Freys - Vengeance or Mercy?

[Wil]

I wonder - did he really break his oaths in essence?... the oath states that he must "take no woman to wife, father no children... I don't think the other Watch men broke their oaths by sleeping with whores - they weren't fathering kids (to the best of their knowledge) and they certainly weren't marrying them.
Any thoughts?

I've thought this myself. If they wanted a "no sex clause" in the oath they should have stated it explicitly. As it is, they left a loop-hole, which the men have exploited (happily).

As for Dareon, I see I stand alone so I will just pitty him and drink to him on my own. To the misunderstood bards of the world.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I wonder - did he really break his oaths in essence? I don't have a firm opinion on it either way, but as I recall the oath states that he must "take no woman to wife, father no children". Well, he fathered no children (perhaps not for lack of trying) and he did not marry Ygritte - in the legal sense, they were really lovers - I don't think she viewed him as a husband, with an obligation to be with her for life, etc. Because I don't think the other Watch men broke their oaths by sleeping with whores - they weren't fathering kids (to the best of their knowledge) and they certainly weren't marrying them.
Any thoughts?

Good thoughts....but Ive always held that sometimes you have to break the lesser part of your oath to serve the greater. In Jons case, defense of the wall is paramount, his personal honor is chaff before that awesome responsibility. Just because its an enjoyable act doesnt really factor in. Whats the line from XXX (horrible movie I know..) "Oh the things Im going to do for my country"

Most people point to Jons fleeing the Nights Watch at first as a breaking of his oath as well. I tell you, someone always runs, and someone always goes and gets him. Its just the way of it...even in modern times more often than not its your peers that stop from leaving the military. Eventually though you become loyal, not to the oath you spoke, but to the man standing beside you. He's the reason you dont forsake your word, not some hollow promise you made in the glory of foolish youth. Jons defense of the wall after Donal Noyes passing was just that, loyalty to the boys and men who would standfast in their duty. Regardless of consequences its the man that makes the service, not the service that makes the man.

 

[Boaz]

Winter's Sorrow just posted this on the Robb's Heir thread.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins.It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

Oaths don't have to cover every detail do they?

Then they should have made Jon swear this oath, "I promise not to disobey my Master of Arms. I promise not to get in fights with other recruits. I promise not to sic my wolf on other recruits in the middle of the night. I promise not to get involved in the politics of advancement and selection of members in the Night's Watch. I promise to not attempt to murder the Master of Arms. I promise not to desert in the dead of night. I promise not to disobey the lead Ranger by not killing Wildlings that I'm ordered to... twice. I promise not to kill the lead Ranger during my first Ranging. I promise not to go over to the enemy, even if he used to be a Ranger. I promise not to lead Wildlings over the Wall. I promise not to give our castles away to any lord, even if he is the rightful heir. I promise not to send 120 year old men on six month sea voyages in the middle of winter."

And Walder this one, "I swear not to order my hundreds of sons, bastards, grandsons, great-grandsons, and great-great-grandsons to murder my King in my own house."

Some actions are assumed with the oath.

 

[TK-421]

If you try and rob someone at their residence in present day Colorado, the homeowner is within his rights to defend his person, his family, and his property with lethal force.

Wasn't there a documentary about Colorado, guns and the culture of fear....I seem to remember that great humanitarian Charlton Hesston having a role...

I see Charlton (maybe a younger one) playing Stannis in a movie version of ASOIF.

 

[TK-421]

Eventually though you become loyal, not to the oath you spoke, but to the man standing beside you.

Sorry for the double post.

I seem to recall that in Lord of the Rings, Frodo also does not abandon his quest to get the ring to safety (and eventually to Mordor) because of his friends. I will always remember that chapter in the Fellowship of the Ring (there's a reason it's called the "Fellowship") when Samwise, Meriadoc and Peregrin all tell Frodo that they are coming with him and he is overcome with joy...Sadly it was omitted from the movie (however the movies did an awesome job of focusing on the friendship between the different characters).

