"Personal" question(s) to John Jarrold

[John Jarrold]

Tant pis! Still, at least I won't have to worry about facing you after you've kicked my submission to the curb.

Obviously I think it's pretty damned good, but I'm trying desperately hard to rein in my nervous enthusiasm as I approach the final straight. “Pride goeth before destruction, and a high mind before the fall.”

I might try to make Eastercon next year, though. I've been promising myself for twenty years that one day I'll buy Dave Langford a drink for all those fantastic book reviews in "White Dwarf".

But I'm looking forward to World Fantasycon in Ohio!

 

[Erin99]

Ah, thank you, John!

And yes, I've learned to be brutal. I'll see if I can be tougher still. Before I hired you I thought I'd edited - then you showed me I had so much waffle in there. Now as I've gone over the work to make it better, I'm shocked at how many repeats I had and lines that can be phrased more eloquently.

It's a tough art, but I'm learning!

 

[John Jarrold]

Yep, it's about learning, writing, reading, re-writing...

 

[anthorn]

would a 101'838 worded novel have no trouble being published? Is this too short for a fantasy even a debut one

Also. DO you prefer your manuscripts Italics or underlined, if you get what I mean

 

[Paradox 99]

If I'm honest I have never been asked before - not surprisingly, because it's much more important that you get quotes from authors the general public know, rather than an agent within the hothouse of SFF publishing, who no one else has ever heard of!


But thanks for the thought, I'm very flattered!!!

Never been asked before? Actually I am rather surprised, though I see your point about famous authors being a greater eye-catcher. That said, there are often little quotes used from zines and the like, and your credentials are impressive enough to raise an eyebrow or two - former director of Orbit books? C'mon - that's gold! (and you're an angent for the book's genre too).

Anyway, I'd love to add you to the list. You'll get a free copy, and if, at the very worst you think it's a stinker, you'll have a nice doorstop.

The copies aren't being sent out until late 2011 though, so we've still got a bit of waiting to do.

 

[Anne Lyle]

But I'm looking forward to World Fantasycon in Ohio!

So was I

Still, there's always 2011...

 

[Anne Lyle]

And yes, I've learned to be brutal. I'll see if I can be tougher still. Before I hired you I thought I'd edited - then you showed me I had so much waffle in there. Now as I've gone over the work to make it better, I'm shocked at how many repeats I had and lines that can be phrased more eloquently.

It's a tough art, but I'm learning!

I've been doing Holly Lisle's online novel revision course and found it invaluable. Admittedly I go the opposite way - my early drafts are very spartan, and I have to flesh out the story and the prose later - but the course covers all levels of revising, from fixing major plot flaws and broken characters to advice on how to line-edit without killing your voice. The five-month course costs about $250 (in monthly installments of $49.95), and it's worth every cent.

I just got a critique back (from a published writer friend) on the rough cut of the manuscript, and the new material I've written since starting the course has almost no red pen on it - so I must have learnt something

 

[John Jarrold]

would a 101'838 worded novel have no trouble being published? Is this too short for a fantasy even a debut one

Also. DO you prefer your manuscripts Italics or underlined, if you get what I mean

There is no difference in length for a debut novelist. I've heard this before -Oh, I should write a shorter book because I'm a new novelist. No. The length that sells is the length that sells and fantasy tends to be long. Particularly any form of epic fantasy, which has to be...epic. Your length is short, have a look in bookstores - which recently-successful authors would you compare yourself with? Are they writing big, chunky books?

I don't care whether emphasis is shown by italicising or underlining. It's the words that matter.

 

[John Jarrold]

Never been asked before? Actually I am rather surprised, though I see your point about famous authors being a greater eye-catcher. That said, there are often little quotes used from zines and the like, and your credentials are impressive enough to raise an eyebrow or two - former director of Orbit books? C'mon - that's gold! (and you're an angent for the book's genre too).

Anyway, I'd love to add you to the list. You'll get a free copy, and if, at the very worst you think it's a stinker, you'll have a nice doorstop.

The copies aren't being sent out until late 2011 though, so we've still got a bit of waiting to do.

I'd really discuss this with your publishers, to see if they think it's worthwhile - don't under any circumstances waste a precious ARC! Cheers!

 

[anthorn]

Thanks John. It's actually quite hard comparing my work to others, I know that tends to help when a publisher sells a book, we've all seen those blurbs- If you like GRRM you'll love BOB etc. So I'm still not sure. If push came to shove I would say, a cross between Erikson and Ken scholes..... (see it's really best when someone else does this)

I could beef it up, but at the moment, in that length I've told the story I wanted to tell

 

[John Jarrold]

An editor must be able to mention two or three recently-successful authors in the same genre when they present a book at an editorial meeting. If what you are writing is Steve Erikson style - well, you can see the length of his books and of books by other recent big fantasy authors like Brent Weeks. Peter V Brett, Joe Abercrombie. You're just over halfway there, at your length...in general, when it comes to fantasy big books sell and small books don't.

