Question re Secret Keepers...

Erin99

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I read this on Rowling's website, and something's confusing me:

What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?

JK Rowling: I was surprised that this question won, because it is not the one that I'd have voted for… but hey, if this is what you want to know, this is what you want to know!

When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.

Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is

"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it" (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.




Okay, if that's the case and the secret remains as it was, even if the keeper dies, who actually *saw* the Potters on the night of their death? Weren't they under the charm and, therefore, invisible -- even if dead and invisible?

I'm assuming that Hagrid didn't know their location, since he wasn't (I think) a close friend of the Potters. So how exactly did he see their bodies, if they were under the charm, and also how could he have rescued Harry from the rubble of his house? Dumbledore couldn't have revealed the Potters' location to Hagrid, only Wormtail could.

Maybe I've read the books wrong or something, but wouldn't Wormtail only have told the secret to Sirius, Lupin, Dumbledore, and the Deatheaters; therefore, still keeping the secret from everyone else? Because once Vold. killed Harry's parents, I'm wondering who could actually *see* their dead bodies? Shouldn't their house, as wrecked as it was, still be hidden under the charm? If it was, and not many people were privy to the secret location, they wouldn't have been able to find the Potters.

Also, was it their house that was under the charm, or was it the Potters themselves? Either way, I don't understand how certain people could see them dead. Maybe once the Potters were pulled from their house (I'm assuming it was the house under the charm, not the people), they became visible again, and not covered by the charm...

What am I not understanding here? :confused:
 
There is always the possibility that when the subject of the secret is killed, the charm breaks. It would seem likely that that is the case. Being the charm was made to protect them from bodily harm, it's feasible that when bodily harm comes to them - amounting in death - the secret is, quite literally, out.
 
I suppose. It just seems like if the secret still lasts when the keeper has died, it would also last when the people under the charm die, too.

Yeah, you're most likely right. The simplest answer is easier!
 
Now that I think about it, I suppose it's like when the person died (won't give spoiler for any who haven't read book six) in six; Harry was freed from his bind.

Why didn't I think of that before! Perhaps my mind's racing off with too many theories! :)
 
Hang on, Harry was a Potter (obviously!). If the charm protected the Potters, surely Hagrid/anybody to this day, shouldn't be able to see him since he's still under the charm, in a sense?

If, as you say, once the subject of the charm dies, so does the spell ... well, Harry is still alive; therefore, the spell should still be in effect too.

Oh dear, I am muddling things now... ;)
 
Hmm, interesting point. I'd have to go back and reread and see if the charm included Harry. If I remember correctly it was said to keep Lilly and James's location secret (it wouldn't be necessary to include Harry in the charm, as he would obviously be with the two of them), but I could definitely be wrong.
 
Actually, that makes sense. You see? If Harry was under the charm, nobody would be able to see him, including his relatives, friends, schoolmates and teachers. So, it makes sense the charm didn't include him....or was broken upon the death of his parents...

Or (as I'm putting on my flame shield) there is the chance that Rowling is not infallible and didn't think this particular point through to a great degree. I admit that's hard to believe, being that she's been one of those writers who's kept things consistent and without many holes...
 
That's what I'd come up with (that she's not infallible). Although, as she has said many times, she does get things wrong.

Personally, I think it would be a bit strange for the Potters not to include their own son in the charm, especially if he's the one Volemort's looking for since of the prophecy. Each to their own...


I'd have to go back and reread and see if the charm included Harry

Oh -- and I've gone back and re-read; it doesn't say specifically.
 
Blast it all, Leisha! You've gone and posed a question that has the possibility of never getting answered (in book 7) and now it's going to bug me.

Thanks!

;)
 
I am sorry. I saw this thread, thought it would be interesting but then you two go and do multipul posts within minutes if your last one. Cant you just edit them? It would make it simpler for me.

Other then that, I'm lost.
 
Hmmm, interesting, although I do not recall anything that says the subject of a secret would be invisible.

I thought that the Potters were holed up, probably getting deliveries for groceries and so forth, while nobody knew where they were because they couldnt tell anyone or even indicate on a map, or drive there even, as it would divulge the secret.

Invisibility never came into it I think.
 
I am sorry. I saw this thread, thought it would be interesting but then you two go and do multipul posts within minutes if your last one. Cant you just edit them? It would make it simpler for me.

Other then that, I'm lost.

Sorry! Sometimes I get so caught up in an idea that I just press "Post", not "Edit"! I'll try to remember. Oh, and I also have a habit of logging out once I think I've finished posting. Next time I'll stay logged in, then I can edit my posts.

