Swearing in books

[Frank menser]

Gadzucks says I!
you can't deny
The steaming verbs in prose.
There are those who yearn
To let them burn.
Tis 'free speech' I suppose.

I can't deny
I do decry
The purpling of the page.
I prefer mine neat
And verbally sweet
Those coarse tones make me rage!

Profanity is an art practiced by too many with too little skill. Thus opinionated am I...Damn it!

~Frank

at attempts to launder

 

[Duchessprozac]

Profanity is an art practiced by too many with too little skill. Thus opinionated am I...Damn it!

I really don't agree with this. Often a character uses profanity as they are not the kind of person able to string a verbose and poetic insult together.

Also many people swear when under pressure or angry as it is an instant stress reliever that use of any other word would not suffice at that given time.

I must add, that in my current work, My characters swear where people would normally use religious profanity (By the Gods, damn, Hell, etc.) as there is no religion in my world for these terms to make sense so they use sexual and scatalogical cursing instead. Yes, it makes the work much courser but it is internally consistent with my world.

 

[Pyan]

But that can quickly become laughable, which may or may not be helpful. Not that I'm saying yours are laughable, Py...

Can't claim any credit for any of them, Cul - they're all quotes from well-known authors and TV series.

 

[Lith]

Theed- I was just punning. I know they're interchangeable.


The ums, uhs, likes, and swear words all fall into the same category of filler words. Swear words can ge beyond that to actual swearing, but a good percentage of them are just filling space, and that's largely why they need to be taken out of dialogue- rather than strengthen a phrase, they often end up weakening it, or act like crutches to properly strong language.

I see no reason older forms of English were not filled with likes, uhs, and ums; but not being proper words they wouldn't have written them down. In fact tracing the history of swear words is difficult because they were so infrequently written down, not being "proper" words then. Considering the time involved, writing was for important things which naturally required a bit more thought and formality (like dressing for dinner), so it's understandable they left a lot of little vulgarities out of it.

Which is not to say that one must always leave swear words out, only that a lot of them can be left out with no negative (and probably with positive) results.

 

[Theed]

Theed- I was just punning. I know they're interchangeable.


The ums, uhs, likes, and swear words all fall into the same category of filler words. Swear words can ge beyond that to actual swearing, but a good percentage of them are just filling space, and that's largely why they need to be taken out of dialogue- rather than strengthen a phrase, they often end up weakening it, or act like crutches to properly strong language.

I see no reason older forms of English were not filled with likes, uhs, and ums; but not being proper words they wouldn't have written them down. In fact tracing the history of swear words is difficult because they were so infrequently written down, not being "proper" words then. Considering the time involved, writing was for important things which naturally required a bit more thought and formality (like dressing for dinner), so it's understandable they left a lot of little vulgarities out of it.

Which is not to say that one must always leave swear words out, only that a lot of them can be left out with no negative (and probably with positive) results.

I blame late-nightitis on no humor

I do agree with you that a lot of swear words that I've read can be left out. I think if one would use them, they need to be used in a way that does not take away from the dialogue, but adds to it. Like a lot of others have said, and I agree, using them too much gets old quick. I think if they're used sparringly and if the character would actually say what is said, and if it adds to a certain section, then I believe it's okay.

 

[MissGuidedFee]

I sometimes use swearing in stories I've written,then sometimes I don't. Im not really aware of it most of the time, it usually just comes naturally depending on the character! I didn't even realise a certain piece had swearing in it until I posted it here and the site blanked the word out.

 

[Daniel Hetberg]

In one book I read (The Bourne Ultimate, by Robert Ludlum) I found one character's tendency to swear rather distracting and annoying. I don't mind the occasional swear word here and there, if it's used to actually make a point (as good swearing should), but if it is reduced to a filler word, as Lith said, it just becomes distracting and annoying.

 

[Green]

Can't claim any credit for any of them, Cul - they're all quotes from well-known authors and TV series.

Probably not ones I enjoy to read/watch What works for some, doesn't work for others.

