Simple Question:

Charming Serpent

Charming Serpent

Its ok to eat the apple.
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Dec 4, 2007
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Does anyone think we will get a very descriptive chapter about Rhaegar? More than just the brief glimpses that Jaime recalls? I mean more as in, a good 2 pages plus of nothing but him and not what someone thinks but an actual event etc...

I know you guys out there want it, but do you think it will happen?

I am going to guess that if it does come it will come from Varys, Barristan, this mysterious "Shadow" that GRRM was to have said knows almost everything or Jon Connington.

My surmise about this "Shadow" for the record, is that GRRM is referring to Asshaii by the Shadow. That place seems to hold all the answers and we can all assume that Dany is going to go there.
 
Yes, I believe we will because Dany is connecting with people from her family's past big time these days. I believe we will LOTS of stories about the lot of Targaryen characters and more of Rheagar's mysterious nature will be revealed.

I've hear nothing about a "Shadow" unti you mentioned it. Sounds interesting. I am also interested in Varys, what he's going to do, say and mean.
 
After the first book, the glimpses of Rhaegar have come from Jaime, Barristan, Cersei, and Aemon. Barristan says he was melancholy. Jaime says he was regal. Cersei says he was gorgeous. Aemon says he was studious. But let's not forget the remembrances from AGOT, I mean Robert had strong, strong feelings regarding the Prince of Dragonstone. Robert says he was evil.
 
Roberts hatred of Rhaegar seemed to be personal. Rhaegar seemed to have some connection with the death of Eddards sister whom Robert loved. Roberts judgment of Rhaegar is too emotion driven to give us an unbiased view of him.

I'd love to hear more of him, who was it that said something along the lines of 'the Targaryens were either mad or brilliant'?

From discriptions Rhaegar seemed to fit the latter.
 
To play devil's advocate...

Jaime grew up worshipping Rhaegar. Cersei was infatuated with him. Barristan and Jaime both worked for Rhaegar. Aemon was a family member. I'd say those opinions are all biased.

Robert's fiancee disappeared and was found to be in possession of Rhaegar. Rhaegar's father murdered Robert's fiancee's father and brother for demanding her return. Rhaegar's father than demanded the heads of Robert and Robert's fiancee's other brother. Rhaegar never returned Robert's fiancee. Rhaegar had sexual relations with her. Rhaegar then took up arms to militarily destroy Houses Stark, Baratheon, and Arryn and cover up his crimes.

Personally, I lean towards Barristan's description of Rhaegar as the most accurate. But the cold hard facts of Lyanna's story are hard to dismiss.
 
To play devil's advocate...

Jaime grew up worshipping Rhaegar. Cersei was infatuated with him. Barristan and Jaime both worked for Rhaegar. Aemon was a family member. I'd say those opinions are all biased.

Robert's fiancee disappeared and was found to be in possession of Rhaegar. Rhaegar's father murdered Robert's fiancee's father and brother for demanding her return. Rhaegar's father than demanded the heads of Robert and Robert's fiancee's other brother. Rhaegar never returned Robert's fiancee. Rhaegar had sexual relations with her. Rhaegar then took up arms to militarily destroy Houses Stark, Baratheon, and Arryn and cover up his crimes.

Personally, I lean towards Barristan's description of Rhaegar as the most accurate. But the cold hard facts of Lyanna's story are hard to dismiss.
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K, I think I'll just agree with you ;)

It goes in one ear and hour the other (or is that in through one eye and out the other?) when I'm reading books, all I remember is the jist of the story. I thought I was doing very well with my ever so insightful post :p

In my earlier post I might have been better off saying Robert was overly biased but from your recap of what happened between them maybe I was barking up the wrong tree.
 
Now I'm on the other side.

There's no way you could call Robert an objective judge of Rhaegar. Robert was an undisciplined, boorish, vindictive, alcoholic, salacious, ignorant lout with extremely poor judgement. The man was a hooligan! Our perceptions of Rhaegar are that of a monster until Jorah and Barristan start to tell Dany about her brother. We find out he was thoughtful, honest, intelligent, extremely principled, and faithful. He was the opposite of Robert in their eyes.

What is the real truth of Rhaegar? Kidnapper and rapist?... or... Scholar and gentleman?

What is the real truth of Robert? Misunderstood victim?... or... Jealous odd man out in a love triangle?

The one quality that Robert and Rhaegar shared was the ability to inspire men to follow them.

