SoST Round One: Randall Tarly vs Ned Stark

[Wiggum]

Voting ends Saturday

 

[Culhwch]

Tarly has more of the soldier in him than Ned. Ned fights when he has to, Tarly fights because he wants to.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Tarly has more of the soldier in him than Ned. Ned fights when he has to, Tarly fights because he wants to.

However, I believe Ned is more intelligent than Tarly. And that includes emotionally intelligent - giving him the ability to foresee his immediate opponents actions in advance, rather like a good chess player. Yeah yeah, I know Ned failed to play the game successfully in KL, but he does have the defeat of 3 Kingsguard (with help) under his belt. Tarly struck me as more of a 'tried and true' methods man. So if Ned pulls out a few unorthodox strategies, I see him as having the upper hand.

 

[gigi]

Ned has Star Power, he wins easily.

 

[Koopa]

Tarly wins for me, But ned is gonna win this contest cause of his popularity

 

[Wiggum]

Yeah, I agree Kiwi. I think Tarly would hand most people back their body parts on a platter.

But no one wants to kill Ned again, lol.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Tarly wins for me, But ned is gonna win this contest cause of his popularity

Hmmm,well it's not really popularity behind why I am voting for him - hell, we've already seen Ned die once, it can be done. However, I am having trouble right now recalling when we've seen Randyll fight mano a mano in any major way(apart from Cafferen)...I can recall his victories and losses in the war of the usurper, but that was as the commander of troops. However, I am interested to hear more about why you believe Randyll could defeat Ned, am always open to persuasion.
One of the reasons I hold doubts about Tarly's ability to think laterally is how hard he tried to turn Sam into a fighter, using completely the wrong tactics and making him even more afraid of everything and everyone. Seems like Randyll just loses his temper when frustrated, which IMO counts against him in battle with Ned, who rarely loses his cool.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

/threadjack

FC, can you or anyone else honestly say they werent frustrated by Sam? We forgot how completely useless he was on arrival to the wall. Even Jon got frustrated with him at one point. Ive been thinking about this whole Randyl Tarly/Sam relationship and Ive got to think 1) he tried more tactics than Sam relayed to us, those were only the most sensational and 2)He's used to dealing with men, not boys and Sam never showed any self-responsibilty in this.

Seriously early Sam frustrates the hell out of me, and if all it took was some undead creatures of the far north to attack then I guess Randyl did choose the wrong parenting methods...he shoulda done that.

In this case I think Sam needed a swift kick in the ass, and only then did he realize that he needed to change the way he lived his life. In this case Randyl did a good job.

I actually applaud Randyl for realizing Sam was beyond recovery and excising him from the generational line. Its a tough thing to admit yer wrong, and Tarly had a responsibility to subsequent Tarlys to do so.

You need to realize this is a different world than the one we live in....theres no Oprah to tell Randyl how to raise his children, theres no Dr. Phil to put him in touch with his feelings....theres only House Tarly and the people who want to take what they have.

/end threadjack

 

[MOUNTAIN THAT READS]

Hello all! I have been lurking around the forum for a while realizing that I do not pay NEARLY enough attention when I read. I am completely addicted to this series. Anyway, here is my oppinion. Since Ned survived the fight with the sword of the morning, who is supposed to be all that I knight shoud be, and managed to stay sane while living under the same roof as Cat he could beat Randall Tarly. I am positive on this.......sort of. Feel free to change my opinion on this you already have on everything else.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Welcome to the boards MTR....and I must say yer name made me chuckle.

Now some people on this board will absolutely astound you with their ability to recall information. I dont know how or why...but god bless em. So do yourself a favor and occasionally post a hair brained theory about Varys being a Targaryen or something along those lines so we can mock you and everything will go swimmingly for you.

 

[Koopa]

For one he commands the Van, wich is probably one of the most dangerous positions to be in, it is shown he is a hard and courageous man (outlaws +many wars), he is a true soldier or so GRRM would have us belief, also in the world they live in it is only natural he is dissapointed in Sam, and that he gave up on becoming what he in his eyes should be after all those many years. Also we have not seen him lose his temper truly, he mocks Brienne and so on, but when did he lose his temper and wents ballistics?

Moreover Ned seems an apt enough warrior, but nothing more. He is able to command his troops but having a strategic mind on one on on isn't enough, and not even that helpful, cause strategy for a whole army is different then for single combat. Neither have we actually seen him fight, he won over the Kingsguard but they where 7 against 3 that is about it.

Moreover he was honorable and not without a brain, but he wasnt cunning at all.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

"In this case I think Sam needed a swift kick in the ass, and only then did he realize that he needed to change the way he lived his life. In this case Randyl did a good job."

