# Cyanide



## RJM Corbet (Apr 5, 2012)

Would you choose to stir SODIUM FERRO CYANIDE into your food? 

Though 'not especially toxic' as the cyanides go, because the cyanide ion is bonded to the iron, it nevertheless releases H2CN (Hydrogen Cyanide gas) in combination with an acid, such as lemon juice or vinegar, or tomato juice. Or the acid in your digestive system?

Well you do, every day, because it's used as the anti caking agent in table salt.

Where are all the 'health and safety' nutters when you need them?


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## Ursa major (Apr 5, 2012)

Well, they have been telling us that salt isn't good for us for quite a while.

I suppose it all depends on the concentration, and thus the likely volumes of hydrogen cyanide released in one's stomach.


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 5, 2012)

Ursa major said:


> Well, they have been telling us that salt isn't good for us for quite a while.
> 
> I suppose it all depends on the concentration, and thus the likely volumes of hydrogen cyanide released in one's stomach.


 
Never mind, the Co-op have a nice little funeral business going on the side ...

Seriously, the concentration is obviously pretty low, to pass food regulations, etc. But still ... _cyanide? _


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## Ursa major (Apr 5, 2012)

Presumably the choice is based on cost, ease of production, compliance to regulations, safety and suitability for the purpose.

As long as it's safe in the amounts that someone could possibly take in (which is probably limited by the adverse effects of ingesting too much salt), there shouldn't be a problem.


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## Abernovo (Apr 5, 2012)

That said, cyanide's also used in the refining of sugar, or at least it used to be and I doubt things have changed that much. Cyanide is also present in apple seeds.

I'm not that worried. We're exposed to poisons every day. It's the concentrations that matter, as Ursa said. And, there's plenty of substances we need to survive that are poisonous in larger doses.


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## Foxbat (Apr 5, 2012)

RJM Corbet said:


> Would you choose to stir SODIUM FERRO CYANIDE into your food?
> 
> Though 'not especially toxic' as the cyanides go, because the cyanide ion is bonded to the iron, it nevertheless releases H2CN (Hydrogen Cyanide gas) in combination with an acid, such as lemon juice or vinegar, or tomato juice. Or the acid in your digestive system?
> 
> ...


 
That's why I use rock or sea salt. Clogs up like billy-oh though


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## Vertigo (Apr 5, 2012)

There are several different ferrocyanides used in food. They're really not particularly dangerous. There are plenty of other similar examples. For example Hydrogen Sulphide is a very poisonous gas (classic rotten egg smell) and we produce it in our bodies as a signaling molecule. 

There are plenty of similar examples of poison in or closely associated with our food here's a handful (but there are many others):

Castor oil is made from the caster seed - around 4 - 8 seeds would be deadly to an adult.

Some types of almond (bitter almond) contain cyanide and must be cooked before being safe.

Many pulses (dried beans) contain toxic sugars requiring proper cooking before they are safe. The classic and most toxic example is the Red Kidney Bean (as in chilli con carne); around 3-5 uncooked beans can cause symptons.

The oxalic acid in rhubarb is poisonous. I once read somewhere that you shouldn't eat rhubarb more than once in a week.

Bite on a cherry bit (or plum, peach, apricot) and it produces Hydrogen Cyanide.

Live life on the edge I say!


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## Pyan (Apr 5, 2012)

The one you really need to watch out for is dihydrogen monoxide...


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## The Judge (Apr 5, 2012)

I recall they caught some rent-a-mouth politicians out with that one -- they immediately called for a ban!

Interestingly enough, that *ahem* report refers to "excessive ingestion" leading only to unpleasant side-effects -- in fact exercise-associated hyponatraemia can be deadly, and typically involves brain-swelling, confusion and seizures through low blood-sodium concentrations.  Take more salt is the answer...


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 5, 2012)

Well, I just don't like putting cyanide in my soup. Prefer rock salt from now on _Abernovo,_ thanks. 

But in small doses, some poisons can be beneficial. Caffiene is a deadly poison, in pure form, transparent crystals, at least as toxic as potassium cyanide. Nicotine too, of course. In Victorian times when opium and cocaine were available over the counter, arsenic was used as a stimulant, amphetamine type drug, _cut_ with talcum powder or something like that, and sniffed in the same way that cocaine is nowadays. 

It was an addictive drug and, because it's accumulative, eventually deadly to the addict.

The CN (cyanide) molecule is a natural substance (Carbon/Nitrogen). But the animal body isn't fond of nitrogen compounds.

I just don't like these guys putting sodium fluoride (deadly) in my water, cyanide in my salt, etc. But you probably need a couple of good lungfuls of hydrogen cyanide to turn blue and die in agony. Its easily made by dropping any cyanide compound into any acid. They used to advise gas chamber unfortunates to breathe deep and get it over with. A relatively quick but very painful death. And I don't think it's accumulative, like DDT, for instance?

Hydrogen Sulphide (rotten egg gas) is four times more poisonous than hydrogen cyanide gas. As kids we used to make stink bombs, a bit of iron pyrites (iron sulphide) with hydrochric acid. Even a tiny bit, diffused in air, is highly odorous. Hydrogen telluride or selenide are even worse, I believe.

On the oil rigs when they hit a pocket of Hydrogen Sulphide they dive for gas masks. One lungful will kill you. But its a question of concentration. 

All the same ...

_Edit: Thanks Pyan (there goes my beer )_


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## Metryq (Apr 5, 2012)

"I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder."
—The Dread Pirate Westley


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## Ursa major (Apr 5, 2012)

*Cyanide* n. an event in the past whereby one's monarch entered one's vicinity (Hum.**).









_** - Yes, the pun stnks, doesn't it?..._


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## RJM Corbet (Apr 5, 2012)

Ursa major said:


> _** - Yes, the pun stnks, doesn't it?..._


 
He nose ...


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## Brian G Turner (Mar 7, 2015)

RJM Corbet said:


> Well, I just don't like putting cyanide in my soup. Prefer rock salt from now on _Abernovo,_ thanks.



You could always try pepper?


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## Mirannan (Mar 7, 2015)

Ferrocyanide isn't a problem because the cyanide ion binds very strongly indeed to iron, and thus is highly unlikely to be displaced by any biological molecule - which needs to happen before the cyanide can do any damage. The bond is almost as strong as a normal chemical bond. Another example is this one: Sulphur is fairly innocuous to humans as is, but fluorine is a really vicious poison; in high enough concentration, human tissue burns spontaneously in it.

However, the compound of the two (sulfur hexafluoride, SF6) is completely harmless unless one breathes enough of it to suffocate.


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## Ray McCarthy (Mar 7, 2015)

Sodium and Chlorine separately are very nasty.


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## Mirannan (Mar 7, 2015)

Ray McCarthy said:


> Sodium and Chlorine separately are very nasty.



Yep. And a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen is violently explosive. The real point is that molecular groups of any sort have an effect dependent on what else, if anything, they are attached to.

Another example of this sort of thing is that the cyanide group -CN is found in such innocuous stuff as ABS plastic, used in all manner of domestic products.


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