somewhere in North America, in a context that made it clear that the bones had not been planted and were not just a pathological modern human.  That's a story idea I've been playing around with for some time.

And, way back near the beginning of this thread, someone wondered what would have happened if Martin Luther had tacked up the 95 theses somewhere other than where he did.  Specifically, it would be interesting to explore the idea of what might have happened if he had taken them to Rome and tacked them up on the doors to the Pope's apartments.


----------



## Stalker

dwndrgn said:
			
		

> I would love to see an alternate history where England was unable to colonize the East Indies. Tossed out on their snobby buns, the English run back to the home island with no new goods to build trade and an empire. Imagine those countries, realizing the wide world out there awaits and builds a trade empire themselves. Tea, china, silks, cottons, etc. The list is endless. Imagine the power they could have commanded - keep outsiders out, bring riches in...


India was probably too isolated and self-content to use all trade benefits from all its resources. The ancient stagnating society... The British were not overburdened with superstitions and were too agressive to miss such a lovely piece of cake...


----------



## Stalker

kyektulu said:
			
		

> What if communism hadn't occured in the Russia?


Both Ukraine and Russia would have been the EU Member States by now... Poor USA!


----------



## Stalker

littlemissattitude said:
			
		

> A couple of things. First, this:
> That's a really interesting idea, Stalker. But my own favorite idea along these lines is, what would happen if some archaeologist found the remains of Neanderthals somewhere in North America, in a context that made it clear that the bones had not been planted and were not just a pathological modern human. That's a story idea I've been playing around with for some time.


Dan Brown plays with similar ideas in his Deception Point. BTW, the idea of Neanderthals in America is not new, and here I refer to  *The Encyclopaedia of Science Fiction, John Clute and Peter Nicholls*, and particularly, to its entry concerning Alternate histories.



			
				littlemissattitude said:
			
		

> And, way back near the beginning of this thread, someone wondered what would have happened if Martin Luther had tacked up the 95 theses somewhere other than where he did. Specifically, it would be interesting to explore the idea of what might have happened if he had taken them to Rome and tacked them up on the doors to the Pope's apartments.


Could he do that and he would have become a martyr, 'cos, no doubt, he ould have been burnt on the fire of Holy Inquisition.


----------



## Taltos

Stalker said:
			
		

> Both Ukraine and Russia would have been the EU Member States by now... Poor USA!



Nope. The Russia would still be monarchistic, have a strong aristocracy lead military force and be the leader of degenerate Europe ... at least such seems to be the view of russian SF authors (Rybakov, Zvjagintsev, Lazartchuk etc.) 

This Alternate history is a strong trend in modern russian SF. They write also about what would have happened if the Soviet Union didn't fall, what would have happened  Stalin was not the head of the state when the second WW started, what would have happened if the mongols hadn't invaded russian territories etc. 

The last idea is very nicely done by duet of authors hiding under the name of Holm van Zaitchik.


----------



## dwndrgn

Stalker said:
			
		

> India was probably too isolated and self-content to use all trade benefits from all its resources. The ancient stagnating society... The British were not overburdened with superstitions and were too agressive to miss such a lovely piece of cake...


I think probably their infrastructure wouldn't have supporded a world-wide trade empire but it would be a fun idea to play with.  Perhaps change history a little more - if they could kick out the Brits, couldn't they take on some of their better ideas and move forward with that.  Add in some fantastic minds to come up with some unique new ways of exploiting their own goods...it would be a fun one to play with.  The could spread their ideals and superstitions all over the place.  Just imagine, with this scenario, it is possible that India could colonize the Americas...that would be so much fun to play with!


----------



## Stalker

BTW, Taltos, if it's not a secret, where are you from? You seem to know much of Russian Sci-fi as noone else here. Just curious.


----------



## Stalker

dwndrgn said:
			
		

> I think probably their infrastructure wouldn't have supporded a world-wide trade empire but it would be a fun idea to play with. Perhaps change history a little more - if they could kick out the Brits, couldn't they take on some of their better ideas and move forward with that. Add in some fantastic minds to come up with some unique new ways of exploiting their own goods...it would be a fun one to play with. The could spread their ideals and superstitions all over the place. Just imagine, with this scenario, it is possible that India could colonize the Americas...that would be so much fun to play with!


