# 100 Greatest Britons



## Connavar (Apr 5, 2015)

_*100 Greatest Britons* was broadcast in 2002 by the BBC. The programme was based on a television poll conducted to determine whom the United Kingdom public considered the greatest British people in history._

You guys must have seen this programme or remember when this poll happened.  I was wondering seriously what you guys think of the top 10 in the list?  Do you agree or disagree?

Also make your own Top 10 greatest britons ever in your own eyes.  Of course there can be Irish persons too like some of the ones that made the original 100 list.  The point of this thread is not to debate popular vote or what is "britishness" but to hail some of the great historical persons.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Greatest_Britons


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## Connavar (Apr 5, 2015)

*Top 10 on the list*


Sir Winston Churchill
Isambard Kingdom Brunel
Diana, Princess of Wales
Charles Darwin
William Shakespeare
Sir Isaac Newton
Elizabeth I
John Lennon
Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson
Oliver Cromwell


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## Venusian Broon (Apr 5, 2015)

From my distant memories of the program, my feeling was that the order that was given was partially down to the advocates and recent history at the time. Basically Jeremy Clarkson argued for Brunel, and I think the force of his gigantic personality (and head) swayed a lot of petrol heads to vote for him. Brunel is a great Briton but he's not 2nd in my list at all. Also Diana, Princess of Wales, had just died five years before and was still in many's memories - I think if the poll was to be re-run she would drop down. 

I think I actually did vote - for Isaac Newton (but then I would as I'm a Physicist by training ) Then Darwin would move up too.

I would disagree with Winston Churchill at the top - because he was a complex man. Yes he was exactly what the country needed to fight off Hitler, but then he was also an ardent imperialist and old-fashioned (the electorate saw that in the polls in 1945*) Was the one of those responsible for the disaster at Gallipoli as well as a catalogue of other ills. 

Shakespeare goes without saying - but oddly I'd also stick with Elizabeth I up there (oddly, because she was never _my _queen! My [unofficial**] Elizabeth the first is still on the throne today  ) but she was the first successful English queen and had a great deal of power and success in very trying times. 




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* and I should point out he lost again in 1950, although to be fair to him 20 months later he got back in!
** I know, I know the numbering rules are for whatever leads on from the highest king/queen either side of the border...


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## Ray McCarthy (Apr 5, 2015)

Pretty nutty list. 
Half of them could be replaced by far more worthy people.
Seems to be more a vox populi "who can you remember" list.
Some were not "great" at all.


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## thaddeus6th (Apr 5, 2015)

Diana and Lennon were dramatically overrated. Alfred the Great should be on that list, perhaps likewise Edward III. 

I like history but I'm not that into modern history (I prefer Roman stuff, by and large) so I don't feel that qualified to comment much further.


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## Connavar (Apr 5, 2015)

Venusian Broon said:


> From my distant memories of the program, my feeling was that the order that was given was partially down to the advocates and recent history at the time. Basically Jeremy Clarkson argued for Brunel, and I think the force of his gigantic personality (and head) swayed a lot of petrol heads to vote for him. Brunel is a great Briton but he's not 2nd in my list at all. *Also Diana, Princess of Wales, had just died five years before and was still in many's memories - I think if the poll was to be re-run she would drop down. *
> 
> *I think I actually did vote - for Isaac Newton (but then I would as I'm a Physicist by training ) Then Darwin would move up too.*
> 
> ...




I respect Diana for her charity work and like you said her tragic death few years before the vote helped her cause.  She has nothing to do with a top 10 list of greatest britons with the likes legendary people in the history of mankind like Shakespeare,Elizabeth I, Sir Isaac Newton,Darwin.

Churchil was important for WWII but he was after all a minister who lost, one of the people who created the modern borders for nations in the middle east and one of the reasons for the mess today.   I agree he would not top the list as nr.1 for me either.  A smart politician comes and goes often but legendary Queens who changed her nations history, greatest playright in history, Newton and Darwin is more greater in my eyes.  He is a given in top 5-10 but not nr. 1 imo.  

