# Film violence



## Brian G Turner (Oct 10, 2004)

After discussing the Star Wars Episode II violence with WhiteStar, I figured it was time to really address questions of film violence.

 When I was younger, accusations that film violence was affecting our generation seemed groundless, and like all good liberals we argued that film violence was merely an imitation of the growing violence on our streets.

 But look and compare how much more violent films have become over the past 10-20 years and its pretty astonishing. 

 For example, the film "Warriors" - about clashing street gangs - was considered so violent it had to be an 18. Nowadays it would be lucky to get as high as a PG. 

 And in Star Wars, attack of the clones, a focussed beheading is apparently just a PG experience.

 How bad has film violence become - and how bad is it going to get? Or is it merely changes in sensibilities that have changed? If so, for the worse or the better?

 And - ultimately - to what degree does film violence actually reflect life's violence, and to what degree does it fuel it.


 A discussion starter.


----------



## Foxbat (Oct 10, 2004)

My opinion is that the violence rises as we become more accepting of it. Violence has always been there but it evolves with us - and for us as we accept more of it in film  and use more technology for its reproduction. 

I don't think film violence is a specific cause of anything sinister but more a reflection of our (society's) changing standards and therefore a symptom rather than cause. 

In many ways, I don't think it has become as bad as many would have us believe. In the 80s there was always the talk of 'snuff' movies and in the 70s there were a few Italian Cannibal films doing the rounds. Most of the time it has been underground (like many things that start in this way) and is finally making it into the mainstream. 

I'm going to stop now because I'm starting to lose myself


----------



## Maryjane (Oct 10, 2004)

_I think as the population grows violence grows proportionally to the increase of population. As for more violence in the media and movies, ya it apears to be much more prominent then it use to. Like lets say when we got our first black and white TV in the home. I remember the word damn used for the first time would make some puritans and religious people's hair wilt with the shock of hearing such blasphomy on national Tv back then. They reminded me of old crows wearing clothes and some, "oh that's just so peachy" pecky old hens thrown in. Please do drop in again, there will be more then tea in the tea pot next time. So maw would have said _


----------



## dwndrgn (Oct 10, 2004)

It is also a matter of exposure.  We now have 'windows' to the world through world-wide media coverage and un-censored internet content.  Just as with certain sensations or tastes, your body becomes used to them - think of the fry cook who can pick up a pan straight from the oven because his body has become used to and adapted to the sensation.

With so much visual exposure, it isn't any wonder to me that films have to keep trying to go above and beyond because we've become a bit desensitized and dissassociated from the stuff we see everyday.

On the other hand, some films and books go the opposite direction and never actually show the violence or sex but allude to it so well that you understand without having to have it visualized for you.  I prefer those, but unfortunately those are few and far between.


----------



## Maryjane (Oct 11, 2004)

_Desentisised. I do't think I could. Seen enough evil in real life. There are different levels of intesity of violence to me it depends where my own pain threshold limit is at in those levels. Do you have a tolerance limit? _

_And thanks Brian for the help on the web site, apretiated._


----------



## Princess Ivy (Oct 11, 2004)

Ah, one of my pet topics. good. I must agree, I've noticed a huge rise in film violence over the years. I remember when Robocop came out in SA, rated 21 and censored to hell. forward to Kill Bill, where we are laughing at the parodied violence of the crazy 88 fight scene. Not only is the violence becoming more pronounced and agressive, its more realistic. I think it is this realism that makes it so 'acceptable' in our society where 'reality' is so important. 

Even the news media is showing violence, note the bombings in iraq and attacks in israel.

And yes we are less sensitive to it. how could we not be? In its day deathwish, with its graphic rape sequences was horrendus, now, i know kids who have watched it (fifteen year olds) and not been distressed.

I don't however believe that it is affecting the world, except in a few extreme cases where pycotics have twisted it to their own ends, but rather think of it as a reflection on the world of today. Not that we are more violent today, but rather that that violence is more visible today than it was in past times with less accessible media coverage.