Well, probably... but to do that they should have abolished the system of varnas (castes) to become more open and that was what they never cared to do. But your point is quite interesting and need further development. What breakthrough (cultural or technical) would let India come out of the isolated and stagnating cultural environment it appeared in the midieval time?


----------



## Taltos

Stalker said:
			
		

> BTW, Taltos, if it's not a secret, where are you from? You seem to know much of Russian Sci-fi as noone else here. Just curious.


 Former member state of Soviet Union ... same as yourself


----------



## Stalker

One more Ukrainian here? Glad to hear that!  
Now I understand... 
You are right and that nostalgy about old-kind timer of Father-Czar and attepts to replay the events of Civil war to the benefit of the White Movement, the attempts to review the beginning of the WW2 (a very interesting recent novel here is Fyodor Berezin's "Red Stars" (Krasnye zvyozdy) and Anisimov's "Option "BIS" (Variant "BIS"))
By the way I also like Lazarchuk's works in colaboration with Mikhail Uspensky in so called "cryptohistory" subgenre.
The "monster" of modern post-Soviet cryptohistory is Andrei Valentinov from Kharkov with his "The Eye of Power" series. Recently, I've read his novel The Frontier (Rubezh) written in colabnouration with HL Oldie and kievites Dyachenko - a very interesting work merging cryptohistory with alternate history and folk-fantasy.


----------



## Taltos

Stalker said:
			
		

> One more Ukrainian here? Glad to hear that!
> Now I understand...


nope. i feared, that you might interpret the last message this way. I'm from another former state 


			
				Stalker said:
			
		

> beginning of the WW2 (a very interesting recent novel here is Fyodor Berezin's "Red Stars" (Krasnye zvyozdy) and Anisimov's "Option "BIS" (Variant "BIS"))


the first one is about ,5 years old and the other 2 years, if my memory serves me correctly, and the "zvjozdnyi labirint" books are almost impossible to get, once they have been out of print for 6 months. SO I lucked out in getting these two. 


			
				Stalker said:
			
		

> By the way I also like Lazarchuk's works in colaboration with Mikhail Uspensky in so called "cryptohistory" subgenre.


These are good, but I think the best is his "sturmfogel" 


			
				Stalker said:
			
		

> The "monster" of modern post-Soviet cryptohistory is Andrei Valentinov from Kharkov with his "The Eye of Power" series. Recently, I've read his novel The Frontier (Rubezh) written in colabnouration with HL Oldie and kievites Dyachenko - a very interesting work merging cryptohistory with alternate history and folk-fantasy.


 I've read all of the "Eye" books, and to put the classifications in order, I think they are called secret history, not crypto history. The difference being that in crypto, some event or thing is changed, in secret history the things are the same, but some unnatural/mysticakl forces are in work. Valentinov is really good in his field AFAIK his a historian, his "Dezertir"  about french revolution and "Nebesa likujut" about Ukraine history are also worth reading. With "Rubesh" I'll have to agree, this is a good mix of gernes, although a bit too many authors (5)


----------



## dwndrgn

Stalker said:
			
		

> Well, probably... but to do that they should have abolished the system of varnas (castes) to become more open and that was what they never cared to do. But your point is quite interesting and need further development. What breakthrough (cultural or technical) would let India come out of the isolated and stagnating cultural environment it appeared in the midieval time?


steam


----------



## Stalker

dwndrgn said:
			
		

> steam


Interesting, but can you, please, find any preconditions for that in Indian history? The other question is how it's gonna work to change the Indian society inside because you should agree that when you introduce a single change, it somehow will result in whole series of changes in other spheres...
Well, I myself need to think a little more...


