Foundation & Empire

[chornedsnorkack]

Do you agree that Hober Mallow could be described as a rogue trader?

Jorane Sutt quotes "custom" that Traders ought to spread religion as well - but Hober pointed out that Foundation had desisted from making it a formal law. Until Hober the Traders did obey the "custom", but Hober broke it.

 

[Ihe]

I don't know about "rogue", only that he was discontented with the statu quo.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

I don't know about "rogue", only that he was discontented with the statu quo.

And, importantly, acted on that discontent. Did something contrary to status quo, namely opened free trade with Korell, and went to visit Empire, which no Foundation trader had done before.

But importantly, although he was the first Trader to become a Merchant Prince, he was not the only one. Remember the meeting of Foundation government early in Dead Hand.
4 merchant princes. The richest of them was Sennett Forell - generally acknowledged as a distant collateral relative, and unofficially son, of Hober. Presumably Hober´s heir as well.
But we are not told that the other 3 would also have been Mallow´s sons and Sennett´s brethren.
It follows that these 3 had somehow been able to get rich. Mallow had allowed others to get rich.
If Mallow was Mayor and Foreign Minister, won Third Seldon Crisis, opened free trade with Korell and spied in Empire - then what did the other 3 do to get rich?

 

[Ihe]

If Mallow was Mayor and Foreign Minister, won Third Seldon Crisis, opened free trade with Korell and spied in Empire - then what did the other 3 do to get rich?

The good old-fashioned way. Through the work of others and copious amounts of back-stabbing.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

There are 2 obvious ways to make a lot of money by trade.
One is high volume, low margin, low risk.
The other is low volume, high margin, but also high risk.
For example, say Mallow gets a necklace at 1000 credits and sells it to 1 rich woman on Korell for 10 000 credits. Mallow´s profit is 9000 credits, before Foundation taxes.
But alternatively, Mallow might get 10 000 kitchen knives at 5 credits each and sell them to 10 000 housewives on Korell for 10 credits each. Profits 50 000 credits.
Now, that one necklace Mallow can shove in his pocket. 10 000 kitchen knives don´t fit there - Mallow must hire crews, captains of his ships... and see to it that he does not distribute all his profits to people who work for them.

If Mallow opened free trade with Korell, this meant that the other Merchant Princes could open free trade with other Periphery kingdoms, and get rich by hiring crews to carry multiple shiploads.

But would that stop individual traders from going where Mallow´s fleets were too far, and where they could get 10 000 or more credits for the only atomic necklace (which was no longer possible on Korell)?

 

[Ihe]

If Mallow opened free trade with Korell, this meant that the other Merchant Princes could open free trade with other Periphery kingdoms,

Who knows, maybe they did. But as long as they kept it secret enough, with enough myth and superstition involved... Also, a lot of periphery sectors had already cut ties with the Empire.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Who knows, maybe they did. But as long as they kept it secret enough,

Why would they have? After Mallow was acquitted and elected Mayor, it was known to all other merchants that greed and free trade were allowed.

They had other secrets which they had reason to keep. Like, what their profits were. How could Foundation ever find out?

with enough myth and superstition involved... Also, a lot of periphery sectors had already cut ties with the Empire.

Most of them had, and all of Periphery had been politically independent for a a century.

 

[Ihe]

Why would they have? After Mallow was acquitted and elected Mayor, it was known to all other merchants that greed and free trade were allowed.

They had other secrets which they had reason to keep. Like, what their profits were. How could Foundation ever find out?

Most of them had, and all of Periphery had been politically independent for a a century.

Something so charged with superstition, history, neigh-mythical threat and fate-destroying powers as was the Empire commanded fear and permeated through all Foundation citizens. It was a cultural thing. They'd all been weaned on Foundation's greater purpose and the boogeyman to those dreams was none other than the Empire.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Something so charged with superstition, history, neigh-mythical threat and fate-destroying powers as was the Empire commanded fear and permeated through all Foundation citizens. It was a cultural thing. They'd all been weaned on Foundation's greater purpose and the boogeyman to those dreams was none other than the Empire.

