Freys - Vengeance or Mercy?

[the smiling weirwood]

I don't think the other houses would care much if House Frey were obliterated. My impression was that the Freys are despised for being upstarts more than for being heinous cretins.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Ummm, not so much. Although I think some of them, like Roslyn, are just innocent bystanders.

Arya killed Dareon because that's what Starks are taught- that deserters must be killed. That was a lot less psychopathic than the weasel soup incident.

True, true. I hadn't even considered that, but am about to read that bit again so will look for clues.
Now I think about it - I was talking to my mother, who has been studying and working with pre school (2- 8 yr olds) children for about 30 years and asked her what she thought and her advice was children growing up take a long time to see other people as they do themselves - It needs to be demonstrated to them quite a bit that when you cut someone, it really hurts - just like it hurts when they themselves get cut. And that other people feel emotions like they (the children) do - when you call them names, you need to say to the child - "How does it make YOU feel to be called a *******? And how do you think you can now make up for that and make that person feel better?" And until the kiddies do that a few times, they literally don't learn to empathise - the point needs to be hammered home that other people are just like them.
So if a child never really learns that and the people around her treat others as objects to be used and discarded, the child can grow up and into the sociopathic mindset that they are the only ones who really exist, and really feel pain. (Does anyone remember the psychopathic boy from IT who got eaten by leeches? He thought that other people only existed because he believed in them)
A pretty obvious point, I know, but I think its interesting to consider whether Arya will grow up without a sense of mercy - she certainly hasn't demonstrated one so far. She hasn't had much of a chance, I know, but I see her turning into a tragic bad guy character - she may grow to not care who she kills (like the Hound striking down women and children) because she'll only consider herself and her family to matter. Probably not an unusual mindset for the time, but rather a tragedy for a Stark because eventually she'll get killed by a genuinely good character(maybe). Just some food for thought.Hope it made sense.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Yeah, but I want him to be in mental anguish as he dies.

"Heh... Oh no! My empire is a wasteland! Heh, heh... all those years of being a dirty old man, wasted! Heh."

You know, since he prides himself so much on his virility and all, seeing the "manhood" of his family being destroyed would kill him.

Take that you lousy Frey!

Love it! That would totally destroy that disgusting creature. Oh, and to see the Starks take all his land.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Personally, I saw the killing of Dearon to be a reassuring act. Up until then I was worried that she may indeed be losing herself, and losing touch with who she is. That was definitely a "what would daddy do?" moment. The fact she killed him shows she's still a Stark.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

And still one badass ten year old.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

A pretty obvious point, I know, but I think its interesting to consider whether Arya will grow up without a sense of mercy - she certainly hasn't demonstrated one so far.

I think she has some sense of mercy. After all, she hated the Hound and could have killed him, but she didn't. If she was vengeful to the extreme, she would have slit his throat and had done with it.

Who knows why she killed Dareon? Did she do it because she's a crazy, bloodthirsty little girl? Or did she see his betrayal of the NW as a reflection of her self-betrayal, and lash out at him? I think we'll find out eventually. For now, though, I'm glad he died. He bothered me. Actually, I'll side with Edmure Tully, and ask that all minstrels be kept in the distance, thank you.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Just so.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Minstrels as a whole dont seem to fare very well in Westeros....

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Well, they're a fairly smarmy lot- althought it seems to be a running joke that they'll sleep with anything that has a pulse
I did feel sorry for the Blue Bard though. And yes, Dareon totally deserved what he got.

 

[Wil]

Hey, hey hey...hey.. hey, hey hey!! I wouldn't say Dareon diserved it. Yes, he broke his oath. Yes, the penalty is death. But I truely believe he was framed for rape, and he was forced to take that oath (go to the wall or die/rot in prison). While I enjoyed reading about Arya executing "justice," I felt bad for Dareon. The wall was no better than prison to him.

I think of it this way, if I'd been unjustly "imprissoned" and sent to a chain-gang because of the lie of a noble woman, and I had a chance to escape and spend the rest of my life singing, drinking and partying, I'd do it in a heart beat. I believe most people would.

So let's enjoy the story, but let's be fair to poor Dareon.

 

[Wil]

That being said, Arya is still a bitchin-cool little "justice-dealer."

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Hey, hey hey...hey.. hey, hey hey!! I wouldn't say Dareon diserved it. Yes, he broke his oath. Yes, the penalty is death. But I truely believe he was framed for rape, and he was forced to take that oath (go to the wall or die/rot in prison). While I enjoyed reading about Arya executing "justice," I felt bad for Dareon. The wall was no better than prison to him.

