# NASA announces possibility of life on Enceladus



## Danny McG (Apr 13, 2017)

We'll find out what's lurking on Saturn..
Nasa to make major announcement about Saturn and alien life

My guess is an invasion fleet of magic ducks


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## mosaix (Apr 13, 2017)

Here's hoping... 

I'm 71 now and I've always hoped something significant would happen in my lifetime. 

They'd better get on with it.


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## Dave (Apr 13, 2017)

You okay to hang on for one hour more? 

Water is the key to Life (as we know it, Jim.)


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## mosaix (Apr 13, 2017)

Dave said:


> You okay to hang on for one hour more?
> 
> Water is the key to Life (as we know it, Jim.)


I suppose another hour won't make much difference. But I have been waiting for a very long time.


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## tinkerdan (Apr 13, 2017)

I suspect it is mostly going to be updating where they are and where they are heading in regards to the search for water on other planetary features.
However; who knows? maybe they'll have something more concrete for us to contemplate.


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## Brian G Turner (Apr 13, 2017)

dannymcg said:


> We'll find out what's lurking on Saturn..
> Nasa to make major announcement about Saturn and alien life
> 
> My guess is an invasion fleet of magic ducks



The linked article has been updated, and they're now suggesting that they have indirect evidence of life on Enceladus:



> It might look like a frozen wasteland, but beneath the inhospitable surface of Saturn’s moon Enceladus, life could be thriving in warm underground seas, scientists believe.
> 
> 
> ...
> ...


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## Danny McG (Apr 13, 2017)

Brian. Thanks for update on this, I was gonna go to NASA site but no need now.
Bit disappointing IMO - thought there'd have at least been micro organism proof of alien life.
Oh well, back to waiting (sigh)


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## Brian G Turner (Apr 13, 2017)

I've also changed the thread title, as NASA are pretty much sticking their necks out here to claim there is almost certainly life on Enceladus, probably based on geothermal systems we have on Earth.


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## Brian G Turner (Apr 13, 2017)

And now the BBC reports on it:
Saturn moon 'able to support life' - BBC News


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## mosaix (Apr 13, 2017)

Hydrogen found in the plumes from geo-thermal vents on Enceladus therebye adding energy to already known water and chemical building blocks.


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## Lumens (Apr 13, 2017)

Very interesting indeed! How will they be able to confirm this though? I assume they would have to land on Enceladus to verify it, which could take a while...


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## Brian G Turner (Apr 13, 2017)

It's not a big moon, though:
Enceladus - Wikipedia






However, inevitably people are now talking a lot about Europe. And imagine that - a moon big enough not only to support life, but also different ecosystems? I don't think anyone's suggested that before.


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## Dave (Apr 13, 2017)

So, nothing crawling around then, just some "tantalising" evidence of molecular Hշ. 

I think they are afraid to stick their necks out too far after the martian meteorite announcements, but given that this came from _Cassini_, it will be a long while to wait before they can study it any further.


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## Phyrebrat (Apr 13, 2017)

Dave said:


> ...it will be a long while to wait before they can study it any further.



Or never, if they've seen _Europa Report_. 

pH


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## tinkerdan (Apr 14, 2017)

I say we study it now while it's hanging so close to the British Isles.


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## thaddeus6th (Apr 14, 2017)

Tinkerdan, some say its sentient overlords have come to help assist with UK-EU negotiations.

On a more serious note, finding life would be fascinating. But also increase the chance of impending doom. The problem is the Great Filter, a theoretical barrier that could explain the Fermi Paradox (ie a great problem for life to overcome, because, otherwise, where is it?). Posted similar around the time of a discovery on Mars:

Thaddeus the Sixth: The Fermi Paradox and the Great Filter

Edited extra bit: removed wrongful apostrophe from 'its' and will now flog myself for sinfulness.


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## Phyrebrat (Apr 14, 2017)

Nice blog. I learnt something(s) today! Thanks. 

pH


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## nixie (Apr 14, 2017)

Now I will likely come across as stupid but we are under the impression that for life to be possible oxygen and water is needed.

We Base this assumption on life on planet earth but who is to say that some life forms don't need other things to survive?
What we consider posioness gas maybe the stuff others need, too hot, maybe not for other species.

