Simple Question:

[Fourth Hunter]

Now I'm on the other side.

There's no way you could call Robert an objective judge of Rhaegar. Robert was an undisciplined, boorish, vindictive, alcoholic, salacious, ignorant lout with extremely poor judgement. The man was a hooligan! Our perceptions of Rhaegar are that of a monster until Jorah and Barristan start to tell Dany about her brother. We find out he was thoughtful, honest, intelligent, extremely principled, and faithful. He was the opposite of Robert in their eyes.

What is the real truth of Rhaegar? Kidnapper and rapist?... or... Scholar and gentleman?

What is the real truth of Robert? Misunderstood victim?... or... Jealous odd man out in a love triangle?

Maybe they were both a little bit of each of the things that Boaz described them as. Maybe Rhaegar was a...well, I suppose gentleman and rapist don't really go together...but still. Isn't possible that he was civil and commited one poor action? And couldn't Robert be a misunderstood victim who was the jealous odd man out in a love triangle? Personally, I see them as both.

P.S. Sorry to go back so far, but I haven't been on this site in a while...

 

[Charming Serpent]

Lets also not forget a very good theory that has been posted as well ....

That the Knight of the Laughing Tree wasn't Howland Reed, but Lyanna herself. Aerys then commanded his son to find the mystery knight. The theory is that Rhaegar found the knight and it turned out to be Lyanna. Events then unfolded .... the queen of love and beauty, them running off etc....

If that theory is true then something happened between them if/when Rhaegar unmasked Lyanna alone.

 

[Charming Serpent]

Personally, concerning my hopes of a detailed " Remembering Rhaegar" chapter, I would like to see or hear about his birth at Summerhall and EXACTLY what the hell went wrong there.

His thoughts or motives concerning his/his son's part in the Prophecy of TPTWP/AA Reborn.

And, of course, what the hell happened at the tournament at Harrenhal with Lyanna and the Tower of Joy mystery too.

Now, I am assuming that GRRM is going to have all this to reveal, but I sometimes worry if he won't show us all that I wanted above. So as to perhaps let Summerhall coincide with the Dunk and Egg novellas. (Which we know they died at Summerhall during Rhaegars "freak" birth/dragon experiment.

 

[Boaz]

The OP was about descriptions of Rhaegar. I fear I've taken us off on a tangent. My original point was that the feeling that I got of Rhaegar changed dramatically from AGOT to AFFC. I cannot recall Eddard having recollections of Rhaegar in AGOT, but that does not mean he did not... there's so much material to remember!

I think Rhaegar is comparable to Jaime and Tyrion in that GRRM starts by giving us the perception that these guys come from families with questionable scruples and unsated lusts for power. Yet as the story progresses, we find that Tyrion is searching for someone to love him for who he is... that Jaime realizes he's wasted his life so far... and that Rhaegar was held in high esteem by everyone who knew him personally.

Whoa! I just had a thought... about a possible major hypothesis... a major shift in our perceptions of the storyline... I need to log out and think about this one before I post.

Anyway, I admit that Rhaegar seems to have been a gentleman, a scholar, a leader... conscientious, hard working, ethical... everthing a Crown Prince is supposed to be... except in Robert's eyes.

 

[Fourth Hunter]

But I would argue that Rhaegar, as everyone does to some extent, displayed more civility than he would have had it not benefited him, and did kidnap/rape Lyanna.

 

[Charming Serpent]

*Taps fingers waiting for Hypothesis*

 

[Boaz]

LOL! Sorry, CS. I put it here. Bon appetit!

 

[Werthead]

Rhaegar is certainly one of the most interesting characters in ASoIaF and it's a shame we haven't really gotten under his skin yet (y'know, what with him being 17-18 years dead by the time of AFFC). However, the notion that he is 'evil' seems to mainly be something spread by Robert. Others disagree with that notion. Even Eddard seems to respect Rhaegar whilst not forgiving him his crimes. I get the distinct impression that Rhaegar felt himself motivated by prophecy and events he could not control. At the same time, this doesn't mean he really loved Lyanna. You could argue he simply used her due to pressing circumstances. A possible hypothesis for the sequence of events would be:

Rhaegar is born to Prince Aerys and Princess Rhaenys at Summerhall in 259 AL. At the same time an attempt to hatch the last three dragon eggs belonging to House Targaryen results in a blazing inferno that destroys the castle. King Aegon V, his elder son Prince Duncan the Small and the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard, Ser Duncan the Tall, are all killed. Prince Jaehaerys becomes king but is severely traumatised by these events and dies two years later. Aerys II becomes king.

