# Waterstones, WHSmith etc etc



## Lacedaemonian (Sep 10, 2004)

Buying science fiction or fantasy books is so problematic these days.  Waterstones, my usual bookstore since the close of Dillons in 1994, does not appear to be ordering in new SF/F works.  I phone up ask if a book is out. Yes. Have you got it in stock? No, but you can order it.  Do I need to pay for the book first?  Yes.  This of course defeats the purpose of buying the book from a shop, you might as well buy straight from the publisher.

Also, the SF/F section in Waterstones has shrunk by half, whereas in the past it was given a large corner of the store.  It was noted that when I was last in the store that several people were browsing the now congested SF/F section, and only a hand full of people were spread out throughout the rest of the store.

A Sword of Red Ice by JV Jones is out but they do not have a copy in store.  Exile's Return by Raymond E Feist has just come in store a week after The Master had probably finished reading the book.    

Is SF/F not popular?  Amazon will be getting all of my funds from now on.


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## dwndrgn (Sep 10, 2004)

It's all relative.  The purchaser for each store bases their purchases on actual sales/requests/pre-orders etc. so that supposedly they should be purchasing what their current demand is.  However, there are glitches in this system so making sure that they are aware that they aren't keeping up in that area is good.  This is the perfect time to use something like http://www.planetfeedback.com to send them the message publicly.  If you don't want to do it that way, a nice note sent to them via email or snail should at the very least alert them to the issue.  Whether they then fix it or not is another problem.  But, at the very least you should get an explanation of why the shrinkage (perhaps so many people started buying sff on amazon and like places that they couldn't justify keeping that many in stock).


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## Silk (Sep 10, 2004)

dwndrgn said:
			
		

> (perhaps so many people started buying sff on amazon and like places that they couldn't justify keeping that many in stock).


Its probably very true, I don't think I've bought an SF/F book from an actual bookstore in years! Amazon and other stores are so much more convenient and with the discovery of Greenmetropolis.com, which sells second hand books at £3.75 each!, if you can find the one you want its totally uneconomical to drive/catch bus into town buy a book at marked price and then drive/catch bus all the way home again!

But on the flip side the reason I started this method of buying was because I couldn't guarantee that the book I wanted was in the store anyway


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## Lacedaemonian (Sep 10, 2004)

However, new works by the biggest authors should justify a several copies on the shelves.  In the good old days new books would be given a stand or at least a table top position.


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## Rane Longfox (Sep 10, 2004)

This is due mainly to the media view of sci-fi and fantasy these days, IMHO (ie. hack'n'slash or shoot'n'hack'n'slash). The three bookshops where I live for example, have about 5 columns of shelves for the genres between them, and one of those columns is Tolkien, while another is Terry Pratchett, leaving hardly any room for the massive amount of quality literature that should be on there...

(I generally find Ottakers better than Waterstones in this respect though)


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## Lacedaemonian (Sep 10, 2004)

But surely sales decide these matters?


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## Silk (Sep 10, 2004)

I think it probably still roots back with the fact a bookstore isn't the only way for the public to buy books.

With that much competition and internet sites being able to undercut the prices by a minimum of 10% and 50% in a lot of cases, the high street store is forced to place all it energy into books it knows it can sell in high volume, like harry potter and the lateset faze of romantic comedies or whatever the hell they are.

Unfortunatly, as has been pointed out in another thread here recently, SF/F has a bit of a stigma around it that its only for a very few people if not only for children in which case I can imagin bookstores passing it over for more profitable oppertunities


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## Silk (Sep 10, 2004)

caladanbrood said:
			
		

> This is due mainly to the media view of sci-fi and fantasy these days, IMHO (ie. hack'n'slash or shoot'n'hack'n'slash). The three bookshops where I live for example, have about 5 columns of shelves for the genres between them, and one of those columns is Tolkien, while another is Terry Pratchett, leaving hardly any room for the massive amount of quality literature that should be on there...


