"Personal" question(s) to John Jarrold

Hi - I've only recently found this thread, and have spent the past few days reading through it and gaining tons of valuable insights that I will undoubtedly put to work in the task of attempting to complete my lovely novel.
So thanks to everyone - John in particular, but also everyone else who has been giving the benefit of their experience and experiences to those of us who are only novices in the game.

And so to my novice question / request for opinions:
I'm in the midst (roughly the middle, in fact) of my first Fantasy novel/tale, and I've written somewhere in the region of 130,000 words, so far.
I'm continuing to plough ahead with the book, as obviously finishing the story is the most important part for a writer, but I'm also wondering about the process for submission to an agent etc.
The story as it stands at the moment will have three quite distinct sections, which would theoretically allow it to be a trilogy. However, the first section is currently too short (approx. 75,000 words according to MSWord word-count, or 83,000 according to a "publisher's word-count which I read about on the internet) and it's likely that, as things stand, the other sections will also be too short for full novels.
- Is it worthwhile to revisit the first section of the story and lengthen it (something I could quite easily do, since there are many events that are hinted at within the story that could be expanded and explained more completely) to novel length, and pitch it as the first part of a trilogy? At the risk of possibly weakening the pacing, of course.
- Is it better to complete the whole thing and submit it as a story of 250,000 words or so? Obviously at the risk of writing for another 6 months before finding out from someone in the business that it is not only unmarketable but unreadable tripe.
- Or is it better to find a break point at about 120,000 words and re-work it into the first part of a duology?

To be honest, I find writing the story to be a relatively straightforward job - it is the editing is a {insert expletive of choice here} nightmare; trying to package the story together in a way that maximises its marketability is something that I haven't even been able to properly imagine!

Anyway, thanks in advance for your help, and in retrospect for the fantastic advice that has been provided over the past 106 pages and 4 and a bit years!

mad_iguana
 
Welcome mad_iguana. :)

If I may interject, the first challenge is to get your story written to completion. However, even then, it's only a "first draft". No doubt some things will stand out as requiring closer attention once you get to that stage. :)
 
Thanks Brian - I feared as much, although you read about people who submit the first book of a trilogy before finishing the whole thing, and I perhaps thought optimistically that this might be an option...
Looking forward to getting to the exciting stage of having a final line, though.
 
It really depends if the "first book in the trilogy" is a complete story in itself that happens to have a couple of sequels in the works, or a Tolkienesque first-volume-in-a-single-honking-great-tome.

The former you can sell without having written the rest, no problem, even as a newcomer*; the second... not so much, unless you have a good track record already. The publisher needs to know you can finish what you started!

* A friend of mine got her first three-book deal that way, and I'm hoping to do the same :)
 
not to complicate matters, but there is also the Brent Weeks syndrome to consider: a current marketing tactic of presenting the reader with all 3 volumes of a trilogy in the space of 3 or 4 months, so that they do not have to wait 2-3 years to finish the story (and, presumably, lose interest along the way). if yours is a real trilogy, and works as such, then being able to say to an agent/publisher that the work is complate and available is quite an advantage. (note: this does not obviate the need for the work to be good enough for the agent to begin with....)
 
Thanks guys - that really helps to clarify things.
I guess I'll keep at it for another 6 months or however long it takes to get through everything.
It's not easy writing a 250,000 word novel with a full-time job, a pregnant wife and a 9 month-old baby though!
 
John Jarrold said:
For work, well, I receive material from around thirty authors every week. However, many of them can be turned down after a few chapters, sadly. I don't push myself, because if I'm not enjoying the book, in personal and professional terms, it isn't special enough.


I've always read for pleasure, both fiction and non-fiction. I guess it makes me very picky!
Click to expand...

Hi John!
I just want to ask you if your current email address is the one posted on your web site because I've tried to query you with my book The Cursed Planet Chronicles and I wanted to be sure that it is the right adress. I am a young writer, from Romania, and i've just finished my first book. For me, judging by the number of rejected queries, to get an agent or an agency to publish a SCi Fi book turned out to be a nut with a hard to crack shell, if one is a debutant writer. It seems that today it's all about the money, or the "salability" of the book (I don't know if this is a word, but i've received this opinion about my book from an agent), instead of focusing on new ideeas. Of course, the money issue is of importance for both the writer and the publisher, but it is hard to come up with a new bestseller in this genre where almost everything was said, either in books, movies or video games. And you can't write your novel too "scientificaly", because you want your book to be read by everyone, not only by rocket scientists. Now, if you have a spaceship, it's like : "Been there, done that". A two headed alien monster? The same. And if you add a little romance it's like: "Some lovestruck astronauts, who can't even kiss in the void of space, because they will die without their helmets on". If Isaac Asimov would be alive now he would have to write a nice romance novel about vampires that go to school, and fall in love just like any other adolescent boy. I mean they're not the soulless beasts we know, right? I'm from Romania, so I ought to know better (thank you Bram Stocker, thank you Vlad the Impaler). "Salability" just degenerates the quality of a good SciFi, fiction book. All those Hannah Montana fans just won't read anything if it doesn't involve a romantic type drama between "She", human, and "He", werefolf, vampire, wizard, etc. My book has such a romantic spark between two of my characters, but trust me, you don't want to know how they end up, and the best romance is the one that degrades the characters, that makes them struggle, defying even death, to be toghether. Just like the mister above me, I know how it is to write a 170.000 words novel (in my case), and in the same time having to cope with day to day activities, like work, among others. It's even harder to get published in Romania, where the literary market laks the presence of agents or agencies. So here I am, submitting my query letter to every possible agency or agent from U.S.A, or the rest of the world. To conclude with this long post I would like to ask you John, what makes a good SciFi novel, if not the ideea and the motivation of the writer? Are those the things that make a good book, or is it the "salability"? Sorry for my long post, sorry if I ofended enyone, and sorry for the eventual spelling errors.
 
