# hypnosis - reality or sci-fi?



## TL Rese (Nov 15, 2011)

i recently watched derren brown's latest illusion series, in which he proved that he could hypnotize a guy into becoming an assassin.  i want to be open-minded, but i just have my doubts that maybe the series was staged.  after all, wouldn't it have made poor television if it turned out that, "oh wait.  we can't hypnotize someone into being the perfect assassin after all.  sorry, ladies and gentlemen, but thanks for watching."

what do you think?  is hypnosis real or science fiction?


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## Parson (Nov 15, 2011)

That depends on what you mean by "real." I've been hypnotized many times and for me at least it's rather like a gentle reminder of something. I could certainly choose to do the opposite of the suggestion and often did, but I could also choose to do what the suggestion pointed me toward. I was always aware I was choosing and what was the desired response, but I believe it made choosing the desired response a bit easier. 

Most agree that you could never hypnotize anyone to do something that they were strongly opposed to. In talking with hypnotists when the do "shows" (and by the way this kind of hypnotism is most rare) they pick their subjects quite carefully out of the volunteers, not for lack of intelligence or a strong will, but generally look for someone who is strongly self defined and might like to be the center of attention for once in their life.


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## Quokka (Nov 15, 2011)

Which pretty much fits with Darren Brown, I haven't seen that episode but he's pretty open about using magician/mentalist tricks and diversions in his acts but as far as I know he's always denied using 'plants' or outright faking the actions/reactions of the audience or participants.

OT he mentioned in one of his shows that most people answer Carrot if asked to name a vegetable, I tried it and got something like 6 out of 8 with one friend saying Carrot was his first choice but he changed it .


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## Teresa Edgerton (Nov 15, 2011)

My mother one gave me a self-hypnosis tape, for controlling your weight through diet.  It made certain statements in a gentle, soothing voice, over and over, statements that I used to remind myself when my resolve faltered.  And it worked very well.  I don't remember how much weight I lost, because it was many, many years ago, but I am guessing something along the lines of thirty or forty pounds.  Whatever it was, I reached my target weight in a few months.  

So, yes, I believe in hypnosis, although what it can and can't do might be a bit hyped.


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## Karn Maeshalanadae (Nov 15, 2011)

Hypnosis is real and used in psychological treatment.


I think it relies heavily on the receiver's susceptibility to the power of suggestion and their mental strength. It can be used to call out repressed memories (the most common use for it, I think), its powers of suggestion can be used to help overcome certain addictions, and in cases of DID it can be used to communicate with other personalities that might otherwise be dormant at the time.


But I believe its power of total control over the receiver has been debunked. As I said, it can suggest, but not command.


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## Quokka (Nov 15, 2011)

Karn Maeshalanadae said:


> It can be used to call out repressed memories (the most common use for it, I think)



That's a very small and still very controvertial aspect of hypnosis, the most common use afaik would be simple relaxation or therapeutic uses like what TE mentioned... well those and watching semi intoxicated friends dance around on stage .


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## Dozmonic (Nov 15, 2011)

Derren actually goes to some lengths in one of his books to explain that he doesn't believe hypnosis is actually real, but he feels it's more a level of social and interpersonal expectation that creates the results, especially for stage performances. At some levels it's an act of confusion or relaxation, followed by simple instructions that people often follow but he doesn't believe anybody actually sees pink elephants if they're hypnotised to see them.


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## HareBrain (Nov 15, 2011)

Dozmonic said:


> but he doesn't believe anybody actually sees pink elephants if they're hypnotised to see them.


 
There was one episode a few years back where he sat behind a table, manipulating a doll, in full view of a student seated on the other side. The student saw the moving doll, but did not see Brown, an experience that cleary freaked the student out. The only explanation Derren Brown offered was that he had chosen a film studies student because they were more suggestible, but surely this must be a kind of hypnosis with hallucinatory effects?