How would your top 10 look?   I would keep from that top 10 list Shakespeare, Elizabeth I,Newton,Darwin,Churchill.   Lennon,Diana, Brunel would not be in my top 10.


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## Connavar (Apr 5, 2015)

Ray McCarthy said:


> Pretty nutty list.
> Half of them could be replaced by far more worthy people.
> Seems to be more a vox populi "who can you remember" list.
> Some were not "great" at all.



Some were not great?  You mean in the top 10 list or the 100 list in general?   Who would you remove from the top 10?  Create your own top 10 just to see who is more worthy in your eyes.


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## Venusian Broon (Apr 5, 2015)

Using the top 100 (I don't have the energy to think up any new ones!) 


Sir Isaac Newton

Charles Darwin

William Shakespeare
Emmeline Pankhurst
Sir Winston Churchill
James Clerk Maxwell
Florence Nightingale

Michael Faraday

Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington
Elizabeth I

Would be my first personal stab at it. As you can see I'm more of a science-leaning person when it comes to greats!


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## Ray McCarthy (Apr 5, 2015)

Oh no ... I'm not going there.

First you need to define "Great" anyway.
Does it make sense to have Celebrities, "Culture" (in widest sense), Engineering, Science, Economics, Politics, Entrepreneurs, Empire builders, Military, etc top people in the* same* top 10 and top 100 at all?

No it's nonsense to compare Politicians with Scientists. You need different categories, even if you do have a sensible definition of great.

How can a Pop star (no matter how good) be compared to discoverer of Antibiotics, Cecil Rhodes, Designer of London Sewers, developer of Modern Machine tools (Babbage, also groundbreaking book on Economics), Alan Blumlein, Brunell, QU I, leaders of Suffragettes etc etc?


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## Venusian Broon (Apr 5, 2015)

Ray McCarthy said:


> Oh no ... I'm not going there.
> 
> First you need to define "Great" anyway.
> Does it make sense to have Celebrities, "Culture" (in widest sense), Engineering, Science, Economics, Politics, Entrepreneurs, Empire builders, Military, etc top people in the* same* top 10 and top 100 at all?



I totally agree...but it's a bit of flim-flam fun to debate these problems as well 

I mean David Beckham came in at number 33. 

David-feckin'-Beckham. A haircut that can kick a ball well, who married a pop star that could barely hold a note (unless they were a wad of tenners), is the thirty-third greatest Briton in all history (as of 2002) 

Not with me. 

But the original program did it with a vote, so it's popular democracy in action.


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## Ray McCarthy (Apr 5, 2015)

Venusian Broon said:


> I'm more of a science-leaning person when it comes to greats


Plenty of those are not Scientists.
Since about 1500; Science, Mathematics, Engineering have been perhaps the most important areas anyway. Then Businessmen with the vision to invest in the technology. Then Writers, Politicians, Artists and Architects then maybe Military people.
People campaigning for rights etc (Women Votes, children in Mines & Chimneys) don't fit into the grades of importance.

How do you decide if Lord Kelvin, Churchill, Pankhurst, Fleming, Babbage* or Shakespeare is greater in "Greatness" rank? It's impossible. They are in such different areas.

The most important or Great "Britons" in last 500 or 600 years in many cases are not even known to most of the public.

[*Babbage (and Lovelace) while famous for Mechanical computer, his main lasting greatness was advancing UK to world leader in Machine Tools and his book on Economics and Industrialisation. Most people have never even heard of Alan Blumlein, perhaps the most important engineer in UK from 1924 till 1942. Or Tommy Flowers who helped win WWII]


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## BAYLOR (Apr 5, 2015)

*George Graham *Inventor /clockmaker . Among the the thing he came up with . He invented the deadbeat escapement for clocks. This is significant because it resulted in more accurate timepieces.

*John Harrison* inventor of the practical Marine chronometer.

*Thomas Tompion   *clockmaker/watchmaker and master engraver, he was a great craftsman, one of the greatest of all time. His clocks and watches and engravings are among the finest ever made.


