# Why is a dragon a worm?



## Danny McG (Apr 5, 2017)

My 14 year old is more into 'old school' fantasy than sci fi like me. He's been asking recently about dragons.
Why are they sometimes called Great Worms? Also 'Orms'?
Who decided that this flying creature covered in scales that can blast fire is a worm? (wouldn't fancy digging in their garden)

Cheers 
Danny


----------



## farntfar (Apr 5, 2017)

Not all dragons have wings or fly of course.
At which point, they are just great worms.

For instance, in the Silmarillion, the dragon in the story of Turin didn't. 
Tolkien say there somewhere, that Morgoth had not yet created the flying worms.


----------



## SilentRoamer (Apr 5, 2017)

I think in traditional European mythology Dragons were often described as Wyrm, this can be seen as far back as Beowulf. Descriptions used are the Anglo Saxon of "to bend" which indicates a more snake like body rather than more lizard like.

I think a lot of this has to do with the roots and origins of mythical dragons, I expect they have an origin firmly rooted in the snake.


----------



## The Big Peat (Apr 5, 2017)

Orm is just snake/worm in most of the Scandinavian languages. The original conceptions of dragons were very snake like.


----------



## The Judge (Apr 5, 2017)

From the Online Etymology Dictionary:



> *worm* (n.)
> Old English wurm, variant of wyrm "serpent, snake, dragon, reptile," also in later Old English "earthworm," from Proto-Germanic *wurmiz (source also of Old Saxon, Old High German, German wurm, Old Frisian and Dutch worm, Old Norse ormr, Gothic waurms "serpent, worm"), from PIE *wrmi- "worm" (source also of Greek rhomos, Latin vermis"worm," Old Russian vermie "insects," Lithuanian varmas "insect, gnat"), probably from root *wer- (3) "turn"...
> 
> The ancient category of these was much more extensive than the modern, scientific, one and included serpents, scorpions, maggots, and the supposed causes of certain diseases. For substitution of -o- for -u-, see come. As an insult meaning "abject, miserable person" it dates from Old English. Worms "any disease arising from the presence of parasitic worms" is from late Old English.


So the use of "worm" for dragons etc, albeit spelled differently,  actually predates the use of it for earthworm.


----------



## Ursa major (Apr 5, 2017)

If I recall correctly, Siegfried fights a Wurm in the opera of that name and had a (wheeled) dragon made (in England, I think) for the opera's first performance.

Unfortunately, the long neck went missing _en route_ to Bayreuth, which made the hero's actions look somewhat less heroic than originally envisaged.


Oh, and Lindworm, in British heraldry,





> is a technical term for a wingless bipedal dragon, often with a venomous bite. In Norwegian heraldry a _lindorm_ is the same as the wyvern in British heraldry. The most famous lindworm is Jörmungandr.


----------



## farntfar (Apr 5, 2017)

Well an excuse to wheel this out again.........

The Lambton Worm

One Sunday morn young Lambton went
A-fishing' in the Wear;
An' catched a fish upon he's heuk,
He thowt leuk't varry queer.
But whatt'n a kind of fish it was
Young Lambton cuddent tell.
He waddn't fash te carry'd hyem,
So he hoyed it doon a well.

cho: Whisht! Lads, haad yor gobs,
    An Aa'll tell ye's aall an aaful story
    Whisht! Lads, haad yor gobs,
    An' Aa'll tell ye  'boot the worm.

Noo Lambton felt inclined te gan
An' fight i' foreign wars.
he joined a troop o' Knights that cared
For nowther woonds nor scars,
An' off he went te Palestine
Where queer things him befel,
An' varry seun forgat aboot
The queer worm i' the well.

But the worm got fat an' growed and' growed
An' growed an aaful size;
He'd greet big teeth, a greet big gob,
An' greet big goggle eyes.
An' when at neets he craaled aboot
Te pick up bits o' news,
If he felt dry upon the road,
He milked a dozen coos.

This feorful worm wad often feed
On caalves an' lambs an' sheep,
An' swally little barins alive
When they laid doon te sleep.
An' when he'd eaten aall he cud
An' he had had he's fill,
He craaled away an' lapped he's tail
Seven times roond Pensher Hill.

