Dragon Foes

[TomServo]

We need some new threads to keep us busy, here is my little idea.

Since Dany will probably 'unleash the beasts', if you will, sometime soon, what sort of defense do you guys think there will be against this? Or do you think they will just be the unstoppable force that sweeps through Westeros? Wargs controlling dragons? New magics? Other mythical creatures (harpies)?

Wild and unlikely circumstances are welcome!

 

[Culhwch]

Spears. Long spears. Twice as long as a man, aye.

 

[Koopa]

Other Dragons, and a somehow i cannot help but imagine a huge Kraken of the Sea.

 

[stonStark]

bran????warging????

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Well I doubt Dany will unleash them against anyone as a few of the spoiler chapters have indicated she is having serious trouble controlling them.
The best defense would probably be longbows if they're around in this setting.
However, it's not considered a very "knightly" weapon so exactly how many/how skilled they are is up for question.
Also up for question is the actual need for her to use them.
You could argue that with the Seven Kingdoms in disarray, the North overrun by Stannis, Wildlings and Ironborn, the support of Dorne could be enough should she land there. Especially if Littlefinger senses which way the wind is blowing and joins her cause. Considering both Dorne and the Eyrie are virtually untouched by war that would be enough against a weakened and divided Lannister/Highgarden coalition and a distracted Stannis opposition.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

The best defense would probably be longbows if they're around in this setting.
However, it's not considered a very "knightly" weapon so exactly how many/how skilled they are is up for question.

Excellent point on the landing place. I'm going to disagree with you on longbows though - given the strength of the dragon's hide, arrows could be the equivalent of hurling pins at a castle wall. So perhaps retreating to heavily wooded areas and try to force the dragons to land, then utilise pits or hidden spikes could be a tactic. Large harpoons from a launcher, with attached chains, could be used to damage and restrain them as well. The challenge would be ensuring speed and accuracy when firing at a potentially moving target. Still, if the harpoons had those curved back blades on them, even if they only embedded a few feet in the flesh, imagine the damage that could be done if the dragon tries to pull away, tearing loose the projectile!
And if the dragon remained on the ground, trying to avoid the damage inflicted by tearing out the harpoon head by force, that could give the troops time to reload and fire another, (attaching the harpoon chains to weights will also impede the dragons ability to return to the air quickly) then swarm the beast with mounted troops, armed with piercing weapons.

Even if they only managed to kill the rider, that could be enough to reduce the dragons effectiveness.

So the challenge will be finding a lure to bring the dragons down to earth (using food? a false surrender? curiosity?). The harpoon launchers would also probably need to be concealed at first to allay suspicion on the part of the riders.

All of this is moot, if the threat of Dany's dragons and Unsullied are enough to frighten the majority into surrender, and she has Dorne behind her, as you say.

 

[TomServo]

Spears. Long spears. Twice as long as a man, aye.

Some men are longer than others. I couldn't resist. Feel free to finish the quote.

So do you guys think that the dragons will be impervious to Bran's warg power? Or do you think he will have some degree of control, if not total?

As for the Unsullied, I see two things that could happen with them. One, as mentioned, is that they will intimidate the rest of Westeros and they will surrender. The other is that they will be seen as a massive, foreign, slave army(which, although they were freed, for all intents and purposes they are) and will thus rally all the houses together against her, wherein she would need to use the dragons.

 

[Raven]

Well I doubt Dany will unleash them against anyone as a few of the spoiler chapters have indicated she is having serious trouble controlling them.
The best defense would probably be longbows if they're around in this setting.

The best defence is a matter of record, actually: guerilla tactics. Don't mass your armies or hole up in an easily-burned castle, just head for the hills and harass and raid. Worked for Dorne.

However, it's not considered a very "knightly" weapon so exactly how many/how skilled they are is up for question.
Also up for question is the actual need for her to use them.
You could argue that with the Seven Kingdoms in disarray, the North overrun by Stannis, Wildlings and Ironborn, the support of Dorne could be enough should she land there. Especially if Littlefinger senses which way the wind is blowing and joins her cause. Considering both Dorne and the Eyrie are virtually untouched by war that would be enough against a weakened and divided Lannister/Highgarden coalition and a distracted Stannis opposition.

Not sure you're right here... however many casualties the Lannister/Tyrell coalition has taken - and although the Lannisters have lost a lot of men, the Tyrells haven't really been involved in any mass battles except the Blackwater, to which they arrived late - they could muster 130,000 men to start with, whereas Dorne and the Vale could muster only about half that IIRC. In addition to which, the Lannisters can (nominally at least) call upon the remnants of the Riverlands and Stormlands to bolster their forces.