----------



## Maryjane (Oct 11, 2004)

I agree with you Princess Ivy in my case if I don't like it, I shut it out. I watch some movies that has some violence but where the meat of the movie is not centered wholy on violence. Maybe it affects people that are sensitive to this subject and others are moderatly bothered and then there are those that enjoy it as a form of entertainment. Like watching a family show or cartoons on Saturday morning or an adventure action movie. Everyone enjoyes the flow of adrenaline now and again and if it just remains an adventure into fantasy that's fine. Now as to affecting people to the point of enacting the violence I think that this would depend greatly what your normal nature, morals and ethics are to begin with.


----------



## Maryjane (Oct 11, 2004)

_There are still some good people left in the world and I think there is hope for the world. This is my optomistic statment of the day _


----------



## Lucifer (Nov 7, 2004)

When it comes to violence in society, I think that it's a joke to blame television programming, gangs, glamourization of gun culture, movies, video games, music, etc, for the violence inherant in American society.  There's no disguising the fact that America has a problem, but it's a problem with the way people raise their children, not with what the media presents to them.  It's not the media's job to raise children, but with no parents around it's hardly a surprise that America is scapegoating like crazy.

Example: Trying to pin Columbine on Marilyn Manson, or other school shootings on video games.  "They're just children; they can't differentiate between reality and fantasy."  All the cognitive tests prove that children are fully capable of logic and reason by the time they're seven years old.  

Another example I love is Japanese society: anime is just about as gore-filled, violent, and misogynistic as anything you're likely to find, but the murder, crime, and rape rate per capita is astoundingly low.  From my perspective, a great deal of Japanese society seems very structured and very organized, with the concept of "honor" taught to the children by both their parents and the school system.  They are taught to compete and to work hard.  Our schools cater to the average student.  Our books are out of date and we constantly vilify "nerds" and "geeks" in our society.  Basically, if you have an imagination and you refuse to break it to conform, the playground will do the breaking for you.

(Lucifer realizes that she is ranting.  Sorry.)

Violence sells.  Shock sells.  In a consumer-based market, he with the best goods sells the most toys.  Violence is a fact of media. but as far as it's ability to warp the mind - well, the jury is still out.  

Speaking from childhood experience, I grew up watching extremely violent films.  However, my father discussed them with me, and my mother checked in to see how I felt about the themes and ideas expressed in these movies.  I also had an active life - my world consisted of far more than a telelvision screen and a pile of video games.  I have never mutilated an animal or destroyed another human being with more than words.  It was the way my parents raised me that made me who I am, along with the coping techniques and the idea of responsibility that accompanied those lessons.

I am very much a libertarian at heart.  I believe in legalizing it all and letting us govern ourselves.  If it offends you, don't watch it, don't listen to it, don't let it keep you up at night.  I'll respect your decision and won't attempt to make you "open your eyes" and see "how it really is."  On the other hand, I expect the same level of respect if I want to saturate myself in film violence, listen to music chock-full of dirty words, and keep guns and sharpened swords in my closet.  Peple really need to get out of one another's business - reality television is the sickest example of this.  We, as a country, are so absorbed in other people's lives that we forget to live our own.  We are so caught up in the drama of Survivor, the Real World, Road Rules, Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire, that we forget to talk to our children.  Hell, we may even forget that we _have_ children.  Childhood is a terrifying time full of changes and pressures that we swiftly forget as adults.  Is it any wonder that these ignored and sidelined children act out?  Is it any wonder that they grow up to be unfulfilled adults who feel like they don't exist?

Violence in society is a product of that society.  Violence in media is entertainment.  Even when it comes to terrorism, we just can't wait to see what those evil folks overseas will do next.  Yet we ignore the fact that they see us as the enemy, that they see the atrocities that will never reach the evening news.  Ultimately, media only shows us what we want to see, and our desires are measured by the almighty dollar.  So, in conclusion, the violence we have must be the violence we want.

Ask and ye shall receive . . .

Lucifer.


----------



## littlemissattitude (Nov 8, 2004)

Lucifer said:
			
		

> Example: Trying to pin Columbine on Marilyn Manson, or other school shootings on video games. "They're just children; they can't differentiate between reality and fantasy." All the cognitive tests prove that children are fully capable of logic and reason by the time they're seven years old.


Actually, it's been my observation that children are much better at telling the difference between reality from fantasy than many adults are.