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## Faisal Shamas (Apr 7, 2015)

My top 10 would be:

Henry VIII
Sir Isaac Newton
John Locke
Shakespeare
Sir Francis Bacon
Charles Darwin
Elizabeth I
Anselm of Canterbury
Jeremy Bentham
Lord Kelvin


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## thaddeus6th (Apr 7, 2015)

A philosophical list [I have vague memories of Bentham, and even vaguer of Anselm, from school]. Mildly surprised Henry VII's top dog. What made you pick him?


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## Faisal Shamas (Apr 7, 2015)

Thought He affected history the most, Henry VIII it should be, with his Protestant Reformation, and taking on the Papacy. He had a gut to do that, and take on some powerful Catholic nobles


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## BAYLOR (Apr 18, 2015)

What about T E Lawrence?


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## Ray McCarthy (Apr 18, 2015)

He's not Arabian?


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## BAYLOR (Apr 18, 2015)

Ray McCarthy said:


> He's not Arabian?



I have to admit ive often wonder why they called him Lawrence of Arabia and yet he's not from there. It must be because of the David Lean film.


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## BAYLOR (Apr 18, 2015)

*Sir Richard Burton

Charles James Fox*


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## BAYLOR (Apr 19, 2015)

*Alexander Fleming  * the man who came up with Penicillin


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## Connavar (Apr 19, 2015)

BAYLOR said:


> I have to admit ive often wonder why they called him Lawrence of Arabia and *yet he's not from there. It must be because of the David Lean film*.



Of that i have read about him, it was because he lead bedouins, in the Great War, Arab Revol, intelligence officer, leader.  He connected the leader of those Arab warriors to the allies.

*On January 3, 1917, Lawrence went off on his first desert raid with 35 armed tribesmen. Under cover of darkness, they rode their camels out of camp, dismounted and scrambled up a steep hill overlooking a Turkish encampment, which they peppered with rifle fire until driven off. Returning, they came across two Turks relieving themselves, and took them back to camp for questioning. That minor triumph was later counterbalanced by a small tragedy when, to prevent a crippling blood feud from breaking out, Lawrence had to personally execute a member of his own band, a deed that would haunt him for the rest of his life.[21]At the end of March, Lawrence set off on his first raid against the railway, a Turkish station at Abu el-Naam. After carefully reconnoitering it, Lawrence crept down to the lines at nightfall and laid a Garland mine under the tracks, cutting the telegraph wires as he left.*

Sure his good looks helped get him better media, fame long before the film but he did actual dangerous works for many years in the real world outside any Hollywood film.   He is also a pretty important writer that is still famous, importan over here in Sweden too.

Sure he might not be the greateast Briton ever but he did important ,dangerous real world work to his own country, to other peoples eyes too.  Lets not dismiss the guy because of a Peter O'Toole classic heroic Hollywood looks, film


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## BAYLOR (Apr 19, 2015)

Connavar said:


> Of that i have read about him, it was because he lead bedouins, in the Great War, Arab Revol, intelligence officer, leader.  He connected the leader of those Arab warriors to the allies.
> 
> *On January 3, 1917, Lawrence went off on his first desert raid with 35 armed tribesmen. Under cover of darkness, they rode their camels out of camp, dismounted and scrambled up a steep hill overlooking a Turkish encampment, which they peppered with rifle fire until driven off. Returning, they came across two Turks relieving themselves, and took them back to camp for questioning. That minor triumph was later counterbalanced by a small tragedy when, to prevent a crippling blood feud from breaking out, Lawrence had to personally execute a member of his own band, a deed that would haunt him for the rest of his life.[21]At the end of March, Lawrence set off on his first raid against the railway, a Turkish station at Abu el-Naam. After carefully reconnoitering it, Lawrence crept down to the lines at nightfall and laid a Garland mine under the tracks, cutting the telegraph wires as he left.*
> 
> ...



He was a very fascinating man. Larger then life.