Randyll did a 'good job'? No, I strongly disagree. Jon (and friends) were able to encourage Sam, over time, to have enough inner strength to withstand the horrors he encountered. Sure, I found Sam a frustrating character - but as I recall, he started to show strength and self understanding after spending time with people who valued him and also pushed him. I mean, look at the traits shown by Samwell when he first arrived at the Wall - he was so convinced he was worthless, a craven, he was ready to give up and die. And who had told him this, over and over? You seem to be positing that Sam was just 'this way' through some accident of nature, that his personality would default to being frightened and depressed, thus requiring Randyll to intervene and 'change' Sam for the better.

I'm not a believer in nature over nurture - children are totally reliant on their surroundings and carers for the input they receive which ultimately shapes their lives. I see Sam as being a result of his parents conflict - psychologists note that for male children they need to have a tangible mental 'separation' from their mother in their adolescence - they need to break the 'self = mother' identification that occurs in male children to start to establish an understanding of their own masculinity. Classically, male children who do not have this often reject their father and everything he seems to stand for, championing their mothers values and preferences over anything that is associated with the older male.
Sadly, many men for whom this is the case still feel a desire for a separate male identity, clearly differing from the female, but when their father figure is violent or cruel (or continually criticised by their mother), young children believe they have the choice of emulation or rejection, their father being the foremost (sometimes only) male they have for reference.

So, Sam's tendency to run to his mother for comfort, fleeing the hostile male figure, (and being quietly encouraged by her in this behaviour) means he starts to take on the feminine characteristics of women of the day for his identity - passivity, submissiveness, a love of artistic pursuits, indulgence in food and appearance and immediate capitulation to the male.
Thus, any distinctly masculine traits are demonised, and incompatible with the 'good' parent. Can you see where I'm going here?
So, when presented with alternative male roles in Jon and Aemon, he begins to adjust his own behaviour. In the space of a relatively short time, he undertakes tasks he would have been incapable of before he joined the NW. Other men died on the march, and froze in terror at the sight of the undead - Sam survived and actually killed one. Sure, Sam may never wield a sword like his father wished, or fit the rigid warrior mold required, but then, neither can Tyrion - and in a battle of wits and ruthlessness, Tyrion could kick Randyll's arse seven ways from Sunday.

It didn't take an undead attack to bring out Sams bravery - Sam had found a male in his life capable of both strength and love, who is not lessened by his mercy, but strengthened by it. Sam now has something to live for and fight for - his brothers and himself. In essence, he's growing into manhood. It's no coincedence that Sam had his first sexual experience after this awakening - women aren't attracted to children, even if they are physically all grown up and nobly born.
So, the point of all this is - how did a bunch of Nightwatchmen, drawn mostly from the scum of society, manage to start the change of a little boy into manhood? After all, they didn't have Oprah or Dr Phil around either, as you say.
Somehow they did something Randyll couldn't do, and in much less time with Sam than he had. It's not Sam that's beyond recovery - its his father. Randyll is still stuck in the good old tried and true methods, and when that fails, just get rid of the evidence of your mistakes and start again with your second son.
In battle, failure to understand your opponent is enough to screw you completely. And there's no going back and starting again if you **** it up.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Moreover he was honorable and not without a brain, but he wasnt cunning at all.[/quote]

Yeah, his willingness or lack of it to fight dirty might be the deciding factor.

 

[TK-421]

Again, Aegon, you have been bested.

Now, here comes my usual rant against on of the the biggest a#*hole of the series.

Completely agree with Funky. Sam's father did nothing to help him. In fact, if Westeros had a Chrildren's Aid Society, he'd be at the top of the watchlist along with Balon Greyjoy and Jaime Lannister. I cannot and will never like or respect Randyll's character after what he did to Sam. As the father of a Sam myself, I know the troubles of having a "sensitive" and sometimes "space cadet" son but I can never do anything that Randyll has done to Sam. Let alone send him to the Wall in disgrace to get him out of the picture so he doesn't continue to be his heir. If anyone is cowardly in that scenario, it's Randyll. It was Jon and Ed, Gilly and Measter Aemon and his other friends who helped him find his courage, not his crappy family.

Samwell continues to be one of my favourite characters and we can expect great things from him. Just wait until he learns more of the knowledge of a maester and meets up with Dany...

 

[Koopa]

well in any case, i agree with Chtulu up until a point, but still in that society it is understandable that he dislikes his own son, perhaps especially his own son.
In any case, the fact that he is capable of such ruthlessness only enhances his surviving and coming out on top factor, i mean it is not like Tarly been written as stupid

Now the point that i disagree with is that you can not compare single combat with raising a son, He might be unable to read his opponent, so might ned for that matter, but not because he was unable to raise sam and by stucking to the old tried method, especially since this is single combat, and not warfare with thousends of men. It like comparing apples with lemons.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Tee hee...bested? In the words of John Paul Jones....I have not yet begun to fight......

