The Revived Tolkien Trivia
- Thread starter Marky Lazer
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Hurin, according to the index at least was called Hurin the Strong (as well as the steadfast), which would match up with Beleg Strongbow. (whereas Hurin the Steadfast doesn't really match up with Beleg Strongbow in my opinion.)
However I can't find Hurin the Strong in the main text anywhere.
Furthermore, you asked us to explain where the nicknames came from.
Although I seem to remember some sort of explanation of why Beleg was called Strongbow somewhere (at one of the bigger battles?) I haven't found it, nor of course an explanation of Hurin the strong.(The Steadfast is fairly obvious.)
As you asked the question, can you enlighten us as to the origins of the names? (or leave us longer to find them ourselves.)
However I can't find Hurin the Strong in the main text anywhere.
Furthermore, you asked us to explain where the nicknames came from.
Although I seem to remember some sort of explanation of why Beleg was called Strongbow somewhere (at one of the bigger battles?) I haven't found it, nor of course an explanation of Hurin the strong.(The Steadfast is fairly obvious.)
As you asked the question, can you enlighten us as to the origins of the names? (or leave us longer to find them ourselves.)
Boaz
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Oh, I just wanted the word thalion... the word that both Hurin Thalion and Beleg Cuthalion have in common. I don't know all of what Tolkien intended, but thalion sort of looks and sounds like the lion. Hurin the lion. Strong. Steadfast. Tolkien sort of did the same thing with Mordor... and murder.
In The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 21, Of Turin Turambar, both Thingol and Melian address Beleg as Cuthalion. He was one of the chief March Wardens of Doriath. Beleg had already unleashed Anglachel, the Black Sword, in his battles in Dimbar, but it is telling that in his stay among the outlaws that the land became known as "Dor-Cuarthol, the Land of Bow and Helm." Turin wore the Dragon-helm of Dor-lomin and Beleg bore the great sword Anglachel, yet the land was not known as the Land of Sword and Helm. Even though he had a famous sword, Beleg's prowess as a bowman is how he was known. Strongbow.
And in the paragraph where Beleg came to Amon Rudh, the text says... "And because Beleg was strong and enduring...."
As for Hurin in The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 18, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin, Hurin is described as "great in mind and body" and "tireless and enduring in body" at the Dagor Bragollach.
And later in Chapter 20, Hurin is the chief captain urging the Noldor and the Edain to stick to the battle plan. Dauntless. Of the reaguard action during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the text says, "of all the deeds of war that the fathers of Men wrought in behalf of the Eldar, the last stand of the men of Dor-lomin is most renowned. Steadfast.
Near the end of Chapter 20, "Hurin was brought before Morgoth... but Hurin defied him, and mocked him. Then Morgoth cursed Hurin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow... but it is not said that Hurin asked ever of Morgoth either mercy or death, for himself or for any of his kin."
The fifth paragraph of Chapter 21has the first mention of "Hurin the Steadfast." And thalion is first linked to Hurin by Gwindor at Eithel Ivrin, "Awake, Turin son of Hurin Thalion."
Just my observations and opinions.
In The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 21, Of Turin Turambar, both Thingol and Melian address Beleg as Cuthalion. He was one of the chief March Wardens of Doriath. Beleg had already unleashed Anglachel, the Black Sword, in his battles in Dimbar, but it is telling that in his stay among the outlaws that the land became known as "Dor-Cuarthol, the Land of Bow and Helm." Turin wore the Dragon-helm of Dor-lomin and Beleg bore the great sword Anglachel, yet the land was not known as the Land of Sword and Helm. Even though he had a famous sword, Beleg's prowess as a bowman is how he was known. Strongbow.
And in the paragraph where Beleg came to Amon Rudh, the text says... "And because Beleg was strong and enduring...."
As for Hurin in The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 18, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin, Hurin is described as "great in mind and body" and "tireless and enduring in body" at the Dagor Bragollach.