So Rhaegar is born in what appears to be a fairly mystical attempt to hatch the three dragon eggs (the last three eggs, presumably, of the last Targaryen dragons who died a century earlier, and the same ones that the Princesses in the Tower used to play with and, indeed, the same ones that eventually passed to Daenerys and finally hatched at the end of A Game of Thrones: that's an interesting connection, isn't it?) and given what we've seen of their more practical natures in The Hedge Knight and The Sworn Sword, I would guess it wasn't Aegon V or Dunk's idea (Dunk doesn't believe in magic at all and young Egg seems far more keen on knights and combat than on his brother Aerion's dragon fantasies). Maybe Jaehaerys or Aerys'? If so that would imply that Rhaegar would be raised in a somewhat superstitious environment.

Anyway, Rhaegar grows up and disdains the use of armour and swords in favour of book-reading. But then he reads something in one of his books and decides he must be a warrior after all. From Maester Aemon's statements, it has been inferred that Rhaegar had been reading about the Prince Who Was Promised and the Song of Ice and Fire, decided that he was the PWWP, and signed up for arms training. This means that Rhaegar was already obsessed with the PWWP story when he was still a kid, long before he married.

Rhaegar becomes a solid if unspectacular warrior, earns the friendship of Ser Arthur Dayne, Lord Jon Connington and others, and marries Elia Martell of Dorne. Around this time, whilst corresponding with Maester Aemon on the Wall, Rhaegar realises he isn't the PWWP and that his son will become the prince instead. He also reads in the prophecy that the 'dragon must have three heads' and concludes he must have three children. Possibly rather unoriginally, he decides he and his wife must bear three children, who will be named Rhaenys, Aegon and Visenya.

So Elia gives birth to Rhaenys. However, we are told, repeatedly, that Elia's health is fragile. In a medieval society, childbirth is extremely hazardous and with Elia not very robust, I would imagine that childbirth would be life-threatening ordeal for her, even with the best maesters in Westeros on hand to help.

A few years later comes the Year of False Spring and the Great Tourney of Harrenhal, 981 AL. Rhaegar meets and apparently falls in love with Lyanna Stark. Well, she probably falls in love with him. She's only sixteen at the time, after all, and she cries at one of his songs and he names her the Queen of Love and Beauty. Did Rhaegar love her? Possibly. Or possibly he was thinking of the fact that the Prince Who Was Promised would be the product of a union between ice (House Stark) and fire (House Targaryen).

What happens next is difficult to work out as GRRM has refused to give a detailed timeline of the Rebellion and the build-up to it, partially because he hasn't got a blow-by-blow account of it but also because of a fear of spoilers. What's quite interesting is that given the age of Prince Aegon (the would-be Aegon VI) during the Sack of King's Landing, he must have been conceived around the time of the Great Tourney. It takes a bit of fudging (and means that Aegon would be 18 months rather than one year old by the time of the Sack, but this is workable) but it is possible that Elia and Rhaegar knew that she was pregnant and it was possible - maybe even likely - she would die during a second childbirth. As such it is possible that Rhaegar had a 'back-up plan' in mind involving taking a second wife to help the prophecy unfold.

So Prince Aegon is born and Elia doesn't die, but possibly nearly dies or is otherwise incapacitated. Maybe it is discovered she cannot have any more children (this is where a meeting witth Wylla would came in handy, since as handmaid to Ashara Dayne, who was one of Elia's friends in King's Landing, she might know more about this). This is important: Elia knew about the PWWP and the Song of Ice and Fire prophecy. Daenerys sees Elia and Rhaegar talking about it in the House of the Undying in Qarth. Maybe Elia even believed in it.

