You know your a DJ whumpper when....

Guys being Guys

Originally posted by Anni

[ I imagine playing that kind of character and being treated like that by the fans has become rather tedious for the actor himself and I don't wonder at his desire to curtail the part.

I sincerely hope that the Daniel Jackson replacement is not the same kind of character. [/B]


Interesting you should mention this as I was just reading an old book (1983) entitled Intimate Strangers, about the culture of celebrity by ? (slips my mind- kick me). It talks about the way attractive male actors are sometimes made to feel or do feel emasculated by their own beautiful image - i.e., having to look pretty all the time and essentially being treated like an object, usually reserved for beautiful women.

It brought to mind my first impressions of H/C fic (any show) and whumping fic which I definately thought emasculated the heroes.
But I still like to read it.

I just wondered if anyone has ever considered this aspect of the trials and tribs of being a handsome male celeb.
 
Yes, I think for many celebs and actors this is actually the case and except for those who occupy Hollywood where EVERYONE is expected to be beautiful and if you aren't you don't belong, I've met many really goodlooking actors whose wives are very ordinary looking women. Almost as if they have deliberately gone for someone who is like that.

Of course, the fact that a very beautiful partner might cause the handsome actor to be upstaged is another factor.

I feel very strongly that introducing a character like Daniel, who is the type to awaken the 'cosseting' instinct in many women anyway was a risk.... but in the movie, they had James Spader play him and while James is a relatively good looking guy, he's a lot less pretty and vulnerable looking than Michael Shanks. There for he didn't have quite the same impact as Michael has.

It is true that James created the 'needy and nerdy' look of Daniel originally and of course MS has carried on the motion as any actor would attempt to do. But between them MS is, without a doubt, much 'prettier' than James feature for feature and I think the combination of a very handsome young man, combined with the 'neediness and vulnerability' of the character of Daniel has produced a rather disastrous combination. One which a VERY large section of the female part of Stargate fandom have been utterly unable to resist. Hence the considerable hysteria whenever his name comes up and the constant desire of fanfic writers, fans and even the Stargate writers to whump the hell out of him and basically constantly reaffirm the 'needy, pretty boy' image of the character, which has translated itself to the actor himself.

I think that it's so obvious that MS has been constantly trying to offset this impression.... in Season 5, it suddenly dawned on his drooling fandom that MS had developed some considerable biceps since Season 4..... he also acted the roughie toughie soldier type a lot more..... previous to that he had his hair cut short in a 'manly' style instead of the Hugh Grant foppish cowlick hairstyle. He even stated that the nerdy Daniel as created by James was 'not really his type'. I think this whole exercise has been to try and toughen the character up so that he didn't appeal in the same way.

Unfortunately, the damage had already been well and truly done. The rabid fans were his fans no matter what he did.... which is nice in a way.... if they weren't quite so rabid perhaps.

He cut his hair....they drooled over that and added his blue eyes and cute bum to the mix. He developed biceps and the river of drool swelled to a positive white water rafting river.....he fired his weapon like a professional and they sighed blissfully over "Daniel growing up and becoming a man".

Whatever the poor man did to alleviate this situation has made no difference whatsoever. He has taken his role in this show as far as the fans will let it go. He must be frustrated beyond belief. And I truly think that out of sheer exasperation and desperation, he has decided to cut his losses and do something else.

Perhaps actually become an actor maybe?

Because what he is at present is mainly a pretty face....but it doesn't make him a truly good actor. He needs to go off and do some gruelling theatre work for a little longer than eight months (which is the length he did previously) and perhaps some more small supporting roles in movies and TV (preferably roles which ARE not reliant upon having a pretty face) and a lot of PR appearances. Just like every other actor does to get himself/herself noticed.

He'll always be pretty but maybe he should compromise that a little in a similar way to Brad Pitt who, as I recall, made a couple of movies where he actually damaged his prettiness slightly in order to get into the role. I seem to recall one where he actually had his front teeth chipped.

This is why I sincerely hope that the replacement character will most positively NOT be the same vulnerable, droopy, pretty, nerdy type as the Daniel of yore. I don't think the show's producers will be doing themselves or the show any favours if they do this.

I don't feel anything for MS as a person....but I do truly sympathise with the fact that this show, while putting him in the limelight, has also been a constant uphill struggle for him with a fanbase who hysterically drool and fantasise over him no matter what he does.