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## J Riff (Apr 19, 2015)

I agree, a few of these are not-so-great. I, poisonally, am diseligible for this list since I am only half Brit.
That makes me either a "Br' or an 'It' and I though I can fake an accent rawther well, it's a non-paying position as far as I can discern. Where are some Pythons? And ... Boy George and Geldof? I am returning my MBE in a huff. *


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## Ray McCarthy (Apr 19, 2015)

J Riff said:


> Boy George and Geldof


Boy George (George Alan O'Dowd) has Irish Parents. Since he was actually born in UK I suppose he's a Brit. [Edit: I see the name of the Band "Culture Club" was because the others regarded him as Irish]
Geldof was born and brought up in Dún Laoghaire, Ireland, a son of Robert and Evelyn Geldof.  

They are both a tad "Western British" type of Irish. We tend to think of Greater Dublin and surrounds as Western Britian, AKA "The Pale."

Technically if your parents or Grandparents born ANYWHERE in Island of Ireland before 1922, you're a "Brit", if you want to be. Most Irish people prefer not. 

I'm as Irish or as British as I want to be on any given day.


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## BAYLOR (Apr 20, 2015)

*Charles Babbage 
Alan Turing
Ada Lovelace 
*
Three  people important in the field of computer history.
*

*


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## JunkMonkey (Apr 20, 2015)

Ray McCarthy said:


> Boy George (George Alan O'Dowd) has Irish Parents. Since he was actually born in UK I suppose he's a Brit. [Edit: I see the name of the Band "Culture Club" was because the others regarded him as Irish]
> Geldof was born and brought up in Dún Laoghaire, Ireland, a son of Robert and Evelyn Geldof.
> 
> They are both a tad "Western British" type of Irish. We tend to think of Greater Dublin and surrounds as Western Britian, AKA "The Pale."
> ...




The thread is "100 Greatest Britons" not "100 Greatest British People".

Ireland is part of the (geographical) British Isles so anyone born in Ireland (or any of the other British Isles) is a 'Briton'. 

I speak as someone with English ancestors, born in England living in Scotland and proudly Scottish - not a _Scot _but Scottish.  ...and a Briton.

Defining nationality in these crowded, history-stuffed islands is fun isn't it?


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## BAYLOR (Apr 20, 2015)

*Adam Smith
Walter Bagehot *


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## Ray McCarthy (Apr 20, 2015)

JunkMonkey said:


> Ireland is part of the (geographical) British Isles so anyone born in Ireland (or any of the other British Isles) is a 'Briton'.


No, sorry, that won't wash with most people on the western side of the Irish Sea. Most people in the Country of Ireland and even on the Island of Ireland do not call themselves "Britons".  The Welsh of course sometimes claim to be the remaining Britons, so they can't object as Irish do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute


> In documents drawn up jointly between the British and Irish governments, the archipelago is referred to simply as "these islands".



"100 Greatest Britons" is synonym for  "100 Greatest British People".


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## J Riff (Apr 20, 2015)

No Ringo, he must be fuming.***


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## BAYLOR (Apr 20, 2015)

*C. S. Lewis*


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## BAYLOR (Apr 20, 2015)

*Frank Whittle*


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## J Riff (Apr 21, 2015)

No drummers. 3, 4 lousy guitar players but not a single drummer  Tolkien is great, sure, but Bono? I like Ringo's singing just as better nor him. Really, it's not fair. Without the drums the rest of them sound like folky yodelers.


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## Boaz (Apr 24, 2015)

Others unlisted and as of yet, unmentioned... Jonathan Swift, Robert Burns, Bede, St. Patrick, Columba, John Wesley, David Hume, John Stuart Mill, George Bernard Shaw, James Joyce, Gladstone, John Wycliffe, Thomas a'Becket, or even Samuel Beckett.... I'd put Bill Slim ahead of Monty.


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## svalbard (Apr 25, 2015)

Columba, Samuel Beckett and James Joyce were both Irish. Bede was a Anglo-Saxon and hated the Britons...pedantically slips away...