I have the exact same shelves in my local store!!


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## Rane Longfox (Sep 10, 2004)

Silk makes a fair point, quite a few of the happy shoppers who would be buying sci-fi and fantasy books from bookshops probably bum around on forums like this, and find it easier to buy their books off Amazon or EBay...


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## Brian G Turner (Sep 10, 2004)

Silk said:
			
		

> With that much competition and internet sites being able to undercut the prices by a minimum of 10% and 50% in a lot of cases, the high street store is forced to place all it energy into books it knows it can sell in high volume, like harry potter and the lateset faze of romantic comedies or whatever the hell they are.


 That sounds unfortunately close to truth.


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## Lacedaemonian (Sep 11, 2004)

If I had a book published I would be devastated not to see my book in Waterstones.  Waterstones weak attachment to Amazon is also hillarious.  I use to love browsing their shelves too.


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## littlemissattitude (Sep 11, 2004)

Must be nice to get to go into a bookstore once in awhile.  The town I live in, which is very small, doesn't have a bookstore at all.  The two decent-sized bookstores in Fresno (Barnes and Noble and Borders) are clear on the far other side of town from me, and so are about a 50 to 60 mile round trip to get there and home again.  Needless to say, I don't do that much.  Last time I was in those stores, though, their selections were adequate but not really wonderful.  Way too many series books (Star Trek, Babylon 5, Dragonlance, and like that) for my taste.

I did go into a smaller chain bookstore (Waldenbooks) a couple of weeks ago, as I got a gift card from there for my birthday.  Their selection of science fiction and fantasy was pretty poor, and the fantasy I bought ("The Scar") was not even in the science fiction/fantasy section.  Of course, they don't have a huge selection in any section, and their non-fiction selections (aside from self-help books and religious books - although it isn't a religious bookstore) were even poorer than the fiction sections.


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## Lacedaemonian (Sep 11, 2004)

There are two Waterstones fifty meters appart in Newcastle, both of them massive stores.  Howevever, I generally shop in the Metrocentre these days as it is more friendly toward scooters.


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## Rane Longfox (Sep 11, 2004)

wow, that sucks lma 


the only good bookshop I have seen for sci-fi and fantasy sections (two seperat sections mind!) is the Waterstones directly opposite the Chemical Engineering building at UCL, where I may well be going to uni. On the other hand, I know that if I do go there I will probably spend far too much money on books...


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## Silk (Sep 11, 2004)

caladanbrood said:
			
		

> if I do go there I will probably spend far too much money on books...


but if you're that close you could get a job there and read all the books for free under the pretext that you're reviewing them to increase customer satisfaction!


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## igneouscarl (Sep 11, 2004)

Hello all,

I work at an Ottakar's bookshop (I will refraim from saying which one as I'm not a big fan of the company), its one of the smallest branches but you might be interested in how we choose what to stock. 

For SF&Fantasy we see reps- such as Orion (who give me nice new proofs- like the next Stephen Donaldson, yay). They then go through a list of new titles and we choose what we want based on hardback sales, predicted sales and the author etc. We also have huge new titles lists to see whats being published and is upcoming. It's difficult to represent everything but its definately one of the bigger selling sections - next to general fiction and childrens. 

I've noticed that a large part of fantasy is coming from children orientated markets-such as _His Dark Materials, Abhorsen _and _the edge chronicles_. I think these series are breathing a new life into the genre and encouraging far more readers than before. 

It's not good on the wallet (or my maxed out student overdraft) to work in a bookshop.  Ban internet bookshops!


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## Bladerunner (Sep 11, 2004)

Waterstones, Smiths etc

Having been into SF/F for some thirty odd years, I personally believe that the situation at present is better than it has ever been. We as the buying public have more choice today, whether we want to go and be pushed around down the high street or sit in comfort and order of one of the many sites.