The news of this myest aaful worm
An' his queer gannins on
Seun crossed the seas, gat te the ears
Ov brave and' bowld Sor John.
So hyem he cam an' catched the beast
An' cut 'im in twe haalves,
An' that seun stopped he's eatin' bairns,
An' sheep an' lambs and caalves.

So noo ye knaa hoo aall the foaks
On byeth sides ov the Wear
Lost lots o' sheep an' lots o' sleep
An' leeved i' mortal feor.
So let's hev one te brave Sor John
That kept the bairns frae harm,
Saved coos an' caalves by myekin' haalves
O' the famis Lambton Worm.


----------



## Danny McG (Apr 5, 2017)

Thanks all.
I've enough info now to bluff my way with him as the 'font of all knowledge' when he asks me again about the dragon/worm issue.
Ta again 
Danny


----------



## Danny McG (Apr 5, 2017)

farntfar said:


> Well an excuse to wheel this out again.........
> 
> The Lambton Worm
> 
> ...



Amazingly similar to 'Auld Cumberland' dialect. I understood it all at the first reading


----------



## farntfar (Apr 5, 2017)

Don't ask me. I'm from Essex.

We used to have a Geordie at work many years ago, who would give us a recital of this.
And a lot of other stuff which was not for polite company.
Usually after too many pints of Guinness at lunchtime, which was often enough that I can still recite it myself, with ,I think, a fair approximation of his accent. (slurs and all).


----------



## J Riff (Apr 5, 2017)

Yup, one original ET was a giant annelid wyrm, sometimes mistaken for a snake, like Quetzacotl. Flying worms aren't nearly so cool-sounding as 'Dragon' so that's how the language evolves, through mistakes and stupidity.


----------



## pambaddeley (Apr 5, 2017)

Another ballad was the Laidly Worm of Spindleston Heugh, which I first came across years ago in an old book on folktales - The Laidly Worm of Spindleston Heugh - Wikipedia


----------



## Danny McG (Apr 12, 2017)




----------



## Ursa major (Apr 12, 2017)

Someone has... er... unearthed a backbone, it seems....


----------



## Lafayette (Apr 12, 2017)

I kind of think it all goes back the Garden of Eden where God cursed the Serpent by making him crawl on his belly like a worm. 

If you think about it the smallest snake in the world the Leptotyphlops carlae, is thin as a spaghetti noodle, and can rest on a US quarter. A snake that small can easily be mistaken or thought of as a worm. 

Another thought comes to mind and that is the word worm could be considered a demeaning or derogatory term for Satan. 

If you want to insult or demean someone you usually imply that they're the lowest of the lowest and except for some exceptions a worm to most naked eyes is the lowest of the lowest.


----------



## Danny McG (Apr 12, 2017)

Interesting info there Lafayette. I never thought of the religious aspect of it. 
I know in the Roman Catholic Bible there is (or there was a long time ago when I was a young altar boy) a book called Bel and the Dragon. I don't think it made the cut into the Protestant Bibles.
I can't remember this, does anyone know if the Dragon in that Bible book was meant to be Satan?


----------



## The Ace (Apr 12, 2017)

Ursa major said:


> If I recall correctly, Siegfried fights a Wurm in the opera of that name and had a (wheeled) dragon made (in England, I think) for the opera's first performance.
> 
> Unfortunately, *the long neck went missing en route to Bayreuth*, which made the hero's actions look somewhat less heroic than originally envisaged.
> 
> ...



(My bold) - Is that the one that ended up in Beirut ?

I still remember the little dialogue with Hoopy, when she asked if she was a dragon, a drake, or a wyrm - the answer surprised her even more.


----------



## Kylara (Apr 12, 2017)

I think you mean why is a worm a dragon. Dragon much better, but wyrm an older word. I like to look at the earthwyrms and give them impressive dragon names and make them tiny wings. 

Dragons are amazing. Wyrms are amazing. Dragonwyrms are obviously the way forward and the best by far


----------



## Lafayette (Apr 12, 2017)

dannymcg said:


> I can't remember this, does anyone know if the Dragon in that Bible book was meant to be Satan?



As far as I can make out the flesh and blood dragon in that story was an inferior creator and in my opinion was too lamb to represent Satan.

If you wish you can google Bel and the Dragon and read it and decide for yourself.


----------



## Danny McG (Apr 13, 2017)

Googled it. You're correct. It was a wimp dragon. 
Memory failure on my part.
Danny


----------

