Jon, The Wall and the realm

[TomServo]

Forgive me if this is not a ew idea, I haven't read all of the threads , but there seems to be a lot of speculation about whether Jon and Dany will get together. Especially about how this can be justified through his vows to the Nights Watch. So here are my two cents on the issue. Maybe its just wishful thinking on my part but i think that they will get together and that the vows wont be an issue. This is because I have, I guess, always taken it for granted that the wall was gonna come down. This is because, unless I've misread, the wall is not just a physical barrier to the Others, but a magical one as well. And with the way the squablling lords act, even if the Others are confirmed, they will say that the wall will defend them. So the Wall is going down, and I think this will free Jon of the vows. Again, maybe just wishful thinking but tell me what you guys think.

 

[TK-421]

Thanks TomServo for starting a thread on this as there was certainly some discussion to the suggestion Jon and Dany will get it on. Just add Tyrion and they make a big happy family.

The issue of the Wall coming down is possible and the magic part is interesting but may be not really GRRM's style. Either the Wall will no longer be needed (or come down) due to:
a) the Others are defeated
OR
b) the Others get through the Wall and reak havoc on Westeros

As to Jon's vows, I to do not think these will be such an obstacle. Vows like rules and New Year's resolutions are made to be broken. I've speculated already Jon will be offered the Iron Throne and that the ultimate irony would be for a Targaryen ******* to rule the 7 kingdoms.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I don't see the whole wall coming down (have you seen how big the damn thing is??) but the Night Watch will probably be forced back into the seven kingdoms and Jon may go to Kings Landing personally to plead his case for more men - which would make sense to me. The court ignored Yoren (commoner), Ser Thorne (anointed knight) so the next step up is someone like Lord Mallister or him!

Quite want Dany will be like then (I can see her becoming a real hard-nosed ***** after she gets that naivety knocked out of her by the Meeren amongst others) I shudder to think.

All in all though, I can't wait for the next book! (even though I waited 5 years for the last one!).

 

[TomServo]

I don't know, I always got the impression that the wall was more than a physical barrier. For example the Horn of Winter I believe it was called was supposed to bring it down. But maybe it doesn't bring it down in a physical sense but instead effects it in such a way as to allow the Others to pass its borders. Again, just musings I've been rolling around in my head.

 

[TomServo]

Heres another related musing: Do you think the Dragon horn has anything relation to the Horn of Winter? It seems that a Horn associated with fire could have some power over a wall of ice.

 

[Raven]

Basic rule of storytelling: you don't write a story with a huge wall crucial to the plot, include a magic horn that can knock it down, then end the story with the horn unblown and the wall still standing.

So, yes the Wall will likely come down, in some way or form. IMO anyway.

BUT...

The oaths of the Night's Watch don't say a single word about the Wall. The Wall coming down is not going to invalidate or neutralise the oath Jon swore.

Besides, we were promised a 'bittersweet' ending... I have a hunch that means the path of True Love is not going to run smooth.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

The wall has to fall (either literally or figuratively), purely because it would make for a very dull series otherwise. 4 books in and so much has been made of the others being this incredibly terrible threat from the distant past that spread fear and famine and frost across the entire land bla bla bla. Coupled with the fact that no one but the paltry band of criminals and displaced lordlings of the night's watch actually believes they still exist, and there's just no possible way that the wall won't be breached, and the disbelievers of the south given a very rude and probably/hopefully fatal awakening, death, rebirth as a zombie.


Oh, and I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. If the wall doesn't fall in at least the early part of the penultimate book I will be very very cross with Mr martin. I want a propper war with the other's, with as much love, time and detail given to it as the war for the iron Throne. I'm sick and tired of fantasy books which have some massively powerful evil force awakening in the land, 10 books of a desperate band of mismatched hero's struggling desperately to avert said awakening, and then a final novel which is markedly shorter then any of the previous efforts in which there's yet more bollocking around before the last 100 pages when said evil git finally appears as something more then a disembodied voice that does bugger all but piss off the protagonist’s while they sleep by murmuring such terrifying words as "You can't defeat me! mwhahahahaah!" etc. in time to fight some cataclysmic final battle in which he gets stabbed in the little toe by a knitting needle of ULTIMATE POWER! by a drunken monkey (that one of the character's was naturally mysteriously left by his distant and reclusive uncle, and who had always seemed to be more then a simple animal) and keels over dead.