mad_iguana said:
Thanks guys - that really helps to clarify things.
I guess I'll keep at it for another 6 months or however long it takes to get through everything.
It's not easy writing a 250,000 word novel with a full-time job, a pregnant wife and a 9 month-old baby though!
Click to expand...

Yeah... I can see you've been distracted!

Everyone will tell you: you only get one shot at it. So make it the very best it can be, and good luck with it.
 
Distracted and busy!!
I'm sure everyone has found it to be like this, but my aim is to average about 1,000 words a day, and I've largely been hitting that over the past two months, so I'd hope to have it finished in the new year, then to spend a month doing rewrites and then do the "leave for a month and return" to re-edit. Around about the time baby no. 2 arrives.
At that point, my hope is that I will be showered with plaudits as the most original and awe-inspiring writer in history, and can retire to scribble my thoughts on an island in the Caribbean or something.
Although I fear that last part is the least achievable bit. Which is saying something...
 
Manole Dan said:
It seems that today it's all about the money, or the "salability" of the book (I don't know if this is a word, but i've received this opinion about my book from an agent), instead of focusing on new ideeas. Of course, the money issue is of importance for both the writer and the publisher, but it is hard to come up with a new bestseller in this genre where almost everything was said, either in books, movies or video games. And you can't write your novel too "scientificaly", because you want your book to be read by everyone, not only by rocket scientists. Now, if you have a spaceship, it's like : "Been there, done that". A two headed alien monster? The same. And if you add a little romance it's like: "Some lovestruck astronauts, who can't even kiss in the void of space, because they will die without their helmets on". If Isaac Asimov would be alive now he would have to write a nice romance novel about vampires that go to school, and fall in love just like any other adolescent boy.
Click to expand...

If I may interject, you will find many stories follow general plot structures and contain similar elements. But what makes a good novel probably isn't in trying to be unique, as much as how it engages and impacts a reader. And writers such as Asimov were people of their times. I'm sure if he were starting out fresh today, he'd have no trouble writing fiction - his books would simply be written to the needs of the modern reader. :)
 
Manole Dan said:
It seems that today it's all about the money, or the "salability" of the book
Click to expand...

Oh man, stop tehre for the love of God sake, and listen to what old spider has to say to you. I give you a little secret and that is like you I am a foreigner. That's right. You read it correctly. I'm a Finn, and like you I have been for years acting like a brat, but think about this.

I have devoured - oh how I love that word as there isn't in the Finnish language such a beauty - every single drop of information that I have managed to come across in this forum, and in the others. I have listened, talked, and criticised other people's work as if they would have been mine, and during this period, I have grown as a man.

That, my foreing friend, is what you need to do. You need to grow as a man and become a writer if that is what you want to do. To do that you need to learn nearly everything there is about your language, and if you want to learn to write in English then you need to learn that language as well. The English language is so rich that nearly no other can come close to it; hence, why it has become the language of the world.

Now to your original part of the question, the publishing business is hard. Believe me, I have tried and I am still banging my head against the wall. Although, I do believe that action has created a some sort of hole, and now I can see the industry at the other side. You're in the same position. You have created your masterpiece and cherised it like your own child. Now you want to push it out on the world, and here comes the publishing industry. As fast as I understand they're looking under their collective brow your masterpiece. So trust it. Trust that your child can become a giant. Trust that has legst to stand on its own because the winds in the book circles are fierce. At there those who cannot fight against the hurricane level gusts...

Well, I hope you get the image. It's a sad situation. So many of them die. So many of them gets lost in the shelves of the people to be never read again. You do not want your child to become one of those lost ones, do you?

That's why the industry is so damn hard. They only want survivors.

So it's not about the money. No sir. Don't believe that lie.

Your job is to write the best as you can, and make your child strong. Your ultimate goal is to create through your art Titans, and I really mean it. Titans are the God eternal warriors. They can fight against the winds, against the odds and make name to themselves. Not to you. Your name means nothing.

