Not the sharpest swords in the armory

[Young stormlord]

Because most of the other horses are dead and there is no fun in kicking dead horse I thought to post something new and refreshing in this hot august days. So vote for the stupidest character in the book (Catelyn Stark, Lysa Aeryn, Sansa, Hodor and Cersei not included). I will post + and - of the characters.

Edmure Tully:
+ won a single battle
- 1) with that victory he blew out Robb's plan to defeat Tywin Lannister
2) to win battle he took Robb's crew from Twins (his loyal men!) thus leaving a room for plotting to Valder Fray and removing the reasons for his loyalty to Robb
3) Lost every battle exept one (got captured by Lannisters) and made Robb come to Riverland in first place
4) scatered his army to squads against greater enemy ( Tywin Lannister)

Robb Stark:
+ 1)Won every battle
2) found a way to defeat Tywin Lannister (good plan counts )
3) found a way to forgive his mother for treason

- 1) Killed Lord Karstark ( I would send him to Wall instead)
2) Sent Theon to Pyke, thus removing the reason why ironborn weren't rebeling for 10 years and reason for ironborn helping him.
3) wedded Jane Westerling and lost Freys
4) believed to Bolton who by his own words scares him

Theon Greyjoy

+ was smart enough to take over Winterfell with only 30 men

- Was stupid enough :
1) not to kill direwolves, Winterfell people, burn Winterfell when he had a chance.
2) take all Winterfell woman, food, weapons,gold,Bran and Rickon back to Pyke when he had a chance.

Astapor slavetraders

+were smart enough to breed Unsullied and get themselve a dragon

- were stupid enough to sell all city defense that they were training for years, that is perfectly loyal and without a feelings for a wild dragon that is probably loyal to his mother,not even once thinking that buyer could use that army against them, the fact even 9 year old slave knew

 

[Tysha]

Robb Stark - too honorable, too just, too honest, too good, too young BUT not stupid.
Edmure Tully - too kind, too weak, too Tully BUT not stupid.
Theon Greyjoy - too ambitious, too arrogant, too self-confident BUT not so stupid (just blind from his pride and eager to show off)
Astapor slavetraders - greedy bastards, they are blind because of the gold.
- If you are blind because of you greed or pride is that make you stupid? hmm, maybe..
Can't decide - Theon or Traders...

 

[TK-421]

I had to go with Edmure. He is weak and stupid. Robb was young and too much like his Dad. Theon arrogant. Slavetraders greedy.

 

[Weasel Soup]

A discussion of stupidity and no mention of Joffrey?

Of your 4 options I'm leaning toward Edmure, but he did let the Blackfish escape.

 

[Boaz]

Edmure cannot be blamed for Robb's inability to defeat Tywin. If Robb had told Edmure explicitly what to do, he'd have had his big chance to defeat Tywin. Robb, Catelyn, and Brynden all knew Edmure's character... why did they not give Ed more instructions? They knew who Ed's counselors were and what they'd say? Robb should have made Ed's role crystal clear. Robb and the Blackfish ganged up on Edmure blamed him for losing the war after leaving him in the dark in the first place. That showed Robb's arrogance and ignorance... this reminds me a lot of his mother... and some of his father.

Robb's forgiveness of Catelyn's treason was in itself unforgiveable. What's the difference in murdering two of the King's hostages and setting free a renowned, kingslaying, enemy general for nothing? In the end, setting the Kingslayer loose was the lesser moral crime but the greater threat to Robb's life.

Mayhaps Robb was not stupid. Mayhaps we could chalk it up to inexperience. But the situation warranted a shrewder man and Robb was vastly unsuited to the tasks before him. Who's more foolish, the fool or he who follows the fool? Roose Bolton and Rickard Karstark stopped following. Karstark picked a lousy way to renounce Robb... btw, Rickard would never have taken the Black if Robb offered it.

