# Military Science Fiction



## psikeyhackr (Apr 8, 2022)

I was on another message board, not about science fiction, talking to a former marine about various stuff and decided to suggest a book about Terran Marines. Is it once a marine always a marine?

So in the process of searching for a decent review I found:






						Military Sci-Fi Book Reviews – "The places I've been; the things I've seen!" – Jim C.
					






					militarysci-fibookreviews.com
				




I have never seen it before.

I assumed that there might be a military sci-fi thread to add this to and found there really wasn't just a general MilSF thread. Now there is. I sent him this:






						“The Empire’s Corps” – Military Sci-Fi Book Reviews
					






					militarysci-fibookreviews.com
				




So I figure it's just about anybody saying whatever they want about Mil SF books, there are a few of them.


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## Danny McG (Apr 8, 2022)

An interesting link, cheers.

I'll probably spend hours poring over the reviews and then see how much I can spend!


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 8, 2022)

Danny McG said:


> An interesting link, cheers.
> 
> I'll probably spend hours poring over the reviews and then see how much I can spend!


He does not seem to have it set up to search by author. Somewhat annoying. I will have to try a Google site search.


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## worldofmutes (Apr 8, 2022)

Greetings human,
I’ve read a review on this site, and am assuming milSF is the current trend in SF nerdom. I have never read something like this, but they look great on my Kindle… I’ll have to check one of them out.

So on front page of earthling year +2022(^) I read one review by Weil, Raymond L. about the book, “War in the Confederacy”.

<quote>The humans from Earth had defeated two different armadas from the Confederation to the astonishment of the Morag who are the leading aliens of the Confederation. They have had an iron grip on the Confederation for thousands of year due to their hidden physic abilities. Now that the other alien races know they have been manipulated by the Morag, they have either withdrawn from the Confederation or are on very guarded terms with their former ally. The Lormallians for one, were extremely upset about the Morag’s physic control over the Grand Council and started looking into their past history to see how the Morag has changed the Lormallian culture without them knowing it was being done. They then invented a physic nullifies which would protect any Lormallian that came in contact with a Morag. The Lormallians also told the other alien races of the Grand Council what they found out and offered the nullifies to everyone. Soon, the Council could no longer be mentally controlled by the Morag. This definitely made the Morag mad.</quote>

This almost sounds like Warcraft’s Horde, on an alien planet with a weaving of fantasy. It sounds like something I could dig into, but might look around for other options. I’ll keep on eye on this thread for it’s contribution and see if I find something good. (Why don’t we have a “Spock” emote?)


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## Rodders (Apr 8, 2022)

Danny, have your read T.C. McCarthy's "Subterrene" trilogy (Germline, Exogene and Chimera)? I found them to be very good.


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## reiver33 (Apr 8, 2022)

I’m going through the reviews, but what look like menu tabs are inert via my old iPad, as is the Facebook icon. Can you actually request for a book to be reviewed?


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## Danny McG (Apr 8, 2022)

Rodders said:


> Danny, have your read T.C. McCarthy's "Subterrene" trilogy (Germline, Exogene and Chimera)? I found them to be very good.


Yeah, I enjoyed them too


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## Foxbat (Apr 8, 2022)

Possibly  worth mentioning that one of the authors reviewed (Nathan Hystad aka Ratsy) used to frequent this place. Haven’t seen him in a while (probably too busy writing).


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## Margaret Note Spelling (Apr 8, 2022)

worldofmutes said:


> am assuming milSF is the current trend in SF nerdom


Well, I can't speak to whether that's the case, but I do know milSF's been around for a while, comparatively--Timothy Zahn wrote Blackcollar and Cobra in the eighties, Stargate SG-1 started in the nineties, and if you _really_ want to stretch both terms to the point of snapping altogether, Star Trek itself was military scifi.

I like this thread. Military scifi is one of my favorite subgenres, and many of my stories are going to be crafted around it, at least setting-wise.


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## Foxbat (Apr 8, 2022)

I haven’t read a huge amount of military SF but I find Gordon R Dickson’s Dorsai books  quite enjoyable.


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## The Crawling Chaos (Apr 8, 2022)

I'll share this website then: Writing Military SF

It's full of useful info about military tactics, equipment and lingo, written by a former Marine. He also put a book out called Writing Military SF a few years ago.


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## Parson (Apr 8, 2022)

Good grief! I thought I liked MilSF. This guy is just short of crazy. He's reading a huge amount of MilSF. I've read a couple of his reviews and for me they are a bit too detailed. I don't like reviews that give away a lot of the plot and action, and the couple I've read border on that. I searched for a book I've read --- And in that huge amount of books I had to go 3-4 screens deep. --- And I thought he was fair in what he said and obviously read the book, and both knows and enjoys the genre. I'll likely return from time to time just to see what's he's found, and *maybe* read the review.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 10, 2022)

The Google search doesn't seem to work well with this site.

Weber site:<site URL>

usually turns up pages that use "Weber" but I got hits that didn't have his name and Safehold book reviews didn't turn up. I have not found any Honor Harrington book reviews.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 10, 2022)

The Empire's Corp series, that triggered this, is pretty good in my opinion. It does have rather much sexual harassment/violence and innuendo.  I could see that turning a lot of potential readers off so be warned.  It has a college professor exiled from Earth with the marines comparable to Hari Seldon in Asimov's Foundation. 

Most of the books center on Avalon but the series has space pirates, renegade Empire officers revolting to start their own interstellar satrapies to attack Avalon, etc.  Everything we need to know to prepare for the global collapse of civilization. 

I think *The Outcast* #5 is my favorite in the series so far. A girl escapes from an Islamic planet to eventually start a interstellar cartel. Lots of economics.


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## Swank (Apr 10, 2022)

MilSF is such a strange branch of SF because it is so anachronistic. Seems like we are only a decade or so away from the elimination of infantry, yet all this fiction dedicated to people with rifles. I've read plenty of it that was enjoyable, but it is like the SF of leather tanning.

I think there is a recycling quality to SF, where we love to repurpose adventures, like of the high seas or Westerns, giving us Star Trek and Firefly.


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## Rodders (Apr 10, 2022)

Even warfare is circular. 