I am sure that this has been a rather bittersweet experience for the poor guy.

:cool:
 
Originally posted by Anni

I don't feel anything for MS as a person....but I do truly sympathise with the fact that this show, while putting him in the limelight, has also been a constant uphill struggle for him with a fanbase who hysterically drool and fantasise over him no matter what he does.

I am sure that this has been a rather bittersweet experience for the poor guy.

:cool:

Hey Anni,

I understand what you are trying to say and have to agree with many points that you have made.
But do you really think that its our (as in the Danny fans) fault that MS has decided to leave?
From my point of view Jack has just as many fans and they can drool just as much as us Danny fans (sometimes worse) and I don't see him wanting to leave the show because of it.;)
I do agree that some (and I say some) of the Danny fans can go over the top...but I just treat it like a joke..I am a Danny fan..but as I have said before its not the reason why I watch Stargate or the reason why I started to watch it.
I do feel sorry for any one in the acting business as I have always thought it was hard for them as when they are starting out they want to be noticed and have fans..then when they get them they find them to overbearing:rolleyes:
Yeah in a way I feel sorry for any actor that is in a long running show such as SG1 or Buffy ect because they (I think ) get type cast in that role.
I also fully understand why MS wanted out of SG1 and to be honest I don't blame him:D
Of course this is not all aimed at you Anni..but I do love it when we debate about MS..in fact I would love to chat about this in person...at Wolf SG3..if we have the time.
Anyway I will leave it at that.....:D
 
Sweetie...... I don't honestly think that it's ALL Daniel fans that have led to him getting irritated. I honestly don't think that it's the only reason for him leaving either. He may just genuinely NEED to move on with his career and no one could blame him for that at all.

However, I do firmly believe that a certain quite large section of the Daniel and MS fandom have contributed to his apparent unhappiness, as was clearly shown by events which happened a few months ago. One thing I do think is that the people who are mainly fans of the character Daniel are quite markedly different from those who are fans of Michael Shanks. The latter seem more....well...fanatical somehow.... This of course is just my perception and it may not be the actual case. The Daniel fans seem to well....take it all with more of a pinch of salt somehow... he's a fictional character, they know it and therefore they joke about lusting after him, and I don't see anything wrong with that as long as the fantasy doesn't intrude into reality.

Of course the same goes for MS fans, that it is dangerous to take fantasy into reality and I am sure that most don't intend for this to happen and are adult enough to keep it under control. But there are always those who can't.. and they spoil it for others. Lusting after a fictional character and imagining his imaginary lifestyle (as I do with Cronus) is a different kettle of fish to lusting after the real actor and delving into his real lifestyle. Fans always walk a fine line between both.

I don't know if this makes sense to you, but I am certainly looking forward to some wonderful discussions over this!

And I have sent the next two parts of the novel to you! Let me know when you want more. And thank you for the wonderful compliments....if my writing brings pleasure to people it is reward enough for me!

:D :cool:
 
Anni,
It's incredible but your take on why we whump Daniel made me sit down with one of my stories and view it a bit differently. I'm almost to the point of revising the section with some whumping because now I feel so differently about the character. :crazy:

Skip and I joke about being a whumper of this or that character and to what degree. I never wondered at the need to beat up one character over another being set up by cultural mindset. It's the weakest link thing.

And for how MS copes? He's perhaps been blessed with taking this role opposite the best ear in the TV business for being set in people's minds as a pretty boy... RDA. I'll never forget that day at Gatcon with those middle-aged women just passing through the hall and caught sight of a cast photo and just... I don't think there's a word for it... RDA is stuck with Mac, as Mac, remembered as Mac. You have to see and be two feet from the physical embodiment of all the emoticon filled, drool posts that you've ever done to realize what you're doing! I do hope the majority of people make these posts as a complete joke. I have a better understanding of what those pretty actors are hiding from.
 
Originally posted by Anni

I don't know if this makes sense to you, but I am certainly looking forward to some wonderful discussions over this!

And I have sent the next two parts of the novel to you! Let me know when you want more. And thank you for the wonderful compliments....if my writing brings pleasure to people it is reward enough for me!