A couple of things:

First of all, I don't actually think that society is any more violent now than it ever was, and is in fact less violent in many ways than it has been at earlier points in history.  It's just that with our new technologies that make instantaneous media possible, we hear about it more, and have more opportunities to see violence as it happens.  Also, the media sensationalizes violence now in a way that it didn't before.  I'm old enough to remember when news stories about violent crime were reported without all the emotionally-charged vocabulary used today.  Television news, especially, has people convinced that it is dangerous to step outside one's front door simply because they report what crime there is in such vivid and bloody detail.

This is not to say that I don't think that violence goes on.  Of course it does.  I just don't think that violence in films has that much influence in causing that violence.  Sure, you have instances where someone commits a crime and then says that a TV show or a movie or a song made them do it.  Even when they say that, I don't necessarily believe them.  It makes a good excuse, a good defense.  "Oh, poor me.  I watched a movie and it made me kill" (or rape, or rob, or whatever their crime was).  It's like when Ted Bundy made such a fuss, just before he was executed a few years ago, over how pornography made him murder all those women.  He was trying to put off his execution by making it sound like if psychologists studied him, they could figure out a way to fix the problem.  But you don't fix sociopaths.  And how practical is it to try to make a world in which sociopaths would never be set off?  Not very, I suspect.

I don't know...for all I know, movies do influence those few sick individuals who are already predisposed to violence, making them more likely to act out.  However, I think it is just as likely that something else would trigger them.  I don't have an answer.  But I suspect that only allowing people to make movies and write books and do television shows about Sunday School picnics is _not_ the answer to ending violence.


----------



## polymorphikos (Nov 8, 2004)

A film reviewer made the good point that violence is fine in films, provided that the impact is there to make you realise what the violence means. But really, it is all cartoons, less violence than a dance, and fantasy. Realising that it is unhealthy to go on katana-weilding death-storms through the heart of a major city, people simply project this into fantasy. Many have pointed-out the latent sexuality and rape-fantasy inherent in your average vampire or novel, but i would hardly argue that films/books such as the original Dracula need censoring, even though it is quite clear what they are on about.

People are mostly nasty and violent, even if only a latent aspect. Jekyll and Hyde. The id is present in all of us. Therefore, a videogame where you can act-out your psychopathic fantasies in technicolour 3D is the perfect outlet, as opposed to following Jekyll by putting your fantasies into practice, and slowly being consumed by them. And excellent films such as the Lone Wolf series, Seven Samurai, Princess Blade, Kill Bill and the like are at the same time explicitly-gorey, and displaying an anti-violence message. In Kill Bill 1/2 and Princess Blade especially this latter aspect is heightened, proving not only that it is all fun and games and doesn't really mean anything, but that the entire violence aspect is not something to be lauded, and should be kept where it belongs on the silver screen. 

I think if anything should be targeted it is reality violence, on TV in "World's Worst" programmes and on the news. Such programmes blur the line between fantasy and reality, and cheapen the entire meaning of the situation. As long as real and fantasy violence is kept very-clearly seperate, however, that's not too much of a problem.

On the ratings front, I'm not too certain. If your child is young enough to be affected by ratings, then they're probably also young enough for you to stop them from going to see "inadequately" rated films. But fairy tales are gruesome, and the general attitudes of people are shifting, and so long as nothing worse than Jurassic Park and Star Wars is gettng on PG ratings, it can't be too worrisome an issue.


----------



## polymorphikos (Nov 8, 2004)

Blast, she said most of my points before I could post.


----------



## Brian G Turner (Nov 8, 2004)

There's a general glamourisation of violence across all media, whether it's TV, film, music, or computer games. The big problem, though, is that all this is not simply much more accessible to children, but sometimes even specifically marketed at them. 

There's an argument that film violence reflects violence in real life - but, really, when was the last time Hollywood released a film that took violence seriously, rather than a pop-corn laden bloodfest for fun and entertainment?

True, the newspapers and local media are quite wrong to blame isolated individual elements - but I see an argument running much deeper than that - the elements as symptoms of a larger whole.

Interesting comment about Japan - my understanding is that Japanese society is still largely community-based - ie, the family matters. In the West the extended family and community systems have been effectively destroyed since the industrial revolution. It would be interesting to compare the specifics of that comparison more deeply.


