SoST Round Two: Jaime Lannister vs Oberyn Martel

[Anushka Mokosh]

Who would win Arther Dayne or Howland Reed? Robert Bartheon or Rhaegar Targaryen?

It seems to me all the elite warriors would be very dangerous weaponS masters. How can anyone be so sure Jaime would win? Rhaegar winner of many tournaments killed by Robert. Arther Dane greatest sword master of all time killed by Howland Reed(?). I found this thread very puzzling.

Rhaegar isn't exactly a winner of many tournaments. Like, BFS said, he was great, but never really legendary. Robert was a known champ at melee and their fight was more of a melee than a tournament lance run from what we know. Plus, hammer will beat sword more often than not in a melee, plus experience at close combat was on Robert's side.

Howland Reed is the knight of the laughing tree so bear that in mind too. It was also implied he is proficient at the use of poisons and in that fight it was several vs several. We don't know who dealt the finishing blow nor how it exactly played out.

This thread's fight is pretty hypothetical. It is mostly about how the feats and hype of one character match up to feats and hype of the other character.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Well, if the TV series is to be believed, Oberyn spends all his time wenching instead of training, so Jaime should be a clear winner.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Rhaegar isn't exactly a winner of many tournaments. Like, BFS said, he was great, but never really legendary. Robert was a known champ at melee and their fight was more of a melee than a tournament lance run from what we know. Plus, hammer will beat sword more often than not in a melee, plus experience at close combat was on Robert's side.

Howland Reed is the knight of the laughing tree so bear that in mind too. It was also implied he is proficient at the use of poisons and in that fight it was several vs several. We don't know who dealt the finishing blow nor how it exactly played out.

This thread's fight is pretty hypothetical. It is mostly about how the feats and hype of one character match up to feats and hype of the other character.

we don't exactly know that for sure. There are some good arguments that the night of the laughing tree may have been Lyanna stark.

we don't know nearly enough about Howland Reed to be able to enter him in this kind of discussion, and if he doesn't show his face in the next book, I will be very very disappointed! but for now, I will say Howland Reed for the win, in any match up even those he is not included in.

Srylanna is right though, a battlefield would be much more comparable to a Melee tournament then a joust. a Melee is a fight to the finnish and the last man standing wins the day, and it seems like Robert was always more of a brawler than a jouster. in GoT, he wants to join the Melee, not the joust and at the tourney at harrenhall, Robert apparently took part in the melee then as well, with no mention of him jousting.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

we don't exactly know that for sure. There are some good arguments that the night of the laughing tree may have been Lyanna stark.

I like to think it was Howland. Simply the bullied getting back at the bullies of his own strength is something that I like. xD

we don't know nearly enough about Howland Reed to be able to enter him in this kind of discussion, and if he doesn't show his face in the next book, I will be very very disappointed! but for now, I will say Howland Reed for the win, in any match up even those he is not included in.

Exactly. He is featless and hypeless. Hard to assess him based on nothing.

Srylanna is right though, a battlefield would be much more comparable to a Melee tournament then a joust. a Melee is a fight to the finnish and the last man standing wins the day, and it seems like Robert was always more of a brawler than a jouster. in GoT, he wants to join the Melee, not the joust and at the tourney at harrenhall, Robert apparently took part in the melee then as well, with no mention of him jousting.

Robert was only even mentioned once in regards to jousting and it was by Cersei. She slips and says that Joffrey or Tommen (not sure which one) is as good as his father at it. And someone mockingly asked which tournaments did Robert win followed by a nice save from Cersei, but it was only a small tournament and then a comment that Robert was always more of a melee fighter than a jouster. I don't remember the exact scene but I'll look for it.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Robert was only even mentioned once in regards to jousting and it was by Cersei. She slips and says that Joffrey or Tommen (not sure which one) is as good as his father at it. And someone mockingly asked which tournaments did Robert win followed by a nice save from Cersei, but it was only a small tournament and then a comment that Robert was always more of a melee fighter than a jouster. I don't remember the exact scene but I'll look for it.

