Female characters really suck

[sci-fi girl]

I wouldn't say that all the female characters suck. Just Nynaeve, Elayne and Faile. They are beyond irritating. First time I ever wanted so bad to be able to slap novel characters.

 

[himynameisbored]

okay the trio, each one has a different personality.
And even though I can very easily see Elyane & Egwene as 16-year-old (oh wait they are 16) crazed twilight fans (thank god there aren't vampires in WOT), I've seen plenty of fool girls here this year watchign tv and shriek because Taylor Lautner took his shirt off.
But the girls grow up some and have more too them than that.
Elyane is a peacemaker and sees beyond the bickering of all other Aes Sedai from nearly day one once she starts narrating. She doesn't let men walk over her quite the contrary she leads them all in a merry dance kind of fun seeing her toy with Rand. she may be the only sentimental character. if anyone remembers goose feathers i give a gold star.
Egwene i'll admit is a silly twit who wants to know everything do everything and be in charge of everything, which she does which is really annoying, but she grows up some and certainly doesn't submit to men otherwise she'd have been married before Gawyne left Cairhein

The only thing annoying about Nyneave is she pulls her hair and in the first few chapters of Shadow Rising fawns over Lan in a very sickening manner compared to how she normally acts cooking his food midnight strolls eliminating every color Lan doesn't like from her wardrobe. But that's to show her loyalty. She is probably the best character for it. Who runs off with the halfmad boy she babysat to to do something that was called impossible for 3,000 years with knowledge that every evil person on the planet will sense it and come after her.

Berelain certainly submits to no one. well she did to rand, after they were attacked by reflections, but i don't think that really counts. and Lanfear compelled her, but that submission counts even less. Guessing you all seem to be ignoring her cause she seems to only use her body to control people and everyone else hates her for it. but really she must be incredibly strong to put up with all the High Lords of Tear.

Tuon certainly doesn't so what if she lets herself melt in a kiss to Mat, that doesn't weaken her at all. I would imagine anyone would let their guard down with the person they love.

the Athan Miere woman, and the Aiel women, seem to be very capable.

 

[GeneralFrag]

While I agree that the women in the story all seem to have a very limited range of behavior, most of which can be viewed as negative, it seems to be overlooked that the male characters have the same flaw as well. All of the boys of the story, (the trio from the Two Rivers) respond very similar when it comes to their relationships with women as well. Now I believe that a man shouldn't hit a woman and have always done what I can to avoid a situation that might cause me to test that restraint, but Mat? Perrin? RAND!!!??? Really? My life is in jeopardy and I still hesitate to kill a woman? Not to mention the fact that all of the male characters typically allow the women to talk/treat them any way they wish. I see WAY more submissive behavior by the male characters in the story than from the female characters.

And Faery...
I understand how you feel about the paddling thing, a man shouldn't strike his wife/girlfriend except perhaps in self-defense. But I have serious doubts that you truly believe in equality as you say.... I'm willing to bet you yourself have "punished" your husband or boyfriend for not behaving in a manner you wished. Women withhold sex, damage cars and other personal possessions, stop cooking or performing some other service that they always have - all in an effort to correct a man's behavior.

 

[xyz]

I am working on a prequel for this series right now. It will be called "The Life and Times of Nyneve and a History of the Womens Circle". It will also include appendixes for the styles and fashons of all the kingdoms since the breaking of the world.

 

[Rahl Windsong]

Personally I think we all need to imagine a world where women are the real power, and lets face it that is just about the exact opposite of our "real world". For thousands of years women have had more power then men because men who could channel the "one power" were almost instantly driven insane because of the taint in the male part of it all.

Also the women, afraid of loosing their power, would seek out men who could channel and relieve them of their power making them nothing more then basic simpletons in that process.

They all know of the prophicies saying that a man who can channel must be allowed to do so or they will all perish when the Dark Lord comes, but they still maintain their domination of men, again afraid to loose their power.

So I think it all boils down to the fact that women have had the power for so long and they are so afraid of loosing that power that they have become what they are now. Whinning, manipulating, and most of all dominating all men they see basically because they can and if they don't they will loose that power forever.

