ADWD Publish Date? (I hope not)

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Not that I want to feed the troll or anything but I was always under the impression that Jon in fact did not look like Ned. In AGoT Jon is said to resemble Arya the most and then Arya is said to be horse-faced like Neds sister. Which by extension makes Jon resemble his "aunt". I dont recall any specific "Jon looks like Ned" kinda comparison.

Feel free to correct me

 

[Boaz]

Feel free to correct me

Like I really need permission!

My memory goes along the lines of Aegon's thinking.

Robb and Sansa (and Bran and Rickon) look like Catelyn. Arya does not look like any of her brothers and sisters. She resembles Jon more than her true siblings. Eddard told Arya she looks like Lyanna. Thus Jon resembles Lyanna and Ned.

But I also half remember Catelyn hating Jon for looking like Ned. Or do I half remember Tyrion comparing Jon's appearance to Ned?

 

[BridgerandObie]

But I also half remember Catelyn hating Jon for looking like Ned. Or do I half remember Tyrion comparing Jon's appearance to Ned?

You're correct that was one of Catelyn's reasons for animosity toward Jon, along with the fact that Ned treated Jon as fairly as Robb and his other true born children.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Not that Im doubting ya B.O. Can I call ya B.O.? It would seem to me Catelyn had an axe to grind with Jon. Without some other perspective to offer similar testimony Im gonna call Cat observations suspect.

I think maybe she was referring to general things like coloring and whatnot, she does say seem to think about how all the kids favor her save Arya and obviously Jon. I dont know, I think maybe Neds observation about Arya looking like his sister and Arya thinking Jon looked most like her is most telling. Neither of those two have any perceivable biases.

Oh well, this one is minor enough Im just commenting because Im bored.

 

[AandKsavetheDAY]

I don't think Jon was spot on look alike Ned, but Catelyn definately disliked the fact that he was more Stark-like than most of her children: Rob, sansa, bran and Rickon all have Tully auburn hair, etc., and only Jon and Arya have the dark hair etc. that is like Ned's. This doesn't really mean anything other than they both got Stark characteristics from a parent.

 

[The Rabid Bunny]

Sorry, but correct me if I'm wrong... Didn't Ned say that Jon looks like Arya, who looks like Lyanna? I always thought of this as Martin's way of hinting that Lyanna was Jon's mother.

 

[The Rabid Bunny]

OK...So I know this has already probably been discussed but I want to mention it anyway...I have no one to discuss the books with personally...

Am I correct in thinking that Jon and Dany are meant to meet up, and Jon is to become one of the "heads" of the dragon? It seems pretty logical that, if this were so, Jon would have both Stark and Targaryan blood. Since they seem to be the two families that are of extreme import..

Of course Martin seems to like to go the completely illogical route. Jon is probably actually the son of Tywin Lannister and Caitlyn Stark...

 

[Crisspin]

OK...So I know this has already probably been discussed but I want to mention it anyway...I have no one to discuss the books with personally...

Am I correct in thinking that Jon and Dany are meant to meet up, and Jon is to become one of the "heads" of the dragon? It seems pretty logical that, if this were so, Jon would have both Stark and Targaryan blood. Since they seem to be the two families that are of extreme import..

Of course Martin seems to like to go the completely illogical route. Jon is probably actually the son of Tywin Lannister and Caitlyn Stark...

you should post over in the thread about jon. There is a lot of speculation over there.

http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/4246-spoilers-theory-on-jon.html

I believe the popular theory is that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

[Boaz]

I have no one to discuss the books with personally...

Welcome! This is why I'm here, too.

In my mind, since Aemon's death there are now only three or four Targaryen/Targaryen bastards left. Danaerys, Jon, baby Aegon (Rhaegar's son), and Tyrion.

 

[Werthead]

I think you mean heirs. Baby Aegon (if he survived) and Daenerys were both legitimate. And the Tyrion-as-Aerys'-Son Theory seems to have lost a lot of ground in the last few years. If that was the case GRRM would have seeded more clues into the earlier novels.

 

[BridgerandObie]

Welcome! This is why I'm here, too.

In my mind, since Aemon's death there are now only three or four Targaryen/Targaryen bastards left. Danaerys, Jon, baby Aegon (Rhaegar's son), and Tyrion.