I think i remember that scene and I believe she was talking to Tommen, or about Tommen when he was practicing his jousting.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

I think i remember that scene and I believe she was talking to Tommen, or about Tommen when he was practicing his jousting.

Yeah, and I think it was to Margaery, but I can't remember exactly. I do remember the slip up and the save, but it is a bit hazy.

 

[Boaz]

grip, here's the thread where Wiggum first discussed his concept of a tourney.

The pairings...

And the final match...

And here was the new tourney Wiggum proposed two years ago... his last post was two days after he started that thread. Maybe it was something I said?

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

grip, here's the thread where Wiggum first discussed his concept of a tourney.

The pairings...

And the final match...

And here was the new tourney Wiggum proposed two years ago... his last post was two days after he started that thread. Maybe it was something I said?

That was evil, Boaz. Really really evil.

On an unrelated note, I wouldn't be too against having a thread where we can propose and discuss vs matches in ASOIAF universe.

 

[Boaz]

On Suvudu, they've been doing a Cage Match Tournament for five years or so. Back in 2010, Jaime Lannister (the 15 seed in a field of 32 that included The Shrike, Cthulhu, Aslan, Gandalf, Aragorn, Conan, Raistlin, and Rand) made it to the final fight. On his path, he beat Hermione, Cthulhu, Temeraire, and Kvothe. The fight against Kvothe (also called a Kingslayer) was particularly entertaining because GRRM and Patrick Rothfuss (Kvothe's creator) both wrote their versions of the contest... and both of them wrote tales of the sidekicks (Tyrion and Bast) using trickery while the heroes never even lift a finger. Very amusing.

Anyway, Jaime lost in the final.

 

[grip junky]

Let me first start off by saying that a cartoonish over sized war hammer is not better than a sword in a duel, but this is a fantasy story, So, Robert was the better, luckier that day. One more thing just remember who trained Rhaegar, he could hold his own in a fight like that. Rhaegar has to die for the story. A hammer or a ax is cheaper not better.

As far as the thread goes, Jaime winning is not puzzling, whats puzzling is the why.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Let me first start off by saying that a cartoonish over sized war hammer is not better than a sword in a duel, but this is a fantasy story, So, Robert was the better, luckier that day. One more thing just remember who trained Rhaegar, he could hold his own in a fight like that. Rhaegar has to die for the story. A hammer or a ax is cheaper not better.

As far as the thread goes, Jaime winning is not puzzling, whats puzzling is the why.

Except it isn't a duel. It isn't cartoonish. It isn't oversized. A good blow with a hammer can be very effective even against a man in armour. With sword, not every hit will always count.

 

[grip junky]

Except it isn't a duel. It isn't cartoonish. It isn't oversized. A good blow with a hammer can be very effective even against a man in armour. With sword, not every hit will always count.

"Robert himself joined the fighting and met Rhaegar in single combat."

That is a duel.


<LI style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: inside; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px">Head: Cast metal with antique finish, gold painted inlay. 14.5" long. <LI style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: inside; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px">Plaque: Silkscreened fiber board. Includes mounting hardware.<LI style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: inside; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px">Overall Length: 44 inches. Weight: 10 pounds. (I think it is heavier in the book.)IMPORTANT, READ THIS: This is the exclusive officially licensed King Robert Baratheon's Warhammer, from "A Song of Ice and Fire." All swords come with a certificate of authenticity personally autographed by George R.R. Martin. This will be a limited edition of 2000 pieces. Each hammer is laser engraved with an edition number. ( I did not want this to be red. I do not know how to getback to black)

10lbs that is a cartoon, Swing a 2 to 5lbs sledge hammer and miss what you are swing at and then tell me how great a hammer is. with the weight all at the end it is not better than a sword. Beter yet swing it hard off and on for 20 30 minutes as if you were in a melee. It is not better at all.( I did not want this to be red. I do not know how to getback to black)

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Except it isn't a duel. It isn't cartoonish. It isn't oversized. A good blow with a hammer can be very effective even against a man in armour. With sword, not every hit will always count.