 

[dustinzgirl]

I write some, well, less than appropriate content in some cases. I like to cuss. I drop f-bombs and the c-word and b-word like they are the only words on the planet. Why? I have no idea. Its fun, it irritates people. But that doesn't mean I write like that for every character in every story. IWhen I'm writing adult stuff, then those words are appropriate.

But in general fantasy/sci fi, cuss words should be used sparingly if ever. And you have to beware the context. I doubt a 10,000 year old Alien would use the F word ever. But the 15 year old meeting the alien just might say "F---me!" The only cuss word I can see being used a lot in fantasy is "damn" or "be damned" but then it is a curse, not a cuss. Even the word cuss used to be a curse as in "You're a nasty little cuss, ain't ya"

So in the end it boils down to: the type of story you are writing; the type of reader you are writing for; the type of characters in the story.

It has to make sense. Thats why nobody blinks when Stephen King uses the F and B words, or some of the adult novels. But if Orson Scott Card or Jane Yolen did, people would hate the stories.

And then, the made up words I also like, becuase they can be used to signify a culture...for example, Americans rarely say "bloody this" but Britts do. In Mexico you would curse someones family to piss them off (and the do get ticked) but in America we are more likely to attack the person directly. Then there are fantasy curses, I can totally see a dwarf saying "Your mother's beard was full of lice" as a curse, but an elf wouldn't say that, an elf would probably say something about the person's natural place on earth being damned or disgusting.

Point being, cursing done well doesn't HAVE to use any cuss words at all. But it should be relative to teh speaker's culture for maximum impact.

Cussing also does two things: It relieves the speakers frustration and irritates the listener.

 

[j d worthington]

Again, it comes to what the "swearing" is for. Most of our "curse words" -- cussing -- began as perfectly legitimate words that fell out of favor due to replacement by other languages -- a lot of those in English being Anglo-Saxon words which became "vulgar" as the Norman-French and Latin influences took over. Until then, they had simply been the same words in Anglo-Saxon as an equivalent word in Latin, Norman-French, Hindi, or Sanskrit (or any other language). However, using those words in modern writing would have a different connotation now because of history.

On the other hand, some words were always used as either literal curses (damn, for instance) or for increased emphasis (no actual content to the word other than to increase -- or express, if used alone -- the ability to convey the speaker's meaning or emotional state).

What Dustie says about cursewords -- either literal curses or expletives -- is quite true: Fiona Macleod's (William Sharp, that is) "The Sin Eater" has some very vituperative Gaelic curses which, in context, are both very powerful expressions of the character's emotions, and convey something very important about that person's culture... and are also, in context of that particular story, rather chilling, as they may be more than empty words -- they may have a literal effect as curses.

On the other hand, made-up profanity is very difficult to pull off without sounding inane, stupid, or stilted. I would argue that King's "The Jaunt" is such a case -- a very good story, but the cursing used there comes off feeling made-up, artificial, rootless ... and therefore silly... which mars an otherwise excellent tale (not spoils, but it does mar). So such "created cursing" should be used with caution. The best writers use it even more sparingly than the real thing, and come as close to the real thing as possible within the milieu of their world: "Adrazat's teats!" or "Melchior's balls", for instance, because then the reader actually has enough difference to add a bit about the culture of that tale, but enough familiarity to have impact as profanity. In other words, it carries the emotion it would within that place and time. Whereas when we have someone in Dante's Commedia saying "A fig on thee", we may vaguely know it's some sort of insult, but the context is lacking, so it loses the majority of its impact.

Which goes back to what I was saying earlier: You want to be realistic (or, more precisely, to have verisimilitude) with your writing, so as not avoid such words where they fit; but, as with any other sort of writing -- say, for example, someone who tends to have florid speech, or who uses very simple terms, or a poetic idiom -- you want to use it so that it actually has the impact it's intended to have and not just become white noise (unless, of course, that's the intention ... which should very seldom be the case; say, if you're trying to sketch a character for whom such words are empty counters bereft of any meaning, just sounds they'd make the same way they would grunt or use some other non-word).