Theon was smart enough to stay alive for ten years as a hostage. He was also smart enough to escape without his captors knowing that he'd escaped.

Lord Hoster and Brynden are reportedly intelligent men, but all of Hoster's children have commited a number of errors. Catelyn, Lysa, and Edmure are not the sharpest swords in the armory. And their children also... Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Robert have made many atrocious decisions. Sure they are kids, but Westeros is a nasty place. Rickon is too out of the picture to judge. The smartest descendent of Lord Hoster is Arya... I don't think it's a mistake that she takes more after the Starks than the Tullys.

Robb showed a lot of promise. He lived up to his parents' legacy... he walked right into a political quagmire that he did not understand and got himself murdered.

Let's face it, Robb is a chip off the old block...

Also, Robb had to die. So mayhaps it's not really his fault. As much as Ned had to die, so did Robb. GRRM wants to make his series different from the formulaic crap that infests Fantasy lit. Robb is the quintessential handsome prince... that's a death sentence in ASOIAF.

That being said, Joffrey and Viserys make Robb look like Einstein.

Edit: Weasel Soup, Ed letting Brynden escape was his whole plan. He wanted the Blackfish loose to foil the Lannisters plans. Jaime was the stupid one not to place the Blackfish as a condition of Ed's surrendur.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Well Boaz is of course correct on most of his points.

I dont actually recall Ed "letting" Brynden go. It was Bryndens idea outside of the framework of Edmures capture. Remember Edmure was already Jaimes prisoner and it was Jaime who brokered the surrender of Riverrun with the Blackfish while Edmure was imprisoned somewhere else.

I expect no man to be rational where his mother is concerned. And yes there is a world of difference between slaughtering POWs and letting ones go.

My particular quibble today Boaz is....Was Edmure really responsible for Robbs non-defeat of Tywin? Theres orders and then theres orders. I can only speak from experience on this one because we dont actually get to enjoy the conversation between Robb and Edmure. In battle you usually do not know the full picture. Small Unit leaders and emplacement commanders dont always know the full picture. Theres neither time nor need to explain to someone that when you say "Duck!" you mean "Duck now please". However, in this case Robb should have told him in no uncertain terms "Repel the Lannisters at all costs but do not leave Riverrun in force". Because Edmure was confused clearly Robb was less than particular in his choice of words. Im guessing from the conversation between Robb, his commanders and Edmure the orders were merely "Hold Riverrun". Now how one holds a structure is entirely interpretive at this point. I think Edmure did exactly what he was supposed and Robb was a tool for implying otherwise......and he lost the war for the honor of a defeated and minor House Scion.

Robb wins this particular contest. For blaming Edmure for his lack of clarity, for releasing Theon, and mostly for being his fathers son....

Robb Stark, We salute you ya dumb *******.

 

[Boaz]

Egg, well said. Corrct on most of my points? If I'm batting over .500 I'm thrilled.

Of course Robb would not let Ed in on his counsel and plans for almost the same reasons that Doran kept Arianne in the dark. The bottom line is that Edmure may not watch his tongue.

When Robb says "Hold Riverrun" Robb meant "Stay inside the castle and let Tywin pass unmolested as he burns your fields and murders your people, but look for him quickly returning in a rout... When this happens, leave the castle and kill every Lannister you can find".

When Robb said "Hold Riverrun" Ed heard "Hold all of your father's lands. In fact their my lands now and I don't want them spoiled. So defend all of the Riverlands to the last man."

Of course the Dothraki Leadership Conference (DLC) had not arrived in the Seven Kingdoms... so Robb is really blameless for his poor communication to Edmure. If Drogo had not cancelled his speaking engagements in Westeros, Robb would have learned proper leadership skills from the DLC and would still be alive. Therefore we can safely blame Khal Drogo for Robb's inability to defeat Lord Tywin.

