Female characters really suck

[Diana Levin]

However, it should also be noted that Jordan does nothing new, he just emphasizes a trend that has become common in SF/F (and mainstream media as well?), most likely as a half-hearted attempt to satisfy feminism, in which the formula has become the following: Female strenght = Power. Male strenght = Propensity to do objective good. Use of this formula can be found with writers as diverse as David Eddings and Kim Stanley Robinson.

The "damsel in distress" is no longer accepted; she has now been replaced by the "incompetent tomboy".

I think you make a good point, Thadlerian. I see that as well...and thats what made me so irritated with Jordan's characterization of women. Its as if when he sat down to write his book, he said to himself, "now how can I characterize ALL THE FEMALES?" seeing them all as one singular force, as opposed to treating of each of them as separate complex beings (like he does with his male characters). Its as if he considers women to have a sort "ant hive" mentality. Perhaps, as he say so often in his book, he just "doesn't understand women."

 

[Talysia]

Ok, I've been thinking about this for a while, but are there any of RJ's female characters that don't (by general consensus) annoy the readers? I can only think of a couple...

 

[C Of K]

Great new avatar Talysia! I almost didn't recognize you
But about your question...for some reason I like Verin a lot. Although I think there are instances in this story where I like most of Jordan's characters, the unflattering qualities shine through in most of them. It's just a part of his world, I think.

 

[Diana Levin]

Ok, I've been thinking about this for a while, but are there any of RJ's female characters that don't (by general consensus) annoy the readers? I can only think of a couple...

There are only a couple characters that truly anoy me, and I'm okay with that. There will always be characters I like and characters I don't like--its supposed to be like that. What bothers me is the way Jordan portrays female characters in general.

 

[Talysia]

Great new avatar Talysia! I almost didn't recognize you
But about your question...for some reason I like Verin a lot.

Aww, thanks! Sorry to confuse you, C Of K.

Verin is one of my favourite characters in the series. And Diana, I know what you mean about the way women are portrayed in general. I can't decide whether Jordan is writing for the era of fantasy that he's created or something else.

 

[woodsman]

Yep I'd go for Verin and Min, Faile a little as well.

I felt a lot of sympathy towards some of the characters early on: Egwene, Elayne etc, but as the books go on instead of maturing they just become worse and worse. i think this is more tied up with the role/portrayal of the Aes Sedai. Basically a bunch of objectional people who believe they have the greatest power and are best at absolutley everything.

I don't think that Jordan has made realistic female characters though and hating somone is not an indication that they are a well written/thought out character, But I do believe the whole portrayal of women in WoT would work well if it was in less detail and the series was shorter. This is because the role of women and the way they act does seem to have been key to several threads of the story.

My tuppence worth.

 

[NyneaveSedai]

Just a thought but have you considered the setting, in terms of age, of Jordan's work? I found the political power balance is suprisingly even considering.
From the way Jordan always talked about his wife Harriet I doubt VERY much that Jordan wished for his female characters to come over as opppressed or petty.
I do think that you are a little harsh on his characters, I find them interesting and sometimes dislikable but isn't that the point? you can't go through life liking everyone.
But Faery Queen, are you seriously just talking about a book or does this run a little deeper than that? are you referring to our society?

 

[VannThurhart]

Personality Shifts

Yes, a good number of his characters are similar. I can almost lump Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve (the Trio) into one personality. But if you truly think all women act the same, Moiraine was nothing like any of the other Aes Sedai I knew. Siuan Sanche had an attitude of her own as well as a compelling personality. Morgase is a more intricate Elayne. Aviendha is like a mix of the Trio and Lan. Faile reminds me of a mixture of Rand and Mat with a touch of Jordan's Trio.

Now I know there can be arguments, but I truly think that not ALL of these women are the SAME. Moiraine never bickered or gossiped like the other Aes Sedai, she played in schemes yes, but she never acted like an old woman. Siuan also didn't seem to have the gossip issue, she seemed more like a mix of Morgase and Moiraine to me.

As to whether his world was masculine or feminine, I think he wanted to get across that it was feminine, but Rand's coming seemed to shake down the women's rule, for better or worse. But before Rand, kings and lords didn't war with each other outright, kept under watch by the Aes Sedai. The Whitecloaks were a total joke. And any man who could channel got his arse handed to him fast.