Besides, the infantryman will always be in demand. We still use the Trebuchet in the form of Artillery.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 10, 2022)

Rodders said:


> Besides, the infantryman will always be in demand.


Golf cart sized Bolos with machine guns. 
They don't sleep they don't get bored,  don't smoke.  How would infantryman do against a swarm of Bolos?

Tell all of the civilians to clear out of a certain area and program Bolos to kill every human in the area after the time limit.  Could these short range antitank missiles get passed computer controlled radar directed machine guns?


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## Vladd67 (Apr 10, 2022)

Technology is wonderful but there will always be a need for boots on the ground.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 10, 2022)

Michael McCollum has two military sci-fi trilogies. I read the first two books of the Antares trilogy back in the 80s. Then the b*****d didn't publish the 3rd book for 15 years. Shouldn't there be some kind of literary criminal charge for that? I had stopped looking for the book and almost forgotten him by then.

The second series is Gibraltar Stars. Less direct confrontation than the first, more maneuver and psychology. McCollum is an aeronautical engineer so except for the FTL the ships are rather realistic.  He imagines 3 different FTL systems. The two different systems in Gibraltar Stars figure prominently in the story.






						The Antares Series by Michael McCollum
					

Antares Dawn (Antares #1), Antares Passage (Antares #2), Antares Victory (Antares #3), and Der Antares Krieg



					www.goodreads.com
				









						Gibraltar Stars Series by Michael McCollum
					

Gibraltar Earth, Gibraltar Sun, and Gibraltar Stars



					www.goodreads.com
				




McCollum's stories come across as very serious compared to Raymond Weil's. Weil's writing seems kind of "space operaish" to me, entertaining but shallow. Evil aliens kill off hundreds of millions or billions at the drop of a hat. Don't know, who cares about counting.


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## Foxbat (Apr 11, 2022)

Being a lover of all things naval, I enjoyed the Lost Fleet series up to a point but it ultimately just became a massively, unnecessarily dragged out story line and I eventually thought ‘enough! Doesn’t this author know that a book should consist of a beginning, middle and _end_?’ It didn’t help that there was little or no character development.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 11, 2022)

Foxbat said:


> Being a lover of all things naval, I enjoyed the Lost Fleet series up to a point but it ultimately just became a massively, unnecessarily dragged out story line and I eventually thought ‘enough! Doesn’t this author know that a book should consist of a beginning, middle and _end_?’ It didn’t help that there was little or no character development.



Don't you know that Black Jack Geary is unstoppable?


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## Pyan (Apr 11, 2022)

If you want something a little lighter, but still Military SF (Space Navy) try _With the Lightnings_, the first of a series by David Drake regarding the rise of Lt Daniel Leary, Royal Cinnabar Navy.

When it comes down to it, most books by Weber, Drake, Ringo, Moon or Turtledove are fertile hunting ground for MSF seekers...


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## Rodders (Apr 11, 2022)

I agree, Foxbat. I also struggled with the idea that naval strategy had suffered because so many were lost that they "forgot" manoeuvres. 

I thought that that Walter Jon William's "Dread Empire's Fall" was a decent series too. The space combat is similar to The Lost Fleet, but i felt the characters were better.


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## BAYLOR (Apr 13, 2022)

Warhammer 40k is some of the best military science fiction ive ever read.


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## Toby Frost (Apr 13, 2022)

I think that rather depends on who is writing it...

There's a core of silliness and parody to Warhammer 40k that I think some of the more recent stuff misses (they are literally shooting demons and space elves, after all). When it started, it was rather like a 2000AD comic strip (and definitely influenced by them), and some of that sly, mocking quality has been lost.

My main issue with military SF is that so much of it is clearly a real-world army "but in space". I've seen the US marines, Nelson's navy, Spartans, SS, basically anyone that fans get fixated on as being hard - but in space. I find it hard to suspend belief that in the year 9,000 a bunch of guys who talk and train just like Delta Force would be shooting aliens house-to-house in Space Iraq without it being tongue in cheek.

EDIT: in fairness, I should say that SF films are full of anachronistic and downright silly designs, characters, equipment and tactics - I just find it harder to swallow in print.


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## Rodders (Apr 13, 2022)

I get what you mean, Toby.

My first experience of WH40k was the Founding. In the first book someone gets hit with a bit of shrapnel in battle. Later in the book a deamon bursts out of the guy. I almost put it down then. Glad I didn't but crikey, it was close. My experience since has been nothing but fun.


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## Toby Frost (Apr 13, 2022)

The other thing that makes me wary is that, outside Warhammer, a lot of military SF seems to be highly politicised in a way that isn't relevant to me, by people who wouldn't like me on principle. I'm not going to say any more on this because of forum rules, but I don't want to read books by people who would regard me with contempt, for whatever reason.


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## Pyan (Apr 13, 2022)

My personal problem with Warhammer (and White Dwarf, for that matter) is that as time goes on each 'civilisation'/species/race gets more OTT weapons, armour, powers, etc, until they call a halt and then start a _new_ set of 'civilisations'/species/races at a simpler level, and the whole cycle repeats.


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## Vladd67 (Apr 13, 2022)

Rodders said:


> I get what you mean, Toby.
> 
> My first experience of WH40k was the Founding. In the first book someone gets hit with a bit of shrapnel in battle. Later in the book a deamon bursts out of the guy. I almost put it down then. Glad I didn't but crikey, it was close. My experience since has been nothing but fun.


In one of the Gaunt's Ghosts books, possibly the first one, one of the troopers is injured by a piece of a statue in a chaos temple and is shortly corrupted into a chaos beast.


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## Rodders (Apr 13, 2022)

That's the one. I thought it was a little silly at the time, but it was my first experience with the 40k universe and i pushed on. (I hate DNFing a book)


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## Parson (Apr 14, 2022)

Pyan said:


> is that as time goes on each 'civilisation'/species/race gets more OTT weapons, armour, powers,


I've read *Cheree Alsop's Daybreak (Girl from the Stars, book 1)* a few days ago. It was okay, nothing too great. I liked the characters, but at the end of the book the heroes recover a weapon that "implodes galaxies." If that isn't OTT to the power of 10, I can't imagine what is. (Also it fits inside a small space ship!!!) I purchased the second *Daylight, *but at least for now (probably forever) it became a DNF it just went too far down the unbelievable hole for me.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 14, 2022)

Parson said:


> recover a weapon that "implodes galaxies." If that isn't OTT to the power of 10, I can't imagine what is.



