The Golden Compass Controversy

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

I think Lilth spoke about the indoctrination point well when she said "Whether a thing's fictional or not has no bearing on whether it's compatible or contradictory to your beliefs. Fiction has always included within it moral lessons and the author's convictions. A person can't help but push their beliefs, directly or indirectly, on others, since they are beliefs, and not mere ideas." I have no doubt that Pullman is doing this directly. The big difference between sending your child to Sunday School or the theater is that in Sunday School you expect they will be receiving Christian Education, in the theater you might believe you are dealing with escapism entertainment, and not consider that an atheist world view would be pushed.
It's a good verus evil story like most others :confused:

It just so happens the evil in this story is a meglomanical church type organisation
 
Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

BBC NEWS | UK | Golden Compass author hits back

Golden Compass author hits back
Warning: This story contains plot spoilers
By Julian Joyce
BBC News


The author of the book on which the new film The Golden Compass is based has hit back at critics who accuse him of peddling "candy-coated atheism".


Phillip Pullman won the Whitbread prize for the third part of his trilogy

Philip Pullman dismissed as "absolute rubbish" accusations by the US-based Catholic League that the film promotes atheism and denigrates Christianity.

"I am a story teller," he said. "If I wanted to send a message I would have written a sermon."

The Golden Compass - which stars Nicole Kidman - premiered in London on Tuesday.

Epic battle

The film also stars James Bond actor Daniel Craig and is based on the first part of Mr Pullman's best-selling His Dark Materials children's trilogy.

In the book - set in an imaginary world - the heroine Lyra fights against the Magisterium, an evil organisation some have interpreted as based on the Catholic Church.

We knew from the beginning that the producers of this film intended to leave out the anti-religious references. We think this is a great shame

Terry Sanderson, National Secular Society

The three-part series culminates in an epic battle in which God dies - at the hand of a child.

Those who have seen the film - which cost £90m to make - say the explicit anti-religious message of the books has been muted. But the Catholic League, which bills itself as America's largest Catholic civil rights organisation, has nevertheless launched a nationwide boycott campaign.


Nicole Kidman and Dakota Blue Richards star in the film

The League says that parents might be taken in by the toned-down film - but will then be fooled into buying the "overtly atheistic and anti-Christian" books.

League President Bill Donohue said: "Eighty-five per cent of the people in this country are Catholic or Protestant and I'd like them to stay at home, or go see some other movie.

"Pullman is using this film as a sort of stealth campaign. He likes to play the game that he's really not atheistic and anti-Catholic. But yes he is and we have researched this.

"This movie is the bait for the books."

Too many layers

But Mr Pullman - who is attending Tuesday's premier in London's Leicester Square - dismissed the Catholic League as "a tiny, unrepresentative organisation."

He told the BBC: "The only person Bill Donohue represents is himself.

"I don't want to talk about these criticisms about atheism in my books. It's too long an argument to have, and there are too many layers to the subject."

A spokeswoman for the Catholic Church in Britain said she was unaware of a concerted UK campaign to boycott the film: "We have not seen the film yet, so we cannot comment on its message," she said.


Armoured bears feature in a fantasy set in an imaginary world

Christian journalist Peter Hitchens said that while he opposed a boycott, he wanted parents to be aware of Philip Pullman's themes.

He said: "If you buy this book for your child, don't imagine for a moment that you are handing over a neutral story: this author has a purpose.

"Don't forget, this is a writer who has previously gone on the record to say he is trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief."

Anti-religious

Ironically, Mr Pullman has also come under fire from secularists - who say there's isn't enough anti-religious sentiment in the film.

Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, said: "We knew from the beginning that the producers of this film intended to leave out the anti-religious references.


James Bond actor Daniel Craig plays Lord Asriel

"We think this is a great shame. The fight against the Magisterium (Pullman's thinly-disguised version of the Catholic Church) is the whole point of the book. Take that away and the most original and interesting element of the story is lost."

Whether the Catholic League's campaign against the Golden Compass will succeed is open to question.

It previously spoke out against the Da Vinci Code - a fictional film that alleged Jesus married and had a child.