----------



## Stalker

Well, India her loos like the same isolated and self-content society as China. 
Look, Chinese invented almost everything the Europeans re-invented much later: industrial paper-making, iron works of a quality the European only achieved in 17th century, gunpowder, kites, silk, missiles (rocketry), compass etc...
In 15th century (40 years before Columbus) they sent the sea expedition consisting of military ships, transports and exploration ships - over 200 units! The flagship was so huge that it could use caravels Columbus used in his expeditions as life-boats. They visited Indonesia, Philippines, India and Persia. Then they also visited Eastern African shore and everywhere they faught and traded.
It's amazing, it's a historical paradox why China remained isolated after that being the largest by population, most technically and culturally advanced, the strongest in military terms (potentially)?
The explanation rests on social reasons. The society was immobile and stagnating. It was no driving force inside the society, and multiple limitations and regulations only supressed the further progress. Maybe, the same is with India.


----------



## Stalker

Taltos said:
			
		

> These are good, but I think the best is his "sturmfogel"
> I've read all of the "Eye" books, and to put the classifications in order, I think they are called secret history, not crypto history. The difference being that in crypto, some event or thing is changed, in secret history the things are the same, but some unnatural/mysticakl forces are in work. Valentinov is really good in his field AFAIK his a historian, his "Dezertir" about french revolution and "Nebesa likujut" about Ukraine history are also worth reading. With "Rubesh" I'll have to agree, this is a good mix of gernes, although a bit too many authors (5)


What is the difference? Cryptos may be translated from Greek as "hidden", "concealed" or  even "secret". Valentinov in one of his articles suggests particularly "cryptohistory" that means that such genre narrates the events that might have happen behind the scenes of official history, in hidden. As in the alternate history, here you also have wide space for speculations. And unnatural forces are left up to the author to use them in his story irrespectively of the genre.


----------



## Taltos

Stalker said:
			
		

> What is the difference? Cryptos may be translated from Greek as "hidden", "concealed" or even "secret". Valentinov in one of his articles suggests particularly "cryptohistory" that means that such genre narrates the events that might have happen behind the scenes of official history, in hidden. As in the alternate history, here you also have wide space for speculations. And unnatural forces are left up to the author to use them in his story irrespectively of the genre.



Sorry, my black  I was in a hurry and thought about the title of this thread instead of your post. What I wanted to write was that Valentinov is not very well suited for this thread as his secret/crypto (which basicly mean the same, I was "word blind" and tried to explain too much, which sometimes happens with me) histories aren't alternative history, as most of the historical events he is describing actually happened (OK, the "dhars" probably weren't present, but who knows ).


----------



## Jaggy Jai

Doesnt anyone else think its weird how we always associate alternative history with The Third Reich, perhaps because its still fresh in our heads, perhaps because deep down some people think the world would be a better place? If its the latter than it is quite scary?
                      Perhaps someone can help me here though? I remember seeing a short comic from Japan, it depicted the fall of the U.S to imperial Japanese forces and the invasion over there instead. Does anyone know of this, or if it may have been based on a short story or novel from Japan?
                   My dream alternative world however is a fantasy world where Great Britain had its own Revolution and ended the tyrannical rule of the monarchy!


----------



## Harpo

I like considering the alternate histories, especially those which hinge on one person before later important events in their lives.

In the early 30s Winston Churchill was knocked down by a taxi.  
When Alexander The Great was younger he was almost killed in battle. 

Both of those might have died, but instead they later changed history.
When Ogadai (ruler of the Mongols and third son of Ghenghis Khan) died, the Mongols ceased their unstoppable advance westward.  They would have destroyed many of the great European cities, and who knows how much of our culture would never have existed?
The Mongols went home and elected a new leader, after which they turned their attentions on China.


----------



## Ozymandias

I love this kind of stuff, especially the alternate histories set in Victoria era England It's a period of time has it's own unique feel. I love it. Western civ. was advancing so rapidly (at least as far as technology was concerned. They were still backwards as hell when it came to race relations). At the same time there was also the grimy, sooty industrial hellhole of lower class London. The dark side of progress. 

STEAMPUNK!


----------



## carrie221

I have a degree in history so I kinda like it to begin with but I find a lot of these ideas very interesting. History could have been so different so easily.