*Implodes Galaxies!!!*

Aww man! I gotta have one of those. 

Who cares about jetpacks? 

Does it only implode the galaxy that you are in or can you aim it at other galaxies? Was there an instruction manual?


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 14, 2022)

Parson said:


> Cheree Alsop's Daybreak (Girl from the Stars, book 1)
> 
> I purchased the second *Daylight, *but at least for now (probably forever) it became a DNF it just went too far down the unbelievable hole for me.



OMG!

That book is on my phone. I quit halfway through where she was in some cavern helping to rescue people.  I think. Can't even remember what turned me off. Maybe I need to finish it.

Imploding galaxies sounds orgasmic!


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## Foxbat (Apr 14, 2022)

Why implode instead of explode? Wouldn’t imploding a galaxy cause a galaxy sized black hole?


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 14, 2022)

Foxbat said:


> Why implode instead of explode? Wouldn’t imploding a galaxy cause a galaxy sized black hole?


 All you have to do to explode a galaxy is turn off the gravity. Imploding a galaxy is a challenge.  Overcoming the angular momentum is a monster.


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## Parson (Apr 14, 2022)

Foxbat said:


> Why implode instead of explode? Wouldn’t imploding a galaxy cause a galaxy sized black hole?


One would think! But I know science wasn't the strong point of this book.


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## Swank (Apr 14, 2022)

Parson said:


> One would think! But I know science wasn't the strong point of this book.


Considering that galaxies have black hole cores, I don't see why either collapsing or expanding a galaxy would seem more likely than the other. In fact, they ought to take the exact same amount of energy, since it is really just a question of leaving orbit by going down or going up.



Parson said:


> but at the end of the book the heroes recover a weapon that "implodes galaxies." If that isn't OTT to the power of 10, I can't imagine what is.



What size device would have made you comfortable?


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## Parson (Apr 14, 2022)

Swank said:


> What size device would have made you comfortable?


Good question. I'm not sure any size would have been comfortable. I'd have thought at least the size of large star. Perhaps if they had talked about what the device had done? Perhaps if they had introduced it as a way to magnify the power of black holes? If one of those two I might not have had so much of a strong negative reaction.


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## Swank (Apr 14, 2022)

Parson said:


> Good question. I'm not sure any size would have been comfortable. I'd have thought at least the size of large star. Perhaps if they had talked about what the device had done? Perhaps if they had introduced it as a way to magnify the power of black holes? If one of those two I might not have had so much of a strong negative reaction.


Isn't it funny sometimes where we get our limits when it comes to our suspension of disbelief? In the '50s they managed to make a nuclear fission weapon the size of gym bag. The most powerful computers run on tiny chips. Micro doses of many drugs are lethal. But a fictional device doing a fictional thing with fictional physics is subject to our sense of proportionality and believability.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 14, 2022)

Parson said:


> One would think! But I know science wasn't the strong point of this book.



No excrement! 

I have been trying to recall any story that involved destroying a galaxy.  Nothing comes up.
The 3rd Bobiverse book destroys a star and explains how it is done. You just have to get a couple of planetoids to near light speed. Nothing really cosmically exceptional.  Ensign Flandry had something similar colliding with a star.


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## Pyan (Apr 14, 2022)

psikeyhackr said:


> I have been trying to recall any story that involved destroying a galaxy.  Nothing comes up.



The Arisians and the Lensmen combined to do it in either _Second_ _Stage_ _Lensmen_ or _Children_ _of_ _the_ _Lens_, by EE ‘Doc’ Smith.


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## Swank (Apr 14, 2022)

Pyan said:


> The Arisians and the Lensmen combined to do it in either _Second_ _Stage_ _Lensmen_ or _Children_ _of_ _the_ _Lens_, by EE ‘Doc’ Smith.


An SF story that actually destroys a galaxy is about as useful as a Western where all the horses are killed. That scale of event does not really work with the individual human scale of our storytelling.


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## Pyan (Apr 14, 2022)

Swank said:


> An SF story that actually destroys a galaxy is about as useful as a Western where all the horses are killed. That scale of event does not really work with the individual human scale of our storytelling.


Sorry? This is science fiction we're talking about. If the 'individual human scale of storytelling' can't cope with the destruction of a galaxy, perhaps the scale is too limited.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 14, 2022)

Pyan said:


> Sorry? This is science fiction we're talking about. If the 'individual human scale of storytelling' can't cope with the destruction of a galaxy, perhaps the scale is too limited.



This needs the last generation of Multivac.


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## Swank (Apr 14, 2022)

Pyan said:


> Sorry? This is science fiction we're talking about. If the 'individual human scale of storytelling' can't cope with the destruction of a galaxy, perhaps the scale is too limited.


I'm speaking from a practical view: SF books are largely about how individual people deal with large or small scale problems. Since galaxies are individually so vast as to contain seemingly every possible kind of alien environment, and are spaced so far apart, it would be hard to present a story where people are bothering to travel between them or can make a significant contribution to changing something about the outcome of such an event. An author posing a disaster on an enormous scale can be effective just staying within the bounds of a local star cluster.

SF occupies a middle ground between problems that are too large or too small to be bothered with, and this one strikes me as too large.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 14, 2022)

Military SF discussion can't be competently done for long without mentioning:

Hammer's Slammers by David Drake

That may have been the first of his books I read. I had not reached the decrepit age of 30 and that book kind of shocked me.









						Hammer's Slammers - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




I think this qualifies as Must Read MilSF!

I am pretty sure that the cover affected my purchase decision. The blurb didn't hurt.

In fact I think it is time for a reread. Now I have to get an electronic version.  
The only way to live the sci-fi life.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 14, 2022)

Pyan said:


> Sorry? This is science fiction we're talking about. If the 'individual human scale of storytelling' can't cope with the destruction of a galaxy, perhaps the scale is too limited.


Sorry, I have a plausibility limiter on my brain.
Probably a birth defect.


