Terry Goodkind

[Suzakk]

Wow, Werthead! You (I'll give *you* credit, though you say you're quoting someone else) hit about a dozen nails on the head in that last post! And I say this as someone who, like Lenny, will continue to read Goodkind's existing and future work.

 

[the_faery_queen]

i don't think danys was rape. he seduced her. she wanted it, the first night at least. and afterwards i think it became mor e acase of her being annoyed that it was the same position, the same thing. she loved him, i just think she wanted to do something different. it doesn't mean it was rape every time. and yes, she was younger than him, but the women of ancient greek times were the same age, marrying much older man, that's just the way their society worked. i guess that'[s why i don't see it as rape because i studied classics, because im used to the concept of women sold, the way her brother sold her (the way cersi's father sold her, tho no one seems to say what her husband did was rape and he even called another woman's name) and of them being so young. the only thing in martin that bothered me was the actual rape of the girl in the tavern. that was far too detailed and totally needless in my opinion. it does kinda bother me how no one seems to object to that, but they do object to the consentual, tho fairly unsettling, sex between danys and her annoying husband.

i guess what im saying is, it's rape by today's standards, it's not rape by theirs, and we need to look at it from their pov. i certainly would say it was ok for an older man to have sex with a younger girl, im totally against forced marriages. but i do accept different times and cultures worked that way in the past because they didn't understand things the way that we do now. they thought women had to be married that young to ensure the husband's paternity of the child. they thought women had to be given away, with a dowry, because they were a burden on their husband, because they couldn't work (becaue men wouldn't let them!) and weren't as smart (beause they weren't educated) so yeah. i look at it with a historian's head on. it's not rape because she consented, because she had been brainwashed into loving him, and because that's how their society worked.

it IS rape if it was to happen today, in a modern book. it doesn't mean what happened to danys is ok, cos i don't thin it is. but i don't think it's rape and i don't see it as that nasty because of my history background.

as for goodkind, i only read four books and there was plenty of rape in 2-4, enough to put me off. and ihave to say, i thought it was very detailed. the rape at that school, the women having sex with those monsters (ok that was consentual, but it was nasty, and left me with the, why is sex had outside of marriage in these books always nasty? it's either rape or monster bonking. ) it's jut too much, too often, detailed or not.

 

[TK-421]

"...monster bonking...". Probably the funniest thing I have read on this otherwise dull thread for a dull author. After book 1, I got some 100 pages into book 2 and coundn't take it anymore. And I'm not one to leave a book after investing time in it. But at least it's pages made good campfire starter.

And, please do not ever compare the writings of a genius such as GRRM to a jerk such as Goodkind.

 

[SaltNpepper]

I stumbled onto Wizards First Rule (WFR) while looking for a "Vol 1" of some sort of fantasy trilogy/series. I had no preconceived ideas about him at all, having not read much in the fantasy genre generally. I have since read all of the series and will read the final book when it comes out.

What struck me most about WFR was just how violent it was (and I'm still not sure how this level of violence compares to other fantasy titles). The threat of violence (especially rape) hangs over the whole book. And my first thought then was what sort of mind comes up with stuff like this; and not only comes up with it but puts down on paper for us all to read. But I read on because there were some interesting elements - the confessor concept, Richard's past, Zedd's past, the whole barrier thing. WFR is by far the best of the series. But all originality really does die from the second book on.

Originality dies but the violence keeps on coming and I'm sure Goodkind has trouble topping the levels of violence as each book passes. I also don't think there was enough left unresolved in WFR to warrant a sequel. Indeed to me the rest of the series seems to be just about obstacles put in the way of Richard and Kahlan being together and ways of stopping Richard using magic (first the collar stopping him using magic, then him finding out his magic is based on need and that he can't control that need, the he must promise to give up the knowledge of how to use magic in the the Temple of the Winds, then magic disappears altogether because of the chimes, then he mustn't use magic because Nicci will kill Kahlan through some bond, then introducing a people immune to magic, he can't use the Sword of Truth or loses the sword and so on. All this so that Goodkind can have Richard resolve problems by reason alone (never mind that Richard is good at everything and he's always right, unlike the average person). And its so incredibly frustrating to read. But I did read, more out of a sense of not having much else to read than enjoyment.

And Goodkind continued to run out of ideas, introducing book long characters and plots, and never really setting anything up long term. In Blood of the Fold Goodkind sets up an anti-magic vigilante movement but kills it off in the same book, only to reintroduce it in a larger form in the Jagang and his Imperial Order, which dominate the last five books, but really there to up the ante on violence and to ensure a new plot doesn't have to be thought up or developed. And the Imperial Order is so completely evil and monolithic it becomes two dimensional.