Oh, and edit, I do admit that when I read his books for the second time, I found myself skipping over Egwene and Elayne when they went adventuring. The Trio seemed a bit too childish for me. So I do agree that at times, the women can be really annoying.

 

[the_faery_queen]

refering to our society in what way?
and women, in this real world, submit to their men and stay with rapists and those who beat them because they believe they can't do any better. those sorts of men groom those women, the way a pedophile does, into beliving that this is all their good for, that this man who hrut them really does love them and that he's sorry for hurting them and that they won't find anyone else who lovs them more
it's not that they tay with him for the good times. they stay with him because they CAN'T leave. they're broken down and afraid of being alone, that no one will want them. opr phyusically afraid the husband will get them. no one stays with abuse for the good times, they stay because they feel bad about themselves and have to.

and i have to say that i think ALl his women will submit to a man, if they haven't already. the way that the siuan woman crumbled almost instantly, is kinda proof to me that these women will cave and put up with ridiculous sorts of crap for thuis guy, no matter how strong they are. and staying home and doing the dishes and keeping house isn't what i was talking about. (i just used it because it reminds me of that sort of society where that was seen as a woman's role) it;s how they let the men make the decisions, ALL the important ones, let the men punish them when they disobey. for heaven's sake you CANNOT spank your damn wife (unless it's in a sexual way) for doing something you don't want her to (perrin and faile her) it's perverse. a woman is your equal, not your submissive, not someone you can punish for doing her own thing. and yet all the women seem to accept thsi sort of situation. ok not all the men have spanked their women yet, but they all seem to be of the, ok dear, you know best, you tell me what to do and iw ill do it
even queens. even women who probably know better than the men do, still do whatever their told.
none of them are strong or indepedant, they all cave

and i have to say i dont' agree for one second that you need the battle of the sexest to make a book interesting. there are other battles. there is no reason for jordan to be so sexist with what he's done, it just says a lot abotu him. none of the women are strong, they all put up with ridiculous domination from teh men and teh spanking, and nakedness and everything else just goes to support my belief that jordan has women isseus (in another sort of way from goodkind but issues all the same) women just don't behave like that. we're not girls from a 1950s enid bylton boarding school hitting each other with hairbrushes and having midnight feasts, while looking down on boys, yet still doing what they say
and that's how the women come cross to me

 

[C Of K]

the faery queen makes good points. But this mostly just illustrates differing points of view. I can see how she would perceive things the way she does, that all of Jordan's women are weak. That's not necessarily my point of view on the matter, but she isn't wrong.

Perrin did spank Faile. As I recall she'd been pummeling him at the time, even after he'd displayed distaste for her treatment of him. But I don't necessarily disagree with the faey queen as much as I see things differently.

That Perrin spanked Faile does not show strength on Perrin's part. If anything it shows that they may both be weak individuals. That men can make all the important decisions, just because they are men, does not show strength, either.

The maidens of the spear, none of which are regularly featured characters by the eleventh book, will die for Rand, but when he dishonors him, they've been known to take it out on him violently. Many of them are strong characters, but no single maiden is featured as one of the more important characters, now.

Strength can be portrayed in the making of decisions in books, or in real life, but really that's only a small aspect of what strength is. Lan, for instance, is usually portrayed as a very strong man, but he's taken orders from women for decades. Is he any less strong for being able to do so?

I don't believe so. Lan knows his role, has excepted his role, and carries it out to the best of his ability. That sounds a lot like strength to me. The world would get nowhere if everyone was pulling clout on everyone.

 

[VannThurhart]

I think you guys are focusing on the girls too much and not looking at the women. The Girls act like all this yes. But I haven't seen Women acting so foolish. Moiraine certainly doesn't fit any of this, she actually had strength. The wise women don't act this way, they deal with things in their own manner and don't give in to men and don't act foolish when they can get around it (Exempting that evil one). The only people I notice act this way are the girls between 20 and 30, and the Aes Sedai who I think never grew up.