I agree with most of that, except that Robert's hammer was oversized, at least for normal men. I guess it was the perfect size for Robert.

If you read about the fight between Bronn and that knight in the vale (forget his name) they remark at how many time Bronn connects with hsi sword, leaving deep gouges in the knight's armour, but none of those stikes do any harm. The reason knights wear armour is to protect themselves from swords.

Roberts killing blow with his hammer stove in Rheagars breast plate and, if I am not mistaken, Robert hit him with the spiked side of his hammer. A hammer, I might ad, that Ned Stark could barely lift. Ned, who, himself, fought with a 2 handed great sword, could barely lift the hammer Robert fought with. When something that heavy is being swung with such momentum, there is no hope of parying the swing, you have to dodge, whereas Robert could trust in his armour to block alot of Rheagars blows.

the show Deadliest Warrior could do a whole season about the matches between Game of Thrones characters.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

"Robert himself joined the fighting and met Rhaegar in single combat."

That is a duel.

No, that is single combat. Single combat =/= duel. Duel is a formal form of a one on one showdown. It has a form that is to be respected. A one on one fight in a war has no such rules.

This is the exclusive officially licensed King Robert Baratheon's Warhammer, from "A Song of Ice and Fire." All swords come with a certificate of authenticity personally autographed by George R.R. Martin. This will be a limited edition of 2000 pieces. Each hammer is laser engraved with an edition number. ( I did not want this to be red. I do not know how to getback to black)10lbs that is a cartoon, Swing a 2 to 5lbs sledge hammer and miss what you are swing at and then tell me how great a hammer is. with the weight all at the end it is not better than a sword. Beter yet swing it hard off and on for 20 30 minutes as if you were in a melee. It is not better at all.( I did not want this to be red. I do not know how to getback to black)

Spoiler

^Robert's warhammer since I can't see what you tried to put properly

And you are forgetting Robert's proportions and the way he was described in the books. Robert was massive. Not as massive as the Mountain, but definitely one of the brawniest men in Westeros, during his prime that is. (And I'm not nearly that massive to be able to do what he could.) Hammer is heavier than a sword, but Robert isn't relaying on speed. He is relaying on strength and in the strength department, hammer beats a sword. Even with an actual sword, in an armoured battle, one isn't relaying on the sword to cut as much as to crush. In full armour, Rhaegar was slower than normally, but Robert is stronger so his strength compensates well. And with the hammer, all Robert needed was a one well-placed hit to completely crush Rhaegar as he did in the end.

Next, my original point is that hammer works better than a sword in a melee where there are often multiple opponents and one relies on catching other in an opportune moment. Relaying on opportune moments means relaying on as little hits as possible making hammer a better option if one is strong enough to wield it effectively.

And last but not least, fight was written as it is and therefore if we want to talk about what if fights, it is a feat to be used. Martin never wrote anything about Robert getting lucky that day so, in this context, we are to treat it as wining fair and square with full credits to Robert.

P.S. I fixed your coding. For future reference, just delete the stuff in [] and you'll remove the formatting.

I agree with most of that, except that Robert's hammer was oversized, at least for normal men. I guess it was the perfect size for Robert.

Goes without saying. You can never call anything oversized or undersized without a point of reference. It wasn't oversized for Robert.

the show Deadliest Warrior could do a whole season about the matches between Game of Thrones characters.

And I'd watch every single one of them XD

 

[grip junky]

"When something that heavy is being swung with such momentum, there is no hope of parying the swing, you have to dodge."

Thats the point. When you miss with something that heavy their is no recovery. At best it is into the ground, but more likely than not it is out of your hand. Thats why hammers have a thong on them. with a hammer that heavy the thong will not work.

I am not a good writer, when I read back what I write, I think I come off as a know it all. I am not. This was fun.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

"When something that heavy is being swung with such momentum, there is no hope of parying the swing, you have to dodge."

Thats the point. When you miss with something that heavy their is no recovery. At best it is into the ground, but more likely than not it is out of your hand. Thats why hammers have a thong on them. with a hammer that heavy the thong will not work.

I am not a good writer, when I read back what I write, I think I come off as a know it all. I am not. This was fun.