Unless Dany brings over a significant force (in the region of 30,000 men), the numbers suggest that she will need the dragons.

 

[TomServo]

Unless Dany brings over a significant force (in the region of 30,000 men), the numbers suggest that she will need the dragons.

Just a little side note here, I don't have the books with me. So how many unsullied did she actually aquire?

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I could think of a half a dozen viable options, most of them involving anti-air cavalry tactics used by the infanty. But....

In open space, a field or desert or what have you, the Dragons would rip any appreciable sized unit to shred. Its about the ability to bring firepower to bear on the enemy with speed. A unit of earthbound troops wouldnt have the ability to respond in a timely manner (with appreciable force) against a dragon.

Youre almost right about the easily burnt castle. What a castle does is draws the dragon into a predictable attack pattern. If you can predict where an enemy would be then you can destroy them. The question then becomes are you willing to sheathe the sword in your own flesh (to paraphrase Jordan). How much would you be willing to sacrifice to destroy the enemies dragons?

I guess it comes down to there is really no defense against these things. Guerrilla warfare would be viable, Special Operations would be prudent. Deny the enemy the use of the asset and you effectively destroy it. But you have to account for it in every plan. Want to attack Dany? Sack a city down the coast and make sure word leaks out.....ensuring the Dragons respond. Deny foodstuffs to the enemy (my favorite) ensuring the dragon has to range far to hunt. Attack the enemy while he's out.....rely on the fact the dragons are animals. Set up ambushes of opportunity in known hunting areas....ensuring theres no support for the animal and youre defining its location.


I guess thats enough stream of conciousness stuff, I havent even begun to discuss hindrance of movement ideas that come with fighting pitched battles in restrictive terrains.

 

[TK-421]

Do like in Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail: RUN AWAYYYY!!!!

 

[Boaz]

Aegon, please continue with the hinderance of movement concept. Would FC's observations on harpoons be considered hindering? And what about poison?

Or is assassinating Dany an option, in order to destroy command and control of the Dragons, or would the Dragons be worse as rogue units?

 

[TomServo]

I do not think that the dragons would be more dangerous as rogue units. I do not believe they would attack cities and lay waste to people without the direction of a master. They are simply very large animals. So whatever destruction they would inflict, would be for their own survival, in other words, whatever they needed for food. It makes no sense that they would simply lay waste to the town for no reason, in fact they would get no benefit from this because the next time they needed food, there is no town there for them to get food from, whether the food be livestock, or people. The only real reason they would have to create this kind of destruction would be because it was at the behest of their master.

 

[Young stormlord]

Well how about Euron's horn. We all "know" that this horn's sound inflicts pain on a humans. Would it inflict pain on dragon's too? Probably because dragon's have better ears than humans. Why do you want to kill a dragon anyway? Eat's too much? Then send it to the enemy kingdom like Braavos, Lys.

I remember peasant in the house where Gregor kept his prisoners
Peasant: If old king is alive this would not happened.
Arya: Robert?
Peasand: Aerys, gods save him.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Without knowing the relative qualities of "Dragon-hide" I have absolutely no idea if anything would be viable. Harpoons fired from ballistae should be a tremendous idea, chains and the like would slow it down and the first thing you can take away is its manuveurability. Earlier I said its about the dragons ability to bring firepower to bear at a time of its choosing quicker than you could, well once you slow it down you minimize that strength and can then engage it much less aggregious conditions.

"All warfare is deception"-- Sun-Tzu (also Gordon Gecko)

Every idea I come up with relies on setting the terms of the battlefield. I guess anyone could come up with a viable dragon-killing strategem if they have the luxury of choosing the battlefield ahead of time. But what to do if encountering Danys army on a nuetral setting? Attack the wings with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune is probably the best route. The thin leather membrane wont hold it aloft with holes in it. Once grounded a single well trained light calvalry unit could probably end it with what we call "wolf pack" tactics (specifically thinking the Algars from Eddings work) . Keep the animal spinning, always slashing at the sides and moving until a kill shot opens wide....Pikeman would be eaten alive and bowman wouldnt pack the punch I should think. I dont know if the spears idea mentioned earlier would be as good as you may think, they would rely on the dragons mass to punch through its hide and if it never moved towards the spearmen then your offense is lacking.

One more thing significant to warfare, Dragons cant hover. Which means for sustained engagement of power they have to land.

Realistically (or fantasticly) it will problem end up being Eurons horn that denies Dany her dragons.....