So, you now have a situation where Elia (who: believes that her husband must have a third child to fulfil the prophecy or the world will be destroyed by the Others; who is Dornish and rather more relaxed about the idea of sharing her husband with another woman (see: every female Dornish character in AFFC and indeed the whole series); and who is married into a family which allows polygamy) is down with the situation and perhaps okay with it. Or perhaps very much not okay with it at all but agrees to go along with it for her husband's sake. Or Rhaegar doesn't give a flying toss and does it anyway. He decides he needs a second wife to give him his third child, remembers the girl who fell in love with him a few months earlier and hightails it to Winterfell to take hold of her.

What is interesting is why he acted so precipitously. As the only female child of House Stark of the right age, Lyanna was obviously the only candidate for Rhaegar to marry. As she'd passed 16 (and indeed would be closer to 17 by this time) it seems likely that it would nearly be time for her to marry Robert (it's not clear why they hadn't married already, actually; maybe Ned was hoping Robert would get his wild oats out of his system before he married his sister), giving an element of urgency to Rhaegar's decision. Perhaps Rhaegar thought he could smooth things over with the Starks and Baratheons after the event (he probably didn't expect his father to burn Rickard and Brandon alive, thus triggering the war).

Anyway, so Rhaegar makes off with Lyanna, marries her and impregnates her at the Tower of Joy, and then goes off to the war and doesn't come back, leaving three Kingsguard to guard her during her pregnency. He could have done this because he loved her, or because he believed prophecy and the future of Westeros relied on him, or a combination of the two. We know the prophecy was a prime motivating factor in his decisions at this time and it seems logical it factors into the Lyanna situation as well.

Wow, that was long.

 

[Boaz]

Wert, thanks again. Your explanations are always well detailed... and besides, I like long posts.

One correction, Rhaegar's mother was Rhaella, not Rhaenys.

You think Rhaegar secretly married Lyanna? If he did so openly there has been no mention of it. And if he did marry her, why did he not produce her, the septon, the witnesses and the bedsheets? Proving that he married her may and having Lyanna plead with Eddard may have gone a long way to stopping the rebellion. This is one of the real sticking points for me.

If Lyanna was a willing participant in Rhaegar's mission, then she would have been a powerful voice of peace even if she was not married. On this one point, it makes more sense if Lyanna had been abducted and/or raped by either Aerys or Rhaegar.

Do you think that Elia was seen as not just being frail after Aegon's birth, but terminally ill?

You said that Rhaegar hightailed it to Winterfell and took Lyanna. I thought Lyanna was at court in KL at this time. You're saying he pulled a Bael the Bard on Rickard?

Are you saying that Dany's eggs were the very three that the Targaryen's tried to light at Rhaegar's birth or are you saying they were from the same clutch? I've not read any Dunk'n Egg.

Postulating that Elia encouraged Rhaegar to father another child upon Lyanna harkens to the tale in Genesis where Sarai encourages Abram to do the same... later their names were changed to Abraham and Sarah. Interestingly, Sarah and Abraham were brother and sister as well as husband and wife.

 

[viZion]

Even Eddard seems to respect Rhaegar whilst not forgiving him his crimes.

Boaz, now do you believe me? AGOT wasn't all anti-Rhaegar and the most credible source saw Rhaegar in a generally positive light. I actually meant to find the passages where Eddard has his thoughts about Rhaegar. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[Boaz]

I'll have to see it to believe it. I wast ever an obstinate heretic.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Boaz, now do you believe me? AGOT wasn't all anti-Rhaegar and the most credible source saw Rhaegar in a generally positive light. I actually meant to find the passages where Eddard has his thoughts about Rhaegar. Maybe tomorrow.

I think you misunderstand (and Im just gonna go ahead and speak for Boaz here because its easier than letting him flail away at defending his own points) its not that AGOT was anti-Rhaegar throughout....it was that there were two diametricly opposed views of him in Robert and Viserys and Ned really only thought of him once in a very ambivalent way. When you factor in that Viserys was obviously loony and Rhaegars father was the "Mad" king then its easy to see how one would think Rhaegar wasnt all that.