Me too. I get laughed at amongst my circle of peers if I even mention I read, much less fantasy.

I've read the series three times but I've missed the hint or speculation that young Aegon was possibly spared or missing when the Lannisters came knocking on Dragonstone. Where can this be found?

 

[The Rabid Bunny]

Yeah, I don't remember reading anything about Aegon surviving...Also, where did this Tyrion, son of Aerys, thing come from? I must not have read my books very well. I've seen mention of the question of Tyrion's parentage before and thought it was just a typo. Boy, am I late to the party or what?

 

[Boaz]

B&O and TRB, neither theory has any solid support in the books or on these forums. They just happen to be two of the crackpot and conspiracy theories that I personally enjoy.

I don't think there is any evidence for baby Aegon surviving, but the theory goes like this (sorry this is going to be long): Elia and her two children seemed to have been killed in the sack of KL. Elia and her daughter were recognizable, but Gregor had taken Aegon by his feet and swung him against a wall... leaving only an unrecognizable bloody mass for a head... a positive ID was assumed for Aegon. But what if a quick thinking servant or Elia switched Aegon with another baby? Gregor would not have stopped to make a positive ID on an infant dressed in the Prince's baby clothes before he killed it. Fast forward fifteen years to the time of Robert's death... if Aegon had survived who would he be? Jon and the Darkstar are the most mentioned, but it seems that Jon is a year too young and Darkstar is at least three years too old.

As for Tyrion being a Targaryen, and mind you there is not a shred of evidence (but I must say I like this theory), the theory goes like this (sorry this is going to be long and remember it's all wishful thinking and wild speculation): Tywin Lannister served the Mad King Aerys as Hand. Tywin left abruptly over some dispute with Aerys. This parting occured about the time Tyrion was born. It may have been because Aerys chose to marry Rhaegar to Elia of Dorne and not to Cersei. Or maybe it was something else?

We know that no one ever said no to Aerys... or he'd kill them. He raped his own wife and the Kingsguard did nothing. Suppose Tywin went off on a trip of a week or more to deal with some issue when he was Hand. Suppose Aerys had a fondness for Joanna, Tywin's wife. Suppose Aerys took her by force. The Kingsguard would have done nothing... Jaime was only about eight or nine at the time. Suppose Tywin knew of Aery's fondness for Joanna. Suppose Tywin sent Joanna back to Casterly Rock to be out of Aery's reach. Suppose that Twyin then finds out that Joanna is pregnant and he knows she got pregnant right around the time he sent her back home.

We know Tyrion's hair is so blonde it's almost white... Targaryens have white hair, Lannistes have blonde. Tyrion has one green eye and one black... Lannisters have green eyes and Targaryens have purple eyes... but purple can be so dark it appears almost black. Tyrion's body is twisted and warped... the Lannisters are beautiful and the Targaryens are beautiful, but the mind and sould of Aerys are totally corrupt... and this could water the seed in Tywin's mind that Joanna was raped or unfaithful. We know Tyrion has a deep fascination for dragons. We know Tyrion has a passion for the history of the Targaryen dynasty. We know that Tyrion used fire to save KL... fire, according to Aerys was the Champion of House Targaryen. Tywin refused to allow Tyrion to inherit Casterly Rock... he was not Tywin's heir.

Aemon Targaryen called Tyrion a giant... a powerful force to be reckoned with, maybe he sensed the blood of kings? Sansa wanted to marry the son of the king... perhaps she is married to a man who is the son of the last Targen king. Tyrion hotly resents being short... he told Bran "on horseback you'll be as tall as any of them"... well, on dragonback Tyrion would be taller than any of them. Why did Tywin viciously pillage King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion? Why didn't he just order his troops to invest the Red Keep and to take as many of the royal family prisoners for Robert to deal with? I think this was his big chance to vent his anger upon Aerys. Why did Tywin choose to bed Shae? Could he be trying to get back at Aerys after all these years by proving he's more potent than Aerys and his son?

 

[Werthead]

The evidence for Tyrion-as-a-Targ is a bit tenuous to be honest, plus:

SPOILER

Spoiler

GRRM seemingly ruled it out by saying that not all the 'three heads of the dragon' need to be Targaryens in response to a discussion about Tyrion being one of those possible heads.