No. There was no boogeyman. For a century, till Mallow discovered Empire at Siwenna, Empire was a remote history for Hardin and anyone else in Foundation or anywhere in Periphery they had yet met. It may have been a memory of sin and oppression for Askonians, but they despised Foundation and their neighbours as well. What did Foundation have to remember? The benevolent but incompetent Empire who had founded Foundation basically on a whim of idle curiosity, supported a million people for fifty years - and then crumbled before the defiance of Anacreon like a house of cards, with basically a nod of approval from Lord Dorwin.

And the big news which Mallow had to bring were that, one - Empire still existed rather than having crumbled a few years after Dorwin left and all contacts were cut off, like Hardin had feared, and that second - it was still a paper tiger, one that did not guard its borders against spies and would not give efficient protection to or vengeance for Korell.

 

[Ihe]

No. There was no boogeyman. For a century, till Mallow discovered Empire at Siwenna, Empire was a remote history for Hardin and anyone else in Foundation or anywhere in Periphery they had yet met.

Still, a risk is a risk. And what makes you think trading with the Empire was worth the trip? It was much farther than most planets they traded with. The Empire was also a decadent civilization with inferior technology and not enough resources to hold it together. I don´t know if it´s mentioned in the book just how rich in natural resources the Empire was at the time of the merchant princes, but maybe you can shed some light on this, as you have it freshest in memory (and it was natural resources Foundation needed).

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Still, a risk is a risk.

How big risk? To whom?
Mallow WAS taking some risk. He went to Empire alone, without telling his crew where he went, and left instructions for the case he does not return in two months because he gets killed or imprisoned in Empire.

And what makes you think trading with the Empire was worth the trip? It was much farther than most planets they traded with.

It was not too far for Mallow to go and just visit Siwenna. Bel Riose complains that Merchants were common in places that were nearer to Siwenna than to Terminus. Farther, but not by much.

The Empire was also a decadent civilization with inferior technology and not enough resources to hold it together. I don´t know if it´s mentioned in the book just how rich in natural resources the Empire was at the time of the merchant princes, but maybe you can shed some light on this, as you have it freshest in memory (and it was natural resources Foundation needed).

Empire was a decadent civilization, but so were Korell and Askone. Korell was 6 (half a dozen) star systems. Empire is described in Dead Hand as 20 million worlds.

Empire had nuclear energy, and was still richer per capita or per world than Periphery.

 

[Ihe]

How big risk? To whom?
Mallow WAS taking some risk. He went to Empire alone, without telling his crew where he went, and left instructions for the case he does not return in two months because he gets killed or imprisoned in Empire.

If he had to make contingency plans in case he was imprisoned or killed by Empire, then there was definitely a big perceived risk, independently of how real a risk that was, and that´s reason enough not to send too many people to that side of the galaxy. When you´re trying to replace the old Empire, you gotta tread lightly. I still don´t see a plothole, just an alternative to another viable development in the story. If they didn´t trade with Empire, it could´ve been simply to keep low under their radar, and the periphery was big enough that they didn´t need trade with Empire.

There could only be one Empire, and a clash between the two was a real danger. Keeping away was a perfectly normal option. Not spying as much as they should have is Foundation´s policy mistake, but not a plothole. Governments aren´t perfect, and maybe this lack of concern had already been foretold by Seldon, and this security blunder was needed for the conflict vs. Empire to be deigned a Seldon crisis. Still, not a plothole in my eyes. Foundation wasn´t infallible. They came through in the crises, but the rest of the time they could mess up (which was a factor that could lead to said crises).

 

[chornedsnorkack]

If he had to make contingency plans in case he was imprisoned or killed by Empire, then there was definitely a big perceived risk, independently of how real a risk that was, and that´s reason enough not to send too many people to that side of the galaxy.