I just saw a paralel there. If I'm out to lunch, don't hesitate to say so. It wouldn't be the first time.

But back to the topic of the Freys. In the end, Arya will hopefully make them all pay dearly.

 

[Wil]

I see Charlton (maybe a younger one) playing Stannis in a movie version of ASOIF.

I see Brian Blessed playing Robert Barratheon (IMDB.com for those who don't know him).

 

[Wil]

and I can't wait to see the Freys become the new Lannisters, once the Lion's are all castrated and killed.

 

[Wil]

(sorry about the triple post)

 

[Funky Cthulu]

and I can't wait to see the Freys become the new Lannisters, once the Lion's are all castrated and killed.

EWWW! Atleast the Lannisters are (mostly) attractive and charismatic. Y'know, the ones you love to hate. I just get a sense of disgust when reading about the Freys - kind of like touching a cockroach.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

The Frey upstarts must be brought to ruin!

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

EWWW! Atleast the Lannisters are (mostly) attractive and charismatic. Y'know, the ones you love to hate. I just get a sense of disgust when reading about the Freys - kind of like touching a cockroach.

Beyond the benefits of good looks and schmoozing abilities, at least the Lannisters have a sense of loyalty towards their family members.

 

[TK-421]

Except when you're a noseless dwarf.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Except when you're a noseless dwarf.

Who had to watch his wife whored out to a platoon of soldiers.

 

[Wil]

Except when you're a noseless dwarf.

Touche! No one is better than the Freys! The others just hide it better!
All Hail, The Cockroaches for Kings! (joking, people, joking. Please no angry responses)

 

[genisis2]

EWWW! Atleast the Lannisters are (mostly) attractive and charismatic. Y'know, the ones you love to hate. I just get a sense of disgust when reading about the Freys - kind of like touching a cockroach.

You dont get a sense of disgust when ever Jaime and Cersie are together Especially in AGoT.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

You dont get a sense of disgust when ever Jaime and Cersie are together Especially in AGoT.

Um, no, not really. OK, so its incest, but atleast its consensual and unpressured. Compared to the awful rape scenes and non consensual marriages all over the place, their relationship is not so bad. I'm not a fan of incest, but I don't think it automatically makes them evil. If you compare J + C's relationship with Crasters and Gilly's, they are very different.
Or not? Look forward to some interesting replies!

 

[Wil]

So hurting and plotting against your enemies is wrong (Freys), but didling your sister is fine...
Interesting...

So Arya shouldn't ruthlessly avenge her family, but it's o.k. if she takes care of Bran from time to time?
Interesting...


I have to say again I think the Freys are getting unjustly labeled. They are no worse than any other family. In fact many of them died valiantly and honorably fighting for Rob. The only difference is that they don't hide it or cover it up as well as the others do.

I guess if they were a little prettier and better decivers, we'd all sherish them.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

So hurting and plotting against your enemies is wrong (Freys), but didling your sister is fine...
Interesting...

So Arya shouldn't ruthlessly avenge her family, but it's o.k. if she takes care of Bran from time to time?
Interesting...


I have to say again I think the Freys are getting unjustly labeled. They are no worse than any other family. In fact many of them died valiantly and honorably fighting for Rob. The only difference is that they don't hide it or cover it up as well as the others do.

I guess if they were a little prettier and better decivers, we'd all sherish them.

Thats what I love about this forum, the spirited (and respectful) debate...

Ok, well the way I see it (if anyone is interested) is that while I would have serious concerns about how truly healthy J + C's r'ship is(and indeed, if any incestuous r'ship can ever be a healthy thing), I am an atheist, so sin is neither here nor there to me. So, on a pragmatic level, J + C weren't hurting anyone for most of their lives together - until Jaime threw Bran out the window. A pretty major act, I agree, and thats a good indicator of an unhealthy relationship - being willing to kill small children to stay together.

