Martin and Jordan?

[nisaea]

Hello,

First post here with a very bold question. I know most of you seem like die-hard Martin fans, but I'll fire the question anyway. Bear with me, I was a huge fan myself of the 3 frist books.

Is George R.R. Martin's fourth Song of Fire and Ice book just like Rodert Jordan's fifth Wheel of Time book? I mean: are they both just long winded, nothing-really-happens, update-on-all-the-characters, I-like-to-write-big-books novels?

Seems harsh, and it is. But I was a huge fan of Jordan until the fifth book, and a big fan of Martin until this fourth.

When Martin said that his Song of Fire and Ice was going to be 6 books instead of 3, I began worrying. And sure enough, the fourth is just like Jordan's fifth: hundreds of pages of nothing happening. I'm half-way through the book, and this is what I've seen.

Brienne. What has she gained since the beginning of the book? Nothing. She's not even on Sansa's track, has gained insignificant friends, killed insignificant ennemies. I loved Brienne's character before this fourth book, but now her chapters are just a bore.

Cersei. Has she done anything else but be bored with various dignitaries, angry at Jaime, and trying to get more power under the table? What has she done, except burn the Hand's tower needlessly?

Jaime. Broods, frustrated with his sister. Anything else?

Samwell. Nervous with girls, reads books that have no effect on the story, is afraid and seasick. What's new?

Sansa. Trapped with Little finger, unable to do anything on her own, mainly because she doesn't have any idea of *what* she wants to do. That's not a problem in itself, but you don't spend hundreds of pages on that!

The Ironmen. Presenting so many characters only to make a king of the *only* one we didn't already know.

Right now I'm not sure if I'm going to finish the book, or simply look for a Tyrion chapter in the second half of the book. Tyrion is the only really interesting character left in the series (all the other ones are either dead or missing), and I'm still looking for him halfway through the fourth book.


Anyway, can anyone here offer me hope about the rest of the book? And please don't waste your time flaming... I just won't read those posts.

Nisaea

 

[Adasunshine]

**************************************SPOILER ALERT********************************************

We don't do flames on this site Nisaea, just not the done thing.

I do, however, completely disagree with your post. I really enjoyed the fourth book and feel as though it's just setting things up for the next one, ok so not a lot of REAL important things happen in it but it is only half of the story from half of the characters. This book is based in Kings Landing, the next one (A Dance With Dragons) will be based pretty much everywhere else but focusing, I presume on Dany & the Wall.

******************************* DOUBLE SPOILER ALERT IF NOT YET READ AFFC*************************************

As for Cersei and Jaime, quite a lot happened with those two in A Feast for Crows, it gave you an insight into how they work, how Jaime is trying to make himself a better person, Cersei is on the verge of dying, we got to see more of the politics of Kings Landing, it's introduced the Sparrows to Westeros. The chapters about Arya are quite telling and intriguing. The Sansa chapters are pretty much just information but I assume the information will be needed, Littlefinger's trying to teach her the way of The Game and make her a proficient player (amongst other things that are on his agenda).

Brienne is about to hung for god's sake, it was about her journey and her near misses, is that not enough?

This is the fourth book in a series of what looks to amount to 7 books in total, so as a middle stepping stone, I wouldn't imagine anything too significant would happen, he's got to keep us reading, he has a story to tell and if you want my opinion, he's doing a damn good job of it, if he wasn't then this particular writers forum probably wouldn't exist.

BTW, I'd stop looking for Tyrion, he's not in the fourth book.

xx

[EDIT]: About Jordan, I personally, couldn't read on after getting a quarter of the way through Book 6 but others are still enjoying the story after Book 11, it's all about personal taste.

 

[nisaea]

I really enjoyed the fourth book and feel as though it's just setting things up for the next one, ok so not a lot of REAL important things happen in it but it is only half of the story from half of the characters.[...]
This is the fourth book in a series of what looks to amount to 7 books in total, so as a middle stepping stone, I wouldn't imagine anything too significant would happen, he's got to keep us reading, he has a story to tell and if you want my opinion, he's doing a damn good job of it, if he wasn't then this particular writers forum probably wouldn't exist.

Thanks for your reply.