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## Pyan (Apr 14, 2022)

Swank said:
			
		

> Since galaxies are individually so vast as to contain seemingly every possible kind of alien environment, and are spaced so far apart, it would be hard to present a story where people are bothering to travel between them or can make a significant contribution to changing something about the outcome of such an event


Which argument practically wipes out the entire Culture series by Iain M Banks. Try them - you may be pleasantly surprised.
Culture series - Wikipedia



			
				psikeyhackr said:
			
		

> Sorry, I have a plausibility limiter on my brain.





			
				psikeyhackr said:
			
		

> Most of the books center on Avalon but the series has space pirates, renegade Empire officers revolting to start their own interstellar satrapies to attack Avalon, etc. Everything we need to know to prepare for the global collapse of civilization.
> I think *The Outcast* #5 is my favorite in the series so far. A girl escapes from an Islamic planet to eventually start a interstellar cartel. Lots of economics. (Post #14 in this thread)


Plausible? Really?


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## Swank (Apr 14, 2022)

Pyan said:


> Which argument practically wipes out the entire Culture series by Iain M Banks. Try them - you may be pleasantly surprised.
> Culture series - Wikipedia


Read every Culture book - they take place in this galaxy only, with the exception of one GSV mentioned that is slowly making its way to Andromeda.


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## Pyan (Apr 14, 2022)

True - I am in error there. But I still hold out for inter-galaxy action in the_ Lensman_ series.


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## Swank (Apr 15, 2022)

Pyan said:


> True - I am in error there. But I still hold out for inter-galaxy action in the_ Lensman_ series.


Do you think the author really had an idea about the size and location of galaxies? I never read any Smith, but a lot of pulp SF seems to play fast and loose with galaxies, universes, constellations, etc.


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## Pyan (Apr 15, 2022)

Yup - *Galaxy 666 - Pel Torro*


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 15, 2022)

Pyan said:


> Which argument practically wipes out the entire Culture series by Iain M Banks. Try them - you may be pleasantly surprised.
> Culture series - Wikipedia
> 
> Plausible? Really?



Does the culture series extend to other galaxies?
I tried 4 books, finished 2, and quit.

Once you tolerate the plausibility of FTL travel, then YES.  It used to take weeks to cross the Atlantic.  Now it takes 4 days to get to the Moon, it is just still too expensive.  

I soldered together my first computer in 1978. The smartphone that I am typing on right now is still somewhat implausible to me. LOL

If we had 100 times light speed technology then getting to the center of the galaxy would take 300 years. Getting to Andromeda, the closest galaxy, would take 25,000 years. But getting to Alpha Centauri, the closest star, would take 2 weeks. Like crossing oceans in sailing ships.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 15, 2022)

Pyan said:


> True - I am in error there. But I still hold out for inter-galaxy action in the_ Lensman_ series.


I know I read Triplanetary but I do not think I completed the Lensman Series.


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## Parson (Apr 15, 2022)

psikeyhackr said:


> (Hammer's Slammers) I think this qualifies as Must Read MilSF!


I would agree. Hammer's Slammers is a foundational series. But, I didn't find myself really loving them. It's too much space marines and too little space navy.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 15, 2022)

Parson said:


> I would agree. Hammer's Slammers is a foundational series. But, I didn't find myself really loving them. It's too much space marines and too little space navy.


Yeah, but it is significant more for the politics, attitude and psychology than the actual fighting. 
Drake was in the Blackhorse in Vietnam and had a completely negative attitude about the war. As one of the draft lottery losers this raises the issue of taking orders from a government of idiots.

I am not sure how much we can discuss it here since this site frowns on politics. Did you ever watch Robert McNamara's autobiographical documentary Fog of War?


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## Parson (Apr 16, 2022)

I would guess that we could discuss the Viet Nam war pretty much all we wanted. At this point it seems a lot more like history that politics. I did not watch "Fog of War." 

As I think about _Hammer's Slammers, _I would say that anti-government attitude was clearly seen in the books that I read. As I recall the mercs were almost always as worried about their employers than their "enemies."


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## Rodders (Apr 17, 2022)

Kind of linked, but not. I keep seeing the WH40k PC games in my Steam feed. Are they any good? They look like RTS Army Games


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## Foxbat (Apr 17, 2022)

Rodders said:


> Kind of linked, but not. I keep seeing the WH40k PC games in my Steam feed. Are they any good? They look like RTS Army Games


Slitherine do Warhammer games based on the Panzer Corps engine (a more modern version of Panzer General). If it’s those you’re seeing, I’m pretty sure they’re turn based rather than RTS. Plenty of DLC too.

They seem popular but not my cup of tea but here’s a link to the Matrix Games page (also available on Steam)





						Matrix Games
					






					www.matrixgames.com


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## Ursa major (Apr 18, 2022)

Swank said:


> they take place in this galaxy only


A pedant writes: _The Player of Games_ is partly set in the Small Magellanic Cloud.


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## BAYLOR (Apr 18, 2022)

*Bolo and Rogue Bolo* by Keith Laumer
*Bolos for the Honor * of the Regiment  created by Keith Laumer
*The Dragon Novel Sleeps*  by Glen cook
*Hammers Slammers *by David Drake 
*Dorsal*  by Gordon Dickson 
*The Forever War *by Joe Haldeman 
*Bill The Baltic Hero * by Harry Harrison 
*Armor *by Joh Steakley


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 18, 2022)

Dorsal?

Sounds fishy to me. Is Aquaman involved?


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 18, 2022)

Ursa major said:


> A pedant writes: _The Player of Games_ is partly set in the Small Magellanic Cloud.


Read the book. Didn't recall that.


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## Ursa major (Apr 18, 2022)

psikeyhackr said:


> Read the book. Didn't recall that.


IIRC, most of the book is set there.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 18, 2022)

> Bill The Baltic Hero by Harry Harrison



Baltic Hero? Didn't Poul Anderson write that?


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## BAYLOR (Apr 18, 2022)

psikeyhackr said:


> Baltic Hero? Didn't Poul Anderson write that?



Bill the Galactic Hero


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 18, 2022)

BAYLOR said:


> Bill the Galactic Hero


Is this your smartphone deciding what you are supposed to be writing? It happens to me too. 

AI stands for Almost Intelligent. 
Aggravating Intelligence?


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## W Collier (Apr 19, 2022)

When people say "military science fiction," do they always mean far-future space military?  Or do they ever mean, like, present day technothrillers with SF elements?