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## Dozmonic (Nov 15, 2011)

It has been some years since I read the book now (tricks of the mind), but he has a whole section on hypnosis and suggestibility and the main thing I recall bringing out of it is that while he uses hypnosis techniques, he believes it's more a form of suggestibility, heightened by people being in situations that put them on edge and thus easier to move out of their comfort zone. If you ever watch someone like Richard Bandler doing silent hypnosis where they do nothing but stare someone into a hypnotic trance, it is like a childhood staring competition that he only wins because he's told them it'll work and they'll be put into a trance. It can take minutes to achieve this without anchoring states and speaking, but with a crowd of people watching a "master" at work, the expectation is that it'll work and that pressure makes the person conform, or at least pretend to.


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## Interference (Nov 15, 2011)

Hypnotism, as even Derren Brown manages to explain a little about in one of his books, is a combination of effects.  Actually, I just glanced as Dozmonic's opening, so I think this has already been said.

Now I've glanced at a bit more.

All I can add is "N.L.P.", which also has a large part to play in the process.


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## clovis-man (Nov 15, 2011)

Parson said:


> Most agree that you could never hypnotize anyone to do something that they were strongly opposed to. In talking with hypnotists when the do "shows" (and by the way this kind of hypnotism is most rare) they pick their subjects quite carefully out of the volunteers, not for lack of intelligence or a strong will, but generally look for someone who is strongly self defined and might like to be the center of attention for once in their life.


 
From discussions with people who have been hypnotized and with those who do the hypnotizing, it seems clear that any sort of post-hypnotic suggestion that goes against the subject's wishes just won't work. Everything from trying to get a public display of affection by a shy person to a concern by the subject for his or her safety in a contrived situation will scotch the process.

But I've seen hypnosis demonstrated and it certainly seemed genuine. Just not at a Svengali level.

And the person doing the demonstration (a psychologist) said that he picked subjects via a show of hands from the observers. Anyone who seemed very eager was not chosen. Those who seemed the most tentative were usually the best subjects.


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## Mouse (Nov 15, 2011)

I've been to see Derren Brown live. He does a lot using suggestion and distraction. One part of the show he played a game of ping pong (or something like that) on a large screen on stage and told us it was very important that we all counted how many times the ball passed over the net. So everybody's doing that... Except I have a tiny attention span. So my mind wanders, I lose count. I start looking around and there by the side of the stage is a bloke in a gorilla outfit taking away something that was sitting on this stand thing.

At the end of the ball counting thing, Derren asks how many people noticed the (whatever it was) had gone missing from the stand. About five of us put up our hands. Nobody else had seen it.

He also did something else (it was a while ago and I have an awful memory!) where we had to pick out a picture from the screen on the stage out of a load of different pictures. Again, I didn't pick the one which most people apparently do. Which, according to Derren, puts me in with only 2% of the population.

So I think hypnosis/suggestion/whatever only works if you're the right sort of person for it to work on. 

(Incidentally, when Derren chose people from the audience to come up on stage, he did so by throwing a frisbee into the crowd and seeing who caught it. Completely random.)


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## Interference (Nov 15, 2011)

I suspect Mr Brown is a master-practitioner of the technique and would, quite possibly, find a way of misdirecting practically anyone.  I'd have to check into this, but perhaps his truly random selections are reserved for those demonstrations which would work on absolutely anyone he chose.


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## Mouse (Nov 15, 2011)

Inter, I wish I could tell you what demonstrations he did with the frisbee-catching audience member, but I can't remember.

Maybe that's why these things don't work on me. I can't remember what's going on! Also, I noticed that Derren has a tick - which you don't really see in the TV show and I spent most of the time pondering why that was, and not concentrating on what he was doing.


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## Interference (Nov 15, 2011)

His "nod"-tick is something he developed as an affirming thing.  It seems entirely unconscious but accompanies his "suggestion" words.  This and his apparent humility and shyness lure his victims into his web


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## Mouse (Nov 15, 2011)

Genius.


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## Interference (Nov 15, 2011)

Thank you.


Ohhhh .... you mean him....


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## Quokka (Nov 16, 2011)

Mouse said:


> I've been to see Derren Brown live. He does a lot using suggestion and distraction. One part of the show he played a game of ping pong (or something like that) on a large screen on stage and told us it was very important that we all counted how many times the ball passed over the net. So everybody's doing that... Except I have a tiny attention span. So my mind wanders, I lose count. I start looking around and there by the side of the stage is a bloke in a gorilla outfit taking away something that was sitting on this stand thing.
> 
> At the end of the ball counting thing, Derren asks how many people noticed the (whatever it was) had gone missing from the stand. About five of us put up our hands. Nobody else had seen it.