 

[C Of K]

Well we never did really get to see Moiraine in an environment where she hobnobbed very much with other Aes Sedai, and when we did, the Power Playing may have been there, but it really wasn't important at the time. When Moiraine was gone, and RJ started stalling the plot in order to produce more and more books, all of a sudden he began featuring dozens of new Aes Sedai, and their little clicks, and low and behold, they were just like everyone else. So we don't exactly know what Moiraine would have been like, but to say that so many Aes Sedai never grew up is strange to me.

Most of them were examples of women in RJ's world that are far beyond your definition of what qualifies as a girl (Ages 20 - 30) As for the wise ones, they are among the first to try and put everyone in their place with one form of threat or another. But that isn't so much a wise ones thing as much as it seems to be an Aiel thing altogether.

The fact is that most of the people in this world bicker when they are challenged. It isn't just the women. It's something that RJ perhaps over exaggerated for effect. It may have been interesting at first, but after eleven books something like that is bound to get tired.

 

[VannThurhart]

Yes, I can certainly agree with that.

 

[Diana Levin]

and i have to say that i think ALl his women will submit to a man, if they haven't already. the way that the siuan woman crumbled almost instantly, is kinda proof to me that these women will cave and put up with ridiculous sorts of crap for thuis guy, no matter how strong they are. and staying home and doing the dishes and keeping house isn't what i was talking about. (i just used it because it reminds me of that sort of society where that was seen as a woman's role) it;s how they let the men make the decisions, ALL the important ones, let the men punish them when they disobey. for heaven's sake you CANNOT spank your damn wife (unless it's in a sexual way) for doing something you don't want her to (perrin and faile her) it's perverse. a woman is your equal, not your submissive, not someone you can punish for doing her own thing. and yet all the women seem to accept thsi sort of situation. ok not all the men have spanked their women yet, but they all seem to be of the, ok dear, you know best, you tell me what to do and iw ill do it
even queens. even women who probably know better than the men do, still do whatever their told.
none of them are strong or indepedant, they all cave

and i have to say i dont' agree for one second that you need the battle of the sexest to make a book interesting. there are other battles. there is no reason for jordan to be so sexist with what he's done, it just says a lot abotu him. none of the women are strong, they all put up with ridiculous domination from teh men and teh spanking, and nakedness and everything else just goes to support my belief that jordan has women isseus (in another sort of way from goodkind but issues all the same) women just don't behave like that. we're not girls from a 1950s enid bylton boarding school hitting each other with hairbrushes and having midnight feasts, while looking down on boys, yet still doing what they say
and that's how the women come cross to me

I don't agree with everything you say. As I remember correctly, not all of the women in the WOT submit to the men. You completely overgeneralizing. Yes I agree, there might have been some instances where this was the case. But in general only a few do, but only because of real unusual circumstances Most do everything they can to resist.

As for Siuan, I don't think she crumpled instantly as you see it. She was delt a real blow to the ego. She was knocked out of her seat of power and had her magic abilities taken from her--which I believe is like the worst thing someone can go through in that world. So yes, she is going to have some self-esteem issues after that. It only makes her human. But than again, clearly she is falling in love that commander guy (I forgot his name) and probably sees it as weakness on her part. But I guess some people do crazy things for love--things that they wouldn't normally do.

And I now remember the spanking part. It was kind of strange. But than I thought that it was just faile's personality. She is just one of those women that likes very authoritative men. You could see this by her attempts at changing Perin into the kind of man her father is--commanding, imposing, masculine. But at the same time, Jordan showed us that she is much like her mother. She loves to argue. I have met women like her. Its not very unusual. As for Perin, I felt it was not really in his character at all, so I don't understand why Jordan would throw that in--if only to show how messed up their relationship is.
And than I also find it very funny, because clearly the real decision maker in the relationship is faile. She constantly forces him to do things that are against his character. It becomes a very typical sitcom type of situation--almost comical. He is always trying to resist her but it is he who always ends up submitting to her will.

 

[Non]

I agree, all of the Aes Sedai are characterized like bickering old ladies.. They barely blow anything up. Only good female character is Lanfeur (excuse my spelling)

Love Perrin, Mat, and Rand though, kick ass characters.

Oh wait, i like the Aiel women too, they're great.

 

[dustinzgirl]

Really long and rambling stuff.

