Freys - Vengeance or Mercy?

[Funky Cthulu]

Hi All,
I have just registered with this forum but have been reading the posts for some time with great interest. I am on my third reading of the series (still missed plenty of info the first and second time around), and have been pondering a particular idea for a little while. Which is:

If you were the ruler (or Dany, or Jon or Stannis or whomever you like) and peace had come to the seven kingdoms, how would you deal with the Frey's treachery? In this particular scenario, lets presume the Lannisters' have been ousted, a Stark restored to their seat in Winterfell and all Houses have sworn loyalty to one ruler (some rather reluctantly, of course). The Starks will be asking for justice, the Freys (assuming old man Walder is still alive) defending their actions as sanctioned by the then-ruling Lannisters.
To complicate the issue, a general amnesty has been given to those who have sworn loyalty to you (or Dany or whoever) but you still have power to prosecute those who committed particularly heinour war crimes (eg, Gregor Clegane).
Would you have justice? Vengeance? Win the Frey's loyalty forever with a pardon and thus antagonise the admittedly weaker Starks? Keeping in mind that if you destroy house of Frey forever, you may weaken the loyalty of the other Houses who assisted the Lannisters and have broken a few oaths themselves along the way...? And what do you think GRRM has in store for them?
I have a few ideas myself but I'll leave the floor open to you guys..can't wait to hear some thoughts!
Cheers,
Funky Cthulu.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Nice question F.C.

Yes, I think it will depend first of all on who ends up on the throne. Thats key.

I have this bad feeling that the Frey's wont see the kind of justice I would like them to see. Theyve made their way so far by changing with the direction of the wind. I think that will continue. People like the Frey's in real life have a way of thriving. That would be just the kind of thing GRRM would do too, having a new Walder on the throne chuckling.

Hopefully Im wrong and the Twins will melt like Harrenhall from dragonfire

What could well possibly happen is civil war once Old Walder passes on as the heirs fight for power amongst one another. Ive read a lot of posts that speculate just this outcome.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Yes, sadly disgusting old Walder will probably pass away before he can be eaten by a dragon. It seems the other houses hold them in general disdain for breaking the sacred guest rule, so I guess that will stick.

 

[genisis2]

Welcome to chronicles FC.
Great name.
Good question. Really what can you do to the old bugger. Its as you say the entire house of Frey will live with the stigma because of one mans decision. I almost believe that GRRM has set unCat as their punishment.

 

[Wil]

Greetings FC.

I think that GM will kill off all the Freys that could be directly blamed for the red wedding, leaving those who can carry on without having to be punished by Dae (although I admit its very possible old man Frey will outlive everyone, totally dismissing my arguments).

I don't dislike the Freys as much as others seem to. Westeros is a tough world, where failure is met by death for you and your family. While most of the Freys have been sniveling, sadistic and selfish, etc., at least they don't play at being nice then justify their cruel behavior using false-excuses such as "honor" and "oaths sworn to other". They're nasty and tough, and make no appologies for it. They do what ever they have to in order to protect themselves and win.

Except for the red wedding (which I realize is a biggy) they're no more horrible or immoral than most of the other great houses have been. And as for the horror of the red wedding, I saw it being fair payback for a personal insult to the Freys, as Cat explained to her son.

I liked Rob a great deal up to his marrying Jeyne. While I understand the arguments of love and honor, I felt he should have put the lives of his men, his allies, the North and the Riverlands above his need to satisfy his love or "sense of honor." His first duty was to the lives he was responsible for, not to his own feelings. His father understood this. Ned could have called off his wedding with Cat and married the one he fell in love with but he didn't (although she may have killed herself before he had a chance to, I don't know).

Any way, I know some of the Freys must pay, but I'm sure it won't be too many or too much. Such is the way in life.

 

[TK-421]

All very good points Wil. I agree with many, however, my disdain for the Freys runs as deep as most of the others. The infighting once the old man kicks the bucket will greatly affect House Frey's strength and the Lannisters have somewhat set themselves up to be caught in the middle. Especially with the holding of Riverrun and whatever other deals Tywin may have made.

Few would actually bring justice upon the Freys. Dany might depending on alliances and advisers, Tyrion may as well, and the remaining Starks: Sansa, Bran and Arya would definetly. Arya most of all would seek out a different type of vengeance.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

If I were the ruler, what would I do with the Freys? Easy.

I'd execute any who broke the laws of hospitality. All other male Freys except the youngest and most innocent would be sent to the Wall (there are enough of them to strengthen it!) at different posts. The females would be married off into lesser families. Essentially, I'd breed them out. The youngest and most innocent would be given a small estate at the Twins and would be fostered with a good family. The Twins would be ruled by one of my retainers until a second son of either Stark or Tully blood had reached a good age to take over the reins.