For an average man of average experience, probably no, there is no recovery. However, as many faults as Robert has, he isn't a stupid fighter. He is experienced and had been using a hammer in numerous melee and fights. He isn't going to be stupidly swinging it around allowing it to slip from his hands. He won't be making hits like that. I'm not talking of a fight between amateurs when I compare hammer to sword. I'm talking of a fight between experienced fighters with the body constitution appropriate for wielding their respective weapons. The scenario you are depicting is something closer to how Gregor would wield a hammer and there is a reason he isn't wielding one. He isn't a very smart fighter. He is just a strong fighter.

With weapons, you often have to lose some to win some. Sword is less taxing when it comes to mistakes than a hammer, but hammer gives you the strength advantage and for a capable enough fighter which Robert definitely is, the disadvantages will greatly be diminished by experience and skill.

Lol I'm not a know-it-all either. Just read a lot of stuff and participated in a lot of discussions regarding this particular topic.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Hammers were a favourite mediaeval armament, certainly among foot soldiers - you could not rely on a sword to get through plate or even (chain) mail armour. A hammer, however, was perfectly suited to provide compression damage to wound or kill. A lot of halberd designs would have a small hammer on the opposite side of the blade, precisely for that reason.

True, a very heavy weapon, when swung, could leave the bearer vulnerable - but assigning mighty weapons is more a literary invention to mark out mighty men, than a care for the physics of combat.

2c.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Thats the point. When you miss with something that heavy their is no recovery. At best it is into the ground, but more likely than not it is out of your hand. Thats why hammers have a thong on them. with a hammer that heavy the thong will not work.

I am not a good writer, when I read back what I write, I think I come off as a know it all. I am not. This was fun.

The point I was trying to make is that when you are dodging you're opponents blows, what you would actually be doing is giving ground, and Robert and his Hammer would have the reach on Rheagar, so when Rheagar jumps out of the way for a swing, he is probably to far away to land an effective blow himself. Robert might be leaving himself a bit vulnerable every time he swings and misses, but with rheagar out of reach, he has time to recover each time. Also, Rheagar died in the water, later named the Ruby Ford. you have to assume the fight didn't start there, so if Robert was beating him back, with Rheagar giving ground, and suddenly Rheagar finds himself knee deep in water, a quick glance to make sure he doesn't slip on some wet rocks, or a brief stumble, and Robert is caving in his breast plate with a hammer.

 

[grip junky]

"The point I was trying to make is that when you are dodging you're opponents blows, what you would actually be doing is giving ground, and Robert and his Hammer would have the reach on Rheagar, so when Rheagar jumps out of the way for a swing, he is probably to far away to land Robert might be leaving himself a bit vulnerable every time he swings and misses, but with rheagar out of reach, he has time to recover each time."

No.You can Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge forward. You can Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge side to side. You can Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge in all kinds of ways. They all wear your opponent out, the more swings the better. For me Robert winning will always be a hole in the story. Just to put this out there a the longer the hammer the better you want to be on the inside of the arc. A longer handle makes that easier.





"Hammers were a favourite mediaeval armament, certainly among foot soldiers" you mislead. The hammer you are talking about is a one handed hammer about the size of a ball peen hammer. archers carried them because the were cheap to make, a lot of them were cast or lead and did not take much skill to use.

"assigning mighty weapons is more a literary invention to mark out mighty men, than a care for the physics of combat."

This is the best line in the thread and makes me feel foolish for posting. The above in this post was me just having fun.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I don't pretend top be an expert on medieval weapons and fighting styles, but if you are busy dodging swings, you aren't busy attacking. And an arching side swing at waist height, you can only jump backwards. If you ducked, you put your head in the way, Side stepping would do nothing to help you, I'm not sue how one would "Dip" in a fight, although they were in or around water, and dodging forward, while that would put you inside their range of the Hammer, you would also be too close to use your sword.

I guess there is no way to convince you that Hammer beating a Sword isn't a hole in the story, but for me, it seems very believable. Especially when you consider the skill of the fighters.