Sansa Player in training or pawn

[MacNeal]

Right now, I don't see Petyr as feeling even remotely threatened by Sansa - and whilst I'm not discounting it, I don't see Petyr as leading up to an elaborate and ironic vengeance upon her either. Sure, he'd push her out the window himself if he needed to, but how much more satisfying to bring her to feel (some sort of) love and trust in him, educate her just enough to hold her own (whilst still bringing all her knowledge to him for advice) and then place her in a position of moderate power, knowing he can rely on her to protect him and further his interests?
Classic grooming process. Right now, I'd also say it's in her best interests to go along with it. He's a helluva player and she'd be wise to keep him on her side.

Petyr also had Lysa poison Jon Aryn (a dear friend of her father's), and had a hand in Ned's downfall as well. Sansa heard Lysa say as much right before she was shoved out the moondoor. At some point Sansa will put 2 + 2 together and play the game without Petyr.

 

[MacNeal]

But there hasn't been a case thus far of a dire-wolf dying, followed by their human, as such. We know the wolves tend not to out-live their humans, but IIRC Robb was dead before Grey Wind was pumped full of arrows.
I can see why a wolf would pine and waste away on the loss of it's warged companion, but I think humans are strong enough to overcome the grief, and it's not really much in the way of an 'omen'.

You could be right. I was not implying though that Sansa would be die from being overcome with grief. I remember CAT mentioning how somehow the wolf connection was imperative for her children. I will have to look for it, but it seemed to be heavy fore-shadowing that if they lost their wolf they would be doomed.

 

[Yunalesca]

Things just seem to happen to Sansa - she doesn't seem to actively do much herself. Although she is at the centre of a lot of important events, she doesn't control them. So I personally don't see her as a player...

However, at the end of AFFC I think she was starting to realise that maybe she could become a player. Hopefully as she matures, she'll realise what a powerful figure she could become. But I feel that at the moment she's still to naive to actually be considered as any kind of force...

 

[Boaz]

What will make Sansa a player? Passion and perceived threats.

Sansa is slowly realizing she has power because of her birth. She's first in line to Wintefell and second in line to Riverrun (until Edmure has a child) and somewhere on the list to The Eyrie. She was betrothed to a King and married to the Master of Coin, formerly Hand.

I think when she realizes that she can influence people because of who she is, then she'll also start to realize the threat that other players are. These realizations are the ones that show her that she does not have to be a pawn (which is what she was brought up to be).

I think her passion for the game will come first from dealing with perceived threats. Petyr is co-opting her to believe that his threats are her threats. Once she feels that she has a stake in the game, her own stake not her family's stake, then she'll desire to not lose it.

But her real passion will come when she finds that Littlefinger is her greatest threat. Who knew of Ned's betrayal? Varys, Janos, Cersei, Barristan, and Pycelle. I think Sansa believes that Ned was betrayed by Janos, Cersei, and Joffrey. Barristan, Pycelle, and Varys would gain by telling Sansa the truth, but only Varys is in a position to find her. When will Sansa find out?

What if we find out that the intermediary for Tywin and Walder was Littlefinger? He'd already served as the Lannisters intermediary with the Arryns (unsuccessfully) and the Tyrells (very successfully).

What will Sansa do when she learns that her benefactor betrayed her father, her mother, and her brother?

 

[AandKsavetheDAY]

To be honest, I think it'll probably be a while until she figures all that out, just from how she's done previously. In the meantime, will she be marrying Harry the Heir and becoming the lady of the Vale, or will those plans get dashed just like her previous marriage hopes (namely, Willas Tyrell.)?

 

[Boaz]

Hopefully they won't be dashed like her marriage hopes with Joffrey.

"Off with his head!"

 

[AandKsavetheDAY]

Haha I know. If she married Harry and Robert died, she would be in a position to become a player i think, and that could make things interesting.

 

[devilsgrin]

What will make Sansa a player? Passion and perceived threats.

