Foundation & Empire

[Brian G Turner]

So I needed something to read on the plane and they didn't have any Pratchett - so for light reading I picked up the second in the Foundation series, Foundation & Empire, as I'd already read the first instalment and reasonably enjoyed it.

Like the second one much more - wasn't entirely surprising (cf, The Mule) but it was nice to see how The Foundation was being overshadowed by political elements, and falling into degenerative political processes.

It's written simply and easily enough to tell a story, and tell a universe, without having to dedicate 1000 pages to follow the intricate daily lives of any mentioned sub-characer (what a relief!).

Will probably look to order the third and fourth pretty soon - just blew my birthday money, so will need to be careful on the budgeting and maybe wait to later.

Still, Foundation is again on my reading list, and looking forward to reading more.

 

[Fried Egg]

I actually enjoyed "Foundation & Empire" least that trilogy, although I still enjoyed them all thoroughly. I'm sure that you'll enjoy the last one; possibly the best of the set.

 

[ntstatic]

the Foundation triology remains the best and the most cherished of my possessions. Just the idea of someone deriving a science - pshycohistory - appears so fantastic to me.

 

[iansales]

I remember loving the trilogy as a child. But I reread it recently and was very disappointed. It just proved to me that the Golden Age of science fiction is thirteen

 

[dekket]

The highlight of Foundation and Empire is the introduction of the Mule, however it was great to see how far the Empire had fallen in only a few centuries.

 

[ghost8772]

it was more the limitations of psychohistory to pure humans only, and didn't it also introduce the idea of the Second foundation?

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Like the second one much more - wasn't entirely surprising (cf, The Mule) but it was nice to see how The Foundation was being overshadowed by political elements, and falling into degenerative political processes.

Corrupt internal politics of Foundation is already a feature of Merchant Princes.

It's written simply and easily enough to tell a story, and tell a universe, without having to dedicate 1000 pages to follow the intricate daily lives of any mentioned sub-characer (what a relief!).

And plenty of plot holes, as soon as you do try to analyze them. Where do I start?

 

[Ihe]

Corrupt internal politics of Foundation is already a feature of Merchant Princes.

And plenty of plot holes, as soon as you do try to analyze them. Where do I start?

Plotholes? I thought the plot was tight. What did I miss?

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Start at the sheer sense of scale. Asimov finally discloses the size of the Empire.
20 million worlds.
And the size of Siwenna is previously, in Big and Small, established as 20 planets.
Siwenna is one in a million regions of Empire.
Not all of these million border the Periphery, sure. But still, the Empire must have thousands of Marches.
Why do Cleon and Ammel pay even so much attention to Siwenna and Bel Riose, rather than delegate it to any of their numerous subordinates in the Marches or on Trantor?

Also:
Ducem asserts that a viceroy died a horrible death at the hand of slavish Siwennans.
How was that information public? Did the viceroy recruit his whole guard of slavish Siwennans?

 

[Ihe]

Why do Cleon and Ammel pay even so much attention to Siwenna and Bel Riose, rather than delegate it to any of their numerous subordinates in the Marches or on Trantor?

It was Bel who pushed for that mission no? And it was Bel who investigated the rumours concerning the Foundation. And Siwenna was the home of a direct witness to "the magicians" of the Foundation (Ducem), therefore the connection. Even if all my explanations are off the mark, I wouldn't consider that a plothole. I would counter your question with: why not? Not everything needs a super-related reason to make everything come full circle.

And wasn't the Vicerroy's death carried out by one of Ducem's sons to avenge their family? That would explain why Ducem knew.

I must admit it's been some time since I last read Foundation, and so I could be off the mark. The detailed parts you mention are blurry at best for me. Anyway, I don't see those "plotholes" as bearing any significant effect on the story, even if you are right. Foundation is all about scope, those "plotholes" are too specific to matter IMO.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

And wasn't the Vicerroy's death carried out by one of Ducem's sons to avenge their family? That would explain why Ducem knew.