I would have to admit that I'm fairly lucky as I find myself in a number of towns: Stafford, Potteries, Telford, Burton, Tamworth, etc during the week. I usually manage to make time and have a ganders round the book shops. Although I would agree there is alot more they could do to appeal to our market, at least most of the outlets do give our favourite arena some space. I myself, usually get into Waterstones finding them the better. 

So I can only say please lets continue to encourage the improvement I have seen from the retail outlets over the last ... years. I hope the power of the pound doesn't make bookshop owners/managers stagnate.


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## The Master™ (Sep 11, 2004)

I gotta say that the shops in Leeds - Waterstones (two of them), Borders and WH Smith have been terrible for new stuff... They don't get it in immediately, you have to order it...

And then there is the COST!!!

Amazon is a damn sight cheaper, and even with the P&P I can get books a lot cheaper, okay it may be a couple of days for delivery, but what the hey!!!

I also like the fact that Amazon will not take your money until they dispatch the item... So no paying up front...


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## Lacedaemonian (Sep 11, 2004)

Just had my first negative encounter with Amazon.  I had pre ordered Legend graphic novel, I received an email saying that my pre order had been cancelled as the time allocation had past.  I received a really tatty copy of Legend today to my surprise.  So I check out my old emails.  Right at the bottom of the email, the expiry date clearly said 31.09.04, but at the top of the email it suggested that the time had past.  My fault in the end, but now I have a tatty copy of Legend sitting next to a perfect signed copy of the same book.  Bummer.


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## Lacedaemonian (Sep 11, 2004)

Actually Brian you can have the copy mate if you want it.  PM or Email me and I will send it your way.  Beautiful book but tatty cover.  It appears to have been stolen from a library, and I paid £20 for it.


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## Princess Ivy (Sep 12, 2004)

I tend to find older SFF in stores such as Smiths and Waterstones. They're great for replacing worn out copies of my faves. But I agree, they only seem to stock a very small selection. Much of it TV adaptations (sorry personal gripe, I give them a perfectly good titles and authors list every year, but someone will always give me a Buffy book, grrr). Most of my shopping is through Amazon, although, strangely enough, The works (the publishers clearance house) has had a couple of Prattchetts, Eddings types. Also local supermakets often have copies of the best sellers list and any SFF on it (Picked up the Amazing Maurice at Sainsburrys and seen a couple of others). Another fave of mine is charity shops. I don't know, second hand books have such an appeal to me.


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## kimmyj (Sep 12, 2004)

I'm a member of the Fantasy and SF book club. www.fsf.co.uk

I get all my favourite authors as soon as they come out and I don't need to leave the comfort of my own home.  

It's one of them deals where you get loads of mega cheap books when you join, and then I think you have to agree to buy so many books per year. (I don't have to do that any more cos I've been a member for a while)

However, it's not all good.  
It can work out quite expensive (even when you go for the special offers and editor's choice etc). P & P is 3 quid per order!


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## The Master™ (Sep 12, 2004)

I've done the "book of the month club" stuff... Got a little frustrating having to buy so many books a year and all the rest...

I could go months or even years without buying anything, then in one month I could buy twelve...

Prefer the Amazon road - only ever had one problem in 30 or 40 orders...


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## Lacedaemonian (Sep 13, 2004)

Brian do you want the book mate?


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## Rane Longfox (Sep 15, 2004)

I take back my comments about Ottakers being better, I went into our local branch the other day to ask about future releases, and found out that they wouldn't have either Mieville's "Iron Council" or R. Scott Bakker's "Warrior Prophet" in stock when they are released, and I would have to pay EXTRA to order them!!! 'Scuse my french, but bugger that, I'm going to Waterstones instead in future...