So, no, I don't have a problem with their relationship - but Wil, they ARE only fictional characters! I don't see incest as a normal OR healthy thing - but I find both these characters intriguing and complex - I enjoy the way GRRM explores repulsive and sympathetic traits in them. It all goes to the making of a great piece of fiction - honestly, would you rather see GRRM cut the incest bits out? Confronting as they are, don't they add to the story rather than detract from them? (and I do NOT mean in a titillating sense)

Re the Freys - good point, many did die for Robb. And as I said earlier in this post, I feel badly for the younger members of the house who had nothing to do with the Red Wedding or atleast couldn't do anything about it. Its the actions of the elder Freys which disgust me. Treachery IS par for the course in war, I agree, but I think the RW shocked even the most battle hardened families - its just not cricket, Demmit!
I don't know, its hard to explain why - even Tywin says "If you could save the lives of a thousand men in battle by sacrificing ten unarmed men in a room - what would YOU do?" (paraphrased).

As for the 'charismatic' bit - that was meant in a light hearted spirit as a bit of fun.I apologise if it has inadvertantly offended. However, as you say, it does rather highlight a trend in humanity - to favour the physically attractive over the less so. And GRRM shows that strongly in the books - afterall, Cersei relies rather heavily on it to manipulate the men she encounters. To use the ASOIAF terms, its certainly not 'honourable' to forgive the Beautiful People's crimes and hang everybody else - but it happens, doesn't it?

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Except when you're a noseless dwarf.

Yes, but that noseless dwarf was loyal to his family until he realized that they had betrayed him in the worst kind of way. I'm not saying I admire the way the Lannisters do things. I think the majority of their actions have been pretty despicable. However, the difference between them and the Freys is that the Lannisters at least try to uphold the reputation of their family in the "public" eye, all kingslaying aside, while the Freys are very open about their greed, envy, and conniving ways.
The Lannisters are powerful because they don't give anyone a second to doubt that they should be powerful. The Freys just whine and squabble about what should be theirs. The solidarity they showed while pulling off the Red Wedding pretty much showed their colors to us- they can't pull themselves together enough to fight like men, or like a family. They take the easy way out and stab allies in the back. The Lannisters allow themselves to be associated with that type of thing, but they would never dirty their hands the way the Freys would. In the game of thrones, the Freys are just slimy little pawns.

 

[Wil]

Thats what I love about this forum, the spirited (and respectful) debate...

- but Wil, they ARE only fictional characters! I don't see incest as a normal OR healthy thing - but I find both these characters intriguing and complex - I enjoy the way GRRM explores repulsive and sympathetic traits in them. It all goes to the making of a great piece of fiction

Hey Arya, I wasn't bother by any of the comments at all. Call me silly but I get the vibe that you think I (or someone else) was. Your appology (if it was to me) was unneccessary (though I like the kindness behind it). In case it doesn't come across, please note that my communication and writing style is naturally a little sarcastic, so assume any negatives from me are meant to be taken as a little tongue-and-cheek. And I get a kick out of all the different opinions and feelings spewing and vomiting out onto this website.


As for interpretation: I think you hit the nail on the head (I hate that corny phrase but it works so well). These are fictional characters and stories that we're supposed to enjoy and not take too seriously, although we have to remember we naturally use our real-life likes, dislikes and morals to decide whether we like them or not. Also we do live vicariously through some of the characters, which is why we can become so passionate about the books.

I dig (like) the Freys cause they're the outsiders making good in the elite society. I'll admit it, I relate to that. They're a little rough around the edges yet can still compete with the others. Some of them are a little sleazy, but hey, which of the other families doesn't have a blemish or 2? (Which of us haven't been a little too sleezy or a little too drunk once in our life?) I say to heck with it! Cockroaches for King!

As for the incest, I dig GM's handling of it and want to see it continue. Hell! Incest for everyone! We'll have to wait for Arya to mature a bit though. Because Pedophilia is NOT acceptable.

As for beauty, if there is a God then he's a nasty practical joker, cause he gave us all the ability to appreciate it, but restricted its use to only a private, lucky few. Godda love him (if he's even there).