Sansa is slowly realizing she has power because of her birth. She's first in line to Wintefell and second in line to Riverrun (until Edmure has a child) and somewhere on the list to The Eyrie. She was betrothed to a King and married to the Master of Coin, formerly Hand.

I think when she realizes that she can influence people because of who she is, then she'll also start to realize the threat that other players are. These realizations are the ones that show her that she does not have to be a pawn (which is what she was brought up to be).

I think her passion for the game will come first from dealing with perceived threats. Petyr is co-opting her to believe that his threats are her threats. Once she feels that she has a stake in the game, her own stake not her family's stake, then she'll desire to not lose it.

But her real passion will come when she finds that Littlefinger is her greatest threat. Who knew of Ned's betrayal? Varys, Janos, Cersei, Barristan, and Pycelle. I think Sansa believes that Ned was betrayed by Janos, Cersei, and Joffrey. Barristan, Pycelle, and Varys would gain by telling Sansa the truth, but only Varys is in a position to find her. When will Sansa find out?

What if we find out that the intermediary for Tywin and Walder was Littlefinger? He'd already served as the Lannisters intermediary with the Arryns (unsuccessfully) and the Tyrells (very successfully).

What will Sansa do when she learns that her benefactor betrayed her father, her mother, and her brother?

I agree about Sansa.
I think people seem to forget that Sansa it barely 15 and has, until the war, been raised as a complete pawn. The traumas in her life, inflicted upon her by others (though her own hand in her father's death must also be a cause of major grief for her), would send most people a little nuts (or a lot even). I think with no immediate physical danger, Sansa has begun her realisation process. She should realise the amount and type of power Cercei had/has is also available to her, and the revenge and security that such power can grant. Sansa has powerful assets, breeding - linking her to three of the major houses by blood and others by marriage, not to mention reputedly stunning good looks, all she needs to do is develop the one that until now has lacked - intelligence and smarts (being very different things, but both necessary to play politics well).
Realising the dangers to her, now that the immediate threats are outside the Vale, i foresee Sansa becoming if not a major player, but at least one capable of holding her own, and in the event of a marriage to someone she likes, a very strong support to her husband. Though hopefully a better one than Catelyn... who was far too paranoied for anything other than watching her children "die" all around her.

Not sure about the Red Wedding connection... though its an interesting possibility.

 

[Raven]

I think people seem to forget that Sansa it barely 15

Actually she isn't even 15. At the end of AFFC, she's somewhere between 13 and 14 years old.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

And some twisted minds want her and the Hound to hook up. /shudder

 

[Koopa]

Its getting close to 2 am in the morning and i am suddenlu hit with insight.

A pawn and a player in training are the same thing. Right up until the moment she becomes a player. Thus this discussion is wrongly named. And indeed we have been discussing wether she'll become more, wether she"ll be a player for real one day, not wether she is a player in training or a pawn, cause it is obvious that she is both, the big question is,will she succeed in her education or remain a failure. But even players are pawns as well.

Also i read something about that sansa is a toughie, cause she has been able to cope with all that has happened to her without cracking up.

Perhaps I am a cold person, but I dont find it all that much amazing. Even more i find it normal. Only exceptionally weak persons would have cracked up. Up until AFFC regardless of her age she has not shown any strenght at all, indeed, all she did was turn inside herself, close herself up, not facing anything. Nothing strong or amazing about it. It is only in AFFC, when she finds herself in a safe environment, that she shows signs of strenght, though my interpretation is more that she just comes more back to a twisted version of herself. Not strenght at all, it is not strenght when the only way you can get yourself to act in an almost normal manner, when you are pretending to be someone else. thats a play, and plays gotta end sooner or later. We'll see how well she does when she is forced to become sansa once more.