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## deadeye (Dec 8, 2004)

hey poeple,
i don't know if anyone will still follow this thread, it's been awhile since the last post on it.
thing is, i work for waterstones, and i have a really tough time with ordering.
i read the post by the ottakers employee, and just want to say you're the lucky one!
the way my store works is the whole shop is divided in to it's genre sections, and every bookseller is given at least 1 genre to take care of. i have always had an interest in sff, so this section, along with horror, was given to me. i am responsible for ordering, merchandising and promoting my sections. and the draw back is... i'm not allowed to see any of the reps because i'm only a grade 2 bookseller. so i can order, but i have to do it using only what information i can get off the internet. which leaves me in the same position you guys are in. no advanced copies, no sneak previews, no sales forecasts.
i have recently been contacting publishers directly, and with good results, but i still feel that i am missing out on certain new books.
so the long and short of it is - if you feel your local bookshop is missing something, tell them! i always welcome other people's input.
i was thinking of having a queries and comments box in my section to help incourage people to get more involved. does this sound like a good idea? would anyone actually respond to it?
let me know!


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## Leto (Dec 8, 2004)

*note to self* never again complain about bookstores here. At least, we have choice.

deadeye, a query and comment box is a great idea. The boss of my own bookstore (ok, one of the 5 I'm regulary browsing), usually take time to chat with customers (regular and one-timer alike) to ask then what are they looking for in shelves, what type do they like, etc.?. The results ? He has now more choice and less leftovers books. And he recently had a "post-it" epidemy. When he or his employees (2) like a book, they put a quick note about it directly on the shelves. It's bright and very eye-catching for the customers (and expensive too). I'm not sure a chain company would allow this but that could be a good idea to follow.


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## Jayaprakash Satyamurthy (Dec 8, 2004)

A suggestion book would certainly be good in any bookstore. The important thing is to make sure the follow through is good - that you call back if a book someone asked for comes in. That'll ensure people have faith in the suggestion book idea - I tend to be quite skeptical about whether anyone acutally reads these things when I see one in a book or music store. 

I have to say that the sf/f book scene here in India has improved a *lot* in the past year.


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## deadeye (Dec 8, 2004)

Leto said:
			
		

> *note to self* never again complain about bookstores here. At least, we have choice.
> 
> deadeye, a query and comment box is a great idea. The boss of my own bookstore (ok, one of the 5 I'm regulary browsing), usually take time to chat with customers (regular and one-timer alike) to ask then what are they looking for in shelves, what type do they like, etc.?. The results ? He has now more choice and less leftovers books. And he recently had a "post-it" epidemy. When he or his employees (2) like a book, they put a quick note about it directly on the shelves. It's bright and very eye-catching for the customers (and expensive too). I'm not sure a chain company would allow this but that could be a good idea to follow.



that is certainly a good idea. i already write little reviews of things i've read recently and stick them under the book itself. we get provided with some ready made by "the company", but in a fit of rebellious spontaniaty i tore most of mine up and wrote my own. at the moment there's a drive to make shops more individual within the chain, so i can do pretty much anything i like - but that was our most recent regional manager's idea. we've had 3 in less than a year, so what might be considered inavative and imaginative one day, is just a flagrant breach of protical by next month!


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## Mark Robson (Dec 8, 2004)

deadeye said:
			
		

> that is certainly a good idea. i already write little reviews of things i've read recently and stick them under the book itself. we get provided with some ready made by "the company", but in a fit of rebellious spontaniaty i tore most of mine up and wrote my own. at the moment there's a drive to make shops more individual within the chain, so i can do pretty much anything i like - but that was our most recent regional manager's idea. we've had 3 in less than a year, so what might be considered inavative and imaginative one day, is just a flagrant breach of protical by next month!


Out of interest, which chain do you work for, Deadeye?


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## dwndrgn (Dec 8, 2004)

He works for Waterstones - see post above ;-)


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## deadeye (Dec 8, 2004)

waterstones.

hurray.

and i'm lady. with a lady's clothes and everything.


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## dwndrgn (Dec 8, 2004)

deadeye said:
			
		

> waterstones.
> 
> hurray.
> 
> and i'm lady. with a lady's clothes and everything.


Dang.  Sorry about that.  Congrats about the clothes though


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