There maybe alien life forms studying earth, theorising that it can't support life, all that water, oxygen etc would be to toxic.

Now I'll sit back and wait for someone to appear with a straitjacket and take me away.


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## Ursa major (Apr 14, 2017)

thaddeus6th said:


> Tinkerdan, some say its sentient overlords have come to help assist with UK-EU negotiations.


May I suggest that they wouldn't even have to come from the vicinity of Saturn to run rungs round us....


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## Brian G Turner (Apr 14, 2017)

nixie said:


> oxygen and water



New Scientist perhaps explains it better:
Cassini finds final ingredient for alien life in Enceladus’s sea

Quote:
Some of Earth’s oldest microorganisms, called methanogens, are often found near hydrothermal vents where, deprived of light and oxygen, they convert hydrogen and carbon dioxide to methane.


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## thaddeus6th (Apr 14, 2017)

Np, Phyrebrat. I knew of the Fermi Paradox already but (at the time) learnt from someone else about the Great Filter. It was quite an odd moment.

"We've found signs of potential life on Mars, hooray!"

"You do realise that, statistically, finding this makes the total annihilation of the human race more likely?"

"Don't be silly, how does... oh. Right. Bugger."

Nixie, I know where you're coming from. I'd guess that we can only use what we know for certain as a basis for predictions of life outside our own planet, and keep an open mind about the Giant Space Pig Monster.

On Earth being toxic, any species stupid enough to find water dangerous would never come here. Perhaps excepting a few hours in badly written Hollywood nonsense.


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## Stephen Palmer (Apr 15, 2017)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...


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## Brian G Turner (Jun 27, 2018)

Following on from this, organic compounds have apparently been observed on Enceladus by the Cassini probe - but frustratingly, the BBC report doesn't mention which ones:

Saturn moon a step closer to hosting life


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## Venusian Broon (Jun 27, 2018)

The Guardian writing up is slightly more detailed:

Ocean spray on Saturn moon contains crucial constituents for life

Highlights include: 

"German and US scientists found tell-tale signs of organic molecules far more complex than amino acids and 10 times heavier than methane in data gathered by Nasa's Cassini probe"

and 

"But a small proportion, about 1%, are rich in organic molecules containing carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and potentially nitrogen too. Some were made up of hundreds of atoms."

I believe only molecules with masses of 50 atomic mass units (amu) had been identified before. (Methane for example is ~16amu) The actual paper states they've found molecules now with masses over 200amu, so perhaps the journalists have got this confused, 'cause that doesn't mean 'hundreds of atoms' 

However if you want to actually check what the researchers actually said - for _full _detail...

Macromolecular organic compounds from the depths of Enceladus | Nature

The main point I can glean from a very quick overview of the paper is that the instrument making the analysis uses time-of-flight to measure the mass of the cation or material falling in. So you can measure the total mass of the cation, but you have to make guesses at exactly what sort of cation is making the signal. You can't quite pinpoint what it is exactly, just a measurement of its mass.


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## Vertigo (Jun 28, 2018)

One slightly worrying aspect to this is that the more the Enceladus ocean environment shows similarities to our own ocean environment (hydrothermal vents etc.) the more we will expect to find life which in turn would vastly increase the probability of finding life elsewhere. On the other hand if Enceladus proves to have an environment significantly similar to our oceans and we _*don't*_ find any life then we have a second environment conducive to life that doesn't have any and that could put a big damper on the old argument that where there can be life there will be. One of the strongest arguments for the likelihood of life being common out there.

Remember that all those discussions we've being having in other threads about the probabilities of alien life are stalled because we only have one example; that is one example of life _and _one example of a life friendly environment.

So fingers crossed that we do eventually find microbes of some sort.


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## Venusian Broon (Jun 28, 2018)

Vertigo said:


> So fingers crossed that we do eventually find microbes of some sort.



Actually I think either answer - life/no life - would be fascinating and extremely interesting in it's own way. 

However if I were a betting man, I'd put a fiver on them finding life of some sort*. I'm not sure exactly _when _they will be able to search for it, so I would probably lose that fiver no matter what.  

-------------------------------

* I tried to have a look to see if the bookies have weird markets - such as odd on alien life being proven - apparently they do but I can't find them online


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## Stephen Palmer (Jun 28, 2018)

I agree with VB.
We can't tell on no data!


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