:D :cool:

Yeah of course it does make sence...it was just in your last post (if it was read they way I read it) could have been taken that you thought that it was the fault of the fans to why he wanted to leave.
I think you made some great points in both posts and like I have said before I can fully understand why MS would want to leave Stargate.
I also agree with what CynVision is saying...as when I watched Andromeda when MS was in it...I just saw him as Daniel :rolleyes:
Im also looking forward to some great disscusions over this...not long to wait now :D

Thanks for sending the other parts over....I will have to see if the printer is up to printing all those pages out.
The story is great and I can't seem to put it down :D Im sure I will want more soon:cool:
 
Actors and their roles

Michael is a good, solid actor. I've seen his work in the few other things he's done - none TV related - movies and stage. Physically, he's grown out of his late young male body type and into what will be his final form for quite a while, much as RDA did from the beginning of Mac to the end.

Different facial curves as the late 'baby fat' shades off, different muscle groups are more noticiable now. Not saying the hair cut didn't bring out his fae more, but even if it's been short haired the first season, his face was just physically 'softer'.

I think, professionally, he's wise to be making his move now. he's made a name for himself in TV, he's done a bit of directing, he's experienced 'on the boards' and has done some movie work. He needs to get out of the typecast image. 'Outer Limits' and 'Andromedia' put him, basically, in the same role: science tech nerd. If he stays put, he's gonna end up like most of the folks who've done Star Trek and are stuck there for all time. He needs to get out and establish 'Michael Shanks' as an actor, not 'the guy who played that geek on Stargate'.

Rick? Well, Rick will always be 'Mac'. That was his high exposure role in prime time for a lot of us and with it in the reruns all the time, it's always going to be his 'name'. It's never gone away and probably won't. I was more than a bit nonplused to find I could watch the 'Mac' reruns via Windows Media Player from a live TV station in Greece today, if I could catch the time conversion. the show is everywhere.

It's a shame in so many ways as Richard is a very versitile actor and I've enjoyed his work on small and large screen. It would be interesting to see if he ever tried to make the transition to stage.

So... where does this all boil down to being a DJ Whumper [Ghod, I can remember the list and approx. month that term was coined. I'm too old for this...]. Pretty much everything we've seen Michael in has been a softer, man-hurt-by-fate man role [up until receantly and I, for one, like what Michael's done with D. Jackson. No one lives in a cave in isolation for four years. He's had to grow and change to survive.] and Rick's roles have been the more dominant, heart-soft-as-mush protector. The two just cry out to be paired and whumped. The characters come bulit that way.

Younger man guided by older. Younger man rescued by older. Older man helped through old wounds of the soul by young heart. The varients go on.

To protect, to cherish and to nurture are some of the very basic concepts that drive mankind. Whumping lets us do that knowing all will be well in the end.

And if it isn't? Well, then it's probably me writing in my 'Angel of Death' persona pulling some serious agnst out of one or the other.

www.seticat.50megs.com
 
Gosh...... well..... what can I say? however.....

I still stand firmly by the things I said....

What did I say? ;)

I must be getting old too.....:D :D

I don't whump Danny in my writings at all... I don't think he's worth that much effort!

As for MS..... I would be very much surprised if he didn't just sink into TV obscurity eventually... unless of course the big noises at MGM have him pegged as the next Brad Pitt! The new 'golden boy' for the fans.

And that is my opinion.... I've yet to see him perform on stage and will certainly do that if by any chance he does some theatre in Vancouver next year while I am there. But I have seen some movie and TV bits and pieces, including Andromeda, and his performance, while adequate to be sure.... did not impact on me at all.

But then it has to be said that I don't admire the man's newly evident hard muscled older manliness which has apparently been emerging as he grows older. I tend to look at whether an actor is able to convince me that he IS the role he is playing, rather than whether he LOOKS the part. So far, all this actor has proved is that he can play Daniel Jackson in Stargate. Even in Andromeda I saw....Daniel Jackson in Stargate. In fact I kept wondering whether I was watching a crossover. EVen in Escape from Mars I thought.....Daniel Jackson from Stargate!

Personally, I rather admire actors who have a bit more presence than that.

