H. E.

[Connavar]

Edgars i rate unlike Hugo and Nebula


Ah good to know he did sf and that im getting some with Dreams with Sharp Teeth.

I saw in Paladin story that he seems the kind of writer thats on the borderland between sf and fantasy. I like those. I like authors that make you go "huh is this sf or fantasy or even Science Fantasy ??"

 

[j d worthington]

Just an update: From what I hear from Deep Shag records, they're going to be reissuing the first of the On the Road CDs, are currently offering a sale on the set, and there will also be a fourth in the series out sometime around Spring 2009....

Also, there's going to be a collection of issues of The Incredible Hulk for which he did co-scripting:

Amazon.com: Incredible Hulk: Heart of the Atom: Harlan Ellison, Roy Thomas, Chris Claremont, Archie Goodwin, Len Wein, Herb Trimpe, Bill Mantlo, Peter Gillis, Sal Buscema, Joe Staton: Books

 

[J-Sun]

So he hasnt written any rated SF at all ?


Shame i was hoping for him writing what i call PKD SF. Those that dont care much about science but more human element,philosophical in near future or contemporary dystopia like world.

I agree with j. d. worthington that Ellison is often hard to pin down and went through spells (may even be in one, though he's hard to keep up with) where he refused to be identified as a "science fiction" author at all. But he still definitely wrote a lot of what you're talking about and it seems Alone Against Tomorrow was a collection that covered both excellent and frequently science-fictional works. That was the first one I read and it had a huge impact.

On the personal matters, like others have said, my impression of Ellison is that he's a great friend to have and not a bad guy to the indifferent and a terrible enemy to have. I wouldn't say he was "nice" or "mean" or "good" or "bad", as it would depend on what you were to him. But I've never met him.

And the novella of "A Boy and His Dog" is one of the best things ever.

(Incidentally, I may never have mentioned it before, but I find that term "fix-up" irritating, as it has connotations of somehow being a cheat or shoddy material, which is frequently far from the case. Putting together novels based on previously-published material is something almost as old as publishing, and has produced a heck of a lot of great work, not only from the sff end of things, but from people such as Dickens, Le Fanu, Collins (many of the Victorians, in fact) to name only a few....

I think van Vogt coined the term, being one who created them in industrial volume, but I like the term. I think it's too broadly used, though. Something like The Foundation Trilogy is an omnibus of three (what I call) connected collections, and isn't a fixup. It had a prefatory story written for its book form, but that's it. And I, Robot isn't a fixup, either. It's a connected collection that has interstitial material written for it. He did modify a story to make it refer to "U.S. Robots and Mechanical Men" to make it fit the rest (and give it back its original title), but that's trivial. But what van Vogt did was to take often unrelated stories and change names, places, things, and re-write beginnings and endings and try to meld them into a new whole work. He was often very successful at it but those are "fixups", because they're radically modified from their original constituent parts. And, yeah, it has connotations of shoddy junk slapped together - or perhaps more accurately, of stuff slapped together into shoddy junk - which is fair enough. As a rule, if your stories were good, why modify them into something else? Just string 'em together like a string of pearls and put that out as a book. You're likely to modify them into something worse than they were to begin with. And how structually sound will your novel be, if it has half a dozen different plots - beginnings, middles, and ends - fuzzed into one? As I say, van Vogt frequently succeeded with the books, taken by themselves, but I rarely have the originals to compare against. I doubt The Voyage of the Space Beagle would have much on a collection of the stories it was created from, starting with "Black Destroyer". There, where I do have the original, I see it sort of get "fuzzed" into the rest of the book. Something similar happens with Katherine MacLean's "The Missing Man" when it gets fuzzed into Missing Man. Still excellent, but loses some of its distinctiveness and impact.

Anyway, I'm off-topic and rambling. Sorry. I'd just say that I don't have a problem with the term "fixup", just with the lack of distinction between it and connected collections/story series and actual novels.