And here is the name of one of those Titans: Lord of the Rings. Nobody really talks about the creator but they do talk about the book. The impact this Titan made to this world. It is standing nearly alone at the top of the mountain and it is waiting for the others. There are many of those as you very well know, but there is one that is bigger than anything else. And the name of the Titan is, the Bible. Year after year it keeps it keeps standing against the winds. The people believe in it. They have created lives over the millenia's on it, and even fought wars in its name.

So please sir, think about your child. Do you want to send it out in the dark without giving it a fighting chance? The industry doesnät want to do that and hopefully you do not want to do that either.

However, if it ready to out then lay your trust on it.

There are many gatekeepers and you need to find one that can see the potential of this Titan.

Have some faith brother.

ctg
 
I said:
If I may interject, you will find many stories follow general plot structures and contain similar elements. But what makes a good novel probably isn't in trying to be unique, as much as how it engages and impacts a reader. And writers such as Asimov were people of their times. I'm sure if he were starting out fresh today, he'd have no trouble writing fiction - his books would simply be written to the needs of the modern reader. :)
Click to expand...

You're right. It is about the reader and about the "wants" of the reader, but I was just pointing out that the SciFi market is shifting in a way that leaves us with so few options when it comes to publish our work without any fear abot the "change the beggining, change the middle, change the end" line. :) And yes, Asimov, Lovecraft, Tolkien, and others would still be "in the tops" today if they were to start all over again, but then again we are we and they are they. Have you managed to publish any books?
 
ctg said:
Oh man, stop tehre for the love of God sake, and listen to what old spider has to say to you. I give you a little secret and that is like you I am a foreigner. That's right. You read it correctly. I'm a Finn, and like you I have been for years acting like a brat, but think about this.

ctg
Click to expand...

First I would like to salute you, my foreign friend.
Second I would like to take my hat off in front of you, because, from your message I can say that you are a well read man.
About your post, I can tell you that I am a master of my language, and, I admit it, nearly a master in english. I do want to grow so that I will become a great writer, but sometimes you need that extra push from that someone who could help you become great. As for the child that needs to get out in the world, I'll just say that there comes a time when "the parent" needs to let go, to let him manage by his own, but no one will ever apreciate that child more the you. I do want to create a Titan, but sometimes even the Titans can fall, like Prometheus, and this image will be translated into symbols like this: Zeus will be the publisher/agent who judges the Titan, the Titan itself is the book, chained by the mountain, who is the writer, the only support it haves, and the vulture represent the critics (literary ones or readers) who will either let it live or tear it to shreds. And sincerely, if you read The Hobbit and you don't know who wrote it, it's like buying a new car just because it is new, without looking at the brand. And when other people would ask you: "Hey! Is this your new ... car?", you would answer: "I don't know what it is, I just know it's new." The Bible ... this is a though one, sort to speak. I don't know if one writer could compare himself with twelve apostles, nor any message transmited by a book could start a worldwide phenomenon like religion. The Bible was THE BOOK of its time, and that's that. Jesus Christ is THE CHARACTER, and he will ever be the most known character ever. I don't think it is possible for anyone to come up with something this big.
I have fate and I will always have. I guess Im going through a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde phase. My first personality is that of the frustrated writer that didn't got his book published, the other one is that of the writer that keeps on trying.

Thank for the support brother!
 
I said:
And writers such as Asimov were people of their times. I'm sure if he were starting out fresh today, he'd have no trouble writing fiction - his books would simply be written to the needs of the modern reader. :)
Click to expand...

Try to imagine this! His book would have been called: "The werewolf that howled at the moon", or "The vampire that bittes the dust", or "Those crazy aliens and their flying machines/disks", or "Night of the living scrap robots - a story about oil leaks, rust and damaged pistons". :)

I'm just jocking. His books would still be great.
 
Manole, sometimes the biggest barrier to publishing is the writer itself. You've written something, cherish and protect it. But in doing so, you can stifle it. I have kids, and it is inevitable they grow. That doesn't make me love or cherish them less. But I know they need to grow and I can't stop them. I think writing a story is a bit like that. What you start off with is great, wonderful - but inevitably it needs to grow. Rewriting, editing, do not destroy a story as some may fear, but should make it better, stronger, more able to survive. However, sometimes the writer does not want to let go, and instead remains with their first draft.

Don't imagine the industry will stop you either - as ctg points out, publishers do want surivivors - those who dare to make every last available effort to be published, by honing their writing skills so that they can express their ideas in the most engaging stories.

Neither dedication nor skill are enough for success - you need both together. If you dare write, you can dare to write better. If you can dare to do that, you're showing dedication, and hopefully improving your skill. :)
 
The reason I am this determined in my opinions may have to do with the fact that I am only 25 of age. I guess we live and learn. :)
 
It isn't easy to get published. I'm not sure it ever has been, though I suspect competition for places on publishers' lists is perhaps tougher now than ever.

However, it is still possible to be published using your own voice, your own vision, your own story, without sacrificing the individuality of your work on the altar of homogeneity. Trust me, I'm living proof of that.

What does this take? A combination of factors: talent, ability (not the same thing). hard work, a thick skin, dedication, application... and luck.

Take away any one of those and the odds are really stacked against you.
 
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