Immortality, who wants to live forever?

You do realize that you've just crossed the boundry from science into religion? "Next step" assumes a pattern of development rather than random chance. It has the idea that there is something better or greater that needs to be accomplished to fulfill a kind of destiny.

Parson: If that "next step" comes from an outside source, a teleology that involves a "higher being", then that would be correct, I suppose. But if it comes from within, that isn't the case (or at least, not necessarily; human beings can create a religion around any idea, and in that sense, it could become such). There we are simply dealing with human self-determination, which is an entirely different thing, and localized rather than cosmic in scope. And even on that plane, it's limited; it isn't genuine free choice, but selection from limited (even if numerically great) options. And the "next step" may be what we assume to be better or greater, but that would be from our limited perspective, and may not be beneficial in any way at all.
 
I think we were horribly traumatised as a race when we evolved enough intellect to realise we would die despite all our instincts to stay alive.

Of course we evolved complicated philosophies to make the world fair again.
The problem is that once you have convinced yourself death is good, of course immortality is bad.

It is ironic that these philosophies that tell us it is good to die can themselves be viewed as living organisims, some of which have lived for thousands of years, all of which claim the right for themselves to live forever or at least to the end of the world.
 
The problem is that once you have convinced yourself death is good, of course immortality is bad.

It is ironic that these philosophies that tell us it is good to die can themselves be viewed as living organisims, some of which have lived for thousands of years, all of which claim the right for themselves to live forever or at least to the end of the world.

Problem is, when I began looking at this idea, I wasn't against the idea of immortality -- far from it. But I began doing some serious thought about the subject, both as a mental exercise and for a series of stories I was working on. The more I looked into the repercussions, the less appealing immortality became. And the more I've learned about the complexities of human psychology, emotions, interactions, etc., the more the evidence points to it being a very bad idea ... at least, until we evolve into something that is essentially no longer human as we've ever known it. But the probability of that is extremely slim (possible, but probable? no) for more reasons than can be gone into in anything less than a rather sizable tome. And the evolution would have to be something that rewrites our most basic brain structure -- as far as I know, no evolution in any species has really done that. It becomes more complex, but it does not go back and restructure the most basic parts of the brain, and that is what would be necessary to eliminate the most difficult things where a viable immortality would be concerned.

It's not a preference; it's realistic observation of who and what human beings are, and what would be required for immortality to work. The two simply don't mix.

And, lest this be chalked up to simply my individual experience -- on your earlier statement: While it's an interesting view I don't think it quite matches up with the evidence. I recommend looking into the anthropological (as well as historical) evidence for how concepts of death and its part in life evolved over time. Trauma tends to be something requiring a sense of a disjuncture; this in turn implies a "norm" where the traumatizing aspect does not exist. But as we evolved, we were experiencing death all around us the entire time. It was the norm for us as a species, but not as individuals. That is where the trauma comes in: on the individual level, not the species level. And not understanding death, this cessation of normal action, puzzles and hurts and frightens (once a certain level of reasoning is reached), as one misses one's loved ones, and can also make the analogy that if they are no longer moving or breathing, laughing, eating, having sex, etc., then the same thing may happen to "me". Hence the mystery. The evolving of the various myths of immortality that we are familiar with came a lot later, as a set of responses to this reaction of fear on an individual and also collective (not species) level. (This is not to say that earlier ideas of immortality did not exist, but they were certainly refined and replaced by other models of the concept. It is these with which we are generally familiar.)
 
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The simplest form of immortality might be to connect two minds cybernetically, eg mother and unborn daughter with enough bandwidth that they act with such coordination that they do not consider themselves different people, just as each hemisphere of our brain does not consider itself a different person. The mother could 'teleoperate' through the daughter at first, but her skills would gradually be re-cached on the daughter's side. Meanwhile, the mother's braincells could slowly be destroyed wherever unused to force the combined intelligence to rely more and more on the daughter's side. This happens all the time anyway. It is why we have to keep practicing old skills.

I expect from now on in, we will be changing too fast to worry about genetic evolution.
 
Parson: If that "next step" comes from an outside source, a teleology that involves a "higher being", then that would be correct, I suppose. But if it comes from within, that isn't the case (or at least, not necessarily; human beings can create a religion around any idea, and in that sense, it could become such). There we are simply dealing with human self-determination, which is an entirely different thing, and localized rather than cosmic in scope. And even on that plane, it's limited; it isn't genuine free choice, but selection from limited (even if numerically great) options. And the "next step" may be what we assume to be better or greater, but that would be from our limited perspective, and may not be beneficial in any way at all.

After reading your post about 5 times, I think I understand what you are saying.:) I believe the difference in our thinking comes in our understanding of "next step." To me "next step" implies directionality and intentionality. A step in a direction whether for better or worse is as you say not clear from our limited perspective. For me if we are simply talking about natural selection, you would say something like the next era or epoch or the like. If we have the forces of nature moving with directionality and intentionality than I maintain we have entered into the domain of an intelligence so much superior to ours that it would certainly have to be considered at least a demiurge. If not truly God.
 
To me "next step" implies directionality and intentionality.

The Presumption of Purpose. Directionality and intentionality are a matter of perception. These are subjective qualities that may have no meaning in objective reality. Before there were people to "perceive" the movement of events on Earth, there was the evolution of inanimate matter into an organization that we now call life--there are reasons for this. For a brief time there will be the "presumption" of purpose by some life forms on Earth, of which people are the highest order. And when we are gone, physical reality will continue to move (as long as there is available energy or less than maximal entropy) onto the "next step" or epoch or whatever one chooses to call it.