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## JunkMonkey (Apr 26, 2015)

svalbard said:


> Columba, Samuel Beckett and James Joyce were both Irish. Bede was a Anglo-Saxon and hated the Britons...pedantically slips away...



I would.  Apparently 'Briton' on this thread  means 'British' not just that small group of Welsh people (if any) still living in furs and throwing pointed sticks at invading Romans, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Normans and Uncle Tom Cobley and all.  

Whether those people of the British overseas territories who are British by origins or naturalization or those who have immigrated to these shores and chosen to become British citizens are eligible for inclusion is another question.


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## BAYLOR (Apr 26, 2015)

*Tobias Smollett*


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## BAYLOR (Apr 26, 2015)

*Sir Edmund Hillary *


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## BAYLOR (Apr 28, 2015)

*Hugh Dowding 
Sir Keith Park     * without these two men the Battle of Britain has different outcome


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## Caledfwlch (May 28, 2015)

As I understand it, until the reign of Elizabeth 1st, the terms Briton and British Language specifically referred to the Welsh & Cornish and their languages.

There is a well known letter from a French Ambassador writing home to his King - the King wanted to know what peoples inhabit the Island of Britain, so the Ambassador did the easiest thing and asked his English buddies at Court.

IIRC, the reason this changed was due to a Welsh legend. We had the myth (or indeed half remembered reality) that a Prince Madog of Gwynedd (either in 12th century or 6th) sailed, possibly from Porthmadog with a load of people and dsicovered a new land far to the west. One of the claims made these days is he possibly landed i Mobile, Alabama and his people intergrated with the Mandan Tribe (lots of claims, esp during the US war of independence that the Mandans spoke a language similar to Welsh, enough that Welsh speaking British Officers could understand them, and lived in medieval european style stone fortified buildings, rather than traditional teepee's, but those stories could very well be and likely are British Propoganda)

Everyone in Europe at Liz 1's time was in a race to grab chunks of the new World. Liz 1 of course was a Tudor, and the Tudor's were descended at least in part from the Kings of the Welsh Kingdom of Deheubarth. And John Dee or someone pointed out to her that, that, thertefore gave her a claim on the new world. Even though of course, descent ffrom Deheubarth did not give any claim on Gwynedd's "posessions" . So the English became British too, well, anything to trump the evil Spaniards I suppose


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## JunkMonkey (May 28, 2015)

BAYLOR said:


> *Sir Edmund Hillary *



...was a Kiwi.


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## The Ace (May 28, 2015)

BAYLOR said:


> *C. S. Lewis*



Irish.

I think Princess Diana was too high up the list, but don't really consider myself British.  I'd also think twice about Shakespeare after the hatchet-job he did on MacBeth.  The fact that his patron, James VI, was a descendant of royal by-blow, traitor and double regicide Malcolm III Canmore is no excuse (the play doesn't mention Malcolm's illegitimacy, or the murder of Lulach the Fool, MacBeth's successor, but does mention the English army he led into Scotland.  Malcolm must've been remarkably precocious at 7 to hold such a discussion with his 2-year-old brother on the night of their father's death).


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## Ray McCarthy (May 28, 2015)

The Ace said:


> Irish.


Technically. But equally British. Not English though.
Born in U.K., lived most of his life on the mainland.

Irish and British is complicated in a way for people living in any part of the Island of Ireland. I lived for six years near the house where C.S. Lewis grew up.



The Ace said:


> Princess Diana was too high up the list


Absolutely. 



The Ace said:


> think twice about Shakespeare


Also on Richard. That was Tudor propaganda.

Shakespeare took even stories that have non-tragic ending in some versions and spiced up the tragedy. e.g. King Lear. 

Shakespeare:

Was conscious he lived in a paranoid Police State (Elizabeth I invented the idea).
Liked Tragedies

Painted any potential enemies of the Regime blacker.
Still, a literary genius, esp not to end up executed.