And then there's the preaching. Objectivism is a brittle and unworkable concept when espoused by Ayn Rand but when it's squeezed into a fantasy world by a second rate mind like Terry Goodkind it looks like cut 'n' paste writing. Oh yeah, I believe that, Ayn Rand wrote that, I'll have Richard say that. So in the middle of a conversation with the other main characters Richard goes of on a rant about how he has to do things his way, he's a slave to nobody, reason can overcome all. And the other characters (who are increasingly wrong most of the time by now) disagree with him but are proved wrong nd continue to get it wrong.

And so it will probably be in the final in the series. Maybe it will be better, less preachy, less black and white, less violent and hopefully more exciting. But I doubt it.

 

[Marvolo]

Originality dies but the violence keeps on coming and I'm sure Goodkind has trouble topping the levels of violence as each book passes. I also don't think there was enough left unresolved in WFR to warrant a sequel. Indeed to me the rest of the series seems to be just about obstacles put in the way of Richard and Kahlan being together and ways of stopping Richard using magic (first the collar stopping him using magic, then him finding out his magic is based on need and that he can't control that need, the he must promise to give up the knowledge of how to use magic in the the Temple of the Winds, then magic disappears altogether because of the chimes, then he mustn't use magic because Nicci will kill Kahlan through some bond, then introducing a people immune to magic, he can't use the Sword of Truth or loses the sword and so on. All this so that Goodkind can have Richard resolve problems by reason alone (never mind that Richard is good at everything and he's always right, unlike the average person). And its so incredibly frustrating to read. But I did read, more out of a sense of not having much else to read than enjoyment.

I completely agree about the sequels. Goodkind has a formula for this series. Problem with Magic + Seperate Richard and Kahlan + A few interesting scenes with Zed + Gratuitous violence = fantasy best seller.

We could all learn from that.

You know he's going to write a How to Write book after this.

You just know it.

As arrogant as he is.

How can he help it?

 

[Lirineth]

As I said somewhere back there, I think that after book 5 I gave up. But I do admit that I am somewhat curious as to what is going on. Kind of what we used to go through with Dallas, you would stop watching it for 2 years and then one night for whatever reason you found yourself in front of the TV and there they were. So my question is are R + K now, any closer to 'happily ever after' than they were on book 1. Because with all the weird things I have been reading in here, somewhere in the back of mi mind there is this little voice that is nagging me to get the last book (if we ever get there) just to see how did he manage to organise all the new relatives, the old relatives, the chikens and everything else that found its way to the books.

Question: How many of you would buy the last book?

 

[Lenny]

In answer to your question - I'll get it from the library... but simply because I have no money.

In September, however, I should have around £200 put aside from my job with which to buy books. I'm thinking of maybe being the entire series, as well as other trilogies and whatnot.

---

So my question is are R + K now, any closer to 'happily ever after' than they were on book 1.

And in answer to this question - not by a long shot! I'll put it in spoilers:

Spoiler

In the first book of the ending trilogy, Chainfire, we find out that Kahlan has been kidnapped by some Sisters of the Dark, who have also cast an ancient spell - Chainfire. Richard is the only who remembers her, as he was holding onto the Sword of Truth when the spell was cast.

In the second and penultimate book, Phantom, Richard is still searching for Kahlan, and ends up being captured himself, twice - first by a sour Princess Violet, and second after going on a merry killing spree and taking out a number of the Imperial Army in friendly territory.

In the final book, Confessor, Richard will find Kahlan, obviously - the end of Phantom saw him entering the Imperial Army camp, and catching sight of Kahlan.

I think that's it, at least.

 

[jenna]

You know he's going to write a How to Write book after this.

You just know it.

As arrogant as he is.

How can he help it?

Oh my god, LOL! I will go into some sort of laughing coma if he does that!

 

[C Of K]

Because with all the weird things I have been reading in here, somewhere in the back of mi mind there is this little voice that is nagging me to get the last book

I'll give some advice about getting the last book. The first chapter is very violent. It's also superbly written. Every chapter after that, that I read which was about 20 or so, went from bad to worse, to horrendous and below.

Some people say that Goodkind started repeating himself after the fourth book, or the sixth. I say he's been repeating himself since the second.

WFR: Shota gives Richard ambiguous information that works for and against him. Denna puts Richard in a collar, and takes him away. Dragon Scarlet, does more to help save the day than Chase, Zedd, or Kahlan.