The film went on to become one of the highest-grossing movies of 2006
 
Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

Dogma was funny.

Bruce Almighty gets a pass by most Christians because though inaccurate at times, it is still essentially upholding Christian values. It's never actually irreverent, it's just having a bit of fun (same with Dogma, though with an R rating, a lot of Christians haven't watched it).

I'd have had much less complaint about the books, if Pullman hadn't so pointedly made his megalomaniacal church a Christian one (and an ill-understood mishmash of Church issues at that). It's a fantasy world, if he had simply wanted to show organized religion as evil, he could have invented a church easily enough, or done a better job of showing a corrupted church.

It's kind of funny, but I don't remember any general complaint (other than by a few conservative Christians) about the toning-down of Narnia when it was filmed. Both films are a case of maximizing box office while minimizing uproar.
 
Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

Except for the possibility of being not converted so much as deceived, by one's own lack of knowledge. That's what the concern is. That through thinking something through half-way, or nine-tenths of the way, one jumps ahead and thinks they've got a hundred percent of it, when they don't.

Interesting. By this logic, multitudes of young people "lacking...knowledge" have been "deceived" into Christianity - yet this practice is acceptable. An indoctrination that has led to endless wars, an inestimable loss of life and general planetary strife; giving birth to the greatest oxy-moron of all time "holy war".

It astounds me how Christians love to protest the actions of other groups, yet they see/heed few, if any, boundaries when it comes to their prolific proselytization of others in the name of Christ.

Seemingly we are to forgive the actions of "Christians" engaged in the active pursuit of their spiritual ideals, yet there is little compassion, patience, grace or understanding; much less forgiveness - all of which are qualities exemplified by Christ, when his followers disagree with the actions of others.

If you cannot enjoy and revel in the expansive nature of your own God-given mind and soul by considering, even celebrating another point of view - particularly a creative work of fiction, without feeling that your faith and its doctrine are at stake, then you have no faith. God is larger than our fear and pettiness...right? Why is it that we do not endeavor to expand our souls to fit God, but rather, we shrink God to fit us. Very sad.

If you cannot navigate a simple work of fiction and make a positive learning experience for your child - you are sorely lacking in basic, not to mention necessary parenting skills. And, I must admit, I am so sick of Christians in particular, demanding that the world be tailored to their beliefs as a substitute for good parenting. I personally enjoy being some one who can positively influence the young people around me....it is a GIFT I give to myself, those around me and the world at large. Note: a GIFT...not to be taken for granted and not to be demanded.

I saw the "Golden Compass", and like "Harry Potter"...at it's heart is such a simple, beautiful message that seems to get over-looked in favor of forcing agendas upon these literary works. In "Golden Compass" - man cannot live if he is separated from his soul or dis-allowed the God-given right to think freely. In "...Potter" - there is no greater power than our capacity to love. Simple...Christ-like even.

Best,
Greg
 
Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

... really good post ...

In fairness you could substitute just about any religion for Christianity in their. It's the fundamentalism that breeds the intolerance. There are many good Christians out there that don't force their religion down your throat. Just as there are many good Muslims, Buddhists, Spaghettists and so on.

Like you I find it infuriatingly stupid that some people can't enjoy a story because they allow a stupid world view to get in the way.
 
Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

There are still plenty of deceptions running around within the Church. But you'll agree that lies ought to be fought against wherever they are found, right?

Christians can't really celebrate worldviews that incompatible with theirs. Differences of opinion are allowed to a point (exactly where this point is has been hotly contested since Christianity's birth), but there's a point at which world views are simply incompatible with each other.

4Greg- I'm really not sure what to say to the rest of your post- I'd ask for more information, maybe some examples of the behaviors you find offensive, but I think that might be wandering too far off topic.