For three years the mysterious death of that viceroy has been no mystery to me. There was a young soldier of his personal guard whose actions were of interest. You were that soldier, but there is no need of details, I think.

No, my question is: if the identity of Ducem Barr as the guilty party was not widely known at the time, and only 40 years later was Bel Riose able to solve the cold case - which as far as Ducem knew at the time of speaking was an unsolved cold case - how could Ducem specify that the killer was an unspecified Siwennan, not one of the non-Siwennans in the viceroy´s retinue? Because the viceroy for some reason recruited a retinue of Siwennans alone?

I must admit it's been some time since I last read Foundation, and so I could be off the mark. The detailed parts you mention are blurry at best for me. Anyway, I don't see those "plotholes" as bearing any significant effect on the story, even if you are right. Foundation is all about scope, those "plotholes" are too specific to matter IMO.

Um. Plenty of plotholes concern why the plot ever worked, too.

Like: why does Foundation only spend a spy - and the first spy in 40 years?
There would be an obvious alternative to losing profits to Empire´s conquest - and that´s trading with Empire itself!
Profits which no single Periphery kingdom or republic can offer.
The 4 wise merchants do not mention it - not even to dismiss it.
And that´s a huge plot hole.

 

[Ihe]

No, my question is: if the identity of Ducem Barr as the guilty party was not widely known at the time, and only 40 years later was Bel Riose able to solve the cold case - which as far as Ducem knew at the time of speaking was an unsolved cold case - how could Ducem specify that the killer was an unspecified Siwennan, not one of the non-Siwennans in the viceroy´s retinue? Because the viceroy for some reason recruited a retinue of Siwennans alone?

But Ducem knew because his son was in on the murder. And he was Siwennan. I don't get your point concerning Ducem, sorry if I'm being thick.

Um. Plenty of plotholes concern why the plot ever worked, too.

Like: why does Foundation only spend a spy - and the first spy in 40 years?
There would be an obvious alternative to losing profits to Empire´s conquest - and that´s trading with Empire itself!
Profits which no single Periphery kingdom or republic can offer.
The 4 wise merchants do not mention it - not even to dismiss it.
And that´s a huge plot hole.

The Empire could feel threatened. And they still had enough power to annihilate them (and they tried, under Bel). They were just being cautious. That's not a plothole (?). Also, Seldon wanted them far away from the Empire for a reason. They needed to not fall back into their old ways of decadence. Contact with the Empire could've "spread the disease".

 

[chornedsnorkack]

But Ducem knew because his son was in on the murder.

How? If Ducem was, at the time, a "young soldier", how old could his son have been, if he even had any by then?

And he was Siwennan. I don't get your point concerning Ducem, sorry if I'm being thick.

It was a big and, as far as Ducem knew at the time, undiscovered secret who specifically the murderer was. So how did Ducem dare specify that the murderer was Siwennan?

The Empire could feel threatened.

Threatened by what?

 

[Ihe]

How? If Ducem was, at the time, a "young soldier", how old could his son have been, if he even had any by then?

It was a big and, as far as Ducem knew at the time, undiscovered secret who specifically the murderer was. So how did Ducem dare specify that the murderer was Siwennan?

Threatened by what?

About the murder, I had to go back to re-read that bit. It wasn't his son, but he himself who had been in on the murder (my bad), that's why Ducem knew. It'd been him, or he had at least taken part in it, as he had been a soldier under the Vicerroy. It is this fact that Bel exploits, subtly blackmailing him with this knowledge to make Ducem tell him about the "magicians". The blackmail is implied and subtle, but enough to loosen Ducem's tongue a bit.

And the Empire could be threatened by the mere fact that the Foundation calls itself the "Second Empire", and that they are spreading their influence and they have superior technology. Those are reasons enough to intervene, in the eyes of an imperialist regime trying to hold on desperately to what little they have left (compared to before). Reasons stupid, if not stupider, than these have been wielded to bully or fight other nations all throughout history. I imagine it could also have to do with a bit of simple imperialistic pride. Maybe the confrontation, for the Empire, was nothing more than pre-emptive, that's why they didn't take Bel that seriously at first. Even more than a threat, the Foundation all it was was a way for Bel to try his hand at conquering. This was Bel's power trip, and if it had been up to the Empire, they'd left Foundation alone. That is to say, it was Bel who wanted to fight the Foundation, not the Empire. The Empire didn't give a rat's ass..

