Tyrion's Third - Tywin and the Greyjoys.

[TK-421]

Kiwi is 100% correct here.

 

[MIDNIGHT]

I found your connections kinda strange. you say they are kinda like Vikings and yet you say they are bad sailors. Vikings where among the best sailors the world have ever seen. Their ships where nothing short of amazing, and in many ways far better then the ships we had at the time. It where the Vikings wich where the first to discover North America though they did not realize it, using Greenland (even now connected to Denmark) as a stepping stone. They could harass the entire north coast of Europe with ease, wich is saying much. Because those seas are a lot more dangerous then the one in the Middle sea.

Also it seems clear from the chapters, that it is not the ships preventing the Ironborn from going to far from land, but their own fears. Those like Euron who are more bold succeed in their intensions. If you look at the middle ages, all ships stayed within sight from land. Not only because they did not have proper navigation tools, but also out of fear that the land was flat and that if they went too far they would fall off.

You are right in the fact that the Vikings were the greatest sailors of their time. Yes they made it to North America, and for their era that was a truely remarkable feat. Not to mention they were great warriors. Now the middle ages and Westeros aren't exactly parallel to one another. Similar but not the same. Its like the Vikings existing along side of say Christopher Columbus ( well not quite, but a more similar ship style ) is how I invision the iron fleet versus the large war galleys. Personally I think Davos would blast Victorian out of the water, but considering my distaste for the ironborne, its no wonder. Also the Vikings did not have a lot of competetion at sea. Had the coast of europe had galleys at the time, I think the Vikings imprint on history would be even less. The Vikings existed between the 8th and 10th centurys and galleys around the 15th and 16th.

 

[Boaz]

For speedy sailing the longship was great. The Vikings arrive seemingly at the speed of light and left again just as quickly. The shallow draft allowed the Norsemen to sail up rivers and land on beaches.

In AFFC, the Redwynes, Hightowers, and Martells are said to use longships also. Yet the greater seamanship is granted to the Ironborn. Their seamanship was not enough to prevent their defeat at the hands of Robert Baratheon. In pitched battle, the galleons, carracks, and barques of the Redwyne fleet proved superior to the longships. Their higher decks would allow them to fire down on the Ironborn and their greater size would allow for them to bring double, triple or more of the Ironborn's numbers.

 

[MIDNIGHT]

YAH. What Boaz said !!

 

[Shacklock]

Psssh, but Longships mean Ironborn have a greater reach. They can sail up the Mander all the way to Highgarden, or up the Fever etc.
Carracks, Dromonds and Galleys cant do that ;P

 

[Boaz]

You're right, Shack.

Longships vs. Dromonds, Carracks, et al is comparable to a fight between Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Rock Marciano.

Mayweather is undefeated at 150 lbs. He is considered the best pound for pound fighter in the world. He would run circles around Rocky Marciano at the same age. But Rocky could take a punch... in fact he could take hundreds. And his own punches were lethal. Once Mayweather runs out of gas or cannot escape from a corner, Marciano would maul him badly. The differences in weight, size, and power would eventually tell. The best Mayweather could hope for is a TKO.

I'm not singling Mayweather out here. The various sanctioning bodies of Boxing have 17 weight classes from 105 lbs to 200 lbs. It's the same for Mixed Martial Arts, Wrestling, Judo, and all other combat systems. In a closed environment (a ring or cage), speed is negated in favor of strength. It's not that the smaller man cannot win, because he can. It's that when the big guy wins, he crushes his opponent so completely that the opportunity for permanent damage is increased.

If Bronn had to fight Ser Vardis in a 15' x 15' ring, I think Tyrion would have flown rather quickly.

The Iron Fleet can taunt, harry, raid, and sail circles around the Redwyne fleet. But in the end, the Redwynes will just assault the Iron Islands. It is then that the Iron Fleet must make a stand, i.e. they are cornered... and the mauling ensues.

This is the fatal flaw of the Longship and the Ironborn strategy. As long their opponents have only small flotillas, the Ironborn can have their way. But when their enemies gather huge armadas, the Ironborn are in mortal danger.

 

[Koopa]

You are right in the fact that the Vikings were the greatest sailors of their time. Yes they made it to North America, and for their era that was a truely remarkable feat. Not to mention they were great warriors. Now the middle ages and Westeros aren't exactly parallel to one another. Similar but not the same. Its like the Vikings existing along side of say Christopher Columbus ( well not quite, but a more similar ship style ) is how I invision the iron fleet versus the large war galleys. Personally I think Davos would blast Victorian out of the water, but considering my distaste for the ironborne, its no wonder. Also the Vikings did not have a lot of competetion at sea. Had the coast of europe had galleys at the time, I think the Vikings imprint on history would be even less. The Vikings existed between the 8th and 10th centurys and galleys around the 15th and 16th.

the vikings imprint is far from little though. a lot of what they did influences us still either directly or indirectly.

Also while i am not that good at naval warfare, it seems that cannons as we know them have not yet been invented, we are still at trebuchet level. Meaning that other ships are taking by entering/boarding. The more manoevrable ships from the ironborn are perfect for this. Also there is a type of (rather small) ship whoe name i frget, wich was set afire, and then set unmanned on course to the enemy vessel. Exploding i think on impact by casks of oil. These can be rather decisive in close combats if used correctly.

 

[TK-421]

This is the fatal flaw of the Longship and the Ironborn strategy. As long their opponents have only small flotillas, the Ironborn can have their way. But when their enemies gather huge armadas, the Ironborn are in mortal danger.

However, there are no huge armadas left to be gathered.

 

[Shacklock]

However, there are no huge armadas left to be gathered.

Exactly. Only largish fleet left is the Arbors, and that still is pretty small.