Yes it can get annoying but I think Jordan really wanted to show how society could go the complete opposite way things are in the real world....

 

[JagLover]

Just Nynaeve, Elayne and Faile. They are beyond irritating. First time I ever wanted so bad to be able to slap novel characters.

Nynaeve is awesome in the later books. As a poster I read elsewhere said, she just needed to get laid.

 

[xyz]

....Yes it can get annoying but I think Jordan really wanted to show how society could go the complete opposite way things are in the real world....

I'm pretty sure he was just dragging things out to make more money selling books. It obviously didn't matter how bad they were, people would still buy them.

 

[Kierkegaurdian]

Nynaeve is awesome in the last couple of books, yes. Elayne was tolerable on and off, but now, I am annoyed with here (as of ToM). Egwene scored major points in TGS, but still seems a bit silly in ToM. Seriously, in NO WAY does the White Tower trump the Dragon in anything! If the Dragon does not succeed, the world ends ... why can't Aes Sedai get that through their heads?

 

[C Of K]

In truth, the Aes Sedai as a group are just as important as the Dragon Reborn. No one Aes Sedai is, but all of them together are. It's not really a matter of the White Tower trumping him, so much as it is about them working together with him. He can't do what he needs to do without them.

Rand could fight the Dark One with a thousand companions, and still make the same mistake that Lews Therin did. In a way, I think the Amyrlin should have as much say in how they approach fighting the Dark One as Rand does.

It just so happens that Rand is more in touch with the state of the world than Egewne is. She's very good at weighing the affairs of the Tower. She lacks the governing experience that Rand has with the rest of the world. She's less empathic than Rand, and she is far removed from the dire condition that the world is in right now.

Because of that, she can't understand why he would actually break the seals on the Dark One's prison, and you'll notice that Rand didn't try to explain his reasons to her. At first I wondered why he didn't explain it to Egewne, but he did explain it to Nynaeve. Rand trusts Nynaeve more than he trusts Egwene, but that's not all of it. Throughout Towers of Midnight, Rand kept repeating that he doesn't have enough time. I think he purposely neglected to explain his reasons to Egwene so that she would do all the work of gathering the armies of the world together in a place of Rand's choosing.

It was actually quite brilliant of him.

 

[JP Murphy]

There is a lot of character growth in the later books. The girls are annoying as hell in the WoT it is true, but the women are fine. The problem is, there just happens to be a lot of girls.

Rand could fight the Dark One with a thousand companions, and still make the same mistake that Lews Therin did. In a way, I think the Amyrlin should have as much say in how they approach fighting the Dark One as Rand does.

Lews Therin did not make a mistake. He done what was necessary. The Fateful Concord denied him their strength, even as the initial plan (Choedan Kal) had failed and the Shadow was literally mere weeks away from total victory. Lews Therin saved the world and the people curse him for it.

Now sure the Amyrlin may speak her thoughts on how to approach fighting the Dark One.. and so may King Darlin or Rodel Ituralde but, contrary to what Egwene her self thinks, the Pattern spun out the Dragon for this work. It is his reason for existence. Egwene and the Aes Sedai have tried to usurp his rightful place and dictate the Pattern to their will.

And don't forget. Egwene doesn't have a right to speak for the majority of the female channellers in Randland. If it comes to it, Rand can go to the Wise Ones, the Sea Folk or he can even go to a random village in the Black Hills and find 56 female channellers who have remained hidden for centuries and have lost knowledge from the Age of Legends ! He can also go to the Seanchan.

The Pattern demands cooperation between saidin and saidar. The only question is will the Aes Sedai bow their necks to the Pattern or not.

 

[C Of K]

Lews Therin did not make a mistake. He done what was necessary. The Fateful Concord denied him their strength, even as the initial plan (Choedan Kal) had failed and the Shadow was literally mere weeks away from total victory. Lews Therin saved the world and the people curse him for it.

Actually, the people weren't the only ones who cursed him for it. You'll remember that the Dark One cursed him too. In a joint effort with men and women fighting the Dark One, neither Saidin nor Saidar would not have been cursed with the taint. Rand faces the same dilemma that Lews Theran faced. If Rand makes the same decisions that Lews Theran made, Saidin will be tainted again.