As for those 2 comments of yours, I ask: why write a 700 page book where you "wouldn't imagine anything too significant would happen"??? I just can't understand it.

I don't know if you're a fan of the television series "24", but I'm sure you're aware of the concept. Picture this: having 1 book (out of 7) where nothing much happens would be like having 3 consecutive episodes of 24 where nothing happens. We could learn about Jack's grandparents, about Audrey's father insignificant heart condition, about Bucanen's (sp?) first adolescent love... I mean: why put in insignificant stuff in a tv series, a novel, a movie...

I don't mind the few anecdotes that add color, but a whole book about nothing much?

Nisaea

P.S. About Tyrion's absence from book four: that pretty much puts the last nail on the coffin for me. Thx for the tip.

 

[Adasunshine]

I think you missed my point, everything that happens in Book 4 is setting stuff up for future books.

I've found as I've read the series that something that seemed rather insignificant turned out to be of major importance and I'm quite sure that AFFC is full of these supposedly insignificant details.

We learn a lot about certain characters, we see what makes them tick, it gives us insight into their actions which, I, personally like to see in a book so although there may not be much action as such, it's still stuff you need to know and want to know about.

The prologue baffled me completley until later on down the line I realised just who must have assumed Pate's identity but at the time of reading I was like ooookaaaaaaaay, what's this about then.

Also with AFFC, we get to look at Dorne and the Ironborn, two races of people which before now, we didn't really know a lot about yet they obviously have a part to play, Dorne especially so.

I just don't think you've given AFFC much of a chance and if you skip straight to ADWD then you might find you don't know much of what's going on or why certain things are happening. I, personally see AFFC as quite pivotal in the series, action or no action, Tyrion or no Tyrion (although I do look forward to seeing him in ADWD).

xx

 

[TK-421]

Nisaea: Just wait until you've read the whole book before passing judgement. True it does not have the same pace as ASoS or even ACoK and moves a little slower but it does advance the characters somewhat and did you really expect him to keep up the same pace, anyways. Plus, the fact the character's POVs were broken up between 2 books, AFFC and ADOD, has made us a salivating for more. I'm sure you can tell by the lively discussions AFFC has brought to this forum and there is no shortage of unaswered questions and theories. Just hang in there. GRRM has not let us down yet.

 

[Adasunshine]

Thankyou TK-421 for condensing everything I said into so few lines, I wish I owned that ability! Maybe, then I wouldn't have to waffle on to get to my point.

This is in no way meant to be sarcastic so please don't take it that way!

xx

 

[nisaea]

Hello,

Well okay, I'll give this book a second chance. But not right now: I'm getting my hands on Steven Erikson's 6th book this afternoon and plan on eating it raw!

Thx for the quick replies,

Nisaea

 

[Dolorous Edd]

I have to say i loved jordan up until the end of book seven, with 6 probably being the best, but 4 my personal favourite. After that it does go down hill rapidly, with, as you say, currently4 books with FA happening in them. I don't think AFFC compares with these tho, as whilst it's probably my least favourite of the series so far i think that's mainly down to the fact that all of my favourite character's were the wrong side of the split. I think there's enough character & plot development (And a couple of very nice and unexpected twists) for it to be considered a genuine and neccesary part of the series.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Hello,

Well okay, I'll give this book a second chance. But not right now: I'm getting my hands on Steven Erikson's 6th book this afternoon and plan on eating it raw!

Thx for the quick replies,

Nisaea

See, people have made the same critiscm of the bonehunters, which again i don't hold with. But i'll leave you to make your own mind up on that. Oh, and enjoy the finale, it's a corker

 

[genisis2]

First a warm welcome to a fellow Canuck and now the flaming Just kidding. TK and ADA are quite correct in what they are saying. Change your perpective a bit and Look at the book as an introduction to future events also on another thread here someone suggested reading each POV seperately. This may or may not work for you.
I unlike you was only slightly dissappionted so I understand your frustration I went back an reread the entire book and really was entertained. Do I have rose colored glasses when it comes to Martin? Possibly and yet compared to many authors in this genre I doubt youll find many who can surpass or be his equal. BTW Cersei's POV was quite enjoyable. Happy posting and enjoy your stay!