 

[j d worthington]

Either I'd never known or had forgotten it was Van who came up with the term. And part of the reasons his worked is because his work was so very wonky to begin with. That manic approach of his kept so many balls in the air that one really has to concentrate to realize that the juggler has also just picked your pocket, tweaked your nose, and poured a shot of raw whiskey down your throat....

(This is not, by the way, meant as a denigration of the man or his work, which I enjoy a great deal, and of which I have more than a few fond memories....)

And yes, Ellison is a difficult man to pin down; and many people have a great deal of trouble separating the man from the work... in part because Ellison himself is such a performer, and in part because there is so much material in the collections and such of a seemingly personally revelatory nature. I'd be careful taking him entirely at his word in such cases, though. I don't mean he outright lies, but the writer in him certainly knows how to enhance the dramatic possibilities of any situation he is describing....

 

[J-Sun]

van Vogt:

And part of the reasons his worked is because his work was so very wonky to begin with. That manic approach of his kept so many balls in the air that one really has to concentrate to realize that the juggler has also just picked your pocket, tweaked your nose, and poured a shot of raw whiskey down your throat....

*lol* That's a great description. And, yes, that's probably putting your finger exactly on why he was so good at them.

Ellison:

I don't mean he outright lies, but the writer in him certainly knows how to enhance the dramatic possibilities of any situation he is describing....

Interesting you should say that. I've never read it but he does have a story, published as a book, called "All the Lies That Are My Life". Sort of a Cretan paradox.

 

[j d worthington]

Ellison:


Interesting you should say that. I've never read it but he does have a story, published as a book, called "All the Lies That Are My Life". Sort of a Cretan paradox.

Yes, it was both published as a separate book (with additional material by Ellison and others) and included in the collection Shatterday. That title, and the theme of the tale, have raised speculation and rumors ever since....

I had the pleasure of hearing him read the story (a novella, no less) at a convention I attended, shortly after he'd finished it and before he'd quite decided what to do with it. He held the audience enthralled throughout. Whatever else, his performance when reading is an experience not to be missed....

 

[J-Sun]

Yes, it was both published as a separate book (with additional material by Ellison and others) and included in the collection Shatterday. That title, and the theme of the tale, have raised speculation and rumors ever since....

I either didn't know that or had forgotten it. Thanks for that information - I may seek that collection out.

I had the pleasure of hearing him read the story (a novella, no less) at a convention I attended, shortly after he'd finished it and before he'd quite decided what to do with it. He held the audience enthralled throughout. Whatever else, his performance when reading is an experience not to be missed....

Yeah, I've never had the privilege, but I'm aware of that reputation. Cool that you got to experience it. He's also known for doing things like taking a story idea from someone at a bookstore and sitting down and writing it out in front of them and later being able to sell it. (I may not have the story quite right, but it's something along those lines.) This could be dismissed as a simple stunt but I think it kind of comes from him just writing like people breathe. And being a showman, as well, of course.

 

[j d worthington]

He's also known for doing things like taking a story idea from someone at a bookstore and sitting down and writing it out in front of them and later being able to sell it. (I may not have the story quite right, but it's something along those lines.) This could be dismissed as a simple stunt but I think it kind of comes from him just writing like people breathe. And being a showman, as well, of course.

Yes, he has done that on various occasions -- the set of short tales, "From A to Z in the Chocolate Alphabet", being one example. As he notes, he (like most writers) takes his ideas from all sorts of sources: overheard (and misheard -- see "Jeffty Is Five") bits of conversation; suggestions made by various people; things he's seen or experienced; etc. The writing in a shop-window and such seems of a part with a lot he has done to "demystify" writing; much like quite a few of his introductions and other essays; giving the reader a lot more insight into the process than is often the case....

 

[blacknorth]

Well, doing a forum search for Archie Roy threw up a solitary thread about Harlan Ellison, lol, I'm not sure who flatters whom.