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## Swank (Apr 19, 2022)

W Collier said:


> When people say "military science fiction," do they always mean far-future space military?  Or do they ever mean, like, present day technothrillers with SF elements?


Most readers of both would not call Rainbow Six SF, no matter how many SF elements it has. For instance.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 19, 2022)

W Collier said:


> When people say "military science fiction," do they always mean far-future space military?  Or do they ever mean, like, present day technothrillers with SF elements?


No!

Weapons of Choice by John Birmingham 

Is time travel from an alternative 1920s where Hilary Clinton had been president to 1942 and the futuristic multinational navy fleet lands on top of the 1942 fleet headed for the battle of Midway.

Screws up history Big Time!

No space stuff whatsoever.  I think it is better than a lot of space stuff but I like a lot of social criticism type writing in stories.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 19, 2022)

BAYLOR said:


> *The Dragon Novel Sleeps*  by Glen cook


Are you suggesting bedtime reading for insomniacs? 

Does your phone hate you?









						The Dragon Never Sleeps
					

For four thousand years, the Guardships have ruled Canon Space - immortal ships with an immortal crew, dealing swiftly and harshly with a...



					www.goodreads.com


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## BAYLOR (Apr 19, 2022)

psikeyhackr said:


> Are you suggesting bedtime reading for insomniacs?
> 
> Does your phone hate you?
> 
> ...



Ive never had occasion to ask my phone anything.


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## W Collier (Apr 19, 2022)

Swank said:


> Most readers of both would not call Rainbow Six SF, no matter how many SF elements it has. For instance.


Oh, man, I remember Rainbow Six.  Not really his strongest work...

Weapons of Choice sounds ridonkulous.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 19, 2022)

W Collier said:


> Weapons of Choice sounds ridonkulous.



Yeah, an aircraft carrier named after Hilary Clinton is pretty ridiculous.  As bad as Ronald Reagan.  I was able to ignore that and soldier on. Otherwise I thought the story was pretty good. It is the start of a trilogy and I have read all three.


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## W Collier (Apr 19, 2022)

The question is, is it better than the military fantasy series "Forgotten Ruin"? in which Army Rangers slaughter orcs by the thousands with a-dubs?  That's my current guilty pleasure.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 19, 2022)

W Collier said:


> The question is, is it better than the military fantasy series "Forgotten Ruin"? in which Army Rangers slaughter orcs by the thousands with a-dubs?  That's my current guilty pleasure.



No opinion, never heard of it. 









						Forgotten Ruin (Forgotten Ruin #1)
					

Tolkien meets Shock and Awe   Orcs. Trolls. Wraith riders. Dark wizards. Together, they form an unstoppable force. Or so they thought.   ...



					www.goodreads.com
				




As you say, Mil Fantasy not Mil Sci-fi.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 19, 2022)

W Collier said:


> When people say "military science fiction," do they always mean far-future space military?  Or do they ever mean, like, present day technothrillers with SF elements?


Do you mean something like *The Hunt for Red October*?

I expect a Mil SF story to portray a significant amount of organized violence rather just involve military people and setting.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 19, 2022)

BAYLOR said:


> Ive never had occasion to ask my phone anything.


They lie shamelessly! Believe nothing.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 19, 2022)

BAYLOR said:


> *Bolo and Rogue Bolo* by Keith Laumer
> *Bolos * for the  *Honor of the Regiment  * created by Keith Laumer
> *Hammers Slammers *by David Drake
> *Dorsai*  by Gordon Dickson
> ...


Read all of the above, lots of different Bolo stories.
* Complete Bolo *

What is the story with the following: 


> *The Dragon Never Sleeps*  by Glen Cook
> *Armor *by Joh Steakley


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 19, 2022)

Ursa major said:


> IIRC, most of the book is set there.


Yep, but once you get down to an alien planet the stars are just randomly scattered around. I will have check how it affected travel time. I didn't remember anything about that.


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## BAYLOR (Apr 19, 2022)

psikeyhackr said:


> Read all of the above, lots of different Bolo stories.
> * Complete Bolo *
> 
> What is the story with the following:



*The Dragon Never Sleeps *by Glen  Cook is basically  The Black Company in Outer Space 

*Armor *by  John Steakley  its got two story lines  one dealing with Giant Insect like creature and vs human in armored battle suits and  thwith Pirates political intrigue


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## Ursa major (Apr 19, 2022)

psikeyhackr said:


> I will have check how it affected travel time. I didn't remember anything about that.


What has time travel got to do with what I've said (or the price of fish, for that matter)? It wasn't mentioned in the post (by Swank) to which I was responding.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 19, 2022)

Ursa major said:


> What has time travel got to do with what I've said (or the price of fish, for that matter)? It wasn't mentioned in the post (by Swank) to which I was responding.


Not time travel, travel time.

What is the flight time from New York to Chicago versus New York to San Francisco? The distance to the Magellanic Clouds is about twice the diameter of the Milky Way Galaxy.









						Magellanic Clouds - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




I don't remember how the FTL in the Culture books worked. Was it instantaneous or did "time" have to be spent in "hyperspace"?


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## Danny McG (Apr 19, 2022)

Ursa major said:


> or the price of fish, for that matter


Morrisons Cod Fillets are now selling at the ridiculous price of £17.39 per kilogram.....daylight robbery IMO


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 19, 2022)

psikeyhackr said:


> I don't remember how the FTL in the Culture books worked. Was it instantaneous or did "time" have to be spent in "hyperspace"?





> In _Excession_ one of the largest ships of the Culture redesigns itself to be mostly engine and reaches a speed of 233,000 times lightspeed. Within the range of the Culture's influence in the galaxy, most ships would still take years of travelling to reach the more remote spots.







__





						The Culture - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




At that speed it would still take 36 weeks to reach the nearer Magellanic Cloud. 45 weeks for the farther one. What was the average speed of a Culture ship?


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## Swank (Apr 19, 2022)

psikeyhackr said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter, as it is fiction. But anyone familiar with the book knows that it takes the better part of a year to get there, which the MC uses to learn the complex game.


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## Swank (Apr 19, 2022)

Ursa major said:


> A pedant writes: _The Player of Games_ is partly set in the Small Magellanic Cloud.