The following are observations and questions. They probably mean nothing...

Rhaegar had red rubies on his armor depicting the red dragon of House Targaryen. Lyanna loved blue roses. House Baratheon's colors are a black stag on gold. Now, Robert and Rhaegar met on the Trident. The trident's three tributaries are red, blue, and green. Robert (gold) is the odd man out in a love triangle with Rhaegar (red) and Lyanna (blue).

Was the Trident coincidental to the love triangle and the prophecy that Rhaegar strove to fulfill? Will the three heads of the dragon resemble the colors of Dany's dragons (black, gold/cream, and green) or will they resemble the colors of the Trident (red, blue, and green)?
 
Boaz said:
Our perceptions of Rhaegar are that of a monster until Jorah and Barristan start to tell Dany about her brother.
Click to expand...

They are? I'd say the exact opposite and that Jorah and Barristan simply confirm it. The only person that says anything negative about Rhaegar is King Robert and that shouldn't even hold much water to a person reading the series for the first time. We get positive comments even before Jorah tells Dany about Rhaegar.

I'd say the real truth is that he was a pretty stand-up kinda guy. Everyone liked him and most likely he would have made a great king. He and Lyanna probably actually fell in love. I don't think Rhaegar ever really loved Elia; she was just his wife in a purely political marriage. By all accounts Rhaegar is a very passionate man, I think even Robert admitted that. It would make a lot of sense for him to have a torrid love affair with another passionate person in Lyanna.
 
OMG....... Boaz, give me one moment to be cured if if my hangover and will pretty much ..... ( i said pretty!) prove with enough quotes that Robert was a friggin pride full drunk who Rhaegar was portrayed badly.
 
viz, who else in AGOT, besides Robert, gives us any information on Rhaegar? The only person I can think of off the top of my head is Viserys. Since Viserys is shown to be unstable like Aerys, Viserys' memory is not to be trusted.

Robert and Eddard are portrayed as just in their rebellion against Aerys II, the Mad King. Rhaegar is remembered by Robert (a drunken lout) as a kidnapper and rapist. And because Rhaegar supported his insane sire, he too is considered by the reader as a bad man.

It's not until Jorah first tells Dany of Rhaegar's gentle side that we realize that their might have been another side (or that Rhaegar has been villified in history by the conquerors) to Rhaegar.
 
Boaz, Eddard himself obviously respects Rhaegar. His thoughts reveal that much. Of course, Eddard also knows the real truth behind Rhaegar's actions. Ok, so we can't trust Robert or Viserys' memories and I think we should instinctively know that. Eddard gives us some insight but not a lot. So by the end of AGOT I guess we don't know much about him (I can't remember when Jorah tells Dany about Rhaegar, I'm just assuming it wasn't in AGOT) but we certainly can't assume he's a monster.

So all of the questions you asked above are valid if you're only considering the first book in the series especially if you conveniently choose to ignore Eddard's thoughts. However, we have 3 other books after that in which your questions are basically answered. I really don't think there's any great mystery concerning Rhaegar's personality. He was a good guy who got caught up in a bit of fanciful romance and died for it. Happens all the time ;).
 
Im gonna have to side with Boaz on this one. In the first book we see Rhaegar as a different sort of evil...theres really no information about him. We hear about "Mad" King Aerys, hear good things from Viserys about him but then see that guy is delusional, and Edd just avoids thinking of him. I cant find one quote from Eddards POV where he extols Rhaegars virtues in any way.

In fact I remember thinking bad thoughts about him in the second book when we get the reveal that Aerys burned Neds dad and strangled Brandon Stark in response to something Rhaegar did. It turns out it was what Rhaegar and Lyanna did but thats a story for a different time....anyhow how does a standup guy let this happen? It wasnt until one of Jaimes POV when he complains to Rhaegar before the Trident and Rhaegar says something to the effect of "when I get back, we'll sort out a lot of things" implying that he himself will be deposing Aerys, that I started to realize the truth was closer to Viserys than Robert's version instead of firmly in the middle. I even think that a lot of Aerys' madnesses were mediated by Rhaegar's presence and council.

Oh well.
 
I am too lazy to look through the books and start quoting so I'll try my best from remembrance....

In the 1st book Robert rants and raves about Rhaegar and how he raped and abducted Neds' sister, but if you reread those chapters Ned never really replies or says much at all to Robert when he goes off about that. That should imply that Ned is avoiding saying something for reasons. Next Ned is coming out of the brothel where Robert fathered another ******* and he wonders to himself if Rhaegar ever visited brothels and then he goes on to say no he didn't.