I remember seeing the same thing as a site saftey video, 4 people in white and 4 in black pass a basketball between them and we were asked to just count how often the ball went from black to black. Mid way through the clip a guy in a black monkey suit walks right between everyone, turns and waves at the screen before walking off. Again most didnt see it. I suppose some of that's just focus on another area but I'm always interested by just how much our brains fill in the gaps everyday compared to what is actually seen. Lots of great demonstrations of it and it's something magicians/mentalists have been exploiting for centuries .


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## Moonbat (Nov 16, 2011)

I think, possibly I have been hypnotised with the sugegstion, that I read once that Hynosis is not, as has been said, some great trance like state where the hypnotist acxtually has control of the other's will, but it merely a a form of mutual agreement between the two parties. From what I remember about the article t said tha Science didn't really understand hypnotism, becuase they were unable to really prove what kind of mental sate the people were in. Sorry, very vague. I have been to a cople of shows with hypnotists but I have never managed to get hypnotised. 
We had at my uni whilst I was there, and the guy kept us waiting for almost an hour, then i was on my way to the loo and I bumped into him and told him off for keeping us waiting. He winked at me as we met and it made me more confident to open up to him, I remember me saying that 'they' were all waiting, talking about my friends and the crowd, he then said that 'they're all B*stards" and I smiled and said that we were all b*stards really. During the start of the show when he tries to hypnotise people I felt he kept looking at me, but I might have been mistaken.
Anyway, it was very a funny and rude show, but I was a little disapointed/relieved not to have been hypnotised.


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## TL Rese (Nov 16, 2011)

in the show, derren brown picked a guy that he thought was very suggestible and an all-round nice guy who "wouldn't hurt a fly".  then, derren hypnotized his "victim" =P who was unaware that he was being hypnotized the whole time.  under hypnosis, the victim then carried out what he thought was a real assassination of stephen fry, and then immediately forgot the whole thing.  it was then suggested that maybe this was what happened to sirhan sirhan, the guy who was convicted of killing robert kennedy.

somehow, i feel a bit skeptical about this show.  doesn't this go against the theory that you can't hypnotize someone into doing something unwillingly?  so then how can you hypnotize a nice, decent person into becoming a murderer?

(btw, 'zoolander' is a spoof of this hypnosis technique =P)


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## Dozmonic (Nov 16, 2011)

People can become desensitised to their acts in stages. That's how the army make killers out of ordinary citizens.


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## HareBrain (Nov 16, 2011)

Does that mean the subject has now become desensitised to murder? Isn't that a bit, er, unethical?


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## Dozmonic (Nov 16, 2011)

People are capable of great change. If you can take someone to a level where they feel it's fine to do that, you can take them back to the levels where they felt it was wrong. Derren often emphasises that they work with the people afterwards to make sure they recover and are psychologically fine.


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## Interference (Nov 16, 2011)

... and just sometimes, they're stooges.


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## Dave (Nov 16, 2011)

Those stories which would crop up once a Season on shows like _The Avengers_ where people are brainwashed into killing machines or to replace other people, usually with the use of psychedelic music and lights, I think had a permanent effect on me, and I have always felt uneasy about Hypnosis. Those stories were pure bunkum, even though good fun.

Derren Brown is an illusionist by profession - obviously you cannot believe everything you see him do. That stands to reason. However, as already pointed out, hypnosis does work because it is used medically.

I think there is a huge difference though, between kicking habits like smoking, nail biting and overeating, in which the urges are largely subconscious, to instructing someone to commit serious crime or even Murder, presumably against all their personal moral codes and it must demand a concious decision. I could be wrong, I don't claim to be a doctor or psychologist.


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## Dozmonic (Nov 16, 2011)

It could be stooges, but he's done enough stunts to have whistleblowers by now. He's also pretty happy to show his failures in smaller stunts. The sure-fire betting scam was one such example. That we see this one result that has worked, doesn't mean there hasn't been a hundred that failed.


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