I suppose. I read a book a few years ago where they travel to the _planet_ Pluto. So I guess it depends on whether you view the Clouds as part of the Milky Way and that the nearest galaxy is Andromeda, or whether your nomenclature system demands that they are outside galaxy(ies?), and that the characters in that other book didn't travel to a planet at all.

I was just making the point that the action was "local", rather than involving distances of empty space that would take a large portion of a lifetime to cross.


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## Ursa major (Apr 19, 2022)

psikeyhackr said:


> Not time travel, travel time.
> 
> What is the flight time from New York to Chicago versus New York to San Francisco? The distance to the Magellanic Clouds is about twice the diameter of the Milky Way Galaxy.
> 
> ...


Oops!

The Culture uses hyperspace for what would seem (from the perspective of normal space) to be FTL. (The speed of light in hyperspace is much higher than our _c_.)

In _The Player of Games_, the journey to the dwarf galaxy takes a couple of years. According to Wikipedia, the fastest** ship was one in _Excession_, and it managed to travel at 233,000 times our _c_, so two years to get to the Small Magellanic Cloud (200,000 light-years away, plus the distance to be travelled _within_ the Milky Way) would not have been a problem.


** - The same article explains that the speed is dependent on the ratio between the engine mass and that of the ship, and that Culture ships can manipulate their own matter to change that ratio (so that most of the ship can be used for the engine) and then back again, depending on how fast they wish to go.


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## Ursa major (Apr 19, 2022)

Swank said:


> I suppose.c I read a book a few years ago where they travel to the _planet_ Pluto. So I guess it depends on whether you view the Clouds as part of the Milky Way and that the nearest galaxy is Andromeda, or whether your nomenclature system demands that they are outside galaxy(ies?), and that the characters in that other book didn't travel to a planet at all.
> 
> I was just making the point that the action was "local", rather than involving distances of empty space that would take a large portion of a lifetime to cross.


I'm not sure what Pluto has to do with it, but a dwarf galaxy is still a galaxy (the clue is in the name) and the Small Magellanic Cloud is 200,000 light-years from the Milky Way, so at least as far away as the diameter of our galaxy.

As for distances and time, we've seen in, for example, _Star Trek TNG_ (as with The Traveller) and _Stargate_ and _Stargate SG-1_ (and its spin-offs) very great distances -- including "merely" to other galaxies -- being travelled in next to no time, so this isn't really a restriction at all, but purely a choice the writer (of the book or screenplay) makes.

That's the beauty of fiction (particularly in SFF): the constraints that bind people and objects in their universes do not have to be the same as the ones that bind us.


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## Swank (Apr 19, 2022)

Ursa major said:


> I'm not sure what Pluto has to do with it, but a dwarf galaxy is still a galaxy (the clue is in the name) and the Small Magellanic Cloud is 200,000 light-years from the Milky Way, so at least as far away as the diameter of our galaxy.


The clue is in the name: The dwarf planet Pluto. Not a planet, but a dwarf planet. The Small Magellanic Cloud is either a dwarf galaxy, satellite galaxy or a full on proper galaxy. The modifier dwarf in both cases implies that the second word has a different meaning than that word on its own. Or maybe it doesn't?

I made the mistake of treating the Clouds as Banks (I thought) was treating threating them - as the totality of our galaxy rather than as a system of individual galaxies that happen to orbit around the same galactic core.

So I don't know if they travel outside our galaxy, because I don't know if a dwarf galaxy is a proper galaxy or if it is part of our galaxy, like the Oort Cloud is part of our solar system.

But you're a pedant, so you get it.


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## Ursa major (Apr 20, 2022)

A dwarf galaxy is simply a small galaxy, i.e. it's a "proper galaxy" that just happens to be small.

By contrast, the name "dwarf planet" was created out of the same bodge-based mess that led to the new definition** of what a "proper" planet should be. Indeed, other than having a mass sufficient to have a "nearly round" shape, size has no relevance as to whether a planet is a dwarf or not (to the extent that, at least in theory, a much, much larger*** planetary object that failed to "clear the neighbourhood" around its orbit would also be called a dwarf planet... unless the IAU decided to change its definition again).


** - The definition states that a "planet" is a celestial body inside the Solar System that (a) is in orbit around the Sun, (b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and (c) has cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit.

*** - Some people have argued that the eight planets that the new definition supposedly identifies as such don't fully meet this definition, so they should all really be called dwarf planets....


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## Swank (Apr 20, 2022)

Ursa major said:


> A dwarf galaxy is simply a small galaxy, i.e. it's a "proper galaxy" that just happens to be small.


You understand that astronomers actually debate the veracity of this statement, right?


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 20, 2022)

> “Here, then, is the operational plan. Twelve starships will leave Neptune orbit in three days. We will depart in line-astern formation and accelerate out to where we are clear of the planet’s gravity well. We will then jump to superlight and head directly toward the Crab Nebula. The distance is 7000 light-years, and we will be in transit for 380 days.


*Gibraltar Earth* by Michael McCollum 
7,000 * 365.24 / 380 = 6,728 times the speed of light
233,000 / 6,728 = 34.6

The FTL in Iain M. Banks' Culture Series has a maximum of almost 35 times that of McCollum's hyperspace system.  McCollum also has an instantaneous system but does not specify a maximum range for it.






						The Antares Series by Michael McCollum
					

Antares Dawn (Antares #1), Antares Passage (Antares #2), Antares Victory (Antares #3), and Der Antares Krieg



					www.goodreads.com
				









						Gibraltar Stars Series by Michael McCollum
					

Gibraltar Earth, Gibraltar Sun, and Gibraltar Stars



					www.goodreads.com


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## Pyan (Apr 20, 2022)

Swank said:


> You understand that astronomers actually debate the veracity of this statement, right?


Which ones? The European Space Agency seem to have no problem with them:
Dwarf Galaxy, 
and neither do NASA: 
NASA’s Webb to Unveil the Secrets of Nearby Dwarf Galaxies


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## Swank (Apr 20, 2022)

Pyan said:


> Which ones? The European Space Agency seem to have no problem with them:
> Dwarf Galaxy,
> and neither do NASA:
> NASA’s Webb to Unveil the Secrets of Nearby Dwarf Galaxies


I can't find the page I was reading earlier that stated this. I'll keep looking.


