Pate, Gregor & Loras....alive or dead? (lol..or undead?)

[MOUNTAIN THAT READS]

Wouldn't that be great, Margery has no champion until at the last minute in walks the Loras perfectly healthy. Cersei's mouth hits the floor. Loras defeats the church's champ. Then Cersei names UnGregor to the kingsguard to replace Oakheart and the church marches in the Hound.

 

[TK-421]

and the church marches in the Hound.

Did not think of that. If the Hound is a brother on the Quiet Isle and they are associated with the Sparrows and the new HIgh Septom, the Hound may yet have his chance at revenge...and revenge will be sweet.

 

[Boaz]

The Greyjoys and the Martells are the first to send marriage proposals to Dany. What if Loras' injuries are a ruse? What if Loras is on his way to woo Dany? Loras is the son of Targaryen loyalists. The Tyrells were one of the first families to accept Targayen kingship. Loras has already served two Royal Houses, why not a third?

Dany is mature for her age, but she's still young. When she looks at Victarion will she find him attractive? Will she imagine his brother, Euron, attractive? When she sees Quentyn will she find him attractive? I bet she finds Loras beautiful.

She'll see that Victarion is a fighter. I wonder if Quentyn can really fight. We know Loras is a tremendous jouster (and he did not die on the Blackwater).

Victarion can offer her ships. Quentyn can offer fanatics. Loras can offer the largest army, including the largest contingent of mounted knights in Westeros.

Victarion can offer strong male leadership. Quentyn can offer the same. Loras can offer strong female leadership. Hey, I mean from his grandmother! Come on people! Focus!

The Tyrells have two choices, Lannisters or Targaryens. I believe the Tyrells think they are going to have to kill off all the Lannisters except Tommen if they are going to be secure under a Lannister dynasty. Mace, Olenna, and Margaery do not feel fully appreciated for all of their support. On the other hand, the Tyrells might think that Dany will be grateful for their help and will reward them accordingly.

 

[MOUNTAIN THAT READS]

Loras can offer strong female leadership. Hey, I mean from his grandmother! Come on people! Focus!


LOL....classic...... I have also thought Loras could be on his way to Dany. But, I hadn't compared the three men like that. Loras could be an ideal person to send (and I am sure he would not be alone). We can probably assume that the Tyrell's have knowledge of Dany's rising power, after all Mace was present at the small council when reports were given to Cersei about dragons. As well as the Golden Co. breaking its contract. If he went back and discussed it with his dear old mum it would make sense to not be wholly invested in only one side of a battle that may be coming.

Yes, the Tyrells appear to have made it to the top (Marg as queen). With that being said what would be the harm for house Tyrell sending someone to Dany just in case. Loras to represent the house in a disquise (murmer knight) along with someone else with more diplomatic skills. Thus they can find out her intentions. ie invasion or staying accross the narrow sea.

With Marg's imprisonment they may have been shocked into realizing what an incredible mess Cersei has made. And they may be regretting sending Loras who could bail her out in a trial. After this accusation even if Marg is acquitted there will always be lingering resentment with the current leadership of the church, which thanks to Cersei is a major power. If everything works out then great for the Tyrells, but they seem to be the kind of people that would not invest their entire future on a plan that seems to be falling apart at the seams.

If this happened I wonder who the knight is that was hurt? They could have just put someone in his armor and said go nuts, then after the battle if he was dead oh well, if he lived they just say he was hurt and sheild him from everyone not in the know, If he was truly hurt then oh well. Lets not forget the person that brought Cersei the news of Loras's injuries may not be loyal to her. Aurane Waters delivered Loras to Dragonstone, what if he was paid or promised land to return with dire news about Loras. After all when Cersei was arrested Aurane took off with her fleet. That does not speak well of his loyalty to her atleast

The Tyrells wanted power so they attached themselves to the Targ's,Then Renly, Then Lannister, now maybe Targ again. They are always with the rising star.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I absolutely love the thought of Loras wooing Dany. In fact that is the only reason Ive read so far that has me thinking his death could be a ruse. You guys should know me by now, I like motivation before action. Thats excellent....

My other current theory is that Jaime is returning to KL to defend Margy, not Cersei. You know that whole "only the Kingsguard can defend the honor of the Queen.." well Cersei aint Queen she's the queen-mother so she gets second choice. And that sets the stage for the FrakenGregor to defend Cersei....Jaime dies....Margy absconded with, the Tyrells send entreaties to Dany and begin to defend their borders from the church and Lannisters.....

 

[TK-421]

Well, I like your theory about Jaime and Marg but I find one flaw. It assumes that the Lannisters will align with the Sparrows. That is the last thing that could ever happen considering the ongoing war, the lavishes of the court, the starving of the peasants, the rumours of incest and the now proven promiscuity of Cersei. Unless, Kevan and Lancel are the ones to align themselves with the Sparrows and abandon the old ways that died with Tywin and soon Cersei.

Dany and the Church may yet align to defeat another threat: foreign Gods and a little something know as the Others.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Well I assume Cersei is going to get off scot-free with FrankenGregor defending her honor (against the Hound no less)....and Cersei is an opportunist, willing to hold anyone to her breast that helps her cause....and Margy would be a fugitive from justice.