Edit: I just want to be clear that I'm not condoning murdering prisoners of war. Neither do I condone torrture... or exacting oaths from drunken prisoners chained to a wall and standing in their own fillth while their gaoler holds a sword to the prisoner's throat. Sure Robb executed Karstark for treason, but I don't expect the Lannisters would have been satisfied with that. Robb could have shipped Karstark and his men to KL to Joffrey's justice and the Lannisters might have been slightly mollified, but that's not right either. Losing two young men was worth getting Jaime back to the Lannisters. In the long run, Catelyn's treason hurt the North more, imo.

Second Edit: In Glory, Denzel Washington's and Matthew Broderick's characters have a conversation near the end. Washington says the war stinks bad... that they have all covered themselves in shame, not glory. I think this is true of ASOIAF. The good guys, i.e. Ned, Jon, Robb, Sam, Catelyn, etc. have all done things they are ashamed of. They broke oaths and vows. They told lies. They used coercion. They did not protect those they swore to protect. But compared to Viserys, Theon, Gregor, Sandor, Joffrey, Cersei, etc. we judge the Starks to be good-er. No matter who wins the Iron Throne or defeats tje Other, he/she will have dishonored themselves in some shape or form along the way.

 

[TomServo]

Mayhaps Robb was not stupid. Mayhaps we could chalk it up to inexperience. ...So mayhaps it's not really his fault.

Practicing to play Lord of the Crossing with the Freys? (I'm pretty sure thats what it was called.)

 

[Boaz]

Mayhaps.

 

[C Of K]

I think this:

3) wedded Jane Westerling and lost Freys

seals it for me.

Marrying Jane Westerling when there's a kingdom at stake? when you'll need all the allies you can get? [FONT=&quot]—[/FONT]Perhaps Rickon should have gone to war. At least then there would have been an excuse.

Maybe Rob thought it was ok to go back on his word by marrying the girl, because his father turned out alright during his war, after fathering Jon. The blame for this could partly fall on Eddard, but since he's not an option...

 

[Young stormlord]

First a few notions about this poll/thread...

These "four people" weren't chosen by accident. As name suggests, they weren't sharpest swords in the armory. And this sentence is more than you see on first look.

There can only be two reasons for forging a sword. You are forging it to use it or to sell it. These "four people" were "swords forged to be used". First 3 are/were lord sons who were trained to rule and fight. All 3 come from hundreds of years old families. The "fourth man", slavetraders from Astapor, also come from familyes that is in the same bussines for generations. They've probably been trained and tought how to do it ( sell Unsullied that is) and knew what they were selling better than anybody else. The fact that they are all "swords forged to be used" figuratively speaking is the main reason why they were chosen for this "stupidity contest" although stupidity is maybe too hard word. Perhaps contest of the people who should have known better.
All "four" had necessary training and knowledge and yet they haven't used them when they should.

That is also the main reason why I haven't chosen lady's(Catelyn,Lysa, Sansa, Cersei),for this competition. In the world of ASOIAF the are all "swords forged to be sold". Or to citate Sansa :raised to be ""wedded and bedded".They don't have necessary training and knowledge to rule over land and lead armed men. To find perfect lady prototype read first Arya chapter in AGOT.

Now to get back to our candidates.
I didn't have enough time to post everything I wanted, because I was posting from internet club so here it is.
Adition to list of Robb -

5) He knew that Edmure is stupid and didn't do one of these things
- told him the grand plan
- ordered him "Hold Riverrun.Don't touch Tywin unless he touches you first.If you brake this order I will cut your head off"
- Left one of his counselors with Edmure to tell him :"Don't do that,Robb has other plans, you would spoil them". Instead of doing that, Robb gives Ed more soldiers than he needs to hold castle (he knows Edmure is fool).

But no biggy. Robb was ment to die since AGOT so he needs to make a few mistakes for that to happen.

Also Theon didn't need wits to survive 10 years as a hostage. If they harmed him they would lose a hostage and ironborn would be free to rebel.