----------



## genisis2

Quokka said:
			
		

> Has anyone read _The years of salt and rice? _I enjoyed Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars series but so far havent read this. It's a what if story, where the black plaque wipes out 99% of the european population, meaning no renaissance, industrial revolution etc. Asia and the middle eastern influences begin to dominate in exploration and invention. Just curious if anyone has read it and what they thought of it?


 An excellent book!!! I encourage you to read it. Lost my copy a while ago . I have buy it again and reread it.


----------



## Dave

Ozymandias said:
			
		

> I love this kind of stuff, especially the alternate histories set in Victoria era England.


 I'm currently reading *The Difference Engine* by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling. I'm surprised that no one else has mentioned Steampunk yet in this thread. The idea that Lord Byron did not die in Greece and that Charles Babbage was able to build the Analytical Engine he had designed, so driving a steam-powered infomation-technology revolution that happened 100 years early is exactly the kind of idea you are throwing around, and I also love it.

What should I read next Ozymandias?

Also I haven't read anything by him myself, but I've heard *Harry Turtledove*'s books explore similar themes of Alternative History to the military histories you have been discussing.


----------



## carrie221

Dave said:
			
		

> Also I haven't read anything by him myself, but I've heard *Harry Turtledove*'s books explore similar themes of Alternative History to the military histories you have been discussing.


 
I just finished Harry Turtledove's "Days of Infamy" and its sequel "End of the Begining". The idea is that in WW2 that Japan invaded Hawaii after the air attack and it is quite interesting.


----------



## mosaix

The meterorite not striking 65 million years ago certainly gives food for thought.

However a more recent event (well 2,000 years ago) - what if the tomb hadn't been empty on the third day?


----------



## mosaix

On a more general point, I've recently been reading a few books and the subject of writing Science Fiction. Some of these books have sections on 'Recurring Themes'. One of the themes discussed is 'Alternative History'. All in all it seems to come in for a lot of criticism, some editors are totally fed up with it.


----------



## Ozymandias

Dave said:
			
		

> What should I read next Ozymandias?


 
 Well, after you get done with the Difference Engine I suggest you should read the ultimate in steampunk: Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen volumes I and II. It's a graphic novel (comic book) and I'm not sure if your'e into that medium but a lot of neat and exciting things come out of that field. Oh, and if you have had the misfortune of watching the big screen adaptation of the series, DO NOT let it dissaude you from reading the source material! It is miles away from Alan Moore's vision. After that you might want to rent Steamboy, It's a gorgeously animated film that happens, unfortunately, to be weak on writing, plot, and character development but chock full of breathtaking visuals and cool steam-powered gadgets.

And after that, you might consider reading (though I'm almost certain you already have, being a science-fiction fan) the original Victorian science-fiction: The works of H.G. Wells, Jules Verne, and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.


----------



## Dave

Thanks, I have seen the film, 'The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen' and I didn't find it that bad, but I have read many times that it is not a patch on the graphic novels.

Steamboy I saw in a shop and almost bought once but something stopped me, I will find it again.

I have read most HG Wells. I particularly liked 'When the Sleeper Awakes' which is not steampunk as it is set in the future, but I think is a very overlooked book by him. Jules Verne I am familiar with from the various films but haven't read much. Conan Doyle - I have read Sherlock Holmes, but not 'The Lost World'.

If you class those as steampunk, then you must also include Henry Rider Haggard's 'She' and 'King Solomon's Mines'?


----------



## C. Craig R. McNeil

I'm a big fan of alternative history and have gone to the extreme and mixed it in with a healthy dose of fantasy while writing my book, A Gathering of Storm Clouds. I've taken an idea of the British Empire discovering Atlantis in the dying years of the 19th Century and spun it out into a world where WW1 never happened because Britain dominates with magnificent mile long dreadnaughts. 

Alternative history is a wonderfully fertile area that rewards active imaginations!


----------



## Ozymandias

C. Craig R. McNeil said:
			
		

> I'm a big fan of alternative history and have gone to the extreme and mixed it in with a healthy dose of fantasy while writing my book, A Gathering of Storm Clouds. I've taken an idea of the British Empire discovering Atlantis in the dying years of the 19th Century and spun it out into a world where WW1 never happened because Britain dominates with magnificent mile long dreadnaughts.
> 
> Alternative history is a wonderfully fertile area that rewards active imaginations!