Do I have to discuss my Dany as liberator notion again, Im as tired of typing the fire and death portion as others are of hearing it.

 

[Koopa]

I absolutely love the thought of Loras wooing Dany. In fact that is the only reason Ive read so far that has me thinking his death could be a ruse. You guys should know me by now, I like motivation before action. Thats excellent....

My other current theory is that Jaime is returning to KL to defend Margy, not Cersei. You know that whole "only the Kingsguard can defend the honor of the Queen.." well Cersei aint Queen she's the queen-mother so she gets second choice. And that sets the stage for the FrakenGregor to defend Cersei....Jaime dies....Margy absconded with, the Tyrells send entreaties to Dany and begin to defend their borders from the church and Lannisters.....

Cersei is queen regent, that goes before queen atm, at least if you take into consideration their titles before their arrest, i guessing they do, like Tyrion i think it will be innocent until you are proven guilty.

 

[MOUNTAIN THAT READS]

Do you really think Tyrion was innocent until proven guilty. It seemed to me the burden was on him to prove his innocence. The church seems to think one witness is enough to condem both Cersei and Margy, now the burden is on them to prove they are innocent. If the system was innocent until proven guilty they wouldn't be trying to force confessions out of them, the church would be building a case against them.

 

[Koopa]

Cersei had to prove Tyrions guilt if she was unsuccesful he would have gone free.
As for the church, well the police tries to get confessions as well without real prove so..., in any case the church has what it deems real prove (the knight there), the queens are in what u might call medieval custody

 

[devilsgrin]

cersei was never going to lose against Tyrion in that 'trial.' The only reason they had that farce was as a gesture. Tyrion was a Lannister and Tywin sat as his judge... Tywin would never allow a lannister to be executed - even for Joffrey's murder, without going through the motions of a trial.

 

[Koopa]

The reason they had that farce is because it is the law.
The law said a trial must be held, to see if he is truly guilty.
therefore it means that Tyrion is innocent till proven guilty.

 

[TK-421]

Well, the fact that Tyrion has fled and killed his own papa likely proves his guilt in alot of people's minds. Unless you are a Tyrell of course. So, it doesn't really matter.

 

[Koopa]

At that point he had already lost his trial, so he was already found guilty.
And you got to admit, cersei made a very good case.

 

[Young stormlord]

At that point he had already lost his trial, so he was already found guilty.
And you got to admit, cersei made a very good case.

As Jaime thought "In this city of liars I know what kind of evidents can be found" or something like that Tyrion was inoccent but Tenna and Shae's testimony's really killed his hopes.

 

[Koopa]

As Jaime thought "In this city of liars I know what kind of evidents can be found" or something like that Tyrion was inoccent but Tenna and Shae's testimony's really killed his hopes.

well yes but thats not the point, to almost everyone it seemed like he was indeed guilty. In RL there have been innocents who had all the evidence against them and where convincted guilty as well, the point is that right up until the verdict (the verdict being the viper death) Tyrion was indeed still innocent in the eyes of the law.

 

[MOUNTAIN THAT READS]

well yes but thats not the point, to almost everyone it seemed like he was indeed guilty. In RL there have been innocents who had all the evidence against them and where convincted guilty as well, the point is that right up until the verdict (the verdict being the viper death) Tyrion was indeed still innocent in the eyes of the law.

And guilty in the eyes of everyone whose job it is to uphold the law.

 

[devilsgrin]

having re-read the chapters that relate to the trial, i have to say that in no way was Tyrion innocent until proven guilty. It was much more in the nature of Guilty until proven innocent. The trial was his right, but the trial existed solely as a means for Tyrion to attempt to prove his innocence. Primitive cultures afterall were all pretty much like that...

 

[MOUNTAIN THAT READS]

We have very effectively hijacked this thread. Pate=dead, Gregor= Undead, Loras= alive, pretty, bisexual, and MIA.

 

[Koopa]

having re-read the chapters that relate to the trial, i have to say that in no way was Tyrion innocent until proven guilty. It was much more in the nature of Guilty until proven innocent. The trial was his right, but the trial existed solely as a means for Tyrion to attempt to prove his innocence. Primitive cultures afterall were all pretty much like that...

Oh pls, point out to me, where in the book is he considered for the law guilty.
It makes no matter what the people are thinking, so yes they all thought he was guilty, big deal, that does not mean he was guilty in the eyes of the law, until that was the case all they could do was take him into custody.

Cersei had to prove he was guilty, otherwise she would never have had to build a case, we would only have seen Tyrion trying to make a case for its innocence. You ppl mistake what the people are thinking as the law. The law clearly show that a trial must be held. A trial in wich one must prove what he accuses the other of. This is why Cersei gets to go first in bringing forth her witnesses.

As for guilty in the eyes, well the Viper wasnt convinced now whas he?
We dont know Tywins feelings to he likely would have used this to get rid of Tyrion aka what happened to Samwell Tarly, and Mace Tyrell was quickly convinced of Tyrions guilt. But that word itself says it, They HAD TO CONVINCE the judge of Tyrions guilt. Regardless of the judges, and so on, the fact remains that hypothethically he is innocent till proven guilty according to the LAW. That KL is corrupt is not the laws fault.