As to Barristan's idea: I kind of thought it would be like Sirius' house -- you can't see it (or the Potters) until the secret-keeper revealed it. Therefore, you could be standing next to them, but unless you knew it, you'd never be able to tell. Remember when Harry watched Grimauld (spelling?) Place appear before his eyes?
 
I've never really thought that it renders the house or family invisible...I've always held the idea that it's like the muggle-repelling charms: if someone gets close, they suddenly decide they need to be somewhere else, or their eyes just slip right over the house/person etc without actually seeing them. I can remember in one of the books, someone (I forget who!) describes how Voldemort could have his nose pressed against the Potters window but still not realise they are there. I guess this is akin to invisibility, but not exactly the same.

I also realise this isn't actually answering the the question, but I thought I'd add it anyway! :D
 
I've never really thought that it renders the house or family invisible...I've always held the idea that it's like the muggle-repelling charms: if someone gets close, they suddenly decide they need to be somewhere else, or their eyes just slip right over the house/person etc without actually seeing them. I can remember in one of the books, someone (I forget who!) describes how Voldemort could have his nose pressed against the Potters window but still not realise they are there. I guess this is akin to invisibility, but not exactly the same.

I also realise this isn't actually answering the the question, but I thought I'd add it anyway! :D

Which book was that in? I love to read it.
 
Ooh, blimey...I'm thinking it's probably the third, seeing as that's when we find out about the Secret Keepers.

All right, all right, I'll go and check :D

Ah, suddenly remembered the section! It's where Harry overhears the adults talking in the Three Broomsticks. So, (hopefully the copy will be the same!) Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, pg 152, at the very bottom! :)
 
Okay, I've read it. Thanks!

But I've realised it's a paradox. From reading the excerpt I posted in my first post, it sounds as if it was the house under the charm, not the Potters themselves. If this is the case, however, then the bit in the book that HoopyFood pointed out, about Voldemort pressing his nose against the glass, couldn't work; the house would be invisible, just like Grimauld Place was to Harry at first. So Voldemort wouldn't be able to press his nose up against the glass -- he wouldn't be able to see a house there! Or so I'm assuming...

Therefore, the only conclusion is that it's the Potters themselves that are under the charm. But then Harry would be invisible/hidden from everyone since he, I think, is still under the charm!

Aaaargh! :eek:

I'll just pretend I never came up with this... Or even better, I'm just going to convince myself that once his parents died, that broke the charm for everyone, including Harry (even though I can't see that happening because it would kind of be pointless: three people under the charm. Two die, leaving the other now vulnerable. Seems a bit silly, since everyone needs protecting, regardless of who could die. You'd think the charm would acknowledge the chance of some people being killed whilst under its effects, thus leaving the others still protected...)

*whistles* What topic? I never asked a question...

BTW - I love your username Hoopy! Just kind of rolls off the tongue... :p
 
Simple solution to all this - Wormtail told him the secret.

Told who? Harry? I don't think that would have an effect. If you mean Voldemort, I could possibly see that working. Maybe the spell hid the Potters from everyone, with the spefic intention to hide them from Voldemort. Thus, when Voldemort heard the secret, the spell was void.
 
Ok I get it all now (just had to reread the whole thread).

I never thought of the being hidden was from everyone. I thought it was only from the person that you didnt want to find you. So for the Potters that would have been Death Eaters and Voldy. Since Wormtail was a D.E. he could tell the others then they could see them as well.

With 12 Grimould Place it was hidden to everyone who didnt know the address of it and all muggles.
 
Ok I get it all now (just had to reread the whole thread).

I never thought of the being hidden was from everyone. I thought it was only from the person that you didnt want to find you. So for the Potters that would have been Death Eaters and Voldy. Since Wormtail was a D.E. he could tell the others then they could see them as well.
I thought it would have to be everyone, since at the time Dumbledore suspected someone from the good side to be passing on info to the Deatheaters (a.k.a. Wormtail). So until they knew who to trust, the Potters would have to be hidden from everyone, just in case. Remember, even Remus suspected Sirius, and vice-versa.

And I'm not sure a spell could only detect "Deatheaters and Voldemort". If it could, they'd have rounded up all the V. supporters and done it on them, thus finding out who was loyal and who was not. Actually, wouldn't that make the books so much shorter if they could?! It would've saved Harry so much trouble... :D

With 12 Grimould Place it was hidden to everyone who didnt know the address of it and all muggles.
So everyone, then!
 
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