 
 That sounds like a very interesting premise. Brilliant, in fact. I look forward to reading it. 

 I myself am writing a "Steampunk" novel. It concerns the adventures of Artemis Appleby, a Holmesian detective, and his son. I'm writing it as children's book because I feel the genre of steampunk is woefully underrepresented in children's literature. There are so many possiblities with this genre! It's high adventure with a capital H!


----------



## j d worthington

Dave said:
			
		

> Jules Verne I am familiar with from the various films but haven't read much. Conan Doyle - I have read Sherlock Holmes, but not 'The Lost World'.


 
On Verne -- be sure to find someone who knows the more recent translations, as I found out while working at a bookstore that nearly all English translations of Verne deviate considerably from the original (a long story for another time), and only in the last 5 years or so have truly faithful translations been done ... in many cases some of his most famous works have, according to those who've read the originals, "yet to be read in English". On Conan Doyle, there are several other things by him that would classify as sf ... in fact, these were gathered together, I believe, into a couple of collections -- edited, I think, by John Brunner(?), with the possible exception of the other Professor Challenger stories, some of which were gathered together in an older collection, *The Poison Belt*.


----------



## Inquirer

This speculation came to mind recently: 

What if the Battle of Manzikert had been won by the Byzantines instead of the Seljuk turks?
That battle was one of those decisive military events. The defeat suffered by the Byzantines cost them Anatolia (their military and economic heartland). In the past, they had been to able to successfully respond to the challenge posed by the rise of Islam -- but this defeat was of such an order of magnitude that they simply couldn't recover.
Further, and more to my speculation, that defeat was one of the great drivers for the subsequent Crusades.

Assuming (by no means automatically), that a victory at Manzikert would have kept the Seljuks at bay, then the impetus for the start of Crusades is diminished. 
Even if the urge was there, it would have taken the approval and aid of the Byzantines -- and it unclear that they would have. To let a foreign army travel through their territory with the goal of conquering territories that they considered historically theirs, an army comprised of people who were not under the secular and religious authory of [SIZE=-1]Constantinople? Whatever advantages that the [/SIZE]Byzantines would have gained in terms would have to weighed against the profound political issues.

If the Crusades don't occur, then what? Does the [SIZE=-1]Byzantine Empire survive and continue to flourish for many centuries more? (The tragedy of the 4th crusade which effectively wreaked the surviving rump state doesn't happen). What happens to the Seljuks if they don't conquer Anatolia (besides not having the rise of the Ottomans)? What happens when the Mongols arrive in the Middle East? What happens in Western Europe without the influence of the Crusades? Lots of questions - all arising from a battle that few know of...[/SIZE]


----------



## mightymem

What about if the Ottomans were not defeated at Vienna or the Moorish empire was not destroyed in Southern Spain


----------



## Ozymandias

What if the South would've won?


----------



## mightymem

I read Harry Turtledove where he predicted such a scenario. Have you read his books ozymandias ?


----------



## j d worthington

Ozymandias said:
			
		

> What if the South would've won?


 
There's also the classic *Bring the Jubilee*, by Ward Moore, on the topic. And, while we're on the subject of alternatives dealing with the American Civil War, try Oscar Lewis' novella "The Lost Years", which deals with the possibility that the surgeons managed to save Lincoln, and how his final years might have been ... a very poignant and well-done piece of speculation; it can be found in *A Treasury of Great Science Fiction*, edited by Anthony Boucher (vol. 1, I believe; it's a 2-volume set and well worth reading by any fan of the genre).