No one sent Mallow. Neither the Acting Captain Drawt nor anyone else knew where he went.
Quoting again - to remind the general attitude of traders to danger.

But you a trader? You look more like a fighting man. You hold your hand near your gun and there is a scar on your jawbone.

There isn't much law out there where I come from. Fighting and scars are part of a trader's overhead. But fighting is only useful when there's money at the end, and if I can get it without, so much the sweeter. Now will I find enough money here to make it worth the fighting?

Mallow did not just dance into every republic and kingdom of Periphery thinking himself invulnerable behind Convention of Foundation, atomic weapons of his ship and personal atomic shield. Nor was he invulnerable: someone managed to give him the scar.

He took the risk, he survived it.

 

[Ihe]

No one sent Mallow. Neither the Acting Captain Drawt nor anyone else knew where he went. Quoting again - to remind the general attitude of traders to danger. Mallow did not just dance into every republic and kingdom of Periphery thinking himself invulnerable behind Convention of Foundation, atomic weapons of his ship and personal atomic shield. Nor was he invulnerable: someone managed to give him the scar. He took the risk, he survived it.

Not all traders were like Mallow. In fact, Mallow was pretty exceptional. And to risk for profit is one thing, but to risk for the sake of spying is another. The only ones who would´ve dared to approach empire were traders, and they only had profit in their minds. We´ve established it was indeed perceived as dangerous to venture too close to the Empire. I think it is safe to say that some did, but the majority didn´t. Out of the ones that got close enough, how many do you think went the extra mile to spy on militaristic and political issues in the Empire? What makes you think those sort of secrets could be uncovered by a mere trader out of his depth tiptoeing around in some Imperial back-of-the-woods planet? To really know, you would have to go to the capital and be in the emperor´s court, and maybe not even then. The Empire´s policies weren´t public knowledge. So, IMO, there is no plothole regarding on why Foundation didn´t spy on them (who knows, maybe they did, but didn´t get anywhere with it), which in the end was the main reason this discussion started. Getting caught by surprise by the Empire was a perfectly normal course of events.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Not all traders were like Mallow. In fact, Mallow was pretty exceptional.

Mallow was the first trader to break rules, get away with it and become Prince Merchant. But I have demonstrated that he was not the last and only person to become Prince Merchant.

And to risk for profit is one thing, but to risk for the sake of spying is another. The only ones who would´ve dared to approach empire were traders, and they only had profit in their minds. We´ve established it was indeed perceived as dangerous to venture too close to the Empire.

No, we haven´t. You have argued it.

I think it is safe to say that some did, but the majority didn´t. Out of the ones that got close enough, how many do you think went the extra mile to spy on militaristic and political issues in the Empire? What makes you think those sort of secrets could be uncovered by a mere trader out of his depth tiptoeing around in some Imperial back-of-the-woods planet? To really know, you would have to go to the capital and be in the emperor´s court, and maybe not even then. The Empire´s policies weren´t public knowledge.

A lot WAS public knowledge. Mallow landed in a wilderness, and the first man he met, Onum Barr, had a lot to tell.
Not every peasant or hunter in every border province would have been as informed - or would have been an ex-Senator. But Mallow, or another Trader visiting Empire after him elsewhere than Siwenna, could probably have chatted with present Senators and rich merchants and industrialists. After all, these were the people who could afford to buy atomic necklaces for their wives and daughters at 10 000 credits or more.

 

[Ihe]

No, we haven´t. You have argued it.

Yes we did. Actually, you did it for me:

Mallow WAS taking some risk. He went to Empire alone, without telling his crew where he went, and left instructions for the case he does not return in two months because he gets killed or imprisoned in Empire.

If he was making contingency plans in case he got killed or imprisoned, there was something to fear. How real that fear was is beside the point.What mattered was the traders´perception of it.