 

[Wil]

...Arya most of all would seek out a different type of vengeance.

This is the one I'm most anticipating. I like what's been going on with Arya. All the lessons on being aware and really seeing (which leads to reasoning and cunning) are going to make her an incredible force to be reckoned (spelling?) with. She's going to be doing a lot of killing and vengeance taking, and I can't wait.

I look forward to that as much as to the confrontations to come with the Others.

It would be cool if she ended up marrying a Frey after all, (who through in-fighting and inheritance-seeking ended up becoming Lord Frey) then killed him once she secured an hier. Now THAT! would be a twist to remember! The wolves ruling the North, the Riverlands and the World! (once John marries Dae).

 

[Wil]

Not a fan of Freys I take it, Arya?

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Excellent reply Arya Underfoot, that was close to my feelings. I feel sorry for the younger Freys who are innocent and knew nothing or could do nothing about the Red Wedding, so in the interest of warning off anyone else from such treachery, I'd apportion the greater part of their incomes and lands to the Starks and Tullys,maybe 25% to the Tullys, 50% to the Starks and the Freys could have the remaining 25%. Then as you said, send a greater part of the men to the Wall and send the heirs in line (who would be young at this stage as it seems all the older men had a hand in the wedding slaughter) to be fostered to Starks and Tullys who would need to swear to treat them honourably and well and not treat them differently due to their parents crimes. So the Freys would be stewards (like the Stewards of Gondor in LOTR) to the 2 houses and have a chance in a few generations to win back some self respect and independence. Thus heal the rift in time but make it clear that the Freys would no longer be the great house they were. As for what to do to the guilty ones.....oh, so many possibilities! I don't think of myself as a sadist, but I'd love to horribly torture Lord Frey - and eventually feed him to a dragon!
Speaking of which (mini thread) - does anyone know if the Targaryens made a habit of feeding people to their pets?
Ye gods, can you imagine a whole troop of Freys arriving at the Wall? The Others would be driven off the sheer force of their whining! Maybe they could invite the Head Other to a banquet and slaughter HIM?

 

[Funky Cthulu]

This is the one I'm most anticipating. I like what's been going on with Arya. All the lessons on being aware and really seeing (which leads to reasoning and cunning) are going to make her an incredible force to be reckoned (spelling?) with. She's going to be doing a lot of killing and vengeance taking, and I can't wait.

I look forward to that as much as to the confrontations to come with the Others.

It would be cool if she ended up marrying a Frey after all, (who through in-fighting and inheritance-seeking ended up becoming Lord Frey) then killed him once she secured an hier. Now THAT! would be a twist to remember! The wolves ruling the North, the Riverlands and the World! (once John marries Dae).

I feel a bit sorry for her tho. I hope she doesn't lose who she is in the midst of becoming a killing machine for the Many Faced God. But she seems to be sticking to who she is deep down inside. Do you think she really killed Dareon? That seems a bit..psychopathic..for a 10 year old girl. If she keeps going that way, she'll forget about just killing those who hurt her (and her family) and just kill for the sheer pleasure. Which makes her not a lot better than Cersei, really.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

I feel a bit sorry for her tho. I hope she doesn't lose who she is in the midst of becoming a killing machine for the Many Faced God. But she seems to be sticking to who she is deep down inside. Do you think she really killed Dareon? That seems a bit..psychopathic..for a 10 year old girl. If she keeps going that way, she'll forget about just killing those who hurt her (and her family) and just kill for the sheer pleasure. Which makes her not a lot better than Cersei, really.

Well, I saw the killing as something very closely related to her family. By that I mean, her father was always a friend of the night's watch and her brother Jon and Uncle Benjen both swore vows, giving their futures over to the brotherhood. To her, I have to imagine, the vows are very dear and true, and the Night's Watch something sacred. The very first scene we see a Stark is Eddard, Bran, Jon & Robb at the execution of the deserter. The Starks and the NW are closely entwined.
I dont think it was for pleasure, but some sort of statement about who she is and what she believes. A reaffimation of herself, not unlike the way she hid needle.
Just my thoughts!

 

[Wil]

I feel a bit sorry for her tho. I hope she doesn't lose who she is in the midst of becoming a killing machine for the Many Faced God. But she seems to be sticking to who she is deep down inside. Do you think she really killed Dareon? That seems a bit..psychopathic..for a 10 year old girl. If she keeps going that way, she'll forget about just killing those who hurt her (and her family) and just kill for the sheer pleasure. Which makes her not a lot better than Cersei, really.