----------



## Ozymandias

No I haven't. I was thinking of that Charlie Daniels song "If the South Would've Won". I can't believe someone would release a song like that!
 Sample lyrics:
 "If the South woulda won we'd of had it made
  I prob'ly run for president of these southern states"


----------



## Inquirer

mightymem said:
			
		

> What about if the Ottomans were not defeated at Vienna or the Moorish empire was not destroyed in Southern Spain


My guess would be that they would have run of out steam by Bohemia in the North/Northwest; but would have controlled all the region south of the Carpathians. Whether they would have been able to push southwards towards Venice is an open question.
The longer term  effect would have been vast changes in European history caused by loss of the Hapsburg heartlands -- and idle thought: the rise and sustainable dominance of Sweden as a Great Power in Northern Europe? And what would have been the effect of Ottoman sucess on the Reformation/  

As for Moorish Spain, it's hard to imagine a viable scenario where the Moors continue their control of southern Spain once the _Reconquesta _begins. Perhaps if they had chosen/managed to finish off the Visgothic slivers that survived in the far North early on -- then one could see maybe a prolonged crusade by the Franks(French) against the Moors in Northern Spain; particularly in the Catalonia region.

The problem with speculating on alternative histories is that we simply don't know all the consequences -- many likely to be things that we don't think of being directly connected. From the point of view of an author writing fiction it's easy to concentrate on a few interesting changes and ignore all the others (in fact, it is a necessity to do that, otherwise the story becomes far too tangled up).


----------



## The Ace

I'm always reminded of our American allies' single-handed victory in WW2.

   Imagine if the US Navy hadn't been at Dunkirk.
   What if the USAAF hadn't been involved in the Battle of Britain ?
   Could we live in a World where the Americans weren't involved in the sinking of the Bismark or the capture of the first Enigma machine ?
  And how about their brilliant intervention at EL Alamein.

  Wait aminute, the Yanks weren't involved in any of that, and we still managed.


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## C. Craig R. McNeil

The Ace said:


> I'm always reminded of our American allies' single-handed victory in WW2.
> 
> Imagine if the US Navy hadn't been at Dunkirk.
> What if the USAAF hadn't been involved in the Battle of Britain ?
> Could we live in a World where the Americans weren't involved in the sinking of the Bismark or the capture of the first Enigma machine ?
> And how about their brilliant intervention at EL Alamein.
> 
> Wait aminute, the Yanks weren't involved in any of that, and we still managed.



Are  you sure? There's been MILLIONS of Hollywood films showing the US winning the war single handedly. They can't be lying can they? Noooo.... They wouldn't would they?


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## What If WW2...

I really dont know what the idea of trowing rocks at the USA but what if Hitler had won the WW2 i allways wonder that or what if japan instead of goin to build stupid  ultrawave sound things to kill allied troops focused there jobs on the Nuclear Bomb.


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## The Ace

What If WW2... said:


> I really dont know what the idea of trowing rocks at the USA .


  'Cos that's what its there for.   Seriously, no-one should degrade the courage and commitment of the US contribution to WW2.  But the allied victory was a team effort, not the sole effort of any one nation (look at the suffering of the Soviets for example). On this side of the pond, we are sick of that kind of attitude, made even worse by  the downright lie of "U-571," and then the gross and unjustified insult of "The Patriot."
    Many British victories of WW2 were achieved with US help, I won't bother to deny that (the provision of 100-octane fuel to the RAF in 1940 was a classic example), though making good the debts incurred nearly crippled us, but Britain fought on every front where the US was engaged, not to mention the free Polish, French and Czech units and
dissafected Italians, all of whom fought and died for the allied cause.
   We just want the US to recognise that it was part of a team.


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## Spartan27

Here's one, suppose the Persians would have beaten the greeks....ooops ....no western civilization.......


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## Spartan27

I missed this one.....without the U.S. we wouldn't be having this very conversation.....


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## WhiteCrowUK

Spartan27 said:


> I missed this one.....without the U.S. we wouldn't be having this very conversation.....



I despute the much said line that without the US we Britains would all be speaking German by now by saying _"mitte keine Amerikaner ich sehr besser Deutsche sprachen"_ - or without American I'd speak better Germany now (_ish because I'm not that good at German as my grade U at O-level testifies_  )


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## Delvo

Pondering different outcomes of WWII is massively overplayed to the point of "boring", and rather unrealistic anyway.

My favorite one to ponder has been what if the Celts, or maybe some fellow Italics, had demolished Rome when it was still just a young city (which was once overrun by Celts but they just demanded gold and went home), preventing it from creating the empire. When I tried to carry that out step by step, I got a long chain of events that would take a long time to write out. I'll look it up again and see if I can return with a shortened version, or maybe just blat out the whole thing, thus making sure nobody here reads that post.