And later in Chapter 20, Hurin is the chief captain urging the Noldor and the Edain to stick to the battle plan. Dauntless. Of the reaguard action during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the text says, "of all the deeds of war that the fathers of Men wrought in behalf of the Eldar, the last stand of the men of Dor-lomin is most renowned. Steadfast.
Near the end of Chapter 20, "Hurin was brought before Morgoth... but Hurin defied him, and mocked him. Then Morgoth cursed Hurin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow... but it is not said that Hurin asked ever of Morgoth either mercy or death, for himself or for any of his kin."
The fifth paragraph of Chapter 21has the first mention of "Hurin the Steadfast." And thalion is first linked to Hurin by Gwindor at Eithel Ivrin, "Awake, Turin son of Hurin Thalion."
Just my observations and opinions.
Yes. I'm sorry. I started looking for something a bit challenging and couldn't find anything that hadn't been done already or was far too complicated.
So something fairly straightforward.
Where can you see stars while the sun is shining bright? And which stars can you see.
So something fairly straightforward.
Where can you see stars while the sun is shining bright? And which stars can you see.
I'm on holiday without access to the books, but I think I recognise the reference. In case it helps anyone, I think it was a deep canyon or crevice or well, and I remember thinking that Tolkien had got his physics wrong, because the depth of the place alone wouldn't affect how much light was in the sky and so whether the stars were visible, which was the implication. But I might be wrong, because the bit I'm thinking of, I don't remember him mentioning specific stars.
Well now HB, to quote Frodo in Crickhollow, 'I think that it was a good guess, as far as it goes.'
However I would suggest that if the stars are not named then maybe there are no stars at all. I always assumed that what the character was refering to by name were stars.
Of course the name is not our name, but can probably be recognised as an equivalent, in the same way that it's clear to me that Menelvagor, with his shining belt, named not long before we get to Crickhollow is Orion.
The reference in question would certainly appear to be in the same sky as Menelvagor although, of course, the reference may have been made sometime earlier or later. So indeed, the sky may then have been straight or bent.
However I would suggest that if the stars are not named then maybe there are no stars at all. I always assumed that what the character was refering to by name were stars.
Of course the name is not our name, but can probably be recognised as an equivalent, in the same way that it's clear to me that Menelvagor, with his shining belt, named not long before we get to Crickhollow is Orion.
The reference in question would certainly appear to be in the same sky as Menelvagor although, of course, the reference may have been made sometime earlier or later. So indeed, the sky may then have been straight or bent.
I had thought that it was the same place that the Smeerp had in mind - a short diversion to look at an ethnic wonder before continuing seeking safety - but when I looked it up, there were no specific stars mentioned, just a comparison with precious stones...
Ok. So I think you've both got it, in fact.
What I was looking for is Mirrormere, described soon after the escape from Moria.
There like jewels sunk in the deep shone glinting stars, though sunlight was in the sky above.
But is not the speech, immediately after the said comparison, giving a name to the stars?
Gimli says There lies the Crown of Durin till he wakes.
Or is it just something supposedly to be found in the depths. I'd always read it as the former.
Searching for the name via Google, it would certainly I am not the only one.
Taken from the TOLKIEN GATEWAY site:
Durin's Crown a constellation of Seven Stars mentioned in the lore of the Dwarves. According to the legend, it appeared as a crown above Durin's reflection in Mirrormere despite the fact it was day; he saw it as a good omen and built Khazad-dûm in the valley of Azanulbizar. Durin's Stone was set to commemorate the location and the event.
Anyway. Well done both of you.
I think it's Harebrain's turn.
What I was looking for is Mirrormere, described soon after the escape from Moria.
There like jewels sunk in the deep shone glinting stars, though sunlight was in the sky above.
But is not the speech, immediately after the said comparison, giving a name to the stars?
Gimli says There lies the Crown of Durin till he wakes.
Or is it just something supposedly to be found in the depths. I'd always read it as the former.
Searching for the name via Google, it would certainly I am not the only one.