Heres my current running idea....what if the dragons are ultimately the natural predator of the Wights. The balance to the Others if you will....wouldnt that make Eurons horn a device of evil...maybe even a device created by the Others for the express purpose of nuetralizing the Dragons.

 

[TomServo]

Heres my current running idea....what if the dragons are ultimately the natural predator of the Wights. The balance to the Others if you will....wouldnt that make Eurons horn a device of evil...maybe even a device created by the Others for the express purpose of nuetralizing the Dragons.

I'm not so sure about this. I don't know if the dragons could be the natural predator of the Wights. This is simply because the dragons are an imported species to westeros while the wights are naturally from there. So they wouldn't have been able to have their first meeting till the Targs brought the dragons over. I do agree with the possibility of the horn being an instrument of evil, though not that its origins were the Others. The horn seems to have the power of fire working for it, seeing as it burnt the blowers lungs to a crisp. This seems like the work of an agent of R'hollor(sp?) no? Thats not to say there isn't another horn out there. The more I consider it, the more I doubt that the horn Euron has is the Horn of Winter (though i don't remember what the general concensus was here, because I know this has been discussed). Okay, thats enough rambling for me.

 

[Raven]

First off, let's keep the terminology straight. Wights are reanimated corpses, therefore the issue of being 'native' to anywhere doesn't signify. I think you mean Others are native to Westeros... and that I'm not sure about.

Second, all these ideas about ballistae and harpoons and chains seem to be optimistic, in that they assume a certain lack of maneuverability on the part of the dragons and/or pretty good accuracy from the ballistae. Siege weapons against a fast-moving target? Good luck with that.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

First off, let's keep the terminology straight. Wights are reanimated corpses, therefore the issue of being 'native' to anywhere doesn't signify. I think you mean Others are native to Westeros... and that I'm not sure about.

Second, all these ideas about ballistae and harpoons and chains seem to be optimistic, in that they assume a certain lack of maneuverability on the part of the dragons and/or pretty good accuracy from the ballistae. Siege weapons against a fast-moving target? Good luck with that.

I thought I addressed this issue a while back. Hmm, okay Ill take that.....well I addressed it in my head. So there.

If you think you need to put a ballistae bolt or what have you into a fast-moving object at range then youre gonna need at least two things...

1) The ability to deliver a large number of your ordinance of choice to a small field of fire

2) The ability to put your enemy in that field at a time of your choosing...

There is no Bard the Bowman taking a shot at a single scale and piercing a dragon with his special arrow of dragon slaying or whatever that was all about...poor Smaug.

Hence all that speaking about setting the battlefield before hand. Oh and the ambush of opportunity idea spoke to this indirectly. However you do it, you need to define where and when the dragon will be in place. Theres three of em so that complicates things but thats beyond my ken.

Theres lots of ways to counter airpower to push back an invader....See Afghanistan in the 70s and Vietnam of the 60s. The

And yes I meant Dragons were the natural predator of the Other. Oh and as we dont know exactly what the horn does, nevermind who could have made it...either side could have made the damn thing.

I need a nap

 

[Boaz]

Aegon, thanks for sharing your expertise and for quoting Gordon Gecko!

So, are any of the commanders in Westeros shrewd enough to realistically plan a defense against Dragons?

Mace? No way.
Loras? No.
Kevan? Perhaps.
Randyll? Certainly.
Littlefinger? Yes.
Jaime? No. I think Jaime would bend the knee and work on assassination at a later date.
Jon? Absolutely, he's the key to the story.
Stannis? Yes, but it would be a bad plan.
Euron? He came up with THE PLAN before anyone even knew Dragons were part of the problem.
Victarion? No.
Asha? Maybe.
Doran? His plan is to be on the Dragon's side.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Great post Boazie (feel the mutual love)....geez get a room.

The question isnt how to stop a dragon. Its who can adapt to this new element of battle? And youre completely right about everyone except Littlefinger. I dont think he has the proper background to even attempt (more like he would sue for peace and contrive something elsewhere which in a sense is an acceptable defense)

I think you should put Randyll and Stannis in the same boat. I think both would come up with a plan and it would both be very costly in terms of mens lives. In Randylls case it might work...well I guess Stannis has an outside shot of succeeding because Lady M is whispering in his ear (maybe not Davos and that just makes me sad). By counterpoint we know Jons would be brilliant and lose two men when they didnt listen to him or something like that.

There really arent any battle-commander types left are there? Geez what is George saying about the relative strengths of military versus politics?