And perhaps the biggest reason Foundation didn´t do much preemptive surveillance was simply because of their blind faith in Seldon´s plan, which predicted their ultimate victory no matter what (or so they wanted to think). So, I still fail to see a plothole in that.

But Mallow, or another Trader visiting Empire after him elsewhere than Siwenna, could probably have chatted with present Senators and rich merchants and industrialists. After all, these were the people who could afford to buy atomic necklaces for their wives and daughters at 10 000 credits or more.

Maybe you have a point in this bit. But just because there were possibilities of accessing basic peripheral information concerning Empire doesn´t mean military plans would´ve been unveiled, nor Bel´s secretive investigation, so the attack would´ve still caught them by surprise. And if Bel, who was an imperial general, had to dig around so much and so far from home to find mention of these "magicians", what does that tell you? It tells you that nobody in the central Empire had heard of Foundation. The traders that did trade in Empire territory were extremely secretive. And to be secretive, you have to NOT poke your head out too much. Asking questions gets you noticed. They were being very careful, even the adventuring types.

And above all lay the attitude of the Foundation towards crises. They were culturally a very passive-reactive bunch when concerning getting into tight spots, as I mentioned above.

You keep arguing some of the choices Foundation made in this issue were plothole-worthy. I say they might´ve not been the smartest, most perfect choices, but it is a stretch to call them plotholes, mostly because there are alternate, plausible explanations for them.

And to finish: Seldon had planned everything. What makes you think this carelessness wasn´t part of his plan to plunge Foundation into crisis at the right time?

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Yes we did. Actually, you did it for me:

If he was making contingency plans in case he got killed or imprisoned, there was something to fear. How real that fear was is beside the point.What mattered was the traders´perception of it.

And what also mattered was traders´ evaluation of risk.

There isn't much law out there where I come from. Fighting and scars are part of a trader's overhead.

It was not Empire who made a scar in Hober´s jaw. Yet when he got the wound, he did not go home to Foundation or Smyrno, once his job was proven dangerous - he went back to work with his scar.
And in the end Mallow DID come back and tell the tale. He did not confirm that there was a bad risk visiting Empire - rather, he was confirming that the risk was modest.

And if Bel, who was an imperial general, had to dig around so much and so far from home to find mention of these "magicians", what does that tell you? It tells you that nobody in the central Empire had heard of Foundation. The traders that did trade in Empire territory were extremely secretive. And to be secretive, you have to NOT poke your head out too much. Asking questions gets you noticed. They were being very careful, even the adventuring types.

The Merchant Princes with Sennett Forell had not heard anything either. If any traders visited Empire secretly they did not report back to Foundation either.

You keep arguing some of the choices Foundation made in this issue were plothole-worthy. I say they might´ve not been the smartest, most perfect choices, but it is a stretch to call them plotholes, mostly because there are alternate, plausible explanations for them.

And to finish: Seldon had planned everything. What makes you think this carelessness wasn´t part of his plan to plunge Foundation into crisis at the right time?

The plothole is that Seldon should have created obvious incentives for large numbers of individuals to obey their parts in Plan. Now, there is an alternative - why did none of the many individual Foundation traders take it?

 

[chornedsnorkack]

They had other secrets which they had reason to keep. Like, what their profits were. How could Foundation ever find out?

Repeating that question. What´s your opinion?

 

[Ihe]

Repeating that question. What´s your opinion?

I don´t think Asimov explains that, because that is waaaaay too specific and off-plot. If SF stories started explaining off-world custom tariffs, trading taxes, search&seizure methods, fraud laws and accounting issues, etc...well, it´d be the most boring book ever. You´re getting bogged down in the minutiae. I think you´re expecting too much from Asimov .

But, for a proper answer, I´ll say there had to be methods to know, like scanning the ship and its occupants, comparing weight before and after the trip, monitoring the traders´ bank accounts and purchases, hell, maybe they even frisked them on return. Based on their advanced tech and their penchant for secrecy, it´s not far-fetched to say they were control-freaks, and most definitely capable of finding out a trader´s profits if they so chose to. I mean, today, with our limited tech, the government can find out your earnings and if you´ve been getting something on the side easily. How much easier would it be for Foundation? Tax people have always and will always be the most thorough hounds. Give them high-end super computers and a paranoid government and they´ll be infallible lol.