The Wheel of Time spun Rand out to fight a war against the Dark One. It spun the Aes Sedai out for the very same reason. The survival of mankind is also their very reason for existence. A lot of people seem to forget that. As a group, the Aes Sedai are every bit as important as Rand is.

And don't forget. Egwene doesn't have a right to speak for the majority of the female channellers in Randland. If it comes to it, Rand can go to the Wise Ones, the Sea Folk or he can even go to a random village in the Black Hills and find 56 female channellers who have remained hidden for centuries and have lost knowledge from the Age of Legends ! He can also go to the Seanchan.

It's not likely that there will be as many battles going on in Tel'aran'riod, where the Wise Ones are most useful. Their knowledge of channeling is not so impressive as that of the Aes Sedai. The same pretty much goes for the sea folk channelers, or anyone else. The Aes Sedai are by far the best suited to help fight at Tarmon Gaidan, and they are the only ones that bond warders, which gives an added advantage.

The Pattern demands cooperation between saidin and saidar. The only question is will the Aes Sedai bow their necks to the Pattern or not.

This does not mean they have to bow to Rand. Everyone, including Rand has to bow to the will of the Pattern. He's been forced to do things he didn't wish to do, and make compromises, in order to do what needs doing. Rand doesn't control the Pattern. It controls him.

 

[Rahl Windsong]

The majority of the female characters in Jordan's work are Aes Sedai and for thousands of years anyone who is Aes Sedai is more powerful then the average person. Granted some of these women are young and perhaps should not be as much control freaks as they are, however the entire Aes Sedai beliefs center around them wielding power for the greater good, and in that process they became bossy. Even the young ladies new to being Aes Sedai have been brought up thinking that Aes Sedai are to be obeyed without question so when they become one themselves, well you get the idea.

I think that is why Jordan wrote the female charactes that way in Wheel of Time, if you notice that Min is not really like that and she is one of the only female characters that is not Aes Sedai, well there is Faile I guess...heh Anyway thats my take on it...

 

[Null_Zone]

I can only assume Robert Jordan had a very strange relationship with his wife or it was all a relationship in joke that no one else gets.

 

[JP Murphy]

Actually, the people weren't the only ones who cursed him for it. You'll remember that the Dark One cursed him too. In a joint effort with men and women fighting the Dark One, neither Saidin nor Saidar would not have been cursed with the taint. Rand faces the same dilemma that Lews Theran faced. If Rand makes the same decisions that Lews Theran made, Saidin will be tainted again.

Well, Rand is Lews Therin. He understands his original plan was imperfect and also acknowledges that if he did have the women's help at that time then it would have been a major disaster (I personally think it would have made things much more interesting).

But the fact still stands that Lews Therin saved Creation. Either tainted Power or end of existence as you understand it.. which would you rather it have been?

The Wheel of Time spun Rand out to fight a war against the Dark One. It spun the Aes Sedai out for the very same reason. The survival of mankind is also their very reason for existence. A lot of people seem to forget that. As a group, the Aes Sedai are every bit as important as Rand is.

Yes and no. Whilst it is true that the Aes Sedai's original mission was for the betterment of mankind which includes fighting the Dark One the Aes Sedai post-Breaking have forgotten this. To people like Egwene and Elaida (two very similiar women) to be Aes Sedai is to preserve the Aes Sedai. All they care about is themselves. Where as Aes Sedai like Rand Sedai and Latra Sedai from the Age of Legends it is all about preserving the world.

And I sorry but as a group they are not as important as Rand. Female channellers as a group, yes. The Aes Sedai specifically? No. Rand is literally the focal point of Creation. He's a walking avatar of the Light. He's human yes and prone to human failings but that does not change the fact that he is the most important thing.. ever. Essentially if you oppose Rand you oppose the will of the Pattern as that is what he is. The Pattern made flesh.

It's not likely that there will be as many battles going on in Tel'aran'riod, where the Wise Ones are most useful. Their knowledge of channeling is not so impressive as that of the Aes Sedai. The same pretty much goes for the sea folk channelers, or anyone else. The Aes Sedai are by far the best suited to help fight at Tarmon Gaidan, and they are the only ones that bond warders, which gives an added advantage.