Jaimes' PoV of Rhaegar definately showed Rhaegar saying he was going to make changes and that he should have done it sooner. I believe that he didnt stop his father from killing the Starks and others because it states he couldnt be found. He was with Lyanna in the South.

Barristan is loyal, we all know that, but even he admits and tells the truth about Aerys to Dany. He tells her how mad he was etc... But he speaks very very highly of Rhaegar and his virtues.

Jeorah Mormont does the same and he fought AGAINST Rhaegar.

To me it seems Robert didn't know what was going on and only had his version of what had happened. Jaime himself says Robert didn't fight for true love but for "His pride and a pretty ****"? That DOES sound like Robert.

In almost every description of Rhaegar, by whoever, he seems to be a good albeit sad person. Hell, even Cersei notes that.
Everything points to Rhaegar being the "Shining Knight"
 
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Aegon and Boaz, if you guys want to say that Rhaegar appeared to be a bad guy based on what Robert thought of him, that's fine. I'm saying that didn't happen for me almost exclusively based on Ned. Ned's POVs set up Robert as a lunatic and therefore I never really paid much attention to his ravings. Dany's chapters do the same for Viserys. But Ned, everyone can agree, is honorable and trustworthy. When he doesn't have a bad thing to say about Rhaegar and even shows him a lot of respect with that little comment about Robert and brothels, that means a hell of a lot more to me. That simple sentence is chock full of undertones that we're supposed to pick up on. Later we hear more stories that just confirm what a great guy Rhaegar was.

I don't really know how you guys can question him at all (heh, but I know that's the point of these forums ;)). He appears to be the consummate hero. Even his one big mistake was song-worthy. You can't blame Aerys killing the Starks on Rhaegar. He wasn't around. Also, blaming him for not being around is just as bad. He's a good guy but not clairvoyant and it certainly was not his responsibility to sit around and babysit his crazy father.
 
Charming Serpent said:
Everything points to Rhaegar being the "Shining Knight"
Click to expand...

It's that very fact that makes me doubt Rhaegar's virtues. If I could sum this series up in one sentence, I'd pick 'THERE ARE NO SHINING KNIGHTS!' with capslock included.

Rhaegar was attractive. Rhaegar was a true romantic. Rhaegar was a great fighter, honourable and brave. And the only guy to vehemently dispute any of this was a drunken ladies' man.

Rhaegar's only definite failing appears to be that he's dead. There is no other character who is so close to the 'true knight' stereotype.

So I think that we, like Sansa, are being led on a merry song and dance, and the other shoe will eventually drop with regard to Rhaegar.

Me? I think Rhaegar and Lyanna did love one another. But Lyanna was a Stark, bound by honour. I doubt she would have dishonoured her betrothal by running off with a married man. So Rhaegar really did kidnap her, and really did hold her against her will, because he loved her and because he thought he had to a prophecy to fulfill.
 
Arya: child. Lyanna: adult
Arya: wartime. Lyanna: peacetime
Arya: thinks her entire house is dead. Lyanna: knows her house is alive and kicking, and is betrothed to the Lord of Storm's End, head of house Baratheon.

Yep. Definitely a noticeable difference there. Namely, Lyanna had everything to lose. Arya has nothing. Even more reason why Lyanna wouldn't dishonour her family, but Arya would.
 
We don't know anything about Lyanna except for the fact that Arya reminded Ned of her. Willful, reckless and somewhat tomboyish. Pretty too, but other than that I don't think anyone can accurately say what she would have or would not have done concerning honor or her house.

For all we know, Rhaegar could have told her about the prophecy and she saw her part in it and went willingly. Or, like stated above, Rhaegar maybe couldn't convince her and took her away against her own will.

No one knows .... yet.
 
It's very possible that Lyanna "dishonored" her engagement to Robert. Only Eddard seems to be wholly devoted to that Stark honor. Even Robb couldn't uphold it. Nah, although we can't say for sure either way, I believe her to be more a wild child with some bleeding heart romanticism in her as well. Almost like a combination of Arya and Sansa but heavier on the Arya side.

Rhaegar also had everything to lose but that didn't stop him from dishonoring his marriage. What we have are two people engaged or married to people they don't care much about until they meet their real partner in each other. Love and romance often take over especially when you throw in a prophecy or two.
 
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