The most significant SF novel ever?

[gully_foyle]

I read alot SF and i havent read Dune yet


People talk about it being popular but it isnt like people say its a must read for SF newbies.

So i have read most of the classics but no Dune. Science Fantasy is not my fav part of SF maybe thats why i have stayed away from Dune without knowing it.

I was actually to the library to borrow it a couple of days ago but some loser havent returned it on time.

Conn, given Herbert tries to include alot of Islamic references in Dune, I'd really love to know what you make of it. And given your apparent hunger for good SF (yes, I read your posts), I think you would get a kick out of it anyway.

 

[Brigitte]

I would say anything by Jules Verne or H.G. Wells can be considered the most influential SF novel ever. Those two authors alone basically set the stage that we know and love today.

 

[Ian Whates]

So i have read most of the classics but no Dune. Science Fantasy is not my fav part of SF maybe thats why i have stayed away from Dune without knowing it.

Since when was Dune Science Fantasy?

A space-faring empire, genetic engineering, cloning, hostile alien environments... I guess Science Fantasy changed when I wasn't looking.

 

[Ursa major]

Since when was Dune Science Fantasy?

I agree that Dune and the original books are, basically, SF not Science Fantasy. I do have two doubts, though:

• genetic memory (but given that I'm not a molecular biologist or geneticist (or whatever), I couldn't say for certain that it's impossible. );
• prescience (which I always think of as fantasy/supernatural - but even here, some of it could be seen as advanced analysis of future possibilities).

Even those these features play an important part in the books, the tone is one of SF.

 

[j d worthington]

On the subject of Dune being sf or science fantasy... I'd go for sf, with some pseudoscientific or fringe-scientific (at the time) ideas as part of it as well. Very much science fiction, and yes, very influential. Not, however, the most influential sf book, nor the most significant (assuming different meanings for the two in this context). The most influential would quite possibly be either The War of the Worlds or The Time Machine, I'd say, as while they may not have introduced the themes they deal with, they give them their best and most powerful development up to that time (and for some time after, actually); and they've remained in print ever since and remained among the cornerstones of the field.

And Connavar: I highly recommend Dune. It, too, is a rather richly textured book, with plenty to think about, as well as some very memorable characters and an almost archetypal milieu. It has its flaws, of course, but it really is a magnificent achievement.

As for the other Dune books by Frank Herbert (I don't count the others after his death), while they all have something to offer, I'd say the best are the first four books (Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God-Emperor of Dune), though I wouldn't go looking for the same thing from book to book, as the emphases change and even the feel of the books changes considerably, as he explores different themes (as well as different aspects of his creation). I will also admit to not particularly liking Children or God-Emperor the first time round, but finding them quite fascinating on succeeding readings....

 

[iansales]

I have a somewhat unorthodox view when it comes to Herbert's oeuvre. I think the last two Dune books, Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse Dune, were better written than the earlier ones. I also think Herbert's writing was at its best when he kept the sf light, as in The Green Brain and The Santaroga Barrier. His ideas could be a bit hit and miss - Whipping Star has lots of good ones, The Eyes of Heisenberg has lots of silly ones - and his writing often suffered as a result.

 

[suupaabaka]

I think Ridley Scott had the first option on the project, but it was getting bogged down so he went off and made Alien instead. And thank god for that. Finally the project landed in David Lynch's lap.

Supa, why do you think Journey to the Center of the Earth was the most significant? Whilst I can see the resonance of H.G. Wells work through the centuries, I am not so sure about Verne's work having as great an impact on SF, or on modern SF.

The book was published in 1864, and told the tale of some intrepid scientist-adventurers travelling deep into the crust of the Earth. Their travels include the discovery of a huge cavern lit by electrically charged gasses, a subterranean ocean, dinosaurs and other weird and wonderful things. While this might seem tame and perhaps slightly silly today, for a book 143 years old I think it's a marvellous example of speculative fiction.

 

[gully_foyle]

Okay, I'll grant that there were some stand out works from the industrial age that really got SF going along. But, the golden age of SF was really the post war, specifically the cold war era. It just strikes me that Dune was published at the height of that era, and really did change the tone of SF, indeed, taking it into new and completely imagined worlds, where previously only fantasy like LOTR had gone. Also, it truly was a best seller, and probably brought a lot of general public people to SF, much like War of the Worlds would have done back in 1898, or Journey to the Centre of the Earth would have back in 1864.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying its a great book (but it is), but I think it really changed the way SF was being written and being read. As J.D. said, "It has its flaws, of course, but it really is a magnificent achievement."

 

[Werthead]

Easy. Frankenstein, the first inarguably-SF novel ever written.

 

[iansales]

Er, it was a Gothic novel.

 

[j d worthington]

Easy. Frankenstein, the first inarguably-SF novel ever written.

Ummm, not inarguably -- I've argued with several on that point (I argue that it is, they that it is not); it also falls well into the supernatural category, so it's a transitional novel between the Gothic and the science fiction tale.

Incidentally... out of curiosity, why do you classify it as a science fiction novel? (People's reasons differ, I find, and I'm always curious on this point....)

 

[suupaabaka]

Ummm, not inarguably -- I've argued with several on that point (I argue that it is, they that it is not); it also falls well into the supernatural category, so it's a transitional novel between the Gothic and the science fiction tale.

Incidentally... out of curiosity, why do you classify it as a science fiction novel? (People's reasons differ, I find, and I'm always curious on this point....)

I suppose you could argue that the (dubious) science used to resurrect the hodgepoge of cadaver bits added to the science fiction aspect, and that it may have seemed more plausible back then than today. I'd rather link it to horror, myself.

