Pate, Gregor & Loras....alive or dead? (lol..or undead?)

[Dolorous Edd]

Oh pls, point out to me, where in the book is he considered for the law guilty.
It makes no matter what the people are thinking, so yes they all thought he was guilty, big deal, that does not mean he was guilty in the eyes of the law, until that was the case all they could do was take him into custody.

Cersei had to prove he was guilty, otherwise she would never have had to build a case, we would only have seen Tyrion trying to make a case for its innocence. You ppl mistake what the people are thinking as the law. The law clearly show that a trial must be held. A trial in wich one must prove what he accuses the other of. This is why Cersei gets to go first in bringing forth her witnesses.

As for guilty in the eyes, well the Viper wasn’t convinced now whas he?
We don’t know Tywins feelings to he likely would have used this to get rid of Tyrion aka what happened to Samwell Tarly, and Mace Tyrell was quickly convinced of Tyrion’s guilt. But that word itself says it, They HAD TO CONVINCE the judge of Tyrion’s guilt. Regardless of the judges, and so on, the fact remains that hypothetically he is innocent till proven guilty according to the LAW. That KL is corrupt is not the laws fault.

Erm, Tyrion knew that the corruption in KL would mean that he would be found guilty (as you say, cersei hated him and it was never in any doubt which way the lannister lapdogs would vote), so he demanded trial by combat. His representative lost that combat. He was found guilty under the eyes of God, which is far more damning then being condemned by a jury of mere, and as you say fallible, mortals. Tyrion is innocent as it so happens, but he was found guilty by a legally valid and sanctioned trial. According to the law of the land he is guilty.

 

[Koopa]

Erm, Tyrion knew that the corruption in KL would mean that he would be found guilty (as you say, cersei hated him and it was never in any doubt which way the lannister lapdogs would vote), so he demanded trial by combat. His representative lost that combat. He was found guilty under the eyes of God, which is far more damning then being condemned by a jury of mere, and as you say fallible, mortals. Tyrion is innocent as it so happens, but he was found guilty by a legally valid and sanctioned trial. According to the law of the land he is guilty.

First off, if you where a judge, and you have no other knowledge then the witnesses you would find him guilty as well. He demanded trial by combat only after it was clear he could not make a good enough case, whereas cersei case was very convincing, and only after he found someone to fight for him.

Basically you agree with me that he was innocent till proven guilty -->found guilty AFTER his representative lost. The fact that Tyrion is in fact innocent doesnt matter to the discussion, what matters is that he is indeed considered innocent till the verdict of guilty before the law. Now yuo can say that it is not fair, but it is the law, and it is not like in real life there are not plenty of cases where the guilty walk free, and the innocent get condemned.
The system is not infallible, but it is a system where you are innocent till proven guilty.

 

[TK-421]

I wonder if this study into the law and justice system of a made-up land is leading anywhere. Even if if there is some semblence of innocence until proven guilty, something tells me they did not have habeas corpus.

Tyrion and Cersei have made their beds and now must lay in them. Except right now Cersei's bed is in a cell managed by your friendly neighbourhood religious zealouts and Tyrion's is comfortably in Pentos and soon on the back of a dragon. My money's on the dwarf, even if he lost this fascinating trial of his (which was only fascinating when he finally decided to let the Viper fight for him).

 

[Koopa]

Come on, there where lots of interesting things to be found besides the duel

 

[MOUNTAIN THAT READS]

Do you really think Tyrion was innocent until proven guilty. It seemed to me the burden was on him to prove his innocence. The church seems to think one witness is enough to condem both Cersei and Margy, now the burden is on them to prove they are innocent. If the system was innocent until proven guilty they wouldn't be trying to force confessions out of them, the church would be building a case against them.

I can't beleive I am quoting myself. (hangs head in shame)

Kiwi, I didn't say there were no laws, all I was trying to say is there is not a "beyond reasonable doubt" clause. Tyrion had to literally prove he did not poison the cup. Cersei did provide a strong argument that he was guilty including eye witnesses, I will grant you that. But as soon as the Queen shouted he poisoned my son, he was screwed unless he could prove 100% his innocence. Even if she didn't have witnesses Tyrion would have lost. It would have been his word against the Queen's.
There would have been a trial:
Tywin: "Cersei says you killed Joff"
Tyrion: "I say, I didn't"
Tywin: "Can you prove you did not do it?"
Tyrion: "How do you prove a negative"
Tywin: "Are you saying you can't prove you didn't"
Tyrion: "I can find hundreds of people that didn't see me put anything in the cup, but they weren't watching me all night long. I am ugly after all."
Tywin: "Well, without any proof of your innocence, the queen's testimony is all the proof we need."
Just look at his judges the grandfather of the deceased, Father of the widow, who could have died also, and the Viper, a man he threatened on their first meeting. This trial was going to be an uphill battle from the start. I am not saying in the eyes of the law he wasn't innocent, I am saying underive the circumstances he had the burden of providing proof of his innocence if he wanted to win. Which is why I said the burden was on Tyrion.


wow kind of alot happened while I was typing that

 

[Koopa]

I dont see it that way, too me Cersei still had to prove that he was guilty, her word alone to me does not seem enough for the law, perhaps if this was against a commoner (it is a class-oriented system after all), but Tyrion is of the blood royal. Especially since they are brother and sister.

 

[MOUNTAIN THAT READS]

I see now that we actually agree on almost everything. In my opinion all we are really disagreeing on is how much weight Cersei's (or the church's) word carry. My perspective is the word of the queen would trump a nearly anyone including a member of the blood royal. You think there would still need to be more proof.