Good point, serving "justice" at 10 years old is "a bit" psychopathic. I do want to reiterate though that this is a very violent world, and eventually everyone seems to lose their "innocence," "compasion," "humanity?" I don't know the right word right now. But given a choice between between weakness and death, and coldness and life, I'd go with the latter. I haven't thought it over carefully but it seems that the others have been trying to keep their innocence and it's getting them killed or abused.

I do think though, as you said, that GM is suggesting that she is keeping a "core" of her original values, and that she may not be a complete assassin for the Many Face God.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Not a fan of Freys I take it, Arya?

Ummm, not so much. Although I think some of them, like Roslyn, are just innocent bystanders.

Arya killed Dareon because that's what Starks are taught- that deserters must be killed. That was a lot less psychopathic than the weasel soup incident.

 

[Crisspin]

Good point, serving "justice" at 10 years old is "a bit" psychopathic.

Seems like one of the reasons that the next book is supposed to advance a few years into the future. Maturation of characters like Arya and Danny specifically.

 

[Boaz]

FC, AU, good thoughts here.

Reiterating many... it depends upon which family wins out. But the Freys, win or lose, have cast their lot with the Lannisters. No one will trust them a bit.

Going with FC's first propostition, a Stark in Winterfell will demand blood. Dany, seeing herself as a paragon of justice, will send all Freys involved in the murders to her justice. "Excuse me, Drogon, did you want Freys with that?"

If Euron wins, I doubt he'd care about justice for the Starks. In fact, I expect he'd ask the Freys to plan Asha's or Victarion's weddings for him.

If Stannis wins, he'd kill every Frey who even looked guilty... right after he commended them for killing Robb Stark the rebel.

If the Tyrells, Martells, Jaime, Kevan, or Littlefinger somehow win, then they'll give the Starks the same type of justice that Tywin gave the Martells. "Sorry, the guilty parties are all dead... here are their undistinguishable heads on sticks. Better luck next time."

Only Cersei would openly deny that any real wrongdoing occured. She might march one or two to the Wall... but it would be plain to the entire realm that she will reward those who kill for her and her brood.

If the Starks or a Stark coalition (Jon and Dany, Jon and Sansa, Jon and Stannis, Bran and Stan, Rickon and Stannis, Sansa and Petyr, Bran and Dany, Stoneheart, etc.) wins, then all Freys should immediately run for their lives. I doubt that Sansa, Jon, or Rickon will leave any male Lannisters, Boltons, or Freys over the age of three alive.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Going with FC's first propostition, a Stark in Winterfell will demand blood. Dany, seeing herself as a paragon of justice, will send all Freys involved in the murders to her justice. "Excuse me, Drogon, did you want Freys with that?"

If Euron wins, I doubt he'd care about justice for the Starks. In fact, I expect he'd ask the Freys to plan Asha's or Victarion's weddings for him.

If Stannis wins, he'd kill every Frey who even looked guilty... right after he commended them for killing Robb Stark the rebel.

Excellent work in summation Boaz....but a couple caveats....

First in proper fast food parlance it would "You want Freys with that?" Notice how its a statement and not a question...by the way funniest line Ive read here in a while....

Second: Excellent point on Stannis....but I think no one else would actually "raze the Freys" so to speak, even Dany. Remember the line of Tywin to Joff "When an enemy bends the knee and accepts the Kings peace you must help him up, elsewise no one else will bend the knee." Politics and compromise are such a big part of this series that I just dont see it happening. If a Stark or Stannis win out, if Im a Frey I never ever ever surrender. Of course I actually think Jon would pardon em as part of a consensus peacemaking deal.

I get the part about the crime being a crime unto men and gods but I just dont see it...maybe Dany demands some of the participants head north to the wall and leave the lands with a steward until one of the younger Freys comes to power, but no heads will roll.

Just my opinion....personally I boil em all like bad mutton, root and branch...but thats just me.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Actually, maybe I'd give the Late Lord Frey a nice heart attack as he watched all of his male offspring be castrated. Muah-ha-ha-ha-ha.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

hah! Just try to jump out at him as he comes around corners.
A couple of good "boo's!" oughta do it.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

hah! Just try to jump out at him as he comes around corners.
A couple of good "boo's!" oughta do it.

Yeah, but I want him to be in mental anguish as he dies.

"Heh... Oh no! My empire is a wasteland! Heh, heh... all those years of being a dirty old man, wasted! Heh."

You know, since he prides himself so much on his virility and all, seeing the "manhood" of his family being destroyed would kill him.

Take that you lousy Frey!