Oh i remember one more okay moment of her, during Stannis attack of King's Landing. Even so, saying what she said to me does not require much strenght. No, up until further notice Sansa is the weakest of the bunch, just like lady was of the direwolves. Alayne seems to be shaping up better, but Alayne is a facade nothing more.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Wait....a reasonable, insightful post (with some semblance of punctuation at that) by Kiwi? Ooh oi. Who are you and what have you done with him?

Now that the kidding is aside, allow me to address the topic and more particularly Kiwis post....

I agree with you Kiwi. Sansa has done nothing to demonstrate strength or more acurately has done nothing to demonstrate conviction or strength of purpose. Circumstances and her own instinct of survival have lead Sansa down the path she is currently on. And for the record there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. She is still a teen.

The problem is when you compare her to Arya, Jon, Rob, and even Bran she comes up lacking. Arya has a singleminded clarity of purpose that I find refreshing in this day and age of angst driven main characters. Jon and Robb are what I imagine Eddard and Robert were like during the rebellion. With Robb being the impulsive Robert and Jon the emotionally torn Eddard.

Its not that Sansa is particularly inept or not very resourceful, its that her comparables are exceptional.

Go figure.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Just a thought, late at night and delurked...

The scene depicting her rebuilding Winterfell in the snow was incredibly poignant, moving and clearly a turning point in her characters direction. To dismiss her out of hand as flighty or directionless is shortsided.

ok 'nuff said

/lurk

 

[Weasel Soup]

Great point Trey, especially since winter is coming.....I reallly like that observation.

 

[Florian the Fool]

Ah, I remember the days when I had devastating insights at 2am. Trouble was, when I read over what I’d written the next day, it always seemed to be stuff like “The secret lies within the cheese” or “Only the artist listens to the rain and knows what it means” and so I found myself once more unenlightened and benighted.

Kiwi’s point, however, makes more sense. After all, the pawn that survives to the later stages of the battle is promoted to queen (although in some situations, a knight may be more useful).

I’ve never really given a lot of thought to Sansa, and I think the reason for that is that she’s such a passive character, rarely initiating anything (apart from that thing with her dad and Cersei, so I can understand why she’d be reluctant to try again). But now that I do come to think of it, she reminds me a little of the title character in I,Claudius. Everyone thought Claudius was an idiot and of no consequence. He just sat in the background, observing the events that were taking place around him, swaying with the wind whenever it changed direction, and he ended up becoming Emperor.

 

[jemcaesar]

I quite like Sansa and I think she's more intelligent than people give her credit for. Maybe not at the start of the series, but she has certainly learnt deviousness and cunning.

 

[Koopa]

I have never said she was not intelligent, however she aint a genius either.
She has been at court from almost the start of the series, close to all the intrigues. If she hadn't picked up anything regarding the game of thrones by now, one could only assume she is either a dimwit, or had her head in the sand the whole time. Especially since Littlefinger is somewhat tutoring her. Even so, in her relative short time at the Vale, she has already slipped up, when taking to the Royce girl.

I must admit to some septisism though. I have never "forgiven" Sansa for betraying her entire family, and acting all haughty and superior in the beginning. I was cheering for Sandor when he put a knife at her neck, only to be dissapointed when he not even raviged her. At that moment it became clear that when it comes to little girls, he has himself a soft spot. And I do not mean that in the perverted way like some shippers. He looked after Sansa, and later after Arya, in his own fashion true enough. Sandor to me was never really the badass he is to everyone else. Deep down he is an honourable chap wich happens to know his way around a sword.

Perhaps in that sense i do see him as a badass, as a great warrior, much more so then his brother the mountain that rides. Who to me, was always just a big bully. And GRRM meant him to be that way, as Tywin's little helper.

 

[ChaBaby]

Something to consider...

Did anyone else get a since of foreboding when her wolf died? I think she will play a significant part however I will not be surprised if she does not make it to the end of the series. I believe there is something significant between the lives of the wolves and the lives of the children. If the lives of the wolves are extinguished then what chance do the children have? Just a wild theory I have that may have been mentioned by someone else earlier.