The significant factor is that our perception of Rhaegar changed as the next two books came out. If you Viz say you always thought Rhaegar was an upstanding sort from the outset then Im going to say either you are precognitive or are reinterpreting AGOT and lack self-awareness.

Therein lies what I personally like about the series, characters you enjoy become those you hate and those you hate become the ones you enjoy. If Jaime's story arc is any example then all it would take is one well crafted POV chapter and we could all think the Mountain is a misunderstood gentle giant who really only wanted to make a career out of crafting balloon animals but his size and tragic childhood forced him into becoming a psychotic death dealing monster....

 

[viZion]

The significant factor is that our perception of Rhaegar changed as the next two books came out. If you Viz say you always thought Rhaegar was an upstanding sort from the outset then Im going to say either you are precognitive or are reinterpreting AGOT and lack self-awareness.

You really can't argue about what I was really thinking the first time I read the series because you don't know me. Here's my original post in this thread:

Boaz, Eddard himself obviously respects Rhaegar. His thoughts reveal that much. Of course, Eddard also knows the real truth behind Rhaegar's actions. Ok, so we can't trust Robert or Viserys' memories and I think we should instinctively know that. Eddard gives us some insight but not a lot. So by the end of AGOT I guess we don't know much about him (I can't remember when Jorah tells Dany about Rhaegar, I'm just assuming it wasn't in AGOT) but we certainly can't assume he's a monster.

So, you see, I'm merely arguing that by the end of AGOT we don't know enough about him to have an opinion. I didn't think of him as a great hero or a great monster at the end of AGOT but was willing to err on the side of "good guy" because of Eddard. If you discount Viserys' positive stories about Rhaegar then you must also discount Robert's negative stories since both characters are obviously not quite right in the head. That leaves Eddard and his one slightly positive thought and his notable silence when Robert has his rants about Rhaegar. There's even a point in one of Robert's rants where he comes close to admitting a grudging respect for Rhaegar. I believe it was when he was getting armored up for the melee. So, again, I can't see how we're are *supposed* to see Rhaegar as a monster at the end of AGOT.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I do discount Robert, I do discount Viserys...what I dont discount is the evil of his father and his inactions....by not rebelling with Robert and Edd he's giving tacit approval to Aerys' reign. At least thats what I inferred and I dont think its unreasonable to do so. So lets call those three sources of information as a slight marring of his character and move on.

I reread all of AGOT this week and Ned only has one thought about Rhaegar that can be used to decide his feelings....that would be the aforementioned whore house line...

Ned wondered if Rhaegar ever visited whore houses like this one. Somehow he thought not.

I paraphrased because I really dont feel like finding the quote again....I dont see a whole lot of character discussion there. I see its more like he's referring to the absurdity of the situation. Also, I think the whores are a minor issue to Ned. Completely minor....at no point does he really judge Robert over the issue and even shares a smirk with his man Alyn who is delighted to have to search them. So I think its more like his incredulousness the Stannis and Jon Arryn went to a whore house...its just odd for a person of their rank and peculiarities to go to a common whore house not an indictment on their character. So yeah I think Ned still doesnt think well of Rhaegar or at least we still dont know at that point.

And let me say I reread all your posts here and I mistook your position and I was incorrect earlier, and that this is such a minor issue Im just arguing because Im bored in Afghanistan.

 

[viZion]

I'm just arguing because there's really nothing better to argue about. We need a new book, damn it.

How much do you think Rhaegar really knew about his father's actions? When Aerys was killing Starks, Rhaegar was off sleeping with one so he couldn't have prevented that. Other than that, what could he prevent? Aerys was king and probably not the first mad king in history. It's almost like everyone in the world was thinking, "Well, we've got a crazy king. Oh well, hopefully the next one will be better." If Rhaegar never runs off with Lyanna then Aerys probably completes his entire reign. I just don't think it's reasonable to expect Rhaegar to take up arms against his own father no matter how crazy he was. It could be argued that he was even a good guy because he defended his family until the bitter end.

 

[Werthead]

One correction, Rhaegar's mother was Rhaella, not Rhaenys.