The books are rather thorny, not because they're fiction, or even because they're written from a non-Christian viewpoint (as plenty of books are), but because Pullman's vision of the Church is riddled with inaccuracies that may seem trivial to the non-Christian, but not to the Christian. (Such as his concept of a Church trying to undo original sin, and his view that Calvin could be reconciled to the office of Pope, etc.) They're not issues children are incapable of understanding, but they're issues that even Christians frequently don't understand well (much to their own detriment), so it's difficult to just sit a child down and explain it all- it would be rather a longer conversation than I think most children are interested in having. And I'll state again that I don't think the books are a total bag of lies (because there are aspects of them that can be reconciled to a Christian worldview); they're just not something I would expose any children I had to until they were teenagers.

If the books are the philosophical marvels that some people say, then a person's worldview has a lot to do with the issue, right? They're not simply stories to be heard and enjoyed for the moment, and tossed away as the next book comes off the shelf. That there's any controversy surrounding them means that they are functioning as more than simply fiction, but as fodder for debate of the mind.

Anyway, kind of back to topic- I haven't seen the movie yet- I might at some point, but my track record for seeing movies in the theater this year has been horrible.
 
Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

There are still plenty of deceptions running around within the Church. But you'll agree that lies ought to be fought against wherever they are found, right?

Certainly, but the church seems to exempt itself from the need for transparency in its dealings...yet Christ made things rather clear and simple. As for truth - there are as many "truths" as there are tongues to fashion them. The "truth", sadly, is not always simple

Christians can't really celebrate worldviews that incompatible with theirs. Differences of opinion are allowed to a point (exactly where this point is has been hotly contested since Christianity's birth), but there's a point at which world views are simply incompatible with each other.

"Can't", or won't? The fear-mongers who govern church bodies should be commended for their iron-clad indoctrination into a relationship that has little equity. I really don't think that a being as all-encompassing as God is that insecure....but, unfortunately his "church" is. That insecurity alone divides God from his "people". But hey - God has nothing to lose...the church, because they place value on wordly things, has everything to lose.

I frequently will celebrate a different viewpoint by giving it respectful and reasonable, agenda-free consideration and choosing how, if and how much of it is valuable to me and my values.

So, God himself populated a planet with beings capable of vast ideas, thoughts and feelings with the intention that some of those beings should choose a palette that is appropriate for everyone to create their lives from. Hmmm....really?

4Greg- I'm really not sure what to say to the rest of your post- I'd ask for more information, maybe some examples of the behaviors you find offensive, but I think that might be wandering too far off topic.

I just appreciate your reading it and giving a thoughtful response.:)

The books are rather thorny, not because they're fiction, or even because they're written from a non-Christian viewpoint (as plenty of books are), but because Pullman's vision of the Church is riddled with inaccuracies that may seem trivial to the non-Christian, but not to the Christian. (Such as his concept of a Church trying to undo original sin, and his view that Calvin could be reconciled to the office of Pope, etc.) They're not issues children are incapable of understanding, but they're issues that even Christians frequently don't understand well (much to their own detriment), so it's difficult to just sit a child down and explain it all- it would be rather a longer conversation than I think most children are interested in having. And I'll state again that I don't think the books are a total bag of lies (because there are aspects of them that can be reconciled to a Christian worldview); they're just not something I would expose any children I had to until they were teenagers.

Yet these things ARE true - within the construct of the story. Just as "red slippers" could take a little girl home if she clicked her heels....the willing suspension of disbelief, free of outside agendas, is a beautiful thing - in fact it leads us to a beautiful, though frightening for some, place - our imagination.

Children are able to come to a story and take from it the things that resonate for them, and those things will change for them as they grow. Why not read the book as a story...no agenda... Then revisit it, if your child feels strongly enough to do so. Then, consider the book from their new-found perspective - rather than acting out of fear based on an agenda that has been handed down for centuries. I question if that is too taxing for some parents, therefore it is easier to malign it and thus create fear around it - laying a "suppressing fire", so to speak.

My concern - our increasing fear of thinking for ourselves. See, I believe we're supposed to engage all our faculties and then seek outside wisdom only when we have truly exhausted our own capacity, rather than the "fast food" religion of "tell me what to think". A relationship is hard work - even a relationship with God.