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## Caledfwlch (May 29, 2015)

I don't understand why the hell Diana was even on the list at all. Even No 100 would be ludicrous. The readers of a certain newspaper must have packed hell of a punch in the voting. It's a totally messed up and oddly balanced list though. Oliver Cromwell, a greatest Briton? A religious nutcase who butchered his way around Ireland? Any list that puts John Lennon a druggie song writer and Diana who's main claim to fame was bagging a Prince, and then cheating on him, including bearing another mans child, clearly has issues lol I like Lennon, I like a lot of his music, though prefer Solo to the beatles crap. (not a fan) but top 10?

Duke of Wellington should be top 10. He faced off and defeated a threat to the British Isles almost as severe as the one Churchill faced in 1939. Imagine Wellyboots failed in 1812/13, the British Army of the Peninsular has been comprehensively smashed, Wellyboots is either dead or a prisoner, as are the subordinate Generals that he trusted, the likes of Picton his military allies in equal disaray.

This means that the British Army has effectively ceased to exist in a Europe/Britain context, apart from troops deployed into Ireland, and new recruits undergoing training in barracks, the mainland United Kingdom is mostly defended by local Militia. It could take months to get troops back from Colonial interests and wars abroad, India, North America, Australasia. It has lost its best Generals, in a European context again at least. Remember before Sir Arthur was sent to Portugal, the AOP and the War against Boney was near enough a total disaster. What Britain faces after such a defeat cannot have much potential for good.

Aye, Boney has recently been spanked in Russia, but he has now destroyed the greatest threat to his ambitions. The Emperor will shortly once more control all of  Spain and Portugal, he has iirc part of Italy, and most of the provinces of Belgium and the Netherlands, and big swathes of Germany are under his control, or soon will be once more. 

As soon as he can get his hands on enough ships he could mount an invasion of the UK, though thankfully the Royal Navy is very much a force to be reckoned with still. The Parallels with WW2 just seem really close - again in 1940/1 the only thing that prevented an attempted invasion of the UK by Germany was the might of the Royal Navy vs a Kriegsmarine with much less bite. It is why Horatio N deserves to be top 10 since Trafalgar created the position where the French Navy was no threat.

Owain Glyndwr is on the list, which makes some people raise eyebrows, but why not. Of course, as a Welshman, who's hometown flies his familial royal standard, the Banner of Aberffraw as frequently as the Red Dragon (despite not being in Gwynedd) I am happy for him to be on the list, but we Brits also love the underdog!

And come on what an underdog!! He turns an argument with a neighbour into a full scale rebellion, liberates huge chunks of Wales and destroys iirc 3 entire English Armies, relying heavily on peasants with War Bows. If I remember my history, had the last battle failed for England, and especially if the Hotspur's had revolted from the North in time, the King would have been completely bankrupt. Not bad going for an underdog! 

It is one of those things that bring out my awe at how history balances on the strangest moments. Knowing he had a War in France to fight, the King, once hostilities in Wales were over, straight away began pardoning any Welshman skilled with a War Bow who would sign up to fight in France for him, and of course, not long after, English and Welsh Peasants near exterminated and universally embarressed the Nobility of France at a small place called Azincourt.

Equally Dafydd Gam (Davey Gam) refused to join Owain in his revolt, as he had taken an Oath to the King, and was a man of his word - at Azincourt he took a mortal wound saving the King's life, had he joined Owain, Azincourt could well have turned out different had the King died....


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## bedlamite (Jun 22, 2015)

Boy George and J K Rowling are eye openers on the list. Like it was a list made by Alan Partridge.


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## Caledfwlch (Jun 23, 2015)

bedlamite said:


> Boy George and J K Rowling are eye openers on the list. Like it was a list made by Alan Partridge.



She certainly deserves to be in the top ten rather than William Shakespeare!!

Since 1997, she has been getting kids hooked on reading, and hopefully undoing the damage done by Shakespeare, which is via his works, to stop children from developing an interest in reading!