First stop comparing that world to this one. I wont accept it. Its not this world, the standards of childrearing today are not applicable. So any discussion of child abuse, maltreatment or whatnot has to stand on the merits of that society...fair enough?

Ill start by answering TK then move to FC....

You have a "Sam" TK? And do you have a second child? If you knew yer Sam was going to squander everything you hoped to leave to your second child what would you do? I would hope you would write him out of your will. Thats in todays society...I would think you would do something even more drastic if there was more at stake, like life and death. You guys see sending Sam to the wall as an angry bitter man sending away his problems. I see it as a man trying to save what is left of his heritage for one child who wont endanger the other one. Remember we only see this through Sams eyes, a cowardly biased pair of eyes......Seriously how much of Sam is Sams own fault? Im not saying Randyl was a good parent....but arent we tired of blaming everything on the parent? At what point does a child need to just plain stand up for himself? At what point can a parent admit defeat and try to salvage the situation. I think thats what Randyl did. Im not saying its the best thing in the world, but its a whole lot different and excusable that what you are saying.

FC...Nature vs Nurture....Im not going to debate it. Better psychologists than we are still doing so and they cant decide on an answer. Fair enough? Also youre describing very real and plausible reasons for Sam to be the way he is....stop it. Sam is a fictional character, and whether or not he developed a mother complex of some sort is irrelevant, Im not sure but I doubt George got that deep into child developmental to decide the basis of Sams character. I get what yer saying and even "kneel before Zod" on the issue but its not germane.

However the idea that the men of the Nightswatch are what saved him, Im gonna have to disagree. If thats your belief then I would argue it was Jon and Jon (and Aemon, but thats a different development) alone who covered for Piggy long enough for him to find his feet. But I dont even think thats the whole story.

Drawing this into my world before Ive been in the military (still am in a way) and have seen combat, and trust me Sam is not uncommon. I know what its like to have your support system kicked out from underneath you. For Sam, not having his mother, was the moment of truth.....he wanted to roll into a ball and play dead, but eventually he didnt. Now I can accept camraderie as part of the answer, but more importantly I think his self reliance developed from not having any sort of "mother" to run to. Once Jon was ripped from him he had to develop or perish. Only two people can claim to have really aided in Sams development...Jon and Aemon. The others were ancillary at best and moved at the behest of those two. I would contend that one was an exceptional leader of men, and the other a possesor of keen insight beyond the norm. Men much more gifted than virtually all of Westeros, and as such capable of greater feats than the normal. The norm being people like Randyl Tarly. Dont fault Randyl for not being exceptional.

What if everything that happened to Sam was what Randyl intended. The growing up part, not the undead cold wights of the north attacking thing. How many parents send their kids to military school in the hopes that theyll shape up, or those "Scared Straight" things where kids go to prison...we only see Sams view of these things and theres a possibility he's exaggerating things at times. What if Randyl hoped the Nightswatch was the best way to cut the apron strings? Would that change yer mind?

Good ole tried and true methods? Did you see that crap Randyl tried? He did all kinds of stuff...more than the norm if I understood Sams intonations correctly. Heres the thing, you see the phrase "finest soldier in Westeros" as meaning lacks the ability to adapt. If Tarly is a leader of men, a capable man in the vanguard of a fight he must be adaptable. The old axiom from War College was "the first casualty of any battle is the plan"....or as Sun Tzu said, "spend all your time on contingencies and not the plan, the plan is easy and will be discarded quickly, the contingencies will save your life". So lets agree that soldiering and raising children are two different things and not let the two get crossed up in our discussion.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Now the point that i disagree with is that you can not compare single combat with raising a son, He might be unable to read his opponent, so might ned for that matter, but not because he was unable to raise sam and by stucking to the old tried method, especially since this is single combat, and not warfare with thousends of men. It like comparing apples with lemons.[/quote]

Hi Kiwi,
Yes, I agree with you on that one. My mini essay was more in response to Aegons threadjack re parenting. Basically, I still can't decide which one would win - both have strengths and weaknesses. GRRM makes it clear that the ruthless ones win in many circumstances when they push the envelope on cruelty/treachery, but that same power also makes for blind arrogance at times, which trips up even the best fighter.
Sooo...I'll just flip a coin, methinks

TK - Best of luck to your Sam, maybe he'll enjoy the series one day too!
I think one of the things I like best about GRRMs writing is how universal some of the experiences are - I feel like I've been in some of the same situations that he details, albeit on a far, far smaller scale.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Tee hee...bested? In the words of John Paul Jones....I have not yet begun to fight......

Hmm..this is getting really interesting! Valid points there Aegon, some I agree with, some I don't. Still, I'm flattered people actually read the whole post, it was a bit longer than I originally planned! I shall respond to your points without trying to mix the issues of fathers and battles too much.