Less than two hundred years ago it was legal for a husband to spank his wife in Brittain. Women in America could not own land, vote, or as far as I understand it be divorced. In many countries that are not westernized, women are subservient to thier husbands. Heck, I know women in modern America that are subservient. I think that to understand the women in these books, you really have to remove the modern feminism ideals. I'm not saying that is how it should be, I'm just saying thats how it is in some cultures. I think these women did miraculous things by going against traditions and forging thier own status as leaders, particularily Egwene. Not all cultures value women of independent thought, and if you look--really look--at the culture created in Wheel, its very akin to ancient English practices where the majority of women were pretty, soft, and malleable. In 1920's America, the only reason women went to school was to learn how to be a lady, women didn't go to college, they went to finishing school.

I think its rather sad that people would expect the women in books to all be Red Sonja's. Not all women are. Not all women WANT to be. I think the women were written at a time where the cusp of power was being changed, in as much as women who marched to allow voting in America were both leaders of other women and wives to thier men, except perhaps those crazy fem extremists.

So you have women who were raised to be farmer wives rather than independent women suddenly being thrust into the male dominated world of war and violence and espionage. Since we can pretty much say this hasn't really happened in westernized nations for a long while, its hard to say exactly how the women would react. I know I whine a lot when I have to do things I really don't want to do--for example, if I have to take out the trash (men's job in my house) I will complain about it, just as if my man has to cook dinner (by that I mean order pizza) he will complain about it because its different than the way we expect things to be.


Oh, and at least these women got off thier butts and worked hard to do what they felt they were responsible for, Mat and Rand and Perrin all tried to run from thier responsibilities. Why don't we make a thread about what a crybaby Mat is or what a pansy Rand is or what a selfish shirker Perin is?

PS: As for Siuan being a big whiner, um---how many men could handle losing all thier money, power, and prestige? Anyone have the stock broker suicide statistics from the Great Depression?

Seriously.

PPS: Faery, you know, the women in Wheel were going against everything they had been raised to be to fight in the war of all wars. That takes a lot more guts than most women I know could possibly ever have. For example, do you think that you could give up all your traditions and become a subservient wife and walk two steps behind your husband like the traditional Chinese sometimes still do? Probably not, that would take a LOT of commitment. Similarily, you would not expect a woman raised to be a subservient obedient wife to suddenly work in construction and raise her family as a single mother, that takes a lot of commitment also. Not saying either never happens, but it takes a certain kind of strength to be that kind of women (or man) and do the unexpected while still honoring how you were raised.

 

[The Pelagic Argosy]

I think it's a little surreal that feminists, such as ourselves, can get so worked up about fictionalized sexism when there is plenty of the real stuff to worry about. Certainly, the world Jordan created for this series has sexist elements. However, as has been pointed out, he set this story in a faux-medieval milieu, with a few tweaks. You can argue that the world is inconsistent, in that so many women in this story hold political power, while there is subservience of women on the domestic front. On the other hand, as dustinzgirl pointed out, that isn't necessarily an unrealistic approach.

I haven't read very far into this series myself. In fact, I just finished the bit in The Great Hunt over the hullabaloo about the women's apartments in Fal Dara. Women make the rules, men can't enter without an escort, but the men would die defending them, etc. That's all very chivalrous - in both the positive and negative sense of the word. Tension between the sexes is obviously a major theme running throughout this series. There is the saidar vs. saidin stuff. And then there's the silly stuff: men wearing swords and armor and women fussing with their hair. Whatever. It can certainly get annoying, but it's meaningless to the real world.

I don't think I could read and enjoy many books if I wasn't able to put aside my personal values, even my deeply held ones - especially my deeply held ones - to see things from other points of view.

That's kind of a grandiose statement to make in regards to this series, which, though I admit it's entertaining, isn't really that good. It's just a patchwork of stereotypical fantasy themes and characters. It's beautifully detailed, but not very deep. Both the female and male characters are two dimensional. Maybe if Jordan had spent more time exploring characterization, rather than going into such minutiae over stonework and junk like that, it would be a little more satisfying.

I also don't think it's fair to make judgments about Jordan himself over this. I don't know anything about the man; for all I know, he was a raving misogynist. But I don't think you can accuse him of being a sexist based on his novels any more than you can accuse Agatha Christie of being a murderess.