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## bedlamite (Jun 23, 2015)

I can see the validity of that reason; a lifer bookworm like most on here probably are never needed the push that other kids may have needed. Good point. But surely the age of the kids is different? Shakespeare doesn't happen in their lives at the age they meet young Potter? I've always thought that the teaching of Shakey was where the problem laid. Sitting at a desk is a rubbish, dry way to become accustomed to any play.


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## mosaix (Jun 23, 2015)

Caledfwlch said:


> She certainly deserves to be in the top ten rather than William Shakespeare!!
> 
> Since 1997, she has been getting kids hooked on reading, and hopefully undoing the damage done by Shakespeare, which is via his works, to stop children from developing an interest in reading!



Can't agree, Caledfwlch. Blame Shakespeare's reputation amongst youngsters on teaching methods and him being exposed to youngsters far too soon.

Shakespeare was a genius. I don't think they'll ever say that about Rowling.

Take the vote again in, say, 20 years and Rowling will have been replaced by the latest fad author but Shakespeare will still be there. In 100 years (probably sooner) Diana and Lennon will have gone as well. On the other hand Darwin, Shakespeare, Newton etc....


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## Caledfwlch (Jun 23, 2015)

bedlamite said:


> I can see the validity of that reason; a lifer bookworm like most on here probably are never needed the push that other kids may have needed. Good point. But surely the age of the kids is different? Shakespeare doesn't happen in their lives at the age they meet young Potter? I've always thought that the teaching of Shakey was where the problem laid. Sitting at a desk is a rubbish, dry way to become accustomed to any play.



Maybe thing's have changed now, but in my School, in Wales in the late 80's early 90's, we did Shakespeare in both Primary and Secondary! In fact I think we did more Shakespeare in Primary, as quite often in Secondary English, we did American books like Of Mice and Men and Rumblefish (I think it was called) - it used to baffle me - how are we supposed to learn "proper" English via books from the US which of course had US Spellings etc.

I have known several people who's kids would not touch books until they discovered Harry Potter.


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## JunkMonkey (Jun 23, 2015)

mosaix said:


> Take the vote again in, say, 20 years and Rowling will have been replaced by the latest fad author but Shakespeare will still be there. In 100 years (probably sooner) Diana and Lennon will have gone as well. On the other hand Darwin, Shakespeare, Newton etc....



As exhibit A in support of this proposition: There was a poll in 1999 in the UK to determine the most influential musicians of the millennium. To quote the Guardian newspaper: 'More than 600,000 people judged the musical legacy of Robbie Williams to be more enduring than that of Mozart.'

Which just goes to show you what an awful lot of ignorant twats there are in this country.

(For the younger members of the forum: Robbie Williams was a singer and former member of popular beat combo Take That.)


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## Ray McCarthy (Jun 23, 2015)

No connection to the better known Robin Williams. I've never heard "Robbie" Williams, is he dead too then?


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## Ray McCarthy (Jun 23, 2015)

Caledfwlch said:


> kids would not touch books until they discovered Harry Potter


Media hype. The medja might have picked on Anthony Horowitz instead, who is probably a better writer, who has done more kids books, screen, and grown up books.



Caledfwlch said:


> we did Shakespeare in both Primary


Daft.
The education system is the problem, not Shakespeare.


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## bedlamite (Jun 23, 2015)

Am stunned that folks on here did Shakespeare in Primary education. I wasn't allowed near a pencil sharpener until I was 12.


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## thaddeus6th (Jun 23, 2015)

I didn't do Shakespeare in primary school. Had some difficulty with it at secondary. I recently read (well, re-read) Merchant of Venice, which I did first at school some time ago, and got a lot more out of it.


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## JunkMonkey (Jun 23, 2015)

I know one primary school kid who reads Shakespeare for fun - and my 13 year old daughter could  do great chunks of Titania's speeches from the Dream from memory (She probably still can).  And she adored a one man reworking of Hamlet we saw recently.  The way to get into Shakespeare is to to play it or see it being played.  They're plays. Written to be seen not read.


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