There are only 3 Dreamwalkers amongst the Aiel.. there are hundreds of channellers. The Aes Sedai have made the same mistake as you. Underestimating the Wise Women. They do a lot of things differently, some things weaker than Aes Sedai and some things stronger.

And no the Aes Sedai are probably the least competent to be really doing anything at Tarmon Gai'don. The Seanchan attack on the White Tower should clearly demonstrate this. They were completely mauled by the Seanchan and only by the intervention of Egwene, a girl who learned most of her channelling outside of the Tower, was able to drive the Seanchan back (and which the most powerful sa'angreal the Tower had at that).

Sure, the White and Brown Ajah's could offer a lot of help if properly handled. Especially the White Ajah. But under Tower guidance that will never happen.

This does not mean they have to bow to Rand. Everyone, including Rand has to bow to the will of the Pattern. He's been forced to do things he didn't wish to do, and make compromises, in order to do what needs doing. Rand doesn't control the Pattern. It controls him.

This is exactly why people must bow to the Dragon. He isn't simply a tool of the Pattern.. he is the Pattern. Post-VoG anything he does will be ultimately guided by the Pattern because Rand Sedai has completely surrendered to it.

And remember Rand Sedai isn't somewhat backward farm-boy any more. He's a 400+ year old guy who was the greatest man in the greatest Age of human history who has been there and done that. He has more knowledge than any Third Ager about.. anything. This is the man who debated philosophy and theology with Ishamael who practised the sword with men like Sammael and Demandred, who spent his free time pursuing Aginor's latest scientific discoveries in "M'Jinn's Science Today". He stood on the slopes of Shayol Ghul and Sealed, however imperfectly, the Dark One in his Prison.

The Light shines outside of this man's arse quite literally !

 

[C Of K]

But the fact still stands that Lews Therin saved Creation. Either tainted Power or end of existence as you understand it.. which would you rather it have been?

Or it's possible that he nearly destroyed Creation. He took action against the Dark One, yes. All well and good. But I've never read anything in the books that suggested his were the right actions...The greatest accomplishments with the Power were always performed by men working alongside women. Lews Theran/Rand/and whatever he was called before the Age of Legends has fought the Dark One countless times. Despite this, male channelers did not go mad until Lews Theran marched with the Hundred Companions. This leads me to believe there are ways to defeat the Dark One that will prevent him from tainting the Power at all. Lews Theran failed where his predecessors succeeded. That is where his mistake was. In the past, others accomplished what he failed to do, and so the world burned. The fact that he could not come to an agreement with the women does not excuse the consequences.

Yes and no. Whilst it is true that the Aes Sedai's original mission was for the betterment of mankind which includes fighting the Dark One the Aes Sedai post-Breaking have forgotten this. To people like Egwene and Elaida (two very similiar women) to be Aes Sedai is to preserve the Aes Sedai. All they care about is themselves. Where as Aes Sedai like Rand Sedai and Latra Sedai from the Age of Legends it is all about preserving the world.

Those are presumptuous statements. Moiraine risked her life so Rand might succeed. There is also nothing to prove that Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends viewed the rest of the world any different than the current incarnation. In the AoL, they suffered a schism during the world's most dire moment of need, and yet the Pattern still used them, much as it uses the Aes Sedai of this Age.

And I sorry but as a group they are not as important as Rand. Female channellers as a group, yes. The Aes Sedai specifically? No. Rand is literally the focal point of Creation. He's a walking avatar of the Light. He's human yes and prone to human failings but that does not change the fact that he is the most important thing. ever. Essentially if you oppose Rand you oppose the will of the Pattern as that is what he is. The Pattern made flesh.