On another note, I'd argue that Arthur C. Clarke, Robert A. Heinlein and Isaac Asimov did more to popularise and further science fiction than anything written by Frank Herbert. Dune contributed to space opera, most definitely, but I'd hesitate to label it the most significant SF novel ever.

(In addition, Arthur C. Clarke did "invent" the concept of a geostationary telecommunications satellite, though it's not really related to his fiction )

 

[Werthead]

Well, if people really want to argue that Frankenstein isn't SF, I'm going to point them in the direction of Brian Aldiss' argument in Billion Year Spree. But basically it is SF because there is no supernatural component. Frankenstein instils life in his creation (which is a precursor of the android) through purely technological means.

Er, it was a Gothic novel.

It was a Gothic SF novel The two are not mutually exclusive (see also Alastair Reynolds, particular the Revelation Space Trilogy).

Other major early SF writers of great importance include Jules Verne and HG Wells, who probably must win some kind of prophetic award for featuring a nuclear bomb in a novel written in 1914 (The World Set Free).

 

[gully_foyle]

It was a Gothic SF novel The two are not mutually exclusive (see also Alastair Reynolds, particular the Revelation Space Trilogy).

I have heard it said of the Revelation Space Trilogy that they are gothic SF, but apart from having black covers I am yet to discover what makes them gothic. Please illuminate me.

I agree that Frankenstein is SF, though it was written in response to a suggestion of a supernatural story. So, given that Frankenstein is SF then yes, it is without a doubt the most significant, and undoubtedly influential SF novel of all time.

I should have said "modern" in my first post, not that I was thinking it, but then we would all sorts of heated discussions about what "modern" means.

 

[manephelien]

Frankenstein may or may not have been science-fiction. Sure, the monster isn't brought to life by supernatural forces, but neither is there any attempt in the book to explain the technology behind it (it's only in the films that the force is revealed to be electricity). It's also an appallingly poorly written book in my opinion. I've read some other classics from the 19th century, such as Verne's works (most in the original French) and The Time Machine, and while the writing style is somewhat affected by the era, they're still very readable. Mary Bysshe Shelley has a moral to her story, and can't seem to stop herself hitting the reader over the head with it. Gets pretty tiresome after a while.

This is always going to be a matter of taste to some degree, so I don't think we'll ever reach a conclusion on this one, although it's interesting to see what people deem significant enough.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Sure, the monster isn't brought to life by supernatural forces, but neither is there any attempt in the book to explain the technology behind it (it's only in the films that the force is revealed to be electricity).

The technology isn't explained, but given the background of the book, and the time in which it was written, it's pretty obvious that electricity was supposed to be the force that brought the monster to life. Mary Shelley had discussed with her husband and Lord Byron the possibility that galvanism might be used to reanimate a corpse, and it was a subject of what you might call family interest, since when Percy Shelley's first wife drowned a few years earlier, attempts had been made to revive her with electricity. Mary Shelley didn't explain the technology, because she didn't know she was writing (possibly) the first science fiction story.

 

[Connavar]

Conn, given Herbert tries to include alot of Islamic references in Dune, I'd really love to know what you make of it. And given your apparent hunger for good SF (yes, I read your posts), I think you would get a kick out of it anyway.

Well that made it much more interesting for me. Not often you hear about islamic references in SF.


I was gonna read Dune anyway cause i try to read all the big SF books old or new. But this hole thread and the talk about how important it was or wasn't made me think "i gotta see what the fuss is about"


If it my bookshop has the masterworks version of the book i will get it today when i go to my bookshop.

 

[Werthead]

Well that made it much more interesting for me. Not often you hear about islamic references in SF.

Have you read Kim Stanley Robinson? Muslims play a key role in his Mars Trilogy and in The Years of Rice and Salt, where the Black Death wipes out 100% of the population of Europe and Islam becomes the dominant world religion (Samarkand becomes the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, for example). They're also featured in Peter F. Hamilton's Night's Dawn Trilogy (particularly the second volume) and in some of Dan Simmons' work. Simmons went a bit strange after 9/11 and I suspect a lot of his work is heavily offensive to Muslims, though.

I have heard it said of the Revelation Space Trilogy that they are gothic SF, but apart from having black covers I am yet to discover what makes them gothic. Please illuminate me.

Since everyone and his uncle argues about what 'Gothic' means, this isn't an easy one to answer. However:

Spoiler

The Captain of the Nostalgia for Infinity is a living being being consumed by a plague but strives to do his best what's left of his crew, which struck me as a dark, powerful image. The giant cathedrals circling Hela waiting for God to blink at them again is a potent Gothic image. The Clockmaker in The Prefect falls into that category as well, especially what it does to the head of the Prefects and what her colleagues have to do to save her. Diamond Dogs is Gothic to its very core; the engimatic construction on the desolate planet and the humans slicing parts of their humanity away in order to conquer its secrets.

 

[HardScienceFan]

Is it useful to draw an arbitray dividing line starting from Gernsback's Amazing?

uh the Time Machine is pretty important,I think.
it certainly started a whole subgenre

 

[iansales]

Have you read Kim Stanley Robinson? Muslims play a key role in his Mars Trilogy and in The Years of Rice and Salt, where the Black Death wipes out 100% of the population of Europe and Islam becomes the dominant world religion (Samarkand becomes the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, for example). They're also featured in Peter F. Hamilton's Night's Dawn Trilogy (particularly the second volume) and in some of Dan Simmons' work. Simmons went a bit strange after 9/11 and I suspect a lot of his work is heavily offensive to Muslims, though.

I wouldn't recommend the Hamiltons. From what I remember, he has one Muslim character referring to Jesus as an "infidel prophet", proving how little research he did on Islam...