 

[nisaea]

See, people have made the same critiscm of the bonehunters, which again i don't hold with. But i'll leave you to make your own mind up on that. Oh, and enjoy the finale, it's a corker

Scary! Was hoping for a revival, as Erikson's fifth book was very strange.

All of Erikson's books are very good imo, but the first was the best.


Here's to hoping we'll see more bridgeburners before the series is up!

Nisaea

 

[Humanraindelay]

Now see, I am having a hard time plugging through Gardens of the Moon. I feel that I'm starting in the middle of a story. Ericson just seems to dump a bunch of info out and leaves it to you to decide what it is and how it works and what side it is on. I'm still not really sure what a T'lan Imass is or how mages use warrens .

 

[Brian G Turner]

If it's any consolation, a think a lot of people had problem's with GRRM's fourth book - especially at first.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I have to say i loved jordan up until the end of book seven, with 6 probably being the best...

I have to say I found Jordan to be fine until:

Nynaeve tugged her braid the hundredth time.
Egwene and Elaine? drank tea/ changed their clothes the billionth time.
An entire book was written about people looking up and staring off into the distance.

Utter crap.

 

[genisis2]

I have to say I found Jordan to be fine until:

Nynaeve tugged her braid the hundredth time.
Egwene and Elaine? drank tea/ changed their clothes the billionth time.
An entire book was written about people looking up and staring off into the distance.

Utter crap.

soooooooo true and thats all I can bloody remember from the books.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Hello nisaea & welcome to the forums.

I'm pretty sure you're not alone in your gripes with the fourth book. I think of lot of people were disappointed when GRRM announced he would be splitting up book 4 and leaving Jon, Tyrion, Dany and Davos out of it completely.

I also agree that on first glance nothing seems to happen directly to the main characters but on reflection that could not be further from the truth.

As already quoted in spoilers above several 'important' characters are dying or near death, the rise of the sparrows and the militant High Septon is starting to show signs of the possibility of a peasant/civil revolt from the people in Kings Landing. The Iron Islanders have "joined the war" as a third side and everything from Casterly Rock along the coast is in flames. We finally see Dorne's motivations and machinations and, more importantly the 'movers & shakers' and we learn about Arya's training and 'loss of self' as well as Sansa's morph into Alayne and the Eyrie's political in-fighting.

You may argue that this is a side-track from the main story of Dany's return to Westeros or the war of the Others, but I disagree. It builds up your knowledge/empathy for these characters so when they start getting killed, it genuinely affects you, rather than the "Ensign Ricky is dead!" syndrome

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Scary! Was hoping for a revival, as Erikson's fifth book was very strange.

All of Erikson's books are very good imo, but the first was the best.


Here's to hoping we'll see more bridgeburners before the series is up!

Nisaea

Again, Midnight tides was my least favourite of the malazaan books, despite my grudgingly having to admit that it's probably one of the best written. And again i pin it down to the simple fact that, even more so than AFFC, it was too disconnected from what had gone before (read as: Completely). NONE of the characters I loved were in it, NONE of the plotline's I wanted resolved were, but having said that some of the new character's were inspired (I just loved the relationship between tehol and bug, it was brilliantly funny) and taken on it's own merit's the story told was exciting and engaging.

TBH I think the same answer applies to both these books: Wait until the series is finished before you judge the individual books, until you can see how they fit into the whole. The next malazaan book returns to lethar, and the character's from MT (as well as throwing a couple of people from the earlier books into the mix) so I’m positive that MT will rise in my estimations once Reaper's Gale comes out and links the book's together and it feels more like a genuine part of the series. I think the same can be said for AFFC - wait until you've read ADWD (which is essential AFFC part 2 after all).

Now see, I am having a hard time plugging through Gardens of the Moon. I feel that I'm starting in the middle of a story. Ericson just seems to dump a bunch of info out and leaves it to you to decide what it is and how it works and what side it is on. I'm still not really sure what a T'lan Imass is or how mages use warrens .