The evidence for Baby Aegon Surviving is stronger (although it doesn't require Baby Aegon to be any of the established characters) and goes like this:

POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR ADWD

Spoiler

Rhaegar thought that Aegon was the 'Song of Ice and Fire', as we saw in ACoK in the vision Dany has in the House of the Undying. Rhaegar apparently believed that Aegon was the Prince Who Was Promised until he died. We can assume thus that in his view and possibly Elia's, who was also in the same vision, Aegon's survival was for more important than their own for the future salvation of the realm (since they believed that Aegon would save the realm from the Others). With King's Landing in danger, it seems possible that Elia and her servants would have concocted a plan to save Aegon.

Assuming a servant did sneak the baby out of the city, where would they take it? The other Targaryens were on Dragonstone, which was under blockade by Stannis and Paxter Redwyne's ships within weeks of the Battle of the Trident. Obviously staying in the Seven Kingdoms was highly dangerous. What would be needed would be a friendly refuge on the eastern continent. However, Elia would not have known who to trust and who not to. She'd have placed her trust in one of Rhaegar's closest friends and, hey presto!, sitting in the Free Cities seriously annoyed at being exiled for no good reason we have Rhaegar's friend Jon Connington (and former Hand of the King who was exiled after losing the Battle of the Bells, referenced in ASoS). Baby Aegon could have been sent into exile with Connington.

This is backed up by Tyrion's second chapter in ADWD (read out at cons by GRRM) in which Tyrion learns from Ilyrio that he is going to meet 'Griff', the head of a mercenary company, and his 'son' 'Young Griff', who seems to be held in special importance. And the symbol of House Connington is a griffon.

Not watertight, certainly, but a reasonable hypothesis which, most importantly, is backed up by some events in the books before this point.

 

[AandKsavetheDAY]

Aegon being still alive would be a definite twist, but does that mean that they just got another baby for Gregor to smash? Just a thought.
The theory on Tyrion being a Targaryen is, in my opinion, not the best. Tyrion, as Genna Lannister said, is truly his father's son. He's got the same ruthless cunning that Tywin has. He isn't hated for any reasons other than his stature and his mother's death when he was born. If he was truly Aegon's kid, Tywin would have killed him.

 

[Boaz]

Good job, Wert. Thanks.

 

[The Rabid Bunny]

Wow, you guys have really put alot of thought into this... I personally have seen entirely too many important or semi-important characters die as well as too many lesser characters gain notariety to form many theories. It's fun hearing what everyone else thinks, though...

Oh, and if Ned isn't Jon's father (which I like the Lyanna and Raegar theory), why does he constantly beat himself up about it? Doesn't he refrain from judging others harshly in their misdeeds because he fathered a *******?

 

[Werthead]

Wow, you guys have really put alot of thought into this... I personally have seen entirely too many important or semi-important characters die as well as too many lesser characters gain notariety to form many theories. It's fun hearing what everyone else thinks, though...

Oh, and if Ned isn't Jon's father (which I like the Lyanna and Raegar theory), why does he constantly beat himself up about it? Doesn't he refrain from judging others harshly in their misdeeds because he fathered a *******?

Re-reading AGoT is a very illuminating experience. He never thinks in his own POV, "I fathered a *******, I'm such a git!" He does, however, think about Jon, wishes he could sit down and tell him something and he thinks - virtually every single chapter of his - about a promise he made to Lyanna as she lay dying that made him feel extremely guilty. If R+L=J is true, then keeping that promise (to raise Ned as his own and pretend he's his own) has meant that Ned has had to lie repeatedly to his wife, to his children, to Jon and to his best friends, Robert Baratheon and Jon Arryn. That is where his guilt and beatin-up on himself comes from (if the theory is true).

There are two people still living who know the truth: Howland Reed (who was with Ned at the Tower of Joy) and Wylla (Ashara Dayne's confidante and servant, who was Ned's nursemaid for a short period after he was born before Ned took him to Winterfell). However, I strongly suspect that Barristan Selmy and Jon Connington, as friends of Rhaegar Targaryen, may have suspicions over what happened as well.

 

[TK-421]

Well, the evidence is mounting. 'Young Griff' eh?

 

[Tysha]

The clues about Aegon beind alive: When Dany enters The House of the Undying Ones, one of the prophecy sights was:

The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”
“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”
More details at: http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/8403-the-dragon-has-three-heads-11.html​