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## Ursa major (Apr 20, 2022)

Swank said:


> You understand that astronomers actually debate the veracity of this statement, right?


They seem to debate all sorts of things -- and can come up with dubious non-solutions (such as the shot-through-with-holes definition of a "proper" planet) -- but it seems that the Small Magellanic Cloud (SMG) was a small galaxy (possibly a barred spiral galaxy) that has subsequently** come into the vicinity*** of two others: the Milky Way galaxy and the Large Magellanic Cloud (dwarf) galaxy.

** - As a _satellite_ galaxy (i.e. one that is destined to descend towards the Milky Way), the SMG must have come into being farther away from us than it is now (by definition), so the arguments over its classification can't simply be about its being a satellite galaxy, but about what a galaxy (including the Milky Way) is.

*** - With talk of local groups****, galaxy clusters and the like, it isn't as if astronomers are unaware that even a non-dwarf galaxy, such as ours, can be influenced by the (_relatively_ close) presence of others.

**** - One of the members of our local group is the Phoenix dwarf galaxy, a dwarf galaxy that doesn't seem to be a satellite galaxy of a larger one... something that strongly suggests to me that at least some dwarf galaxies are real galaxies (even if some consider dwarf galaxies that are satellite galaxies _aren't_ real galaxies).


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## Danny McG (Apr 20, 2022)

Constantly disappointed that they keep finding new dwarf galaxies but they never name any of them Bashful, Sneezy, Doc etc


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## Rodders (Apr 20, 2022)

Boooo, Danny. 

Any film offerings for Military Science Fiction? I can only think of a few. Aliens is the obvious one, but Kurt Russell's underrated "Soldier" deserves a mention.


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## Wayne Mack (Apr 20, 2022)

Rodders said:


> Any film offerings for Military Science Fiction?


I'd include the "Starship Troopers" series and "Edge of Tomorrow." I don't know that I'd consider the "Aliens" series military fiction, though.


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## Rodders (Apr 20, 2022)

I only ask because I only really think about Military SF in book form and not really in movies, or games (both of which, I think are great science fiction genres).

I'd consider Aliens as Military Science Fiction, but not the Alien Franchise as a whole.


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## Danny McG (Apr 20, 2022)

Rodders said:


> Boooo, Danny.
> 
> Any film offerings for Military Science Fiction? I can only think of a few. Aliens is the obvious one, but Kurt Russell's underrated "Soldier" deserves a mention.


I can think of a few tv series,
Space: above and beyond was great (IMO)


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## Danny McG (Apr 20, 2022)

Dude here seems to have churned out a lot of books in a few years





__





						Michael Anderle
					

Author Michael Anderle's complete list of books and series in order, with the latest releases, covers, descriptions and availability.



					www.fantasticfiction.com


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 21, 2022)

Never heard of this:









						Rebel Tribe (Osprey Chronicles #1)
					

What do you do if you wake up hundreds of light-years from home in a strange ship and someone is trying to eat you?  Jaeger can’t remembe...



					www.goodreads.com
				




Maybe there are too many writers. Maybe we should organize a military strike against authors to reduce production.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 23, 2022)

Post alien attack series. Not very scientific. 





__





						AL:ICE Series by Charles W. Lamb
					

AL:ICE (AL:ICE, #1), AL:ICE-9 (AL:ICE, #2), AL:ICE Resurrection (AL:ICE, #3), AL:ICE Space War (AL:ICE, #4), AL:ICE Alliance (AL:ICE, #5), and AL:ICE Ex...



					www.goodreads.com
				




3.5 stars


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## magpie Asylum (Apr 25, 2022)

I hate to admit it but I'm not a fan of most military Sci Fi. I'm in the Army and so was my father, grandfather, great grandfather....Ok so there's a trend here. Most MilSF tends to gloss over huge parts of the actual business of war, and just kind of phone in the relationships that are formed in conflict. Dan Abnett's Gaunt's Ghost has gotten pretty close but I think that's only because of how dark the setting is. Most MilSF seem to act like the people in charge are either competent or have an agenda. The reality is most of the problems on the ground that grunts have to deal with come from someone having no clue what's going on. I know its not sexy to get into the nitty gritty of supples or morale, or the completely weird crap guys on the front line do to blow off steam but its what makes it feel real. Just my opinion and I will openly admit I'm way to close to this subject to be an objective critic.


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## Lostinspace (Apr 25, 2022)

I am currently on volume 8 of a series called "The Spiral Wars" by Joel Shepherd The Spiral Wars Series by Joel Shepherd. There are extreme views: most people have never heard of it. Some people produce Wikis about it The Spiral Wars Series, by Joel Shepherd Wiki. 

The stories are unusual as the author seems to try different things in each volume. For example, volume 7, Qalea Drop, has thirteen POV characters including two AIs and organics from three different species. However, all the stories follow the crew and associates of a single large warship UFS Phoenix as they wander the Galaxy seeking information and allies to counter an AI civilization that may well be aiming at the destruction of all organic intelligences.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 25, 2022)

magpie Asylum said:


> ....Ok so there's a trend here. Most MilSF tends to gloss over huge parts of the actual business of war, and just kind of phone in the relationships that are formed in conflict. Dan Abnett's Gaunt's Ghost has gotten pretty close but I think that's only because of how dark the setting is.


Any opinion about Hammer's Slammers by David Drake?


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## magpie Asylum (Apr 26, 2022)

Not yet but I'll read it.


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## Foxbat (Apr 27, 2022)

magpie Asylum said:


> . I know its not sexy to get into the nitty gritty of supples or morale, or the completely weird crap guys on the front line do to blow off steam but its what makes it feel real. Just my opinion and I will openly admit I'm way to close to this subject to be an objective critic.


I know it’s not military SF but I thought Dark Star did a good job of covering the blowing off steam aspect (eg. removing an airlock door and using it for target practice).


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## psikeyhackr (May 2, 2022)

Delphi Federation published in 2020 has Russians invading the Ukraine. 