SOT: Shota gives Richard ambiguous information that works for and against him. Verna puts Richard in a collar and takes him away. Dragon Scarlet, does more to help save the day than Chase, Zedd, or Kahlan.

 

[the_faery_queen]

as most people know, it was the rape that put me off the series. violence i can handle, if it has a purpose. rape i can handle slightly less well, again, if it has a purpose. but this book was full of both with no use for any! and so detailed, dear god, it makes you wonder what the man is on! whether he is getting off on what he's writing, cos i can't see any other reason for all the detail and repetetiveness of the rape/violence.

i didn't notice much repetitive ness in teh four books i read. other than the rape and the, oh no kahlan and richard are seperated, boo hoo, lets find each other again cos we're in such love. that and the, kahlan is great, which seemed to eb a strong theme running through it, with everyone loving her, even though i couldn't stand her.

but as i have said before, if goodkind can get in print, with this lot of crap, then ANYONE can do it, and be as successful. it has to be posible. it just has to!
either that or i think i will give up writing books forever, cos if the standard we have to aim for, or be like, is this, then it's not worth it.

 

[Werthead]

"...monster bonking...". Probably the funniest thing I have read on this otherwise dull thread for a dull author. After book 1, I got some 100 pages into book 2 and coundn't take it anymore. And I'm not one to leave a book after investing time in it. But at least it's pages made good campfire starter.

And, please do not ever compare the writings of a genius such as GRRM to a jerk such as Goodkind.

This thread sadly lacks the inherent lunacy of other GK threads elsewhere on the Internet, such as the one that gave us this peerless post:

"It wasn’t called “the Sword of Truth” lightly." - Terry Goodkind

"Really? Did he struggle for days/weeks/months to come up with this profound, and totally non-generic, title?" - Myshkin

"Of course he did. At first it was called the Scimitar of Exactitude, but he felt that it lacked the requisite punch, not to mention the overtones of weirdo cultural diversity. After that, it went through several permutations: the Rapier of Veracity, the Cutlass of Candour, it even spent a brief period as the Katana of Being Pretty Honest in Most Situations, before someone pointed out that he was again edging away from his Anglo-Saxon heritage and all of the nobleness that it embodies. So he was down to two choices, the Poniard of Factual Accuracy, or the Unidentified Edged Weapon of Avoiding Lies. It wasn't until one of his friends invited him to a local back alley freak show that he finally settled on a title, and it was under the name "A Midget has Sex with a Half Octopus Lady" that it finally hit the publishers desk. The final title came out of one of those typographical mishaps which are so common in this era of "movable type", when a technician accidentally reached for the wrong tray while setting the type. The fact that he managed to do this eighteen times in a row and that this, in itself, marked a sharp decrease from the forty one letters the original title should have had only goes to prove that, statistically, if something can happen once, it can happen eighteen time and stop there even if it should continue a little longer.

So, as you can see, it was a hard fought for and statistically improbable title. The odds against the book even having a title this apt were quite staggering." - Will

 

[jenna]

ROFL @ the Katana of Being Pretty Honest in Most Situations!

 

[Werthead]

Oh yeah, just in case you ever wanted to, you can now create your own Sword of Truth novel!

 

[CBellenis]

My hope got the better of me and I'v just read Phantom. Astonishingly I liked it!! It stuck firmly to the formula, but with much less nastiness than of late. On to the last one then

 

[Call me Gytha]

I started Confessor, several weeks back to my shame it's just not gripping me but thankfully it's the last of the series and hopefully Mr Goodkind comes up with something not so contrived next time. This series has descended into sufferance in the same way the Wheel of Time series did. Note to authors, if a series runs over 6 books long you'll most likely lose it

 

[Rane Longfox]

"Next time"??

Dear lord please no!!

 

[Clansman]

Yes, he's made a gagillion dollars from his drivel. If he gets his TV series, he'll be set. Hopefully he retires to a compound in Montana or something.

 

[the_faery_queen]

how about he retires to mars? far far away

 

[Clansman]

Venus is hotter, and has the added bonus of swirling clouds of ammonia which will bring threads like this, because of the lack of anything to talk about, to a very timely end.

I actually thought that he would fit in with the compound-type people. Or not. Maybe his own compound. On Venus.

 

[Call me Gytha]

I'm sure he'll be happy there as long as there are lots of leather clad ladies with long braided hair Clansman I have often pitied Mrs Goodkind... I hope she looks "noble" and "defiant" whilst wearing her leather outfit (colour varies depending on how Mr G has been behaving)