 

[chornedsnorkack]

And the Empire could be threatened by the mere fact that the Foundation calls itself the "Second Empire", and that they are spreading their influence and they have superior technology. Those are reasons enough to intervene,

Mallow was merely a captain of merchant ship, with no specific task or authorization for spying in Empire. Yet he just did it, and proved that Empire did not have a large and watchful border guard arresting any incoming ship. He escaped Siwenna without being stopped and killed by suspicious patrols - and not every border province of Empire was under constant martial law after suppressing a rebellion.

Foundation, or individual merchant princes, could easily have sponsored several spy missions to various spots of Imperial borders over the 45 years. Individual merchants feeling adventurous could have done the same on their own account. Why do Sennett Forell and his buddies feel the need to undertake a desperate spy mission - why did they neglect routine intelligence gathering for the 45 years intervening?

 

[Ihe]

Why do Sennett Forell and his buddies feel the need to undertake a desperate spy mission - why did they neglect routine intelligence gathering for the 45 years intervening?

Because they were inept idiots who'd gotten too comfortable. They were starting to follow the same patterns that had doomed the Empire. They were too busy getting unfairly rich at the expense of their workers to look toward the distant Empire. Also, maybe they didn't want to send spies in case one was caught and gave away their position--no matter how small that chance may be, they had to absolutely avoid contact with the Empire, which was their number one threat at the moment. So on top of ineptitude and self-service, you can add cowardice/extreme cautiousness to the merchant princes' various virtues.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Because they were inept idiots who'd gotten too comfortable. They were starting to follow the same patterns that had doomed the Empire. They were too busy getting unfairly rich at the expense of their workers to look toward the distant Empire.

Including the independent merchants?

Also, maybe they didn't want to send spies in case one was caught and gave away their position--no matter how small that chance may be, they had to absolutely avoid contact with the Empire, which was their number one threat at the moment.

State it this way that Empire was the only possible threat left, ever since Wienis was dealt with.
But Foundation´s position was known to Empire. The archives of the viceroy contained interesting stories of his dealings with Foundation. Korell... 3 years of war, 3 years of free trade before that, 1 year during which Korell captured 3 trade ships, unknown time before that that Commdora was married, unknown time before THAT when the viceroy was scouting the Periphery, picked Korell, completed negotiations... No, the viceroy had to know a lot about Periphery, and a lot about Foundation. And not only written archives. Yes, he was killed by Ducem - just him. Many other young soldiers in his retinue would have been elderly but alive for Bel Riose... including some who had been to Korell and back with Commdora!

 

[Ihe]

Including the independent merchants?

The independent merchants could've done it, I'll grant you that. But caution or lack of resources/courage or organization could've factored in to the decision of not spying on the Empire, or not do it well. Besides, the independent merchants didn't care for Foundation that much and resented it. I doubt patriotic spies were in abundance amongst them.
Yes, I agree they could've kept better tabs on the Empire, but as long as there are alternative plausible explanations to "why" or "why not", it cannot be considered a plothole.

As for the rest of your argument, you're getting way too specific for me. I would have to give Foundation a serious re-read to argue for or against, and I simply don't have the time. You've beaten me . Really enjoyed the back and forth here though. Keep up the scrutiny.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

As for the rest of your argument, you're getting way too specific for me. I would have to give Foundation a serious re-read to argue for or against, and I simply don't have the time. You've beaten me . Really enjoyed the back and forth here though. Keep up the scrutiny.

What a pity... It gets boring to pick at Seldon without feedback.
May I continue with some arguments about independent merchants?

 

[Ihe]

What a pity... It gets boring to pick at Seldon without feedback.
May I continue with some arguments about independent merchants?

Go ahead, but I'll have to stop you when you start referencing individual paragraphs and lines