Just because Asimov doesn´t go into an in-depth explanation of how the internal trading economy was handled doesn´t mean there weren´t measures taken. The "if I don´t see it written down, it doesn´t exist" idea wont get you very far in fiction. Foundation didn´t want contact with the Empire, that´s a fact, otherwise the Empire would´ve known of their existence without having to investigate. And Foundation could´ve enforced this secrecy with very strict controls on returning trading ships, tracking their routes even, maybe threatening with jail time or fines. Once again, Asimov doesn´t mention this, but it is a very plausible explanation. As a reader, we´re meant to fill in the blanks when the world in the story is too complex or big for an author to cover it in its entirety. No author can give you the detail you want without having to turn their story into an encyclopedia.

Asimov could´ve been more thorough, sure, but at some point you gotta draw the line so that context and internal mechanics don´t get in the way of the plot and the pacing.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

But, for a proper answer, I´ll say there had to be methods to know, like scanning the ship and its occupants, comparing weight before and after the trip, monitoring the traders´ bank accounts and purchases, hell, maybe they even frisked them on return.

All of these only show what the merchant exported and chose to bring back to Foundation. They do NOT show what the merchant earned so long as he invests - or consumes - part of his earnings outside Foundation and chooses to not report or underreport it.

Based on their advanced tech and their penchant for secrecy, it´s not far-fetched to say they were control-freaks, and most definitely capable of finding out a trader´s profits if they so chose to. I mean, today, with our limited tech, the government can find out your earnings and if you´ve been getting something on the side easily. How much easier would it be for Foundation? Tax people have always and will always be the most thorough hounds. Give them high-end super computers and a paranoid government and they´ll be infallible lol.

Foundation tax people did not have high-end super computers. And more importantly, they did not have control of the various governments of Periphery.
Mallow suggests Commdor to set up "fictitious corporations" to conceal the profits of his necklace trade from Korellian public opinion. Well, Korellian public opinion was everywhere on Korell. Foundation´s tax agents were not. If Mallow chose to spend some of his earnings on Korell, or invest them, and not report them to Foundation tax office, was Korell going to inform Foundation?
Like, Mallow sells a necklace to Commdor for 1000 credits, which Commdor resells for at least 10 000 - but then Mallow reports to Foundation tax office that he sold the necklace for 500 credits. And these 500 credits never reach Foundation, because Mallow spends them all on Korell.

Or alternatively, Commdor pays Mallow 1000 cash, which Mallow correctly reports - but what Mallow chooses to not report is

Nor was there any mention of what I had for breakfast that day, or the name of my current mistress, or any other irrelevant detail

... like the irrelevant detail that the breakfast was free, paid from treasure-chest of Commdor, on top of the 1000 credits cash that Mallow declared, and the mistress also was free and also paid (along with the baby Hober made) by Commdor also as a part of the 10 000 credits deal?

Foundation didn´t want contact with the Empire, that´s a fact, otherwise the Empire would´ve known of their existence without having to investigate. And Foundation could´ve enforced this secrecy with very strict controls on returning trading ships, tracking their routes even, maybe threatening with jail time or fines. Once again, Asimov doesn´t mention this, but it is a very plausible explanation.

But later on we see that Foundation was NOT very good at enforcing their laws on the merchants. The existence of Society of Independent Merchants, by the time of Devers, is a demonstration. Devers had not broken with Foundation - Forell was able to employ him. By the time of Mule, Independent Merchants had been able to build a navy to match Foundation - Foundation of Indburs was unable to stop that.

The whole story of Independent Merchants shows that Foundation COULDN´T enforce policies against Traders which were too easy and profitable to evade.