 

[Anthony G Williams]

Which goes back to what I was saying earlier: You want to be realistic (or, more precisely, to have verisimilitude) with your writing, so as not avoid such words where they fit; but, as with any other sort of writing -- say, for example, someone who tends to have florid speech, or who uses very simple terms, or a poetic idiom -- you want to use it so that it actually has the impact it's intended to have and not just become white noise (unless, of course, that's the intention ... which should very seldom be the case; say, if you're trying to sketch a character for whom such words are empty counters bereft of any meaning, just sounds they'd make the same way they would grunt or use some other non-word).

You mean as in typical conversation within the average group of ill-educated adolescent boys?

What intrigues me is that, over time, some words lose their rude meaning and become respectable, while other respectable words become tainted and rude by association. For an example of the first case, I was rather startled to hear a polite American girl declare that something "really sucks!". I doubt that she was aware of the origins in fellatio. On the other hand, words to do with bodily functions keep being "euphemised", so crapper (named after the man who invented the modern flushing WC) became lavatory, then toilet and (in the USA, at least) has become bathroom and finally restroom!

I have the impression that people were more direct and honest about such matters in the past. There was a street in Norwich (and similar ones elsewhere) which in medieval times was officially called Gropekunte Lane - I needn't spell out what ancient profession was practised there. And in Pompeii I gather that an erect penis, boldy displayed, was commonly used in advertising. So when people used ""rude" words in the past, they may not have been swearing, but were just being frank. We are much more prissy these days.

 

[j d worthington]

I have the impression that people were more direct and honest about such matters in the past. There was a street in Norwich (and similar ones elsewhere) which in medieval times was officially called Gropekunte Lane - I needn't spell out what ancient profession was practised there. And in Pompeii I gather that an erect penis, boldy displayed, was commonly used in advertising. So when people used ""rude" words in the past, they may not have been swearing, but were just being frank. We are much more prissy these days.

Oh, indeed. That was my point earlier... if you look at the writers of the Restoration period ... or even if you read Swift ... you'll see things that would simply be thought extremely vulgar by today's standards. Even in the 18th century, such was often the case. We're still dealing with a holdover of attitudes from Victorianism where this is concerned -- which may be why (to get to a statement made earlier) so few people know how to use such words effectively. The writers of those earlier periods used such words, certainly; but they used them with a vigour and sharply pointed wit they've lost in the modern age. So they were sometimes just being frank, and sometimes they were swearing... the meaning and impact depended on context.

As for the phallic symbol... well, Priapic figures were often included as part of household decorations, as a nod to fertility and potency (or a request for assurance of), among other things... and this was true of many places in Greece, as well as the Roman empire aside from Pompeii (though there the god's name was different):

Priapus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(A warning for those who might be offended by graphic depictions: there are some on this link.)

Again, this means (as noted earlier) that allowances must be made for our views being different; so if you want to get across the feeling for the time, you have to find an modern equivalent -- much like a translator must when going from one language to another (Dante, for instance, is notoriously difficult for this... the idioms are simply so different, that getting the original idea and a similar contemporary reaction across at the same time are often nigh impossible; one or the other must be relegated to footnotes....)

 

[Anastasia]

Hello, first post here at the forums, though I am a long time reader.

I was curious to know people's position on swearing in books. Personally, I think it's acceptable and I don't mind it at all, if it seems real. I don't like it when those words are used just to use them, it doesn't seem natural. But, in my opinion, if the character would say it, then I don't have a problem with it at all.

I have swearing in the novel that I'm writing. It's there for one reason: because the characters themselves would say it. And it's not in abundance, either. But it is there.


Your thoughts?

A while back I wrote a short story for an amateur sci-fi/adventure website in which a character's leg got blown off. Then, as a result of this leg being blown off, the trench he was in was filled with slippery blood and his companions couldn't get him out of harm's way to save his life. Needless to say, the dialogue for this scene was filled with swearwords.