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## The Ace

Spartan27 said:


> Here's one, suppose the Persians would have beaten the greeks....ooops ....no western civilization.......


  Good point, that's something we can all agree on.


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## The Ace

Spartan27 said:


> I missed this one.....without the U.S. we wouldn't be having this very conversation.....


  Let's meet up for a barbecue, we can use the pork we fetch down from the trees .


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## SpaceShip

One of the funniest short films I've seen is in the Blackadder series, where Blackadder has a time machine and goes back to different high spots in the past and everything gets changed - hilarious!  Worth a watch.


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## Dave

SpaceShip said:


> One of the funniest short films I've seen is in the Blackadder series, where Blackadder has a time machine and goes back to different high spots in the past and everything gets changed - hilarious!  Worth a watch.


That was specially made to be shown at the Millennium Dome Exhibition in 2000. I saw it twice then but not since. It has since been shown on Sky One (and possibly the BBC), but I missed it. I wish I could see it again.


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## Spartan27

It's good to see such a welcoming support to a "Yank"....how about this, when wwIII starts over there, I'll be having a BBQ with my good friend Ace.

However, I think as one said it...we are on the same team and not one country did it all in wwII.


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## WhiteCrowUK

Delvo said:


> Pondering different outcomes of WWII is massively overplayed to the point of "boring", and rather unrealistic anyway.



I think one of the problems with the alternate reality is that it's always easier if people know the history period a little more intimately.  World War II has the benefit of being a period that everyone knows roughly about - although there are always polls showing that 60% of kids don't know who won!


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## CrwfrdCM

Hi Everyone 

I have one scenerio what if columbus never made it to the americas Lost at sea, or the indians saw them as a threat and just killed them. and then there is the matter of columbus's ships either burned or the natives kept them

Chirs


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## Ice fyre

The blackader back and fourth I think it was called is available on the complete Black adder Dvd set. I picked it up for twenty five quid, all the specials are on it. Also when you think about it the first Blackadder was kind of an alternate history.


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## The Ace

Oh come on, Ice, everybody knows Henry Tudor cooked the books to make it look like he won at Bosworth.


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## Ice fyre

I do remmber a phrase something about the victors writing history?


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## chord0

for a good author on alternate history see books by Poul Anderson
chord0


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## Littlethief

Hi guys im new here but I have a alternete histroy idea
Back in the 11 century(I think) china started building gigantic trading ships. After 50 years the emperor decided to stop building these ships.  Would would have happened if he had decided not to?


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## The Ace

Thanks, Littlethief,  we _really _needed to look at that one.

A Chinese empire in the Pacific, probably crushing the Mongols and preventing the rise of Japan and dealing with the West on equal terms.

A dynamic, curious and strong empire replacing an arrogant, isolated and weak mess.   Uh, what British Empire ?


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## Ursa major

Or an empire so obsessed by the world that was open to it across the sea that it neglected its land borders and fell even faster to the Mongols.


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## Littlethief

thanks guys but ive thoght up some more scenearios 
What if abraham linclon hadn't been shot 
What If there had been a warer climate Around the time of erick the red and instead of just going to newfoundland had went farther down the coast


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## old wallie

The WW2 scenario where the US doesn't get involved in Europe would more logically end up with a western armistice with much of France, Italy, and other assorted parts of Europe in German hands, with large parts of eastern Europe controlled  by  Russia.
The peace would be forced on Germany  by  Russia.  

The Luther scenerio was promoted by the movable type printing press.  Printers were always looking for things to print, that would sell.  A church contraversey  was  just  the  ticket  for  sales.  Without the printing  press, Luther's bitching would be a footnote in church history.

David Drakes' "Belsarius" series is a real blend of alternate history and science fiction and a fun read.


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## JoanDrake

WI Alexander had lived and conquered the world?

He could have, he was only 32 when he died and he was never defeated.

What would the world be like today if China, India, Persia, Scythia and even Europe had all come under one man in 330BCE?


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