						Delphi Federation (Delphi in Space #6)
					

Delphi Federation is book six in the Best-Selling SciFi adventure series Delphi in Space.. The series follows the McCormacks and their fr...



					www.goodreads.com


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## Brian G Turner (May 3, 2022)

psikeyhackr said:


> Delphi Federation published in 2020 has Russians invading the Ukraine.


You mean it was published 6 years after Russia invaded Ukraine?

Anyway, let's keep to military SF as this thread promised.


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## psikeyhackr (May 3, 2022)

Brian G Turner said:


> Anyway, let's keep to military SF as this thread promised.


You mean that isn't military?


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## Brian G Turner (May 3, 2022)

It is, but the book doesn't appear to be specifically about that current event.


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## psikeyhackr (May 3, 2022)

Brian G Turner said:


> It is, but the book doesn't appear to be specifically about that current event.


I was not trying to imply that it was. It is just one of the major incidents in the book. There is a significant amount of international conflict in the series involving China,  Russia and the United States.


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## psikeyhackr (May 7, 2022)

What do you think of the Libertarian and Capitalist propaganda in so much Mil SF? 

David Weber's Star Kingdom of Manticore is very capitalistic while Haven is an incompetent socialist state. John Ringo has his Ringo Jingoism  in Live Free or Die selling maple syrup to aliens. Similar stuff with Bob Blanton and Doug Hoffman.


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## Lostinspace (May 7, 2022)

One reason that authors write science fiction is that it gives them the chance to talk about political and religious issues without immediately losing half of their audience by contradicting the readers' opinions about our own real world issues. It is not obvious if a reader should wonder if Freehold's libertarianism would really work or whether they should just enjoy the story. An opposing view point is probably even more common Evil, Inc. - TV Tropes which mentions Manpower Incorporated from the same Mil SF sub-genre. Similarly Standard ARM from William Barton's When We Were Real.

If we want a more socialist view we could go to Fantasy where Graydon Saunders gets round the problem that it was difficult for Soviet planners to get true information by using magic that really would set your trousers on fire if you told lies (seems fair to mention as three of the five book series are set in a military fantasy organization). 

Leaving military SF behind, Greg Egan's Oceanic has a uniquely SF way of handling religion.


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## Toby Frost (May 9, 2022)

Lostinspace said:


> One reason that authors write science fiction is that it gives them the chance to talk about political and religious issues without immediately losing half of their audience by contradicting the readers' opinions about our own real world issues.



Personally, I feel that military SF has been too lenient with extremist and even fascist outlooks in the past (and I'm not talking about tough, violent action or "fascist" as a general slur on right-wingers, but actual political stances). If someone writes a book whitewashing the SS or ranting about communist conspiracies, I'm entitled to draw certain conclusions about the author. I'm well aware that the vast majority of military SF is not like this, but for me it's a case of a few bad apples putting me off the genre as a whole. 

Mods, please feel free to delete this post if it breaches the rules against discussing politics.


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## Parson (May 9, 2022)

I haven't found any overtly fascist overtones in any MSF that I've read. But I've often run across a anti-communist bias.* Socialism in the sense of the government taking care of everyone is often panned. There is often a feeling that governments are incompetent and that if more people were allowed to pursue their own welfare unrestrained, that it would be an ideal society. On the other hand, truly anti-social behavior (rape and murder chiefly) is seen as stomped out by governmental action. Many MSF stories are four square behind capital punishment. So, like every governmental system in real life, there is nothing that is purely capitalistic nor purely socialist.

*It's not insignificant that I'm a big fan of David Weber and have read a lot of Heinlein.


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## Lostinspace (May 9, 2022)

I am not sure if Military SF has a mechanism for opposing extremist and or fascist outlooks. In a world of self publishing, it is all up to the readers. There is also a problem that, whilst most people would prefer their spending on defence to be totally wasted like their spending on house insurance, a military SF story will tend to involved some use of the military's training and weapons. 

Having said that there are examples of military SF where the objective is to avoid Fascism taking over. The Vorkosigan Saga is partly inspired by Japanese history (according to Bujold in an interview http://www.holdfastmagazine.com/featured-author-issue-6/4589771561 
"I was also much inspired by Meiji Japan, another place where the future broke in from the outside and changed everything will or nil. The Vor have more roots in the samurai class than in European nobility.") As we all know, bad things happened in Japan from around 1930 and much of the early part of the Vorkosigan Saga is concerned with trying to prevent that happening on Barayar.

Moving from a Hugo Award winning series to something self published on Smashwords, "This Corner of the Universe" This Corner of the Universe, an Ebook by Britt Ringel starts a five book series which starts normally as a young officer shows that he is competent and brave but then diverges as he realises that he is fighting for the wrong side and tries to get himself and his crew out of the gears.


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## Parson (May 9, 2022)

Lostinspace said:


> it is all up to the readers


In some sense yes, but it's not as much up the readers as it used to be all up to the publishers before the explosion of self publishing. Now, you can write what you'd like, it might not sell, but you're still free to write it and publish it for any who might read it. 

Thanks of pointing out *This Corner of the Universe*. It sounds like something I would like have queued on my Kindle.


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## magpie Asylum (May 10, 2022)

Ok so weird flex but lets do this. 
You are tasked with writing a short story about a platoon of soldiers that are left behind after the Government they were fighting for collapses from internal conflict. They are on a hostile planet and have limited resources and complex political opinions about the war. 

How do you write this?


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## Brian G Turner (May 10, 2022)

magpie Asylum said:


> Ok so weird flex but lets do this.
> You are tasked with writing a short story about a platoon of soldiers that are left behind after the Government they were fighting for collapses from internal conflict. They are on a hostile planet and have limited resources and complex political opinions about the war.
> 
> How do you write this?


I'd ask in the Writing section - this is more a general discussion of Military SF.


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## Foxbat (May 21, 2022)

Haven’t read this yet but thought I’d mention the fact that I got David Drake’s Seas Of Venus for free on kindle. I’ve never read his stuff but, apparently, he wrote Hammer’s Slammers. Anybody interested should check out Amazon.


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## alexvss (May 21, 2022)

The newest volume of *Love, Death and Robots* had some neat military sci-fi. Two stories were from Cohesion Press' SNAFU anthologies, Survival of the Fittest and Unnatural Selection. I read the stories, and I found the source material to be better than the adaptations. They're both for free at Amazon.


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