I've been remiss in not reading as much of HE as I would have liked. I loved the heavily anthologised I Have No Mouth... and Jeffty Is Five, but the lack of novels scared me off a little - almost as though I didn't want to read further because I could feel that pang of regret in advance. Working in shorter fiction can be seen as being somewhat ephemeral, and I don't want that to be HE's legacy at all because I love those stories I've read.

Time to dig out those dog-eared paperback collections.

 

[dask]

I've been remiss in not reading as much of HE as I would have liked. I loved the heavily anthologised I Have No Mouth... and Jeffty Is Five, but the lack of novels scared me off a little - almost as though I didn't want to read further because I could feel that pang of regret in advance. Working in shorter fiction can be seen as being somewhat ephemeral, and I don't want that to be HE's legacy at all because I love those stories I've read.

Time to dig out those dog-eared paperback collections.

I'd forgive him lack of novels if he'd only bring out THE LAST DANGEROUS VISIONS. Actually H.E. does have at least one novel to his credit --- sort of --- a collaboration with Edward Bryant: PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES ("a novel of the starlost").

 

[j d worthington]

He has more than that: Spider Kiss is a novel (quite a good one, actually), The Man with Nine Lives/The Sound of a Scythe is a "fix-up" novel; Memos from Purgatory, though non-fiction, is novel length. But yes, the vast majority of Ellison's work in prose has either been in the short story to novelette form or essays (of which he has done an enormous number).

As to this:

Working in shorter fiction can be seen as being somewhat ephemeral, and I don't want that to be HE's legacy at all because I love those stories I've read.

I'm afraid I don't follow you. Ephemeral how?

 

[blacknorth]

He has more than that: Spider Kiss is a novel (quite a good one, actually), The Man with Nine Lives/The Sound of a Scythe is a "fix-up" novel; Memos from Purgatory, though non-fiction, is novel length. But yes, the vast majority of Ellison's work in prose has either been in the short story to novelette form or essays (of which he has done an enormous number).

As to this:



I'm afraid I don't follow you. Ephemeral how?

Sorry, J.D. if I offended you, honestly wasn't meant. By ephemeral I was lamenting the fact that shorter fiction is often more likely to be out of print, partly because of the efforts involved in compiling and editing it together, and partly because the short story doesn't seem to have the market or the audience it once had.

 

[j d worthington]

Sorry, J.D. if I offended you, honestly wasn't meant.

Eh? No offense taken. I was just confused about your meaning, hence my query.

By ephemeral I was lamenting the fact that shorter fiction is often more likely to be out of print, partly because of the efforts involved in compiling and editing it together, and partly because the short story doesn't seem to have the market or the audience it once had.

To some degree, this is true; but I see a bit of a resurgence of interest in the short story (albeit a slow one), in part because of all the smaller publishers and POD books, which make so much shorter fiction available again to readers (thus allowing them to see a much broader range of what the various forms have to offer).

However, your statement about the efforts involved when it comes to putting together such collections -- especially, I think, when done by another editor and dealing with a writer as volatile as Ellison at least can be, is a good point.

I do think, however, that Ellison is one of America's more notable short story writers of the latter part of the twentieth century/early twenty-first (and we've actually had a fair number of such), and that his work will continue to be revived and will last long beyond my lifetime (let alone his).

In a sense, it will be a good thing when people are able to separate the work from the man -- something it is very difficult, if not impossible for the majority to do (myself included, to some degree) -- as we will then be able to have a much clearer view of the merits and faults of what he has achieved.

In the meantime... I just received a copy of a book in the mail: Harlan Ellison: The Edge of Forever, by Ellen Weil and Gary K. Wolfe, which would appear to be a general critical overview of Ellison's work (fiction, essays, and scripts). I have no idea about the quality of the book or Ellison's reaction to it, but it should be interesting to read. (On a related note, several years ago, I began working on a book on Ellison, studying certain themes in his work and focusing on what I called -- unconsciously influenced by one of his own titles, I think -- the "angry compassion" which I see running throughout his work. I had to set it aside when my life went up the flue for several years but, should I get back to it -- which I would like to do at some point -- it would be helpful to know what to avoid to prevent undue similarities with someone else's work....)