Something to consider - yes, Randyll needed atleast one military minded son to inherit house of Tarly, but did Samwell need to be turfed for that to happen? His younger bro showed considerable aptitude for the warrior life, perhaps Sam could have been trained to the diplomatic life instead?. I will concede that tradition stated that the family sword went to the eldest, but I'm sure there are examples in history where there were multiple sons, and each worked according to their talents. Before anyone tells me that is far too cuddly and reasonable for the times, remember that Willard Tyrell, the heir to the Tyrell empire, is crippled. He can't lead men into battle, or distinguish himself in the lists. in fact is described as gentle and intelligent, with little interest in war. The Tyrells seem to have found a place for him, nonetheless, and as they are a canny lot, it's unlikely to be a ceremonial place only.
Tyrion as well - OK, Aegon, there the thinking of the times rears its head again, in that Tyrion has been effectively denied his birthright, Casterly Rock, but his work was, IMO, the deciding factor in repelling Stannis' attack. However, his father continually reminded Tyrion of how little he was worth (in his opinion), leading to Tyrion (after much provocation) committing patricide.

To my mind, GRRM has set up two parallel figures - one the one side, we have the parenting displayed by Ned Stark and the Tyrells and on the other we have the Lannisters and Tarlys. I've noticed he has used this fascinating method before - so we have Cersei vs Sansa, for instance (love to see them face off in a catfight!). Can't think of any more right now, too tired.
TK - you may find works by Robert Bly to be of interest, specially 'Iron John'. He talks a lot about the relationship of boy children to their fathers and other male figures.

Your time in the military sounds interesting, Aegon. How realistically do you think GRRM has depicted the battle, from your experience?

 

[JohnSnow]

blah blah blah, yada yada yada....

blah blah blah, yada yada yada

Tee hee...bested? In the words of John Paul Jones....I have not yet begun to fight......

First stop comparing that world to blah blah blah, yada yada yada.

Holy cow I come back and this thing has turned into a dissertation! I will now neither agre nor disagree with anyone....

Aegon, I have to admit that I wondered if RT sent Sam off to become more of a man. I also agree that the loss of Sam’s mother spiraled his life down the path of “pansy-ness”. I (as a father, educator, coach, etc.) agree that certain children need to be faced with unorthodox situations in order to reach life changing results.

On the other hand I think RT looked at his son and said some aggressively vulgar words and booted him to the wall, because in the world they live in, a son’s weakness is a reflection of the father (see Tywin and Tyrion for further examples!)

If he had continued to support Sam’s fondness for anything un-masculine, we may have seen a father / son closely resembling Edward Longshanks I and his son as they were portrayed in Braveheart!

By the way, the reason that there has been no conclusion to the nature/nurture arguments is that when it comes to the development of something as complicated as a human being, with all of the hundreds of thousands factors that assist or impede growth and formation of a person’s character, there is no true one-size-fits-all answer. What works for one kid does not work for another coming from the same type of family, same race, financial standards, etc..

I will also say that Sam’s change, however slight it may be, started when Jon (a very popular and respected young man) stood up for him and gave him a chance. It has evolved every time he has wanted to give up and he has (for whatever reason) trudged on.

I thought that he may have reached the final step when he got a little from Gilly, but he cheezed out of that as well.

The final cent – If Samwell doesn’t increase his testosterone output in the next book I am gonna start hoping for a quick end.

Sorry about the sarcasm….

*snow*

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Im glad everyone is being civil. I will aspire to keep things this way....

If Sam really sought support from his mother while running from his father as you contended FC....wouldnt that mean that his growth didnt actually begin until he stopped doing that. That would make Jon his surrogate mom, and Thorne his substitute "Tarly". In a sense he was in the same dynamic as his childhood. In that vein I think Sam didnt even begin any sort of personal growth until the time on the Fist. He was still Ser Piggy at that point in time, others disagree and thats fair. Remember he gave up after the Fist and forced Small Paul to carry him. I think watching Paul die and reacting in blind instinct and horror was what began his slow transformation. The subsquent horrors and desperation moved him down the path....not camraderie. Thats just my opinion and as always I know nothing.

As for sending him to the wall, I think Randyll had three realistic choices for him. The priesthood, but those vows are revokable. Ask his liege to intercede and appoint Dickon as his heir, but he was too embarrassed by the prospect, or send him to the wall. So while I would have chosen the second choice, Randyll chose the third.

I do think Tyrion got screwed unlike Sam. Why? Sam is incompetent. Tyrion most decidely is not. Tywin made a big mistake in not naming the dwarf his successor....thats someone who would have kept the Lannister House strong. Tywin let his pride get in the way of the family name. Assuming he hates Tyrion because he blames the dwarf for his wifes death and not because hes a Targaryen, Tywin definitely showed himself to be not as smart as I thought he was....