Nobody forced him to swear an oath. And certainly nobody forced him to decide not to keep it in his pants in the first place.

 

[Wil]

Nobody forced him to swear an oath. And certainly nobody forced him to decide not to keep it in his pants in the first place.

"Join the military (wall) or die!" most people would swear (and do swear under similar circumstances in many parts of the world). And when you're falsely accused and are threatened with death with no other options, yes it's being forced.

As for "keeping in his pants," She invited him, he said yes; nature at work. Perfectly natural. For all we know, in GM's subconscious was the thought that the spoiled-brat noble girl set him up. (All this based completely on Dareon's declaration of unfairness and innocence to Sam. It could be a lie and he could have forced himself on her in which case he got what he deserved.).

No, Dareon should be pittied. His death was necessary to enhance our enjoyment (and understanding) of the character Arya, but he still should be pittied.

 

[Boaz]

Well, Dareon is a proven liar. But to invade the bedroom of the Lord's daughter for midnight rapine would have been the height of stupidity.

Yet Dareon was stupid enough to go with this girl in her father's own house... that is just asking for trouble. If you try and rob someone at their residence in present day Colorado, the homeowner is within his rights to defend his person, his family, and his property with lethal force. Dareon admitted he did not go in by the front door, therefore he's a thief. He is taking the virginity, well at least a few liberties, of the girl without permission. The Lord would have been within his rights to send him right back out the window in my book.

Dareon made his own bed, so to speak, so let him sleep in it.

 

[Wil]

No, no. I can't agree with you.

I will pitty the loving, care-free, virile, young lad.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

He was an idiot and a jackass dead-beat regardless of whether he raped someone or not.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

He was an idiot and a jackass dead-beat regardless of whether he raped someone or not.

Thank you.

See, I don't really pity him because regardless of the circumstances of his crime or his oath-swearing, he did it. He doesn't have to like it. But a better man would learn to live with it. Sam, for example, would probably be a much happier man if he ran off and lived a life of comfortable sloth somewhere. But unlike Dareon he recognizes that social responsibility comes before any baser instincts.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

No, no. I can't agree with you.

I will pitty the loving, care-free, virile, young lad.

I don't. And why? Not because he deserted the NW, but because he deserted Sam and Aemon and Gilly. He was earning money from singing and was living a comfortable life - he knew Aemon was dying by inches in a cold, slovenly room and Sam and Gilly would soon be on the streets and Dareon just shrugged and said "I don't care - I'd rather go off and get laid".

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Hey...Im in agreement with most people here....wait a sec while I mark this down.....wheres my pen? Its somewhere...hold on, wait....whats today? Oh, geez which timezone do I mark it down in? Acch not worth it, easier just to disagree.

We have a saying in my community, "A mans true character is best revealed when he believes no one is watching"....(we also say "Not in the face!" but I digress....)

Dareon showed his true colors as oathbreaker, liar, and by callously dismissing Aemon to die. I doubt he is as innocent as he claimed (doncha know? according to prisoners, everyone is innocent, got framed, etc). The penalty for oathbreaking is death.


<--Waiting paitently with counter-arguments at the ready for the inevitable "Jon is an oathbreaker too" comeback.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Hey...Im in agreement with most people here....wait a sec while I mark this down.....wheres my pen? Its somewhere...hold on, wait....whats today? Oh, geez which timezone do I mark it down in? Acch not worth it, easier just to disagree.

We have a saying in my community, "A mans true character is best revealed when he believes no one is watching"....(we also say "Not in the face!" but I digress....)

Dareon showed his true colors as oathbreaker, liar, and by callously dismissing Aemon to die. I doubt he is as innocent as he claimed (doncha know? according to prisoners, everyone is innocent, got framed, etc). The penalty for oathbreaking is death.


<--Waiting paitently with counter-arguments at the ready for the inevitable "Jon is an oathbreaker too" comeback.

I wonder - did he really break his oaths in essence? I don't have a firm opinion on it either way, but as I recall the oath states that he must "take no woman to wife, father no children". Well, he fathered no children (perhaps not for lack of trying) and he did not marry Ygritte - in the legal sense, they were really lovers - I don't think she viewed him as a husband, with an obligation to be with her for life, etc. Because I don't think the other Watch men broke their oaths by sleeping with whores - they weren't fathering kids (to the best of their knowledge) and they certainly weren't marrying them.
Any thoughts?