Jaqen H'ghar

No, no, I am positive that she saw him. Its when she runs away from Tommen and Myrcella while she was chasing that black cat. She gets lost and finds herself deep in the Red Keep, I think with the Dragon Skulls. She hears people talking as they make their way through the room. Its Varys, dressed as that jailkeeper, Rugen and she describes Mopatis. (Or GRRM describes what she sees) Then Varys is asking Mopatis to make haste and etc etc with Dany. Mopatis replies how the Khal won't stir himself til this and that are done etc etc..

I actually think that the words round or fat might have been used to describe Mopatis. Maybe even more than just that, but I can't remember.
 
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about, too. I'm positive that she never sees them because she has to remain hidden in the dark. But Varys definitely says Illyrio's name and that's what she hears. I guess the easy way to end this debate would be to go read the chapters ;). I'll do it tomorrow if no one else has done it by then.
 
Yeah, I can't because I don't have that book on me at the moment, but if she doesn't see him, then how can she be thinking to herself as Varys is described to us "There seemed something oddly familiar with the man, as if she had seen him before" I mean, I could be wrong, but how can you see one fat man and think you might know him, but then miss one supposedly larger?

Would anyone be kind enough to reread that part so i can put my mind to rest? Or expound on the theory at all?
 
"Two men, she made out" Their shadows writhed against th sides of the well, tall as giants..."What would you have me do?" asked the torchbearer, a stout man in a leather half cape. Even in heavy boots, his feet seemed to glide soundlessly over the ground. A round scarred face and a stubble of dark beard showed under his steel cap, and he wore mail over boiled leather, and a dirk and shortsword at his belt. It seemed to Arya there was something oddly familiar about him. "If one Hand can die, why not a second?" replied the man with the accent and teh forked yellow beard. ...He was no one Arya had ever seen before, she was certain of it. Grossly fat, yet he seemed to walk lightly, carrying his weight on the balls of his feet as a water dancer might. His rings glimmered in the torchlight, red-gold and pale silver, crusted with rubies, sapphires, slitted yellow tiger eyes. Every finger wore a ring; some had two."

Sorry that was long.
 
Here is the description from Dany's POV in AGOT. I have the Mass Market Paperback, page 33...

"He moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man. Beneath loose garments of flame colored silk, rolls of fat jiggled as he walked. Gemstones glittered on every finger, and his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold.....He bowed his head, showing a thin glimpse of crooked yellow teeth through the gold of his beard."
 
Thanks guys for the posts from the PoVs. Ok, so now we have a potential theory, but something is missing. If Arya saw him in the Red Keep then why would she not notice him in the Temple. I have noticed though in GRRM interviews that state of minds from the characters have alot to do with things so maybe she just forgot or who knows? Then again, it might not even be Mopatis. Seems to me that crooked yellow teeth are poinently mentioned on Nopatis by Dany and the "fat fellow" in the Temple.
 
I don't remember her actually seeing him (in the Red Keep). I think she just overheard them talking. No, I guess if a desription were provided, then she actually saw him, eh?
 
Yeah, she definately saw Mopatis in the Red Keep with Varys. That's been proven by the descriptions written, but what we are not sure of 100% is the theory of Mopatis being in the Faceless Mans' Temple.

GRRM has stated on occasion the we should pay attention to the characters states of mind. Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her when he wanted a song, but in fact, the Hound never kissed her at all. GRRM went on to say that he puts in subtleties like that and wonders if his readers notice those menial things.
 
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I am using this thread because I want to make a link between Varys and Jaqen.

In AGOT, it is speculated a couple of times that Varys has the ability to change his appearance. He does this when talking to Illyrio when Arya spies them. He does this to Ned twice. The last being when he comes to him in his cell in the Red Keep after Ned is arrested. Both time, Ned thinks to himself that he would not of recognized him and he must be some sort of wizard to be able to do this.

It has been speculated before but now that I have reread AGOT, I am convinced that either Varys is a Faceless Man or possesses some magic that allows him to change his appearance so easily and within very little time.
 