If the books are the philosophical marvels that some people say, then a person's worldview has a lot to do with the issue, right? They're not simply stories to be heard and enjoyed for the moment, and tossed away as the next book comes off the shelf. That there's any controversy surrounding them means that they are functioning as more than simply fiction, but as fodder for debate of the mind.

Unfortunately, I believe both sides to be guilty of wanting to be right. Frankly, this just ain't the hill I'm gonna die on. It's a book...of FICTION.

Best,
Greg
 
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Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

If you fancy something amusing to read try this "warning" against The Golden Compass' alleged anti-Christian content. Some of the comments are very funny - although there are a lot of comments, and your eyes will probably start glaze about halfway down the page...

Oh, and if you think it's unfair (or even unChristian!) to scoff at these religious bigots, I'd just like to point out that not one of them has actually seen the film or read the book.


That's the annoying part. I love the part about the incorrect assumptions they make about atheism in America, and atheists in general. *rolls eyes*


I'm sooo tired of certain overly religious folks telling the rest of us what we should not read, or watch, or do, or anything else for that matter.

This same type of silliness broke out when the Harry Potter books and movies came out.

My personal advice to anyone who has a problem with Harry Potter, The Golden Compass, or anything else like that, DON'T see them, DON'T read them. And stop telling the rest of us who want to read and see them, not to!!!

We have the "Religious Right" in our country too. Thank goodness we ignore their craziness most of the time. Ugh. They drive me crazy.
 
Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

hmm you reminded me of that site again Kate - and to take this thread totally off track ;)
read through some of the comments and its quite worrying how many of the beleivers are gearing up for the end of the world. The other thing I could never truly grasp was that Pullman went on record to say that he is not anti=religeous, but anti organised religeon, which are two totally different, but related things, yet many choose to ignor the full story and look to the shorter -he is anti religeon- and go no further
 
Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

I watched the 'Making of Golden Compass' the other night. It looked to be very well made and directed. I'm not sure how the younger viewers will take the fight between the polar bears though.
I have yet to read the book and am now thinking of putting it on my 'to read' list!
 
Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

I saw the movie and thought there were no anti-christian overtones. I think people should get over themselves. Why not slate a movie like Little Nicky where they outright promote the devil and his family as fun loveable people (its cool to live in hell scenarios). I am no christian but lay off the Golden Compass already, there are far worse ant-religion movies out there that have been over looked.
 
Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

I'll be seeing the film on December 26th with a guy and his son who I originally recommended the books to, so that should be particularly nice.

The movie show on ABC TV gave it 3.5 stars out of 5.
 
Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

That's the annoying part. I love the part about the incorrect assumptions they make about atheism in America, and atheists in general. *rolls eyes*

Also why exactly is okay for the Pope to slate atheism to the entire world? If it had been done about any other group - Islam, Black people etc there would be outrage - but not when it's against atheists.

Vatican blasts 'Golden Compass' as Godless, hopeless - Yahoo!Xtra News

Also it's quite clear from the article that the Pope at the very least hasn't seen the films and I really doubt he's read the books. If he had he would know that this kind of nonsense is exactly what Pullman is against
 
Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

I saw the movie and thought there were no anti-christian overtones. I think people should get over themselves. Why not slate a movie like Little Nicky where they outright promote the devil and his family as fun loveable people (its cool to live in hell scenarios). I am no christian but lay off the Golden Compass already, there are far worse ant-religion movies out there that have been over looked.

Heh, that was a great movie.

Also why exactly is okay for the Pope to slate atheism to the entire world? If it had been done about any other group - Islam, Black people etc there would be outrage - but not when it's against atheists.

Vatican blasts 'Golden Compass' as Godless, hopeless - Yahoo!Xtra News

Also it's quite clear from the article that the Pope at the very least hasn't seen the films and I really doubt he's read the books. If he had he would know that this kind of nonsense is exactly what Pullman is against


Agreed. Atheists are still capable of being perfectly good people. Not everyone believes in fairy tales, and The Bible, to some, is a big one.

But apparently, The Pope, Vatican, and other overly religious organizations, don't seem to "get" this, or realize, that atheists can still be good people, even if they don't believe in God.

The Pope needs to chill out, man! ;) Watching movies like The Golden Compass is not the end of civilization.
 
Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

Saw the Movie, did not read the book. If this was supposed to be Anti-christian or anti-religion it definitely had it's claws removed and was more along the if-the-shoe-fits type of allegory. Didn't see any hopelessness either, instead saw empoweringness :p If the girl had stayed with the wicked mommy figure and done what she was told, then I would have seen it has hopeless. Pardon the strange grammararies and vocabulizations. . .
 
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I didn't see the movie promoting atheism at all because I don't know a single Atheist who believes in Magic or talking animals (there may be some but I don't know any). I DID see characters who were interested in the TRUTH of things; something that I'm sure plenty of religious institutions frown upon. This is so awsome, the Catholic church just went and proved pullmans point. hmmm. . . just had a thought about organizations that secretly do horrible things to children. . . if it hadn't been for that vatican article I wouldn't have even made the connection. Thanks POPE!
 
Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

Also why exactly is okay for the Pope to slate atheism to the entire world? If it had been done about any other group - Islam, Black people etc there would be outrage - but not when it's against atheists.
Well, we are talking about the same man that recently stated that all non-Catholics do not belong to a "Church". In effect, saying that all Protestants are errant rebellious people that aren't really a part of God's kingdom (and being a Protestant, I heartily say "PssshhhhhhhTHTHSTSHHHH!!!!"). As much respect as I had for the last Pope, I think the current one is starting to lapse back into the ages-old habit of splitting hairs where there aren't any to be split.

To answer (as quickly and succintly as I can) a couple points of 4Greg's (welcome, btw!): "Can't or won't"- the difference breaks down in the realm of belief and theology. There are instances of stubbornness and instances of covering up what ought not be covered up. There are also instances of closed-mindedness regarding the beliefs of others. BUT, there is also a point at which you either simply believe something or you don't, and if you believe it, then it follows that you can't celebrate (what you really see as) error in others. Quick examples would be that you are either a monotheist or a polytheist; you can't be both (trying to accept all gods as really being the same god under different names still leaves you as a monotheist). Or another example is that you either believe in an objective reality, or you don't.

Without getting too further off topic, the line of reasoning in general Christian thinking means that in celebrating another's religion (versus the individuals or cultures) is essentially celebrating that those people will go to Hell, which is both anti-Christian and inhuman. (I'm not talking here of assessing the relative merits and half-truths present in other religions, or about attempts to reconcile what can be reconciled, which has become something of a lost art among Christians these days, and in which case, isn't strictly a celebration of other religions.)

Okay, so that wasn't so short. And agreed on the "religion of tell me what to think", though time does tend to that in its own way, as you either have to adopt the beliefs for yourself or get rid of them entirely, as it becomes increasingly difficult to reconcile a real faith (not just the half-hearted variety which makes up rather a lot of people's faith) with real life without examining what you believe rather closely.

And on whether it's just a story, a work of fiction to be enjoyed- I agree that works ought to be approached without bias (or agenda), but this goes for both the reader and the writer. A writer that brings a strong agenda for his/her work will produce weak work (and think Pullman fits this instance). And a reader can't really understand a work without approaching it without bias, at least without as much bias as they can, since we all have natural biases which we couldn't get rid of if we tried.

Otherwise, I'm of the school that's never satisfied with a story being just a good story. I'm quite severe on fiction, because it can be so much more than just a story. Great fiction works on a number of levels beyond being merely a good yarn.

(And I'm not apologizing for being demanding.:D)
 
Could someone please tell me where the complaints of so many parents came from? There was this big upset over this movie about the concept of killing God.

I just watched it, and I saw nor heard any mention such an act. Did I miss something? Seemed like any other great fantasy story to me.

Also it seems like there is meant to be a sequel. Am I too assume that this idea of Lord Asriel killing God will be up and coming then?
 
Yes, it's the first of three movies. If you read the trilogy you'll see a lot more reference to god in the books than the films. I think the director decided to leave out the religious connotations in the movie, since some people are against it (and the killing of "god").


However, most of the god references come in the last book, and not so much the first and second (although book two has some).
 

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