:cool: ;)
 
i don't generally whump danny much, but i like the ones i read: the funny ones, not the ones that make you cry....
 
kudos ladies

in fact, i role reverse when i whump. when it isn't just everyone getting whumped (and hey, sometimes i do have plots and not just mindless violence. er.... i hope LOL) i end up having jack whumped more and daniel having to take his role as protector/watcher and seeing the world through another's eyes... don't know why, but i just don't want to do the traditional. probably me just being peevish and rebellious in a petty way but still;)

for me, it's just somethign that i love to turn around. dunno why!
 
Reversal

I agree, Skip. Daniel's a lot stronger - mentally, physically and emotionally - then a lot of folks think or want to believe he is. I enjoy writing a strong yet gentle Daniel as gentle does not have to = meek or weak.
 
Rowan..... you and Skip may well view the character in that light... and especially for you this will be as a result of having been in charge of young people and watching them develop. and skip is an extremely intelligent and very perceptive young woman. And of course there are others who are extremely rational about him too.

However.... the mainstream part of this particular fandom does not consist of people like you....or Skip...or me... It actually consists of people who either incapable or unwilling for whatever reason to rationalise it in the way you are able to do.

I agree totally that gentle does not need to mean weak. And I know that a character like this would probably have a great inner strength born from any adversity in his (her) life. Because sometimes the gentle, strong people can take the problems and adversities in their lives and internalise it, thereby translating it into even greater inner strength.

The problem is that not every fan and certainly not every, in fact not even half of the fanfic writers see Daniel in that way at all. they see him as the nerdy needy character who gets tortured and put through the most horrific scenarios and then resscued by Jack....or Teal'c on occasion and then of course, the piece de resistance....Sam...acting as the strong female warrior and the complete and total antithesis of a seemingly soft and klutzy male who is viewed as civilian...clever but unwise in the ways of violence and naive.

It irritates me beyond belief when they do this. Because I don't think he is naive. I think he's perhaps wise beyond his years. but this is not how he is perceived by those fans and writers. They love to whump him because it's always comforting to see someone else being in that position rather than you. this is human nature.

I know that you have stated many times your experience in the military and I am sure that this after what.... 20 years plus.... is quite considerable. I have only had 10 years in the military as a regular soldier (this means I was permanent active service for ten years), but I fought in two wars....two peacekeeping operations and did 2 tours in Northern Ireland. Five of those operational tours were as a combat soldier... and yes, contrary to popular belief and the official word from the MOD the British Army DOES have women who have been trained and served in combat operations.

In addition to this, I am a trained PTSD counsellor who has carried out counselling debriefings from special forces people on return from missions.... ordinary soldiers....police....fire service and on one occasion hostages.

I have seen a great deal of human nature at its best and its worst.. And I have done, heard and seen things that would curl the average person's hair. So I DO know what I am talking about. And I can recognise certain aspects of human behaviour when I see it.

The thing that constantly bothers me is not whether someone is a Danny whumper so much, but that it has subtly altered for people into a perception of the character of the actual actor and this is irrational because nobody knows this guy really, unless you're a close friend or relative and the reality of his character will probably be quite different to the perfection often perceived by the more rabid fan. He may not be the person they imagine him to be...because he's a human being and he has good days and bad days, he's just like everyone else in that respect.

I still imagine that the 'fan' experience has given him pause for thought and may have sent him along a different path to the one he initially envisaged. He wouldn't be human if he wasn't affected by all of the fuss.

:cool:
 
Comment

Anni, by no means have I ever meant for you to feel that I didn't think you knew what you were talking about. On top of the military, I've spent 30 years in Critical Care/Emergency Medicine - both civ and military. I understand full well the process of people's heads. And my own as I am currently rated 100% for combat related PTSD from the Gulf and come from a pretty abusive and battering home.

I agree that a great many fans want to see Daniel in the weak passive role. And that's fine for them. I don't write him that way and if that means the vast majority of folks don't want to read what I write, that's fine with me. I write for me. If someone else enjoys it, so much the better.

None of this discusion has ever meant to be a bone of contention between parties. I'm sorry if it's become this for anyone.
 
I've read some of your work Rowan.... and unlike many, and in spite of the slash label... you treat the subject you write about with a great deal of sensitivity and insight into the character and I was very impressed with what I did read. You have a real talent for writing and I wonder if like me, how much of that sensitivity and insight comes from the experiences we both have had in a military environment. If I had a penny for the times that civvies have assumed that because I am a former soldier that I don't have any kind of normal human feelings.