I don't think the Dragon is supposed to be the Creator. There is no doubt that Rand is a great focal point of power, but he is not the only power out there. The world needs him, and he needs the Aes Sedai. To ignore those women, AGAIN, is folly that will doom all future men who can channel. Perhaps Lews Theran once thought as you do, and as a result of that he murdered his whole family. I don't think Rand wishes to repeat that particular incident. That means he needs to work with women who can channel. Aes Sedai are his best bet. All through history, up until Rand lead them out of the Waste, Wise Ones did not participate in battle with the One Power, which = no experience in battle with the One Power. Not the type of people I would hang the fate of the world on, fighting the most terrible army in history. The Seanchan women are chained slaves, which automatically gives them a slower reaction to anything that happens. The Seanchan aren't anymore likely to bow down to Rand, than the Amyrlin is, either. And perhaps the main thing that separates the Aes Sedai as a group, from any other is that the Wise Ones, the Seanchan, the Sea Folk channelers and the wilders could NEVER gather the armies of Randland together to fight at Tarmon Gaidan.

And no the Aes Sedai are probably the least competent to be really doing anything at Tarmon Gai'don. The Seanchan attack on the White Tower should clearly demonstrate this. They were completely mauled by the Seanchan and only by the intervention of Egwene, a girl who learned most of her channelling outside of the Tower, was able to drive the Seanchan back (and which the most powerful sa'angreal the Tower had at that).

Other than Nynaeve, Egwene is the most powerful among them, and any battle will have casualties. That is the nature of battle, and yet, during the attack Elaida was still their leader, which is no longer the case. A good general can make all the difference in the world, and Egwene has proven her abilities in that regard. Don't ignore the fact the the Seanchan failed to capture Tar Valon. That is the ultimate goal of any war effort, and it didn't happen. If you don't believe the Aes Sedai were a fighting force before Egwene took over, you ought to now.

This is exactly why people must bow to the Dragon. He isn't simply a tool of the Pattern.. he is the Pattern. Post-VoG anything he does will be ultimately guided by the Pattern because Rand Sedai has completely surrendered to it.

And yet the pattern does not wait on him. If that were the case, he could conceivably give himself all the time and resources he needs to prepare for the last battle. But he isn't the pattern. He doesn't know how things will end. he doesn't even know if he will survive.

 

[Heck Tate]

I laughed so hard when I first saw this thread. I've been following the WoT for about ten years now and only discussed the books with one friend who is also an avid reader. He thought the women in the series were well done, but I was sooooo tired of them.

COFK I like what I've seen of your responses in this thread, you seem to really know your WoT.

I'm especially interested to see how Egwene's character will develop in the final book. Right now we see a scheming, controlling Amyrillian who can just barely force the tower to act unified. What we're going to need to see for the Last Battle is someone that Rand can work with comfortably to fight the shadow.

There is a RJ short story called The Strike at Shayol Ghul, in which the time during the Age of Legends just before the world was broken is described. In this the breaking of the then co-ed White Tower is described. It explains that the female Aes Sedai all backed what was later called the Fatal Concord, preventing any women Aes Sedai from going with the 1000 companions into Shayol Ghul. By the end of Towers of Midnight we see Egwene prepared to repeat the same mistakes by preventing people from fighting alongside Rand.

Robert Jordan had said many times before his death that he had the end of WoT planned and written long before it even became a popular series. I am curious to see how both Rand and Egwene's futures unfold and whether the cycle will repeat itself or he can truly seal the Dark One away from the Pattern.

Whatever the outcome of the whole thing, I think Min has been the only female character I've really appreciated the entire time throughout the WoT series.

 

[C Of K]

Welcome, Heck Tate. Yeah, this thread is a real barn burner. It seems like it's been going on forever, though. I've read most of the books, and skimmed through a few, but my knowledge of the WoT isn't anything special.

I do have a certain understanding of storytelling that I sometimes like to brag about. Certain themes make certain stories work a certain way. The biggest difference between JP Murphy and I, is that I believe there was a lesson to be learned from the very first Prologue of the series. It wasn't just a regular WoT chapter. It wasn't even just a regular WoT Prologue. The lesson of Dragonmount has carried, and been developed, throughout all the books. One of the strengths of the Wheel of Time is that people, like the Dragon, get to come back and hopefully learn from the mistakes they made in the past.