But if you're writing a 'smaller' story, with one POV character, then you can't compare yourself to any of the above authors. Doesn't fit, obviously. You might try looking at authors like Kristin Cashore and Maria V Snyder, to see if they are more your area. However, even there I'd guess you're looking at around 120k.

 

[anthorn]

Thanks again John.

 

[HareBrain]

Hi John, good to see you active on here again.

I have a question about comparisons with other recently successful authors. Since this really seems to come into play when the editor is trying to sell the book to his marketing department, who is best placed to decide which other authors a writer can be compared to: the writer, the agent, or the editor himself? You'd expect the second two to have a more professional overview of the market (though clearly the writer should keep himself informed too).

How many of the submissions you recieve contain such comparisons, and how much attention do you pay them when thinking about the commercial pospects for the book? Or is this generally something you discuss with the author after deciding the story has potential?

 

[John Jarrold]

Authors should be au fait with the market - it's pointless writing cyberpunk because you love NEUROMANCER, in 2010. Most of the authors I've worked with professionally over the last 20-odd years have read in the genre since they were teenagers and can discuss its history and where it stands today at length. It's a commercial market and a commercial business.

I always suggest it's worthwhile an author mentioning a couple of comparisons when they submit, so the agent or editor knows they have an idea of the genre in 2010, and over half of my submissions do that. Though some don't say a damn word about the book, which I find odd.

When I read, if it is one of the very few submissions I believe is worth thinking about seriously, I will take on board what the author has said about comparisons and think of others myself. then I'll discuss all that with them, in the unlikely situation that I take them on (!), and mention comparisons when I submit to editors. Who will need to do that to their senior colleagues in the editorial, sales and marketing departments should they take the book forward...

 

[Daniel Ionson]

But I'm looking forward to World Fantasycon in Ohio!

John, you'll be attending this: World Fantasy Convention 36 - WFC 2010 ?

It's just one state over. Perhaps I should go.

 

[John Jarrold]

Yep, I'll be there! Waiting to hear if they want me on panel/panels!

 

[Paradox 99]

I'd really discuss this with your publishers, to see if they think it's worthwhile - don't under any circumstances waste a precious ARC! Cheers!

Good idea. I'll see what they say.

Interesting that the subject should be mentioned about comparisons.
I've had to do that in my pre-publication title info sheet and it caught me off guard. The advice I've been given in the past (which now seems to be a bit misguided) is that you shouldn't compare your novel to another one because it should be able to stand up on its own. Were they perhaps talking about comparing to obvious stereotypes like Harry Potter or Twilight?

I can see now the reason for comparisons: it helps the marketers gear up in the right direction I suppose. In my case they asked for comparisons within the last 5 years, and I found that almost impossible. It's not that I don't read much, I just read widely, so my comparison pool gets a bit diluted. And when writing, you tend to strive to write something original. And then you're asked to compare! I could only think of books from about 10 years ago or a couple of recent(ish) movies.

 

[BaileyD]

'Though some don't say a damn word about the book, which I find odd.'

I know an odd ejiot who has done this...they won't be doing it again.

 

[Anne Lyle]

Authors should be au fait with the market - it's pointless writing cyberpunk because you love NEUROMANCER, in 2010. Most of the authors I've worked with professionally over the last 20-odd years have read in the genre since they were teenagers and can discuss its history and where it stands today at length. It's a commercial market and a commercial business.

I'm guessing "within the last 5 years" is a decent ballpark for comparisons?

Also, it's one thing to know the market, and quite another to have an objective opinion of your own work - I feel there's a gap between "This book will appeal to readers of..." and "I write like...".

For example, I can name a bunch of recent, well-received novels in a similar spy/thriller/intrigue vein, but I don't think I write much like any of their authors - and yet my book may still appeal to this audience. On the other hand there's one very successful and highly regarded author whom I suspect has been a big (if unconscious) influence as regards style, but any comparison would be highly misleading because of content/subgenre differences.

I've tried asking beta-readers, but they've not been very helpful - there's nothing more frustrating than being told "I've never read anything like this before!" (even when it's intended as glowing praise). I'm putting it down to their own limited reading rather my miraculous reinvention of the historical fantasy genre, but who knows? Oh well, if my submission doesn't float your boat, at least you might be able to give me some pointers

 

[Paradox 99]

Also, it's one thing to know the market, and quite another to have an objective opinion of your own work - I feel there's a gap between "This book will appeal to readers of..." and "I write like...".

Excellent point.