Oh, and as far as TLDV is concerned -- while I would be very, very pleased to see the thing finally see print (though I fear a fair amount of what is in there would now be, stylistically at least, more literary curiosities than relevant to our time), I must admit that I seriously doubt the thing will ever see the light of day. Damn' shame, as had it come out even within a few years of its original proposed release date, it would undoubtedly have been a major contribution to the field.... Ah, well, I can always hope that I'm wrong, and that it will see print, and will blow people (myself included) away. 'Twould be a very nice outcome after so long a wait (I've been looking for the darned thing since late '72 or early '73.....)

 

[AE35Unit]

Interesting. Fantastic fiction say that he 'never published an SF novel' and yet I see several here:
Harlan Ellison

 

[j d worthington]

Oh, dear... another thing they got seriously wrong. *sigh*

Web of the City (his first book) is in no way sff. It is a novel about gang kids in New York. It is alternately crude (as befits a young writer) and very good; not at all bad for a first novel, but there is no way it touches on sf save as metaphors for a description or two.

The Man with Nine Lives (The Sound of a Scythe) is a sff novel, but it's a fix-up novel of the original novella "The Sound of a Scythe" and a couple of other stories, plus some new material. Awkward, at times clumsy, but also with some very good moments. On the whole, a fairly typical sf "novel" (it is quite short) of the sort to be seen in the ACE double line, though featuring themes and motifs Ellison would revisit from time to time, most notably in "The Region Between".

A Touch of Infinity is his first sf story collection, the flip-side of the ACE double with the novel mentioned just above. The table of contents can be found here:

Ellison / A Touch of Infinity

In fact, that's a good site for any such information on Ellison.

Spider Kiss is a rock-'n'-roll novel based loosely on Jerry Lee Lewis (with quite a few other things thrown in), which incorporated an early Ellison story, "Matinee Idyll" (somewhat rewritten) as one of its core elements. Good book; some powerful stuff there, but not sff.

Doomsman -- another double; this one Belmont; originally released with Telepower by Lee Hoffman, later re-released (much to Ellison's dismay) with Lin Carter's The Thief of Thoth. (Ellison is not a fan of Carter's fiction, to put it mildly.) It's an early story (1958), reprinted without Ellison's prior knowledge (iirc), and not one he's likely to allow to see reprint anytime soon. Very early Ellison; very crude. Yes, it's sf, but -- aside from a few moments or if you're interested in seeing Ellison's development as a writer -- I don't really think it's worth looking for....

Phoenix Without Ashes -- the novel is by Ed Bryant, from Ellison's screenplay for the pilot of The Starlost. An interesting book, not a sterling attempt, on the generational ship idea. The introduction is the only part of the book's text by Ellison though, of course, the entire structure and basis of the thing is his original award-winning screenplay.

Vic and Blood and Harlan Ellison's Dream Corridor (of which there are two volumes) are "graphic novels"... or, rather, one is a graphic novel, while the other is a set of comic book adaptations of Ellison tales by different artists, with some new material added... much like The Illustrated Harlan Ellison of some years before. Even Vic and Blood is an adaptation of previously existing stories: "A Boy and His Dog", "Eggsucker", and "Run, Spot, Run", which are parts of a long-proposed novel called Blood's a Rover.

So, really, the only thing they've got more-or-less right there is The Man with Nine Lives... and even that isn't a true novel in length; more a novelette....

 

[AE35Unit]

Well it seems FF is good at making mistakes! They have A.C.Clarke's Songs of Distant Earth listed as a collection of stories!
I've emailed them in the past about a similar mistake but got no reply.