Im glad everyone is being civil. I will aspire to keep things this way....
I will too.
"If Sam really sought support from his mother while running from his father as you contended FC....wouldnt that mean that his growth didnt actually begin until he stopped doing that. That would make Jon his surrogate mom, and Thorne his substitute "Tarly". In a sense he was in the same dynamic as his childhood. In that vein I think Sam didnt even begin any sort of personal growth until the time on the Fist. He was still Ser Piggy at that point in time, others disagree and thats fair. Remember he gave up after the Fist and forced Small Paul to carry him. "
I understand what you are saying in that respect, however I see that as a universal experience - we all find ourselves alone and reliant on only ourselves atleast once (or we should) - and if we survive, we know we can do it again.
No, I don't see Jon as a surrogate mother - after all, cannot fathers protect their sons from bullies? I see Jon beginning as a brother or father will with a young boy (or mentally young, in Sams case). He has not the resources yet to defend himself, so Jon is providing the basics of physical safety, without sparing him the truth of what he needs to do. See, I saw Jon giving verbal encouragement AND criticism, and building Sam up without also giving false hope. The family dynamic, as I interpreted it, was that Sam's father tore him down completely, using massively emotive terms and he would run to his mother who would feed him (literally!) sweet lies about how things were, thus subtly telling him she disagreed with his father and setting up the parental conflict - and giving him no understanding at all of what was happening.
Sure, Alliser is a pretty good replica of Randyll but Jon, whilst disagreeing with terms like 'craven', told the harsh truth to Sam - "this is what the world, and most of the men in it, are like". And also, that if Sam survived and fought, there were other places in the world for him and that he had inner worth - if he would work for it. There's the period of complete separation as you say, and then Sam returns to Jon and the rest of the NW. However, he's older now, in terms of experience, and Jon realises there's no need to protect him as much - so, like a father or older brother, he pulls back. He is still there for Sam, but he won't act as a crutch. He continues to challenge Sam, but also supports him and acts to his advantage, as when he secures Sam a place as Aemons helper.
Over time, Sam is ushered out of the nest completely - rather harshly, as most grown adults still have their supportive parents to visit, but this is the world of ASOIAF, natch.
So, to my mind this mimics perfectly the balancing act parents have as their children move through teenage years onto adulthood. OK, GRRM probably didn't sit down to plot that out, but it's in there anyway - the mark of a truly great writer!
"As for sending him to the wall, I think Randyll had three realistic choices for him. The priesthood, but those vows are revokable. Ask his liege to intercede and appoint Dickon as his heir, but he was too embarrassed by the prospect, or send him to the wall. So while I would have chosen the second choice, Randyll chose the third."
Yes, its no big surprise when you look at his character. In plot terms that has turned out the best for Sam anyway and I dearly hope he will live to spit in his fathers face - although Randyll would probably take that as a sign he did the right thing all along!
I wonder what Sam could have been like if raised by Ned for instance, or the Mormonts.
"I do think Tyrion got screwed unlike Sam. Why? Sam is incompetent. Tyrion most decidely is not. Tywin made a big mistake in not naming the dwarf his successor....thats someone who would have kept the Lannister House strong. Tywin let his pride get in the way of the family name. Assuming he hates Tyrion because he blames the dwarf for his wifes death and not because hes a Targaryen, Tywin definitely showed himself to be not as smart as I thought he was...."
Hmm...but incompetent is in the eye of the beholder. OK, this may be splitting hairs since we agree that Randyll only wanted a warrior son to begin with, but still..
F'rinstance, Tyrion is physically incapable of battle, atleast for any length of time. His legs ache, his back gives out, he's too small to fight most opponents properly. He is physically incompetent. He's not sterile, though, and neither is Sam. What they have of value is their brains - the difference being. Sam needed the right people to bring that out. If Randyll had realised this, he could have set Sam to be the diplomat and hold the political savvy (which we know he can do) and had all the warrior and battle leader he needed in his second son.
So, if you believe that Tyrion deserved his birthright for his intelligence, why not Sam?
I know why not, of course. Because Sam was still a child, and would always have been a child under his fathers roof. Tyrion had Jaime, who provided just enough surrogate fathering to help Tyrion achieve adulthood.
And yeah, I agree Tywin was stupid to cast Tyrion aside - but he fell into the same trap as Randyll, that of fooling himself with what he WANTED to believe. Tywin believed Tyrion 'killed' Joanna - we know that's not true, and if that Tyrion had looked like Jaime, Tywin would have embraced him. Likewise Randyll wanted to believe the worst of his son and created a self fulfilling prophecy. It's still pride, to my mind.
, i make it a point to not care about a proper sentence buildup on forums, its not like i am working, i am here for fun, thus i write how it damn well pleases me, as for your last comment, it could be seen (by stupid fellas like me) as nitpicking as well ;-)