Arse

You think Rhaegar secretly married Lyanna? If he did so openly there has been no mention of it. And if he did marry her, why did he not produce her, the septon, the witnesses and the bedsheets? Proving that he married her may and having Lyanna plead with Eddard may have gone a long way to stopping the rebellion. This is one of the real sticking points for me.

It's worth noting that we have no evidence of polygamy in the Targaryen family after Aegon IV. It may be that it was outlawed after Aegon IV's time and Rhaegar wanted it kept quiet. Agreed though that if he did marry Lyanna, announcing it openly may have helped avert the situation.

OTOH, Brandon and Rickard may have been burned and the rebellion underway by the time he married Lyanna.

Do you think that Elia was seen as not just being frail after Aegon's birth, but terminally ill?

It's a possibility. We are told, repeatedly, by Oberyn and others that Elia was quite frail and weak, and we know that childbirth is a risk and a big deal in this society even for a fully-healthy woman.

You said that Rhaegar hightailed it to Winterfell and took Lyanna. I thought Lyanna was at court in KL at this time. You're saying he pulled a Bael the Bard on Rickard?

I've never heard that Lyanna was in KL. Why would she be? I've seen theories that she may have been with Brandon at Riverrun and that's where Rhaegar grabbed her, but the general opinion seems to be she was Winterfell. Of course, ravens would get from Winterfell to the Eyrie (where Robert and Ned were) or to Riverrun (where Brandon was) before Rhaegar could even get to the Neck, possibly allowing others to intercept him, so you raise an interesting point here.

Are you saying that Dany's eggs were the very three that the Targaryen's tried to light at Rhaegar's birth or are you saying they were from the same clutch? I've not read any Dunk'n Egg.

No, they are the same eggs. The eggs themselves aren't mentioned in Dunk 'n' Egg (or at least the two stories published so far) but they are mentioned in GRRM's descriptions to Amoka of the Princesses in the Tower (the sisters of Baelor the Blessed, whom he locked in the Maidenvault in the Red Keep so they wouldn't tempt him with carnal thoughts).

The last Targaryen dragon was a stunted green whose clutch of eggs did not hatch. The eggs remained heirlooms of House Targaryen, but no-one could hatch them. Baelor the Blessed prayed over them for a week and nothing happened. He left them in the Red Keep, but it looks like that his younger sister Elaena got her hands on one of them:

Her hair was a platinum white with a bright golden streak down the middle, an unusual color even for the Targaryens. Elaena's most cherished possession was a dragon's egg whose stony shell showed the same colors as her hair. - GRRM's description of Elaena Targaryen

Compared with:

One egg was a deep green, with burnished bronze fflecks that came and went depending on how Dany turned it. Another was pale cream streaked with gold. - A Game of Thrones

So we can gather that the three eggs were laid by the last Targaryen dragon who was allegedly poisoned by King Aegon III, the Dragonbane (aided, according to AFFC, by the maesters of the Citadel). Nine mages came from the eastern lands to hatch the last eggs, but failed (presumably why Aegon III didn't just destroy the eggs: he thought them useless but with possible worth as trinkets). The eggs passed down through the Targaryens, none of whom could hatch them. It looks likely that after Baelor gave up on them, his sisters kept them as ornaments.

The three eggs next turn up in the Blackfyre Rebellion, when we learn (in The Sworn Sword) that a friend and agent of Daemon the Pretender, Quickfinger, tried to steal them from the Red Keep but was apprehended.

It has ben speculated that the three dragon eggs were taken across the sea with Daenerys and Viserys when they were infants and perhaps kept by Ilyrio Mopatis for his own ends. In a way it was actually a crap wedding present, because the eggs were rightfully Dany's anyway

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I'm just arguing because there's really nothing better to argue about. We need a new book, damn it.

How much do you think Rhaegar really knew about his father's actions? When Aerys was killing Starks, Rhaegar was off sleeping with one so he couldn't have prevented that. Other than that, what could he prevent? Aerys was king and probably not the first mad king in history. It's almost like everyone in the world was thinking, "Well, we've got a crazy king. Oh well, hopefully the next one will be better." If Rhaegar never runs off with Lyanna then Aerys probably completes his entire reign. I just don't think it's reasonable to expect Rhaegar to take up arms against his own father no matter how crazy he was. It could be argued that he was even a good guy because he defended his family until the bitter end.