Egwene and Rand's relationship should turn out to be a matter of great interest in the last book. I think the Pattern has made her a leader because there is no one better suited to help Rand by leading the Aes Sedai. Unlike JP Murphy, I see no indication that any group of wilders is as well equipped to fight on Rand's side in the last battle as the Aes Sedai are. Wise Ones don't channel to win wars, and damane have been beaten into submission, and consider themselves worthless wretches. Windfinder sea folk are generally adept at weaving wind and water, for obvious reason. That can come in handy in battle, but their abilities aren't very diverse to be of much help in the Last Battle. I've also never read anywhere in the books where any group of wilders were involved in forming or leading a circle of female channelers. The Aes Sedai are practiced at it.

Brandon Sanderson has improved on many of the female characters that perhaps once annoyed me. I haven't been annoyed with any of them in any of his books. Come to think of it, his versions of Rand, Mat, and Perrin haven't annoyed me either. I'm not saying he's a better writer than RJ was. He's just a different writer, who perhaps recognized that it might be better to make the females of the series more like-able

 

[Heck Tate]

I actually prefer the Sanderson versions of Mat over the RJ ones, I find the new Mat much funnier while still comprised of the same core values that RJ made him with.

As for the female channeling characters I agree with you 100%. Wise Ones seem to enjoy their position slightly to the side of whatever conflict is going on so that they can steer it without being in the way of everyone else. Windrunners prefer the opposite, they don't want to be anywhere near the conflict, they just want to live on their ships and be happy. As insufferable as Aes Sedai often are, they are the only women channelers whose responsibility it is to aid Rand on the front lines of the Last Battle. At this point in the series, I don't know if Rand can or is even interested in restoring the White Tower to the way it was in the Age of Legends, but either way it has been clear for sometime now that both men and women must fight together to beat the Dark One.

I'd like to take the time to briefly backtrack and discuss Nynaeve's character development throughout the series. Nynaeve started out as one of my least favorite characters, but she has grown more tolerable as she learns to accept the authority of others. Egwene's character development seems to have gone in the exact opposite direction. She started out as a good character, but after repeatedly placing herself in positions in which she believed herself to be alone, her character (IMO at least) deteriorated to someone who can't even conceive of someone else coming up with a better idea than anything she thinks of.

I've got to go to class for now, but later I will post some more of my thoughts on the Nynaeve/Egwene character reversal to hammer home my point.

 

[C Of K]

Heh. I would be ok with the Sanderson Mat if he could keep his mind off of breasts a little more than he does. I felt horrible when he gave up half the light of the world. Just horrible.

Egwene still has growing to do, which is a good thing in my book. If the Aes Sedai are going to make it through to the other side of the Last Battle, they will have to work with men. The two sides of the Power are equal again, so if Egwene can't bring herself to work alongside Rand, then disaster waits ahead.

The Nynaeve/Egwene switch was artfully done. I've come to like them both better than I liked them in Eye of the World. Back then I think Egwene wanted to be too much like Nynaeve, and then like Moiraine. But she was quite young so I guess that is to be expected. I don't think Nynaeve knew exactly what she wanted to be. I found it kind of strange that the wisdom would leave a village that had just been attacked to chase after a few runaways. I think she wanted to be wisdom, but at the same time she wanted to make something different of her life before it became too late to do so.

The only character that has annoyed me more than she used to is Elayne. Sometimes I think she forgets that she is pregnant.

 

[Heck Tate]

Sorry, I got really wrapped up in X-Men discussions, and yes I understand how stupid that sounds.

Yes, CofK, I was so very glad that Elayne only had minor appearances in Towers. There were times when I was reading her parts when I thought she acted more like a child than a rational adult, much less a queen of a powerful nation. I wanted to strangle her when she had her stupid plan to trick the captured Black Ajah. In many ways, Birgette is Elayne's voice of reason and acts almost like Elayne's mother or older sister. IMO, Birgette is perhaps the only female character who I found likable from the beginning and has not done something which I've found incredibly off-putting. This may be because for all intensive purposes, Birgette is a man in a woman's body: the ultimate tomboy character. I especially liked her keen observation of Mat's canons, where she says something along the lines of "This will forever change the way wars are fought."

I haven't seen it since I joined the site (though I certainly didn't read through all the WoT material) but I think Aviendha is also a pretty likable female character in the series, though she definitely doesn't start off this way. I was disappointed that she had such a brief role in Towers, though I must admit, her visions were pretty awesome moments in the book.