 

[Boaz]

YS, using your reasoning "Use or Sell", I'd say Theon was made for using, but was sold to the Starks. In order for Balon to keep his head on his shoulders, he had to sell Theon to Robert and Ned. But yes, it was in the Starks best interest to keep Theon alive.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Second Edit: In Glory, Denzel Washington's and Matthew Broderick's characters have a conversation near the end. Washington says the war stinks bad... that they have all covered themselves in shame, not glory. I think this is true of ASOIAF. The good guys, i.e. Ned, Jon, Robb, Sam, Catelyn, etc. have all done things they are ashamed of. They broke oaths and vows. They told lies. They used coercion. They did not protect those they swore to protect. But compared to Viserys, Theon, Gregor, Sandor, Joffrey, Cersei, etc. we judge the Starks to be good-er. No matter who wins the Iron Throne or defeats tje Other, he/she will have dishonored themselves in some shape or form along the way.

Thats the way war always works Boaz. Anytime youre fighting for your life or your way of life, you'll contemplate actions that you never would before that time. Thats why at the end of the day there is no one more opposed to mass violence than the warriors who fought there.

 

[Boaz]

It's always fun and safe to keep stories theoretical and intellectual. Actually trying to apply them or let them affect behavior is dangerous... I like reading fantasies, reading histories, and fighting table top battles with miniatures. If I had to apply ASOIAF to my own life... honestly, I'd be little Lord Robert or mayhaps Marillion.

You live in reality, my friend. I appreciate your candor. Godspeed on your return to your wife.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

One of the reasons Im glad not to see Catelyn in this poll is her stance on the "knights of summer". I really appreciated her POV in that regard. All of Renlys people were entering this war lightly. She didnt offer advice to them because she knew it wouldnt be heeded. One of the things I took away from a certain Latin American operation (many years ago) was that even when assured of victory, open conflict was the absolute last step to be taken. Plans and contingencies are the first casualties of any conflict and the only difference between victory and defeat tends to be the will of the combatants.

 

[TK-421]

We have a General Patton in our midst...

 

[Boaz]

Egg, I'm rereading AGOT. I just read Catelyn's chapter where she joins up with Robb's army at Moat Cailin. The northmen's preparation and attitude is in Stark contrast to Renly's army that Catelyn also sees marching to war.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Well TK, while Patton was admirable in his ability to maintain military discipline and prepare a large force for battle.. his ability to actually engage an enemy wasnt quite what popular culture make him out to be....so that borders on an insult...hee.

Boaz- Was Stark capitalized on purpose? We know that Stannis' host was defeated at Kings Landing because of the Tyrells' deception, but part of the reason was they lacked discipline. A large portion of the host was those lords that quickly renounced Renly. If someone will desert your cause while standing on a sunlit field and eating peaches, Im sure theyll desert you when faced with unquenchable fire and restless spirits. No point to that, just commenting how Catelyn was correct....

 

[Boaz]

Yes, the pun was intended. I prefer Capitalization and italics to .

And after all the posts here, I think that's the first use of that particular pun. Now AU, Wiggum, or Dolorous Edd will magically reappear and prove me wrong.

 

[Man of the North]

Robb Stark had better training as a military leader and better disciplined army to boot. Renly may be older than Robb but never had the military training. Renly thought it was a game were he was going to march north from Stormend and smash their opponent. But Renly did have the numbers, considering his force was over a hundred thousand strong, no opponent would last very long in that fight. He got most of those troops from the Tyrells because he married their daughter. So he was a better politician than Robb ever was, because he marriage give him an army.

Stannis army was made mostly of lords that were loyal to Stormsend not Stannis, but with the death of Renly, their loyalties goes to Stannis, since he is the rightful heir. Stannis should have figured out what the Tyrells army was doing before he made his advancement towards KL.

But there is a point in lords switching sides so quickly. They should not be trusted, which is why Stannis should have figured out what was going on with the Tyrells first. Then he would have some time to valuate his army's strength and weaknesses.