Taken from the TOLKIEN GATEWAY site:
Durin's Crown a constellation of Seven Stars mentioned in the lore of the Dwarves. According to the legend, it appeared as a crown above Durin's reflection in Mirrormere despite the fact it was day; he saw it as a good omen and built Khazad-dûm in the valley of Azanulbizar. Durin's Stone was set to commemorate the location and the event.
Anyway. Well done both of you.
I think it's Harebrain's turn.
Boaz
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Gah!!! I almost tore apart one of my four copies of The Silmarillion trying to find the answer in the descriptions of Taur nu Fuin, Nan Dungortheb, Nan Elmoth, Taniquetl, the rising of the Sun, Beleriand in general, Elwe's meeing Melian, Beren's meeting Luthien, etc.... I should have remembered the Kheled-zaram.
Hmm: I've always read it as Durin's Crown being under the waters of the Mirrormere.
Consider:
`There lies the Mirrormere, deep Kheled-zâram! ' said Gimli sadly....(setting up the name of the lake)
...There like jewels sunk in the deep shone glinting stars, though sunlight was in the sky above. Of their own stooping forms no shadow could be seen.
'O Kheled-zâram fair and wonderful! ' said Gimli. `There lies the Crown of Durin till he wakes. Farewell!' (my emphasis).
(LotR: FotR: Book II: Ch. 6: Lothlórien)
Now, if the Crown of Durin had been the stars, I would have expected 'a ring of glinting stars' or 'a circlet of glinting stars'. But no, Gimli refers specifically to the lake and then to the Crown.
Not that it matters, but it's interesting that there should be such ambiguity - however, the Index specifically identifies the Crown of Durin as the Plough, the Seven Stars: however again, the illustration of the emblems of Durin on the door into Moria don't look anything like the Plough - they're in an inverted "V" shape over a crowned helmet:
One thing we agree on, though: it's HareBrain's turn...
Consider:
`There lies the Mirrormere, deep Kheled-zâram! ' said Gimli sadly....(setting up the name of the lake)
...There like jewels sunk in the deep shone glinting stars, though sunlight was in the sky above. Of their own stooping forms no shadow could be seen.
'O Kheled-zâram fair and wonderful! ' said Gimli. `There lies the Crown of Durin till he wakes. Farewell!' (my emphasis).
(LotR: FotR: Book II: Ch. 6: Lothlórien)
Now, if the Crown of Durin had been the stars, I would have expected 'a ring of glinting stars' or 'a circlet of glinting stars'. But no, Gimli refers specifically to the lake and then to the Crown.
Not that it matters, but it's interesting that there should be such ambiguity - however, the Index specifically identifies the Crown of Durin as the Plough, the Seven Stars: however again, the illustration of the emblems of Durin on the door into Moria don't look anything like the Plough - they're in an inverted "V" shape over a crowned helmet:
Hmm, I don't. Whatever I was thinking of, I'm pretty sure it wasn't Durin's Crown in Mirrormere -- I definitely had the image of looking upwards from the depths of a narrow defile. I think it might have been something by another writer entirely!
So if's OK, I'll pass it to Py, who obviously had the right reference.
Ah; were you thinking of the passing of Aragorn and the Grey Company through the Paths of the Dead in RotK?
...a road between sheer cliffs, knife-edged against the sky far above. So deep and narrow was that chasm that the sky was dark, and in it small stars glinted. Yet as Gimli after learned it was still two hours ere sunset of the day on which they had set out from Dunharrow;
Lotr: ROTK: Book V: Ch.2: The Passing of the Grey Company
...a road between sheer cliffs, knife-edged against the sky far above. So deep and narrow was that chasm that the sky was dark, and in it small stars glinted. Yet as Gimli after learned it was still two hours ere sunset of the day on which they had set out from Dunharrow;
Lotr: ROTK: Book V: Ch.2: The Passing of the Grey Company
I was! Brilliant work, Py. (And sorry, JRRT, that's just not credible.)
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