The point I'm trying to make here is that one can impose whatever narrative onto the motion of nature one chooses. The most likely correct narrative (the one that's the least wrong) is the one that incorporates the fewest assumptions.
 
Looking up something on a literary reference concerning the word "threnody", I came across the following:

As our life is very short, so it is very miserable; and therefore it is well that it is short. God, in pity to mankind, lest his burden should be insupportable and his nature an intolerable load, hath reduced our state of misery to an abbreviature; and the greater our misery is, the less while it is like to last; the sorrows of a man's spirit being like ponderous weights, which by the greatness of their burden make a swifter motion, and descend into the grave to rest and ease our wearied limbs; for then only we shall sleep quietly, when those fetters are knocked off, which not only bound our souls in prison, but also ate the flesh till the very bones opened the secret garments of their cartilages, discovering their nakedness and sorrow.

-- From Rules and Exercises of Holy Dying, by Jeremy Taylor (1651)
 
The point I'm trying to make here is that one can impose whatever narrative onto the motion of nature one chooses. The most likely correct narrative (the one that's the least wrong) is the one that incorporates the fewest assumptions.

I agree. But I maintain that in a human context the idea of "taking a step" implies directionality and intentionality, which can only arise from an outside agency exerting "force" onto the template. Therefore to speak about evolution taking the next step is to slide into the arena of theology.



We've probably highjacked this thread more than it deserves. This has little to nothing to do with "Who wants to live forever."
 
And in a human context, subjectively, I agree, next step implies purpose. That is because that is how we're built. We are purposeful beings.


We've probably highjacked this thread more than it deserves. This has little to nothing to do with "Who wants to live forever."

I know. But judging from the response, this conversation was of interest.

BTW, for those interested, and to be more on topic, the best paper (the only real paper) I've ever read on Immortality was a lecture in The Annals of Modern Physics by Freeman Dyson at Princeton entitled "Can there be Eternal Life in a Universe which Finite Energy. It was about 80 pages of interesting calculations and came out in 1985, I think.
 
Exploring the galaxies would be good, and immortality would provide the time to do so. How about giving the immortality pill only to those who set out on such a journey?
I agree though that earthbound immortality would not be a good thing.

A fine thought but space travel would be boring unless they inventend a very fast form of travel. More like you would spend 100's of years stuck on a spaceship bored to tears.

No pill for me, there may be adverture on the other side.
 
Let's say in the near future science comes up with a simple method to ensure immortality in humans; barring disease and accident we could live forever.

What would the implications be, would you want to be immortal, could you stand it, how might life on Earth change?

Would you ever do anything dangerous again?

This might actually be possible in our lifetimes, especially true for the younger ones out there. Here's an interesting site for those interested.

Immortality Institute ~ For Infinite Lifespans


I believe it's immoral due to that fact that the rich would benefit and the poor underclass would be the suppliers of spare parts to keep the rich alive until their inevitable tiring and suicide

having said that there would possibly be less fear of dying than when you be at a 20th/21th Century

I think I'm more scared of dying than Louis Wu, perhaps :D
 
In terms of real life extension--things that in the near future (~50 years) could actually prolong life and health; Stem Cells could completely revamp medical science and technology. It may be that when we master the potential of Stem Cells, many of the treatments that we have today will seem as antiquated as "bleeding" someone of evil spirits.
 
I'd like to live "forever", just for the reason to be able to look back see what happened. What drags me down though is that it will take "forever" to get there! :)

Can't we kind of... fast forward a bit when it gets a little boring?
 
I would take the immortality pill, but I wouldn't want to live forever. My comfort would be that eventually I would die accidentally. I mean, the odds are for it.
 
It would be interesting if there was a poll to concisely view the breakdown of sentiments here.

As for me, if we're talking about an eternal corporeal existence, a permanent extension of our lives as is, then I must answer with a vehement no, never.

It reminds me of a documentary speculating on future advancements. Among them was the total elimination of sleep, the creation of a true 24-hour world. Next to immortality, it's one of the more abominable things I've heard of. I can bear each day because I'm unconscious for about one out of every three hours. It sounds good on paper, but people would eventually go stark raving mad. We're compelled to make our waking hours count because they're limited.

On the same token, life is precious because it's short. I would almost be willing to follow into immortality just to watch the ones who embrace it so eagerly, so that the moment they break, I'll be there to tell them, "I warned you, but you didn't listen."

Ecclesiastes is a good study of the limits of our mortal existence. For the atheists and agnostics out there, you can ignore the Teacher's solution, but pay close attention to the problem. "Vanitas vanitatum et omnia vanitas."
 
Good lord would that mean i would be married for ever and ever and i would be at the beck and call off children forever to good lord what an horrable thought i think i will skip that one!
 
The stories I've read indicate a projected lifespan of 18,000 to 25,000 years and the cause of death would be - accident.

However, I would expect that lots of folks would get into space travel because they would have the time and eventually get lucky and have the money. And, with space travel my guess is that the accident rate would become higher over time. Waking up groggy on Mars would not be the same as waking up on Earth with your face down in the gutter outside the local bar.

We need to be mining the Kuiper belt and building a bigger Mars so that it has more gravity and can build a bigger atmosphere. Until you can walk outside and play a game of softball - it's not a planet worth calling home.

magnets,
 

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