----------



## Lacedaemonian (Nov 8, 2004)

Hopefully the housing problems of this country will see a pendulum swing back to the communities of old.  In the last five years I have noticed a big change in the family set up in the North-East.  

It is no point us sitting here trying to intellectualise what is a non intellect issue.  Does a violent movie inspire me to go out and give somebody a first class hiding?  No.  Does said movie inspire the loser who lives two doors down to go out and give somebody a beaten?  Yes.   The difference being about 50+ in IQ.  Would the loser who lives two doors away have been violent in pre industrial Britain?  Yes.  

The points made about parenting are perhaps the most valid, with regards to this thread IMO.


----------



## Lucifer (Nov 8, 2004)

I know that it's probably sick, but a huge number of my friends went to see "The Passion of the Christ" as pure entertainment.  They treated it like a faked snuff film.  I have to say that I agree with Stanley and Kyle on South Park that it might make just a wee bit more sense to examine the life of Christ to get the point across as opposed to how he died.  However, it a great example of desensitization.  Most of my friends came away from the film saying, "I expected it to have a lot more gore," and feeling disappointed about it.  I don't know anyone who took it seriously.  I bawled my eyes out when Reverend Jimmy got crucified in Stephen King's "Kingdom Hospital," but "Passion" just bored me, turned my stomach, and made me think of other things.  I have no interest in ever seeing it again.  "Braveheart" on the other hand . . .

Lucifer.


----------



## Lacedaemonian (Nov 9, 2004)

The Scotch-Irish immigrants were the founders of the Ku Klux Klan.  There is a place not far from where I live, where a tiny English army battered the might of Scotland and captured the Scottish King.  The Scottish thought they would invade England whilst we were away fighting the might of France.  We of course defeated both armies.  The pretenders.


----------



## Silk (Nov 9, 2004)

I personally think that the only reason violence on TV and in video games is blamed is just used as an excuse by the parents of mentally unhinged teenagers so they don't have to blame themselves.

Take the Jamie Bulger case about 10 years ago; two kids of something like 12 & 14 kidnapped a toddler and murdered him; apparently because they were influenced by the Childsplay movie.

I mean to start with what are two 12 and 14 year old kids doing with that movie in the first place??? its rated an 18 for goodness sake and these rating are there for a purpose and there are some parents out there that just ignore them!

I was reading on another forum about a guy who worked in a games store and a bloke came in with his 10 year old kid and bought him Manhunt and these people then complain because some teenager later decided to kill one of his classmates with a hammer!!

I don't actually believe that violence in movies does motivate the average person to go out and commit murder but it is possible that the images in violent films and video games do influence people who are perhaps already somewhat mentally unstable - or just haven't been taught the fundimental principals of whats right and wrong which goes back a bit to what Lucifer said about parents _forgetting_ they have kids - but in general they are just used as a scapegoat so that young people going around killing each other isn't anyones fault


----------



## Maryjane (Nov 9, 2004)

I don't actually believe that violence in movies does motivate the average person to go out and commit murder but it is possible that the images in violent films and video games do influence people who are perhaps already somewhat mentally unstable - or just haven't been taught the fundimental principals of whats right and wrong which goes back a bit to what Lucifer said about parents _forgetting_ they have kids - but in general they are just used as a scapegoat so that young people going around killing each other isn't anyones fault

_I couldn't agree more with that. Not to mention growing up in a dysfunctional environmnet. Mom and dad does it, why not me to. _
_If I remember correctly there was a similar discussion in one of the threads here earlier._


----------



## Whitestar (Nov 25, 2004)

I said:
			
		

> After discussing the Star Wars Episode II violence with WhiteStar, I figured it was time to really address questions of film violence.
> 
> When I was younger, accusations that film violence was affecting our generation seemed groundless, and like all good liberals we argued that film violence was merely an imitation of the growing violence on our streets.
> 
> ...


 
George Lucas has mentioned that episode 3 will be the darkest of the Star Wars movies. In addition, there will be more fightings as well. I just wonder exactly how violent this final chapter of the Star Wars series is going to be.


Whitestar


----------