 

[Raven]

Does that happen often in books you read, DE? Or only in your dreams? And if so what have you been eating before bed?

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Does that happen often in books you read, DE? Or only in your dreams? And if so what have you been eating before bed?

Well, if im honest it's a synopsis of a novel i'm writing, i was testing the waters to see what kind of response it'd get.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

stabbed in the little toe by a knitting needle of ULTIMATE POWER!

Hahahahahaha! Too funny.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

knitting needle?!? you couldn't possibly defeat a cataclysmic evil entity with a knitting needle! you would need a CROCHET needle of ultimate power!

 

[TK-421]

knitting needle?!? you couldn't possibly defeat a cataclysmic evil entity with a knitting needle! you would need a CROCHET needle of ultimate power!

Holy %&*!. Very funny! Must be lonely in Mississippi crocheting all those doilies of your favourite ASoFaI houses.

Anyways, I agree, the Wall has to come down at some point. Maybe when the dragons come to kick some cold undead Others ragged butt, there will be no need for the Nightswatch and Jon can claim the throne...With Dolorous Edd as his manservant and some Wildling girls for entertainment (he seems to favour them).

 

[Gazz]

I don't see Jon getting together with Dany. It's too hopeless-romantic for George R.R. Martins liking.

Dany to get together with the new improved thin-badass Sam the Slayer anyone, after Sam defeats Victarion in single combat?

 

[Boaz]

Dany and Sam... now that's something completely new to me.

 

[TK-421]

I don't see Jon getting together with Dany. It's too hopeless-romantic for George R.R. Martins liking.

Dany to get together with the new improved thin-badass Sam the Slayer anyone, after Sam defeats Victarion in single combat?

Nice try Gazz, but I don't think so. I love Sam but Dany needs power and thus she will marry power if she is to marry at all. Marrying another Targaryen or a Dornish Prince is probably better than Sam.

Now, that is unless Sam is really heir to Highgarden (I don't he will be), something happens to his dear old papa and he forgets his vows (again...what is it with these crows forgetting vows...). Of course the Tyrells could look upon him favourably, especially if his path crosses the Queen of Thorns (they were the last house to support the Targaryens after all).

 

[Tom O'Sevens]

If Sam's going to be inheriting anything it'll be Hornhill, once his father been taught a few lessons about being content with what his children are.

Lesson 1 - Someone from King's Landing on seeing Dickon will make the following observation. 'My, Randyll, your Dickon's a fine strapping lad, tall, dark, handsome and a manly firey temper. If I didn't know you better Lord Tarly, I'd say Dickon was King Robert on the Trident reborn...'

Lesson 2 - After they've both been relieved of their vows, Sam is introduced by Jon to a young lady who compliments him perfectly. They fall for each other and marry, on hearing about Randyll's treatment of her husband, the new Lady Tarly (who has alway had a strong sense of social justice) insists Sam face his father (with her support of course) and claim what is rightfully his. When Randyll is still an arsehole, Arya beats him into a cowering heap. Lord Randyll Tarly is so ashamed about being beaten up by a woman that he goes and joins the silent brothers...

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Well it's certainly an interesting theory, Tom.
Welcome to the forums!

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Does anyone actually think Tarly did the right thing by sending Sam to the wall? Its a harsh world and he felt he had a duty to the Tarlys to come not to let his own offspring destroy the family holdings. Dont get me wrong, he lacked a certain delicacy in the whole process but in the end it was probably the best thing for Sam.....

Just my opinion....

 

[TomServo]

Oh I totally agree that it was the best thing for Sam. He has a lot of potential that can be nurtured on the wall. However I doubt he was sent there to nurture his potential, more to be put out of the way.

 

[TK-421]

Sam was sent to the Wall to die. But he'll show them that a pudgy, craven maester will have alot of influence, more than his father, on the shaping of Westeros. Especially if he aligns with Dany.

Father-son relations do figure quite prominently in this series don't you think?