 

[MOUNTAIN THAT READS]

Sorry for the double post, but I did wait a few days. I have yet another theory on Loras, (yes I know this is like my fourth one). What if there never was a battle on Dragonstone? What if he showed up and was put in charge, and told everyone to get on the ships and head out. The only person who said anything to Cersei was her unreliable admiral Rivers. Loras shows up says to Rivers deliver this message and we will grant you one of the shield islands or cash for your service to House Tyrell. Then they head home to save the day. Loras figures they can always just come back, he is taking everyone with him, and its not like Dragonstone is going to send a letter to Kingslanding saying hey you forgot about us. Rivers is planning on stealing the fleet anyway so he takes the money too. Win win for Rivers.

 

[Koopa]

They have to have pulled a ramsay Bolton then though, cause i am pretty sure there where not only Tyrell bannerman at the siege. The Lannister people must have been killed or so then

 

[Young stormlord]

They have to have pulled a ramsay Bolton then though, cause i am pretty sure there where not only Tyrell bannerman at the siege. The Lannister people must have been killed or so then

Exactly.

Redvins captains: Lannisters watch for that waves...
Lannister soldiers: Which wave?
(Sailors throw them accross the fence)
Captain: That waves.

 

[MOUNTAIN THAT READS]

They would only have to kill everyone if they wanted to keep it secret forever. If the new boss (Loras) showed up and said "the queen said to move" the good little soldiers would move. Of course I think he is on his way to the free cities, but if I throw enough theories out here one is bound to be right. Then I can say "look how smart I am"

 

[Boaz]

MTR, weren't we led to believe that Aurane Waters (not Rivers), aka Cersei's Master of Ships, was heading north to give the fleet to Stannis? My apologies, but after five thousand pages it's hard to remember every detail... and after another four thousand I don't know that I'll remember much at all.

 

[Koopa]

MTR, weren't we led to believe that Aurane Waters (not Rivers), aka Cersei's Master of Ships, was heading north to give the fleet to Stannis? My apologies, but after five thousand pages it's hard to remember every detail... and after another four thousand I don't know that I'll remember much at all.

Whe only know that Aurane took the completed part off the fleet and sailed off, to where nobody as of yet knows.

Its as good a theory on any though, depending on wich side you'd think he will take after abandoning Cersei.

 

[Young stormlord]

Whe only know that Aurane took the completed part off the fleet and sailed off, to where nobody as of yet knows.

Its as good a theory on any though, depending on wich side you'd think he will take after abandoning Cersei.

Kyburn reports to Cersei that Waters waint to "Stairways" (is that right spelling?) to become pirate. Is that true? I guess none knows.

 

[Koopa]

How would Qyburn know? Moreover i do not see Waters as a pirate somehow.

PS i have edited this post (added the second part of the sentence) , does that come up your screen, cause it doesnt come on mine.

 

[Young stormlord]

How would Qyburn know? Moreover i do not see Waters as a pirate somehow.

PS i have edited this post (added the second part of the sentence) , does that come up your screen, cause it doesnt come on mine.

Yes it came up on my screen

Kyburn actually says: Waters took your ships and will try himself as a pirate.

Waters also took people from the dungeons for his dromons. I guess they weren't in there for stealing cakes from the babies.

 

[Koopa]

I still do not see him as a pirate, i guess they might have came across one another in the halls or so, still it would be interesting to know he knows.

One of the theories say he goes to Stannis, wich would not be so weird for besides being one of the contenders he is also Lord of Dragonstone wich i thik makes him the liegelord of Waters his family.
Moreover the fact that he took prisoners might be a clue, after all Stannis is at the wall, and we all know that prisoners may choose a second chance on he wall.

 

[MOUNTAIN THAT READS]

I agree that I really don't see him as a pirate. But I also don't see him going to Stannis. Stannis is known for being rigid with criminals and unforgiving. Seaworth saved Stannis and still was maimed by Stannis. I would think if Waters showed up with 3 stolen ships being crewed by criminals Stannis wouldn't welcome him with open arms. In fact I could see him arresting Waters for theft. Besides joining Stannis would be a boring end to an interestig character. Stannis already has a reformed bad boy.

 

[Koopa]

Stannis would not see it as theft, but a returning a rightful property, I am not sure if Waters fought against Stannis on the blackwater, he probably did, nonetheless, stannis had no problems accepting the fealty of the men previously of Renly, so i do not see much difference here, also where Davos may be a reformed badboy, Waters is not, (if he is a badboy remains open as well) he merely joins a diferent power now thatthe last one he served got smittereend

Also Stannis seems atm a safe bet, the lannisters are clearely a mess, the rose is well who knows what the rose is thinking, as for Stannis, he may have lost blackwater, but only to the combined forced of the rose and the lion. He has a solid reputation for the most part AND i personnaly believe he still holds Storms End and Dragonstone. He still has a solid powerbase

 

[devilsgrin]

His loss to combined forces was nothing to be proud of. King's Landing was virtually undefended - save only by the gold cloaks and the token Lannister forces not committed to fighting Robb in the Riverlands, and Stannis' navy was by far the largest in eastern westeros. For him to have been so royally walloped means he messed up badly. The Rose only joined the battle after it was all but decided anyway. Tyrion had for all intents and purposes won the battle with the fire-oil-stuff (what was it called again?).
Not positive about whether he still holds Dragonstone - evidence could lean either way, but i hadn't heard he'd lost Storm's End as yet. Though with its token garrison, i would certainly not be able to hold out for as long as Stannis himself held it for.