It is a bit daunting at first, i grant you. But persevere as it really is a cracking series. The world Eriskon creates is incredible, full of so many distinct species and cultures that it's mind boggling. He also has an eye for the dramatic that far surpasses anything else I’ve read in fantasy. (read the last 100 or so pages of Garden's and you'll know what I mean. read Chain of Dog's and you'll know what I mean. read Memories of Ice and you'll know what I mean..... (seeing a pattern emerge yet? ))

I have to say I found Jordan to be fine until:

Nynaeve tugged her braid the hundredth time.
Egwene and Elaine? drank tea/ changed their clothes the billionth time.
An entire book was written about people looking up and staring off into the distance.

Utter crap.

Aye, those bitchy women really pissed me off. I just wanted to slap the lot of them. And i mean EVERY woman in the series. Every time Elayne, or Egwene, Or Nynaeve berated Rand for his arrogance in thinking he knew best and then blithely deciding that THEY knew what to do. I just wanted to rip them out of the book and shout "For F*cks sake! The guys the Dragon reborn! The only man in the world with experience at fighting the dark one, the only man still alive who actually knows Who and What the F*ck the dark one IS. His whole PURPOSE is to fight the damned creature, so just sit down, shut up and let him do his job."

It really infuriated me that they kept blaming the men for the breaking of the world, completely ignoring the fact that they SAVED the world. yes it's broken, and million's died. But the fact that they're still there to bitch about it is proof that it WORKED. The male Aes Sedai bough the human race a couple of thousand year's in which to slag them off and spit on their grave's. Marvellous. I'm not even going to start on the fact that had the women HELPED the men, rather then stick their head's in the sand, the men would probably have been protected from the taint, and the world wouldn't be broken, and none of this would have happened.

To be honest I’d kind of like it if they do actually lose the last battle, purely because the Aes Sedai refuse to listen to Rand and bugger things up.

LOL, haven't read the books in a while (bar KOD when it was released) - you've stirred up emotions left best buried AU.

I really can't imagine Jordan like's women very much tbh. For centuries Women have been portrayed as vapid, senseless, unintelligent creatures, who are best left at home whilst the men do the hard work of running things. Then here's this world he's created that's dominated by women, and what are they like? Yup: Vapid, senseless and unintelligent.

 

[nisaea]

Hello,

Winter's Sorrow: perhaps I'm just frustrated about AFFC because nearly all my favortie characters have been "reserved" for the 5th book. But I can't shake the impression that the 4th book contains a *lot* of filler that he had to put in now that his huge book was going to be split in two. Maybe that'll make for a very good 5th book, like eating all your turnips before getting to the delicious meat-pie your grandmother made for Christmas!

Dolorous Edd: Midnight Tides was inded a very strange book. And if Tehol and Bug hadn't been in there, it would have been a very long read indeed. Their dialogs are some of the highest comedy points in the entire series, heck, in all of fantasy literature.

As for Gardens of the Moon starting in mid-story, I actually enjoyed that quite a bit. Further, as an aspiring author I sometimes do that in my own short stories and even my (stupidly big, sigh) novel to be. I guess I'm just tired of the typical storyline development: neutral situation, upsetting event, action, conclusion.

I smiled when reading your comments about Jordan, AryaUnderFoot, but the sad part is that I'm beginning to feel the same way about some characters in AFFC. (Halfway through the book) Brienne is nothing but fruitless quest and dark thoughts about being a woman-knight, Cersei is nothing but a single emotion and Jaime is the jaded brooder. Imo it's getting long... And since we don't need to fight the "Ensign Ricky is dead" with those characters, I don't tknow why GRRM tries to hammer those character concepts into us... We know already!

Again, thanks for the lively discussion guys!

Nisaea

P.S. I've bee using that avatar online for years and it's the first time I've found it in the avatar bank of a message board. Strange feeling!

 

[hedgeknight]

I've said in other places that I quit Jordan after he jerked readers around in Book 7 - 500 pages of drivel and then a lack luster ending. Hell, it's been so long I don't even remember what 95% of the book was about!

As for AFFC (sigh) - just very disappointing. I'm with you Nisaea - not really interested in going beyond what I've read. Might just relive the first three over and over and not waste another week of my life when ADwD comes out.

-g-

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I'm pretty sure you'll change your mind when everyone starts raving about it and the ADwD spoiler & discussion thread starts filling up