If anything I think it gives us a much greater insight into the human psyche.

I don't mind reading stuff about Daniel Jackson if it is written from an angle which not only exploits the gentle nature of the character, but also highlights the inner strengths which this poor guy would have to have in order to survive in this world of ours. I would agree that MS has done a wonderful job of trying to portray this. I just think its a shame that a certain section of fandom have turned those strengths into weaknesses. and thereby created some needy creature who is neither Daniel the character or Michael the man.

I really really do think that MS has made the right decision in his career and hopefully he will go from strength to strength.

And I can't see the show suffering really.... the others are a strong enough group to counteract any negative things which may emerge. I can, however, see a whole host of Danny whumping fics coming out once the big leaving scene is complete though!




























:cool: ;)
 
daniel is not weak. i think that's the problem i have with lots of the h/c fic, he is often used as the wimpy innocent victim. far from it. danny's traveled the world since he was a kid, even assuming he had nothing but nice foster parents, he likely had a far from 'leave it to beaver' happy childhood...to me he's like a willow tree...sure he can look wimpy and all limp but when the wind blows he knows how to give to survive
 
No, he isn't a weak character Sky..... But you are looking at him through different eyes to many of the fans. They PERCEIVE him as weak, based on the fact that the other three on the team are strong warrior types... they appear to have difficulty perceiving him any other way. In fact he has his own strengths which make him every bit as tough as the others.... but display themselves in a different way.

I don't think he's a weak character at all.... he wasn't in the film and he isn't in the series. So imagine my shock and surprise when I got to fandom (as recently as last December!) and discovered a whole group of people who thought he was and who regularly whumped him in fics and treated him like a pretty little pet. To me, he was the guy with a lot of knowledge and someone who the team could rely heavily on for that knowledge. Just as Teal'c seemed an ideal addition because of all his years living with the Goa'uld. But somewhere along the line, Daniel turned into a weird sort of character...wimpish one minute and on a couple of occasions downright nasty... And Teal'c of course has turned into the silent minority.

But I still firmly believe that the whumping desire has come from the perception of the writers and fans that Daniel is a wimp. But the thought never occurred to me until I started traversing the forums and lists.

:cool:
 
Daniel...

You've read some of my work and you still talk to me? Cool! :rolly2: {I'm very good at slamming my own wrok, so just ignore me. I'm glad you found some enjoyment there.}

Daniel as a wimp is pretty much a 'fannon' thing, not 'canon'.

And I can't agree more with the both of you. We're talking a man who's pretty much spent a large chunk of his life roaming the third world countries, learning their cultures and how to survive in them. You don't come out of that environment totally helpless.

Spader played the character with a hard undercore. His interaction with Ra where he's handed the staff weapon, his movements, showed he had a basic understanding of weapons and their uses. Michael Shanks did not bring a 'no guns' stance to the character, more of a 'let's not shoot first, Hum?' posture. 'Fannon' wrote him as scared of weapons, etc.

IMHO, large amounts of fannon suck.

I spent a month in Israel last year at an excavation [joint: York Uni. at Toronto, CA and Bar Ilan Univ, Tel Aviv]. Every day you saw folks wandering around with M-16's, Uzi's, etc - both Israeli and Arabic. Our team was briefed on what to do in case of a 'situation'. {The Israeli staff knew I had been a medic in the Gulf - I ended up being 'site medic' for it. I was asked what sort of weapon I could handle and when I told them 'just about anything', was given the assignment of herding the students and volunteers down to a couple of limestone caves and hiding out until the 'all clear'. No one made a big deal about it. I didn't think twice about it. If it happened, it would just have to be done}.

There are some areas in the world where I'm not all that interested in doing arch/anthro as I don't have a feel for the politics and necessary 'bribe/graft' policies. It's a fact of life on some digs.

So, there's no way a man with DJ's background is so far out in left field. Now, when he first came to the SGC I can see him being quiet and staying in the background until he finds his 'place' and some folk might want to see that as shy and disfunctional. Their loss. They're missing out on a full bodied character.
 
Moving...

I'm sure JD could, by I'm curious why you think we're off topic here?

{I'd move it, but I'm not this thread's mod....}
 
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