a lot to comment on...
Originally posted by Morrigan
Hey, they mentioned me, and I haven't been here in forever!
Um, okay. You need to specify. Stronger fighter, character, family man?
The strongest fighter is Gokou (heaven fobid I utter those words!). He has a natural ability that gives him an advantage over Bejita no Ouji. Vegeta makes up for this in determination, however. No matter how strong Gokou got with his natural talent, Vegeta paced him, never being too far behind.fights Vegeta does come to terms that he will always be weaker (strength-wise) than Gokou in the Buu Saga, before his noble sacrifice. It doesn't stop him from training and becoming stronger, but at least he stopped trying to reach the unattainable.
I agree with everything there, other than saying that Vegeta was never far behind. Goku was staying leaps and bounds beyond Vegeta as early as landing on Namek. Vegeta did catch up and surpass every now and then, but was greatly outclassed soon.
The strongest character is DEFINATELY Vegeta. I get sick of people saying, "GOKU! He's stronger!" His strength has NOTHING to do with his character. Look at Vegeta's background. As a child, he was sent into slavery at the behest of his own father to Frieza. Not only that, but he also watched the destruction Begita-sei at the same hands he was sold into to. This is an assumption on my part (if anyone can give me canonical proof or tell me I am wrong, do so), but I think Vegeta was severly abused mentally and physically by Frieza and his men. He is the Saiya-jin no Ouji, yet he gets treated like a third class baka by all those around him. He spends his lifetime destroying worlds to sell to the highest bidder. He has seen and done MANY reprehensiable things, but even after all that, he could turn out "okay." He may not be Gokou prisitine, but he did a damn good job TRYING.
Vegeta never knew Freezer blew up his planet. It wasn't untill Dodoria told him on Namek that he found out.
Vegetta was never trying to be good. He only ever did what he thought would make him stronger, and that just happened to lead him to reforming.
Who is the better family man? This one is also Vegeta. Before you argue, just think. Gokou cares more for fighting and training then he does for his family. As soon as a chance appears for him to train under a new master, he takes it. Does he care that he leaves ChiChi and Gohan alone with no means of support (does he even HAVE a means of procurring zeni)? He dies, several times, leaving ChiChi in an even MORE single mother type situation.
This is wrong, because if you recall, Goku's only masters were Roshi and Kaiosama. He trained under Roshi before he had a family, and he only went to Kaiosama after he was already dead.
That brings me to another point. Goku is only ever away from his family three times in the series. 1)when he dies, 2)when he is traveling through space, and 3)when he dies again. 1 and 3 happen when he dies protecting his family, and 2 happens when he is on his way to save his friends and family. Everything else concerning his training is him prepairing himself so that his friends and family do not die.
...also, Vegeta never gave a damn about Trunks or Bulma untill the very end of the Cell saga, and still spent the majority of his time training.
Let's refer back to the "missing episode" where ChiChi insists Gokou get a license and a car. She 'may' have been harsh, but she had perfectly good reasons. Gokou requires pound upon pound of food per sitting (especially after a training session), yet he doesn't provide ChiChi a means of transporting it home. He expects her to carry many pounds of food home, through the wilds, just so she can feed him, none the less Gohan. The least he could do was help her by going along and carrying the stuff home. Oh, and let's get into the money arguement again. HOW does ChiChi afford food when Gokou doesn't even have a job?!
First of all, how is that a "missing" ep?
Secondly, we see Chi Chi driving her own car in the Saya-jin saga. She
can drive and
does have a car.
Third, Goku won a hell of a lot of zeni at the end of DB, in the Budokia.
Now, for the absentee father bit. Gokou goes off to fight all the "good fights" never giving a second thought to the old woman and brat kid at home. He never considers the fact that he may die and leave them without. I can understand the "dire need" situations like Raditzu, Cell, and the Androids, but Frieza on Namek? He TRAVELLED to another PLANET to fight!
And what would happen if Goku didn't go off and fight? Since most of DBZ takes place on earth, and rarely does a fight happen that doesn't require Goku in some capacity to win, his wife and child qould have died anyway, along with the rest of teh world.
...and about the fight on Namek? This is the second time you've overlooked this point:
His son was ON NAMEK. That's the entire reason why he went.
kay, and now, the real kicker. After the Cell fight, Gokou opts, OPTS, to stay dead. Does he have ANY feelings for his family? He leaves them! Not just for the jaunt to go and train or battle a villain, but DEAD, as in FOREVER! He didn't even know his own wife was with his child. He might have, if he spent any time at home. If it wasn't for the stunning resemblance of Goten to Gokou, I would question his parentage. Now, when Gokou is allowed to return to Earth for the Martial Arts Tournament, he would rather eat and be with his friends than be with his wife, and sons (one of who he never met, and the child was seven years old!). That makes me wonder about his priorities.
Radiz came to earth to find Goku. That bout atracted Vegeta and Napa.
All of the AH and Cyborge(aka Androids in the dub)were built to kill Goku.
Cell was generated for teh same reason as the Androids.
Freezer and Kold came to earth to get revenge on Goku.
...Goku honestly believed that he atracted trouble to earth(and with good reason, IMO). Nieve as he is, Goku honestly believed that if he satyed dead, no more hostiles would torment the earth looking for him.
As for his day back, Gohan was also participating in the Budokia, as was Goten. Chi Chi was there as well, and I for one don't think that the fights would last the entire day.
Now, don't get me wrong, Vegeta will NEVER win Father of the Year, but at least he acknowledges his children, his wife, and all that. Argue as you may about his stunning disdain for Trunks as a youth before the Androids, and as Mirai trunks in the Cell Saga, and I will point out the seeds of change. First, didja notice how INSANE Vegeta went when Cell knocked Mirai Trunks out dead? Didja hear his laments and promises of destruction? I'll raise you the Buu Saga's stunning scene. It may have taken him a while, but Vegeta breaks down his cold exterior and says he is sorry for the way he has neglected his son and wife. trunks doesn't understand him, which shows that Vegeta possibly wasn't so cruel as he lets on he was to his family.
The Funi dub has Vegeta say he lashes out at Cell because he loves his son. The origional version, as well as the manga, has Vegeta lash out at Cell like that because Vegeta is just so damn furious with himself for improving so much and still being too weak.
You said it yourself, Vegeta neglected his "family".
He may not have to work, as Bulma is inherently rich, but he does do his bit. He, erm, 'watches' the kids. He obviously trains with Trunks, and he must do something with Bra since she is so adoringly attactched to him. He has Goten around all the time, since he and Trunks are best friends. He is basically more a father figure to Goten than his own father is.
The only reason Goku isn't around as much is that he died. Why does Goku die? He dies protecting his kids!
Oh, I just recalled this bit. Think back to Namek. Gokou just got out of the regenration tank. Kuririn is dead, Gohan is seriously wounded. Gokou tells Frieza he is going to kill him for killing his friend. What? he is more mad over the fact that his friend is dead that the fact that his son is almost there himself?
Gohan could still be saved, but Kuririn was just plane gone.