Rhaegar knew enough...somewhere in one of the books before he rides off to the Trident he implies theres problems with Aerys that he will need to take care of when he gets back. I believe its in a Jaime POV. Plus theres the mauling of his mother at the kings hands every time he burned someone. No, Rhaegar knew his father was insane, and most nobles probably tread softly...which is why its either noble, or foolhardy that Lord Stark and Brandon went south to demand Lyanna back.

"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing."-Edmund Burke

It speaks volumes that Rhaegar eventually would have been moved to action. Aerys actions would have demanded treason to both a king and father. But the fact that it took as long as it did says he wasnt as big on his convictions as Ned was. Ned was willing to give up everything short of his life and family because he was unwilling to make war on children (Im speaking of sending assassins after Dany and not reopening the Cersei conversation), Rhaegar seemed a little more lethargic to act.

He was intelligent, capable, comely and a thousand other quality adjectives as well....but I dont neccessarily think he was noble and honorable as well. Not saying he's not, just its not a foregone conclusion.



Lordy, Werthead is thorough aint he?

 

[Charming Serpent]

Cripe, I hate when you guys post long, interesting and detailed threads that I am then forced to follow.

I think Rhaegar was more preoccupied (all his life , actually) with the impending prophecy. I mean, it entailed death on a massive scale against and enemy that showed no mercy even for the smallest warm blooded creature. Besides the every day trials of life (which can weigh even the best of us down) he had that to deal with amongst other things : His dad, the council, the realm, OTHER cities across the sea, negotiations, his own marriage etc etc...

Granted, could or SHOULD he have done something sooner about his fathers' reign? Of course, but so could have any single other lord int he seven kingdoms. Whether he or another called a Great Council while the king is alive, which his father would have been, in my opinion is tanamount to treason and no easy thing to do, let alone want to.

It was his dad, mad or not and it is no easy thing to just let go and cut off ones family member, no matter what the reasons. The Rebellion, in my eyes, was the final straw for Rhaegar. Hence his comment to Jaime that after this war he would deal with this. Don't forget Barristans' comment: That Aerys madness wasn't everyday since his birth, but just more frequent towards his later days. Madness doesnt mean he killed someone everyday for no reason. It could mean he cried to his fish at 2am and named them Lord of the Trident on Tuesdays.

Rhaegar, from what I am hearing in the books, seems to be grappling with some inner demons. Whether the prophecies, his mad father or perhaps inner turmoil over the grief of Summhall.

My point is though he was late in acting, perhaps indolent to a degree towards his fathers' reign, we should take into account of the possible reasons of WHY he acted so late.

 

[viZion]

He was intelligent, capable, comely and a thousand other quality adjectives as well....

Just to be clear, this is what I mean when I say I think Rhaegar was actually a real good stand-up kinda guy. I don't mean to imply that he was the absolutely perfect and always made the right decisions. He can still support his father while being a good guy. Charming Serpent makes a good point that it's hard to move against your father, your own blood, no matter what the reasons. It's not really something you can expect anyone to do. It would have been cool if he had decided to act sooner but it's also understandable that he didn't. I do wonder what his exact plans were for after the war. I.e. how does he fix the Aerys situation probably without resorting to something like murder? A moot point I guess but still something I wonder about.

 

[Charming Serpent]

I might have your answer Viz.

He was going to call a Great Council. Like when the one was called that made Egg king. I think the Old Bear talked about to Jon. They passed over a lackwit daughter and a baby of Aerion the Monstrous and offered it to Aemon. He passed and it went to Aegon.

From what I have gathered by that and some wikipedia and a sentence from Catelyns' PoV is that a Great Council is all the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms and they choose who would rule them.

I think Jaimes' PoV in which he remembers Rhaegar before going to the Trident has Rhaegar saying that after the battle or war that he was going to call together a council.

Now that doesn't solve the "wtf am i to do with my deposed crazy ass father" , but if I had to take a crack shot at it I would say either exile (which I dont think would work), just letting him "chill" around? or .. well .. thats it unless you go with what works in this case..... murder, like you said.