I think Varys is just a really great make-up artist. Wasn't he a part of a travelling mummer's show or something? Aren't mummers the ASOIAF equivalent of actors? I'm not being sarcastic with my questions..my memory is getting rusty. I should do a reread like you.

Also, Varys' position doesn't really seem like a Faceless Man's style. Magic just wouldn't fit within the world so far. There's very little magic and it would be a bit heavy-handed to just make Varys have some magic. That's definitely not GRRM's style.
 
You could be right Viz. He does have a history as mummer but that is an unchecked and unconfirmed claim that he has made that could be a smokescreen to put Littlefinger and other members of the Small Council off.

Here is what is written up about him in Wiki:

Lord Varys, called "the Spider," is the enigmatic Master of Whisperers, or spymaster, for the Iron Throne of Westeros. A bald, fat eunuch of stylish dress, he usually affects a fawning, effeminate personality to hide his true feelings and motives. In keeping with this act, he often refers to spies as his "little birds". Many nobles he associates with find him distasteful and untrustworthy. He is a master of disguise, and knows many secret passages within the Red Keep.
Though nothing Varys says can be completely trusted, Varys has claimed to have been a mummer as a child, and his skill at disguises supports this claim. He also claimed to have been castrated by a sorcerer who used his body parts to cast a spell, leaving Varys with a hatred for magic. He started his career as a spymaster under King Aerys, who relied more heavily on Varys the more paranoid he became. Varys counseled Aerys to close his gates to Tywin Lannister once he learned that Tywin had joined the rebellion. Though he continued in his post for King Robert and his heirs, Varys seems to remain loyal to the Targaryens. He kept a secret arrangement with Illyrio Mopatis, who seeks to put a Targaryen back on the Iron Throne.
Varys gave the aid of his intelligence to many players in the game of thrones. Many of these people later suspected that, rather than help them, Varys only gave them enough information to manipulate them. Indeed, most of the people Varys "helped" suffered dramatic downfalls, including Lord Eddard Stark and Tyrion Lannister. When asked by Eddard, and later by Tyrion where his allegiances lay, Varys claimed that the purpose of his machinations was not for personal power, honor, or loyalty, but simply the best intentions for the realm as a whole.
Varys's reign as Master of Whisperers ended after he was forced to help Tyrion escape execution and murder his father, Lord Tywin Lannister. Though Queen Cersei put a reward on his head, Varys had vanished without a trace. After taking Varys's post, Qyburn claimed that spies with secrets to sell were quite common and easy to come by. Cersei used this to justify a belief that Varys had oversold his value to make people dependent on him and more vulnerable to his schemes.
 
ADwD Spoilers:

Varys' story about traveling with mummers is at least somewhat confirmed by Mopatis in one of the Tyrion spoiler chapters floating around out there.
 
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TK, I think that Eddard, Arya (unknowingly), Tyrion, Shae, and Jaime all caught glimpses of Varys in costume (or drag, if you prefer). I definitely felt that Varys changed his appearance as a mummer (an actor) would by using makeup, props, clothing, and body language. I did not get the feeling that his change of appearance was at all similar to the change of countenance that Jaqen showed Arya. Jaqen changed his face and hair, but not his clothes in front of Arya if I recall correctly.
 
Time for an unnecessarily long post :)

So I’ve been giving some thought to Jaqen after recent posts and then did my research through the threads. This seemed like the most appropriate place for a follow-up, but two others (as far as I can see) revolve around our friendly, neighbourhood hired killer:

Syrion, Jaqen and Ser Meryn
Faceless Men

I admit, I haven’t come up with much. I’m also guilty of plodding logic and summarizing the going theories, but I’m hoping this might provide a shoulder for someone else to stand on, or at least add some certainty to what we already suspect. So here’s my big contribution:

Manacles. Yep. There it is. Manacles. I did say I hadn’t come up with much.