The scene was about soldiers, and my dad is an ex-soldier who assures me that people who get their limbs blown off don't say "Oh gosh, the blighters got my blasted leg!" Well, not outside the covers of a Jeeves novel. Still, the mods on this site felt my use of language was gratuitous and asked me to change it before posting.

My personal take on it is that swearing has to be appropriate to the context. If a guy has his leg blown off, he will probably swear. A gangster will probably swear. So will most soldiers (heard the expression "swear like a trooper"?). However, don't use swearing just because you think it sounds realistic, in a situation where there is no need - like all words in your writing, they have to serve a purpose. Don't put any words in you don't need - swear words included.

 

[Spectrum]

A question: What is the policy on swearing on this forum? Are there rules against it? (Because I've seen several people allude to the dreaded "F-word" in this thread, but no one has yet dared to write it.)

 

[chrispenycate]

Don't post anything you wouldn't want a thirteen year old to see (because there are a couple)
That holds not merely for language, but for excessively graphic descriptions, too.
And, while I admit that some thirteen-year olds are foul mouthed little…, one should not assume that this is the norm (or, for that matter, ours are the norm)

 

[Anastasia]

Don't post anything you wouldn't want a thirteen year old to see (because there are a couple)
That holds not merely for language, but for excessively graphic descriptions, too.
And, while I admit that some thirteen-year olds are foul mouthed little…, one should not assume that this is the norm (or, for that matter, ours are the norm)

My daughter is almost 13. She recently tried to justify watching Torchwood in her room on the grounds that she wouldn't see anything on it she couldn't see in the corridors of her school.

Well unless her school is over-run with man-eating, bisexual aliens, I somehow doubt it. Still, schools are pretty rough places these days. My daughter, bless her, thinks swearing is beneath her

 

[Culhwch]

A question: What is the policy on swearing on this forum? Are there rules against it? (Because I've seen several people allude to the dreaded "F-word" in this thread, but no one has yet dared to write it.)

As per the forum rules, handily linked in the control bar at the top of the page:

3. Please moderate your language and avoid swearing and expletives. The only exception to this is written fiction posted for critique.

Even then, if you wish to post writing of a strong nature, please consider whether a general forum is going to be a suitable place for useful feedback.

 

[dustinzgirl]

Oh, indeed. That was my point earlier... if you look at the writers of the Restoration period ... or even if you read Swift ... you'll see things that would simply be thought extremely vulgar by today's standards. Even in the 18th century, such was often the case. We're still dealing with a holdover of attitudes from Victorianism where this is concerned -- which may be why (to get to a statement made earlier) so few people know how to use such words effectively. The writers of those earlier periods used such words, certainly; but they used them with a vigour and sharply pointed wit they've lost in the modern age. So they were sometimes just being frank, and sometimes they were swearing... the meaning and impact depended on context.

I agree. All the cool cussing died with the Victorian Era, but then again, we got some way cool antiquities out of it.....man, I wish I could afford a good cranberry glass victorian era lamp--got an extra fifteen hundred frelling dollars I can have?



Now there is a made up cuss word that works well, frelling. I love it, its funny to say. I have no idea why.

My daughter tries to say FREAKING this to everything...I don't like that so much, its irksome and usually followed by the preteen eyeball roll and "whatever" which is the child version of F--- it.

 

[j d worthington]

My daughter tries to say FREAKING this to everything...I don't like that so much, its irksome and usually followed by the preteen eyeball roll and "whatever" which is the child version of F--- it.

Yes, that one amuses me, because of the origins of the term... and the fact that so few either know it, or think that we old fogeys know it.... (Also because it was used for so long in popular literature, when "f***" wasn't allowed.....)

 

[tangaloomababe]

I dont see to much swearing in books, however I think that as in real life when faced with certain circumstances or situations there is a tendency or need to swear. The book I am reading at the moment though tends to have just a bit to much swearing, some of it not terribly appropriate. This tends to detract from the book somewhat .