# Turning things on their head.



## slashandburn (Feb 5, 2011)

Howdy all.

I'm in the planing stage of what I would like to be a fantasy series detailing the decay of an empire as the backdrop to an ongoing war between Heaven and Hell for the hearts and minds of the people.

One of the key ideas I'm working with is that all we understand regarding Elves and Orcs is back to front; the Elves are actually the dangerous ones whilst the Orcs turn out to be victims of Elven slander and propaganda and are the real heroes after all.

Does this sound at all interesting to people?  If not, why not.

Cheers.


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## sloweye (Feb 5, 2011)

Sounds interesting, but Heaven & Hell? _Orcs & Elves_? 
i'm thinking Angels & Demons would be a more suitable option.


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## slashandburn (Feb 5, 2011)

The demonic aspects are more in the background.  The Elves and Orcs are the physical, rather than supernatural, side to the conflict with humans caught in the middle.  I'm looking more towards how real people and their actions are affected by demonic actions rather than have brimstone-breathing monsters smash their way around, depicting evil as being closer and more subtle than the average person would like to think.


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## sloweye (Feb 5, 2011)

Well the heaven and hell on going war got my interest but the Orcs and Elves?... not for me i'm afraid. It sounds a little to warhammer for me, but i'm sure there are 40k fans that might take an interest


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## Pyan (Feb 6, 2011)

Sir Terry Pratchett does actually use this idea in Lords and Ladies (contains spoilers) and Unseen Academicals (as does this), but I don't recall a fantasy novel that specifically uses it as the main theme. 

Sounds interesting.


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## slashandburn (Feb 6, 2011)

Thanks all.  I know that Orcs and Elves are a little stale in this day and age, that's why I was asking for peoples thoughts.  I'ld like to do something a bit different with them re. their depictions.  No darklords or such, those cliches are part of the propaganda I was mentioning.


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## Tinsel (Feb 11, 2011)

There is an external power that exists which is able to emancipate or over throw, but I'm not sure if it is evil. It might have more to do with judgment or relation.

Demonic spirits on the other hand, are harmful, and they can attack the mind or the body depending upon what side that the victim is on in relation to the king of the world. So if you were to depict demons, than you should depict them as spirits, and a spirit can attack the mind, but there exists some inter relationship as well between people by which a spirit is able to form it's attack.

Here is an example of a mind attack by a spirit: It enters the victims mind that a certain person has done a bad thing to them, or is planning to do something bad. The victim begins to believe that this is the truth. Maybe the victim will take action, maybe not. It depends upon how fully they believe that this is the truth. Later on, the victim believes that someone else is planning to attack them, someone different. It keeps changing. It continues to transform, and it all has to do with being believed or not, because it can seem so real that it must be true, but than if it keeps changing, it must not be true, and than later on it happens again, and it keeps happening. That is what an evil spirit does.


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## TheEndIsNigh (Feb 11, 2011)

Whilst I agree with your premise that the Elves were the dangerous ones I think trying to tie this in with Heaven and Hell would be a hard sell. 

The old Heaven and Hell thing has been 'covered' for centuries and although there are good examples (Constantine and the like) I don't think it's something that would appeal to me personally (Hey, who am I to ...)

IMO for it to work you would have to work on the premise Middle Earth continued with the last boat the Elves that set off on being sank by some marauding dwarf ship wreckers so that the Elven remnants had to swim back to shore. This could be referenced to as the Big Betrayal' of long long ago and give an excuse for the waring factions to establish sides.

That way the humans would still be the underdogs and the 'enhanced peoples' would carry on as before though with no super power to unite against. Men would be essentially weak and useless without the support of Elves Dwarfs and the rest. Your hero could be a super human that would set about putting things right.


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## Tinsel (Feb 11, 2011)

In a heaven versus hell scenario, I believe that one side that is on the earth will beacon to God to enter into a war conflict. It will call upon God using extreme force, which should draw out angels. 

I sort of agree that humanity would be caught in the middle but also perhaps humanity has some role in it's own salvation which would give it strength or insight because we are held in higher esteem by God than the angels.

Thus you have a battle between the light and the dark, no matter how you want to characterize it (with elves and orcs). Yet you must define what the light is and what the dark is, and the connection to humanity.


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## RJM Corbet (Mar 29, 2011)

slashandburn said:


> Howdy all.
> 
> I'm in the planing stage of what I would like to be a fantasy series detailing the decay of an empire as the backdrop to an ongoing war between Heaven and Hell for the hearts and minds of the people.
> 
> ...


Just write it bro', before someone else takes your idea ...


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