 

[Thadlerian]

Thank you for enlightening posts, dustinzgirl and Pelagic Argosy. There is, however, another aspect to the gender issue of WoT which I wonder if you would like to consider. Strength and general sexism aside: At large, it seems to me that male characters appear far more sympathetic than females - more likeable as characters. This seems to be pretty categorically.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether this is a matter that can be relatively universally agreed upon, or whether I as a man perhaps am inclined to react more negatively to female than male characters.

 

[dustinzgirl]

Thank you for enlightening posts, dustinzgirl and Pelagic Argosy. There is, however, another aspect to the gender issue of WoT which I wonder if you would like to consider. Strength and general sexism aside: At large, it seems to me that male characters appear far more sympathetic than females - more likeable as characters. This seems to be pretty categorically.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether this is a matter that can be relatively universally agreed upon, or whether I as a man perhaps am inclined to react more negatively to female than male characters.

Actually, while I find Mat adorable, I don't like him. He's a big sissy la la whiner boy. If my son shirked from chores and responsibilities that much, I'd cuff his ears. Rand can't accept himself and is not a true leader, he does nothing to motivate others aside from being tattooed. Perin is a great man, but sacrifices the many for his wife, without realizing that his job as a leader is to sacrifice himself, he is selfish. Honestly, the only man I like is Lan. Now there's a good man. A little too stuffy though, he should smile more.

Yes, I spend way to much time thinking about such nonsense.

PS: I fuss with my hair every day. And I worry about my clothes when I go out in public. Ok well not the latter one, but if its a big occasion I like to be gussied up. Does that make me not a feminist? (I really hate that term anyways, I think I'd rather be a social equalist, if such a term exists)

 

[The Pelagic Argosy]

Thank you for enlightening posts, dustinzgirl and Pelagic Argosy. There is, however, another aspect to the gender issue of WoT which I wonder if you would like to consider. Strength and general sexism aside: At large, it seems to me that male characters appear far more sympathetic than females - more likeable as characters. This seems to be pretty categorically.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether this is a matter that can be relatively universally agreed upon, or whether I as a man perhaps am inclined to react more negatively to female than male characters.

Personally, I'm not mustering much sympathy for any of these characters, male or female. Mostly, I'm enjoying these books for the world building, which is what I'm into right now. And I find The Great Hunt to be suspenseful, considering how slow the pace was in Eye. I can't point to any of these characters as my favorite. I suppose I like Lan too, but only because he has a sexy, aloof, Aragorn-y thing going on. But that's just another big, fat fantasy stereotype. Rand and Mat both seem like idiot men-children country boys. I guess Perrin doesn't annoy me so much. As for the women, it seems the only way Jordan knows how to portray them as "strong" is to give them magic powers and/or feisty tempers. And it's not a good sign that you can summarize an Aes Sedai personality by what color Ajah she's in. Rather than explore characterization, Jordan simply gave each of his characters about two moods, demonstrated through annoying nervous ticks.

I agree with what you said here...

However, it should also be noted that Jordan does nothing new, he just emphasizes a trend that has become common in SF/F (and mainstream media as well?), most likely as a half-hearted attempt to satisfy feminism, in which the formula has become the following: Female strenght = Power. Male strenght = Propensity to do objective good. Use of this formula can be found with writers as diverse as David Eddings and Kim Stanley Robinson.

The "damsel in distress" is no longer accepted; she has now been replaced by the "incompetent tomboy".

The "damsel in distress" has been replaced by Xena. Maybe writers these days are afraid to give female characters any genuine, compelling weaknesses and risk being accused of creating "weak" females. So, they fall back on types.

Could a writer these days get away with creating a female lead character who is happy as a farmer's wife? Could I admit sympathizing with such a character?

dustinzgirl: I do appreciate your point that feminism is more complicated than the politics and history would make it seem. I'm perfectly happy as a wife, a mommy, and a secretary. And I'm equally happy to carry on my feminist rants anonymously online. If you'll excuse me...my man needs a sandwich.

I also appreciate a good discussion about fantasy and feminism. I just don't know if the WoT series is worth it.