Now I’ve presumed before that Jaqen was a prisoner entirely by choice and that he had no intention of reaching the Wall. Surely, he could just give everyone the slip at an opportune moment, I thought. Wrong. Instead, it slipped my mind that Jaqen was seconds away from being burned to death along with Rorge and Biter, only to be saved by Arya’s intervention. Surely he wasn’t just ‘humouring’ the situation by waiting to see if anyone would help? Later, of course, he insists on making up for the three deaths owed to his Red God – so there’s no question of the actual danger he was in. As difficult as it is to suppose that Jaqen couldn’t work his way out of manacles, we just have to take that at face value (even if taking a Faceless Man at face value sounds like a silly thing to do).

That being the case, surely he was in similar, very real, danger in KL’s dungeons, meaning he would not likely have made himself a voluntary prisoner on the off-chance of escape via being sent to the Wall. Does that mean Jaqen, as one of the world’s elite assassins, had previously screwed up, to find himself in the dungeons? That also seems highly unlikely. So maybe he performs some unknown task in KL and then submits to capture knowing that he would soon be North-bound? Except, why submit to capture when he of all people can move about with impunity? No sense there.

That leaves me thinking his mission in KL definitely required him to be a prisoner, to get at someone in the dungeons (as Kiwibird first suggested, I think). As Spock would say, “It is the only logical conclusion, Captain”. I believe it was Boaz(?) who first proposed that Jaqen was in KL to assassinate Ned on route to the Wall (which still seems to me an unnecessarily expensive solution – but it works, as Jaqen could’ve made it look like a freak occurrence. Even so, would anyone believe that the Lannisters weren’t responsible?). Or was it part of some FM agenda, paid for by someone else... if at all (after all, if the Faceless Men have an interest in Westerosi affairs, they couldn’t let their assassins be arbitrarily hired by just anyone who might potentially change the course of history in a single stroke). Or (as Boaz again supposed) was there anyone else that was a prisoner around the same time who, subsequently, mysteriously died? Any advances on this idea since the re-reads?
Food for thought, and my morsel of manacle-logic on the side. More on this (hopefully) as I continue a leisurely re-read of the books.
 
No One, I did post (on the first page of this thread) that Jaqen might/probably have been on a mission to murder Eddard on the journey to the Wall. You're correct in saying that it seems like a very expensive way to get rid of Eddard... but mayhaps that's the price to keep their hands clean and Eddard's mouth shut. I'd like to know for certain why Jaqen was in the black cells... assassinating Eddard is my best explaination, I'd gladly have someone give me a better one.

Also, I think it'd be ironic (and something that would appeal to GRRM) that Arya is introduced to her profession by the man who was contracted to kill her father.
 
Boaz said:
No One, I did post (on the first page of this thread) that Jaqen might/probably have been on a mission to murder Eddard on the journey to the Wall. You're correct in saying that it seems like a very expensive way to get rid of Eddard... but mayhaps that's the price to keep their hands clean and Eddard's mouth shut. I'd like to know for certain why Jaqen was in the black cells... assassinating Eddard is my best explaination, I'd gladly have someone give me a better one.

Also, I think it'd be ironic (and something that would appeal to GRRM) that Arya is introduced to her profession by the man who was contracted to kill her father.
Click to expand...

That's what I was referring to, yes (I just wasn't sure if that was the first time it's mentioned). And I'm starting to agree - it's a sound theory when you think about it.

I hope it's not true though - if, as you say, Arya found out, it would ruin my hopes of Jaqen playing Big Daddy to Arya's Hit Girl.:D
 
Shae was able to recognize Varys when he was in drag when others could not. I say that because Jaqen says his appearance changes are simple tricks. Might make sense if Shae can see through them.

Speaking of Mopatis in the red keep, what are the "little boys" that Varys has such a need of for. You know, the ones that need to know their letters. This will need to be spelled out for me.
 
Little birds, not little boys. And Shae's ability to recognize Varys is one reason that I've postulated that she used to be one of his little birds...
 
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